Small Town Murder - #222 - Murder Shoes & Fabulation - Grafton, Wisconsin

Episode Date: May 6, 2021

This week, in Grafton, Wisconsin, a body is found by a friend, who immediately decides that he must've taken his own life... until bruises & 57 stab wounds are found on him. Investigators have nowhere to look, but luckily for them, the murderers tell plenty of people about what they did. The question is, are they the actual murderers, or just prolific storytellers? Along the way, we find out that gas may be an issue in Wisconsin, that telling everyone you've ever met about a murder that you committed may not be the best idea, and that you should never leave the house without your murder shoes! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts# See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Grafton, Wisconsin, where bruises and 57 stab wounds are found on a body leading the investigation to a pair of brothers, a broken bong, and a lot of stories. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us again and again on another crazy... We've had so much crazy stuff us again and again on another crazy we've had not so fun so much crazy stuff going on lately with this show just every case just gets weirder and weirder i always think well you know we're gonna run out of weird cases and there's like hundreds of them there's a

backlog of them we couldn't we'd be old and gray before we'd be done telling the crazy crazy shit that happens on this show. So thank you. And we hope you've been enjoying it. We have definitely been enjoying it. Thank you, especially to everyone who's given us reviews this week and forever. Thank you. If you haven't done it yet, please get on Apple podcast, that purple icon. Give us five stars.

It helps a lot. We don't know why. So just do it. And it helps. Thank you very, very much for doing that. Also, head over to shut up and give meMurder.com right now because if you're listening when this comes out, which is May 6th, 2021, today is the virtual live show for crime and sports. It's a huge deal.

Get your tickets. It's about Suge Knight. So it's not about sports. It's basically us telling a crime story that doesn't take place in a small town. Stay them tonight. It's pretty cool. So check it out. It's going to be a crime story that doesn't take place in a small town. Stay them tonight. It's pretty cool. So check it out. It's going to be wild.

Lots of fun. And it's going to be available for 72 hours after tonight as well. So get your tickets right now. Shut up and give me murder.com for that. Also, Patreon. Patreon, man, if you missed the last round of Patreon that we released the past weekend, good stuff. We did the college admissions scandal,

the one that ensnared Felicity Huffman and Aunt Becky. She's a real housewife, right? Yeah. Or not a real housewife. Desperate housewife. Yeah, those are different housewives completely. Well. They should be the other way around, honestly, the titles there.

The ones on the real housewives seem very desperate. I think there was murder involved in one of those shows. Probably. Maybe both. Who knows? Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. That New Jersey one's questionable. Oh, yeah.

That was an old school one there. Yeah. So, check all that out. We did that deal and we talked all about that. And then we also did a bonus episode this last weekend about cult deprogramming. Yeah. We talked all about that. And we heard about a man named Black Lightning who would kidnap people off the street and

yell at them for three days. So that's wild. The tactics of everyone you would expect named Black Lightning. It's amazing. The light. Yeah. Wow. The lightning is the kidnapping.

It's crazy stuff. His tactics were. I never knew that no it's i figured that cultly programming was something like the cia has like a special like yeah some special trick put some sensors on your skull nope figure out how to wipe it no a dude yells at you for three days in a holiday inn with the windows nailed shut that's basically a little your favorite person that's how it works patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you get that and brand new episodes all the time. And you get the whole back catalog and everything else.

So log on to that. Plus, we're going to give you a shout out. Jimmy will mispronounce your name. Oh, yeah. So can't go wrong there. It's a two for one deal, really. And if you just want to be a good person with good karma and get your name mispronounced, you can also just go to PayPal and use our email email address crime and sports at gmail.com right and holy crap are we thankful

for everything you people do unbelievably grateful so much and for that what we do have to do is the disclaimer this is a comedy show it is we're comedians and so we're going to make jokes about things and people are going to die both of those things are going to happen in the next couple hours we promise not to kill anyone. First of all, we didn't do it. And second of all, we go out of our way to try not to make fun of the victim or the victim's family

because we're assholes. But we're not scumbags, Jimmy. That is our promise? Creed? That's the balancing act, how this works. You know when you push in a clutch and it's like you've got to get the balance between the clutch and the gas? Yeah, finesse it, baby. That's how this works you know when you push in a clutch and it's like you gotta get the balance between the clutch and the gas yeah finesse it man

that's how it works here so if that sounds good to you then great we are gonna have a wild time and hear a crazy story if not then maybe this isn't for you but you should probably give it a shot but no complaining later

because we warned you that said I think it's time to sit back and shout shut up and give me murder let's do this Jimmy I cannot wait let's go on a trip shall we let's do it alright I think it's time to sit back and shout, shut up and give me murder.

Let's do this, Jimmy. I cannot wait. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. All right. Let's head north. We're heading northward, and we are heading up to Wisconsin. How far are we?

Where are we? Indiana? Where were we? Kansas. Oakley, Kansas. Oh, yes. That terrible motel. Right.

Sunglasses, capital of the world. Oh, baby. We're pumping them out. Got them blades for you. So Grafton, Wisconsin this time. Back up to Wisconsin. This is in southeast Wisconsin. This is Milwaukee suburbs.

Got it. We got here. So we're getting close. We've been kind of out in the middle of nowhere for a bunch of episodes. So I was like, let's get closer to a suburban thing here. So it's about 25 minutes to Milwaukee, about 40, I'm sorry, an hour and 40 minutes to Madison, Wisconsin, over to the west there, and about three hours and 15 minutes to Colby, Wisconsin,

home of the infamous, infamous Colby cheese murders, which took place, obviously, our last Wisconsin episode. Are they infamous or not famous? Well, I mean, a little of both, honestly. I think they're famous now. More people tweeted about the Colby Cheese murders and did social media shit about that than most murders that actually happened. So, you know what?

It's pretty interesting. This is in Ozaukee County. Ozaukee County? O-Z-A-U This is in Ozaukee County. Ozaukee County. O-Z-A-U-K-E-E. Ozaukee? Yeah, they take part of Milwaukee and stick it into that without the L. It's all weird. It's got to be a Native American spelling, right?

I'm sure, yeah. It's got to be. Area code 262. It's about five square miles. And the town motto right on their website is quality life, period. Naturally, period. Okay. So it's very, very well punctuated.

I'll give them that. That's they punctuated it. Or, and I'm not even going to make any joke you want about either bratwurst, cheese, or the Packers. You can just mix those together. Or, you know, quality football games at Lambeau field with cheese it doesn't matter just whatever joke you want in there two words sour stomach yeah let's go so it's amazing it's like a choose your own adventure joke now it's we know it's we know what's going to be there yeah just pick so the history of this town a guy named timothy wooden he arrived here in 1839 from the

east yeah and he's considered the first you the first white dude to be the permanent resident here. Really? Otherwise, this was all Native Americans, obviously. And the majority of the early residents were immigrants from Germany and Ireland. So that's why everybody's very white in Wisconsin. That explains so much. Yeah, and also, who likes to yeah jimmy and sauerkraut and shitty food who likes all these things who likes to drink and eat sour foods boil some meat

and put cabbage on it and i'm gonna drink beer and i'm gonna see how much i can fart later because that's seems like it's a state built on farting between the cheese and the kraut and the beer. Good God, what a gassy place it must be up there. We've been to Milwaukee. I don't know if they have a very good ventilation system in the theater or what, but I didn't smell anything. So, I don't know. They were nice people. I mean, the people that we've met there were very normal, but anybody that I've met that has left that state, perhaps it's when they leave. Their ears are holy shit huge.

The people that I've met from Wisconsin that don't live in Wisconsin any longer. What do you grow ears? I don't know, man. They're like hobbits. You take them out of your climate and their ears grow. Wisconsin keeps their ears down? I guess. So if your ears are getting out of control, move to Wisconsin, everybody.

The home of manageable ears. That's the state's, that's actually the motto of the town. Man if your ears are getting out of control, move to Wisconsin, everybody. The home of manageable ears. That's the state's, that's actually the motto of the town. Manageable ears. I know like 12 people from Wisconsin and all their ears are holy shit big. Wow. People from Wisconsin, take a picture of your ear in relation to a Coke can, like some pervert sending you a dick pic and then send us that because we're real not the dick pic the ear pic and we want to know if your ears have grown perhaps the weather keeps it keeps them from from

really reaching their full potential maybe once they get to the desert maybe they were big and no one noticed because they were wearing the hat with the ear flaps down on the side there with you know what i mean one of those because it's very cold and then when they take it off people like holy shit i had a boss whose ears were like a third of his head wow where are you from sir badger shirt really tells me a story jimmy's impugning a whole state over a guy he knew with big ears one guy he knew and he was an asshole so yeah i found everything about him to be offensive swedish people are tall how do you know that i knew a swedish feller he was six foot eight so they're all tall over there so that's amazing so they created the town officially in 1846 this is the territorial legislature and the village ofrafton was incorporated in 1896. But people were living there for a while. It was the site of the Milwaukee Falls Lime Company.

I don't believe you. Where they had the lime wars, where they would squeeze citrus over the top of a fallen foe. You know that it was because of that. I'm not going to. I swear to God, I'm not going to make up any stories about this one. You think I'd make up another one about Wisconsin? I'll pick another state. Not a chance. Yeah, you're never going to know it's coming when it's coming. Everyone expects it now. You're all on your toes.

I get it. So the Milwaukee Falls Lime Company, which quarried limestone and operated lime kilns to manufacture slaked lime. Slaked? Slaked. I don't know what the fuck that is, but it sounds like it probably smelled bad here at one point while shit was burning. Burn it, yeah. Any kind of kiln is not going to be a good smell.

No. The kilns are preserved, actually, in Grafton's Lime Kiln Park on the west bank of the Milwaukee River. They put the kilns on the beach? On the river, yeah. They used to put all this shit on the river because that way you could whatever you're you're producing you can put it right on a boat and get it out of there you don't have to there's no ground shipping

at that point from your side i wonder how they preserve that the kilns yeah like a plexiglass plexiglass box around on the roof i have no idea they preserve anything like an autographed baseball yeah i think so like it Like just a clear box, maybe. You can go and look at it. Yeah. They got to slide one of the things up. Yeah. Which one is it?

And which direction does it go? Shit, does it go? I think it's upside down. It goes down. Can't do it. So basically, this was a big deal. The lime kilns was like where everybody worked and shit until the 1920s. And then it kind of went down a little bit.

In the early 20th century, the Wisconsin Chair Company operated a furniture factory in the village. I heard they were vicious people. They fought a lot. The Wisconsin Chair Company. Yeah, they'd break chairs over each other. Them and the Lazy Boy people went to work. Yeah, they did, and they'd leave scattered just legs and just pieces of chair on a man, to let you know. This company here manufactured phonographs, which is...

The chair company made record players? They did. They were a furniture company, I guess, and they made phonograph players. Fascinating. So the company originally manufactured phonographs exclusively for Edison Records, but in 1917 started its own paramount records subsidiary which became famous for producing a lot of the first blues and jazz records awesome which is pretty cool and uh yeah it's estimated that a quarter of all of these you know blues and jazz records of like black artists from this time uh released between 1922 and 1932

were on this label wow so yeah it, yeah, it was really interesting. They would originally. Well, yeah, originally everything was being recorded in Chicago until the Paramount headquarters and studio moved to Grafton, and then all these big artists, these big blues artists, came to Grafton to record. Wow. That's where they recorded.

They stopped recording music in 1932 due to the depression and then paramount records closed in 1935 and they knocked the building down and all that but uh grafton is one of the few sites on the mississippi blues trail that's not in the south how about that so it's pretty you wouldn't expect that never so it's got a lot of interesting you know kind of black history in it for a town with not a lot of black people, which is weird. Yeah. In a state that has some of the fewest. Yeah. Also has some unfortunate white history, as we'll talk about here in a minute.

And this is just an unfortunate history period. In the late 1930s, a group of, so this is pre-World War II, for our involvement anyway, a group of pro-Nazi German Americans who, you know, they weren't like, you see, neo-Nazis. Now, they were actually going, I like what this Hitler guy's saying, as he was saying it. Right. Not even in the rear view. In memoriam. He's like, yep, yep. I like this yelling and screaming.

This is good. He's out there. They're like, I'm hearing him. I like this. This is good. But in their defense, they probably were immigrants from that country in the first place. Then you'd know even more that he was crazy. You'd be like, Jesus Christ, if I saw an American going nuts and waving his arms around and

screaming, Hitler's speeches were crazy. Like they were like you expected him. He looked like he was in such a fucking just a fury. It looked like he was going to stop and grab an old lady out of the front row and suplex her just to get some energy out and then continue with the speech. Like, that's the type of it's like it was wild. He looked like if he didn't get these words out right now, he would spontaneously combust. And it might anyway.

And it might as it's happening because he's venting the fucking cauldron. Yeah, it was wild. He always would like raise his head up. He's fucking nuts, man. So anyway, these guys affiliated with the German American Bund or Bund purchased land on the Milwaukee River in Grafton, and they ran a private camp called. Jimmy, this is bad for a bad hindsight. Actually, this happened before this camp hindenburg oh them bastards why would you name your camp after the largest failure of this thing you're

purporting to say is better than most what the fuck that's known so many people i mean just a disaster that you know just whoa we didn't do that right. That would be like an American one. I don't even know who made it. Whoever made it, calling it Camp Titanic. It's not smart. Makes no sense. Yeah, they came into the town village to march with Nazi flags and meet at the Grafton Hotel. So this was a big deal.

The camp closed during World War II in 1941 because they weren't having that shit while people are while we were actually fighting these people so uh grafton experienced a big population growth during the time after world war ii and uh the from 1950 to 1980 it basically was like six times bigger sure so it grew a lot as most things did at that point and also suburbs grew a lot so people could commute commute to Milwaukee in the 60s. They made interstates in there. So it made it easier. We found reviews here.

Here's a five-star review. This is nice here. Five-star review. Nice. We always give it the good one. Just to set the table. Five stars. Quiet, but yet a lot of places to eat and shop.

Very concerned with places to eat, these people. All these reviews. Quiet, yeah. Okay, I got it. It's quiet, but there's still hustle and bustle. You can get to the little main street and they got stuff. You can get it if you want it. I have lived here for 15 plus years and have always enjoyed the people here.

Everyone is friendly and there's plenty to do with friends. Grafton is actually on Lake Michigan and there's a wonderful nature reserve on the lake on the outskirts of the town because everyone is very gassy you don't feel bad about releasing it in public no that's not in there but that should be i think it gets a little chilly in the winter months a little it's fucking wisconsin what do you want you get a lake effect for christ's sake yeah that's like saying santa does some traveling in december we get it um a little chilly a little chilly but the summer months makes it all worth it which yeah i mean it's that that three weeks that you have a summer is it makes it very much worth it here's one this is a one star not happy at all with this town. Not very friendly. Very small. Really nothing to write home about. Fucking cold.

The weather, terrible. Great pizza and grocery stores, which is unexpected. An unexpected compliment here. Depending on what I love to know. I don't know what their version of, yeah. This person's from, you know, fucking, I don't know, North Dakota probably. They don't know. You will soon get

sick of the same restaurants over and over okay the schools are good it is a very boring town these are all individual sentences very succinct when people say quote small town just replace it with quote boring and lonely jesus christ oh they didn't know that's what that was that's yeah uh wow properties are cheaper than cedarburg and the property taxes are good them goddamn cedarburg people with their expensive ass houses robbing folks bullshit i ain't paying cedarburg prices over here and the property taxes are good i lived there for six years and it was very hard to make friends people are not very friendly and it's not very diverse okay okay i had a rough time there didn't like it very much two stars grafton is a small-minded conservative community that said it is that is said to be a quote great place to raise a family

i was bullied by people for being myself in their middle school system this is a high school kid who's pissed off yeah i'm really disappointed with the people being so closed off to expression i don't know what they're talking about but i'm sure i hope that's not an adult being themselves in the middle school yeah right they don't like expression i took my dick out in front of the 12 year olds and they were like that's not expression and i was like yes it is i drew a happy face on it i'm expressing myself no so and then here's a mediocre three stars very succinct people are very succinct here it's very specific uh yeah but it's right up the middle this is i don't know what but this is succinct but also vague at the same time quote it's a small town many strong opinions three stars for that three stars many strong opinions. Three stars for that? Three stars. Many strong opinions you have about the town or people that live there have strong opinions.

And some of those opinions are right. Some of those opinions are wrong. That's what I mean. So there's three stars. They're just strong opinions. Many strong opinions. I have some stuff to say, but I ain't going to say it right now. And they're right.

They're just too strong about it. Yeah, it's a little much here. A little too much for Wisconsin. So population of this town, 4,124 people in this town. Is that right? No, that's not right. I'm sorry. 11,715 people in this town.

That's a lot more. There we go. Yeah, that's how it works. The female population, and male, way more males than females. It's 54% male, which is well out of whack with anything. I don't know why. Manufacturing is the main job here, so maybe've done pretty well for themselves getting people here. Median age is 46, which is well older than the 37 1⁄2. It's average, but there's not a lot of old people.

It's just a few more of the older ones. It's not like, because some of these towns will have four times the over 85 population. You're like, what the shit happened here? A lot of married people. It's a suburban, and a great place to raise a family as in quotes as they say they're 60

married as opposed to 50 being the norm um the divorce rate's a little lower than normal by the way the divorce rate went up this past year so did it really good job america how much not much like half a percent but that's a lot that's something it's a lot when you consider 330 million people staying home by themselves i am not doing this for one more day with you with you i mean i would rather go to a courthouse and chance dying yeah than be with you not doing it not doing it uh single people with no children, less than 5% here. So this is not a swinging party town where you go to pick up chicks or pick up dudes or whatever you're doing here. Now, race of this town, 94% white.

Fascinating. Which, yeah, unexpected when I read about Paramount Records there. 3% black and 0.0% Asian. How is that possible? I don't know how you can really have any town. How can you have 12,000 people in America with Nari and Asian? How is that possible? Like, that's like, the town's only have 400 people.

It's in the middle of nowhere. And I'm like, okay, whatever. But do you not have a fucking Chinese restaurant in this goddamn town? It's worth a shit. Not to be stereotypical, but even that, like just a fucking family that runs a restaurant? Yeah. Nothing? That's crazy.

And 2.2% Hispanic. So it's just white here. That's got to be an East Coast thing, I think. What? That somebody in town, an Asian family, runs a restaurant. Because the only Asian kids that i ever knew nope three of them ran for restaurants yeah it's a lot of the small towns if there's a few asians that's it's a you know it's the same thing they

used to be in the midwest it was tons of places that would have you know four italian families and there'd be two pizza places and a barber shop and that and a fucking deli and that's what we ran that's the way it is so i'll be honest with you if there's a family of asian people in my small town and a white family runs the chinese restaurant i'm upset i'm furious stop that don't do that don't do that a lot of religion this 64 religious here which is strange uh 33.6 catholic also that's odd a lot of lutherans 19 percent lutheran so lutherans representing strong here 0.8 percent jewish damn it so close oh so close it's so far away last election in uh zaki county uh 37 percent of the people voted

democrat 55.8 percent voter republican 7.2 independent independent actually so that's it's a lot and employment rate is about normal at this point in time household income though is high actually here we have uh normally it's about 57 000 here it is 97 328 so that's a lot it's almost double for christ's sake but there's double the manufacturing jobs okay as a as average so as we found in these towns that tends to ebb and flow a lot so it'll be you know if a factory shuts down that's peaks and valleys that hurts the wage is bad but if one opens up then you're you're doing a big boom here cost Cost of living, 100 being regular average. Here it's 106.

So it's a little bit high. Housing is the high one, actually. 114 out of 100. But still, you're making way more money than the rest of everybody. So you're doing great. It evens out. Yeah, the median home cost here is $262,600. So that's not too much over the national average. And if we've convinced you, damn it, that, you know what, you have not had enough sauerkraut

and your ears are a little bit big and you need to cut some size off. And we have for you the Grafton, Wisconsin real estate report. Your average two bedroom rental here goes for about nine hundred918, which is well below the national average. So with the housing, that seems like the way to go here right now, rent. But if you have to buy, I found some things for you. Here we go. Let's take you around. I found a three-bedroom, one-bath, 1,020 square feet.

Small. That's pushing it for three bedrooms. That's 100 by 10. That's small. That's a small place three bedrooms. That's 100 by 10. Yeah. That's small. That's a small place. Decent, clean little house, though. Little yard.

Nice little neighborhood. $148,000. Okay. That's about as cheap as you're going to get here. Then I found a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,618 square feet. That's more like it for three bedrooms. It's on a quarter acre, so it's got a decent size yard and everything like that. It's nice.

It's updated. It's fine. Yeah. And I say that all with lowercase letters. You know what I mean? I'm not, it's not. It'll do. It'll shout off the top of the mountain, but you look at it and you go, yeah, I can live

here. This is good. My family will be comfortable. $249,900. Okay. So that's kind of your entry level decent house that you're going to find here. Then you run the line kiln. Okay.'ve got it all here you're running the factory i found a three bedroom three bath t-ball for each and every b-hole anyway 5,311 square feet oh those are big

rooms those are big room 5,000 only three bedrooms holy shit Probably one they turn into a big office, I'm sure, and shit like that. It's on 1.5 acres, a very nice yard with trees. It's private. It's very nice. Big windows with light coming through. Nice yard. Gorgeous. $819,000 for that.

For a three-bed, three-bath. I don't think so. I don't think so. Not happening. You got it out of your goddamn mind. That's incredible. That's wild. You'd want a couple more bedrooms for that price.

I would fucking hope you would. I would anyway. Or, I mean, the size is big. This isn't for like somebody with five kids, obviously. But if you, you know, whatever, I don't know. 5,000 square feet. It's just too expensive. I can't wrap my head around how there's only three bedrooms.

I'm not living in suburban Milwaukee for $800-something thousand dollars. It's not happening. So that's just, no. Sounds like a great property. No offense, suburban Milwaukee, but that's expensive, and you know it. You wouldn't pay it either. So that's why I'm saying that. Things to do.

That's a financial decision, not a cultural one. Things to do here. I found the Paramount Music Festival. Yes. So they do this all the time. Of course, it starts off right away. Quote, it kicks off right away a quote it kicks off with the poor a beer and wine tasting event so it is wisconsin so we're gonna get you shit

face first no matter what yeah that's happening tickets for this are 25 in advance for just the boo just the but it's probably unlimited oh that's right as much as you can fart you know and so 35 at the gate but you get a lot of great samples to enjoy you better get more than samples yeah five to thirty five dollars jesus christ and how big is a sample it's a wisconsin it's a wisconsin it's probably it's a six-pack like a giant stein it's a stein that's a sample we went uh with sarah me we me and sarah sarah and i went to this uh mac and cheese fest hell yeah across the river here in new y. You went out to a festival. We went.

It's out. Where the hell was it? Montgomery. It was out across the river in West Virginia, New York. You go past Newburgh, and then it turns into Farms, and it's out there. And it was this weird little thing, and there was like these tents, and there was some mac and cheese. And it was not fun.

Not what you expected. No. It was exactly what you expected. It was exactly. We got there. We ate really you expected. No. It was exactly what you expected. It was exactly. We got there. We ate really good barbecue. Yeah. We had a couple of samples of mac and cheese, and then we went home.

That was it. We bought these VIP tickets, so we get the free food and all this shit. Which ones did you get? Was there jalapenos in there or anything? We were there for 45 minutes. Was there spice? No, we got a really good one from the barbecue place that had some breadcrumbs on it. Shells and cheese kind of macaroni?

No, no, no. Actual elbows? No, the kebapie. Yeah. And it had which i like prefer because it holds the cheese it does and it had that our shells are good too and it also had like uh like a little bit of their barbecue sauce in it like which was unbelievable then i had one that was like mac and cheese baked into a meatball that was pretty pretty fucking good that was good it was good like mac and cheese and then wrapped in meat it was a meatball and then you bit into it there was mac and cheese inside okay it was like in the mac and cheese was it like it was straight mac and cheese that's that's the

question it was badass but it was like it's a mac and cheese filled meatball it was like a four italian cheese mac and cheese meatball i don't know this lady who made cookies and shit how do you do that it's crazy you can't fucking put a syringe in there and inject mac and cheese no you can't no it's that's how do you do it i don't know but then that's this kind of thing we you know went to a small festival to try to do it yeah so uh anyway the bands here there's a bunch of bands i don't think this quite lives up to the legend of the paramount records deal here but uh we have michael ammons and the water street hot shots yeah bands a lot of bands like that milwaukee mike and the mob and i don't know these might be great bands that if you know

this uh the chain smoking altar boys okay those are words they really it all sounds like it's like from the blues brothers you know you haven't named a band so far that go together no milwaukee mike and the mob and the mob yeah right no it makes no sense not a guy not anything no the guy's never met anybody in the mob no never does he knows nothing chain smokers altar boys what unless it's the colby cheese mafia that's the only way and then there's a discontinued one i found called grilling and grafting that's not going on anymore but i they just it was a lot of people eating barbecue in the sun sure so that's something and now crime rate in this town what we're interested in here yeah property crime is about one-third under the national average so

not bad and violent crime murder rape robbery and obviously assault mount rushmore of crime is about two-thirds under the national average. Mad safe. Very, very safe town anyway. So that said, let's talk about a brutal, awful, vicious murder that happened here. And it's a winner. So, you know, it happens. That's kind of why we do the show, damn it, because of the town. It's so safe. It's a place to raise a family.

Two-thirds under the whole deal. And then you go, let's talk about a person who was carved up into fucking 30 pieces yeah it's terrible but i mean it's weird to think about sure it happens you're not safe damn it nobody is not another one of you nobody's safe you ever break up with somebody you're in danger good god have you heard our show or any show or seen a tv show or a movie or been in a relationship it's going bad for you yeah it's possible head on a swivel people let's go so anyway uh let's go back in time a bit i like it we were uh i think we were up a little bit more current in the last one if i believe mad current yeah yeah right up to this here we are going to january 26th 1982 hell yeah 82 yeah. 82 in Wisconsin. Beautiful.

Mullets just blowing in the breeze as they ride fucking quads around the woods to go in and drink beer. And they're close to Milwaukee. The amount of Harleys up here is insane. Oh yeah, because the Harleys. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy

up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina

Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-rese well researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.

Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Here he is. I was watching the first four. Is he a biker? He better be. I know. He's like an 18-year-old kid. Okay. He's kind of a douche who's looking for weed, which isn't a douchey thing to do. I love to look for weed. Just a burnout at 18. But he's just looking for weed in Wisconsin so he can let his mullet blow in the breeze as he takes his quad into the woods to smoke it and drink beer.

That's what's going to go on here. So, yeah, the Leather Man. We're watching First 48, and this one episode is like a special episode and for some reason it's narrated by ice tea oh that's great and the guy's name is zimmerman the detective and he keeps going so zimmerman he keeps calling him zimmerman like his name is zimmer man so zimmerman does this and so anybody with a man now is he's the leather man leather man does this that's watched a few too many steven seagal movies there ice detective zimmer man let's crack it up so oh fuck this jonathan leather man uh january 26 1982 9.30 a.m., he makes a phone call to his buddy, Christopher E. Moore.

And it's M-O-H-R like J. Moore. Okay. So, yeah. The worst spelling. Right away, we're like, yeah. The worst way to spell that. Yeah, don't spell like that. So, he calls Christopher E. Moore, who's another 18-year-old kid, calls him on the phone.

And this is, by the way, this is ambitious behavior for a pothead because it's 9 30 a.m you know i mean i'm not calling anybody you know me at 9 30 a.m you're not finding in many places or this kid's just got a wicked craving for a shake and bake well wake and bake and some shake he's gonna want shake and bake after the wake and bake jimmy what i really want right now i want to smoke a joint. And a nice pork chop. And then a pork chop, you know, shake and bake. Just a shake and bake pork chop. How the hell did I do that? That's going to be delicious.

Just chicken breast, you know. It's going to be good. That's just disgusting. Shake and bake is. It's so gross. It's just like salty gravel that you put on your pork chop. I'd like to put salty gravel on my work it's not breadcrumbs that's for sure i don't know what that is if any of it burns it turns into like

rock hard like grape nut level so hard tooth breakers yeah break a tooth break a molar jesus you gotta like knock all the excess shake and bake off and it burns to fucking holy hell black i haven't had shake and bake in a long time it Yeah, it's been a minute. It's been a while. Thank God. When my mom got a raise, we stopped eating it. I was going to say, yeah, I've been poor enough to eat shake and bake recently, but I still avoided it just because, yeah,

shake and bake is when things aren't going well, though. When things are going good, no one goes, ooh, you know what happened tonight? Shake and bake. Yeah. No one ever says that when things are going really well in their life let's celebrate honey how are you gonna do that that's not broke people food think about i said what i ate when i was really really broke because you can't afford spices yeah and then

finally later on that's when i was young and really broke and then when i was broke more recently like it was a uh different story of i had figured out then of how to cook without the shake and bake because you can just put spices on it salt and pepper changes things it's better yeah depending on how much you put of either otherwise you're just putting you're letting shake and bake regulate your taste don't do that that's a bad life he calls this guy at 9 30 a.m to talk about going over to christopher's house to smoke some weed so i mean.30 a.m. to talk about going over to Christopher's house to smoke some weed. So, I mean, 9.30 a.m., that's ambitious. And for Christopher, he's up, too.

Leatherman hates reality. Man, up and at him. Weed heads here. This is wild. So, around 10.45 a.m., Leatherman begins walking over to Chris Moore's house. We don't call him Leatherman. No, he's Leatherman. The Leatherman, Jonathan Leather Man begins walking over to Chris Moore's house. We don't call him Leather Man. No, he's Leather Man. The Leather Man, Jonathan Leather Man, he goes over to Moore's house.

I almost said Jay Moore's house. He goes over to Christopher E. Moore's house. He goes over to Jay Moore's house, and a little tiny dog answers the door. And a dog answers the door, and Jay Moore has no idea that you're supposed to be on his show. He thinks he's supposed to be on yours. And it says, come in. We ordered pizza for me and my son. Yeah. Who's too tiny to be around an interview with us.

Want to hang out? We were like, we'll go get some food. Put that one to bed. That's a long, we did a long time ago. And we were on Jay Moore's podcast and we podcast with the company we were with, sent us to his house. And he was like, Hey, how are you? He thought we were supposed to be, he was supposed to be on our show.. How are you? He thought we were supposed to be,

he was supposed to be on our show. And we're like, no. And he thought we were supposed to be there three hours later. Yeah, we're like, no. We're driving back to Phoenix right now. Yeah, we're here to finish. This is the last show of four that we had to do today.

So can we get it over with? Nope. Nah, come back later. There's a little restaurant down the road. Go get yourself a pizza. Alrighty then. That's the talk. Have a good one. Thanks, Jack.

Thanks a lot. Weird. What a weird encounter. Unbelievable man. He's a sweetheart. He's a character. He was nice to us. He was on.

He was on something. I'll say that much. He was on. He was definitely on something, Jimmy. So I guarantee you that. Fucking guarantee you he was on something. So he goes over. He lives in the neighborhood.

He arrives in three minutes walking. So, I mean, that's around the fucking corner. Jesus Christ. Unless he ran there at full speed, which I doubt. No one wants to smoke weed that bad. That's one thing. One thing us weed smokers don't do is run somewhere to smoke weed. Yeah.

We'll get there. So he gets to Moore's house. He enters the house. I guess they live three minutes away and hang out all the time. I guess they go in and out of each other's house. He enters the house, goes upstairs to Chris's room, which he does. Chris lives with his parents. He's 18.

Everybody here lives with their parents. Of course. So, yeah, this is his room in his parents he's 18 everybody here everybody here lives with their parents of course so yeah this is you know his room in his parents house uh he opens up the door to chris's room and finds chris on the floor oh uh not a minute ago i was talking to you yeah an hour ago we were on the phone yeah let's smoke some weed now he shows up and he's on the floor he's unresponsive the the room's kind of a mess and he calls the calls 911 to report a suicide. He says that it looks like Chris killed himself. Shit.

This is fucked up. You know, he's freaking out. He then goes back to Chris's room for what he says is to grab a quarter pound of weed that Chris has there. Chris had a QP Chris probably sells eights and

fucking dimes and shit so chris has a qp sitting there the police find this they're gonna take it yeah not let it go to waste yes so he went in there and he said he did it but he told the police he did it to quote to save more from trouble yeah he's dead we don't want to besmirch his good name now that he's dead i'll just take the weed off his hands i'll burn it in the field ceremonially i don't know if you guys read the reviews there's a lot of hard opinions here and i didn't want to besmirch his good name now that he's dead. I'll just take the weed off his hands. I'll burn it in the field ceremonially. I don't know if you guys read the reviews. There's a lot of hard opinions here, and I didn't want them to be about Clifford and Chris. It's a lot, so I don't know what to do here. Anyway, I don't want anybody to find out that or that he ate Shake and Bake.

Those are two things. I took the Shake and Bake and the Wake and Bake. And the Wake and Bake. So, yeah, he does that. But he says, at the end, he said he couldn't find it, though. Because they said, why'd you go back into the room? And he said, I went back to get the weed. He goes, but I couldn't find the weed.

So he ended up just waiting outside for the cops with nothing. Maybe you guys could bring a dog for me. That's the other problem. Yeah. Where's he going to put the weed? Right. What's he going to sit out there with a QP? It's big. A QP of weed, especially dirt problem. Yeah. Where is he going to put the weed? Right. What's he going to sit out there with a QP? It's big.

A QP, a weed, especially dirt weed. Yeah. It's dry leaves. Yeah. It takes a lot to get to that weight. Even if it was the brick. Yeah. I've bought the QP bricks in the Bronx back in the day.

It's still like a big book. It's a lot. It's the size of a good-sized book. So you can't be- Dry leaves, it takes a lot to get to a pound yeah and a quarter of that is a lot i mean and it is january so he's probably got a park on so he could probably get it under that it's puffy but still it's i don't know if you want to hang out with a bunch of cops with with a book in your shirt with a book in your shirt yeah it's it's uncomfortable i got in a

car accident when i was 18 yeah i got T-boned by a lady. Completely not my fault. She just completely T-boned me in Fishkill, New York, actually, the village of Fishkill. And fucked my, I mean, knocked me like, I did a 180 in my truck. She hit me so fucking hard. Right, that's the Nissan. The Nissan, yeah. Did all of that.

And when I, I had like two ounces of weed in each jacket pocket. I had a quarter pound on me, same as a, two weed in each jacket pocket. I had a quarter pound on me. Same as two ounces in each jacket pocket. And I'm every cop in the fucking town is here. The fire department, we're all here. And I'm just like, yup.

I had to fucking sweat through all of that shit. Cause that was, you know, back when weed was illegal everywhere. Super illegal. Yeah. 1996 or so. This was very seriously.

Yeah. So it was, that was uncomfortable. So I see where he's coming from. Maybe it wouldn't have been a good idea to throw it in the bushes for later So anyway, uh, gary helm he works for the grafton Uh rescue squad and he also works for the grafton street department So yeah at around 10 55 to 11 a.m. He was picking up garbage as part of his job Okay, he goes around that's the street

department they go around pick up garbage and shit and uh he receives a notification that there's an attempted suicide nearby so he responds to it first because he's part of the rescue squad here so he travels to the address he meets a police officer outside and uh he says quote this is what he says what happened when he got there uh quote a fella in the front of the house was yelling help him please help him i don't believe he finally did it oh boy so yeah somebody he's going come on get the fuck in here help him out help your friend as anybody would do i guess if their friend thought your friend off themselves in there standing around yeah let's go let's make with the you know compressions and whatever the hell you guys do.

Clear and do the thing. Who knows if it's too late? I don't know. Do the thing with the pow, and then they come back to do that. Make it work. Give it a run. Give it a whirl. You know what I'm saying?

Do something. Make it look good anyway. Do it for my benefit. How's that? I don't even care if he's no chance. Just do it for my benefit. I don't care if his heart's cut out of his body and thrown over a corner. What if you're wrong and I'm right? let's just try so uh according to helm here they went inside he and the officer went inside went up to moore's room and could not find

a pulse so they they confirmed that he actually is dead here so the deputy county coroner here uh ruth heiser she says she went over there she's dispatched at 1205 she gets there and pronounces him dead officially at 1205 p.m he's obviously been dead longer but that's when she gets there i don't know the coroner probably doesn't rush there no because it's like they're not going to be dead when i get there like they'll still be dead it's not a rush now yeah i mean they have to have them there so then the homicide unit can the crime scene people can shit sometimes those people sit there for hours yeah they have to like on the side of the road you know what i mean yeah it's oh yeah so terrible it's we were watching again the first 48 there was an episode where they did this crime scene there was a body in like kind

of an abandoned e kind of crackish house yeah and they found this woman's body and it was just not a good scene at all horrible things have been done to her it's been there a minute and it's just a couple of days but it's still horrible things have been done it was really bad she tied up and all this crazy shit Christ and on the door it said like

bitch I'm done in like red letters like big sloppy like someone took a fucking like a lipstick in their palm not even like they wrote it's like like a two-year-old that learned the color took the took the lipstick out of the tube mashed it between their fingers and then did it yeah it was on the closet all this shit so they do the whole crime scene hours you know it's inside they're doing all this shit and it's like a crack house so people have been in here they have to go through everything hours and hours and finally they're like all right let's get out of here and

they call the guy like yeah we'll be back in the office about a half hour wrapping it up right now and then they're like hey did anybody look in that closet and they're like no i don't think so and he goes maybe check and he goes to open it's nailed shut and he's like no one opens fucking nailed shut so he pulls a nail out and opens it and there's another body oh my god and it's been there for months we've got to be here for so long they're like oh shit another ship oh fuck but like that's how bad of a scene it was is that they didn't even see that like that was why that has nothing to do with this but it's an interesting murder talk and they sat there for hours investigating the first one yeah now they've got to sit there for hours investigating the second one and you can't move the other one in relation to this one because you've got an investigation

to do the whole things yeah they had so much things to do basically seen back to one and you know do the whole scene of the closet tell the corner to go back home because we got to do this one now yeah it's a lot and we'll call you to pick both of them up and then come on back oh boy so uh daniel pack uh pack of palkov, he is the Grafton Police Department. He's an officer here. He was dispatched here as well. He was the one who went up with Helm to the room to initially do that. Now, like we said, the leather man is saying it's a suicide.

He finally did it and all that sort of thing. So that's what they're looking at initially. But then they look a little closer. Here is the list of things from areas nearby or from, uh, Christopher Moore's body at the autopsy. This is his, this is his, this is the scene. This is the, yeah. A few feet around him, little universe of his death here. These are all the things.

It's a long list, but it's, it's interesting when you start to stack them up here. Uh, here we go. Uh, a jacket found in his room, which appeared to have blood on it. Yeah. That seems like evidence. A torn shirt removed from him, which had blood on it. Yeah. Which is odd.

You normally don't tear your shirt when you kill yourself. He don't beat the shit out of himself. Yeah, that's generally a sign of a struggle, a torn shirt. Jeans removed from him, which had blood on them that he was wearing. Not jeans like that were in the corner. It wasn't like nude when they found him. Socks that they took off of him which had blood on them that he was wearing. Not jeans like that were in the corner. He wasn't nude when they found him. Socks that they took off of him that had blood on them. Underwear they took off of him, which had blood on them.

A hat found in his room that had blood on it. A pair of gloves found in the room. A yellow towel taken from the hallway directly outside his room, which also had blood on it. Which is outside, so I don't know how he would get it out there if he killed himself and whipped it out yeah uh perhaps the packers were playing and he was spinning it i think he was twirling it when it happened that's probably well i think that's what people do anyway just walking around they practice for sunday they're just twirling their packer towel a cheese head found nearby with blood on it. He let's see samples of his head and pubic hair. They took also hair that had been, quote, clenched in Moore's left hand.

Oh, again, you usually don't rip your hair out as you're killing yourself. Hair located between the fingers of Moore's right hand, which was closed but not fully clenched. So, you know, just kind of whatever hair stuck to moore's chin and neck by dried blood so there's hair there loose hair taken from moore's mouth area which appeared to be stuck there by a combination of dried blood and possibly saliva uh hair at least uh hair at least apparently stuck to moore's pants by dried hair, quote, a possible seed of some type, I don't know, and some glass fragments stuck to Moore's skin and shirt

and his upper chest area. That seed of some type, I think we know what that is. Sure. I think it's weed. Is it a little dark? It's a weed seed because here comes more here. Glass fragments. The top or main portion of a bong pipe oh we're talking a big

glass bong he's got here that uh is broken that's found in the room which appeared to have been shattered or broken on one end and appeared to have blood on its tube so that's what they say the base portion of the bong pipe this is i'm talking from cart documents that's why i'm saying bong pipe because i think it's funny the state of wisconsin calls it a bong pipe. I'm talking from cart documents. That's why I'm saying bong pipe because I think it's funny. The state of Wisconsin calls it a bong pipe. That's redundant as fuck. Yeah, it's a bong or a pipe. Pick one.

You say water pipe or bong. Yeah, there's a bowl in there, but that's not a pipe. It's a bong. It's a different thing. The base portion found there. The bowl portion of the bong pipe, which was found in Moore's room,

which also had blood on it. It's got blood on his bowl, man. Damn it. Damn it. That's rough. It's rugged. Blood's on everything. Fuck around all you want,

but don't get blood on my weed. Right. Get out of here. Did he die of a gunshot wound, James? There's a lot of blood. Fragments of maroon plexiglass material, similar to the top portion of the bong pipe, found scattered about Moore's room in roughly the immediate area of Moore's body itself, which all had blood on them as well. Pieces of the maroon plexiglass portion of the bong pipe and a metallic type rod, which was found to be located on the floor under Moore after his body was moved.

That metal rod is the stem. The stem that you put the bowl into. There you go. So these are bong pieces. Yeah, you go. So these are bong pieces. Yeah, they are. This is all bong pieces. A rubber-type grommet used with the bong pipe, which is what holds the bowl in and your stem and everything. There you go.

Water seal, air seal. That's the one just inside of the doorway leading to Moore's room. It's fascinating. They have to do this report like they've never smoked weed. No, absolutely. They're like, you know that bowl? You know the thing that keeps the... Yeah, they can't say that. They have to be... A grommet. A rubber type of grommet.

Get the fuck out of here. A metal little tube rod thing? Yeah. Nope. That's not it. A metallic type of rod. Yeah. The stem from the bong. So basically a bong got broken here bong exploded somehow yeah shattered everywhere um a glass drinking container otherwise known as a

fucking glass or a cup a drinking glass container is not needed in that one it's really not it's overkill wow yeah like a lot of this is which was found on the floor next to an ice cube and had blood on it. The ice cube or the glass? Probably the glass. The ice cube would have melted. The ice cube's still frozen. It's still frozen. I can't clue how fast this happened.

Well, shit. I mean, they talked to him, and then an hour later, there he is. And it also had, quote, a small amount of orange liquid at the bottom of the glass. In the morning? What a mystery. What could this have been? This guy drinks ice in his orange juice. Is it orange juice or Sunny Delight?

You might want to water down the Sunny D a little bit because that could be strong sometimes back in the day. So ice cubes, by the time of trial, water, it says. They collected the ice cubes as evidence. Hold on. By the time of trial. Later on. Yeah, that's because it's from court documents. In four weeks, it didn't stay frozen? It's weird, right? By the time of trial later on yeah that's because it's from court documents in four weeks it didn't stay frozen it's weird right by the time of trial water that's in parentheses

i swear to god it's in parentheses in the court documents like we expected them to be fully past these ice cubes among the jury here they won't they're gonna your honor i call into question exhibit a it's water it's a. It's a Ziploc bag of water. How do you, what is that going to find out? A mistrial. This is water, clearly. It's not ice. Prosecution failed to preserve evidence.

This is ridiculous. It's a little red tinge. I think there might be blood in it. It's possible. This is the ice cubes collected from various areas of the room and observed around 1130 a.m. So they said that's why they were melted by then. A phone directory found in the hallway on the second floor of Moore's house with a, quote, footwear impression on the cover.

So this is big. This is how they connected all of the Night Stalkers crimes. So that's a big deal, which appeared to be caused in at least part by blood. So it's a bloody footprint. That's not good. No, that's a big deal which appeared to be caused in at least uh at least part by blood so it's a bloody footprint that's not good no that's a that's our guy that's a good clue right there especially you compare them to chris's shoes is that chris's shoe well then we got a problem sure if it's not so uh they did say that the shoe bottom pattern imprinted on the phone book was a common one so it wasn't anything like there's one avia in the whole fucking city of los angeles or anything it's a very common state of california of california there's one of these of that size that's not what happened here one shoe in this most populous state

in the country second right second at the time probably second now the most fascinating so interesting uh also a yellow stool which was taken from a room of Moore's house, different from the room that Moore was found in, but it appeared to have blood on it. Okay, so they can say stool and not be specific that it is a footstool? A small sitting or foot resting stool. It's the least specific they've been in this whole- Stool is a scientific term, for Christ's sake. A yellow stool.

What the hell was he eating? Jesus Christ. It was blood in it? It was all the cheese. That's what happened. It just came out. It's not even shit anymore. It didn't even come out poop.

It just came out a block of cheese. He just shit out a chunk of cheddar. That's all there is to it. That's a hunk of cheese. Anchor it. A hunk of cheese. Not anymore it. A hunk of cheese. Not anymore. It's got blood on it.

Just a bloody cheese turd came out here. Yeah. A small, this is funny, a small water faucet type screen, which is a screen you put in the bowl with the bong. That's how you keep your weed dry. Yeah. So you don't suck through the weed before it's totally done. Stuck to Moore's shirt and dried by the blood.

Similar to other screens found in Moore's room. Those things, you lose them all the time, too. So they're probably probably drop them. And he's a stoner. He doesn't care. Several screens, safety pins and some screws and thumbtacks, which, quote, gave the appearance. They were attached to the back of Christopher's neck and head area by the hair itself and by blood, which had coagulated. So there was shit on the floor that stuck to his head because the blood made it stick to his head. Basically, screws all over the floor, things and shit and screws punching the mic over here.

I'm a mess. So, yeah, that's weird. Certain fragments or pieces of the plexiglass portion of the bong pipe found on the floor along his body. Scissors were found in his room. A red disposable lighter found under his right shoulder, which appeared to have blood on it. And blood samples removed from an overturned metal lawn chair found in his room. That's what he used to hang out in, a metal lawn chair in his room. We're seeing this room. You know what I mean?

We're seeing this 82 teenager. Pothead. He listens to music on big headphones. Yes. Big, big headphones. I can see it now. While laying in bed. Yeah, smoking.

Jerking off. Yeah. It's a very specific guy. And it's, you know what? Good for him. Understandable. Good for him. Yeah, good for him.

You know what, Chris? You had a life. I'm sorry it ended so early at 18 but you were doing what you loved um yeah jerking it pooping cheese and eating you know and smoking weed good for you awesome yeah good for you so um but i'm that's obviously the kid 18 year old kid that's brutal very sad that they think he killed himself yeah then they go to an autopsy so crazy to beat yourself to death with your own bong that's wild and other things because once they get the autopsy and they realize that he does have bruises

on his head which is inconsistent with a suicide most people don't beat themselves about the head to death no you see very few cases of blunt force trauma suicide very very i mean and all the times i've i've never heard of it once so i'm sure it's possible but i haven't really heard it very often i'll bet it's really tough to get enough momentum in the swing to hit yourself in the head hard enough to to you have to end it well you have to do it on the first shot otherwise you'd knock yourself out well then your times of hitting yourself are over at that point or if you're woozy you're not going to be able to do it as well and then you're going to fall down it's not going to work you almost have to get into a catapult and Super Dave Osborne yourself into a brick wall.

Right, a giant slingshot. It's the only way. It's the only way. But the autopsy also reveals something else that's even more telling. Yeah. 57 stab wounds. Oh, my. 57 stab wounds.

That's why there's a lot of blood. That is a shitload of stab wounds. Oh, my. 57 stab wounds. That's why there's a lot of blood. That is a shitload of stab wounds. How did he not see that that was? Wow. Well, his friend just walked in, saw blood, saw him on the floor, ran out, called the thing. Then he went out looking for weed. I guess he wasn't looking for the body when he was looking for the weed. Yeah.

And then, I don't know, he's not an expert. I don't know what the hell's going on. But then once somebody who knows what they're doing looks at him, they go, wow, he's got holes everywhere. If he drank a glass of water, it would come out like a fountain. Right. Like a cartoon character. Yeah, like a watering can. 57 stab wounds.

You walk in on that. There's no way you're telling anybody, give him help. You're just saying, well, I guess we bury him. Jesus, yeah. All the blood's out it's got to be out he just calls mom at that point and go um you can't you can't expect anybody to live with that kind of blood that's out i know good god 57 stab wounds and his throat was like uh pretty much slashed as well so i mean he had quite the time bruising and and all of that uh dr helen young

performed the autopsy and discussed the nature of the wounds and said that the death was caused by a massive hemorrhage due to multiple incised wounds. So, shitload of stab wounds is based in layman's terms. Got stabbed a shitload of times and died. Described over 50 stab wounds, 57 to be

exact, and opined that at least some of these wounds were caused by a knife. One wound in particular was a good-sized gaping wound in moore's in his back directly over the area where the heart would be reflected oh fuck uh requiring at least two to three gashes so it was like a multiple same spot over and over got stabbed his heart however was intact within his body so somehow 57 stab wounds missed his heart but they didn't miss his throat because he she describes a large gaping wound on his throat he had two wounds in his stomach made by one stab wound so it must have been how he was positioned which more would have sustained early in the series of wounds that were received so the

stomach was kind of early and then there was all sorts of everything else, and they think the throat obviously ended it. Also discussed injuries to the head caused by blunt trauma and agreed at least a portion of the bong pipe could have produced these injuries. Really? They're looking at, yeah. They said basically anything in the room could do that, and then she said, well, the bong could do that, the broken bong.

So they're looking around they're looking for anybody who talked to chris anybody who knows chris yeah you know all that sort of shit um so later that day leather man yeah a shaken up leather man yeah um yeah first of all leather man shaked and unbaked shaked and he's not out of the woods in my opinion as far as like the investigation goes you talk to him you came over you foraged for weed after you found him dead and you're the only person fucking here so until we find out that you definitely didn't do this i'm worried about you right now i don't i'm sure that leather man's never seen a dead body but certainly an overreaction with the police around.

I suppose so. I'd have some questions. Yeah, Leatherman, we don't know. He's an 18-year-old kid, too. We don't know how mature he is. That's a good point, too. That's the other thing. We're dealing with young people.

And at 18, someone might have the mentality of a 25-year-old or a 14-year-old. You have no idea. So we don't know. But Leatherman receives a call. A call from a friend of his here, a call from a man named Kent Denny. OK, now Kent is 20 years old and his brother, Jeffrey. They hang out together. They know the whole group.

So the Denny boys. Yeah. Enter the Denny boys. Sure. So he receives a call from Kent Denny. the denny boys sure so he receives a call from kent denny and uh basically he uh he said that he had last spoken to kent uh maybe a week ago before that so they talk often but not every day and kent asked uh leather man if leather man knew uh do i hear i see saying it's you can just hear him say it's in my head anything with a a man, I just hear Leather Man.

He said it every fucking time he started a sentence, because the whole thing was about this detective investigating the case, whether he talked to a witness or went out to a spot. Incredible. Leather Man brings the witness into the interrogation room. It's amazing. I love it. I wonder if they have to like on svu they're like cut say zimmerman say zimmerman say it just say it zimmerman ice i need you

listen okay no i got it hold up go zimmerman god damn it is shit dick wolf's losing his mind oh that's hilarious fucking iced fucking iced tea is hilarious too he really is so uh yeah anyway he did a good job narrating too he made he did like a everything was very dramatic i was impressed anytime he talks i listen that's what i mean like what's happening now what did zimmerman do now i interested. But it's impossible not to laugh when he says shit like that. It is. So apparently Kent asked Leatherman if he, quote, knew where to get any pot. We're looking for some pot, me and my brother.

And after Leatherman said he didn't, Kent said, what about Chris Moore? He has weed sometimes. Does he have any weed? You hang out with him. You live two minutes away. What's up with that? So Leatherman said Moore killed himself. This is before the autopsy.

This is basically he hung around. The cops took the body away and everything or ambulance or whatever. And then he went home and he's hanging out and then he gets a call. What does Chris Moore have any weed? And he's like, well, no, because he killed himself. That's not his like first thing when they call. Like, hey, how are you? Brutal, dude today dude you know chris how's that not the first thing that you talk about at 18 i i would have been yeah i would have been like on the phone right away like you know chris holy shit telling everybody this is crazy or this guy calls and he

goes hello and he goes you know where to find weed? Actually, I don't. I don't. What about your friend Chris? Oh. Oh, that guy. Weird thing about him. This was this morning, for Christ's sake. I forgot. Oh, hold up.

I forgot. Unbelievable. Oh, man. So, yeah, he told him he killed himself. Kent asked Leatherman if he wanted to stop over later that day, and Leatherman did. Stops at the Kent house or the Denny house. And over there at the Denny residence, Leatherman has a conversation with Kent and Jeffrey Denny about Leatherman's, you know, his day. Basically tells him all about finding the Chris and everything like that.

And he was like, whoa, this is this is fucking wild yeah um now it's pretty interesting because then we enter a another brother another denny brother oh boy uh this is trent denny yeah trent trent kent trent kit and jeffrey they ran out of and went with jeffrey for the youngest one trent and kent Oh, fuck. Brent, we can name them. Oh, shit, we forgot about Brent. How much it costs to change is $300. Jesus Christ, paying that to change his name. Your name's Jeffrey. We can call you Jeffrent.

Jeffrent. Call you Gent. That's your new name. Trent, Kent, and Gent. So Trent and Denny, he says that about two or three days after trent was released from the county jail yeah on february 21st 1982 this is the type of family where the brothers are yeah you know periodically in the county county jail it's just normal business here

for these guys uh we're really getting we're fleshing out a picture, are we not? Yeah. Of the whole area. Not the area, but of this group of people. Right. So, yeah, on this date, this is February 21st. He just got out of the county jail. He's been in there for a little while, so he wasn't around for this whole thing. He talks to Jeffrey, and Jeffrey says to Trent that, you know what happened while you were in jail? Kent killed that Christopher Moore. Oh? Yeah, you know our brother while you were in jail kent killed that christopher more

oh yeah you know our brother kent oh yeah christopher more guy yeah kent fucking kent killed him kent did it that's what jeffrey tells his brother okay jeffrey tells trent that kent killed jeffrey that kent killed christopher more that happened uh he says that on a separate occasion trent says he thinks it was the day after he talked to Kent. He talked to him then. Trent asked Kent. This is why you don't do it, parents. It's fucking confusing when your kids are shit bags.

One shit bag kid gets labeled with the shit the other shit bag kid did. Yeah. Trent's just out of jail kent is the one who allegedly killed him based on what jeffrey said then so he talks to kent trent talks to kent and says did you really do it and kent says yent no he says i can't help it. I'm sorry. It's a Dr. Seuss. It's ridiculous. It's Wisconsin Dr. Seuss. It's exactly what it is.

All the characters are drinking beer. It's the only difference. And Kent replied, yes, I did. He did. So that's what Trent says. Now, two or three days after that, Trent asked Jeffrey Denny if it was true. asked Jeffrey Denny if it was true, and Denny asked Trent why did Kent tell.

And then it's a weird thing. Why did he tell you he did it? Well, you already told me he did it. It's fucking weird. After Trent told Jeffrey that, quote, Kent told Trent he killed Moore, which is basically what it is, Denny looked atrent like he was mad so he was like you're not supposed to know that basically was the what trent gleaned from this

now uh trent offered his assistance to jeffrey he's like i can help you i'm your brother right you know i mean you're not an ant but i'm still your brother you're you know i mean if you were named brent i'd help you more i'll be. You're lucky we got the same last name. But we got the same last name. I'm going to help you out. Yeah. So Jeffrey Denny tells Trent that Jeffrey and Kent. It's exhausting.

This is really hard. Jeffrey and Kent had stabbed chris moore uh specifically jeffrey asked moore quote how he felt then stabbed moore once in the stomach then asked moore how he felt now yeah which is like how you feel in the stab in the stomach well how you feel now probably worse i would assume wow then he gave the knife to uh then he gave the knife to uh to kent uh to jeffrey after which jeffrey stabbed more too oh so that's how it works so there was a team effort here like oh you all stab him now i started well that's a revelation i started the orange anybody want to finish peeling it so christopher quote was coming after jeffrey while jeffrey was stabbing him is

what he was told and then quote kent hit more over the head with the bong that's what happened so he stabbed him once and then chris like came after him i probably tried to get the knife out of his hand and so then kent came from behind and whacked him with the fucking bong yeah and knocked him silly and then they stabbed the shit out of him more so that's the that's the story here so trent again asked kent if it was true and kent said yent it is yent yes yent yes yent it is um so maybe two or three weeks after trent spoke with jeffrey trent had a conversation with kent and jeffrey so they had a little trio here they told trent that quote we had to get rid of the clothes that's they were talking about it again that night kent trent

and brent all in a tent all in a tent made a vent said we're gonna give up murder for i was gonna say then they went out before lent so uh jesus christ they they went out with laurie jack jack a jack jock jock laurie jock yeah i was thinking uh jack a from 227 mary that would she that'd be a perfect addition to this group that would make them palatable you add jack a to any group and i'm interested i'm like okay this is gonna be better now yeah i like this yeah it's gonna be good i'm interested in this attitude on that one yeah oh man that was my that was italian grandma's one of her favorite shows really seven oh she loved sherman helmsley was his her favorite

thinks he's the funniest man mother ge George Jefferson, the funniest man alive. So she loved that. And then Marla Gibbs was Florence. So then when she had her own show, Mother 227, she loved it. We watched. She loved Amen. She watched that shit because it had Sherman Helmsley in it. Is that the same lady that was in Ladybugs? Was that her?

I don't remember Ladybugs at all. I think it's her. Marla Gibbs? I don't know. Marla, she's great, man. I don't know, to be honest. She's fantastic. I'm an asshole.

Mary in Florence, she's fantastic. I'm an asshole. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group.

Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan

and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment.

While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener.

Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st.

Bye bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. So, all right, we got enough. It doesn't matter because we have so many kents and ents and brents and everybody else here to deal with it really doesn't matter at all so um they told them they got rid of the clothes this night kent trent and laurie jaca farajaka yeah drove to a cemetery as trios do god that's who this is the yeah mullets in the breeze as the T-tops of their Trans Am are off, probably.

So they went to the cemetery. Heading down to Sleepy Hollow. Yeah. Five minutes later, I guess, five minutes later, Kent, I'm sorry, Jeffrey, oh, Kent got out of the car and went to the cemetery. Five minutes later, he returns. They drove to a cemetery. Kent got out, went into the cemetery i'll be right back i'm gonna grab something yeah in the cemetery at night sure yeah five minutes

later he returned carrying a paper bag and they drove away odd um i guess kent said uh quote said that something was blood on the there was something with blood on the clothes in there and asked Trent and Jackie if they could smell it. In the paper bag? Yeah, Trent and Jacques. Can you smell the blood through the bag? Yeah.

Can you smell it? Yeah. At some point, while in the car that night, Kent pulled a shirt out of the bag and Trent saw a stain on it. Yeah. That's what he says. Trent said he didn't know what was in the bag and just assumed it was the clothes because his brother said it was the clothes

and then he pulled out a shirt with a stain on it. Eventually they drove to Laurie Jacques' house and Jacques retrieved a plastic bag for him and Kent put the paper bag into the plastic bag and then they drove to a dump in either Port or Freedonia.

Freedonia? That sounds like a made up place. Is it two E's on it? It's Freed, no. It's one E, but it doesn't matter. It's Fredonia. Yeah, but I'm moving to Freedonia. I do what I want.

Over in Freedonia. You're not going to believe this, James. There's one in northern Arizona. That sounds just right. I don't know if it's northern Arizona or southern Utah. It's right on the border. Of course it is. I think it's Kanab on the north side and yeah and you can marry a 14 year old and her sister probably is what those those border towns of utah yeah as we know

freedonia for free to marry a sophomore and her younger sister on the same day jesus christ wow uh so then they drove to a dump there and kent quote shot the bag into the dump i On the same day. Jesus Christ. Wow. So then they drove to a dump there, and Kent, quote, shot the bag into the dump. I think he threw it. That's just their slang. It was weird Wisconsin early 80s slang. Shot it over the edge. He shot it right on over the edge.

On another date, so this is just adding up here. On another date, behind Trent's house, Jeffrey Denny showedny showed trent what jeffrey says was a knife yeah uh trent saw the handle but not the blade and then finally a separate time trent asked kent and and jeffrey together if they did it and they told trent that yes they did i think they've established that they they say they did it and they seem to know a lot about it and have a lot of evidence regarding it so uh laurie jacques she she says that on February 20th, 1982, while at a party, quote, in the Denny room, which is Kent's bedroom. She called it the Denny room. Gross. Sounds like they serve shitty food.

Sticky tables and slams. Absolutely. Drunks. Kent, quote, looked very upset and told Laurie Jacques that he had killed Christopher Moore. Later that night, Kent indicated to Laurie that he, quote, wanted to go get the clothing back from the graveyard. And that's when they went to the cemetery and got the clothing. About a week after that, Kent again spoke to Laurie Jacques about the clothing. Why does he keep talking about this a couple weeks after the initial conversation according to laurie jackie jackie jock trent and kent drove to a

graveyard kent came back with the with uh quote a bundle of clothes in his arms back in the car held up a shirt all of that shit um she rich uh they got a this is when she oh wow this is uh she says that she got a paper bag. So there's bag discrepancies of what people say, but it doesn't matter. The material is, it doesn't matter. She said they went to the town dump in the town of Port and Kent placed the clothing in the bag. He exited the car, walked to the dump. Jacques and Trent drove down the road and turned around and came back and picked him up.

And that night she said that Kent told her that he was, quote, glad to get rid of the clothes, obviously. On another date here, Jacques was in a car with Kent and Jeffrey, and she heard Kent and Jeffrey have a conversation about how they, quote, forgot the tennis shoes. On another occasion, Kent said that he wanted to turn himself in because, quote, it was just getting to be too much. Kent was crying at the time, she said. So now he's just sobbing.

It's just too much, man. This is just a lot of evidence leaving behind here with a lot of people. On another date in Kent's room uh jeffrey quote said something about a scratch on his leg namely that that was where more had scratched him so yeah she said she didn't see any scratches but she wasn't right next to him so who knows if they were there or not and finally uh they asked her were there any other conversations you remember and she said quote well several times there was things said about it however she didn't remember any of the specifics other than those there but she said they pretty much

that's all they talked about right is how they need to like cover up and how they killed him and they feel kind of guilty and what is she doing on multiple occasions still hanging out with these people right after she helped them dispose of bloody clothes that's the end of our friendship yeah sorry don't take me on a on a evidence uh hiding mission if i have to help you bury evidence yeah that's the end of our association at that point i'm sorry if you keep it to yourself it's fine but if i have to help you we're done we're fucking done so this is wild uh now there's a woman named diane a young lady named diane hansen which sounds like a news anchor yeah d. Diane Hanson. Hi, Diane Hanson.

News 5. News 5 Dallas. Now, Diane Hanson, she says that about a week after Christopher Moore's death at the Sundance Tavern, Kent told her that he killed Moore. Why are you telling all these people this? They are some chatterbox. This is a bad murder. This is why you don't have teenagers in your hit squad, they just tell everybody shit uh that's a crime sports rule just making small talk sugar that yeah just what are you doing tonight no i mean i killed a guy last week but uh

you know i'm looking for just a real man can i tell you what i've done well she told he told her that and she was not impressed by this because she started crying. Really? Yeah, because she has feelings and is a human being and knows the guy. So she was like, that's fucked up. Yeah, they all know each other. It's a small town. So then he says, oh, no, I'm only kidding.

I was only kidding because she's crying in public and doesn't want anybody to come over and go, why are you crying? This guy fucking messing with you? He just told me he killed my friend. That's not going to go over well. Oh, I'm just kidding. So she said that he also said, quote, do you think I do something like that? Come on now. I don't know.

You just said it. I mean, Jesus, but you know me. I didn't even suspect. I had no clue. I mean, we weren't even talking about murder. Yeah, but I brought it up and still though i mean it was just i'm playing a character see you know what i mean like that larry the cable guy he real funny we're in a bar i thought anything says goes here you know what i mean it's all bullshit

it's all just bullshit trying to get laid you know what i mean nothing's nothing's true it's said in the bar guy down there said he makes 20 grand a month he did he's just trying to fuck that woman yeah that's right piano man told me about this guy wants to be a that guy told me he's in the war he's fucking 22 22 years old he said he beat hitler single-handedly i don't believe him he said hitler didn't kill himself he killed him i'm like bullshit so uh yeah the bars are though it's just a pissing match that's all stories made up stories drunk people who are trying to get laid all that there's too much everyone's one-upping for everything too much uh she said a couple weeks later that kent told her that they went that he went to chris's house and that christopher moore was quote standing by and stand in with an

apostrophe standing by the fish tank. And Kent stabbed Moore in the stomach and then left the room and got sick after he hit him with a bong and stabbed him. Fifty five, fifty six more times. Apparently, she said a long time after that, she asked Kent if there was any truth to the rumor that Christopher Moore's heart was cut out because that was the rumor that was going around was that his heart was cut out which was the only thing that was intact was his heart and his body so that is not true if you're a police investigator though you love that rumor because the person that uh oh the one person that knows that that was didn't happen is the guy that you're looking exactly yeah let it all get out there so and police obviously hold back in the investigation a lot of details that only the killer would know so they can know if somebody's for real.

But this is one. That's why rumors get started, too, because then, you know, and especially it's among a bunch of teenage stoners. They're all going to be. I heard his heart was cut out, man. And in bars, people are trying to. Yeah, they're trying to fuck. And they're like, that's what gets you some ass. Talk about dismemberment.

All the chicks come a-swoonin'. Dismemberment and gutting a human. Yeah, and if that doesn't work, tell her you poop pure cheese. That'll do it. Pure sharp cheddar comes out my butthole. You know that? The little hint of what? Oh, it's just a hint, though.

It's all right. You ain't gonna notice it. So, yeah, she said that, was there any truth to that? And Kent told her that, yes, there was. That, yeah, I said that. Was there any truth to that? And Kent told her that, yes, there was. Yeah, I think that's what happened. She said that in response to the question of whether Kent had at any time told her that he saw anyone walking up the street as he got out of Moore's house. Kent said he thought he saw Leatherman. house kent said he thought he saw leather man so basically from what she's saying he said basically they missed leather man by a fucking minute basically he was coming up the street and they

were taken off uh specifically quote on a road behind a garbage truck is what she said so now enter laurie ann jaster commons hell yeah that's a lot of names. We're going to call her Laurieann because there's another Laurie as well. God damn it. That member Jacques is Laurie. And her brother Corey. Laurie, Corey, Trent, Brenton, and Kent are all going to go out on a triple double date. I don't know. She says that while at a party at Kent's house the night before Trent got out of jail.

So this is the 20th that where the other girl was there too she said she heard Kent say he's just talking about this at parties Christopher was standing was at his fish tank and Kent went up to him and stabbed him and asked him how he felt and Moore replied that he

felt all right and that he proceeded to stab him one more time and then he had to get sick and run into the bathroom and then jeffrey took over the stabbing and then when he came back from getting sick that's when he hit him with the bong and then they proceeded to stab the shit out of him anymore or more he said at that point jeffrey quote just stabbed him and um yeah in his side is what she said what he said they also discussed a conversation that she heard that occurred or that occurred approximately three weeks after the murder where uh about she heard the diane hansen thing diane hansen had told her about it right away so it wasn't like she came up with that later

she said quote and hansen was crying and i went uh i went up to her to see what was wrong and kent was talking to her and said that he had to do it otherwise it would have been him so that's what she heard as she came up to it and then she was like oh no he said he's only kidding uh Robin Doyle here's another person to add she said she asked Kent quote how out of curiosity uh if he killed Moore uh how you know did you do it uh curiosity out of curiosity did you kill him I mean you're talking about it. So elaborate. And Kent said, yep, I did. Yeah.

And Kent also told Robin Doyle that he, quote, had told everybody that he had told everybody that he ever told something different so that the stories wouldn't match up. I don't want nobody to, you know, all the stories. It'll sound like it's just crazy if it's all different stories. But if you take a little from each one, they're all true. Then all of a sudden you get the whole picture. How about just don't tell anyone you killed someone after you kill them? Stop laying a Da Vinci code of murder story out there.

And they're going to weave it together like a web. Now, Kent's coworker, Carl Winker, he said that at the end of April 1982, so this is a couple months later, three months later, Kent told him that he, quote, knew the guy who killed a boy in Grafton is what he said. Kent told Winker that the guy started stabbing him and he just kept doing it and that the guy liked it and got into it and that the guy's heart was cut out. He also told Winker that the killing was for drug money. And then he said sometime later how much an 18 year old kid selling a quarter pound of weed how much fucking money does he have 200 dollars in his fucking house sometime later uh kent told winker that he would not be coming to

work anymore when he asked why kent told him it was because he's going to be going to jail at some point and when asked why he was going to jail, he said, quote, because of that guy that got killed. So he's it wasn't even he's just like, they're going to catch me. I'm going to go to jail. So I'm going to quit now. That way, you know, you can train somebody. I won't leave you shorthanded. Just trying to look out for your business.

Yeah. Winker asked Kent, why do you know something about it? And Kent replied, no, I'm the guy that did it. Oh, my. He tells his work. Jesus Christ. I know a guy. It's me. It's me. I stabbed him up good. i know a guy i know it's me i stabbed him up good i know a

guy's name ends with int on another occasion kent told winker that there was quote uh that the quote there was a coat and a knife in a dump in sheboygan and the coat was full of blood. That's what he said. And another guy, Stephen Hansen, he says that in early March 82, Jeffrey Denny told Steve that Denny and Kent had killed Moore. So we're talking a lot of people. Jeffrey told Steve that Denny and Kent went into Moore's bedroom and that Kent pulled out a knife and proceeded to stab Moore. He also testified that he remembered telling the officer that Denny told Steve H. the following, that Jeffrey told Steve the following, quote,

Moore was facing out the window when the Denny boys were in the bedroom, and Kent pulled out a knife and looked at Moore and looked at Jeffrey, and then Jeffrey nodded his head and Kent started stabbing Moore in the stomach. Wow. So what, the younger brother gives the okay for this? Yeah. The hell is that? He said Moore would not fall, but subsequently he did fall to the floor and Jeffrey Denny

kicked him. And then he said Jeffrey and Kent walked out of the house and they didn't think they saw them. They didn't think anyone saw them. Either Kent or Jeffrey told Steve that Kent and Jeffrey may have seen Leatherman as they were leaving. So one of them said that he doesn't know who Patricia Robran. Okay, Patricia Robran. She says that in March or April, she was in the basement of her parents house with Jeffrey Denny.

Jeffrey was crying. uh jeffrey was crying eventually jeffrey told uh patricia that uh quote that him and kent were the ones who killed that one boy in grafton and that him and kent stabbed him and they hit him with a bong and that there was no reason for it uh no reason for it and all's i got was a quarter pound of weed out of it all's i got all's i love how they say they they whenever they're standing or something they put the apostrophe alls i mean this is like exactly from the recordings fucking transcribed thank you for doing this court document person this is a fucking gem alls i got was a quarter pound of weed out of it it's like when you hear the interrogations uh it's fine i mean you understand what's happening and yeah you get you get an idea of what this person comes from but when you see the

subtitles come across the bottom of the screen you're like jesus yeah this is different this uh jeffrey denny also informed her patricia that kent stabbed more than at first and then he handed jeffrey the knife and kent told him to continue what he was doing until he got back because he was going to puke so he went puke he said you do this i got you do that for several minutes i'm gonna go puke i'm gonna go puke now uh he says uh so jeffrey did and he didn't remember if he did it five or ten or fifteen times well try 57 that's how many times it is. So the Patricia Robran,

is it Patricia? Yeah. Patricia Robran asked Jeffrey also said that Jeffrey told her before the stabbing occurred, quote, Kent had asked more how he was feeling and he said he was feeling fine. And then Kent stabbed him and asked him how he'd feel now and then just kept doing it. So that seems to be the thread that's going around here

kent asked him how he was doing and then stabbed him and he said he was fine for some reason i don't know why i'm fine i'm fine even though i got a stab wound todd schreierweiler let's introduce him they all have fascinating names it's amazing it's a lot of like yeah just like german yeah german iterations of things todd schreier todd try we'll call him todd todd says that in march of 82 he was at the denny house with rush schramm and tammy whittaker and kent and jeffrey uh now todd left with denny and left with jeffrey in a car and they stopped at a gas station in grafton jeffrey asked for and got the keys to Todd's car and put a brown paper bag rolled about halfway into

the trunk of the car. Don't be putting rolled up brown paper bags in my car. I'm Italian. I'm worried about that. I know I've seen brown paper bags and I know bad things go in there. Is that a gun? Is that your lunch? Or is that dog shit? One of the three. That's either my grandmother's lunch that she packed for me

when I was little because that would come in it, but it wouldn't be rolled halfway down well there'd be too much food to roll it halfway down or this is like you know ray liotta going to robert de niro's house with pistols to fit a silencer that's what's going on here so um yeah they drove uh apparently uh yeah they put it in the car and then they drove to the Sundance Tavern and went to his girlfriend Cindy Otto's house, where he told Otto, quote, about the keys there. So that was that. Later, Todd found a bag that looked like it was halfway down, and it was rolled up in his car, and he opened it. Inside were a pair of tennis shoes and a pair of brown loafers. So two pairs of shoes were in this bag that he put in there.

Todd wore the tennis shoes for about three months so he just found a random pair of shoes in a trunk from a guy who told you that he stabbed a guy a bunch of times and you're like i'm gonna wear shoes oh my um so as to the loafers he said quote my girlfriend's brother came up from texas with no pairs of shoes how do you fucking get there without shoes on? What's happening in Wisconsin with these fucking people? He came up here, started all over, needed a job interview shoe, so we gave him some loafers. He said he had no pairs of shoes.

Not a one. Not, he needed a non-sneaker. He walked from Texas to Wisconsin, no shoes. No, she came, popped off the Greyhound barefoot. Hi, y'all. With a fucking bindle on what with a handkerchief what are you tucked and rolled off the railroad with no shoes he's like you got a can of beans i could eat maybe i'll just eat them over an open fire if y'all could got a match

to spare what the fuck are we talking this isn't the depression this is 1982 hey welcome nice to see you happen to have a salisbury steak line around maybe a spare pair of shoes i'm a 10 and a half but i could squeeze into a nine and i'll wear anything up to a 14 i don't give a shit girls just think my dick's bigger it ain't no problem for me oh my god this is wild better i got these loafers that's it and he said quote i guess he took them eventually todd gave the tennis shoes to sergeant fred gets who was quote looking for the shoes yeah now todd stated on cross-examination later on that when he got the shoes uh he examined them he didn't see any

blood on him he looked at the shoes and he wasn't like oh these have blood on them i guess i'll wear them he just they looked fine so he wore them uh now sergeant gets here he testified later on that as to receiving the shoes he said that he followed the chain of whatever he said he agreed that todd had told him that he could not state for certain if these shoes were the ones that denny had placed in his trunk but they put the shoes into evidence anyway. This is while they were trying to build the case. The his auto girl. She says that she and Todd had a conversation about the keys that we talked about and that she and Todd discovered a brown grocery bag, which contained two pairs of shoes in the trunk of Todd's car. And the Todd wore the tennis shoes and her brother took the second pair of shoes, which she described as, quote, shoes tied like they have laces oh god not loafers ied yeah yeah suede tied she looks like a tide pod boat shoes yeah now uh she also discussed on an occasion which uh jeffrey asked todd quote if he could go back to look at todd's house or look in or at Todd's car.

And Todd refused at the time because he was late to drop Cindy off at home. So Otto said that she discussed how Todd came to give the tennis shoes to the detective there. Right. She, another one, Whitaker here, she testified later on that she was at a party in March 82 with Kent Jeffrey tram Todd the whole group there at the Denny house at one point tram Todd and Whitaker went outside and tram quote

put the shoes in the bag I should say into the back seat of a car and told Whitaker quote those were the murder shoes those were the I'm gonna put on my my my murder shoes this is the first time we've had anybody talk about murder apparel like actual called it murder apparel yeah it is i'm to put on my, my, my, my, my murder shoes.

You can't help but groove. We've never had that. We've called the things that. Murder pants. No one else has. What kinds of murder stuff? Those are the murder shoes. It makes it sound like the shoes came to life and murdered a person.

They just crept along in like a 50s horror movie and then like beat him to death with the heel over them. Or what a comedian calls the shoes when he goes out to do his A material. Yeah. These are going to be my murder shoes right here. I'm going to go murder tonight. Those were the murder shoes. Jesus Christ. Oh, God.

The fucking murder shoes. Unbelievable. That's too much. Christ. Oh, God. The fucking murder. Unbelievable. Too much. So Jeffrey then exited the house and went into and the four went into a gas station at the gas station.

Shram and Jeffrey put the bag in the trunk and she described the bag as a rolled pound brown paper bag. So this is all established. She also explains that she was Jeffrey Denny's girlfriend of about eight months. Yeah. So she knows him well and said two accounts. And she said that she heard two accounts of Moore's murder that Jeffrey had related to her, though she said that her account was a rough estimate of what she remembered. She said first, Jeffrey told her, quote, that Leatherman and Jeffrey went over to Moore's house and that Leatherman got in a fight with Moore and started stabbing him. And then Leatherman asked Jeffrey to help. And so and so

Denny hit him. He said Jeffrey hit him. And then another story was that Jeffrey told her that, quote, that him and Kent went over to Moore's house and when they were and they went up there and then, then quote Kent started stabbing him. And then Jeffrey went into the bathroom, looked in the mirror and said, God, what I get myself into. I'm wearing murder shoes. I'm a wearing murder shoes. By the way, who kills in suede dress shoes? That's not a good killing shoe. It sounds as though I want grip if I'm going to be murdered. The murder sure isn't wasn't planned, right? I mean, I don't know. They brought a fucking knife over there.

I mean, you don't bring a kitchen knife to your friend's house to murder him. You get a murder in your shoes. That's one way for somebody to never think you're about to murder them. He's wearing two nice shoes. Yeah, those are some nice shoes. You don't want to get blood on those. And now Jeffrey also told her that, quote, they got a quarter pound of pot out of the murder, quote unquote. Schramm, he says that the party, this party that occurred in March of 82.

There's tons of parties over here at the Denny house. Man, where are these fucking assholes parents? That's what I'd like to know. Stop letting people come over here talking about your murders. You fucking idiots. Jesus Christ. This is Schramm, Todd Whitaker kent jeffrey they're all there shram said we're gonna leave and denny took a bag out of the closet and took it with us jeffrey did

shram described the bag as a brown paper bag denny put the bag in the back seat of the car at some time before jeffrey placed the bag in the car he told shram that this bag oh my god got the murder shoes he turned he said and that's in quotes quote murder shoes he looked to him bag murder shoes in here buddy why stop telling people what in the holy fucking balls is wrong with you. Fucking stop telling everybody. That's so much. Good God. He then said, Schramm, that although he did not exactly remember who brought the shoes out of the car, he's pretty sure it was Jeffrey.

Schramm also said that at least one of the others drove to the gas station where Denny asked Todd for the keys to the trunk, put the bag in there, blah, blah, blah. The bag was, quote, rolled up so you could carry it with a handle like yeah with a handle like they eventually dropped jeffrey off at the bar and afterwards denny contacted jeffrey contacted shram quote a couple of time a couple of times saying to get it out of the car and uh shram told jeffrey that quote he knew where todd lived and he could get it from him anytime but he didn't because then the shoeless Texas guy wore the suede shoes and fucking Todd decided to wear sneakers around. On another occasion, Jesus Christ,

Schramm, Kent, Jeffrey, Whitaker, and Jacques are all together in Grafton. Denny told Schramm, quote, you'd be surprised how long it took a person to die. Jesus fucking Christ. Another time between March and April,ny told Schramm, quote, you'd be surprised how long it took a person to die. Yeah. Jesus fucking Christ. Another time between March and April, according to Schramm, Jeffrey was, quote, mad at Trent and said that he'd take him out and put an arrow through him because Trent was saying something about telling on them.

An arrow. So he's going to kill his older brother with an arrow in a field because a hunt him like a deer because he's going to tell on him accidentally shooting i guess i mean you know we've all seen drop dead gorgeous they talk about hunting season i know that's minnesota but i mean you know same woods it's all the same woods same trees a lot of a lot of hunting accidents up there so uh you know this is this is an interesting deal here. So, yeah, that ends up happening. So, finally, this happens over months. I was, I'm just.

How many people does it take? Right. They are talking about it everywhere. How do the cops not hear this in a town of 11,000 people? They know about this. They're asking everybody. They're trying to collect evidence. I don't know what they're, I guess they have to have enough to know they're going to get them.

evidence. I don't know what they're I guess they have to have enough to know they're going to get them. So finally this happened remember in January June 25th 1982 a criminal complaints finally filed against both the Denny's in here charging them with a party

to the crime of first degree murder of Moore. It's not even like an exact charge yet here. They're just taking him in samples of their head and pubic hair were taken uh here at this point and uh introduced because i guess there's a lot of hair around that we talked about now the main witness we told you about all these different people that they told well the main witness that they're using here is Trent. Yeah. Trent's the one who turns them both in. Turned on them.

Trent becomes state witness with immunity as well. Trent was in jail, so we know he didn't do it. Yeah. But he helped them get rid of some shit and all that. So the accessory after the fact, that's how they got him to talk. So they give him immunity, and they end up charging Kent and Jeffrey both with first degree murder instead. So, yeah, they charge him there. Trent pleaded no contest at this point now because he tells on them.

But then also he apparently had threatened witnesses in this case right after this. So he's actually charged and pleads no contest to charges of threatening three potential witnesses and is placed on probation and ordered to serve 75 days in the county jail for this as well he found a way to go to jail without even killing anybody right that's wild good job in a murder trial right in the murder case he found a way to get himself involved that's insane that's that's that's the story of trent i believe mr getting out of the county jail all the time this is why you don't name your kid trent he even found a way to sidestep murder charges and still get thrown in for uh roundabout

shit you know here and there so fuck man the criminal complaint here alleges that trent uh he testified at a john doee hearing into the slaying. It was just like a hearing on the slaying that his brother Kent said he committed the slaying. And his brother Jeffrey said he was with Kent at the time of the death. Moore obviously was stabbed repeatedly. Now, in addition to everybody they've ever met, everybody in the town, everybody at the bar, everybody at every party they've ever met, their own brother. Now we're talking about Daniel Johanson, who's a fellow inmate at the county jail, who will then tell everybody that he says that Jeffrey told him about Moore's murder. He said that he told him, quote, Jeffrey and Kent went over to Moore's house.

And I'm not sure, but it was either that Moore owed Kent money or they were going to pick up some pot. And then Jeffrey went out of the room and that Chris and Kent were in there. And all of a sudden he heard, how does this feel? And he came back in the room and Kent had stabbed him in the stomach. Then he said that Kent just started stabbing him. And then he went into the bathroom and looked in the mirror because he couldn't believe it he said jeffrey at that point then hit more over the head with the bong and kicked him a couple times and he says that jeffrey says the shoes he he took him over to some sewage plant here in port or some sewage plant around here and he threw them in so he's got the exact

same story as all the friends so this sounds like what was told to him otherwise you wouldn't make up he wouldn't have known all that shit even the town of port he knew like you know that's that's a lot of details of course he's involved with the denny so you got to just take him on the denny's don't shut the fuck up no the denny's that's going to be their defense by the way really is that they just don't shut the fuck up their defenses yeah we're just bullshitters the defenses they told so many people couldn't possibly been true that's it no one

is that stupid basically their defense is like someone walked into a fucking police station covered in head-to-toe blood going I would I be stupid enough to walk into a police station after I just murdered somebody come on man no obviously not yeah well you are because you're here Would I be stupid enough to walk into a police station after I just murdered somebody? Come on, man. No, obviously not.

Yeah. Well, you are because you're here. Right. And you are because you did tell all those fucking people the same story. And they weren't that different, the stories they told. No. They're all pretty similar. Yeah.

It's one thing to tell stories. It's another thing to go, got to get rid of the murder shoes. Yeah. Why would you do that? When the words murder and shoes together keep coming up in the same story, it's pretty much you. It's an awful elaborate prank also to be like, I'm going to make this up. I'm going to go place a bag of clothes in the cemetery and then have them drive me there. So, okay, that way they'll believe. All right. That's a lot. It sounds like you're just a comedian working your act and throwing extra details in to try to make that story better.

That's all it is. That's it right there right there you gotta perfect it to get that big laugh yeah you know you gotta work it and work it hard sometimes you take out and and put in the you know it's a little thing sometimes it's just a single word sometimes you take out the fuck or sometimes you add one gotta trim the fat trim that get to the point trim that. So on September 1st, they're all in jail. Shram, the one friend, gets a call from Jeffrey from jail. Yeah. And Jeffrey tells Shram, quote, to not say anything about the shoes because then Shram would be an accessory.

You tell him about the shoes, you're going to be, then you're going to get charged. So you better keep that shit to yourself. Hey, I'm going to call you on a recorded line and talk about fucking major details of the shit that i didn't do i'm gonna say the words murder shoes on a recording that everyone could hear in the county jail um and then threaten somebody threaten them to not be a witness or else they'll get charged so i'm gonna i'm gonna tamper with witnesses and admit murder basically in a murder i didn't do. Yeah. Over a publicly, over a recorded line at the jail. You fucking idiot. This is how dumb these people are.

Fuck, man. This is a stupid group of people. Very stupid. Stupid family, I would say. And I'm throwing, Trent didn't kill anyone, but I'm throwing him in because he's always in and out of the county jail. So who knows what he's doing? He's not brilliant either.

No, none of these people have a lot going on. So then they call in the crime lab here. You get some evidence here. Jeffrey Nielielsen he worked for the crime lab he analyzed the blood and hair from the crime scene certain of the blood tested came from an individual of the same international blood group to which more belonged in other words it's his blood um and other testing produced inconclusive results or was not possible. This is 1982. That's the problem here. Nielsen also examined over 200 hairs and only two were inconsistent with the samples taken from more when analyzed by microscopic comparison.

Problem also is hair, white people hair, very hard to tell the difference back then before you could dna it like it was basically just they knew if it was a white person a black person like if you have dark hair and it's not just a straight regular hair they have no fucking idea where it came from basically um so they said that uh two hairs were not consistent uh yeah they said that uh two hairs hairs were not consistent uh yeah they said that uh two hairs were also not consistent with samples taken from denny and kent as well the hairs were retrieved from a sterile sheet used to wrap more his body and they were uh admitted into evidence as well but we don't know that could have came from the medical kind of the lab there's a lot of shit going on there for months exactly that could be could have been some woman he got the bullshitted at the bar and got her back to the house it could be that also too a lot of these the uh the body bags and things like that

like uh the equipment they use the shit on them they'll have hairs and they end up getting stuff on them it was a lot the 80s they had a lot less uh stringent crime scene protocol and there was hair everywhere there was hair everywhere and they didn't yeah it was just a different thing uh the state crime lab guy another guy here said he examined the phone book found in the house and says he was able to detect the presence of human blood stains on it he was not able to detect any blood on the shoes allegedly worn by uh by todd those shoes the murder shoes yeah there which i mean they were three months out who the fuck knows how many times it rained while he was wearing them and everything else he could have gotten the water he could have washed them

we don't know so uh charles hannah of the crime lab compared the tread on one of the shoes recovered from todd to the impression of the phone book he said while the pattern on the bottom of the shoe was the same pattern as the incomplete impression he could not determine whether the stat shoe specifically in fact made the impression but it's the same tread pattern so you can uh you can deduce it there but it's a common tread pattern so that's why i said don't know if it's that exact one or not yeah because it's it's partial to from november 9th to november 15th 82 is the trial they try them jointly oh yeah which is a big point of contention actually because they kind of turn on each other and they want them to be separate so they want to be severed and they don't let them put them together then you get you get less chance of them in each trial saying no it was him no it was

exactly because then and then if you try them apart there's the specter of the other guy always so it's one of those it's terrible it's it's rough so um they they do ask for a change of venue because everybody here kind of knows each other and that sort of thing. But the motion to change the venue is denied. They say, nope, it's all good. We're staying here. The reason why they said it was they said everything. This is crazy.

I read this in a newspaper article. Everything that was reported on it, they said, wasn't salacious. It was all just facts. That doesn't make it better. Now they know the facts, which said wasn't salacious. It was all just facts. That doesn't make it better. Now they know the facts, which they shouldn't know either. So they were saying basically they didn't make it, you know, they didn't sensationalize it any. So it's fine. All righty.

The trial court also refuses to turn over certain investigative reports to the defense. They won't let them see it. In the course of investigating this, they followed many different leads, because they had nothing at first, to try to identify suspects. The defense counsel requested copies of all written investigative reports to determine, in part, if the contents might support Kent Denny's theory that others had a motive to kill Moore. Because their theory is, is, he sold weed.

One of their theories is that he owed a lot of money to a, quote, big drug dealer. You know what a QP at Dirtweed went for in fucking Wisconsin in 1982? Probably 200 bucks, maybe. I would have guessed five. I mean, no. Back then, for Dirtweed, weed was cheap back then.

I mean, a quarter was a quarter. It was 25 bucks. And that was my time of dirt weed, weed was cheap back then, man. I mean, a quarter was a quarter. It was 25 bucks. Yeah. And that was my time of smoking weed. That was 15 years later. You know what I mean? So, I mean, in Wisconsin, that dirt shit, I mean, who the fuck knows if it was homegrown up there in the field.

I don't know what the hell's going on. 50 bucks. That's what I'm saying. I mean, I don't know what the hell's going on. Maybe he had good shit. I don't know what's going on. So, yeah, in response, the DA turned over some of the reports but submitted others to the court for inspection. After the court reviewed the balance of the reports, the court declared the contents irrelevant and refused to disclose them to the defense counsel.

So the judge decided that. Jeffrey here, they argue, argues that the reports show names of those believed by others to be involved. Like there's people in there. In the majority of these instances, the information can be classified as nothing more than finger-pointing gossip, is what the court says. In only three instances can a motive to hurt Moore be conceived. First, Gary Peterson threatened Moore with harm for not repaying a loan.

That was a rumor that went around. The problem is that Peterson was incarcerated at the time of the murder, so probably not him, we're going to say, unless he owed so much money that he could touch him from jail. Right, that Gary's higher on folks. Yeah, that's what I mean. Second, a Bill Kadehi is listed as having been angry with Moore. Well, I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of people that are angry with me,

but nobody's stabbed me 57 times. But the report provides Jeffrey with no more information than he had available to begin with. Third, it was reported that someone thought a guy named Randy Peterson might possibly be angry with Moore because of Moore's encroachment on Randy's drug territory. Okay, this isn't The Wire. We're not fighting over the low tops, dude.

This is a little bit of weed. This isn't. What territory? This isn't that pandemic, James. No one's on a corner. There's no territories. I've never heard of a suburban drug territory before. It does not exist ever.

It just doesn't. Nobody's wandering around Prescott arizona screaming yellow tops red tops yellow top pandemic this is my shit get off my corner that's never said there it's not happening no uh you call a friend that's what it is that's exactly it's very much like who wants to be a millionaire call a friend they bring it over you go over to their house and you have to smoke with them or hang out there for a half hour so it doesn't look weird it sucks it's who wants to get high? And you have one lifeline.

It's called phone a friend. And you'll get there. You'll get high. That's it. Jesus Christ. Now, part of Kent Denny's theory of the case was that he was not the perpetrator of the crime. And all of his inculpatory statements, all of his storytelling that he's told everybody that he's killed this person. Anybody will listen.

statements all of his storytelling that he's told everybody that he's killed this person that sobbed and cried and did everything else were just due to his quote proclivity for storytelling he's a spinner of yarn jimmy he's an entertainer that's it he's a spinner of yarns he's just uh he's the life of the party he's the life of the place like yeah like you know somebody's grandpa with good stories he's just got stories get a drink in his hand we all sit down and listen he's like mark twain essentially he's just telling a folk tale of what the fuck man best storyteller we know sit down just make something up you know like random like you murdered a guy or something call myself mark taint it's a little bit different get it yeah holy christ so he claims that he had no motive to murder more but plenty of other people did and he attempted to present evidence by means

of an offer of proof that to submit theories that other people had the motive to uh to kill more because you have to like basically get your defense approved by the judge you can't just throw anything out there you have to there's defenses you're not allowed to have that's good i love that because the judge should be telling them that well yeah just not to waste time listen you're gonna fuck yourself over you don't want to do that that's the other thing too yeah it's for their own protection a lot of times. At the same time, Kent sought to prove that he had a reputation. He sought to prove in court that he had a reputation as being a liar. So he went into court and he goes, I'm a fucking liar.

Ask anybody. I lie on my balls. You can't believe a goddamn word I said, and that's the truth. It's the God's honest truth. I swear, scouts honor. I'm a fucking liar. Well, that's the first thing I believe. Whoa.

Yeah. Second, I believe is that you're also capable of murder. This is fucking crazy. You know what murderers do? They also lie a lot. Yeah. They do. They're liars and murderers and liars and thieves.

And he said, I'm such a liar. He tries to prove that during the trial to which that'll explain my statements because i was just lying right see trying to impress people uh the court refused i'm such a liar trust me i'm such a liar and i swear to god that's the truth i'm not i shit you not i'm a huge liar you can believe that you can take that to the bank mister so scouts honor word is born oh do you know it baby the trial court refused to allow denny to present evidence suggesting that others might have had motive ruling it irrelevant because there wasn't an opportunity for any of those people to do it so you can't you can't just say other people a guy a guy on mars didn't like him he could have

done it well he's on mars so probably didn't do it whereas you said you did it right and you had murder shoes remember when you said you did it yeah jesus christ 37 times oh my god you said you did it as many times as he was stabbed so we're gonna go with that we're going with that uh he challenges the court's rulings as a denial of his right to put on a defense so uh the state calls it uh the meat and potatoes of the case. Yeah. Quote, unquote. Very Wisconsin. Very Wisconsin.

The meat and potatoes here were the collection of witnesses that they had that all said that they told me they did it. One told me, then the other told me. They both have the same story. Then I helped them dispose of the clothes. You know, lots of stories. There's the beer and the cheese of it. That's the beer and the cheese of it. That's the beer and the cheese of it.

Now, Laurie Jacques, we told you her story that she told, all that shit, on cross-examination. She testified on separate occasions. Kent had told her with regard for Moore's murder that, quote, somebody put a gun to his head and that he did it to prove it to his brother. That's what he said. Is he saying his brother put a gun to his head to do this? Somebody forced him? Yeah, hurt his brother. Yeah.

Jack A here. Jack, I'm just calling her Jack A. Jack A was also asked on another occasion, did he do it to say it was because it was either him or more? And she said, yes, I think I heard something like that done. So so either way all of this says he still says he killed this fucking guy right they cross-examine diane hansen which we've heard her her you know story poor woman yeah she's heard she burst into tears when she hears somebody killed somebody i don't want to say it again i'm gonna cry again i'm gonna cry oh god she's yeah they're to have to take breaks for her. There's a box of tissues up on the witness stand for her.

On cross-examination, she says that in her very first conversation with Kent about Moore's death, Kent told her that Leatherman had found Moore and Moore was dead and that it was an accidental death. And on redirect, she explained the conversation was the same day as Moore's death. So it was Le leather man didn't know anything about it at that point so there now the brothers don't testify neither of them testify because first of all you're seeking your when you're when your defense is i'm a liar yeah you don't want to go up swear in and then go i'm telling truth. I'm a fucking liar in court. How do you expect the jury to have any connection to you? It's so hard in these cases, too, when they don't take the stand, though. That's where he fucks himself, too, because I, as a juror, would want it.

I want your side of the story, man. I get that they get to cross-examine you and pick you apart. That's not good. At the same time, you're not allowed to take that as a juror into consideration that they didn't uh that they didn't testify because that's their right it's so hard not to take that into consideration and you could really get fucked up even if you're telling the total truth you can get really fucking tripped up and you know they could make you sound very guilty process so it's it's risky that's what they're trying to do it's risky yeah you ever seen like the uh the heard about the oj muck yeah testimony it's fucking i mean

he was terrible yeah he was if he testified he was rich expect to yeah and well with oj it wasn't even the fact that he would have said something wrong he would like the the prosecutor would say something he'd like smile give her like a wink and shit and they're like you know what are you doing don't do that and he's like oh my bad but he couldn't help it right it's just how he was so like we can't put him up there he's gonna be winking and smiling and fucking his charisma turns into smarm it's not good yeah charisma's great except when you're on trial for murder and then they're like you want they want a humble like contrite person they don't want somebody who's like fucking hey everybody come over my house for a big barbecue afterwards and then we'll drive around in my expensive cars that's not what they want it's different wink nod i'll thank you wink

nod look at you honey yeah look at i saw you coming in with your fat ass get on over here you can't have that no so they don't testify uh the attorney did not call any witnesses to testify either jeffrey's attorney didn't call any witnesses to testify either jeffrey's attorney didn't call any witnesses to testify kent's attorney attempted to call several witnesses but uh ultimately the only person that they really got up there that said anything other than yes i know them and christopher moore did sell pot yeah was their father gordon denny oh gordon gordon denny g gordon denny over here gordon testifies that his sons had been competing with each other all their lives that's what he says and that trent and kent had a poor relationship and that kent was something that explains why kent's telling

on him for murder falsely obviously and that uh that Kent sometimes was a practical joker, with some jokes being, quote, quite elaborate. Oh, boy. So, you know, like putting clothes in a bag and taking them, pretending he murdered somebody. You're telling us the first Logan Paul? Yeah. And that Kent had a, quote, habit of fabulation. Okay. Yeah.

He's telling stories yeah yeah he's fabrication he says fabulation as that's why i said it like that a quote habit of fabulation or telling stories he said like if you don't know what fabulate i mean telling stories obviously i thought fabulation i thought am i stupid no is Is that a word? That sounds like a made-up word that the Queer Eye for the Straight Guy guys would have had. That sounds like something with a feather boa. Yeah. We're taking you from nobulation to fabulation or some shit. I don't know what the fuck they would say.

We're going to take you from dad to fabulation. Congrats and fabulations. You are too dadulacious, and we're going to make you fabulacious. Fabulacious. You're going to go from dadulacious to fabulacious. Come on. Fabulation. Or telling stories.

This is a dumb family, I feel like. I'm Googling that when we're done here. I don't think that's a word. If it is, he might be the most genius if it is he might be a very specific i've never heard of fabulation am i like i said i'm not this i didn't go to college i don't have the but i i know some words i'm pretty decent with words and uh i don't know that one so you never know if it is i'm gonna use it more oh christ and then people are gonna go that's not the right word. Let me tell you. Let me tell you something, sir.

The word originated. In Grafton, Wisconsin, from a murder trial. About murder shoes. Ever heard of murder shoes, sir? Ever heard of murder shoes? Let me tell you about them. It might be a fabulation. Don't get me wrong.

I'm going to tell you all I know about it. about him it's it might be a fabulation don't get me wrong i'm gonna tell you all i know about so uh now they're trying to say there's a weird thing about conspiracy in this trial this is a like a legal you know kind of some legal wrangling kent denny argues that the statements of jeff denny how many more that's not that's jeffrey oh that's jeff the brother yeah jeff denny i'm like what the fuck we haven't called him the statements of his brother were not admissible because his brother had kind of said that he did it before. They were not admissible under the conspiracy exclusion from the hearsay rule. Basically, you need more than just uncorroborated uncorroborated testimony from a co-conspirator.

A co-conspirator. That's fine. But then that has to be corroborated by somebody else because they're a co-conspirator yeah a co-conspirator that's fine but then that has to be corroborated by somebody else because they're a co-conspirator so they're obviously can't be trusted right basically the the law there uh because and also they can just make it up and blame it on you there's reason so because the trial court uh uh failed to make the necessary factual findings to the extent of a conspiracy denny makes the argument that that in answer to the state's claim that the inculpatory statements were interlocking

because they showed the involvement of each co-defendant as to the crucial facts and an awareness of an overall plan or scheme. In other words, conspiracy. Conspiracy is amazing in the law. You don't even have to fucking know what the other person is doing. As long as you're helping it,

you're part of the conspiracy legally. It's crazy it's the insinuation that you know what the ending goal is is there and that's enough to to elicit conspiracy there's a lot of italian dudes sitting in federal prison right now yeah for shit they had never for drugs they never fucking touch for shit like that based on the conspiracy law of and a lot of these guys were like you know fucking bosses and shit that weren't told what they're just giving money but that's drug money and you know it's all whatever illegal enterprise it's bullshit i don't know it's all some bunch of rudy giuliani bullshit putting fucking let me put my own people in jail fuck you i can't catch them the other way so i I'll make some shit up. Yeah, exactly.

He's a fucking, and I don't care. I'm not saying, because there's a lot he's going on political now. Don't care. Cut him off at fucking, cut him off at September 10th, 2001. I fucking can't stand him. He did a lot of bad shit to Italian people. He did. You know how many people lost their fucking businesses because he made them testify or

threaten them with i'll charge you with conspiracy if you don't testify because you took a concrete job with the fuck out of here with that so many people and then forced into fucking assholes separate him at like september 15th yeah it's a mess too he fucked everything up yeah i've always since the 80s i've called him an uncle tomaso i've called him that i don't know if that's a it's good i don't know if that's like an urban dictionary thing but i i swear to god i said that in like 1990 yeah i've called him an uncle tomaso and it stays and it's and it really works it really does i don't like it i don't like him so i might have made that term up for an italian that is shitty to his own people i bought his book about leadership because i was

trying to just be a better person i was like leadership what year is this 2002 oh god no it was it was like november of 2000 oh okay he put it out mad quick yeah okay he he has a little bit of uh self-awareness he knows that he's he knows that people hate him grandstander that's like people are gonna figure this out that i'm smoking mirrors and a piece of shit so he put out a book and i read it and i was like this guy is really speaking sense and then i saw some extra shit and i was like he doesn't he's a bullshit artist yeah you know it's it's all fabulation it's all fabulation. I don't even think Jimmy read the book. I think he literally just said all that to get to fabulation.

You know that? You did, didn't you? You said all that shit to get to because you wanted to say fabulation. I wish that was true. Oh, I love that about that right now. That's a comedian right there. I like it. I like it.

I'll give you the book. Yeah, oh, no thanks. I don't want it anymore. I want to wash my hands of this thing. Nobody will take it. Yeah, and don't, please, honestly, do not construe this as political. This is a guy who married his cousin and put his own... He's objectively terrible.

That's exactly... He's objectively awful. As a human, we don't care about the rest of it. So, bad guy. So, anyway. Anyway, he makes the argument here that it uh what is this oh that an answer to the state's claim oh jesus christ anyway out of this he's basically saying that involvement of each co-defendant can't have all this shit and reading the transcript however

uh shows the trial court explicitly found a continuing conspiracy following the moore death so they are involved in a conspiracy anyway. In a response to a specific debate concerning the subject to where the defendant told the court that it had not made any findings that the conspiracy existed or continued to exist following the death of Moore, the court replied, this is the judge, quote, the testimony of Trent Denny is that about two or three weeks after Jeff had talked to him, they talked with Lori about getting rid of the clothes and both said they had to get rid of the clothes. I'm not holding that the conspiracy ended with Christopher's death when Christopher's death was terminated. Certainly then the acts of the two defendants after they disclosed their participation to others in the family and others of their friends and then asked for help to get rid of the clothes.

I think it's all part of that one thing. And I will deny the motion. Eat dicks, basically. So prosecutor closing arguments. State points to dozens of inculpatory statements allegedly made by Kent and Denny to various of the witnesses who had testified the evidence relating to the alleged destructing destruction of the clothing. The episode in which Denny showed which Jeffrey showed Trent the knife and the evidence relating to the shoes worn by Tom Trierweiler, including all this shit. Oh, the opinion as to the similarity between the impression on the phone book and the pattern of one of those shoes.

So they said, here's our mountain of evidence, by the way, that they said. Climb this and defend yourself. Yeah. The attorneys for Kent and Denny attacked state's witnesses and the state's physical evidence on numerous grounds, arguing that the state had not met its burden of proving their clients guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. One example, Denny's attorney characterized some of the state's evidence as this, quote, statements which, in my view, have been made by unreliable, incredible braggarts, liars to equally unreliable persons who, in my view, are drug users, possibly alcoholics, certainly

drunkards. certainly drunkards. Certainly drunkards. I can't. I don't know their exact medical. You know, I don't diagnose them, but they're drunkards that I can. That's a layman term. People who themselves admitted on the witness stand to being people who exaggerate, who lie, who make up stories, who had faulty memories and who have had their recollections refreshed

by police. Okay. So all of these people made up the same story. None of them are trustworthy. None of them are trustworthy, and they all separately of themselves made up the exact same story. Because it can't be my guy. Couldn't just be that my guy's killed the fucking person.

Every single person in this courtroom has said the words murder shoes. Yeah. None of it's all good none of it's related nope not reliable unrelated unrelated and unreliable sir a lot of the uns uh so the uh november 15th 82 jury departs from the courtroom at 4 56 p.m to deliberate come back at 4 57 p.m 503 now 10 49 p.m the court deliberate. Come back at 4.57 p.m. 5.03. No, 10.49 p.m. The court reconvenes. Because this is two. Not just one.

It's two whole things. They have to do all the paperwork. They have to go through each person separately. The court reconvenes. A verdict is read. And they are both found unsurprisingly guilty of first degree murder. If you tell everybody you know how you killed someone, then they tell the cops cops you're fucking going to jail right you're an idiot uh sentencing comes around i would have loved to hear their you know like oh come on man yeah like um i mean we didn't

do it and stuff yeah and we're liars and stuff and um my dad used the word fabulation so obviously we didn't come up in the best environment so i would just ask for mercy based on that just like general lack of education and just kind of stupidness maybe brain damage it's when you tabulate results in a very flamboyant way that's fabulous never mind greetings and fabulations so sentencing comes around like we said and the judge says you sirs may fuck off life in prison for both of you boy for the two years yeah life in prison so uh yeah they're going to prison for life yeah uh you know one is 20 and one's 18 and uh but i mean they fucking did some serious murder shit here um so in 83 uh jeffrey files a motion for post-conviction relief on july 83 the order

was filed denying that motion and then he filed a notice of appeal after that so on appeal the court authorized event defense counsel and the attorney general to read the investigative reports that came out because now it was like that's part of the appeal is like i didn't get to see those investigative reports and that would have cleared me. So and to argue whether the trial court erred in its decision, they read the reports and they claim the defense claims that the failure to allow his counsel through, we've thoroughly reviewed the contents of the sealed investigative reports. We conclude that no exculpatory information existed, which would have helped Denny in his pursuit of admissible evidence relating to third-party culpability. Most of the 236 pages show nothing more than an ongoing investigation of the crime. None of that information would have been helpful either in preparation or submission of admissible evidence in denny's defense so basically we talked to this

guy we talked to that that's all that's police reports and reports in a homicide they have to you know if your case is going they have to write reports to their their boss of what they're what they've been doing basically if they've been working on it because i don't know how many homicides are in ozaki county so probably when one happens, you concentrate, I'd assume. 237 pages worth. 237 pages worth. So Denny's argument is that there's numerous references to this, to persons having information about the murder of no import. There's nothing exculpatory in any of that information. His claim that one person gave detailed descriptions of the wounds of the body is also of no moment

because there's no hint of motive or opportunity which could have been used by them to blame it on that person. There's nothing in the report, however, that would help Denny show a direct connection to the crime. In sum, none of the material would enhance the admissibility of his proffered evidence or bring up additional evidence. The trial court properly refused to allow inspection of the documents byffered evidence or bring up additional evidence the trial court properly refused to allow inspection of the documents by the defense council now uh they also the defense

suggests that the witnesses in his case were not credible because of for example grants of immunity or admitted drug and alcohol use they're all who are you going to fucking talk to they hang out with a bunch of people a bunch of 20 year-year-olds who smoke weed and drink beer. Who cares? Good luck finding somebody that doesn't do that. That's what I mean. 82 in Wisconsin. One of those two things. We do that. People do that. Yeah, they're staying sane. It's brutal to live in a

small town like that sometimes. Yeah. Especially if you're a kid, you're bored. What the fuck? So, but of course the jury was not convinced by this argument. The idea that DNAna results denny seeks because now he wants dna later on would tip the scales and cause police or jury to reject the substantial evidence against denny is simply conjecture in 84 december 5th 84 court of appeals affirmed denny's conviction and said keep on keeping on shitbag. So in 85 here, February 5th, 85, the court denied review of his appeal.

In 87, he wants a new goddamn trial. Jeffrey does. Hold damn thing. Hold it. Let's do the whole ball of wax, baby. We're doing it again. Run this one again. Run it again.

He says that attempts to obtain a new trial, arguing the admission of Kent's confession, violated his rights under the confrontation clause of the Sixth Amendment as interpreted. He said basically, yeah, he couldn't face him in trial because he's his co-defendant. So the Court of Appeals affirmed the circuit court order denying the motion, concluding that Kent's statements were directly admissible against Denny. But even if Kent's statements were not directly admissible, it was harmless error to admit them

because it's the same thing that 40 other fucking people said, basically. So it doesn't matter. If you took that fucking toothpick out of the thing, is it going to fall? No. I mean, taking the words out of his mouth and putting it in the words in somebody else's mouth,

it's the same fucking information, man. If you take one two-by-four out of a house, it's not going to fall down. You know what I'm saying? Generally, yeah. It'd have to be a real specific one. So this all goes on. There's all these appeals process.

They kind of dry up in the late 90s, and they sit in jail for a while. In 2012, Kent Denny dies in prison. Get out! Dead in prison. Done! 40 years and 20 years out, 40 years in, fucking dead at 60. Unbelievable.

So yeah, that's that. So he just drops dead. That's the end of his appeals process, obviously. No more appeals. No more appeals for him. It's a good thing because he's a liar. Well, he's the most fabulating kind of motherfucker going. Fabulations and Murder Shoes has to be the name of this episode because it's

ridiculous so did he how'd he die did they say i couldn't find anything on it i mean they couldn't use the fabulator on i think the fabulator was broken that day the defabulator was not in operation that day they needed to defabulate him. Yeah, that's the problem. Clear. He had someone fabulation. Poof. He's fabulous now. Is he breathing? Not only is his heart beating, he's fabulous.

Look at him. His hair looks great, and I love that shirt. I sort of got it. Fabulation is a word. I'm going to be furious. I am, too. I am, too. And it's, you know what?

We deserve whatever we get for it if we're not knowing it. For two adults to not know it's a word, we deserve whatever shit we get for it. They're not stupid. You're stupid. Yep. It's true. Indeed. Can't argue with that logic now can i so uh through from 2014 to 2016 jeffrey renews his

efforts here um he seeks to have numerous items from the crime scene crime scene tested for dna yeah that he suggested might match other people already in the state or federal database or exclude him you know or uh or tend to prove him innocent is his thing he does get the help of the wisconsin innocence project oh really why what is about his case would get do they not have enough to fucking do there was this is pre-steven avery no this is after that so we'll just be focusing all effort on that i get at least there's a something with that what is he told 20 fucking people that he killed them in the same way and it's the exact way he fucking died right how else

would he know that how else would they know how that he got stabbed repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly that wasn't he was they were telling people right away about that shit it's crazy it's i get that there's no like oh there's a dna link but the sometimes circumstantial evidence when it's a mountain of it it's like holy shit it's there man brendan dassey said a woman was tied to a bed with chains and there was no marks on that bed uh that's what i mean this project worry about that yeah get him out maybe not yeah well whatever worry about steven later yeah let's get brendan let's get him he didn't do shit get him in front of a tv for some wrestlemania asap and let's go get him out and let his ears grow. Yeah, properly.

Let him out of Wisconsin so his ears can grow large and he can fly high. Let them blossom. So Denny moved to have crime scene evidence tested, including bloodied hairs and clothing, pieces of a broken bong, glass cup, lighter, and facial breathing masks. There was also face masks in there, which is weird because in 1982, he claimed he was innocent and sought to have it proven through DNA, pieces of the bong, the hairs, like we said,

the screens, the lighter, the glass cup, facial breathing masks found at the scene, one of which appeared to have been quite heavily soiled and the other one was clean there. Denny theorized that the perpetrator's DNA was left at the crime scene and that testing could produce several types of results is supportive of his claim. One testing on many or most of the items could exclude Denny. The same unknown third party profile could be found on multiple items or DNA results on one or more items could exclude Jeffrey and match a convicted offender in the state or federal data bank. He claims he was entitled to DNA testing at public expense or in the alternate,

even at his own expense. He could do it. So now they're under section nine four nine seven four point zero seven. Jimmy, I know that one. You do well. I know convicted persons can request DNA testing if, quote, the evidence is relevant to the investigation or prosecution that resulted in the conviction. The government will still possess. The government still possesses the evidence and the evidence was not previously tested for DNA or if new testing techniques would likely produce more accurate DNA results. And they tested 92 or something. more accurate DNA results, and they tested it in 92 or something. Denny also argues for DNA testing at public expense because it was reasonably probable that he would not have been prosecuted or convicted if such DNA

testing had been available before the prosecution or conviction occurred. He said he also met the additional requirements as well. So what up? Pay for my shit. But the county court, circuit court, denied his motion to test the evidence, concluding that DNA was not relevant to this because you told everybody in the town that you fucking did it. And then you disposed of clothes and you had murder shoes. Do we have to go through it again? You said murder shoes.

That's it. You said murder shoes, sir. This is the murder shoes file, right? You had to get this asshole out of my court. They noted that Denny was convicted based on testimony not physical evidence so this wouldn't contradict physical evidence and dna testing would serve no purpose because even if they found shit they would go well that was obviously somebody else that was in his room at another time because you told everybody you fucking killed him so it doesn't matter so unless it was like some serial killer that jeff that

christopher didn't know when they found his dna that would be the only way, which is a long shot to gunk up the system with DNA tests. So 2015, the county circuit judge denied the request. And in 2016, the Court of Appeals reversed that court and ordered the DNA testing. So they did that. A three-judge panel for the Court of Appeals here ruled that, yeah, because Denny met the requirements, which governs post-conviction requests for DNA testing, a two-to-one majority ruled in his favor and also ruled that he met other requirements for DNA testing to be performed at the public's expense as well. So 2017 comes around, and this is from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, this article,

because they did a good job of explaining this. They're referenced a lot. Give them some props here. This is from the Wisconsin Supreme Court, because it goes all the way there. Wisconsin Supreme Court has reversed a court of appeals decision that would have allowed DNA testing. We say no. Setting aside its own prior precedent in the process we don't like you so much holy shit even though it's precedent to let you do

it and we said we'd like this last week we don't like you so no the decision concluded that jeffrey denny who's represented by the innocence project did not meet the statutory threshold for old testing old evidence with new science even at his own expense he can't even if he pays for it we're not doing it and in the process overruled the unanimous 2005 decision interpreting the statute on post-conviction so they they were the ones who interpret it now they're going maybe we were wrong that's ruling was four to three to deny the testing, but five to two to overrule the court's prior case. Jesus.

There was a big dissent here. Justice Ann Walsh Bradley said, making several missteps along the way, the majority limits the contours of the search for truth. This is how that went. They said the idea that DNA results Denny seeks would tip the scales and cause police or a jury to reject the substantial evidence against Denny is simply conjecture that's the majority opinion so you know there you go i mean it makes sense here they said only the makeup of the court has changed since 2005 that's why it's changed they went back and forth they were arguing that it was political no it's not all that

sort of thing um they said the question is not whether there's strong evidence of guilt rather the question is whether the legislature has written a statute that gives Denny the opportunity to test evidence that has the potential to exonerate him. And apparently they don't think they have because they told him to keep on fucking off. And he's still in prison. Wow. So Kent's dead. Jeffrey's in there. Christopher's gone.

And we don't know what happened to the 11 man. And where's Trent? Trent's probably in and out of county jail since then, I say back and forth who knows or some other county in wisconsin trent's a state senator now for all we know who the fuck knows who knows trent's probably an asshole though that i'll guarantee it may be possible maybe not though he was the one who told so you never know either way hope you enjoyed that what a story crazy fucking story and murder shoes and all sorts of wild stuff happening there. Really hope you like that.

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everything like that but especially tickets to the live show virtual live show crime and sports and don't say oh it's crime and sports i like it's about suge knight yeah there's how much sports do you think is involved in that we're going to talk about like biggie and tupac and shit it's totally different thing. All crime. You're going to love it. Yeah. If you like these stories, you're going to like us making fun of Suge Knight and all his crazy crime for an hour and a half.

It's tonight and available for 72 hours after that, May 6th, 2021 and three days after. So get your tickets right now. Shut up and give me murder.com. In addition to that, you should also, you should do Patreon. You should do it not only because we get money for it, which we like too, but you're going to enjoy this content on Patreon. We throw down hard on Patreon. The last weekends that we put up were, we did for crime and sports, the college admissions

scandal where Aunt Becky ended up in prison, which is an interesting one. Very interesting, the story, how it went too, how they did it it was very scummy yeah and then for the small town murder bonus we did a cult deprogramming you did and we talked about a man named black lightning who will kidnap you off the street and berate you into abandoning your beliefs it's pretty awesome trying to make you hate who you love it's wild wild. So check all that out. That was out this past weekend. You get access to both shows, Patreon episodes, and most of this crime and sports ones are not about sports at all. They're about crazy other shit documentaries and stuff.

So you'll enjoy everything. You get the whole back catalog. And in a few minutes, as a matter of fact, Jimmy will mispronounce your name as we give you a shout out because you're a wonderful producer and we goddamn love you. So appreciate you. Check that all out. Patreon dot com slash crime and sports. And if you just want to make a donation, have good karma and also get your name mispronounced because that'll happen as well.

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Most of them are rescheduled. Yeah. It was something weird with Texas that's still going on that we're trying to. We're trying to come there. The dates. Everyone on earth that performs is trying to cram trying to come there the dates everyone on earth that performs is trying to cram two years worth of dates into 2022 so the it sounds crazy but the competition to get a date in 2022 in like october is insane right now so and it's not the competition like oh they pick so and so over us or whatever that's don't get mad at them for it's not the competition like, oh, they picked so-and-so over us or whatever. Don't get mad at them for it.

It's not a matter of that. It's a matter of we can only do it this weekend. Well, that weekend it's already booked. So what the fuck are we supposed to do? And then we throw challenges out. The word challenges is involved in this. So you don't know what you're doing. Then it's like, well, we have to wait on that date to see if this date goes because they have to be together because we're not going to send you out twice.

It's a huge, giant, fucked-up puzzle that we're so happy we don't have to put together uh we don't so that's good but uh it's complicated so we're trying our best we're going to get there and we're going to get everywhere we can this year get all your tickets right now and do all that and all those places without further ado though i would like to hear the list of the people who would never ever stab me, ever stab me 57 times for a quarter pound of weed and then talk about their murder shoes. Jimmy, hit me with the list of those fine people right now. This week's executive producers are Darlene James, Jordan Bennett, Chrissy Ann Castaldi, Clay Thorson, Michael Stahl, Thomas Hammer, Hammer Time, Laura McCormick, Christopher Gerke, Shana Bach, Michelle Mestis, and Maria Cephas.

You guys, I truly can't give you enough words. You guys are fucking incredible. Clay Thorson's also in the midst of doing some remodel stuff, because that's what he does for a living. And he sent me some pictures as to make me feel better about how god-awful my job is going. It's fucking crazy. Good luck, Clay. Yeah. Other producers this week are Gray Posh. She had a birthday, by the way. me feel better about how god awful my job is going it's fucking good luck clay yeah other

producers this week are gray posh she had a birthday by the way uh jen lucky in california zoe hempel dan slamma had a birthday uh earl and wendy hatley jean leon magnato uh carl kirschner corporal carl uh liz vasquez pixie de leon nancy sheely peyton meadows adele adele burbage she's the principal over at uh elk cove elementary do you remember her oh she was a teacher that came to her the principal that came to the right i do remember her i do what a deep dive that was great awesome yeah lou canova and his partner bar Dunn. I believe those are characters in something and I don't know what. Something, but thank you. Daniel Barbier, Joshua Kunkel.

He's the beer man. No, he's the brood man from the beer man and brood podcast. He died. The poor guy. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Sorry. That's terrible.

Oh, no. Horrific. Anyway, that's terrible. I get so uncomfortable when people donate in the memory of people. I know, because it sucks, man. Well, thank you. What do I say? What do I do?

I'm not going to do that. I feel awful. Thank you and sorry. Thank you. Sorry. So uncomfortable. Josh, I wish you were still here. Family Garden Seeds, James Marder, Adam Udaini, Jalen Tross.

They lost their grandma, and they're only 14. And I say they because I don't know if they're a boy or a girl. And I want to— Either way. Whatever. I don't care. But, Jalen, thank you for listening. Sorry that you lost.

And at 14, that's bananas to listen to this shit at 14. Yeah. Thank you for listening, Jalen. Listen to the parts where we tell you not to drag your girlfriend out like on Crime and Sports and shoot her in the trailer. That's bad. Other producers this week also are Steve Schnell, Josh Weir, Adam Foster, Elizabeth Jones, Lost Her Pup, Eleanor.

I'm sorry, Eliz. Eliz? Who says? Nobody says Eliz. What? Eliz. What up, Eliz? Sorry for your loss, Eliz.

All right. Jennifer Rydell. Justine Jeffries had a birthday. Happy birthday, Justine. Jennifer Stevens. Barbara Howells. Dr. Sidney Freeman. Their MASH unit, 4007.

That's clearly from MASH, right? MASH, yeah. Yeah. I'm a dummy. Was it the 4077? I don't remember. 4007? Yeah.

I thought it was two sevens. I don't know. I thought so, too. thought it was two sevens. I don't know. I thought so, too. What the fuck do I know? I don't know. Grizzly Adams and Ben? I didn't. Why did I say I think I did?

I think so, too. I don't fucking know. Why am I trying to act like I know something? I know things. Why does that matter to me so much right there? I don't know. That's amazing. I love it.

Yeah, I think you're right. Demi Ray Gardenhier? I think it. Yeah, I think you're right. Demi Rae Gardenhier, I think. I think so. Kenia McLeod, Janice Hill, Jay Mullins, December Theron. I wonder if they're related. Possible. I hope so. David Beers, Sean Turney, Cassie and Mary Greats, Rosa Martinez, Ashley Veo, Tavia Buck,

Rosa Martinez, Ashley Vio, Tavia Buck, Sean Marani, Marijuana, Mayor Ronnie. You fucking eye-tie us, James, with your fucking names. I can't do it. He's bad with it. It's never going to happen. He's bad. Bitchy Leah Bumridge, I guess. Ryan Bitchcat. That's a legit name.

Mandy Lebeco, Jesse Pitts. He got a mortgage. Good work, Jesse. Thomas DeMello, Thomas Smith, Michael Autry, Nicole Sweet, Christy Jukes, Amirani Luna, Kellen Bart, oh boy, Berzabal,

Abby Rentaz, Paige Loveless, Kevin Blackwood, Connor Thune, Steve Kearns, Keisha Reeder, Justin. You know Justin. Oh, Ravioli. Yes.

Yeah. Bryn Villamizer, Tim Hadler, Mandy. And, you know, Mandy, you remember her? The Coleman's, from the Coleman's out in Connecticut there. Amy Yardwood, Jennifer Spadora, Maeve Rooney, Mavi, Paula Josick, Christopher with no last name, Rooney, Mavy, Mavi, Paulus Josik, Christopher with no last name, Luis Chavez, Alex Fuller, Perry Brooks, Justin Black, Bethany Vium, Corey Zielinski, Ryan Sully, Kyle Dunalan, Alandis Tisby, Nick Farrer, Martin Logan, Hootie, Nick's cousin, Emma Roebuck, Heather Allen, Kayla Pateau, Shane Nissen, Heather Howe, Rod Hendricks, Jimmy's Kid, Jennifer Carter, Jonathan Carmen, Bob Bennett. Oh, boy. Dustin Skibby.

Sky. Upside down. Upside down. Shannon Fuller. Kelly Ware. Catherine Pritchard, Allison Putts, Someone Special, Mana with no last name. Mana? Is that their last name? Is that the last name? I think, was Mana the last name? I think so. Maybe. Maybe it's the first name. Oh, it's the first name. I don't know. I think it's the last name.

All right. Colleen Shambaugh, Cy Powell, Verity West, Sheena with no last name, Karina T, Alyssa Bucci, Lauren Stevenson, Sydney Brown, Katie Schaub, Alana Carpenter, Rachel Hauser, Christine Ballone, Ben Boonstra, Cody McGillicuddy, Paul Parker, Brandy Forer, Jenny B, you know her, and Subba C, you know him. Oh, totally. Or her. I don't know. Coming over for Christmas.

Jill Huff, Kevin Keeter, Kelvin Keeter, Corey Sullivan, Heather Larson, Suzanne Burns, Zach Burns, James Luck, Daylon, Daylon Caldwell, Daylon Caldwell, Jason Wilson, Narissa C., Shannon Brackeen, Jen Lowe, Kennedy Chrissy, Gracia Aggressor, Andrew Combos, Combos Fortune, no way. I love Combos. Yeah, the pretzels with cheese, fucking hell. Oh, fuck yeah, you gotta have the pretzel ones, not the cracker ones. Andrea Domotrovic. Sassy. You know that gal, Sassy.

Gugli Amino. And Jason, too. Same family. Holden Schlage. Brandon Shepard. Sarah Kay. James Hawkins. Hawkins.

Maya Tua. Henry Lobster. Lobster. Henry. What? Josh Fenwick. Tracy Stevens. Jessica Martinez. Sarah DeLoach, Bree, that girl Bree.

Compitello. Yes. Kristen Weber, Joseph Howell, Chibi, and Dan. You know both of them. You're familiar, right? Maraschano, yeah. Yes, Chris Gray, Samir, oh boy nagin in an anna jar fuck maddie with no last name megan jones michael mckee mckeeman uh jordan bartlett

bethany schmitz melissa donaldson zeb logan watson rachel jewel cecilia hemingway nick from over over that thing smith yep eliz Elizabeth Jones. Kathy Vizcarondo. Carol Marshall. Kyle McCoy. Megan Lush. Emily Bachman. Crystal Beach. Blake and Brad.

You know those guys. Wissman, your cousins. Yeah. Carly Siemens. Oh, boy. Chazen Prevett. Donna Burge. Erica Christensen.

Julie Watterson. Christine Poole. Ed La Russa, Howard and Marta Nagorska, Jolene Sequenza, Matt Sorsby, Alexandria Douglas, Jeff Going, Crystal Actis, yes. Oh, I don't think so. Phil Simpson, Rebecca Rampley, Olivia Corbin, Lisa Erickson. Uh-huh. Maria. Nope, that's Mary. Dax Dock Savage, Sue Mathnag.

Boy, oh boy. Shane King, Gail Connor, Jim Clem, Sandy Hurst, Casey. Casey. Remember that guy? Uriaco. Yeah. I don't know. Andy Hurst, Casey, Casey.

Uriaco. Yeah. Alexandra, Alexandra Dillard, Michael Giannetti, Andrew Daniels, Fern and Kaylee. Ray. Nope. That's Ryan Alderman. Josh. Oh, that guy.

Corleone. Yeah. Whitney Schacht, Katie Baltz, War Horse Torres. Fuck. Why is that so hard? War Horse. That's not so hard. War Horse. But there's an H near a h near a w and then or so it looks like whore to me w the r and the h together if you mix them all i'm never gonna say war horse god it's hard to say uh team of foggy uh tema foggy

laura would know you know laura that gal laura oh the the i i met her the one time yeah Jones yeah that's probably it Anthony Gilder Dalton with no last name Nicole Hollis Hartley Jordan Rios Don Allen Connor GM Pietro nice that's a tough one Melissa McCoy

Charles Smith Sebastian Bacon Kevin's kid that's amazing Debbie Keene Deshana Dorsey, Apartment 160. Everybody that lives inside there. Finlay Layton, Julia Fector, Kevin. Sassitano. I think that's him. Leah Lucchesi, Gentry Shanholtz, Johnny Loco, Anna Bumhofer, Coco Romo, Janice Bennett, Daniel Nevant, Judgment Calypso Cat,

Judgmental Calypso Cat, Alyssa Schuchler, It's Mio, Scott Reynolds, James Degro, Elias Banks, Ryan Penrose, Rosario Salarez, Salazar. God damn it. Ben Robinson, Lisa McCauley, Natalie Buell, Abby Dam, Rebecca. Nope, that's Renee. What is that? Sower Inc., Jordan Martinez, Taylor Pilkington, Amy Klaus Sierra, Samantha Ditt, Thomas Martin, Devin Rhea, Diamond Enderrough, Megan Cowan, Michael Tricarico, Megan, oh, Megan, do you remember her?

Lockins. Yes. Zachariah Cook, Douglas, her friend Douglas. Oh, Martin, yeah. And Megan and James Tocic. Joe Foster, Abigail Estip, Josh Whitakeraker kendall mac gwendolyn uh from the thing mcintyre i think that's right matthew wonder nadia bowman bob richmond and adam ianetti gretchen rose daniel lewin uh kelsey thomas andrew jadarski matt sawchuck abby hegstrom

and all of our patrons you guys know who who you are. You're fucking amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, everybody. And while we were while we were doing the the shout outs, we did take a peek at the old Internet there. And fabulation is a word. And it means exactly what it means in the context. It's telling fucking false stories. It's unbelievable. So dad is actually

not an idiot and is in fact smarter than both of us and we're the idiots or he just uh has a lion-ass son who he has to find extra words that's true to describe i called him a liar i called him full of shit i called him uh untrustworthy what's a fabulous fabula... I don't know. Shit, I got the dictionary out. He's fabulicious. He's got a thesaurus going on. His sons are such assholes. I am stunned. I'm stunned, too.

Well, what if somebody wanted to complain that you don't know a word? How could they do that? They've already done it by now. But you know where we're at. At Wiseman Sucks. That's where you can direct all your iron ilk for me not knowing fabulation. And I didn't know either, so I'm not out of the woods either. I'm at Jimmy P is funny, and I'll take my lumps as

dessert. As you've already delivered, I already know. Because no one listens to this part of the show, so they're not going to know our act of contrition. So, there that goes. I love podcasting. That said, there's nothing we can do about it now.

Still call it fabulation? like we're just making fun of that's we'll do it just do it anyway who cares that's it thank you so much for joining us and we'll be back as always and until next week everybody it's been our pleasure Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.