Small Town Murder - #214 - Shot, Stabbed, Beaten, Cut & Chained - Chickasha, Oklahoma

Episode Date: March 11, 2021

This week, in Chickasha, Oklahoma, a twisted & cruel plot emerges after a body is found, brutalized, and chained to concrete blocks, in the river. Part revenge, part blood thirsty attack, this murder is nothing short of one for the ages. Once the whole story comes out, things get even weirder when nobody can seem to figure out exactly who did what, and how they should pay! Along the way, we find out that it seems strange to celebrate tornados, when they are a constant threat, that teenagers do not make great members of your hit team, and that when everyone involved has an animal nickname, things are always messy! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts# See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events, told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Chickasha, Oklahoma, a wild, brutal and twisted plot emerges after a body is found shot, stabbed, beaten, cut and tied to a chunk of concrete in the river. The question is who here really gets what they deserve? Welcome

to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us once again today for another wild crazy. And we'll tell you this one is an extra crazy. There's like an extra loop in this roller coaster.

It is nuts. This is a crazy case as if last week wasn't crazy. We say it every week. We should just stop saying it because it's you know what you're going to get when you tune into this show? A crazy, crazy story, period. That's it. So it's going to, it's never just a standard, well, you know, there was a little disagreement and then there was that and it's over.

No, it's always going to be messed up. Custody battle, somebody's dead. Something is happening. Yeah, no, nothing like that. But just quickly, just want to get out of the way here. Thank you for everyone who's helped out this week in every single way. Your reviews on Apple Podcasts, that purple icon, they count. Why?

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really just for business. So thank you so much. Also, shut up and give me murder.com right now. Check it out. All sorts of merchandise, new stuff up all the time. If you hear something crazy go on, there'll probably be a T-shirt about it pretty soon. So check on that and check everything out there. Also check out patreon.com slash crime and sports for all of your bonus content. Oh my goodness, so much, so much bonus content. The last weeks, which you can still get, obviously, you can get the whole back catalog if you subscribe, but you get it for both shows. The crime and sports one was Danny Almonte, who was the Little League pitcher in the Little League World Series.

National darling who turned out to be not quite a Little Leaguer. Almost an adult. A little older than a Little Leaguer, we'll say. So that was a crazy story. And then the small town murder one, and that guy was out of his mind. We had a family tree that was more like a, what do we call it, a family hibiscus. Like a family bougainvillea., like a family bougainvillea. It's a good bougainvillea.

There's thorns and the flowers are useless. It's a mess. So check that out. A wild case out of Oregon. And this week coming up or the next week, the next episode of Bonus will be the prisoner dating game. Yes. My God. It's back again.

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right and with that said the disclaimer it's a comedy show everybody yeah comedy show first and foremost but also well it's not first and foremost it's one a one and one a with getting it right also it's not a we don't make anything up so it's funnier nothing like that we all the facts are real we go to painstaking lengths to make sure that everything is real and everything like that uh that that's how we do things so we also go out of our way to make sure not to make fun of the victim or the victim's family we try our best because we're assholes but well we're not scumbags that's that's how that works why do that so if you think that sounds great man are we gonna have fun

because it's a wild story if not you think you know true crime and comedy should never go together maybe we're not for you yeah who knows you should give it a shot because we might maybe we are but uh no complaining if we're not that's what we're saying you run a long little doggie that's what we're saying so for everybody else that wants to hear a crazy story and uh have a good time i think it's time to sit back and shout shut up and give me murder let's do this jimmy i love it j James. Let's go on a trip, shall we? I'd like that. We're coming from Fishkill. I'm coming out of my home there, my hometown, and heading to Oklahoma.

Let's go down. A lot of people did that. From New York to Oklahoma. Tons of people. They ran to that west, and then wagon trains broke down mules died and they were stuck yeah not so much from new york though no more i'm sure a lot did still more more of the more southern 10 is a lot james i'll bet 10 did it 10 10's a good amount you're right it's too many if 10 people were trying to break into your house you'd call the cops and go there's a good amount. You're right. That's too many. If 10 people were trying to break into your house, you'd call the cops and go, there's a lot of people trying to break into my house.

That's a good point. How many? I don't know. A lot. A whole bunch. They're covering every window and entry and door. There are what I would call several, sir. You're right.

That's plenty. Let's just say plenty. Okay? 911. There's plenty of people trying to break into my house. Plenty. It's an odd number. So we're going to Chickasha Oklahoma

okay it's spelled c-h-i-c-k-a-s-h-a so they really definitely want you to be confused here yeah I would say that's really opening the door for y'all to correct us on a lot of things yeah I feel like this is definitely one we're like're like, let's leave something off the end. Let's make sure it's ambiguous. It's a conversation starter. Yeah. Everyone's going to get it wrong. Let's start these conversations off real aggressive, like you pronounced it wrong.

Hey, you're wrong. Nice to meet you. I'm Bob. Thanks for coming. You're wrong. You wrong asshole so this is in central oklahoma people love that they love to correct you that's their favorite there's nothing more than fucking being right it's amazing to correct on something as a pronunciation

that nobody except the few thousand people that live there care about is the greatest thing in the world so it's awesome so this is central oklahoma kind of leaning toward the southwest of oklahoma a little bit it's not far from dean texas a couple weeks ago to be honest with you here yeah it's about 45 minutes to oklahoma city about three hours and 15 minutes to dallas down in that direction and it's only 31 minutes to mustang oklahoma which was our last oklahoma episode episode 180 with uh that was a while that was a wild one with the woman who killed her husband and was like i think a guy broke in and then drove away i don't know that was a good one um anyway this is in grady County, area code 405. It's a big area, 22 square miles.

So all of these areas are huge because it's just spread out so much. You can't. I feel like anybody who lives in Oklahoma or Texas and has like a normal lot, like a third of an acre or a quarter acre, I feel like they really just are sad. Definitely not living up to your fucking Texas, Oklahoma potential. They feel down on themselves, you know, because I was watching House Hunters and this guy had his bachelor pad and it was on 10 acres. I was like, Jesus Christ, that's a lot for you, sir. That's a lot.

That's a lot. You know what I mean? Like, how many women do you expect to be having over? It was a small house. It was just a small house in the middle of a lot of dirt. And he's like, I love the view. And it's just nothing. It's just, it's wild.

I love how much shit I can see. Yeah. Town motto of Chickasha. I mean, like you said, it's aggressive. It's, it's right in your face. Quote, pronounce that motherfucker. So they're getting right in your face. Quote, pronounce that, motherfucker. Get into it.

They're getting right off the bat. Like they're throwing the gauntlet down. You got to really get into it. History of this town. A brief history here. Chickasha was founded by Hobart John Stone Whitley. Sounds like a real party guy. Hobart is a first name.

Hobart. We're naming him Hobart. Okay, honey honey let's put that on the birth certificate no matter whose idea was that like the one of the people the father the mother one of them had to decide that that was fine they were going to allow their kid to be named hobart that wasn't a mutual decision that's bad news that's like my grandfather was hobart and his grandfather before him was Hobart. And every time mom looks at that kid, she fucking hates him. Can we call him Bart? No!

He's Hobart! It's a family name. It's a family name. He was a land developer, banker, farmer, and Rock Island Railroad executive. That's a lot of shit to get into jesus christ when did this guy sleep what the hell is going on the founding of this town took place in 1892 when the chicago rock island and pacific railways all built a track through what was then indian territory and so they said fuck it let's put a post office in may as well which is june of 1892 one of the

earliest industrial plants to come here was the chickashay cotton oil company which established itself in 1899 so right away we're getting into factories and shit the chickashay when it was founded was loaded located in ponto pontotoc county uh which was the chickasaw nation's actual thing and they were like well chickasaw we'll call it chickashay maybe we'll try to bastardize what they have going on fucking golden ark what is that yeah that's that that's it's mcdowell's exactly what that is instead of the big. Instead of the Big Mac, we got the Big Mick. Instead of the Big Chick, we got the Big Check. That's what that is.

What the fuck is that? God damn it. So in 1908, the Oklahoma Industrial Institute and College for Girls was established in Chickasha. Oh. Yeah. It sounds very progressive. It does. How much you want to bet it isn't? They just left the words unwed mothers off of it.

That's what I mean. Yeah. It's like a place where if you get pregnant at a wedlock, they send you there and then you have to give your child to nuns to be raised or something. That's how it works. It's Industrial Institute for Girls. Industrial Institute for Girls back then probably went, this is how you wash dishes better. Yeah. dishes better yeah this is how you know like it's a real nice way to say forced labor yeah like it sounds wonderful but you're like i don't know but a local rancher

named jb sparks donated the land for the school in memory of his daughter nelly uh she was a chickasaw descendant and the land had been part of her allotment. Okay. So he gave it to them. In her memory after he beat her to death for leaving food on the table. Yeah, that or I think she had a date with a black guy possibly. I'm not sure. Or a guy at all. Or a guy at all. I'm not positive.

We can't be sure. No. She talked to a boy out in the back of church at one point, and I feel like that's what It's in her memory. So the Nellie Sparks Dormitory commemorated her, and they renamed the school the Oklahoma College for Women in 1916. Get rid of the industrial. It became coeducational in 1965 and renamed the Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts, and

then renamed again in 1975 when Oklahoma realized that nothing there is liberal. They said, what are we doing? Jesus, we can't have that there. Nothing's liberal nor artsy. No, neither. So it was renamed. Well, they make dream catchers, I'm sure, a lot. Yeah, I'm sure.

Those are one of those, probably. Those are begrudgingly loved, begrudgingly hung from their rear view. Yeah, and I know that there's a lot of Native American art there. These are obviously- Oh, yeah. Oh, God. These are not who attends this school. Tons of cool shit.

That's not what we're talking about. So it was renamed again in 1975, the University of Science and Arts of Oklahoma. Oh. I believe that's what it is now. So during World War II, the Wilson and Bone Fees Flying School opened in October of 1941 to train cadets of the U.S. Army Air Force. So that was there. And over 8,000 cadets completed training there during World War II. So that was helpful, I guess, the war effort.

war effort. After the war, the facility became the Chickasha Municipal Airport, which is normal for military airports when they've outlived their usefulness to be taken over by civilians. Also, during the war, this is kind of fucked up all this. During the war, the army built and used Borden General Hospital, which is fine. The site now contains Grady Memorial Hospital. Very cool. Five Oaks Medical Group, Southern Plain Medical Center, and Borden Park. So that was all built by the Army. That's good. They also built a prisoner of war camp there

established in 1944. And then when they were done with that, and up until now still, it is the site of the Grady County Fairgrounds. you go there and you get yourself a big fried i don't know some shit that's been fried that shouldn't be right ride that has duck tape all over it yeah you it's well satanic bill right fucking checks your your ferris wheel because

that's what he did that's how everybody met him so that's who that's who works at carney's so as you get like a roast beef sandwich deep fried yeah we have to tell you uh that this was a prisoner of war camp that was a very sad place before you and your children decided to have joy here unbelievable by the way since you popped three balloons with that dart, here is a death leopard mirror. There you go. You've won that. Enjoy. It says hysteria. Enjoy.

It absolutely says hysteria. You'd like that. Also, here's a knockoff stuffed Barney. There you go. Even though no one's heard of Barney in 25 years. Your kids won't know who the fuck it is, but there you go. Enjoy. We call him Blarney.

He just doesn't have his green spots. That's all. He's just like Barney, but with a shamrock on him. He's Blarney. Comes out for St. Patrick's Day. All his green spots are in the shape of shamrock. That's all it is, because he's Blarney. Congratulations on getting your basketball through our bent hoop enjoy everybody

god damn it i hate carnivals i hate them a lot so especially when they were when they're on prisoner of war campgrounds i hate them even worse jesus Jesus Christ. So in 1999, Chickasha was hit by an F2 tornado. Oh, no. Which sucks. Which, I mean, in this area, this is kind of, it's a matter of time. You're rolling the dice every day there. It really is. F2 doesn't sound that strong.

Helen Hunt survived an F5 in a fucking gardening shack. Well, clearly, if you have a belt on you, you'll be fine. Right. You just need that leather strap. You're going to be all right. Tight to the water pipe. Yeah. Even if you're wearing warm-up pants,

just slap a leather belt over the top of it just in case. I feel like everyone has one handy there. Warm-up pants and a sick wife beater with no bra. Get into it. Just get a leather strap. You'll be all right. I'm telling you, everybody there is beginning a tornado season. It's like, all right, everybody got their storm cellars ready.

You got your belts. Don't go out this house without a belt now. Tell their kids. Beans and rice in the storm cellar and grab your Levi's belts. Just tons of belts. I have some reviews of this town yeah and i'm going to start a thing where if there's a if there's good reviews i'm going to give a really good review too so we got to give balance to the whole thing okay and you can see so here's a five-star review they love

this place the town of chickasha is a basic oklahoma town people here like high school football on friday nights and going to church on sundays with an apostrophe by the way yeah um so if you are looking for a quiet place to settle down this is a good place to be i'm reading it exactly stop that that's what it says in the title good it's a good place now the s is next to the d on the keyboard so you might have just you know they might have just did one of those we're not going to blame it on the education system in here. But this sounds like a great place if you like shit like that. If you're me, this sounds like a nightmare. This sounds like I'd rather be in a prisoner of war camp than have to go to watch children play football on Friday night and then go to church on Sunday. That sounds awful.

But a lot of people like that. And if you like that, good for you. I don't know. Enjoy. What do you want? Here's a three-star review. Great small town has the basic commodities like Walmart, McDonald's,

et cetera. All you need. The people you will meet are mostly friendly. Cool downtown area. Super cool with that McDonald's and that Walmart. Just hang out in front of it sounds cool you know like real fucking hip uh here's three stars chicashe is a very safe place to be minus the occasional mishaps you know a place is half decent when they call crime mishaps when a family of four was murdered that's a map. That's the damn mishaps that happen with the fucking murders all the time.

Remember when that family of four was butchered alive? Yeah. Mishaps. It's a son of a bitch. It really is. I don't know why mishaps is making me so happy. Well, this is like a Lee Bryce music video. So it sounds like, I don't know who that is.

I assume he's a country guy he is is it yeah yeah i figured he is figured he has a hat and stuff yeah if i mention him uh and as a music video about a town probably country probably yeah if i don't know who it is it's country so yeah that's the other part of that of that if it's a reference that i mentioned about a town and you don't know who he is he's probably country it's probably going to be country yeah i would say so uh something i think that could improve is some of the stoplights around town i don't know if they're they want to get rid of them too short improve them they don't oh here we go sometimes i'll be sitting at a light with no other cars

around quote for longer than i should be okay that's it i'm fucking it's i was there slightly longer than i should be jimmy that was no it doesn't give a time reference of like i don't know a minute two minutes how long how long is too long sir i mean it must be it must be decent if that's the picky shit here. Three stars. Chickasha is a town where anything and almost anything can happen. Oh, my. Wow, it's hot.

Here's another question, though, for that fella. You're sitting at a red light and there's no other cars. Why are you sitting at a red light? That's on you, my man. Fucking go. Yeah, what are we doing? Well, maybe there's cameras there like in Arizona. Fuck them.

What are they going to do? You get tickets. You pay a ticket now. Make right make a u-turn make another right do something back around it pull figure it out but apparently this is a huge problem in chicago uh living in chicago can be a scary place almost anything can happen uh there is crime in the town but it's not that bad just mishaps apparently yeah the town of but it's not that bad. Just mishaps, apparently. The town of Chickasha has a few fun things to do, such as bowling and laser tag. Whoa. Jesus.

I would think that if we had less food places and more fun things to get us out doing stuff instead of eating the town. Instead of eating the town? Wow. Instead of eating the town of Chickasha. Oh, they just missed a comma there. Eating, comma, the town of Chickasha could possible be more healthier. Okay. Oh, wow.

Oh, my. We have a few playgrounds and a library. Then there is a thrift store for more affordable clothing. They already mentioned Walmart. The town of Chickasha is very small, but it is very living with people. It is very living with people, Jimmy. So there's that. And here's the sole one-star review I could find. One sentence, very to the point. Quote, the weather here will surprise you. Oh.

Oh, very mysterious. One star. That could go so many ways. Right? I'm intrigued. I think that's what they're doing's they're trying to intrigue you into asking more uh people from this town cleavon little is from here stop it fuck yes cleavon little's from chickasha he was born in chickasha jimmy cleavon little if you don't know who cleavon little is he is fucking sheriff bart in blazing saddles he is uh and a lot of other things he's a great actor oh my god hilarious i loved him he's most commonly known for

once bitten is one of his best oh my god so good great in there he's hilarious once bitten i love i love that movie it's such a piece of shit i used to watch it yes constantly yes such a bad movie and so good watched it constantly as a kid constantly you know what we're gonna do that for ps i hate this movie this week oh my god it's so good doing one spitting jimmy i i love jim carrey as a young man before we find out how weird he is and how funny is well him it's really discovering jim carrey him trying to play like just a straight role where he's not jim carrey and just going off is funny because he'll never you don't really ever get to see that again. Right.

It doesn't happen. It takes so long to get to the Truman Show. Well, yeah. Once in living color hits, it's Ace Ventura and the mask and all that shit. Right. So population of this town, people, 16,256 people. Decent amount. I mean, it's that close to Oklahoma City driving distance so sure this can be a suburb more females than males which is odd and kind of a rural area it's usually the opposite

but this is like 52 to 48 median age is right in line with the rest of the country 37 about 37 and a half few less married people than usual here which is odd um i don't get why usually these type of areas are more uh the divorce rates higher almost double i don't know what to make of that more widowed people so they will find a way out of marriage one way or the other i like in this town yeah one way or the other they're getting out of this shit um and uh race of this town 74 74.6% white. So it's normally about 62%. 6.1% black. 0.6% Asian. So not many Asians there.

2.6% Native American. Really? Yeah, actually way more than the normal. And then 9.4% Hispanic here. Religious, Jesus, 47.5% are religious, which is way lower than Mustang, forty seven and a half percent are religious which is way lower than Mustang which was only a half hour away that was like sixty five percent or something I don't know what to make of that most of the people of twenty seven point five percent of the people here are Baptists yeah as we know Baptists are the Catholics of the tornado belt. The dizzy Catholics.

Yes. Catholics with belts. That's what they are. This is a Catholic Dorothy country. I like it. That's what it is. 0.0% Jewish, which is kind of crazy for over 16,000 people.

That's wild, isn't it? 0.0% Muslim. This county in Grady County, last election, 17% voted Democrat and 77% voted Republican. That's interesting. About 5% independent. Unemployment rate here is about normal, but the income is not that great. Normally, it's about $57,500 in the rest of the country. Here, the median household income is $40,376.

It's low. All the income levels are low. A lot of families make under $40,000 a year. Luckily, it's kind of cheap to live here. The cost of living is $100 would be regular average. Here, it's about 78. And some of the things are high, like health care is really high here for some reason. But the home cost is low.

Housing is a 31 out of 100. Very low. Median home cost here, Jimmy, 71,400 bucks. What is that? Why are the homes so affordable in the places where a tornado can destroy you'd think that they'd be i think you just answered your own question strong you know what i mean i think you just well they're not i think you just answered your own question yeah i get it but you'd think that they would build them unbelievably strong making them unbelievably

valuable right so then so who the hell would move to the middle of a dusty plain in Oklahoma to buy an $800,000 three-bedroom house? Steel house. No one's doing that. No one's moving there. Yeah, I guess you got a point. You'd be fucked. Drill your foundations 20 feet deep and build that fucker out of I-beams and steel. You build your pile of shit and you get your bingo card out and hope your number's not called.

That's all you can do. That's it. I mean, that's it i mean that's it it's like if you're living in an earthquake area it's the same thing you build your house you can try to get your foundation as good as it's going to be but let's face it if a 8.5 hits a lot of this shit's going to fall down that's all there is to it i mean the ground's literally fucking shaking violently we can only build it cheap as fuck, make it look decent, and then have insurance. And who gives a fuck?

And when it blows away, you go, well, shit. Good thing I got insurance. That's it. So almost 80% of the houses here are worth under $150,000. My God. So it's a low thing.

And you know what? We've convinced you. You need this. We have for you the Chickasha, Oklahoma real estate report. Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for about 700 bucks a month. So that's way less. It's about 1,300 in the rest of the country.

So pretty low. That's way less. It's about 1,300 in the rest of the country, so pretty low. I found a two-bedroom, one-bath, 744-square-foot house that looks condemned, would be the best way to put it, I guess. The cover of an Eminem CD? It really does. It looks like, yeah, absolutely. It has dark pink carpet in the bathroom.

What? It could be blood. I'm not sure. I was just about to ask you, are you sure? It could be an attempt to clean blood off of a white carpet. And now it's a light pink, rosy looking carpet. Holy shit. In the bathroom, around the toilet, Jimmy. No!

Around the toilet. Imagine how much urine is collected in there over the years. A little darker ring right around the toilet right but absolutely thirty eight thousand dollars for this oh my that's something um here's one two bedroom two bath 1505 square feet okay now from the outside it looks like a house it's built and it's got you know stuff on it and siding and it's painted and there's doors and windows. Inside, it's just framed. It's just framed with raw subfloor.

Kind of new. No counters. It's literally, you've got to put drywall up. Not done yet, but. Totally not. I think it's gutted, though. I don't think it's an older house. It is 2.33 acres, too, though, that it sits on.

$53,500. My Christ, that's so cheap. Could be worth the project if you're into that sort of thing. Then I found a three-bedroom, three-bath, 1,620 square feet. It's brick. Jimmy, there's your tornado holder. There you go. It's going to hold right up.

You can put your belt around this house. It's a decent house, $129,900. So that's the difference. How many square feet? 2,000? 16, 20. Okay. It's doable.

Yeah. Yeah, but that's why it's a little more expensive, though, because that's a more sturdy house. Little figs, Ben. Yeah. People are going to look at that and then go, hmm, I could rip that carpet up from around that toilet for $38,000. And that's what happens, you know, because it's just so much cheaper. It's the thing.

Things to do here. The Festival of Lights. Oh. Which should be in parentheses, not Hanukkah. Yeah. Because they don't mean that, but they say that. Also, not Disneyland. Yes.

I feel like it's a trap. But apparently it's received many prestigious awards, including the Regional Event of the Year. I don't know who gives that out. How big is that region? Regional Event of the Year. An ABA Top 100 event. Again, who the fuck knows? National Top 25 Holiday Event.

Festival of the Year. Best Community Festival Event. And Best Place to take out of town visitors they're they're winning the good ones james yeah i don't know if the same high school newspaper gave out all those awards or just some of them or one festival contest and then here's another place that i love the muscle car ranch all right where they raise the fine they raise and breed the finest muscle cars in the southwest jimmy raise what i'm about to do i'm gonna get this 79 uh duster uh over here to uh artificially inseminate this 69 nova that's right see we raise

them up from little hybrids till they become big old muscle cars. Big old strong muscle cars. Then we slaughter them. Just for the fun of it. Then we drive it drunk down the road, and that's what we call slaughtering it. They have concerts there at this place. Back in the day, they had, you know, in the birds and the paul revere and the raiders jefferson airplane all this type of shit bad company back in the day which is an odd one to throw in the mix there it's all it's all muscle car shit it's what people that have muscle cars

listen to absolutely like bad company fuck yes sing it um from all they have a a swap meet there as well so they have a large swap meet that meets there you got to have that and then finally they have a three-day weekend music festival there called twister fest let's celebrate our ultimate demise everyone stop this that's amazing they celebrate a there's no earthquake fest in la no no there't. That's like being on death row and having lethal injection fest. We're all going to party. It's going to take us all.

We're going to have a death row party. All Tupac songs and then Metallica's Ride the Lightning. We're playing it all. Oh, man. It says to come join us and be a part of the cyclone that is Twister Fest. No, stop this.

Don't celebrate this. Hey, it's going to get dark with that. Jesus Christ. Shit, man. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here, property crime a little bit high. It's about 20% above the national average, so a little high. 20 percent above the national average so a little high and then violent crime murder rape robbery and assault as we all know the mount rushmore of crime is about 25 percent higher than the national average so it's fucking dangerous here somehow i don't know how james they're ruthless

people they celebrate tornadoes so that said that they're they're an aggressive people who celebrate tornadoes celebrate the cause of their ultimate demise. Let's talk about a murder. All right. Seems only proper and appropriate, isn't it? I feel like this is definitely a town that is not going to be pissed that we mention it. I hope not. I mean, I feel like we gave it whatever do it was.

We gave it its five star review. I don't know. For me, I can only hurry up and get the murder over so we can it whatever do it was. We gave it its five-star review. I don't know. What do you want from me? Otherwise, I can only do what I can do. Hurry up and get the murder over so we can talk about Rock and Roll Ranch. What was it? Muscle Car Ranch. Oh, I'll talk about Muscle Car Ranch again.

I'll tell you what, boy. You see those little muscle cars running around. It just warms your heart. You just know they're going to grow up someday and make somebody very happy. And it's just like, mm-hmm. Expecting a new litter come next month. Oh, they're coming. It's going to be beautiful.

Bunch of little cults. So. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. Bye-bye. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery+, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced.

She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent VB Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law,

her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+.

Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched.

He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus in the wondery app or on apple podcasts

first of all in this murder let's talk about a fella shall we let's talk about a guy named charles keen k-e-e-N-E. Okay. Keene. Charles Keene. Nobody calls him Charles, though. Chuckie. You think people call him Charles? No, not Chuck either. Chuck? Chip?

Chuckie? No. Chaz? I don't think so. Buck is what they call him. Okay. At least it rhymes with the common nickname. Yeah.

So he's Buck Keene. Okay. Whatever. Everyone, there's a lot of people in this story with animal nicknames i don't know what it is about oklahoma or what's going on here yeah but everyone's got an animal nickname that just everyone calls him that so i get buck here buck keen uh buck was born may 5th Okay. And we are going to catch up with Buck in the early 80s, early 1980s. So we're going to go back a little bit of time. Everyone's hair is nice and feathered.

Yeah. Here we go. He's in his late 20s, yes? Oh, yeah. Mullets reign supreme in this era. Oh, yeah. In every region. But in Oklahoma, I feel like the mullets are going to be harder.

Harder and faster. I think this is where um cyrus's billy ray is from i think he's from oklahoma isn't he i don't know he's that hairdo seems that is talking about that is yeah the yeah 1994 achy breaky hair that i feel like is happening big time for 1980 in the early 80s here so buck has been married to and divorced from a woman named Vicki Thompson. Vicki Lynn Thompson, to be exact. Of course. Vicki Lynn.

Vicki Lynn. So Vicki Lynn Keene now. She's going by. So Vicki Lynn here. They were married. They have two small children, both boys at this point, in 1983. Okay. So, you know, it didn't work out

though they broke up and uh they got divorced but somehow i don't know what happened but by the time january 1983 comes around he is living with vicky and the kids again even though yeah buck is back yeah they're not together they're still divorced and it's what it is man it's the sitcom that followed sitcom called achy breaky heart and buck is back please no one make buck is back i beg of you i think one john hughes whether you like his movies or not one thing that he did that was wonderful is he said, no one's ever remaking my shit. Yeah, it's done. Just not.

It's my estate isn't allowed to fucking sell my shit to be remade. Yeah. Nothing can be remade unless I want it to fucking be remade. And that's I know they made 45 Home Alones, but you don't see like, you know, the lunch club now. Like it's a sequel. And it's a bunch of a bunch of chicks in detention, because that's what it would be now, just a bunch of 16-year-old girls in detention who figure out how to, I don't know, rig the stock market to their advantage or some crazy shit.

Listen, you got to get that, the mid-30s, going through a divorce, rom-com, Beauty in Black. Yeah, that's what I mean. So, no, not happening. I like that. Yeah, Molly Ringwald now, she's divorced. It's a pissed off girl with an oxy habit. She's like 52 years old.

Yeah, she's like 52 years old. Three times divorce, two kids. Bottle of rosé under her desk at work. Box of Franzia waiting for her at home. It's really a sad state of affairs. Things have gone awry. Washing down an oxy at lunch. Imagine what Judd Nelson's character would look like now.

Oh, God. Damn it. Just fat and bald and covered in beer stains. Just the guy from Airheads because that's what he was. Yeah, good call. That radio stack. Perfectly, yeah. He was just playing himself yeah there you go

future future me so uh they're divorced uh now the problem is the reason why they're divorced is buck is not very nice to vicky um buck oh for years the reason they got divorced is because buck beat the shit out of vicky oh many many times it's a a known thing in the family and everything like that not to mention she's got like brothers and cousins and relatives all around he's beaten up uh her younger brother who was a like a early teenager and you know like 13 12 years old he beat her he you know buck beat him up too that's uh william wayne thompson who goes by wayne yeah so wayne thompson that's uh he's gotten the shit beaten out of him at this point too he's 15 years old in 1983 and pissed off at buck sure for now he's back he's back with my sister he's you know messing with her again right so and he beat me up my jaw

yeah exactly god damn it head out to muscle car ranch for some training so um uh also a couple other people in the mix here are danny man and anthony james man so tony man so danny man and tony man are also uh vicky's brothers so i assume different father or whatever but they're also her brothers so she's got a bunch of brothers here anthony james man is 27 years old tony man so um tony has had some issues in the past nothing huge but some stuff uh his record at this point consists of second degree burglary at one point uh and a charge of possession of marijuana so i mean the burglary is bad but i don't really care about the weed he received a deferred sentence and a suspended sentence and an application for revocation of the suspended sentence based on a claim that he concealed a concealed more stolen property

being a pistol was done too so he's had he's had some run-ins with the law. Yeah. Just kind of a local. This is Tony. Yeah. Local fuck up. Those, those charges and his name is Anthony. He should go by Ant-Man.

That is fantastic. That's perfect. His last name is Man? That's incredible. Man. Ant-Man. Yep. That's the guy.

Anthony James, but he goes by Tonyony instead he's just tony man because he is double n yeah comic books yeah yeah there you go so um anyway on the afternoon of january 22nd 1983 uh danny man and anthony james man tony man uh they show up to Vicky and Buck's trailer. I'm sorry. I'm such a child. I can't get over Dan. Dan Man and Ant Man is the greatest duo of brothers ever. The kid Dan Man. His middle name should just be The. Danny Man and Anthony James Man.

So Aunt Jimmy Man and Dan Mann are the two. Yeah, I don't know what the hell. And Vicki Lynn. I looked at a case. Oh, never mind, because we might do that case. I was going to say that. I was looking at one case, and the guy had the craziest. The guy in this case, not this one, but a different one's name was Billy Mike.

And I'm like, Billy Mike? No, you can't be Billy Mike. That just means there was a lot of Billys. Right. And you got to be Billyy mike because that's your middle name just to set you apart and know when we're talking to you it's fucking hilarious like billy mike no so uh dan man and ant man they show up with vicky to the trailer this is vicky and and buck's trailer right to retrieve vicky's car which is there so seems like a simple operation two brothers and a sister go to retrieve her car do you think they got the car from buck no so well no they don't because buck chases ant man

and dan man out of vicky's trailer with a butcher knife wow oh yeah y'all get the fuck on out of Vicky's trailer with a butcher knife. Wow. Oh, yeah. Y'all get the fuck on out of here. You didn't call me Buck for nothing. And he just went after him. With a knife. With a butcher knife. Yeah. He chased him. This is the funny part.

Buck's got a knife. Ant-Man's charged with theft. Theft, weapons, everything else. This shit is unbelievable. I always picture, what if a neighbor's looking out the window this is my number one thing with shit like this when there's a crazy scene yeah imagine this scene you go out the window looks normal they pull up in the car yeah vicky

gets out she lives there so that's normal she's got her two brothers with her you've probably seen them before yeah they get out of the car they go into the trailer door closes behind them you don't hear anything obviously you're across the street and then all of a sudden the door swings open people burst from it running like it's on fire with one of the men chasing with a fucking butcher knife into the yard how awesome would that be to watch obviously you don't want anybody to get hurt but that's awesome that's better than a tv show if you saw that on live pd you'd go that's the best episode i've ever seen buck's got a knife you guys this is crazy this is great guys right come here everyone hold on hit the hit the record so uh so uh he chased him out of the

trailer trailer with a butcher knife so after this encounter they actually did the right thing dan man ant man and vicky rather than like you know going somewhere to retrieve a bazooka and seek revenge on him by you know blowing the trailer to pieces or some crazy shit like that they actually went to the deputy sheriff's office oh great wow this never happens in our stories. No one ever does the right thing. So they went there. They said, look, he's in the house. They you know, he's he beats the shit out of her all the time. We go to get the car and he chased us out with a fucking butcher knife. And the sheriff said, nothing we can do about it.

What? That's a nothing can be done, right? No, they said nothing can be done. He was in his house if he didn't want you there i mean oh their castle doctrine is so strong he chose an odd way to eject to ask you to leave but i mean it's kind of up to him how he wants so we had a knife y'all should just be happy he didn't have a gun we could be burying y'all's asses and not arresting him still that's he could come in and say i was cutting the tips off of my

asparagus right and they came in my house and i didn't even realize i still had it in my hand then what then what i'm shit out of luck trimming the burnt ends and there they are there they are i drove all the way out there for nothing now i ain't wasting the county's gas all right now y'all go on your way now i feel like that's what what happened. Nothing can be done? What the fuck is that? Something can be done. At least go talk to the guy. Yeah. Hey, can you do me a favor? Not beat the shit out of your ex-wife or try to stab her relatives, please?

Yeah, at minimum. I mean. Something. Instead, since nothing can be done there, Tony Mann says, okay, I fear for my sister's life. Tell you what, sis, here is uh a 45 caliber pistol for you my god take that home take this hand cannon home with you yeah hey sis i've got a few guns why don't you take the biggest fucker i own take the big one i mean really are you it's a if you miss him he'll be deaf anyway so it don't matter you can you can run out the house while he's screaming for his fucking tinnitus that he's gonna have for the rest of his life so i feel like

yeah maybe that was the key but if you miss you'll still collapse his eardrums yeah you'll still indefin him so it ain't no big thing he'll be indefinited. A.45 inside a fucking trailer would have to blow the fucking doors off that thing. Oh, window. Those plastic tiny windows would pop right out. They wouldn't even break. They'd just go. The plexi slabs. Yeah.

They wouldn't even break. They'd just pop right out of the frames. Or they'd just bow as the concussion goes through them and they'd snap back into place. By the way, when they were running out with the butcher knife all i could think of was i can't remember what episode it was uh it might have been phillips oklahoma honestly i'm not positive but there's an episode where two people got stuck trying to get out a trailer door at the same time that's all i could think of was ant-man and dan-man like that noise that that makes when you almost knock a trailer off its foundation,

off its cinder blocks. Off its cinder blocks as you get stuck going through it. Take it easy with the running. You're going to knock the house off the jack stands. Jesus Christ. Then what? This will be the name of the episode. And then what?

That's going to happen a lot. so vicky's got a 45 so she's this is so she could defend herself i consider her defended it's a lot of self-defense it's a lot of gun there yeah so enter her brother who we mentioned before william wayne thom youngster. Yeah, Wayne, he goes by. He's 15 years old. He's Vicki's half-brother also. He has also suffered, like we said, the wrath of Buck. He has been physically abused by Buck in the past as well. So Buck seems like a real good guy. He's just chasing people with knives, beating the shit out of his wife and her little brother.

It doesn't seem like a real good guy. This is the father. Oh, two young boys. Yeah. He can raise them to have wonderful feelings toward the world. I'm sure they're going to be really well adjusted, I think, and happy and never angry at all. So he hears about this whole thing. Wayne Thompson, his mom, who is also Vicki's mom, she tells him, you know, they tried to go over and get the car, got chased out with a butcher knife, went to the deputy sheriff, the whole deal.

So he hears all this and he's like, Jesus Christ, I don't like this at all. He also saw the loaded gun on the kitchen cabinet in his mother's house as well at the time before it was taken so he uh gathers up a couple of his friends all right gathers up a few of his friends here uh richard neil jones is one of them so dickie jones we're going to call him uh dickie jones and who's 23 years old at the time okay 15 23 let's all hang out uh and another friend of his name bobby glass who is 19 years old at the time 15 19 23 just whoever's around i feel like is hanging out whatever whichever one of you still like the same shit i like yeah drinking i feel like is what that is here just drinking uh so they are and another guy who's not important they're sitting around that night this is the same night of the butcher knife incident

and they're trying to figure out what to do now while doing that there's certain things you want to enhancements you know when planning something or trying to decide a logical course of action you want to be drinking smoking weed and taking a bunch of valium at the same time you need your head clearest you got to throw the clouds yeah yeah you throw everything in there now i feel if you have one of the three you can might be able to focus but only the valium or the weed the alcohol will never allow you to focus it's gonna give you bad ideas the drinking problem but the three of those things together i feel like any ideas that come out of that are going to be really poor right you know

it's like well let's make a pie out of sponges you know it's going to be something like that let's just that's not a good i'm shocked that they had any ideas other than y'all we could take a nap i mean there's that we go down to the mcdonald's i hear that that was just in case we could get mcdonald's and then take a nap and then oh yeah in the mcdonald's parking lot i'm not opposed they just put in a mac dowels maybe we'll go down there i feel like the line will be shorter and i'm down to that golden arc yeah no shit so they were all hanging out and this is uh i'm sorry this is uh like we said glass bobby glass dickie jones tony man yeah dan man's gone now just tony man's left hanging out he's the one with the criminal record they're all sitting around this is when wayne thompson the 15 year

old uh joins the group to hang out uh tony man is 27 by the way so this group is 15 19 23 27 why it's a large age gap in this whole group here it's a fucking age progression thing on the side of a milk carton this is going on certainly doesn't make any goddamn sense so far no so they're all hanging out he he joins them tony man says pull on pull on up a chair little brother so man So Mann, as the, you know, kind of the oldest and the, I guess, the ringleader of the group, they hatch a plan. He says, you know, here's the plan. This is what we're going to do. We're going to run Buck off. All right.

There's a bunch of us here. We can do it. Now, he can't have that butcher knife all the time. They're going to run him off by beating him up. Okay. They're going to beat the shit out of him, throw him in the car, drive him out to a highway in the middle of nowhere. that butcher knife all the time they're gonna run him off by beating him up okay they're gonna beat the shit out of him throw him in the car drive him out to a highway in the middle of nowhere drop him off with instructions never to come back again or you're gonna get more of that

okay they're gonna harry in the henderson go but with an ass kicking before right they're gonna beat him up just throw him in the car yeah this is basically like uh like a 50s vegas guy who's tried to cheat the casino one too many times and they're gonna beat the shit out of him take him to the desert and go if we ever fucking see you in town again we're gonna cut your goddamn head off that's what they did basically we're doing you a favor listen we're doing you a favor you know what i'm saying i could just dig a hole boss said kill you i mean but i said hey you know what i mean we? I could just dig a hole. Boss said kill you. I mean, but I said, hey, you know what I mean? We'll just take a ride.

I think you'll get the picture, you know. So that's the plan, which sounds like a great plan. This will work. They said, well, the sheriff won't do anything to get him out of there. This is the only thing we can do. We're going to treat him like a dog that shits on the carpet too much. Just take him out in the woods, kick him a few times, and tell him to go on his own way. That's not by the way.

Just see, I want to laugh and continue joking, but that's not what we would do with a dog. No. We're talking about what a bad person would do with a dog. That's the point. That's why. You have to clarify. Otherwise, someone's going to go, they should do. If a dog shit in the house, they'd beat it up and dump it off. How many times have you done that, Jimmy?

Jesus, Jimmy. It's too quick to you. How many dogs do you have it up and dump it off? How many times have you done that, Jimmy? Jesus, Jimmy. How many dogs do you have? Poor Vaughn. So, now, Charles Keene, Buck, we should say. Now, Buck has had, you can see this is the thing. You're going, oh, God, yeah, you beat the shit out of Buck and dump him off, obviously, because he beats the shit out of Buck and dump him off, obviously,

because he beats the shit out of Vicky. Totally understandable thought to have. And especially with the butcher knife thing, you go, well, that seems unreasonable to chase someone out with a butcher knife. But this isn't the first incident that Buck has had with members of Vicky's family. About four years earlier, another member of Vicky's family shot buck in an argument with what with a gun what kind of shot him i don't know the caliber of it because no no charl no uh no charges were filed against him because he refused to tell the whole family refused to say anything about it so they ended up the police just dropped the whole thing they all said it was an accident cleaning the gun discharge accident bullshit but we know that it's not the guy shot him on purpose that's a story i wish i was a party too i want to see that's what i'm

saying so he's been shot by a member of her family before so when they come in the house and go we're taking the car he grabs the nearest weapon i feel like at that point yeah which is sort of understandable here um this was because he thought buck was going to kill uh his child that's why apparently buck had physically roughed up someone in the family's child and so this person got a gun and came and shot him not buck's kid not buck's kid someone else's kid i don't know if they were over there playing smacked him around a little bit sometimes you gotta wing a man yeah so that's what i mean this guy came over and uh settled the score for his child and shot him so he survived it old buck he's a tough one obviously and so like i said now he's a little quick on the butcher knife trigger

nowadays is all i'm saying so no charges were filed in that whole incident somehow he's a little quick on the butcher knife trigger nowadays is all I'm saying. So no charges were filed in that whole incident somehow. He's beating people. He's beating children. Someone's shooting him, and the cops don't intervene at this at all. Staggering. They seem to be figuring it out on their own. I mean, there was a beating. The child's name was rectified.

We feel like his reputation was brought back. His honor has been brought back upon his name with the shootings. Vengeance and justice served. Everything's fine. So the next day, or that night, we should say, they go right from drinking and smoking and doing all that shit. They go, well, we're going to do this now, tonight. We're going to go get him. I feel like a 24-hour planning would have been better let's revisit this tomorrow afternoon put together a

good plan do it tomorrow night but you know what sometimes you gotta gotta go with the spur of the moment so they bring in uh bobby glass was there like we said and uh an old richard neil jones old dickie jones yeah so they go over to the trailer with all of them, the whole group. This is Jones, Glass, Wayne Thompson, and Tony Mann. So four strong, they show up at the trailer, which is a lot for one guy. Four people, one of them's 15, but still. So apparently Buck offers, doesn't offer a lot of resistance when they come to get him. They don't come and beat the shit out of him there.

They're going to take him for a ride and then beat the shit out of him. That's the plan. So they he he goes and gets in the car. I don't know if they told him, hey, let's go drinking or what. But two of the people there were chased away. One of the people there was chased away with a butcher knife about 12 hours earlier. So I feel like I don't know if it was hey let's make up sorry about that earlier forgiven we know we surprised you we're sorry we're sorry we got it we'll split a 12er and call it good

we know you're jumpy you know from the shooting and all so anyway they get in uh man tony man drives while bobby glass and wayne thompson sit on both sides of buck in the back so bucks in the middle in the middle seat there and uh and then jones according this is according to thompson the 15 year old wayne thompson jones is passed out in the front seat he's cold, sleeping the whole time while they're driving. Why don't we put that guy in the back in the middle? The sitting arrangement is very precarious.

Well, for them, it's like gangsters taking somebody out. They got him so he can't jump out of the car. So they got him penned in. He should know that. I feel like he does, but I feel like he doesn't take these people seriously. That's the thing. Buck's a big guy.

Buck's big. He's over 200 pounds. He's a big guy. Nobody here is like he could kick the shit out of any of these people individually. That's the thing. He's bigger than all these people, but possibly together if they do a Voltron type situation, they might be able to overtake him, I feel like is what they're thinking. So Jones passed out.

They get to the river. Okay. They drive to the river. Once they get to the river, a man, Tony Mann, tells Keene, they all get out of the car and tells Keene, we're here to beat you up. Yeah. Just very formally announces it. We're here to beat you up. I must proclaim. i must proclaim i must proclaim um so uh at that point he breaks free and runs away from the group when he hears this

so they go chasing him around so now they're chasing him around now there's five grown men running around in the dark through uh on a riverside okay this is what's going on and it gets even fucking sillier than that okay uh they take this they took him to a place near fort street in chickasha where that's where they said that they were going to quote whoop his ass originally chickasha sorry thank you uh glass bobby glass said earlier tony man had given him the pistol and told him because they had the pistol with them the one they gave to vicky the 45 they took it the 45 yeah he yeah glass says that uh tony mann had given it to him with instructions to keep it away from wayne thompson

the 15 year old because he's a real hothead and we don't want him doing something stupid with the gun that was the implication here so um that's how it happened so when the car stopped like we said he runs away they eventually finally catch up to him one of the four i don't know how the fuck they do it um glass bobby glass and wayne thompson eventually try to tackle him and physically overtake him so they're wrestling out in the front yard now this is what's happening so um the uh thompson takes somehow glass has the pistol and somehow thompson ends up with the pistol the 45 okay keen manages to wrestle it away from thompson that's the thing if you're gonna bring a gun you better fucking make sure that someone doesn't take it from you because then you're in deep shit so this guy he took the gun back away from him and a shot is fired so

like while they're wrestling a shot's fired off like in a movie when people are wrestling for a gun right a shot's fired off no one's hit by the shot a wayward shot goes off oh my but it's a.45 in the Oklahoma night. Right. So that rings out. That gun goes deep. Oh. No mountains for it to echo off of. It just goes and goes. It goes and goes and goes, man. It gets cracking.

So one shot, Keen ends up getting a shot off. He was holding the gun, Buck was, when the shot went off. Glass ends up wrestling the gun back away from him somehow i don't know what the fuck they did but he ends up getting it out of keen's hand um so the keen is about 200 pounds and glass is not that big and thompson is about 115 pounds he's a skinny 15 year old so this fight is if it wasn't two on one it wouldn't be a very good fight at all so this two on one i feel like if one gets the legs and one gets the top you can distract the giant i don't know that's kind of the way they're going at it so enter myrtle and possum brown okay enter a man named possum all right so we have a buck and now we're going to let's put a possum into the mix.

All right. This is his real name. No, no, no. It's Myrtle and Malcolm Brown. Malcolm. Everyone calls him possum. Yeah, there's no. And it's really funny to see in court documents of varying because there's like 20 different

sets of court documents for this. In some of the documents, they just call him possum because that's what everyone calls him but in some of the court documents you know someone was like possum that's not proper and they call him opossum which is not what people call him but that's what it is so they call him the proper name a man quote opossum nope his name isn't opossum his name is just possum he got it all wrong yeah so i'd like to know why they call him that does he like dig through the trash or does he just sleep a lot i mean he's kind of a he's got kind of a pointy face i think is all of this i know i have no idea no idea why he likes to eat possum what the fuck do we know he kills possum he wants he

fucked a possum at a party in eighth grade i can see that we don't know that's what i mean people get nicknames in weird ways so i mean one late night possum love story could turn into a lifetime of a man being called possum so myrtle and possum brown here they they live right by the washita river which is where they are um yes the word shit is right in that word w it's wash ita the word shit is in the middle of your river so come on seriously yeah rename that put it make it a d make it washita instead of washita jesus christ they had been on vacation and got home early from vacay they got home from vacation that night and decided to go to bed early because they were tired from traveling. So they went to bed early. Yeah, that happens.

But they're awakened by the sound of a 45 being let off just outside their house. And also their dogs barking at said 45 being let off and five grown men scuffling in a fucking, you know, on a riverbank. So this is crazy. They're awoken by that. Then it's even harder to go back to sleep when a man begins pounding on their door. Oh, my God. Shouting, quote, possum.

Let me in. They're going to kill me. Oh, he knows them. He knows them. They all everyone knows everybody here. That's the thing. Yeah, they know possum. Who the fuck? They're going to go kill this here. That's the thing. Yeah, they know Possum. Who the fuck?

They're going to go kill this guy in Possum's yard? What are they thinking? Like, what the shit is happening? Possum, let me in. They're going to kill me. So the Browns looked outside. They didn't open the door. They're like, who's going to kill who?

What the fuck? They didn't open the door. They looked outside, and they saw what they called three or four men beating another man. They're doing it right there. In front of Possum's door, like on Possum's front steps. He's like, you're stepping on my flowers, Jesus Christ. I just planted those. God damn it, get off the grass.

So I feel bad for Possum more than anybody. This is the worst part so far i mean he poor man's just being drug into this he was asleep you're waking me up yeah but finally we get to see definitely my thing of what if you're looking out the window watching this this guy actually gets to look out the window and watch this shit and he watches them beating another man and they said though it was too dark for them to identify who was who. They just saw four guys scuffling out there. And they said they heard one of the men say very loudly, quote, this is for the way you treated our sister.

So that they heard clearly. And there's a town a bit. So Possum telephones the sheriff's department there's a sheriff here he's like this is possum uh yeah i got a non-possum related issue yeah possum not you over there you know it pal uh he calls him up on the cb so he uh phones the sheriff sheriff breaker breaker share uh but the men left soon after they realized that that possum was in the house apparently they thought possum wasn't home oh that's on vacation james because yeah they yeah so possum wasn't though so they ended up leaving uh by the time the sheriff got there they They're not there anymore. So and they said Possum said

it was too dark to recognize anybody. Doesn't know shit. They left. I don't know. Crazy night. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case,

covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor...

I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.

Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. So what the hell ends up happening is this is the way wayne thompson puts it okay he said quote this is before the scuffle to begin with he says quote i was going to even up the size so i got that 45 and he grabbed it so that was his thing as you know he's bigger than me taller and leaner what the fuck that's how i get bigger that's my working out i grabbed me a 45 and uh he that right there that's my pecs see that it's uh i keep it right in my bicep look in my boot you'll find my abs well this is why when you're 115 pounds and not that strong and maybe don't usually wield a hand

cannon yeah maybe you shouldn't because when the gun went off that's how it was knocked out of his hand the kick of it going off basically he dropped it he couldn't handle the recoil he couldn't handle the recoil so that's what ended up happening and then at that point keen picked it up and then they had oh shit he's got it they had to wrestle it away from him. Glass had said that, I'm sorry, yeah, was it Glass? Yeah, Glass had said that Keene should let the shot off. Thompson says he let it off. Okay.

So I don't know why, but I'll believe the guy who says I fucked up and let it off. It's a more embarrassing story. Yeah, that story sucks. It's probably more true. Yeah. You know, the worse it is for the person telling it makes me believe it more usually i got humility you know how it goes so uh uh apparently in addition to the gun this was all going outside this is the fight they witnessed in addition to the gun once that all

happened they got the gun away from keen they couldn't like physically wrestle him down so glass went and got a big stick and started hitting him with a stick. Wow. So he's running around. They're chasing him. He had a gun. He wrestles it. It goes off.

It falls on the floor. He picks it up. They wrestle it away from him. One guy beats him with a fucking stick and going, this is for beating all my sister. And some people who just woke up from sleep in their eyes came home early and went to bed because they were tired from traveling like what the fuck is happening in my front yard and why is everyone calling me possum this is a crazy night it's a hell of a hit so uh yeah the whole thing's insane so uh they have a stick now eventually keen's leg will end up broken buck's

leg will end up broken thompson thinks that glass had the stick and that but he doesn't think the stick broke his leg he thinks his leg wasn't broken till later and there's plenty of opportunity for that later because this gets real dark real fucking fast this goes from a you know yakety sax benny hill sketch right with a grown man hitting each other with sticks and then he grabs a gun and chases him. And then he takes it and chases him back. Now it goes to they stuff Buck into the trunk of a car. They take him with him?

They eventually knock him unconscious with a stick. That's how they ended up overtaking him. Wow. They overtake him. And that's why they were gone by the time the sheriffs got to Possum's house. Okay. Because they stuffed him in a car when they realized possum was home so possum didn't scare him off as much as possum just changed their plans and made them take him with him made him go somewhere else yeah

because they were going to do they were going to do what they were going to do there but then they decided not to so they loaded him in the trunk of the car and they drive under a bridge near the washita river which is never good when someone when when you if you're in a trunk yeah against your will right and when that trunk pops open you see a bridge you're in deep shit you're you're are in trouble just put it that way nothing good happens under bridges near water nothing never it never happens no you never you never hear about that's that's when i found my jump shot right there and just changed my whole life and decided to dedicate my life to sports i found out about foreign investments and and cds impressive yeah yeah it was it was very good yeah that's when i had my vision for the stock market takeover

so i was gonna just just uh buy everything i can right so they break his leg with a stick or they don't break his leg either way they stuff him into a car drive him under a bridge pull him out of the trunk okay now uh this point bobby glass will say that he tripped and fell and dropped the gun out of his pocket. That's his story. He says at that time, Wayne Thompson picked up the gun and shot Buck with the gun. That's Thompson's story. That's Glass' story. Shot him once with the gun.

He saw Wayne Thompson. He picked it up, shot him, done. Yeah. I tripped and fell and it came out of my pocket all clumsy luck. He picked it up and started bucking shots over at Buck. So that's the story that he's got. Now, Thompson, Wayne Thompson, says that unknown to his older brother, Man, there, Tony Man, Thompson and Glass had put a cement block and a chain in the trunk of the car and got the gun from the kitchen to take with them so that's thompson's story thompson's story is the gun and the cement block and the chain that was all me and bobby the two youngest members of this crew and my older brother didn't

know anything about it that's what he says we we hid it from him on purpose there's some other motherfuckers yeah now glass on the other hand says he ended up with the gun because the older brother man gave it to him to keep away from Wayne. Right. So we have two conflicting stories here, definitely. So Glass also says that he saw at that point Tony Mann and Jones remove knives from their pockets and lean over Buck. Okay, so now they got knives out and they're standing over him. He's been shot once. Bobby Glass said he saw Tony Mann cut Buck with his knife.

He says he saw him stab him and cut him. And Mann and Thompson then attached a chain and a concrete block to Buck's body and dragged him into the river. That's Bobby Glass's story there. Now, Thompson, Wayne Thompson, the 15-year-old, he said that he and Glass intended the whole time to murder Buck and dispose of the body by putting him in the river. That's why they brought a fucking cement block and a chain. You don't do that for no reason um he also said that tony man tried to stop on the highway to let buck out at one point and that he pulled the gun out on tony and told him where to go this is i don't believe this at all the 15 year olds telling his 27 year old brother with a

gun point no you're gonna drive here his brother would have smacked him with the back of his fucking hand said give me that fucking gun before i fucking beat you're going to drive here. His brother would have smacked him with the back of his fucking hand and said, give me that fucking gun before I fucking beat you with it, you asshole. Get over here. What the hell is wrong with you? I'm taking you home. He's going home.

No, I'm dropping him off. We're not stopping at McDonald's like I promised. It's over. He's a teenager. In addition to this, Wayne Thompson here, the 15-year-old, has a little more story of,

seems like just trying to get his older brother out of trouble. Sure. A lot of this seems like just trying to get his older brother out of trouble. Sure. A lot of this seems like later on that Wayne said, look, I'm 15. I'll just say I did all the bad shit. I'll get off on it easier than you would, especially you, Tony, a 27-year-old with a criminal record. Not going to be good. Me, on the other hand, you know, I'm a kid.

What am I going to get, three years in juvie? You know, whatever. Right. record not going to be good me on the other hand you know i'm a kid what am i gonna get three years in juvie and they'll let me you know whatever right i feel like that's a lot of this shit a misinformed misinformed uh idea of the legal system by a 15 year old so uh because wayne claims that he asked his brother tony to help with the murder while this was all going on but that tony refused and he wasn't even around when the murder happened. He was he walked away. He walked down the road because he was so upset with the plan. He was like, I'm not doing this. This is ridiculous.

So, yeah, that's his plan. His brother was so taken aback by it that he walked away. So at this point, this is what Thompson says. Wayne Thompson says that he and Bobby Glass glass drug the unconscious uh unconscious buck out of the trunk down to the river he says that buck then woke up and started beating the shit out of bobby glass so he woke up he's like oh you again that's right i was kicking your ass this is fucking hilarious it's hard to believe any of these stories they all sound bogus they all sound ridiculous right they all sound like at the end

buck should be telling it right you know like these four punks i dumped them all in the river that's what it seems like is going to be the end of it he fired a shot couldn't even hit me and the gun fell out of his hand yeah it's a real real hit squad they put up there don't have teenagers in your hit squad remember that rule crime and sports we've had a rule for five years on that show from an old episode and it's never have a teenager in your hit squad because they're not good at that shit yet and it always is going to be it's going to be a problem so and it is so apparently he started buck started beating the shit out of bobby glass glass was on the ground this is what according to wayne thompson glass was on the ground and then that is when thompson uh shot uh buck he said once glass was on the ground he shot buck and that then after he shot him once then bobby glass grabbed

the gun away from him and shot buck again okay that's the story that wayne gives and then the two of them put the body in the river but they they leave out a lot of it, like the mutilation that occurs. Yeah. Who stabbed how many times? Well, we'll find out here in a minute when we find him. So by Wayne's account of the events, the last time his older brother, Tony Mann, had any contact with Buck was at the house when he was unconscious at Possum's house. He said he walked away at Possum's house, wanted nothing to do with it. And they all kept driving on and left him behind.

So he said that it's very strange because he Buck says other people say that Buck, knowing he was going to be killed, I think Jones says this, Buck said while he was dying, he asked Tony Mann to take care of his children and said that Mann retrieved, got his personal shit from him at the request of Buck, his lighter, his pocket knife, et cetera, and to give to Vicky. Okay. So that was Jones' story. Give Vicky my lighter. So that was Jones' story. Give Vicki my lighter. Give Vicki my Bic. It's got about half fluid full in it. It's not bad. I had it for like four days.

I've been hanging on to it for at least two months. It's a Bad Company logo on it. It's a good one. She's going to want it. Bad Company written in a dream catcher. She's going to want this. So give her that. That's what they're saying here.

So who the hell knows what the real source of events are, but it's kind of important to know it when the legalities creep in here. So, yeah, this is how this works. Now, after this has happened, they kill him and dump him off. Now, after this has happened, they kill him and dump him off. This is when they all they leave. And they say also this is another witness who was there when they all this foursome left the house. One witness there said they said, quote, we're going to kill Charles.

Oh, boy. That's pretty clear. Like, where are you guys going? The store? Now we're going to kill Charles. All right. Now we got all we need from the store. We're going to go take Charles's life.

If you could get a six pack on the way back, that'd be great. I thought you was heading to the store. So just just keep that on your brain. I don't know if you have time. When they got back several hours later, they said that Bobby Glass was wet from the chest down, which is a bad sign. His nose was bleeding and he no longer had the hat that he had been wearing when he left. So he comes in with his hair disheveled, wet from the waist down with a bloody face. James, I got to tell you, there may be a dead man, but it sounds like that guy lost the fight.

That's what I mean. Yeah. Buck lost his life but won the fight somehow. I don't know. Won the battle but lost the war, I guess guess that's the best way to put that so february 18th 1983 so he's just gone for nearly a month wow no one reports him missing no one does anything vicky doesn't even report him missing even though by all accounts when they got home they were like we killed charles for you yeah like they were like yeah but we killed buck for you just got that out of the way don't don't have

to worry about him no more you know this is a good lesson in uh just be nice to your lady because don't beat the shit out of your wife or her family or really anybody yeah hey if even if she has nothing to do with it she ain't saying shit that's what i mean she doesn't say a fucking word no which is so when they found buck they find uh he has been quite uh through the ringer here he's been shot once in the head with said 45 yeah so that's a good shot once in the chest as well. His throat, chest, and abdomen had all been sliced open. No need. So, no need. And he also had stab wounds and multiple bruises and abrasions about his face and head.

And his left leg was broken. And his body was chained to a concrete block and thrown into the river, obviously. So, it's pretty crazy. The autopsy revealed that the gunshot wounds to the head and chest were the cause of death. But, I mean, they did cut his throat afterwards. Did they say how they found him? Was he found first? Yeah, yeah.

No, they found him. He ends up being brought to. The police were brought to him. We'll say that. Nobody found him. A forensic chemist will later say that blood matching Buck's blood type was found in the car used by the men that evening. That's a bad thing. And also a shell casing was found at Possum's house.

They found a 45 shell casing in the front yard. That's that wayward shot. That's the one that missed. The one that missed. More people here. Benny McCarthy, this one guy, he saw Thompson, Glass, and Mann at Dorothy Thompson's house shortly after they came back from the river. Dorothy Thompson is Wayne Thompson's mother. So that's how that works.

is uh is uh wayne thompson's mother so that's how that works he uh mccarthy says that he heard man glass and the mother uh charlzetta garcia oh my god charles charles etta that's the sister so the mother and then the sister charlzetta garcia they were discussing the murder and the need to conceal or dispose of evidence so they went home to have a family powwow about it. Yeah. We killed Charles. Hmm. What are we going to do? I don't know.

And they sat around and so they probably ordered dominoes. Like, what the fuck are you doing? Wow. What? Who brings in their whole family to a murder plot? You go home and tell your mom when you killed somebody? No. What the hell is wrong with you?

If you kill someone, then go home and tell your mom you're not old enough to kill someone put it that way you're just not old enough you shouldn't be doing it yet you need some more experience there this is fucking crazy so they said they needed to return to the river when in the daylight to see if the body sank all the way down or if anything's popping up yeah and also um to get rid of the gun sure down there and toss the gun i don't know why they didn't do that to begin with but i'm stunned this isn't the brightest group here let's just say body weapons yeah body's gone well that's that let's all go home they just all right All right, then. It's gone home.

And then this is all happening on a Sunday morning, by the way. They're discussing how to dispose. Just seems like it's you know what? Let's all have like a cinnamon roll and then we'll talk about it because I don't want to do this. They I don't even like cinnamon rolls, by the way. Anyway, I don't like them. I don't know why. I'm not a big cinnamon guy.

So I don't like it. The rolls. Oh, they're OK. But James is kind of I don't know why. I'm not a big cinnamon guy. So I don't like it. The rolls. They're okay, but James kind of overly. You know me. I like, I like kind of plain dry shit. I like my favorite shit too. I'll eat rice and chicken. No season.

Yeah. Every day. All day. Sweets. Like I like shortbread cookies and shit like that. I like, like kind of not, um, I don't like shit with frosting on it and sprinkles and shit. So I don't know why. Swe on it and sprinkles and shit so i

don't know why sweet overly sweet put everything together i'll eat it like that rocky road ice cream my favorite yeah oh i love rocky road ice cream that's good i'm just i don't want like frosting and like extra shit on it you will i know i've seen your stuff you look like a nine year old girl when you're eating something and see you got rainbows and cotton candy i just like specific ones yeah yeah yeah like a snickers those snickers with the brownies in them james fucking crazy that was a snickers ice jesus ice cream bars oh those are great too those are so good fuck anything ice cream i'm just i'm a fiend for ice cream things i love it so much it's hard not to love that it's so good so uh more witnesses

here uh this god on a sunday morning this is hilarious uh one later that sunday morning bobby glass asked the benny mccarthy guy to go with him and vicky to the river okay so they told vicky about it and brought her down to the scene as well to take a look take a ride with us you can see see if bucks floating or not sweet jesus so this is fucking wild uh there two other people donetta bradford who is uh one of their girlfriends and charlzetta garcia who is uh who is wayne thompson's sister and also Bobby Glass's girlfriend. Yeah. That's how Bobby Glass is in the mix here. That's how he gets chicks. Wow.

They said that they were told that Wayne told them that he shot Charles in the head and cut his throat. That's what Wayne said. So Charlotte Mann, who was Tony Mann's ex-wife, heard... Oh, who the fuck, by the the way talks of murder in front of their ex-wife that's not the person to do this with jesus christ my ex-wife that i had unpaid parking tickets i wouldn't say shit about who would around that woman insane jesus christ so uh they So they they heard she heard Tony tell her his mother that Buck Keane was dead. They killed him and that Vicky and Buck's ex-wife, who who is Buck's ex-wife. I'm sorry. And also his sister didn't have to worry about him anymore.

So Vicky ain't got to worry worry about him anymore nobody does because we killed him yeah that's he tells his ex-wife he tells his mother this in front of his ex-wife crazy shit so uh the oklahoma state bureau of investigation i think it is analyzed the stain on possum's front porch carpet and discovered it was caused by uh uh buck's blood. Okay. So they found that. They found the expended.45 caliber Winchester Western cartridge in Possum's front yard. And so they're kind of putting that all together. Also, in Possum's dog pen, fabric was found that had the same type and design as the hat that was missing from the one murderer there. I believe Bobby Glass had a hat. Apparently, it got thrown into the dog pen and the dog or it got it up or it got in the yard and then the dogs

grabbed it brought it in the pen with them and shoot it up so half chewed up evidence but still so the police arrest william wayne thompson tony man bobby glass and dickie jones arrest them all okay this is when shit gets really kind of off the rails here. Okay. Now, rather than try them together, they try them all separately, which makes for basically a separate little circus in each one where there's different facts and then different people saying different shit. And it's up to the judge to let in whatever version of events they feel like they want to let in. Holy shit. It really turns out for bad results here so richard neil jones dickie jones his trial his whole story is i was passed out through most of this i don't even

know we went to apparently we went to get him i was sleeping the whole time in the front seat i remember something happened and barely but i don't know what the fuck happened i was passed out i'm taking mr brown's nickname because i am now the sleepiest man in town i am so sleepy i am i am yeah i'm not even possum that's not even possum possum's the other guy when you're pretending so i know that's fucking great i'm playing possum's like hey i play possum so hard i really fall asleep maybe that's what it is maybe he's just a real liar he's a bullshit artist he's a sandbagger possum that's all it is he's just a liar he doesn't he never tells anybody the truth so we

call him possum i feel like possums are the most dishonest of the animal kingdom. I don't know why. I hope that's the reason. That would be amazing. That would be unbelievable if that was the goddamn reason why. The best reason to be called a possum. The only reason. That's the one.

So, that's his deal. Yeah. Now, Wayne Thompson says that Dickie Jones, he testifies that Dickie Jones had been drinking heavily on the night of the killing. He backs that up both at Tony's house and then later on at the Stork Club. Oh, the Stork Club. Some highfalutin shit there. The Hillbilly Gemini Lounge. Pretty much what it what it is yeah that's a little social club yeah they chop up bodies in the basement head on over so the stork club classy so uh that's what they that's thompson's story is he was shit faced the whole

time so the prosecutor now says this the prosecutor says uh quote, this is while he's talking to jurors that are prospective jurors. Quote, you've heard of Vicky Keene, but Charles Keene is the man that was murdered. So the rights of the defendant are important to each citizen in our country like they are to Mr. Jones. This is at Dickie

Jones's trial. But do you believe that the rights of a victim has that they have rights to, which I don't even know what the fuck that means. So the defense objected as far as objection, your honor, nonsense. I don't know what. Objection, your honor, doesn't make any goddamn sense whatsoever. He just said no idea what he's talking about. Objection overruled and he continued. So in this case you know it's important that the rights of mr jones be protected but i'm asking that you think each

time you hear each time you hear the and think about the rights of mr jones you'll also think about the rights of buck keen the man who's been murdered so he's just trying to do that thing like you know he's got rights too so the prosecutor also inquired another prospective juror in the following manner. Do you believe those laws are intended for for the to protect the rights of the victim as well as they're intended to protect the rights of Mr. Jones? And the juror said yes. And he said, but it's a two sided coin, is it not? And the juror said yes. So apparently this was a big deal later on, as we'll get into here.

Now, Thompson here during this trial, he admitted his own participation in the killing. He also testifies that Dickie Jones was passed out in the car and he didn't do anything. So according to him, Jones had no idea that Keene was going to be killed. Didn't do anything. So according to him, Jones had no idea that Keene was going to be killed. He was too drunk to know. And then a witness also from the Stork Club testified that Jones had passed out at the club and had to be carried out to his car. This is just some other guy that was at the club. That doesn't have anything to do with them.

Also, four guys go to a murder a guy and they bring a fall down, passing out, shit face, drunk man with them. Why wouldn't you just leave him? We're going to drop off him first. He's not really useful in this whole scenario. Why is Paul that, man? Is it just a body to take up that extra seat to keep him in the back in the middle? Maybe that's it. Is that what it is?

I'm laughing. We need another body. Anybody want to go with us? Grab the fucking fast down. Like he couldn't just climb over him. Open the door, slide his half-corpse ass out, and then climb out right after him. How hard is that? All you have is a 115-pound teenager trying to hold you back.

You could do that. Terrible planning. I think that's what it was it was though i think it's just another body well no he was in the front seat right that's my point he's in the front seat so that buck can't get up there either that or also you know maybe it's just like carpool lane type of thing just so it looks normal i don't want no one thinks i'm a goddamn taxi driver right put someone in the front i don't want this to catch any eyes three people in the back seat one guy driving that's weird that's weird and pull them over and check that out so um yeah so that's they're all testifying that uh that uh he was all passed out jones and everything like that um. But also an inmate testifies, an inmate from the county jail testifies that Glass told him, this inmate, that Dickie Jones had nothing to do with the killing, but that Glass would

see that everybody got the death penalty. He told this inmate, well, I'll see that everybody's going down for this. We're all getting the death penalty. That's what he said. I don't know why he would want him and all of his friends to get the death penalty but he really wants it bad here he's got a real death wish so here are some statements that are uh some will some of them will be called hearsay some of them not but here's some shit that came out of the trial testimony from dorothy thompson that wayne thompson told her that they had, quote, taken care of some business and that Vicky Keene didn't have to bother with Charles no more.

Quote, unquote. Dorothy also testified as to what Bobby Glass told her about chasing Buck Keene down and the fight at Possum Brown's house. Told him the whole deal blow by blow and also charles getting the gun and trying to shoot them uh also charlotte man who is one of the sisters or that's the ex-wife of tony man i'm sorry this is confusing she told about the conversation she heard between the mother and wayne about how the the whole killing went down she also related her conversation with tony man where tony told her that buck was really dead and that Wayne had killed him. That's what she had said. And also she testifies that Tony said that Charles was shot, cut up and dumped in the river with blocks on his feet and that both Wayne and Bobby Glass shot him.

So there's that. shot him. So there's that. Benny McCarthy, he told about the conversation he had with Tony Mann and Bobby Glass, where Tony and Bobby said they had to go out and check on the body and get rid of the gun. He related the conversation with Bobby Glass in which Bobby said that he shot Keene, Thompson cut

him up, and that Tony Mann and Glass had beaten Keene. Glass also told him that Jones and Mann dragged the body to the river. So Glass is telling everybody that Jones was involved, but everybody else is saying Jones was passed out the whole time. Yeah. Except for Glass. Glass keeps saying he was there. Yeah. So Glass wants everybody to fry for this shit. That's what the guy from the county jail said, which I mean,

who the hell knows? We've had a lot of those not be that reliable before. Excellent point. Benny McCarthy also testified that Tony Mann told him that the gun they were trying to sell, the hell knows we've had we've had a lot of those not be that reliable before so uh benny yeah benny mccarthy also testified that tony man told him that the gun they were trying to sell was the one that they shot him with so at one point he was trying to sell it then they decided no we should dump it in the river you know since we killed a guy with it and all right because it's got a body count and all you know yeah they're gonna trace that back uh testimony also by vicky the wife that tony man told her that charles was dead and that she didn't have to worry anymore uh he also

told her that keen's last words were to take care of his children vicky also testifies that tony and bobby uh went back to the river to check on the body and to quote put the gate back up it's probably one of those gates that they have at the you know so that works so anyway they find uh they find him guilty this is uh jones they find him guilty here dickie jones of murder in the first degree and uh sentencing comes around and the death penalty is on the table for all four of these guys oh my god including the 15 year old. Really? They're going to push that.

And he's testifying against everybody and and himself, mostly mostly just incriminating himself. And they're still pushing for the death penalty. So here, though, with him, this is the guy that most everyone said was passed out. Only Dickie Glass puts him in. They say you, sir sir may fuck off death penalty for jones oh my god yeah only one witness and that witness's testimony is also clouded by someone saying that he said he was going to try to get everyone the death penalty so let that be a lesson to you never get too drunk in public that you need a ride home never never pass out in a bar drunk bad things are gonna

happen so now i understand people that like johnny damon getting arrested for drunk driving now i get it he just didn't want to get arrested and thrown into some murder plot that or or beaten and stuffed in with trunk and tied to a cement block and dumped in a river either one these things can happen stay in your own car everybody jesus christ sleep it off in the back seat if you have to i don't know i don't know if that's legal or what but check your own state check your own local municipality for that i don't know at home there you go so bobby glass's trial uh comes up and it's you know he had now already admitted to his part in the murder wayne thom trial comes up and it's you know, he had now already admitted to his part in the murder. Wayne Thompson comes up and says his part, too.

So basically, the general story is Wayne and Bobby were the main killers here. And even Wayne and Bobby were the two people who shot him. So Bobby Glass is found guilty as well. And they go to sentencing for him he tries to get a little leniency because he testified against uh jones that's how he's trying to get off but they say you sir may fuck off death penalty for you too oh god it's not looking good so bobby gets the death penalty too now this is this is this happens in late 1983 he gets the death penalty, too. Now, this happens in late 1983. He gets the death penalty.

He's immediately put on death row. That's what they do. And now they set the execution date for like two months from the trial, from the sentencing. And then you go from the appeals process. It's such a fucking waste of everybody's time and money to say, well, we'll set the date for then, even though we know that's not when it's going to fucking happen. To say, well, we'll set the date for then, even though we know that's not when it's going to fucking happen. But we'll go through all the expense of doing all this shit and everybody file papers and then we all have to put the. It's the stupidest thing ever.

It's so dumb the way they do that. So they do that. They put him on death row in February of 1984. He's been on death row for like a month now. Bobby Glass. on death row for like a month now bobby glass um uh the the inmates on death row are being taken outside from their cells for exercise okay this was on a sunday they don't know what happened but there's a fight apparently between two of the inmates and they say they don't know if the these people if they attacked each other or one person was the aggressor. They can't tell.

They said, this is the prison warden, quote, we're not certain at this point what happened. The other inmates aren't saying much as inmates are. They're not that voluble when it comes to this is what happened during the stabbing usually. So what ends up happening is Bobby Glass, who's 19 at the time, is stabbed to death in a death row in a death row shanking how many people have been killed on death row that's you're supposed to be it's supposed to be like the most secure right place there is besides the hole i mean but it's death row you're not around fucking anybody you know who are you are around other death row

inmates yeah other people other murderers do some murdering some of whom are might be pissed at you right by the way as we'll get into here uh he was stabbed in the chest multiple times and killed um oh chest arms and throat i'm sorry oh so it's a prison shank. They just shank. Just wild stabbing. Yeah. Wild stabbing. Yeah. The person who did the stabbing, Richard Jones, Dickie Jones stabbed him to death. Dickie got him. Dickie got him. Oh, yeah.

Dickie earns death row now. So Dickie, if he was sleeping through the first one, he wasn't sleeping through this one. He was also, you know, had a couple of minor wounds as well, but he's fine. They had been on death row for less than five weeks together. Holy shit. Why would you, as a warden, how could you say, yeah, yeah, those two guys, put them together? No shit. Oh, I'm sorry.

Glass had been there for five weeks. The other one who did the stabbing, Dickie Jones, had just gotten there a week and a half earlier. Oh, wow. That's fast acquisition of a shank. That's what I mean. You just got there, and you were already putting it together. You got there. You're like, all right, first thing is stab and kill that motherfucker. First thing's first.

Fuck my bedroll. Where's a knife? Yeah. Then we'll figure out how to get crossword puzzles after that okay then sudoku all right excellent so jones doesn't deny that he stabbed glass at all he goes i fucking stabbed the shit out of him he says it was self-defense though he came at me i stabbed the shit out of him he says it was self-defense though he came at me i stabbed the shit out of him that's how it worked i got the weapon away from him and stabbed him and no charges are filed against jones none they can't get any witnesses to say anything so all they have is his word of going he's a murderer he came at me with a goddamn knife i got it away from him shanked him up good i'm barely lucky i got away with my life self-defense he's in here for murder guess what i'm in here for same thing i can do it too how wild is that shit man so

william thompson here uh wayne wayne thompson they want to try him as an adult even though he was 15 years old they want to try him as an adult. Now, under Oklahoma law, childhood murderers can be tried and punished as long as this is the standard, okay? You would think it would be like an age minimum. Pretty much. This is it. Quote, that they knew what they were doing. Wow.

That's all. That's the law. That they knew what they were doing. That's so, basically, a four-year-old. You remember when you had kids that were four? Yeah. They did shit bad that they knew exactly what they were doing that's so basically a four-year-old you've you remember when you had kids that were four yeah they did shit bad that they knew exactly what they were doing of course so if something they did illegal they should be put in adult prison now not child adult prison he knew what he was doing jimmy yeah he knew it it was obvious and tried as an adult up for death

row yeah it's not even that they knew what they were doing and can comprehend the consequences of such. That would be a different standard. This is just knew what they were doing. Unbelievable. Knew what they were doing was wrong. That's all you need to know, which is pretty wild. Now, Thompson, who is 15, they're going to put his also criminal record into this at 15. He's already got a record.

There's also a criminal record into this. At 15, he's already got a record. He was arrested four times for assault and battery in his young life and once for attempted burglary as well. You know, it's not great. So he's had a little bit of a record. Juvenile justice system said it's hard to say juvenile justice system said that the counseling and discipline for these arrests did not work or improve his behavior. Nothing worked on him. So this is how they're trying to decide whether he should be tried as an adult or not. The trial court now decides that Thompson knew the severity of the crimes he repeatedly committed and showed little to no improvement in the juvenile justice system.

the crimes he repeatedly committed and showed little to no improvement in the juvenile justice system. So the court believed that there would be no improvement in Thompson's behavior by crime, even with tough discipline. Therefore, he will be tried as an adult. Holy shit. He wasn't mature enough to take the discipline well. Therefore, he's an adult. That's literally what they said said which is kind of staggering so uh the evidence at the trial shows that he personally kicked buck in the head shot him in the head slit his throat and helped drag his body uh weighted down with concrete and chains that he

decided to bring to the river doesn't look good uh one question that was improper apparently they uh he asked the prosecutor asked a defense witness whether he was related to a man named Cecil Leroy Cloud. When the guy said that Mr. Cloud was his father's stepbrother, the prosecutor said, that's the same Cecil Leroy Cloud that we sent to the pen for shooting with intent to kill, correct? What's that got anything to do with this? That's what they said. It had nothing to do with shit. Who cares? So, yeah, but it was a stupid thing.

There was an objection. They said it was a cheap shot, blah, blah, blah, and they said, no, it's fine. It goes. Also, there's objections to just his age. They said the prosecutor consistently seeks to characterize him as being emotionally older than his chronological age that's what the defense says he says that the defense says they

stressed uh the defense counsel keeps stressing his age as a mitigating factor arguing that he shouldn't be given the death penalty because he was you know he's young enough to change and improve himself 15 is really young. It is. Can you even remember your 15 year old brain? I can remember the converse war to school. And that's all I remember. That's what I mean. Imagine if you were sitting in prison right now for something that you don't even remember why you did it or how you because you were 15.

Right. That's so young. It's like, I don't know. Jesus Christ. i don't know what the hell i was after there like it's is it 15 is young even if you do something really really really fucking horrific it's there's very few 15 year olds that are like worth a fuck at anything right yeah would you hire the 15 year olds you may be hired to like cut your grass or something, but you wouldn't give them any other more complicated job because they're 15. Right. So murder was 15 is so young.

You're not even legally allowed to employ them to do anything. That's what I mean. It's even like I don't even want this person here. You know what I mean? But they legally were allowed to hire him. At that age, you're allowed to make no decisions for yourself. Like, so on purpose, because you're not, you know, your brain isn't developed enough to do that. That's the whole point.

Right. The defense counsel also stressed that he called him, quote, a normal little boy, just like other little boys, which sounds creepy. Little boys, the key words there. Sounds like he wants to touch his butthole at that point, though, when he calls him that. Hot little boy like all the other hot little boys. You know, he's just sexy. He's just, you know what I mean? Just like something about it. You know what I'm talking about, right?

Right? Oh, shit. Jesus Christ. So they find him guilty because he comes out and says how guilty as he said he did everything. He's covering for his brother. He's covering for everybody. So what they do is for sentencing, they bring in a Dr. Helen Klein, who's a cynical clinical psychologist and probably a cynical psychologist as well for being what she does, and director of the psychology department at Central State Hospital.

She would testify that at the sentencing stage of the trial, her testimony is used solely to prove the existence of a probability that Thompson would commit criminal acts of violence that would constitute a continuing threat to society if let out. So she's going to predict the future. Her job is not a psychologist. It's a fucking psychic. What are we doing here? Exactly.

Her job is to sit in front of a crystal ball and say the outcome of a 15-year-old kid, which is insane. It's insane because, like I said, I know people, myself personally and a shitload of others, that where they were at 15 is just a vast difference from where they are today. Totally. Yeah. Because when you're 15, a lot of your shit is reactionary to your circumstances that you don't control because you're 15. Right. You know, you don't control your home life when you're 15. You can't get a job and get your own fucking place and you don't have control of that. Given opportunities, my decisions will change.

Therefore, I will be a better person probably. Exactly. You're a 15 year old. A 15 year old's like a like a dog. Yeah. Like the dog is a reflection of the environment. You know what I'm saying? And that's how it works.

So it's also a 15 year old will do things to piss off authority because of the environment. They will go against a happy living arrangement just to have some fucking difference. Because I don't want perfect shit all the goddamn time. Let's have some strife around here. Mom, you're a cunt. Yes. See, there you go. Now I feel better about myself.

Fuck. So put on Bad Company, God damn it. I'm just angry. I'm going to go in my room and play an album. So they say during the court hearing here, the victim herein was abducted from his home, severely beaten by four men, shot twice and had his leg broken, throat and chest slashed with a knife. When he attempted to escape and had a chance to call out for help,

he was thrown into the trunk of a car. These facts amply support the conclusion that the murder was heinous, atrocious and or cruel. You, sir, may fuck off. Death penalty for the 15-year-old. Wow. The leap from all of those things that are so heinous and cruel a tiny 15 year old did all of that to a man way bigger than him so they're like so kill a 15 year old what i mean we're killing a man that took a nap let's kill everybody fuck it what happened was atrocious, so kill a child. That's the thing to make up

for. We'll fix this. We'll fix this. You want to talk justice? I'll show you justice, goddammit. Let's kill a sophomore. What do you say? Well, good news. Good news, bad news. Good news is you don't have math third period anymore, so that's great.

That's terrific. Bad news is we don't have math third period anymore. So that's great. That's terrific. Bad news is we just went back in time and we are going to sacrifice you to Zeus. No shit. At what point in time did we kill 15 year olds? I don't think that. I mean, the only time it was done was virgin 15 year olds because we wanted rain. You know what I mean? No shit.

Like when we did the old west murders on the patreon episode there was a couple that were like you know a 15 or 14 year old did some shit and they were like he's a kid we gave him back to his parents that was the end of the story like you know oh well sheriff he was an adult we sent him on his way that's all gave him a good paddling so come back to the sheriff's house and sweep his porch next week, though. I'll tell you that much. He's going to do it. A written apology. Written.

Good penmanship, too. I don't want no bullshit out of you. Shot in the constable's shoes. Oh, boy. So the Tony Mann trial is last here. And apparently the big deal here is the admission of a color videotape recording. They basically recorded Buck's body being recovered from the river on videotape. And as you can imagine, a brutally shot and stabbed, cut up body that's been submerged in a slimy river for a month.

And chained to an anchor or chained to a concrete. Yeah. Looks terrible coming out of the water. There's algae on it and shit like that. It's bad stuff. So there was an objection made at trial that this was more prejudicial than probative. Also, there's the introduction of a bunch of color photographs, and the color photographs are introduced in all the cases, basically. And they're autopsy photographs.

They're graphic. They're a crime scene. They're graphic. Yeah, well, I mean, you could kill someone less graphically if you don't want that shown at your trial. You know, autopsy photographs or a crime scene. They're graphic. They're not easy to look at. Yeah. Well, I mean, you could kill someone less graphically if you don't want that shown at your trial. Probably. You know?

Yeah. Do something that doesn't look as bad. Right. Also, a wound. Make it so they're smiling in those pictures. Yeah, but a wound looks worse in three days. You know what I mean? Yeah. Exactly.

Especially if the person dies, because then they decay and that wound opens much bigger. Much bigger. Yeah. Especially in the water when it blows up. Right. It's going to blow up around it and stretch it. The pictures show the mud, blood, and slime from the river, the slit in the victim's throat, and the entry wounds of the bullets in the chest and head. However, they said that it was not anything. I don't know how you could consider.

I'm sorry. Pictures are pictures. That's it unless they unless the the pictures are staged in a way to make it worse right you know what i'm saying like a guy putting his foot in the chest wound to show you how big it is or something that would be egregious probably but outside of that you know um so uh also the prosecutor describes man as a quote corpse robber jesus christ what does that mean which a reference to uh tony's removal of the knife and lighter uh to give to vicky oh got it so the defense called it

or i'm sorry the judge called it a quote poor although accurate choice of words at the time yeah during the objection they said well it's a poor although accurate robin shit but i mean you know it sounds bad sounds worse than it is yeah um so also the uh uh they they objected to the failure of the court to instruct the jury on first degree manslaughter and second degree murder as well as first degree murder the contention is based on the claim that there was substantial evidence that uh that uh he was incapable of forming a specific intent to meet the murder criteria because he was drunk. They were saying because he had been drinking all night to now. Wayne Thompson's testimony is the only evidence offered to prove that this guy was drunk that night and he didn't estimate the volume of anything.

He just said that he thought he was drunk. That's all he said. So that's what he's trying to get off on the evidence shows that man drove the car that evening around chico shea and to uh to and from everywhere a distance of 12 miles and to two different locations on the washita river without any difficulty so how drunk could you be is if after you were drinking all that booze, you were driving around for an hour? Fine. And then you went to kill someone and now you don't know what the fuck you're doing?

Like, you know, according to Wayne, man said to him in glass, quote, you all know it's murder. So they were saying that he he obviously knew he was murdering someone. So they were saying taking his testimony is accurate. Man couldn't have been too drunk to know it was taking place. Now, another leg of man's defense, and this is a weird one, is that his sister Vicky should also be charged. What about Vicky? He wants her. She gets away. Scott free Vicky.

What the fuck is that about? Yeah. He says that the court erred in not treating Vicky as an accomplice for procedural purposes vicky was the former wife of the victim and the and you know this guy and the uh the accused sister the evidence shows that that she that the probe that the beating of her is what caused the whole thing i don't know why that would make her an accomplice jesus christ but there's no evidence to establish her as an accomplice other than she knew that he was killed and didn't say and tell anybody about it so after the fact i could see her as like a you

know after the fact co-conspirator they do that all the fucking time that's but they don't do it with her maybe because she's got two little kids and got beat on for years so they were like meh you know yeah well let's not so um you'm a view, Oklahoma. Yeah. Right. Also, he man also claims a evidentiary harpoon is what he calls it. What the legal term is. What does that mean? OK. He claims he was the victim of an evidentiary harpoon and that the court overruled his objection to the offending testimony. overruled his objection to the offending testimony.

The witness was one of the police officers who transported he transported man from Ufala where he was arrested back to Chickasha. Man asked if they had made an arrest in a different case that has nothing to do with this. Completely, completely different case. And man commented that, quote, pretty bad them cutting her up like that. So he was talking about some girl who got killed somewhere else. And he was asking about that. Hey, did you guys ever catch the guy who did that?

So the deputy replied, quote, you don't have much room to talk. Like he was saying, your guy is pretty fucked up, too. Mann said, quote, I know, but it wasn't supposed to happen that way. And the prosecutor offered this as an admission of guilt by man but he was uh not like under any kind of you know we didn't read him his rights or anything like that he was just sitting in the back of the police car so uh they claim that the jury thought that he was involved in another crime or in a similar crime and that he was admitting he was guilty to that based on the testimony he said it confused the jurors that they thought that he killed some girl somewhere also, basically.

So he calls that an evidentiary harpoon. And the court says, no, you're good. Now, the sentencing here, there's a closing argument in the sentencing. And the court, this is what the court will say later the prosecutors came very close to causing an abortion of an otherwise fair trial with their insistence in ignoring the standards for what is proper closing argument what is with the the verbiage nasty yeah pronounce it motherfuckers that's what we're talking about he says that i believe the actions and comments of prosecutors larry barric and Tony Burns during second stage closing arguments did not merely come close, but did deprive Tony Mann of a fair trial during the second stage.

Prosecutor dry fired the murder weapon and commented, quote, That's the last sound Charles Keene hears. He says that the comment was clearly improper, unprofessional, designed solely for its unfair prejudicial impact on the jury and cannot be tolerated. Wow. This is what the appeals court will later say. Prosecutor Burns requested sympathy for the victim on several occasions, made comments relating to societal alarm, saying, like, you know, if you let this guy go society's falling apart and stated that uh tony had fabricated a defense through his little brother so but that i think is might be true maybe seems like wayne has taken the brunt of this you know what i mean because he thought he would get off like we were saying here uh the facts of the case demonstrate that keen was

undoubtedly subjected to extreme physical abuse resulting in a great deal of pain and fright for an extended period of time before the fatal wounds were inflicted, including being locked in a trunk car and being beaten. There was testimony that Keene knew when he was at Brown's house that he would be killed because he said, they're trying to kill me. This was illustrated by his plea for help from the browns as well as his deathbed request to take care of his boys and raise them right because that's what he said basically like the beginning of deadwood when bullock is hanging that guy and he tells him to he tells us to tell his sister to raise his boys right it's the same exact thing apparently in oklahoma when you're murdered you have to say raise them right so it has to be your last words. So through all of this, they decide you, sir, may fuck off. Death penalty for you, too.

Oh, my God. Everybody, four for four. Four of a kind. Four for four. Four aces here, everybody. So the death for man originally set for June 1984, like three months after after the fucking the verdict here. So it's originally delayed. There's a stay granted to do an appeal and all of that.

So Thompson, Wayne Thompson, being 15, his appeal goes all the way to the Supreme Court, like the United States Supreme Court. It's a major landmark decision, his case, actually. It's a big deal. It has its own Wikipedia page, just the decision itself. So, yeah, nothing about the case, but just the decision. So they said that he was 15, and they decided that it would constitute cruel and or unusual punishment under the eighth and 14th amendments of the United States Constitution and under Article two to

Section nine of the Oklahoma Constitution as well. Fucked it up on both sides. The current statute is this court unanimously rejecting the arguments found the that imposition of the death penalty on a minor certified to stand trial as an adult constitutes neither cruel or unusual punishment. That's the statute in Oklahoma. So the shrink here, we have some psychological thing here. He says that Thompson says that the Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights were violated because he was not warned of his right to remain silent

during those two interviews with the psychiatrist that said he was fine to die. Oh. Basically, he says that anything could be said could be used against him. The original record was silent in it, and then he filed for an affidavit on the whole thing, and it stated that he was not so warned. So there's a problem there the supreme court has also held that a criminal defendant who neither initiates a psychiatric evaluation nor attempts to introduce any psychiatric evidence may be compelled to respond to a psychiatrist

if his statements can be used against him in a sentencing hearing so you don't have to unless it's you requested it basically so they said that when the defendant is faced while in custody with court ordered psychiatric inquiry, the state may use his statements at the penalty phase only if the defendant is apprised of his rights and knowingly decided to waive them. So at that point, they're an agent of the state. It's the same thing as if a defect detective or the prosecutor came in and talked to you. You can't just use they can't just use that person as a you know as a trojan horse to get your information that's not okay especially under the guise of a doctor right which makes it fucking worse so unless they know what predicting your behavior for the future yeah that's wild way in the future way not even like he could do 20 years and then maybe we could

rehabilitate him not even that just i feel like in years, he'll still be an asshole. Like, wow, really? Okay. So the court in a one justice did not participate in a five to three ruling. Yeah. The court rules in favor of Wayne Thompson, holding that his execution would violate the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution as applied to the states through the 14th Amendment. The opinion by Justice Stevens, he said, that he noted the, quote, evolving standards of decency that marked the progress of a maturing society.

He was the he gave the I'll give you the his his statement. I'll give you Scalia's statement the opposite. Yeah, I want to know why we can't kill children. I want to know the three dickheads that were okay with murdering a 15-year-old. Scalia. You know who they are. Do I? You could just look and you'll know off the top of your head who they are.

Scalia, Thomas, and who? Well, Thomas wasn't in yet. This was in the 80s. Yeah. This is in the 80s. So I'll get to it, though. So, yeah, let's see here. William Wayne Thompson here.

He says that he slept a little more soundly knowing that he wasn't going to be executed after this. He said that, you know, quote, I'm glad it's over during an interview. Well, no shit. He said that he was worried about never seeing the outside of prison walls again. Now they say, because he's going to be resentenced with a good behavior and a decent sentence and a timely parole, he might be out in 10 years, depending on what he gets sentenced to. Really? You never know. So then he would be like 30.

So the high courts ordered the state to resentence him, and they expect the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals to commute the death sentence to life imprisonment. In Oklahoma, a life sentence equals 45 years in prison. He's already served five, and then you figure with time served, that's probably more realistic. They said, what are you going to do if you do get out? And he said, quote, I'd like to get my GED ged which is general equivalent equivalency it's a high school diploma if you don't graduate high school if you're not from the u.s um then get into welding auto mechanics or auto body repair okay he's got achievable goals that's good you could go to a

school and you can get a certificate for that and you can do it his plans though are to definitely leave oklahoma if he if he gets parole oh dear jesus he said quote i'll go out to california where two sisters and a brother are living perfect perfect not san diego or la this boy's moving to bakersfield yeah yeah so they talk about moving him off death row they said that depending on his behavior will ease him into the general population soon basically we'll get him off death row in a minute here. He offered this is Thompson. Wayne Thompson offered some words of advice for youngsters contemplating committing crimes in the newspaper. be sentenced to die, but they will be put in prison if they commit a crime. I know it's like beating my head against the wall by saying this, but they should keep that very, very much in mind.

Kids that they can go to prison. So the ruling here expands on another ruling. They said that they would hear more arguments now on this to kind of try to get a standard of how young you can execute people, basically. What constitutes cruel and unusual punishment and all that sort of thing, which is fucking wild. The Oklahoma assistant attorney general said, we anticipated they would do this. It just happened to be a case out of Oklahoma that made them do that. And they said the judge certified him to stand as an adult. We feel like the decisions of the jury should be upheld.

That's obviously his opinion. Now, Justice John Paul Stevens writes the majority opinion, quote, We are not persuaded that the imposition of the death penalty for offenses committed by persons under 16 years of age has made or can be expected to make any measurable contribution to the goal that capital punishment is intended to achieve. So we're just kicking our own asses by killing kids, basically. Now, Scalia has another opinion. He says, William Wayne Thompson is not a juvenile caught up in a legislative scheme that unthinkingly lumped him together with adults for purposes of determining that death was an appropriate penalty for him and for his crime. There is no rational basis for discerning in a societal judgment that no one so much as a day under 16 can ever be mature and morally responsible enough to deserve that penalty. Really?

Yes. If everybody was a robot, great. Yes. If everybody was a robot, great. But the fact that you end up with 15-year-olds that aren't fucking tried the right way and aren't mature enough. Yes. If you could put everybody under a machine and go, actually, his real age, his brain age is 22.6. So he knew what he was doing.

But this guy, that would be a different story. But this is opening it up to way too much interpretation and people are stupid. So you can't do that. I'm glad that dinosaur is dead. Yeah, that's I mean, we hate to say we're glad people are dead, but he was a nasty, mean motherfucker. A fucking angry old man. He was very, very angry and hated everybody. Yeah, I agree with that. So and that's not political.

That's just the guy was a dick. So objectively true. Yeah. So Tony Mann appeals. buddy yeah i agree with that so and that's not political that's just the guy was a dick so uh yeah so tony man appeals he appeals on that benny mccarthy testimony all this overhearing shit all over the house as hearsay testimony basically his thing uh they affirm the judgment against him against tony man but there is dissent they said unfortunately the appellant's right to a fair trial was the victim of an overzealous prosecutor. The record is replete with error committed both during the stages of the trial when it's considered in a cumulative fashion necessitates that the conviction be reversed and remanded for a new trial. But it's not. So there's that. Richard Neal Jones, Dickie Jones appeals. Remember, he's got two bodies on him now well a nap in a body of nap in a body

or he was participating in it like other people said and tony jones or i'm sorry wayne thompson was the only one who said he was passed out the whole time but he took it off of everybody except for bobby glass so we don't know that he says that uh um that the trial court erred in permitting the admission of hearsay statements basically the same thing the last guy appealed on and here they said that the statements were not properly admissible in his appeal same exact statements from the same exact people mind you are not admissible here but were admissible against man so it's fucking interesting here they said that the statement is not hearsay if the statement is offered against a party and is a statement by a co-conspirator of a party during the course

and in the furtherance of a conspiracy they said it's essential foundational requirement that the statement be made during the course of a conspiracy they said this wasn't he just overheard it later on he said in the context of a murder case accomplished by two or more co-defendants this court held that the statements relating to the conversation between the two alleged conspirators days after the murder were not admissible because that wasn't during the course of the thing. So that guy hearing it was, you know, it's out. So also he appeals on the account of the overly he says overly graphic pictures as well. They said that that was a big deal the two coat photographs are the same ones the other guy does objects about their ones covered when where uh the body's

covered in algae and slime a factor which quote led to its gruesomeness and lessened its probative values as the algae partially covered the wounds do do we need the United States Motion Picture Association to rate the pictures before we put them in? We kind of do. We got to keep it at PG-13 at best. We got to go PG-13. Yeah. And the other one was the ones with algae on it, they covered the wounds. So they just showed them because they looked extra bad. It doesn't even show the wounds. So finally, they also allege prosecutorial misconduct. And the court says, we agree with the appellant's assertion that the prosecutorial conduct in this case supplies another basis for a decision to remand for a new trial. They says the misconduct was, one, the prosecutor repeatedly requested sympathy for the victim during the Wadir. This is the same one that got rejected for the other guy. It's the same shit engaged in an improper prejudicial closing argument all this shit uh the prosecutor began asking the jury to have sympathy for the victim which i think every prosecutor does that don't think the angle of justice their their whole thing there so otherwise they'd be like i mean you know fuck

that guy but you know what we're saying right listen everybody deserves some sort of punishment but we think he just got a little too carried away with this one. Yeah, he's a dick. But does he deserve to die? Yeah. Well, this one, they said there was that they tried to inflame the passions of the jury. And they also said that the the comments during closing arguments that it was the job of the defense attorney to, quote, get the clients off. arguments that it was the job of the defense attorney to quote, get the clients off. So they were saying that's, that implies that they're saying they can do illegal things and untoward

things to get them off rather than just, it's a job. So they said, they said it was a gross misstatement of the role to be fulfilled by the defense counsel. The basic duty of the lawyer for the accused owes to the administration of justice and is to serve the accused counselor as the accused counselor and advocate with courage, devotion and the utmost of his or her learning and ability, according to the law and defend the rights of the accused. That's their fucking job. It's a brutal job. It's an awful job, but you can't.

But it's necessary. You're freeing murderers. That's not cool. No, it's super necessary. So they also said it's unprofessional conduct for a lawyer intentionally to misrepresent manners of fact to a court to a law of the court so the verdict here is reversed really new trial for dickie jones new trial whole new trial not just the sentence whole thing is reversed new trial 1988 he gets a retrial

basically after that appeal no evidence is allowed in basically the only evidence that is allowed in is wayne thompson's testimony and his testimony is he was asleep the whole time i did it he was asleep i did everything he was asleep the whole time so uh now the whole thing the prosecutors are trying to get basically they're trying to get it in that he killed his main witness against him they're like he stabbed to death his the main fucking witness against him you can't say that either we don't have proof of that that was the thing so they couldn't even introduce that so they were like shit what do we do here so this is what happens when you run down and sully the reputation of a defense attorney

now you got the fucking hard part that's now you're stuck with this shit so they said although one prosecution witness testified that dickie jones admitted during a conversation in jail that he helped keen he helped kill keen that's the only thing they have against him everything else is nothing so not guilty is the verdict and he got to murder somebody walks he got to murder two people for fuck's sake allegedly one and then definitely two so out of everybody definitely one and possibly two yeah so that's a fucking that's crazy and he's the guy who gets let out not guilty he is free to go after the decision they just open the doors and let him out wow wow they said that his lawyer said that quote he just cried he wasn't

able to say anything for quite some time. He underwent a religious conversion down there and attributed the verdict to God's will. Oh, you. You. Jesus Christ. Oh, Dickie Dickie balls. So 1994 comes around and Tony Mann loses another appeal here. 1995. He has another appeal.

And this is one. He has a totally new angle now. This is for a conflict of interest with his attorney. Okay? Check this out. Man's attorneys, Red Ivy. One of his attorney's names is Red Ivy, Jimmy. Could you hire a person named Red Ivy to represent you in a fucking death penalty trial?

No, thanks. Jesus. And Stephen Buzin? B-U-Z-I-N. I'm going i'm gonna call it buzzing because he didn't do his job very well so i like boozing because maybe boozing steven's boozing he's boozing that red ivy yeah they had a conflict of interest in representing man at trial because they both represented another keen murder defendant dickie jones in an earlier trial you can't do that part of jones's defense was to insinuate that man and william wayne thompson were more culpable and had more motive for committing

the crime so they were when this trial is over we'll see y'all tomorrow while we represent that guy that's more culpable dude yeah it's like think about this they have like a pile of resources of like evidence and stuff and then they can dole it out to which case they can. What the fuck is that? That's awful. So they said after Jones was convicted in January 84, Ivy and Boozen went on to represent Mann in March of 84. The court finds that the multiple representation of Mann and Jones placed Ivy and Boozen in an ethically impossible uh with the actual adverse consequences for man one consequence arose when the attorneys weighed the option of having jones testify in man's trial

because that really fucks everything they needed him for that but then it fucks him so what do you do they decided against it because jones's testimony could be turned against himself in his appeal right so they protected one client at the expense of another which is tough part of man's defense was an attempt to show that he did not premeditate killing keen and he opposed the slaying of him during the abduction jones's testimony would have bolstered the defense theory of his non-culpability because he said he walked away but they wouldn't let him testify because it would hurt him because they wanted him to be culpable too the whole thing's a fucking mess man uh so they said out of all this he must receive a new trial new trial for man as well here they said we really feel like mr man's involvement

it was greatly less than others and we feel that the death sentence was unwarranted and the conviction was unwarranted okay so this is why the death penalty sucks hear me out everybody even if you love it not because killing complete assholes is necessarily a terrible thing the problem is we just can't do it fairly enough because people in general suck at their jobs that's why period not all of them but enough of them to make it a thing i was reading this this book and it's h john benjamin who's like archer and fucking all that and bob's burgers and he was talking the book is called uh um what is it uh failure the uh god damn it i've read it 20 fucking times i can't remember the name of it now the failure is an option it's called it's all about his

failures in life and he talks about how in every situation, every profession out there, maybe 10 percent of people are actually good at their jobs. You know, he went through like this is how many carpenters there are. That many people will fuck up your shit if you hire them. Like, it's just the way it is. Most people suck at what they do. So I don't know how I know how we can expect the entire judicial system to break that rule of human law. It just doesn't fucking work. That's why reviews are a thing. Exactly. So Mann ended up being convicted again. And this time, you, sir, may fuck off. He's sentenced to life without parole this time. So now he's in forever.

But he's off death row. He's off death row, though. 2003 wayne thompson's up for parole yeah okay it was 15 at the time now he's like 35 he the parole and the pardon and parole board recommends him for parole and he is sent to a prison work program that gives him greater freedom but the governor brad henry ends up declining to sign off on the release and they send him back to jail he says nope and goes back what the kid gets like fuck what's so uh the uh the university of oklahoma law professor who argued thompson's case before the supreme court said he never completely understood the reason behind the rejection.

He says Wayne falls into this abyss of people who are not sentenced to life without parole, but who are not given a decent hearing. So basically what they do is they sentence you to life with parole, but then they just never give you parole. So it's just de facto life without parole, they call it. There's been a big kerfuffle over it here. So over the years he earned his ged he also got an associate's degree took computer classes and became the administrator for his prison 12-step program so he's done everything they've asked him to do and everything they've asked and he's still fucking there then so jumped through the hoops

to get recommended for it and then some dick that knows nothing about this says no no don't think so so 2016 here um after what they call years of exemplary conduct as we explained thompson does get into trouble he gets into trouble for drug possession in prison nothing violent uh but that completely fucks his chances for parole now because now he can't even say he's perfect. Prison guards caught him with a half ounce of weed. Half ounce? And a half ounce of meth.

Oh, I'm sorry. Half ounce of weed and an ounce and a half of methamphetamine. Whoa. He's the fucking jail kingpin. He's the drug dealer in prison. Yeah. Yeah. And his lawyer said besides the drugs he's basically followed the rules uh his friends say and his family his mom specifically said that he was trying to sell the drugs in order to make money to support himself

in prison which that makes sense that's why people do that prisoners often depend on family and apparently nobody was sending him money so he doesn doesn't get, you know, you need, like, toiletries, phone calls, food that's not shit, that sort of thing. You need money for that shit. So it's tough for him. Once a year, his siblings buy him shoes and clothes, and they said, quote, he doesn't even like us to do that. He doesn't want to be a burden to the family. That's what his sister Cindy said. In 2018, he's up for parole again,

and the Pardon and Parole Board denies his parole again. An investigator for the board recommended in a report that Thompson be rejected, quote, not because of the drugs, quote, due to the nature and circumstances of the crime. So they're still, yeah, banging him for that. 2019 comes around. He's still in jail. He says, quote, I went 17 years without a misconduct and still couldn't get parole.

He said, it's been really frustrating. Now, I looked it up here, and apparently juvenile life without parole prisoners resentenced to life don't get paroled a lot. Really? Yeah. parole prisoners re-sentenced to life are don't get paroled a lot really so they yeah when they give you life with parole that basically means go fuck yourself anyway they said the 2018 the oklahoma pardon and parole board voted favorably to recommend parole for only 6.3 uh only 6.3 percent of the time in violent offender cases so he beat those odds and still got it rejected by the governor. So, yeah, between 2018 and 16, the board voted in favor of parole for violent offenders.

Just three point five six percent of the time on average. So you're not likely to get it there. They said, while the state need not guarantee eventual release to a juvenile murderer defendant sentenced to life without the possibility of or with the possibility of parole in order to be constitutional such a sentence must present the defendant some realistic opportunity to obtain release which is very fucking fair they said they have oklahoma has some juvenile offenders serving multiple consecutive life sentences which juvenile sentencing reform people say are unconstitutional

so that means they'll be in there forever they said they're essentially life without parole sentences without being called that so end around basically they said nobody wants to take a chance because they don't want to be blamed for the one in 10 who might do something which is true they don't want to be the ones who was who paroled him right traditionally the pardon and parole board have always looked at the question of why should this person be let out? But we are now being asked to look at why these individuals should stay in. That's that's a lot. So they said that Thompson won't be eligible for parole again till 2021.

So this year, his family's launched a Facebook group to try and gain public support for his release. So he said, I've already been tried, convicted and sentenced. Aren't you supposed to judge me on what I've done since then? So it's hard. It's hard to argue with this kid. Hard to argue that he deserves a shot because I number one, too. He wasn't the ringleader. This is the difference.

If he was the ringleader of a group of 15 year olds, that would be slightly different because that's like an adult skill to organize a hit crew and all that. But if you're the youngest by far in the group, including your brother who's 12 years older than you is in the group, you're not the shot caller, man. You know, like no matter what he said or no matter how he tried to oh i'm a kid i can i'll say i did all this it ain't him man it's just not no matter how bad you want to be a baller you ain't it but you ain't you ain't it ain't a shot caller either so lately thompson's high school girlfriend got back a hold of him, Donetta Bradford, who had testified against him. She said she believed she said the only way

that he did it because he thought it was the only way to protect his family. That's why he killed Buck. And the two have reconnected since he's been in prison. And she says, quote, he shouldn't have done what he did, but Wayne was a kid who pretty much didn't see any other way to stop it. The adults were not taking care of it that's true that's the point right there that's what i mean

with a 15 year old they're reactionary they do what their environment uh makes them to basically that's how kids work just the way it is same as a dog same as a dog man it's whatever you put into it is gonna you're gonna get out of it so mean, yeah, some kids grow up in perfect environments and they fucking go off and kill people. Some kids come up in terrible environments and they just get straight A's and get scholarships. But the average of it is basically, you know, kind of you are a reflection of your environment. It happens. So, he's in there. I guess if you want him to be out of prison you

can join the facebook group or whatever if you don't care fuck it who gives a shit but either way it was a good story it's a great story and we hope you enjoyed it a lot because it's a wild one uh we had a crazy time telling it so uh if you did enjoy that story tell the world about it tell most of all apple podcasts that purple icon give us five stars it's very important and we don't know why say whatever you want just the five stars are important and you got to say something we get it it takes 30 seconds to sign in but it took a lot longer to figure out all these fucking people and how they're related to each other so you should you should do that i want to know what dickie's done since i want to know if he's been in jail since since he's been out yeah that would be interesting no shit so uh anyway since his name is richard

jones is the problem that is hard to find it was hard to find like who the fuck he was because i that's the thing i found a lot of those so there's a lot of richard jones is out there unfortunately so head over to shut upAndGiveMeMurder.com for everything about the show, both shows, Crime and Sports and Small Town Murder, everything about it. Check it all out there. Listen to Crime and Sports if you haven't yet, because it's good shit.

This week, we did Michael Irvin. Everybody knows who Michael Irvin is. He's been on TV for 35 years. So, Michael Irvin, and we had the 2021 Scummy Awards, and they were phenomenal. So Michael Irvin and we had the 2021 Scummy Awards. Right. And they were phenomenal.

Somebody messaged me today, James, who I don't want to give a name or the thing that that person does. But somebody is in Michael Irvin's life and messaged me so much stuff about what he does today. It's still pretty bad. Oh, yeah. No, he's just figured out how to keep it under the radar keep his jobs that's what we were saying he's just he's he keeps it at a slow boil yeah it's at a simmer at all times you turn that heat up to like eight it's gonna fucking you know the lid's gonna start rattling but he knows how to keep it on it too for now that's how it works there so yeah listen

to that it was a wild episode also listen to ps i hate this movie because i am going to do once bitten this week god damn it with jim carrey from 86 and jimmy's going to be very excited i'm going to find that movie and watch it again i miss it that's so am i what are we going to do maybe we'll facetime we'll do it together i'd love to when i go we'll do it for another time we'll do when i leave i believe there's vampire boobs in that movie is there lauren huck no i don't know maybe lauren no i don't think her although you can see him I believe there's vampire boobs in that movie. Is there Lauren? No, maybe Lauren. No, I don't think her. Although you can see him through the,

through the sheer. Yeah. Yeah. We were kids when we watched this. So we were looking for any glimmer of boob we could possibly get. So there is that. Check all that out. Also Patreon.

Oh my goodness. Patreon.com slash crime and sports. All sorts of good stuff. Thank you so much for everybody that subscribes to us. You really are our lifeblood, and we want to give you the best possible shows, so we really go all out on those Patreon shows. Thank you for everything. Our last one we did was a guy named Harry Charles Moore in Oregon who was a complete psychopath whose family tree looked like a bougainvillea with thorns and things and like birds living in it. And it was goddamn crazy. If you like this show that we give you for free for two and a half hours, think about how much work we put into what you'll pay for.

We're giving you everything we got and more, and we're really trying for you guys. And the ones of you that are riding with us, we can't thank you enough. It's really some of the most fun I have thank you that's that's the truth jimmy you got it right there and uh the next one uh next week will be the prisoner dating game again everybody so that's the best one do it up sign up right now patreon.com slash crime in sports and anybody over the five dollar level gets access to both all the shows both shows bonus content and the whole back catalog and everything else and they get a shout out at the end of the show because they're a goddamn producer now and a fine wonderful wonderful person and if they just want to be a producer and have great karma and have our undying, forever enduring affection,

you can do that, too, over at PayPal using our email address, crimeandsports at gmail.com. And if you want to follow the show on social media, very easy to do. We are at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, at Small Town Murder on Instagram. Now that you know how to find us and all that sort of shit, I need to hear some good news, because this case was full of bad news.

So was the world. So was the world. I need to hear a list of, this is a safe place. Take me to a safe place full of the greatest people in the world who are our most wonderful, beloved people. Jimmy, hit me with them now. Sink me in the river while they're tied to my waist, please. This week's executive producers are Jordan Bennett, Cameron Koshwara, Diane Lewis, Joanne

Ahern, and Josh Sardo. Thank you, guys. You're goddamn heroes. Other producers this week are Robert Jones' daughter, Meredith, who had a birthday. She got him listening to the show. That's why he gives a shit. I mean, he gives a shit for more than that reason, I'm sure. But still, thank you.

We love it. Turning people on to the show is the greatest thing you could do. So thank you. Especially when it's your parents. That's fucking hilarious. Other producers are Trevor Lawson, Colin Fishbaugh, Pixie DeLeon, Morgan Rushing, Thomas DeMello. Where did I go?

God damn it. Jennifer Visconti. James Marder. Peyton Meadows. Carl Corporal Umlat Kushner. Who, by the way, something is wrong with my computer. Every time I type his name now, it does the umlots over the U. That's what those are called, right? Umlots?

Yeah, yeah. Now I think it's just in your memory. Now it's memorized. Now it never goes away, and I don't know how to stop it. Corporal Kushner gets umlots. That's right. Here it goes. It's out don't know how to stop it. Corporal Kirshner gets umlauts. That's right. Here it goes. It's out of control.

My computer's ruined. Andrew Vipond, I think. Vipond. Sarah Miller. Jesse Pitts in Tennessee. Thank you, Jesse. Steve Chanel in Pennsylvania. Thank you, Steve.

Thanks, Steve. Domestic Disaster Designs. Chain Grant. Fiona Light. Hannes Melkonianan. What? Whoa. No, that wasn't right.

That sounds tough. John Carney, Stephanie Grobeck, Albert Phillips, Julia Barth, Thomas Smith, Jessica Remick's husband, Mike the Bald Eagle, had a birthday. Mike the Bald Eagle Remick, obviously. Ashley Snyder, Janice Hill, Megan Hutchcraft, Susanna Platt, Amanda Jacobs, Natalie Ulven, Brendan Ables, John Brace, Todd Theroff, I think, Hannah Bragg, Molly McDermott, Katie Bailey, Myla Forbes, Jason, nope, that's James, Swin, Jordan Beach, Mark Gonzalez, Derek Edwards, Maury Allen, Jesus, Lauren Donahue, Kevin Cheek, John Wertz, Jacqueline Stoneking, Robert Flores,

Willie Roberts, Emma Claire Beckett, Olaf with no last name, Shelby with no last name, Michael Shielvibine, probably not. You were on a roll there, Jimmy. I know. I was really getting in it. You were cruising. I hit the pocket and I was running. Amy Hogan, Kelly Bishop, Paul Gibson, Kyle with no last name, Lucy with no last name, Rick Tavian Johnson, Amanda Foley, Daniel with no last name, Zach Cox, Elizabeth Wolfe,

Wendy Dragoon, Carrie Gibbons, Ashley with no last name, Reese Garrett, Alexis Schneider, Ashley Cooper, Michael Stanzel, Jacob Durst, Christopher North, Angie Olajio, I think, Hannah Walker, Ellery Dobe, Dobby, Dobby. I don't know. Tana Ayers. Fuck. I ruined it. Melissa Williamson, Erica Weasel Williams, Scott Cortez, Elise, Elisa, Elise Baker, Allison

Conover, Lexi McGinnis, Todd aggressively, Wardy Cochran. Hans Waldock. Like sly. James Miles. Tara Williams. Meals? Meals. I think it's meals. Brittany Greendeer. Rick Ferguson.

Peyton Riker. Shiloh Bailey. Ben Smith. Christine with no last name. Nathan Hill. Emma Wood. Abdi. Oh, Robbie?

Fuck. Sure. Wynne Abreel. Stella Arnott. Johnny Gardner.e morrison story michael trujillo christopher stotko kelly welchek kamala kamala kamala pomela brown sparks yep that's the one sean embry real meat kp with no last name sam Samuel Sloan Jr., Hannah Eisenberg, Paul Kay, Jill Elting, Madeline Jacquet, Catherine McCutcheon, Justin Kissel, Chris Roda, Zach Traylor, Kylie Kay, Thomas Rose, Maura Winter. Cooper Corajula. Oh, boy.

Brendan Chapman. Colton Kennan. Jessica Colling. Jesse Smith. Jamie Phillips. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Sex. Ignacio with no last name. Ed Flores.

Kelsey Hebert. She's back. Remember when you got her? Hey. Scary fucking stoned. Yeah, I got her in Chicago. Yeah. Sent her off into the night. I feel terrible.

Just walk off under those trains, Kelsey. Have a good night. uber or something we should have fuck uh josh weir flash nz jonathan hoskins michael shopp uh sarah hollingsworth cindy rodriguez roni schirmer scheim jessica fancher barry mcconner mcockner, Barry McCockner, gotcha Barry, I'm on board, you beat me. Tiff Jimenez, Iris Ferretta, Sabrina Ehler, Christy Patrio Salio, nope, Ryan LeClaire, Nick Dunn, Michaela Campbell, Michael Wojoccio. What? Randy Newton, Brenda Flinton, Theron Jones, Sam Fairley-Watson, Sandra with no last name, Abigail Fisher, Megan with no last name, Catherine Catalano, Tony Colormali. What? Collar Maleel?

Colormali. That's the one grant mac serena mossberg matt schrader uh anthony johnson rain ashley dot a dove and dustin edwards jack ellis dave david so a t a sody soat carol with no last name kelly fleshman uh zach norman christine christian denhardt, Nick Wicken, Jeremy Manning, Anna Gay, Tom Campbell, Alyssa Wilson. What the fuck? Melissa Butler. Elliot with no last name. Jordan Hennon.

Kimberly Bridges. James Davenport. Lily with no last name. Kristen Maturski. Zach Katz. Shiftavious Bunkshank, I think. That's a handle. It is.

Eugene Marder. Allie S. with no last name, just the S. Kennedy Cork. Rebecca Boland. Joshua Slotky. Katie Bailey. Dizzy Davis. That's a handle. Sorenson, Veronica Jensen, Leon Deacon, Alvaro Rocha, Alexa Robinson, Don Murray, Gregory Smith, Only One Echo, Haley Sample, Jack Nichols, Jay Vaughn, Casey Jones, Tequila Dickerson, Bella Eakins, Samantha Clare, John B. with no last name, Amanda Harper, Terry Lischka, and Amy Farr, and obviously all of our patrons. You guys are really the wind beneath our wings. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much, everybody. We really, really appreciate it so much. Honestly, we said it before, and we're not overselling it. We can't overstate or oversell how much you mean to us for anything you do. Those Patreon donations, that means the world to us. And we will fight and bleed and die for those shows. We really want those to be fun. So we hope you enjoy them.

And thank you for everything you do for us. Jimmy, what can they do for you? Or what can they say to you? Or what can they ask you to do for them? How do they get a hold of you? Over there on social media, at Wisman Sucks, I'm around. Thank you guys so much for being around with us. And I'm stunned that 30,000 people give a fuck what my dinner looks like on Instagram.

It's staggering. And I'm really thankful for all you guys. Thank you. Where can they find you? Thank you. Same sentiments for me honestly thank you so much for giving two shits and caring that i moved and stuff and see by the way isn't it isn't the show fine now isn't it great so we're here together hi jimmy hey we're right we're sitting next to each other still as we told you nothing would change and the

show nothing's changed just like we said so thank you for believing us and hanging out with us. If you want to find out more, I'm at Jimmy P is funny or just Google us. You know how to find us. That said, wild episode. And guess what? Going to be even wilder next week. It always is. Yeah.

You know, I can't wait either, Jimmy. I can never wait. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts.

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