Small Town Murder - #244 - Born To Die - Marion, Virginia

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

This week, in Marion, Virginia, the unthinkably terrible murder of a local woman, leads to a man, who has done this kind of thing before. This exact kind of thing. In almost the exact same place. This time, it's much worse, though, as he gets to fulfill all the crazy fantasies that he built up in his head, since the last time. This is only the start, as death row prison escapes, and a near fleeing of the country, make this one of the weirdest things we can remember. In the end, will he get a last meal, or a life in prison? Along the way, we find out that some people only get worse over time, that maybe you shouldn't tattoo "Born To Die" on your arm, and that it looks very odd to execute Santa Claus!!   Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman   New episodes every Thursday!   Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail]   Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!   Follow us on...   twitter.com/@murdersmall   facebook.com/smalltownpod   instagram.com/smalltownmurder   Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Marion, Virginia, the unthinkably horrible murder of a local woman leads to a man who has done this sort of thing before, but has taken it to another level this time. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today. We are excited. Couldn't be more excited. Which is weird. It's murder, yes, but it's still a crazy story and

we're hanging out. So that's a good thing. And everybody's happy. But thank you, thank you, thank you. First of all, for everything you've done for us this week. If you haven't done it yet, whatever app you're on, doesn't matter. Whatever platform you're listening to this on, give us as many stars as you can. It helps the show yeah we don't know why but it's helpful so uh thank you for doing

that if you haven't head over to shut up and give me murder.com right now right now for everything you can get all your you know merchandise everything like that find out all so much stuff find out about crime and sports as well this is if you haven't started listening to crime and sports we're in the middle of a mike tyson three-parter we just posted part two so i would suggest maybe giving that a shot to begin with y'all everybody knows heavyweight bouts james that have a trilogy where where it's it's the same people fighting against each other and this time it's tyson versus tyson it's tyson versus tyson every week and it's fantastic check all that out patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you're going to get some very very good stuff here the episodes we just put up this week are phenomenal first of all anybody five dollars or above you get access

to everything all the shows both crime and sports bonus small town murder bonus hold back catalog you name it you got it uh the episodes this week are for crime and sports we did the personal ads we did where we talk about old personal ads from newspapers and read them and make fun of them unmercifully and then a special treat at the end we wrote personal ads for each other we did which are pretty goddamn phenomenal if we don't say so ourselves. So there's that. And then for Small Town Murders bonus, this was awesome. We talked about the Lula Rich documentary that's on Amazon right now. But we tied that in with this book I'm reading about the language of cults and kind of how multi-level marketing ties you in the same way cults do with their language. And it's the exact same structure. And the parallels are unbelievable when you go over it for an episode. you in the same way cults do with their language and it's the exact same structure and it's the

parallels are unbelievable when you go over it for an episode it's wild i would have never watched that horse yet uh had you not uh guided me to it and i'm very thankful for it it's crazy stuff i mean you have to watch it just to see what's going on so anyway there's that check all of that out and more and get everything in addition to that you'll also get a shout out because that's how appreciative we are for you. So appreciative that Jimmy will try his hardest to pronounce your name correctly while more than likely butchering it. So you can do all of that. Patreon dot com slash crime and sports. And if you just want to shout out and have good karma and to have, of course, our undying affection, out out and to have good karma and to have of course our undying affection you can do that as well over at paypal using our email address crime and sports at gmail.com that said let's have the

disclaimer the disclaimer this is a comedy show it is first we're comedians so we're gonna make jokes and it's called small town murder so there's definitely gonna be murder that's it's gonna happen so there's gonna be jokes around that the jokes aren't about the actual murder that's obviously it's going to happen so there's going to be jokes around that the jokes aren't about the actual murders that's the thing that's how you can do it it's not fun there's nothing funny about somebody dismembering another human being that's not funny inherently unless it's i don't even know who i don't even know who we would all agree on it's not funny let's just say that psychopathy that's weirdos yeah but the thing that is funny is someone going hey i bet if i dismembered that person and put them here and

there i think i can get away with it if i just go to work the next day that's that's crazy there's nothing nuts that's funny objectively that someone would have that thought and go i think i can do it that's nuts so we have to make fun of that and there's a lot of other stuff to make fun of. It's not about the murder. We go out of our way not to make fun of the victim or the victim's family. Why is that? Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags.

There it is. There it is. That's how it works. And I think we're all going to have a good time. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever, ever, never go together, maybe we're not for you. Maybe we are. Give it a shot.

Check it out. Either way, for whoever's here now, I think it's time to sit back, let it fly, and shout, Shut up and give me murder. Okay. Let's do this, Jimmy. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. I must apologize.

I have allergies going on today, and i have a sore throat going on so if i sound a little scratchy i do apologize for that but um it'll be good we'll be fine as we go on here so zantac is there tech yeah not zantac i don't think that would help my stomach acid feels great but my allergies are terrible i still have yet to go to a doctor for allergies i should probably do that shortly because i'm a fucking disaster but i i don't know anything that you're just like i'm sure i'm allergic to things yeah that's what this is i'm sorry you're gonna end up like benny my dog who's allergic to everything everything we got his he kept getting these in these these infections and all this stuff and just he was sick all What the hell is wrong with this dog?

So they finally did a test. He's allergic to every food there is. Not a thing doesn't do something. Beef, chicken, rice, pumpkin, everything that you give dogs to like settle their stomach. Allergic to that, too. He's allergic to everything. There's like two dog foods on the face of the earth that this dog can eat and not be a walking yeast factory with a stinky ears and everything else so anyway she sends me a text message saying hey this dog's available as if

i've seen what the fucking penny has to deal with jesus i don't need to go through that she is an anomaly of dogs though you think so well i know the vet all of those no no the vet said that this is the most allergic anybody she's ever seen a dog of any kind. That's right, your life is filled with, I've never seen this before. This has never happened before. My life is a series of this has never happened before, including the show, which is two middle unknown comedians that somehow got success on a pie. That doesn't happen.

It goes the other way around. It's never happened before. Our whole life. This has never happened before. Yeah, usually the statement's preceded with whole life this never happened before yeah usually usually the statements proceeded with i'm sorry yeah usually it's the most of the only time it's it's proceeded with congratulations this has never happened before otherwise it's wow i can't believe the luck you have shithead fuck you so let's head on a trip shall we let's go on trip. We're going all the way to Virginia. Not too far from Missouri here. Marion, Virginia.

Okay. This is Southwest Virginia. Straight panhandle, baby. This is Southwestern going into that. It's a panhandle is the only way to describe it. You pick it up and smash somebody on the head with Virginia. I can't wait to hear about Marion because there's so much Marion all over this country, and I don't know what the fuck it's about it's mar mar o r m a r i o n

marion like a name yeah there's one in georgia there's a county in fucking like michigan or some shit it's a common name so there was a lot of people named that that was named after uh it's about four hours and 20 minutes to richmond the capital all the way over there about two and a half hours down to charlotte we want to go there those are the closest to like cities really greensboro's a little closer but i mean that's it and it's about an hour and 45 minutes to vinton virginia which was episode 190 which was way back in september of 2020 which was the one where we want to dig up the basement, and we've never had time to organize that. We have to do that because it's still going. I still want to do it.

We're going to reconstitute that this week, and we're going to figure out a way to do it. And we're going to, we have to get people involved to do and help us with that. But we just didn't have the time to do it. So. Depends on how big that basement is. We got to keep six feet apart. And that's the, yeah, you never know.

Respirators. That's going to be a closed, confined space. I still want the bodies though. There's two i don't want them i just want to know if i want yeah i don't want to keep i don't want to keep them for christ's sake i don't want to take them home and put them in a case the families i'd like to have the closure but anyway we're going to keep them they're ours finders keepers this is in smith county or smythe county i'm not sure s-m-y-t-h so it could be either way but i'm gonna go with smith probably and be sure it could be smith a well yeah we that's true we don't know i've never by the way that kansas you win most complaints over a town

wasn't even the town we were doing no so somewhere Somewhere nearby. Do you expect me to just go? This is what I do in my spare time. I look at atlases and then corresponding Google pronunciations of that town. Make some phone calls, James. In case they come up in a show later on. No, I'm not doing that. So anyway, area code 276, four square miles. It has two actual mottos that are real.

First one, America's coolest hometown hometown i don't believe you i'm not something something's telling me i'm not sure about that but we'll find out it's so cool and then find your opportunity dot dot dot here in smith county that's pretty they're not even trying on that one i'm not your what your opportunity yeah yeah like it's a multi-level marketing right we talked about on the bonus episode culty shit to say it is your opportunity there's an opportunity so history of this town it was uh marion was named in honor of general francis marion there itary War fame. So there's that. They completed the courthouse here in 1834. So that was a, it's pretty early, this town. And it grew pretty quickly, actually.

A lot of commerce was going on here. They put the railroads through here and stuff started cruising. They had salt works, grist mills. Yeah. Once the grist mills are up, Jimmy, it's it's it's all works it's all milk and honey after that the grist it's ready to go you're ready to rock and roll you got something prepared they had ironworks there all sorts of stuff uh during the civil war the local rail system was of course destroyed because this was in virginia and this was kind of on the way to richmond so

shit's getting messed up and um it was rebuilt later on, and the local economy recovered and everything like that. Now, the county site says this right now. This is Smith County site here. It says, quote, if you grew up here, you know about the pace of life, the sense of family and community, and the beauty of Virginia's great southwest. Those things are still the same. Even better now that a new career option may be waiting on you to come and claim it. That's what they're telling you. Come on down is what they're saying here.

Downtown Marion they're very proud of. Really? It's very historical, and apparently it is an official Virginia Main Street community and a national Main Street community, which I guess there are a few Main Streets across the country that have these designations of like a national, like a Disneyland-esque Main Street. Main Street USA kind of thing. I do like that idea of everything central and where you get everything.

That's cool. But when things are like sparsely spread out, that's fun too in a small place like that where you can drive through the country to go get ice cream, drive through the country to go get a lunch on a patio. That's nice too. I just think they like to keep it like it was, whatever. You know what I mean?

Keep this old timey thing and keep it nice because otherwise you can either let it fall apart. It's the original goal. Yeah. You can either let it fall apart or you can abandon it or, you know, those are the other options. So I guess keeping it nice is good. I fucking know. So General Francis Marion Hotel has been completely restored.

And that's a it's it's got a triple A three diamond ranking from what I read here. So there's something for you there. three diamond ranking from what i read here so there's something for you there uh the town hosts a monthly art walk with local artists and musicians held on the second friday of each month in may through december so they're yeah they're trying to make it a lot of small towns have tried to do that like make themselves like artsy now like hey it's an artsy town now it's not just a small town embrace it yeah it's it's every town a little town in Massachusetts has that, like a little artsy center in the Northeast. If it's not Phoenix or Tucson, that's what it is here, too. And even Tucson's focused on artsy shit.

Yeah, that's hilarious because it's just gross there. Reviews of this town. I found a few five stars. People seem to like it here. Here's a five star. They don't live here, though. They visit often, as they say here. Quote, we visit visit often so there you go they definitely said so uh love the farmer's market town parks antique store restaurants and hungry mother state park which is yeah yeah we'll talk

about that also we've met some of the nicest people at the McDonald's and Pizza Hut. Their staff went way beyond to make our grandsons feel welcome. The staff? Yeah, not the town folk just hanging out at the local Pizza Hut. The staff. Ma'am, I think you forgot what Yelp is. I think you've mixed up Yelp and niche. That is hilarious. I've met the nicest 16-year-olds in this town.

Everyone. The town, you know, give or take, whatever, but that Pizza Hut staff is just top notch. You really need to get down there. Pizza Hut and McDonald's. Get yourself a personal pan and have a chat with uh with bob who works behind the counter i feel like you guys would really get a lot tiffany's the topping woman she's tremendous she was so sweet she came around gave us a sample of a pepperoni it was it was phenomenal i've never seen anybody working at mcdonald's over the age of 19 well over the age of 19 or under under the

age of 75 one of the two it's you know it's a bookend kind of a job you know for the most part most of the people and i i'm sure there's some places where that's the only job so exclude that but besides that if you see someone working there who's in the prime of their life who's like you know 36 years old they have a meth problem or they just got out of prison. They just got out. They needed something. They need to have employment to show somebody. They need to show someone a pay stub or else they'll go to jail is what that means.

And it was available. Dreams and aspirations have been hindered by criminal involvement. Yeah. We're not making fun of people that work at McDonald's. If you work at McDonald's, you're nodding along right now, so don't get mad for people who work at McDonald's. They're like, I know who works next to me. Trust me, I get it.

So, yeah, three stars here. We've all worked fast food. We know. Oh, God, yes. So much of it. Yeah. We've done it before. So here's three stars.

Oh, no, wait. Oh, yeah, no, they enjoyed pizza. Oh, no, here, done it before. So here's three stars. Oh, no, wait. Oh, yeah, no, they enjoyed Pizza Hut. Oh, no, here, five stars again. I enjoy the local shops and places to eat. Pizza Hut and McDonald's, tremendous. Unbelievable. Along with all the locally owned businesses and farmer's markets, Marion has a special charm to it. It's a simple hometown, but they also try to have plenty of options to keep you busy in the summer. Good

for that. Here's three stars. Marion is a genuine small town located in southwestern Virginia, surrounded by the Appalachian Mountains. There's always something to explore. From the Appalachian Trail to Hungry Mother State Park, plenty of local restaurants and many more attractions. This town

is slowly growing, and you're always welcome. It's for lovers, James. It doesn't sound like three stars. That sounds like five stars. Sounds like you love it. That's average, as they rated all that. Imagine if he loved the town.

The review would just be like, my pants are exploding with an erection right now. I can't write this anymore. I have to go. So here's one star. This person, not so hot on it. One star.

Quote, this place is filled with completely small-minded individuals. Okay. One star. And then finally, here's three stars, which sounds more like a one star. We've had a three star sound like a five star, a three star. Now it's a one star. Quote, it would be a great town if the drug problem was gone. There also needs to be

be more businesses around yeah that doesn't sound like that those both those reviews were three stars the one before and that one weird um population of this town it's kind of grown slowly it peaked in the 1970s and it's kind of down from there now down from where it was in the 1970s population right now, five thousand five hundred fifty five people. So quadruple fives play that on your lotto today. It is minus twelve point five percent population since 2000. So it's gone down some shrinking. It's shrinking. However, though, that's the actual town proper.

There's about nine thousand more people who live around the town in an unincorporated areas out there that have a Marion mailing address with their zip code. So that so they have a Marion address, even though they don't live in Marion,000 is the actual total population of this area, which is about half the county. This is a small county, very rural. More females than males by a long shot, 53%, which is a lot for a town that has more than 300 people in it. So average age here, median age 48, which is about 10 years older than the normal average. 60 plus is like double the national average here like that right yeah anybody like 60 to 70 that's huge 75 and over is a big population here more every everyone is double it's wild uh less married people than usual which is odd for an older population um their uh divorce rate is like almost double the national average here. So I don't know what's going on.

Widow rate is double as well. That's just because there's a shitload of old people. But I don't know what's up with that. Single with no children, 16%. How about this? That's party time compared to most of our towns here. It's 10% is the average. Race of this town, 86.7 white that's a well above the average

uh 9.3 black that's a couple percentage points below the average uh 1.1 asian 1.3 hispanic so it is black and white it's a southern town a lot of the southern towns are just black and white um we have uh religion here 38.4 percent are religious which is way less than you would think for southwestern rural virginia you would think that would be just teaming with baptists yeah team well i mean it is 14.2 percent the most is baptist baptist so i mean baptists are the catholics of the south as we know there's got to be some catholics here too right because it's close enough to the north not even one percent babe 0.7 percent nothing nope nope nope they do not travel past that mason dixon nope nope no we know where to stay we know to avoid what we call elvis country here that's from the sopranos that's

somewhere where there's no jews or no italians we know to go that's elvis country we avoid that that means there's no and here's 0.0 jewish too so it's like yeah very funny thank you and goodbye no thanks now that we just feel like maybe you're not looking for us to be there that's all it is maybe we're not your favorite yeah that's all you gotta get a lot of not from around here are you and? And it's, you know, feels vaguely threatening. Anyway, last election here, 21 percent voted Democrat, 77 percent Republican, 1.2 percent independent. So very few independents there. We have unemployment rates slightly lower by about half a percentage point of the national.

But the median household income is a lot lower 31 933 is the median household income which national average is almost 58 000 that is that could be elderly fixed income too though you're gonna yeah a lot of that factored into it social security things like that because it is a much older town and the cost of living reflects it though cost of living 100 is average par here it is 70 so it's low housing 35 out of 100 median home cost 103 400 damn you're free that's exceedingly affordable and uh if we you need a slower pace of life you're gonna go on down to the mcdonald's and make some friends really Really like that stuffed crust. Got it.

We have it for you. The Marion, Virginia Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for $694, which is, it seems like not even worth it. You might as well buy a house if you're going to pay that. Your mortgage would be that at a $100,000 house. It should be, yeah. Yeah, so I found a three-bedroom, one-bath, 955-square-foot house.

It's a small house. It is terrifying, Jimmy, absolutely. There is linoleum ripped up to show multiple more layers of linoleum underneath like i don't know where it ends i don't know where it ends jimmy it could be where is the black glue how far do i gotta go you could dig to the center of the earth and you'd be like this one's from the 60s this one's from 1961 it's crazy it's on 0.3 acres so a third of an acre sixteen thousand five hundred dollars though for that i mean what it's a structure on some land for sixteen five you can't really beat it and that's they cut the price three thousand dollars last week so it was nineteen five sixteen five right now cheaper now

cheaper now a used car you could or or a property twenty percent off for christ's sake That is wild I found a four bedroom two bath 2012 square foot house It's not bad You can tell all the floor is wood It's not destroyed Or it's not going to fall through It's very livable It could use an update

The bathrooms are like kind of 90s or whatever But it's very livable Almost half an acre of land. $90,000. Unbelievable. So, I mean, you've got four bedrooms. You've got three kids. You've got bedrooms for them, everything like that.

Four bedrooms and half an acre. $90,000. 2,000 square feet. That's fantastic. Yeah, that's great. Then, here we go. Let's say you're running the grist mill. You're running the salt whatever and the grist mill.

So you're putting it all together. Salty grist, yeah. I found here five bedroom, three bath, 2,969 square feet. This baby is historic and perfectly maintained. Very nice brick house with columns, with big white columns. Big porch. It's in the downtown area, so it's kept beautiful. Everyone's going to walk by.

You can judge them from your porch. $269,900 for that. Unbelievable. Which is still very reasonable. That's less than the national average for a house. Staggering. That's a beautiful home, so it's wild. If you're looking to retire, I guess maybe that's why there's old people there.

That is what I want. Things to do here. Driving, apparently, is one thing. They have something called Back of the Dragon. What's that? And according to, it's a road area, like a driving path that you can go on. Oh, Dragon's Backbone. Got it.

Yeah. It's quickly grown into one of the premier riding roads for motorcycles and sports cars in the nation. It begins in Marion, ending at the town of Tazewell, Virginia. It's a 32-mile route which crosses three mountains, boasts 435 curves, over 3,500 feet in elevation, and picturesque scenery. Awesome. Yeah, it's a cool place to go on a run. Through the Appalachians? Yeah, it's a cool place to it is beautiful going through the mountains and all through there even like west virginia which we've talked about before it's you know west virginia when you're driving

through it like just looking at like a hillside that has like a mountain and a big green field you're like this is gorgeous you have no idea there's meth sheds spread all throughout it gross shit that happens in shadows. Can't tell there's people snorting pills off the backs of toilets as far as the eye can see. Shirtless men in casinos gambling. Can't see the pills through the forest. Can't do it. Can't see the forest through the bottle.

That's the problem. Yeah, that's it. The forest through the rattler. So there is also the hungry mother festival all right sounds like it's just you're down here you hungry mother bring some canned foods for some very unfortunate women i guess i don't know what it is kids hanging off their dresses dirty little like dickens kids with cold dust on their face um but it's an art festival with some music, and that's pretty much it. A mix of folk and bluegrass

music creates a rustic ambiance during the festival. You can see Morrison and Perkins. Logan Stanley, which sounds like it's an investment firm. Trust Logan Stanley with your retirement. Logan Stanley and the Cumberland mountain boys which

now i don't want to give them my money change my mind simplicity cloggers which i don't know if they're clogging the path of simplicity or simplicity or if they clog in a simplistic manner i'm not sure they're like dancing and uh finally the forsaken heroes will close it all out so yeah they're forsaken get there you have to the crafts end at like five o'clock every day the correct the craft hours you have to end it early like beer sales in the seventh inning at a baseball game or else these yeah these ladies will tear this place the fuck up you have no idea it'll be like woodstock 99 they'll just be shit flying and things will be coming down he's overflowing oh god dream catchers people are

gonna get fingered it's awful so we have uh crime rate in this town what we're interested in property crime is high it's high it's almost 50 percent high that's high oh my for a town with a quaint pizza hut that's very high that That's high. Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is also high, but not quite so high. It's about 15% high, so nothing crazy. Still a little bit high for a picturesque Appalachian mountain town. Fueled up on stuffed crust meat lovers. That'll do it, man.

That's what happens. You get fueled up on that. You get the salt and the grist in you, and you go go out you can't help yourself hormones and salted sausages on those pizzas you're teaming you got visions of the craft fair in your head you don't know what to do you're scared that logan stanley is going to waste your money you don't know how to that said let's talk about a murder okay here in this wonderful little appalachian town let's talk it sounds nice james in terms of like what it looks like but yeah i i fucking hate this place already well it sounds like if you don't have to make a living yeah it's a nice place like if you can work from home

somewhere else and make like you know other place kind of money and live here i mean christ that one house is 270 grand and it's like this beautiful whatever that's you can't get a shack in phoenix for 270 no it's not gonna happen yeah that would make sense or if you retire there but if you've got enough money to buy a bunch of schlage locks on your house it should be great it's no problem so for this murder we got to go back in time just a bit we're going going back to June 8th, 1984. Okay. Oh, man.

Think of that time. Fucking Michael Jackson's the most popular thing in the world. America is just America. Well, still, everybody loved it. And Mary Lou Retton is charming the nation with her gold medal win in the Olympics and all the bullshit things in 1984. Hulk Hogan is becoming huge. Vince McMahon is taking over. These are all things that are happening.

But we are going to catch up in a different place. We're going to go up to Vermont. Oh. Vermont, pretty close to the Canadian border. Really? Way up north. Let's start our story out there. This story is going to snake and wander and wow speaking of

snake we're gonna meet a few of those this is a wild story so let's get into this shit here uh the red mills gift shop in woodford vermont which sounds the guy behind the counter 1000 has a flannel shirt on like there's i would bet my life on it and he speaks like the pepperidge farm man probably and top selling thing in this gift shop is uh maple syrup candies for kids i was gonna say other flannel things flannel slippers yeah we got flannel earrings in here if you're here, if you're looking. Place is gorgeous, P.S. Oh, it's beautiful up there. Yeah, this is forest land, and this is beauty up here.

It's gorgeous. So it's not so gorgeous when a 5'4", heavyset man walks in, bearded guy. He looks like a scumbag. I'm not going to even mince words here as we'll talk about he he comes in and holds up our Pepperidge Farm flannel man with a knife at knife point

he holds him up even which is a you know you're that's the bottom of the barrel robber right here you're you're like man things aren't going well for you even in the robbing game is it you're robbing with a knife? What the fuck, sir? I can just run that way, and unless you can catch me, I'm going to get away.

Like, there's no, you can't propel that at all. This is really a bad threat. I'm not very scared of you. I could just hold, like, a book up. It's not the same as if you have a gun. It's just not. A knife is dangerous, but you're thinking this isn't a professional if a guy comes at knife point. But this man is desperate as fuck, that's for sure.

That's the thing. He's desperate, and he looks desperate, and he looks dirty, and he looks like he maybe hasn't showered recently. He's got a knife and everything like that. He ends up stealing $80 from Mr. Pepperidge farm there gift shop and which is it's going to come back and bite him because Pepperidge farm remembers. We all know that. Watch out. So he was he drove away in a sky blue 1978 Ford Ranger XLT with personalized license plates. By the way, what the fuck?

It was like pe's it was something like initials or something whatever but it wasn't just a regular license plate it was like a four or five letter thing with a dash no don't steal a car with a personalized license plate out of someone's driveway especially they they'll notice it's gone and they did notice it was gone uh but the problem is it was gone in North Carolina. That's where this truck disappeared from. And it wound up in Vermont stealing shit from the gift shop. Wound up in Vermont with stealing shit from the gift shop.

And he's not even from North Carolina. He actually came from Boydton, Virginia is where he came. There's one thing in Boydton, Virginia, and that is a maximum security prison. Really? Yes. So he ends up, this is five miles from the Canadian border, by the way. Almost there. He is apprehended by a part-time town police chief.

It's a part-time force. They, you know weekdays from eight to four they patrol and they go home and that's it and then they go work yeah that may be if they're friendly they're friendly enough only so that's who apprehends this man and uh when they apprehend him he they grab him he's the guy who fits the description. There's the truck. And he says, quote, Hi, I'm Lem and I'm wanted in Virginia. That's all he'll say. I'm Lem and I'm wanted in Virginia. when he was younger and he'd get all worked up and say lemmy adams so they nicknamed him lem because that happened so often which is a lot uh is that the same thing with this guy no this is his name this is his birth his birth name as we find out is lem davis tuggle jr tuggle tuggle t-u-g-g-l-e and when they apprehend him like i said he's five's 5'3", or 5'4". He's a heavy set man. I'll show you a picture of him in a minute.

Trucker hat, vest, and on his arm, a tattoo that says, born to die. Hell yeah. Scum like us. Baby, we were born to die. Die. This is born to run played on a banjo. That's what it is. And we're going to rob that Vermont gift shop. And we're going to go up to Canada where they don't extra die.

People on death row, baby, we just gotta run away. Eat some Tim Hortons all the way, I say. Well, I love this. Scum like us, baby, we were born to die. Oh, Christ. Sorry. I couldn't help myself. This is him, Jimmy. Hold on. Let all right scoot and turn like yep he looks like the home depot caricature guy

it's it's fucking insane this guy's though he looks exactly like you think he would look vest and just a vest and everything man he looks like he looks like they arrested him just hanging out at a truck stop doesn't even own a truck just hanging like a truck a trucker groupie is what he looks like so he is lem davis tuggle jr 31 years old at this moment in time. He was driving a pickup truck that was stolen from Afton, North Carolina, which is in northern North Carolina. And he's not the only one missing, by the way. There's a few other ones here, as we'll talk about. He escaped from prison with five other inmates.

And they are all scattering out throughout the country. Oh, by the way, all six are death row inmates. Perfect. Six death row inmates. Just like dispersing. Like you dropped your ant farm and it broke in there everywhere. Seven in the 90s or in the 90s. Yeah.

Were they all death row? I believe so. Oh, no. Some of them were life. I mean, it may as well be that yeah i had like 167 life terms or whatever yeah he's he's got nothing to lose none of them were ever getting out so who the hell is lem and why is he born to die let's talk about it well i mean we know that he is we know he's born to die that we do know this is information is the only information we have on him

and he's probably um not probably never did a stint in the nba i'm going to say based on his physical stature other than that i don't know so he is from southwestern virginia originally um he uh there's a history of mental illness in his family nothing too pervasive nothing worse than you or I have nothing like everyone in my family is schizophrenic like it's nothing like that or anything his father is disabled though but I never

found out what his disability was just that he had a disability and was disabled and that affected him in some way shape or form he ended up your dad's not uh being your your hero if he's confined to a wheelchair or has some other hindrance yeah it definitely it causes issues it's which sucks too which i mean not all the time because like i knew a kid growing up who i was friends with from kindergarten all the way through

school and his dad was in a wheelchair and it was never even an issue yeah he just thought it was cool to drive his dad's car because he had that the thing on the steering wheel like that yeah yeah he's like this fucking thing's dope i love driving my dad's car yeah he thought that was cool but otherwise it was it was fine but it affected him different and this is also in a different time period he's born lem's born in 1952 so in the 50s anything outside of perfectly like normal and great was like look at that leave it to beaver it's yeah fucking it's it's frowned upon ward's not in a wheelchair right hugh downs wouldn't do this too not hugh down was that his name no hugh beaumont hugh

beaumont hugh downs is the news guy hugh beaumont wouldn't do this to us hugh downs wouldn't either no he probably wouldn't either he's a goddamn hero so uh apparently he was hospitalized in a near coma as an infant for something i don't know if he hit his head or what the deal was but he was born to die was born to die was in almost never even got to that point as he was in a near coma as an infant then apparently as a young child he suffered a head injury uh that rendered him unconscious for a decent amount of time as well so he's got that going for him which is pretty common in people we talk about here and impulse control and all that shit so he uh he says that he remembers his hometown as a place where he grew up in poverty

and where his neighbors shunned him yeah so um that's what happened yeah he said they were the trash family with the handicapped dad as he put it you know my dad's handicapped and you know he didn't say disabled then he i'm sure i'm sure he didn You know, my dad's handicapped. You know, he didn't say disabled then. I'm sure he didn't say worse. My dad's all crippled up. You know, all scared up from last week is where we got. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts.

I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing.

This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell.

She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager,

but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot,

and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. That from, so, yeah, and he said that everybody looked at them like trash, and he said that he began drinking heavily at the age of 10. There you go.

Probably too early. Yeah, I mean, putting it away. If you're going to drink it all at 10, you might as well pound them. I don't think he was just having like a martini at the end of the day. Mom, let me tell you something school today was a bear if you could fix me a gin martini of course stirred mom jesus we're not animals let's go here it was one of those days i'll have it dirty thank you so much i think he was like i found some old crow under my dad's mattress you want some i think it was

more something like that um also there's an old crow in here. So if you pluck it, you can have dinner. Maybe we could eat him, too. He said, quote, as long as I wasn't drinking, I was a nice guy. When I was drinking, anything could happen. Now, up until he does anything to anybody else, you feel terrible for him. He comes from poverty. His dad's disabled.

His family's got some i know he has at least two sisters as well mix in this mix um you know obviously you feel terrible for any kid that's drinking heavily at 10 number one why the fuck do they have a reason to drink at 10 that's probably bad and number two any 10 year old that doesn't have enough direct supervision to keep from being an alcoholic. It's probably a problem. You feel terrible for that kid and you feel bad for him all the way up until he hurts somebody. And then it's like, well, now it's on you.

But now you've you've put it out in the world and now you we don't feel bad. We feel bad for that person now. So, yeah, he said, though, when he's drinking, anything could happen. His aunt, Catherine Norris, says that Lem was a friendly and good-natured guy, despite being raised in a hard environment. And she also testifies later on that his parents

quote, raised him the best they could. Took him to church and raised him in church. I don't think, obviously, that had little effect here. That seems lazy. Yeah, that seems little to no effect here i think he needed that this parent's idea of raising children was go with god which is well yeah lazy hey our fifth graders drunk again well jesus take him to church well maybe not maybe take him to

church after you've done other things that to help him but yeah maybe that's in addition to as part of a balanced breakfast possibly but not but not exclusive, you know, whatever. So how about nurture? That's a good idea. Yeah, that's it. Another his aunt, Eunice Burgess, said that he was a nice kid, but had a hard time growing up because his father was disabled. And also that his father was a mean guy and a controlling guy as well uh another one uh he had a foster parent eventually so that's how this that's how he's out of that home eventually yes at some point he does not live with his parents i don't know when that is i just know that he has a foster parent which uh again if you have two live parents, that's a bad sign that things aren't going well at home.

She also said that Tuggle was, quote, good-natured. He's a good-natured young man. I think everybody is good-natured at some point, but you have vices, and things create other personality flaws. Well, we're all, you know, you ever see an old tree and there's like dings on it and shit like a buck came up and rubbed its fucking things on it like that's up everybody's that everybody's like just a big beautiful oak yeah but you're you're just an end of all of the things that have happened to you that's all you are and you can't see it but it's all there you know whatever your your problems are uh lem claims to have military service at some point which i find difficult to believe because if he did have

military service it was very very very very briefly really because it could have been forced to but that's yeah he might have had to go to like a military school by the court or something like that but or the draft because he's of the age that would be draftable, right? That's what I find odd here is that we'll get catch up with him in September of 1971, which he's 18 years old. So it seems like if he was in the military, he'd be over there at that point. And if not, he would be he wouldn't have been like released just to be you're all done with your service at that point right and if not he would be he wouldn't have been like released just to be you're all done with your service at this point he would have either been kicked out or or he wasn't in it at all at the you know there's no other way but september 12th 1971

police receive an anonymous phone call in the small sleepy sleepy virginia town and they end up uh they're being directed in this phone call to go to a vacant farmhouse near seven mile road that sounds yeah creep of vacant farm and apparently it's a really rural place it's an old farmhouse that's been abandoned and that was the only like reason to go out in that direction was to that farm that's no longer there so it is like horror movie level terrifying where they find her uh when they enter this house police find a terrible surprise they find a young woman there uh mrs shirley mullins bricky is her name she is 18 years old oh and uh married already which i mean it's 1971 and it's virginia so kids got married in high school yeah she's a young young woman here this is awful uh they find her lying in a bed like a soiled mattress they

found in the corner that hobos have been using i'm sure and uh with a piece of cloth around her throat and her face under a pillow um is where they found her and uh when they do an autopsy they found out that she was raped and strangled to death and beaten as well but raped and strangled mostly um what seems to be the most popular way to die in the 70s yeah it really seems to be the most common thing to do in 1971 uh yeah it's it's absolutely horrible here they say that their number one suspect is a young man named lem davis or lem davis tuggle jr of the same road that this house is on. He lives down the street.

That's where he lived on the same street. They found him in Baltimore. He had stolen a car and taken off to Baltimore and where he was busted for stealing a car and held on car theft charges. And that's where they ended up finding him when they were doing a search for him on APB or whatever. They know we got him. Here he is. So they bring him back to Virginia to have a little chat with him there.

And, yeah, they talk to him and they show they have some some some witnesses here that show that the girl went to the house with a male companion early Saturday night. They were she was seen going in that direction with a male companion early that Saturday night. And they said that the investigation wasn't launched until an anonymous phone call directed them there. It's pretty fucked up. It's pretty fucked up. So the witness picks out Lem Tuggle Jr. as the man that the witness saw with this young woman, with Bricky. And yeah, they charge him with it. Now, the trial comes around in March 72, and Lem's statement is introduced here, the first day of the trial he claims that he may have done it but if

he did he's not unaware of it that that that old trope he claimed that he blacked out from a combination of alcohol and drugs and then i black up there's a body there was a body next to me and it said born to die on my arm and i was like damn i had a fucking jesus i made bad decisions last night didn't i todd phillips is gonna make a killing with this movie god damn it jay check check the trunk for an asian feller check just make sure he ain't in there because i just i don't trust it bet there's a tiger in the bathroom and a baby in the closet here we go again where's mac tyson anybody got it we all know where he is right now make three parts of this motherfucker

so uh jesus christ he said that he just regained consciousness and when he came to holy shit he was lying next to an uh an unclothed dead girl yeah oh what happened how did i get here what you know what could have possibly it's not a good story no he's like the senator and the godfather too we were what i better like he's i don't know what happened so uh the prosecutor has a different take on the whole thing he calls it absolutely cold-blooded uh and then he stole a truck and tried to flee with his ultimate destination being canada apparently from what he had told other people on his journey so uh the jury is composed of five men and seven women and the prosecutor in his closing said that he wouldn't have tried to flee to canada in a stolen car if he was innocent

most innocent people don't then commit another crime to compound what they've done that you know even if they run away oh no i don't want it they think they're gonna think it's me they're not doing it you know in a stolen car with a knife to someone else's throat that's different but that is not i mean you can't really wait for your uh fill out an application wait for your paycheck you gotta get money now i get it that's true i mean that's why they have those uh stores now, the payday loans. It keeps this on a... There you go.

So he, the prosecutor said that this crime warrants the death penalty, goddammit. Yeah. And verdict comes in and drum roll, guilty of second degree murder. Oh. Second degree murder. He's young, Jimmy. he's only 18 so they look at him he's a little guy because we saw him later that picture i showed you he's 31 with a beard and fat and he's got you know beer stains on his shirt that is fascinating 18 fresh faced it's a different

story and they feel like oh they hear about his background and he's this he's trash we all know about him and now these poor kids so they feel bad for him unthreatening yep and they say he's only five three he's poor little guy they sentence him you sir may fuck off 20 years in prison so 20 years that is 1972 he is sentenced to 20 years He's sent away sometime in the 70s. He escapes from prison. Oh, briefly, briefly. This isn't his other one. A brief escape only to be recaptured relatively quickly and sentenced to you, sir. Fuck off an extra two years in jail.

So that's what he gets. 22 under his belt. He's got 22. So you would imagine he'll be in there for a while. But what's half a 22? 11. That's what he gets. He's got 22 under his belt. He's got 22. So you would imagine he'll be in there for a while, but what's half of 22? 11. That's 11. So 11 would be 1983. Okay.

Early 1983, talking like very beginning of the year, early January 1983, Lem is paroled. Yeah. Back on the street with you, mister. We feel like you've reformed yourself. Rapist murderer. Yes, you're now, but you're an older guy now, and you're more mature. Maybe it was just a problem, but we feel like you've reformed yourself. So, Lem, there you go, out on the street with you.

So about four months go by, we'll say, where he's cool. He's doing his Lem thing. He is accused of raping a 15-year-old girl at some point in here, but they never had any proof enough to charge him. But there is accusations flying all around town that he raped a 15 year old more than likely. Yeah. And also, while he escaped from prison, there was a huge thing about a lot of people thought he killed a particular young lady. But it turns out that he the dates didn't match up. But for years, people blamed it on, said that it was Lem Tuggle until they finally said that he was in prison that day.

Couldn't have happened. He didn't escape until a week later. They caught him, and then she was still alive for another week. I don't remember what it was. But either way, he is hanging out, possibly raping teenagers. We're not sure. Scumbag is what we're getting at he's good for it uh if you if you base it on past history yeah uh i mean he's only been out four months now the young lady he met earlier miss bricky uh mrs bricky i should say she he met her

at an american legion dance in marion yeah and then dumped her out on the farmhouse, in the farmhouse on the farm road there. So on Saturday night, May 28th, 1983, Lem decides that he needs some social action. You know, he needs to maybe find a lady. Get out of the house. Get out of the house. Yeah. Yeah.

So where's he heading to? Where are you thinking? He said, where's the old American Legion in this town? I'm going to head on down there. Yeah. heads on james yeah i would think you'd be banned from the american legion after killing you know never you're banned from all nationwide american legion locations right by the way for people in other countries because we have a lot of foreign listeners how would you explain an american legion lodge to a foreigner me i would say it is where retired or uh discharged honorably uh veterans go to drink very cheap beer and be able to smoke

indoors and sing karaoke isn't that more of a vfw or is that what american legions are it's the same thing okay they're the same thing that's what i was wondering yeah because we've done when we first started comedy i've i've done vfw comedy gigs they're hilarious because you get old ladies on oxygen tanks smoking they're they love filthy they're the greatest love those old ladies ah they're the best okay they've seen shit james and that's why they are willing to laugh at uh things that everybody else considers dark because they've uh some of them have put people out of their misery because they were too far gone you know what i mean that's that's true some of them have put people out of their misery because they were too far gone. You know what I mean? That's true.

Some of them are hardcore. They've seen shit. They've seen hell. I remember all the other comics were going up and being very gentle and trying to tell Jesus, what's my nice stuff? They're talking about puppies and shit. And these ladies aren't doing nothing. They're drinking whiskey and smoking and they're like 80 years old with oxygen tanks.

I got up there and I'm just like filthy. And they're going, yeah. They're drinking whiskey and smoking, and they're like 80 years old with oxygen tanks. I got up there, and I'm just like filthy, and they're going, yeah. They're clapping. I'm like, they wanted filthy. Best people, man. Best comedy audience by far. That's it. And send the mic out at the end of it. I said, thank you.

And to the other guy, I went, they wanted filthy. Give them filthy. Give them what they want. So Lem shows up looking like pretty much he is in that picture that i showed you uh with his born to die tattoo on his arm which we say that nowadays people have any kind of crazy tattoo on their arm in 1983 sailors and and bikers had tattoos and convicts that's who had tattoos back i mean yeah like the worst people yeah and if you did have a tattoo it was like you know something of like uh it wasn't born to die probably unless

that was a very specific type of person so when he gets to the american legion lodge and marion uh to attend this dance that they're having that night he upon arrival he walks up to the person who's i guess checking people in or you know know, I don't know, the doorman. I don't know what's going on. And he says, hey, can I check my gun? Check your gun? What is this, a casino in Tombstone? What the fuck are you talking about?

Check your gun. That's wild. You going to play some Pharaoh? What are you talking about? No, you can't check your fucking gun. Blow somebody up that wildcat's ass? No. No no you can't check your fucking somebody up that wildcat's ass no no you can't check your gun stupid and they told him no we don't have a gun check what year is this this isn't can no put this behind the bar for me yeah i hit my head again i thought it was 1883 instead of 19 oh jesus christ fuck god damn it oh cool i forgot about van halen excellent i forgot all

about them they are impressive so they told him no and uh he was told you can't take it in with you and now that i know you have it i'm not gonna let you go in so you know maybe go lock it in the trunk of your car or take it home or anything but bring it to the dance at the american legion hall there's another post about five miles away. You can go there and not tell them about it. I don't know if the dance is going on. That's the fucking funny part, too, is he's just going out, going to the American Legion. Not if I check my gun.

It's just mind boggling of a weird thing to how much gunplay takes place at the American Legion Hall. Feels like that was 1983 maybe it was just his opener james and he that was like how he leads into them going oh yeah what kind is it and then we just talk about guns for the next 30 minutes maybe well he leaves briefly leaves the building you know they don't watch him he just takes off and when he returned he said that's taken care of all right so they assumed it's in his car and his trunk and uh he he comes on in and uh here he is mingling hell yeah we're just grooving over here the tunes are playing it's karma chameleon is on and your family is military because that's what it is you go with your your family that's military or whatever because i've been with my my dad uh i encourage you to go to one uh and see the fuckery and craziness that happens in these places. It's a private property.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so much fun. Yeah, they're having a good time in there. So, yeah, well, he's in there. He's dancing. He's grooving. Oh, yeah. Let me find me some ladies.

Hell, yeah. There's always one of them. what do ladies love more than a paroled rapist murderer who's five foot three 230 pounds with a born to die tattoo on his fucking forearm who will the catch that's a catch right there i'll tell you what well he does find somebody to hang out with here. And it's a woman named Jesse Geneva Havens. Yeah. And she's 52 years old. Hell yeah, she is. Jesse.

So Jesse came with two friends to the dance to hang out and meet people. It's a small town and there's no Tinder. So, I mean, if you want to meet people, you go to the American Legion Lodge dance because that's where people are that night. Social hall. That's it, man. So she goes there and they hang out. And Tuggle comes up and introduces himself. And he says, I'm David Tuggle, which is not his middle name. His name is Davis, Lem Davis Tuggle.

But that says he's going off a familiar thing here. David Tuggle. And he sits at the table with the three women and dances with all three of them through the night he's like you ladies mind if i be your you know gentleman escort tonight and he's just but this i it was supposed to say born to dance but the guy was hey he was hammered and he got like he he did an i instead of an a and i was like you know what fuck it just do born to die because this shit's hurting anyway i don't want to end it early there's less letters than that it was supposed to be born to dance i'm sorry it was born to disco and i was like you know what i said to cut it off right there instead of an e just put an i because it hurts yeah i'm late i'm late for something had to pay by the letter i thought he said five

apparently he said nine so we're gonna go with these we're just going born to die yeah i do though appreciate disco a great deal so they he's dancing and grooving the dance ends at 1 a.m closes this bitch down my god closing down the Legion, man. This is wild. Let's stay here and do the fish fry. Oh, baby. We got to stay here for the cod tomorrow. So the two friends, Havens, the two friends she came with, they leave together. She leaves with old Lem.

Oh, all right. So Jesse and Lem leave together. But they leave under the agreement of she tells, Jesse tells her friends, he's going to drive me home. Yeah. Give me a ride home. Yeah. So she told him that she had to go directly home. And she said, like, I can't go any whatever.

If you want to talk for a few more minutes, cool. Well, not only that, she has her granddaughter staying with her. Oh, shit. So she needs to go granddaughter staying with her. Oh, shit. So she needs to go directly home. Yeah. She's 52. She has grandkids, for Christ's sake. So she's with his granddaughters at home.

So this is grandma needs to get home now, basically. And he says, okay, fine. As her two friends leave the parking lot, they see that Jesse was standing next to the passenger side of his car waiting for the door to get unlocked and Tuggle was in the back opening the trunk. And we know it's in the trunk, obviously, from before. Now they said Jesse Havens was wearing blue

jeans, a blue and white striped blouse and moccasin type shoes. Yeah, that stylish. Yeah, like just a lady going out to American Legion having a good time so shortly thereafter after they leave a state trooper named gn smith stopped tuggles car and uh because he was weaving on the highway probably because he was shit-faced i assume probably because he closed down the legion with two dollar beers so fuck yeah no shit but apparently the uh he

doesn't get there's no sobriety it's 1983 in rural virginia so it's like let me see you again tonight he would go you all right to drive that's what they used to do back i'm not even kidding and they'd go you're right to drive and if you go no i'm all right i'll be all right i'm just going up they go all right then And then you'd go. It's the way it fucking was. It's the middle of the night on a rural road. You want to hit a tree? That's up to you.

There's nobody else out here who gives a shit. Go ahead. That's how it was. Yeah. You all right to drive now? All right. You sure? All right.

Y'all have a good night now. Okay. So he stops him for weaving, toggles driving, and the trooper observed what he described. His words, not mine, so please, this is from the police report. Quote, a large middle-aged white female sitting in the front seat of the automobile

right next to the driver. So the police officer thought there was some hanky-panky going on, and the swerving was about more than about alcohol that's why he made this he made a specific note to say right next to the driver not in like her save the road head until you get home

that kind of thing yeah that's what that's we're not saying that's what happened but that's what the police officer was saying I'm saying he also closed down the American Legion Hall maybe they were doing like probably the cost of the drive. That's what I'm saying. He could have just been like sit next to me like 50 style like they would do.

And, you know, arm around you while whatever. Well, well, he just met her tonight. She's a grandma who's going to her grandchildren. The officer is probably wrong. He's probably wrong. And if he's not wrong, who fucking cares? Blow all the people you want. I don't care.

Knock yourself out. So either way, that's irrelevant so she he observed her as wearing a blue green or aqua blouse and he determined the trooper said he does determine that he wasn't intoxicated in other words you all right to drive yeah all right then all right then with zero scientific evidence i yeah determined he's fine i determined he was not intoxicated. And Tuggle drove away in the direction of Hubble Hill Road. Now, Jessie Havens never comes home that night. She never comes home.

Granddaughters are there. She's not. Never comes home. They wait all the way till 6 p.m. the following evening before she's still not found. She hasn't contacted her family. And she's got a family. She's a responsible person. She's watching her granddaughter.

She's got stuff going on. So they're like, where the fuck is Jesse? And so they call police and notify her, notify them that she is missing. Now, it is at this moment in time that uh the early morning of june 2nd 1983 so this is a few days later that was may 28th that happened she's been missing for the police have known about her missing for about three days now we'll say so june 2nd 1983 a state trooper named R.M. Freeman was dispatched to an area on Highway 81 in Pulaski County to look for a black pickup truck equipped with a camper. He was told that there's a black pickup truck equipped with a camper. He arrives and the state trooper stopped a truck that was a black pickup truck with a camper and Tuggle is the driver.

So he's there. Now, the trooper asks him, hey, have you been near the Exxon station in Riverside there? Tuggle's response was, quote, yes, I robbed it. Oh, yeah, the one. Oh, you mean the Riverside? Oh, yeah, I just robbed that one. I thought you meant the one over on the other side on 45. I didn't rob that one.

I did get gas there before, but then I robbed the other one. I figured you're asking more about the robbery than the gas, probably. But, yeah, you mean that one, right? This much police interaction and those punishments is just giving up that information. He said, yes, I robbed it. The money's in my pocket the guns in the truck so the case is made here you go i have selected a jury that all seems to find me guilty y'all can just we can wrap this up right now tonight and get it over with if i'll just

head on back like he couldn't have made it more easy for everybody here um so they take possession of a 25 caliber automatic weapon and uh that is going to be stored for later for the police and that'll come in handy later on so while he's taking tuggle to the pulaski county sheriff's office tuggle also says um hey uh y'all might want to talk to me about a missing person. Also, there's a report of a missing person. And he said that he's probably going to have to have a, quote, long talk with the Smith County authorities later on. I'm probably going to have to have a long talk with them because there's another thing going on. So this guy's like, whatever, dude, I arrested you for a stolen car and robbing a fucking Exxon.

Yeah, but I just want to clear up all the cases. I'm good. I'd like to get some paperwork sitting around. I'd like to start anew. And honestly, I know y'all got families. You probably want to get home and do things. Maybe you got plans this weekend. I figure just make it easier for everybody.

If I just tell you about everything. I'll look for you. Save a lot of time investigating. body if i just tell you about everything i've done for you save a lot of time investigating so tuggle waved his rights uh once he gets back to smith county ray waves his rights um here um and tells the officer that he could find jesse havens over a bank at a certain spot on hubble hill road near seven mile ford not road it's seven mile ford which is the same road that the first shirley shirley bricky was found and where he used to live as well okay he said that's where you can find jesse havens they asked him what happened to

havens because they they're just like well okay well you can find her there what happened to her you know i guess admit it if you're going to say it. He responded, quote, I don't know, but she's there. Oh, boy. Not sure why she's there, but for some reason she's there. I do a lot of blacking out and I wake up and there's bodies around. It's just it's the strangest damn thing. I just I drink like a mixture.

Well, I mean, it's antifreeze and ether. It's a strong it's antifreeze and ether. It's a strong, it's a cocktail, really. But when I wake up, boy, woof, I don't remember what happened. And people are dead. They're just dead. So he told the officer at that point that he did not wish to discuss the matter any further until he spoke with his attorney. He said, quote, from past experience, I would like to talk to an attorney. I'll probably tell you the full story later, though.

So just not in the mood right now to get it all out. You know how that goes. Past experience. I'll probably tell you later. I'm not sure. We'll think about it. So about 9.30 a.m. on June 2nd,

the investigator goes to the place where he said that Havens would be found. And he gave him very specific directions to this place, exactly where it would be this many steps over here, about 20 feet that way. Yikes. And what he finds is, uh,

he finds Jesse Havens, uh, the way he's describes it. He finds her with, and there's a quote from the report, quote, clad in jeans down around her knees, a blue and white striped blouse pulled up to about the armpits and black silk underwear rolled down to the pants. Damn it. So pretty good sign of a rape, James. Pretty good sign of that.

And obviously a murder. Pretty good sign of that and obviously a murder. A portion of her pantyhose were, quote, sticking out of the top of her jeans and one of her legs was out of the pantyhose. So that means he had taken her out there. This is less than one mile from where Shirley Bricky was found. Less than a mile, Jimmy. Have some fucking imagination, at least. Remember we talk about the dismount all the time? Not that you want anybody to get away with anything but i want people to try yeah even if it's a bad thing he's an asshole trying to get away though that's what i mean while he was trying

to run to canada they caught him in a stolen truck in baltimore on his way to canada that's what he said so uh you're probably wondering how the fuck does he get to Vermont where he robs a gift shop? Oh, we'll get there. Don't worry. So the autopsy here, the evidence, this poor woman, Jesse Havens, was brutalized. This is terrible. This is god awful, man. Her body had abrasions and bruises on the left frontal area of her forehead. So, I mean, he was beating her.

A small abrasion on the right frontal area of the forehead, an abrasion on the neck, a bite mark on the lower inner quadrant of the right breast, like a bat, like a broke the skin, bad, nasty bite mark, a Ted Bundy, a Ted Bundy kind of bite mark, a bite mark there, a number of small bruises on the upper inner aspect of the right arm and a bruise on the left thumb and right wrist. So struggle marks also sustained and this is pretty rough. Everybody we have a second here. If maybe want to fast forward a minute ahead. If you don't want to hear medical terminology, she also suffered a large bruise on the upper and inner thigh bruises on the vaginal vault at the posterior aspect near the bottom. So that's a very medical. It's the medical examiner's report. And oh, yeah, a gunshot wound to the chest.

Jesus. A 25 caliber gunshot wound. Fascinating. Hey, interesting, right? Something that's special, yeah. Also, according to the medical examiner, the bruises of the vagina indicate penetration of the vaginal vault by something, a penis, a finger, an object, something. He also testifies later on that both the bite mark on the breast and the bruising around the vagina occurred while Havens was alive and moving around.

So the bite mark had pulls away. He's trying to get away from him. This poor woman. Also, he found that no semen or sperm were found in the vaginal area, but that semen was found in the rectum instead.

He says, obviously, we don't need to the rectum instead. Uh, he says, obviously we don't need to get into his conclusion. Obviously we know what his conclusion is there. So, uh, right away, a forensic odontologist they find examines the bite mark on her right breast and compared it with models of Tuggle's teeth and concluded quote,

with all medical certainty, these marks on the body of Mrs. Havens were made by the teeth of Mrs. Tuggle and and then he opined that she was alive and moving around and trying to get away when she was bitten so this is a fucking disgusting Ted Bundy kind of a murder

this is this is awful absolutely awful beaten shot and obviously just fucking brutalized here this is disgusting do you blame the system i mean for well you you want to you want to think that an 18 year old or or younger is incapable of of continuing this kind of lifestyle yeah for fuck's sake well you want to be able to think that if you take an 18 year old and you put him in a system that's meant to rehabilitate him that an 18 year old would be your prime candidate that if you keep them for a decade that you can probably rehabilitate them in

10 years whatever the fuck happened that made him do yes you keep him for more than half his life when he's in there you can probably change whatever happened in the last half of his life to cause this is what you would imagine you'd think so i guess that's the theory here but somehow it has made it so much worse it's made it worse it just made he's this guy would be a serial killer if he got if he could figure out to not dump the bodies on the same fucking road that he lived on when he was a kid and then tell everybody about it as soon as he gets caught for shit when When they pulled Ted Bundy over he didn't say, yeah, hi, I'm Ted Bundy. I'm going to talk to you about some missing people. He was like, I don't know

what you're talking about. I have rope because you know, you got to tie things sometimes. I have bushes in my yard. They get out of control. I drive a Beetle. Look at this thing. It's big as shit. Obviously I'm going to need a tow. Yeah, you got to tie things together sometimes.

Isn't the definition of a serial killer two or more on on different occasions i think it's three i think it's three and uh yeah with this guy if there was any more i think he would have probably told everybody about it and uh but if this guy got away with it there would be a lot more oh for fuck yeah he was he lasted four months yeah four months before he went doing before doing horrible horrible something that he clearly had fantasized about for his whole time in prison there's no way that that wasn't what he was thinking about for the last 11 years if they did it right away like that we should absolutely uh if it's not two if it is three we should probably make it two because that's yeah you keep doing it two in

the pattern like this especially in an escalating pattern where he's like i want to bite it hard now too i want to bite my victim and then i'm gonna i'm gonna go in other avenues and do i understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that i killed my wife hi my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max,

starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just

garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts

you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus and the wondery app or on apple podcasts my business now right after he gets arrested the sheriff comes out the smith county sheriff jerry archer said he was pissed off that he was out in the first place yeah he said that uh quote it should bother anybody that this happened and he said that he uh he tuggle exploited the system to do this and you know he was, and he's a rapist. He's going off that he's mad about the whole thing, which is understandable. The guy got out and did the same thing in your town again. So pre-trial, there's some interesting stuff that happens.

This is just the beginning of this iceberg, man. The tip is going deep to the root right here. This is wild shit that comes off. Several, you'll see. I don't want to give anything away so pre-trial the trial counsel uh his counsel files for he wants a bunch of experts wants a pathologist a forensic seriologist a ballistics examiner by the way they matched the 25 that he was caught with to the murder weapon so there you go he wants a bullet his own ballistics person and an odontologist as well to examine the teeth marks okay uh he wants all of this stuff the trial court denies his motion for money to do this because if you're a public defender and you're

indigent the court has to approve the state's costs for this, and they don't approve any of that stuff for him. So his counsel later files for a motion for the appointment of a mental health professional to examine his sanity, Tuggle's sanity at the time of the offense, and his competence to stand trial. They grant that motion and order a state mental health professional to examine him with respect to the two issues. Now, one of the guys, Dr. Arthur Centaur, uh, he interviewed Tuggle and informed the court that in, uh, you know,

his opinion here that Tuggle was sane and could assist in his own defense. Uh, he also informed the court that he had a formed an opinion as to Tuggle's future dangerousness, as he put it in quotes. That's his, uh, very specific terminology that he used. So Tuggle's attorney was notified of this opinion about two weeks before the trial,

and so he immediately requested the appointment of an independent psychiatrist because if they ask for an evaluation and the state's guy says he's fine, you've got to get your own guy. That way at least there can be a discussion, or if your own guy says no, he's fine, then you go's guy says he's fine you got to get your own guy right that way at least there can be a discussion and or if your own guy says no he's fine then you go i guess he's fucking fine you have nowhere else to go so the trial court denies the request this is a capital murder case this is a death penalty case you better cover your fucking ass yeah uh the trial counsel then offered to pay for the the psychiatrist out of his own funds and requested the court transfer Tuggle to a county jail in the community where this expert is.

Can you at least transfer him just for a week to where we put our person and we'll pay for it? And they went, no, we're not doing that either. So the minimal cost of transferring him to a state, to a county facility, they won't even foot. So it's tough. So several weeks before the trial, his counsel moves for a change of venue due to the extensive publicity that the case had received. And it did. I found shitloads of newspaper articles. This guy is all over the place.

It's a horrible rape murder of a grandmother in a fucking small town. Who could shut up talking about that? Especially back then, sexual nature of it, the bite marks, it's very lurid, and it's gonna, this is like movie of the week type of shit here. VFW and it's grandma? Jesus, fuck, man.

Man, there are people knitting and just can't wait to hear the next fucking, the next thing. So they said that some of the publicity said that he'd previously been convicted of second degree murder. And one article mistakenly indicated that the conviction also included rape. The first time he didn't get convicted of rape, only second degree murder, because there wasn't enough proof of a rape on the first one. So that's why that's out there. The article also repeated the information that he was a suspect in the rape of a 15-year-old girl for which he wasn't charged as well.

That's not good. Don't talk about that. We talked about that. Jeez, God damn it. Yeah. So the jury panel in this case was chosen from a panel that had previously been called for duty in other cases during the same month because it's a small town. There's not enough people on the night before the trial. One of the lawyers learned from a call from a I'm sorry, the judge or somebody in the

court learned from a call from a potential jury juror that some of the members of the panel from which the Tuggle jury was selected had been contacted by members of the sheriff's department and by Terry Hawthorne, who was a reporter for the Smith County News, apparently concerning their performance as jurors in a murder trial that had occurred a few days earlier. They want to talk to him about the murder trial they just did, and they're about to go do another murder trial. Yeah. In that trial, the defendant had been convicted of first degree murder charge and the prosecutor said he was mad that it wasn't a capital murder charge that was a death penalty eligible. So that's the way that worked. Now, Tuggle's counsel told the trial court that some of the jury had been contacted about that sort of shit. Could we get a new panel maybe?

And the judge said, no, we're going to use these same people okay he also uh tuggles tuggles uh lawyer asked if he could ask the jury members what their specific experience was about the pre-trial publicity and you know and who they've been contacted by and all that. And the court said, no, can't do that. Jesus Christ, you guys. The first 20 members of the panel were called in and the eight panel, eight panel members in the presence of the other panel members immediately indicated that they had formed an opinion already as to his guilt. Yeah. These eight panel members were excused, but all the other ones heard them say that. members were excused but all the other ones heard them say that however the 20 panel uh member panel that was the rest of the people they picked basically who didn't say i think he's guilty already but five members of the jury that ends up serving indicated they had been contacted

before the trial either by a member of the sheriff's department or the local media 10 members indicated they had read articles about the Tuggle case, including those that referred to a prior homicide and contained the false report about the previous rape conviction. Six acknowledged they remembered details from the newspaper accounts, and five had served as jurors in the earlier trial and had been contacted

by the media or sheriff to explain their lenient verdict in the case, the last murder trial. This is wild. The court refused to allow individualized questioning of the jurors. This is a poll afterwards. One of the jurors sitting in the Tuggle case, Robert Brown, was quoted expressing his disapproval of the decision of the other jurors in the previous case because it was too lenient on the defendant.

Brown was later selected to be the foreman of Tuggle's jury. Oh, boy. The appeal's going to be so much fun. So trial comes along. And during the trial, the state introduced or the Commonwealth introduced expert testimony from pathologists on the rape evidence. The pathologist testified that Miss Havens had been sodomized and died of a single gunshot wound to the chest. The pathologist further testified that the victim's vagina had been penetrated or manipulated. However, he acknowledged no semen was found in the vagina. So they deny Tuggle's motion for an expert on the subject, by the way.

The defense was unable to put on an affirmative evidence challenge, challenging the rape charge because they didn't have an expert on the subject by the way the defense was unable to put on an affirmative evidence challenge uh challenging the rape charge because they didn't have a an expert so there's that during the prosecutor's closing okay this is his closing now this is a a southwestern fucking baptist prosecutor going to town i don't't know if he's Baptist or not. Yeah, southwestern Virginia. I'm sorry. Now, they need aggravating circumstances for the death penalty. One of the aggravating circumstances that you can do is vileness. The vileness of a crime.

What? How unsettling it is. That feels subjective. It's a little subjective, and that's kind of the point of why it's weird. Yeah. So this man, the prosecutor in his clothing, not in his clothing. That feels subjective. It's a little subjective, and that's kind of the point of why it's weird. Yeah. So this man, the prosecutor in his clothing, not in his clothing. Well, he was probably dressed, I assume, as well.

Probably in his clothing for his clothing. Probably wasn't nude with his balls dangling going, let me tell you all something. Now, I forgot my pants this morning, but I'd like you to overlook that. I thought I was going to sit behind that desk all day today. They sprung the closing on me. So here you go. go oh they can all see it i need a distraction uh baby we were born to die y'all like bruce all right then so uh he says quote even if tuggle didn't have that past history you could still find in this particular case that

his conduct in regard to ms havens was so outrageously or wantonly vile, horrible, or inhuman for which it was, nobody till the day you die, you'll never believe that this was not inhuman or that it was anything other than horrible. That it involved torture. The woman was bitten on

her breast and the testimony was that she had several bites there rotating on that one tooth. He was just keeping her and biting her all over the place or if you find and again this is calling for you to use your common sense depravity of mind or aggravated battery to the victim i imagine he could have chopped her up into fine and little fine pieces and it would have been a little more aggravated but what did he did to her was just as aggravated it was atrocious way beyond the minimum necessary to even accomplish the act of murder that's true uh tuggle was tried 12 years ago on murder and they found him guilty of second degree then now he's back here again on another horrible offense the same way under the similar circumstances

the fact that he is here in less time than he was even sentenced to ought to be a message to you as to what will happen if he doesn't get the death sentence. The only thing I want to state to you and let it be known to everybody here. And so there is no misunderstanding as to where we stand is that I can only say, God forbid, if you give him any type of sentence that permits him to get out there and do this again. And anything less than death is going to do just that. There is a great possibility that he'll be able to do it again. There are enough killers out in society that go undetected and uncaught, untried, unconvicted, and can keep doing it until they finally get caught.

Sometimes they never catch them all. We caught one. We've got one. We've got him here. We've got him in here to where we can do something with him. And that's let's not miss an opportunity. Jesus. So he wants capital murder and death.

Bad. End of opportunity, James. You have an opportunity here. You have an opportunity to kill a man, everyone. Verdict comes in. He is found guilty of capital murder, which he can still get life for, mind you. So during the sentencing phase, the prosecution calls the – this is when they bring in the psychiatrist, the state psychiatrist, who talks about his, quote, high probability of future dangerousness he tells the jury which yeah obviously i don't think you need to be a psychiatrist to fucking notice that

i think you've got to be 12 to recognize that yeah any of our listeners right now would be like well yeah he's obviously he's gonna do this again he'd been denied the assistance of an independent psychiatric expert so he could not offer counter advice to this. This is the only expert heard from was the state expert just for the prosecution. Nobody else. So the verdict comes in and the jury tells him, you, sir, may fuck off death in the electric chair. Wow. That's a they're going to.

That's heavy. That's that's a big one. That's that's heavy. That's heavy. That's a big one. That's deep. Death in this horrible way. Death, and we're going to do it in a really gross way, too. Check it out. We're going to be vile, too. Yeah, we can do this.

So that is March of 1984. He is sentenced to death. Okay? May 31st, 1984. It's two months later the mecklenburg correctional center six death row inmates escape and he is one of them believable uh these six row death six death row inmates are responsible for 17 murders altogether this this is This is the A team right here. There is almost three apiece in this group. Yeah. This is a pretty illustrious group of these people.

He might be the only one good for two. I think so. He has to be based on math. Unless somebody has one and someone else has eight, we don't know what the hell happened. We don't know the numbers here. We'll actually find out later on. I'll tell you who escaped exactly

here it's a maximum security prison they used a bomb threat to escape is what they did this is pretty fucking ingenious they called they called uh the um uh guards into the death row center on a some fake disturbance basically they created a disturbance to call them in there they drew it drew a shitload of guards they ended up overtaking the guards with homemade knives okay they had shanks they overtake the guards with shanks tie them up strip them down steal their uniforms put them on yes i get it this is like a fucking this is like a cartoon now this is bugs and then bugs bunny came out and that's what's going on this is crazy it's amazing that the security and officers of a prison don't know what the faces of the actual death row

inmates look like enough as opposed to their co-workers right if you just put the uniform on them it's now tom what the fuck yeah he walks by and you're like we still going fishing this weekend all right you have a good weekend now he looks shorter today but who knows people shrink people shrink right i don't know your uniforms hanging off kind of funny that's weird that's so weird so like that They overtake them. They steal all their uniforms. Wow. Fucking put them on.

Then they got the uniforms on and they get a stretcher and put something under a sheet on the stretcher and pretend it's a bomb they found. So they now come out and said, there's been a bomb threat up there. We don't know if it's a real bomb or not, but we're getting it out of here. We got it. Yep, that's that. We're going to drag this live bomb through the prison on this stretcher. Excuse me, pardon me, live bomb coming through.

Well, we got to take it out of here. So we don't think it's real, but there's a bomb threat. So they told the people working in the booth there or whatever. What's it called in the- The cage, yeah. The cage there. They said, we need a van outside so we can get this.'s i don't know what the hell this thing is we're not going to carry it away so we need a van and they went okay so they don't know the only thing they

don't know is if the call for the van was made by one of the prisoners or a guard held hostage or a guard they fooled they can't tell the difference okay at that point does it fucking matter it's amazing that this happens it's crazy there's no reason in the world that this should ever happen no are you kidding me this is fucking ridiculous yeah this is insanity so they went to the van and uh then they were just like it was a fire extinguisher by the way that they had acted like it was a bomb and then when anybody else tried to come to the van they were like it might be a bomb in here you guys get back everybody get back we know i oh sorry yeah you guys take that out of here they all backed up christ and at 10 47 p.m they drove away from the prison in a van that they were given by the prison let's fuck in police uniforms in correctional officer uniforms um it was called quote a well

executed plan i would say so would you yeah it's well executed yeah they got out of jail without a drop of violence that's insane to get off of death row this isn't even regular jail this is death row there's like three more security stops there, and they got out of... That's incredible. I would say incredibly bungled by the fucking security of this prison. There's no reason in the world that this should have worked. No, but it's incredible that they thought of the... Okay, what would get everybody to just let us rush by and not want to fucking check paperwork or anything? A bomb.

Oh, God, shit, open the gate. Let them go out there. It's a great point. They're not looking at faces. They're looking at that gurney. What the fuck? That's a what? Yeah.

And that's exactly what they were saying. So they said they were not believed to be armed with guns, but they did have shanks and stuff, and they're all murderers, so they figured they'll come up with something. They're probably pretty dangerous. Bare hands are scary enough. Yeah.

The Warren County Deputy Lawrence Harrison said he received a call at 12 15 a.m about a quote a cutting on baltimore road outside of warrenton that's these guys by the way a cutting uh andrew davis of warrenton said two men stopped him while he was driving asked him for a ride then pulled a shank out yeah so this guy davis started fighting and got his way out of the car because he didn't want to drive with these guys. He had some scratches and some cuts and bruises and shit. And two men drove away about 25 yards before abandoning the car and running away. They only can imagine they can't drive a stick.

That's what they thought. They must not be able to drive a stick or be able to get it into second gear. So they were like, fuck it. It's tricky. It's tricky. We stole the tricky car. God damn it. That is fucking wild.

So back at the prison, once the alarm was finally sounded, when they realized that death row was cleaned out and the guards are in their underwear tied up in there. Wow. They realized that death row was cleaned out and their guards are in their underwear tied up in there. Wow. Once they realized that, they set the alarm and the guard who found that out said they said he, quote, went back upstairs and began releasing the other hostages and immediately alerted other officers that an escape had occurred. This was the first escape from the seven year old prison at the time. Seven years. So seven years. The escapees are. let's talk about the this

illustrious group roster yeah james david briley 27 uh convicted on the uh in the october 1979 robbery and shooting deaths of harvey wilkerson who was 26 judy bart 23, and their five-year-old son inside their Richmond home. A complete piece of shit. He was to be executed August 17th, so he's only got a few more months left to go here. Linwood Early Briley, who, by the way, is his brother. So what a great family that must have been to produce two fucking horrible murderers.

This is a separate thing. He wasn't even with his brother when he was doing that. Not even in commission of that crime? It's another one. A month earlier, September of 1979, he's convicted of the robbery and shooting death of John H. Johnny G. Gallagher, who was a Richmond disc jockey,

who he robbed and shot in the back. So, Earl Clanton Jr., who sounds like the guy from Tombstone yeah uh he's ike yep ike clanton this is earl clanton jr his cousin from virginia he's 30 i'll bet he's related gotta be somewhere they're both trash convicted for the march 1981 strangulation death of willamina smith a petersburg librarian I was 38 years old. He strangled the librarian to death. What a fucking asshole.

Willie Leroy Jones, 23. He's convicted for the May 1983. So this he just got sentenced, just like our guy here for the May 83 murders of Graham Adkins, 77. His wife, Mira, 79. They were in Charles Mira, 79. They were in Charles City, Virginia. They were storekeepers who were retired and then were shot in their home and then set on fire. Oh, Lord.

Also, Derek Lynn Peterson, 22, convicted for the February 82 robbery and shooting death of Howard Kaufman, the office manager at a grocery store in hampton virginia and of course our guy lem that's the six so this is quite the fucking you know five man squad with a six man there's gotta be more in there there's gotta be more sides what i'm saying they said they're responsible for 17 murders i'm like that's probably what they're on death row for they probably murdered before well one two three you got one two three four uh five six seven uh what eight nine i got nine so far that's not 17 well that might be previous not what they're on yeah yeah the ones that they're on death you count lem yeah you count lem's previous that's's 10. And then they probably have it, too. So, yeah, this is quite the crew. Tuggle and the Blythe. That's a death chart of assholes.

That's what that is. That is. That's quite the depth. They got a sixth man of the year. Sixth asshole of the year over here. They got a five-man squad and a sixth asshole, too. It's a death chart of who's the starting asshole. Who's going to be the best asshole?

of who's the starting asshole. Who's going to be the best asshole? So Tuggle Jones and the Briley brothers stole a pickup truck. This is the truck with the fucking vanity tag on it. P-E-I-1. Don't know why that is. From the driveway of its owner. So not like they won't notice that.

The Brileys were dropped off in Philadelphia. So they made a stop in philly where their uncle got them a job at a fucking north philadelphia car garage under assumed names and they just started working like it never happened the briley brothers jethro murderers brothers i'll get you a job kid don't worry about it talk about minding your own business jesus christ there's a limit to that shit uh tuggle and jones plan to continue north to canada because they knew canadian authorities won't extradite fugitives that will be executed that's part of their deal don't allow fugitives

into their country no you got to sneak in through the forest but once you're in you're in that's the thing so uh we told you i told you about the car, the carjacking here. He said the carjacking, by the way, he he was stopped at a light and the two men approached him. The two guys that were left, he they he asked they asked for a ride. He gave them a ride. They said, sure, get in. They got in the car and drove for a little while and he said uh he he drove them out of town and he said they started to act suspicious and that's when he was like okay i don't want to fucking do this anymore and they said they he said they held a knife to his throat and said if he didn't drive they'd kill him and that's when he got away from it and struggled and jumped out of the car and um yeah so they said later on quote i guess they were frightened because of the way mr davis was hollering and screaming and carrying on so they just decided to run so that was that i think they couldn't drive a stick personally but uh the uh it

was they also tried to steal a a truck from a uh painter enterprises in warrenton and that vehicle was also found abandoned the next day so it's not a great crew here so they're searching for them obviously this is a huge deal they said two of the men were spotted on foot that was running away from the carjacking the fbi joins in on the search because now it's in multiple states right uh they put so they have the fbi some 50 local law enforcement agents and 10 different agencies in North Carolina and Virginia are all looking for these guys. They have bloodhounds they brought in and helicopters and aerial search planes as well. Sure. This is an all man hands on deck. Where the fuck are these scumbags that's gotta be one of the hardest jobs in the world ps of finding somebody

and trying to predict where they're gonna be based on fucking past behavior that's gotta be and then if they kill somebody and it's like somewhere that you didn't expect them to be you look like the asshole yeah now you're the jerk right there's a case it's so fucked up and it's the tracking thing is weird there's a case i found from washington i don't know if we'll end up doing it or not but it's this this guy gets convicted of murder but it's all based on the fact that a tracker a guy who is tracking someone walked up and knocked on his door and said this is the guy and took him because he said that he tracked him through a raspberry field okay and he said he knew that that was definitely him because he's the only guy in that area that's mexican and only a mexican would know how to go through

the raspberry fields like that this man said that shit in court wow and this was in like the 90s he's like mexicans know how to toe through those foreign thorns the way he did it the way you go over he said they're set up a certain way and only mexican they went so if so they said you you you assessed they said by the way that that the field was traversed that this man was mexican and he said yes and he said so would there be a certain way it would be traversed where you would think he was polish or or dutch or any other fucking race or nationality and he said well i just know that this and that but the whole thing is based on he thinks he knows how

it's wild i got the case is crazy maybe we'll do it as a bonus testimony with not to be racist no no no he started it with now this is going to sound super racist hear me out i think that's how he started it honestly but it was really weird i i have the i'll maybe i'll do a bonus testimony are you ready for this y'all ready now so uh earl clanton and derrick peterson they're the carjackers there. They were captured within 24 hours. Finally, they are captured eating cheese at a coin laundry. Yeah, that's how they that's literally how they found them. They were drinking like Thunderbird or Mad Dog.

Yeah, they were drinking wine and eating cheese while washing the prison issues at a car at a coin laundry. They got busted. So police uniforms really that's probably what the fuck it was man so that is fucking wild yeah they're caught eating that uh hundreds of searchers are scouring all around warrenton but everybody else as we know they were headed up by 95 two guys are in philly all that shit um the dan i guess oh no that's never mind so oh that's right dan latham is the guy who operator of dan's custom car factory and he did as a buddy a favor yeah and housed two men yeah housed two men and uh as unexpected guests he's like yeah sure we'll

take it one slept in the backseat of a car in the garage and the other slept on an old sofa. He just said, we help you. Dead giveaway, those guys are a problem. They're fugitives probably, yeah. If the best accommodations you could come up with is the backseat of a car and you have an uncle here,

why can't you stay at his house? There's got to be an issue. I need a job and I'll sleep in whatever i'm working on what yeah i need to see your background sir well he asked well at least what are your names yeah and uh they gave their names as slim and lucky i'm slim and that's lucky all right then yep all right no you can't be here well i guess slim you'll be in the backseat of the car. And then Lucky, it's your lucky day, pal. I got an old sofa for you.

Didn't even give names. They gave nicknames. Slim and Lucky. He said that everybody considered them polite and considerate. Yeah. They were trying not to draw attention to yourself. Fuck yeah. They helped install light fixtures in the shop they stripped cars for customizing they swept floors they built some benches they were working

they actually were doing a job uh but and then the other two went up to to vermont now by the time they got it was they say it's about by the time they got about 15 minute miles south of the canadian border they're hungry and they're tired they're almost out of gas it's time to camp it's time to cash it in here so they camp out in the woods for the night this is uh this is what's his name tuggle and jones that particular inmate there so they camp out in the woods june 5th uh this is the problem also it's something that and this is the thing that i think investigators are experiencing a huge deal right now looking for dipshit in Florida, um, is the search is now hampered by dozens and dozens of false leads. Of course they're coming in everywhere. I've seen them.

I seen them. I seen them. And it's a bunch of guys, you know, they, they're average looking guys. So I've seen them is not really. So they're set in all sorts of different directions that are the wrong directions uh a man a man in oxford uh north carolina steals two cans of pork and beans from a snack shack store yeah in oxford north carolina jimmy 40 fucking law enforcement officers show up. 40. You got to feel like.

Not any of them. Imagine you got caught stealing two cans of pork and beans. And the FBI showed up, Jimmy. There was helicopters flying around with FBI agents and local people from North Carolina were there. He's like, I stole. Fuck, dude. How much are Vandecamps worth today they are taking the port of bean theft seriously nowadays holy shit this is crazy a lot of fucking

wow so that's that would have been a hilarious scene to get them all out there they're like nope not him never mind just again just again on his luck just a down on his luck guy who is stealing not to mention stealing a very mild thing. He's not like, I'm going to go steal lobster tails. He's like, well, I'll steal pork and beans. He's not trying to live large here. He's just trying to survive, obviously. If I see someone steals a can of pork and beans and it's my store, I'm giving them another can of pork and beans and sending them on their way.

Clearly, this is... And a five from my pocket. I'm so sorry about can of pork and beans and sending them on their way. Clearly, this is. And a five from my pocket. I'm so sorry about your life, sir. You got problems. Jesus. You want to pick out some protein or what? Let's. So. No, there's pork in here.

I'll be all right. I'll be all right. No problem. Well, it's chunks of like oily fat. It's a small piece. From a pig originally. Yeah. I'll chase it around those beans for it.

Why not? So June 6th, a woman reports a black man fleeing into the woods near Pash. Our guy's white, by the way. Lem Tuggle, our guy. But the guy were. But I think four of the six inmates were black that escaped. So there was reports of a black man fleeing into the woods north of Warrington, North Carolina. So the shift, the search shifts there.

A taxi cab is reportedly hijacked in Durham and abandoned in Salisbury, North Carolina. So the whole crew goes there. It's just whack-a-mole with every crime that happens in a two-state region. Every damn crime, it's going to be them. Yeah. Durham's a city. Taxi cabs get hijacked in cities all the time that doesn't mean it's the escape prisoners so every crime that happens

they're like well they would do that so they rush there i wouldn't expect uh six guys from death row to be fleeing to a giant city granted that probably is a good idea to go there because you can blend in but you're not gonna fucking blend in you're from death row you look that's the problem you're on death row yeah unless you have people that'll help you give you new clothes you know shit like that help you change your appearance you're gonna look like a guy who just escaped from death row now june 8th tuggle and uh jones are becoming desperate for money up there they had camped in the woods. They're running out of food. There's no gas. They can't go anywhere.

So that's when he robs the Red Mills gift shop in Woodford, Vermont, and is caught by the police there. So June 13th, Jones is still, by the way, fucking out on the lam. He's caught, but Jones is out there. He went to the, by the way, fucking out on the lamb. He's caught. But Jones is out there.

He went to the store to rob it and he said, I'll be back. And then he never came back. So Jones is sitting in the woods waiting for this guy who's got the truck and he ain't coming back because he got arrested by the town chief. Right. He got arrested by the town chief. Right. So what he does is on June 13th, he just goes and finds somebody and kind of turns himself in, basically. June 13th. Well, this is from the newspaper.

I'll give you this. The Reverend Keith Eddy glances into his backyard in Phillipsburg, Quebec. Eddy sees a man running under a piece of tin propped up against a tool shed. Virtually no blacks live in the area eddie is suspicious it's one of the remaining escapees he's heard about because one was caught nearby residents of phillipsburg are tense june 19th a bearded bespectacled latham looks out of the door of his philadelphia custom car shop those are the guy and the two guys down there outsider 20 fbi agents with shotguns. They found him.

Come on out. Yep. The two strangers he's allowed to sleep in the shop for two weeks are obviously, they are behind the garage barbecuing chicken when the 20 people get there. They end up coming. Oh, shit. Yeah, doing a shopping cart jerk chicken. Gross.

And they turn, uh-oh, we don't have enough chicken for all these people uh 20 fbi agents you told me you brought your friends yeah that's the briley brothers they surrender peacefully at that but you're caught by 20 people whether you have a fucking tongue in your hand yeah and a barbecue brush it's not gonna work out throw hot coals at them. Just cash it in. So June 20th, the return to Richmond, those two, and they get all of there. And everybody else is back in custody by then. The reason why the guy went into that reverend's backyard, hid behind a piece of tin, when he found him, they called the police. This guy basically said, yeah, I'm him, I'm him, I'm done. him they called the police the this guy basically said yeah i'm him i'm him i'm done he came to a populated area and went in his yard because he said when tuggle didn't come back he was scared

to sleep in the woods by himself he was scared of the fucking to sleep in the woods by himself there's bad people out there something could happen to me i could there someone could murder me crazy people are in these woods he was afraid of the you're the thing everyone's afraid of you're the murderer the boogeyman's afraid of the dark you're the boogeyman stupid that's why the boogeyman hides under the bed james because he's afraid of the dark holy shit this is like crazy after crazy what is going on lately i swear next week there's going to be like a very normal case without any of this is insanity fucking insanity so um yeah they're all they're all back in custody now and uh some of the boogeyman's in your closet yeah it's scary out there it's dark hey it's it's dark out there there could be bad people baby we were born to die afraid of the woods jimmy

it's afraid of the fucking dark like us baby we're afraid of the dark baby we're afraid of the dark. Baby, we're scared of the dark. Baby, we require light. That is incredible. Baby, we like night lights. What is happening, man? So when Tuggle was robbing the store, the $80, the store employees gave a prescription a prescription a description of him it's a prescription for a death row inmate and uh the stolen pickup truck he was drive a short time later about 1 30 p.m he is caught at a state police roadblock after being chased by the local

town police chief was like ran him right into a roadblock he knew where he was he knew where the roadblock was and just let him there chased him into the roadblock basically so he was picked up about five miles north of the vermont massachusetts border he had driven to vermont in a pickup truck like we said this is fucking hilarious his reasonings uh so people are relieved obviously the north carolina crime control department spokesman said everybody in the back of their minds expected there to be some really horrible event. They all expected them to be just murder their way across the country. But nobody did because that takes a minute. They needed to keep moving.

Also, you need weapons to do that. And all they've got is a filed down oral B. That's not going to do it. It's not going to do it. Yeah, this guy's got a piece of plastic. Right, with an oral B. Yeah, it's like I found a piece of plastic in shop, and I'm going to rob places with it. I'm going to stab my way through this country.

Yeah. This guy also said there was always the fear that they had perhaps murdered a couple way out in the backwoods and stuffed them in the refrigerator or something, that they were living on their food holed up way out back in the woods. That's what they were worried about, that they came upon, like the great outdoors story came upon a family fell on them butchered them ate them butchered them and ate them that was that guy really thought hard about they butchered a family and stuck them in the fridge and they're yeah and all their oats well we got to take the food out to fit them in there let's just keep it needed i guess surviving on beans and rice so that's they bring him in whatever uh he's back in prison he does an interview does tuggle he's doing prison interviews jimmy they're calling him on the phone and he doesn't give a fuck um he said about the plan

quote it worked good well yeah it did uh the prison was supposed to be one of the most secure in the united states but they opened the gates and just let us out i could probably write a book and sell it or we got this lem don't worry about it we got you covered chief uh he said that he did not mastermind the escape plan that the escape plan was going on for about six months and uh yeah he only they only he's only been on it for like the last two months of the planning which is when he got to death row he told uh he said that him and jones were driving around in a stolen pickup truck spent several days in the woodford area in southern vermont before heading north they reached jay near the canadian border camped out they needed more

money uh to go to canada uh so they decided to get try to get a job they tried to get jobs jimmy well i mean i could go get a job i got some i'll type about 50 60 words a minute i think that's got to be worth something right this is incredible he said quote i was trying to get uh i was trying to get it some other way without robbing someone hopefully by working yeah yeah because he's got a whole new attitude now he said that he drove back to woodford leaving jones up in jay even though jones was afraid of sleeping in the woods alone he told him i'll be back don't worry i'll be back before not fall and he's like you better buddy because i'm afraid of the dark so campfire only it's about 40 feet you better hurry i'm almost out of sticks i don't know which ones to put on there shit so he uh that's when he robbed the

gift shop he said quote i was just out of desperation he said quote i was broken out of gas it was either that or go on foot yeah yeah he said he took part in the escape because he didn't like prison that's why they said why'd you escape because i don't Yeah, he said he took part in the escape because he didn't like prison. That's why. They said, why'd you escape? He goes, I don't like it. He said he wanted to, quote, get far enough and start over again.

Start raping Canadian women now and murdering them. They said that, what about the electric chair? How do you feel about that? And he said, quote, there's a lot better ways to go than that. I would say that's a bad one.

He said that one of his rules for the escape that he told the other inmates was no violence. He didn't want to commit any violence. He said, we can do this only if nobody gets hurt. That's what he said. I don't believe him, but that's what he said. He said, quote, we had ample opportunity to have plenty of violence and there wasn't any. I made an agreement not to hurt anyone before or after the escape. The other guys stabbed a guy in the throat, so I don't think they followed it.

He said that the prosecutor called him, quote, the most cold blooded killer he's ever laid eyes on. And the state psychologist told a jury that, quote, I would kill again. He said, I wanted to prove I wanted to prove them all wrong. And it was prove them all wrong. i wanted to prove them all wrong and it was prove them all wrong i wanted to prove them all wrong he said and the escape the escape was quote the only way to do that yeah i was just trying to prove my point i was just trying to prove i'm a good person by getting out of prison under false pretenses and shit because i because you could anybody could go around saying oh you let me out and i won't kill nobody else i had to show them look i did it i i've i have experience living out there he said uh that was the only way the appeals court is run by what's

in the record and if you don't do something to prove yourself you can forget about it he thought this would look good on an appeal. Yeah. He thought they'd be like, he literally was like, you got to get it on record that you ain't killing people or else I was out for, what, seven days without one dead body? I mean, that's got to be worth something, right? I mean, a commutation. I got to show them that I can do it. He literally said so it's in the record so they know he was out

and didn't kill anybody. You know what? Sentence commuted. Life in prison. He's fine. He'll be okay. Let's let him out in 20 years. What do you think?

He's a safe guy. Oh, my God. So he said when they drove off out of the prison gates in the van, he said, quote, it felt, quote, really good. Yeah. Like a dream come true is what it was like. I bet. Yeah. Death row to driving in a van that's

gonna be great uh he kept a breast of the manhunt for him he said on the truck radio they listened caught up on things got a newspaper here and there he said at one point he stopped and asked directions from two new jersey state troopers in a fucking stolen car. Oh, my God. And they were like, yeah, that way. Hey, what this fucking hillbilly? Hold on. Hey, hold on a minute. This hillbilly don't know where he's going.

What now? Get this shit out of your fucking mouth. I can't understand you. What are you talking about? It's fucking that way. I don't forget the fuck out of these goddamn fucking hicks over here. And they let him go. Idiots.

He says, quote, my only mistake was when I got out of prison was having to rob that lady in Vermont. If I'd have had 50 more miles, I wouldn't be sitting here right now. It's something you'd see out of a movie. He had nothing left and only 50 miles to go. That's it.

And he was ready. He says he prefers death to prison. Yeah. He says there's nothing to do but look at the walls all you can do is stand up when you get tired of standing up you lay back down every 30 minutes you got to get up and let the bed dry off because you done sweat so much you got the bed wet especially when you're 300 pounds and five foot four uh he said that prisoners are lucky to get two hours of sleep per night because of the noise level and he said he and his cellmate are only allowed one hour of recreation three times a week and brief showers on those days he has a cellmate in death row by the way

that's weird different that's different um prison the prison itself starts they have a whole thing of we're fixing the security obviously there's a problem. Six fucking people can get out. Let it blow up if there's a bomb threat. Whoa. I found they're blaming everybody. The Department of Prisons. There's people blaming the governor personally saying it's all your fault. Like he's I don't know what the fuck.

But everybody's blaming. There's a lot of finger pointing going on here. As you might imagine, the bomb was a fucking. How do you do that that's it they've to to thwart this they've installed a permanent three-man search crew that will conduct daily random searches at the correctional center which is very common now but apparently wasn't back then he uh they announced tight steps to tighten security after they discovered a month later another escape plot there that was in its works oh by the way in october of that year someone else escapes so all of this that i'm

telling you right now terrific doing great because a few months later somebody else escapes here um yeah they said that they it's the guy they were so everybody's so mad and no one has like the right person to blame or anything like that they said that their first searches in the first two weeks they found cut window struts and at least three cells they found uh uncovered rope homemade weapons hacksaw blades and marijuana most deviously of all you can get a hacksaw blade and you can get weed in that's yeah pretty much it's easier to put up your ass i would say it doesn't get what would you rather detector yeah what would you rather put you up your ass a bag of weed or a hacksaw blade put it that way go with the weed a little easier so uh they a consultant's report

released said uh criticized administrative procedures and said that Mecklenburg said the procedures had an ungovernable, ungovernable, governable conduct among inmates and was apparently the norm. So can't govern them. They're ungovernable. to this they've revamped all the security codes including photo identification cards issued to prison employees you know so you can fucking they didn't have their photos on their badges jimmy tell who's who you mean they didn't even have a fucking threw them off that's it they didn't even have a badge to at least compare oh you're a white guy and there's a black guy's picture on your badge this is fucking weird weird. They don't. Nothing. Or vice versa.

Or vice versa. Whatever. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. Who the hell knows? I would assume, too, they would take the white guy badges and then the white guys would take the black guy badges just because everyone's a moron in this fucking thing. So, wow.

They're going to do all that. Now, January 1985, Lem Davis Tuggle Sr. dies. So his dad dies. So his dad was alive all through this. He lived to 63. So I don't know what his deal was, but he's alive up till then. November 30th, 1985, this is in the Virginia Supreme Court. This is Tuggle's appeal here.

Now, the state Supreme Court decides that the state has no obligation to pay for a psychiatrist to assist someone in a capital murder case. Really? They said upholding the death penalty. They said that and it's the other lawyers said that I certainly wonder what effect this will have on other cases. But I don't. But until I have time to read the opinion, I don't know, because it's's a messy opinion too it really is it's a very strange it's a very strange thing to say like how could you how could you do that i i don't know how could you say you would think if you're going to put someone on death row you'd want it to be as clean as possible so you could say

there would be it would be beyond reproach at least this is i can't even get it out it's just it's mind-boggling and if you're fighting somebody for uh in any battle in court if if you have a specific weapon they should be able to use theirs that's the same thing in terms of professionals that's that's nuts and it's been it was like this up until recently i mean there's still states where it's not balanced, but some states have a dollar for dollar thing where you're not allowed. Yeah. The defense gets the same way you do. I'm just I just mean, like, if you're going to be having a professional in a certain field, I should have a professional in that field, too.

Yeah. Disagrees with you if nothing else just so it's it's more why why would you why wouldn't you want it to be more looking like it's on the level like i don't get that especially you want to save a couple of bucks but yeah that's what i mean when you you got to tell i get that the people in your state want the death penalty but then you have to tell them hey death penalty costs fucking money so if you would like to get your revenge if you want your eye for an eye that's fine and all but guess what you're gonna have to fucking pay a shitload more for everything that comes to that and that's going to cost you in your pocketbook so what do you would you want

to pay more taxes or do you want to have not the death penalty because those are the two fucking options you have you can't have it both ways. You got to do it on the up and up and it's got to be above board because otherwise you just look, you look worse than the murderer because you look like you're setting up a conveyor belt to murder people. And which is worse? At least this guy, you know, it was, I don't think he knew that she was going to be there and planned it out and had a whole thing.

At least that was a random act of violence. When you do it the other way, it's like it's make it so it's harder to make it be on reproach. You look like Harry Connick's dad and he's a fucking monster. And we've said it many times, but people still seem to get confused. We are really have a weird ambivalence about the death penalty of we don't like it at all. There are certain people that we want to strangle ourselves yeah certain ones of our cases where you're like i would 100 kick that guy's balls in until he died that would be great if you would allow me to do that i'd be happy to fine the only qualms i've got about it is make sure that it is and yeah infallible

it cannot it's just it's it's not and that's why it's impossible that's the problem it's never going to be infallible and and until it is or until you make a a rule where there has to be like a five level there has to be dna videotape you know some crazy standard of something is the only way you could do it and even still there would still be ways so it's not a matter of whether we like it or not nobody likes shit like that that's not what we're no lenny from of mice and men that's exactly that's the other thing that's that's not applied there's a million ways why it's it's wrong and it's not because we don't want some certain people to die it's just we don't want them to die in the way that the state wants to do it and i don't want the state to do it either i don't want to be gross

about it. No, I have the thing where it's like, if you're going to have a death penalty and you're going to have it, have it be this. Okay, let's say that 18-year-old girl in 71 got raped and murdered by him. Okay, if you were going to put him to death, you'd say, here's the option. Does someone in your family want to beat this guy to death? Because if you don't, that's the death option. We'll let you do it out of pure revenge.

And if not, then we're just going to put him in jail forever. We don't have a beef in this because it's not our daughter. So we're not going to kill him. If you want to do it, we understand. We'll look the other way. You know what I mean? Like a mob boss. Like, well, he did you wrong.

So you know what? I'm looking the other way on that. It's like one of those. That's what we need. I don't know. What we're saying is we don't fucking know and we're lucky. That's why neither of us ever want to be governor or any other fucking thing. No interest in politics.

We don't want to make. No, we don't want to make decisions like this or have an opinion on it to that extent. So, Jesus Christ, it's at this moment. This has nothing to do with the case, but it was at the same exact time as he's doing this interview on the page. Also, on the newspaper is when they first discovered how to find like a seminal for semen for rape cases. Oh, a University of Virginia scientist said Friday that he is close to discovering a process in which rape suspects can be identified through their semen. So this is the beginning of this is in 1985. He said, that's our direction.

We're pushing our research in about to be able to find securiters. Exactly. About to be able to find it through that rather than just, well, I don't know. We'll find the blood type. So May 1985, he appeals to the U.S. Supreme Court, and we'll go through this pretty quickly here. There's ten counts, so we'll burn

right through them fast. One, trial court failed to appoint an independent psychiatrist and an expert pathologist to assist in his defense. Two, conduct of the trial court and the prosecution worked to deny Tuggle his right by a fair and impartial jury. Three, insufficient prosecution worked to deny Tuggle his right by a fair and impartial jury. Three, insufficient evidence to convict Tuggle of murder during the commission of a rape.

This is a ticky tacky point because sodomy didn't count under the capital murder statute specifically at that time. So it was rape, which by law meant vaginal in the state of Virginia in 1983. rape which by law meant vaginal in the state of virginia in 1983 so unless they can prove that he actually put his penis inside of her then they can't say it's rape even though they know that he did that there and there's bruising inside they're saying his defense is saying well it could have been something else it could didn't have to be his penis it could have been his finger a bird could have flew in there anything we don't know what happened you don't have any semen in there. Crazy.

Yep. That's the tick. That's the hair they're trying to split here. The trial court aired in allowing the psychiatrist to testify that Tuggle posed a future danger to society because such testimony was based on discussions with Tuggle outside the presence of counsel without a waiver of Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights. Tuggle outside the presence of counsel without a waiver of Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights. The prosecutor argued that Tuggle should be put to death because he was otherwise otherwise be released on parole. Apparently, you can't do that. The vileness instruction given to the jury was unconstitutionally vague, which we agreed with that. We were like, vials are pretty sober.

It's very subjective. So it's very subjective. So the trial court prevented Tuttle's appointed trial counsel from rendering effective assistance of counsel to Tuggle a trial because it prohibited them from presenting the kind of defense to which their client was constitutionally entitled. him of the protections provided by the eighth amendment and um that the death sentence after striking the future dangerousness aggravating circumstance that shouldn't be there because the supreme court struck down the future dangerous thing said you can't shouldn't say that but they still let the death penalty go on uh also that the virginia death penalty statute is unconstitutional because of the vagueness of the vileness aggravating circumstances did he spit and then suck it back in his mouth because that's pretty vile oh gee that's pretty gross so yeah had the murder been unaccompanied with a rape charge it would not have been capital murder in Virginia this is from the court documents

thus the element of rape which was critical to this case, he contends that the evidence in the case was insufficient to warrant the conviction of rape. He acknowledges that semen was found in the victim's rectum. No seminal was found, though, in or around the vagina. He said there was a small bruise at the entrance of the vagina, but there's no testimony concerning when the bruise occurred. The state pathologist said the bruise was consistent with penetration by something, a penis, a finger, an object, something.

So they're saying that at the time Tuggle was tried, homicide accompanied by sodomy was not a capital crime in Virginia. You can only rape with your penis. You can only rape with your penis in the vagina. Unbelievable. Nothing else. What a dick. I want to beat the fuck out of whoever said that if i rape you

and cut your throat while i'm doing it it's not a rape murder in 1983 in virginia i want to beat the living shit out of whoever wrote that law that's the dumbest fucking thing beat them till they can't breathe it's fucking wild it says here in virginia a rape conviction requires evidence that the vagina was penetrated by the penis specifically the lack of seminal fluid is a strong circumstance indicating that there was no penetration is what they say here the virginia supreme court has in non-capital cases reversed rape convictions even when they involve vaginal injury and unequivocal expert testimony that penetration of the vagina by a penis had occurred.

But if they didn't find any seminal fluid, they called it a not a rape. So you have to finish. As we know now from countless, countless times they've interviewed serial killers and shit, so many of these guys either can't get it up or can't finish one of the two. That's just part of the fucking thing of serial killing. So that of these guys either can't get it up or can't finish one of the two. That's just part of the

fucking thing of serial killing. So that means absolutely nothing. Nothing. Zero. Yeah, they said given the lack of seminal fluid in or around the vagina and the lack of injury or bruise in the vagina, there was insufficient evidence to convict Tuggle

of rape. He contends that the claim is particularly critical given the refusal to allow the appointment of an independent pathologist to help him defend against the rape charge. He says that given the scant evidence of rape, scant evidence. That's ballsy to write that after this case. That's a lot of balls. Some scant evidence of rape. Are you joking, bro? I will. I want to punch somebody right now.

I'm pissed off at this shit. I'm as mad at that person as I am at the person that passed the law. Right. Well, the U.S. Supreme Court says there is a strong likelihood that defense counsel, with the assistance of an independent pathologist, could have successfully defended the rape charge, which is true. In Virginia, he could have because there's precedent for it there. So they said, on the other hand, they said that the reasonable jurists could find and

did find sufficient evidence to conclude that a rape had occurred. So that is a possibility as well. Even if you said there's no semen, they go, well, we think he started there and then took his party around back. Yeah. So they said that the court noted that no evidence in the present case reasonably suggests the penetration of the victim's vagina by an object other than the defendant's penis. They're like, that'd be the most obvious thing he would try to stick in there, probably. Like something got put in that outlet.

I bet it's a plug. Yeah. I bet it's not a ham sandwich that went in there. You know, it's. We know that he's. Start the obvious penis in in her. So, yeah. You know, I mean, why would he? Yeah.

Only there. Come on. Yeah. No. Give me a fucking break here. saying that they didn't allow their own psychiatrist and that psychiatric evidence of indigent defendants future dangerousness due process requires that the defendant have access to psychiatric testimony and examination and assistance in preparing for the sentencing stage. was unconstitutional because the prosecution psychiatrist uh had testified as to his future dangerousness although they kept it in place the u.s supreme court says overturned the sentencing based on the lack of access to experts that's that's the main that's a big deal that's the one where they said you can't do that so he does get a new sentencing hearing. But unsurprisingly, they decide, you, sir, fuck off again and go back to death row with you.

So they sent him to death again. That's right. He's back in death row again there by 1985. Okay. Back on death row. 1985, he tries to escape again. He's like, wow, that's wild. uh armed security guards this time quelled the escape attempt it's a wednesday after they had to storm a section of building one at the facility the escape attempt started about 11 a.m when control officer william reese received a

telephone call from one inmate turn around said the voice on the phone quote there's a pistol aimed at your head if you do what i say you'll be all right i'm not fooling if you want to leave this place alive you crack the doors we're death row inmates we got nothing to lose oh my so the this guy said that he turned around reese and he saw an inmate holding what looked like a nine millimeter pistol. He was like, oh shit. Inmate got a gun. Uh, the inmates also around him had homemade knives. So everybody's got shanks and this dude's got a gun.

So, um, Willie Turner, who is, uh, I guess one of the inmates here, Willie Turner, he ignited tightly packed match heads, which shattered a window. I didn't know that was a thing he had to really yeah i mean you got to really do it though i guess you could do it like with firecracker packs back yeah it's just sulfur that's gotta yeah yeah you have to pack it together i mean you just have to do that ahead of time you didn't just do that on the spot no he didn't just like put him in his hand real tight yeah that's what i mean that didn't happen throw him at the window so reese the officer responded by securing the area inside the control room and calling for assistance.

And prison officers forced the six inmates back into their cells after an armed standoff at about 45 minutes. And it was Tuggle and three other death row inmates tried to do it there. The other inmates, Joseph Garitano, 28, Willie Lloyd Turner, 39, and Edward Fitzgerald, 28. Willie Lloyd Turner, is that one of the escapees? No. No, no, no. It wasn't. Okay. Yeah.

So that's what they did. They withheld the identities until they did the investigation, and they said that they can't really give them additional prison time. Yeah doesn't work so they may order give them less time that's what i mean death penalty what do you do there uh we're gonna turn down your voltage so it takes longer i don't know they said they may order solitary confinement for 15 days each which seems like if all you get is solitary for 15, you should try and escape every week. Every day. Fuck it.

Why would you even why would you bother staying there? I guess 25, all 25 of the death row inmates were in lockdown after that, confined to their cells. And they said that authorities searching the cells on death row in the wake of the escape attempt found sharpened pieces of metal about 10 pieces, 10 inches long one inmate cell yeah so they got that and there was no gun no gun no no no gun he had a fashioned it to look like a nine millimeter and at a quick glance with a bunch of people with shanks you just assume it is and you you know i would say the guys with the shanks are just as dangerous anyway so there's 10 guys with shanks or it's two guys it was three people total so he's

back in there no big deal 1987 he tries to escape again and he's got he's caught and stuck back in death row obviously he also gets gets a priest in trouble for helping him really not helping him escape but helping him like do things he manipulates some priest who I guess is helping a bunch of death row inmates. He brought one a cassette tape. He brought another one doing them favors, bringing a note for family members and shit like that. He's a priest, I guess, so he's trying to do nice things. And he gets banned from the prison for doing that. You have to take a course on how to not get manipulated by them when you get hired.

Well, as we know. I knew it was a rule. I didn't know it was a law. As we know from Love After Lockup, it's easy. That's a whole. Most of the course is don't fuck the inmates. Don't fuck the inmates. The inmates are going to try to fuck you. Don't fuck them.

They're going to try to fuck you. Don't fuck them. Just don't fuck them. Don't don't be down with them. So what this guy did, this is Griffin is the guy's name. He said that Tuggle sent him a check for $70 and asked him to cash it and then deposit the money into the prison account of a second inmate. So he is getting, who knows what he's buying with that. This guy could be facilitating drug deals.

We have no idea what this guy's facilitating, but he's going to go on the outside, get cash deposit in this guy's account because that's the only way they can do it it's very interesting uh he said griffin said quote it crossed my mind that it might not be proper to fulfill tuggles request but i figured if i was going through the administrative finance office at mecklenburg how could it be wrong thought it was knew it was a rule so this guy getting banned causes a hunger strike in the prison they're all pissed off now that they can't have their guy there um the uh savansky pointer uh derrick peterson joseph pain edward fitzgerald these are a couple of the escape attempt guys earl washington joseph garyato gary etano who was was one of the escape attempts charles stamper and tuggle are all on a hunger strike he could use a hunger strike

i'm gonna say because wait till we get to a couple years from now and you hear his you hear his stats you're gonna go holy shit that guy could use a diet february 1991 he wants to go to iraq what it's the first gulf war and he said send me over there god damn it i will do anything he said that uh he and thousands of other death row inmates across the nation should be turned loose on the iraqis in the persian gulf war can you imagine the war crimes we would be up uh on trial for if we did that? It would be like one of those old football games where you turn the vibration on, everybody just goes in separate directions. They wouldn't stay together. They'd go start running into the sand dunes just to get the fuck out.

I'm free. I'm not on death row or in the army now. This is so much better. He said that volunteers from death row, as many as 2, 2 000 want the chance to to quote fight saddam hussein for the united states tuggle said they could be sent on high-risk missions and if killed it wouldn't matter we're the suicide squad that's what it is he's it's like a bad movie he's got a bad b-movie plot here in a letter to president bush and governor L. Douglas Wilder of Virginia, copying letters, he CC'd them both, he outlined his willingness to, quote, perform duties as directed and lay down my life if necessary. Now, corrections officials won't comment publicly about his request, but one told the Roanoke Times and World News, quote, I wouldn't imagine anybody would ever take him up on his offer.

No shit. times and world news quote i wouldn't imagine anybody would ever take him up on his offer no shit dead shots born to die have i showed you my arm me also harley quinn want to go save the world in his letter he also volunteered the inmates of uh the services in particular of a fellow inmate james paine who said mark me down on the president hey when you tell the president we're fine mark me down on that I'll come with you yeah that's cool tell him I'm in he said quote neither of us expect to gain anything except rather except rather than being executed having a second chance at life by serving our country and our military we are willing to be trained and accept any assignment or mission necessary to serve the U.S. government. He's a 40-year-old 5'3 fat man. What the fuck are you going to do over there?

You had your chance to do that. Yeah. He said he'll do any mission necessary to serve the U.S. government and die with honor and dignity. Born to die. He didn't specifically mention freedom or commutation of his death sentence as a reward he does cite the 1967 film the dirty dozen which is where this comes from as a model for his proposal yeah obviously in the movie 12 convicts are recruited for a suicide mission during world war ii and the survivors were rewarded with parole from their life sentences he says he has prior

military experience which like that's why i said i don't know if that's true earlier and quote is trained in the use of machine guns grenade launchers and landmines when you were 18 when you went to fucking prison what are you talking about and he said quote i also have experience with C4 and other plastic explosives and can drive any size or make of car or truck. As long as it's not a stick. As long as it's not. He can drive the stick. That was the two other guys.

But that's C4. Where the fuck are you playing with C4 and plastic explosives, you scumbag? So September 21st, 1995 is Execution Day. Oh oh it is upon us execution day uh last minute appeal obviously here uh it's gonna happen here they said they put the appeal in and they're just waiting to hear back from it and uh this this uh whole deal the supreme court said it needs to consider whether to hear the formal appeal from tuggle's lawyers that it was filed right then. So they delay the sentence. They delay the death penalty.

He gets a minor stay here. They said if the court decides not to hear the appeal, the stay would be lifted automatically. Under state law, the execution would be reset for a date no more than 70 days after the lifting after lifting of the stay. So Tuggle's lawyer, by the way, who his appeal lawyer was, Tim Kaine, who turns who later on will be governor of Virginia and a vice presidential candidate in 2016. That guy, Tim Kaine. Yeah, he was a lawyer at the time and he was his appellate lawyer to go to the Supreme Court because he was, I guess, a good lawyer. appellate lawyer for to go to the supreme court because he was a i guess a good lawyer so tim said he was uh pleased to get to the stay but the real test would be whether the court accepts the petition and uh he said there's certainly some issues to resolve here uh people are mad about

this they're mad about the delay i mean they're like fuck that three months from now fuck that kill him now they're really pissed off i mean it's it's they say that uh uh for that this is this a yes this is an editorial they say that so for the time being no one knows when or even if tuggle will be executed such uncertainty after all these years is inexcusable people complain about how long the trial of oj simpson is taken but far more offensive far more damaging to society's respect for the legal system is the long delay between conviction in capital murder cases and the execution of the guilty person. A decade delay is typical. Yes, because you have to make sure

you're killing the right person. Jesus. Congress is considering revisions in federal law that could eliminate some of the causes for delay, but not all of them. We want to bring them right outside and do it. A death penalty opponents will continue to exploit every loophole. And what finally amounts to an effort to thwart the will of the majority, which is the will of the people guilty of, which is that guilty people of guilty of heinous crime should be executed. My God, the more that desire for justice is thwarted,

the more cynical the public is apt to become and the more likely people are to support even harsher harsher penalties and fewer legal protections for criminals such as Tuttle so you have to kill them even if it's not legal to make sure that we don't kill more people because it's legal because listen uh that's what they just said that's what that editorial said was i mean especially in movies and documentary we've convicted that guy by popular opinion a hundred times over yes and they just found today that yes he's not the zodiac killer so what the fuck would you guys have done then had we killed that fucking guy or the other six guys that you thought it was that wasn't him

yeah or the many many many people who are freed from death row with dna evidence exactly yeah so it's a lot we all know that we're not gonna fucking we're not gonna legislate the death penalty on this show that's not our job so we can't bow to that no that's just silly that's that's a that's a very specific point of view uh december and the way to try to put say we think it's i think it's right that this should happen not well if we don't do it we'll have to kill more people that's a then you'll get what you want even less that's a dumb way to do it don't don't don't bullshit me fucking be honest and then i'll take your argument at face value don't try to go it's actually better for you

to get what you want more for me to have the thing I want. Don't tell me that, fucking assholes. So December 13th, 1996, execution day two, lethal injection boogaloo. Now they have no more electric chair in Virginia. Now they've gone to lethal injection. Wow. On execution day, Lem is 5'4", 340 pounds. My God. 5'4", 340 pounds.

That's so much man. They're not a lot of man. Yeah. There was a lot of jokes about he's not going to fit on the gurney and all that shit. He's wider than he is tall. Yeah. he's not going to fit on the gurney and all that shit. They did all that.

Yeah. Uh, so Tim Cain, his lawyer said that, that, uh, the client's latest appeal was rejected by the U S Supreme court last Thursday. He said,

no further appeals are planned. And, um, you know, Tuggle Tuggle said, uh, that he's thought a lot about his life along death row. He said,

quote, I find myself wishing I could go back and change things. I find myself thinking, if only I knew then what I know now. You didn't know not to sodomize and fucking murder and rape people. And you didn't know that. Yeah. That slipped your mind even after you were put in jail for it the time before. You missed school that day.

Wow. Only the governor can save him at this point. Only the governor. It him at this point. Only the governor. It's Governor George Allen, who is that the old football coach or the son of the old football coach? I don't know. I'm not sure. Because the coach of the Redskins throughout their kind of early glory years in the 60s and 70s was George Allen. He was a big, giant coach name.

So it's got to be him or his kid. He was getting older. It's got to be his kid. George Allen sounds like a name that would be very familiar and be all over the place, though. name so it's got to be him or his kid he was getting older it's got to be his kid george allen's got to be his very name that would be very familiar and be all over the place though but in virginia i don't yeah right next to dc it's got to be it's got to be a redskin thing i would think so george allen rejected clemency like a goal line stand yeah like a running back trying to dive over the top he said quote there is no question whatsoever as to toggle it's toggles guilt and uh he also pointed to the

u.s supreme court decision saying they found nothing wrong with it and neither do i so fuck it so there's an interview with toggle here his last day and he says quote they ask him well how do you want to be remembered, Lem? And he says, quote, it doesn't matter a whole lot to me how I'm remembered. Other people already had their minds made up. They don't have the time to get to know me. He said, my hope would be that my friends would remember me for what I am now rather than who I used to be. Kindler.

He said, kindler, gentler, kindler gentler more mellow more tolerant more tolerant he does yoga now jimmy he's a very he's got a coexist bumper sticker on his stolen truck now so it's fine remember me for who i am now uh about to be killed for killing fuck he said quote i do feel responsible and i take responsibility for what happened i'm very sorry that this has happened i'm very sorry that a crime took place at all but i should because i should never have had a gun yeah dummy you shouldn't have you just got out of jail for murder you're on parole so you definitely shouldn't have had a gun while he said he opposes the death penalty i'm not surprised in his position he he also said he opposes the death penalty. I'm not surprised on his position.

He also said he had surrendered himself to the idea of death soon after he was sentenced to it. Well, then he tried to escape prison, so he really didn't. This is a lot of self-serving shit. Twice. Three times he tried. Thrice. So, thrice. Not once, not twice, but thrice. It's a 90-day fiancé thing, sir.

He continued the appeal process, he says, only to accommodate the request of a female day fiance thing. Sorry. He continued the appeal process. He says only to accommodate the request of a female friend of his. Oh, by the way. No, he's engaged. No, I mean, the man has a fucking fiance. Five foot four, three hundred forty pound death row fucking execution. Imminent double rapist murderer has a fucking fiance i'm sorry i know people it's a man's role it's anybody if you can't find somebody yeah you're

fucking trying hard enough because this man is a train wreck in every aspect yeah physically mentally fucking spiritually legally he's a disaster and he's got a wow so not just a girlfriend willing to spend forever with him knowing well maybe perhaps it's just because she knows forever is pretty short fingers crossed on appeals he said you prepare by faith faith in god he's converted to catholicism now by the way after that priest cashed a check for him. He said, the person on death row is not the same person they kill. I have strong religious beliefs. I've come to terms with what I have done. I'm very remorseful, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of that.

He made arrangements for his body to be cremated and given to friends so his ashes can be flown to England. What? He's already purchased the $50 plane ticket, apparently, for an urn. That's the urn rate, apparently, ash rate. And he said that he has friends over there who are going to spread his ashes in a peaceful wooded area because he has claustrophobia, he says. Wow.

He wants to be spread out. I don't know if he expects people to just meet his urn at the airport or what the hell that is the dhl it yeah he spent two hours with his fiancee on this day and he had his last meal hell yeah and 505 i know you get excited about the last meal last meal for him by way, he requested that he have privacy and that his last meal not be revealed to the public. Ever? It took a year, and then it came out what he had. They revealed it a year later, but they did keep it there. The corrections officers did it.

He had everybody ready. Last meal was pizza and a tossed salad with ranch dressing. He really loves pizza. He loves pizza. They love it in this town. And a tossed salad. Yeah. You wouldn't imagine a 340 pound five foot four guy would be a real salad enthusiast.

But I guess pizza. Maybe just. I don't know. So at 9 0 3 p.m. The intravenous feeds are positioned every while the witnesses sit by they put them on a gurney um they do say i notice this reporter says something that they give a decent thing that when they put him on the gurney his shirt comes up and his stomach's hanging out and he's strapped down so he can't do anything so he says one of the guards actually

comes and like pulls it down and like makes him dignified at least before you kill the belly button sir that's decent thing to do anyway even if he is a piece of shit but so um yes last words come at 908 p.m before his last breaths are taken last words are by the way the date date here is December the 12th, 1996. Last words are Merry Christmas. And he's dead. Merry Christmas, everybody. That's pretty good. Not bad.

His friend says, quote, to see any friend to 13 years dying is very hard. You believe he's with God, but you're sorry he's dead. There's a freeing part of it and a very tragic part of it as well. I wish he said ho, ho, ho before. Ho, ho, ho. Well, they were saying, too, like in this report, saying he said Merry Christmas and he had a big beard and looked like Santa Claus at the time.

So he's this big fat guy. They're executing Santa Claus is what it seemed like right before Christmas. So they're like this. The reporter said he was a little disturbed by the death penalty ritual anyway, just the whole thing. And then he said, now it looks like they're executing Santa Claus. And it made it even creepier. I wish they hadn't put him in that red suit. Yeah.

He said, I didn't give a fuck about that guy or anything like that. But they put the hat on him and he's jingle belling all over the place. The black boots were a touch too much. That's the thing. The buckles on him. I said, this is the guy. The white cuffs. I guess it's really difficult.

Strange uniforms. They got nowadays. The gurney was a bit too far that was tough and the the sobbing elves in the corner that's difficult always mrs claus you know she didn't deserve this it's tough pulling the guard stockings to the wall was weird a little bit strange but he did have gifts for all except for the executioner. He got coal. Yeah. So that is Marion, Virginia, everybody. And that is a wild ass story. I got to say. Right. That's a crazy fucking story. Every week we do stories where I go, how does everybody not know about this yet?

Like these are stories where you'd think would be very famous stories and they're not. So that's why we do the show. The man escaped so many times. Attempted so many times. Killed so much. Two actual escapes and three're not. So that's why we do the show. The man escaped so many times, attempted so many times, killed so much. Two actual escapes and three other attempts. Right.

That's a lot. That's too many. It's a crazy fucking crime, but if you like this crazy crime or you liked hearing about it, I should say, you should review us on whatever app,

your platform, whatever you're listening to. Give us five stars or ten stars or however many stars you can. It helps the show a lot. It does. You should also follow us on social media as well.

We are at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, at Small Town Murder on Instagram, as well as you should go over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com right now. All of your merchandise, all of your tickets to live shows, all of your stuff there. Also, start listening to Crime and Sports if you haven't yet. Start this week. It's Mike Tyson. We're in the middle of a three-parter on Mike Tyson. It's unbelievable.

You can't beat that. Yeah. It's wild stuff. You know who Mike Tyson is. You want to hear us make fun of Mike Tyson and possibly get maimed someday for it? Well, there you go. Listen to that. Check all that out.

Do everything up like that. What else do we have to do? Patreon. My goodness. Patreon.com slash crime and sports. Everybody. Patreon is cooking. It's cooking hard this week.

We have amazing episodes that we uploaded that people have been going nuts for. We're happy because we really liked them. First of all, for crime and sports, Patreon, which you'll have access to anybody over the five dollar level or five or above gets access to both shows, bonus episodes, the whole back catalog. Anything we put out, you'll definitely have it. So there's that. The Crime and Sports one is personal ads. So you don't have to like sports for that.

We are going to read personal ads from old newspapers, and it's fucking hilarious because we really rip them good. And then at the end of this episode, we wrote for each other. We wrote personal ads. I wrote Jimmy's. Jimmy wrote mine. And they're wonderful. So you want to check that out. Then for small town murders, we did.

We looked at the watch the Lula Rich documentary on Amazon. And then it just reminded me so much of this book I was reading called Cultish, the Language of Cults, that I had to mix the two together. And we talked about basically how this cult language is used by these multilevel marketers to reel you in, keep you there, and how multilevel marketing and cults dovetail so amazingly. It's way too clean and pretty to be not on purpose. We'll put it that way. The puzzle pieces fit so lovely. It's a round peg in a round hole. It's just boom.

There it goes. Perfect. Working out. Looped up to it. So yeah, there is that. Check that out. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. Really, really interesting stuff there.

And get that. And in addition to that, you'll also get a shout out at the end coming up in a second here because God damn it. We appreciate what you do for us and we want to tell you about it. And in order to do that, we've set it up. So Jimmy will pronounce your name terribly. We've set up the two of us, the one who's the

the weaker reader to read the harder things of names. So that's that's how we've done this. Entertain you for your money. So thank you for that. We do appreciate everything you do for us. And if you just want a shout out, by the way, patreon.com slash crime and sports, that's that.

And then if you want just a shout out and to be a good person and have amazing karma as well, obviously, you can do that at PayPal also using our email address, crimeandsports at gmail.com. That said, Jimmy, I am hurting for it. I need to hear the people, list of people who would never, ever, ever rob my rural Vermont gift shop at Knife Point for $80

while another man is afraid to sleep in the woods. Jimmy, hit me with them right now. This week's executive producers are Mike Oilers. Oh, his Browns won back-to-back, James. Holy shit. So he donated because of that, I guess. Well, thank you to the Browns. producers are mike oilers uh oh his browns uh won back to back james so he holy shit donated because it's a miracle i guess well thank you mike thank you to the browns thank you baker mayfield i guess for getting some money keep swinging uh erica folks oh and that fucking miles uh what's the one that beat the shit out of the pat uh the the quarter that guy is un-fucking-real. I can't believe he's a freak of nature.

He is. I love it. He's an athletic, like an alien. It's amazing. And then Erica Foltz, Colin the Dude O'Brien. Say again? Garrett. Garrett Miles.

Yes, Miles Garrett. That's it. Miles Garrett. Garrett Miles. What the fuck am I talking about? You know what I'm talking about. It's interchangeable. Whatever.

You got it. Sorry. Melissa Turner, Brennan Keene, and of course, Jordan Bennett. Thank you guys truly for what you do.'re you're goddamn heroes other producers this week are doug spicer amy spicer's husband megan good's birthday is this week happy birthday megan what's that website she does it's uh the charlie's uh charlie's angel no no and it's not charlie's angels it's the one charlie project they do missing missing women and all sorts of stuff really a lot of great information there and a really amazing resource for that sort of thing

and then her her anniversary is at the the end of this month i believe it's her first anniversary right cool well they were we we helped them propose so we helped that proposal go down so we're very happy to hear that michael and me. Congratulations. And also, Corporal Carl Kirshner. That's what it is. Corporal Carl Kirshner. Yes, indeed. Liz Vasquez, James Marder, Arnold Ziffelhoor, Jennifer Visconti, Peyton Meadows. Somebody's birthday is this week, I think.

They're 60. She said, happy birthday to an old man. Every old man who turns 60. I don't know. Happy birthday to all of you old bastards. Hope your prostates are feeling good. And her Ruth. Dances with vapes and moccasins.

That's the guy from Love After Lockup. Patrice Blankenship, Maria Lewin, Thomas Smith, Mojave with no last name, Newton Davis. Ryan Moss is still a bitch, James. Seriously. Oh. He's such a bitch. Kathy O., Kelsey Kautz, Justin Kiso. What is this?

Alexandra Pressler has a birthday coming up on November 4th, and they donated now. There's no fucking way I will remember that in four weeks. So tell Alexandra we said hello and happy birthday in a month. Kelly Snap's wife Alexis had a birthday last week. Happy birthday. Nancy Weaver, Carly Durdzinski, Ellery Sharon Brock. She came to Phoenix for her vacation, I guess. What a terrible idea.

That's a bad idea. What a terrible idea. That's a bad idea. Jude Kendall, Karina Keaton, Marcel Destin, Janice Hill, Shane Prowitt, Crack Whore, Melinda Reed, Samantha Quigley, Tony Zamudio, Eric Bouchait. Happy birthday, Eric. I don't know how to pronounce that. Happy birthday. And her boyfriend, Eric.

Marianne Rodriguez. Jesse Pitts. Michael Grimm. Nicole Dorsey. Jacques Delisle. Jacques Delisle. Sally Hoare. Nicole Hoare.

Justin Baranica. No. It is Baranica. Baranica. Gay Woodhouse. G. Arroyo. Arroyo. Marie Sherman.

Abigail Constance. David. Oh, shit. Snitsatsky. Jevin whore uh anajali what is this an age analgia oh boy uh ala asia d valerie crogan the anthony with with an ie medellin median median what you are off your game today. This is a mess. I love it. You got a lot of complicated ones. Hannah Bogart, John Jatress, Heather Pohl. Yep. Shell Rose. What the fuck?

Andrea Beam. Kayla Kent. Dylan with no last name. Gabrielle Levesque. Levesque. Anna Jimenez. Sophie Weber. Addie Cote.

Becca Duggar. Sarah Piscitelli. Alexandra Anima, David, nope, that's Davis, Alexander Holmes, Tarnia, Chris Matthews, Tara Hostetler, Dalton Durbin, Gina, Jean, Jean, Han, Tarnia, what? Jean, John, Jan. Lizzie with no last name, Deanna, Miska, what? Migneco? I don't know. Kelsey Anderson. Jessica Tarot.

Gina Smart. Kristen Cunningham. Dotsie with no last name. Razzle Dazzle. Nate Osterberg. Kenda Kopp. Jacob Drozler. Emily Hall.

Veronica Solano. Shane Sapp. Ryan. Nope. Yeah. Ryan Smarka. Chitskoski. Dana Zupan.

James Weatherly. Wow. Jess Craig. 8080, 80 Chapin, Haley Hine, Eli with no last name, Aminia Juarez-Melendez, Doc Butt, Carl Moundfield, Dan Morris, Dory Cooley, Leilani, Locke, John Turkovsky, Pamela Haunus. This is fucking brutal. You're having a tough week jimmy is james adams nancy the relentless you're about three for 20 from the floor right now this is tough really throwing them up sarah cleveland chris zaka the pope's daughter that's impossible david kautz noel andrew not not notage colin resitter daniel ower katina revera lauren lauren jackson joe bailey caleb oh desjar loyles what jesder leis what the fuck are you talking about eric chivera tessa johnson christopher cost Lindler. Nobody's ever pronounced that Costello. It's Costello, right?

Yeah, I think so. It could be just Costello. It could be. I did it real casual, like I know it. Leslie Lindler, Kayla Spencer, Kristen Hatch, Nellie Mittens, Natalie Schroeder, Georgina. Yep. Warden Rhodes, Tyler Dufresne, Tara Shannon, Kyle Hilliard, Natalie M., John Casey, Yvonne Moeller, Rachel Zdzikowski, Edward Penry,

Graham Oatkin, Terry Kline, Jasmine Halikovinovich. What in the Halikovinovich are we doing here? What the hell, Kevin? If it wasn't the hell of a convention, we doing here. Sam Dietz, Joshua Johnstone, Jennifer Kolstad, Claire Owens, Lizzie, Lisa Craft, Jessica Cammy, Amanda Grubbs, Mason Hanson, Megan Kent, Alicia Gehring, Karen Herrera, Nancy Eggstrom, Amanda Davis, Sylvia, Sylvia Vermont, Vera Montes, Ryan Fenton, Jody Muti, David Head, Danielle Levy, Lisa Boyd, Levy. Maybe it's Levy. When I was a kid, my stepdad pronounced Eugene Levy as Eugene Levy.

So for my entire life, I can't say Dan Levy's name. So you're just all screwed up. It's all Levy. All of them are Levy. Lisa Boyd, Cheryl Huggins, Michael Cote, Daniel Horsch, Tim Hoare, Andy Toth, Miranda Wright, Stephen Maribeth Cronin, Michaela Jarrett, Brooke Haini, Doug Hoare, Jack Fanning, Leon Weaver, Jay Rudolph, Ginger's Giraffe, Greta McConnell, Jonathan Hoare, Aaron Tickle Middlebrooks, Brad Kane, Catherine Hohenhaus, Will Powell, Mia Chancho, Scott Loge, Lindy Trisch Anna Linden, Christy Edwards, Ann Miller, Game Cooper, Dylan Tobin, Kristen Redden, Moe Fields, Samuel Pickup, Sean Minogue, Lindsay Worthington, Danny Faber, Job, Job, Nielsen, Sarah Lewis, and Stacy Finnegan, and obviously all of our patrons. You guys are terrific. Thank you.

Thank you, everybody, so much. Unbelievable. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Every time we hear lists, I'm blown away by it, honestly. I can't even fucking begin. The support growth has been astronomical and phenomenal, so thank you all for being a part of this.

It's incredible. We will keep it up. We are not going to stop. We'll keep making Patreon episodes that are good, keep making shows that are good, and hopefully keep everybody around hanging with us for a long, long time. And we'll be very happy. What if they wanted to hang with you, Jimmy?

How could they find you out there in the world? You can find me on the internet at Wismansucks. Where can I find you on the internet? You can find me at Jimmy P is funny. Or better yet, just Google small town murder. You do that, you're going to find both of us, all of our stuff, all of our info. You can follow us as your heart desires. And we'll be there for you.

We'll be there every goddamn week. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.