Small Town Murder - #271 - The Devil Whispers In My Ear - North Adams, Massachusetts

Episode Date: April 14, 2022

This week, in North Adams, Massachusetts, the relationship of a couple deteriorates, after one of the parties decides that they would rather be with someone else. The problem is, the other person isn't quite ready to give up on the relationship. This is a a common problem, but, in this case, it ends in a very uncommon way. That may be because the murderer may just believe the house is possessed, and that the devil speaks to them, softly. The results are bloody, horrifying, and deadly! Once the courts get involved, it turns a whole new level of weird!Along the way, we find out that this town produced at least 2 jerks, that when a relationship is over, you get your air mattress & move on, and the devil will never be your codefendant!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in North Adams, Massachusetts, tension builds and the situation escalates between two people until one day when police and neighbors walk into an absolute bloodbath. Welcome to

Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us. And Jimmy, that is the appropriate amount of enthusiasm for this show. I appreciate it. Good shit.

There we go. Taking it to win it, James. Let's go. Absolutely. I love it. Thank you for joining us this week. We, of course, have an absolutely insane story, as usual, obviously. Hope you enjoyed all the last few episodes.

We've had a real crazy run for, I don't know, the last five years or so. We're really doing it. We're doing it. So thank you for your reviews, first of all. Whatever platform you're listening on, reviews help. So thank you for those, first of all. Thank you for going to shutupandgivememurder.com. Right.

Where you can get all first of all your merchandise and all of your cool t-shirts which we put new ones up all the time and your tickets to live shows yeah my goodness get your tickets to live shows coming up next we have where the hell are we jimmy we're gonna be in detroit yeah there but we're also before that we're gonna be at your house right here doing a virtual live show. May 5th, we are doing a virtual live show. It'll be available for 72 hours that whole weekend, obviously. We're going to have a party that night.

Yes. It's going to be a good time with a crazy story. Have tacos and tequila with us on Cinco de Mayo. There you go. Have fun. We'll definitely have that, I'm sure. I can't wait. I know you'll have tequila.

Fuck yeah. It's going to be a long night, everybody. gonna be good shit so do that virtual live show get your guacamole twice oh baby you will too with tequila it's worse with tequila check that out shut up and give me murder.com also uh patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all the extra stuff. And boy, do we have some wild ones this week. Can't wait. They don't really need that much explanation, we'll say. First of all, $5 or more, you get access to everything. Crime and sports bonus episodes, small-town murder bonus, whole back catalog.

A lot of stuff on there. For crime and sports, you will have... We're going to talk about when Tiger Woods got attacked by his wife with a golf club. Oh, fantastic. And why that was and what he was doing to cause that and uh that is what a story that is it's good it's like a tooth it's like wow i didn't know the roots went that deep it's wild so that's gonna be a lot of fun on face value you go why would somebody react like that yeah and then you go oh i get it oh and then for town murder, doesn't need that much explanation. The prisoner dating game is back, everybody.

Hell yeah. It's been six months, so it's time for a prisoner dating game. This is the all felon prisoner dating game. I'm going to give Jimmy four young men, four young ladies. He's going to choose one of each based on only their descriptions and them selling themselves. And then he's going to find out what they did to end up where they are. Oh, it's going to be amazing. They're always our best episodes.

We started doing that years ago. Years ago. Before Love After Lockup. Oh, yeah. And somehow that show popped up and it's just, it's our jam. That's us, man. It fits right in perfectly like a key into a lock. Prisoner Dating Game.

That is patreon.com slash crime in sports. Sign up now. And also, you'll get a shout out at the end of the show where your name will be butchered horribly. So not on purpose, though. Quick disclaimer. This is a comedy show. We're comedians. Story's completely real.

We're not making up anything for comedic value, although sometimes it sounds like we are. We promise we're not. Swear to God, sometimes things are crazy, and we have to make fun of them. That's it. There's nothing funny about actual murder. There's nothing funny about a dismemberment. None of that's funny. That's why we don't usually make any jokes around that, because it's not really funny.

There's funny things around all of that, of a murderer saying, I I think this is a good idea I can get away with this no you can't rather than any other option so things like that are hilarious but what we don't do we go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the victims families why James because we're assholes but we're not scumbags

and that's how that works that sounds good to you I think it's going to be a crazy time if you think true crime and comedy should never ever ever ever go together i don't know maybe we don't belong together but maybe we do we should talk this over over some appetizers at chili's and we'll decide either way let's get into it let's clear the lungs jimmy all right shout it All right. Shout it out. Let's shout, Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this. All right.

Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah. All right, let's do it. We are going all the way to Massachusetts. Yeah. It has been a long time since we've been in Massachusetts. It's been, we've taken our big break from Massachusetts for some reason here. We're going to North Adams, Massachusetts,

which is northwestern, up in the upper northwestern corner. Oh, over there. Yeah, over. It's in the Berkshires. There's dispensaries there in Pittsfield. I've been in this area before. Anywhere where there's weed dispensaries, I've frequented. I'm familiar. Let's just say that. I think I've only been in that area with you. I think so, too, for that purpose. We were more south, though.

You were closer to me. This is like two hours from me. I've been to Vermont, but I went the other way to get there. Yeah, from New Hampshire. This is two hours and 45 minutes from Boston. It's about two hours and 40 minutes to Needham,achusetts which was our last massachusetts episode episode 198 what this is too this is 271 so that's a long time ago that was a young ted ted bundy on the rise was that one this guy really trying to that was a crazy episode when was that what year it was

19 right it was 73 weeks ago. Something to want. There you go. A year and a half ago. Almost exactly a year and a half ago. This is in Berkshire County. It is area code 413. And there's not really a motto here, but they have two nicknames, which is Slab City.

Yuck. Which you can so easily call Slob city that it's not worth it the sign someone could really emphasize the outside and then you're slob city or the tunnel city oh which sounds like you're a city in a tunnel or people are tunneling under you to get around you that's where you go to get that butthole or yeah it's gonna be this place is filthy one of the two history which would lend to slob city that's and then you turn into slob city after that because everybody's well it's just too much decadence that's the thing everyone's like it turns into rome at that point you're just too satisfied with yourself overflow it and it turns into sloth city and bad stuff. So history of this town. This was settled, you know, European-wise here and everything, 1745.

Wow. So it's an old town during King George's War, which is, I know you're a veteran. I never had one. I know you're a veteran of that war. You got to be a bronze star in that war. It was very heroic, I've got to say. Still talked about in this area to this day. During the war, Canadian and Native American forces led a siege to Fort Massachusetts.

Now, the fort's chimney there, there's a stone replica constructed in the 20th century, and it is located at the rear of the former price chopper supermarket so their big like look what we have yeah is in the back of an abandoned supermarket of the price chopper which is quote behind the former friendlies so this is this place is bleak as shit this is a defunct strip mall with a Price Chopper supermarket that's the anchor store that's gone out of business where they have a chimney and then a Friendly's, which probably died 15 years ago. This is sad. Very, very sad. The tourism.

You have to go weed through the graffiti marks. You have to go urban exploring. Yeah. Yeah. You have to break in with one of these douches on YouTube walking around. I actually like those. Bring your crowbar to get through the boarded up price chopper. So you can go, there it is.

That's history, kids. That's a chimney. It's a replica, you guys. Ignore the squatter shitting in the corner. Ignore him. Kids, ignore him. We all have boundaries. Replica, James.

We'll look at the chimney that they made in 1930. About something that happened 200 years before. Let's do that. That is unfucking real. Oh, Christ. A better thing to say is there's nothing to do. Not a lot going on here. So eventually they had wholesale shoe manufacturers in the 1800s were here. They had a brickyard, a sawmill, cabinet makers, hat manufacturers. A lot of hats going on.

This area, too, when you drive through it, like these towns on the way to these places with weed, you see a lot of like these old dead brick industrial buildings where it's like oh this used to be like an industrial town it's almost like it's like driving through tiny detroit yeah some of these towns yeah there used to be a lot of shit being made now there's nothing in these places at all machine shops for the construction of mill machines so they had machines that made machines. Unbelievable. That's wild here. They had marble works, wagon and sleigh makers, and iron works,

which provided the pig iron for the armor plates for the Monitor, the Civil War battleship. Is that right? I don't know if anybody's a real big Civil War buff, but they had the Monitor. The Confederates put their own uh their own ship in the water and it dominated everything on the river for you know a whole day and then the monitor for a day and then the monitor came up and they had this big battle and the monitor fucking

the monitor ended up winning and yeah then it ended up being retired it was like okay thing was an iron box with smoke coming out of it and guys trying to breathe it was a you know terrible but for back then it wins it had a turret on top for the guns rather than having 20 guns everywhere there i this is this was the first time somebody had the idea of put one on top that rotates yeah and metal played it and it worked a lot and you can't win yeah it was a much better idea so anyway not that anyway, not that anybody gives a shit, but there's that. There's your Sahara Desert fart fact of the week, everybody. So from the post-war here to the 1980s, post-World War II to the 80s, they had Sprague here,

which produced electrical components for the electronics stuff and TVs and VCRs and shit. But competition abroad led to 1985. They closed operations and they said this closure basically ruined the whole local. Thanks a lot, China. This was it. Yeah, this is cheap electronics. This was a Korea where they make a lot of electronics. There's Taiwan.

Other countries make them whatever. So anyway, this fucked everything up essentially. And everything population declined a lot since the 80s. One famous person from here. Oh. And that is Frank Vincent, who is, you know him as Billy Batson. Goodfellas. He's the guy in the trunk that Joe Pesci stabs.

He's in Raging Bull or, you know, he's in fucking Casino where they kill Joe Pesci's and the Sopranos. He's, you know, he's in raging bull or you know he's in fucking casino where they kill joe pesci's and the sopranos he's you know he's in everything uh from what i understand because i've known actors that have worked with him huge asshole gigantic gaping fucking pulsating asshole like saying he deserved being in that trunk like absolutely the one of the biggest assholes in show business he's known as. For a guy that's completely typecast and is never getting anything other than Italian gangster role, maybe you should settle down, sir. But all of his roles, that's like kind of him. That's the thing.

He's just kind of a dick. Yeah. He's being a dick. You're like, yeah, that's Frank Vincent. I'm just kind of a dick. Go get your shine box. So, yeah, go get your shine box. They didn't come and tell you I don't shine shoes no more all right five stars let's not do that whole scene because i'll fucking do it you disrespected him a little bit okay that's enough

too ah rossi nothing but a whole lot superintendent okay i'm not gonna do it i just watched that the other night i know again it's in my brain, man. I can play it backwards. It might be my favorite movie now. Tombstone, it defined me for a long time. I love that movie. It's fun, but for cinema, Goodfellas is better. Goodfellas is incredible. It's a fine movie.

It's incredible. So reviews here, we have five stars. This is perfect. It's the only one that here. We have five stars. This is perfect. It's the only one that was like a perfect score. I have been back and forth visiting a second home for nearly the last eight plus years. Oh, you bragging blowhard motherfucker. Right away. That's your five star rating now.

Doesn't mean a lot. Like, I love it because it's where my second home is and my weekend. OK. I love it because I have. I love home is and my weekend. I love it because I love everything. I have a shitload of money. Yeah. In the last three, we saw such positive changes engaging current and long-time residents along with new people, activities, and programming. is a like a museum there gets much credit and rightly so and so does uh mcla the people of the community and those innovative positive people shepherding the newest chapter my kids have enjoyed coming along and now take their friends to visit hike eat and listen to music and share art

thank you north adams this you're yeah these are pretentious people are like these trees are beautiful motherfuckers ah it's so good so good to get out of williamsburg yeah that's what it is it's so good to get out of williamsburg for the day ah look at the leaves changing isn't it beautiful i was so tired of seeing six foot tall romanian models everywhere this is much so three stars uh great town growing up but in but over the years crime rates have gone up this is a small town in western massachusetts So three stars. Great town growing up. But over the years, crime rates have gone up. This is a small town in western Massachusetts where everyone really does know everyone.

And no is spelled N-O-W. So that tells you. Now everyone. Now everyone. Everyone really does know everyone. People are very nosy here and word spreads around fast. Oh, so it's a nightmare. Okay.

Makes sense. Two stars. There are a lot of criminals coming into the area with drugs and a lot of people are overdosing onto them. Uh-oh. Okay. But they're coming into the area with, I think people are, no one goes to a market unless there's a demand. That's the thing.

Right. You know, we don't, we do live shows. We don't go places where people don't listen to us good point i don't go to portugal a lot because they wouldn't understand us and uh we wouldn't fly we probably wouldn't sell many tickets whereas we go to you know detroit and we're fucking sold out so there you go they come by uh one star here it has really gone down here downhill in the last decade while it may look cultured with mass mocha and techs with mini parks that are free to charge uh free to charge

your technology the reality is there's not really much to do the drug trade and crime rate has been slowly rising and the police do as little as possible it was a great little town in the early 2000s but not anymore i am hoping to sell and move somewhere warmer and safer. Alright, so... Sounds like a coffee shop. It really is delicious. Massachusetts coffee.

Their espresso, I'm telling you, it puts a bounce in your step. Show me your latte. Show me your lattes. People of this town, 12,737, which is down sharply since the 80s there. Median age is 43.1, so it's a little bit higher than normal. It's lower marriage rate than normal, higher single people with children than normal, 23%. So race of this town, white is that right so pretty well it's northwestern

massachusetts if you've ever been to northwestern massachusetts it's one thing it is it's white it's very very white it's exceedingly white it's like utah out there except they're irish instead of mormon the only difference they're loud utahns yeah they're utahns with booze they're what you get if you mix uh if you mixed a Mormon and someone from Wisconsin together. You'd get somebody. You'd get like an Irish guy from Northwestern. So there's 1.6% black, 0.6% Asian, 3.7% Hispanic. So it's pretty white.

It's Northwestern Massachusetts. What do you want? Religion in this town, it's a pretty white it's northwestern Massachusetts what do you want religion in this town it's just about normal 50-50 and obviously you're going to have the dominant force here be 38% of the people here are Catholic as we know Catholics are the Baptists of the north they're everywhere

2.7% or 2.1% Jewish what? oh hey i don't know the words hey that's that's been a while yeah down south it's it's been a while down south and out west and shit so uh in berkshire county the uh last election here it's a small county, too, here. So not a whole lot of people here.

But, you know, whatever, for what it's worth. In Berkshire County, it's 72% voted Democrat last election, 25% Republican, 2.3% Independent. Okay. So they probably voted for, like, an alien or something. Because this is one of those places where half the people here claim to be be like, you know, abducted at some point or some shit. It's one of those weird towns. Unemployment rate is like 9% here, which is three times the national average. That's bomb.

Nine percent. Nine percent, which is super high. It's all these just shuttered brick buildings. It's all it's there. They've negative recent job growth. What? Yeah. Not good. Not going well here. Median household income. Thirty eight thousand seven seventy four. buildings it's all it's there um they've negative recent job growth what yeah not good not going

well here median household income 38 774 which that doesn't sound like massachusetts at all that's western massachusetts a different ball game out there man uh 50 it's about 20 000 less than the national average 46 of the people here make 30 000 or less what the fuck so yeah this is tough cost of living here uh is 82 out of 100 being regular housing though 57.5 pretty low especially for massachusetts median home cost 177 800 bucks that's incredible very low but it's not there's nothing here that's the problem so what are you gonna do do? Well, you know what? If you're going to move here, we have for you, everybody, the North Adams, Massachusetts Real Estate Report. The average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $1,124 a month, which is pretty close to the average.

It seems steep, though. Yeah, if the houses are cheap. Your average of this house here, I found five bedroom, two bath, 2,623 square feet. That's a house. So, yeah, you got a few kids. That's a place to go. Built in 1875. Awesome.

Filthy. Looks like it hasn't been cleaned since 1877 looks like they gave up about 1877 they were like you know somewhere in the grant administration they just abandoned ship i don't know what happened to 600 square feet of filth yeah it's tons of junk it looks like everybody's left all of their shit there and stored it there since 1875, and no one's thrown anything away. It's like a potential hoarder situation if we let it go any longer. That's $119,000, though, for that. Unbelievable.

I mean, that's all cleanable and workable. The structure looks good. Yeah, might take your chances. That's what I mean. Here's one. Seven bedroom, four bath. What? 3,225 square foot.

Oh, my God. Big house. Built in 1900. Awesome. Falling apart. Falling apart. Looks like it's falling apart. 122 years of you got to fix it.

Things are sliding away. It's not. It looks. Outside looks worse. The inside looks together. It's not. It looks outside looks worse. The inside looks together. It's not great, but it's like livable. Whereas the outside looks like, should I stand here? Is this going to fall a little bit?

But it's one hundred seventy nine thousand bucks. What? So that you can turn that into a grand estate. You know, if you've got three, four grand, you can really make that place a magical kingdom. It's not too bad here. And then here's one six bedroom, three bath, 4,742 square feet built in 1900. It's pretty goddamn nice. It's an old Victorian house, big, fancy staircase and a big ass yard.

It's fucking nice. Four hundred fifty thousand bucks for that oh my god which is still expensive but compared to like that's that's like a three bedroom two bath 1200 square foot house in a neighborhood where you hear gunshots in phoenix right now and the and you hear your neighbor next door fucking so and then they're gunshots from them too and the house isn't touching yours you still hear them fuck. You still hear it, yeah. Not the moans.

You hear it go in. Well, it's just particle board to particle board. Yeah, you hear the slapping and gushing. You hear it all. It's not good. Things to do here. Oh, Jesus. There's a few, and they're all pretty bad.

Let's see. The Eagle Street Beach Party. Okay. We don't need an ocean to have a beach well yeah you do or at least a lake something you gotta have something that's not how that works not what they do they bring in more than 250 000 pounds of sand and spread it uh on the entire length of eagle street curb to curb awesome and then the it's a family friendly beach party listen to this the family friendly beach party runs from 3 30 to 6 30 and the adult oriented fiesta that sounds like people are gonna

be fucking in the street that i get it it's just booze complete with margaritas served on the beach i get it it's booze but the adult oriented fiesta that tells me dicks are out that tells me that people are gonna have sand in their vaginas afterwards because someone's going to be you're going to see tits tonight for sure the uh winter fest which is a chow that has a chowder cook-off okay ice sculpting and uh a chowder competition so there's that so you can and uh yeah we can sit around a roasted marshmallows at a campfire oh boy that sounds like fun and then finally north adams motorama acres of everything motorized yes there you go show motor bar stool motorama was created to give all lovers of motorized vehicles from classic cars tuner cars fire trucks cars, snowmobiles, go-karts,

et cetera, a place to come together and show off their own goods. I want this. That sounds like an interesting place to go walk around. Then they have a fall foliage festival, which is- Yeah, that's very popular. It's literally a walk where trees are, and you look at them, which everyone in town lives there and sees these trees on a daily basis. It's fascinating man people live in the woods out out there and they still leave there to go see other woods this is their woods it's the people who live there walking around their own town that they live in you got trees i see it that's why i saw when i flew in it's fine you know what that tells me

there's nothing to do in this town nothing around looking at bark that's it oh there's the tree yeah i know it's in my yard and i see it every day but it's pretty right let's do a festival about it oh my god crime rate in this town yeah what we're interested in, obviously, is it's a problem, man. For a small town like this, it's an issue. I'm looking at it like, wow. 10% of people have no jobs. Yeah, that'll cause a problem. Property crime is about, it's like 20%, 25% high.

Oh, no. It's high, but more concerning than that. I mean, a lot of times in a small town you'll have property crime. It's just drug shit, too. Lose your iPod, lose a camera, whatever. Well, I mean, drug crimes are also put into that clump. They're not put into violent crimes, murder, rape, robbery, and assault, the Mount Rushmore of crimes. That's very specific.

That's more than twice the national average. It's really a problem more that's like almost two and a half times and it's crazy murder rape robbery assault that's a lot and like you know armed robbery and anything that goes under those umbrellas that's a lot you are twice as likely for that to happen to you here more than twice as likely to happen than you are on the average American street, whatever that is. So that's crazy shit. Wild. That said, unsurprisingly, we're going to talk about a murder that happened here.

Yeah. At this point, it's not surprising. This is the place. This is the place. But when it happened, this actually was surprising because we have to go back to 1979 oh to uh talk about it started a trend huh in yeah in 79 this place was doing very well the plant was open yeah people were working you know the the friendlies was open the price shopper was cranking people were staring fucking replica fireplace yeah people were staring at the

chimney on Sunday mornings. They're like, I'm going to go, I got to go grocery shop, and I'm going to look at the chimney for a while. I'll be back. And then they take off. Sorry I'm late, baby. I know it's noon now, and breakfast is no longer an option, but I had to see the chimney in aisle 13. I know I should have got the frozen stuff after I stared at the chimney, and now it's all melted, and I came home with a frozen pizza that's liquid. I get it, but it doesn't matter.

The chimney is majestic. It's mesmerizing. It's fucking mesmerizing. I'm staring at the thing and I'm like, look at this thing. It's a chimney. It's like the tree in Times Square. I got to look. It's just like the one they had 300 years ago.

It's just like the one they had back then, but it's not because they just built it. But it's still, it looks like it, and it's at the Price Shoppers. It's a 30 rock, isn't it? I don't know where the fucking tree is. I stopped, yeah, it is. Yeah, Rockefeller Center. There you go. I stopped at Friendly's for a cone afterwards, too.

I'm sorry. They were shutting down. I had to get one before they stopped. It's a swirl. So we go to 79, and we need to talk about, in 1979, we'll start with a guy named George Albert Schnapps. Yeah. Schnapps. Is it that guy?

S-C-H-N-O-P-P-S. Oh, it's not that guy. Not that guy, but his name is Schnapps, which is pretty goddamn funny. One letter off of being filthy fucking rich is what he is. Yeah, not quite, not quite. I think he's just a German guy. That's all. At this point.

Close to rich. Instead, just pretty German, I think. Just a German guy. Just a German guy named George. Just George the German. That's all.

Speaking of Germany, we'll talk about it. He's been to Germany. Has he? He wasn't born there. He's actually born in the US. Born., born on February 21st, 1922. Yeah. So, yeah, he's 57 years old in 1979.

He, his parents, Jacob and Clara Schnapps, which they probably didn't get nearly as much guff for their name back in 1910. He grew up in North Adams, went to high school in North Adams. He's one of six kids, five boys and one girl. He's one of the younger brothers, by the way. And I found some shenanigans that he and his brothers got into here

in the newspaper from 1938. Oh. Here we go. May 27th, 1938. All right. You know how this is written. His brother had to plead guilty here, apparently. Yeah. State Trooper Oliver B. Nichols of Shelbourne Falls Barracks said the two men had gone to the Olacene factory last night and filled six burlap bags with about 150 pounds of copper and brass fittings taken from the factory yard before wow before they were discovered by the night superintendent the latter called uh latter called the state police but when trooper nickels arrived schaefer and a younger brother of schnapps had vanished

the elder brother of schnapps elder schnapps was found in the vicinity and brought to north adams where he was arrested so that's George, by the way. He was with his older brothers stealing fucking fittings from a factory. That's very meth-y for 1938. Now, 1938 is still the Depression, though. That's the other thing.

Times were tough, maybe. We don't know what was going on. He joined up and he was in World War II, as a matter of fact. No kidding. Absolutely absolutely he's a world war ii vet he served with the 37 uh 3 3701 uh 3701 first i don't know how the fuck you'd say that 3701st yeah i guess you'd have to say it out base unit of the air force so he's in uh world war ii good for him it's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast morbid we're your hosts i'm alina urquhart and i'm ash kelly and our show is part true crime part spooky and part comedy the stories we cover are well

researched he claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo

like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

He gets married during the war here. He marries a woman named Claire in August of 1943. Unfortunately, though, she dies on June 23rd, 1965. Oh, no. Yeah, she died of MS, actually. She had multiple sclerosis. Damn it. Back then, there was not a lot of treatments for it.

It's still rough now. Today, there's not a lot. Yeah, it's brutal. It's rough. It's bad. But back then, it was like, oh, shit, you're just fucked. There wasn't really a whole lot they could do for it. So after World War II, George was employed by the United Taxi Service for more than 20 years.

So he worked there from 1945 to like 1965 when his wife died. Oh, God. When his wife died, he had to kind of change his whole thing up it was to change his life i don't know what's we'll find out george has a very emotional side to him to put it lightly um emotional would be the wife did it the wife what no no i mean the tragedy of it's on this show that's got to be something bad. Did what? Killed who?

I'm like, no one's died yet. What are you talking about? I really was taken aback. Do you think she created the emotions in him? Yeah, I think. No, no, no. I don't know. Possibly, but it definitely exacerbated whatever's going on with him because we'll find out later.

He's very emotional. But when his wife dies, and this is understandable. I mean, they've been married since he was 21, and they have a daughter together as well named Jill. So it's sad. Anyway, so he stops driving a cab after that. And everybody said he cared for her throughout her life while she was sick. He was a nice guy and a good caretaker and all that kind of shit.

And it was a very good relationship, everybody said, too. Very kind, loving relationship. And she died naturally, which is rare. We very rarely have like a natural, just a natural birth of a nice person on this show. Usually if it's a nice person, we're like, oh, no, they're going to end up with like a meat cleaver right in their forehead you know it you know this person's gonna be in eight pieces and garbage bags by the time we get to an hour 40 you just know what's happening i'm glad he didn't uh hurt the wife and and took care of her very well that's beautiful yeah oh yeah no he No, he did a lot here. So in 1965, now think about it too.

In 1965, he is like 43 years old. Yeah. His wife died. He's got a daughter, and he's trying to navigate the world basically, and he gets a new job. Him and his wife, he gets a new job here where he meets another woman he meets a woman named marilyn harris who is 20 oh so wife died um now you're 43 and you meet a 20 year old so i don't know if he's trying to cheer like you know feel better about himself or like rewind the clock to before the other marriage so now you can like start over

again i don't know what is i don't know what the psychology is in that i really don't or maybe it's on her and that she courted him because there are young girls that fucking love a silver fox absolutely no that's that's true i don't know if he's a silver fox at 43 that's a little it might be a little uh i don't know the bottom bottom end of silver fox i think at that age i think you gotta be you made a great early we don't gotta hit 50 before you can be a silver fox right i don't know yeah i think so i think at 20 anybody over 36 is fucking 50 that's true that's true anybody of Anybody over 30 is 50 at that point. When you're 20. 20 years old? Fuck, Jesus. You all right? You going to die tomorrow? Fuck.

I'd ask you if you wanted to shoot some hoops, but your hip probably hurts, I would assume, by now. And if not, it will tomorrow, and I don't want to put you through that. I think that's elder abuse. I think I can go to jail for that. Probably is. I assume it is. probably is what are you 33 yeah that's that's i can't do that can't hurt somebody your age i'm sorry can't do that to you i should probably hold your hand and walk you across the street let me get those groceries for you here hand those over come on let's go that's how they look at you hey back off there's a there's a sweet old lady coming through back off she's 33 give her some time give her some space quit being a dick

she's taking a selfie and has a fucking cup of starbucks in her hand that was seven dollars please be very very careful give her a wide berth at 41 when they have when they offer for the for the people that need a little more time to get on the plane i kind of want to go up okay you're like you know i'd like some more time if i'm being honest here are you okay i'm 41 does that count you walk up and go hi i just i was half paying attention did you say need or want which which did you say is there a card for those people because i don't have one but i really feel like i should probably be with them it's just one i gotta be honest with you i think i'm gonna go ahead and get in that line just saying behind the guy in the wheelchair. Okay. I feel like I qualify. Behind the guy with the oxygen.

Okay. I'll be back. See you in a second. Behind the poor woman with four small children hanging off of her that she's trying to keep in one behind her. Okay. As she drags two car seats that you put in bags for her. Whenever I see that, I always think, is there one that you just go if that one wanders

away i'm not going to worry about it if they return him they return him if not he might end up on a flight to wherever but i did my best we're gonna have a like a reverse kevin mccallister situation here where they just don't care the kid goes somewhere else the parents are still where they are imagine that home alone where she goes kevin and they're like yeah we don't have him she's like i'll be all right he'll be all right i think he took that flight i think he took the eight o'clock to vancouver i don't think it's a big deal he'll be back they'll get him to us it's okay the airlines are yeah they're not gonna want to keep him you'd be a shit flight attendant he's terrible he doesn't even clean his room that's the home alone i want that's the home alone i'd like to him wandering around a strange

city those parents don't care at all no concern they show up back at home he's there and they're just like hey what's up yeah what's going on you made it oh we did too hey good for you so he meets he's 43 meets a 20 year old marilyn harris who is a phone dispatcher at the general cable company plant in uh pownell pownell p-o-w-n-a-l pownell pownell i don't know vermont either way it's across the border in Vermont where they both, and that's where he works too. So, yeah. And so they're, you know, they get to know each other for about, I don't know, three months and then they get married. What? Yeah, they get married.

By the end of 1965, they're married. Yeah. And his wife died on June 23rd, 1965. Wow. So that is pretty fucking interesting. Insanely quick. I'd like to know exactly what date he started because I don't mean to,

I hate, you know how I am, I don't really love a conspiracy theory, but if, okay, if he got a job here first at the cable company, meets a 20-year-old, and then his sickly wife who's his age dies of her disease in 1965 where you know they have the greatest testing and everything

in the world maybe we exhume that and check her out yeah maybe let's see if there's some like because and if she was very sick too and she passed away they might just they go oh she's been sick for so long that's it they're not even gonna do an autopsy she died ms she's had it for years and she's been sick and all that he could have been poisoning we don't know what the hell's going on instead we look at it like good for him he's healing yeah oh look at that or they're like well i mean you know who who could say anything bad about what he's doing he's whatever you can do to try to get through that you know what i mean and he meets this maybe that's comforting to him and she's an angel to take care of him like this. An angel.

He's got a daughter. Oh, is that right? Yeah, he's got a daughter. How old is she? 20? Yeah, yeah. No, she's older. So that's fine, actually.

That's totally fine. But she's the age of his fucking wife or older than his wife? No, I think she's a little bit younger. She's a little bit younger. They didn't have her right away because he was in the war and all that. So I think they didn't have her till later on when he came back and everything so yeah they get married and uh so she becomes marilyn schnapps yeah and uh there you go so they stay married by 1979 they've been married 14 years yep and she's 34 and he's now 57. Wow. Now you're in Silver Fox territory where it's 57.

And 57 and 34 are very, very different. That's a big age gap. But at that point, nobody gives a shit anymore. Oh, no, no, not for society. I mean for interpersonal. Right, right. Oh, for under the roof, it's not happy. That's a big age difference.

It really is. Like, that's 23 years. That's a lot age difference it really is like yeah that's 23 years that's a lot of prime for christ's sake yeah and people who make it work and people are fine and happy that can do that that's great but it's to me it seems like a big age like with both of our significant others it's 10 years right right yeah yeah 10 years for both of us that are younger than us which makes sense because we're extremely immature men. So we're very immature, obviously. We're children. Listen to us. We make dick jokes about murder for two and a half hours a week.

We're extremely immature. Oh, by the way, it's now going to be about three and a half hours a week because tomorrow on Friday, we have a new thing coming out, which is an hour long or 45 minutes to an hour long, shorter small town murder not the stories we do longer in a shorter version new story these are stories that are too they're insane but there's not enough you know backstory or whatever to flesh out a whole episode about it to do a thursday show about it to do a thursday show but they're so insane that it's like oh my god how do we not tell people about this so he he said, okay, this is how we can do it.

The one we're starting out with this week is, or the last week, I'm sorry, because it would be, yeah, this is a second week of it. What's wrong with my brain? What's happening? Are you all right? So it's insane. It's just nuts. Check it out.

Yeah, I am. I'm not okay, Jimmy. Don't, don't, don't, just trust us. Trust us. Listen on Fridays. Things are insane. This world is never going to go back to normal. It's so messed up, man, these Friday shows.

You're going to love it. So, yeah, my brain is not right. I'm ready to get a job at the General Cable Company and marry a 20-year-old at this point because I don't know what's going on with me today. So, by 1979, they're 14 years. They've been married. They have three children of their own by this point. Yes, they do. They have Jane, who's 14, Alan, who's 12 and Tracy, who's four. So yeah, they have a, imagine being 57 and having a four year old. No, absolutely not. Exhausting. 41. I'm already looking for a vasectomy.

I'm doing it. It's over. I'm not having any more children ever. And you're looking at your 10-year-old daughter going, you about ready for college or what? What are we doing? Looking at your watch. You ready to go?

Are you a prodigy or what? Let's doogie house her this situation and get you a medical practice so I can move to Maine. The homes in North Adams are so affordable. Grow up, kid. Grow up. I want out. You lazy bastards. You shiftless bastards.

I'm going to be going to the doctor every three months and tugging into a cup to make sure. Recount them. Make sure this thing worked. I'm trying to get to absolute zero. Is that possible? Can I get there? I don't want even one swimming in there.

I want it to just be liquid. That's it. Well, he had all of these kids after your age now. Think about that. They started at 43 having kids. So 43, 45, 51 is when his kid thing went. So for her, it was obviously 21, 23, and 31 or whatever. No problem.

So Marilyn, she's also from North Adams, lifelong. So they're both North Adams lifers. I'm sure he might have went to school with her parents or something because he's the same age that her parents would be. She went to Drury High School. Good for her. was uh she's a member of the saint john's episcopal church wow and even teaches sunday school there get out yeah so i mean it's also a different time we hear now 43 and 20 and we're like oh that 20 year old's

gonna want to party and go out and do you know do a lot of shit for instagram they're gonna want to do that stuff and this guy's gonna be getting tired soon back back then the society was a little different like people at 20 were like oh yeah i want to start having kids pretty soon this is crazy i gotta get i'm an old maid like yeah that was still that mindset if you were in a small town which is super weird it's hard to get into that mindset so uh they were both they both like i said work at the now they're working at the cornish wire division plant for the same company i don't for the company yeah cornish wire division i don't know what the hell that is cornish game hens and wire huh game hens and wires and guys and mines on deadwood that's all i know of cornish

that's it i haven't heard the anything else at all um uh i said there's there's some corn in it maybe cornish cornish i mean you know is there corn in it uh ish ish we'll say maybe so uh he works there are the problem is like by the 70s they're on different shifts yeah which is difficult uh for a marriage here um his shift is 7 a.m to 3 p.m first shift the day shift she works second shift 3 to 11 oh so they like a while and she's still running that shift they high five each other while they, at the time clock there, they punch in

and high five each other and then cross paths and that's that. She gets home past 11, he's asleep. He's already asleep. He's got to be up at six o'clock in the morning

to do that shit. That's how you make that work. That's fantastic. Yeah, I guess that's, you never see each other ever. Right. And when you do, you make a baby. I left her like a note on her desk. That's fantastic. Yeah, I guess that's, you know, you never see each other ever. And when you do, you make a baby. I left her like a note on her desk. It's fine.

That's pretty romantic. We're going to try for another one tonight. I stuck a post-it on her adding machine. I feel like that's going to really get her wet for later. It's going to be good. Threw a dick on it. That's all it is. It's just a picture of my dick. You know what I mean? But like a cartoon dick with hearts coming out of it instead of cum you know that's a 79

dick pic you don't want like jizz coming out of it that's pretty gross it's you know so you put some hearts coming out it looks you know it's the chicks like it you know they like to see hearts fly out of your cock that's how it works so they're they're doing that so this is hard for the family too too, because she's working second shift. So, you know, he's kind of in charge of the house as far as the kids. And, you know, he gets them home from school and makes dinner and puts them to bed and does all that stuff just because of the shift situation. What are you going to do? So everything's going very well, though.

Everybody says they're a nice couple. They have their kids they go to church together she teaches teaches sunday school they do social things hang out with friends yeah they're not like the couple that everybody's going on jesus they're coming christ they're gonna fight again oh my god i'm gonna have to leave early because i don't want to hear it they're gonna get along and it's beautiful yeah they're not the couple like at the party that's the only two people out in the yard yelling at each other while everybody else is inside. That's not them.

Told you not to talk about that. Yeah, that's good. That's good. So he says he didn't, everything was fine. And then Easter of 1979 comes around. Yeah. I don't know what it is about Easter, if it's an argument over peeps. It's a very controversial peep. Some people love them.

Some people love them. Some people hate them, peeps. So you never know. Maybe it's a marshmallow. I could take them and leave them. Yeah, I don't like so much granulated sugar, but I like the marshmallow. It's a lot of sand. I don't like the sugar.

Yeah, I don't like that on the outside of anything. It's a lot. Crunchy sugar? Yeah. That's too much. It's marshmallow. It's pretty sweet. There's plenty of sugar in this. All marshmallow is is sugar. That's a lot. Crunchy sugar. Yeah. It's too much. It's marshmallow. It's pretty sweet. There's plenty of sugar in this.

It's all marshmallow is is sugar. That's what it is. It's just like, it's goopified sugar that you just put in your mouth and go, ah, ah,

ah. That's why when you roast them, they turn black like that. That's the sugar caramelizing. It's just sugar. Right. It's sugar. It's flammable.

Totally flammable. Even the outside, the powder, that's sugar too. It's just powdered sugar they rolled it in so it wouldn't be sticky when you picked it up. So anyway, they have an apparently terrible argument about peeps and marriage starts to be a little weird. Yellow, no, pink. Yellow, no, pink. No, pink.

Blue. I like that weird blue color that doesn't exist in nature. blue i like that weird blue color that doesn't exist in nature so uh what happens is right before easter they go out to a club to dance together okay so he's 57 he's going out to the club to dance he's really trying to keep that wife happy you can tell she likes to go to the club and i'm not gonna i'll go with go with her. It's fine. So they go. He says that she wouldn't dance with him the entire evening and instead spent the entire evening dancing with a co-worker of hers. Another guy. Oh, some guy.

They went to the Mountain View restaurant in North Adams where it was like dance night on a Saturday night. The Saturday night before Easter. Dropped a saw buck to get him played johnny be good oh they big hunt at the end of the night big hunt with a free beer ticket inside of it it's magical so they dance the whole night she danced the whole night with a guy named donald labombered labombered l-a-b-O-M-B-A-R-D. Labombard. I'm going to call him. Lombard. Lombard?

Isn't it? There's another B in there, though. Oh, Lombombard? Lombombard, yeah. If it was Lombard, that'd be fantastic. It's Lombombard. Yeah, it's Lombombard. Labombabard. That's too much.

It's almost Labomba. If there was an A instead of an O, it would be La Bamba Bard. La Bombard. But it's La Bomba. Okay, whatever. Anyway, he works on the same shift as her at the plant. So George doesn't really know this guy pretty well. Someone close to it says that, quote, he had a reputation as a lover.

Oh. So he was kind of a-'s a slinging cock around the yard and he's got i know this doesn't mean an entire a lot but it definitely says something about somebody's personality and their swagger a little bit because i found a newspaper article about him when he was in the uh the eighth grade from Donald Lombard. From May 11th, 1951, where his school was putting on this big talent show. And there's going to be some specialty numbers, including a ballet, a duet ballet with some people here. And then a solo song. He's going to sing a solo,

Kiss in the Dark by Donald Lombard. So he's got the balls to go up and sing a solo. So I think he's okay with romancing the ladies. Yeah, he's got confidence. Yeah, he's going to, you know, croon at them and shit. He's trying to make them bang married women. In front of their husbands, apparently.

Which you don't think that would be uncomfortable for you like if you were a single guy and you went out and there was some chick dancing all over you and her husband was standing there the whole night not looking happy wouldn't you be like isn't this weird why is it sitting at the fucking bar swilling in old fashion while i'm rubbing on her ass no yeah i don't want that i hope donald was at least buying him a few drinks here and there like hey send my man a fucking old-fashioned over there, would you? Unless it's square dancing, and I don't want any shit to do with that anyway. Yeah, no one's touching. That's fine. There's no grinding.

So I found that, and I also found a case in the paper where someone got in trouble for selling him liquor when he was 17. He got busted on the way home from a store, and he told on the guy or whatever, and he ended up, someone got in trouble for selling him liquor when he was 17 he got like busted on the way home from a store and he told on the guy or whatever and he ended up someone got in trouble for it the bombards a fucking party the bombards a good time here so she dances with donnie la bombard all night long which who wouldn't um when they get home george and mar Marilyn have an argument over it, obviously. I assume on the way home as well in the car. That car ride was not comfortable.

Oh, it was uncomfortable. There was some shit going on. So during the argument, over the course of it, when they're at home arguing, she tells him that she doesn't love him anymore and she wants a divorce. So not only was there not nothing going on, yeah you don't like it well good i want a divorce anyway and i don't love you so it's like whoa that's not what he expected you loved me four years ago we had a kid yeah fuck's sake yeah what the hell is that about so uh well that was him probably like oh yeah okay let's do that i'll keep her happy but i don't think so it's so i mean

everybody can say it looks all great but they, but there there's cracks in the foundation before it crumbles. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't just crumble. Everyone goes, wow, it was strong yesterday. There was cracks. There's stress fractures in there that nobody knew about. And so George becomes very upset. OK, obviously, like emotional, unpredictable and very like just freaking out so much so that

he goes to the closet and takes a shotgun out oh george oh yeah he gets out a shotgun cocks the shotgun and uh continues the argument holding a shotgun which is a i gotta say if you're gonna have an argument with someone the guy holding the shotgun usually wins how much less disagreeable are you to a person holding a shotgun yeah i mean obviously it's abusive but it's also you know like in life if you were to go on the street and try to haggle with somebody right over a shot with a shotgun you're much more formidable it's the yeah it's it's the uh it's the the stick the talking stick you get to i'm the one holding this so i'm the one that has the floor i'm the winner of this yeah how much yeah you're holding how much you want for it uh 10 grand i'm sorry what was i couldn't hear you there three's good 95 hundred um

i guess i don't know how many does this hold uh you're right five grand it is five grand but this is obviously very abusive he's trying to scare her and that's horrible with a shotgun no one should ever take a shotgun out in the middle of an argument yeah for any reason obviously even if you know bad things happen when shotguns are out in the house when an argument yeah for any reason obviously even if you know bad things happen when shotguns are out in the house when you're having an argument he denies though he said he never intended didn't use it he just had the argument with the shotgun and said he never intended to use it it just like made him feel better to have it which is disturbing it's like a pimp cane imagine you you can't fight with your wife unless you have

a high-powered weaponry in your hand because i'm holding a powder weapon i need this you know don't worry it's just birdshot in there but it's you're still gonna still gonna know this nine millimeter on my hip makes me feel more confidence to talk to you i just feel i just feel better it's like a blankie accepted deadly my deadly blankie that's what i call it it's easier to tell jokes holding it it's so much easier that's what you should try that's well you know what maybe they should from now on that's what we should be doing that's it yeah heavily armed comedians that would be the new thing stop will smith you'd end up saying a punch line if you didn't get the laugh you want you just put your face forward a little bit and they're like yeah no no that was right no you are right that was good that was terrific clever Crowd control at a new level.

So she says she doesn't love him and she wants a divorce, but she doesn't leave and he doesn't leave and they stay together. And they're apparently they're in some kind of weird relationship limbo where they don't. I don't know what's going on. There's still, he thinks they're trying to work it out, but she's saying that she doesn't want to work it out, but she's also, as we'll find out, not even, not actually seeing this other man that she's interested in.

That's the other thing. She's not like going out and seeing him. She's still like working, coming home, doing her normal thing. So it's a really, it's a real, yeah,

just, but she wants this guy but she doesn't want her husband it's very very strange but what ends up happening is the argument frequency escalates very quickly between george something underlying that needs to be worked out they could use therapy well here's what needs to wants needs to be worked out she doesn't want to be married to him anymore and he wants to be married to her still. So there's, you know what I mean? We're at an impasse at that point, and that's that.

I don't know what else we could do. It's not that she's mad at him because she can't trust him. She doesn't love him and wants to fuck other people. That's a completely different problem. But that's for sure. She definitely does want other other men. She does. She's talking to this other guy, but not hooking up with him at all.

That's the way. And we know that because I'll tell you in a minute why we know that. So they're arguing all the time. And she keeps accusing or he keeps accusing her of seeing somebody else. I know you're seeing somebody. I know you're seeing somebody. But she says, I'm not fucking seeing anybody. She's're seeing somebody but she says I'm not fucking seeing anybody she's like adamant about it I'm not seeing anybody so it's very very strange here and that's what most of the arguments would be about that you're seeing somebody I know you're

seeing somebody if she went to the store she's like did you really go to the store did you see somebody oh my god she thinks he's having a relationship with a particular man, Donald Lombard. He thinks she is, yeah. He thinks she is, I'm sorry. Yeah, having an affair with this particular man and would always call, would just call him that bum. You want to go see that bum, don't you? That bum. He's a bum.

That crooning bum. You're going to go see that bum. 57-year-old thing to say. Yeah, he's a bum, I tell you, in 1979. Yeah, you're just going to take half of everything and give it to that young stud. You're going to give it to that bum, aren't you? He's 42, by the way, Donald, at this point. Lombobard is 42?

Lombobard is 42. Lombobard is not exactly, yeah, he's not like, oh, she found some 27-year-old guy that's going to use her. She likes older men, just not that much older. Yeah, she likes guys in their early 40s, it seems like. Both guys she's picked, early 40s. She's trading them in for what she loved. That's what she's into. And, I mean, 34 and 42, you're close in age.

You have the same references. You've seen the same movies. It's all that sort of shit. So it's understandable. So on a few occasions during the these arguments, he would threaten her. George would threaten Marilyn with physical harm and never do anything, but only would threaten her with different weapons. I don't know if he's picking to see which one would scare her. I don't understand.

Into doing what he wanted. It's like, you know, Grand Theft Auto. He's like cycling through his weapons inventory. How do you react to this? What about that? It's crazy. With scissors he's threatened her to stab her and stab her. What does the daughter say? We'll get to it. Oh,

quote, my father asked my mother if she would like the scissors right between the eyes is what their 14 year old daughter jane says which is a little much in front of the kids to where they could hear it yeah do you want these scissors between the eyes that is things have gotten well out of hand if people are threatening with scissors between the eyes yeah it's over. We need a T.O. and someone needs to go stay in a one-bedroom apartment for a while, period. Until they get their act together and can move on because that's what needs to happen. I see an air mattress in someone's future is what I see. If everything could work out.

A shitload of beefaroni. Somebody's eating it. I see dinty more is what i see if everything could work out a shitload of beefaroni somebody's eating it i see dinty more is what i see i see cans and cans of it oh it's very sad does anybody in your family have beefaroni is there a any kind of beefaroni do hot pockets mean anything to you chef puerty also makes a fine beef ravioli do you know of that you get all your protein and your carbs at once since i suggest it for the sad lonely single man out of out of season tamales are you familiar have you ever eaten beans from a can let me ask you that because it's it's something pork and beans especially you don't eat them up at all you just dive right in there patio furniture indoors familiar does

that make sense anybody told you that good no furniture just a tv something like that yeah milk crate nightstands this is any of this ringing about your mattress hold on is directly on the floor i'm psychic i know i can tell you upped you out of the got out of the futon but you still haven't upped yourself to a bed frame yet touching a serta and you feel good about it you said finally a real mattress and you've been walking with your chin held high and you're smiling about it it feels it feels accurate i don't know i don't know man looking good welcome to the small town of chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper in this new thriller available exclusively on wondery plus religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community.

Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer,

unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that

covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. The scissors aren't the only thing he threatened her with. He threatened her with a knife another time, which is worse than scissors, arguably. Another time, not just the one argument, a different argument.

He whipped the shotgun out again. God damn it. And then the other time, he just the one argument, a different argument, he whipped the shotgun out again. God damn it. And then the other time, he had a fake plastic gun. He threatened her with a plastic toy gun because he doesn't have a pistol. So he has a toy pistol. And he was like, what do you think of that? And she's like, is that fucking our four-year-old's toy? What is that?

Does that shoot those orange discs out? What is that gun? Those are great. Those are fun, man. They were a pain in the ass to load, though, those tiny discs in. And then you just, and it's done. Fuck, damn it. Do it again.

Do it again. Shit. I like the foam darts. Those are much easier. Oh, those are, yeah. Plop. There you go. You have to do them one at a time is the only difference. I like the foam darts. Those are much easier. Oh, those are, yes. Plop. There you go.

You have to do them one at a time is the only difference. You can't just go like, like you're empty. Unless you get the foam balls that go in the big one. Oh, yeah, yeah. And then it's battery operated. Yeah, yeah. Those are great. Mow them down. And then you got to pick that shit up.

Those are all at least like bright orange and yellow now when we were kids that the goal was to make child's uh child toy guns as realistic looking as possible remember like enter tech yeah those were just like fucking orange shit off the tip you take it off the tip hand it to your kid and go here you go go get shot by a police officer enjoy because it's like and they looked real as fuck they sure did kids used to get shot by cops all the time because they're and they're pointing real looking guns at them you look at it you go well yeah jesus christ i would have shot the kid too yeah it's like blazing sad she he says that he he threatened her yes he threatened her with physical harm but he said he never actually intended to hurt her he just wanted

to scare her into ending the relationship that she was having an affair with the guy i wanted to frighten her into a happy marriage with me yeah this he's got that's not how you do it no if you've gotten to the point of i don't love you and i want a divorce and i'm i like somebody else you it's you're fucked then it's over you gotta yeah she's not saying i want you to be different she's saying i want you to be another human being right in your place with you in a different place that That's a way different conversation. I want you to meet somebody else and you to live somewhere else. Absolutely. And he's courting her with the reasons that she wants a divorce.

Yes. That's insane. That's what I'm saying. It's like he's compressing it all to where it's like the Big Bang's going to happen here. He keeps mushing the snowball down even further putting more pressure in there more energy yeah that she hates because he's boxing her in too that's so it's like it's rather than trying to show his worth he's taking the opposite approach yeah doing it this isn't how you court is what we're getting

at not not at all children kids this is not how you court but sometimes the obvious has to be said so you never know people say crazy shit and we're gonna balance it out say the obvious sometimes so uh the their kid here jane um she said she heard the arguments all the time beginning about easter which is right when the it's when this guy came into the picture here uh she said she heard her father accuse her mother of seeing another man she told of hearing her father threatened her mother with a pair of scissors and other times just threatened to kill her verbally um you know i have scissors right you know you don't have to whip them out every time um if you'd like the scissors right between the eyes and all this type of shit um she uh also said that he would just make various

quote threats of mutilation to the mother which i don't know what that means take your toe off yeah like a little thumbness you know carve you up and do things like that like crazy shit that you don't say to anybody. That's insane. She said before Easter, they seemed to have a good relationship. As far as she, she didn't hear him arguing anyway. Like we said, we don't know if they were happy, but to a kid, if there's no fighting, everything's great. Right. You must be happy.

That's how we think of it. Now, he says he's got a different take on this whole thing. Now, everything from her alleged affair to his behavior, he thinks it can be answered with another explanation. He says later on, quote, I thought the house was possessed by the devil. Yeah. quote i thought the house was possessed by the devil yeah so that's hard to get around when you got demons and such around your head demons and such is a good name for this episode by the way when there's demons in such a foot it's difficult to really work on your marriage obviously so the narcissism involves with that it couldn't possibly be me it has to be this wood

and copper piping i can't be fucked up in the head the devil's after me and my marriage that's a lot holy shit um he said that and he also said this is amazing because it sounds like he's trying to downplay it a little bit this is why i sort of believe him because of the way he says it. Quote, I may have even thought I heard the devil talking to me. Oh, boy. That means the devil talked to me all the time. I listened and answered back. I had a conversation.

I may have even thought I heard. So that's two softeners in there, which means no. I just take those out and I say, I heard the devil talking to me, and that's perfect. Take the other ones out. This is dangerous. This is bad. Yeah, his house is possessed by the devil and his wife is possessed by a demon cock, apparently. It's got a lot of problems here.

So his daughter from the previous marriage there, Jill, she is actually 22 at this point, so that means she was born in 57. So she's like, oh, that poor kid was a fucking, she was eight when her mom died. That's so fucked, man. So fucked. and the dad's aiding somebody 12 years older than her yeah oh that's that's sad also back then though

think about this back then like a 43 year old guy might be he might not even know how to like do anything with it he might be like i need to get a woman in the house yeah to be a father a mother because i gotta get a replacement mother in the 60s that's how people she's about to get her period and i don't know what the fuck to do i don't have any goddamn idea i gave her like a handful of loose leaf paper i don't think that's gonna help her so once a month i make her go sit in that chimney down at friendly's she goes up on top he're just sitting there for a little while just gotta say bob's away let him know it's coming people are going to be gathered around so you want to let them know to clear out clear out that's gonna draw a crowd once a month the chimney bleeds for a week it's crazy just down the walls there's priests there blessing it

it's like always sunny when they had the stain on the wall oh god so it's immaculate it's immaculate now in addition yeah in addition to uh his thinking the house is possessed and may have thought he heard the devil talking to me. I may have thought the devil. I'm not sure, though. It could have been the TV, but I swear to God it said, kill your family, burn the house down, be my slave. I thought that's what I heard, but it might have just been Kojak.

I'm not sure. It's, you know, had the TV on. So the daughter from previous marriage said that George started telling her that he had been receiving threatening phone calls from Donald Lombard. Okay. And we don't know if this is true or not, but that's what he's telling her. This could be figments of his imagination. He might think that's the devil and it's just Donald Lombard. The devil calls me on the phone and says he wants to fuck my wife.

It's crazy. He's got to be talking to me. I hear him. I answer the phone. Hello. Hello. Hey, I'm fingering your wife to some songs right now. I answer the phone. Yellow. Yellow. Hey, I'm fingering your wife to some songs right now. By the way, I did some recon.

The devil's name is Donald, just in case you want to call him by name next time you're announcing him. D, D, it's alliteration. Devil Donald. It works. Donald the devil. Donald the devil. You bastard.

Lombobard. His last name's so fun. It's very fun i want to say it all the time lomba bard i want to say it in different accents lomba bard i want to get it i want to really shout it from the rooftops lomba bard sounds like something you'd be calling from a ship yeah like in another all aboard in another language is lomba board lomba bar and people are hurrying across fucking waving that's what the cruise ship screams when you're out there duty free that's what it is yeah lomba bar so if you're in i don't know some other country in sp In Spain. It's Lombobard in Spanish. Oh, it's Lombobard time. So, yeah, they said that she said that he thinks he's been receiving threatening phone calls from either Donald Lombobard or the devil. Either way.

We're not sure. One of the two. We can't. Who can call it? Who knows? She said she talked to her dad about the incident before Easter, about the dancing and all of this shit in person here. She said she had talked to her dad. Then she talked also to Marilyn at the home.

She was like trying to be, I think she's trying to be a go-between. think she's trying to mediate the whole yeah she's trying to fix it and she said while she was talking to marilyn in the bedroom she said through the door came her dad with a shotgun oh god and she was like oh my um she said that mara that jill the daughter said that she got up and was the you know donald or george and George let her take the shotgun from him. But, I mean, he went into a room with his daughter and wife with a shotgun. Jesus Christ. That's a wild thought right there. She said he had shells, too, in his other hand, but it wasn't loaded yet.

He was loading it. He was about to load it. What the shit, man? Yeah, left him sitting with shells in his hand so uh she said that she told marilyn to go she lived across the street jill so she said come with me across the street you know and you know hang out let him cool off and she took the shotgun with her so at some point some neighbor was looking out the window and saw two ladies crossing the street with a shotgun which is pretty funny i don't know why we're here to cool off we're here yeah we're cooling off everybody it's fine i'm taking her to the chimney don't worry about it

so uh september of 1979 george starts to be suspicious of something. And he's not a stupid guy, George. That's the other thing here. He starts suspecting that whoever she's talking to on the phone is using a signal when telephoning. Like, back in the day, people would do like, you know, I don't answer my phone, so if it's you, ring twice and hang up. You know what I mean? Let it ring twice and hang up. That sort of shit.

And then I'll call you back. You know? So he said, hmm, what's that about? And it was a call. It was one ring, hang up and, and call back.

That was the, how it would work. And then they'd call back and he, you know, she would know that it was her boyfriend calling. This is what he said. So he did it. He called rang once.

George did this himself from work. He's like, let me see. She's home right now rang hang up called back and she answered the phone quote hi lover oh no yeah not good not nailed it uh yeah he figured out the code which is you know he's not an idiot she hung so he was like what you fucking you know blah blah blah started she hung up immediately when she i fought hitler yeah i fought her click so oh no hi lover i fought hitler ah click shit

wrong lover ah damn it so she hung up immediately and uh then, then she never, she didn't come home from work that night. She stayed out. Okay. Um, so later on she tells George, uh, by telephone that, Oh,

the reason why I haven't been home is because I moved into my mother's house and I have the kids with me too. So we're moving out. Enjoy. It's over. Essentially. Yeah. She said that she's not going to return to the house. That's it. I moved in with my mother, Margaret.'s not going to return to the house that's it

i moved in with my mother margaret we're going to mag's house over here it's over with so i at 723 massachusetts avenue is her address so he said that from then on he was telling people she was freezing him out freezing him out and she left you yeah she's not freezing you out you don't have a relationship anymore and would not talk to him. They have to figure out some sort of children thing going. I mean, obviously. So they got to talk. Don't worry. There will be. There'll be chat.

She should do it through lawyers because he brings shotguns to conversations. Those conversations are difficult to have. They're a lot more difficult. So he ended up speaking with a lawyer about a divorce at one point. And he was told that he had a good chance of getting custody of the children due to his wife's desertion and adultery. If you could prove all of that.

But that's ridiculous. Like adultery doesn't mean that you're not a good parent. It just means that you didn't want to fuck that person anymore. That's a way. Those are separate issues. I think they've changed that today that that that doesn't matter it's ridiculous but back then it probably mattered because the religion and shit like that played a part in it it should matter for alimony yeah you know somebody shouldn't have to pay somebody just because that person wanted to fuck somebody else like hey that's sorry you can have

money or or whatever genitals you're going after there one or the two but you can't have both you know that's not right so that would be the only thing but desertion is one thing either way though that's not being abusive to the children not being a bad mother that's just shit toward him which desertion you can validate that behavior by uh gun fucking play you can't gunplay is that's not desertion anymore that's a flight for my life that's fleeing in fear of your life that's exactly what that is to protect your children right because there's somebody who whips out all sorts of different creative weapons and threatens me with them he said that uh he told his lawyer quote she just cut me off this is in september she said he said that they hadn't had sex in over two months

out of september he's lucky he's got he got any ass in july honestly because i thought she was done with him in april i'm surprised i'm being honest right am i crazy here good for him for uh i mean realizing that that is the signal because i didn't i stuck i stuck around much longer stuck around much longer with no ass in the house and then uh thankfully that went away well for him he's listening he's you know what though he's very perceptive he's very open to He's listening. He's you know what, though? He's very perceptive. He's very open to phone ring signals, you know, like the devil talking to him.

He's got his ears open. That's what I'm getting at. Yeah. He picks up codes real quick. Very aware of his surroundings. He's like a deer. Anything happens. He just turns his head real quick.

Call that World War Two veteranship, knowing how to speak in codes and interpret signals flashing lights and morse code and no pussy maybe he broke nazi nazi codes while getting no pussy and having no pussy strengthens your brain yeah this is this is what happens here there's an episode of seinfeld where george's george's girlfriend has mono and they can't fuck for like a month. So with no sex, he ends up like becoming like a genius. Like it opens up. He's like, I was dedicating 90% of my brain power to trying to get sex. He goes, with that put out of my head, because it's not like he's trying and he's not getting laid.

He knows he's getting laid in a month. So he's like, I just got to put that out of my head so with that out of my head my mind's open and he's like he's learning science and he's like he's no he knows calculus and he's he learns like all these different languages and then she's better and she fucks him or he finds some other girl and bangs her or whatever and then like he's like you know playing with like gi joe figures in the next scene back to being a dummy exactly and i think that's more true than we should really let on probably i fucking i i i genuinely that's probably true because i was doing very well with comedy uh while not fucking my wife well also not fucking is good for comedy because it's going to make you

bitter and give you a little extra edge to your jokes yeah yeah we were both in the same boat there for a few years there so no sexual relations there and uh yeah so she's moved out. George begins to just deteriorate now. Deteriorate. He would just, out of nowhere, sitting at dinner, he'd just openly start weeping out of nowhere. Oh, George. People are talking about, yeah, did you see they're closing the friendlies? That's such a shame. I know.

I love their ice cream. It's great. Oh, God. And they're like, because the ice cream cones are good sorry george um um yeah but they're opening a pay less shoe store down the street god damn it she loves shoes have you been to the chimney george is like marilyn loves shoes she had so many pairs but he should be going i'm 57 she's in her 30s of course she left yeah of course she left you know i mean count your lucky days that she was there for so long yeah yeah find some fucking yeah find a nice age appropriate woman or not whatever just some woman who likes you and right you know wants to have sex with you and you know whatever um not only would he cry at home he would start openly weeping at work oh my at work he'd be just at the wire plant with the cornish hens and everything

and he's just sitting there and just would start weeping to where the co-workers were like um should we what like what the fuck he didn't eat he wouldn't eat he wouldn't sleep well oh that yeah he's a does i mean that's yeah that's i mean depression obviously uh he was distracted agitated they said he was very like not himself um but just the out of nowhere weeping was really brutal man just know, a few people working and doing their thing out of nowhere. And he's like, holy shit. Like, like hard weeping. They're saying not just like tears rolling down his cheek and he's trying to cover it.

He was just like, oh, God, just letting it happen. Let it fly. His weight went from 140 pounds to about 125 pounds. pounds oh he could not afford to lose any weight no he's a little guy anyway he's a little short little guy but still that's very that's the you now you're even smaller that's very very small and uh he began contemplating suicide openly to people he'd start weeping maybe i should just kill myself oh my god george let's get a sandwich calm the fuck down man bro there's nothing and it's so sad because you can tell you know that they obviously it's ripping him apart inside which maybe you shouldn't have pulled

out um you know weaponry on your wife and this wouldn't happen that's the other thing yeah if you brought home flowers instead of a shotgun during that argument, that's a start is what I'm getting at. Things might have worked out differently is what I'm saying. You can't just whip out shotguns and expect people to fall into line with what you're wanting to do with their future. It's not going to do it. So this is self-inflicted, but still it's a person suffering and you're like, oh, that really sucks. He's contemplating suicide and everything. On two different occasions, he had to be driven home by supervisors at work because he was so emotionally distraught.

Too distraught to drive? Oh, my God. To work or drive. Oh, dear God. The therapy that he needs right now. Yeah. Holy shit. They sent him home early, but they didn't want to let him drive because he was right now. Yeah. Holy shit. They sent him home early,

but they didn't want to send, they didn't want to let him drive because he was such a fucking mess. And they were like, God, I'm responsible for that. If he goes and crashes into a fucking pole or something, that's my fault. So they'd have to,

they drive him home. Dear God. There you go, George, get yourself some McDonald's or something. Get some pizza delivered. Have a good one, George.

And they drive away like, Whoa, you get back to the office holy shit uh finally he decided to go to a local hospital okay and ask for some help that's very good george nice work he goes to a local hospital and they say that he's suffering from a i love 1979 psychological diagnosis now the severe anxiety state so Now, the severe anxiety state. So it's just severe anxiety state, which I think it's a little more than that. Maybe that's the broad stroke.

That's definitely what it is. I think there's some definite depression, suffering, severe anxiety. But the depression is the is the main part. And he and he's claiming that he's receiving threatening phone calls. He's saying weird shit. Threatening phone calls. The house may or may not be possessed by the devil. I think I may.

I think I might hear devil noises. Anxiety's not what's doing that. That's what I mean. He's got a lot of other problems, but they just say severe anxiety. Here's some Valium. Calm the fuck down. That's literally what they do. They give him some Valium and send him home.

Which the side effect of valium is fucking suicidal tendencies suicidal tendency isn't like hallucinations and there's a lot yeah if you use a lot of valium it's gonna fuck you up you're gonna hear the devil right yeah you're gonna want to lock doors okay stay alone with that. And they send him home to his futon with a bottle of Valium. Head on home to your shotgun and futon. Fuck out of my office. Here's some Valium. This ought to help.

Holy shit. Here's some Valium. The Valium's almost like the flour in that cake mix. It's really necessary for a bad... Brings it all rise makes everything rise that's the east it rise and and stick together makes it stick together there you go holy shit and he's saying he's telling him about the paranoid thoughts of receiving phone calls and everything like that co-workers of his are saying that, it's one is a woman named Hope Lucier.

She says that he was a quote, a really fun person to work with until April. Yeah. When we started stocking Kleenex. Yeah. We were like, geez, what's wrong with George? They said that's when rumors started to persist around the general cable company plant about his wife having an affair and that's which at work to be like that's the that's the rumor that oh yeah when you go home like your wife bangs around this other guy that's a that sucks man that's that's a that's shit that's

uncomfortable i'm not even take the schnapps out of it i'm only thinking of the other co-workers when i go to you're going to a fucking work at a cable plant you're not you don't give a shit and take the schnapps out of it. I'm only thinking of the other coworkers. When I go to, you're going to a fucking work at a cable plant. You're not, you don't give a shit. You don't care about that. You just,

you're at work at a, doing men, like labor. Like this, this, fuck, I don't need your drama too. Right.

I'm earning a living. I'm trying to earn a living. And while my thoughts are on other shit, and I've got to have the thoughts of your shit, too? Although I do love gossip. So, you know what? Maybe. Yeah. And, you know, sometimes gossip makes your shit situation feel so much better.

Yeah. And it could pass time in the day. You and your coworker could talk for three hours about how you think this lady's banging somebody else or this guy's crazy or whatever the subject is. That makes the day pass. You can do that. So, yeah, she said she's known this guy for 10 years and worked with him in the same room for years and everything, and she said he was a great guy,

but after that, quote, he just wasn't the same person. She said that out of nowhere, quote, he'd start talking and shaking all over. Yeah. He had this thing where he'd just start shaking. Everybody loves gossip until you're the gossip. Then it's not good. No.

It gets really bad. He was just a trembling wreck, people called him. The Hope Lucier said, quote, he was a trembling wreck. So there you go. Exactly that. Exactly that. wreck so there you go exactly that exactly that she also says this hope woman that uh a cafeteria telephone she's where she believes that george uh is where i'm sorry where uh he believed that donald would call her uh there and it was visible from his work area and he would stare at the phone

like he's calling my wife on that phone and they said that you know that he all he would talk about was that he thinks his wife is having an affair and have you seen anything uh another guy here lewis les les carbo oh yeah that's a good name les carbo he is the employee who's responsible for first aid at the General Cable plant. So he's the guy that at one point they were like, someone's got to be. Hey, fucking pay it. Stop. Stop working for two minutes.

Pay attention. Somebody here has to be the first. We have to put it down on the sheet. It's the fucking law. There's OSHA now. Someone's got to be in charge of the first aid kit okay who's it gonna be right all right but pete it's you i'm putting your name down so that's it pete so then when the time comes pete's like oh fuck that's my responsibility now someone needs shit somebody has something in their eye pete come here it was like three years ago i

said i would do that i don't remember that. That's literally how it works. In the case of a fire, who's the floor warden? Who is it? You got to wear a vest. You can tell I've worked in warehouses before because that's exactly how that kind of shit works. It's exactly how it works. It's always the same person has to do all the shit. It's the one that the boss trusts.

Yeah. Because if it's me, they know I'm leaving. They know I'm leaving. It's a heavyset lady in her 50s that's going nowhere. Every time. Has worked there for 20 years. And she wants to move up, but it's never happening. Yeah.

She doesn't even want to. That's the weird part. You go, would you like a promotion? She goes, I'm just happy as a clam. And you're like, what? What's wrong with you? Can I stay here? I like this one.

What's wrong with you, lady? Can I stay here? I like this one. What's wrong with you, lady? So, yeah, he gets called to the floor of the plant to deal with him. He's got like Band-Aids and some gauze in his hand, and George is just crying and shaking and weeping. They want him to first aid his brain? That's not the guy.

That's not the guy. Thank you. You don't call him. You call the guy who's responsible for you cutting your finger while you're wrapping something. This guy's got a bee sting swab. This isn't going to do it. He literally showed up with the white box with the fucking cross on it and was like, oh. I got nothing in here.

Where'd you cut yourself, George? Oh, jeez. That sounds like burn gel. Sounds like burn gel gel we're gonna put this down right here is there valium in this thing nope just gauze more gauze i thought maybe there was value in the gauze can be antiseptic his brain i don't think so i don't think this isn't going well so uh yes i can't put neosporin in there jesus christ what the fuck so his daughter has gotten married in the last couple years here his daughter jill got married not the 14 year old the 20 some year old here she got married her mother-in-law also talks about this uh she says that she and her husband so her mother and father-in-law visited uh george on saturday october 7th 1979 she said at that time george was shaken uh shaking

so badly all the time that he could barely light a cigarette wow that's how oh his ashtrays are overflowing in that fucking house imagine him just sitting there chain oh chain anxiety smoking oh man um and she also said quote he kept on repeating himself over and over he was just like and i do that again and he just kept repeating himself smoking thinking the devil's talking to him pile this is a crazy scene so a basket case absolutely he also told her that he uh quote couldn't hold nothing down and he would either uh he would either sit in the living room with the doors closed and all the curtains drawn or he would like you know go go to bed to bed those were his two things that he did so depression yeah um october 10th comes around he starts turning some of this depression outwardly and um that's a problem here he he talks to marilyn yeah and it's not reasonable

he threatened to quote make her suffer like she's never suffered before. Oh, boy. That's what he said. But he hadn't touched her yet. He hasn't physically harmed her. But he's began to just say, I'm just going to threaten your life now and make you suffer and all this shit. So that same day, that's the October 10th, that same day, he went to see his attorney, Richard Fitzpatrick, and he went with one of his neighbors. I don't know if his neighbor drove him because he's so shaky or what, but this is one of his neighbor's 17-year-old sons drove him to his divorce lawyer meeting and came in with him and shit.

He didn't even wait in the car. I'm the driver. meeting and came in with him and shit like he didn't even wait in the car i'm the driver he didn't even like wait in the car with fucking sultan's a swing on or something just like i don't know i got this dire straights eight track i'm gonna pop that in and see what happens corner thumbing through a national geographic yeah he's like what is this golf digest what is he like wouldn't if you were 17 and your neighbor who was 57 was like, yeah, come in with my divorce lawyer with me. I'd be like, I'll be in the car. Are you kidding me?

I don't need to be exposed to what that shit is yet. I'm too young for this. I want no part of your intermarital bullshit. None. I'm done with it. So, yeah, he was getting seeking more general information on what his rights would be in the event of the divorce. Now, George, according to him and his neighbor, David, here, he told the lawyer that his goal was still to have a reconciliation with Marilyn. Yeah. George thinks he thinks this is reputable.

It's still that it's not. this is uh reparable still that's it's not and and several times during the interview he broke down and cried and had to take a break and then he'd come back and then he'd keep talking again george yeah it's it's a it's it's a lot um so october 12th 1979 here so that was the 10th this is the 12th um she talks to her sister this morning and um said that um that she talks to her sister this morning and said that she talked to George. He threatened to make her suffer like she'd never suffered before. You know how that goes. And also that he finally, though, after threatening her life, he relented and said that he's going to move out of the apartment so she could keep the apartment because that's where the kids have lived. And it's easier for one person to relocate than four.

Okay. You know, and all that shit. So her sister said that she, you know, said this has been going on since around Easter. She's been hearing from her sister and all this. And she said that day before, her sister told her, quote, I just don't love him anymore. I can't take any more from him. She's just done, man. That's it.

So she said she asked her sister, Marilyn, if there's another guy like what's going on because they hadn't really gotten in depth about it. And she said her sister denied any extramarital affair. She did say a little later, though, that though that yes she's in love with donald lomba bard i'm in love with donald lomba bard it's too many syllables too many syllables donnie lomba b yeah so he's uh i'm in love with her but she said that she told her sister but the thing is i want to be with him, but we've never dated. We've never been together. We've only spoken to each other over the telephone.

They work the same shift, but not in the same area of the plant. But she's calling him lover. So she's in love with the idea of being in love with him. It's love after lockup, Jimmy. That's what it is. They call the phone, hey, baby, how's it going? Oh, I'm all right. What's up? I'm just in jail. I'm over here just trying to do whatever. after lockup yeah that's what it is it's they call the phone hey baby how's it going oh my you know what's up i'm just in jail and you know i'm over here just trying to do whatever on this

side of the plant she's like yeah you know i'm getting my vibrator out we're gonna have like sexy time you know what i'm saying like that's what it is she's having like a a relationship like that because she said she has the kids and everything and can't really go you know gallivanting around with somebody so now george that same day she talks to her sister has a reasonable conversation about her feelings and emotions george on the other hand is at work that day and he asks a co-worker of his named james hurley if he would buy him a gun oh no would you buy me a gun he tells the co-worker james he says like you know i've been receiving these threatening telephone calls and i'm just afraid someone's going to come over to my house and harm me and not to mention he's like 125 130 pound guy he's

not the biggest guy so he's like shrinking and shrinking and by the day yeah um so he was he's so fucking emotional though yeah after this from talking about stuff that the first aid guy remember we talked about him uh mr uh les carbo he was called in again he knows to leave the kit back by now though he doesn't even bring it anymore all i've got is a giant reflective blanket do you want to snuggle in it will that make you feel better that's all i've got it's real crinkly though it's going to be annoying it's loud it's loud but we'll put you under a lamp and we'll do that there's earplugs in here too that might help i don't know huh anything give it a shot splinters i have tweezers i can no. They keep calling that poor bastard. There's iodine in here for some reason.

I don't even know what that does. Do you need that? Do you need iodine? He's so shaken up, though, that by 8, remember, his shift is 7 a.m. to 3. By 8.15 a.m., he's in such an emotional state that the first aid guy has to drive him home. Hour into his shift. You shouldn't have even started working yet. You should still be getting coffee, taking a piss maybe, have some conversations.

He's already asked for a gun and had a mental breakdown by 8.15. Sun's barely up. Holy shit. This is just a lot i mean like i said i get the other people they don't know about the shotguns and all these shit you think they're i think they're all like they feel bad but they're all getting to the point where they're like okay this is like disruptive now we gotta like get him help or something but he's got to not be in this situation if he's going to be he's breaking down all the time so both the first aid guy and george's boss both drove him home a two-man job he's so fucked we need one guy to hold him the

other to drive maybe like two part like a partner situation like they're transporting a prisoner it's fucking insane so they drove him to his home and uh that was that so after three o'clock when his co-worker shift ended um he he and that co-worker they went to uh a place called where is it bob's gun shop i thought i really thought you were gonna say this guy went back to work waited for a shift to get off came over and kept track of him, talked him through it. Conned him down. Instead, took him to a fucking gun shop. He said, sure, I'll get you that gun.

Hopefully it's for you and I don't got to drive you home anymore. It's fucking crazy. Yeah. So this James early went in, he bought the guns. Wow. He bought a.22 pistol and also a starter pistol. What is that? I don't know why.

A starter pistol, like a PANG. Oh, like a fake gun? Yeah, like for a race. I don't know why he needed that, but he's got that and a.22 caliber pistol. And some bullets. All this was $98. Wow. Good deal.

1979 was rad. That's very cheap so uh he gets a box ammo 22 pistol and a starter pistol um so he said that he got the starter pistol to scare the caller if there was an attempt at a break-in and then the 22 was for backup in case he actually needed to use a gun to protect his son who his son had moved back in with him at this point uh the the youngest son because she's works from fucking 7 to 11 so someone has to watch him he's home so or from 3 to 3 to 11 she works so he's home so i understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx,

and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, it's a Luger 22 pistol here, semi-automatic, and a Volcanic blank starter pistol. That's what he got in here. And it was $98.87, and he came out, and George paid him the money for the guns, and then they went to Roger's Roost to have some beers.

Okay. He's emotionally unstable. Yeah. On medication. I'm going to arm him, and then let's lube him up with some liquor. I think that's going to make the situation better. Arm a man on Valium, and then pour booze on top of that that's crazy so he thinks well i'll have a few beers with him and talk to him and you know maybe that'll

help him as well but yeah a couple of guys are gonna sit down and talk it out here so i mean he needs a shoulder you know what i mean so he uh then he he also hurley shows george how to load the gun and how you know everything works on it it. So make sure he's an efficient guy with it. Give him a tutorial. So they have three beers each is what they say here at Rogers Roost. And Hurley said that George tells him over these three beers. I'm sure there was a couple of tears shed in the middle of this too. A couple of breakdowns in between.

Yeah, a couple of breakdowns, especially in your beer. Said that my wife has been seeing Donald Lombard. You know him. He works at the place. And yeah, I know his name's fun to say, but he's an asshole. He's a dick, man. I don't like it. I need another beer.

He said that also that George was telling this guy that he wasn't feeling well. He's having trouble with ulcers. Everything's falling apart. He also tells him that he goes, everything's he's having trouble with ulcers everything's falling apart he also tells him that he goes everything's falling apart i got ulcers i got this problem that problem he shakes his head he goes i'll tell you i'm mad enough to kill oh boy okay so at this point finally the co-worker puts two and two together this hurley guy and he said are you gonna get in any trouble with that gun george i didn't just my name's attached to that george he shakes his head george and says no way a bullet's too good for her i'd choke that bitch to death okay you could have stopped after bullets

bullets too good for her no no he's got a plan if he's gonna kill her and it ain't gonna be that easy so i mean when the devil's talking to you what are you gonna do yeah the devil whispering in my ear how do you hold a straight face when a guy says something like that especially if there's like a if there's like a pregnant pause like like a solid delivery of that line if this guy's a comic he could have crushed with that if he had good timing yeah yeah he could he could have been the fucking man that was good shit so the day of june of october 13th 1979 later on uh and that later on in the day yeah there's the the children jane allen and tr Tracy are all out shopping with, uh, Jill,

his grown daughter. Yeah. He takes him, take some shopping and whatever. Um, so, um, George,

um, ends up, uh, I'm sorry that Marilyn, you would go all the time with her mother to the apartment every Saturday to get clothes for the week for her and the kids. So she kind of was using that as a home base still because they're going to move back in. But you know how it works here. So there's a lot of moving around.

A lot of ins and outs. So she that day, she left by, didn't take her mother that day, Marilyn. She comes, leaves for the apartment about 2 30 PM. Her mother says. So, um, at this point he talks to his neighbor, the one that came with him to the lawyer appointment. You'll,

you'll tell that guy anything. George tells this neighbor that he's going to call his wife and have her come pick up some things. And that's what she does. He said he was thinking of letting his wife have the apartment, which the day before the wife had said that that's all been worked out now uh she this was the first time that this guy said that george had ever indicated that he was going to leave the apartment or even thinking about it so he asked the neighbor to keep the youngest child with her if his wife brought uh if his wife brought the youngest child so uh they

could talk you know i want to talk to my wife do you mind if my if she brings the youngest can i bring her over to you now she's already out with the daughter so it doesn't matter um so he says please come over and talk and we'll talk about our marital difficulties and all of that shit um he said he wanted his children at home and that he wanted his family to remain intact. And they sat down at the dinette set, which is that's what it is, an apartment dinette set. And that's what he did. He laid out his case. I want to stay with the kids.

I want them to have a family. I want everything intact. I don't want you to ruin our lives. Blah, blah, blah. He broke down crying several times over this conversation. He would cry for crying and crying and crying he would beg her to let the children live with him and to keep the fat please don't leave with the kids blah blah blah his wife here marilyn replied no i'm going to court you're going to give me all the furniture and you're going to get the hell out of here and

you won't have anything that's what she said because she's sick of this by now it's been this is a lot dude it's months of threats and crying and then alternating crying and threats so it's enough then i guess he said something that she couldn't understand so then she stood up and pointed to her crotch and said you will never touch this again because i've got something bigger and better for it oh no you can't do that um yeah that's what she said which i mean you can but i i mean if you have an emotionally unstable potentially violent person in front of you it might not be the best idea you i mean it's just for better oh yeah this is a he's already a beaten man he knows he's well aware he's saying he gets it that's why you're the man's crying at work that's exactly what he believes but at the same time he's also harassing her so it's like he's got he's so hard to you know feel

bad for because of that uh yeah but that that's something where you're like you know you're poking the bear there sure so george at this point claims that his mind went blank and he quote went berserk oh no he went to the cabinet and got out the new pistol that he bought she made a world war ii veteran feel fucking emasculated snap no it went mine went blank um so yeah that that yeah that generation wasn't real oh i'm not a man i'll show you i'm trying to think that's like my grandfathers and they were all yeah i mean both my grandfathers were like alcoholics who were you know a little nuts so no dangerous not not the greatest guys in the, you know, a little nuts. A little dangerous. Not the greatest guys in the world, you know what I'm saying?

Like as far as on the home front. Yeah. So he ends up, this is the pistol still in the box, by the way. Brand new. So while she's at the dinette set, he takes the pistol out of the box, drops the box on the floor, takes shells out, fucking loads the thing in the clip because it's a semi-auto. Pops the clip in and shoots her. Shoots her.

Shoots her twice. Bang, bang. She fell down. Then he shoots her twice in the chest, by the way. Pop, pop. It was probably a decent shot. He's a World War II vet. Then he'll say later on that she was still breathing and shivering, so he shot her again.

He went and stood over her and shot her close range. Just executed right down on her. Then he says, he'll say say what he skipped one thing. He then turns the gun on himself and his chest fires a shot off as well. Tries to shoot himself in the chest. Okay. Um, the thing is he's,

he doesn't die. The bullet ends up kind of shooting up his shoulder and coming out the back of his shoulder spooked him. So yeah, well he's very shaky. Remember? so when he tells this later on he does skip the part where uh well you know what we'll get to it hold on here so shortly before 3 p.m he calls the neighbor the woman he had asked and her son that came to the david that came to the divorce lawyer appointment. He calls the neighbor, and the 17-year-old picks up. This poor 17-year-old's hurt way too much.

He said, hey, David, how's it going? Shot my wife and tried to kill myself as well over here, in case you're wondering. He said that that's what happened. He goes, I did this because of what she had done to me. So that's what's going on. So David hangs up and calls the police, obviously. And they all go over there.

David, he's 17 years old. He runs over and he called the police. He and his brother both go to the apartment there. His brother's 21. And they said that he said, I killed my wife with the gun that I bought the previous day. I got this. He said, I shot her twice and the gun that I bought the previous day. I got this. He said, I shot her twice and she was still shivering. So I shot her again.

Yeah. He tells them that. And they're like, whoa, this is fucking crazy. He said that then later on, he says about him, quote, he wanted help. He said he tried to kill himself, but he was shaking so badly he missed. Oh, boy. So he was asking them. He was like like can you

either call an ambulance or kill me like one of the two you know any of the either of that i'll do that so they're like we'll just 911 it yeah quick here i'm getting the ambulance going here um it's off somebody else yeah um he also said that this is a weird thing. The boys, when they're interviewed by police about this, the guys next door, they say they bring up a weird thing from the Fourth of July. There was a family party in the Fourth of July that the neighbors were coming to and stuff, you know, like a barbecue. During this barbecue, he told the 17-year-old, every time I try to make love to her, she spits in my face. He's like, oh, are there more hot dogs? This one's a little more done than I wanted it. Can you do?

Yeah. Are there buns? Are we out of buns? Okay, never mind. I don't need it off the plate. This one's a little charred. You got a little more rare? I don't want to dip it in mustard.

Just, you know, less charred. I don't want to taste just char i used a i used a beer to wash down the other one to push it down really i chewed it but it wouldn't move oh my god jesus christ so it's still there so police arrive here here. Captain Richard Bush comes up. Dick Bush is his name. Dick Bush. Fuck yeah.

My God. Jesus Christ. That's amazing. I like that guy. Captain? Captain Penis Vagina comes over. Captain Penis Hair. Here he is.

Oh boy. He comes over. He arrived a couple minutes later. It's a small town. Yeah. And he said that George just said, I just shot my wife. Yeah. Just like when he walked in, like, how's it going?

Shot my wife just to get you up to speed of everyone who comes through the door. So he is obviously going to be arrested, as we'll talk about. He's also got a bullet wound we have to worry about. But upon the police arrival, he asked the officer to check and see if his wife had died. Yeah. You see if she's dead? Yeah.

So the officer went over and felt a pulse and said, yeah, she's gone. And he said, good. Can you call my buddy from the office? I need first aid now yeah can you call tim or whatever the fuck his name is he's got the best band-aids in town so the cops take him to the hospital for treatment uh the cop that takes him has known him for 29 years wow they're friends it's a small town they're friends

so the officer said he or george said to the officer that he wouldn't hurt a fly i wouldn't hurt a fly even though there's two people with gunshot wounds in them because of him so the officer advised him don't talk to me don't say anything until you talk to a lawyer please stop talking he goes you know we register your rights don't make me go to court with this yeah he said please stop talking george's answer quote the devil made me do it oh god george don't say that so i said no george fuck george you're making this so juicy please stop so then the officer said three more times he said i'm gonna tell you again please stop george i'm serious don't say anymore i'm telling you you can't say anymore so then he said i love my wife and children i do but just between just between you and i which did you hear

the miranda warnings i just gave you there is no between you and I once Miranda warnings are given. George, you don't get it. You just signed a release is what you did for your likeness and words. He said, just between you and I, I did it because she was cheating on me. And the devil, of course, obviously. But the devil intervened, but that was the main crux of it, of why I was mad. George, if they schedule your court dates onx of it, of why I was mad. George, if they schedule your court dates on my day off, I have to be there, you son of a bitch.

Now, let me tell you the part he skipped that makes himself seem like, I'm just a poor guy that snapped and shot off a couple gunshots. Went, oh my God, what have I done? Pow, shot myself. Didn't exactly happen like that. The cause of death, three gunshot woundsshot wounds obviously to the heart and lungs just perforated it all um the ballistic evidence indicated that the gun was fired within two to four feet of her so very close and it also indicated that one shot had been fired while she was on the floor which is the one he

shot out anywhere like he just like he said. There's three holes in the front of her parka that were found to have microscopic areas of gunpowder residue. That's close range. And a fourth on the back of the parka showed evidence of only lead residue. So that's one that...

It came through, yeah. That's a through and through. All the shit got wiped off in her body. She said also a blue jersey belonging to George contained two holes in the shoulder. One in the front showing lead and powder. One in the back, lead only. So through and through on that one too. And she also identified on the scene blood stains on a beige jacket belonging to George as well as blood stains on a gauze wrapper. There's unidentifiedains on a beige jacket belonging to george as well as bloodstains

on a gauze wrapper there's unidentified stains on a paper towel there's all sorts of shit everywhere the thing is that he skipped over a lot not only does she have three gunshot wounds there is a pair of we can't really get a definitive either wire cutters or scissors inside of her. Oh, boy. Jammed inside of her. Stabbed. Stabbed in her. Oh, no.

Not in her chest, in her vagina, Jenny. Unbelievable. So that there are. Yeah, there's. So personal. That's sticking out of her at the time. God damn it. He skipped all of that part and made it sound the very heat of the moment-y, but that is very not heat of the moment.

That is awful fucking torture. Took some time to think about something horrible. Wow. Yeah. I'm going to do this to her. There, I'm going to take that. So he gives a statement. Oh, that's so horrible.

He's leaving behind children that are going to know that that is yeah what the fuck man disturbing did that to your mom he gives a statement under questioning here he said this is about two hours after this whole thing has happened he's in a hospital room being fed intravenously yeah while they take a statement um they did the officer said they did not inquire if he was being prepped for surgery He's in a hospital room being fed intravenously while they take a statement. The officer said they did not inquire if he was being prepped for surgery or what the deal was, but they did read him his rights, they said. He said when he spoke to his wife, I just told her I wanted to keep my family together. His wife said, I've got something bigger and better than this pointed to her crotch.

And then you'll never get this again. You're never going to touch me again. He that the words quote cracked him he said that everything went around in his head and that he quote saw stars oh boy oh my he said he quote went toward the guns in the dining room he asked his wife why don't you try to fix this why don't you try to save our marriage he told her i have nothing more to live for. And she said, never. I'm never coming back to you. So she's trying to make it fucking clear.

Yeah, it's over. It is over. He said that she jumped up to leave, and that's when he shot her. He was seated at the time. He told her she would never love anyone else. That's what he said. He shot her, and then he he said i want to go with you and then shot himself after he had jammed fucking scissors or wire cutters inside of her so that's the sympathetic story he's telling which it's hard to have any sympathy when there's that extra bit there at all any sympathy for

anybody when they're going to that extreme you know know what I mean? And she didn't abuse him. She said, I don't want to be with you anymore and left. That's marriage. It's done. It happens. You can't kill someone over that.

50 something percent of marriages end this way. You got to pull it the fuck together and move on with your life. Get your goddamn fucking air mattress and live with it for a while. Cut the shit. Pride is,

it's a very large pill but you got to wash it down do you gotta do it you gotta take it it's not easy it's not the end of the world i mean life goes on so you're gonna smile real soon and they're gonna be the biggest the biggest the best yeah you're gonna feel great later. Those smiles are so awesome. I said it before, I'll say it again. Nothing is better than a good divorce. It is. Nothing. It's the best. It really is the best.

It is top. When it's right, it's right. Yeah. Nah, if you need it. It's a spicy meatball. It's a spicy meatball. So two days later, October 15th, he pleads innocent to a charge of murder so he is entering a plea of not guilty innocent to uh murder obviously um he appears briefly in court he's

released to the hospital where he's still being treated for his gunshot wound his self-inflicted gunshot wound he's ordered held without bail because he's, you know, deemed batshit by the court. He's certainly a danger. I would say to at least himself, if not anybody else around. At least Donald. I wouldn't want to be Donald if that guy's on the street. They said they found the.22 caliber gun there that he, you know, had. He is found indigent, and the court was to assign him an attorney,

but he said that he may choose to hire his own attorney. I don't know how, but that's what he's saying. So January 1980 is the trial. Timeline is important here. So jury is 12 men and four women, and what they do is all of them will hear the case, and then they do a drawing to see whose votes matter. Oh, that's so much fun. Little sweepstakes. Yeah.

Oh, my vote matters. All right. Only one of them is from North Adams, so they tried to get people who were from around the county but not the town so they wouldn't know all these fucking people because he's lived there for 57 years. He moved, I think, when he was married to his first wife for a little while, but he's from there. He went to the war. Came back. Came back. Came back and all that kind of shit. So they even list in the paper the jurors in here, which is fucking wild.

Their names, what they do. Hate that. You got Walter Adams, a toolmaker, a general electric. You got a retired guy. Helen's 49 and retired. That's living the life. She's killing it. Joseph Bordeaux is vice president of Berkshire County Industrial Supply Company.

Oh, my. Timothy Briggs, a machine worker. This is a mix. We got a chief inspector for the Schweitzer division of Kimberly Clark and Lee. Retired bricklayers. What else? We got anything interesting? Nope.

GE employee. That's about We got anything interesting? Nope. GE employee. That's about it. Okay. Nothing good. So the openings here in court for the trial, the prosecutor in the opening remark says that he went to Vermont the day before the shooting asking a friend to buy him a gun that he'd use the next day to kill his wife. It's pretty clear what's going on here.

He had a gun for exactly 24 hours before he used it on his wife what are you talking about right um he said also he's made threats against his wife two days before he said he's making to make her suffer like she never has before yeah and he says that's premeditation and uh also illegal possession of the firearm that somebody else bought in another state and gave to you, which you can't do. So there's a lot going on here. Yeah, you're going to find it. Now the defense, he's got a ballsy defense, by the way. A guy named George Crane is his defense attorney.

He said that he gets in front of the jury, okay, doing his opening, walking back and forth trying to look good. And he says, you know what the shooting wasn't it wasn't accidental no wasn't accidental he said and guess what else too this guy sitting over here my client perfectly mentally competent he did it he's sane as can be and it wasn't an accident he said so there's that he goes but knowing those two facts which sound bad for us yes they do worse things i've had worse things i've had to say in court but not a good thing uh he said i will explain to you how this wow how this shooting is actually non-criminal in nature. Oh, boy. Non-criminal. In nature, yeah. Not an accident, and he's not mentally, you know, he doesn't have mental problems.

He's mentally, yeah. Shot her twice. And he's a really good shot. Because he shot her, missed, it got up, you know how flies are, landed right back down. Boom, pow, got him. So, this is crazy. So crazy so after the the openings are just bullshit anyway by the way openings are the dumbest thing in in court because they just give the jury like the wikipedia read of it look we're gonna say this guy shot this guy and then we're you know blah blah blah it's the trailer yeah but they don't have to say facts they don't

have to do anything it's to the point where the judges and they do this all the time. But the judge here cautions the jury to consider only the evidence. And they always say opening statements are not evidence. So why the fuck bother? Right. Just say those were two blowhard assholes. We let them talk in the beginning at the end. So they feel better about themselves because they did all that paperwork. You know what I mean? They need to do that. Just give them the floor. Just give them the floor. We say, you know what? We're all paying attention. Wink, wink.

So the first thing they do is a juror field trip, which I never understand why they do this. You have pictures. You don't need to see the crime scene unless like he couldn't have shot the person because he was here and the angle doesn't allow for it or something like that but this is an apartment where somebody shot his wife three times there's no reason to go stand there i don't know sometimes it's kind of cool because the the four even when i went to the ford theater in dc i see where lincoln was shot and then i see where when you see where he got transported to it looks a lot smaller yeah yeah you imagine it being grand yeah and you're like ah the president died there huh And then I see where when you see where he got transported to, it looks a lot smaller. Yeah. Yeah. You imagine it being grand.

Yeah. Yeah. A president died there. Huh? Yeah. The Watergate Hotel. Yeah. We our room was right across next door to Libby.

Yeah. It was right across from the room. The scandal room. They called it and they did tours of it. And we were like, we were going to our room. There's just a group of people in front of the door. And we're like, um, and then we saw in front of the door and we're like, um. And then we saw what was going on and we're like, oh, okay, let's go.

We want to see that shit too. Right here? Sometimes you want to see it. And with a murder scene, you kind of want to see it. Because you got to know, like, in your mind, everything's so much different. Then you see it and you're just like, oh, there's nothing important about this at all. Just an apartment. This is all stupid. Yeah. So they take 16 people there to nothing important about this at all. Just an apartment. This is all stupid.

So they take 16 people there to do that. Oh, my, in an apartment. My God. Cram them all in there. So also there's an argument over the photos here. And they said that, yeah, again, he brings up that the photo shouldn't come in because it's a non-criminal killing, i don't know how that's it's not self-defense it's i don't get it i don't get how that would be what's he doing there's only a few there's only a few reasons you can legally kill someone with a gun you know what i mean and i don't think she fell into any of those by any stretch of the imagination so the vast majority of those reasons are going to be self-defense.

Yeah. And then he said it would get to be explained over the course of the deal here. So they bring one of the cops up on the stand. This is his buddy. And he said, well, he told me, quote, the devil made me do it. She was cheating on me. So, you know, that goes devil and cheating. When the devil and cheating get together, it's rough.

that goes devil and cheating when the devil and cheating get together it's rough another patrolman said that uh he also you know heard him say that he did it and you know everybody said heard him say he did it they bring in experts to uh an expert testimony on the issue of criminal responsibility yeah the defense's expert claims that george was suffering from a major affective disorder, a major depression, and a psychotic condition at the time of the slayings here. He said the experts said that in his mind, he is not criminally responsible for what happened. Okay. He went into a meltdown here. Now, meanwhile, the state's expert said that his depression was a grief reaction, a reaction generally associated with death. And the expert was of the opinion that he was grieving over the breakup of his marriage, but that means nothing for criminal responsibility. You have to be like hallucinating things for that.

I thought she was a dragon would have been a better excuse. Literally, I thought she was the devil would have been. We can work with that. Yeah. The devil made me do it. Sorry. That's borderline. Yeah.

So he argues here is defense that the evidence as a whole demonstrates that his wife was the emotional aggressor aggressor and that her conduct shattered him and destroyed him as a husband and father. This is his criminal case. I don't feel as good about my penis as I should. This is his criminal case. He points to the fact that he was not a hoodlum or a gangster. He had no prior criminal record and that he had a good relationship with his wife prior to the last six months of their marriage.

Defense also offers evidence from friends and coworkers who noticed all the things we said before, the deterioration in his physical and emotional health after she had left and everything like that. So they're building this thing this shattered broken emotional man and they put him on the stand he testifies boy he this is just it's him sobbing for the entire time just he sobs his way through testimony always when his lawyer questions him when the fucking cross-examination comes doesn't matter oh my so testifying on his own behalf he um admitted shooting his wife listen i shot her again yeah then he sobbed and he said but i never meant to hurt my wife i never touched a hair on her head no and until i shot her three times and stuck scissors in her fucking crotch

that's before that it was all maybe cream maybe you should have messed with the hair instead of what you did you give her a noogie don't do what you did there you go hey you fucking rascal there you go now get on out of here and have fun with your new fella i hear he's bigger and better. I hear he's got a strapper on him. So he said that, yeah, he gets up there. He, Jesus fucking Christ, he told the court that the marriage had been wonderful until last spring. And then he said the Saturday before Easter, we went dancing. Mountain View Restaurant, you've all been there. You know how it goes.

She danced all but one dance with Donald Lombard. So what was I to think? You know what I mean? When we got home, I confronted her. She said she wanted a divorce. And he said on the stand, quote, she just cut me off. She told the court they had no sexual relations for months. You know, all this before she moved out.

Then he said that he had received he caught his wife receiving phone calls from someone that he thought was Lombard and he said the phone would ring once and then it would be dead. So he tried calling his wife from work and let the phone ring once before he hung up a few minutes later, the pay phone at work rang. That's how he did it. It wasn't even, it wasn't even even he calls back in a couple minutes. She calls him back on the pay phone at work.

One ring and then call the pay phone. So I don't call you. Right. Yeah. So he suspected it and went over to the pay phone. And that's when he picked up the phone and she said, hello, lover. And he went, how's it going? Yeah.

And she freaked the fuck out because she didn't expect that um so yeah that's fucking wild so um yeah he said that whole thing the hello lover thing he said that when she moved out she didn't uh she simply did she did it by simply not coming home one day from work and that was terrible she said she he got a call from his mother-in-law asking him to bring the couple's three children to their her house for the afternoon which he did and then he found out that they were gone forever so that was that yeah he said that um um quote i made more attempts to try to get her back why did she want to ruin a beautiful marriage my children the

furniture i got that girl anything she wanted we had eight thousand dollars worth of furniture so in one breath why did she have to ruin our beautiful marriage my children the furniture my god the furniture man i got a credenza you wouldn't believe and this this is crazy the kids are one thing but our furniture we could have made something of ourselves the hutch is beautiful it's great good god oh the hutch the hutch eight thousand dollars worth the furniture then he said i never meant to hurt my wife i never touched a hair on her head and this is four of these never never never never and then burst out sobbing that's what he did you stabbed what makes her a woman you son of a bitch oh man so yeah he he told the court that he bought the gun the assistance of his friend about it's all for the frightening phone calls so he was scared he

said that uh just wanted to talk to his wife that day. He wasn't wanting to shoot her. Said they argued for about 15 to 20 minutes. She's pointing at the crotch, saying all that stuff. And he says, I went blank and I shot her. So then cross-examination comes up. And during this, George says he couldn't remember getting the guns from the hutch. He could remember getting them from the hutch, but he couldn't remember firing them at all. He said that he could remember talking to from the hutch but he couldn't remember firing them at all

he said that he could remember talking to neighbors and the police but could not recall responding good um when they said she's dead yeah he doesn't remember that at all he also said that uh he said that he could remember being interviewed by state police detective but that he was at the hospital and under medication so he doesn't even know what he said. He doesn't remember at all, which very well might be true, because he had been taken to the hospital. He said that he had made threats, but he said he would have never actually hurt his wife. So to that, the prosecutor answers, do you remember putting scissors into your wife's

vagina? Yeah. His answer was this, which is not a good answer, let's just say. Yeah. Quote, it wasn't scissors. They were wire cutters. Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

Question withdrawn. I apologize. Prosecution rests. You know what? We're going to have to. The state's going to dismiss the charges. We thought it was just wire cutters, Your Honor. It's fine. Jesus Christ it was just wire cutters, Your Honor. It's fine.

Jesus Christ. They were wire cutters. That tells you exactly right there. He knew exactly what he was doing. Yeah, he knew. He remembered. I didn't remember anything until they were wire cutters. Then he said just the plastic part.

I said I'd cut her, but it was just the handle of the damn thing. It wasn't, though. That's not true. He just said that in court. It was just the handle of the damn thing. It wasn't, though. That's not true. He just said that in court. It was all the way up to the handle. Yeah. He said, I only threatened to beat her up if she left me, but I would see her every day at work and I would never hurt a hair on her head. Oh, you didn't beat her up at work?

Thank you. You're very chivalrous. That's very nice. Jesus Christ. You're a charmer, aren't you? very nice jesus christ you're a charmer aren't you so he then told the court here that he had that quite a few of the prosecution witnesses had lied that's what he's saying including his friend hurley who said that uh schnapps had threatened to strangle his wife because he had three beers and he got a little loose and i said damn it why'd i say that why'd i say that shit he uh set a drawing showing the

furniture in the also the yeah they had like diagrams where everything was he said by the way your drawing of where the furniture was was incorrect that's not how i decorate yeah he said uh in the dining room according to the drawing entered into evidence the dining room tables and chairs were against the wall. He said the table was usually in the center of the room with just enough space to walk between the table and the counter separating the dining room from the kitchen. You fucking amateurs. Against the wall

is tacky. Against the wall looks like we're just looking for room. It looks that's all. I can afford all the chairs. I had it in the center. I just did it in the center. Boom. He told the court also that in the morning the table had it in the center i just did it in the center boom he told the court also that in the morning the table had been in the center of the room uh where the drawing shows where her body was lying he said he uh asked what he said he said he asked behind the table oh that's right he got

up from the table to get the guns from the hutch and he can says that the police or quote someone had over the furniture moved over the furniture after the shooting oh okay they like well they might have moved it out of the way the paramedics to work on the body well that they have to do she was gone they do the crime scene and for a crime scene they get a perimeter they walk around it i mean it's that's what they do they got to look at it chalk it off the deal. So he also denies telling his neighbor that he was going to California to let his wife have the apartment. He said that although he had not seen his four-year-old daughter in a week on the day of the shooting, he told his neighbor that he wanted his daughter to stay at her house while he talked to his wife.

He said, I wanted her to come with the kids all the time. And then the prosecutor said but you didn't want them there on october 13th he said i didn't want the baby there in case there was an act an argument an accident an accident that's the fucking court record yeah says acc dot dot dot an argument he said an act case there was an ax, I mean an argument. That is one of the best fuck-ups on the stand of anybody who's ever been charged with murder. I didn't want the baby there to watch me murder her mom. I mean, have a chat with her.

I mean, make mud pies in the yard. That's what i meant murder mud it's very close make murder pies make murder pies i mean i met mostacholi what was i thinking so they said do you remember what you were doing with the gun and he began to weep loudly at that point and he said i don't remember no matter what you say i loved my wife more than anything in the world we know you did and we know that that's why you did this because you didn't want to lose her none of that helps sir that's the problem so they had a recess and then a lunch break so that he could calm down like let's do a recess and lunch break together so this is a little more

time for him to get his shit together um according to his lawyer, George was suffering from palpitations before the lunch break, but was feeling better afterwards. No doctor needed that day in court. I took a pill. Took a pill. During the closing here, the defense attorney asked the jury to believe that Schnapps never intended to kill his wife. Quote, just as you may believe his admission that he shot her. Believe the other. Believe him just as much when he says he didn't mean to hurt her yeah you know if you can believe one thing why not believe the other he called the situation a quote great tragedy

and quoted a passage from dante's inferno about the abandonment of hope oh go on bro there's a band there's a retired bricklayer in that jury he's like shut the fuck up fucking fancy school boy what are you talking about oh my god um he spoke about the age difference as well and he said there was a very close-knit community and he said there's an age difference it was very sensitive and there's all these gossip going around about this fucking affair that's happening and blah, blah, blah. He then says it was the ultimate destruction of George when she indicated private parts of her body and told George something had replaced him. Something bigger and better. This was like castration.

He had lost his wife, his family, and suddenly he symbolically lost his manhood. So you can murder her for that? That's apparently non-criminal. Apparently. I've never heard of that before. I don't get it. I don't know what century that would be from. Every juror should just be like, and?

Keep going. And then she whipped out a big knife out of her parka and tried to stab him. No, fuck. Okay. He said the crime was committed by George, quote, against his own interests. Okay. Poor bastard. That's his stance.

The prosecution says that, quote, this is no different than any other murder case. That's it. Hard, solid evidence. There's her. She's dead. He had the gun. Told everyone he did it not even a question of mental competence what the fuck are we talking about he bought a gun the day before and bullets

and told the guy that the bullets are too good for her and he should strangle her instead you know that's not what are we talking about here and he said the plenty of evidence of premeditation everything like that so they do the deliberations here um they have the choice of finding him innocent guilty of first degree murder or guilty of second degree murder oh first first degree is deliberation and premeditation second degree involves malice afterthought so i mean there you go he bought the gun yesterday that's what i mean today yeah that's as premeditated as it gets it's not like even like three years went by and he was like oh i bought that gun three years ago and let me go get that i mean i i statistically a gun in the house ups the chances of somebody getting shot

infinitely because there's a gun yeah because there's now a gun yeah nobody can get shot when there's no gun but yeah it's hard to accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning your imaginary gun cleaning no gun yeah or shooting yourself also that's also suicides too yeah put in and so i guess the fact that uh she being shot is is not because uh not just because it's because he had a gun you know what i mean it's he had he had that gun he had it now right that's why she's shot but also he just bought it yesterday so that's that's the reason that she got shot is because he just went and got a gun that's what i'm saying if he used a shotgun it would have been less right you know obvious so the jury deliberates for two hours

two hours and he is found guilty, but we'll see of what. Guilty of first-degree murder. Yes. He is found here. Two hours. Also, they found him guilty of an additional charge of illegal possession of a firearm. Yeah. So sentencing comes around.

What about that mutilating a body shit? Can they hit him with that, too? It's 80, so who knows if they even had anything like that. This is exceptionally cruel. Imagine. Right? I would say so, yeah. It's 80, so who knows if they even had anything like that. This is exceptionally cruel, right? I would say so, yeah. It's definitely something. It should be some desecration, some kind of something. But I guess they could say it's part of the murder act.

It's, you know, whatever. First degree murder either way. So he is sentenced to, you, sir, may fuck off. Life in prison without parole. Yeah. Good. No chance of parole and also

one year for illegal possession of the firearm. Yeah. But they'll run concurrently. Sure. You know. Yeah.

Why not? So spring of 1981 comes around a few months later because there's an automatic appeals on life sentences. The state supreme court orders a retrial because the judge did not offer the jury the option of a manslaughter verdict.

He thought he thinks that that it should have been first, second and manslaughter should have been the three. And that's a lesser sentence. But instead, he instructed him on one and two. Either way, you didn't get found guilty at two. Either way, it's one. You weren't going to get three anyway. That's what I'm saying. You couldn on one and two. Either way, you didn't get found guilty at two. Either way, it's one. You weren't going to get three anyway. That's what I'm saying. You couldn't even get two.

No. They're definitely not going to give you three. But they're saying, whatever. So they end up getting a retrial, and it's in summer of 1981. So very quickly, we'll go through this. They said that, listen, no doubt that he picked up the handgun. He put his finger around the trigger. Three bullets were discharged, and his wife died as a result of that.

That's true. He goes, that's fine. That's true. He said that what you don't know is we're going to show you his state of mind. She took the children from him and all of that and, you know, everything like that. So don't worry about it. We think he's not guilty and we think he's crazy. That's the other thing.

Prosecution gives the exact same everything as the first trial because they crushed it so they don't need to fix their fucking game there. So under it was just the, you know, the instructions that were bad and that wasn't their fault. So they see they go over they get all the evidence again this time they get some shrinks in there they get a psychiatrist uh dr robert mezzer from hollywood florida who says that george is suffering from a major psychotic depressive episode on the day of the shooting and And he said that 20 percent of adult women and eight to 10 percent of adult men in some time in their lives experience a major psychotic episode of the type that Mr. Schnapps underwent. He says, quote, it's not a rare disease, if that's what you're asking. So unhelpful. He's like, it's like he got pancreatic cancer. Just pops up and can't fix it. Yeah. Yeah. So they also bring in, you know, interviewers from the state side who say that he was suffering from no mental disorder when I interviewed him.

Sobbing isn't a mental disorder. No, it's not. You know what I mean? Like a criminally that would criminally relieve you of responsibility. he says that to say to call he said that to you know he can if you believe all he tells you you can take it whatever way you want yeah you know the it's how do you believe the patient all the time it's one of those things and for when someone's got a someone's got motivation to lie it's different so they said he was functioning reasonably well um and they said that he should be fine based this guy was like he should be fine so in the closing again our prosecutor purchased the

gun the day before abcd yeah um he then said quote the question is not is he a good murderer it's it's if he didn't do it well it doesn't mean it was if he didn't do it well it doesn't mean it wasn't planned right just because he's bad at this doesn't mean that he didn't plan it out because that's a third thing look how poorly it went down would you plan that well you're him yeah so they gave instructions on the evidence this time uh and said now there's five possible verdicts not guilty not guilty by reason of insanity, voluntary manslaughter, or first and second degree murder. So now they're covering all their bases.

Jury took less than an hour and a half, paperwork, basically. Find him guilty of first degree murder. Again. And this judge here says, you, sir, may fuck back off to Walpole Prison for the rest of your life with no parole. Wow. That's it.

First degree murder, life without parole. At Walpole. Twice in the same fucking 12-month period. Yeah. Now, November the 23rd, 1991, he is 69 years old, and he dies at lemuel shattuck hospital where he was admitted on november 12th so right before thanksgiving he lasted 10 years in prison and that was it he croaked so done because he didn't get the help he needed uh before he hurt somebody and that shit will eat you up until you fucking die absolutely yes and i also found

that in 1999 daniel lombard died as well so for donald lombard sorry not daniel donald lombard died as well old donnie donnie lobby old donnie la bomba died something tells me uh he fucked himself to death donnie la LaBamba was just exhausted. They found him laying there dehydrated and fucking just parched. He was very limp. They were like, are you all right? I'm out. When Quagmire was on Tinder for six months.

Just drive. It hurts to the light. What's going on out there? It's been a parade of vagina. I can't get it out of my head. That's Donnie. I'm sure his life was fantastic. Right?

I don't know if this is him or not, obviously, but there is a road in Hinsdale, Massachusetts, which is 35 minutes away, called George Schnapp Road. What? I don't know if that's just a coincidence it's schnapp not schnapps but still i don't know if that's a coincidence or if they named a road to honor a murderer i'm not sure that is fascinating that's why i it was it's too weird not to bring up put Put it that way. I got to mention it at least. So it's super fucking weird. Wife murderer road? Wife murderer road. Unbelievable.

Sobbing breakdown drive. If you're in a bad marriage or you're a breakup, get the fucking help you need. Seriously. Jesus Christ. We can tell you the obvious of like, it'll get better. It'll change. It feels bad. Now, tell you the obvious of like it'll get better it'll change it feels bad now that's the obvious shit but when you're feeling depressed like that that sort of shit just bounces off it doesn't matter you know bullets off of armor it doesn't matter so who cares about

what it will be what it is today it's not the help you need and if someone just hands you a bottle of valium and sends you home that's not the help you need obviously don't get that help get different help because this type of shit, this didn't need to happen. No. This is somebody this is completely somebody unraveling over a six month period and turning into a psychotic lunatic. In public.

Yeah. Before everybody's eyes. Right. Like it's, and nobody there's nothing you can do to step in with an adult though. And four children have no parents. And four children. Well, three have no parents. Four four because the other one's mom is dead he's got one and that's right no three because that fourth one wasn't hers oh no he's dead too now mom's dead in prison that mom was dead oh that's right mom died too shit you're right they're all dead four kids with no fucking parents dead yeah they're all dead god damn it so what a disaster that everybody is north adams massachusetts

quote from jimmy the worst there you go he just said it so there you go what a story it's a crazy fucking story it's just very strange and uh you know uh just it seems like it's so strange it seems like it's one of those happen these stories it scares me just it seems like it's so strange. It seems like it's one of those happen. These stories, it scares me because it feels like it could happen any day, anytime, anywhere. Absolutely. Next door to you. Absolutely. Wherever.

It's just it's universal. 1979 can still hurt us today. Can still hurt. Once the devil possesses your house, it's hard to get out of that. It really is. Starts whispering in your ear. What are you supposed to do with that certainly don't go uh tell that man that you've gotten something bigger

and better i would say because he's right on the edge well i'll tell you what if you like this show you can not tell him that but tell the world about liking the show get on whatever app you're listening on and platform whatever the fuck and give us five stars because it really helps us out a lot we don't know why but it helps drive us up the charts so help your boys out right here also in case you don't know every friday now friday nights we are going to be releasing a short small town murder episode not a shorter version of our long show or anything like that here's your breeze through no no no no this is a totally these are totally separate stories stand alone they're the crazy stories that are so fucking crazy that they've been i had a just a stockpile of these stories where i'm like oh my god i wish

there was more to this story in terms of backstory to really flesh it out for an episode because holy shit, the craziest thing happened. So we decided let's have a platform for those stories that are just so insane. They need to be told. And that's what we're going to be doing every Friday. Check that out. And it's out right now. And last week's is out and next week's is coming tomorrow. So enjoy those.

Head over to shut up and give me murder.com as well. Get all your merchandise new shirts up and bags and cups and mugs and fucking water things all damn it yeah skateboards we have it all damn it check that's true he laughs when we have skateboards i own them so i go over there also get your tickets not only to the live shows which are coming up in may we have detroit and uh cincinnati which they're sold out anyway you can't get tickets to those so never mind those um i think philly then ndc are also the next two months the shows are sold out your ass out the only place you can see us if you don't already have tickets in the next few months is going to be may the 5th

yes when we do our virtual live show cinco Cinco de Mayo, no sellout there. No matter how many people buy tickets, you're all going to see the same show and have the same great seats in your own home. We don't care. In your apartment, in your office, you can go to a fucking, I don't care where you go, to be honest with you. Are you angry that you can't get us on Netflix, Hulu, or some other streaming service? Put us on your TV on your own. And then watch us in a public bathroom. We don't care.

That's what we're saying. Wherever you want to watch it. It's up to you. Wherever you're comfortable. Mirror us on a bar TV. That would be amazing. Do it up. Check it out.

We'll be there. It's shutupandgivememurder.com. Get your tickets. We cannot wait to see you there. I don't know if they're for sale right this minute. They should be any second now. If they're not, right this minute. They should be any second now. If they're not, though,

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or at Small Town Murder on Instagram to get you all the latest and greatest and know what the hell's going on. Also, you definitely want Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all the good stuff. More good stuff, we should say here. For $5 or above, you're a king or a queen or whatever.

You get everything, damn it. You can cherry pick not just the small town murder bonuses also the crime and sports bonuses which cross over pretty good they're not just it's not like some story about an athlete most of the time it's like death destruction mayhem weirdness this week no different you get both shows and we are going to give you for crime and sports the time when tiger woods got attacked by his wife with a golf club and what he did to cause that situation because that really was his fault he was that was the peak that was pretty gross for the public into the life of nobody we didn't know all the shit he was up to until that moment the most upstanding guy with this beautiful yeah fucking calendar

looking wife and all this the next thing you know he's got like a black guy and a broken windshield and she's got a golf club in her hand you're like what happened and it's well what happened is crashed into a fire hydrant in a tree oh my yeah exactly is he drunk and it hasn't stopped since it's been weird since we'll talk about that that whole incident and what happened there and then for small town murder it's the prisoner dating game is back again. Oh, I can hear music playing. This is amazing. Prisoner dating game.

We're so excited. Or a site to do the same thing. I line up. It's the all felon edition, all violent felon edition, I should say. So you're not going to get one and be like, Oh,

well they did some drugs. That's boring. No, no. These people are going to be a disaster. And what we're going to do, I'm going to get one and be like, oh, well, they did some drugs. That's boring. No, no. These people are going to be a disaster. And what we're going to do, I'm going to pick four ladies, four gentlemen, and I'm going to lay them out before Jimmy. I'm going to read Jimmy their pitch on their dating websites, on the prison sites.

Read what the pitch is. And Jimmy based nothing, based on nothing but those pitches is going to pick himself a lady and a gentleman. And then afterwards, he's going to find out a who they are what they look like things like that but more importantly what the fuck they did to belong in there that's going to be a lot of fun i love check that out oh it's the best show we have i swear to god patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of that we do those about twice a year and they're the best they're the most fun so we can't wait do that come see us and blah blah blah everything like that oh and you're gonna get a

shout out that's right when when are you gonna get a shout out right fucking now is when you're gonna get a shout out uh speaking of that jimmy hit me with the list of the names of people who would never ever ever ever kill us because we pointed to our crotches and said they couldn't have it. Hit me with them now. These people might, James. They might, actually, yeah. Thank you for always supporting the show. You know, helping a couple of guys who started out in our shitty apartment with bad microphones. And we've come a long way.

We had nothing. Thank you. We had nothing. All from you guys. We had nothing but pains in the ass wives. Nothing but wives who hated us and we didn't have sex with, so it was terrible. Now we're much happier, so thank you for that. You've changed our entire lives.

We cannot thank you enough. If you want to find us, very easy to do it. Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com, and there's links to our social media, everything like that. You can just Google Small Town Murder Podcast. Here we are. That's us. Only us, everything like that. You can just Google Small Town Murder Podcast. So here we are. That's us. Only us.

So do that. Keep coming back, goddammit, week after week after week. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Bye. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you

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