Small Town Murder - #283 - STM Express - Frying The Gambler - Hammond, Indiana

Episode Date: May 19, 2022

This week, in Hammond, Indiana, a whole family agrees that Dad is a problem,, and they need to do something about it. With the help of the felon son in law, they hatch several plans, and even attempt to carry them out, with each being more ridiculous, and prone to failure. Finally, while trying their latest plot, they just decide to go all in, and attack him, in the most brutal way imaginable. Let's just say that his cause of death is one that is rarely given out. From there, it turns into even more of a mess, with penalties ranging from very little punishment, to death, in the electric chair!! It's one for the ages!! Along the way, we find out that if many clowns die in a field... no one cares, that your 60 year old pharmacy worker mother may fold under interrogation, and that you should always kill someone, BEFORE removing their head!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to Small Town Murder Express. Yay!

Yay and choo-choo. Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed and choo-choo. All aboard the murder train, everyone. Here we go. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Pulling away from the station. Thank you so much for joining us on another edition of Small Town Murder Express. We have an insane episode.

This episode, we did this story very quickly before we start. We did this story for a virtual live show months ago. And basically, there's a lot more when you see the virtual live show. You're going to get all the odds and ends. But the core of this story is so insane that it needs to be told on a grander scale. The people who paid for the virtual live show, obviously, they got a little more story. But this is one of the craziest things we've ever talked about or done. It is like, it's Mr. Magoo.

It's crazy. We'll talk about it. It's insanity. Quickly, before we get to that, just want to say, obviously, thank you for all that you do for us. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com is where you get all your tickets for live shows merchandise everything like that and if you want even more crime and sports and small town murder you can get that on patreon patreon.com slash crime and sports anybody five dollars or above you get access to everything that we put out crime and sports bonus

small town murder bonus and this week is no different. Very quickly, we have for crime and sports, which of course you get, we have this NASCAR driver, not a NASCAR driver. He showed up at a race, faked his qualifications, crashed like five times, and then disappeared. No one ever heard from him again. Until? Until about a month ago, he came out and was like, all right, I'll tell the story after 40 years. And it's the craziest story you ever want to hear. And then for small town murders bonus, we are going to talk about this ties into a couple of episodes we've done recently. When people blame pop culture for murder, basically, whether it's he listened to that song and then killed his friend.

So that must mean the song made him kill his friend or or video games or movies or any time that's blamed for stuff. So we'll talk about those. There's a bunch of those cases. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you get all of that. And we'll give you a shout-out on the main show there on Thursday. So that said, let's get into this, Jimmy. All right. Let's do it.

And let's clear the lungs, I believe, and sit back and shout, Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, Jimmy. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? What do you say? Terrific. Let's go.

We're going to Indiana today, to Hammond, Indiana, which is not really a small town. It's more like a small city, like a very small city in terms of cities. But it's shrinking rapidly, number one. And at the same time, what goes on here was on the outskirts of town. And in addition to that, it is just panhandle from top to bottom. So it fits into what we're doing here. Like Daryl Hammond? That Hammond?

Exactly, like Daryl Hammond, except not exactly like daryl hammond except not as good at impressions uh indiana not as fantastic not as great as them unless they're pretending to be iowa because it all looks the same pretty much this is in northwestern indiana it's about 30 minutes outside of chicago so it's technically a suburb of chicago here. We'll go over two seconds of history because the story's wild. History, very quickly. June 22, 1918, something wonderful happened there. It's called the Hammond Circus Trainwreck.

Oh. Wonderful. About 5.5 miles east of the city, killing 86 people, injuring 127. Dead clowns littering the landscape jimmy i just imagine it's a colorful it looks like a civil war battlefield but with color everywhere just like rain green and neon and orange and shit and weird colored hair everywhere you look over it they're smoldering and then you just hear, like a sad mush.

The train came off the tracks? I don't know what happened. There was a crash. A drunk driver? Two trains on the track. I don't know what happened, but I don't care because I think it's a lot of clowns died. Any non-clowns, obviously, that's not good, and I feel bad for them. But any clowns that were killed in this deserved it, and I feel like they're-

Some mistreated animals, though. That's sad. That's sad. We don't bad for them but any clowns that were killed in this deserved it and i feel like they're mistreated animals though that's sad that's sad we don't know if there was any animals this might have just been the people trains yeah i've read nothing about injured animals so i'm hoping it's just 86 clowns that's what i'm hoping the bears on a unicycle no this was like a clown meeting that was going to like central office or something. 100% clowns. All clowns. Dead clowns. I mean, 86 clowns littering the landscape. Heading to corporate.

One of them pinched somebody's ass and we all got to talk about it. Clown corporate. Yeah, you got to do that. This week's course is how close do you get to the kids when you're making balloon animals? It's a very, very fine line, I feel like, for clowns. So Hammond has gone into decline a lot from the 70s and 80s. In 1980, there was 94,000 people. In 2000, there was 83,000 people.

And now there's about 75,000 people. It just keeps kind of declining over the years. Thinning out. Thinning out here. I'll give you one review of the town, and then we'll get right to the murder quickly. This is a one-star review, and there was five-star reviews here and there, but this is pretty funny, so I have to read it.

One star. Living in Hammond has been a really bad experience, in my opinion. Well, I mean, your opinion's the only one that counts when it's your life, you guys. It's the one that matters, yeah. I'm not sure why it's considered a, quote, suburb when it's anything but. You have ignorant people outside all hours of the night,

blasting music from their cars, having parties, and just not caring about their neighbors and how they would feel. I feel unsafe every day in Hammond, and I can't even walk down the street without some pervert in a car slowing down to try to talk to me and this is from a guy named frank so it's really tough in hammond i mean they're they'll go after you i don't know who it's like that ass on you frank hey frank look at you yeah yeah you know what you're doing with that hairy ass crack sticking out the back of your pants come on frank give Frank. Give me a piece of that, Frank.

Some flomping wranglers, Frank. It's a hot day, Frank. Hop in. It's nice and cool in here. Come on. So, yeah, some pervert in a car. It's noisy, especially when it's the summer, because kids want to stay out all day screaming and making so much noise that you can't focus on the task that you're doing

they promote primal screams there is that what it is yeah the kids out there letting it all out it's a screaming hour you send your kids outside to scream in hammond it's a tradition there so that's what's going on in hammond at this moment that is a very fun review all the ignorant people out here with their cars anybody any review that has the word perverts in it i have to i have to read it that's going to be ignorant people perverts and screaming children screaming children and poor frank so 75 000 people like we said that said let's get into this murder all right we go back to 1983 when it was in decline but a few more people were here and let's let's let's introduce to a family and uh

if i remember you had you remember none of this story i i assume because you drank a lot that night i don't know where hammond is no you drank a lot that you saw pictures of it and everything that night and you don't remember shit. I know. I don't remember ignorant people. Nope. Perverts and everything else. So this is this murder. We got to go back to 1983.

Like we said, here's the family. First, Paul Camati, Sr. We'll talk about Camati. K-O-M-Y-A-T-T-I. Camati. Wow. OK. That's a fun name.

It's a fun one. Senior. All right. So obviously there's a fun name. It's a fun one. Senior. All right. So obviously there's a junior lurking in the wilderness somewhere. Little Pauly's out there. Little Pauly. He's 65 years old in 1983. Okay.

He's a retired construction worker. Oh. And he's also a huge alcoholic. All right. Very strict, domineering father and husband. Really. I know the type yeah he's a alcoholic who who likes to keep a tight ship in the house yeah in uh february in 83 here here is february 1983 i'll give you an overview of the home we have uh his wife rosemary so that's paul and rosemary their son paul Paul Jr., obviously. He's 17.

Their grandson, Jason, is also there. And Jason's mother, Marianne, who is Paul Sr.'s daughter, but not Rosemary's daughter, I believe. Okay. Okay. Rosemary's stepdaughter. Stepdaughter in the house with their baby. Got it. With the baby, then their kid, Paul Jr. They're all there okay everybody here everybody's it's all full house over there

so um paul senior because of the full house or because he's an alcoholic spends most of his time at the local bar that's oh yeah i would too all there he plays pool and darts and all that shit he's retired he drinks beers with the fellas and plays pool and darts and all that shit he's retired he drinks beers with the fellas and plays pool and darts which would be fine the dream if you didn't come home and you know beat the whole beat the shit out of the family and scare the hell out of everybody so also he's also a heavy smoker as well which is great when you're 65 and an alcoholic that's very healthy so good for you paul he's living the life he's living the life he wants to leave we'll put it that way it's not a good life but it's no definitely what he's living a very 1983 retired

life yeah he's living like one of the dock workers on the wire is what he's living like this isn't a good way to live so everybody uh they had moved into this home when the kids were little and uh you know they've lived here for a while now 15 years or so paul always miserable he's always miserable like because i mean he's an alcoholic which isn't helping and uh a miserable guy paul jr said at one point he could never even remember his dad laughing or smiling ever so fun fun guy really. Never laugh, never smile. Really? Least demonstrative person going, apparently.

He'll yell at you and beat the shit out of you, but if you tell a good joke, you're not getting a fucking thing out of him, which is tough. What the fuck? He's a tough crowd, Paul Sr. Do we know what he did for work? Paul Sr.'s a retired construction worker. Construction, okay. His body probably hurts, too. If you did construction until you're 60, that hurts. Nothing's funny anymore.

Nothing's funny anymore, yeah. Plus, I mean, maybe he has a very specific, you've been on a construction site, it's a very specific sense of humor. And I feel like maybe that's his sense of humor, and he's like, I didn't hear anything. I heard, I didn't hear a racial slur or anything about uh like a dick in there i'm not laughing at that basically i heard nothing about uh and i smacked the bitch i heard nothing nothing about that nothing derisive of mexicans i really i feel like that's not a good joke if you threw in something about mexicans i could have laughed at i could have laughed with you but otherwise it's not gonna work you know i get it a jewish guy a russian and a mexican i get i get listen my back hurts never mind all right yeah i mean he's basically archie bunker but an alcoholic at

the same time so he also has emphysema at this moment and he still smokes like a fucking chimney also just had heart surgery recently as well oh it's all going great that doesn't stop him at all just drinking and smoking and playing pool and doesn't give a shit so doesn't care start drinks all day by the way this isn't like every night he sloshed booze with breakfast oh boy oh it's it's yeah what goes yeah what do you drink with your breakfast gray goose and grits man it's, yeah. What goes, yeah. What do you drink with your breakfast? Grey Goose and Grits, man. It's Grits and Goose is what he's drinking.

It's not good. Instead of water. Honey eggs and a Coors Heavy. He doesn't use water. He just uses vodka. He's like, that'll do. Jesus Christ. Yeah, every day is White Lady Brunch for this guy.

Every day of the week Mimosas Mimosas at 530 Give me a mimosa That's what I want And some hollandaise sauce Because that won't make me sick Booze and hollandaise sauce in the morning is perfect

It's room temperature Excellent That's perfect eggs benny eggs benny and fucking mimosas jesus yeah he's doing it early 5 30 five biscuits and gravy and a fucking white russian as the sun comes up i think a white russian would go with biscuits but biscuits and gravy that white gravy no well that white gravy i'm thinking it's like a white wine with fish. You know what I mean? I feel like the colors match up at least, so it would go that much.

No. What, oatmeal, you think, then? What do we put? Let's put together a menu, Jimmy. Let's talk about this. What are we doing? Fair hard booze and breakfast? Let's get into this.

What are we talking about here? What's a Jack and Coke and ham and eggs? Is that what it is? What's get into this what are we talking about here what's the jack and coke and ham and eggs what's wrong with this i feel like we got something i feel like we really got something here real captain and coke and lucky charms because the mimosa is just going part way a mimosa is just like we're gonna drink in the morning wink but if there's some orange juice in it so don't fuck that we're gonna lean into in the morning, wink, but there's some orange juice in it, so don't. Fuck that. We're going to lean into it hard and be like, get shit-faced and eat breakfast. That's going to be our slogan.

Yeah, all that is is putting bubbles in your orange juice on mimosa. Yeah, who cares? If we're really going to do it, let's fucking do it. Shots of tequila with this fucking. That's it, man. I'm telling you. Shots of tequila with my fucking grand slam hard boiled eggs and boiler makers everybody line them up line them up instead of dropping a shot into that beer

drop an egg into it let's go old-fashioned and hash brown that's what oh god i'm gonna be sick well our restaurant is gonna do well i think anyway i really do you don't have to serve the food i feel like we're not going to serve it but we can open it i feel like it's going to do great hell yeah we're going to be standing there with our arms crossed for a while i think but that's right everybody we're going to need bouncers corned beef hash and a gin and tonic come on through it'd be good plus it'll be the only breakfast joint that needs bouncers that's the other thing most breakfast joints you don't really need we have some angry people oh fist fights at sunrise

you motherfucker how hey calm down, everybody. That's funny. I'd love to see it. It's going to be good. This fight's in a Denny's. Yeah. See, that's extra. That's extra flavor and texture. I feel like we got this.

I like your gin and tonic, but when you wash your blood down from your bleeding mouth. You're going to want that. From table four. You're going to want that way from table four you're gonna want that uh that cold bloody mary to put against your swollen lip she got in a fight over there with uh people in the yeah in table four so uh bloody mary's are hard that's that's straight i mean that's vodka that's a that's a heavy drink for 8 a.m and i've done that a lot so again see why not it's got tomato juice in it. It's not.

It's fun. If there's juice in it, that means it's okay to have before noon. That's the general rule, which I don't get. Sometimes I'll go to these places, and it tastes like straight gasoline. I'm like, can you put more tomato, please? A little more. At least let's not taste the vodka. This is crazy.

Hey, look, we have an understanding here. I'm not an alcoholic if this tastes like tomato juice understand that's how this works if i don't taste tomato juice that means i have a problem otherwise i can rationalize it so help me do you see me visibly shaking more tomato then if i'm shaking i get it i need the octane but right now no help me help myself, please. I've just got kids with me. I'm trying to tolerate this shit.

Oh, my God. So Paul Sr., he'd get mean then when he'd be drinking. So he'd be mean from the morning because he's drinking from the morning. Sure. Rosemary, his wife, on the other hand, is known as very timid and very kind to everybody and nothing like Paul, basically. Nothing like him at all. She's had her spirit broken over the years. Well, yeah, that's what I mean.

Whatever the culmination of this is, that's where we are. That's where we stand in 1983. Paul Jr. is a senior at Morton High School. He's got good grades, plays on the football team. Oh, yeah. He's doing real well. He plans on going into the Air Force after graduation. He's very excited here. team oh yeah he's doing real well he plans on going into the air force after graduation he's

very excited here so um paul jr though said that his father would just beat the living shit out of him everybody said that like when he was little at one point his father beat him so badly that he developed a stutter he knocked a stutter into it yeah he beat the yeah he beat the speech out of him which is like a stevie what happened to stevie in. Yeah, he beat the speech out of him, which is like a Stevie. What happened to Stevie in the documentary? Yeah, he was fine. He beat a speech impediment into him. That's pretty rough. He did great, and then Dad hit him, and he hit him again.

Maybe he'll start talking straight. It's like a cartoon. Maybe it's like Looney Tunes. Cousin Eddie's daughter. Yeah, yeah, Cousin Eddie's daughter. His eyes were crossed. Yeah, that was great. yeah yeah cousin eddie's eyes were crossed yeah that was great so his they would end up they'd take him and run away to her sister's house rosemary and then they'd go run away there

but paul jr would come after them and uh you know to beat them in a different venue to come and get them and bring them back oh yeah paul jr said quote there were occasions where he would stick a gun next to my head and he'd say he'd blow my head off if she didn't come home so loving so she yeah put it on the kid too as the onus on him to get mother to come back home also chased paul down the street at one point waving a gun around threatening to shoot him in the back and neighbor saw this as well oh just them again what's going on outside oh it's just that that drunk neighbor he's just chasing his son down the street waving a gun around threatening to

shoot him in the back as he runs no big deal back to the football game so um also obviously rosemary would get beat up a lot um yeah he would the police would get called all the time and um basically they would tell him you know it was back in the day and they would tell him sir you have to stop hitting your wife now yeah you know that was it we're gonna leave now but you know don't make us come back here and uh at one point paul jr said he actually got arrested because he started trying to attack the officers at that point, too. Paul Sr. freaked out and started to attack them. And they were like, now that's a hit your wife all you want.

But this is a bridge too far. You can't take a swing at me. Don't make me hurt. No. Paul Jr. said back then there was no recognition of domestic violence being a crime. It was just, you know, oh, come on now. Don't disturb your neighbors with your fighting. That was kind of what the cops did. That's wild so that's so unbelievable it's crazy i mean

we're we're gonna be at a time very soon where uh remember when they didn't know what the cause of sid's was you know because we're because they just figured that out yeah we're gonna be in that place someday soon yes but yeah remember that wow that's crazy just died and they had no clue why just dropped dead in the crib and we just took a minute and everyone shrugged their shoulders and went well that's what happens that was the whole time a ton of people a ton of people have tagged us in this because we did an episode where a athlete's brother died of SIDS or something and we said it's the craziest thing because it's old and pollinates right because it was his it was it his kid whatever brother I think it was his kid? His brother, I think.

It was just the craziest thing because we said we both had kids and we both watched them breathe because we were scared of it because it's like, they supposed to be alive? Yes. Are they? No. Well, those are the symptoms. Supposed to be and not. That's it. That's it.

We can't live with that. That's nuts. So, Marianne, the daughter who has the young son who lives there she left home at 18 not surprisingly she got the hell out of there as soon as she could um she ended up marrying a guy named william van diver and uh he is a mess he's a sixth of seven kids which is fine but he's a total juvenile delinquent he got he watched his crime get like escalate. He got busted for stealing hubcaps and cigarettes when he was little.

Then it moved on to cars. And then he ended up doing two years in prison for robbery as well. Oh, boy. So, yeah, it's a lot. Paul Sr., by the way, hates Billy Van Diver. Hates him. He hates everybody, but really hates him. Only I beat my family, not you. Billy Van Diver hates him. He hates everybody, but really hates him. Yeah. You don't.

I only I beat my family. Not you. So stuff to get tough to get on his good side. But he's certainly not on it. Not on it at all. So Jason, the young son of Marianne, had been staying with the family here because Marianne and Bill were at one point out of money and on the run from the Chicago police. So they swung by drop the kid off you you know when you're on the run from the cops it's difficult remember adventures and babysitting it's hard to haul kids along while you got things going on you know yeah it's a lot

even if they got a thor helmet yeah that's it both of them marianne and billy have been getting arrested all the time since like you know know, the last three, four years. Jesus. Billy recently had charges of aggravated assault. He served time in prison. She's been arrested for possession of a controlled substance, theft, prostitution, you name it. I mean, they just that's the daughter. That's the daughter.

Yeah. They just went to Chicago and were, you know, really into drugs and living on just figuring out how to get by yeah so it's good that the kid is living with the kamiatis even this is scarily enough this is a better environment with an alcoholic who drinks for breakfast and then yells and beats on everybody at least at least he knows what's going to happen tomorrow at least they're not on the run from the police currently yeah which is helpful. Obviously terrible in all regard. So it's a goddamn mess. Also, Billy Van Diver, while serving a Missouri prison term for theft, he was convicted at the same time of charges stemming from a sodomy attack on a fellow inmate.

So he's also a prison rapist as well, Billy. So very nice. Mary Annne she didn't have money she didn't have the best role model i was gonna say she chose a guy just like dad there you go you wanted uh that's what happens and up the ante a little bit too with the prison right there a little more yeah a little more like dad than she had bargained for this is horrible uh later he was sentenced to 18 months in prison for the shooting of an acquaintance during an argument. So he's a bad guy. He's a bad guy. Billy Van Diver.

Let's just say that. Very, very bad. So anyway, the Van Divers were on the run. The kid was there. Marianne ended up living sort of with them sort of not with them billy's kind of around on the run the kid lives with them so at one point paul senior had given his daughter marianne and billy their canned food to fatten up the young boy um apparently because he was so thin to fatten him up a little bit he's too thin because they spend their money on drugs and not food

for the child apparently the only person in the world that Paul Sr. was nice to was little Jason doted on him loved him didn't yell at him didn't abuse him he was this could do no wrong sun rose and set with him

but everybody else can go fuck themselves in the whole world I mean if there's anybody in the household that i want him to be like that with it's definitely that kid absolutely or his wife jesus yeah so they um they act they were they were he was really mad paul senior was at his daughter and son-in-law because when they had fled their apartment in chicago to go on the run he went to go get some of their stuff and found all the cans stacked in the pantry unopened so they weren't even feeding the kid they were just leaving the shit up there so um yeah it's it's it's interesting uh one person who ended up staying there for a little while said uh at his house said yeah he was a little strict about paul senior but

i would have to say it was a happy home hell if anyone was having family family arguments around here it was me so yeah i don't want to be in that house at all i don't want to be anywhere happy home this is imagine what that person's house is like originally so yeah um when marianne and billy leave the house in early february of 83 she wants to take her son but paul senior won't let her like you you're on the run from the cops you're not taking the kid leave the kid here um so then mid-february comes around and paul jr and marianne are discussing what a dick their dad is yeah huge? I mean, this guy's a huge asshole. He won't let you have your kid. It's your kid.

You know, he beat a stutter into me like, we don't like him. This is crazy. Yeah. Dad's a jerk. Yeah. I don't like him at all. So they said, well, I mean, we could kill him, right? Yeah.

So then they said, I mean, ha ha. And then they were like, I mean, we could kill him right yeah so then they said i mean ha ha and then they were like i mean we could kill him oh boy i mean a lot of people hate him i mean this could be like a you know who knows who killed him type of thing that's a that's a far leap but okay it's a leap i would say um yeah so they talk about it a little bit and then they say you know if we're gonna do this if we're gonna seriously talk about this i mean obviously, and then they say, you know, if we're going to do this, if we're going to seriously talk about this, I mean, obviously, you know, we're going to end up getting caught if we don't have all our bases covered. We need our I's dotted, our T's crossed. Let's get mom involved in this. What do you say?

Let's see if mom wants in. He beats the shit out of her. She's got to be upset. out of her he she she's got to be upset so uh they go to rosemary and they say listen rosemary um mom um ma we're really thinking about killing dad we're gonna think about yeah we're gonna kill dad how do you feel about that and she said that uh well you know i don't object to the idea out of out of hand i mean we're not gonna just jump to conclusions here. I mean, I'm not going to dismiss anything, you know, right off the bat. So she said, but if you're going to do it, please do me this one favor. Do me this one favor. Do me a solid. Do it away from the house so I don't have to clean it up, please. Not make sure he doesn't suffer. Shoot him in the head in his

sleep. Well, none of that stuff. Just please not in the house so if you can if there's didn't even if there's brain on the wall who's cleaning that rosemary that's right no one else is cleaning it paul's gonna say he has football practice you're gonna run off somewhere and then i got the brains on the wall again not i don't think so this is they didn't even tell her it's gonna be messy messy. She's just like dead people. Yeah. I don't want any part of this, please. So Bill returns to Hammond, Billy, the shithead son in law. Yeah. And Marianne approaches.

If anyone's going to be in on a murder plot, it's Billy Van Diver. It's going to be a prison rapist who shot his friend one time, I would say. Let's save this for Billy. It's his favorite. Yeah. He's candidate one right here. I mean, if you're going through all your candidates of who could be in on a murder, Billy's a one, I would say he's the guy. So they say about, you know, we're going to do that.

Marianne at this point moves out of the his the Paul Sr.'s house and Rosemary's house to move into a girlfriend's house with her husband. But leaves Jason behind because Billy's not allowed at the house because Paul Sr.'s house and Rosemary's house to move into a girlfriend's house with her husband, but leaves Jason behind. Okay. Because Billy's not allowed at the house because Paul Sr. will shoot him. Of course not, because he's a piece of shit. He's a piece of shit. He's nice to his grandson, and he's good radar on a son-in-law that sucks. Those are the only good things about him.

So far, this is positive qualities. Paul Sr. Positive qualities. Paul Sr. So from February until about mid-March, conversations rage about various plots to kill Paul Sr. Weeks and weeks they're sitting around. Yeah, ideas. We've got to go through ideas.

So here we go. Let's go through the list of ideas. These are amazing. Okay. This is awesome. Idea number one. First draft. First draft. Okay.

This is super easy here. He goes to this bar all the time. Let's just have it so one of these days he walks out of the bar late at night and looks like a robbery. Somebody shoots him. He's dead outside the bar. That happens all the time. People get robbed on the street. Solid plan.

Done and done, right? But then they're like, well, who are we going to get to shoot him? We don't want to do it out in the open like that. That's risky. What if somebody walks out of the tavern as I'm pulling the trigger? And, you know, that's not good. They've seen me. Yeah.

And then they're like, if we hire somebody, then that's another person that's involved in this. So maybe that's not. Witnesses and loose ends. Yeah. Billy actually was the guy who nixed this idea and was like, this is why they brought him in on this. He's got the criminal mind to say, I think we're going to get caught if we do that. Yeah, if you want investment opportunities,

you call in an investment banker. So if you want a murder done, you call in a goddamn murderer. You call in a roofer to fix your pipes is what's going on here. That's what's going on. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts.

I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor.

I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the

Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one

and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast podcast listen on max or wherever you get your podcasts yeah idea number two all right here we go now paul senior takes numerous medications for i mean he's got emphysema heart disease he's got all sorts of problems the uh first thing they end up actually going to follow through with is they're going to try to poison him with medication type of deal.

So Rosemary, they enlist her to do this. She purchases some nitroglycerin from the pharmacy where she works. She works in a pharmacy, and she gives it to Paul along with the medication. Oh, see there? Okay, got it. Yeah, so along with the medication. So that'll get his Okay, got it. Yeah, so along with the medication. So that'll get his heart going. So that's an attempt.

That's an attempt. She's doing it. Yeah, no, that's a first attempt, okay? Yeah, they crushed up the nitroglycerin outside of a local Dairy Queen. Imagine these two. It was Billy and Paul Jr. sitting outside a local Dairy Queen crushing up nitroglycerin tablets there. And Billy and Paul substituted nitroglycerin for his medication in hopes of causing a heart attack. They sat there, fingers crossed, going, eh, anything?

The next day, Rosemary came and said, no go. She didn't die. He said he had nausea. He was a little dizzy. He threw up once, and he had some headaches. But't die. He said he had nausea. He was a little dizzy. He threw up once, and he had some headaches, but no die. I mean, if you want a guy with emphysema and heart problems to die, you could just wait. Wait a minute. Just wait a little while.

Give it some time. But he's one of these old crusty bastards that just, he's going to carry on. He's going to live to be 90, this guy guy just beating everybody up with his cane you know angry for the next 25 years yeah sitting in his good chair they've had enough but at some point too if you keep trying and someone you can't pull off a murder maybe you go maybe it's not meant to be maybe you can't do this maybe i'm not good at this you know and you know maybe we just did enough damage internally that we just sped the clock up and now we wait we don't do this. Maybe I'm not good at this. And maybe we just did enough damage internally that we just sped the clock up. Now we wait it out. Maybe we don't have to wait as long.

Now we wait. So idea number three. Here we go. So the prescription for nitroglycerin didn't work. But here they said, what if we substitute rat poison for his medication? That'll certainly do it. That should work. That seems better. what if we substitute rat poison for his medication that'll certainly do it yeah that seems better so one of them either bill or uh billy or paul jr purchases the rat poison

and paul uh brings the medication to bill who substituted it with the poison because it's the pills i think that you can pull apart and put different powders in that's what they're doing so puts rat poison in there and gives it to Paul to give to Rosemary. So Rosemary, they wait a couple days. Everybody waits and waits for Rosemary's reports of imminent death here. Sure. Rosemary then calls Miriam a couple days later and said, yeah, he's been sick. But, you know.

Marianne, you mean? Yeah. Marianne. Rosemary calls Marianne, the daughter. And they're like're like i mean i've been giving him the rat poison and uh he's sick and stuff but he's not dying i don't know what's doing great this is how toxic this man is right he's already he's like rasputin like he's got such a level built up of just toxicity in his body you give him poison he doesn't die he's a fucking mess this guy you can't make toxic waste worse no no not at all not at all so they keep they keep trying to do it so then he says i'm gonna if i don't feel better tomorrow i'm gonna go to the doctor so that's when rosemary discontinues the rat poison and says we don't want the doctor to

figure it out and then then that's it. And then he's going to be aware of this and he's going to kill all of us. So not good. Right. So idea number four comes along. I'm impressed that they could get the pills back together because I've had them like in my pocket and they separate and I want to put them back together. And there's always like a wrinkle in a scene there.

It's always obvious that you put it back together. You're also not a junkie. Excellent point. will sit there they'll do it junkies will put if it's something to do with drugs or something yeah it's gonna they'll make it work trust me make it match up yeah we've all seen people with drugs figure it out and it's remember dope sick love when the guy had like a bent needle he's like i'll make it work and he's i'll get it they'll figure it out he's got he's got a metal tube that's literally pinched and he still got i'll make it work and he's i'll get it they'll figure it out he's got he's got a metal tube that's literally pinched and he's still got drugs he figured it out man that's what i mean where there's a will there's a way yeah so yeah they they do that so now they need

another idea okay next idea all right um bill and marianne bought a syringe okay yeah billy and marianne bring in a syringe and a vial of what's called in the court documents liquid poison so whatever the fuck that is whatever it could be anything liquid poison just sounds so it's all poisonous yeah it's where do you get that where do you catch where do you keep your liquid poison which shelf is that no i know there's liquid smoke and liquid nails and uh liquid paper but i'm looking for the liquid poison do you have that i understand that i've heard of that yeah liquid nails liquid paper i got all that shit white out all that checks out i'm looking on that shelf i don't see any liquid poison if you know the liquid i'm on the liquid eye you only got three products nothing there's a fourth i promise fuck it i guess i

don't know never mind liquid poison call this a walgreens you roll your eyes and walk out how dare you dare you call this a cvs this is liquid i'm pretty naked i'm not seeing any liquid poison so they deliver this syringe in the vial to rosemary at the pharmacy and they told her one thing they're good at they know how to load a syringe so they show her yeah how to do it and uh the next day rosemary said that she told marianne uh i put the poison in his coffee but nothing happened he just drank it and then he went out this is shitty liquid poison it really is i mean if you can if anything this ad is uh for this show is an ad for booze yeah drink enough booze and nothing kills you're impervious to this shit yeah they just squirted some in there like it was fucking sweetener.

Like you had sweet and low or some shit in there. Liquid poison and sweet and low. Wow. I like it poisoning and sweet. You know, just like. Anyway. One poison, two sugars, please. Two sugars, one poison.

Thank you. Delicious. Gives my skin a nice glow i like it so idea number five you wouldn't you give up by now three strikes now it's like this three strikes just wait yeah just wait three we're not everyone we're not murderers right now not not at a plan not to get away with it in this group no even the Even the even the prison rapist is a murderer. So he could kill him. But getting away with it. This is a plan to get away with it.

If you just wanted him dead he'll go stab him in the throat. No problem. But then what. Rape his rape his throat hole. He'll have no problem with that. Billy's down. So idea number five is Rosemary purchases more nitroglycerin. They're back to nitroglycerin.

Back to square one. I picture a big whiteboard like an Always Sunny with terrible ideas on it and stuff crossed out. And then there's an arrow going back to idea one like we'll go back to nitro. We're revisiting nitroglycerin today. Charlie probably would have had better ideas. We could feed him a whole bunch of cheese. That makes sick that makes me sick i mean he's got heart problems cheese will mess him up right what if we what if we tickle him to death sometimes i can't breathe when we have tickle fights maybe it'll get him we could scare him just jump out from behind a

corner when he's walking and go boom play night crawlers he'll drop yeah he'll drop man so she gave it to paul along along with the medication there. And Paul, you know, they switched it, did the same thing, crushed it up. Billy did the pill switch. But Paul Sr. became sick from his dinner before they could give him the poison. He had to eat food to take his pills, and the food made him sick, so then he didn't take his pills. So that's hilarious. Food poisoning saved his life so anyway that attempt was unsuccessful so next up they're like

okay let's do you know what we need to be a little more aggressive here this is all we're we're just we're dancing around it this is like the first round of a prize fight we're feeling it this is bullshit here we go this is what we're going to do. Billy and Paul decide, Rosemary, here's what you're going to do. You're going to render him unconscious with a rag full of ether. Now we're going into wrestling ideas. We'll put some ether on him and shave his head. Yeah.

We're going to get dirty this time. So now, after he's unconscious from the ether, now we have a minute to do what we need to do. We'll take the syringe that we had that we were going to inject liquid poison into something, and we'll inject an air bubble into one of his veins and kill him that way, which is a very junky way to do it. So they ended up abandoning the plan because when they all crept in there to do it, rag of ether ether fucking air bubble filled uh needle they saw that jason was sleeping with paul senior he's sleeping there on his

shoulder so they're like shit okay well we can't let's we don't want the ether around the kid so they don't at least they had the decency to not ether the kid with the kid president yeah you know right there so bill and marianne end up leaving for georgia they said they you know at that point they had no further part in the whole deal in their mind they're going to georgia they don't give a fuck fuck everyone here in in indiana they get to louisville the next morning marianne calls rosemary and mary rosemary was upset because paul senior was threatening to check her purchases that were charged at her place of employment. And she was afraid that they would discover not only all that stuff, but also she had loaned Marianne some money, which was also going to be a beating.

So the whole thing's terrible. So Bill and Marianne turn around and go back to Hammond like we got to go back and take care of business. Turn around and go back to Hammond. Like, we got to go back and take care of business. Yeah. So later that night, Rosemary contacts Bill and Marianne at their hotel and says that Paul Sr. is running around, yelling, screaming, swinging a belt at Paul Jr., threatening to cause trouble at school and her place of employment. Just, I'll fucking go down to the school. I'll beat your boss up with my belt down

at your pharmacy like he's literally saying shit like that i'll go down there and kick a hole and fuck you know old margie that works the register i will beat her ass i'm not kidding you i will well maybe this is side effects from all the chemicals that he's had in his body that's the other thing so paul um paul gets on the phone, Paul jr. And says, we got to do something tonight. So they plan to inject air into his veins that night again. So 1am they enter the house.

It's March 20th, 1983, 1am Bill and Marianne enter the house. Once Paul jr. Signals that Paul jr. Is, you know, away.

So bill, Billy van diver and Paul jr. Go to Paul jr.'s bedroom senior's bedroom and uh at that point they hear scuffling marianne from the outside of the bedroom here scuffling and they hear paul senior cry out for help okay so paul jr is holding his father down while billy van diver is trying to smother him with a pillow this is really bad they're really bad at this real rudimentary murder this is really don't even try just put a pillow over his face very basic it works in the movies a guy's older he just put a pillow over his face he struggles a little and then he dies so uh at one point he you know he woke up obviously he even yelled out son son can't we

work something out because he sees his son is holding him down it's so heartbreaking well remember he's an alcoholic who beats people by nine in the morning so let's keep that in mind before we are too heartbroken about it so he's repeatedly also hollering for rosemary help me rosemary they're on me they're on me so he's not dying from the pillow they can't get that to work so finally billy says fuck this and pulls out a fish fillet knife and just starts to fucking shank his ass oh jesus just starts to shank him um he stabbed him uh later on billy will say that he stabbed him over 100 times but the coroner only finds about 40

stab wounds so you lose count after a while when you're in a rage apparently also prison rapists are not the best at math they're notoriously bad at it bad counters so yeah they're stabbing Paul Jr. or Paul Sr. in the back

with a fish fillet knife. It's the one he always had on him. I don't know why I didn't think of that to begin with. So Paul, uh, stay hit Paul senior over the head five or six times with a gun. Also that did nothing. So he's not dead. They're stabbing him 40 times. He's still alive.

They're beating him in the head with a gun. He's not dead. He's still not dead. So, um, they hit him again. He's still alive they're beating him in the head with a gun he's not dead he's still not dead so um they hit him again he's still not dead oh my god uh by the way 34 of the knife wounds were of the deep penetrating variety yeah so he's still breathing at this point still not dead it's at this point where they're like, well, we better dispose of him. So dispose of a live body. Well, you can if you go into the garage and you come back with a hacksaw and a crosscut saw. Oh, while he's alive.

They keep they reach the bedroom. Paul Senior still alive. Yeah. still alive yeah paul jr um holds him down and billy starts to saw his head off with a hacksaw while he's still alive holy shit man um he finishes he saws paul senior his cause of death was decapitation decapitation holy mother fuck are you kidding they sawed this man's head off of his body while he was alive holy that's cold shit man attempt with the smother with the pillow beating with the gun stabbing 40 times over 40 times in the back and all this type of shit and then had his head sawed off while he was still alive unbelievable this is wow holy shit man Do you see why we couldn't just not tell this story? Yeah.

And let it, this is. Oh, my God. Fucking bonkers. This is crazy shit. So, yeah, they're like, God damn. That is heavy. They get his head off. This is why Rosemary didn't want this in the house.

Because now this is a lot to clean up. God damn it when you saw the head off a live person i assume there's a lot of blood probably from that i'll bet that's the most the most probably it's just it's got to be like a golden corral chocolate fountain at that point it's just everywhere so they they get his head off and then rosemary they bill and paul come out in the living room, and Rosemary and Marianne join them, and they're all standing there, and they're like, well, his head's off, so that's a good sign.

It's done now, I think. Rosemary says, well, let's have a drink to celebrate. Oh, boy, Rose. So, yeah, they did that. They have a drink. They all sit around, and job well done. So now they have to get rid of this body. Yeah.

Now the disposal. They decide to tell people that he left suddenly on a fishing trip. One of those sudden fishing trips that come up in mid-March in Indiana. It's very sudden. So they ended up, they got all this tools and all this shit. They gathered up all his clothes that he wore that evening. They went through his wallet. They kept some of his credit cards and destroyed other credit cards for some reason.

They dismember the body, Billy and Paul, take it apart, dismember it, placing it in a number of separate garbage bags. They would, at one point, they would take breaks because dismembering a body is a long process. They'd take smoke breaks. At one point, Billy offered Rosemary Paul Sr.'s dick as a joke. You want to keep this? Literally had it in his hand. He goes, you want to keep this with you? Whatever.

Ha, ha, ha. Not a joke. They all laughed about it. Yeah. Paul wouldn't have laughed. No. Because he had no sense of humor. Very little sense of humor.

Now, if you can't laugh at that, you know what I say? If you can't laugh at yourself, you know what I mean? So they said they ended up, they used the knife instead of a saw because the saw teeth would plug up with fat and flesh, so they complained about that. Oh, dear God. They casually commented on the amount of fat around his heart they said it would look like a chicken heart look at that they were just real callous about the whole thing um you know nobody really no nobody really gave a shit um so they disposed of it along lake michigan with other evidence of

the crime there sure and uh then they rosemaryemary and Marianne cleaned up the bedroom where all of it took place. That was it. Then Paul Jr. gave them $5,200 and let them escape to Vegas, Billy and Marianne. And yeah, that was that. So people only notice that he's missing. The only people that notice he's missing are his bar friends. They're like, Paul ain't been in a while, has he? I don't think he has.

I ain't seen him. This happy hour ain't very happy. Where's Paul? Where's Paul? But Rosemary just said he's on a fishing trip. But it's March. So they're like, and they all talk to him. What do you think you talk about in a bar?

Fishing. Fishing comes up yeah and they said that he always said the only time he ever goes fishing or day trips with his grandson to like a local lake for two hours he doesn't go on long fishing outings so they're excursions yeah they're suspicious so eventually rosemary files a missing person report but her story is ridiculous it's sure it's asinine so eventually she said okay he's dead cut up in a bunch of garbage bags around the lake oh they didn't they didn't believe her they were like rosemary seriously where is he stop with the jokes rosemary yeah you're so funny fuck i get that you're i get that you feel free and you think people might laugh now because paul senior's not around now someone might laugh seriously

so they said fine we'll go walk around the lake they see a pile of construction debris and um yeah they said there was there it was they found him in there all the different parts that uh the police officer said there was, quote, there was not the reaction you'd expect to see for a kid who helped bury his dad. This is, they're talking about Paul Jr. No love, no remorse, no empathy, no hesitation. Oh, boy. Yeah, that's wild.

Billy will surrender, he said. He said if he could visit his parents' home for about an hour, then he'll surrender. That's what he said. That's what he said. Let me visit my parents and I'll surrender. He's like a nice lunch with the. Yeah, I want to go hang out with my mom for a while. Taste mom's tater salad one last time. So, you know, he said that on the way back, he gets extradited from Nevada back here.

Actually, they end up getting him in Missouri. He didn't make it all the way to Vegas. And in the back of the car, he tells the cop, quote, you know, if I get more than 20 years for this, I'd rather fry. That's what he wants. So, yeah, that's how it works. So it's pretty fucking interesting here. They they end up getting, you know, Paul Jr. here to they they tell the whole story. Rosemary doesn't mind telling the story.

That's the other thing. She's having a good time. No. And they they manipulate Billy Van Diver pretty good in the in the interrogation. The guy, the cop says, after an hour or so of conversation, I started a hypothetical thing playing on his ego. If you had killed him,

how would you do it? He said, and he laid this whole thing out as I was taking notes. When he finished, all that I said was, you and I both know that this isn't hypothetical,

is it, Bill? You just told me exactly what happened to him. How would you kill someone i don't i'd probably try to smother them and if that didn't work maybe stab the shit out of them beat them with a gun but um and then if that didn't work hell i'd just decapitate i mean that's quick right so um yeah they read the statement um van diver started to cry when they read the statement given to police by paul jr and uh they said quote the first words out of his mouth were i did it for them and they were

trying to pin it on me now i'm sons of bitches nobody's pinning anything you did it motherfucker so uh everybody was blaming everything else uh they find him in a half dozen plastic bags 50 feet from the lake michigan shoreline good lord uh rosemary paul jr william and marianne all indicted on the murder obviously there they're all of them all of them um yeah uh who was it uh marianne ends up agreeing to become a witness against her family sure um oh no i'm sorry it's yeah yeah no it's her marianne no it's marianne the daughter wow she's going to be a witness against her family sure um oh no i'm sorry it's yeah yeah no it's her marianne no it's marianne the daughter wow she's going to be a witness against her family mother and all if she has her charges reduced from murder to assisting a criminal which is a lot less than murder um and

she's released on 7500 bond holy shit they were like you good, and just patted her on the back and sent her on her way. Rosemary and Paul Jr. have a joint trial here, and they have all their statements. It's pretty fucked here. Pretty damning, yeah. Verdict, they're guilty, obviously. The sentencing, they said, this is the prosecutor, that the mother and son showed up blackened character of epic proportions without historical precedence. OK, that's a lot there. That's a lot. They said it seems this whole family is genetically free of feelings, genetically free of feelings.

Wow. I mean, that's sociopaths, right? That is awesome. Yeah, they're just, they don't even care. So he says. Genetic Ajaxes, these people. Fucking clean slates. You, ma'am and sir, may fuck off.

They're both sentenced to 45 years on the conspiracy to commit murder charge. Yeah. And 55 years on the charge of murder in the first degree pretty well over for them it's it's a lot yeah um and they said too that um the uh paul jr was bragging and boasting in jail um don't do that sir he bragged to some woman that he met too and uh she said it didn't faze him no emotion no remorse he was just like yeah we totally killed her no problem um so william's trial here billy's trial he claims rosemary gave him 1700 and paul senior's truck and uh by the time the trial comes around he

recants his confession and blames the whole murder and the decapitation on paul jr he just stood by watching while paul jr ran amok on this motherfucker i've been to jail so paul probably just figured i i know this stuff so i just stood there and just like a like a good journeyman gave the apprentice all the instructions he did you know hey the job i'm the supervisor and you at some point you got to teach the next generation how to do it. You know what I mean? So the doctor did a workup on him, on Billy, and he said, This is not a story of murder, family intrigue, greed, and dark passions, but as good a look at the proverbial beast in man, is what he said.

He also said that Billy probably gets a vicarious kick out of recounting the details. That's why he confessed. He said he's mentally cool alert and sharp so they said he's uh totally cool for trial and for sentencing yeah jury finds him absolutely guilty as shit obviously this is all his idea and uh sentencing comes around william decide he's not going to fight the sentence and waves all of his appeals wants nothing to do with that he said whatever you want to do to me do to me i'll take it they said you sir may fuck off death penalty oh oh you shouldn't have done that he said he'd rather fry i mean yeah he did he tried to paint himself as a victim of a of a family plot. And he was just caught up in it like a pawn. Yeah. He's caught up in it like some kelp in a wave.

There's just nothing you can do. Misguided kids, misguided kid. And he says this. There's a he has an appeal and then he wants to waive further appeal. So they have to have a hearing to see if he's like, OK, to waive his all of his further appeals. So they have to have a hearing to see if he's like, OK, to waive his all of his further appeals. And he says, and I quote. Quote, Well, I turned myself in. I admitted to the crime. I see no sense in wasting everybody's time at the best that could happen.

I would end up doing 45 years and I'm going to die there anyway. So why prolong it? You know, you know, there is no need. I'm going to die there regardless. So I don't see no sense in the setting there when it's going to happen anyway. Well, to me, being executed would be less than getting a tooth pulled. It would be over with. My family wouldn't have to suffer no more.

My friends or the people that are concerned, it would be over with. I see no sense in dragging them around for another 10 or 15 years and having to depend on them. I see no sense in that either. I'm a gambler. I was taking a gamble. The gamble didn't pay off. I see no sense to proceed any further with anything. He's a gambler, Jimmy. Yeah.

Kenny Rogers told him to know when to hold him. You got to know when to hold him. Know when to wave your appeals. Know when to sit down in the electric chair and fry. You got to count your last meals. Just get a pizza. Just get that stuffed crust and you'll die with a stomachache. That's right.

Okay, so. Get the worst food you can. Ain't no time to digest it. When the needle's done. His lawyer, I don't know, this is the cop who ended up, did the first interview, said he's the kind of guy where life or death means nothing to him. But other than being a cold-blooded killer killer he was a pleasant guy to sit and talk to doesn't mean he's not a you know decent a decent shit as they would say he'd in prison he does all sorts of crazy jesus colored pencil sketches really oh all sorts of artsy all sorts of religious pictures with

with colored pencil pencils october 17th 1985 by the way so this is like two years later that's execution day wow they bring marianne who is serving her prison sentence at another prison they bring him in bring her in to visit which is highly unusual they never do that and uh they said it was not something that they'd ever heard of before a bunch of court people said they never heard of that before but uh to visit a prisoner before they go yeah that's crazy they never get to do that it's weird that she would want to even and she turned on him and testified against him what's the deal last meal pizza and coke soda pizza and pepsi last meal that's not bad i mean it's all right what you'd be craving in prison yeah very common last words

this is a great last words any last words billy his last words quote no comment i don't want you to know what my last words are. No comment. No comment. Maybe later. That is stubborn as fuck. That is fucking stubborn. Yeah, it's a wooden electric chair. Wow. They put him in it. He's going like this.

Oh, yeah. Oh, boy. It was fashioned from the gallows. When they took down the hanging gallows, they used the wood and made an electric chair out of it. That's like an extra fuck you. It's an extra big. There's a lot of bodies on this wood. We don't want to waste the wood, so we just figure we'll make it into this.

Yeah. Well, it didn't go according to plan, apparently. He was still breathing after the first administration of 2,300 volts, and 500 volts was applied again. Then this current was applied three more times before he was finally pronounced dead 17 minutes later. Oh, my God. They just repeatedly cooked him for 17 minutes over and over. They kept saying, still too rare. Put him back on.

Oh, Percy. What a sponge. This isn't good for anybody. We don't want to do that. They said that they had checked the electric chair three times by a private contractor, and it functioned flawlessly. They don't understand what the fuck happened. They're very embarrassed by all of it.

Oh, I'm sure. Now, very quickly, Paul and Rosemary have appeals. They don't go anywhere. Paul Jr. is paroled in 2019. Yeah. They don't go anywhere. Paul Jr.'s paroled in 2019. Yeah.

They write in the Chicago Tribune, I believe, there's a big fluff piece on him talking about, you know, he's going to be good now. And he was a kid when his family did all this crazy shit. So they let him. He took his dad's top off for Christ's sake. Oh, yeah, yeah. But he's the kind of a victim they make him out to be. Holy shit. He ends up getting out on parole and he goes back to jail like almost immediately um of course yeah he admitted visiting uh he left the city

where he wasn't supposed to did some shit he wasn't supposed to and ended up getting put back in jail here september 2009 rosemary wants out even though she's got a hundred year sentence and uh they said nope sorry stick around but they do let paul jr out again in 2010 yeah he gets in a bike accident and fucks himself up i mean he's a fucking mess um he was in a coma for 22 days and went through seven surgeries paul jr so he was out in 2009 yeah then he got went in and then got back out again. You said 2019. I just wanted to make sure. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, 2009.

His nose was sheared from his face. His chin broken in two places. His upper lip sliced off, lost 12 bottom teeth, half his tongue, broke both eye sockets, tore facial muscles, and fractured over 50 facial bones. On a motorcycle? On a bicycle. Bicycle. How do you go over the handlebars that hard? Somehow his bike escaped with barely a scratch, they said.

It was totally fine. He went over the bars and landed on his face. Yeah. Well, he sues the city saying that there's a hole, a big hole in the sidewalk, and he flipped off of his bike and landed on his face. So he sues the city, but then the judges in this panel rule three nothing that he was drunk riding the wrong way on the street. So your fault, asshole. And they go, go fuck yourself, and they send him back. They say he's responsible for his bike crash eat dicks uh 2013 rosemary dies in prison at 86 poor rosemary

2013 also paul is arrested again oh boy for dealing drugs like a fucking idiot yeah um yeah he also is arrested and convicted of charges of trespassing and attempted theft and receives a year in prison on each charge. And then he was released in prison again in March of 2014. And this moron's out there somewhere. So. Wow. There you go, everybody.

That's Hammond, Indiana. Jesus Christ. That's why we had to tell you that story Paul out there wandering around fucking up and the daughter's probably oh Jesus I hope oh poor Jason oh Jason's okay what a fucking mess well two dead Billy's dead too so three out of the whole crew are dead yeah it's a mess um oh boy that's why we had to tell that story and if you saw the virtual live show you know we kind of filled in a lot more detail around stuff and their backgrounds. But holy shit, this was a story that needed to be told.

A Mr. Magoo killing. And one of the most brutal killings we've ever had in the history of the show. Ever. Ever. That's unbelievable. It was fucking disturbing and disgusting. That said, join us every week. Listen on Thursdays to Small Town Murder murder the regular length show and also on

every monday or every tuesday to crime and sports do that motherfucker into the station choo-choo all aboard we're pulling in everybody get the fuck off the train now everybody off there you go thank you so much thank you so much. We'll see you next week. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts.

I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great.

A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's

most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.