Small Town Murder - #210 - A Secret In Every Hole - Hartland, Maine

Episode Date: February 11, 2021

This week, in Hartland, Maine, what seems like a simple missing person, turns out to be much more, after an unexpected visit to the local police station by a person with a wild story to tell sends everyone out on a hunt for a body. What they end up finding blows everybody's minds, including the town, the police, and probably even the dogs that assisted in the search. Things somehow gets even more crazy from there, as this unfolds into one of the oddest tales we've told! Along the way, we find out that not all of Maine has that Stephen King book charm, that you can only push people so far, and that thighs are apparently the most easily hidden body parts! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Heartland, Maine, a surprise visit from family convinces a woman to make a trip to the police station and inform

them that they need to start searching for body parts. Welcome to Small Town Murder. hello and welcome back to small town murder yay yay indeed jimmy yay indeed my name is james petra gallo i'm here with my co-host i'm'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another crazy, I don't even know what to call it, just crazy, crazy edition of Small Town Murder. We have a wild Valentine's Day adventure for you. It's for the lovers. It's for the lovers this week, exactly.

This one and Virginia. Yeah, Small Town Murder and Virginia, both for lovers. If you're not inside the United States, you have no idea. I doubt you get those commercials, but the rest of the United States gets those commercials. So anyway, if you haven't done it yet, quickly a little house cleaning. Please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts.

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so there's that and everything like that. And if you have not done it yet also, you want to get on Patreon. Oh, yeah. Our Patreon is cooking as always. We have all sorts of stuff. Our last Patreon episode we hope you enjoyed was the Love After Lockup season three. Yeah. Review of that, which is I just wanted to do a whole season on Love After Lockup.

I can't stop i i want to not stop talking about that forever so that was so much fun i just want fuck editing it just show it for what it is i don't need the editing just live stream it and i'll watch i'm in i don't care 24 7 just i'll watch them sleep what's happening on these fucking someone gonna stab somebody someone someone's gonna stab somebody i don't know and our next patreon also a lot of fun is going to be old west murders oh terrific so oh yeah we're gonna go and it's gonna be like 1870s 1880s there's a couple of little wyatt erp things oh terrific james gang thrown in there and then just a bunch of wild

crazy things that happened in the 1800s so that's a lot of fun we talk about tombstone and things like that a lot so right up my people are interested that is patreon.com slash crime and sports to get all of that and more lots of good stuff you get the whole back catalog you want to be on patreon that's where the action is patreon.com slash crime and sports plus you're going to be a producer so you get a shout out at the end of the show sure oh boy jimmy will mispronounce your name it'll be fantastic and if you just want to have good karma and be a producer as well and have your name mispronounced you can do that at paypal also using our email address crime and sports at gmail.com yes that said i think it's time for the disclaimer let's do it it's a comedy show it's a comedy there's murder yes horrible murder every time that's what makes the show interesting but on top of that it's not we're not going we're not being

gratuitous about it that's the thing no one's we're not celebrating how hilarious it is for someone to be murdered and dismembered that's not what's going on here it's all the crazy stuff that leads up to it yeah small towns who make fun i mean who's not from a small town everybody's from somewhere that sucks so we make fun of that we make fun of murderers sure because they deserve it absolutely so you know that's that's how this goes we go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the victims families because we're assholes but we're not scumbags there you have it that's how it works i think it's a nice balance and uh if you don't think so if you don't think that comedy should ever be with true crime,

then maybe this isn't for you. Show about the car. Tuck and roll. That's it. But for everybody else that wants to have a good time, I think it's time to sit back and shout. Shut up. Shut up and give me murder.

Let's do this, Jimmy. We got into that one. Yeah. Let's go on a trip, shall we? I'd love that. Let's do it. We are going this week. We're heading up to the Northeast, as far northeast as you can go in the states here.

We're going to Maine. King country. It's been so long. Yeah. It's beautiful up there. It is. It's a nice place. We're going to Heartland, Maine.

Okay. If you're going to pick a place that's not great, it's going to be this area. Oh, really? In Maine. Yeah. This is like a central, south central Maine. Oh. Not on the coast

or anything like that no no nothing like why would you that's the thing jimmy and this this place doesn't sound as you picture maine you're like oh that's so quite nice and white houses black rock beaches you hear about this and you go oh that sounds like a lot of the rest of the country that doesn't sound wonderful at all why would you go all the way up there and freeze for that? Doesn't make sense. So an hour and 40 to Portland, Maine, about 45 minutes over to Bangor. Okay. Oh, baby. And about two hours to Newry, Maine, which was our last main episode.

Really? Which was episode 125, June 26, 2019. My fuck. Which was just, I don't know know 20 years ago i think yeah and and you know 2020 times so long ago so this is in somerset county it's a big big town in terms of square mileage but there's a lot of kind of big plots of land and things sure 43 square miles pretty pretty large here. History of this town.

They have a couple of explanations of the town, of where the name came from. I always like to try to figure out where the hell it's... Because sometimes it's just... It got, like, bastardized from some other name. Yeah. And they just didn't care, which is always fun when that happens. So I like to find out.

Yeah, it doesn't matter anyway. Just say it how you want. They named it after somebody terrible. It was like, he ran a tavern and killed seven prostitutes and was convicted murderer but he was freed by his buddy who was the lieutenant governor of some weird thing like that and i'll be like so they named the town after him what what's a strange thing so uh two explanations uh have been advanced here one says that the old English word for deer, which would be heart, means heartland, like it's land of the deer, is what they're saying. Another is that the community is located in the heart of the hills.

Those are the two. The old English word for deer, which is an English word. Yes. What the fuck are they talking about? H-A-R-T, heart, which is deer. What? I don't know what they're talking what the fuck are they talking about h-a-r-t heart which is deer what i i don't know what they're talking what are they doing i'm sure there's something to that though someone's gonna tweet at us and say that we don't know so it doesn't make any sense not at all to us that makes no sense i'm sure it makes perfect linguistic sense to someone who's been to

school yeah for these things in england or anywhere really because with us it's nothing so we have no education on this matter whatsoever this first settled in about 1800 which is late yeah that's late that means that that the good stuff was taken right by 1800 the northeast was pretty much oh it was the coast yeah people people knew about it this this was like well i guess there's stuff over there that nobody wants so we'll go inland if they got here in seven and whenever uh early uh in the year like january february when did they land at plymouth rock i don't remember the exact month i'm just thinking like yeah if you get to maine and you're on the coast and it's cold and you get in 20 30 miles you probably go fuck it there's nothing

else there's nothing here we've seen the good stuff this is it yeah because it gets pretty barren oh boy does it i mean it gets yeah maine is not just just not it's that's all it is yeah maine is a coast and then canada right that's what it is basically it's a coast and then it's nova scotia from there enjoy newfoundland right america newfoundland states here so the uh it's first settled 1800 by james fuller and uh that's the guy's name i don't know the community had a tavern by 1811 they got that going yeah right away of course right away well the too cold this place is terrible we need to drink here who's cold as shit and i need something warm who's gonna sell us booze yeah you all right good it was known as the heartland house uh the area was settled in

1800 that's when people started coming it was first incorporated as warrentown in 1820 and then it changed its name for some reason who the hell knows why the area didn't get a library until 1903 okay so they had a tavern in 1811 and didn't choose to bring books into this scenario for another hundred years, basically. We have booze, I mean. Is it just populated by a bunch of whistlers? Sounds like us. I'm going to read the booze label.

That's enough reading for now. That's good. I'm exhausted. Yep. They didn't even give it a library. That was just when they got books and they just put it in the town hall. They just put books in the town hall. From 1935 to 1990, the library collection, because it's just this roving collection of books, can be found in a building that now houses a tannery outlet.

They didn't even give it its own library. Finally, 1991, I guess they gave it like a permanent, well, keep the books. We're going to keep them here. Took till 91. It's been 90 years. 1991. That's unbelievable.

We got a tavern and it took 100 years for us to get books. And then it took another 90 years for us to figure out where we're going to keep the books permanently. They got booze and then were too distracted until Michael Jordan was a champion. That's it. To put books in a building. To put books in a building. Isn't that amazing?

We shall not house the books until Will Smith has his own television show. Until the Fresh Prince heads westward, we shall not. We shan't house the books. From buckles on shoes to a taxi cab ride across america that's unbelievable that's an expensive taxi ride that's all i could ever think when i saw that good god a taxi is that the most efficient way of travel you can think of will even a train yeah something if you could afford to take a cab from billy to la you could have been fine i got a private jet. It's expensive.

Probably could have moved out of the hood in Philly. I mean, I assume that it was picked up on the other end by the Beverly Hills family. I would hope so. You pay your tab. You've got a butler. That's what I mean. I figured they were picking up the tab. That's why they sent him in a cab.

I pictured the mother like, they want to be fancy out there, then fine. I'll send him out there in a cab and they can pay for it take that i figured that was the mom's point of view like they live in bel air they'll be fine think you're so big and fancy they'll take care of it afford a 3 000 mile cab ride enjoy no library so wool mills uh began operating in 1862 when they made the blue material for soldiers uniforms oh so it's just union pumping out blue wool to brilliant yeah not bad the tannery owned by irving tanning company has been there forever so there you go and it was the that's where the that's where the it's now where the library was okay so instead of that they're like let's have animal shit in here weird making saddles found some reviews of this town once again i must give a

review disclaimer these are not our reviews these are what others have said this is not our opinion and posted never been there what we're doing is reading them so it's correct this is the equivalent of somebody reading a score of the football game. Right. And if your team didn't win, you shouldn't be mad at the person who told you the score. Right. Be mad at your quarterback. So that's what we're saying here. Reviews of this town.

Three stars for this. They're all pretty decent. Hartford is a small town. Heartland. Heartland. Hartland. Heartland is a small town with access to stores and community resources with friends friendly townspeople that sounds like a nightmare yeah it houses about 1800 town folk townsfolk so there's towns people

town folk what year is this i feel like this is like the the land behind mr rogers where the king pops out what the hell is going on here and he's even as a tannery to tan the hides into leather thank you for making that clear is that what they do geez this person sounds like a nightmare don't they this is a person that gives a yelp review but no opinion just i went there and i ate that yeah thanks i went there great arrived at this time it was my ladies ordered this my husband got a promotion that day and we decided that it was you know my thanks for including this my wife was very excited with her business launch so we decided to go to the and then there's no just this is what we ate thanks no conclusion had a burger the town does not does slow down around 8 p.m and for those that like the quiet nightlife this is

the place wait what's a quiet nightlife? I know. That's what I mean. I think they mean like a nice quiet, like at home. But nightlife. In my house. Yeah. Nightlife is a specific term. It is.

Yeah. That person's a nightmare. They don't get it. They don't get anything. Three stars. Heartland has its ups and downs, its advantages and disadvantages, and its pros and cons. Yeah. Thanks for the- you mean like everywhere

bowl full of cliches that was great and way to go out on a limb you fucking jerk really right but i have lived in this town for years and i'm all and i'm always thinking of my safety but i also but also i don't know where else i'd rather live. I don't like this guy. This person, if you saw the way it's written, too, it's a nightmare. There's no, I don't trust the schools here. One star is this one. Now we're into the negative. Okay. Those were the positive ones, by the way.

That was the best thing I've ever offered. Some good, some bad. Here's one. Lots of drugs. All right. Lots of stealing. Lots of rats. Wow. do they mean literal rats or this like some mob guy going there's lots of rats in this town they're all a bunch of rats i tell

you too many drugs too much stealing too much drugs they're all turns their mind to mush they're a bunch of rats these these fucking bums in this town a bunch of rats yeah uh no gas station very untrustworthy people okay these are all one these are all sentences by the way lots of drugs lots of stealing lots of rats no gas station very untrustworthy people it's a good list i'd leave but if you go back to a couple sentences ago where there's no gas station that's the thing i'm stuck uh lots of untrustworthy people one restaurant with pretty bad food but it's an absolutely amazing place to become a drug dealer or use it amazing it's a wonderland for that it's a wonderland dealing or using that is i hope that they get a job somewhere just reviewing shit because that

was terrific that's a good that's a good it's very succinct yeah i'll enjoy that a lot they should definitely do the chamber of commerce work for this town, I believe. Here we go. One star, again, would like to see those whom use substances get help instead of being on the streets at night screaming and causing people to wake up. Very specific issue. People scream outside this person's house and that's their man. And for them, that's the whole world. But everyone else is like, what?

Just because Bob is outside their house screaming, there's 1,800 people. So there's not a lot of screamers, I imagine. There's one guy screaming, and they happen to be outside this guy's house. This is why these reviews are hilarious. They're so personal. Maybe get some double-pane windows. Get something. Just shut up!

I don't know. try that for a minute that works sometimes stop opening your window and screaming get some help yeah there you go someone help bob uh many people do not like to stay away from home for fear their home will be broken into oh good lord this sounds like you can't even leave there's rats no gas stations can't trust anybody one restaurant restaurant, and the food sucks, and it shuts down at 8 o'clock anyway, so who cares? And don't go out to the restaurant anyway, number one, because the food's bad, but number two, while you're gone, people will pillage your house.

All your shit disappears. This sounds like a nightmare. You go out the front, they come in the back. What a terrible place. Start looting. If you just went on those four reviews you'd go this place is awful and i never want to go here or i want to go and watch yeah this sounds awesome to see like yeah like a drone camera above the town let's just watch the insist guy screaming yeah they just

went to the store quick so a bunch of marauding group of crackheads are stealing their shit i don't know what's happening somebody truman show heartland it sounds great this place is a nightmare they've had pretty much the same amount of people almost since 1900. Really? Not much changes around these parts, put it that way. It's not a lot of change going on from what it sounds like. Current population, 1,676 people. Tiny.

Tiny, down about 7% since 1990. So people are trickling away quickly and uh more males than females by a long shot which is there's like 54 percent male which is very strange because the median age is 48 which is a lot higher than regular yeah so usually when it's all older people you get way more females i don't know what i don't know what's happening in this town but maybe the ladies are the ones that are leaving the women die first or they i don't know they they happening in this town. Maybe the ladies are the ones that are leaving. The women die first, or they had first dibs at the gas. I don't know what happened.

The rest of the stats are pretty similar. Married is 50-50, which is pretty normal. Nothing out of whack there. Race of this town is quite main. 98.5% white. Really? Pretty white. May as well be a hundred that's very white well 0.0 percent black yeah it's not that no no black people 0.0 percent asian what

0.9 percent native american 0.4 percent hispanic 0.4 fascinating and 0.2% two or more races. So it is white. Holy shit, white. This is very white. It's a very white town. Not sure. I couldn't find the religion in here. It was weird. It was like this town was hard to find stats on.

They're hiding in this place. I don't know what it is. They're hiding because, well, obviously, they can't leave. If someone knocks on the door to ask them a question, they're like, don't answer it. Good God. They're going to steal everything. Jesus. It them a question they're like don't answer it good god they're gonna steal everything jesus it's just bob yelling again don't don't answer it's the census man they want stats i don't know fuck that podcast guy we're not giving them shit they're getting nothing hide uh who knows who's behind them median household income here though

it's usually about 57 000 in the rest of the country. Here, $31,331. So pretty low for household income. Cost of living isn't that bad here, though. $100 is average, regular. And as we know, toward the coast, Maine is very expensive. It gets there. It gets there. But surprise, I mean, forever. It's not that bad.

No. It's for a coast. It's prohibitively cold there. Summer on the Maine coast is like, ooh, it warm up to 58 today it's not it's not swimming one no even if you got in the ocean which i have there what the fuck is that water it's like it's just needles it's like windbreaker summer that's you wear a jacket in the summer type of august in maine is still painful water it's cold yeah it's cold so great hurts. It's cold. It's great. It's tough. So the overall cost of living is 76.1 here. So that's pretty under the 100.

Housing, though, is very low. 34.7 for housing. Really? Yeah. Median home cost 80,300 bucks. Oh, but... It's cheap. What are these homes, James?

Well, let's find out. I'm so curious. Yeah. More than half the houses are worth less than $100,000. What? That says a lot right there. If we've convinced you, obviously, what else are you going to do with yourself than come here? I am riveted.

We have for you the Heartland, Maine Real Estate Report. Average two-bedroom rental here is about $6 a month which is less than the average houses are 100 grand buy a house yeah i found and here we go i found a two-bedroom two-bath yeah 1456 square feet doable the house isn't great i mean it needs some updating and shit like that but it's it's livable you can live in it it's, and it's on 13.2 acres. Holy shit. Shitload of land, $64,900. Get the fuck out of here.

1,500 square feet. I mean, you could remodel that. Why would you rent? 13 acres. That's unbelievable. You could build another house behind you. Who knows? I found a five-bedroom, two-bath, 2,500 square foot, not run down.

Very nice. This amazing, huge, beautiful porch that runs all the way in front and curves around. And it's gorgeous, this porch. Amazing. $164,900. Five bedrooms. Five bedrooms. It's on over an acre.

Wow. This is great. And then I found a three bedroom, two bath. It's only 1,072 square feet. The house is okay, but it's only 1,072 square feet. The house is okay, but it's on 9.22 acres and it's got like this big front yard and where like the street would be is instead water because you're right on a lake. So it's, yeah, that's where you are. It's rad.

Yeah. Like you just go right out in there. You can go right out in your yard and there's a lake. You can get your boat launch. Put your walleye out. It's ridiculous. Yeah. $599,900 for that.

But I mean, this, it's. You got nine acres in it. Yeah. And it's location. You got water. You could have a resort. You could make a resort there if you wanted to. Like, it's gorgeous.

Things to do in this wonderful, wonderful place. I found there's not a lot to do. No. I found there's a main lot to do no i found there's a main academy of country music what that i found that seems very no it seems really specific right main academy of country music is there country music in maine i mean there's it's hickey up there i guess but i mean it's not that i mean it's not country it's more like folky like yeah flannel shirt and a lobster roll kind of a it's not a luke bryan no it's not a nashville or south

carolina country dust anywhere no it's not a dusty type of no it's moist and cold yeah it's weird and i i mean where it is too this is uh i don't know if this even took place but it was on march 22nd 2020 it was called the cabin fever show and it was at the irving tanning irving tanning community center okay so apparently there's a community center built around the tannery which is so jacked about that very strange it's like is this deadwood where are we uh and it's uh yeah there's that. So I don't even know what the hell happened. Somerset County Jam Fest is another one.

Outdoor music festivals with several bands performing across three days at Spacious Freedom Field. Wow. Great. The festival features guest speakers, open mics between performances. Nope. And a bouncy house. speakers open mics between performances nope and a bouncy house so if you are looking for the most irritating place to go in the world it would be open mics with bouncy houses in the background there's also a horseshoe tournament so don't worry about that we got you covered there

and uh camping and bonfires as well oh boy this is why they like country music because they like to do country things they like to go outside i mean that they like doing the shit that's in country music yeah songs in the lyrics if you go outside that doesn't mean you have to listen to shit music while you do it i don't know why that's and i'm not saying at all country shit i don't like it but the vast majority james is oh i that's how it hits my ear but i don't know how other people the other people seem to enjoy i don't get it either you seem to like a lot of it i like a lot a specific type i think it sure is for you here uh now also there is and this is all these like cold weather places have shit like this the somerset snow fest okay it's i guess if it's gonna be that cold for that long

as well embrace it for yeah you can't just go well we're not doing anything for eight months yeah out of the year you gotta go join them kind of thing yeah i guess we'll have a snow fest you know instead of being pissed about it what if we smiled about what if we just did it and then maybe it'll be fun let's have like a festival about everybody else in the country seems to be really happy when it snows. Yeah, except for us because it snows constantly. It's coordinated by, who cares, Somerset Snowfest is a celebration of all things winter. Yay.

Activities including a box sled race, dog sled rides, skating, tubing, and the Northeast's only equestrian ski jorning competition what the fuck is that they put equestrian ski jorning they don't put skis on fucking is that a ski on a horse they don't do that right i just pictured the horses doing like cross-country skiing yeah is that what it is are they making like real rocking horses then like well well skis no jorning ski jorning with a j that seems one word oh ski jorning not oh not jorning ski jorning do you have like the horse pull you on skis i i maybe it runs how do you steer the horse from that oh i don't you do. I think you're pretty much like you're water skiing. You're at the mercy of whoever's in control.

A fishing pole with like an apple on the end of it. Just leave the horse. I don't know if there's like a rain. You can this way. That sounds horrifying. It says this is a not to be missed winter festival. I guess so. In the heart of the beautiful Kennebec River Valley.

Wow. Okay, then. Crime rate in this town of the beautiful Kennebec River Valley. Wow. Okay, then. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in, obviously. Property crime is actually a little bit under the average. So everyone's like, you can't even leave your house. Apparently, there's one bad street with screaming people and robberies. The rest of it, it's pretty close to average. So I don't know.

Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is less than it's under half of the average. So it's pretty safe. Incredibly safe. Sounds like a little safe place. And everyone is complaining pretty hard about it. Like I said, they're very personal. Those reviews are very personal, which I like to know people's beefs.

Yeah. So that said, with a safe little town where you could buy oh boy acreage for 65 000 let's talk about a murder a valentine's day murder this is going to be wonderful didn't happen on valentine's day but i feel it's a story that needs to be told on a holiday for lovers i feel like why not uh let's get into this here let's talk about a a couple, a married couple. We'll go back to 1999 and catch up with this married couple. All right. They're an older couple, actually. A little older than we usually cover, but they're active, let's just say, in terms of murder.

So, you know, why not? We're going to talk about Vela and Jean Gogan. Vela is the lady and gene is the fella here uh gene is 62 years old in 1999 and vela is 55 years old in 1999 and they're a couple they're the married couple they've been married for 37 years my words of 1999 he got himself a young one yeah she was right out of the right out of high school or you know wherever she was right out of high school or wherever. She was right out of into adulthood. Right out of childhood is the better way to put it. And he'd been through enough.

Yeah, exactly. He was in his 30s. Well, he's seven years older. Is that seven? Yeah, he's 25. In my head, I had like 17. Yeah, 25 and 18, I think they were roughly when they got married. Mostly because I'm terrible at math.

Well, math, it's on the fly. You never know. And you're still trying to figure out what the hell ski joring is i feel like so that's a do they put the ski right on the horse or do you have the skis which one is do they call it that because ski horse sounds too much like seahorse ski joring though i don't know i don't know what that is equestrian ski joring and so obviously people are gonna we're gonna know this by the end of the show so honest please don't show us oh this is ski joring and so obviously people are gonna we're gonna know this by the end of the show so honest please don't show us oh this is ski jarring it's more fun to just make it up as we go my sister ski jorn for she's a gold medal you know what i mean we're gonna have all here's pictures of we get it people do it but i don't know what it is now and that's the problem so

vela and jean here uh married 37 years Now, Vela has had a tough upbringing. She did not come up easy. And a lot of times, I mean, when they got married was still in the times when you got kind of, ladies wanted to get married as quick as possible in the 60s. That was what they were told was, well, you got to be married by the time you're 20 or so. You're going to shrivel up. Nobody will want you. Nobody's going to want you anymore.

They're going to think, what's wrong with you? Nobody else has you. Yeah, so that was what it was. You're going to be an old maid. Well, better go to secretarial school. You're all dried up. What are you, 21? You're going to be 25 and dusty.

Good Lord. Jesus. Yeah. And when you think about it too she had a bad childhood and a lot of times people have bad childhoods will do anything to get out of it and back in the day the number one easiest thing to do to get out of your home if you were a young lady was to get married there it is the hell out of there find somebody and you're at least out of that house problem is if you come up in a shit house and you're leaving out of some sense of desperation

to get out of it, a lot of times you don't end up with the best person because your example has been terrible. And even subconsciously, someone who seems nice, there's something bad in them that you can see somewhere subconsciously and you end up with them. Usually it's just something about them makes them an option for good or good or bad for good or bad but then you run with it there's

something that our brains do that attract us to things that are terrible be just to repeat the patterns also it's of it we have yet to figure out why what benefit that is because your brain always does things to benefit you and that's one thing that it does that has no benefit to you whatsoever it's just horrible and painful yeah and it just everybody's there's also a point that that in human uh just just human just our inner what we do it's inside us it's our it's in our makeup to want to get into a situation where you're an underdog just to be like i'll show everybody yeah but 99 percent of the time it ends badly yeah it's true but like evolutionarily why would your brain do

that because your brain has developed over time to to be better for you like it blocks certain things out that are bad and blah but the thing of like i'm gonna seek out subconsciously right the source of trauma and repeat it over and over again is that in our chemical makeup or is that in our culture it's got to be it's it's in your brain you don't even know what why you're doing it because you do it like subconsciously and we've yet to figure out what the benefit of that of like what is why does your brain do that i'd love to know that that's my number one psychological mystery. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife.

Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. In May of 1980 near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to

the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. What evolutionary purpose does this serve to make your brain better? I don't get it. But then why do we love watching? Is it just because we love watching somebody that doesn't necessarily think they they deserve it and

win you know what i mean we just want to watch people win i suppose we don't because we love making people lose on purpose i mean we love piling on somebody for one little mistake and ruining everything that's that happens a lot yeah i don't know what i don't know what our i don't know what the what the goal there is but vela came up in a tough household. Her house was just full of violence. Her father was a violent alcoholic, very bad person. To put it this way, this is a story from her childhood. I'll give one anecdote that will sum it all up rather than just chronicle years of terribleness. Here's one incident that says it all.

She's 11 years old okay so 11 year old girl is a vulnerable age obviously for anybody and that's a that's a tough time biting down well uh her father was beating her mother unmercifully unmercifully to the point of where vella was scared that he was going to kill her it was just an unmercifully to the point of where vella was scared that he was going to kill her it was just an unmerciful beating like sitting on her chest beating the shit out of her so vella at 11 years old to try to save her mother's life picked up a picked up a pistol hell yeah from his nightstand and beat him over the head with it until she knocked him out and the option i was expecting the pistol broke into a bit him beat him so the head with it until she knocked him out. Not the option I was expecting. The pistol broke into a...

Beat him so hard she broke the pistol into pieces. At 11. Beat him until the pistol broke. That's a strong 11-year-old. Like Pesci in Goodfellas. With Billy Bats. Like that's how... Wow.

That's, you know what I mean? Imagine that scene. Imagine the horror of that scene for an 11-year-old girl. Your mother being beaten to the point of, oh, my God, is she going to get killed? Right. She needs someone to step in. And it's got to be an 11-year-old. I better beat my father unconscious with a fucking pistol because that's all I can do.

And I'll do it. So that's harrowing right there. So that sums it all up. That's the only real tale we need to tell from her childhood to give you a really good insight. It's pretty amazing as an 11-year-old to know, to get to that option, too, where it's like you grab a gun and you're like, well, I can shoot this. Or this thing's heavy as fuck. I think that's what she said. And who knows if she's seen him pistol-lip somebody before.

Or with the mother or something else. I i mean it's a big heavy metal object yeah she might have looked around and said what's heavy right that's heavy i mean shit and if he turns around i can always shoot him i guess there's that there's that also this doesn't work there's another option with this thing yeah i mean but also i mean that's the the for an 11 year old to have the strength to do that though she must have really summoned up some serious oomph behind her deep doug yeah you gotta dig deep to to to beat a grown man unconscious as an 11 year old girl if anything she's good in the clutch yeah she's good in the clutch and who knows this is october how drunk he was too i'm sure and you know, that also helps, I'm sure.

But still, very much a horrible childhood coming up. Awful. So she meets Gene here at a young age and gets married and gets the hell out of that household and probably never looked back, I would imagine, with that sort of thing. I mean, back then, imagine with that sort of thing i mean that's the back then too that's kind of what you did they got married in the early 60s so it was just get the hell out of here and leave it all in a dust cloud behind us so they um they they over the years they build a life together they're not they're an odd couple they're not they're odd

birds is the way kind of everybody puts personalities clash no they're just kind of weird they kind of stick to themselves personalities get along they get along fine well sort of as we'll talk about for a little while they seem to to the outside world when they're they do everything together they're always together but they also have their problems internally that the neighbors do see because police show up. So generally, when the cops show up, people notice. Cops pull up in front of someone's house in your neighborhood. Everybody looks out at what's going on down there.

Somebody going to get arrested? My neighbor, when I moved in, he goes, you got a wife or kids or anything? I'm like, no, just kids that will be here every other weekend. He's like, oh, good. Last house, the last people people lived here was a lot of dv a lot of dv and i was like oh jesus what he's like oh domestic violence he's like the cops were here all the time no there will not be any of that sorry to inconvenience you i mean a lot of dv a lot what hey that's a very odd way of saying it's a very odd way of saying it like they left all sorts of shit out in their yard like that's what it sounded like that's a fucking

unbelievable very empathetic yeah sir you're really a president of the hy telling me that very nice very empathetic a lot of wow a lot of dv that's nice i mean it was enough i had to shut my blinds yeah i really did had to shut my blinds. I really did. So annoying. Shut my blinds, put my earphones in, listen to an audio book, because I couldn't handle hearing. You know, cop lights flicker.

It's like a strobe. And on the back of your eyelids when you're trying to sleep, it's a real nightmare. Wow. Real empathetic towards the lady that lived there. That's what I mean. They would just fucking get it together i mean jesus keep it quiet good god thanks jerks thanks i'm gonna not talk to you anymore appreciate you you sound like an asshole see you at the meeting next month wow avoid that can you imagine going to an hoa meeting no i wouldn't do that i don't want anything to do with that no no no this they stick together they stay apart from people of gogan's which i i appreciate

that i appreciate that i really do i like your style way to keep to yourself gogan's keep to yourself don't get all involved in the in the hoa and everything like that vella by the by the way over the years uh she makes a living here and there as a butcher's assistant. So that's what she does. So Vela will get down and dirty. Sure. She'll chop up a side of beef and whatever. So that's handy to have around the house.

Absolutely. You can get big cuts and they know how to hook it up. Yeah. You can save a lot of money. Take the meat off the bone and not lose a lot. Oh, yeah. It's nice. Oh, yeah.

Certain things that butchers can do make everything better so you that's good it's good to have around the house tell you i don't like that ribbon of fat on the back of a of a new york strip i'd rather it not be there if you could do that and not lose it thing is yeah it's like i don't like that part's good but then the part attached to the right you're like well this isn't this is no good this is bad i just paid 17 per weight for that unlike the ribeye which then the fat's attached to it you don't have to cut that strip however much that shit is i just paid for that yeah what i'm saying here so uh over the years though there's been problems between vella and gene as well uh the neighbors have talked about some reports of abuse here and there. Okay.

And over 37 years, the police have been there quite a few times, which is bad, obviously. We're talking about 1999. the sheriff's department was called to the house to by by vela as like a uh protection thing to stand by while she gathered her shit and left yeah basically she said she was afraid that gene wasn't going to let her leave and was going to hurt her while she was gathering her shit she wanted to get out of there so yeah sheriff's department had to come and wait stand by right she gathered her shit which good for her it's better than dying in the house so she gathered her shit and left but she ended up going back because gene has an illness he has a heart condition and shit like that so she ended up going back because he's ill oh no so that's what ended up happening i don't know if she thought well i mean he's

he's um you know he's older and sick now so he's going to be not as physically uh aggressive i don't know what her thought process was or if it was just her her pattern of abuse since you seek it out and you keep going back and i you know it's one of those things who knows but i feel terrible that she didn't stay away the records show that the main police and a somerset county deputy were called to the home four times in the last couple years okay and so it's been three times with the sheriff's department one time with the state police so it's been that you have four times in a couple years it's that's a lot it's a bit much it's a lot of police interaction it's it's a lot of dv as your

neighbor would say every six months we get some dv that's too much too much any is too much and every six months is way over the line here so it's been uh and these are one time one of these times it was actually gene that called oh which was strange uh because the other times it was vela calling obviously so i don't know if that was gene like preemptively calling because he knew up i hit her she's gonna call the cops i better call the cops i'm not sure what the if i get him here they're on my side yeah that's what i mean i don't know if he thought that's what it was well whoever calls him is right i don't know if he thought that's what it was like which isn't isn't that's not the way it works at all i mean if you're abusive you can't just call the cops they come over well i mean he called so he must have had

a reason to hit you i don't think that's ever been said, I hope. Well, he called, so he's got two points. Now your side. That's what I mean. Let's hear it. That's not how this works at all. Like a score? No, I don't think that's how it works.

A score wins, the other guy goes to jail. Yeah, no, no. So she has told the cops, too, that she feels her life is in danger and things like that. But for some reason, there's never been an arrest out of this situation. Pretty much the cops. I don't know because it's rural Maine in the 90s. But the cops would just show up and go, all right, you guys are right now. Okay.

And then they leave. Basically, it was no. Oh, that's wild. Yeah. I don't know what. I guess I don't know if there was no like not enough violence for it. I think any violence is too much. So I don't know what, I guess, I don't know if there was no, like, not enough violence for it. I think any violence is too much. So, I don't know what the story, what I meant for them to, like, step in.

Like, that doesn't seem like. It's pretty low for some vellum gene. Doesn't seem worth a pair of handcuffs, I don't think, but maybe a stern talking to. Yeah. That's not how this should be going down at all. So, either way, that's how it works. There's a neighbor named Margaret Dunn who sounds like, everyone has a neighbor named Margaret Dunn, I feel like. Look through your neighborhood.

Someone's named Margaret Dunn. She lives near the Goggins. She described them as, quote, neighborly. Yep. What is that? Fuck. What does neighborly mean? Margaret, dig deeper.

Seriously, get a better adjective. What is neighborly? They were there and didn't what didn't what kill your pets when they went out in the yard to shit what what did they do or not do right what is neighborly they've got brown sugar on hand that's what i exactly that's neighborly just you wave at them they're neighborly on the way from the house to the car give you a little wave yeah that's neighborly right there so i don't know what it is so they said they weren't her close friends though they weren't buddies it was just they were you know the neighbors when i see them yeah everybody when people live in the same neighborhood for 30 years you give a little there you go yeah a little there we are stupid wave i acknowledge you the dentist i know you are here i am and

then there's me doing the dentist and always sunny wave it's more like a stiff arm no we're not doing this it's not happening it's like a leave me be the gay disapproval you know i mean like the it's all you put your hand out and bobble your head that's kind of you yeah yeah that's no nope sans the bobble it's just not happening it's the heisman minus holding the ball it's a stiff arm car keys in one hand instead of a football it's car keys and a stiff arm on my way to my car not looking at you not talking to you happening sir leave me alone oh god i hate that i hate that way that you see anybody out there like oh they're gonna see me in a way hi we have to talk now hi yeah hello i see you great hi there you are yeah jesus fucking christ i can't get enough of it though oh

my god i love you know sometimes it's nice to talk to a neighbor just to know my life's better than yours sir i guess sometimes it reminds me it's it could be worse. I get like Omega Man fantasies or whatever it is. I am legend sitting there like, please, God, evaporate. I got no grass. The guy next to me is out there seeding his lawn. I'm just like, it could be so much worse. Look at you. I could have a job to be doing right now.

Yeah, look at this. I could have to water some shit. Nope. I can't do it with these people poor bastard my next door neighbors for the two years i've lived here have this man has never gone inside it's always out he's never gone inside have you ever come over and not seen him out there he's always out there and sometimes he has uh somebody else out there with him oh absolutely he's always in his garage sanding something.

He has sanded and cut enough things where he could have built a house twice the size of his current home with the wood that he's used. There's no way that he's doing anything. He hates his family and he's hiding out there and he just, he buys wood

to make sanding noise. Just sands it all into sawdust. That way his wife opens the door and she hears machinery going off. She's like, he's busy in there doing something. He hates his family and it's clear. And I want to tell him, kill yourself, please. I beg you. Or move away.

Get a divorce. Do something. Because I can't fucking look at you anymore in your driveway all the time. He would have brand new cabinets if he didn't have knee-deep sawdust in his garage. That's what I picture. He just takes wood and chops it to pieces and then sands it to nothing. That's what he's doing. He's keeping Home Depot going.

When are you coming to bed? This door's almost gone. Oh, it's a lot. What are you building out there anyway? It's going to be beautiful. Don't worry about it. You've been building it for 12 years, honey. I don't understand.

I'm just going to fill the garage in sawdust and drown myself in it never never goes inside so that's why i picture when i picture a neighbor waving so anyway how are you i hate me hi my life is miserable hello so uh margaret over here she said they quote mainly kept to themselves, which is pretty clear. Ah, in Maine, mainly. Mainly. Mainly, keep to ourselves. Mainly, keep to ourselves. Mainers keeping to themselves.

And they also, they keep to themselves except for the police interaction, which is obviously they have to talk to others. And Gene Gogan, the husband, would frequently walk up the road to visit with dunn's husband and son so margaret didn't really hang out with gene but apparently or with vela yeah but apparently gene walked around was more kind of the more social of the two talk to the husband and son i mean it's all a bunch of uh this is very rural this area this is all like there's like logging roads and shit here so when you're talking about logging roads that's rural shit so they're um it's i they're probably talking about hunting and fishing gene and uh gene and vela are both kind of avid hunters and fishers

okay the fishermen and hunters so who knows if they're talking about where the trout are biting or who the hell knows what they're doing. Where the herd's running. Where the herd's running. Where the, you know, where you, I don't know. So anyway, they said that Gogan here, Gia Vela, had gone to a woman's shelter three or four different times on her own. Oh, that's bad. In addition to that, this is not corresponding with the police coming either. This is in other times she just left and went to a woman's shelter. Without a police call.

Exactly. So three or four times, but always returned because Jean's health was never good. And so she felt bad. And the neighbor said, quote, she really did love Jean. Well, so she always kept coming back. And there's no. I mean, and granted, domestic violence is cyclical where you have the cool-off honeymoon period, all that shit.

But this probably makes that cycle much more frequent because he could be pissed and then have some heart event and all of a sudden you're back into the healing. Yeah, exactly. It's not even that... You don't run out the cycle. There's no... It's not a natural thing where this is like

you artificially keep going back to it. And it seems to be like, this is what they do. They've been together for 37 years. So whatever terrible pattern that's horrible that they need to get out of and that she needs to really run away from, they're stuck in it. It's because of this. It's just this. Yeah.

It's a, it's a pattern. So, um, yeah, several neighbors just said the same thing. They're neighborly. They kept to themselves. We don't know. They said that another neighbor said that they had heard Gene threatened to kill his wife. This was outdoors this happened in front of neighbors that, wow, not only kill his wife his wife but announced this is a guy losing it in the front yard yeah he was going to kill his wife the family dog as well oh my and then burn the

house down and then kill himself in the front yard good lord in the blaze of the fucking houses as it was burning sparing nobody all of our shit and your and the dog's corpses. I'll be out here and blow my brains out on the front yard. That's a scary proclamation, right? Because that's not even a person that has any. This is a sick older guy, too. Who the hell care? He's at the end of his rope.

I mean, that's that's not that's something to take seriously. More so. You got to think it to say it. You know what I'm saying? That's I mean, I wouldn't get there. And if he's abusive, that's something you want to take seriously there. you got to think it to say it you know what i'm saying that's what i mean i wouldn't get there and if he's abusive that's something you want to take seriously there and uh it's wild um the one neighbor said quote she had tried to leave and had always come back he was all she knew and uh and she in a way really depended on him no matter how bad the abuse was his abuse had become much worse over the past couple of years

and had really escalated up into 1999. So it's gotten worse. And it seems like the sicker he gets, and this is what other people said too, the sicker he gets, the more abusive he is. So I don't know what the psychology of that is, if he feels weaker, so he feels like he needs to assert himself

and dominance over this other person more. Frustration yeah it's not fixing and taking that out on her there could be a million there's a lot of things clearly though this is a guy who will has figured out that his wife is an avenue and a vessel to take out his physical his frustrations and his aggression physically upon it's that seems to be the pattern it's gotten worse as things have gotten worse for him so um yeah the other thing was uh this was uh one of the neighbors called him a man of explore of an explosive nature who was prone to publicly exhibiting rage against her my word so that's you know bad review it's a bad review i would say as far as town reviews go that would be a bad if you heard that you go jesus i don't be around that

publicly exhibiting rage that sounds rough and a publicly exhibiting rage i would assume you could classify screaming in the yard that you're gonna kill her the dog yeah burn the house down and blow your brains out right as it as the flames flicker flicker skyward right i mean that's a crazy proclamation i would say yeah that all of that's a explosive nature prone to publicly exhibiting rage true true yeah check check i would say on that oh boy so it's weird um now october 3rd 1999 let's go specifically to that um october 3rd 1999 her sister vela's sister carlene pelletier uh comes over the house unexpectedly stops by the house which is extremely weird she has not they've seen each other about four times in the last 30 years. Okay.

Literally four times in 30 years. She just stops by the house just to say hi out of the blue. Doesn't unannounced. She stops by on October 3rd, 1999. She stops by. Jean isn't home. And, you know, they talk and she's like, where the hell is Jean? Anyway, what's going on here? And Vela says he hasn't been home in a couple days.

I don't know. He left. He's gone. And she was like, well, how long has he been gone for? She's like, I don't know. He left on the 1st. So this is day three of him not being here. So she's like, are you concerned?

He just disappeared. I haven't been here but four times in 30 years. Is it weird that he hasn't been? is it normal for your husband to go missing and you're like i don't know he's gone for some days is it weird that somebody that's been here four times in 30 years is here right now and he's not is that weird is that strange right is that weird this week i've been in this house more than he has is that weird you know what my my gauge for weird is really it's in a bad place right now i'm not sure exactly what's weird anymore so i'm gonna need we're gonna need where's margaret

margaret can you come over here from the neighbors please come over here and uh try and tell us what's strange because we've really lost our fucking minds so yeah they're they the sister's like well you're mate should you look for him like he's a like a 62 year old man with a heart condition and i mean you're saying he went out and now he's not here he could be in the woods dead somewhere he should probably maybe look into this sure possibly and fella was like i mean i guess like for her she's probably like i hope so i figured if i don't say anything fingers crossed maybe he just won't come home. I feel like is what Vela's trying to portray here.

I mean, maybe. Right now, it's just like a Memorial Day weekend, and I'm hoping that Tuesday doesn't come around. That's what I'm hoping for. That's what it is. Let's extend this week. Maybe a snow day? Yeah. Maybe a little snow.

If he comes home tomorrow, everything's fucked. So, no. Nope. a snow day yeah yeah maybe it'll snow if he comes home tomorrow everything's fucked so yeah no nope so carlene convinces vela you need to go to the police and report him missing you can't just have a you can't he can't just be gone for weeks so how long are you gonna let this go for yeah let's go to the police and she's got to be thinking how weird has my sister gotten yeah i haven't seen her in years i stopped by her husband's missing for days and she's just like i don't know what the hell is happening dude that's why i haven't been around this much in 30 years this is crazy so it's a strange

scenario they show up at the police station uh carlene's like you know she'd like to tell you something right you know i don't know it's her husband i guess and initially they didn't know they were like he just disappeared and she said he left on the first where'd he go i don't know yeah where'd he say he was gonna go didn't say didn't ask it was just like he just left yeah and the and the police know who they are sure they know the history and they probably assume that vel is probably happy he's gone and probably not real concerned with when he's coming home. It's one of those things. So I feel like they're all like, you know, they almost want to go.

Let's hope fingers crossed that he's fingers crossed. He stays gone, I think, is what the cops were thinking for. So people always describe them as very private. it a lot of the neighbors though too and the police even that knew them said that they seemed to enjoy each other's company most of the time when they weren't having you know knock down drag out fights yeah when yeah when gene wasn't chasing her around and or whatever else they enjoyed a lot of outdoor activities together they did they hunted and fished together and did like we outdoor shit together very cool out in the woods and stuff so they seemed to get along doing that but then they'd come home and then the fucking state police would show up an hour later so it's a a weird thing um the uh one neighbor also at this point because the cops when they're

looking for him they go around they ask neighbors you seen this guy at all and they described him another neighbor to the police as a reclusive and domineering man, Gene. So, again, bad reviews. Gene's not getting a lot of good reviews. He's not. From friends, police, neighbors, and wives and in-laws. He is a rotten tomato. He doesn't seem wonderful.

Yeah, he's definitely not the freshest right now. He's at about 8%, I would say. He's doing bad so um they have a uh their house is kind of a kind of a shitty little house it's not a great house but i mean like we said most of the houses here are worth under 100 grand now yeah so it's not there are no extravagant mansions in heartland it's just not the way it works so uh they go and they're looking into his disappearance. They put police tape around the house and everything because they're like, we got to check what if he left a clue.

Who knows? He just seems to have disappeared into thin air. It's about five o'clock on a Sunday is when they report him missing. And it starts from there. So it's a Sunday evening. So you have limited time to start that night yeah uh according to vela he was last seen friday afternoon uh and a neighbor saw him returning from hunting friday afternoon like walking back and that's when they said they saw him last vela said she saw him when he left that morning it's the last time she saw him the neighbor said they saw

him kind of returning from hunting but not at his house but just near there obviously on his way back from the hunting grounds right wherever the hell those are so anyway that's that's what's going on he's reported missing they're looking for him uh by the way the uh it's on athens road and routes 43 and 151 what i don't know where the hell that is but if you're a local main person and you want to know the exact area this is it's a very bizarre description that's where it is yeah uh home on on the athens road routes 43 and 151 apparently that's like where the neighborhood is it's near that crossroads so uh yeah they come out they look for him for a while then they start coming out they don't know what to do so So they bring out the mobile crime scene lab. Wow.

Look around. Try to see if there's a trace of him anywhere. I feel like, too, they're bored. And they're like, we finally get to use this mobile crime. What is this thing? Hold on. Mobile crime. Take it out.

Who's got it? Anybody got a box cutter? We got to take it out. It's wrapped in plastic still. Let's open it. They haven't even opened it. Oh, shit. These instructions are in. What is this? Swedish or some shit it came with the microscope for christ that's

cool let me see that that's pretty neat oh let me look at this over here i'm gonna take a slide in the bathroom and fill that up is this german what the hell the hell goddamn well there's a jizz microscope so it's probably german i I guess. I don't know. Anybody speak German? That's what it is here. I'm going to look and see if I can see my own swimmers. Maybe you can. I'm going to look at something gross. So they observed that there was a small pickup truck that was still at the house there, which was kind of their car that they used.

So he didn't take the car. That's something to look at. They looked all around they said that quote we haven't located him we're trying to get as many clues as possible to determine where he might be as time goes by we're growing more and more concerned about his welfare sure yeah it's a a guy with a heart condition an older guy in the woods yeah for days oh you know that's what they think at this point so who knows so they said they they couldn't be sure of his state of mind they didn't know if you know he's been a little flighty and all these he snaps sometimes goes off the deep end they don't know what he's about who knows what he's doing out there so they said they had a helicopter in the air yeah searching for him and all this this is like immediately they

start this because he's been gone for days so i mean they mobilized like that yeah and like i said they were something to do let's do it to use this finally yeah we've got it all we've been waiting to search for somebody for so long so we have dogs and everything really it's that they're trained they're really just chomping at the bit look at him look at this poor puppy he's got nothing to sniff we got a mobile crime scene lab it's cool put it on the back of the ski horse i took it out hold on hook it up to the horse here put ski everybody secure the skis on that horse that goddamn horse better have skis on it when i come back here come off and that lab's gonna go against a goddamn tree jesus christ almighty so yeah they're uh so they said they're they're not ruling out a ground search too but they're going to start

with the air and see if they can spot them somewhere they uh they said it's not unusual to call in the mobile crime scene lab for a missing person just to get they never know if let's say they were you know kidnapped and killed or something they want to know that ahead of time before you might as well see if you can find a blood trail or something by their house that's that way you would have a clue ahead of time they said quote each case is different we've called the crime lab into other similar situations so uh yeah they talked to margaret dunn a little more she tells them more about them keeping to themselves they just kept to themselves that's it they're very mainly they're

very mainly that's how it works here uh they took trips away from home a lot they they found out the gogins so they they went places mainly to hunt and fish in other places right so they said okay maybe that's where maybe gene went to one of the places they go and hunt and fish yeah who knows but he didn't take his truck and he just disappeared without telling anybody he didn't take a suitcase or anything that's odd uh he's often seen from what they find because they're trying to figure out kind of piece together gene's day right it seems to be hunts and fishes talks to the neighbors otherwise he's seen walking along the athens road carrying a long stick that's just a thing he does that's what he does all the neighbors said you just see him

walking carrying a long stick i found a stick i'm gonna go for a walk i'm gonna go for a walk now i can't go for a walk till i find a stick you're not gonna believe i found the nicest walking stick it's beautiful take me a walk i'm gonna walk it with it so very that's what he does it's an odd bird strange strange strange dude here take a walk so um they said quote uh this is what the neighbor said quote this is kind of troublesome worrisome as time goes by you wonder what's going on here yeah who knows so now it turns into a massive search and uh this is all while they're at the police station you know we're talking this is carlene and vela or what's her name carlene was that her name the sister helletier is the last name i remember the goddamn last name which is way more

complicated it's a different so um yeah he's missing. They searched all around the lake that's near there. They searched pretty much everywhere. One of the police officers said he left home. He left his home under suspicious circumstances. We believe he may have met his demise. So now they're saying that as time goes by, they're having a little bit of a different view on the whole thing. They said, but we still hope to find him alive okay well good luck with that um yeah they said quote uh we're not talking about

anything once we find him then we'll know more well duh obviously thanks thanks police officer we appreciate that wonderful yeah uh yeah so pelletieri um while they're in the police station she talks to vella a little bit more and vella starts to starts to tell her some more about maybe she might know where gene went yeah um and as she's doing this she's going okay you got to tell the cops while you're here what's going on so vela ends up going all right here we go here's what happened first she goes i she didn't want to tell the cops really she goes well you just tell them so pelletieri here the sister pelletier she has to go to the cops and go all right my sister has to tell you something um here's what she's going to tell you

basically and and she has to spill the beans of the whole thing she tells the cops quote she carried her husband's body out of their house placed the body in their pickup truck and drove the body away and deposited it yeah that's what she told them okay it's way more than that we'll just say that but that's gave them the long and short of the whole thing oh my so they were like okay um is this really what happened and so they asked vela is this what happened and she all she would say was quote it's true that's it she wouldn't give any other details she was kind of uh shy about the whole thing just uh yeah so they find out a little bit more we'll find out a little bit more here in a second but uh she from based on what they found uh found out from her the fourth uh the next day she's involuntarily committed to a

to a hospital oh for some uh psychiatric some testing yeah things because she does not sound right we'll put it that way she's got a couple of issues and talking to her it seems like they they could tell there's something wrong with her as we'll find out as time goes on she's a little off there's something something a little bit off there and like we said she had a crazy hard life so who knows what her life is like and i don't feel like she's had a lot of therapy living in the woods with this asshole yeah you know what i mean i just don't feel like she's overcome whatever she had so uh she's committed for her own safety to the augusta mental health institute after her and her sister came in there uh let's

go back to october 1st and find out what happened here all right uh jean i'm sorry vela had been awake and uh she didn't eat very much on the first of october nervous she's got a nervous stomach and it's because her husband's been kind of crazy the last couple days uh she had been on also prescription sleeping pills normally and an antidepressant both of which made her tired the sleeping pills obviously the antidepressant made her tired as well but she stopped taking them the last few days you can't just stop antidepressants cold turkey first of all that is and not good and if you're gonna you better know that you're about to have some shit you better do

it with a doctor you better have a doctor do that shit with you and tell you what to expect because to go through some stuff you're about to it's not recommended that you do this shit at all it's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast morb Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great a dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing this mother lied like a liar like a

liar and if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal or you love to hop in the way back machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart.

And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper.

In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer,

unearthing secrets that leave Ruth an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran,

Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. And also her prescription sleeping pills. So she stops them both right away. Doesn't want to take them. She's affecting not only her nights, not only her days, but her nights. Like this is pretty bad.

This is bad stuff. So she's been up for a while now. For days, but her nights. Like, this is pretty bad. This is bad stuff. So she's been up for a while now. For days, basically. Really? She's been up because, quote, she felt as if he would kill her if she fell asleep, is what she said. She thought Jean would kill her if she fell asleep. And she may have good reason for that as we go into this. So she's up for days scared of gene

feeling everything feeling everything and yeah so on the morning of the first apparently uh they got in an argument and gene got violent with her that morning uh he apparently lifted her up into the air oh uh so hard that she hit her head on the bottom of a cupboard that was there. So he picked her up and racked her head on a cupboard and hurt her pretty bad, I guess. And so she was obviously upset. Sure. Clearly, he abused her. Then a little while later, after he did that, he stomped around angrily, apparently, and

was still pissed at her. And then he told her, forced her, made her get into the truck at this point and drove her to a remote area in Mayfield Township, which is about 20 miles away. Logging roads, shit like that. It's the woods. It's the middle of nowhere. woods it's the middle of nowhere so uh drove her out there to the woods and uh stopped and basically said that he took her there with two guns two loaded guns yeah is that he had in his possession and uh he's in the truck and he ordered her out of the truck he told her to get out of the truck yeah at that point uh with two loaded guns in the woods while she was he was mad at her and had violently assaulted her that morning and she wasn't like hey we're going hunting this is

gonna be fun he was like get the truck and then he's taking guns and he's like get out of the truck so this sounds weird uh she felt that if she got out of the truck he was gonna shoot her so he she refused to get out of the truck she said if you're gonna shoot me you're gonna have to do it in your truck so do that yeah that if you're going to shoot me, you're going to have to do it in your truck. So do that. Yeah. You're not going to shoot me in your truck, are you? Smart. Yeah.

I mean, it's less likely, I suppose. So he ends up, she just straight refuses to get out of the truck, and he ends up saying, fuck it, and turning around and going home. She's not worth cleaning the carpet. I guess not. So yeah, she refused. So time goes by. The rest of that day is very, very, very uncomfortable.

I'm sure. You might imagine. She is wide awake. She will not go to sleep. Gene, though, he falls asleep as time goes by that night. He falls asleep. And Vela says, okay, now's my chance. While he's asleep, she grabs a.22 caliber pistol that she has and shoots him in the left ear okay uh the first

shot does not kill him or incapacitate him doesn't penetrate the brain obviously so first shot right into his ear bounces around all it does is make him sit up and reach for a loaded 38 that he has next to the bed which you should have used that right she wanted to do this much easier one correctly um he reaches for a 38 so before he can reach to 38 she says he shoots her she says that she shoots him twice more in the ear on the right side of his head for sure around his ear right there like that's what she was aiming for his ear and he died from that so three shots to the head killed him good lord Lord. So she killed him. He's dead. He's in bed and he's dead.

Dead in bed, which obviously this is a problem now. Mainly. Mainly a big problem. She doesn't know what to do here. She thinks about it for a minute. Goes, holy shit. I mean, 37 years and it's been a lot of uh tough times the last few years and all this and here he is bleeding out in the bed like oh fuck

this is the end of it so she says well what are you gonna do she uh drags him to the truck and uh drags him to the truck and deposits him about 20 miles away where mayfield township oh right he was gonna get her he took her yeah you might think she's a small woman small enough to be lifted up violently by a 62 year old man with a heart condition yeah small enough to be lifted up violently to have her head racked into a cupboard how how does she move how is she gonna move a guy that much bigger than her who's big enough to shove her up like that literally dead weight well the thing is about dead weight if you're going to carry a person it's very very heavy the way to make them a lot lighter is to no chop them into many pieces make many hands

make light work and it's a lot easier if you've been a butcher's assistant for a long way oh jesus and you know exactly how to butcher say a large mammal holy shit so uh she she took him apart she takes him apart she puts takes him apart cuts him into 17 pieces my god this is like the mob would love to hire her she could have worked for the Gambino family in the 70s. Hands. Forearms. Biceps. Legs. Feet.

She took it all down. One little piggy, two little piggy. Like she was going to sell them for parts. Like you would break an animal down. 17 of them. Wherever there's joints, she broke it down. Wherever there's big joints is where she chopped it and did it. everything i mean she cut him into 17 fucking pieces and that way they were movable pieces for her so she can move them um she did this she cut cut him up um i mean the

butcher thing is going to be a it's just because she butchered him just like he was wow just like she had an animal that needed to be parted out. Just wear the joints. Chop, chop, chop. So you're whistling while she does it. Yeah. Just. Yeah. I could picture with like her iPhone.

Yeah. Little AirPods in. She's got the new Cardi B playing. Yeah. She's dancing. I picture like in Drop Dead Gorgeous. She's practicing her tap routine while she's doing the makeup on the. Holy shit. The dead person.

It's. But yeah. This is what she does um wow that's a that's that's heavy yeah she just shot her husband and then dragged him out and butchered him into 17 pieces that's my god this is fucking wild man so uh she does that she stuffs him into military duffel bags that they had yeah and then puts him in the truck drives him into the woods and then what she does here is really the remarkable part if you can i mean go on there's been quite a few crazy things so far that's been happening it's pretty impressive

so far this here kind of takes the cake uh she hides him really well what she hides him first of all it's 17 pieces yeah she goes out there and hand digs 17 holes okay what hand digs with her fucking hands like clawing at the ground clawing at the ground digs holes puts the parts in there because it's 17 different parts 17 holes scatters them all around and really covers them well yeah covers them back up puts leaves on like you you can't fucking tell that there's anything there because it's not a big giant disturbed hole she does little holes so you can't even tell and even find just like a rotten stump and throw bags in it not even i mean she'd hand buried 17 different parts all over the woods, which is a pretty large area, too. Staggering.

Not all right next to each other. She took them. I'm going to do 20 paces here in between fucking hands. Wow. It's crazy. Yeah. The police would later call it being brutally hacked apart, which, I mean, tomato, tomato, I guess.

being brutally hacked apart which i mean you know tomato tomato i guess um so he was placed in these holes scattered all over the woods and um the cops searched for six days they can't find him out there even though she told him where they where he was yeah that's how that's how well she hit him unbelievable she it's wild um so first they said that his head and torso were found first i guess and then eventually 15 of 17 of the parts were located the only things that weren't located were her thigh his thighs have never been found both of them both the thighs so somewhere she does a good job hiding thighs yeah Yeah. Good thigh hider. Unbelievable. So somewhere in the woods of Mayfield Township, there is definitely two buried thighs out there.

Somewhere in these woods. Absolutely two buried thighs. 100% certainty that that's a fact. So they go through the house. They found nearly a dozen firearms from the house. They were hunters. They lived in a rural area here. And but the 22 she used to kill him and the butchering utensils she used never were found.

They never found. She ditched them and never said where they were. They're with the thighs. She wouldn't tell him where they were. She wouldn't tell him where all that stuff was so it's yeah the police said that it uh quote substantial effort had been taken by mrs gogan to clean up the mess that the of this event created in the family home as you could imagine first of all you shot a guy in the head three times in your bedroom yeah that's a lot of blood yeah he's bleeding out that's a shitload of blood coming out uh so there's that to clean up and then you butchered

a human being into 17 pieces that's messy even more blood that's a lot of blood this is of all a very messy thing the blood keeps getting to be more yeah which i assume they probably had an area where they would butcher out animals i bet probably if they were avid hunters. So mainly she probably mainly avid hunters. You never know. So yeah, two days later here, like we said, it's crazy that this is the only time the sister's only seen her four times in 30 years. She probably hasn't seen her in 10 years. She stops by unannounced. Where's your husband?

Oh my. Out of the blue. Oh my God. You're a fresh murderer. Wow. What are the odds? And what if the sister didn't stop by? She would have never reported it. Who knows how long it would have taken i mean for his family to

eventually go i haven't heard from gene in a long time like it's christmas still haven't heard from gene isn't that weird i mean when would they eventually who knows uh so wow uh at the station once they're there um she says that uh mrselletier, the woods, the sister says, yeah, sister's got something to tell you. He's in the woods. They listen. At that point, they Mirandize. You know, she's a suspect for something. So they Mirandize Vela and Vela says that she didn't want to answer any questions. And the police said, well, I mean, if we're going to to look for him we kind of have to know that he's dead and i kind of have to hear that from you and that's when she said it's true so then they got requested assistance from the main police that's when the whole thing happened and uh the sister wrote out a big handwritten affidavit telling

exactly what vela had told her sure because vela didn't tell him about the butchering and all that this is the sister had to like as like she talked spoke through her sister basically pull it out of her yeah so um by the uh 10 a.m on the 4th they there's here's a little legal thing that happened 10 a.m on the 4th they were searching the gogan property detective mitchell met with a sergeant drake at the gogan property he handed over all the paperwork and uh detective mitchell met with a sergeant drake at the gogan property he handed over all the paperwork and uh detective mitchell realized that he didn't have a warrant which is a problem obviously if you're going to search something he was convinced that he did receive a signed warrant uh from uh uh from the from whoever but he said that, I know I have it, so he started searching for it.

On October 5th, Detective Mitchell obtained information from one of the searching officers that caused him to believe that Mrs. Gogan used black plastic garbage bags to put him in before she put him in the military bags. Obviously, you don't want him to leak all over everything. So based upon that, he prepared a set of documents to get a second search warrant so uh detective mitchell went with uh to i think the attorney general's office on october 5th 99 with a second set of documents where he did an affidavit and all that sort of shit and got another uh got another warrant now the attorney at that point said that uh yeah he had

probable cause and all this sort of shit. The detective mentioned the missing warrant, and the attorney said, I never signed a warrant for that. So they've been searching the house for a day and a half with no warrant. They thought they had a warrant, but they just lost the paper warrant. But it was legally whatever. Turns out they never got a warrant. So they've been searching the house illegally for a day and a half, basically, with no warrant. So at some point, the detective finally determined that he never received a warrant and was initiated the ever.

So on October 7th, he resubmitted documents that he prepared on the 3rd for the original warrant and then finally got another warrant. And then they finished searching the house and they got a bunch of shit but that was the thing as they searched it they were there for a couple days searching everything with no warrant oh my god yeah which is obviously a problem do that no that's an issue you gotta get your introduction yeah cross your t's yeah dot your eyes do your shit so october 6 1999 three days into it they uh they amend their investigation to say that uh he's not a missing person anymore that they say he has met his demise okay as a matter that's how they quoted it in the paper met his demise so uh they uh they now it comes out that there was domestic violence before the last time the sheriff's department was there was in june so it's you know hasn't been that long um there's been a lot they did all the helicopter

search they're still searching for his body parts they can't find him uh originally they just found the head and the torso at first and went from there um so they end up, uh, on October 8th is when they find him everywhere. Uh, like we said, remote area in Mayfield township, more than 20 miles from the home. And, um, uh, the way they find him is Vela tells him where they, where he is. They still can't find him. Really? They have, they go out there. She hit him very, very well.

And it's the woods. So it's not like it's, you it's landmarks everywhere and things to know. It's right here. So they can't find him. They have to bring in the dogs. So they know the area. So they have to bring in dogs. The guy who ran the cadaver dog, the officer who had the cadaver dog in this particular case, wrote a book about basically being a canine officer in the woods in maine and he talked about

this case a lot so i kind of got a i got a piece of that from him from how he found it and then kind of how they do that too because i think that's pretty cool oh yeah so he said this guy says i've been dealing with people who hide stuff my whole career no shit right and i've always been able to pick it out but even uh but even to me this scene was just amazing i was out there with the state police think about that first fascinating way to describe it even to me yeah like all i do is find shit i literally have the dog that sees that gets shit that you can't see that's my job my job this was amazing This one particularly interesting. Amazing.

Amazing. In print. He said, I was out there with the state police searching. The dog would hit. That was Reba. She was just so good, so reliable that I tell the detective who was with me, take a picture. And he would say, there's nothing there. And we'd take a stick and poke around and there it would be.

So the only way they could find it was the dog. He said quote i think we found everything with the hands that one night the first night yeah first night they didn't find the hands the first night they said that we found 13 parts and then the next day they found they found the hands and then they never found the thighs unbelievable so that's how it worked here uh He said it was getting dark. It was September, a clear, clear night with a crisp fall air. And I was in the woods pulling out all these body parts. And I vividly remember the things that stick in your mind. At one point, I turned around and the medical examiner was walking out of the woods with this human part in his hands. So he says it's a thigh, but it's not a thigh because they never found the thighs that's right so it was probably a shin or something who knows yeah we don't know he said

quote so i got done there and that night my wife and i went to a dinner party we were having roast pork with a whole group of people and i was really hungry but i couldn't eat that roast because chopped off it looked exactly like the part i had just seen it ruined my dinner fucking ruined him he said i was sitting there thinking i could real i really couldn't discuss what i had just gone through with all these people at a dinner party and saying i'll have a little more salad after that which yeah uh my my wife was giving me that what's wrong with you you love this stuff look and i was thinking not tonight i can't do it babe you ever seen a uh you ever seen a dead foot you ever seen a really well butchered human body it's really bad it's not cool you know what a chicken looks like when you got it skin

looks just like that pig right there well yeah pork is the most that's yeah that's what they do so um she said you know he said not tonight i't do it. Here I was at this party acting normal in two hours before I'd been picking body parts out of the woods. One thing we learned from working homicides where the perpetrators had hidden bodies in the woods, that when people hide bodies, when people hid bodies or something they'd stolen, they'd hide things where they could monitor them. And we always see this. Often they did it subconsciously. And that's what I think it is, too. I don't even think they're realizing they're doing it. They just had this need to hide them in ways that they could find the spot again to ensure that it hadn't been disturbed.

Yeah. Part of that is due to the fact that a lot of these people who kill and hide bodies are control freaks of one sort or another, but because that's the personality trait that got them to this point where they were thinking, this person isn't controllable anymore so now my only option is to destroy them it's a good well put and once they have a body in their hands they have to do something with it obviously those types of people have to be the uh have to have that element of control throughout the process consciously they might not even know they're doing it so when we go out on a search looking for looking for where someone has hidden the body we put ourselves into their mindset to help us find it part of our preparation for the search

will be understanding the perpetrator and the circumstances under which the body was hidden okay which makes sense you want to know a little bit about it um he's i was reading a little bit about this and it's fucking interesting as shit here he says they have to know they ask a shit load of questions they don't just go out sniffing with the dog yeah he said they act like um you know people think like you just hear there's something missing and you just run after them with dogs he says quote they act like they've seen too many of those old prison escape movies where the farmer comes out with baying bloodhounds to track the convicts right you rub their underwear on the dog's face and off he goes there they go wild animals into the woods he said

they thought we were going to come in and walk the dogs and go home in reality our process is far more complex and scientific he said if we're coming to help law enforcement find a body somewhere in the woods we'd arrive with our computers and our mapping programs and our expertise, and we'd start learning about their suspect. Right. Which is interesting because I don't think people realize that. They just think the guy hops out of the car and the dog starts sniffing. Right. That's it. And he said, we'd say, okay, we need to know what that suspect does. We need to know where his world is. Is he a hunter, hunter a fisherman what type of outdoor activities does he do how comfortable is he in the woods that'll tell you how far in they might go

stop talking where's your goddamn dog that's exactly in there yeah just have the dog sniff and he's like no no uh how familiar is they with are they with the area we'd ask what they learned from interviews so we could build a timeline and figure out how much time he had to dispose of the body whether or not it happened at day or night. It would matter, for example, if they could tie their suspect to a shovel so we might be looking at a buried body in a deeper hole rather

than a hand-dug hole, or whether the incident happened in the winter so the body might be frozen and not giving off a scent or might be not buried that deep because the ground's frozen. Once we got them past the fundamental public safety instinct to share as little as possible, and they started to see how this worked, they'd buy into it.

So, yeah, it's an interesting process. I didn't really realize how they do that either. I know they get a set and they go, but I didn't know they show up with computers and start doing mapping. It's rare that they show that part on TV because that's the boring shit. It's boring, yeah. That's not exciting. Man, to figure figure out the guy's not comfortable in the woods and it's winter and it's dark he's probably not going to bury it too far in yeah it's probably going to be pretty

close to an entrance boring as fuck but watching samson bellow and run through the woods is rad yeah that's where it's getting on something go get it boy so for a week they write they they uh investigated the home and surrounding area to confirm the death and the man in her and make sure that she was telling the truth. Finally, a medical examiner's report on Monday, October 11th confirmed Jean died of multiple gunshot wounds to the head. And yeah, it was funny. In the press, though, there was these rumors that Jean was dismembered because it's a small

town. It gets around. So they kept asking the police and the police wouldn't say they kept like they didn't want to inflame it yeah so they said quote in the interest of the fairness of a trial investigative information like that will not come out until until the trial the whole idea is to give her uh give vela gogan through this as fairly as possible they would not answer did she chop him up or? Like everyone in this town was like, oh, she fucking finally chopped them up. They were that couple. Yeah.

Old jeans. Old Bella finally had enough of Jean. Like it's like funny farm. Yeah. Old Claude Musselman. He finally pushed it too far. She buried him in the right in the vegetable garden there. He had a donkey.

Keep an eye out for that. Keep an eye out for that. Never did turn up so uh november 9th 1999 there's uh basically they're saying is there going to be a mental exam or not this is a month later she's been in for a month in this facility and there's it says here there's nothing in the law to compel vela to talk to the state at this time she's a suspect she can remain silent she doesn't have to talk to the state at this time. She's a suspect. She can remain silent. She doesn't have to talk to anybody. She doesn't have to do anything.

No. According to her attorney, especially, who talks about this, her attorney says that they will argue against a request from the state attorney general's office seeking a court order for a mental examination by the state's forensic service. A court-ordered mental exam before the woman is indicted and arraigned in connection with the death of her husband would violate her fifth amendment rights

against self-incriminating yeah you can't tell her tell us everything he did it's unconstitutional yeah so the judge didn't rule on the request but he's gonna rule on it soon here the attorney keeps saying though this is bullshit i'm not gonna do it uh you know i won't let her do it basically they said um everything could take all this time and that's also not fair to her to make her go through a long process uh they said that uh that's by the way they were in the paper they kept talking about how she didn't even tell him it was the sister they made a really big deal out of like the sister being ratting on her an interpreter yeah uh but the the lawyer

for vellus says quote my client has invoked the right to remain silent that's only trump when she puts her mental state on as an issue before the court she has the right to do that not you um was what it's saying you can say competency but that's there's a different thing here that's a quick thing you're talking about a full mental examination. They said, quote, I know the state is frustrated because she invoked her right to remain silent. That doesn't happen in Maine. A defendant usually gives a statement. What is going on with Maine? We don't use our rights in Maine.

Up here in Maine, we don't use our rights. You know, we just have some peppers. It's not very mainly of it. It's not very mainly. Just have some pepperidge farm and tell them what happened. What's wrong with you? Sit down on the porch, have some Pepperidge Farm and tell them. Listen.

And get you a lobster roll. Here's some country time lemonade. Curl up with a nice Stephen King and start talking. There we go. Tell them what happened. Here's your flannel. Let's go. It's getting chilly out.

It's getting toward the end of July. It's getting chilly. It's 2 p.m. It's getting cold now little chilly outside all right then night's coming on so um the during the hearing here the uh state attorney general said he wanted to the examination to preserve evidence based on the belief that vella will use her mental state at the time of her husband's death as a basis for her defense and the defense says we haven't decided that yet and we don't have to so fuck you basically uh the judge questioned if the request was anticipatory here and uh they said there's almost certainly going to be a diminished capacity of vella gogan's mental state used in the defense of this case. This is the prosecutor.

A defendant's state of mind can change. The court can order the exam and impound it until the plea is entered, so we can't look at it. Sure. Order the exam, the doctors hear it, and then whatever, until everything comes out. Her mental state is not an issue until such time as we place it before the court, is what her lawyer said. So there's nothing there.

So the defense says, quote, I've agreed to the psychiatric evaluation to determine her competence to stand trial. The state is obligated to examine, not to prosecute someone who is not competent to understand the court's process. So they're talking about competency a lot for a minute here because she's in the hospital for almost two months. We'll talk about a psychiatric defense could be used if she suffered from an abnormal condition of the mind or was not criminally responsible. If it was decided to use a psychiatric defense, a competency hearing could then be scheduled.

Her lawyer said, quote, I think she's competent. She's certainly doing better than when I first saw her. I currently think she is competent to assist in her own defense that's all they're talking about um then they ask about the sister you know is the sister in trouble for and they're like no the sister did the right thing sister's a hero yeah uh she said quote carlene was in a difficult situation she knew her sister had done something illegal these have been really difficult weeks for the pelletier and gogan families this case will eventually deal with the most private aspects of their life obviously here so november 19th 1999 there's a bail hearing you figure bail she's still

locked up by the way she's still not even out of the out of the mental hospital yet so you figure 17 pieces they're probably not getting bail for that shit or at least super high something right um so they talk about during the bail hearing they talk a lot about the fact that there was a lot of domestic abuse at the house and that she's not some crazy you know some bloodthirsty monster who just can't wait to butcher somebody this is a a different thing uh she said that uh but then the prosecution said that she didn't even turn herself in she had to be coerced into excellent point going to the police so it's not like you know she's that reliable uh she said but for carlene pelletier jean gogan

might have just been another horrible statistic of a missing person that never came home uh the judge is going to decide as we'll talk about, that they're going to give her bail. Now, any decision like that, the prosecutor said was wrong and misguided. He said, quote, Gene Goggin is the victim, not Vela Goggin. He attempted to paint a picture of an unstable woman, threat to herself and others and a likely candidate to flee from justice if given bail she's not go where is she gonna go the person she wants to hurt is done well plus she's an older lady 55 she's not old but she's an older lady who's lived in the same place with the same guy for almost 40 years where it's not like she's got a vast

network of places she can go yeah well she's got the malibu beach house she could end up there you know the hunting lodge in wyoming is a place you never know she could end up over there that vegas loft there's that and then also the port of vallarta condo i mean she could end up down there you never know who knows with fellas she's got a lot of options so uh yeah he pointed out that uh that gene gogan was never convicted of this is the balls on this guy though the prosecutor said gene gogan was never convicted of an offense involving his wife oh the cops have been there all the time but never convicted of a crime uh-huh okay which not enough to be arrested on it's kind of made him sound like a dick in court i bet even in the

late 90s i'd like to check on his wife i don't know about that she all right yeah right um so uh she said quote uh this is comes from the court if the court finds that she is entitled to bail it could it could be extinguished by evidence from the state that she is a risk of danger to others or is a risk of not appearing in court she's not just a dangerous person she says this is a woman 55 years old married to the same man for 37 years she's lived in this area most of her life she has a large and supportive family many of whom who were there at her initial court appearance to support her and help her in any way she can so they said in the state's own testimony they reported a history of domestic abuse in this marriage.

Gene Gogan was described as someone with an explosive personality, one where he would fly into a rage. These are in quotes talking about Vela to the neighbors. He'd just be like that fucking bitch, my wife. They'd be like, whoa, he's that guy. He's already mad just by asking about her. Every neighborhood has that guy where every time he brings up his wife he's like my fucking you're like jesus good god you get a divorce you miserable asshole well don't worry about him because once he's divorced uh he's gonna still talk about it got more more than but

at least you know what is wrong with you i'm happy i'm free from that bitch yeah free from that goddamn bitch be like that cab driver the uber driver I had in Denver, who was like, that fucking bitch. That's him. I love that. That's the guy. Do you like Denver? Denver's nice.

People are nice. People very nice. Very nice people. Everyone here, very nice. Except for my ex-wife. She is fucking bitch. What? It's like this guy.

5 a.m. I'm like, all right, up I'm awake now yeah I'm perked up man buckle up the next 20 minutes is all about this that was amazing every time I call you pick my kid up I call her when it snows maybe she crashed on the way there every time she make it she always make it she don't crash every time I wish she would die and i'm like this guy is crazy some if it was like a cab i could have got his name just in case something happened but i don't know who he was who knows what it was on the guy that gave the wrong name to hoover who knows i was just like whoa this guy is all out there he says uh they say all the evidence that they have comes from her if she and her

sister hadn't reported him missing they would have nothing it does not this doesn't indicate she's a danger to the community makes sense sure said we're asking for bail to be set please you know get some bail here she's still in the hospital anyway so the bail would be for once she's determined to be safe whatever so uh, they said that she's 37 year marriage. She's endured a lot of abuse. She said, quote, this is the lawyer, quote, if we had wanted to play games with the state, we would have never told them where to find Gene Goggin's body. They would have never fucking found it. They couldn't even.

They barely found it when she told them where it was with dogs. Yeah. So if she just said, I don't't know 20 miles away in a woods off a logging road they'd have never found him in a million years no body no crime as we've right or if she just says i don't know what happened to him don't know nobody would ever known that's it would have never goddamn known uh she said i had to wait for vela's informed consent to tell them she wanted to tell me but given her initial state of mind i had to wait before i could tell my investigator to take the police to the site so the lawyer even said

the only reason there was a delay is because of me i told her not to i didn't say shit about it until i knew more so he's don't blame her for that is what the lawyer is saying so in the ruling um the uh the judge said that the state's evidence against gogan standing alone would represent a clear and convincing presentation that vela gogan presently poses a risk of danger to the community simply due to the nature of the crime its manner of commission her gruesome effects to avoid its detection and her psychiatric condition however the entire weight of the evidence suggests that the events of this crime are uniquely and closely related to Mrs. Gogan's chronic dysfunctional relationship

with the victim, her husband, and that no other person exists in the community who would be the object of any other untoward or aberrational act by her. Fail granted. In other words, he's the only one that she's going to kill. He's gone. I really don't think she's going to kill yeah he's gone i really don't think she's going to kill anyone else unless they abuse her for 30 years her list is empty her list is empty so uh he does uh he says that uh basically it's a surety bond of 190 000 that he

allows the brother's property to be put up in the place of it so and her brother's property is a piece and the judge allows her to put her property up which is that's where the state's like that's who knows if she's gonna end up with that because that's half jeans right so that could be contested she can't use that as money and the judge says yeah fuck it sure she can why not it's fine it just guarantees that she'll show up it's not like jesus she'll uh up. It's not like Jesus. She'll be allowed to live with her brother for now. She can't live at the crime scene.

The prosecutor gets all mad about this, calls it an execution style killing and said that was Javella was not acting in fear of her own life. The prosecutor said the bail should have been five hundred thousand dollars. This is ridiculous uh the basically the judge it's almost house arrest is what she's on the list includes a uh the ruling includes a list of 24 people mostly relatives of gene gogan whom vela is not allowed to have contact with legally while she's out here list includes uh gene's children gene and bella's daughter her own daughter yeah and uh and her grandchildren as well bella's grandchildren not allowed to talk to any of them uh but at least she's out of jail but she's not out yet because she's still in the mental hospital yeah that's how this works she has bail but she's still there um they said basically the

family members offered to provide round-the-clock surveillance they said they would perform provide transportation to and from psychiatric and medical appointments and they would ensure that she takes all medicine prescribed let her out we'll take care of her uh so they said that uh the uh prosecutor said that amount of bail is woefully inadequate um Much, I mean, yeah. He said it's that he was saying that Jean had called the cops on her too. So, you know,

I mean, maybe she was abusing him. Maybe. Maybe this was just the end of a long road of abuse on her part. And she finally decided to kill him. People are like, yeah, probably not. We never heard her threatening to kill him, the family dog, burn the house down and blow her brains out in the front yard no one's ever heard that and dance in the flames very few neighbors have heard that while blowing his fucking brains out

um not happening here so um she ends up uh they allow her family to get some of her belongings out of the house so uh the prosecutor also says that it's unprecedented to allow Vela to use her own property to post bail when there's no assurance she'd inherit the jeans property of the joint ownership. He also objected to her placement and monitoring in the home of a convicted felon who's her brother. Her brother's a convicted felon. Now, keep in mind, this is 1999. They wouldn't elaborate on whatever his crime was, the brother. That's because they brought that objection up

and the judge said, well, when was this felony take place? The prosecutor said, oh, I don't know. We don't have that information. The defense did, though. The 1950s. Oh, boy.

The guy got in trouble 40 years ago he's a felon this guy uh it's been 40 years calm down chill he's a foul the 50s it's 1999 he had a fucking greaser hairdo and a leather jacket when he got in trouble for fuck you know what i mean yeah he looked like john travolta in the 70s and now he's in the 50s there was only like three felonies there's only like three laws i'm sure yeah you had to like kill a woman right um i mean if it was for a reason in the 50s it was fine you get away with it it was like it was legal to have sex with children back then as long as you married him afterwards god damn you better marry that girl make an honest 10th grader out of her you better make an honest sophomore out of my daughter

it was like murder and then like grand theft. That was really it, right? Stole my shit. So, yeah, they said she, wow, she ends up getting out of the mental institution here and everything like that. The judge ruled that she must be looked after by her friends and family and all this type of shit. looked after uh by her friends and family and all this type of shit basically there's a list of nine people some of which have to be with her at all times including her relatives friends psychiatric caseworker all these people the judge said everybody's you're all responsible for keeping an eye on her keep her out of trouble they're gonna go with the battered woman defense here

the battered wife defense and they're wondering at the time if there's any precedence in Maine for this working, actually, because it goes better in some states than others based on the specific laws. The first time it was actually used successfully in Maine was in 1991 when the jury acquitted a restaurant owner, a woman named Jacqueline Bevins, in the murder of her husband, whose name was Jack Bevins, by the way. Jacqueline and Jack. Get the fuck out of here. I mean, that's too much. Jack and Jackie. Jack and Jackie. That's a lot.

I guess the Kennedys, they called him Jack, even though his name was John. Isn't that weird? John used to be Jack back in the day. Well, it's just short for John. It's literally Jimmy for James. It's the same thing. It's the same. No.

But it's one syllable. So what's the point? That's what I'm saying. But that's what they do. It's the same name. John Jack. It's barely. You're not changing anything. That's a different name.

You're literally saving no time. You're just calling somebody something else. But it's also a completely different name. They have the same first letter. Then it's J. It's a different name. You're literally saving no time. You're just calling somebody something else. But it's also a completely different name. Right. They have the same first letter, and then it's J. It's a completely different goddamn name. Right. Jack and John, or you name your kid Jack, or you name your kid John.

You can't name your kid John and go, well, I mean, that's Jack, too. It's like Frank being short for Fred. Yeah. That doesn't make any sense. That makes no sense. Why are we doing that? Why? Those are different names.

Name him Frank or name him Fred. Right. Goddamn pick one. You fucked up. Don't make us suffer. Why? Just name him Frank or name him Fred. Goddamn pick one.

You fucked up. Don't make us suffer. Why? So that was 1990, and the judge's ruling supported the defense attorney's claim that Mrs. Bevins attacked in self-defense when she shot her husband 15 times in the bathroom of her home. That's a lot. The defense focused on the woman's state of mind at the time of the shooting and her belief that her husband planned to kill her or have her killed. 15 times? 15 times. That's a lot empty the clip what year uh 1990 oh okay yeah let's just

say if this isn't the 50s they didn't have any magazines held that many no that was the 90s reloaded a lot no she just emptied it okay uh december 10th 1999 she's going to plead not guilty vela does she leaves the augusta mental health institute after being held there obviously involuntarily and uh she gets to leave she doesn't deny any responsibility for the death of her husband she's saying she did it uh but she's saying that she is entering a plea of not guilty in formal arrangement formal arrangement proceedings this case was a case of self-defense is what the attorney says she suffered years of abuse in that marriage vela gogan has terrible remorse for what happened okay so um the uh they said they've never that her lawyer said they've never understood this case talking about the the prosecution they don't understand it still vela gogan refused to wait

until the gun was at her head or the knife was at her throat. But it is nonetheless self-defense. It was an act of desperation. She's not a cold calculating woman as the state would have you believe. There's no question that this woman is of no risk to anyone. Fair enough. She goes for a change of venue because this obviously, you know, everybody knows it's on Easter.

Do you want to look for easter eggs or the thigh bones which one that's the type of shit that's going on around here like it's a you know gene's thighs are still out there somewhere it's crazy shit so they do they move it from somerset to york county to get out of this little area august 2000 they have the search warrant hearing because the judge ends up that whole thing if they didn't have a search because the judge ends up, that whole thing of they didn't have a search warrant, the judge ends up ruling it legal, saying that basically they didn't realize, they could have got a search warrant.

It wasn't like they couldn't. Just miscommunicated. They ended up getting it, and so basically they would have found it. It wasn't like anything would have changed from two days to then is what they said. So either way, when he got the warrant on the 7th, he still would have found the same shit that he found on the 4th. It doesn't matter.

So it wasn't like they had one shot to search it. They were there the whole week. The body wasn't there anyway. There you go. So that's a quick thing. March 14th, 2001 is jury selection here. 18th 2001 is jury selection here and uh they that's a hard thing to do because they're for some reason a case like this when they pick a jury they have to ask them very weird questions about like how you feel about this how do you feel about domestic violence have you ever been a

victim or have you ever seen it did you grow up with this and you have to they want to try to get the people that are sympathetic to a husband that beats the shit out of his wife yeah the prosecution wants nobody that's ever been around domestic violence because obviously you'd go that's a fucking monster somebody who does that yeah jesus christ fuck that guy what do you want somebody that's never been around it or do you want somebody that's like witnessed it and really affected by it well you know what i mean they would side with vela probably yeah if you're the prosecution you want somebody who's never seen it's like you could have got out you're fine what are you talking about somebody like that who just thinks it's no big deal horrified by it you need somebody who's seen it and can go fuck yeah you know that's the defense

but the prosecution wants people who don't care never seen it and don't care yeah so um at this point they're trying to decide vela's legal team comes out and decides that they're not sure they don't decide they're indecisive about the fact that they're not sure if they want a jury trial or they want to waive the jury trial and let it be a bench trial let the judge deal with this because they feel like the people people are idiots yeah and you never know the assembled group you that's the thing about a jury like all lawyers say this and prosecutors especially say you never know who you're gonna get so you have no idea on this jury if you're gonna get people who how it turns out

with your strikes and everything if you're you're gonna find out people who have no sympathy for her sure if something comes out something gets disallowed that who knows where if it's a judge judges look at things they're they're more intelligent than your average juror prosecutors would rather see a bench trial right because no prosecutors depends on what it is yeah because you don't want to work all that's the thing i've always heard is that you don't want to entrust all your hard work into 12 idiots that know nothing about the law and that's the thing but there's a lot of times if you're a prosecutor with a weak case you can you can meld those 12 idiots you can make those 12 idiots vote for you sure you can't make you can't make the judge the same way sure that's what i mean like that's like the staircase

documentary we should do a bonus episode on that at some point with the staircase documentary and that's the case not just the documentary when you look at that that a bench trial that guy is not getting convicted yeah if it was a bench trial because they didn't have any goddamn evidence right well they did some but it was too cloudy what they can circumstance on weird yeah they convinced that north carolina jury of just normal stock and trade people they convinced him they convinced all of them that that dude was gay and seedy and gross yep that's what they convinced him of they got from there to so obviously he'd kill his wife and they all went uh-huh yeah and they convicted him when you watch that trial on the documentary that fucking true. Ugh. Oh, she was the worst, that lady.

The stank she rubbed on gay. She'd come in and she'd go, the gay. Yeah. She made it like eight syllables. And she'd like put stank on it and roll her eyes while she was doing it. Nine whys. He was a homosexual encounters was all he was interested in like a judge would have went you can fucking keep your stank off of your i don't need that shit and she would know better than do that to

a judge because a judge would just piss them off sure don't try to do theatrics with a judge whereas a jury you can do a lot of theatrics and the judge will sit there and roll his eyes but it's on up then right so that's how this works anyway so she decides or her legal team and vela decides that it might be better for her to have a judge hear the case rather than a jury yeah jury might be able to be convinced especially at this moment the 90s are different and especially in maine we've come a long way in 20 years we really have on especially on domestic violence type shit. So they said that they're going to present a battered woman defense and all that. The judge said that he will do it.

He'll preside. The defense said, basically, it's because all of the types of evidence that will be presented. This is a very intelligent judge. And Javela felt that it would be in her best interest to have him hear the case because the jury's just going to hear chopped into 17 pieces that's all they're going to hear chopped into 17 pieces hidden the woods she didn't say anything you can talk say it convince it that she's a monster uh june of two or march of 2001 so some time has gone by here vela uh before right before the case is going to trial

vela decides to plead guilty really she pleads guilty after she gets a very decent offer from the attorney general what is uh basically they see the winds in the way this is going and that the fact that this that she's going to have a bench trial that does not bode well for the prosecution here so the offer from the attorney general's office was uh for a manslaughter conviction here a manslaughter conviction and it carries no mandatory minimum sentence as opposed to a murder conviction which has a mandatory minimum of 25 years so for her it's like i mean if you go to trial you could get 25 if you take this i mean you could get probably very low amount of jail time you're at the mercy of the judge though you're at the mercy of the judge who i mean you know you've said it's a smart judge you got

you like him so let him fucking pick so the the uh this offer comes in and the her defense attorney said she went back and forth it was a very difficult decision for her uh they felt that she had a good chance of getting acquitted based on her defense but the risk of a mandatory minimum sentence of 25 years you never know what's going to happen so that outweighs a lot so they decide that they are going to accept the manslaughter deal she's going to do that one psychiatrist and three psychologists concurred that vela had been abused throughout her marriage and suffered from battered woman syndrome the state psychiatrist everybody they got four doctors they all went oh she's yeah he fucking beat her up and messed her up for years so a piece of cod yeah at that point the state that's why the state made

the offer because it's really hard to go to a murder trial and your experts are going yeah the defense is right yeah i mean that's hard thing you'd have to be like nope doesn't matter anyway she should have done something different she tried to leave she went many times uh the judge here in his written ruling he said that uh that the state's evidence against gogan standing alone uh like we said would be a you know tough thing but then if you add in her side of it it's not that bad he said that vela had quote a partial self-defense argument arising from her fear that her husband uh based on his history of abuse and her belief that he was going to kill her he also suggested that shooting her husband was not her only possible course of action she said he uh quote she could have walked out that front door

true but yeah obviously it's more complicated than that uh these conflicting messages could lead from murder to manslaughter the judge said so uh they also talked about her avoiding detection and her psychiatric condition he's basically weighing the whole thing so he said but the entire weight of it is like we said she killed him she's not killing anybody else unless they abused her for 40 years and she's 55 already so it's probably not happening so the prosecutor though is pissed off prosecutor makes a statement he hates this the attorney general's office made the deal the guy who's prosecuting the case benson is his name yeah he hates that he he wanted vela he wanted her for 25 years yeah he was fucking mad at her man i just picture angry perry mason angry guy he's just so angry this man

he said the state had overwhelming evidence in this case that vela gogan intentionally or knowingly caused the death of her husband unfortunately that uh that is the only part of the trial equation. When the issue of self-defense is generated, the burden shifts to the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant knew either that her husband was not about to use deadly force against her or that she knew it was not necessary to use deadly force against him. In this case, all of the forensic experts including those from the state forensic service agree that the defendant uh the defendant had an honest though perhaps

objectively unreasonable belief that her husband was about to use deadly force against her under main law i guess that translates into a manslaughter he's not thrilled with this but basically he said all of my experts said it so everybody's gonna be a doctor now i guess i guess fuck it yeah it's fine so uh april 5th 2001 is sentencing during the hearing uh gene gogan's family gets a chance to speak and they whoa they not pull any punches they say some nasty shit in court gene gogan's family oh yeah really they're real nasty to her uh she pleaded guilty and uh and uh man here we go let's talk about it she uh vella had a uh there's a two-hour sentencing hearing and vella gets to say her thing and she does i think she gets to make her statement we always say here here, if you're going to plead guilty, when they tell you, what do you want

to say? You better say something. Yeah. And sympathetic. Yeah. Empathetic sympathy. You better not just be like, I guess your honor. Fuck it.

I don't have shit to say to you. Well, that's probably not good because we've heard judges go, well, I was going to give him five years. And then he said that. Yeah. Then he was a jerk in court. So I gave him 12 years. And you're like, whoa, that's a lot of different years for you to have just gone.

You know, it's a terrible thing. I'm sorry. And I shouldn't have done it. And I, you know, I know better now. That's all you have to say. Yeah. Seven, seven less years in prison. Prison.

Actual prison. Seven years. We've heard that exact scenario where the guy's like, I was going to give you this, but you're being a dick. So you know what? I'm allowed to do this you're going away uh she says quote your honor i am very sorry for what i did to gene i'm sorry for hurting his family and my family i loved gene very much but i thought he was going to kill me and i didn't want to die sure that seems reasonable when someone says it puts it that way and i didn't want to die sure that seems reasonable when someone says it puts it that way

and i didn't want to die what did her family well quickly uh we'll give do the sentencing here the judge says uh i guess you ma'am may fuck off he says that uh she'll be sentenced to 15 years in prison uh but all but six of them suspended okay so six years six years in prison and then six years probation after that and time served and time served yeah so six years in prison uh the courtroom there was about 15 members of the gogan family in the courtroom as well and then um we'll talk about what they say here uh vella though is led away by deputies to begin serving her six-year prison term afterwards she hugs her family family they let her hug her family and all that type of shit so here comes

the vela family or the uh gogan family here they are expressing outrage they called it a lenient sentence and suggestive they all said that if the marriage was abusive it was vela that was the abuser oh not even gene all vela uh-huh she's the abuser susan estes a niece of gene gogan said she was ashamed to be a resident of the state of maine today really ashamed to be as res i'm ashamed to be a mainer they brought shame shame upon the state the state the judge's decision made brought shame upon the state and has she has lost her faith in the judicial system altogether up until now yeah the american judicial system has been perfectly just no one's ever been yeah it's just been perfect we've never had a problem with it but now this is post oj that an abused older lady

well not only that this is for how what do they do to people they didn't like forever every fucking minority and everything else for years and years so i mean now though that an abused older lady only has to go to prison for six years ashamed the whole thing now it's finally done we should start over break down the whole system not just maine 49 other states american justice system they said are you satisfied and she said no we're not satisfied she said then um wow she said uh yelled at the reporter quote you think he had it coming right well hell no he didn't wow how could anyone in their right mind do this and this lady is shouting in a courtroom by the way uh she said the six-year sentence would set an example in the state of maine that's what that it sets precedent we can all our our spouses

lives are worth six years yeah that's it we can kill them all well the judge has an answer for that that's amazing yeah uh so she then shouts at vella in the court quote i hope your conscience destroys you and then cynthia spencer who's another niece of gene said that vella had spent years isolating gene from his family he she says quote if the situation here were reversed, Gene would have been behind bars immediately. So another statement she read during the hearing. This was read by her husband here, the Cynthia Spencer's husband. She said that Vela Gogan killed Gene Gogan out of rage, not fear. And Gene Gogan was not the man the defense portrayed him to be. She further advised men in unhappy marriages to quote sleep with one eye open because now it's now you can just kill your husband it's open season so

the judge stops all of that shit that they kept saying and he says this is a fucking judge uh this is justice fritzky fritzky fritzy i don't know he says this is a hilarious quote i don't think we're going to have husbands stacked up like cordwood across the state because of this particular sentence i think i don't think this is going to ruin society relax i think this is a very stacked up like cordwood chill the fuck out is what he said calm down he appeared i mean and these people lost a relative obviously they're upset're upset. They're mad. They're mad and they're going to be mad. But at the same time, contextually, you know, you can't blow it out like this. Yeah.

The judge said he seemed to think the sentencing agreement was reasonable and that he tried that he tried the case based on the evidence in front of him. He would have probably found Gene Vela guilty of manslaughter. He said, if it went to me, we would have gone through it and got the gene uh vella guilty of manslaughter he said if it went to me we would have gone through it and got the same fucking conclusion it's manslaughter he said quote i think i would have agreed that the murder that murder was too much and an acquittal was not appropriate i think you know manslaughter is fair here uh gene gogan's family also did not want to comment seems like they wanted to comment a lot uh to say one unidentified

man with the family screamed out from the crowd quote the judge just forgot to give her back her gun and knife so she can do it again oh my god screamed that out after the goddamn sentencing came down bastard that's not a good thing to do because you could just be held in contempt judges can do whatever they want in their courtroom. You can't do that in a courtroom anyway. You're in like a crazy person's house at that point. And all the doors are locked and he can do whatever he wants. And if you try to run away, he has armed people that will drag you back and have whatever's done to you, done to you. Put you in a room with bars.

Literally, you can be like, contempt. Put that person in jail. What did I do? Doesn't matter. I don't like it. You're in my fucking court and they just drag you away i said you you did contempt that's what you did how long contempt till i feel like it okay and that's like you you don't even need legal process it's crazy they just throw you away it's fucking wild uh so just so she goes into jail obviously for manslaughter and um and uh she does her time and she uh gets out of jail here

and she's um she gets out i believe december of uh there's a 2007 i believe oh either way 2006 she ends up getting out uh you know after her time she's quiet for a little bit and then she starts having some trouble oh when she's out yeah this is just sad december of 2008 she's arrested again oh no uh yeah this is not good she's on obviously parole or probation for six years now uh she's arrested for nothing violent couldn't be couldn't be any less violent than this she's in her 60s now she's arrested from stealing from an olympia sports store in waterville maine she stole two bottles of water and a pair of crocs why that's what she stole of all things don't know i don't know why two bottles of water and a pair and a pair of crocs why the crocs that's disappointing that's disappointing so in 2009 she goes back to jail for violating her parole oh no for shoplifting yeah but she does

it's she's just six six months she has to do so at least she doesn't get like you know do our whole the rest of the 15 or something 25 years for it yeah uh she's released in june of 2009 she gets out so that's a that's bad it's well um august of 2009 oh she's out of jail a couple months she's arrested again what the fuck fella again for shoplifting what again yeah i don't know what her problem is man she take this time uh this time she i don't know what store it was but she uh oh it's a hannaford which is a grocery store yeah hannaford's uh she is arrested charged with this for stealing two bottles of baby powder what the fuck what do you need baby powder for just two bottles of baby powder nothing else babies no i don't know if she's got a moisture problem on her own or she's sweaty or

what but uh two bottles of baby powder um the court appointed attorney asked she'd be released on her own recognizance she's told the judge she has would have trouble paying any amount of bail she has no money basically baby powder i have zero money crocs and baby powder uh the district attorney said that the probation officer recommended that vella undergo psychiatric evaluation and be held without bail because of the the first of all the oddness of it yeah and the also nature of the underlying charge and because two razor blades were found in the door handle of her car which is strange vela told the judge she used the razor blades to open the window of her car what i don't know she has to get it i don't know how she i don't know why she would

need razor blades to open the window of her car but at the time she was arrested with this stuff she told the police that the razor blades were for quote picking scabs off her legs oh my god how many scabs do you have maybe if you didn't use razor blade is that how we pick scabs that is wild um that's what i mean there's something there's something wrong here yeah there's something it's not right she clearly didn't want to talk about the real reason for those there's something going on i used them to open my window what what yeah they talk about what makes this noteworthy is that the defendant was convicted of manslaughter and the defense attorney at one point says just like i don't even know i don't know why she's doing this

and i'm i'm i'm perplexed and i'm just i'm worried that i don't know what's wrong with her basically and so the the the prosecutor was trying to get her thrown back in jail for the rest of her sentence yeah basically this should be a whatever and he said that she's been convicted of manslaughter and the judge said that uh you know he would have set a higher bail if she'd been brought in on a violent charge but he said quote shoplifting is not that kind of offense it's two bottles of baby powder fucking relax so august of 2009 she's in court for her probation violation she's uh they set bail at a five thousand dollar unsecured bond which she can just basically it's ror she uh won't have to put up any bail unless she fails to appear in court is the way that works so if she's convicted she could be sent

back to prison for up to nine years the remainder of her sentence uh the four and a half years a bottle it's crazy the new misdemeanor charge of theft by unauthorized taking she faces up to six months in jail and a fine of one thousand dollars uh obviously the amount of time that you ask on a revocation is going to increase the more violations you have is what they said the idea that of probation is it's a court order that we expect you to obey the court orders. As you continue to violate the law while you're on probation, the ante keeps going up, obviously. And this is, you can see a picture of Vela here after she's, this is her mug shot from being arrested.

Oh, Vela. That lady shot a man once. Yeah, she's just like this lady in her 60s who looks like this kind of a sad old lady. She looks like a sad older lady, that's it. She's like a depressed squirrel. that's it a depressed squirrel that's it poor lady that everybody is vela gogan and jean gogan heartland maine she's she's out now yeah yeah she's out now i think she's she's still alive from what i've seen she has she's going by her maiden name again good she's going by pelletier again uh but uh that's what she's listed under she lives in maine i believe but she's out of prison and out of jail and hasn't been in any more trouble since then or anything like that.

Keep your hands in your pockets. So hands in your pockets. Watch out for baby powder. And here's the other thing. If you work at a store and you see some old lady and she steals baby powder, maybe talk to her. Maybe before you call the cops, maybe talk to her and see what her situation is. And you know what? Maybe dip into your pocket and you fucking pony up four bucks for the baby powder.

And you go, you know what? I got this. Don't worry about it. And you take it. It's an old lady. How often does that shit going to happen? And if you see her stealing crocs, talk her into the Nike. That's what I'm saying.

Be like, listen, you need to up your thievery game here. You can't wear those. How the fuck are you going to? I get it that you have to, but I'm not calling the cops on a lady in her 60s who's not a physical danger to anybody. Unless she's waving around weapons, I'm not calling the cops on an old lady. I'm just not. I'm just not doing it.

I don't think I could either. I'm not. No. I can't. I can't just. I can't do it. I just picture something ringing in my head being like what are you gonna fucking what's wrong with you you know what are you afraid of some old lady

call the cops on the old lady cops on an old lady now so what you're gonna do it's just rings in my head i got uncles going on i can't deal with it so are you scared of me is she gonna come over is she gonna take something from you you worried you worried huh What's she going to take off you, Jimmy? Come on. So, hands in your pockets, fella. Let's just say that. You got Crocs in your closet, Jimmy? We got baby powder. She's going to come get yours? What are you, a little moist?

A little sweaty? Is that your problem? A little sweaty under your shirt? Your French is coming after your Fiji? Is that what you're scared of? Oh, that's what's going on. I see how you're doing. So, if you like that, let us know about it get on apple

podcast that purple icon give us five stars because that helps a ton we don't know why but it helps drive you up the charts something about it so there you go get on there please it does help a lot and uh say something we don't care what you say because it's not for our ego it's literally just to drive us up the charts and help on a business end. It's a favorite water. It is. And also on the business end, if you want to help, head over to shut up and give me murder.com because you can buy all your merchandise there. Everything you'd want to know about the shows, small town murder and crime and sports, which you should surely be listening to. You do not have to like sports.

No, it's not a show that's like it's a sports show. And then we talk about arrests. It's a show about fuck ups. And then we're like, that guy played sports. No. It's not a show that's like, it's a sports show. And then we talk about arrests. It's a show about fuck ups. And then we're like, that guy played sports. Can you believe it? Mainly. Can you believe he was rich and famous? And then he did all of this dumb shit.

Right. That's kind of the show for the most part. So listen to that. If you want to hear an idiot's fall from grace, that's how you hear it. Terrific. Check that out every Tuesday. And also listen to PSA Hate This Movie on Saturdays because I have to watch awful movies. So please listen to me rant about them. Check that out every Tuesday. And also listen to PSA Hate This Movie on Saturdays because I have to watch awful movies. So please listen to me rant about them.

Check that out. Do all that. Get all your merchandise on there. In addition to that, you definitely want to be on Patreon. Yeah. Patreon is cooking, man. We don't mess around on Patreon. I appreciate you listening.

Absolutely. And especially lately, we have really been going well with the Patreon. We have lots going on we did the uh we have old west murders coming up here on the new one we did love after lockup we did preview on the last one so much popping off here crime and sports we did we did the real goodfellas the week before we got so much crap on their worst wrestling characters coming up of all time so you get access to all of that for just the five dollar a month deal and uh anybody five dollars or above gets access to that in addition to that you get jimmy shouting you out at the end of the show

mispronouncing your name horribly which is fun because you're a producer now and that's how we show our love by destroying your family lineage i'm good as good and bad at it in his best effort that's the thing that's great about it so you can get all of that and do all that it's patreon.com slash crime and sports patreon.com slash crime and sports we cannot express to you enough how good our patreon episodes are is that arrogant yes it is yeah they're really funny listen to them check them out do that or if you just want to have good karma and be a producer have your name mispronounced by jimmy you can do that as well over at paypal using our email address crime in sports at gmail.com and good god could we not be more appreciative of everything you do for us you make our lives

you really do if you just want to follow on social media check out get all the new info and see when live shows are canceled and rescheduled and all that sort of shit you you can do that as well oh i fucking hate this oh man at murder small on twitter at small town pod on facebook and at smalltownmurder on Instagram. Check all that out. Follow us. Keep up with it. That said, after this craziness and everything else,

I need to hear the names of the most fantastic goddamn people who would never chop us up into so many pieces that our thigh bones were never found. Jimmy, hit me with those names right now. This week's executive producers are Jordan Bennett, Brian Harbour donated two ways. Thank you so much, Brian. Oh, my goodness.

Of course. Oh, yeah. That requires an explanation. Yeah, probably. I'm on the phone, everybody. It's a long, long story. Yeah. You guys are probably like, why would Jimmy be at the studio and I'm on the phone?

It's such a long explanation that we don't have time for it during. We'll get to it later. We'll get to it later. There's a reason why I am in a remote location. It doesn't matter. Jimmy has the shout out. I don't care where I am on the fucking moon. We'll figure it out.

I want the people. All right. The rest of the people executives this week are Joshua West, Natasha Patel, Sabrina Jones, Susanna Platt, Abby Artley, Amanda Jacobs, Jason Fuller. Sean Banner died, man. Oh, man. By the way, yes. I'm furious.

One of our story of Sean on Twitter and one of our original listeners. Yeah. And, man, we really, that kills us. We met him multiple times at live shows. What a guy. What a nice guy, and we really, really liked him. And anybody who met him, you guys, if you met him at live shows or whatever,

just to let you know that he passed away. An enormous personality. Just a sweetheart. What a heart of a man. He really was. What a great dude. A really nice guy. I'm going to miss him terrible. A teddy bear of a guy. He really was. What a great dude. I'm going to miss him terrible.

He's a teddy bear of a guy. Truly. Absolutely. Emily Roberts. Clay Thorson. Again, Clay is a goddamn hero. Thank you so much, Clay. Thank you.

Edward Lee. Sherlyn Hyde. George Nyman. Sean Galloway. Marie Cephas. Lisa Williams. Sepulveda of the Allison variety. Fern and Irma. no last names for either,

Andrew McClain, KG, and Tristan Whelan. Thank you guys so much. Truly, you're fucking amazing. Happy birthday this week, Kelly Danilovich and also Mackie. Both of them have birthdays. Say again. Happy birthday to you. My phone connection is awful and he just said

it was terrible uh going on other producers this week are ashley vio steve schnell april penley sarah de leon peyton meadows brendan ables joshua frank kur rabbi Shmulalovich, Zach Bunea, James Marder, Reagan Shulkley, Justin Zagorski, Cliff Martz, Happy Birthday Leslie Henderson, Janice Hill, Tim Holland, Carol Braun, Judd Spisdy, Georgia Metal Alliance, Howie Feltersnatch, Mariah Rasper, Milan Moore, Rachel Toko, Cindy Wilkin happy birthday Thomas DeMello

and there's also Dominic DeCoco and Marcos Garlami that's the guys from Inglorious Bastards Danelle Randall, welcome home Mark Tuan Lisface Lisfacy

Katie Miller Marcus Garfunkel, TJ Maxx birthday was last week. Happy birthday, TJ. Amanda Lupus, Scott Sousa, Bradley James Ward, Delaney Robert, Jacqueline Brown, Greg Rickendoller, Andrew Anderson, Kristen Schulman, Jack Yacklin, Jake Frazier. Nope, that's Jack Frazier. Andrew Heller, Peter Hanshaw, Joshua Hazelman, Julia Larson, Johnston Davis, Kevin Nesgota, Jimmy Noodle Legs, Haywood Jablomi, Danielle Vescaloni. We're all coming to the woodwork today.

I know. Suck your snatch, Jablomi's here. Good Lord. If Ben Dover comes to the party right now, I'm fucking... It's over, man. Daniel Vescalani, Lane Plauchet, Judy Anderson, Christina Baltes, Wade Steinpreis, Ronan D., Marcus Evans, Dana Brown, Ashley Livingston, Shalon, Shalen, Austin Jensen, Nathan Tipton, Danielle Bichina.

Nope. Patience. Patience. Racy? Rice? David Santana? Racy or Rice? Those are very different.

Cook Harkless? Michael and Joy Goodall Leonard? Luke Delmedico? What? Delmedico. Christine Ru ruxton like the teddy uh oh that was ruxpin brandon vernoi carrie clarty uh golden state theater jenny hendrickson karen morris jordan crim boss mark lati oh yes i'm just to go real slow. Josh Topp, Jen Leschese, Kaylee Jenkins, Nathan Wright, Melanie Curtis, JB9552, Jack Farrell, Joanna Bachhammer, Strongarm Tactics, Chris the Great, Ben White, Christina Stunkard, Ivania Cabrera, Jeremy Lupe, Chloe Hammonds,

Brie Alabama, Zach Cowan, Sheldon Stewart, Helena Souza, Whitney Pope, Sarah Grupe, Brandon Moe, Rochelle Largent, Jackie McDonald, Lyle Harrington, Eric Tycote, what else do we got here? Kristen Hansen, Sammy Mazzoli. Two fingers, dang it. Scroll like the wind, Jim. Chris Oster, Eric, and then also Eric Lovin, Keith Gillenwater,

Tiffany O'Grady, Shelby Gallagher, Lauren Delagardelli. Delag Gardelli? Della Gardelli? It's one of them, I think. Aaron with no last name. Cody Renau. Victor Valente. Spencer Battersby.

Jenna Nairn. Nathaniel Higgers. Alex Wilson. Tim Foley. Araz Zenjin. Don Walter. Julian Parney. James Calvert, Teresa Big, Joe G, Brendan Hine, hit him with the Hine, Kenny Cray, Laureen Gale Smith, Aaron Reichenbaugh,

oh boy is that German, Harrison Boone, Nicole Powers, Chukis75, Cliff Paquette, we met Cliff in fucking Boston I think, that guy's awesome, Christine with noette. We met Cliff in fucking Boston, I think. That guy's awesome. Christine with no last name. V. Moore, Jasper, Brooke Howard, Shelly Harrell, Darby, and Jason, no last names. Carson Murdoch, Kelsey W., Amanda Bose, Big Ben, Emma Lenore Garza, Braden Kukendall, Alicia Andrews, Melissa Pasola, Corey James Hode, Swest, Rochelle Amore, Kenny Johnson, Fruze with no last name,

Benjamin Williams, Cody with no last name, Chris Clary, Ryan Crichton, Derek Orr, Jonathan Vasquez, Lisa Fletcher, Stacy H., Stephanie Fuchihashi. He's on a roll. Yeah, Derek. Fuchihashi coming out like nobody's business. Derek Elizondo. Matt Easy Reader Parker. Was that Matt?

It is. Megan Halstead. Bianca Gambles. Chris Shear. Melanie Eide. Kristen Bradley. Scott Works. Alicia Novke.

Flora Sorrell. Mike Banning. Shelly with no last name. Jason Brinkman. Chad Thompson. Dustin with no last name. Benjamin Pearson. Andrew Soudin. What? No. Oh, you know what it is? It's, God damn it. That was my phone.

Arguetta. You have to have an alibi. Jay Sparks, Derek Heflin, Amy Driscoll, Zach Painter, Marquise Munson, Bob Richmond, Michael Gonzalez, James, nope, that's Kyle, James Parbell. Mark Samples, Amanda with no last name, Cortland Fierro, Isabel Kitkin, Nora Gonzalez, James, nope, that's Kyle, James Parbell, Mark Samples, Amanda with no last name, Cortland Fierro, Isabel Kitkin, Nora McIntosh, Callie Leo-Leos, Lucille the Drag Queen, Kia with no last name, Carrie Backey Hanson, Morgan Smith, Allie Rose, that's what that is, Josh Roy, Sue Paco, Ashley McKeever, Sam Simmers, Sue Paco, Ashley McKeever, Sam Simmers, Jake Frent, Marilyn Rogers, Sam and Rachel Christofferson. Yes.

It's hard to say Christofferson. God damn it. I can't have interruptions right now. I'm not turning you off, James. I'm hitting the fucking sound off. There we go. I can turn that off and you're still there, right? Yeah.

We're good. All right. Michael Papa. Yes. Michael Papa. Sam and Rachel. All right. Michael Papa. Yes. Michael Papa. Sam and Rachel Christofferson. Michael Papa. Gary Eubank.

I'm going to get past those two names. Madison Poletsky. Chris Larkins. Yes. Maria with no last name. Jack Griffin. Shane Spigner. Sarah Bruneski. Randy Diaz.

Holly Catherine Jackson. Jennifer Luehngrith. Bobby Tornier, Erica Martinez, Jason Williams, Alexandria Ketchpa, what did you say? Tornier. Yeah, I think that's right. Matt A., Kimberly Cooey, Ben Merrill, Dustin Cochin, Ruben Lee Racchiero. Never going to get it. Tracy Vaughn, Eric Grisham, Wynn with no last name, Jed Lynch, Jacob Tietke, Heather with no last name, Fritz with no last name, Regina Beth Cole,

Eric Paulson, Cody Jaggers, Christian Parrish, TheLionKing34, Ray Harbin, James Wigruch, Kate Hawkins, Coliner marvin masubo mike clues uh elizabeth harrell amy lee uh nicholas myers denet lynn miguel robles two brothers lawn service kubi with no last name david troyer uh like verne verne troyer uh stephen smith dissociated dissociated podcast Steven Smith, Dissociated Podcast. Lindy with no last name. Justin Goetz. Rita. Valid Jarvie.

Chris Stansel. Megan Cope. Vanessa Fuentes. Spradley. Ryan Grillo. Natasha Czar. Louise. Victoria Stille.

Katie Witherington. Justin Roth. Dara Omeng. Amanda Gall, Daniel Tavernet, WorkHors, Chris Nova, Melissa Knight, Amom Solis, Paul Carper, Music Lost in Thought, Lee Ashburn, Brian Verblau, Leslie Goodwin, Mackenzie Whalen, Shadon Smith, Laura Flan, Lou with no last name. I hope it's that teacher that I had. Lou, Tracy Becker, Barry Sanderson, Christina with no last name, Tedder with no last name, David Drescher, like Fran, Victoria Peregrin, Kay Fletch, Kimberly Ledford, Sam Coakley, Christina D'Ambra, Jennifer Mentor, Nathan Balfry, Shannon Schaefer, Sandy with no last name, Aaliyah Ziminez, Rick, nope, that's Nick, Rose Tower, Marsha Big, Matt Giambruno, Justin Judd, Honey Helms, Matthew Martin Matthew Martin Michael Stewart Matt Shifflett Cody Cochran

That's a tough one Amanda Jacobs Jed Greig Amy McFarland Lucy End Laura LaCour John Oaksendall Melissa Khaleesi

Cartwright Derzinski Dispelbound I don't know Oh, somebody didn't leave a name at all Oh you know what it was It was all Chinese letters And I'm not going to try to read those So that's part of their email

Dispelbound Michelle Hayes I did the creative right Karen Harris Samuel Moffat Heidi Wilson Justin Scott Kyle Gwinnett

Alicia Borjali Gaia, Grant with no last name, Dan Lennigan, Latasha Boxley, French Toast Mashed Potatoes, that's disgusting, what the fuck, Bethany Gravel, Tanner Winnocki, Bobby Grand, Melano Barrell, Darius A., Nikki Sinfield, Amanda Zilnicki, Don Murray, Libby Baxter, Shannon Baxter, Jason Lewis, Kayla Kruski, Nicholas, Nicholas. Nicholas? That's the new pavela there, Nicholas. Nicholas Vabra. Nicholas is a very exotic man. Hey, Nick. No, no, it's Nicholas. It's a matter of time. Don't call me Nick.

Caitlin Stevenson, Sergeant Brannon, Bill Pagano, Josef and Bianca Bryant are June and Big Saint to you and all of our patrons. You guys are truly amazing thank you so much we went out of our way for you god damn it because you guys mean something to us and we want to make sure that we acknowledge it and thank you so so much thank you everybody so much honestly we cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us you're you make the show we'll just put it that way we don't even care if nobody wanted to

put an ad on the show or anything like that which we would still be doing it just for you because that's how a warm hug every one of you thank you what if they wanted to give you a warm social media hug how could they find you at wisman sucks whisman sucks on twitter and instagram and thank you so much uh happy valentine's day what about what about you uh you can find me over at at jimmy p is funny or you can just copy and paste my you know how to fucking find people on the internet small town murder hosts you'll find us with that said i think it's time to get out of here to celebrate a fantastic valentine's day hopefully in a more romantic way than these folks have chosen to do in our story.

What do you say to that? But I think it's time until next week, everybody. It's been our pleasure. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.