Small Town Murder - #270 - The Murder Parrot Speaks - Sand Lake, Michigan

Episode Date: April 7, 2022

This week, in Sand Lake, Michigan, a disturbingly bloody scene looks like an open, and shut case of some kind of home invasion, that left a couple dead... Until one of them is not dead, and appears to come back to life. From there, detectives have to figure out whether there is ruthless, random killer on the loose, or if it's something much more obvious. The key to cracking the mystery ends up being an 18 year old African Grey Parrot, who seems to have seen the whole thing, and can act it out, complete with voices! This is one for the ages!Along the way, we find out that Michigan is serious about their lumberjacking, that just because someone looks & acts dead, doesn't mean they're dead, and that you should never say anything that you don't want repeated, to a parrot!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Sand Lake, Michigan, a bloody and seemingly obvious case gets complicated when one victim comes back to life and a pet parrot has something to say. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrogallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. We are excited. We have a really wild show today. If you couldn't tell by the introduction so yeah it's a great it's it's crazy that's all we'll say it's it's crazy we'll get to it as soon as we get this house cleaning

out of the way top of the show first of all thank you for your reviews they help a lot wherever you're listening pop a review and help out your boys thank you very much for doing that yeah thank you also this week if you're listening you know right when it comes out we are in pittsburgh friday april 8th at the munhall whatever the hell that is a music hall it's a nice place menstrual pennsylvania i think it's in yes menstrual pennsylvania the menstrual music hall very nice place though we're in pittsburgh come see us saturday we're in columbus that might be just about sold out but almost give it a shot though check it out and uh come see us and may 5th virtual live show yes for everybody wherever you are in the world and if you're not in a place

that we're coming and the next few months the shows are kind of sold out for detroit and and cincinnati and philadelphia and washington they're all yeah all out. So if you want to see us in the next couple months and you don't have tickets, May the 5th is going to be the time. Get those tickets at shutupandgivememurder.com That's right. What's up? Tequila and tacos! That is it right there. Let's get it on Cinco de Mayo.

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and sports episode one of the best april fool's hoaxes ever sports illustrated said a man was found in tibet that there was 168 miles an hour and the mets have signed him and the fan base bought into it lock stock and barrel and it was hilarious and uh they were very disappointed when they found out it wasn't true then for small Murder, we talked about just one of the worst people ever, Diane Downs. Just a terrible, awful person. She shot her kids and then pretended it was some stranger who wanted her car. She still won't admit she did it and just lies through her teeth and goes on and does all these interviews. We talked about how much of a liar she is on television with all these interviews.

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We do. Quickly, the disclaimer. This is a comedy show, okay? It is. The murders are real. The case is real. I know it sounds like, oh, they must have made something. No, we don't make anything up. This is all real, unfortunately. But we're comedians, so we make jokes about it. We make jokes about a lot of things, small towns, because we're all from somewhere that sucks, so why not joke about it? You know what I mean? We make jokes about murderers who go, I think I can get away with killing this person and then leaving my DNA everywhere. No one will figure that out.

We'll make fun of that. We can't help it. But what we don't do, what we go out of our way not to do, is we do not make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why, James? Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's how that works. So if that sounds good, great. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, I don't know, maybe give it a shot.

I think maybe you might be a little closed-minded. You don't know. Otherwise, if you don't like it, we warned you, so don't complain later on. That said, I think it's time, everybody, to sit back. You ready for this? I am. To clear the lungs and shout, shut up and give me murder. Yes.

I love it. I love hearing all the places people say they yell that to. Yes. I love it. I love hearing all the places people say they yell that to. That makes me the happiest. Like I was in, I was on an elliptical at the gym. It's a very inappropriate place. And I shouted, shut up and give me murder. And all the other people at the gym were very uncomfortable. I love hearing shit like that.

That kills me. I love it so much. So yes, continue to tell us the places where you yell along with us. That said, let's go on a trip, Jimmy. What do you say? Okay. Let's do this. We are going to Michigan.

Look at us. We're going to Michigan. We have to. And we're going to be in Detroit next month as well. Oh, yeah? Or two months. Sometime. We'll be in Detroit at some point.

Something like that, yeah. So this, we're going to Sand Lake, Michigan. Where is that? That is in Western Michigan. It's over by Grand Rapids, about a half hour from Grand Rapids. It's right in the 25 minutes,

half hour. It's two hours and 40 minutes to Detroit. So it's all the way on the other side of the state there. And about an hour to Hastings, Michigan, which was our last Michigan episode, episode two 33. And that was a crazy one. Michigan never disappoints. there and about an hour to Hastings, Michigan, which was our last Michigan episode, episode 233.

And that was a crazy one. Michigan never disappoints. No, they really up the crazy in that state. Michigan, like Ohio. There's a few. Wisconsin. We get great ones. Arkansas, West Virginia, Florida.

For some reason- There's about 50 states that do it. Arizona. Yeah, it's going to go through the list. The only ones that are really hard are like Wyoming because there's just not a lot of people there. So it's just the odds of finding crazy murders when there's that little is very difficult. So this is in it's in Nuevo County. The actual place is in two different counties.

But this took place in Nuego County. It is area code 616. The motto is this is for Ensley Township, which the whole Ensley Township is like the town that falls under the umbrella, and then Sand Lake is inside of Ensley Township. So this is for Ensley Township. That's embracing the growth while preserving the past. Yeah. Which is just pandering. Yeah. That's just they might as well say we're not sure what we're up to. We have no idea. That's hitting both sides. We like your heritage but we also are moving forward. Yeah. It's hard to. That's great. Good. I mean I don't know. Go for it. Not really a

statement. We'll celebrate the dumb shit we did and also change and be better. We can do all of it. Yeah. It sounds like obvious. Yeah, that's great. Tell us what you're about. Some towns will have the Borax community or some shit. Strawberry. Yeah, whatever. Strawberry capital of the world or something. Yeah. So this area founded in 1869. It's kind of a bedroom community for Grand Rapids.

You can kind of not live in Grand Rapids, but still work in Grand Rapids. Apparently, this started out as people were coming through here, traveling in the 1800s, fishing sand lake and then people property owners started saying hey we should rent these people boats and shit and like you know have like a restaurant they can eat in after they're done and capitalize on this you heard of fucking uh capitalism let's do it let's jimmy stretched his vocabulary to the maximum there he said let's capitalize have you heard of

capitalism shit i i saw your brain go oh no i already used capital but i don't know any other word for free in my head i was like is that what it's called i don't know any other word for the free market so i'm gonna just go with capitalism let's capitalize on open free trade. So, yeah, they started renting boats, fishing supplies, and they had, like, rooming places, too, so you could come fish for, you know, more than a day and you didn't have to camp. You could do stuff like that, make it like a, you know, a deal. One guy named Charles Adam purchased an old farm rooming house in the northeast corner of the lake and built a hotel in 1872 and named it the sand lake hotel so there was that now reviews of this town not much has happened since then put it that no no that's what i mean that it stops in the 1880s uh when new owners renamed it the north shore hotel and then it's pretty much it stayed the same since then that's okay even the populations like

stayed completely steady for like 150 years it just hasn't has no nothing changes here reviews of this town this is for ensley township which sand lake is a part of uh five stars here here's one uh there is a good community basis everyone basis good community basis it's a really weird way to say that right yeah foundation i'm like that'd be better yeah i think look at me look at you vocabulary man over here uh everyone knows everyone else i like that it is not busy life is slow paced i am out in the country where i feel like i belong just a great place to live that's a guy that cannot be a part of a society no no and we're that's for the best i feel he doesn't want us and we don't want him i'm in the woods where i belong that's good

we're all happy he's told me so yeah we're all happy when he comes out of the woods with his rifle we all need to worry that's the problem so four stars the transportation in this area is pretty safe the transportation is pretty safe. The transportation is pretty safe? What does that mean? Like buses or are there good roads? And there aren't usually accidents that get traffic packed up. So the drivers are good or the road crews are good. What are you trying to say here, person?

If you are walking, it can sometimes be difficult to cross the street because there's a pretty steady flow of traffic. All this person is concerned with is the traffic patterns. This is Rain Man wrote a review of this down. They're like, there's traffic patterns and sometimes that lets me drive. Lots of turn signals. I drive slow on the driveway sometimes and there's traffic. People operate. It's very strange.

Very well. Three stars here. The laundromat yes there is only one of them how many fucking laundromats do you need in a small town is very questionable but that's but that's the only thing i would be too weary of okay so because the laundromat is questionable you gave the whole place three stars i'd like to know where this person has been to a laundromat that was not questionable i've never been to a laundromat and been like this place is beautiful that chandelier is it's fabulous i gotta be honest with you i'm gonna this place is this coin operated laundry place is a piece of shit that's what everybody says oh massage sure don't

mind if i do this place is wonderful yeah i got i got 30 minutes till the dryer's done why not work on no cappuccino please it's on spin cycle please please i'll espresso we'll go espresso thank you i you have the best espresso here i understand it's a laundromat what the fuck are there machines that wash your laundry for change? Then you win. Success. I don't know what to tell you. Are there people waiting around in case you leave to steal your laundry?

Probably. Maybe. That's called a laundromat. This is from people who, both Jimmy and myself, have been to plenty, plenty of laundromat in our day. I've lost a lot of laundry. Oh, yeah. I've spent a lot of time being disappointed in a laundromat in our day. I've lost a lot of laundry. Oh, yeah. I've spent a lot of time being disappointed in a laundromat. Or come

back to find my laundry in a basket soaking fucking wet, because that's a laundromat. You're like, thank you. Now a stranger touched my underwear after they were washed. Perfect. Now I gotta wash them again. These have to get rewashed. Yeah. I don't know if they're fucking spitting or jizzing or doing whatever in my laundry. I don't know, people. You don't trust anybody.

It's a moist pile of cotton. Probably feels nice. Hey, you jizzing or doing whatever in my laundry. I don't know, people. You don't trust anybody. It's a moist pile of cotton. Probably feels nice. Hey, you jizzing this? You did, didn't you? Did you fuck my basket? Did you fuck my load? Did you put your load in my load? I think you loaded up my load and I don't like it.

I don't like it, mister. Step away from the laundry. That's a laundromat every time. Yeah, that's called laundromats. What do you want? Yeah. And it's like, well, if it was in a nice neighborhood, well, generally they're not in nice neighborhoods because nice neighborhoods, people have laundry facilities in their house. So generally laundry, it just goes hand in hand.

So two stars here. It is very difficult to find a job around here without having special connections to someone yeah nepotism runs the place it's a small town population 537 so yeah what what do you want what do you want man well you know go to grand rapids i don't know what to tell you down the road it's uh way more females than males here. It's like 55% female, which is an out-of-whack statistic. And the median age, too, is young. Usually it's like that if the median age is old and there's a lot of old people. But here it's not.

It's young. It's young and it's mostly women? I like it. Median age, 34. Uh-oh. That's not bad. This is great. Lower than normal, too.

And then you have, I guess, there's a lot of kids here. So maybe that's it, Jimmy. Maybe back up a little bit. Maybe slow your roll. Slow down. Five to nine-year-olds is a very high population. So let's stay out of there. It's very loud is what that tells me.

Every house has a cacophony of noise coming out of it. Family here, 51% are married. So it's about normal. A few more people are single with children but not an outlandish amount race in this town 94 white uh pretty white 0.0 black okay no no no not a not a black person in town fascinating it's i don't know if that's i don't understand that a 0.0 asian, 5.4% Hispanic. That's pretty much it.

That's the town. Grand Rapids is right there. It's strange, isn't it? Yeah, that's a- Wild. It's wild. Religion, 55% of the people are religious. I don't know.

It's a few more Catholics than Presbyterians, but it's pretty mixed up. It's not a lot of, nothing real heavy. Michigan's not real homogenous when it comes to that sort of thing it's kind of just they don't care do you fish that's what they care about got a donzie i like those what are you fishing for that's what you're interested i don't care about your god yeah you can't get on your boat with you you get me walleye this year that's the that's the question uh 0.2 percent Jewish. So not many Jewish people here. Politics in this town, or in Kent County, which is the bigger one next door.

I don't know why I have the Kent County statistics. I should have got the Nuevo one. But the town's like in the middle. It's on the border. So it's in both counties. So I don't know. Anyway, Kent County, they're about the same either way. It was 52% of the people voted Democrat, 45.8 voted Republican, and 2.3 independent.

The economy here, the unemployment rate, pretty low. It's under 5%, which is actually a little drop above the national average, but still extremely low. The problem is the median household income here is only $34,444. Really? Yeah, that's about $20,000 shy of the national average. So not a lot. That's kind of low. And then we have cost of living is $100.

Overall, that's regular. And here it is $85,000. So it's not too high. Housing is low. Median home cost is $214,700, which seems high, but compared to the rest of the country, that's actually very low. And if we've convinced you, you got your tackle box all ready, you're ready to go. Tackle box and abandoned God, we have the place for you.

Let's do it. We have for you the Sand Lake, Michigan Real Estate Report. All right. Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $932. So it's lower than the national average. So not too bad. But the real estate you can buy, here's one. You're going to love this, Jimmy.

This is an RV in a trailer park. Okay. Okay. You're not buying the lot. You're buying the RV. Just the RV. And the right to rent that spot at the trailer park. Okay. It only has wheels in the middle. You ever see them set up like that? Like we're here permanently, but not completely permanently. We can still pop them back. Yeah. We can still pop them back and take off at any time. It's inside. It's a nice RV. If you were camping, it would be nice for a couple of nights. But, you know, I don't know. For every day?

Yeah. Maybe you could leave with it. I don't know. Maybe you could take it somewhere else. It's 1,200 square feet in there, so it's huge. Oh, it's a giant. But it is $49,900 for that. That's not bad.

For a Toa house. I mean, that's not terrible, I guess. Then I found here a two-bedroom, one-bath, 920 square feet. Half the house doesn't have floors. What I mean by that is you picture it doesn't have tile or carpet or anything like that. It's just like plywood. No, no, no. I mean it's beams with dirt under it.

And I'm not talking beams that are laying down. I'm talking beams that are, you know, a few feet away, a foot and a half away from each other. Like the floor is framed out, but there's no flooring on it. There's nothing there. Dirt. So, yeah, you got that. It's a little scary.

And the bathroom is frightening. I wouldn't go anywhere near there for a while. How do you walk in the house? Just on the beams? It's only half the house. You can walk on the dirt. It's only like you know, a two by four width down. It's right there. Holy shit. You'll trip on the

beams if you're not careful, so I'd be careful. No running in this house. No, no. I'd look for nails too. I'd be worried about that. God damn it. That's $89,900 for that. Two bedroom, one bath. For no floor. 920 square foot of, there's about 400 square feet of floor in this place. And the rest of it, you're going to have to figure it out.

Then I found four bedroom, two bath, 1,620 square feet. So kind of your family home. Cinder block, kind of brick type of house. Wood porch in front. Big garage that looks like shit. An old barn that's half fallen down. The inside though is not bad. It's clean and kept

decent. It's old fashioned. It hasn't been updated in a while but it's clean and nice. That is $200,000 for that little joint. It's not that expensive. There's not really expensive houses around here either. It's not like, oh, here's where the rich people live in town. This one's where the rich people live.

It's a small town. Things to do, and this is from shit that's nearby because there's literally nothing going on in this town. Fish. Yeah. See the lake, don't you? That's all it is. Yeah. I don't understand.

Are you better than fishing? What's the matter? What's don't you? That's all it is. Yeah. I don't understand. Are you better than fishing? What's the matter? What's wrong with you? In Fremont, which is 40 minutes away, you can go to the National Baby Food Festival. Stop it. I'm not kidding. It is held annually the third full week of July. Family fun and celebration of children are the key components and are one of a kind.

I don't like the way that sentence sounds. I don't either. That sounds... You like green beans disturbing one of a kind no shit one of a kind national baby food festival yeah no one ever thought of that before weird right uh it's uh it the city of more than 4 000 i guess fremont that is is transformed for one week in July into the Family Fun Capital, showcasing Fremont as a great place to live, work, and play. Wow. The festival has been made possible through generous support of sponsors such as the National Pedophile Organization, NAMBLA. NAMBLA is a big part of it.

This is so weird. Jesus Christ. Nestle is involved in this and Gerber because they own gerber so yeah gerber life insurance as well and many more all gerber subsidiaries i'm sure gerber life insurance you can put life insurance on your baby oh yeah you remember those commercials they used to play like in the middle of the day oh yeah for gerber life insurance for your kids absolutely you never know this thing doesn't last it it wasn't right for this world. Your kid falls out a window. What are you going to do? Get nothing for it?

Write a great song. Yeah, there you go. That's what I'm saying. That's your other option. Can you play guitar? Write a great song and get paid. How well do you play guitar? Were you in Cream? Those are the questions that we need to ask when that happens. Okay. Can you play layla for me for no reason whatever then it says what would a baby food festival be without those baby-oriented activities? Even for those without infants, the baby crawl is very entertaining.

If you don't have an infant, why are you watching other infants crawl? No. Crawl around. You go around, prove that one of your kids is here. And if they're not, you're out. Out. If I hear you say wiggle for me, we're going to fight. Look at its little butt

go as it no no there's no you don't need to watch babies crawl get the hell out of here i'm sorry go home you need to go finally the logging festival here we go the logging festival this is awesome actually yeah it's uh it's the River Country Chambers Annual Logging Fest, sponsored by Elders Forest Products. It's a 70-year-old thing here. They say professional and amateur lumberjacks. What the fuck is an amateur lumberjack? I don't know. Who does a very difficult, hard labor job as a hobby?

Who does that? Who does it for fun? That's the way. Amateur plumbers from all around. Have you seen those guys that chop three pieces of wood off? Those guys aren't fucking lumberjacks. Those are just dudes that, I don't know, they race cars or some shit, and in their spare time they're cutting trees. You'd think you'd figure out that you had that skill while lumberjacking because you're doing that all the time.

Who's like, let me see how quick I am with an axe. What a weird thing to figure out um so they have all this is the schedule here sidewalk sales that goes on all day arts crafts vendors food trucks from 11 a.m to 7 p.m is the live chainsaw carving yes someone's gonna carve something with a chainsaw for eight hours right in the middle of town well i i got a feeling it's a lot of dudes making bears out of trees. I've never seen anything but a bear carved into a tree. They're rounded. They're nice and easy.

Yeah. Not a lot of detail there. A lot of claws carved. Yeah. You got an annual, the fire department's annual pancake breakfast. Yeah. Then there's a professional lumberjack competition where they're gonna have that then the next day we're gonna have like the finals and it's they

have the amateur competition at 10 and then the 12 o'clock is the professional one because you can't mix the professions with the amateurs obviously yeah obviously and then very quickly we have west michigan's longest yard sale is an event here. Yeah, it's a four-day event. It's just a giant yard sale. It's a 75-mile corridor of yard sale. Yikes. That sounds like, wow.

Say it again. How long? 75 miles. Of people's shit that they don't want? Of shit from people's houses, yeah don't want of shit from people's houses yeah a 75 miles of shit a 75 mile trash journey a gauntlet of a gauntlet of garbage you could call it if you wanted to get marketing on it wow that's nice so crime rate in this town what we're interested in here property crime it's a little bit high yeah i mean for 75 miles there's people's all their

shit out in their yard so yeah of course it's gonna get bit high. I mean, for 75 miles, there's people all over the shit out in their yard. So, yeah, of course it's going to get stolen. 75 miles. 75 miles. About 10 to 15 percent high. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is less than one-third of the national average. So it's pretty safe in terms of bodily injury.

Yeah, it's like a quarter of the national average, basically. So that's very low, very low here. That said, let's talk about a horrible, horrible murder that happened here. Actually, yeah, okay, let's do this because this is a... Wow, I don't even know. Okay, it's crazy. All right, anyway, there's a neighbor here, a woman named Connie Rehm, and she hasn't heard from her neighbors and they're friends of hers in a couple days. Which, right away, imagine if people came looking.

Imagine if your neighbors came looking for you if you hadn't talked to them in a couple days. Yeah. Wow. Would I have some boundaries to draw. First of all, stop watching me. Stop watching me. Unless you see flies gathering around the home in a mass amount. If you see that, wait like three weeks, then call the cops.

Leave me the fuck alone. If you see flies, it's too late. It's too late. Don't worry about it. Go on with your business. Proceed as normal. What are you going to do? Give me a chance to surface.

I may just be on vacation and left out a turkey. You don't know. You don't know. It's either a turkey or it's too late. Could be a roast beef sandwich on the counter. You have no idea. Either way, nothing you can do about it. Put it that way.

Nothing you can do about it, Connie. Anyway, two days. Right? Nothing you can do about it. Put it that way. Nothing you can do about it, Connie. You know? So anyway, two days. So she comes over once, comes over twice. And the first time she comes over, knocks, no answer. Whatever. She goes home. Whatever.

Maybe they're doing something. Busy. Sure. Who knows? Second day, she comes over and nobody again. And now she's like, what the hell? The dog's barking inside. She's like, the dog is barking. That's something. Okay, we got that. She goes around to the windows trying to see in. She couldn't really see in the living room. She goes around to the bedroom and she can't really see anything but like the ceiling. And she hears the dog barking, barking, barking, barking. i don't know what's going on that's weird whatever i'll go home then the third day she just lets herself in the house the door's unlocked she walks in you know she's like i'm gonna this is crazy now i need to figure out what's going on with my friends here um so she said it was she did say it was locked when she tried earlier, though, because this isn't the first time she tried to just walk into her neighbor's house without them saying come in.

So I get that she's concerned. I understand that. But still, like, I'm putting myself in this. I guess I'm putting everything in my in my brain. I'm like, oh, yeah, what a harsh. Imagine. Hey, you're home. What the fuck are you doing in my house?

I'd be losing my mind. Get out out what is wrong with you but um she said so it was locked now it's unlocked so she said that normally the house is very neat very organized very clean everything has a place she said this time it is uh extreme disarray is what she called it just there's shit everywhere strewn about things of the everything's messed up you know pictures askew everything you name and broken like a struggle or broken like borders like a broken lamp and uh is there's a broken lamp that's just you know all busted up and there's several items just strewn about there's like papers are everywhere it looks it looks it looks like like people have been like like there was a hoarder there and they're trying to clean it up that's what ransacked is a good word yes or rent yeah kind of ransacked or some kind of struggle who knows she just she walks in um so

she comes into she looks around she hears the dog barking still, looks around, calls them, her friends, and doesn't hear from them. Nobody answers, so she walks down toward their bedroom. And as she walks down in the bedroom, she found both of her friends here. It is 45-year-old Martin. He goes by Marty. And his wife, Glenna, she's 46. Durham is their last name. Just like the city, but without the H. So Martin and Glenna Durham, they're lying on the bedroom floor near the bed.

And she said, in the room, there's blood all over the place. It's a bloody mess in there. all over the place it is just it's a bloody mess in there uh she said that glenna's uh body was covered by a blanket with only her head exposed she could see blood all around her and blood all around him and uh he has no blanket on him and he's in his underwear and as bloody as can be and there's blood on the walls it's crazy and she also sees some bullets on the bed and she sees things like that so she's like holy shit obviously runs out of the house at that point yeah runs out of the house okay so um we have that we have this scene uh and a freaked out woman named connie awful yeah it's an awful bloodbath here that's just terrible clearly somebody has come in and done this couple in, and it's obviously bad.

So let's hear all about it, shall we? Let's find out who these people are. Marty and Glenna, 45 and 46. They've been married about 10, 11 years at this point. Okay. So we're going to talk about them in 2015. That's where we catch up with them, okay? This is a recent story.

So this all happened. 2015 is when she found those bodies. That was May 13th, 2015. So off. It's fucking terrible. Welcome to the small town of Chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper in this new thriller available exclusively on Wondery Plus religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community.

Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions,

and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app

or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max,

starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. I think are, you know, 2019, that kind of thing, like grown out of the house type of deal, but not like, you know, with families of their own. Marty has three grown children and Glenna has two. So they're almost a Brady Bunch just without everyone living there. They only have in the house. There's the dog and an 18 year old as well. An 18 year old African gray parrot. That is.

Oh, they have those things live for fucking ever they live baby forever yeah oh he's a teenager he's doing great yeah african gray parrot named bud so there's bud and they also have a dog and uh this bird he actually got this bird in his divorce from his first wife what she uh he bought they got the bird together he and his first wife and when they got divorced he kept the bird he kept the bird he gets to be like the bird the bird liked him they got along well so he keeps the parrot okay so my dog and my divorce so i understand yeah yeah he was psyched to get the bird i think he really likes the bird and the bird really likes him as as we'll find out, too. To be honest with you, I was more heartbroken about the dog.

That's like, I can't remember. That's a joke, like an old joke from the 70s. Yeah, yeah. Somebody lost a dog in a divorce and was upset about that more? Oh, God, it's like a Johnny Carson joke or something from the 70s. What do you think? That's an original thought? No, probably not.

You're upset about a dog? No, of was just really it's been going on for a hundred years you know what that's right i i was more upset about the dog yeah yeah no it's a it's a very true feeling that a lot of people have is what i'm getting i was trying to reinforce your feeling not to not call you a hack but then you were like is that original i'm like of course it's not the feeling we've all tons of people have had that do you think anybody's ever said uh that they're happy with some things that they lost oh that they're they liked their dog better than their ex-wife because that's the joke so yeah that's what it is yeah that's the joke yeah there it is yeah i'm reinforcing you though we all feel a lot of people

he seems to get along great with his ex-wife, by the way. Really? I don't know what it is. I don't know what was going on or why they got divorced or whatever, but they seem to be, it seems like they were married very young. They had their kids young and they got divorced pretty young as well. Like in their 20s, all of this happened. So it seems like maybe they've, you know, matured.

A lot of times, like that's what my parents did. And they were like by the time they were in their 30s it was like oh yeah we grew up together and shit yeah we know each other they were nice and friendly to each other they weren't like at each other's throats so awesome don't they like still talk about they talk to each other still oh yeah yeah oh yeah yeah my stepmother remember we used to be married or some shit like that my stepmother talks to my mom my stepfather talks to my dad yeah they all get along but like on their on their anniversary don't they isn't it yeah yeah they joke back they joke back and forth remember that we got married and had a kid together that's hilarious

isn't that crazy yeah it's fucking it's funny as shit i mean well i come from families that are like i can't talk to that person i'll have to get a restraining order god damn restraining order yeah they're the only ones that are very mature, my parents, when it comes to that. It's beautiful. Weirdly, yeah. Nobody else is like that, but they're good like that. Yeah. It makes it comfortable for me. It's good.

Remember when you got married and had a kid? Now they're in their 60s. They've known each other since they're 16. You might as well just get along at this point, you know? What are we doing here? That's a great point. That's crazy so uh marty in particular talking about him he grew up in grand rapids in that area and he's lived in

michigan his whole life his immediate family is around here a lot of them so yeah he stayed put his whole life um in 1995 this i believe after the divorce here, he gets into a bad car accident. Real bad car accident. Left him so severely injured he's in a coma for over a month. Oh, my. That's a bad car accident. Like, really bad. He has brain injury from it and everything like that.

Very hard recovery. The whole left side of his body was they just said it was shattered everything his hip his leg his arm everything was all destroyed he's in the driver's seat obviously it seems like he probably maybe got t-boned or hit a pole or something of that nature you know hit a pole like that but head completely messed up traumatic brain injury and um so after that apparently is when he met Glenna here. And she started to kind of she helped him get back to normal because it was 10 years. And he still was he still struggles.

He never fully recovers from this. Wow. That's the thing. When it first happened and for a while afterwards, he couldn't remember his earlier marriage, couldn't remember anything about it, or even the births of his children. And I don't know if that ever came back to him or not. So that would also be if both people had their memory like men in black wiped clean, like eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. You wouldn't have any beef with your exes. Everybody would be great.

But if when you got divorced, a judge, you had to both be present and a judge flashed the men in black thing at you and you were like, whoa, and it just wiped out your marriage. And you were like, how are you doing? Good. Oh, we should care for the children that we have, you know, in a partnership way, right? Yeah. Okay, good. Let's go parent like mature adults. Yeah, that'd be amazing.

Every year on our anniversary, we'll say something joking to each other. Yeah, maybe that's what happened. That'd be amazing. Every year on our anniversary, we'll say something joking to each other. Yeah. Maybe that's what happened. That'd be great. Yeah. If we have that technology, that's the first place we should use it, because I feel like that would help so many people. In divorce court, yes. So many families, so many people.

It'd be great. Unless there's a giant check involved every month, because that person's going to be like, why am I paying this bitch so much? Or why am I paying this asshole so much? And they have to look back at the documents. They're like, oh, I was a monster. That's why. My God.

Or they were a monster and this money is worth not being near that person. How many strippers have lawsuits against me? Yeah, that is true. That's not good. I can understand why she'd be upset. I should certainly pay this. You know what? I deserve it.

When you're right, you're right. I deserve it. So does she. When you're right, you're right. This is bad. I have to get an attorney. Jesus, I'm well behind on this stuff. So his daughter, Jessica, said that her father wore a leg brace and could walk

but would rely on glenna to drive him to doctor's appointments and stuff like that he couldn't really drive and uh she said it got worse as he got older obviously yeah yeah yeah because you break down yeah from 25 to 45 your body's a slight bit different. Tell me about it. Slightly different. That's why you don't see guys in the dunk contest at 45 in the NBA. At 25, they're jumping over cars. There's a reason for that. I can't look up fast.

Yeah. If something happens to the right, it's like, well, I'm going to take my time looking over there so I don't end up. It's like, well, I'm going to take my time looking over there so I don't end up. If danger is to the right of me and I look, no matter if I handle whatever's there, in the morning I'm going to hurt. That's the thing. You're going to be in a lot of pain. Fuck. What happened?

I looked to the right yesterday. And we're not even old. No. This is like 40. Yeah, that's what I mean. This isn't fucking 73. People are like, 40 is the new 20. Fucking Yeah, that's what I mean. This isn't fucking 73. People are like, 40 is the new 20. Fucking no, it's not.

No, no, no. They say that in showbiz so that actors and actresses can keep working. Keep getting work. Yeah, but your body is not the new 20 when you're 40 at all. 40 feels like the new 60 is what it feels like holding my neck what's the matter you sleep wrong no i took a step i took a step imagine your whole body was shattered to the point of being a call in a coma for a month and then those injuries you know metastasized basically for a lack of a better term into literal internal injury worse and worse oh my so uh yeah so it Worse and worse. Oh, my. So, yeah. So it got worse and worse.

But what he loved doing was spending time in the outdoors. He could still hunt because you could just kind of post up in a spot. So he could still hunt. He liked to go fishing with his sons and shit like that. That was a big deal for him. Two adult sons. They do fishing trips, hunting trips during the fall and, you know, all that type of thing. They were very

much into the anytime he could be outdoors he'd be outdoors doing his thing which yeah why not at least he could enjoy himself out there sure yeah you know it's not something he was that would his disability at the time would hinder you know so but i gotta say too he looks like a young guy too like really yeah there's pictures of him. He looks like a young 45. Yeah, he's a younger 45. You have to think of him like that. He's definitely a younger-looking guy for 45. Looks more 37 than 50, put it that way.

You know what I mean? That's great, yeah. That's what I would say about him. So he'd go to Montana every so often to visit his brother there. And this is, I understand they mean this in a very, very nice way, He'd go to Montana every so often to visit his brother there. I understand they mean this in a very, very nice way, but I hate the way they say it here. He said that this is, I think, his daughter-in-law, I believe. He said he was a good guy, very gentle, and he would wake the children up by tickling them in the morning.

Don't like that. I don't like that, but yeah. But I get it. But then again, my nephew, little Shay there, there he said i'll tickle the shit out of that kid because he asked you to he's like okay i guess i'll tell you and it depends on where you tickle him because i can tickle my daughter's nose when she's asleep and she'll lose her fucking mind if she'll wake up that's true yeah so yeah but she says he's a very good, that's obviously a joke, he's a very good gentle guy is what she said, very generous guy. Also, very a security-minded man. That's what's so odd about this whole thing is he's a very security-minded man.

He's described as being extremely cautious of strangers, which I'm more sympathetic, I could not be, and kept his home's doors locked and deadbolted at all times wow so again I get it that's fine so he's very much concerned about security and I think maybe part of that is if you can't really physically if you're a guy and you can't I don't know I don't know I'm only saying if you're a guy because I'm not a woman I don't know how if that would be any different in your in your brain but maybe it wouldn't be're a guy, because I'm not a woman, I don't know how if that would be any different in your brain, but maybe it wouldn't be. For a guy, though, I know like if you feel physically unable to defend yourself, you might be extra, extra cautious. Because you're always, even at five years old, if some kid's picking on you, I would have my grandfather going, we got to punch him in the mouth. That's what you do.

It's like a weird thing. You're like, really? Wow. Okay, grandpa. the mouth that's what you do it's like you know weird thing you're like really wow okay grandpa but if you took like a subaru to the hip and then yeah and now you feel yeah you think about like what if i'm in a vulnerable vulnerable position how am i going to defend myself exactly i think maybe that would but it was what it would be so whereas i feel like glenna is less she everybody says she's not as concerned about it maybe that that's just because she's more ambulatory. So that would make a lot more sense.

So they said that they're very private people. They didn't have a lot of close friends at all. His son said, and I love this quote, if he opened the door for a stranger, it would have been with a gun in his hand. Hello? How's it going? I just wanted to tell you the good news cookies huh what do you got samoa's there you're out of trefoils jesus i have tagalongs okay uncocks it keep talking reholsters it yeah reholsters it but again it's his house he wants

to open the door with a gun in his hand and just don't point it at people maybe they mean well but you never know i mean he's not going to get bum rushed is what he's what he's doing and especially if his house is a little rural i could see it you know who knows if he's feeling vulnerable i get it so he's opening the door with a gun in his hand not the first guy you'd imagine to find his wife and him and his wife being shot up and dead in the on the floor of their bedroom here yeah you think yeah he had an estimated he had a lot of guns they said uh 20 like long gun rifle shotgun type deals over 20 of those several handguns uh all sorts his son even said that he uh he kept some of them for his father because he had no room for them in his house.

He had so many guns. And his son had a large gun safe in his house, so he kept some of them over there. Wow. You got a room in your safe, put all this shit in there. Lots of guns, which makes sense, though, because they're hunters, too. So he's a hunter. I would think if you were a hunter, you would get into different types of guns because yeah and i like to fish yeah different guns yeah depending on what you're hunting uh you don't want a too big of a gun for something that's a smaller animal you'll just obliterate it

there's definitely different levels of things that you're hunting if you're hunting but you want you don't want too small of a gun for something gigantic too because then you got to hit it a bunch of times yeah i feel like that's that's probably correct. Yeah, like I said, I like to fish. So I know like, oh, I want to try this weight line rather than this weight with this lure and see how that feels. Yeah. I don't know. I guess that's what you would do. So they, Glenna and Marty, everybody says have a very like kind of fun relationship with each other.

They love each other very much, everybody says. And she's's her job is to be his caregiver that's what she does and uh she gets like money from the state for that and he gets money and we will talk about the exact amount in a second here but they uh they fake a couple of rough patches here and there they argue a lot but they say it's more bickering and most of the time it turns comedic it's they don't it's because they got married in their 30s like we probably all should do like mature people yeah that's the thing yeah they that's a really good point that's a really good point that's what it is yeah you don't get married at 18 and then be like this is gonna last forever probably not number one and number two you're

gonna fucking hate each other eventually well just anytime you're marrying out of passion, that's never advisable. Because even if you're older, look at love after lockup. It's the same thing where they're like, I love this girl so much. And it's like, your love can't make it work. Right. And also, you love her because you see pictures of her and you just want to fuck because you've been locked down for six years. You're super horny. That's the other thing. You don't love her. You you lost her and she's the same way because you're a bad

boy that's what it is that's what it is yeah it's danger on that show and but this this it's a different thing there they seem to seriously like each other yeah everybody said they love to talk shit with each other and that's the quote everybody said oh they're always talking shit back and forth talking shit and joking with each other people watching together yeah which is totally normal like i'm talking shit at each other too like you know yeah i do that with sarah all the time we joke back and forth that's our that's our should be that's the way we joke and we crack each other up with it you know yeah so that's what they do uh her uh marty's mother lillian said they engaged in what she called fun type bickering okay just yeah they're jokingly bickering like they're on a sitcom you know like that's yeah

picture that you know right there you go so it's like calling somebody a turd or a fart or whatever like putting scorpions in your shower plastic ones not real ones not real ones yeah like sarah did to me with the scorpion yeah shit like that that's fun it's that's how you keep it fun and and interesting my friend chris called his wife a lazy toad to her face and i was like nope that ain't it but that's not that's not wow because you couldn't get off the couch i hope that's an inside joke you guys have where you say that to each other and then go you just said that in front of your friend because of that one time remember and then it's a joke that just sounds very insulting and like when you left he was gonna have to have a lot of talking lots of explaining and sleeping on couches warranted as well because that's a crazy that's not a nice thing to say no

it's not i don't so but the and this is glena durham's daughter said that marty's mother said that one of his sons is both sides of the family everybody sees it the same way you know what i mean so they're just they're fun with each other among the jokes and these were jokes they would make to each other in private or public it didn't matter people family around glenham would say that she was i'm just waiting for you to die so i can collect your uh so i can collect all your money and your stuff and then they laugh about it well you're gonna have to wait a long time they'd say she'd say in front of him and she'd you know start she'd look serious and then they'd start laughing and she this is um the jessica his daughter said quote he would laugh

about it like yeah you're not getting anything from me other that, it didn't seem to bother him at all. And she'd laugh it off and they would joke about it. Well, I haven't got shit to give you, so good luck with that. We're only a year difference. We'll probably die around the same time. That's all. Yeah. She's like, well, she said, if you're going to outlast me, I'm going to have to kill you

because this has been too long. And, you know, joking around. These sound like the type of people that you wouldn't be terrible at a dinner party. They're not overly interested in strangers, and they'll joke around with each other. They're not too serious. And they've got a relationship based around health care and well-being of each other, so it's fun. That sounds great.

It sounds like a fun time. Only problem is they're having some financial problems. Yeah, that's tough. a little bit of financial issue they really shouldn't be but there's some things that are some problems that arise that cause this um they live very frugal apparently marty goes around keeps the heat down in the winter and uh you know the lights off and all that sort of thing as much a turn along what are you leaving the goddamn bathroom light on for? Electric bill. Very concerned about pinching pennies when it comes to stuff like that.

They wear thermals and sweatshirts in the house in the winter rather than turn the heat up real high. Not going to spend any extravagances on oil. Can't do that. Nickel and dime in the energy. Yeah. nickel and diamond the energy yeah well they like to spend they wanted to be able to spend all their money on their hobbies which was you know hunting fishing going places oh my god ammo's out of outrageous absolutely and also going to casinos is what they like to do as well oh they like to go to the area casinos which is a bit of a problem um they like they i say they

like to go to casinos but glenna really likes to gamble. Or I don't know if she likes to or has a compulsion to, but she gambles. Whether she likes or needs, she's gambling. She's gambling, put it that way. And the financial struggles are exacerbated when somebody gambles and loses and gambles and loses. That's not good for anybody so uh she kept she had a lot of debts going on um she'd compile little debts and credit cards and stuff that never she wouldn't tell marty about it that was the thing she was she was keeping this from marty for a long time here um the so much so uh that well her basically glenna started getting in 2010 just to give you a sense of how much

money they're making here in 2010 Glenna started getting $3,153 a month to take care of him as like his live-in caregiver and he got $1,100 a month in disability so together they're you know

$4,200 a month not bad not bad here. And we'll talk about kind of what their bills are. And they should be able to do just fine. We'll put it that way here. But the problem is she's not making mortgage payments. She's in charge of paying all the bills, and she's not making mortgage payments. They're making $4,200 a month, but they can't afford their mortgage, which is interesting here.

Very, very interesting, to the point where there's a foreclosure looming in 2015, and she hasn't told him one thing about it, nothing. Yeah, because she's going to put the next mortgage payment on it, and we're going to get it all back. We're going to get it all. Yeah, we're going on black, and we're going to get it back. Black gets it back. Let's do it back okay black gets it back let's do it that's my new let's do it roll that wheel boy so they he likes to hunt and he you know has like his shit all mounted like he spends money on taxidermy that's pretty much it taxidermy and ammo and stuff but um clerks at several gas stations around the home said that she often bought lottery tickets, including one particular station where they said she purchased 50 to 100 dollars worth of tickets three to four times a week.

Wow. Three to four like scratchers. Three to four times a week. That's almost two grand a week. That's a lot of money on gambling on that. And then she also went to casinos once or twice a week as well. Oh, Lord. Most of the time that was with Marty.

That was like their outing that they liked to do together. But he didn't know that she was also hemorrhaging money on that as well on the side. He thought just, oh, well, a couple times a week we go out and have a good time and she pisses some money away and that's fine. Oh, boy. out and have a good time and she pisses some money away and that's fine oh boy so during a 2012 trip to uh 2012 trip uh trip there uh to montana marty's brother said they couldn't travel anywhere around the states you know the west out there without glena wanting to stop at a casino really because you know there's those casinos on every yeah they're everywhere casinos they're everywhere yeah at west all over the place.

You just see a giant, huge picture of Paul Rodriguez, and you're like, what the hell is... Why is there a 50-foot-high picture of Paul Rodriguez in the desert? It's like, oh, because he'll be at that casino that I could barely see. It's back in the desert. It's so weird. It's from a vaguely Spanish name. I can't tell if it's spanish or native american it's just it's got a vowel in it uh at the end and i don't know what that means

yeah there's something i don't know what it means i think it's supposed to mean like you know beautiful falls or something but i see the lady from my dream virginia is going to be there so i do see barbara eden appearing, so that's wonderful. That's terrific. I like that. I'll be there. The love boat? I don't even recognize anybody from that.

Who's that, Gavin McLeod? What's going on here? Jesus Christ, man. I am just happy that Gallagher will be there. That's all I'm excited about. That's Gallagher, too, man. I am just happy that Gallagher will be there. That's all I'm excited about. That's Gallagher too, James. Well, obviously, but he's just going under Gallagher. What am I going to parse Gallagher's here?

It doesn't matter. It's an exploded watermelon. I'll be there. I will be there. Marty's brother Dan said he saw Glenna would pump $100 bills into slot machines without Marty looking and then ask him not to tell Marty. Don't tell Marty him. $100 bills? Jesus.

Hundreds in the slot machines. Dan said, quote, we always had to wait for Glenna to finish gambling. She took longer than everyone else. Yeah, I would say that's longer. $100 bills. Obviously, I'm not much of a gambler no that's the other thing gambling a hundred dollars seems fucking crazy i automatically think i could buy things with this and i put it back in my pocket a hundred dollars no yeah god no i'm lucky i don't

have that you know some put a benjamin in there Are you out of your fucking mind? That to me is like, oh, I'll stick that needle in my arm. It's the same thing where I'm like, oh, God, no. It seems like it'd be bad for everything I'm going to do. I'm just going to want to do it again. Yeah. I want to buy something for my house or something. I don't want to fucking do that. Eventually the light bulbs are going to go bad in my house.

Then what? Then what do I do? God damn it. Yeah, that's tough. gonna go bad in my house then what then what do i do god damn it yeah that's that's tough well in 2010 and this this is five years earlier and this is only in casinos mind you this isn't lotteries and scratchers and any other goddamn thing at local casinos in lot of money 75 000 dollars thousand dollars in one year oh my which is that's more than they make in a year together yeah that's crazy that's a lot of i'm trying to do math in my that's over five grand a month right yeah yeah she's yeah a couple times a week

you go to the casino that's oh my god you lose a thousand bucks a week at the casino you could and he doesn't know well no he didn't know that she sneaks or she sneaks it and she's in control she does all the finances she does the bills she does the you know everything so he doesn't know he just the checks go into the account and she pays the bills and long as he can buy what he needs and that's all he doesn't even think about it i am i'm frightened that's all he doesn't even think about it. I am. I'm frightened. That's so much money.

You don't think that your significant other is gambling away twice as much as you make in a year. Right. You know, in one year. So they started after that. They started to incur debts and they owed money to the IRS. They weren't. She wasn't paying their fucking taxes and shit like that, which is can't do that, man. That's hell, man. What the hell, man? That's crazy.

Even a collections agency tried to repossess one of their cars, and it was a mess. It really got really messy. With that kind of loss, you can write that off, right? As a gambling debtor, you can get written off, right? Obviously, I'm not a tax guy. Yeah, I don't know if you can. You can write off up to a certain amount. You can't write off.

$750 seems like too much, right? That's probably. I don't think you can write off twice as much as you make in gambling. That's probably. I hope not anyway. That really doesn't seem. That would be like if we wrote off twice as much as we made on the road in road expenses. I would hope.

It's impossible to do, right? Someone would step in and go, you can't do this. First of all, why do you bother? Second of all, how'd that happen? But this is just thrown in a way. So the car, she told Marty that she made the car payments and she didn't know why they were. This is a big mistake. And she didn't know what was going on.

And he was like, wow, OK. Like, he didn't know. He believed his wife. Why wouldn't you? steak and she didn't know what was going on and he was like wow okay like he didn't know he believed his wife why wouldn't you you know so um at the same time like i said he's wearing thermal underwear and they're wearing double socks in the winter to keep warm in the house and everything one of his friends said he wanted to buy a crossbow but he didn't he was worried about the price of it and didn't want to really buy it because they were struggling so yeah that's what i mean he's being thrifty and uh there's he doesn't understand that there's a lot of hemorrhaging going on behind the scenes and uh a lot of people are there's a lot of relationships too where

money is like that so oh my god i had an i had a neighbor's a collection agency knocked on my door and was like i'm here for the car and i was like what car and they're like they told me the car i'm like oh that guy lives down there and they're like oh yeah we're here to take it and and was like i'm here for the car and i was like what car and they're like they told me the car i'm like oh that guy lives down there and they're like oh yeah we're here to take it and i was like i don't know man so then they went knocked on his door he didn't answer then the lady came out two days later and i was like oh somebody was here looking for your car and she's like that's been paid off for two years i was like uh-oh somebody got a title loan oh yeah didn't tell you your husband oh boy this is gonna be ugly later now i know about it you went inside and pulled the blinds down yeah i gotta get away from you i just found out way more about you guys than

you even have any clue about oh my god that is horrible see see what i mean imagine don't talk imagine that you what if what if sarah did that to you when somebody came and knocked on your door and was like i'm here for the car and you're like that's what if Sarah did that to you and somebody came and knocked on your door and was like, I'm here for the car. And you're like, that's paid off. And they're like, well, that's my car. Let me tell you something. No, it's not. Be upset.

Yeah. Anybody would be upset. Oh boy. If you think your bills are paid and then someone tells you they're not, that's like all of a sudden the ground you're standing on doesn't exist anymore because someone repossessed it, you know? Yeah. Not because you're standing on it.'t exist anymore because someone repossessed it you know yeah what else don't i know yeah so uh so it's by april 2015 their home is in foreclosure

oh my god and uh some paper papers were left on the door a few days uh in early may but she took them and didn't show Marty. So it's to the point where they're posting. That was a piece to be a process server. I know that the foreclosure process works like that's, it's happening very soon. That's not like, Hey,

you better pay your bills. Yeah. That's, that was a year ago. Now we're into, now we're into the sheriff. It's been a while. That was a while ago.

Now it's the sheriff will be here on this date so to clear you out constable a guy that's called constable yeah it's not gonna be good so uh his mother marty's mother lillian said that marty was completely unaware of that until in may you know how all that shit's listed in the local newspaper because there's going to be an auction so they do that oh no his mother saw it in the local news but thank god his mother's an older lady who still reads a newspaper in 2015 yeah you wouldn't have encountered that if you were just looking at headlines online you wouldn't have seen that you have to be going through a paper and reading it cover to cover to see the notification of your son's house foreclosure in there yeah and she did and she you know told him

about it marty oh my god your house is in here says it's going to be auctioned off what's going on and he said i don't know i'll ask my wife she pays the bills and he asked glenn and glenn said no that's got it's got to be a mistake maybe it's a misprint of the address probably yeah one of our neighbors probably or something but it's not us we pay the rent so or we pay the mortgage so yeah that's it she said that uh she goes i'll call the bank and make sure everything's fine with the mortgage but it's i can't imagine why it wouldn't be meanwhile like i said for them to to publicly post it because that's a way of service also as a public posting to do the public posting like that is you're well past the point of i'll call the bank and figure out what's going on this is they've they've tried a lot to get a hold of

you by now there's been a lot of mistakes over and over and over again if we're already here yeah do you know how many phone calls have been ignored like how many right to the machine right to voicemail back then machine i guess still some people i feel like they have an answering machine i don't know why it's 2015 james they got a cell phone you know but i feel like it's there's still a house phone with an answering machine it might be yeah maybe it's because it's like rural michigan i don't know but i where you gotta flip the tape one of those no no no it's digital but it's an answering machine it's a digital it's like it's fun from the 2000s one of those you know what i mean so the one with the robot voice. Some kind of VTech bullshit. You know what I'm talking about.

VTech. You know what I mean. You know exactly what I meant when I said that. I do. It's the only way to put it. Or a Cobra. Yeah, yeah, some shit like that. I don't know why because I feel like in western Michigan I see wood paneling and answering machines a few years.

Wood paneling and VTech. This show brought to you. Ladies and gentlemen, this episode of Small Town Murder brought to you by VTech. Technology from a previous decade for the next decade. That's their motto. Yesterday's technology today. VTech. That's their motto.

Yesterday's technology today. VTech. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people.

With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes.

You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription,

Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened.

And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Fucking mess. So, anyway, she uh she says the v stands for five like five years ago five year five year ago tech via go tech five ago so uh she asked he asked glenn glenn and said oh no i use the auto pay so like there's no way it wasn't paying it. I'm auto paying this shit.

So Marty told his mother that, oh, no, we use auto pay. Everything's got to be fine. I don't know what the hell's going on. So April 28th is when the foreclosure papers were posted on the front door. Oh, boy. She swiped them away. He didn't know they were there. If he did, if he heard someone posting them, he probably would have opened the door with a fucking 12 gauge, I would imagine at that point.

Oh, boy. So now they the mortgage payments, by the way, were seven hundred dollars a month. It's cheap. Seven hundred. They make forty two hundred dollars a month. Mortgage payments. Seven hundred dollars a month. So they can do it five times.

Even if you're gambling, you've got to pay that mortgage first. Yeah. Yeah. OK, got to pay that mortgage first. Yeah. OK, we need a home mortgage first. Then we'll then we can piss away and we'll worry about electric bills and shit like that. But mortgage first. But instead, they said the mortgage payments hadn't been paid for a year, a year. Yeah. They said that's how long it takes around there to get a home foreclosed on.

The couple owed forty eight thousand dollars on the home, still on the mortgage, and $700 a month, and she let it go to foreclosure. At that point, too, in early May, when they were found in the house, they had $182 in their checking account, and their savings account had $118. That's not enough. Not enough.

Uh, and they also had a safe with a couple bucks in there and we'll talk about that in a little bit here. So, uh, the problem is there's other issues going on too with Glenna. Um, she's got the foreclosure going on and then in early May she gets,

uh, bronchitis really bad, like a lingering bronchitis that won't go away. And she is fighting with the insurance company because the insurance company has refused to pay for x-rays for her because her back hurts from this bronchitis and she's having a lot of problems. And at that point, too, debt collectors started coming around and calling about medical bills. So, yeah, it's debt collectors started coming around and calling about medical bills. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah, it's all kind of coming down. By the beginning of May, she's sick. She's fighting with the insurance company, debt collectors about that. There's foreclosure papers on the door that she's got to hide. Her world's crumbling inward. A lot is going on here. So, I mean, money is the problem. Her daughter, Laura, said it gets to her knowing she owes all these bills and everything.

Yeah. Anybody. Who the fuck could sleep at night? I can't imagine who you couldn't see. You'd be. Oh, my God. You'd lay there staring at the ceiling, just horrified with your life. When you had two hundred and eighty eight dollars in my bank account and my pocket combined oh my god

that is wild like i you that kind of debt is where it's coming from all sides can't breathe i've been there before if it's coming from one place it's almost like you can focus your energy on it even if it's an insurmountable something you feel like well if i could chip away maybe i can do something throw handfuls of pennies at this. I'll eventually get there. Yeah. But when you're sick and there's the, oh, fuck the foreclosure. And then I haven't told my husband.

So it's not even like we can deal with this together and we can support each other emotionally or any of that stuff. And then you got the medical bills. Dishonesty looming. Oh, the guilt is overwhelming. It's got to be a lot. So she at this point had also stopped taking her medication for depression as well oh no so she's got that going on too so her mind isn't when you come off any medication your mind is kind of scrambled for a minute there until you readjust to your

life without it and whatever so she had stopped taking that and um it's it's very it's it's not going well for glenna here now marty blissfully unaware of all of this shit he's just like well let's go see if the catfish are biting like he is he's just living his life he has no way of knowing it she doesn't tell him so he's just like she tells him everything's fine he goes i guess everything's fine with the bills let's we go about our lives that's it i got a new bobber with a smiley face on it see you down at the creek my job is to try not to hurt so fucking bad today right and be able to walk a little better maybe and you know see if i can remember the birth of my first child that's that's what i'm gonna get doing and it's tough i'm gonna work on remembering those those beanies that children wear absolutely little baby one the

pink and blue striped ones that they put on every goddamn kid yeah every try to remember that it's a standard yeah do they get i wonder if those are like given to a hospital like i wonder if somebody comes and drops off a bunch of beanies like the like the bibles in hotels like there's some jehovah's witness or something that comes there's somebody that does they have to. Is that just a thing, I guess? It's the same one at every hospital. Every hospital has the same ones. Pink stripe, blue stripe, because it's for everybody.

I wonder if it's from around the world, too. I'd like to hear. Listeners in other countries, they put the same little hat on kids in the hospital when they're new? Because I stole a shitload of those burp cloths from the hospital. They're like, we need you to go now. We need the room. And I'm like, like well then i'm taking

all of these with me you know what fine you walk out with your chin held high take these god damn i just paid a shitload of money for them to birth this kid so i'm gonna get that money back in burp right like paulie walnuts when he steals the espresso machine all proudly in the sopranos and he's angry that they these people had shit before we gave them the gift of their cuisine with our cuisine and he's talking all this shit and he takes it and sticks it in his shirt like that'll show him fuck this place i'm having this he has in his apartment that's i love that so much that whole speech is fucking i love pussy goes oh enough with the rape of the culture. That's my thing. Oh, enough with the rape of the culture. That's so funny.

It all looks strange. So poor Marty, though, his ex-wife said there's no way that he knew his house was in foreclosure because, well, here's a quote from her. Six or seven months prior, he had just built a very nice deck on the back of the house. Yeah. Why would you put that on there if you're giving it back to the bank? Yeah, and he did it himself. So you wouldn't have the cost of construction and the physical toll on your injured body just for the bank to have it. All the discomfort putting these screws in. Yeah, it's not going to happen.

in yeah it's not gonna happen and she said also a few months before a few few months after that he had a nice man cave with all his mounts built and uh and as an addition to his garage so he kind of put a little extra room for all of his heads all the shitty kills there his hunting trophies yeah yeah he does that there um she said just uh even in may of 2015 after the foreclosure papers had been posted he was painting his bathroom ceiling so you wouldn't do any of this none of that you'd be like let this fucking place rot hope they take the keys open the door and the whole thing collapses right down just poof poof all four walls pow pow pow pow it's just a flat pile yeah i want the bank to be into this like tom hanks in the money pit just gonna say when he opens the door the whole frame he tries to pull it open the door and the whole frame comes with it out and then all

four walls collapse and that's that the door frame falls around him yep that's exactly what i want to happen that's that was what it would be um so he's painting the ceiling so she said nothing would say that he knew the house was in foreclosure and um you know she must have been keeping it a secret also april 31st 2015 he has a hernia surgery oh god as well so man he's got that she's got bronchitis shit's coming from all angles you gotta wonder too if she gambles this much is this much debt, who might she be in debt to? Yeah. Do those casinos send, like, Sir Mix-a-Lot to fix it?

Who might you borrow money from to go gamble, too? You've got to think about that. Some loan sharks or something? To be able to spend that kind of money. Who knows? So there's a lot of things swarming around people's heads here. But we'll get to that in a second, when they first find the two of money. Who knows? So there's a lot of things swarming around people's heads here, but we'll get to that in a second when they first find the two of them. So he recovers slowly from the hernia surgery as well. He's having a hard time because his body doesn't recover quickly.

So May 12th, 2015 is when we enter Connie Rehm again, the neighbor here. And like I said, hadn't heard from them, lived across the street. Normally they talked and texted every day, but she hadn't done with it. The second day when she couldn't get ahold of them, she texted, or I'm sorry, he, her husband, Connie's husband, Keith texted Glenna jokingly. Where are you guys? What have you done with Marty? Ha ha ha. Joking around, that's you know just that's how they all joke so may 13th at uh 2015 at 7 30 a.m is when um connie or connie was going to work and she heard two shots fired that day or i'm sorry she heard it she heard it on may 12th that was the day before that was the second day she went over knocking. But from that area, there's so much hunting going on.

She said, you don't even consider when you hear shots that it's anything. You hear shots from the woods all the time. So she said that she became concerned, though, later because she received a call from her husband who said that Martin wasn't responding to his texts at all. So he texted Glenna, and thenin wasn't responding to his texts at all so he texted glenna and then she wasn't responding to the texts either so that's why after work she went over knocked on the door the windows everything's locked just the dog home and she can hear it barking in the master bedroom um later on sent them more called again more texts no response so the next morning that's when she went over to the house there. Nobody, dog barking, nobody there. No sign of anybody. So it's about 3.30 PM. That's when she went to check again.

And that's when the door's unlocked now. So it was locked in the morning, not locked at 3.30, yet there's been no activity from them for two days. This is day two of no activity. She enters the living room, sees it in disarray, like we said, steps over some blankets on the floor, finds Martin in a pool of blood. Then she sees Glenna lying underneath

blankets. Her face was pale. Her hair was matted in blood. Bad signs, usually. She sees Glenenn on the floor um she ran away she ran outside and the fucking crazy thing is there happened to be a garage fire like three houses down yeah so the fire department was there they were just finishing they were just finishing putting out a garage fire so she ran outside oh my god there's dead people looked over and there's firemen so she goes firemen hey when you're

done with that get over here right we got a problem you know um i know which do you which do you fix first i think you got to put a fire out if they're dead already they're they're gonna they'll be dead when we get there you know it's one of those things maybe take one of those guys and this is on fire to see what's happening i don't know how big of a crew tell you what you get two guys in a dalmatian go with her and we'll keep a few guys over here on the fire yeah that's a tough one uh so she goes and finds the fireman which that is absolutely insane that there was firemen yeah right there so she they walk back in uh through there and when they walk in the house again and she gets back in the bedroom she goes see because they just wanted to see if she was crazy they don't know this

fucking lady so they're like is this a crazy person or what she'd go she looks at them both and she goes there they are and she looks down at glenn and she goes, there they are. And she looks down at Glenna and she goes, could have sworn her head was in a different position. What? But she said, then she goes, it has to be my imagination. I freaked out when I saw all the blood, so maybe I didn't think about it. But I could have sworn her head was tilted this way and not that way. Whatever. Who cares?

You know what I mean? My crazy imagination. Yeah. I'm not a homicide detective. I don't keep track of things like that. So the kitchen, by the way, on the way in, showed signs of an interrupted meal. And it looks like the dog has been alone for a while here. Hasn't been cared for.

There's a half-eaten bowl of spaghetti and garlic toast on the kitchen table, which the dog hasn't been cared for in two days, but yet didn't eat the spaghetti and garlic toast off the table. That's a good puppy. That's a good dog. That's a good girl right there. That is a real good dog. Yeah. Yep.

And the pup is just hanging out by Martin sitting right next to him. Won't go away barking at people that are coming to the house. Adopt that pup. Connie fucking dog rules as dog. Absolutely. It's only 2015, mate. This dog could still be alive. For sure.

If you're listening and you have this dog, you have access, pet that dog, please. You should have a good puppy. Give it a snuff. Yeah. Get both ears and go, you should have a good girl. That's a good boy. Either one. That's a good dog.

So very nice there. Didn't eat the garlic or the garlic toast or the spaghetti. Next to the back door, they did see some dog shit. Yeah. But it's right by the back door. He's like, I'm here and I can't hold it any longer. Best dog ever. He shit in a shoe.

Oh, easily taken care of. He's even like, I don't want to get it on the rug, guys. I'm sorry about your shoe. What a self-sustaining pup. I don't have a paper plate I could put it on or anything. I'm a dog. So this is what I'm going to do. I would put this directly in the trash.

Can't get my ass that high. If I had thumbs, I'd throw this out right now. You understand? I just can't get it over there. What a great dog. This dog is amazing. So the firemen see this. They back out.

This isn't their gig. They're there. If there was somebody that needed medical help, they could assist there. But it looks like we're beyond medical help here. It looks like you've walked into a bloodbath. So they step outside radio for police and all that sort of thing. So police arrive. When police arrive, they need Connie to help with the dog.

The dog's barking at them. So what ends up happening is the initial police walk in because it's almost like everybody has to make sure that the other person isn't lying. She tells the firefighters, hey, there's dead people and they have to go, let's see if she's full of shit.

All right. They go in there, oh, she's not full of shit. They call the cops. The cops, they don't immediately send the homicide unit or the coroner.

They send a radio car to then go, okay, the firemen aren't full of shit and then they call it into the people they need so there's a real chain of custody here going on so um they the original cops walk in and um they look around quickly and they see several fire fired casing shell casings of fire spent casings also an unfired cartridge on the bed they see all this on the bed um there uh they are i'm sorry they see that on the floor oh yeah that was on the bed and then on the floor was a key to his gun safe as well that was sitting on the floor next to them key to martin's gun safe so um they end up they they just walked in saw this

they didn't check any pulses or anything like that they just they walked out okay secure that we're going to secure the scene till like a crime scene unit can get here and take care of it you don't want to walk in and disturb anything you know which just makes sense so they cordon off the house and do all that shit so an hour goes by oh my god yeah an hour goes by before the people who are investigating this show up to walk in there and you know kind of get knee deep in it so martin five gunshot wounds five five some of which were fired at close range and passed through his lungs and heart so oh god close close range um they were fired very close also one in his back so one got fired in his back so somebody shot him in the back shot a shot a

disabled man in the back that's pretty cheap took a car to his whole left side that's cheap and also and his forearm as well so that's a like a defensive wound probably holding his arm up and that's what he got uh his they do find in his hand he's got a handful of hair he's got a bunch of hair in his hand that he's gripping still like in in rigor fucking gripping with a death on the hand literally a death grip on the hair apparently um so they look over they do that first because he's the closest in the pool of blood. Then they move on to Glenna, who's also shot. They observe.

They can see a wound behind her right ear. So they see that. Her shoulders and hair and clothes are covered in blood and everything like that. And so the Sergeant Gary Wilson wrote, though, that he said she looked. So the Sergeant Gary Wilson wrote, though, that he said she looked she said, quote, she looked deceased, but I could believe I believed I could see it breathing. So she's like, oh, my God, is there he's like, is this there's there signs of life here. So he picks up her wrist to check her pulse, her eyes open, and she sits up like the undertaker with a shot in her head holy fuck eyes pop open pops up like the undertaker to an upright position and says what are you doing leave me alone i don't feel good no you don't and they're like well oh my god you're definitely holy shit this is fucking

crazy um she becomes combative right away she's clearly confused of what's going on they're thinking yeah what are you doing leave me alone i don't feel good you're sitting in a pool of blood next to your dead husband with a bullet in your fucking head with a bullet in your skull you probably don't feel good so we're gonna have to so he tries to reassure her saying hey no we're here to help you we're here to help you calm down but she keeps struggling and fighting they have to physically subdue her like a fucking you know like a drunken suspect somewhere in the middle of a bar fight uh and then they have to hold her down and strap her to a stretcher as well so she can go to the hospital because she keeps fighting they said the whole time she's fighting to undo the strap she's trying to grab adam she's yelling

at them she's saying what are you doing what are you doing why are you take where are you what's going on and they're trying to reassure but she's not being reassured it's almost like her tape keeps uh yes her tape keeps rewinding so then she's gets to the hospital she's yelling out her marty marty she's yelling out marty and martin and all this type of shit um she's giving brief responses in the hospital bed um she's saying she doesn't know what happened i don't know what happened i don't know where's marty marty why are you doing this why what the hell why are you doing this to me shit like that she's saying and then she told the only definitive answer they got out of her was whether anyone

else had keys to their home and she said no. So that was it because they knew the door was unlocked before and locked, then unlocked. That's all they know. Now, her neurosurgeon here, because she shot in the head, said that there are two bullet wounds on the right side of her skull near her ear, which is an in and out is the thing. In and up? In and up. Yeah. which is an in-and-out is the thing. In-and-up? In-and-up, yeah. It said that it was non-lethal, looked to be several hours old, totally non-lethal, and could possibly result in not even a loss of consciousness. Wow.

It was a.22, and it basically went behind, skidded up, and shot out without entering her skull. Anything, just skin wound. Yeah, pretty much sort of a skin wound, but there's little more to it than that, because in your skull, nothing is that simple. But they said that it could possibly result in no loss of consciousness, and it could definitely allow the person to be ambulatory and move around and do whatever. Unbelievable. definitely allow the person to be ambulatory and move around and do whatever. Unbelievable. Yeah.

So in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, she was saying, why are you doing this, Marty? As they were restraining her, she was calling the paramedic Marty and saying, why are you doing this? She also complained that someone was stepping on her hair as they were carrying her out of the house, probably because she felt the wound. And also when there's matted blood like that, it feels tight to your skull, and it probably felt like someone was pulling. So the police search the home pretty quickly, and we'll find out some stuff here of where they end up finding the gun. They find the murder weapon, but how is ridiculous how they find it.

We'll get to that in a minute but yeah they find the 22 caliber ruger revolver that's what the that's the weapon here they find a pillow with holes in it they find her cell phone which is a kiosera cell phone oh wow in 2015 yeah and then definitely has a v-tech and he has an lg phone my God. Neither of them are like there's no Androids or iPhones or there's no Samsung going on. They're far behind. This is a little few years. They just put it in their Qualcomm. Yeah, absolutely.

You can put songs on them now. It's not bad. Her blood was found on items in both the living room and the kitchen as well. Okay. So all of his is kind of confined. Focused to the, yeah. And hers is there. So hers is all over the house.

Right. So before the police can search the house, though, they take everybody away. I don't know if it's because it's a rural area. They have less people available, but they don't leave anyone to guard the house. They just leave the house behind and they go and then they're going to come back in a couple days and search through it and see what they can find. In the meantime,

Martin's kids break into the home. Oh? I mean break in. It's their dad's house. That's a technical term, but they didn't have a key and they went into a locked house, so I guess you could call it breaking in. I don't think there was any malice to it. They're obviously, they're curious of what's going on and they, I don't know if I'd want to break in to see where my dad just got shot and killed.

Is it no longer a crime scene? No, no. They haven't even, the police haven't even searched it yet. Oh, don't go in. Yeah. They haven't even done a thorough search. They haven't cataloged. They've done nothing.

Never go in there. They went in, they used a credit card apparently to pop one one of the locks so somebody's technology well done i'm telling you western michigan there's they're a little behind the times but they're getting it done yeah it's just like the motto you know one foot in the past and one in the future let's go this is amazing. This is fucking crazy. So they rummaged through each room. On the living room floor, they found a manila envelope on the floor in the living room marked personal. And it was also written on it, Jean Waringa, which is Glenna's mother. So they're like, hmm, they want to read that. So they're like, hmm, they want to read that.

So they opened the sealed envelope to find three envelopes addressed to Glenna's two children and her ex-husband Bob Norman inside the bigger manila envelope. They were single page letters. She asked Norman to take care of the children. Make sure you take care of the children and then ask the kids for forgiveness. OK, it says, quote, I'm sorry, but I love you. And so with two O's, sorry, I've been a disappointment to you. This is to her mother, by the way, to been a disappointment to you these last 12 years or so. Please forgive me.

You are one of the best things I ever did. Love, mom. Oh, that's to her kids. I'm sorry love mom oh that's to her kids i'm sorry yeah that's to her kids so sorry i've been a fuck up the last 12 years or so please forgive me my bad mom so um marty's children immediately call the police and say what they found even though they shouldn't be there they were like well we have to tell them about this obviously so they do um one thing they don't tell them is they also found cash in the safe okay they pocketed the cash though kids did 225 dollars in an envelope marked

mount i don't know what that was for and then 1200 that's for uh that's for uh to mount one of his to mount one of his taxidermy there you go go. And then $1,200 in an envelope marked Wave Runner. Damn. Oh, awesome. Oh, shit. Yeah. Oh, hell yeah. You got a Wave Runner fund.

I can't run, but I can fly on the water, buddy. Let me tell you something. Maybe I can't run, but woo-wee, you get me on the water, you're not going to catch me, buddy. Marty's, I like Marty, man. I'll tell you what. He sounds fun. Not really do I like this guy man. I'll tell you what. He sounds fun. I really do. Those Subarus can't hit me on the pond.

Hell no. No telephone poles out there. I like this guy, man. He seems like a decent guy to talk to. Just seems like a cool guy. So from what everybody says, too, he's just kind of an interesting guy. He'll open the door to strangers with a gun,

but if you know him real well, he's the greatest guy in the world. So I'm like, fine, I'm great with that. You know him and he answers the door with a gun. There's a joke coming after. Exactly. Yeah. I thought you were a pizza or something like that.

Yeah. Oh, man. Who? Damn it. You look just like that one Jehovah's Witness. I'll tell you something. He keeps coming back. So the detective here later learned about the missing money uh later

learned about this missing money from glenn's side of the family yeah and confronted marty's kids who admitted to taking the money they're not dishonest we took the money it was my dad's money so we took it they said why didn't you take the police why didn't you tell us earlier the police asked them you know what their answer was this is the greatest kid answer ever they're not even like small children they're adults but this is a great kid answer why didn't you tell us earlier quote you never asked i didn't know i had to didn't realize that you had to ask you but that's just funny so marty's ex-wife christina who is the mother of their three kids, obviously, she said the children fucked up. That's all. They fucked up.

She said she told a news station, quote, they're young. They're stupid. They made some stupid choices. Yeah, that is perfect. That's the perfect thing for a mother to say. They're stupid and they made stupid choices. That sounds like something very like I would say. Why they do a dumb thing because they're dumb

because they're pretty dumb they're young and dumb remember when you were young but you were an idiot too tell me all the perfect things you've done especially then so uh then they also got the manila envelope from them that had the letters from glenna to her kids and all of that sort of thing. A forensic document examiner deemed the letters to be in Glenna's handwriting. So the kids didn't forge them or anything. There's no conspiracy theory there. One of the letters, she apologized, like we said. It was very vague, though.

Apologized for messing up and being a disappointment. Shit like that. Nothing definitive, definitive though here. They also said. The kid Jessica. Who was his one daughter. Said she and her brothers found ripped up foreclosure papers. Among Glenna's belongings as well.

So whenever they would send the papers. She'd tear them up and keep them. Yeah. I don't know what good that would be. So I mean. The notes they're thinking could be about all the financial stuff and you know all this could be a lot of things yeah but it's enough to make the cops curious of what the fuck is up with her uh they also found out that she sent her mother or her mother got a text from her phone anyway a text message saying love you you, sorry.

This would have been right before the shootings happened. Right before those two pops were heard that morning. But her mother said she was apologizing for falling through on earlier plans. Because they were supposed to go somewhere. And also for losing money at the casino. Because I think she needed to borrow some or something. So that's how that worked. So right away, they set up a GoFundMe. Marty's kids do.

They started a GoFundMe, and they got like a couple thousand dollars in the first week. So they did pretty well. Hopefully, they got funeral costs. That's what they were going for. So good. Yeah, that's tough. So months go by with no action. Nothing happens.

They don't know what happened, who shot these people, what the fuck's going on here. So all of this shit here is going on. They're saying that, you know, it couldn't have been her. She had a shot in the back of her head. What's going on here? The guns here, though, and it's still in the house. It's very strange. They said they've been vocal in their calls for justice, but they won't talk really openly about.

They won't. Basically, like the family has information the police give them, but then they're not sharing it publicly, which is good because the cops are telling them not to to keep it all close to your vest here. So they said that the that he's definitely the victim of a homicide. That's all they'll publicly state. So they don't know whether it was a home invasion or what the fuck. They said, though, one of the officers, the lead investigator, said that events are unfolding quickly and all will become clear pretty quickly, he said. He says he gets a lot of tips all the time and he thinks that there's there's something there.

His daughter, though, says my biggest fear is that nobody will be charged because it's taking so long. In my heart, I feel like hopefully they're putting a good case together. OK, now, Glenna, what's up with her? Her mother told police that Glenna's last memory was three days before she was found. She says it's her memories gone was three days before she was found she says her memory's gone from three days around the shooting she said that she remembers nothing of the shooting and started to regain her memory a little bit once she was in the hospital of all that shit um they said well what happened and she said quote i know for a fact i didn't kill my husband she said that i know i

remember that part wasn't me um he she said quote i didn't kill my husband. She said, that I know. I remember that part. Wasn't me. She said, quote, I wouldn't shoot my husband. I'd be better off divorcing him and leaving him. Which is fair. Yeah, that's fair. Now, how did they find that gun? Because they weren't searching very well. Well, they looked under the love seat for it.

And you'd think they'd look under the furniture, but they didn't. They had to be told by Marty's cousin, a woman named Fran Phelan, who is a psychic. So enter a psychic cousin. Enter psychic kin into the fucking fray here, okay? So, I can't even, man. Police came over to meet with her on the back patio of her house, and she said she practices psychic readings. Sounds like one of those ladies with the sign out in her lawn.

Right. The hand and the pentagram. Yeah. You're like, okay, you stop there if you're feeling weird. So she said that she started reading from a notebook she removed from a folder to the police officers. She told Trooper Barry Wolf it was important to look under the couch or love seat of the home. You have to look under there. And then she also said that Marty and Glenna were right-handed and their hands would be important to the investigation.

They might check their hands very well and they found a handful of hair in his right hand yeah found a handful of hair in his right hand and the gun right where she said it was arrest her just Ruger single shot um yeah and so it wasn't till the autopsy that they discovered the clump of hair because it was being held so tight. Arrester. They said the one cop said it's amazing on how many homicide cases that psychics reach out to the police on everyone and anyone that's gone without an arrest for a period of time. There's always psychics that call with information. Now, the next question they asked her was, where were you at the time of the shootings? Yeah. Besides the house doing some bad things, where were you?

Yeah. Either psychic ability is real or you're up to something. I'll rest her. Let's talk about it. She said that she had an alibi. She's with her daughter. And she was. They found out it wasn't her.

She definitely didn't do it. Yeah, yeah. It's not her. I don't believe her. Here's what I think. I think maybe that the kids saw the gun under there and told her, but why wouldn't they tell the police?

No, that makes no sense. Maybe she went over and was nosy. Saw the gun. Who knows? How would they know about the clump of hair? Maybe she's psychic. What the fuck do I know? I don't believe it.

That's what I mean. It sounds so weird. This is so weird. But they clear her as a suspect. They absolve her of any wrongdoing. Any wrongdoing. She has an airtight alibi with her daughter in another place, I suppose. So she also believes, though, in her psychicness and her gut.

And both her gut and her tingle. Both her gut and her aura agree here we'll put it that way i like her tingle better her tingle her gut and her tingle both think that glenna has nothing to do with it either they're like don't blame she said don't blame glenna um so at that also so she said there's these are these are the things i know hair something with the right hand guns guns under the love seat. I didn't do it. Glenna didn't do it.

That's the things I know. Nope. So she said, though, that she testified there was probate hearings where Glenna and Marty's children had to fight over their possessions. Oh, God. And I guess this cousin, Phelan, she testified on Glenna's behalf that some of the things that belong to Glenna and not her brother. So the Marty's relatives started to get mad at her, according to her. Anyway, I'm not I'm not there. I don't know. She says that she claims that she dan durham um wrote to her husband scott like i said i wasn't there this is just what it said uh after the probate hearing in july 2015 quote you should keep a loaded gun at your side because who knows what can happen look what happened to marty oh my i mean that that could be taken as friendly advice or a threat i I mean, so she said also after a probate hearing in October 2015, an arrow was left at her home leaning against her garage.

And in its veins, there was a message attached to it that said, you're next. Oh, my. So, yeah, she says she's very worried about that. Now, she should know exactly who put it there. She's a psychic, but she doesn't. So I don't know. She just knows where weaponry is. She doesn't know who put it there.

No, no, that's the thing. I don't see who put it there. I just see it there. I see it after the fact. Yeah. I don't know who did it. That's the police job. I just know where things are.

I see. Oh, God. It's Chicago, and it's destroyed. It's flattened. What happened? I don't know who did it. That's the police job. I just know where things are. I see. Oh, God. It's Chicago, and it's destroyed. It's flattened. What happened? I don't know. Well, that's not helpful. We can't prevent anything if that happens, if you don't know why it happened.

Yeah. She never loses her car keys. She just doesn't know why they're there. Yeah. She doesn't know who put them there. Right. Doesn't remember. So the the family though

marty's family knows who they blame and it's glenna that's period they blame glenna um her his daughter said that uh she formed an opinion of what occurred soon after the body was discovered and they found the manila envelope with the notes that seemed to be suicide letters to her so she was yeah um so she's like i don't know um the one of the lead detectives said i'm sure the family has already made up their mind about what happened i work on evidence and things i can prove not gut feelings and hunches their gut feelings and hunches may end up being right but i'm going to get all the information okay so yeah i can't just because you think so i can't just arrest people which makes sense it's tough because the family obviously wants the thing to progress.

But you also have to go, hey, not going to arrest someone until I have a case against them. Right. If you arrest them and you can't get an indictment even, what are you supposed to do with that? Yeah. The word hunch doesn't sound good when you're a witness on a stand. No, exactly. Ladies and gentlemen, the jury would like to thank you for gathering today. We're gathered on a hunch.

Testifying in this case is Detective Smothers, who would like to tell us all about his hunch. There he is. Well, I had a gut feeling over a cup of coffee this morning. But Martin Durham, who is Marty's father, he says that he's not ready to say his daughter-in-law is a killer yet. He said, I'm not ready to go there yet. We don't have any of the information. He said, quote, I got hope that maybe there's something out there that we don't know that can change the whole situation. So that's the thing here.

He also said that, or I'm sorry, this is his ex-wife said he was pretty weakened out of shape and in pain and unable to protect himself this was after the surgery he just had she obviously got him at his weakest moment yeah now enter remember bud the parrot i do okay well you want him in a divorce bud the parrot was the other person who was there the whole time or the other being who was in the house we had yeah the durhams and the dog and bud the parrot now and the dog is just a good dog but the parrot he's a good boy with the parrot let's see uh there's a news fucking thing where they're they interview christina keller who now has the parrot who is his it's his ex-wife marty's ex-wife got the

parrot back now she got it back yeah she got it but she has another one she had gotten so she's like now i have two no i got a friend yeah yeah uh bud will be 20 that year by the way in 2016 but it was his 20th year and uh she said that since he she got the parrot here which was about two weeks after the murder uh bud has been repeating the same words over and over again what's he saying now by the way parrots tend to mimic voices as well they don't just say they mimic how you say it so they can become very good if they're around you a long time they can become very good at imitating your voice right like creepy good yeah and he she says or bud says over and over again in marty's voice don't fucking shoot don't fucking shoot don't fucking shoot

don't fucking shoot jimmy this is awesome don't fucking shoot in martin marty's voice can you imagine you got friends over having dinner and the birds just saying don't fucking shoot don't fucking shoot. Berms is saying, don't fucking shoot. Don't fucking shoot. And she says, quote, sadly, I think that was, they said,

do you think that was Marty's last words? And she says, sadly, I do. And that's what makes it so hard to listen to over and over again. Every day,

all day, he won't stop saying it. And it's his, it's Marty's voice too. Oh my God. So it sounds like, so it sounds like Marty's saying, don't shoot,

don't fucking shoot, don't fucking shoot, don't fucking shoot, over and over again, all day. And he'sy saying don't shoot don't fucking shoot don't fucking shoot don't fucking shoot over and over again all day say fucking fucking don't fucking shoot don't fucking shoot over and over again that's great i love a parrot that swears they call him a foul-mouthed bird and all of these the foul-mouthed parrot it's even more than that though it doesn't just say that she said at least a few times a week it replays the whole thing she said quote it sounds like because he imitates two different voices a male and a female voice very distinctive and she says quote i i'm hearing two people in an intense

argument two people i know voices that i recognize and then it says don't fucking shoot don't fucking shoot can birds get PTSD because I think it does know what they do this is the thing actually birds parrots like this and this is a problem like some people like after their owners will die because parrots live longer than people a lot of times someone else will get it yeah but it because their owner becomes imprinted on them yeah it's like in twilight there becomes imprinted on them. Yeah. It's like in Twilight. There's imprinting. And fucking, there's a, the owner, you didn't see Twilight, or you would have laughed at how shitty that fucking thing was.

It's really, really bad stuff. I like that laugh better. Yeah. Yeah. I like the uneducated, ignorant of the punchline inside joke, and you saying, if you'd have seen it, I swear to God it's funny. It's not worth watching the movie for. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you, that joke was good.

Don't waste hours of your life to get that joke, but I promise it was worth it. Trust me. And we trust each other enough. If you tell me what you said was funny, I'll go, you know what? I trust him. It was probably funny and I'll laugh at it. I thought it was funny. I'll go with him.

I bet it was funny i'll go you know what i trusted it was probably funny and i'll laugh i'll go with him i bet it was funny so the birds got the imprint that's what they do they imprint of their owners that they're used to voices so they'll have they'll be a bird that you know somebody dies the bird lives another 50 years and it's stuck saying the same thing from the previous owner because that owner once that owner's gone it stops its tape stops and that's its last thing that it heard from the owner is that's what it has wow because it's waiting to mimic the owner again and it's the owner's gone so it just it just keeps playing it's like a record that's skipping over and over and over this one's got don't fucking shoot don't fuck it has an intense argument between a man and a woman with its voice changing back and forth and then marty's voice saying don't fucking shoot. Don't fuck. It has an intense argument between a man and a woman with its voice changing back and forth.

And then Marty's voice saying, don't fucking shoot. Oh, my God. That's what this bird has. Is that scientific enough to swear that bird in? Well, we'll talk. You don't think we're going to get into that? The logistics of can a bird fucking. How do you get that thing to testify?

Can you get a bird under oath? We'll talk about it it the ex-wife said it's intense when it happens my house turns cold she said it gets very creepy um she also said of bud quote he was there to see it all happen and heard it it imprinted in his brain he can't let it go and that's awful you basically break a parrot at that point once your owner's dead. So she said that – and then they even brought in a film crew from like News Channel 8 or something. And it didn't do it while it was there, while the film crew was there. She said it happens a couple times a week, two, three, four times a week. So you have to sit around.

Get it on cue. But at one point it said something that people thought might have been don't shoot. Don't fucking shoot. They thought it might have been don't shoot. Don't fucking shoot. They thought it might have been don't fucking shoot, but they weren't near it. But they said, she keeps saying he's definitely using Marty's voice. That's totally Marty's voice, and everybody agrees. I wonder if you get that on camera, do you have to bleep that because it's a bird, not people? That's what I mean.

I think if a bird says fuck on tv you let that go right while reciting a murder scene yeah i think that's the news i think that's newsworthy fuck happens to be in it it's not it's not extra it's not some extravagance to curse in this that's what happened this is fucking crazy they do by the way end up getting it on film, and it is on the internet. You can find it. I can't wait. There's a Justice for Marty Facebook page about this case, and I hope it's still up, because I saw the video somewhere else, I think, first.

I believe the video's on there, if you check. But I mean, if you look at fucking Marty Dunham parrot fucking murder and look for the video. You'll find it. I mean, it's a parrot saying, don't fucking shoot. Don't fucking shoot. It's obvious. I want to hear it so bad. So that's the other thing.

Lillian, Marty's mom, who I like her too, just for the way she talks. She said, quote, that bird picks up everything and anything and it's got the filthiest mouth around. It only picks up curses. It's like a foreigner. It's the first thing itiest mouth around it's got it only picks up curses it's like a foreigner it's the first thing it picks up it's cursing i love it that's incredible eastern block foreigner just saying horrible things garner yeah it's like eddie murphy raw fuck you Eddie. I know you. You're the fuck you man, right? The berserker.

From Clerks. How would you like some making fuck berserker? How would you like some making fuck berserker? Did he say making fuck? That's the funniest thing. We've talked about this before on the show, but the way that the girl in that scene oh the girl yeah the way she reacts did he say making fuck is so fucking natural and perfect it's hilarious so she also olaf berserker american

girl love girls love he starts saying fuck yeah he's crazy it's fucking crazy man so he says she also goes on to say i personally think that he remembers it and that's why he's saying it yeah yeah he does and so does the ex-wife she agrees she said the bird has a habit of replaying voices of a man and woman locked in a fierce argument and that's what she said don't fucking shoot the whole deal um she said uh there's another uh thing here um so the the police want to see it actually the prosecutor wants to see this shit and they do uh when they get it on film which is also fucking insane it's all a light hearted nightmare on our podcast morbid we're your hosts i'm alina urquhart and i'm ash kelly and our show is part true crime,

part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes.

You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app. Or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early. And ad free. By joining Wondery Plus. And the Wondery app. Or on Apple Podcasts. They also.

One of the cousins here. Richard McCambridge. Asked the police. Whether he could have the bullet. That killed Marty. What? Which is a very strange request. Why would you? That's really weird.

Didn't know he was shot five times, and the police said that's evidence. A, that's one thing. And weird. Also, there's fucking lots of them. Also, you're really creepy, dude. Why do you want that? What are you going to do, make a necklace out of it? That's creepy.

But, I mean, I don't know. Maybe that's how he'll get over it. I have no idea. That's his grieving. That's his grieving process i guess so they said that the family gave uh the tv reporter a videotape that showed bud imitating two people in an argument clinging to the outside of his cage and his voice changes back and forth it's a two-minute video shut up get your ass over here shit like that oh yeah it's a whole argument. Shut up. Get your ass over here. Like, it repeats certain phrases. And then at the end, don't fucking shoot.

And that's where his tape ends, man. God damn it. Which it's almost like finding a murder scene where a guy got shot or a woman got shot and there's a bullet hole through the watch and you know exactly what time it stopped. And you can go, well, that's exactly what time the shooting happened. There it is. That's almost like you know exactly when it ended right there. So yeah the video was shot like a month after the death. She said that she didn't tell anyone outside the family about it for a little while because it freaked her out.

And then that's when she went to the media later on. And yeah she also said that she hoped the public would there would be interest in making an arrest and especially arresting Glenna, she said, because it's Glenna's fault. I know by the bird, she said, quote, she's just evil and mean and dirty inside and out. It's kind of crazy and a lot sad. Yeah, kind of crazy and a lot sad is a great name for this episode. Also, evil, mean and dirty inside and out is also a good one. Either one of those i think is gonna work too bad we can't say get your ass over here uh don't fucking shoot yeah so here's a parrot

uh the owner of casa la parrot in grand rapids there's a parrot house here yeah doreen plot cow uh plot kowski that's her name she tells ab she tells ABC that African gray parrots typically vocalize phrases they've heard many times, but the birds are also capable of using words they've only heard once or on a few occasions. They said they showed her the images of the bird using the language. She told the station that she, quote, definitely heard the bird mimicking an argument between a man and a woman. She's around parrots. She speaks parrot. She can get it.

She told the station that she also heard the parrot say, don't fucking shoot. Is that anything? Did it say don't fucking shoot? And they're like, shit, it did. Fuck this. If the parrot lady knows it. Yeah.

You know? But that doesn't mean that that's what happened right there you know what i mean she could have pulled a gun on him several times and that and the bird heard that yeah absolutely but then there would have been other things yeah taped over it right yeah good point maybe yeah unless that happened all the time unless it was that was part of their joking don't fucking shoot ha ha ha and then afterwards they laughed but the bird lady said in my mind that's definitely something he's heard. Definitely heard before.

And if it's fresh in his mind, he might say it more now. Unbelievable. It's fucking crazy. So does the parrot seal Glenna's fate? No. They said that they've heard the prosecutor, Robert Springsteed,

said, I've heard about the parrot. I know about the parrot. I get it. I know. He said, I'm waiting for the parrot. I know about the parrot. I get it. I know. He said, I'm waiting for the police, though, to finish their investigation and give me their report rather than just depending on the parrot info that I have. I'd rather not rely on Pauly, but.

You know, I might have to go back to Bud here. He said once they finish their investigation, we'll decide whether there's charges to file and on whom they will be filed against. They said, quote, there needs to be some evidence to support the idea of someone killing someone here. Said, although the law allows charging on probable cause, I don't like to do that, especially when you have a very serious case. Whether the investigation is done or when the investigation is done i like to be satisfied there's proof beyond a reasonable doubt right you can't believe it less than you're asking the jury to believe it you shouldn't anyway or else you're full of shit and you shouldn't have your job and i can't stand on the animal kingdom as witness as my best fucking evidence that's tough

i need something a little better you're also thinking about when this goes to like the state Supreme Court for appeals, they're going to go, what did they do in that fucking dinky little shit back? They fucking listened to a parrot. That's how they convicted. What is this, Turner and Hooch? We can't do that. What are we doing? What the hell kind of backwoods horse shit are we dealing with here?

Does she have a VTEC? Is there a VTEC in that house? If there is, I'm not dealing with them. So they interview Glenna now uh they're interviewing her more she and her mother talked with the detectives in an interview room because her mother helps her like remember things and about the suicide letters uh she said she didn't remember writing them here she said it's they sounded like stuff she had written in the past, telling her children on their birthdays that they were the best things she ever did. But if she had written anything to her ex-husband, it would have been kiss my ass. Oh, okay.

Not something nice. Like, I wouldn't kill myself and say something nice to my ex-husband. I'd be like, yo, fuck you. I'm out, bitch. Kiss my ass. Kiss my ass, to be exact. Kiss my ass. Kiss my ass.

Don't fucking shoot. So the two detectives also asked her about her use of her cell phone on the day before she was found. From 3.32 to 4.48 a.m., and we'll talk about exactly what was here, the phone was used five times to look up information about a gun in particular gun here um at the end of the search right after she was done searching the phone was used to text her mother saying love you sorry um she told the detective she never looked up any of that info and uh that she was on if she was on her phone, it was only to play games online. Sure.

Some way to gamble and lose money there. She would figure out candy or some casino game, something. She said she would never have killed Marty. She said, quote, I did not kill him. I wouldn't kill him because he was all I had.

She said she missed Marty and they were inseparable and they spent all their days together and she loved him. She wished she had died. She said she wished she had died so they could be together. That's what she tells the cops. They said, well, is that the reason you turned the gun on yourself then? Maybe that's why. Maybe you felt guilty after you did that. And she said she didn't feel that way at all and she doesn't know what we're talking about here. now the ballistics the guy going over the ballistics testing the firearm and doing all that shit he said that uh he he was asked to verify whether they came from the gun and all that sort of thing the expelled shells and everything he said there wasn't enough evidence to say it was a match and there's also not enough evidence to eliminate it so inconclusive the way they come up all the bullets which is crazy uh they they did describe how the

pillow was found with holes in it near the scene and they said that was shot through twice from close range now marty's mother again lillian she said that she never imagined outliving her own child she said i cry every night and i wake up thinking what's the court going to do what's the prosecutor going to do when is this going to be over with i can imagine that's because a year goes by oh with nothing that's oh it's heartbreaking those poor people jesus christ and then finally june of 2016 um the the prosecutor decides to file charges against glenna for murder they're saying glenna did it here um he said the yes he said he's very happy that the that bud the parrot has drawn attention from all around the world to the case

just what he needs in a small town yeah he said that uh thanks a lot you fucking bird he denied that the bird evidence hastened the arrest though he's like it didn't happen quicker because of the bird um he said but it has allowed him to learn all about African gray parrots. So that's good. He did say that, too, which is fucking funny. But he's going to charge her, Glenna, with first degree murder here. And she's held without bond now and arrested. So reason is, let's look at her phone records here.

They did an extraction, a file extraction extraction all this shit of her kyocera cell phone uh they got data from 9 p.m may 11 2015 to 7 a.m may 12 2015 so uh may 11 11 40 a text message was sent from her cell phone to a recipient who was mom, it was her number, there. At 3.28 on May 12th, the cell phone received a text from mom that responded to the 11.40 text. Wow, her mom must get up early, 3.30 in the morning. 4 in the morning? Jesus Christ. 3.28 she's up, Jesus Christ.

Maybe she got up to pee and saw it and wanted to return it. I hope so. Go back to bed, get some rest. Then the user of the Kyocera, her phone, opened the phone's web browser and proceeded to access the following websites related to Ruger guns. 3.32 a.m. Ruger safety announcements. 3.33 a.m.

Ruger inside and out. So she's looking at this like a manual. How to use it. Yeah. Oh, this is this. Oh, don't do that. Oh, you don't want to mess with it. Inside and out.

Inside and out. How it works. Like like the instructions uh 3 34 a.m ruger safety blue book 335 firearms course she is she's taking a very short firearms course 3 35 a.m ruger safety announcements so she did a three minute firearms course in four different areas of their website. Then at 4.48 a.m., sent a message to mom stating, love you, sorry. Now, nine seconds after she sent the text message, nine seconds, so she sent that immediately, accessed a web page titled, Ruger New Model Single Six Single Action Revolvers. And then no further web activity or outgoing messages occurred after 4 455 a.m okay um and uh yeah her phone and but the thing is she said well my phone's not password protected so anybody could have looked it up anybody can look up how to use the gun that

you have anybody who's in your house at 3 30 in the morning using your phone can look up the gun that you own. Yes, that's probably true. Yeah. But how did they get in with the doors locked and everything? So can the parrot testify? I'm riveted. I know that's all you care about. It's all I really care about, too.

But not that I don't care about what's going on. But I mean, in terms of like the legalities and the case of it, I need to know about the parrot. So can the parrot testify they said they have no plans to rely on the parrot's testimony as their whole case they said uh they said there's no way to prove what the bird is mimicking you know they said quote how did it get there is if there's no reliable way of making that determination you can't rule out that the bird witnessed a homicide or that the bird witnessed something on TV. Right. We don't know.

There was a similar case in 1993 in California. What? Yeah. Oh, yeah. This is not the first time this has happened. Yeah. There's legal precedent for this. We need Charlie from Always Sunny because there's bird law, Jimmy.

Bird law. There's actual bird law going on here. There is some parrot parables to this that you don't know a thing about, man. The parrot parables. That's the name of the show. Okay. Yeah. So it's fucking crazy.

He's an expert in bird law. An expert in bird law. How'd it get there so uh 1993 a judge refused to allow evidence from an african gray parrot in a murder case really um yeah and keller the ex-wife said i don't think he would be able to help the case on the stand but i think it puts the emotion out there like there's a dead man out there yeah so maybe just bring him in as like a mascot let him sit on the prosecutor's desk every once in a a while he goes, don't fucking shoot. Don't fucking shoot. Just to remind

them. Was it as ironclad as don't fucking shoot in 1993? Because this feels a little better. Especially, get your ass over here. Shut up. And there are two voices of the voices of the people he lives with and then don't fucking shoot and then that's the end of the tape.

He might as well have said bang, bang. Bang, bang bang did the other parents say shut up bitch bang bang they're right we're gonna put on a little show for us here so um yeah they said that um this is crazy the county prosecutor said he received correspondence from experts around the world after the story made headlines, but hasn't found any legal precedence for using the Byrd statements as evidence in the case. He said somebody from Lima, Peru said they used it in Peru, but that doesn't really do any good here in Michigan. Right. From Peru. It's on another continent, so it's difficult.

Totally different country. Totally different place. Do you really want to risk a potential appealable issue by pushing the legal limits? Yeah, an appeals judge, like I said, would have a ball with that shit. Then he said he had no intention of calling the parrot anyway. For one thing, how would I swear him in? He said, are you raising a wing, a foot? How does this work? He's trying to be a wise ass, but it's showing how ridiculous your question is.

Obviously, I can't swear in a bird, so no. Do you swear on the salt lick? Yeah. Swear on all these seeds in a pile, in a weird fucking ball on the floor of your cage. Do you swear on this seed bell? On this seed bell. Thank you. It's always a bell.

Swear on the seed bell. He's just pecking at it, your honor. I don't know if this means that he's accepting. Do you swear on this not rope? Fucking insane, man. So the mother-in-law here now, or the mother, Marty's mother, Lillian again says, it seems like it never gets over. I'm always waiting for something new to pop up. That's because that was May of 2000, or i'm sorry december 2016 she made that comment more than a year and a half

after the murder she's like i really would love to get this the fuck over with but um she uh they said though she glenn is fine they said she should be going on they said she seems to be fully recovered there was a preliminary hearing where she was like joking and had her wits about her, was physically fine. So they're like, what the fuck? She appeared in court in July of 2016 where her lawyer requested a mental examination. And they, you know, they delayed things until that. She was found competent to stand trial. She's held without bond the whole time, of course.

She's held without bond the whole time, of course. In court here, they have multiple witnesses because they have to get an actual binder over for trial. So in the preliminary hearings here, people describe the house as in disarray. And, you know, that wouldn't have happened unless they're trying to make it like the fact that it's in disarray means she did it because otherwise she would have cleaned or whatever. So the theory here, though, is that think about this. She had been shot for and she shot herself and was moving around for hours. They think she went out in the kitchen. That's why her blood was in the living room. She was just hanging out in the house.

And then when someone was coming, she got under the blanket real quick and then fucking that's why she said her head had moved from one side to the other when she went outside to get the fireman she like got up what's going on out there heard him coming and laid back down yeah that's the theory it's going come back i'm shocked she just laid there in a pool of her own blood conscious waiting for someone to find them so she could act stunning think about the level of depravity that is yeah not only because it's pretty pretty harsh to kill your significant other that's crazy anyway but then to lie there in their blood in a pool of it next to their corpse for fucking hours on purpose yeah hang out walk around shit wait let me go back oh yeah i'm super dead now yeah how long

would it take how long does it take people to come look for us jesus come on yeah that's well that's why she had to go unlock the door yeah she said oh fuck no one's ever gonna get in here if the door's locked it's gonna be two days so many times and won't come in god damn it oh the dead bolt she got up and fucking unlocked the door between then and then so someone could find her. Wow. That's crazy, dude. That's gross. That's fucking psychotic shit, man. That's wild.

Well, a parrot's screaming, don't fucking shoot. Don't fucking shoot. Don't fucking shoot. And cops are ignoring it. Yeah. So house in disarray. They said, you know, she said it appeared as if there was a struggle. Another witness described the living room of the home as, quote, once we walked in there, everything was just scattered all over the place.

There was a lamp on the floor. Everything was just ransacked in there. So exactly, ransacked, like you said before. They said that in the preliminary hearing, they bring up the bird. But it's not like, it's weird. It's admissible in this hearing, I guess. Not admissible as evidence, but it's not like it's weird it's it's like admissible in this hearing i guess not admissible as evidence but it's like anecdotal like if you want to if you're on the fence this bird keeps saying don't fucking shoot marty's voice i'm just gonna say and then they walk away it's a really weird thing so july 2017 is the trial and this trial she there's like the fact

there's dna evidence and things like that, but the fact that she had a gunshot wound in the back of her head gives her some, makes this trial not a foregone conclusion that she's going to be found guilty by any stretch. This isn't just going through the motions here. She's got a real good chance of getting off here. The jury is 12 plus two alternates. It's 11 women and three men. So they had the opening statements

and everything like that. They said that there's going to be DNA, firearms report, phone messages. All those Ruger lookups in the middle of the night are pretty damning. To me, you can, it's plausible deniability

except for that. You know what I'm saying? That would be very difficult to talk your way out of that. So coincidentally, you were just hanging out in the middle of the night looking up how to use a gun when that was used two hours later right when you're shot and your husband are shot uh using that particular gun that you're looking up yeah and you think about too it's hard to shoot yourself in like the back of the ear like that you would have it kind of up at an angle where yeah just who, whoop, go right up.

Yeah, that's what ended up happening. So they brought up financial problems. They said that there was a sheriff's sale of the house pending that very week. Right. So they were about to, like, they would have been gone in two days out of that house. They would have gotten kicked out. Do you think this was an actual murder-suicide that went wrong? An actual murder suicide that went wrong an actual murder suicide um do you think this was an attempt at murder suicide that didn't go

no no i don't because she hid the gun oh good that's why i don't think so if the gun hurt so bad she couldn't fucking do it again maybe that's i mean if the gun was next to her like i would say maybe she shot herself lost some blood passed out from the pain in the blood and uh you know whatever got freaked out and then they found her before she got a chance to try again or whatever but she fucking shot herself was like okay then i don't know she shot herself in the fucking head i mean you'd have to have a lot of confidence that you're doing it right to shoot. You know, I'm just going to give myself a flesh wound in the head is a hard thing to do.

Sure is. So I think maybe it was she meant it to be a murder-suicide, honestly, because she was at the end of her rope, man. They were losing the house. Everything was over for her. So that's really sad that she would find that as the only exit rather than, you know, go into her family and she, you can rebuild your life houses and everything. You know what I'm saying? It's,

it's really isn't. So you can get help for your gambling, but instead I think it was, I think she meant to kill him because she wanted to, she was tired of fucking taking care of him and didn't want him to find out that she's a fuck up. Yeah. And that he would have been right in arguing with her about it.

And I think she tried to shoot herself. She's like, I'm going to do it. Built up her whole thing, closed her eyes, gritted her teeth, and did it. And then was like, fuck, I'm not dead. Yeah. What do I do? Okay, well, now it's a home invasion. Yeah.

You know what I mean? That's what it is. I don't think she did all this and then was like, I don't think she planned this to be framed as a home invasion. I think she fucked up again. Then why would you shoot yourself in the back of the ear like that? I've never heard of that as a suicide before. That's a great point, too.

You put it under your fucking chin, in your mouth, to your temple. Make sure it happens. Those are the ways you do that. That's a weird way to do it unless you were trying to act like someone else did it. James, she's a Kyocera user. All bets are off. That's a really good point. When someone she's a Kyocera user. All bets are off. That's a really good point. When someone's using a Kyocera in 2015,

their thoughts may be scrambled. We don't know. Who fucking knows? We really don't. And it wasn't like she was 80 years old. She was 46. It's too young to use a Kyocera at that age. Too young.

The theories here are fucking endless, endless honestly you can go on it forever um so uh uh the uh the prosecutor said that it becomes quickly evident that the defendant murdered marty dunham and attempted to commit suicide didn't take so she said fuck it home invasion i'll hide the gun i'm passed out you can't find me. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Yeah. So the defense attorneys here, they took their turn with the openings, and they cast doubts on all the evidence. Obviously, the physical evidence isn't as solid as they say it is. He also questioned whether the influence of financial difficulties could have really been that bad to where you pull this off, yeah it is when you feel like it's

you're getting crunched in like that a lot of people are about to auction everything we're fucked yeah there's a lot of suicides over shit like that all of us i mean oh yeah it's common people can't take financial ruin they did it's hard um so they said quote they didn't have financial problems they had bill paying problems okay this is the defense i don't know how that's this is a defense she had bill paying problems that's not a defense um she had bill paying problems because she had financial problems yeah this guy says the state has to prove beyond without a reasonable doubt which it's not it's beyond a reasonable those are different without and beyond are different terms that glenna durham killed marty durham glenna durham did not pull that trigger and then the parrot goes don't fucking shoot don't fucking shoot from the desk of the prosecutor

so uh she uh you know she sat quietly and she teared up when they talked about her husband and her relationship she you know glenna sat there tearing up and all that sort of thing. So first witness they bring in is obviously Connie Rehm. And they ask her all about that. She explains that how it ended up happening. She said that her husband, Wayne, became fearful that something was wrong. She said that I think, oh, yeah, Wayne was out of town on a truck driving job and encouraged her to check on the house. Just go over there. Why don't you go over there?

I'm on the road. Quit fucking calling me about this and go over there connie god damn it jesus i'm at a way station connie for christ's sake i gotta talk to this guy that's easy to say from fucking broken bow oklahoma yeah just go over there and check it out pop in hell they'll be happy to see you all right click goodbye losing reception i'm driving on the res sorry i'm sorry can i get off the phone so i can listen to convoy again because i just want to hear it one more time so yeah she talks about how she heard the shots knew what time it was when the shots went off because she was going to work at that time it's the same time every day um and all that sort of thing knocked on the windows doors texted called heard the dog the whole deal um they said can you describe your emotional state when you found them and she said horrified yeah obviously no shit imagine if she said kind of horny i know it sounds weird i was wet i'm not gonna lie to you i was very horny horny was the only word that comes into my mind had nothing to

do with them it was just the whole environment i just got super horny it's how i get when i'm nervous i don't know i mean that was that was what she was gonna say but then she realized that sounds terrible so she said horrified uh Horrified, I mean. Horrified. Horrified. That's what I'm saying. So, yeah, she talks about she went out to get the fireman. Fireman recognized it as a crime scene, retreated, called the police.

They looked in, saw it as a crime scene, retreated, called more police. We went through the whole pass it down the line thing here. During cross-examination, the defense attorney asked the Sergeant Wilson if he knew who had been in the room prior to himself, to which Wilson replied that only Mrs. Rehm and a couple of first responder firemen were there. They also inquired about his testimony that Mrs. Durham did not look deceased, as she said, when she was breathing. She said, the defense attorney said, what does it look like if someone's not deceased? And the guy said, it's a different look. I've been doing this 23 years and I've seen it a lot. There's just something different about the way they look. Yeah.

Animated versus not. There's a difference between blood flowing and blood not flowing if you've if you've been on if you've been a cop for 23 years you've seen enough injured and dead people to know which is which is which probably you know what i mean probably from a pretty quick and how close to death an injured person probably is that's the other thing just from experience of being there every day you know so the defense questions the physical evidence as well. The defense attorney questions some of the details of the results of the testing of the stuff.

He pointed out what had been reported earlier, that there was no conclusive evidence as to whether the bullets came from the gun found at the scene. Like, it might not even be from that gun. Yes, he keeps all of his other guns locked away neatly in a safe, and this one was shoved under the love seat, and it happens to be the same caliber and make and everything else of the gun that did it.

But that doesn't mean it's that gun. It could be a different gun. The only gun out that fires the bullets that killed somebody. But it could have been a gun that's not there anymore. Somebody took that gun. Good point, but probably not likely. Probably unlikely. there anymore somebody took that point but probably not likely probably unlikely uh they also posed questions to the uh to the lieutenant and uh all this sort of thing uh most of the

inquiries had to do with the pillow here this is from the jury the jury submits questions to the judge to ask uh this lieutenant that hadn't been answered that wasn't asked by either the prosecutor or the defense attorney so that's pretty funny. And the judge actually asked them. He they asked that if it had the pillow having holes in it, they said, could it been have you could it have been used to muffle the sound and even possibly silence it? Was that why the pillow was there? And the lieutenant said that it could have an effect on the sound though not silence it completely obviously um another question they asked is it could uh could it still be heard by neighbors but the lieutenant said there's no way to determine whether that particular gun could be heard from that distance you don't know what the wind was like with a pillow that's you can't you can't even test that i would assume that a pillow is used more for concealing from the person that's about to get shot that you're holding a gun. I thought it would be for blowback.

So if you shoot them, it doesn't... Oh, to keep blood from coming off you? Coming, spattering back at you, I would think. I can only imagine it being used to keep the person that you're shooting from from seeing the fucking gun you know what i mean but they see a pillow from you that's got to be uncomfortable why are you putting a pillow over my face that's gotta be i mean like holding the gun behind the pillow and fire oh whoa i'm talking about like not blocking their face i'm talking because i'm talking about like if you see like i've seen in movies i've heard about this happening

in real life where like someone is like asleep and someone comes puts a pillow on him and bucks a couple shots into their fucking head through the pillow like in bad boys when the bad guy holds the pillow in front of the gun and fires the gun through the pillow so that the girl doesn't see that he's got a gun that's like having it in a paper bag it's the same yeah same deal just you know that's yeah okay we're on the same page now it's very confusing hilarious so the neurosurgeon who worked on glenna he testifies dr hayden boyce uh spoke to the injuries that glenna presented and was asked by the prosecutor about the possible effects of the injuries to the brain from gunshot wounds. And he explained that the bullet crossed an area of the brain not vital to life

and with no major blood vessels involved. So just a weird brain flesh wound that never, never happens. She's lucky. A lucky shot. They said that could this alter behavior? And he said that it could affect memory, motivational drive, and speech difficulty, possibly, but not like a frontal lobe injury or something that'll make you act differently. Maybe it'll take your gumption away from trying to kill yourself.

That's possible. Maybe it'll put some sense into you. Will it knock some sense into you? Is that a possibility? Or at least suicide sense out of you? Yeah, one of those two. So they asked about the prognosis and the reported quality of life. And they said that it might, who knows, depends on whether there's speech impairments or not.

But these injuries certainly would definitely not cause death. She was there for hours and didn't even bleed out. So, I mean, it like clotted up on its own. That's how small it was. They said, they asked him, you said someone could walk around? didn't even bleed out so i mean it like clotted up on its own that's how small it was they uh they said could they asked him you said someone could walk around and he said i said it's possible they said but you didn't see glenn and durham walk around correct and he said no i have no way of knowing what she could do afterwards this is that's the defense well you didn't see her do that did

you yeah i'm a neurosurgeon that worked on her at the hospital i also happen to be looking in her front window during the murder because that's what I do. I predict. There's a TV show coming out about me. I'm a psychic neurosurgeon, or I predict when people will need brain surgeries, and I go to their house and witness the event that causes the brain injury so it better helps me work on the brain so I know exactly what happened. You ever heard of it? We're doing it in the niche market. We're doing it for just bird owners.

It's just owners of mimicking African gray parrots only. So you don't have one. You'll see. You'll see. It's good. It's going to be good. It's just streaming. It's just the streaming TLC.

But we're hoping to get on the main channel soon. Just streaming for now. So the lieutenant detective David Johnson spoke of assisting the investigative team team in the collection of evidence uh there and uh the defense attorney inquired about the manila envelope because the chain of command of custody is all fucked up there the kids had it and who knows they hope they broke seals so they talked about all of that and uh they said know, what up with that, basically? Why'd you do that? And they were like, listen, we can't help that they broke into the house and took the shit.

They gave us all the shit they took. Is there other stuff? They said there isn't. So I assume there isn't. Who knows? We asked them that time, unlike the money. Apparently, once you ask them a question, they will answer it, honestly. That's's the thing and we asked them and they said no forthcoming when asked when inquired yeah well they want justice for their dad i would imagine so i mean they're gonna go with the program eventually here

they were just curious to fucking see if they could find anything on their own probably maybe they we've learned that all we have to do is ask. Yeah, that's the other thing. We just have to ask. We don't know, too, if we don't know this area. Is this police force known as one that you'd trust to handle the murder of a loved one? Are they good? Do they handle this sort of thing a lot? Is this normal?

Do they bring in state people right away? I don't know the factors going through these kids' minds. I really don't. So, yeah, they were asked about the money on the stand, and they said that the money was used to help pay for his funeral. And they said the money that was found that day was put in the funeral fund along with the GoFundMe. That's how that worked. So they brought in his son, Jason, who also corroborated the money was found and taken from the house. He stated he visited with his father the previous Saturday,

and he said he felt no particular concern for them at that time. It wasn't like, oh, boy, things are really coming to a head at dad's house. It was fine. He said they asked about the relationship between Martin and Glenna, and everybody, all three of his kids said they joked around a lot and everything seemed pretty good. We don't know. Another neighbor, Tina Christie,

she testifies that she was a close friend to the durhams often seeing them uh up to five times a week at their house for people who are private their neighbors are up their ass all the time doubt dude the next door neighbors calling texting looking in windows this person's five times a week this is enough with these for a guy who locks his doors all the time these people really are imposing yeah i from from his general the way they've sounded i don't think he wants all these people over his house all the time maybe he does i don't know stop all this attention maybe he likes the people he likes who knows man so uh she said they said that they did they ask do you know anything about their finances and she she said that Marty just said that Glenna paid the bills. That's all I know.

So I don't know what their deal was. She asked the they asked if she told a detective that she could not imagine Glenna doing anything like this. And she said she did. She said that she doesn't know what happened there. And she said, I wasn't there. I don't know. But I didn't think she could do anything like this which most of the time unless somebody's like a career criminal or you know in the mob or something like that when someone you know kills somebody you

generally go i didn't think they would do that or else you wouldn't have been hanging around them probably yeah that's the thing most people aren't like i saw murder in his eyes but i don't know he's a funny guy that's not normal usually he's just a good shit makes me laugh very few people are like i thought i smelled human thigh on dahmer's breath i thought i was pretty sure i blew it off you know how it is when you smell thigh on the breath you blow it off uh martin durham's mother and father uh they testify that's charles durham is father, and then Lillian as his mother. His father was shown the handgun recovered at the house and stated that the gun was his and that he had given it to his son for safekeeping.

So he has guns from his father, and then Martin has guns in his son's house. So because he doesn't have enough room for his guns because he's holding his dad's guns, he's got to give his guns in his son's house. So because he doesn't have enough room for his guns because he's holding his dad's guns, he's got to give his guns to his son. That's hilarious. They have this intergenerational gun storage. I got Pop Pop's guns. Hold mine for me.

It's so fucking funny. Look, I know it sounds crazy. I get it. I get it. We'll just get Pop Pop a gun safe eventually. But for now, we're going to have to make this work. So Jesus Christ, he said it was his his he'd given his son for safekeeping and uh lillian said the mother said that if she was aware of an impending foreclosure on the house uh she said there would have been conversations about it with her son and like they would have talked about it together they

would have figured out how to how they could help them like what the fuck here nobody would have just left it alone they wouldn't have just said well you two are ass out i guess they try to help um witnesses reported serving the the foreclosure papers there uh final witness for prosecution was jeff hoffman who is a detective trooper specialist wow that sounds fancy for the michigan state police uh he's computer specialist, testified that the phone belonging to Glenna had access to all the things we told you about, the Ruger things. During the cross-examination, the defense asked if he had any knowledge of what was contained on the webpages in the phone, and he said he did not. He also asked, were there any DNA or fingerprints on the phone? He also asked, were there any DNA or fingerprints on the phone?

And they said there wasn't. And he said, you don't know if it was Glennon Durham using that phone then. He goes, I have no fucking idea. I'm the guy who takes his shit off the phone. That's not my job to know who it was. Yeah, I don't really care who put it there. That's not my job. So they focused a lot on the envelope and whether it was a suicide note.

That was a big deal there. Okay, so the closing arguments come up. The evidence here, they say the evidence shows first degree premeditated murder, that she killed him then couldn't kill herself. That's how it worked. That's what we're going to say. DNA evidence pointing to Ms. Durham.

Existence of the cover up of the financial issues, her phone shit. God damn it. It's obvious. Now, the defense said that he's got a different thing here. He said that he questioned the evidence. He argues that despite the 38 witnesses and 234 pieces of evidence provided by the prosecution,

that it does not paint an accurate picture of the events. He spoke of reasonable doubt that existed in each and every element of this case. It's just a mess. He said, how can we be sure the other members of the investigative team were correct in their findings? Because they said it,

he reminded jurors that it took them an hour to discover that she was even alive. They're like, they didn't even check to see if everybody was dead till then. Who knows what else they fucked up on. He then says, all they did was show smoke and mirrors to you people. Liars.

The state comes back and does their rebuttal and says this was not just about financial problems. There was a betrayal of trust. She lied about the foreclosure notice being an error and lied about taking care of it. Then she shot Marty dead and tried to kill herself. The bill came due that and marty paid for it with his life mic drop that's what that was he went and then he he did a crotch chop to the defense attorney on the way back to the table

like that sounded good and you and you know it bitch yeah so nine men and our nine women and three men ended up making the 12, the deciding jurors here. They failed to reach a verdict in the first day after four hours. So, they bring them back the next day. And they finally reached a verdict after nine hours of deliberation over two days. Wow. Not open and shut at all. There's a lot of talk going on here about all this shit. So they had to go home, come back, deliberate again.

They ate some lunch and then they were ready. Sometimes all you need is a sandwich and you can see things clearly. Yeah, yeah. Don't underestimate a good sandwich, Jimmy. It often lends to much more comfort and really just comfort and decision making when your belly's good and full. Oh, absolutely. You know no matter what, you don't need another sandwich for a while, so you're happy. So the verdict comes in after nine hours.

Prosecutors are biting their nails. Defense attorneys are thinking this is a good sign. They took a little while here. And she is found guilty of both murder in the first degree oh premeditated and felony firearms charge as well so murder of both reactions here the uh prosecutor said justice was served today for marty durham the victim of this murder and then his ex-wife marty's ex-wife christina said we're happy glenna is finally convicted sad it took over two years to happen. This is July of 2017, by the way. And we give gratitude and thanks to the 12 fine people of Nuevo that took the time and made the hard decision to convict Glenna.

Sentencing comes around. Would you like to speak, Glenna? She's got to, like, do something. What is she going to say? No thanks. Oh, not a word? I'm good. Wow um yeah lillian she gets to talk though for the victim the mother marty's mother and she's got some shit to say she said that

they called it in the paper quote a stinging rebuke to the woman who had been her daughter-in-law she spoke of never getting another chance to talk with her son and she said you can all you want, but you're the one who you're going to be in prison. You'll still be able to see your family. You'll still be able to do that. She said, you sat there expressing no emotion through the whole trial. She said, how cold? Yeah. The judge has his own words to say here.

He says, you, ma'am, may fuck off life without parole son of a bitch god and two years for the felony firearms conviction which really doesn't matter because she's life without so quickly here december 23rd 2020 she's trying to she put her her case in to see if she can get an appeal going here for one of her things december 23rd 2020 they gave her the decision she uh durham appealed to the michigan court of appeals contending that evidence admitted in court shows the title of the website she had visited on her cell phone in the morning of the murder constituted inadmissible hearsay and was unfairly prejudicial oh that's what she's going on this she put this appeal in in April 2020.

And waited fucking eight months for this? Yeah, waited until December 23rd. Yeah. She said the titles of the websites were all Ruger-related, which was the type of gun she shot her husband with, obviously. A court of appeals judges disagreed with her, though. They said that although the evidence does not disclose the content of the web pages or the purposes for which the user accessed them, reasonable jurors could infer from the evidence that the defendant had accessed the web pages related to the murder weapon in contemplation of killing Martin. The evidence was relevant because it had a tendency to make the existence of the state of mind required for first-degree premeditated murder more probable.

She could have got off with some second degree if she didn't have all this shit. Right. That's the thing. She's just like, it's inflammatory. Yeah. They said that she will not be allowed to appeal the judgment. Oh, my God. I'm sorry.

That was a judgment that happened in April of 2019. She appealed that judgment and didn't get an answer until December 23rd, 2020. Wow. COVID. Remember? You bet. That was hard. that judgment and didn't get an answer until december 23rd 2020 wow covid remember you bet that was hard um and they said the michigan supreme court on december 23rd said quote it is denied because we are not persuaded that the questions presented should be reviewed by this court the motion to remand is denied merry christmas bitch sorry about covid merry christmas

have a good one um the ex-wife here reaction just says we would just like to say we are glad that she will never get out of prison and we are hoping that our family is now able to move on she said we want to remember marty not fight for him anymore yeah fair and we hope bob stops talking soon yeah bud keeps fucking talking then she says after marty's murder my kids brought me the bird. He used to be mine, and I have another parrot here, so it makes sense to give him to me. Anyway, a few weeks after Bud being here, he started ranting in the voices. She goes on to talk about that.

She said that she was upset that the bird saw what happened to Marty, and it's hard. They did say, though, Keller said bud helped us get to get attention for marty's murder and i believe to put pressure on the prosecutor to make the arrest with all the people like well what the fuck now rather than it just being some small town thing that goes away and it's just the family fighting right that's hard so uh she also said that uh that the order saying there's going to be no uh no appeal is a big relief to the family. She said, especially to Marty's mom, she seemed to stress about it more, more about the fact that Glenna was even allowed to appeal.

Now she can be at ease and continue to move on. So you can check that out and you can check out Justice for Marty for some other, you know, some current shit going on with it and they'll keep up with everything like that. I assume they've kept the page up since her appeals process was just, you know, a year and a half ago. So I assume it's up. And you can check out the video of Bud the parrot throwing down and doing his damn thing.

Check it out. One of the best impressions. It's wild, man. Better impressions than Jay Pharoah. And he's pretty good he is yeah he's he by the way i i just don't want anyone to think we're taking a shot at jay farrow because he is the nicest fucking man i've ever met i opened for him once and he is years excellent excellent impressionist first of all. And just a kind. This was when he was on SNL, too. He was like hot shit.

And he was a kind. I was part of his team that weekend. We're going to just tell Eddie Murphy raw jokes back and forth, finishing the lines from each other. He's a great guy. What a cool dude. And I got cut from the weekend at the other club in town. I remember that. We were both supposed to be there at New Year's Eve that year, and it turned out that, yeah, something happened.

And I got bumped because somebody brought their feature. That's right. And that feature bombed for 20 minutes. Oh, that's right. And I had like a fun time with Jay Pharoah. Yeah. And the headliner that weekend went on to try to touch young girls. That's right.

He was on stage singing my name in an opera voice after I introduced him. Pietro Gallo. He was like singing in Italian. He goes, I love that fucking name. You were having a dream weekend, and I was horrified. Yeah, it was bad.

I was having fun at least. Not a dream, but a fun. I only made $150 for all of you. Let's not go crazy. Not a dream weekend. Just having a good time at the comedy club with a comedian, but yeah. Just's not go crazy. Not a dream weekend. Just having a good time at the comedy club with a comedian. But yeah, just hanging.

But anyway, there you go. Check that out. If you enjoyed this show, give us five stars. Whatever app you're listening on. Hook us up. Help your boys out. Five stars really does help. Say something. Tell us your favorite sandwich because we discussed sandwiches and now I want a sandwich. So talk about that. Head over to

well, do social media also. Follow us on social media. We are at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, at Small Town Murder on Instagram. You can absolutely go to our website, shutupandgivememurder.com where you can get not only tickets

to this weekend, April 8th and 9th in Pittsburgh and Columbus, respectively. What else can you get? You can also get tickets, well, for the rest of the year, obviously. But you can also get, more pressingly, tickets to the virtual live show, May the 5th, here, coming up. We're very

excited for that. It'll be available for 72 hours afterwards. A lot of fun. We can't wait. As you know, if you got the last show, we don't let you down. We wouldn't be doing it if we can't wait as you know if you went got the last show we don't let you down no we're not we wouldn't be doing it if we didn't have something to do so a damn good time and it's a good show we're gonna throw down hope to see we get a lot of our overseas people and get those and that's just so much fun to be able to hear from those people yeah yeah we wish we could go

to australia and the uk and wherever the fuck else. Anywhere. I don't care. We'll make it eventually. South America, Africa. We'll go everywhere. Yeah. I don't care. If we could go, we'd go. But we can't really. We don't have as many listeners in, say, Germany as we do in Detroit. So it's a little different.

A little bit different. But check that out and get your tickets there. Shut up and give me murder.com. All your merchandise there as well. Patreon is cooking this week. Let me tell you something. It has happened. We have some really crazy stuff for you.

$5 or above, you get access to everything we have to offer. Small town murders bonus, crime and sports bonus, the whole back catalog, all the bonuses. You're going to find a lot of stuff that interests you in there. And this week, the two episodes you're going to get for crime and sports, first of all, you are going to get the greatest April Fool's hoax that I can know. Definitely in sports history. Right. Sports Illustrated magazine had the writer George Plimpton write a story for a hoax.

And the story turned out to be a man found in the mountains of Tibet that throws 168 miles an hour while wearing one shoe. And the Mets have signed him. And everybody went crazy. And wait till you see his French horn. Oh, and he plays the French horn. It's fucking hilarious. We'll describe how silly of a thing that was. And it actually worked.

And then from there, for Small Town Murders episode, we are going to talk about one of the worst people ever, Diane Downs. What a natural pivot. Oh, God. It is. Very a natural pivot. Oh, God. It is. Very. She shot her kids, man. Shot her kids, pretended like somebody else did it, and never showed concern. Just was like, well, I don't know why you think I did it.

Like, that's ridiculous. I'm telling you. Why would I do that? She's on all these shows, lying through her teeth teeth even when presented with irrefutable evidence for 20 years she's still it's been 40 years now she still won't admit that she did it she's terrible it's really funny stuff though the way we talk about her interviews check it out right now patreon.com slash crime and sports you want to just uh make a donation and get your shout out you can do that at paypal use our email address, crimeandsports at gmail.com.

Right. That said, God damn it, Jimmy. Humble me. You know what? Do the whole. You're going to do the whole entire shout outs in Bud the Parrot voice. I need to hear it right now. Don't fucking shoot.

And thank you for blah, blah, blah. Do that. Hit me with them, Jimmy. This week's executive producers are Raptor One. Happy birthday from Raptor Two. Mark Wimmer. David Cook. Chris Brown.

Happy 40th birthday. Not the girl beater. David Barnhart. Actually, it's Chris Brown with a K. I think that's a lady. David Barnhart. John Codling. Love you, bud.

Molly Fletcher. Happy birthday. Jordan Bennett. Amanda Fletcher, happy birthday. Jordan Bennett, Amanda Elledge, Thomas Connelly. Yeah, Connelly. Other producers, executive producers are our favorite. You guys are fucking amazing. Truly, thank you for everything you do. Other producers this week are Haley Hoffman.

She's now Haley Kroll. Congratulations on your marriage, I imagine. Or just your... Decide to change your name. You start. Get that shitty family away from you. She's in the program, possibly. That's all. Justine McNeil in honor of good dads everywhere.

She misses her dad. It was an anniversary of him passing away. Shitta Perlman, happy birthday. 91st birthday. My goodness. I don't think that person exists. No, I doubt it. But still, we'll take it. Poveilus Basavius, his wife Deborah Francis Phipps.

Was it his wife? It was in memory of Deborah. I don't know if it was his wife or his mom. I'm an asshole. I think it was his wife. Come on, Jimmy. God damn it. Peyton Me his mom. I'm an asshole. I think it was his wife. Come on, Jimmy. God damn it. Peyton Meadows also.

Cody Leversey? Yes, it's Leversey. The kid from fucking Michigan. Can't wait to see you, bud. Centeno Kennels in Canada. Mama Dick's enormous. Are you proud of yourself? Corporal Carl Kirshner Hoare.

Shlomo Gleckstein. Pamela Solig. Kelly Ann Collin. Happy anniversary. They're engaged for eight years. Maybe get on top of getting married. Jesus Christ. Troy Moriarty, Janice Hill, Frank the South African bird washer, Alicia, Alicia Pillmore,

moving to another state. Hang in there, Alicia. This life isn't easy. John Justo, happy birthday. Raya, the sky cat, sky rat, calling champion, Bradenburg. That's who it is. Evan Adkins, Adkins, yes. Pigeon caller?

Sky rat caller. Pigeon. Yeah, I think that's what those are. Or bats. I don't know. No, New York is sky rats, a pigeon. That's what you guys got? Pigeon, it's a rat with wings.

All right. Joshua Brandyberry and his brother Jake's what you guys got it's a rat with wings all right joshua brandyberry uh and his brother jake uh see you guys soon uh braden braden hovelman jay young bethany with no last name tiana green tyler ham david helmsley hemsley uh angel angel taco salas uh peyton with no last name lorraine genko kyle kirsch yep uh nicole hoopel philip phil with no last name. Lorraine Genko. Kyle Kirsch. Yep. Nicole Hoople. Phil with no last name. Phil! Phil!

Zayu! Doing all this good, man. Garrett with no last name. Pedro Ruiz. Reagan Hollier. Eli Cade. Aiden Wolfe. Christopher Anthes.

Rebecca Seeger. What a sweet niche. What a sweet niche. I don What a sweet-nish. I don't know what that's supposed to say. Patrick Cunningham, Matt DeYoung, Tyler W.S., Raven Ori, Cassidy Velo, Brandon McCarty, Christopher Phelan, Thomas Atkinson, Steven with no last name, Patrick Drain, Tina Ward, Ginko with no last name, Lonely Factory, Dustin Miller, Angela Pruitt, Jacob T., Whisper Means, Sherry Seifert, Nick Cowpert, Jessica Jones, Jessica Duss, KitKatB83,

Brian Ribby, this is tough this week, Maricela Padgett, Karsten Dews, Karsten Don'ts, Maricela Padgett, Karsten Dews, Karsten Don'ts, Benjamin Hall, Tyler Skaggs, De'Aja Johnson, Kelsey Spanhauer, Sarah Ertz, Daniel Gade, Andrew Reid, Donna Mildrum, Christina Kolka, Billy Lee Walker, Brittany Ireland, Sue Randall, Anita Schneider-DeVries, Lindsay Weiss, Chancellor Bailey, Stephen Wolfgang, Jake Klaber, Hillary Wolfe, Mary Jo Bullock, Kaylee Carlton, Lindsay Smith, Alex Baldwin, Lieutenant Dan Zlegs, Don Moritz, Patrick Mosley, Emily Harris, Candy Stacey, Zachary Ogle, Megan Zabatini, Nick Tracewell, Fro Zastro, Jasmine Thomas, Patty Tamble, IndieGal1218, Kristen Spires, Michaela, nope, that's just Kayla, Bospaspathouse, Bofasuth, Megan with no last name, Daryl Roskam, Disco with no last name, Elizabeth with no last name, Justin Lawrence, Hamp with no last name, John Keith, Ben Kastelski, Sky, Cody Wigan, Wiganant, Allison Melcher, Brandy Cavane, Don McManus, Damian Wilkinson, Christopher Garza, Lee Menzi, Don Moritz, Cassidy Claridge, John Tyus, Tina with no last name, Jessica Greer, Jacob Keene, M. Richard, Hunter Bibb, Jesus Christ, Tony Cuffee, Sutherland, Danny Holmstoter, Jen Parker, Veda Elizabeth, Barbara Averill, Leslie Palmer, Dylan Bowler, Michael Donnelly, C.J. Dellis, Julie Williamson, Lauren Ford, Rebecca Kane, Arexie Welker, Tracy Thomas, Grace Morris, Shannon Morey, Monroe, Steve Howard, Jared Mead, Tracy Frodequire, Anna Marie Kopskaklondy. Kopskaklondy? Yeah, that's the one. Totally correct. Kyle West, Brian Buntane, Aaron Hegelund, Terry Hahn, Amber V. Knight, Mike Johnson, Terry Peterson, Joseph McMuglegan, Madison DeBoer, Ghostwriter No More, Jason V. Roman, Madeline with no last name, Jason Winters, Eric Molnar, Smith with no first name, Ronnie A. Cox, Annalena Dressler.

Oh, she's fantastic. She's been around for a long time. Pat Hogan, Christina Roizum, Leslie Scheuler, Melanie Twitty, Conway's daughter, Hannah Zito. That's Chuck's daughter. Or Barry's, either one. There you go. Ashley Smith, Lisa Gordeau, Jay Bison, Kelly Knopp, Andrea Kosmak, Cedar Wilkins, Danny Markham, James LaBouffe, Tyler DeRouche, Kevin Sullivan, Erica Sacco, Chris Arsenault, Benjamin with no last name, Richard Powells, Jessica Craig, Dallas Perkins, Oregon Trail Besties, Nick Heumann, Harley Harrington, Blake Calloway, Melanie Black, Jacqueline Eman, Ben White, Tom Houle, Amanda Rosario, Jack Spirit, Kevin Gross, Garrett Williams, Pi Jacobs, Antonio Rico, Dougie Fresh, Jenny LaJoya, Samuel Hopwood. Jesse. Nope, that's Lewis. Lewis Bates. Jessica Marie Kelly.

Alexandra Conrad. Greg Nimi. 90. Maureen A. Burt. What is this? Joseph Bartolotta. Zachary with no last name. Jessica L. Well.

Cassandra Nicole. Justin Hanson. Christine Red CCC. Equiano Ultra. Liz Upton, Atifa, and all of our patrons. You guys, you're unbelievable. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. Thank you.

Thank you so much. It's the best thing you do. For what you do for us. Jimmy's parrot voice was not up to par today, but that's okay. We're going to give him a break on that. Thank you all so much, though. Thank you for what you do. And we're looking forward to seeing you at live shows this weekend. A lot of fun there.

And all throughout the country. Can't wait to keep coming back. Oh, boy. Also, we didn't mention it, but check out on Friday, new episode of our short series coming up here. It's hilarious. Incredibly insane episode. So please check that out extra stuff for you

extra stuff can't wait that oh find us on social media just go to the website we're there god damn it look us up google us whatever the hell it is why do you guys do that now why don't you get out your personal stuff because it's not about us that's why just follow the show you'll find us if you like us that's all we there. We appreciate you giving a shit. We're all connected. It's fine. You'll find us if you want us. Yeah.

I'd rather you follow the show than me. That's all. I don't care. Show matters more. See you there. We're doing this shit. See you there. As a matter of fact, until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.

Bye. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.