Small Town Murder - #233 - A Messy Web Of Death - Hastings, Michigan

Episode Date: July 22, 2021

This week, in Hastings, Michigan, a small town erupts in scandal, when a vicious murder takes place, and it turns out not to be the simple robbery that someone wanted to make it look like. The characters that come out of the woodwork are remarkable, with a web of suspects, and members of what is believed to be a conspiracy. Or, maybe it's an experienced killer? Or a wounded lover? This maze eventually gets sorted out in such a strange way, that it definitely needs to be heard to be believed! Along the way, we find out that people here lift weights in the street, that it's hard to destroy half of a person's skull by accident, and that justice is sometimes quite muddy!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman  New episodes every Thursday!  Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail]  Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!  Follow us on...  twitter.com/@murdersmall  facebook.com/smalltownpod  instagram.com/smalltownmurder  Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Hastings, Michigan, a vicious murder involving lust and money causes a scandal to erupt in the community. But once the sordid tale is brought to light, will anyone even end up paying the price?

Welcome to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrogallo. I'm here with my co-host. Hi, I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. We're so excited to be here today. I know you are because you like loaded up for your yay. There's a yay that just comes out and then there's a yay that you kind of like, I could see you like loading it and then it.

I really got to push it out. You're like, pow, like you cock your body to like, pow, there it's going to come out now. It's a little bit of recoil. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. We are very, very excited to be here, like I said, and we're just, thank you for being here. First of all, thank you so much for joining us. We are very, very excited to be here, like I said, and we're just thank you for being here. First of all, thank you for your reviews this week. They help a lot. Apple podcast, that purple icon. Don't know why they help, but they do.

So give us five stars on there. If you would head over to shut up and give me murder dot com immediately right now. Well, when the episode's over with, you know, you don't want to finish this shit. Yeah. You don't want to like miss the story. But anyway, head over there right now. Get all your merchandise. New stuff is up all the time.

Crime and sports stuff and small town murder stuff. And if you haven't listened to crime and sports, this is a good week to start because we kind of lost our minds this week. So if you want to hear us just kind of snap and go crazy and not really care care anymore that's the episode to listen to which on kabari salem the boxer so check that out it's crazy and there's murder so yeah you might you'll like it all around so check that out and uh do all of that i'll get your tickets to live shows my goodness so many live shows out there all throughout 2022 the end of 2021 get your tickets now a lot of them have been on sale they went on sale like two years ago or something a year and a half ago literally a year and a half ago so

nobody does this no so there's you know tickets are gone in a lot of these places so check that all out do that also listen to ps i hate this movie because i watched britney spears movie this week and uh you had a lot to say about that. If you'd like to hear my impression of Robert De Niro being Britney Spears, that's the place to go to it there and Patreon this week. Oh my goodness. What a good week. If you haven't gotten on Patreon yet, this is a good week to get started.

And by the way, if you, for your, anybody over the $5 level, you get access to all the Patreon episodes, both shows this week for the crime and sports one, which you get as well as the patreon episodes one of them both shows this week for the crime and sports one which you get as well as the small town murder one we have avoidable off-field injuries so this is going to be a lot of fun no sports involved just people doing really stupid

things to ruin their careers because one of our subjects in an episode got thrown down the stairs by a studio 54 bouncer, ripped up his knee, and he never really played again. And he was like a top all-star basketball player, top level, 28 points a game. He was Michael Jordan's idol. He was. That's who he wanted to be. And yeah, there you go.

So check that out. It's really going to be wild stuff. And then small town murder is going to be even crazier because people all over the world and even all over the country, they ask us, what's going on in Florida? What's up? Why is there weird stuff happening down there? I'd like to know too. So we're going to look back over, I don't know, they'll come from the last hundred years. They're all peppered in there of crazy Florida murders that I can find in newspapers and things. And you can guarantee there's going to be an alligator involved in a couple of them. It's going to be weird stuff. So check that out.

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Crime and sports at Gmail dot com. Terrific. Disclaimer time. It is. This is a comedy show. We're comedians. Jokes are going to happen along with death. Oh, yeah.

That's the show. It's small town murder and we're comedians. So all the facts, all the facts are real. We're not making stuff up to you know get any kind of thing like that and we're not excited about murder either we're not like oh good they're dismembering this person that'll be hilarious that's not what we said the comedy comes from so many other places yeah bumbling you know people blowing an investigation and letting a murderer walk three walk free just the idea of i think we can kill this person and get away with it.

That's hilarious because it's crazy. So if you think that's all good, and one thing we go out of our way to do, and we always do, is we try not to make fun of the victim or the victim's family. Why? Because we're assholes. But? We're not scumbags. There you have it.

So if that sounds good, I think it's time to sit back, clear the lungs, and shout, Shut up and give me murder. We went a little crazy on that one. We apologize. But anyway, let's do this, Jimmy. Let's go on a trip. What do you say? Let's get after it.

Let's do it here. We're going back to Michigan. Oh, boy. Here we go. Back up to Michigan. We're going back to Michigan. Oh boy. Here we go. Back up to Michigan. We're going to Hastings, Michigan. Lovely. The murder happened in Hope Township, which is a little, it's pretty much

part of Hastings. It's all counted in the population of Hastings. So we're just going to do Hastings as the umbrella town here. It's in southwestern Michigan, but more toward kind of central Michigan. It's about 40 minutes to Grand Rapids. It's over in that direction.

About two hours and 10 minutes to Detroit, so far away from there. And about two hours and 20 minutes to Brownstown Township, which was episode 200 back in early December of 2020. Shit town. Shit town. Shit town. So, Barry County, this is in. Area code 269. Barry like a guy's name or like the barry yeah b-a-r-r-y okay barry county uh five square miles in so it's not a huge place it's just kind

of this a few little towns kind of stuck out in the middle of nowhere by themselves out here and um the motto here is quote we treasure the old progress with the new oh i don't know that's so silly i don't even have a second one for that that's just i mean it encompasses a lot with that i think that's what it is it's really like we're going for a broad audience and we'll we cast a wide net it's basically what they say we don't want to piss anybody off. We treasure the old, but we do progress with the new as well. So, you know, everybody's welcome.

Pay your taxes. That's basically what they're saying here. So history of this town, little history. We'll go through it very quickly here. In 1836, three entrepreneurs bought 480 acres here from a Detroit banker and called it Hastings. The Detroit banker's name was Hastings, so that's how it ended up being Hastings. Nice connection. Very, very easy here. There was a Sash Doors Blinds and Hardwood Lumber Company here for a long time,

Dickey and Prentiss, about 1865. Yeah, they did a whole deal here in 1878 they uh bentley brothers and wilkins came in and i think they're still in business this one really i'm not sure hardwood floors and shit i guess that's what they made at the time um sash doors blinds hardwood lumber and agricultural tools yeah i'm not sure what a sash door is i don't know i'm not sure about a sash door is. I'm not sure about a sash either, but they make them. If you're looking for a sash, I think maybe that's the place

to do it here. So a lot of sawmills in this area. Yeah, there was a connected with the furniture with the factory that made all that shit was a sawmill. So they just bring the wood right in and make the... Beautiful. All one big deal. There's a place in phoenix that has

hot dogs like that where they have a big shriners oh yeah that's they make those jalapeno cheddar dogs are the most incredible the cheese oozes out they're insane those hot dogs i've never been on the place but that's my mom's maiden name so i was really pointed it out yeah it's amazing it's this little tiny place the the the like store part is like half the size of my studio right it's a little tiny box and you order your shit and it's amazing it's so good wow get trainers everybody in phoenix so um it'll cheer you up from the sun sucking so anyway which we told you would happen by by the way. Yeah, you called it. It happened. It's not hard to call, honestly.

They picked a hell of a time to lose four in a row. They've never lost four in a row all season. Yeah, that's what I mean. They'll go to great lengths to break our hearts. That's why I said even if they won the championship at the parade, I'd be going, hmm, what's going to happen? I don't think so. Something's going on.

I wouldn't trust it. At the parade, the car carrying Devin Booker would careen off the road into a fucking canal or something. Well, that's his problem. We already got the title. That's all I care about. Whatever. That's fine.

I'm saying they'd stop the trophy. The commissioner, Adam Silver, there would come out, stop the parade and say, we've changed our minds. We've reviewed the tape. And actually, you're not the champions. That's what happened. There was a foul in the third quarter negating 12 points yeah so here's a guy's life in this town slocum h bunker he built the first house devoted to entertainment and it was a a boarding house for mill hands and yet he also served booze and you know had i'm sure women and

sure you know it was a it's an entertainment house you know what that means it was like the gem it was and entertainments in quotes by the way which definitely means that they sold women it's a long word for pussy sir yeah so then uh levi chase was the proprietor of the first Hastings Tavern, which was like a shitty log building, and that stood near the riverbank. And he gave up the tavern in 1842 and then retired and died there. So died of the spotted fever. Yikes. What is that? I don't know.

Some 1800s disease. What is this spotted fever? We've long wiped out with a... Who knows? It'll probably be back soon with the wave. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's coming.

It'll be here in a minute. Spotted fever, everybody. Watch out for it. So reviews, who knows? I don't know. Reviews of this town. Here's a five-star review. Quote, it's a small town.

Everyone knows everyone. There are a few bars and the casino isn't too far well that's always a plus there but there's no clubs which i'm okay with so why are you mentioning it if you don't care just in case you're looking for it keeping the people out for looking for them again yes don't don't come here if you're looking to be you know like go to a go clubbing people people really get involved with the community there are are love bands at the Appa Theater. Love bands? I don't know what the fuck that is.

Little festival. Love bands. You just really just tighten it up. Little festivals and farmer's markets. There are several stores to choose from, so you don't need to leave town if you don't want. All righty. The schools aren't the greatest but as of this year they're doing a huge remodel so that could be changing well the

actual building doesn't have any correlation to the level of education that's going on inside of it i don't have you seen yale it is beautiful yeah i mean i'm sure modern technology could help certain things but if it's a shit school it's probably going to be a shit school, even if you put it at the Ritz-Carlton. It's going to be a shitty school inside the Ritz-Carlton at that point. Drywall doesn't come with curriculum. No, it doesn't. It's weird. You'd think it would, but all in all, it's a great place to raise a family.

All righty. Unless you want to send your kids to the school, which apparently isn't very good. Five stars. Hey, Orko Clubbing. Five stars. Hastings isco Clubbing. Five stars. Hastings is a beautiful, although small, town in Michigan. The libraries are filled with current and useful information. Well, terrific.

What do you mean? They keep books in the library and newspapers and stuff? Wild. Wow. Thanks for the tip. Novel idea. It's weird. When you go to restaurants there, you can get food, I hear.

It's strange this is crazy thing like maybe maybe they've been to omaha and they know what happens in some parts of this world so they're like you know at the the mattress factory they don't serve food here they actually have mattresses it's all mattresses they have uh this is crazy though yeah could they cars drive on the road here jimmy It's bananas. It's wild. Dog parks and playgrounds are plentiful. The people are so nice

you can't go anywhere without seeing someone you know. Gross. Okay. Here's two stars. Different opinion. Two stars. Quote,

I grew up here and I wish I hadn't. So that's a good way to start it out. In a rural town, there's not much to do other than drive around. True. Growing up, the schools seemed like they didn't care about the students' safety,

as there was asbestos in my elementary school, and things in the schools were falling apart. Well, maybe that remodel will fix that up. So that's helpful. That's another fix in it, sir. Hopefully that'll work that out. The town seems to be filled with meth addicts and racists flying confederate flags all over town several reviews were about the incessant number of uh confederate flags here there was a lot there's a lot of people talking about oh michigan is there's

some redneck shit going on in michigan it's the out of all the northern states it's it has potential for most rednecky in certain areas it really does and we love michigan it's the out of all the northern states it's it has potential for most rednecky in certain areas it really does and we love michigan i fucking love detroit and all that shit it's great kid rock but it's it's some weird shit um how do you think people how do people think that looks to outsiders not friendly that's for sure i grew i grew up he's like not friendly everybody i grew up without internet access due to living in a very rural area. Yet teachers still expected me to be able to get things done online without having proper resources in the school and at home. That's a bigger issue of rural people not having the access that we need.

But anyway, two stars there. So it is ranked here on the Sperling's Best website, Sperling's Best Places. I found that it is ranked as number two most secure large city in the U.S. It's not a large city, though. I'll tell you the population. You're going to go large. Number 15, America's best cities for a healthy retirement. It's freezing up there.

I don't know what the hell kind of retirement uh number 18 most comfortable summer cities i bet summers are beautiful up there uh number 19 hypertension hot spots so there's that one child for that and then 19 best cities for teleworking all right uh i mean it sounds great, but stay in your home, be secure, and don't leave or else you're going to be frustrated, evidently, with the hypertension, right? But if you go to the library, you're going to be very happy with the selection and the current nature of their publications. You're going to learn all about your hypertension. Yeah. People in this town, 7,289. So that's a tiny place for them to even call it a city.

It's up 11% since 1990, so it's crept up a little bit. More females than males in this by a decent margin, actually. More than usual for a town of this size. Median age here is 33 1⁄2, so it's about four years younger than normal. Married population's slightly low, but it's pretty much in the range. All the normal stats are pretty much there, except less single people with no children. Really? Yeah. Well, no clubs either. So if you're looking to party and find some

single unattached people, your prospects are slim in Hastings, everyone. It sounds as though the club people who search areas to find demographics to find where to build a club are very well aware that the whole reason to go to their club does not exist here. Yeah, it just doesn't exist. It's a club that has a nursery in it, so that's a thing. You just drop your kid off. They've cleared out the coat check area of an older club. You get two free drink tickets with a drop off of a kid. I mean, the kids, you give them a couple drinks, they go right to sleep.

You know how they are. So a race of this town, 94% white, which is a lot, 0.3% black. That is not a lot of black people to be, you know, between Chicago and Detroit. 2.1% Asian, which is about half the usual. And then 1.1% Hispanic. So it is. Okay. This is pretty goddamn white here.

23% of the people are here are religious, which is less than half the average. It's normally 50-50. And it's spread around pretty even. The highest percentage of denomination is other Christian. Wow. Other Christian faiths. I don't know what the hell's going on up there. The Confederacy, does that count as a Christian faith? I mean, some parts of the country, I feel like it does, but I don't know. Zero point zero percent Jewish, though, and zero point zero percent Muslim as well. In this county, barry county in the last election 33 percent

democrat and 65.3 percent republican and um less than two percent independent so um i expected more independent up there if i'm being honest so yeah in rural michigan yeah well if you're i mean the confederacy doesn't exist so if you're down with that, like, I feel like maybe you're looking for an outside opinion. I don't know. Looking for anybody else. You're not looking for one of the two majors, I'm thinking. So unemployment here is a little bit lower than the average. A lot of manufacturing jobs here.

That's about 25% of the jobs are manufacturing jobs, which is. That's Michigan. That's, yeah, that fluctuates and then the economies kind of go up and down. There's a lot more people here making under $15,000 a year than usual here. And then median household income everywhere in the country, the average is about $57,500. Here, it's $48,114, so almost there, not terrible. Cost of living, $100 is average, regular. Here, it is $83.5. So not too low, but the housing is super low. Housing is a 53 out of 100.

My God. Median home cost, $122,100. So affordable. Affordable. Not a lot of stuff available, though. That's kind of like the value of the houses, you know what I'm saying? Got it. Now, I found here, and you know what? If you need to go there, you know what we have for you. Aren't you lucky?

You're lucky day because we have for you the Hastings, Michigan real estate report. average two-bedroom rental here goes for about 910 a month which makes no sense because to buy a house it's like a way cheaper thing so right housing the rental is not the way to go there's tons of land here for sale all sorts of land this empty ass land that's cheap i found eight and a half acres on a lake on a big lake just eight and a half acres of woods on a lake i mean if you wanted to build something 79 900 bucks for that's that's 10 10 000 an acre that's what i mean even if you have you want to build a cabin or something that wouldn't cost that much that's amazing for under 150 grand you could get like eight and a half acres on a lake with a cabin done. Unbelievable. That's pretty good.

I found a two-bedroom, one-bath, 816 square foot little house. Kind of dumpy, not going to lie. Not great. The house next to it is a little too close to it. It's kind of claustrophobic. $127,500. Not that cheap

either. Then I found a four-bedroom, two-bath, 1,586-square-foot house. So you can have a couple of kids in there. This is the mansion? This is the mansion. It's kind of busted up. It's a little not perfect. It's got a decent sun porch out on the one side that's okay. Not the best, though.

162,900. Which, if you've got a couple of kids, it's not a bad price to somewhere where you could all fit. That's pretty decent. Trick trick's got to be a roommate or some shit like that. Yeah, dude, I don't know what's going on here. Things to do in this town.

Oh my goodness, this sounds like something else. It's like a catch-all festival, I found, basically. It doesn't really have a theme. It's Hastings Summerfest. It's August 27th through the 29th, so you can still go. It's right now. Held in downtown Hastings by the Barry Chamber of Commerce and features arts and crafts, vendors on the courthouse lawn, concessions. So the whole town's like taken up by this. You probably can't drive in the main part of town. I'll bet you're right.

But they close the roads off. Free trolley rides, children's activities, a softball tournament, a weightlifting contest. Oh, my God. A weightlifting contest. Oh, my God. A weightlifting contest. I hope they do that right on the double yellow, right in the middle of the goddamn street. I really do. I hope they put the fucking bench straddling the double yellow

and have shirtless people screaming and lifting weights in the middle of the street. That's what I hope goes on here. Whose idea was this? How exhausted were they of ideas that they were like, I don't know, we could lift shit. We could lift shit. This sounds like a prison event. Besides the car show,

it sounds like the prison event. We have three on three basketball tournaments and weightlifting contests on the courthouse. That's why we're going to do it. It sounds like a goddamn prison event. Like family day at prison. That's just going to be for us. What are we going to do for everybody else?

I don't know. I could have my cousin Theo bring his Impala down here. I mean, he's real proud of it. He's real proud of it. I'll tell you what. We could just have him bring it on. It doesn't run. He'll have to put it on a tow truck, but it's an old car.

He's got what we could do is it's a convertible, so if we stick a Confederate flag in one of the seats, it'll fly high out of it. So there is that. So it is a, they have a three-on-three basketball tournament, like I said. A softball tournament as well. I wonder if this is like Funny Farm. If this is like, remember the fishing tournament and he hooks the guy and shit? I wonder if it's like that. It's gotta be there's a rosebud

come on rosebud uh who's playing we get a 5k and a 10k run a fun run which i guess is less structured whenever you're done no time limit no a weight lifting competition like i said and then if you're all done with that and you're tired of being in the main town square there's a quote i don't even want to know what this is a backwoods triathlon which is like you punch your wife fuck your sister and accidentally shoot yourself in the leg that's a backwoods triathlon i I feel like. Try to outrun hillbilly rape in the woods with a bullet wound. Molest your sister, hide your meth, and then escape a police intervention. That's the hillbilly backwoods triathlon.

While the bloodhounds chase your scent. That's it. Come on, everybody. It's a backwoods triathlon. Jesus Christ, everybody. It's a backwoods triathlon. Jesus Christ, man. They have a car. And the people handing water just handed you moonshine as you run through the woods. And you're like, oof, boy.

People just dropping dead. People just stopping, forgetting what they were doing because they're shit-faced. What the hell am I out here for again? I want to do one of those. Oh, man. Jesus Christ. Where did I out here for again? I want to do one of those. Oh, man. Jesus Christ. Where did I put that meth now? I know I hit it and it just ran.

So at the car show, it is a $15 vehicle entrance fee, and they're going to have arts and crafts and all sorts of shit like that. Bring your family in your classic or antique car or truck and enjoy the Summerfest. 30-plus trophies will be awarded and best in show even will be awarded. For the car show?

For the car show. 30 fucking trophies? 30 trophies, all sorts of categories. Old one, vans, trucks, cars, muscle cars, cruisers. You know, they probably break it in a million categories. 30 trophies? How many categories? Guy with the most tread on his tires still you probably have to break it down into times too

yeah you gotta have like you know 30 1930 to 1950 then like the 50s one you can't have like a you know an 86 corvette competing with a 57 chevy they're just not the same why not piece of machinery you know they're not the same jimmy jesus we need to hand out 30 fucking trophies and prolong this. Jesus, the trophy ceremony will take all day. That's what I mean. Well, you're paying 15 bucks. You've got to see something. They have a live DJ there as well.

Oh, boy. What do you think they're playing? I don't know. I've got a commercial for like Jock Rock 6 or something. It is all oldies all day, Jamesames you've been to a car show yeah that's true it's a bunch of old people at that so um it's crazy there you go crime rate but we're interested in in this town here uh property crime is about one-third less than or under the national average so um there's that so the crime rate property is not that bad and then violent crime murder rape robbery and assault the mount rushmore of crime

obviously it's about 25 percent under the national average so okay it's got a lot of it's pretty safe and it's pretty charm it's pretty rural so i mean it's there's not there's not a lot of i always say you really gotta want it if you're not crammed in with people and you're still being violent, you really have to want it at that point. You're just a bad guy. Yeah, you got to seek it out. Like, I get it if you're living in, like, a tenement building in 1912. You're going to stab a neighbor once in a while. There's, like, 100,000 people living in a building meant for 600 people.

So, I get that. But this is rural. You don't stab a guy on the next farm. Walk to your own farm. What the fuck is wrong with you? And you'll cool off by the time you get there. That's a long walk. It's a long walk.

So anyway, let's talk about a murder, shall we? All right. Let's get into this here. We have to go back in time a bit to January of 1986. Yeah. So let's do that here in our time machine. January of 1986 is where we'll start. And we'll start with a married couple.

Let's talk about them. All right. Let's get into that. We have Sharon and Ricky Goddard. Yeah. So Ricky Goddard, by the way, sounds like a race car driver. He does. If you heard Ricky Goddard won the Daytona 500 this year, you'd be like, oh, man, yeah, that sounds right.

That's just what you'd say. That sounds right. It just does. Who won Talladega? Yeah, Ricky Goddard. Okay. Eminem's car, right? I know him.

Yeah, I know him. Yeah, what's he got? Like some Tide or some shit on there? Whisk? I don't know what the hell he's doing. It's a Cascade car, car right it's always some household product it really is so uh i'd like one one car to be sponsored by like you know tricky dicks dildos or something just a a giant pink dildo with like a clit tickler on it and everything right right on the hood of the car just a porn hub car whole thing that's just the porn hub logo though i mean what the hell is that that's nothing you jizz.com logo that's there you go you jizz at least it says jizz i mean

porn hub whatever but i want that sponsored by that and tricky dicks dildos so those are his two sponsors it's just a disgusting car the interior is always sticky no one knows why or it's slippery neither slippery either sticky slippery depends on what time of day and i want him using words like that when he wins you know today's track was was uh slippery but we got her in there it was a it was a sticky moist kind of track if that makes sense to put those two things together but it was it was it was a had a musky overtone to it the whole day friction all day uh just burning rubber just burning rubbers if you know what i mean just uh burning rubbers up boy we got a real chap there at the end but we really really came through

but uh you know what in the end we accomplished our goal we filled the gap and uh got inside her the whole team everybody this is for all of us we all did it together the whole team came together if you know what i mean there at the end so sharon and ricky goddard yeah shockingly ricky is not a race car driver no whatever And Ricky Goddard. Yeah. Shockingly, Ricky is not a race car driver. No? Whatever.

They've been married about 10 years. He had aspirations, didn't he? You know he did at one point. At some point, he had to. Just based on his name alone, he had to put a helmet on and be like, I'm meant for this. It's my destiny. He just grew out of it, maybe. So they're both 32 years old in 1986. They've been married about 10 years.

They have an eight-year-old daughter. So, you know, typical married. You know that life. You know the life. It's a grind, and they're doing it. And they do. They grind, too, because they work different shifts, which is never easy. Ricky owns a glass company called Wholesale Glass with three other partners.

So that's his day job. It's in Paw Paw. And then he's also, according to this newspaper, a popular local musician as well. So, you know, Ricky Goddard, he's going out on Friday night to do his bar gig, buddy, and he is popular. Damn it. Come on, Ricky. You know what I mean? Ricky, play Hold Out Loosely again, Ricky. Come on.

Come on, man. Play the All the Brothers again. Stop asking for that. I told you it's Run Around Sue again. He's doing doo-wop. I'm doing a 50s Dion block right now.

I'm doing an Italian doo-wop i'm doing a 50s dion block right now i'm doing a i'm doing an italian doo-wop block at the moment so uh anyway ricky goddard he's going out he's playing on the friday night in the in the bars and he's uh and he's owning a glass business during the day. Sounds like a 32 years old, eight year old kid, wife at home. Sounds decent. Sharon works for Kellogg's Cereal. Great. As do the rest of the characters in the story. They all work at the Kellogg's factory. Everybody making that special K.

It's pretty awesome, honestly. I don't know if everyone knows this or not, but I'm a cereal lunatic. Yeah. What do I have? You know people that are into sneakers and shit like that. James is into cereal. Cereal and sneakers are really my two vices, and that's kind of what it is. I like to get different sneakers, and I like cereal.

And cereal is a great thing to be into because it's like $4 a box, number so you can actually acquire the ever yeah it's you don't have to like lust over something you can just go buy it it's like oh it's 469 and it's not like a mile at the grocery store easy peasy you don't have to like save up or go to an auction or anything you just get it it's easy so i get like i have like 30 boxes of cereal at once, and I eat them all, too. That's the thing. I love cereal. So one thing I got to say about Kellogg's, though. Yeah. And I like Kellogg's. I like your products a lot.

Yeah. There's a bunch of them that I really like. A ton of them. I mean, it's one of the biggies. It might be the top cereal brand of cereals I buy. It might be, yeah. I will say this. Raisin brand, Kellogg's, you know what? I'm going to be the first to say it. It might be, yeah. brand yeah and this is just going to happen the flakes and the raisins are not the same weight

no so in shipping it's all going to go now you can shake the box around even though you're going to forget to but you still you shake the box around you can even it out but over the course once you open the bag you can't shake the box anymore no it's over that's it all taken is done it's stuck and those every time you take it out and put it back you're going to get your raisins settling so at the end you're just going to have a bowl of raisins is basically what happens it's just too many fucking raisins i understand even when you even it out james a bowl of raisin bran once you put milk on it the raisins go to the fucking bottom it's yeah you have to find them six ten bites are all right they're all raisins and it's too many raisins it's just too many i get two scoops it's a nice slogan it's you know it's the sun holding the scoop of raisins in each hand for some reason he has arms that's fine yeah but you know what it

doesn't practically it doesn't work two can i go over two smaller scoops of raisins how about that i'm shocked that you like that one anyway that is maybe the uh shittiest breakfast cereal i like i don't know why i've always, I like cereal, dude. I like, there's a ton I like. What's the cereal with the raisins that are coated in like almonds and shit? Fucking Raisin Nut Bran. It's amazing. That shit is rad.

It's so good. Raisin nuts and they have slivers of almonds in them. So good. Oh, God. I love Raisin Nut Bran. That one I can deal with. I love Raisin Nut Bran. Those Raisin Nuts, put as many of those in as you want.

Oh, yeah. Raisins coated in nuts. I don't care. Make half the fucking box of those. That's great. I'll that's great i'll deal with that makes does kellogg's make basic four or is that general mills i don't know who i think that might be general mills either way i love that one too but again with the the fruity shit that's in it your last six bites are are cranberry pieces dates and almonds that's it oh you know what else I'd like to request from them? Yeah. Okay, Kellogg's makes both Apple Jacks and Fruit Loops, correct?

Yeah. Yes. Okay, number one, fluorescent blue Fruit Loop, not needed. We don't need that. What fucking fruit is that color? Every other color you have is an identifiable fruit color, except for that. So now when I eat them, I have to pick them all out and put them in a separate bag because I feel weird wasting them.

And at the end, I have a big Ziploc bag full of blue fucking Froot Loops I don't want to eat and I have to go Sarah do you want blue Froot Loops and she's like not really and then they end up getting thrown out so thanks for that. Is it supposedly blue raspberry because of that trend from 1998? Fluorescent

blue? Nothing is that color and on top of that I don't need green Apple Jacks as well. Does a blue raspberry even exist? I don't fucking know. Maybe somewhere in nature on an island in some exotic place, but not in my kitchen. So no, it doesn't exist. Outside of a slush puppy, it shouldn't exist.

I haven't seen that in the fucking grocery store. No, fluorescent blue raspberries. Excuse me, produce director. Where are the blue raspberries, please? That's what I would like. Oh, I know they don't exist. Nevermind. Never heard of them? All right. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community.

Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro,

who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot,

and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody

who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max,

starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er

lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Speaking of too many raisins, she might agree with you because she has to lift these raisins. agree with you because she has to lift these raisins she uh she operates a forklift sharon does forklift operator graveyard shift my god six months pregnant oh dear christ so put those stats all in a row women can't be president james forklift graveyard six months add that all together and you get i can't i can't do that job now as a 40 year old fit man that equals you get home at six in the morning and you are not a happy person probably eight hours ago she wasn't a happy person yeah and he's still up from the gig the night before telling you about it oh it was magic crowd was great so i had 8 12 beers i was in my happy place you're not you're not gonna believe it

no it's not all they just kept screaming more more more and we just kept playing it was amazing we just got done just got done it was wild not a woman with a nary a bra in the building by the time we were done playing all up on the stage boy it was wonderful how's your night you well the honey smacks got caught in the fucking forklift thing and i couldn't when i picked up the pallet it just tipped over you know my pregnant brain because i'm so sleepy already i turned right when i should have turned left yeah hit a whole fucking uh a whole row of other cereal. It's all on the floor now. I just dropped the keys and I walked out.

I couldn't do it. I couldn't pick up the pallet of Frosted Flakes. And normally they're great, but tonight they just were a sumbitch and they wouldn't get on the goddamn forklift. So I said, fuck you, Tony, and I'm out of here. It's still running. It's still running.

They're still half on. So, shockingly, the marriage isn't going great. Yeah. And it's not for these reasons. These reasons are kind of the, eh, we'll put it this way. You can't tell what came first, the chicken or the egg, and why they're a miserable thing here. One reason may be is that Goddard here, Sharon Goddard admitted to everybody including her husband that she had an affair with a guy at work like just recently it's we're talking we're in like January

86 this is like the end of 85 they had an affair um the husband knew of it but didn't know who it was and somebody that she works with she wouldn't get Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it was, you know, the honey smack frog or what. But somebody there had a problem. She said that she also says, though, tells people that her husband also had an affair. But she didn't know who he had an affair with either. So. Wow. They're just drifting apart.

And the problem is, too, is they don't see each other at all. They work separate shifts and they don't see each other at all they work separate shifts and they don't see each other so in the hallway as one goes to bed and the other goes to work that's the thing it's not a you know not really a decent marriage uh i guess her and her affair ended in the fall of 85 the end of 85 like early december um she says that her and this guy though uh exchanged christmas gifts this year, but we don't know if that's true as we'll find out later. Um, she also said that she told one of her friends, the baby she's carrying couldn't,

couldn't be, uh, this guy at works because he had a vasectomy five years beforehand. So it can't be his. So I don't know if she doesn't know whose it is or what but there's issue as to who's the father of this baby um he she said of this guy at work afterwards that we were uh we were friends more than anything else always she said except for when we were fucking and then it was a different story but we were friends you know outside of that all right i don't know why that just sounds better coming out of a woman's imagine if a guy said that he'd We were friends, you know, outside of that. All right. I don't know why that just sounds better coming out of a woman's. Imagine if a guy said that.

He'd be like, I mean, we were friends mostly. We'd be like, get the fuck out of here. Friends mostly. You've been trying to fuck her since you met her, you idiot. I mean, when my dick wasn't in her, we were very good friends. And then luckily she would let me be inside of her once in a while. And then we were less friendly, but somehow more friendly at the same time so she um she even had opened up her own checking account because her husband they had like a kind of an anticipation of a divorce coming up almost like like someday

you're gonna need to know how to do this type of thing. Like he was preparing her. Change a tire or something. Yeah, for like an inevitable, like she's going to college or something. So right here you write the dollar amount. Then down here, in all words, you got to write it out. Write it out. Let me show you how to hold your keys in a parking lot in case anybody comes up behind you. So he tells her that, yeah, he wanted her to learn how to manage her finances.

so he tells her that, yeah, he wanted her to learn how to manage her finances. Uh, they used to argue about money and they're also that their work schedules were kept them apart all the time. So that's, that was their main source of contention is we don't see each other ever and you know,

we need money. So that's every couple argues about money because I mean, everybody could use more money. It's, there's very few people it's a very small percentage of people sitting around going you know what i i wouldn't even take a raise if it was offered to me i'm just feeling great right now thank you boss but no thank you i have everything i need as a matter of fact i'm pretty good i mean everybody wants more

money and if someone works it's not even like first and second shift. It's not even like, oh, she gets home at midnight. If they work graveyard to day shift, those are complete. Literally, he's getting up when she's getting home. That's not going to work out well at all because then she's going to be sleeping in the evening, and so it's not going to work for anybody. going to be sleeping in the evening and he's so it's not going to work you know for anybody so i guess they had discussed divorce about a year earlier in early 1985 and um she sharon said that they'd been arguing a lot and uh it seemed like their differences were never going to be worked

out basically seems like if they both had a job on the same shift that would probably that'll start yeah that'll start fixing things well let's give you a chance we both have jobs on the same shift that pay a little more than we make right now then all of our problems are fixed i mean everybody would like that but i mean i i don't know if that was the problem or if maybe if they would have got had spent more time together they would have been divorced sooner though you never know that's the other thing yeah some people time apart's the only thing that keeps them together. Right. Like, it's a totally common thing that, like, pro athletes, they'll be married for 14 years, their career's over, and within six months they're divorced because they go home.

The wife's like, hey, you're not usually here. You're really annoying. And then he's like, I thought I liked you more. And then they're just like, the two of them don't like each other. Didn't Nelson Mandela do that, too? I don't. Got out of prison and was like i'm free no i'm not i thought i was free and then i fucking had to argue with you all the time as a man you know what home to this shit yeah i gotta come home for this pull a henry hill on it so um yeah they they were arguing a lot and uh she said right around the time they were discussing divorce is when she met uh the young man at work named richard ekstein who she was

gets involved with so uh richard ekstein so uh dickie x over here she likes uh she likes ricky's ricky yeah because i mean he could yeah they're both richards i guess well he was richard her husband's richard too so oh yeah they're both i guess richard he goes by ricky though so or maybe they named him ricky i don't fucking know so anyway maybe she started calling him ricky because to tell her and uh her husband and her and her fling apart possibly i need to start calling you ricky now why i can't tell you i can't tell you it's just trust me it's better it's gonna be better for everybody now he's 29 years old so he's three years younger than them um he also works for kellogg yeah and

he is a he works for kellogg's and he's um some sort of supervisor in the warehouse or something. Oh God. So that's who she's hooking up with here. Um, it, uh, it ended, like I said, in January. Um,

I guess a friend of, of Eckstein's said that they, uh, that Eckstein told him that it ended in early January where she said it ended in like late November, early December. So that's, that's the only thing his friend here Robert Graves who rents the apartment to him and has known him for a long

time he said he noticed about 10 days after Christmas of 85 that the gifts that Eckstein had in his apartment under his tree intended for Sharon were still there all wrapped and sitting under the tree so there's still presents under the tree 10 days after Christmas. That's an issue. So that's why I said she said they exchanged Christmas gifts that year, even though they had broken up. And it's like, well, why did he have Christmas gifts 10 days later then? So I don't know why that doesn't line up.

When Graves asked Eckstein about the gifts, I guess Eckstein told him that Sharon had ended their relationship already. And that's why he hadn't given them to her. He said that she gave she told him that she was pregnant and she intended to divorce her husband and that she wanted to divorce her husband. And she's pregnant. And I guess she's building a new house. so she doesn't want to be involved with him. That was what she said. So, I mean, not enough time. I got a lot of things going on.

I got a divorce. Things are happening real fast. I'm all knocked up, may or may not be yours. I also got to meet with the contractor, so no time for this. I'm balancing timetables with permits, so I got to get out of here. So that's what Graves said. Now, a different person here, Kim Peace, who was 15 years old at the time, she was a babysitter and at one point lived with Sharon and Ricky.

I don't know if she's like a family. She's 15. So, I mean, I don't know if she's like had like trouble at home or something. And they were like, well, you can stay with us and like babysit. I don't know what the deal was. But either way, they took in a teenage girl at one point. I guess it's a nice thing to do. So at one point, this kid asked Sharon or Sharon told this kid she was pregnant.

And so this kid, Kim, asked Sharon who the father was and who's the father? Because she knows. Why does a 15 year old know that that's a question to be asked? That's what I'm saying. Really, who's the dad? I'm married, asshole. So who do you think it is? That's how open this affair is, though.

It's even the 15 year old live in babysitters like, oh, is that guy you're banging or the other one? That is fascinating. But I guess at this point, Sharon told the babysitter that it was Eckstein's baby, not Ricky's baby. She said it's Richard Eckstein's baby. So, yeah. eckstein's baby so yeah um but also uh the the landlord there eckstein's friend graves said that eckstein told him that he'd undergone a vasectomy about five years beforehand so you know um yeah but that's a that's a 1980s uh uh vasectomy yeah who knows how well that shit even worked a couple could get through.

So, Eckstein- The vasectomy in the 1980s, they trimmed your hair and trimmed your toenails and then told you to shave and we're like, now you don't have any testosterone in there because we cut all the- Be careful. Proteins out of your hairs, proteins out of your nails, and also we're going to kick you in the balls. By the way, don't eat any chicken. Right.

Whatever the fuck so uh Eckstein uh tells everybody he admits that he did have an affair with Sharon and all that sort of thing but he was also in a bunch of other relationships at the same time Eckstein so this wasn't his only this wasn't even his whole night you know what I mean like he got a vasectomy just to go out and fuck his brains out. Well, he got a vasectomy at like 24. That's very young to get a vasectomy. Like most doctors won't even do a vasectomy that young unless you already have four kids and you're 24.

You know what I mean? They won't. Strange. It's very strange. So let's enter another character here into this mix. And that is a man named norman woodman z which does that name sound familiar it does because we had a woodman z before michael woodman z this is our second woodman z in a story michael woodman z was the young man i believe it

was rhode island okay where oh yeah his dad was a cop and he killed that kid and he kept the kid's skull in a box on his dresser for years and all that shit while the whole town searched for him. They never searched the cop's house and that's where the body was. That was a Woodman Z. That dude was disturbed as fuck by the way. Go back and listen to that episode because that was

crazy. So anyway, this guy, Woodman Z's 47 so he's about 15 years older than sharon and uh ricky and uh you know even older than that more than that of extine um now i did a little what i could find on his background his family at one point in the 60s had a sawmill in hastings which remember we found in the town report there's a lot of sawmills there. It was called Woodman Z brothers sawmill. So at one point he worked there in like the sixties. I also found to give you an idea of how smooth this guy is in 1957, a newspaper report of

cars driven. This is the, this is the story quote cars driven by three different woodman z's were involved in an accident one with each other his whole family seven people were hospitalized holy shit in a three-car all-family battle royale uh the sheriff said that Gerald Woodmansey, who was 18, he had traveling, had passed a pickup truck driven by his cousin, Norman Woodmansey. So they passed each other. They're the same age and started to pass another car when he failed to see a fourth vehicle approaching from the west and hit it nearly uh head-on the oncoming car was driven by james woodman z 16 years old norman's little brother so he got in a head-on collision with his own little brother that's fucking oh no i'm sorry the other guy richard

the guy gerald's little brother yeah g Gerald got into one with Norman's brother. So he's like, hi. And then he's like, I'm going to kill your brother now and run into him. So this is fucking ridiculous. Norman pulled to the right side of the road to avoid the two cars already taking up the center highway, hit an embankment, and his pickup truck flipped over. What a bad day to be a woodman Z. Jesus Christ, man. this is fucking hilarious um

uh let's see uh gerald how did they all wind up within feet of each other hitting each other with cars that is unbelievable have you ever imagine getting in a three-car pile up all members of your family not even on purpose you weren fighting. You just happened to see each other. We just all wound up on the same road at the same time. It's unbelievable. So seven people ended up in the hospital because of this shit, which is wild. Norman ended up being fine. He was like the least injured of everybody somehow, Norman.

Now, like we said, they work at kellogg's and so does norman norman works under richard eckstein okay so he worked he's his you know uh eckstein's his supervisor yeah they all worked there um now sharon described later on described norman woodman z as a fellow employee someone you say hi to. And, you know, that's kind of it. He worked in the machine shop under Eckstein. And, yeah. And apparently Eckstein would hang out with a lot of the people he worked with and worked like his subordinates.

He'd hang out with them. They'd all go to the bar, you know, after their shift or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And but apparently Woodman z wasn't really part of that he didn't really hang out with him i don't know if that's because he's 15 years older than him too which is you know if it's a bunch of guys who are in their late 20s early 30s and this guy's 47 doesn't really fit in with the crowd you know yeah maybe that's what it is

he's busy uh beating the shit out of his family uh. He's out looking for revenge on the streets right now. He's driving a pickup truck looking for a cousin to hit head on with it. Yeah, I guess they didn't socialize outside the office, is basically that. One of the co-workers said, quote, Richard

didn't seem to have a personal friendship with Norman. That's how this is all set up uh then january 25th 1986 comes around and uh this is the uh the goddards live at 9865 gird road gird gird g-r-u-d gird it sounds like it if it's not it should be i think it is i'm pretty sure that's a disease where like it something to do with your lungs or something. You can GERD your loins. You can do that, too.

So either way, they're on GERD here. Now, Sharon comes home from her 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. shift that day. Gets home. She's six months pregnant at this point in time she's got a yellow 80s maternity outfit like a yellow jumper thing and a white blouse on yeah basically just wrapped me in cloth i'm pregnant it was the 80s put me in cotton all the yeah and make it i don't care three four five sizes too big I'll fucking grow into it. And if not, you know, whatever.

Like, that was the 80s maternity style. Now they have, like, real clothes that pregnant women could wear. But back then it was like, I don't know, put this fucking sack on you. Hide that shit, you pig. There you go. No one wants to look at that. That's what it was. Like, there you go.

Now they, like, cut extra cloth for, like like all the areas that expand it's awesome yeah now they have things that like you like where the like they cut out the belly part and they can like stick it out and like look at my stomach so it's just a different vibe i don't give a shit either way so uh clever text on it yeah something here's my you know whatever the fuck all i wanted was a back rub or some future coffee partner or some bullshit like that so out of me so that i can have coffee no shit so the front door this morning is open when she gets home she says like all the way wide open the storm door you know the screen door with the windows in it so storm door is wide open and all the lights in the double wide are on really so yeah they live in a

double wide mobile home and all the lights are on in the trailer so um yeah uh she says and on her recollection quote i went inside and called my husband's name. I called twice. It was still, so still in there. There was no answer. She said then, as she walked in, she looked around, and when your eyes adjust to morning light, if it's bright outside, your eyes adjusting to the trailer, even though there's lights on in there, it's a different light. She said then she started to notice that there was a lot of blood on the walls. Oh, boy. On the walls. On the walls, like spattered on the walls. Oh, boy. On the walls. On the walls, like spattered on the walls, which is a bad sign usually.

That's, you know, most accidents don't leave a lot of noticeable spatter. It's not a nosebleed. Exactly. He didn't cut himself while he was slicing tomatoes or anything. Or neck shaving. Nothing. I was cutting up my jeans for friday night's gig right i was making you know i want to get some some fray dangling you know what i mean and

boy i get my finger flopped off my pinky um she said at that point she looked down and saw her husband's body on the living room floor kind of right between the living room and the kitchen she saw ricky down there and uh there was a lot of blood she says quote i froze and i screamed i couldn't touch him there was blood all over i remember his face he was staring yeah that's that's a that's a dead body shit and um when we find out later on uh basically what uh what happened him, it would have looked really rough and you wouldn't want to touch it. He got shot close range with a shotgun to the back of the head. My God.

So, yeah, there's not going to be 100% of that head remaining at that point. So that's not something you'd want to touch probably. I can understand that. No. So she said she went to the bedroom after that to call the operator and ask for the sheriff's department. And, you know, somebody please come out here. And I guess Detective Ken DeMott of the Berry County Sheriff's Department, he said he arrived at the home pretty much immediately. You know, first, not a lot of murders going on in this area of the country at 630 in the morning.

So if somebody calls one in, you'll jump right on it. Not a big backlog. Fairly enough, I'm not busy right now. He's like, I've been waiting for this. Great. Put down his bagel and he ran. He said, and also he said when he got there that Goddard, that Ricky was lying face down in the kitchen with a massive wound to the head.

So she would have saw the massive wound. Yeah. It wasn't like he was laying on the wound or something like that. Now, the detective said he found no sign of forced entry at all here. So he asked if Sharon, asked Sharon, is there anything missing? Anything I should be looking for here? You know, do you see anything obviously missing? What valuables do you have that I should be looking for around the house?

And she said to look for Ricky's wallet, check for a jewelry box. There's a mink coat in the house. What? A mink coat, apparently. It's a mink coat. You ever hear of putting lipstick on a pig yeah i think the other i think that's an alternate for putting mink coat on a trailer i think is what that is wow if you have a mink coat that is worth like that's worth months of rent in a house right

i'm getting at those are like 12 grand yeah your priorities are fucked basically at that point and i'm not saying i hate when people are like, I hate when people are like, people saying they're broke while they got a phone and a TV. It's like, oh, yeah, they got food. They're eating and then complaining and they don't have enough money. It's like, yeah, they could be. TVs are pretty cheap and stuff like that.

None of those things. People saying they broke and they drove here. Yeah. Yeah, it was like they got a car and they drove. I saw them leave a McDonald's eating food. None of those things add up to the cost of a mink coat. A mink coat is very expensive. It is what we're saying.

That's that's a lot. That's a that's an extravagant purchase that once you have everything else in life, you're like, you know what else I need? A ridiculously expensive coat. I have all the houses and cars I could possibly want just trust funds are loaded up for the kids you own something like that uh and you leave the house and you feel like a million bucks and then you walk back through that door wearing that jacket you gotta that's really gotta settle you right down that's what i mean i've never ever been in a position in my life where i'm like i think it's mink coat time i've never never been there. I'm not even close to there. I'm nowhere near mink coat time in my life, in my financial life.

I really hope mink coat time comes. I'd love to at some point be in the market for a mink coat, but it's not on the horizon anytime soon. No, we don't know, too. She could have inherited this coat. They could have. I mean, her grandmother could have. We have no idea what's going on here.

Her grandma may have been in mink coat time, and she bequeathed it. That's what I'm saying. We have no clue going on here. Her grandma may have been in mink coat time and she bequeathed it. That's what I'm saying. We have no clue what happened here. But it's funny to say there's a mink coat in a holiday rambler. Yeah, that's how it works. And she said also check for a checkbook and a diamond ring as well. So these are the main valuables in the house. So these are the main valuables in the house.

Now, they found the checkbook and they found the diamond ring. What they didn't find were the wallet that's missing and the jewelry box is gone, too. Jewelry box is gone. Mink coat is there. Mink coat there. Only thing their only thing jewelry box and um and wallet are the only thing's gone everything else is there including a payroll check and a bank bag containing 101 dollars like one of those zip up bank bags and uh a television is in the house a stereo a vcr which in the 80s that was the height of technology if

you had you could sell a mink coat yeah you could sell a vcr on the street for crack for a hundred dollars in the 80s that's how much vcrs were worth they were gold you i i would you'd rather have a vcr than its weight in gold in the 80s it was worth that much so um also a vase that contained cash like uh you know like people i guess throw their uh change i guess they threw singles and fives or something in there to save up i don't know what the hell they're doing so they're doing great that's all sitting there around the house so it doesn't seem like a uh if it's a robbery it's a pretty shittily done one they got a wallet and a jewelry box and left a lot of other valuables around and doesn't seem like they really looked for them. Which, after you've shot a shotgun, though, you probably want to get the fuck out of Dodge pretty fast.

I would assume a shotgun inside a trailer is going to be loud. Oh, boy. Like, it's going to reverberate outside because it's not the same insulation as a house. There might be a window or some paneling falling off the outside that's a lot of pressure coming out man it's gonna fall off its wheels man it's a lot that's what i mean it's a lot of pressure so um anyway uh uh she also he said that a few days later the detective said that sharon phoned him to ask him if a wedding band and a gold necklace had been found on ricky's body as well and the detective said that he did not have that on him when he died when they took him in so he said that um the detective said first

thought for it was it's a it's a robbery didn't go the way that they wanted it to go they shot him grabbed what the fuck they could which was his jewelry you know his jewelry on him his necklace his wedding ring his wallet out of his pocket you see a jewelry box sitting on something you see the box you just grab it quick and run but didn't have time to really search the place so that's that's how the detectives are thinking it went down at this moment in time. So the medical examiner said he died. Ricky died pretty much instantly, they said, from this. It was a shotgun blast fired from about five feet away from his left side into the back of his head. Oh, dear Christ.

So that's the spot to do it, I guess, if you want to. My word. If you were going to fletch the situation and hire somebody to do that to you, if you wanted to take yourself out i guess that's the spot to do it so uh the doctor at the blodgett memorial hospital in grand rapids he performed the autopsy and said that the position of the blood spots in the house indicate that someone moved the body prior to police arriving at the scene. That is not the original location of the body, is what the police say. So, that's something to consider, because why the fuck would you move a body to that spot? Right.

If you're robbing the place. Wouldn't you just shoot, grab what you can, and get the hell out? I don't know why you'd bother moving. And he was killed pretty much instantly. They said, so it wasn't like he was shot and then crawled six feet and died. He was dead before he hit the ground. So,

you know, how does he move basically? So, um, uh, anyway, uh, that Sharon also said that once Eckstein heard what happened,

he called her to console her about her husband's death. So very nice of him. Very nice of him. Now, doesn't seem like a lot of evidence here. And but the police are finding certain things. And we'll talk about all that because on February 18th, 1986, less than a month later, by the way, the same time, pretty much that Norman Woodman Z quits the Kellogg company, he quits Kellogg's and pretty much right then he is charged by the police with murder of Ricky Goddard. Oh, and conspiracy to commit murder as well.

OK, he conspire with. That's the thing. okay to conspire with that's the thing um now his attorney says that he doesn't understand the conspiracy charges because no one else has been charged so he said they'll probably drop this conspiracy charges against my client because they haven't they haven't named any conspirators that's uh how is that a fucking thing uh the judge said though that there was probable cause to bind norman over on the murder and conspiracy charges. The judge said that the evidence presented showed that Woodman Z was hired to do the killing, which implied the complicity of someone else and therefore a conspiracy.

So like he didn't know this guy and had no reason to kill him. So, you know what I mean? That's basically what the judge said. It looks like there's a conspiracy of some kind or there's at least enough evidence of that. But Woodman's attorney said that he thinks the conspiracy charge conspiracy charges a ploy on the prosecutor's part, quote, hoping Norman will roll over on the other two is what the this, according to this attorney. So clearly he knows more than we do, this attorney. The attorney also says that he believes that it will be the conspiracy charge will not be maintained. Quote, how could a man conspire with himself? That's what he said, which really is a great quote that doesn't really have an answer. He says that he would not now say that, you you know he doesn't know what he's going to do because he has to see what the charges do he said though i can't imagine them charging him with unindicted co-conspirators that would be fucking crazy he insists that woodman z is innocent of

the murder and believes that other evidence found at the scene of the crime bears that out and we'll talk about all this shit here uh now what ends up happening though is like the next day they charge sharon goddard and richard eckstein with murder and conspiracy to commit murder whoa okay that's that's uh how this is unfolding so they're arrested they're charged with murder and conspiracy sh Sharon's attorney said that the missing $200 from the wallet, a jewelry box, and a gold necklace worth $600, that's the motive. There's robbery. Why would she? Yeah.

They're like, clearly it's a robbery, and they're charging the man's wife. This is crazy. This is crazy. Now, the friend of Eckstein's, Robert Graves, the landlord there, he said that two other men, that Eckstein and two other men went snowmobiling on January 24th for the whole weekend. So Eckstein wasn't even around. Eckstein was off snowmobiling on the night of the 24th and the morning of the 25th. So it's a great alibi. He couldn't have shot anybody. And another witness from Kellogg's, an employee named Irene Cook, she says that she saw Sharon Goddard make a phone call from a pay phone at the Kellogg plant plant there at about one or two a.m. The morning of the 25th.

And when she got off the phone, appeared to be crying. Oh, so, yeah. why would she make a pay phone call and cry and then when she was asked about that she's like i don't know what you're talking about i don't know anything about that so it's not like oh my sister called and you know she just lost the baby or something like none of that happened it was you know something else sharon is six months pregnant those six months pregos uh tend to cry a lot six months pregnant and you're going back to work at two in the morning to get back on the forklift maybe it's just that you're right she has to cry she's like listen you're like why are you crying she's like

look i cry a lot you understand which time which fucking time my husband won't stop playing the allman brothers i got a lot to cry about all right surprise i'm not crying right now that's i any second it could happen really i don't need much so they uh they believe the police's theory here is that norman woodman z discussed the killing directly with richard eckstein but they didn't know if woodman z discussed it directly with sharon goddard they were trying to figure that out but either way if there was through eckstein they assume goddard was involved right assume eckstein didn't take it upon himself to just do this so they said that um they're

saying though at this point they you know they don't know if they need somebody to flip on somebody because they don't really have a lot of evidence now what they did find this is uh they found a cigarette butt and a crumpled cigarette pack on the floor of the trailer of the goddard residence um right near the body of ricky why do they always leave their cigarettes i never understand that i don't you know how many times in murder cases cigarettes have been a fucking key identifier? They always show up. Even if it's just to eliminate people or, oh, that's his brand, so now he's in the world. You know, like things like that. It comes up so much.

Just stop. Don't smoke while you're murdering people. I get that it's a stressful time and you want to light up. Wait until you're done. Take out some cigarette. Yeah. Pretend you're in a restaurant. You know what I mean?

Yeah, you want to smoke before the dessert and after're in a restaurant you know what i mean yeah you want to smoke before the dessert and after the meal but you know what you're gonna wait till after the meal and you're gonna go outside and smoke on the way to your car do it that way fucking lazy bastards they gotta smoke there it's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast morbid we're your hosts i'm alina urquhart and i'm ash kelly and our show is part true crime part spooky and part comedy the stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor.

I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a little bit of cursing. This motherfucker lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.

Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those

close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. So they were found there. The problem is that neither Norman Woodman Z, Ricky Goddard, nor Sharon Goddard smoke cigarettes. None of them do. So that's an issue. Someone there was smoking a cigarette.

Obviously, there's a fucking cigarette put out. So it's not even just like a pack was stuck to the bottom of somebody's shoe or something. It was a fresh butt put out and a fucking pack of cigarettes. So now a blood analysis. The Woodman Z is talking about getting a saliva analysis on the cigarette. But this is pre available DNA, though. DNA at this point was really in its infancy. They did the sequencing but they could narrow it

down to a certain amount of people but it wasn't like it's definitely you. We looked at it and your cousin did it. Sorry, we figured it out. They can just run it through a machine and be like, you have a cousin named Steve? Yeah, he did it. We ran it through. Steve did it definitely.

Whereas they don't have that then. We ran it through and we see that the person has hazel eyes and his name is Steve. So, I mean, do you know anybody that says he's pretty handsome? So, you know anybody like that? Good with the ladies? We ran it through and here's his social security number. So, drives a 2006 kia right yes so the they said it's so fucking amazing it really blows your mind how specific it is but back then even to test that would destroy the sample yeah and then you wouldn't get anything anyway so a lot of times they would hold on to evidence like this and not test it even though that might mean more likely of a

conviction now, just because they're waiting for the technology to develop, hopefully, and maybe in five years you can use it for an appeal. That's something in the beginning of DNA that defense attorneys really had to think about. Like, if they destroy this and it's inconclusive, I'm fucked. I have no other, then we got nothing uh yeah they said that he said the lawyer the results may be inconclusive and you know there's that and he also said quote only a portion of the population secrete blood cells into their saliva because they're not looking at DNA sequencing off saliva back then in 86 they're looking at blood typing yeah they're looking at it back in the day like when they'd find semen somewhere and they'd be like he's a secretor he's a type a secretor you know i wish that wasn't what they called that by

the way isn't that gross sounds so disgusting and it means that you essentially have blood in your jizz which is also gross not it's not blood but it's your blood type will get into there so it's disgusting you'd think like oh that the explanation of it can't be as bad as the word sounds and you're like no it's kind of worse that's kind of worse makes it sound like your cock is always dripping but what it is that your cock is always dripping with your bloody jizz with your bloody jizz so you know you feel better now i hope you feel better now uh another thing that they found here is that they could not the police say that their crime lab says they can't be certain that tire tracks outside the goddard home

uh from the morning of the killing so they found there was tire tracks there fresh tracks they can't match them to woodman z's car um at all they don't match woodman z's car so another thing is they find no fingerprints in the home that belong to him as well which i mean their case is garbage you can wear gloves but still they have they have they have more negative evidence than positive evidence they have more negative evidence than positive evidence. They have more evidence of his innocence than guilt at this point. Their only evidence of guilt is people talking, whereas they have nobody smoking and there's cigarettes there, car tire tracks. This is ballsy going forward. It's pretty ballsy.

And they weren't sure that the shotgun shells, the lab wasn't sure because shotguns are hard to do ballistics on. That's why people like to use them. That's why you use them, right. Omar on the wire, that was his thing. He'd make his own. Pumpkin balls. Pumpkin balls. There you go.

So they weren't sure, based on the science, that the shotgun shells found in Woodman Z's home matched the shell fragments found at the murder scene. So they have essentially zero physical evidence against him whatsoever. If anything, they have exculpatory physical evidence on him. That's what they have. They have chatter and a bunch of shit that literally excludes him. So it's not too great at this point. So they look into into a little more and um apparently they find a couple life insurance insurance policies for ricky goddard

at this point they find one conveniently that was upgraded from fifty thousand dollars to one hundred thousand dollars on december 15th only about 40 days before the murder. Convenient as fuck. That's really interesting. And the beneficiaries apparently were Sharon and her daughter there. So they also found the insurance company. They say they were asking about, it was a weird thing, they were talking about whether if she did that, would it have been better for her to do this mortgage thing?

Would that have been, show that she was more guilty? I don't know what the hell it was. So anyway, they said that she filed a $100,000 insurance policy and then she filed to claim it on february 18th oh so she put in to get it and then she became upset when her husband's business partner challenged her assertion that she had a right to 25 of interest in the firm so she was trying to claim all of her husband's shit in february trying to say i want the life insurance and I get my husband's share of the business because he owned 25%? And the partners are saying, you don't get that. That's not in the deal, which that depends on the contract he signed with them when they all went into business.

Some contracts say your shares go to whoever you want them to. Some contracts say if you die, your shares go back with the partners. That's a thing that happens. It's a terrible contract to sign but yeah it's a bad one you should probably never do that if you'd like to protect your family but it's a thing that happens so um they also said that Sharon had arranged for premiums to be paid from her personal bank account and uh at the time and uh she said that she didn't recall the amount of the insurance when asked by investigators.

She said, quote, I thought it was $75,000 for both of us, but it turned out it wasn't that at all. She said they discussed increasing coverage because he was starting a new business and they were building a new home. So they were going to increase coverage because they had a lot more liabilities.

And yeah, so they said that's that's the only reason why she did it so it wasn't just bad timing nothing suspicious planning of a murder no no uh but what they do find is and the police and investigators and prosecutors make a flow chart of phone calls between uh richard eckstein sharon goddard, and basically between them and between the Goddards and a Kellogg company phone, and calls from Kellogg company to Woodman Z's home, charged to Eckstein.

So they find all sorts of shit. Yeah, Goddard and Eckstein talking back from their houses, them going from the Kellogg company to Goddard's house, from Goddard's house to the Kellogg company, and then from the Kellogg company to goddard's house from goddard's house to the kellogg company and then from the kellogg company to woodman z's house too all the time and that's on extine's phone and they don't hang out socially right so they're he didn't call him up on on his night off and be like hey how was the uh how's the bass fishing over the weekend like that's not what's going on putting together a softball team for that tourney down there

festival really need the big guy at first base you know how it works six months away i need to get it get a bug in your ear now start getting in shape pal start doing your stretching now you're stretching so anyway they that's what they have right now they have phone calls from eckstein to him they have kind of this weird very loosely put together web i don't think a spider could hold in this web i think it would break and they'd fall so they also have a witness that they say they say that there's a witness that contacted police after the killings uh and that person said that one of the three suspects told this witness about plans to kill ricky the year before

the previous summer so yes one of these three there uh she said that this person said they didn't take the information seriously until after they found out that ricky was dead yeah and then they were like oh wow um so there's that and we'll reveal who that is in a few minutes here. So March 11th, 1986. Okay, now some charges are going to be dismissed. I'm going to let you guess what charges against who are going to be dismissed. Conspiracy against Woodsy. Woodmanzy. Woodson?

Woodmanzy. Yeah. Okay, you think that one? Yeah. The conspiracy against him? Okay. We're talking all three people here. Any of these charges for everybody. Conspiracy is the only thing that's got a stand are they taking away murder from

everybody well what they do is they wow they drop the murder charges against sharon and extine oh no but hold the conspiracy charges for now which makes no sense because if you think they did one then they're guilty of the other so that would be well that makes no that's like saying i'm charging you for drunk driving but not for plowing into the school bus with your car on the when you were drunk driving yeah the one one holds hands with the other you know what i mean you can't have one without the other so i guess you can conspire to murder and not do it. But if you conspire to murder, you're also guilty of murder. Right.

That's how it works. That's a good point. That's what conspiracy is. Yeah, that's the whole point of the conspiracy. You're fucked, yeah. I guess if you conspire to murder, then there's no body. But this way, there's a body. I don't know.

There's a body. It makes no sense. That's what I mean. It makes no mathematical or legal sense that i can assume here woodman z all charges remain against him hanging on to him hanging on no physical evidence not a thing no no nothing they have a couple of witnesses we'll talk about this is brave this is a really cavalier prosecution here so the uh they end up doing that the court upheld the dismissal, saying that the judge found probable cause that Woodman Z conspired to kill Goddard and then committed the act. So let's bring in a couple of guys on the side here. Yeah.

One is Robert Hyslop, H-Y-S-L-O-P, Hyslop. And the other one is George Zugel, Z-U--e-l high slop and zugel wow that would be that sounds like the worst restaurant in town going a high slop and zugels gross they just fart on your plate and walk away that's that's the only thing they serve there yeah can i get uh two air biscuits and a coke please i'd like the combination blow horn platter please can you really just come over how do you like that good all right then they walk away uh how do you prepare those uh those air biscuits uh they're in the air fryer. Come on down. I prepare them in my ass. What do you think I prepare? So,

oh my God. Now, Hyslop is going to tell authorities that Zougal, Jesus, these names, borrowed a gun from Hyslop on the day of the murder. Of Ricky's murder. Now, Zougal had told Hyslop that he needed the gun to, quote, collect some money for

cocaine. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Now, when Hyslop picked up the gun two days later at Zugal's apartment, he asked Zugal why it had been fired. As you can tell when a gun's been fired. He said, hey, why'd you fire the gun?

And so Zugal said, quote said quote here get rid of this you don't want it okay um hyslop said i asked why and he said quote you don't want to know which is if it's my gun i kind of do you use my gun to murder somebody sir i kind of want to know that yeah how much yeah you don't want to know did you shoot the stop sign at the end of main street or did you murder a human being which thing did you do this is important to tell me um so high slop said later on he ended up throwing the gun into the kalamazoo river at the park that was his way of getting rid of it so he said later on high slop said after learning about the arrests of norman and sharon goddard and extine he asked zugel if woodman z had done the killing he go hey did norman do this

and uh he said high slop said that zugel told him him that Eckstein and Sharon Goddard hired Woodman Z to kill Ricky and that he and Woodman Z were going to split $5,000. That was the deal. Zougal said, look, yeah, he did it and me and Woodman Z are splitting the $5,000. So Woodman Z had to

they approached him to murder and he said, I'll do it. I gotta get a gun. What it i gotta get a gun what yeah gotta get a gun so then he goes to another guy who gets him the gun yeah and apparently he goes to another guy who goes to another guy james yeah but i don't know where woodman z comes i don't know where he comes into this because again you have sharon goddard and ricky ekstein who seem to have a motive especially sharon because there's money involved and all that sort of thing and then you have zugel who has possession of this shotgun picked it up and

dropped it off fired when he dropped it off already and said you quote you don't want to know what happened to it get rid of. And somehow the only person charged with murder is Norman Woodmansey, which I'm like, how the fuck is he the guy charged with murder out of all this? Right. This makes zero sense. There's the least amount of evidence against him. They asked a guy to murder somebody, and he asked a guy if he could borrow a gun from him,

and that guy said, I can't, but I can borrow one from somebody else. Yeah. They had to borrow it from three different people. And then the only person putting Woodman Z in this at this point in time is the guy who had the fucking gun and said that he fired. So, I mean, he would be the guy that you want to look at, not the guy that he said to look at. You're the guy with the gun. I'm going to look at you first. So it makes no sense.

And Hyslop also said that he and Zougal agreed to give a false story that the January 25th call was about Zougal wanting to borrow rent money if it ever came up with the cops. So they did that. Now, I always try to find history on these guys. And I got to gotta say i don't know which zugel this is but i'm hoping it's one of them because these are two totally different people and it's hilarious one zugel i found from the michigan from the same area in michigan was a jockey like a horse jockey he's a horse jockey a A tiny man. A tiny man.

He was owner Ron King. Yeah, the trophy. He won trophies that day, so he was doing that. So that's 1973. Then another one from nearby Lansing, which is not very far, is George Zugel, a light welterweight, a light flyweight fighter. A boxer. A boxer. Now, he could be a jockey and a light flyweight it's possible because you could be like under 120 pounds so either way so i think this is the guy because i don't george zugel in this area

how many can there be double o g l e z u g e. I mean, it just seems like that's the fucking guy. So this guy's had an interesting life, this George Zuegel, and is apparently a tiny athletic man. That's all we know. Who's got guns. That's all we know. Who apparently has access to guns if he borrows them from another guy. Right. So I'll go to you, and you go, yeah, I don't have one, but I can borrow it from my friend.

So now we're three people deep for one gun. yeah i don't have one but i can borrow it from my friend so now we're three people deep and for one gun so now sharon goddard and richard eckstein are named co-conspirators like we said and uh are named in the murder conspiracy and are named but not charged as co-conspirators this is such a strange thing they're named as co-conspirators obviously because woodman z can't have a conspiracy by himself right like his lawyer said but they're not charged as co-conspirators which is fascinating fucking bonkers to me like it seems like you have to charge all those people at the same time or else not at all like right i'm saying yeah because the argument and trial is too easy yeah that's what it is so now they do have evidence here uh the prosecutor says he has evidence that woodman z

talked repeatedly about the killing with co-conspirators and friends and he also bragged about being a hitman as well to people So his whole thing was he goes around telling people that he kills people for money and he's a hit man. And it's just like, that's his brag. Yeah. So that's how he gets laid. Um,

it's fucking weird, man. So the prosecutor before all this says, quote for Eckstein and miss, uh, Mrs. Goddard, it was love or probably more accurately sex.

Mrs. Goddard insurance money. And the defendant woodman z had a motive to obtain money to support his cocaine habit because oh did i mention norman is a big coke head too good as well and uh yeah and they think i think uh they were saying that sharon also dabbled allegedly so there you go now introduce carol Straubel into this mess. Carol Straubel here is she's a friend of Norman's, and she says that Norman told her how and where he'd commit the murder and that he was going to commit the murder of Ricky. He said that long. They also have evidence of long distance phone calls between Eckstein and Goddard nearly

nearly daily leading up to the murder and from what they said is they broke up and were still friends but not together anymore so you don't talk to someone you just broke up every day that's just weird especially if that they're not the father of the baby inside you so um the prosecutor said that uh um basically that they couldn't find any evidence other than sharon saying it that she ever discussed a possible divorce with anybody her mom her siblings nobody didn't say a word to anybody never brought it up but she had said that oh they they were planning on it but she never told us all, which is not probably true. No, that's the most important information in your life. Every person that you see, you discuss it.

Yeah. She told her best friend or sister or mother or whoever. So, yeah. And they said that they didn't weren't even sure. They said the prosecution basically thinks that they never ended their affair. They just said they ended their affair, but never actually did. So Carol Strobel, she says that since she came forward, she was the witness, by the way, who was the secret witness who came forward later. Carol Strobel. She's the one who came forward.

She says that since she came forward, she's been threatened by Norman Woodman Z and his family for possible testimony against them. Norman Woodman Z and his family for possible testimony against them. But Woodman Z's mother, she says that Strobel's just angry because Norman didn't want to marry her. And that's why she's doing all this. That's the, that's the mother. Oh, she's just bitter because my son doesn't want to marry her.

Fucking blah, blah, blah. So this is trashy and hilarious at this point. So, uh, the, the fuck man Strobel told reporters that a body shop owner who changed tires on Woodman's car after Ricky Goddard was murdered and gave her.

Basically, she's saying she was with Woodman's when he got his tires changed out to new tires. That's why they didn't match the tires. Brilliant. That's why they didn't match the tires. Brilliant. That's what she's saying. And she said she'd given her and Woodman Z had told her on February 7th to keep quiet about the tires. Don't tell anybody he got his tires changed, basically, which little things like that will help you get away with murder, by the way. That's smart i was i was reading this one book and they were talking about if ted bundy had just got his teeth fixed or even fucking fucked him up worse or did something so they

couldn't match his bite marks they said that that was like most of the evidence there in florida they like when you talk to the jury like if they didn't have that yeah they wouldn't have convicted him or just so they really didn't have anything else except for piss poor eyewitnesses i saw him at night from the side from 40 feet away for half a second it's him it's got to be him like come on dude like that's that's not a that's not a witness but you know bite marks like that this guy was like that guy in fucking uh red dragon that guy changed his teeth that's what i mean well a lot of people do that or if they're wanted for something like that happened a lot murderers will have all their teeth taken out and have dentures put in they don't give a fuck they're like not me you know they'd rather have

those yeah rather have dentures on the outside than teeth in jail i guess you know the way they look at it so strobel apparently woodman z's mother said that, listen, this Carol lady wanted to marry Norman, but she he refused to marry her and she ended up moving out of his house. And the mother said, quote, he'd been married twice and didn't want any more marriages. That was that. So she was out. other witnesses two young women who lived at woodman z's home in the summer of 1985 said that they heard him talk about killing someone but that they didn't believe him so um a shana chafe said that woodman z told her quote if i wanted to make money all i'd have to do is pull the trigger he said there was a lot of insurance money involved and uh later on this chafe said that he told her he needed money to buy cocaine yeah so that's what they have so

june 1986 they go to trial with this which my god that's some flimsy shit how'd you like to be the prosecutor here no thank you a spurned ex-girlfriend is the only real witness and a dude who had the shotgun. So people who have like, you know, it's not a lot of corroboration is what I'm getting at. So the town, though, is going batshit for this, by the way. They're hearing cocaine, affairs, pregnant, insurance, money, lust, juicy. This is an absolute soap opera here so uh there the newspaper said quote a real life saga of sex murder and money has enthralled this rural southwest michigan community in a way no television miniseries could match that's what's going on here uh marion colvin

who's 67 and works at the ben franklin five dime said, quote, things like this don't happen in our little County. There you go. It did. That's your ass. Uh, this, uh, another person, Mary Warner said, quote, people are rehashing the case, trading information, arguing over who's guilty and who's innocent. They have a whole, this is their OJ trial. That's what it is. One of the people said,

the sensationalism of this trial, its cast of characters, its mystery, and its various elements of sex, drugs, and money really appeal to people. Yeah, those are all the elements. Yeah. And Kellogg's fucking hates it. Oh, Kellogg's like, Jesus Christ.

Now we gotta make spl splatteros we gotta make spatteros now perfect i don't want to make spatteros we don't think they're gonna sell very well so um the one guy here says quote barry county is a small outfit he described a county as an outfit outfit which is hilarious you can't do nothing around here and bang it's all over town you can't do nothing around here and bang it's all over town shotgun murder trial you son of a bitch and bang brains are all over your wall holy shit or you know what there's a cereal with with with little shotgun and brain marshmallows that's how our little brain marshmallows are white what they got little red spots on them.

They're meant to represent drywall taken from the scene. So the trial starts out, and they said they had a huge jury pool, too, that they were going through and everything like that. And Zugal testifies. Zugal needs to testify. I want to know what's up with Zugal here. He he's got to be charged for something here and it'll come but he testifies that the phone call he and woodman z made to robert high slop on january 25th was about borrowing 300 to pay his rent and avoid eviction he testified to this and uh as we remember he didn't say it publicly yet but him and high slop had a little thing there to say hey this this isn't about this it's about that high slop

testified that the show that the call was actually about borrowing a sawed-off shotgun that's so high slop didn't go along with the program he's like i'm not fucking lying he just fucked that guy over because that's perjury babe that's perjury and now you have a shotgun in your hand you just put a shotgun in your hand he put a shotgun in your hand into your head all at once with that shit well you just said he needed money whoops a daisy fucking man zugle also testifies that norman spent the night of the shooting at zugle's apartment and had left twice briefly to make a phone call and to buy beer. So he couldn't have killed anybody.

And Robert Hyslop, he says that Woodman Z had phoned him to talk about some rent money. But that's when they said I'm sorry, that was what the plan to what they were going to say was anyway. So then there's a cellmate as well. Brian Snyder, who's a 20 year old kid here. He testifies that he talked to Woodman Z about Ricky Goddard's murder while they were in the Barry County jail. He says that Woodman Z never actually told him he committed the murder, you know, never actually came out and said it or nothing. him he committed the murder you know never actually came out and said it or nothing but he did mention a three thousand dollar offer to kill goddard and that he quote wouldn't get his money now that they're all in jail okay so but he didn't specifically say that he did anything

so is that he certainly says he's owed money for what and uh snyder also said, Woodman Z told him he only talked to Sharon Goddard, quote, a couple of times there, but that Eckstein was, quote, just a go-between. He was just, you know, I know a guy who's willing to shoot someone in the head if you need me to get a hold of him. He's the middleman to get an eighth of weed. That's all he is. He's the middleman to connect you to three other people that you'll maybe get a gun possibly pay five thousand dollars to unbelievable so this guy says that norman quote he said he was 46 and they were still young he said if he had to he'd take the blame himself okay so he's like they're gonna blame me either way so i'm not gonna fucking snitch on them and still get the same amount i'm fucked i'm older anyway they're you know whatever so um then uh basically they they cross-examined him and they said is that wasn't that just jail talk shit and the guy said nope this is what happened

so they said did you make some kind of deal with the state because obviously you were you know in jail for a reason that's how you got together So did you make some kind of deal on that? He said, nope. And he said, quote, I'd just like to be a good citizen someday. Someday. It's 20. The fuck out of here. Whenever anybody says that, I'm like, bullshit.

Nobody's like, I feel like going to court. Nobody wants to go to court and testify. So unless you're getting something for it, justice in your mind for like a loved one or you're subpoenaed or it'll get you out of trouble. One of the three is the only reason you're going to get involved in this. Otherwise, people generally mind their own business when it comes to court shit. They don't want to get involved. Especially guys in prison. Those guys shut up fast because a snitch in prison is not treated well. And court's a pain in the ass, too, in jail.

They have to take you from one jail to another, transport. You got to wake up at 430 in the morning. It's not an easy thing in jail to go to court. Snyder's testimony, that cellmate, they said that the defense attorney told the judge that he intends to present records on a district court case against Snyder to impeach his testimony. He didn't mention what the case was, but the case was he had several charges pending against him, which are eventually dismissed, by the way. Oh, wild. Interesting.

Including attempted murder. Oh, my God eventually dismissed, by the way. Oh, wild. Interesting. Including attempted murder. Oh, my God. He's a bad man. They were dismissed. They stemmed from a mobile home explosion on January 6th on Cedar Creek Road near Dowling, in which eight people were injured. Wow. He blew up a mobile home with eight people inside it.

He fucking blew up a trailer, allegedly, and they dismissed the charges so he would say that Norman said something to him. Wow. Wow, they have to have some sort of witnesses. Otherwise, what are they going to put on the stand? That's the thing, you have to have somebody to come talk. They put up Carol Strobel. These are all witnesses with things to gain, man. So Strobel said that they talked repeatedly about Ricky Goddard and that he could kill him.

He even said that while she lived with Woodman Z, they frequently partied and did drugs and all that sort of thing. And as of early July, Woodman Z told her that, quote, he had a job to do and he would get paid three thousand dollars for it. OK, so Woodman Z there in late August. She said that Woodman Z drove her past Goddard's home on Gird Road. And he said, quote, she said, quote, he said the man who lived in there, he was going to kill. And she said, who was it? And Woodman Z told her that, quote, Rich's girlfriend told him that he was supposed to take a gold chain and a ring off the man after he killed him to make it look like a robbery. He referred to it as a job he was going to do for Rich and his girlfriend. So he was like, yeah, I got to help my boss and his girlfriend out. She asked him how he was going to get into the house.

And he said that he could ask to use the phone. his girlfriend out. She asked him how he was going to get into the house, and he said that he could ask to use the phone, and the guy would probably let him in. In the 80s, you could do that. Right. Especially a guy. Yeah. A guy who does glass work and shit.

He's not scared of letting, he's like, yeah, he could use my phone. He thinks he can handle himself. He's not expected to get shot in the back of the head. So he said he thought he could use the phone. Then Woodman Z told her in september that eckstein told him that the job was postponed because his girlfriend wanted to increase the insurance coverage oh that's what she says um that she's rich richard eckstein was like it's off for a few months she's's got to increase the insurance. So look at this.

So she also testified that she moved out of Woodman's home at the end of September. And then she also said that she said that she was concerned about Woodman. She had told her what he had told her the whole time. And he never she didn't call the police until February 9th, though. And she said that her call was processed under the Silent Observer program, but she didn't ask to receive an award for that. that, quote, Norm said that if the police approach him, this is one of his friends, he'll know what to do, that Carol's the only one who knows the details, which is her, obviously. Now, they got that guy on the stand that he told that to, and he said that that never happened. He said, quote, Norm had me tell her hi a few times. That was it.

None of that ever happened. I never talked to her. I just said hi. Oh, my God. none of that ever happened i never talked to her just said hi oh my god strobel said woodman z's mother frida called her after strobel contacted police and told and said quote she said everybody in the family knows you were the silent observer not so silent observer so you're in a small town that shit'll get out you know what i mean norman feels you sold him up the river and he's going to sell you. Oh, boy.

Now, Carol says, quote, I said, Frida, Norman's killed a man. She said, I don't care. What? Now, Frida said that Strobel was never threatened. Frida said, quote, I told her I'd seen the police report and that I knew she was the silent observer. And then she hung up on me. And that was the extent of it. Frida Woodman Z said that she told Strobel once, quote, I hope your stomach.

I hope her stomach turned out like mine did when she learned that her son had been arrested. So I don't know what that means. I guess she's heavier. I don't know what's going on. Strobel said, although she once lived with one man, Z and was close to him, she believes he killed Goddard and she had a duty to speak out. All these people who don't give a shit about any society and all of a sudden they have a duty is hilarious to me. Hey, good citizen. She said Woodman Z told a lot of stories and liked to look macho, but he had a strong sense of loyalty and doesn't like squealers.

That's what she was told there ricky goddard cannot defend himself now strobel said i just feel very bad that i did not believe norman and that ricky's dead so she also said she's been treated for alcohol and drug abuse since there um yeah she said she's been she she became concerned on learning. Uh, uh, she became concerned when she heard of the murder of Shirley Martini on January 4th, 1986, thinking Norman did that. She said that her and her two friends drove to the Martini address and she realized it wasn't the same home that Woodman Z had driven her past. When she learned of the Goddard murder, she said that she quote, did a lot of praying

before she called silent observer. And so she said she gave them information about the missing missing ring and chain. And she eventually led police to the Goddard home and identified it as the one Wood Menzi showed her. But the address is also in public knowledge. So you could say you could look up the address, take them there and go. That's the house he told me if you wanted to set her up. There's no there's no way to tell where she got that information from or when is what I'm saying. You just have to believe her.

So under cross-examination, she said she read it. She did read a Battle Creek Inquirer article on the murder. So she has read about it. But that wire, though, well, well no that's the name of the newspaper battle creek inquire they should certainly change the name of that yeah in the 80s though they're probably their name since the 30s or something you might be right yeah so uh that the meat none of the media reports mentioned the missing jewelry she said so didn't mention the missing jewelry jewelry so what fuck jewelry you know hey I don't know anything so anyway so that's that's

their case that's their whole case their whole case is the guy with the shotgun denying that ever happened one guy selling him down the river his ex woodman Z's ex girlfriend testifying against him and a dude who

lies about a shotgun that's that's his whole and a jockey who lies about a shotgun. That's his whole, and a jockey who lies about a shotgun. That's the case. So it's a weird one, I would say. So during the closings, the prosecutor delivered an hour-long synopsis of all this shit. Defense attorney contended that they did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt

saying it was full of inconsistencies and uh the murder trial had 40 witnesses and 75 pieces of evidence but as we know some of those witnesses were pretty thin right the prosecutor in his closing said that zugel's george zugel's testimony that woodman z was at his house the night of the murder lacked credibility but somehow carol straub's the ex-girlfriend stuff has all the credibility in the world with plenty of reason to say something awful yeah take that into account but not this guy that's what i mean and now the crowd this is the prosecutors this is he says this sarcastically where would a hitman go after a killing except to be with his cocaine using buddies yeah that is where he would go that's the thing he wouldn't go

sit in a cave and think about it they go that's what after hitman after they party they go get a steak after they kill a guy that's how it works the goal was to get coke anyway like that's his whole reason that's all motive like coke and meth it's the gatorade of murder james that's his whole reason. That's the whole motive. Coke and meth, it's the Gatorade of murder, James. That's it, like we've said for years. So the defense attorney, in his summary here at the end, he said that here's all the things that are reasonable doubt that he says. Unaccounted for tire tracks in the snow at the crime scene. Like we said, Norman did change his tires, but still, they don't have evidence that the old tires matched. People change their tires in Michigan in the winter or, you know, they change.

Well, January. Yeah. The roads are shitty and it's snowing outside. So, you know, it happens. Records of phone calls that do not prove who made them or what was discussed because they were like from Kellogg's. Goddard's knowledge that his insurance coverage was being increased like he would have known that the guy who was murdered and testimony indicating the amounts were reasonable for his lifestyle. It wasn't like it was went from 50,000 to 10 million went to 50,000 to 100,000 is a reasonable amount. Untouched valuables in the Goddard's house suggesting that a burglar could have been scared off by something or somebody. in the Goddard's house, suggesting that a burglar could have been scared off by something or somebody. Carol Straubel's history of blackouts and hospitalization for alcoholism. Oh, my God.

She blacks out from the. Yeah, she's a blackout drinker. And at the time where she says this was all going on, she said that her and Norman were doing tons of drugs and booze. So, yeah. The defense attorney said, quote, there's not one bit of physical evidence tying Norman Woodman Z to this crime. They said that, well, anyway, if the jury can't find him guilty of premeditated willful murder,

Jesus, hard to say, which is, that's first degree conviction, according to the judge here it may bring a verdict of second degree murder which proof of premeditation is not uh required which this isn't an accident either he planned it and did it or he didn't thanks you don't even need to put second yeah it's either first or nothing here so during the during the deliberations, they have to be delayed because a juror, after being blinded by the lights of a flashing camera, fell down the courthouse steps. Oh, my God. She fell down the fucking steps of the courthouse.

Rose Marie Matisse, the juror, suffered a fractured ankle, claiming she was blinded by the lights from television and still cameras flashing at jurors as they left the courthouse. Why would they do that? That's what I'm saying. She was in good condition. And yeah, the prosecutor said some media people should use discretion in pestering jurors who are working on a case like this. If I was a juror sitting on a case like this, I would not want to be constantly pestered with questions or cameras stuck in my face while I was deliberating the case. Yeah, leave them the fuck alone then they also uh the people in the town by the way are noticing this is costing a shitload of money this this trial has will wipe out two-thirds of the money set aside for this

entire year for jury trials in this county whole budget gone on this one trial um the one hastings resident dallas nance this guy's some old guy they found on the street he said they've been taking the taxpayers money somebody should do a story about how much uh the news media has spent on this how much the news media has spent that's not the news media it's the fucking court spending it he's blaming cvs hell you're talking about so you could blame the media for a lot but not that so uh the verdict comes in finally after people are falling down stairs and everything else and it comes in and he is found guilty of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder as well. Woodman Z. Woodman Z. Oh, my God. No one else is charged with shit, by the way, like we said. July 11th, 86 is the sentencing, and they say to him, you, sir, may fuck off life without

the possibility of parole. Holy shit. That is- This seems like pretty easy to appeal and get off, right? shit that is like pretty easy to appeal and get off right well i mean the problem is on an appeal you have to have either something in the legal system fucked up or or new evidence you can't just have they that was a terrible trial that i shouldn't have been convicted because they should evidence that'd be a good appeal because that's a lot most of the time what it is but that shit gets pushed to the back otherwise everybody would say that so uh during sentencing he maintains his innocence the whole time he said you're making

a mistake i didn't do this i'm innocent wouldn't you know cop to it or anything like that he said he would be exonerated on appeal and the judge just for good measure tacks on a little cherry on top of 40 to 60 years for the conspiracy charge too on top of it wow this man holy shit so august of 1986 the gun is found he's already convicted and down the river before the gun is even pulled out of the river unbelievable wild the gun that they think was the murder weapon was found here. A South Haven diver who found the gun said he saw the gun in a shell with a marking indicated that it was made from Hungary. He found the gun in a shell, basically. Saw in the gun a shell, not saw the gun in a shell. Did I say that backwards? The shell was still in the gun.

It was still in the gun. He said he later threw the shell away. But I don't know why. How the fuck would you do that? But the gun or the shell that he found, this guy, now we don't know because he doesn't have it still. He just says it, right. He remembers that the shell found said it was made in Hungary. So that's what he knows.

It's gone. But police say that they found that shell casing found in Goddard's home. Goddard's home, they believe, was also made in Hungary. So they think part of the casing that they found there was made in Hungary as well. Hold on. It might match. So they think the guy came, was told to go get a gun and do this for us. came, was told to go get a gun and do this for us. So he went and got a gun, then showed up to the house with no shells and grabbed a shell from the house and shot the guy?

No, no, no, no. We're talking about the spent shell there. Right. The spent shell in the house. Oh, got you. Okay, the one that was left there. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that one.

So they're matching that. But the gun to the shell, that's great. That gun killed him. Wonderful. Who the fuck was holding it is the problem, and that doesn't tell you that. You know gun to the shell, that's great. That gun killed him. Wonderful. Who the fuck was holding it is the problem, and that doesn't tell you that. You know what I mean? It's not like in Norman's house he had a shitload of Hungarian shotgun shells.

That would be something to connect him, but this is not. So October 1986, though, if you're rooting for Norman and thinking he's a good guy and he's just kind of whatever, I think this might be a Stephen Avery situation where it's like, hey, he might not have done this, but he is a scumbag because we have October 86, more charges for Norman here. It's another murder charge from a whole separate person here. Oh, no. here oh no uh he faces uh the charges in a june 1984 gunshot slaying of a carnival worker named frederick kimberly oh the poor bastard he killed a carny a 43 year old carnival worker he how much time did he really have left anyway i mean that dude probably would off himself anytime in the

next couple years he really didn't have to do that. Surviving on deep-fried everything. Yeah, he's just going to drop anyway. So, yeah, he's eating deep-fried fucking sugar. As a... tires. Somebody's crutch was in there. Deep-fried everything. Anything. Deep-fried stuffed animals from one of those dart games.

He doesn't give a shit. So this body was found shot in the side of the head or shot in the back of the head i'm sorry uh right behind the ear uh we'll talk about that on july 20th 1984 it was found this body was found in a creek besides uh m66 i guess that's the road in barry town michigan 66 in barry's county's assyria township. The pathologist reported that the bullet entered just behind the right ear, near the hairline, and severed the brain stem and killed him. So anyway, they thought his name was Frederick Kimberly. That's the problem.

So for years, he wasn't identified, and they couldn't figure out what happened to him. But then later on, they figure out, now in 86, that his name is is actually Frederick Kuna and they find out where he's from. K.U.N.A. First, they identified him as Frederick Kimberly because that was he had an identification necklace around his neck like a carnival worker pass that said his name was Frederick Kimberly. Because who knows what carnies give us their names of carnivals? Who cares? He's hiding from somebody using an assumed name. So they finally, in 1986, figured out his real identity. And, you know, they contacted his family and all that shit. They had found the Carnival Company identification card on his body with the Kimberly name.

And then they later determined that he used several aliases and that's why Kimberly's father, Frederick's father, he said that he was notified about his son being killed and that family members had not heard from him since receiving a postcard in summer of 1984, so right before he died, and they said

quote, there wasn't much of a bond between Frederick and his family given the fact that he hadn't seen his parents in 21 years holy hell 21 years so he was a drifter carny worker guy that so anyway he's on try he's put on trial for this norman is he takes the stand in his own defense and he admits shooting frederick kimberly said i shot that motherfucker he said but he came at me with a knife that's why I shot him. I mean, he works for a carnival and uses an alias, right? This should be a no-brainer.

Who knows what that guy's up to? Yeah. He said that he dumped the body in a creek near the M-66 later that day. He said, quote, I threw the body over the bridge and went home. I feel bad about it. Clearly. That sounds like the Iceman. Yeah, I was all broken up about it

i shouldn't have done that one yeah yeah that's what when he said about right the mayor they're like well you talked to him for so much did you feel bad about it and he goes yeah it's all broken up about it and he smiles fucking hated his guts he didn't care so yeah he said he feels bad about it um he uh we got to do a bonus on him too because i've been reading a lot more on him yeah there's some weird stuff with that guy we got to talk about man he was i like the part when he says that he uh he goes uh so i let the guy uh ask jesus for his life and uh i gave him 30 minutes i probably should i probably shouldn't have done that yeah he goes i said if god saves your life in the next 30 minutes i I probably shouldn't have done that. Yeah, he goes, I said, if God saves your life in the next 30 minutes,

I'll let you go. He didn't show up. That was one of those, there was a lot of mafia people who were serial killers that just happened to work for the mafia, but they were just, they would have been serial killers otherwise.

Guys like him, Tommy Pitera, there's a bunch of them. Roy DeMeo was a fucking serial killer. Yeah. I mean, so yeah, we'll talk about that kind of shit. Kind of hiding behind all broken up about it and a smile so he also testified that while driving on the i-69 from

tarahote which is where the carnival was yeah to his home he picked up kimberly who was hitchhiking he was hitchhiking near gas city indiana and and Woodman Z said that he and Kimberly were drinking together in the truck and they stopped in Fort Wayne and in Marshall on the way home. And he said that Kimberly was drunk and in a bad mood. He said that he was in a bad mood because Kimberly was saying that he had all of his shit stolen by somebody else who gave him a ride. He was hitchhiking and somebody picked him up and robbed him of all his shit. So that's why he's pissed. So Kimberly told him, told

Woodman Z that he was on his way to Benton Harbor to get a job. So when Woodman Z heard that, he said he offered to let the man stay at his home overnight. Which how often has a hitchhiker been invited in for then i'll just take you to my house fuck it just stay with me uh so when he got home woodman z said he went into his house to get his gun not because he was he says quote not because he was

particularly leery of the man but quote because i carry a gun around when i'm home i always do i do that at home i just carry a gun or i when i home. I always do. I do that at home. I just carry a gun. When I get home, that's when I take my gun because I'm unsafe. I'm the most unsafe in my own home with the door locked. That's what that man just said. Wow. I wander around this city picking up strangers unarmed. That's my thing.

And then I get home. I just do it. And then I arm myself. And he said once he got his gun, he came out and he said Kimberly wasn't in his living room. He's like, where is the fucking guy? He's still outside. So he said he went out and he said,

hey, why didn't you come inside? He said it's at that point that Frederick Kimberly pulled out a pocket knife and demanded his car keys and his money. Hand it over, mister. And Woodman Z said that Kimberly lunged at him with the knife and cut his arm. So Woodman Z said he kicked lunged at him with the knife and cut his arm.

So Woodman Z said he kicked him because when he cut his arm, Kimberly kind of got off balance because he was drunk. So when he was off balance a little, it gave Woodman Z a chance to kick him. He said he kicked him and he fell on the ground. Then he said he shot him afterwards. He said he kicked him to the ground and then shot him. In the struggle, I put an excellently placed bullet in him. said he shot him afterwards he said he kicked him to the ground and then shot him but he also struggle i put an excellently placed bullet in him right in the back of his fucking head execution style

as if he owed john gaudy a hundred thousand dollars like this is because it is 86 so he says quote i don't even remember pulling the trigger okay he said uh he said he was in shock and that's why he didn't go right to the police uh another reason he said uh he said he was in shock and that's why he didn't go right to the police uh another reason he said because he was on probation for larceny so i mean obviously they're not going to believe me i stole something once so you know he said quote and i just don't know that was the rest of his explanation he says that he vaguely remembers putting the body in his car driving down the m66 and throwing the body into the creek he uh he said that he vaguely remembers putting the body in his car, driving down the M-66 and throwing the body into the creek. He said that he asked his son, Bill, to help him get rid of the body.

So, you know, he tied his kid into this. And Bill said that the police Bill statement was read to the jury. And in it, he indicated that his father had asked him to quote get rid of a body and that he had answered quote you'll have to do that yourself that's on you bud i don't think so pops you know what you should have came to more of my little league games let's put it that way can't we just go fishing you fucking jerk yeah we gotta get rid of a body what are you nuts that's how we get together that's how we bond really jesus we can't just have a barbecue and watch the fucking lions game what are we doing

teach me how to build a fire with no matches what is this jesus uh woodman z said that he remembers going to his son's house uh that night and waking him up but he doesn't remember what he said uh he also testified he didn't tell police, obviously because of the probation. And when people were questioning his memory, he said, well, it happened two years ago. I don't know. And he said that he would admit to killing a man and then make up with that man. The prosecution said he killed a man, then made up that that man came at him with a knife. That's what the prosecution saying here.

They said that the victim was shot in the back of the head. That's inconsistent with Norman Woodman's self-serving statements that he acted in self-defense. And additionally, they said the knife was never found. And Woodman's he never told authorities about the killing before his arrest. So all these factors mean the verdict comes in and he is found guilty of first-degree murder again twice he's so nice they did him twice um only two and a half hours of deliberation and no jurors injured so that's helpful uh yeah um he will be sentenced at the same time as a habitual offender for three previous

convictions of attempted delivery of cocaine and larceny oh he's so much shit now now he's fucked uh the verdict for premeditated murder carries a mandatory life sentence and it's just with or without chance of parole and um they ask him about it his lawyer says quote he's stunned i'm stunned i hope for manslaughter and maybe better the jury deep sixed us because they knew of the other conviction he's a very kind person a soft-spoken guy who is not capable of violence well he did say he kicked a man and then shot him in the back of the head so even in self-defense you're capable of violence if you kick a man and then shoot him execution self-defense you're capable of violence if you kick a man and then shoot him execution style he's admittedly capable of violence yeah that's what i mean he

didn't kick him and then fire a shot up in the air and say next one's in your fucking brain pal that you know that would have been something to where he's non-violent he didn't want to do it he was just like pow boom bitch what's up now what's up now motherfucker like he's he stood over him so um yeah anyway uh after the trial they said the key the jurors uh the key was bringing their verdict to getting their verdict was the position of the that the bullet found in kimberly's skull and the and woodman z had not told police about the killing so they all the jurors, when they were pulled, said because it was in the back of the head and because he didn't call 911 right away and say, some transient carny worker tried to rob me in my house and I shot him.

Right. So they say, quote, this is the prosecutor, quote, it's unlikely it was an accident in any way. Whoever pulled that trigger knew what he was doing. So what do you think his sentencing is for this going to be? Sentencing comes up. For sure. He gets, you, sir, may fuck off.

Life without. So two life withouts for this guy. Plus 40 to 60. That one's a slam dunk. Yeah. And honestly, evidence-wise, like, you know when there's like a football game where you're like I mean it could have gone it could have been 31-27 either way you know what I mean the way things went he could have just as easily been like

walking or getting just like some like time served accidental discharge of a firearm shit for all the things he's done because we don't there's no evidence of one murder and you know mixed evidence that he shot a you know a transient carny worker on purpose.

You know what I'm saying? Like, instead, he got the worst possible outcome to life without this guy, a shit luck. So he's going to serve out his prison at the Southern Michigan, Michigan prison at Jackson, where he was already serving a life sentence. So he doesn't have to move anyway. Not a far trip. Now, 1987 comes around. That all was all in 1986. He had a bad 86.

What a tough year. Two murder convictions. Yeah. 87, a $17,500 reward is offered by Ricky Goddard's friends and family for information leading to the conviction of conspirators in his killing. Smart. What is that saying? Yeah. They're pissed.

That's saying they're pissed and they think somebody, they think the wife is into this. So the Ken DeMott of the Sheriff's Department said that the information has been filtering in on a regular basis, but couldn't attribute any of that to the reward or just info coming in. Oh, God. So May of 1987 now uh they catch up with sharon and uh she said they asked what do you think about the reward and she said she welcomed any information that could convict anyone responsible for the murder of her husband but um she said she believes that a reward offered this week is, quote, just vigilante justice.

That's what she said. It's as you're looking for people to take the law into their own hands. Yeah. So she. Yeah, this is pretty funny. So what Sharon been up to in the last year? I'd love to know. Well, she gave birth to a daughter named Ashley.

We know that she also has her other other daughter adrian who was nine years old she said her attorney said quote she would like to see the persons responsible for her husband's death uh for her husband's death clear her so she said she'd like to see basically what oj said i i'm going to look for the true the real murderers not that i'm saying she did it i'm just saying there's just you know that's the same statement right yeah she's just gonna go golf uh i know she didn't do it the attorney says he uh said that neither he nor his client favor paying for information in criminal cases that is what every police department in the country does and it's it's not good i don't think in some cases it's good but in some cases in a case with a high threshold for evidence it's good in a murder case when you need tips

it's good because generally you would imagine in a murder case there has to be a lot of evidence to convict that person so just someone's tip isn't going to do it but when they have these tips of like this person has drugs or this person did that robbery over on there people get convicted just because someone got 300 you know what i mean that happens a lot so anyway uh they said scary too on the on the tips because it's true you're throwing money out there to people that know about that shit are bad fucking people a lot of them they just didn't say anything you know about who killed this person you never told anybody what the fuck dude yeah yeah what now you need money to do it what's wrong with you what are you doing in your life that you

don't want the police to look at yeah shit uh now her lawyer said that sharon had not received any money from the federal home life insurance company policies as well a company spokesman said that fifty thousand dollars has been held in escrow until attorneys for Sharon Goddard and Ricky Goddard's family resolve a dispute over its distribution. Ah, his family wants it, not her. Yep. Federal, the insurance company has contested another $50,000 policy taken out. So they're contesting the one taken out right before the death. They're going, we'll honor the original policy, but we're not tacking that 50 grand on that you put on a month before he died the her lawyer says if sharon ever does receive the insurance money she intends to give it all to her daughters that's all he said the fact that

she was named as a co-conspirator in the case does not mean that she's guilty of anything he said quote it was based on woodman z's girlfriend's description. It's not on her record. It's something that she doesn't have control over. So the county prosecutor said that he has no case right now against Sharon or Eckstein. But he added, quote, one jury must have been convinced there was a meeting of the minds between the defendant and at least one conspirator in the act. Yeah. So one man has been he's been convicted of a one-man conspiracy this is when the legal when it doesn't make sense when when you can convict illogical things and it's perfectly legal because that's the way it's set up this is an illogical thing

it's wild it's just illogical by the end by the end of the case as it went to the jury i don't know how the judge isn't like well i'm dismissing the conspiracy case because you have made no case for conspiracy. You have charged nobody else. You've not told me what the conspiracy is with charges and actually backing it up with putting your fucking name on it. So what's up? Right. Yeah. I mean, it seemed like it could be turned over on appeal.

But I guess I don't know, man. I'm shocked. This is just fucked. So anyway, he says one jury must have been convinced of that. And they said at this point they couldn't find Rick Eckstein at all. He's in the wind. He's in the wind. His attorney said that he doubted his client would want to comment on the case.

They did get a hold of his attorney, who didn't know where he was either, but said, we're pretty sure he doesn't want to talk about it. Based on the fact that we can't find him. We can't find him and he's disappeared. So October 87, they charge Hyslop. Remember Hyslop? Yeah. They charge him with perjury and an attempted conspiracy to commit perjury there. Oh, my God.

More conspiracy. Yeah, he's going to end up pleading to that and pleading and testifying against even somebody else now. Also, October 29th, 87, they charged George Zugel. He's arraigned on charges of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder, aiding and abetting perjury, and conspiracy to commit perjury oh that's

not good at all holy shit he's forced he's told ordered to stand trial on first degree murder and all those charges in november so march 1988 george zugel perjury trial he's set to go on trial for first degree murder the next month yeah wow. Hyslop pleaded guilty to attempted perjury and attempted conspiracy to commit perjury and testifies against Zougal. So Hyslop will sell his guy up the river any second he can.

He says that Zougal, he and Zougal agreed to give a false story regarding the telephone conversation. He says that when Hyslop wouldn't lend him the money, he asked, Zugel had testified when Hyslop wouldn't lend him the money, he asked if he could borrow the gun to collect the debt. He said, quote, this big guy owed me some money, Zugel testified.

I didn't know what he was going to do if I knocked on the door. Zugel said Woodman Z left his home about 5 a.m. on January 25th, but he did not know when he picked up the gun from Hyslop. Woodman Z, who Zugel said also wanted to use the gun to collect his debt, returned it to Zugel four or five days later. I asked him if he got the money, and he said no. That's Zugel talking. And they asked him, did you and Mr. Hyslop ever have an agreement to testify falsely at Mr. Woodman's trial? And Zugal answered, no, there was no reason to.

I wasn't guilty of anything. OK, so toward the end of the trial here, the judge requests a contingent of people for protection of the jury because they don't want any more jury problems. They actually have like a special jury unit to like walk them out to their car so nobody bothers them. Verdict comes in. It takes them two hours to find Zugal guilty of

conspiracy to commit perjury. He's also found guilty of being a habitual offender having three previous felony convictions. Oh, God damn it. He is to be sentenced here. And then he's going to go on trial for first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder as well.

He. Yeah. The assistant prosecutor said they'll have an impact. His convictions will have an impact on his upcoming trial. But his upcoming trial won't happen. Why? Because they flipped him and he's going to testify. Against whom?

Shit is a mess. Against whom will he be testifying, you ask? Who? You ask, maybe? Sharon Goddard and Richard Eckstein, because they're going to be charged with murder now. This is just a fucking merry-go-round of i'm getting off the pink horse and getting on the purple one just who did it who knows whack-a-mole whoever you whack committed a conspiracy to whack-a-mole

that's what we got going on here so but really i mean they have to do it this way, and it works. It makes sense, the story for the prosecution, because if Woodman Z did it, he has no reason to do it. You know what I mean? Yeah, except for money. Right. And who would give him money would be the wife. Who the fuck else would pay him to kill him? Who's paying him? Yeah, who?

Who? Quibono. You know what I mean? Exactly. So he benefits. He's supposed to kill him. That's the point. Right. Yeah. Who? We Bono. You know what I mean? Exactly. So he benefits. He's supposed to anyway. So anyway, Zugal ends up pleading. He pleads to aiding and abetting second degree murder and conspiracy to commit perjury.

He is sentenced to you, sir. May fuck off 25 to 50 years in prison. God damn. They banged him hard michigan does not fuck around so april 8th 1988 x stein and sharon are both arrested for murder and uh also high slop is sentenced as well uh he's like turned twice on people this turn there's so many people turning on so many people you don't even know like who's on what team anymore it's insane it's ugly he he was sentenced he pleads guilty to attempted perjury and conspiracy to obstruct justice and he is sentenced to you sir may fuck off one year in jail with 234 days credit okay so not that long jail. So he should get out right now with probation, with parole.

Yeah, he'd get out right now. And three years probation and a $1,500 fine. That's what he gets. July 88, Goddard and Eckstein go to trial. So, so far, Zugel, 25 to 50 years. Yeah. High slot. High slot, probation, but still.

Yeah. He's convicted, got to go to court. Six weeks in jail. He served 234 days in jail already. There's that. Woodman Z fucking life without time squared. Life without squared. OK, now Goddard and Eckstein go to trial in 88 and they Zugal is their star witness.

He plead pled guilty. Like we told you here. Now they're on trial. They're charged with aiding and abetting first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder. That's the charges. They allege that Goddard and Epstein obviously conspired to make $100,000 and that Woodman Z has already been convicted, so it should be a slam dunk. Kim Baldwin, enter Kim Baldwin to the picture, 21 years old.

She said Eckstein had brought a woman to Woodman Z. Remember her? She's the one who lives with Woodman Z and testified. He says that Eckstein brought a woman to Woodman Z's house one day. Now, Eckstein doesn't hang out with Woodman Z. So, yeah, he said that the three of she said the three of them went in a room and closed the door. So they were either planning a murder or getting kinky. Either one or doing coke.

That's the other thing. There you go. People close doors to do coke because they don't want to give other people any. So Baldwin also told police that she thought that the woman was Sharon Goddard. Okay. That's what she thought. But she ends up testifying in court that she's unsure and now doesn't know. Now looking at her in court two years later, she's not positive it was her. She's not pregnant anymore.

I can't tell. Yeah. Essentially, it's three years later. Yeah. So I so i'm not positive i mean her hair could have changed whatever the fuck so kim baldwin said that she and shana chafe were told they would earn money by distracting the victim from the front while woodman z shot him in the back of the head that's what they heard them saying okay that's That's what, that's what she said. No, she said that he told her them that,

Oh Jesus, Kim, Kim and Shane are the two girls that live there. And, uh, they were told by Norman that they would, he would pay them if they distracted dude. So he could shoot him in the back of the head.

She said that Ricky Goddard's wife, Sharon was supposed to find the body. That was the plan. She was supposed to come home from work. Oh no. Call the cops. Her. Yeah yeah her testimony in the trial here uh and they try goddard and extine together but they have separate juries which is weird i guess just two juries sitting there in panel 24 people sitting there in court yep yeah two jury boxes were so strange right you'd have to bring in like bleachers for that so uh baldwin also said that uh uh they uh i'm sorry here under cross-examination from eckstein's attorney uh baldwin said she didn't pay attention to what woodman z was saying

quote it just didn't seem real to me she just thought he was talking out of his ass uh when cross-examined by goddard's attorney baldwin admitted to earlier testimony in which she in which she said she didn't hear anything about being paid because the house she was in was full of people at the time so she's testified to two separate things here she heard something clearly and then she didn't and the other one she also testified earlier that it was not sharon goddard who showed up at woodman z's home with ekstein that contradicts her current testimony that Goddard was the one there she also testified earlier that Schaaf was asleep upstairs when Woodman Z made his offer and now and also Schaaf testified that Woodman Z quote asked me if I was interested in making money big money all I had to

do was pull the trigger uh which seems to be his language anyway like baldwin uh schaaf testified she didn't believe woodman z and thought the offer was a joke so but they both testified that it was he's offering them money they got to go to more comedy clubs and find what jokes really are because that is not a good joke it's a weird joke it's a really weird joke so either way though someone is offering this dude lots of money to yeah you know do this so anyway uh they played a tape recording of sharon's interview uh with the uh with the detective in the interview which was conducted five days after the murder sharon frequently laughed about incidents in her life

and in her marriage she cried briefly while describing finding the dead body so the saying that she didn't say she didn't have the right she didn't have the right uh emotional reactions are bad yeah they're bad but five days later too and you don't know if maybe she took a fucking maybe she took his annex you know what i mean like maybe she took a valium back then back then they would have given her a valium sure she might have been fine by then closing arguments here uh they added that uh woodman z returned to zugel's home after the murder with a jewelry box according to zugel containing a gold ring and a necklace two items which which sharon reported missing yeah so deliberations come on here um right before deliberations or they're all going in here.

They go through all the evidence in the closing. Obviously, they say that they're they thought this out beforehand and planned it as early as July 1985. And they said, quote, this is who is. Oh, yeah, this is the prosecutor. He says, quote, George Zugal and Robbie Hyslop are not good people. And some and some of our other witnesses leave a little to be desired, a lot to be desired. He said, though, as scumbags as they are. Yes, we brought you a panel of scumbags.

But as scummy as they are, their testimony has been supported by other people and the evidence here so you know that's how you can believe it these are shit bags but they're telling the truth but they're truthful shit bags they stink pure and true and straight so he says taken together the evidence shows that sharon goddard conspired with Richard Eckstein to kill Ricky Goddard. So George Zougal and then the defense attorneys say George Zougal lied under oath before and George Zougal lied under oath here. George Zougal would say anything George Zougal had to say for his own good. Most times George Zougal's ever been said in one fucking time they also said that uh the testimony of their clients is more believable than zugel or that of half the or that of the other quote raft of leeches the prosecutor prevented

wow this is a great fucking story this is just this is a scumbag for every mile. Next week's is fucking gross. So let's enjoy the fun here. So after five hours and 40 minutes, the eight-woman, four-man jury that Sharon has, her jury, came back. And here's the verdict for her. They found her not guilty of aiding and abetting first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder oh my god separate jury whole separate jury for x dean uh here in six uh six and a half hours of deliberation same charges found him not guilty of everything apparently the whole there was an audible gasp from the gallery all the newspapers there was like oh for real oh my god goddard burst into tears after the verdicts

were read and like hugged her attorney she was not expecting that at all um she didn't pull like an oj just like that's right and like you know grab johnny cochran shoulder or some shit like this was like uh oh my god holy shit are you fucking serious is this for real um so the victim's parents here uh ricky's parents john and beverly goddard and other family members left the courtroom visibly upset yeah i would say so um uh she said sharon goddard said quote i'm glad the people know my husband was a good man the children are ours and god does work miracles when you believe oh boy she brought god into this x time said there were times in the last two and a half years where i had doubts about the justice system. Well, this has given me doubts about a lot of shit. No,

you and me and you both asshole. Uh, but now I know the justice system works. Okay. This, this case made him think the justice system worked. Shocking. If someone came to me and said,

quick, you have to present the side that the justice system doesn't work in a debate. I'd be like, cool. And I'd get this research and I just bring it and read the whole story and go, does it work? Huh? Not sure.

Any of this work for anybody is any of this work. I'm talking anything. So Goddard said she was going home to, quote, hold my children. Eckstein said he's going to take the week off, then return to his job as the machine shop supervisor at the kellogg's company because they both still fucking work there oh that'll be very comfortable for everybody around right this is crazy he's just taking the week off he said he doesn't blame sharon for anything and that the two remain friends he said all i can say is that the jury heard the evidence they had and they didn't convict

and we have to live with that oh that was the prosecutor said that he said yes i am disappointed but i accept our system this is our system at work right now like it or not uh which is how i wish everybody would take every fucking l in every court case and election and everything else just say yep well i'm i'm disappointed obviously i would have liked for things to be different but that's what happens so everybody imagine if all the i just i just like it when a lawyer says that at the end of a case when they're like i mean i would have liked to have won but i mean what are you gonna do i didn't that's what happens so the tough shit rather than they're like act all like uh you know overly fucking like they've been attacked over like this is the

worst abomination in the history of the legal system of this country like calm the fuck down proportionality yeah what are we talking about here so uh the uh he said that the the uh defense attorney said he felt the jury did not believe the testimony of George Zuegel, who had pleaded guilty to all that other shit. And so Eckstein also not there. And they said, quote, the lawyer said, there's such a contrast between Sharon and Rich Eckstein and Zuegel. They were so believable and he was so unbelievable. And that's what did it. And they said that Eckstein says that he feels vindicated that they demonstrated a community opinion of his peers, that he's not guilty. He's happy.

So Woodman Z appeals, obviously, on all sorts of shit. And he appeals. They said that argued in his brief that there was insufficient admissible evidence. The court noted that the specific objections to the admission of evidence cannot be raised for the first time on appeal

absent a showing of manifest injustice, like we were saying. You can't just say, hold on, we got to relitigate that. Hold on, I got fucked.

Yeah, it has to be like, they fucked me on purpose in a way. So he said, however, though, since the challenged evidence is a major part of the prosecution's case, the court decided to review the issue. And they ruled that the telephone records listing calls between Woodman Z and others and the testimony of Kim Baldwin, Shana Schaaf, Brian Snyder and Karen Strobel. That's the cellmate in county jail, the ex-girlfriend and the two chicks he lived with. And testimony about the acts and declarations of his alleged co-conspirators were all admitted properly.

And the argument that Woodman Z's counsel was ineffective is also rejected. They said, we conclude that even had trial counsel delved into physical evidence in this manner uh the verdict would have not been any different and uh yeah they say that's the way it worked and so norman goes to prison and uh from what i found here uh he had i found something in prison where a bunch of prisoners were like had a class action lawsuit against the prison sure and he was one of them uh prisoner number i don't know if it's his number just his case number one eight four three four seven and it said the claimant requests 49 and 25 cents reimbursement for eight tape cassettes he ordered but did not receive the department recommends approval of this claim so it's someone for 50 bucks yeah somebody stole

his someone in the mail room in the prison stole his tapes and he wants his 50 bucks back so they said we should probably give it to him now looking everybody up norman i can't find him in prison he might be dead i'm not sure because he was 47 in 1986 so you know yeah you put him in his 70s now 30 years in prison he could be going down if not he's in prison. He's not getting out. He never got out. Richard Eckstein, I found out, is still alive. He is 65 years old, lives in Michigan at some point.

I won't say where. Retired catalogs worker? I would assume. I don't know. But he lives in Michigan somewhere. I mean, he's found not guilty, so I'm not saying anything. He did have some brushes with the law later on in his life, though. 2015, texting while

driving and then he paid a 30 60 30 700 fine and then he exceeded the posted speed limit uh by six to ten miles an hour did somebody busted him 3700,700 fine. For texting and driving? Texting while driving, yeah. Wow. And then he got, someone gave him a ticket for going 6 to 10 miles an hour over the speed limit. That's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. But that means he was doing 15 to 20. Yeah, they knocked it down for him, probably did him a favor.

So he ends up paying a fine for that. But that's the only legal trouble he got in for the rest of his life. $3,700 fine. He got dinged harder for texting and driving yeah oh way harder sharon goddard on the other hand from what i could find it was hard to track her down i believe she died in 2017 in michigan 90 sure it's her i'm not 100 sure it's her but i believe she died in michigan in 2017 someone with her exact name did uh now high slop from what i found i believe he's still alive really high slop as well and george zugel died in may 2011 in elkhart indiana so yeah that's uh so uh x dean and high

slop are the are the winners of this crazy fucking... They're the ones that stand alone. They stand alone along with the cheese. Really? Eckstein is the one that came out smelling like a rose. Yeah, that's what I mean. He got nothing and he's still alive. 65, he's probably got great hair still, I bet. It's one of those guys. He's just a lucky guy. So anyway, that is Hastings, Michigan.

And just a goddamn mess of a case. That was what a shit storm. That's why I kept looking into it. And it took me like reading through it. I was like, it's taking it's hard for me to understand what's happening. I have to do this case just so I can figure out what the fuck happened here. Because it's a mess. And it's a real mess and i still don't know all

i know is one guy got in trouble another guy served 25 to 50 yeah one guy that did certainly didn't shoot him and didn't make any money off of it the other guy might have shot him but also didn't make any money off of it and everybody else walked free it's like what is happening here so um if you like that show or are confused about that show and just want to talk about it and everybody else walked free it's like what is happening here so um if you like that show or are confused about that show and just want to talk about it and tell everyone about it do that get on apple podcast give us five stars it really does help a lot that purple icon we don't know why but it does help head over to shut up and give me murder.com right now for everything crime and sports and small town murder we have it all there. We have your merchandise, tickets to live shows all over the place.

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This week's executive producers are Darren Althoffer. He wanted to say happy birthday to his life partner, DK. I didn't have a name, just DK. Happy birthday, DK. Good for you. Other executives this week are Doug Michalik. Michalik? Don't know.

Michalik. Michalik? Michalik? I don't know. One of those, maybe. Joanne Ahern. Rob Lanto. Jordan Bennett, of course.

Francesco Danino. Garrett DeBose, Celeste Warlick, Robin Sherrill, Colin Sherrich, Ann Kaley, and Vincent Whalen. Thank you guys for everything you do. You're all amazing. Really. So thankful. You're terrific.

Thank you. You're amazing. Other producers this week also are Jennifer Alisakis, D.L. Bass, Trey Jelly, Aislinn Kalob. It's her birthday. Aislinn, that's right, but I don't know about Kalob. It could be Kalob. It could be Kalob. Kalob. Kalob.

Caleb. Caleb. Happy birthday, Aislinn. Happy birthday. I don't know how to say your name. Alexandria Kritkiewicz. Kritkiewicz. I don't know how to say your name. Alexandria Crit-Kiewitz. Crit-Kiewitz. I don't know.

Ashley Veo. Marcel Destin. Erica Zalanardo. She's been with us. Erica has been with us for four years. She's listened almost the whole fucking time. Thank you, Erica. Thank you so much.

We appreciate that. Niederland Schieppensbo Matteship. That's that fucking they wanted me to try it as if as if what am i gonna fucking nail it good luck not gonna happen oh boy water got me there did you hear it i did yeah it didn't didn't go down right also uh we were it we're it here in my wit maca with we're it here in maca wanich nope yeah maybe janice hill susan susanna Weereth Hiren Makawanich. Nope. Maybe.

Janice Hill, Susanna Platt, Thomas DeMello. He's in Italy at the moment because he's working there. Bryn Sanders, Jake Goins, Catherine Collado, Jessica Finch, Rebecca Thomas, Kristen Bellinger, James Marder, Maria Rasper, Peyton Meadows, Thomas E. Sims, David Beers, Emeline, what is this, Brumley? Emeline Bradley. Thomas E. Sims, David Beers, Emmeline, Emmeline, what is this, Brumley, Emmeline Brodley, Corporal Carl Kirshner, Rabbi Shmulalovich. Rabbi. Our people.

Baron Miguel Cicluna. Cicluna. Baron Miguel Cicluna is a famous old WWF jobber. He's from the Isle of Malta, James. He's from Malta. That's his whole thing. Yeah. He was a bad guy in wrestling.

All right. One of Vince McMahon Sr.'s favorite people. Jim Pizzi, Ashley Hughes, Michael St. Clair, Casey Woods, Zoe Bancroft, Billy Hadley, Hadfield. Sorry, Billy. Brenton Lane, Shamil Singh. Shamil Singh, yes. April Gustavus. Gustavus.

Mike Shields. Rick Smith. Smith, yes. Rem MTZ. Kenneth Alden. Matthew Koons. Troy Park. Margaret. No, that's Morgan.

Morgan Morrison. Haven Sedona. Doc Porter. Zach D. Hoop. It's coming off the rails. Take it to DeHoop, Zach. Listen. Candice Cortez-Reagan, Daniel Galbraith, Clarence Greiser, Hugh Peltier, Kevin Larson, Addison Hamilton, Andrew Platt, LJW.

No, LWJ. I can't even read letters in order. What the fuck? LWJ times two. Claire Griga. Yep. Artemis Fowl. Crystal Grabman.

Tyler Late. Emily with no last name. Cindy Dietrich. Catherine Watson. Sean Simon. Bradley Kyle. Cindy Ferentini. Ian Thomas.

Leslie Bogue. Chris Honey. Tyrone Johnson. Michael Carpenter. Keyshawn Almond. Brittany Toney. Cecil Moon, Jesse Lothmiller, Jim Heath, Keith Sanderson, Mia Nelson, Ty Panko, Riley Brown, Anina Stevens, Marky Mark, Wismer, Captain Doug Workmaster, Jennifer Knopf, Chance McDaniel.

I think that's that guy. I think he lives here in Phoenix. I think so. Maybe not. If it's not, Chance McDaniel. Brandon Mainsmith, Adele Johnson, Teresa Moore, Colton Curtis, Monty and Rudy's mom, Gavin Lack, Dana Buchanan, Katie Brewers. I think that's Katie in Minnesota.

Thank you, Katie. Clemens Claus. It's Santa's son, Clemens. Oh, you know him, yeah. One of the kids. Emily Franklin, Lisa Robertson, Sean Edwards, Robert Spencer, Brooke Blake, Danielle with no last name, E.H. Don't know who that is, just the letters.

April H., Mandy Prevett, Joe Smith, Ramsey Arnold, Andy with no last name, Lindsay Wartner, Linset, what? Did I do a T instead of a D? I think that's what that is. Laura Howard, Melissa Zien, Mia Landon, Dakota Horton, Teresa Pritchard, Daniel Bannister, Brody Crawford, Dana Sandrine, Clint with no last name, The Katies at Rex Trophies Shop. Thank you, Katies. Kendall, probably not the Jenner. I'm sure. Could be.

She's got enough money to throw around. Why not? Should be. May as well. Kat Cox, Seth Ashworth, Jason Jones, Carlos Sanchez, Ashley Cruz, Michael McKee, Connor King, Rich Murphy, Lisa Smith, Lori Sparks, Carl Tolbert, Amber Vroman, Libby with no last name, Kim Graham, Victoria Rossi, Blake Tourette, Santa Muerte, Mary Alexander, Betty with no last name, Joe Conair, Matthew Bowman, CJ Rats, Joshua Kirkpatrick, Tristan

with no last name, Miguel Quintanilla. Wow, that's badass. Kevin Ray, Stacy with no last name, Willie Williams, Rachel First, Samantha Lindsay, Jacqueline Iman, Nick with no last name, Dustin Odom, Feth Fan, Samantha Timms, Alex Forrest, Stanislav Forov, Lacey Quimby, Shelby Loveland, Andrew Pope, Scott Finley, Angie, what, Bray Bender, Bra Bender. Good for you. That's a pretty bitchin' last name for a check.

That's not bad. Pretty cool. Just bendin' them. Hannah Moore, Mason with no last name, Marsha Frazier, Shelby Hughes, Josh Vincent, Jordan Frump, Wanda Lovejoy, Cuddling Death, Alexandria Zoboyevsky, Laura Toe. Karen would know last name with a C also. Nicholas Pleasant Farts, I doubt it. Sandy Francisco, Marja Maria, Maria Jacques. Casey would know last name.

Stephanie Albier, Chris Fitzgerald, Nori McClellan Ball, Olivia Wood, B. Barrows, and Tyler Kosme and all of our patrons. You guys truly, you've changed my life. You changed James' life. You make every day so much better. Thank you so much for listening and being a part of this and, of course, for your support. Thank you so much, everybody. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Fuck these people are the best. We love you so much. Honestly, thank you so much everybody thank you thank you thank you fuck these people are the best uh we love you so much honestly thank you so much and uh we this is all because of you everything we do we just love it and uh your patreon and your paypal your donations keep us to making the show that we want to make exactly and not a show that we have to make to get necessarily the biggest audience of yeah we're not we're not throwing out a wide net we're throwing out the net we want to throw out and uh that's the way we do it so oiled and seasoned with the right bait that's all it's just right that's the thing it's it's like one of the it's a you know a pizza place like back east the pizza oven is the key because it's been seasoned for years.

We've seasoned it up perfectly, and you guys, you're amazing at it. So thank you for everything you do. Jimmy, what if they wanted to thank you or yell at you or tell you anything? How could they do it? You can be whatever way you want to be to me, at WismanSucks, W-H-I-S-M-A-N sucks on Twitter and Instagram. Thank you truly for making this something. What about you? You can find me at JimmyPIsFunny or just copy and paste

not even copy and paste, just copy and paste my name if you want to find me because you won't spell it right. Or just Google us and Google the show and you'll find us and get links and go right to where the hell you are and you can find us. Super easy to do that. Thank you so much everyone honestly for everything this week that

you've done for us i uh i'm just blown away by all of you and all of your support and thank you and we really really hope you enjoyed the show and until next week everybody it's been our pleasure Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.