Small Town Murder - #293 - STM Express - All Book, No Cover - Morton, Illinois

Episode Date: June 24, 2022

This week, in Morton, Illinois, a couple has a very nice life, and many accomplishments, including him, being a respected doctor, as they raised four children together. One day, things changed. Mental breakdowns, an affair with a Rabbi, hiding money, a secret love nest, furnished with the imaginary proceeds from a multi level marketing scheme, all come to a head on one particular day. When an incredibly vicious murder occurs, while witnesses try to physically stop it, with no luck. The resulting bloodbath causes many years of court, and a frankly crazy result! A wild story, all the way through!Along the way, we find out that you should like pumpkin, if you live in this town, that if movers can't move you, you don't want to be moved, and that some books are anything but their covers!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everybody, and welcome to Small Town Murder Express. Yay and choo-choo. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman.

Thank you so much for joining us all aboard the murder train. We have a wild, wild story for you today. Of course, as always. I mean, we're going to cram. It is going to be 10 pounds of lightning in a two-pound bag here, so let's get it on. It is not shit, lightning. That's what we're going to do. Not in a bottle, in a bag so it can break out. That's what we're going to do.

Thank you for joining us, though. And a couple things here. Anything, tickets to live shows? Shut up and give me murder.com. Anything, the show-related crime and sports or small-town murder. Merchandise tickets, anything you want, you can get there. Also, patreon.com slash crime and sports or small town murder merchandise tickets. Anything you want, you can get there. Also, patreon.com slash crime and sports.

Anybody $5 or above, you get access to everything, all the bonus material. Very quickly this week for crime and sports, which you'll get access to, our bonus there. We're going to talk about our top five sports movie lists, each of us, excluding some obvious ones that are going to definitely be in our top three. Your Bad News Bears, your Major League. We'll put those aside and talk about those separately and then get into the five list. And I'm sure they'll be debating and arguing and it'll be fun. So get into that. There will be awful choices.

I'm not a cinemate cinephile. No. But how many sports movies are there? You know, you've seen them all. That's how it is. And then for small town murder, we're going to do a back by popular demand thing here. Old timey murders. We go back through newspaper archives and talk just about the weirdest stuff we can find in the last like hundred years of crazy murder stuff and weird articles that I found also just along the way in newspapers.

Stuff about like aliens, stuff about a clown being murdered in Madison Square Garden is a dressing room. They call them to the stage. Didn't show up. And they were like, where is he? Where's giggles or whatever? And then they go back and he's dead. I'm like, that's terrific. So we'll talk about all that.

That's Patreon dot com slash crime and sports is where you get all of that. And make sure, everybody, our next live show is New Orleans. The 15th of July. Get your tickets right now. Get there. And that said, I think it's time to sit back. Jimmy, clear the lungs. What do you say?

Everybody, and wherever you are, at home, in the car, not in a very public place probably, but other places, sit back and clear the lungs and shout, Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this. Yeah. Let's go on a trip, shall we? We shall. We are going to Morton, Illinois.

Morton? Morton. It is like dead. It's kind of right smack in the middle of Illinois. It's between- Originator of the steakhouse. Yeah, or the salt. It could be the salt people we're not sure yeah there's just little girls with umbrellas walking around

everywhere in this town it's little girls and raincoats and umbrellas on a sunny day what's happening so uh it's kind of right between peoria and springfield in that area and equal distance just kind of right in the middle between St. Louis and Chicago. Oh, a halfway point. A halfway point, I would say. This is the point where you stop and pee, right here. So it is population at this point 16,232 people, and it's been going up steadily kind of over the years here. Really? The income here, it's kind of a leafy suburb, you could call it, type of thing because you've got a high income.

Median household income here is $77,000, which is over $20,000 more than the national average. A ton of people here making over $100,000 as well. Really? Yeah. It's people who make really good money and the people who mow their lawns. That's who works. That's who lives in this town kind of a thing. So it's also a very low cost of living as well. The median home cost here is only $204,100, which is like 100 grand short of the national average there.

And so high income, low cost of living. You're going to get very comfortable people. We have some reviews of this town that's all we're going to really talk about are these reviews because there are some weird shit going on in this town just based on just based on these reviews uh here is one it's three stars and this person neither of us lived this person's life so i just found it fascinating three stars living in morton illinois was Illinois was overall a cool experience if you were an athlete in high school. I also participated in music with the very established marching band the high school created.

As an athlete, I got third in state for basketball, played football, ran track, and excelled. Participated in marching band. I stuck around and kept participating in all activities through high school i had great experiences as long as i was in high school the atmosphere was very calm and family-based there was heavy involvement with students and parents not a place for college kids but for grade school to high school after school i entered the real world and got a glimpse of reality i worked in town and realized how I didn't want to be here. After I leave, I will visit back and give back to the community,

but I wouldn't choose to live here for any reason. Maybe when I get older, I'll choose a place much like it, but I don't see any reason to live here anymore. I had great experiences with teachers, fellow students, athletes, and musicians, but it's time for a change yeah bra is the only thing missing from the end of that i really enjoyed high school i got blowies dude this guy and i got out of high school and i realized you got to earn blowjob hand jobs on demand just in between classes this kid's talking about blowjobs raining

from the ceiling for this kid to know this kid's life i don't understand it at all it's things are cool if they were like if you like excelled in three sports and you know like it was like a letterman and was in all the bands yeah musically talented i could i was fast and athletic and we had access to all the chicks the different ones the band chicks the the sports chicks, different chicks. Here's three stars. Then when I was in checking and receiving, nobody gave a shit. All of a sudden, it's like the blowjobs just stop, man.

First, I was like, I know why those girls are walking around with umbrellas, because there's blowjobs raining down upon us. You know what I'm saying? But then I was like, hey, what's up with that? Here's three stars. Morton is a pretty safe town it's known for being full of wealthy white people but there is some middle class to poor people oh boy as well uh please don't isolate this is not me as well as a few colored people yikes what this is from 2018 this review what are you doing man i was like what

is this from 58 no this is 2018 that sounds i always found that silly like even back then that phrase because it sounds like well the person was they were they were transparent and then they someone colored them in it sounds like like someone else chose what the color that it sounds very weird the school system is really nice until you get to the high school level this person wasn't an athlete and a musician i don't think here many people graduate hating the school and its administration all in all it's a nice place for a family and it's about three hours from chicago there you go i know a guy who disagrees with you. A lot. He really, they had a very different experience in high school. And then finally, two stars.

There's two of these here. Two stars. Not lots of choices. No real nightlife. Not lots of choices is the first. That's a fascinating. I don't understand that at all. Yeah.

So there's that. And then also two stars. Morton is very clicky. I wish people were not so rude to special people groups. Terrible place to live if you're anything but white and heterosexual. It's a small town in the middle of Illinois. So I could have told you that without probably saying even reading much about it. Family Circle magazine, which is a hot publication that we're all reading, I know.

Wasn't that a cartoon? Yeah, it's a real, it's like, I don't know who reads Family Circle. But Family Circle Magazine ranked Morton as one of its 10 best towns for families in 2013. So that's the overview of this town, obviously. Their main thing to do is the Morton Pumpkin Festival. Oh, boy. Yeah, and it's things like a pumpkin grill. What?

They have a pumpkin pancake breakfast and shit like that. And then American English performs. Whatever the fuck that is. I'm all about the pumpkin spice i dig that i'm kind of into it now i hate pumpkin i don't like it you know in coffee oh for fuck it's amazing i don't want any pumpkin i love it everybody keep your pumpkins away from me so pancakes are great too i don't know about this so i don't like regular pancakes all right we've discussed this you've never had a hot pancake and neither have i and neither is anyone else in the world

these would have been good if they're hot i've said that every time i've had pancakes but it's impossible why did you give me butter that doesn't melt yeah pancakes go cold faster than any other thing they go cold faster than bananas go bad. It's just quick. They're the banana of baked goods. Not baked or whatever. Cooked foods. So very low crime rate here, about half the average for both violent and property crime.

So that said, let's talk about this murder. Here we go. Okay, let's do this. We got to go back to 1984. So 1984, the Midwest. It's Illinois, not Indiana, but you can picture, you know, Dustin and Mike and Eleven are riding around on Lucas and they're all, yeah. They're riding bicycles all around here with their giant walkie-talkies

fighting the upside- monsters here so uh 1984 let's talk about a man uh named dr joshua allen fire f-i-e-r-e-r fire would you say fear fire um we we don't usually talk about many people to start a story out with the word doctor in their title normally it's you know trailer maintenance man doc you know joshua whatever the fire it's not i don't think i've ever heard of a dr joshua dr joshua and here's another thing joshua you think of that as what people born in 1980 1980 young man yeah yeah born in 1937 joshua joshua but he's he's jewish so josh it's a name. Biblical name. It's a biblical deal. So he's going Old Testament, everybody.

So he's a graduate of Alford University. He also, we'll talk about this because he becomes a doctor. He's a licensed surgeon and everything else here. Dr. Josh. Doctor, we don't ever have this. This is just. Never heard of a Dr. Josh. Well above, this is outside of our scope, everybody. We don't ever have this this is just never heard of a dr josh well above this is outside of our scope everybody we don't understand this i don't think it's dr josh it's like a guy that

writes books about sex yeah and he's not a doctor at all no that's the thing he no he just called himself dr josh and then he you know stabbed a 14 year old for no reason that's what we deal with normally here yeah this is a different dr josh legit dr josh he served in the united states air force as a flight surgeon so uh yeah this is like a shit very impressive things things we could never do he's doing this is things we're impressed with because we could never do them he was on the medical staff at columbia university creighton university and uh in the 80s here from 1978 on the university of illinois as well at peoria so yeah he's doing pretty well but many boards he's on including the american cancer society he's on he's doing very well for himself here i found a an article from 1966 and our stories in 84.

So he's been a doctor a long time where they're, it's a whole article where they're talking to him about how, uh, it's how important it is to, uh, get these measles vaccinations here saying that measles killed 28 children in Pennsylvania in the last two years. And they need to,

you know, can't treat this as a nothing thing. You know, if you don't get immunized, you're going to get the whole deal. So he's going fucking don't get measles is his whole point. But he's the guy speaking for the pro anti measles side. Dr. Josh is anti measles. He's anti measles, as most doctors are probably, I would think. I think everyone should get measles. It's good for character, and I don't hear that a lot.

So he is the pathology department chairman at the University of Illinois' Peoria campus as of the 80s. Would it be fair to say he's one of the best doctors in America? I don't know about that, but I mean he he's respected he's got a lot of respect yeah i mean he's a guy that if he gave his his stats any other doctor would go all right he's not a schlub he knows what he's doing obviously i ran into him at the american cancer society dinner where we you know blah blah blah so um he's got a wife dr josh does um her name is mary and she's a couple of years younger than him, but same age group. Basically, they got married in 1959. I mean, you know, so they've been married a long time. They have four children together and all of this type of shit. He graduated from medical school in 63. So they got married while he was still in school. still in school and um you know like i said he's he rises to the chairman of the pathology department at the university of illinois medical school since 1978 now mary's has she had some trouble in her life mary she had some uh electroshock therapy after yeah when she was younger like as

a child um she was hospitalized as a child and had electroshock therapy, which as a child in the 40s, who knows what the what the symptoms were to get you that it could be anything like this, like psychiatric shit wasn't exactly the same. They just kind of throw you in a room and then shock your brain and then go, feel better now? You better? And then they go, cheer up, bitch. I don't know. Here's that, as we've talked about many times before. But that was psychology back then. I don't know. We told her to cheer up. We shocked her brain.

And she's still, I don't know. I guess we give up. Fuck it. She's messed up. That's it. I can't believe that's a theory. Hook her up to a battery. See how that's it i can't believe that's a that's a theory hook her up to a battery see how that works why they still do that they still do different kinds of electroshock

therapy but now it's a lot more targeted to certain things back then it was just they would zap your brain your brain they would zap it so much where people would forget the last six months of their life do you ever watch mad men there's a whole storyline with one of pete campbell's girlfriends there's this married lady who forgets he existed after they fucked for a few months. It's crazy. She's just like, you look nice. Nice to meet you. And she, whoa.

So, but it was basically like this lady goes a little wacky once in a while and starts fucking people. So the husband like has her electroshocked and then she's like, you know, docile for like a year again. And then you start the cycle over it was a crazy storyline so so back then there wasn't a lot to do uh she but this is a teenager she tried slashing her wrist and her arm with a razor blade oh god so obviously she needs to her brain shocked rather than you know any type of uh she did also receive psychotherapy yeah but that was in conjunction with that and uh who knows if she was put on some kind of heavy duty horse tranquilizers or something too i mean it's fascinating that we do that to people that clearly have some some kind of fucking

trauma that's happened to them and our choice is to going forward instead of discussing and working out the problem getting to the root of it Let's just jam them full of chemicals and electromagnetic waves. And, yeah, we don't know if it's something organic, too. We have no idea. It could be, you know, we have no clue. It could just be birth. We don't know what her family history is like. There could be mental illness.

And she could, we don't have any idea. We don't know what environment she grew up in. But she was, from all accounts, they were a happy couple and she was a good mother and um you know everything was fine through the years from 1959 through the 70s i mean we're talking a good solid 20 years of of happiness in the marriage here at least uh from all accounts from all accounts yeah from the we're talking from the kids' accounts, from everybody. It's well-rounded accounts. It's not just one of the people saying it, one of the participants.

So up until 1981. 1981, Mary's mother dies. And Mary is, she completely, according to everybody, turns into a different person out of nowhere. Like when her mom dies, something snaps in there and she can't handle it. It's something. I don't know. Everybody said before that she used to like help him with work. They were like a team and not that she has to do that but she seemed to enjoy doing

that she would she didn't have to and she would do it she would like uh want him to like invite faculty and students over and she would help wanted to entertain and be part of the whole thing and uh you know all that sort of thing she played the she would run the household raise the children did all that and whatever so this is all happening in 1981. It's she just doesn't doesn't go that way anymore. Now, she seeks counseling with the at the at the temple here. She goes to seek counseling from their rabbi. She has converted to Judaism, by the way.

She wasn't born Jewish. She's she converted when they got married. So that's how before they got married. So that ended up working. So she seeks counseling from the rabbi of the temple. And, you know, she and also Josh, they'd go together. Dr. Josh and Mary, they'd come together. They'd talk to the rabbi.

The difference is, though, apparently after they would talk to the rabbi at some point josh would go and leave and you know do his doctor business and mary would fuck the rabbi is that right so yeah that's the difference though there so there's a slight you know they would thank you for fixing me here's your reward they would both do the counseling session. Yeah. And then they were just one would stay is the difference. And then one would go, I guess. So. Oh, my God. This starts in October 81. She's banging the rabbi.

All right. So this is very crazy now. This goes on until about June 82. And we'll talk about how it came to a head. Is that a thing? Is that like in Catholicismism the priest doesn't fuck people does the rabbi fuck well hold on a minute wait a second hold on a second priests aren't supposed to fuck people that's the thing that happens here it's not sanctioned fucking uh rabbis are they can

date and marry and everything like that so if it's a single rabbi you're perfectly welcome to find a nice young lady and you know hook up with them and marry them and do all of that shit. What you can't do, I think is frowned upon in probably every religion, is to fuck the married wives of your parishioners. That's probably not okay. Especially the ones coming for counseling with the husband, and then when he leaves, you fuck her. I don't think that's—that's probably frowned upon, no matter it's forbidden what the faith i'm gonna say i remember in the jazz singer i don't remember neil diamond's dad doing that ever i'm just that's you know i don't remember that even him he was the cantor he did nothing so i fascinating it's that's it's wild so this goes on

for a while and um yeah uh now the way this the way this whole thing went down and the way he found out about it is pretty crazy and we'll talk about that uh but this they went to counseling because she started becoming distant and took less of an interest not only in his shit which was fine but also in the children in the household as well they were like what's wrong with mom and he was like well maybe some counseling with the rabbi will help so well and this guy'll fix it maybe that'll help so a lot of her meetings we'll call them in quotes with the rabbi came when she was on another quote business trip uh with her job which we'll talk about here um she got a job working for exclusive home products which i tried to yeah i tried looking it

up and trying to find it and like really look and it sounds like it's a like a multi-level marketing thing from back then where they sold household products knives were a big thing they sold like yeah so that's a she wasn't there was no store so that's she's doing it on her own she's like a door to door she's yeah she got in her trunk and showing up so what she would do is she say she was going on business trips to sell items and then she wouldn't she just hang out with the rabbi and fuck him in a hotel so it eventually came to light that she never even sold any products at all like she hasn't even been working and And all the times when she says, okay,

going to sell shit. Now she's just going to meet the rabbi. Wow. But she was falsifying purchase orders. So it all looked like legit. So eventually they had to, the Joshua and Mary had to pay $2,000 to this company for all the shit she bought that she put in purchase orders for,

for fictitious people just to cover her tracks of where she's been jesus god so this is not most people in a multi-level marketing do that anyway yeah but they get no fucking out of it that's the thing so at least she got some dick out of it at this point i'm gonna say as far as multi-level marketing goes she's come out ahead chalk it up marketing goes, she's come out ahead. Chalk it up to Mary. She's come out ahead because it's going to cost her money either way. Oh, boy.

If that's not enough of a weird, strange kind of a secret life thing, she also is secretly renting a house in Peoria. You can't do that. Secretly renting a house. Again, what is this, this madman is this like a guy i got an apartment in the city or like what are we talking about that's just tossing money down the drain with rent well well she's got to have a it's it's a love nest they call it repeatedly yeah she spent she had an inheritance from her family apparently that she had some money stashed away she spent fifteen,000 of it in 1981.

Mind you, that's, you know, like spending $45,000 now on a, on to put furniture and to make this like the most comfortable place for them to go. Fuck swings and all that. All sorts of fuck swings. You have no idea. Mirrors and disco balls and fuck swings. All sorts of fuck swings. You have no idea. Mirrors and disco balls and fuck swings.

There's dildos on the wall, but they're bolted in. They're bolted in. You can go up and do what you want to do. They're at the right height and everything, and it's fine. I don't know. I want to see this place. I really do. I want to see if it's just a a typically furnished place or if it's like a clear fuck dungeon. She just furnished it like she's a – they have money.

He's a doctor. They do well. So she just furnished it. He's got to be so wealthy. She just furnished it in her taste, which is expensive. So, you know, by now, if you've been a doctor's family for 20 years, you're used to kind of buying what you want here. We'll tell you how much money he makes as a matter of fact at this point in time he's making six thousand five hundred fifty eight dollars per month which in night in 2022 that is eighteen thousand four hundred forty

nine dollars and twenty five cents a month from his job at the university okay that's good fucking money it's great cash that's yeah you're doing real well so uh anyway she uh she also then began forging uh dr joshua's name on dividend checks from one of their bit one of their investments to pay the bills on her secret love fuck nest whatever you want to call it so so she's siphoning money out of the out of the bills to put into her shit but it's forgery so that's not good at all no so it's a lot of different things she's really covering up a lot this rabbi must throw down when the sack can you imagine oh my god he must just be the the the moil with the mostest you know what i mean so she uh she uh would also convert uh she would use her checks that were

to be deposited in their children's trust accounts and instead siphon that off as well yeah there was trust deposits that she didn't make and she ran up huge bills for like clothes and like just stuff like she just was like well starting over not telling anyone about it but right starting over but in a marriage she doesn't think that this is ever gonna be found out this is nuts that's what i mean like what's going on here so they um they continued um anyway the the once he found out about all this and the money and everything like that the rabbi quickly put a stop to everything because, I mean, you don't want that reputation of you're breaking up people's marriages in the temple. That's not going to go well.

When you're a marriage counseling rabbi, that's not good. No one's going to trust you ever. You're literally doing the opposite of your job. Yeah, the worst possible thing. Yeah. Even if you did a bad job and they broke up that's fine you're not supposed to fuck one of them yeah while they're together still that's really putting a wrench in the whole deal sorry something else not just a wrench but a

cock and a wrench and everything else who knows we don't know how this place is furnished so they continued counseling with somebody less sexy, I would imagine, at that point. This goes on until March of 1983 when Mary refuses to participate anymore. She's done. She's done with the marriage counseling. She's not into that. Two months later, three months later, in June, she is then, of 1983, she's hospitalized for an overdose of drugs and alcohol. Seems to be on purpose.

She's tried to off herself with some drugs and alcohol. So she's released from the hospital. Ten days later, she is, same exact thing happens. She's back in the hospital. She tries to overdose again. Again. Yeah, in ten days. It took.

So she's having some issues. In 10 days. It took. So she's having some issues. The doctor, one of the doctors at the hospital in 1984, 83, called her a, quote, strange woman who was probably who was very confused and probably had mental problems. Well, diagnosis. Doc, if only there was a place you could take her to find out what those problems were if only there was a place with people who are educated in this sort of thing and could just take a look at her and find out that would be amazing you know of any place like that doctor perhaps she's such a bad case though james she is stumping a doctor

that's like i don't know man she's strange i guess i mean she's just a strange one also it might be a doctor that didn't work with her completely and only saw her, you know, kind of anecdotally here and there. Yeah. Or just, like, observed her coming in and around, just like, I don't know, I didn't examine her, but she seemed very confused, and I would assume mental problems.

I mean, whatever. So that ends up happening. They eventually agree to a divorce together. OK, so it's been it's been three years of working at it, trying to work it out. Let's get a divorce. Fuck it. So Joshua files a petition in January 1984. At first, it's an amicable divorce.

You know, they're going to try to split their assets amicably and everybody's going to be nice. That's amicably and everybody's going to be nice. Apparently, Mary at some point decides not to do that and starts filing different motions for different things in the divorce. No, no, no. Just to not have it be amicable anymore. One of them was in a paperwork here to basically get a temporary restraining order to bar him from the family home. And this was apparently out of nowhere while they were getting along from what everybody said and then finally in may of that year they agreed to that they would uh he would stay in the house she would move out with the two youngest children and set up a place okay so that's that's what they agree on so she's going

to move out of the family home he's going to stay there i think with the older children or if they're still there or whatever the fuck we obviously don't know everything that's happening but two suicide attempts that are pretty obvious attempts yeah i don't know that i'm putting my two babies in that woman's hands that's that's yeah i guess so that's the agreement that they make i guess apparently too also though if you're in the middle of a hostile divorce and there's something on the table that can make it smoother, you're going to go. Yeah, you take them. I also I think it's the I don't know if the younger children had a choice, but the two older children chose to stay with the father. Right. That's how that works. So that's why they stayed there, which I mean, they're older. They're in high school. Probably they don't want to fucking uproot themselves and move and all that. You know, their friends know where they live. I'm staying put. So then the but the other ones were with her. She interfered with visitation from him from the children as well that year. He constantly would tell the court she was interfering, not letting him get his visitation that he was supposed to get.

bearing not letting him get his visitation that he was supposed to get. So, um, welcome to the small town of Chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper in this new thriller available exclusively on Wondery Plus religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks, the isolated Montana community, everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced.

She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people.

With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if

you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus and the wondery app or on apple podcasts then apparently part of the divorce agreement was that she would continue to raise the children in the Jewish faith. And then he found out that she was going them, taking, going them.

She was taking them. She's going, man. She's taking them to a fundamentalist Christian church. Like a real, like a real hardcore, you know, fucking snake handle and that sort of shit type of church. So, you know, so there. So there's some problems there. Now, he's also having his own problems here. He's not by far from perfect here. He's got a lot of work problems.

I guess the medical school was undergoing a reorganization, so there's a possibility he could lose his job coming up here. Yeah, he started to becoming depressed and had, you know, just difficulty concentrating and sleeping. And you know what happens. Yeah. The life's falling apart. You know how that goes. Yeah.

It's all. Can't see the younger kids. This is happening. Life is a fucking cabaret. You're feeling wonderful. So, yeah, the head of the psychiatry department at the medical school began treating him for depression and even prescribed him medication, which he took on a daily basis starting in mid-1984. So that's how we go here.

Now, all of this leads up to winter of 1984, December. December 4th, 1984, Mary is at work, and she told one of her coworkers that finally, two days from now, movers are coming. I'm getting the rest of my shit out of there, and then it's just all done finally, basically. It's over with. She said that her nightmare would finally be over, Mary said, of this marriage. would finally be over mary said of this marriage so okay she said she was hoping to put her life back together um after completing her divorce because she starts to tell people around this time that like you know she that maybe there are a lot of rumors that dr joshua might have been knocking her around or there might have been some kind of violence in the past here. Yeah, so this is another issue that comes up here. So she said she's completing her divorce.

She's going to get her life back together. And her friend said the nightmare that she was going through is finally over for her, and it's going to be a happy time for her and her family is what her friend said. So December 6, 1984 is moving day. Very exciting. Now, moving day includes a lawyer by the way there is a lawyer at the house for moving day how contentious is this divorce yeah this lawyer represents the children uh apparently the court has assigned him as a guardian ad litem to this case. So he don't know. He's a guy named John Brady.

He's a lawyer. Not only is he an attorney, he's also a giant. He's six foot seven. He's a big, giant, strapping son of a bitch. Yeah. So big old John Brady is there to doling out the law. So apparently everything starts fine. It's 1030 a.m.

Moving day is fine.ary leaves saying she has to go back to her new place to get a bunch of boxes so you know how that goes on moving day you never have enough boxes oh it's such a bad day it's terrible so she comes back 20 to 45 minutes later um apparently she had removed her coat but uh she had come before, removed her coat, and I guess Dr. Josh here hung it up for her. And then this time she comes back and she declines his offer to hang up her coat. She wants to keep it on. No, no. She takes it off again, but doesn't want him to hang it up for her for whatever reason.

Who cares? So imagine if this was the last day where your ex-wife and all her shit's leaving. and who cares so imagine if this was the last day where your ex-wife and all her shit's leaving you're like i don't give a fuck if you take that coat wear that coat hang it up throw it in the yard wipe your ass with it i don't give a fuck get your shit get the fuck out i'm doing a dance in the living room don't care what you do with your coat you can't fucking set it on fire while you wear it i don't care you're fucking doing you're doing marriage is over dance in the living room at this point especially if it's contentious keep it on i don't want you getting comfortable here i want you to get the fuck out don't give a shit put it in one of those boxes you just brought don't care

don't care what you did with it so um as long as you take it when you leave that's all just don't leave it behind hey don't want to give you a reason to come back ever, ever, ever, ever, never, never, ever. This is not what he would be saying. This is our songs. Yeah. Personal songs. Oh, boy, did I have it. Yeah.

And she was shaking your asses. Hey, hey, hey. So apparently she goes into the bedroom closet and resumes what she was doing pre-box run, where she is sorting items from the closet. He enters the bedroom, Dr. Josh. Mary asks him, hey, can you get me a plastic bag from the kitchen, like a garbage bag, you know, whatever shit. Everybody has garbage in their closet, so everyone's got a bunch of shit needs to be thrown out.

So he comes back to find Mary kneeling at the entrance of the closet and apparently he knelt next to her and handed her the bag now none of that is disputed okay all of this is seen and now this is where it gets crazy at about 11 40 a.m john brady the lawyer big bad big guy there he's in the kitchen um calling his office he's a lawyer he's probably got other shit going on so he's calling his office using the kitchen phone while standing in the adjoining family room the movers are outside there's a moving two movers there loading their shit and josh and mary are are cleaning out the closet in a bedroom down the hall from the kitchen paul brady is on the phone he noticed uh

he noticed dr josh in the kitchen saw him leave carrying a plastic trash bag hey i said it right look at that uh within a minute or so all of a sudden from while he's on the phone brady hears a commotion as he describes it coming from the bedroom as if like a bunch of shit fell down from a closet shelf like you know you got a shelf in your closet and it breaks and you're like fuck those are all the photo albums jesus christ i got this shit on there oh man i had that or there was something up there that you grab it and there it's there's other shit on top of it you don't realize it yeah realize it fucking everything comes down i got one of those tall drinks from vegas that they give you in the street it's full of change.

That's everywhere now. Whale bone. That thing is loud. God damn it. So then the lawyer, Brady, hears Mary calling for help in a loud, excited voice. So as he describes it. So this guy, Brady, drops the phone and runs into the bedroom. He sees at this point to his shock and amazement because everything's fine

everybody's moving about doing their business movers are there this shit's over in an hour man this is you know so people doing shit there's a lot of people doing shit he sees dr josh on the floor near the closet with his elbows extended out from his body and he said his arms were moving very rapidly okay eventually brady realizes that dr joshua here is attacking mary with his arms that mary's underneath him and he's attacking her so he's like what the fuck now brady's six foot seven big old dude he tries to pull dr joshua off can't do it can Can't do it? He can't. He anchored him. He can't get him off of him, no matter what he does. He's beating her.

He's beating her or something. There's blood. He sees blood. His arms are moving. He's like, holy shit. Tried to grab him. Can't grab him. Brady runs to the front door and asks the movers.

They're movers. They got to be pretty strong, right? You guys are strong? Come here. Yeah, two of you can pick up a goddamn sectional and get it through a door. You can probably get a, you know, an aging doctor off of his wife. Right. Put down the recliner.

Come with me. Let's go. So he, you guys got those belts on so you can really, really give him a yank and not blow out your sphincters, you know? So he, uh, he runs the front door, ask the movers, he returns to the bedroom. And again, while he's waiting for the movers, tries to help Mary by pulling Josh off of him by the shoulders, off of her by the shoulders, but he can't do it again. So then Brady takes a case containing 45s, little records, you know, that go in like a jukebox back in the day. It's a goddamn big case of 45s.

Takes the 45s and smashes josh over the head with them okay does nothing nothing nothing not even a fucking reaction he doesn't even look up how angry is this guy so at this point brady was like holy shit i don't know what to do he got scared and he ran out and called the cops, ran out in the kitchen and called the cops, which he should have done anyway to begin with. But hey, movers, you help her. I'll call the cops. But I get it.

You want to help somebody that's being attacked. So the movers, Keith Mordu and William Vogel Jr., they're outside in the truck when they hear a woman's screams coming from inside the house, from what they say. Then Brady came outside to the door they're out they're movers they're out there smoking a cigarette taking a break they're going like so couch in the back we're gonna put we'll put the boxes here she's got that weird shaped thing we're gonna put that there while they're smoking all of a sudden this lawyer comes to the door frantic and he goes he says quote he's killing her he's killing her. He's killing her. They're like, huh?

What the fuck are you talking about? Holy shit. This is going to affect our tip. Movers don't give a fuck. Have you ever dealt with movers? They don't care what you have. It's fine. Whatever.

So Keith Mordu, he ran into the bedroom. He's the first guy in there, and he sees Mary leaning against the back of the closet, and we have Dr. Josh here leaning against her, stabbing her. Oh, my God, still. Stabbing her with a knife. So this guy, a mover, like we said, probably got some decent strength in him. He runs up and grabs from behind Dr. Josh's belt. That's a that's a way to control somebody by their belt, by the midsection. Can't get him off of him. How strong is Dr. Josh?

How does he anchor himself down to where he's an impossible person to move? At some point, strength over, you know, I can lift this much weight. I'm pulling you off. This is crazy. What kind of superhuman? Dr. Josh is glued to the floor. Did he sew himself to the floor first? So he is a surgeon. I'm pulling you off. This is crazy. What kind of superhuman glued to the floor? Say that he saw himself to the floor first. So he is a surgeon.

Maybe he's stitched himself down. This is crazy, though. This is horrible. So more do here. He runs into the he doesn't know what to do. So apparently while this is going on, Dr. Josh does not saying anything to anybody and doesn't even seem to realize, won't acknowledge anyone else's presence, doesn't seem to realize that people are hitting him with cases full of records and trying to yank him by the belt. He doesn't notice this shit at all.

Just in a murderous trance. In a murderous, weird deal. So Mordu says, okay, I got to do something. This is crazy, obviously. He sees leaning up against the wall, a baseball bat. Okay. He picks up the fucking baseball bat. Dr.

Josh doesn't acknowledge this at all. So he said he doesn't realize he had. He figured maybe if I picked up the bat, this guy would. Oh, shit. There's a guy with a bat now. So he sees after he gets the bat. Mary's still on the ground. Her head's in the closet and her legs are outside the closet. Dr. Josh is stabbing her.

Still stabbing. So he said, I have a back at the fuck offer. Stop. No, no pause. No hesitation. No acknowledgement. he raised the bat all the way over his head and swung it down as hard as he possibly could on dr josh's right shoulder collarbone right down i mean a mover from the top swinging it down as hard as they can he doesn't budge not a movement he doesn't budge imagine being hit from behind

with a fucking bat that hard and you don't even budge i you'd crumble that's crazy that is crazy man so he doesn't budge though so this guy's like holy didn't even didn't go didn't even say ouch didn't acknowledge that it happened not even uh not even that what do you just kept stabbing go home i thought at this point i figure this guy is either the terminator or dracula or something i'm leaving i'm i'm calling for reinforcements like yeah a bat is about as much as i can do like there's no gun handy or like right if a bat is the best thing if i swing a bat as hard as i can at you and you don't acknowledge it, I'm leaving. That's it.

This is like when Richard Ramirez shot that guy in the face and the guy was like, you motherfucker, and tried to attack him. And Richard Ramirez was like, oh, shit, and ran away. Smart move. The actual killer with a weapon in his hand still left. Smart move. You shoot a guy in the face, he doesn't respond. Get out of there. That's your best shot. You took it.

You know, his best shot is this baseball bat and he takes it. Nothing happens. So, um, but he does, instead of crying out after a second, he just turns and looks at him. Yeah. Like angry. Like you just fucking do that, which is the scariest thing he could possibly think at that point while he's covered in blood with a woman being stabbed horribly horror movie mordu said quote he paid no attention to me like i wasn't even there and he

said after he hit the baseball after with the baseball bat he said quote i wanted to break his collarbone or something to make him stop it didn't phase him a bit he looked at me as if i was going to be next oh boy yeah get the fuck out of there. So the mover, the two movers and the lawyer, they run away from the house. They just run out of the house. They're like, we can't stop this. Sorry, lady, you're on your own. If he starts coming at us with a knife,

how do we stop him? We can't even hit him with a baseball bat. So they ran away to a neighbor's house or something to get help there. So as they're running out of the house, they notice that police have arrived mordew says so uh and and he yells that back the cops are here the cops are here to this guy maybe that'll get him to stop hey the cops are here doesn't even acknowledge nothing nothing so then

they they ran out of the house and they were like there's some stabbing going on we tried up there bring your a-game boys because uh i hope you got guns boys i wouldn't suggest the baton as a as a weapon probably so the officers here officers mark tatum and david frank they were the first people on the scene they come in and they find once they get there he's done stabbing, apparently. He's all stabbed out. He is lying on top of her. Okay. Okay. Curled up in a fetal position with his head in her arm like he's some kind of baby. Like he put himself.

Yeah. Yeah. He tucked himself all up there. She ended up having 27 stab wounds. My word. With a big kitchen knife, one of the knives that her company sold, by the way. So it was one of the ones that she bought

putting in a fake purchase order. That's horrible as well, apparently. So yeah, cops said, you know, get up, and he doesn't move. So now there are two different stories here as to how they got him out of the room one of the cops says that they told him to get up he didn't do it then they helped him up to his feet and took him into the hallway they told him to lie down on his stomach and he did it uh then they asked him his name but he didn't respond to his name or any other questions he was just

kind of catatonic um now and the other officer says he didn't respond to his name or any other questions. He was just kind of catatonic. Now, the other officer says he didn't respond to verbal commands at all and had to be carried into the hallway, which walked gently and carried are two very different things. You know what I mean? Entirely different. Yeah, like that's totally different. So now they said the knife, when they got there, too, was still embedded in her chest.

Jesus. It was sticking out of her chest. The last one, he just left it in there. So it showed, obviously, numerous stab wounds. She died from internal and external hemorrhaging from all these wounds. Once the medical personnel arrived, Dr. Joshua was placed in an ambulance. The technicians, because he's kind of catatonic, he's like Cameron in Ferris Bueller's Day Off at this point.

Right. Yeah, they need to get an attractive woman to take her shirt off in front of him maybe. I don't know how. Maybe that'll help. But instead, they subject him to, to get him out of this, painful forms of stimuli to get him out of this, to get a reaction, but he doesn't respond. What the fuck? To any of this painful forms of stimuli to get him out of this uh to get a reaction but he doesn't

respond what the fuck to any of this one of the technicians described him as disoriented and said his eyes did not react normally to light either so he's dilated yeah now we don't know too because he's on medication as well so i don't know if that has anything to do with it it's some kind of 1984 mood stabilizer we We don't know. So one of the members of the ambulance crew, Darren Ray, Daron Ray Perry, he said that he reported there.

He said that he was disoriented, didn't respond to shit, didn't react when an IV was inserted. Wow. Yeah. Once they got him in the ambulance, he started saying over and over again uh what is it per per per per server rate per server rate i think it's called when you say the same thing over and over again when someone's in a weird state per server rate a sever rate i can't remember

what the fucking term is it's a psychological fun repeat stuff it's more funner. So he said repeatedly in a, quote, high squeaky voice, he said over and over, Mary, my hands are cut. Mary, you stabbed me over and over in a high squeak. Mary, don't marry. Mary, don't. My hands are cut. Mary, you stabbed me. Now, the other ambulance personnel, Thomas Eaton and Robert Cloyd, they said that he moved his head and eyes in response to words and sounds made in the ambulance um they said though he kept repeating during his ride to the hospital quote mary don't do it put the knife down mary please don't my hand is cut don't stab me mary over and over and over again a high squeaky voice okay she's dead from 27 stab wounds um obviously the crime scene photos are rough too because she's got the knife protruding from her chest it looks it's really rough so um

yeah they found also uh with her here they in her purse here she was apparently she was seeking it seems like she was seeking uh something spiritually because she didn't really. There was she's obviously she's Jewish at this point in her purse. She had a Catholic rosary, a religious poem that was kind of, you know, I don't know if it was non-denominational, but a religious poem, a Baptist prayer card, which doesn't go with the Catholic rosary at all. Trust me. And then religion shopping. And then a pamphlet from a Bible church, a totally different church, like a Pentecostal type church entitled How to Become a Christian.

So it seems like she was like, I don't know. I'm going to shop religion. It's exactly what it seems like. I don't know if I want a Toyota or a Honda. I'm going to go to all the dealerships and test drive a Camry and an Accord shop and religion. I don't know. She's looking for something. Obviously, it seems like she's clearly on the hunt.

So his story. I mean, people do that. They seek spirituality and they speak what they seek, whatever, whether it's they're looking for something. Which is it for me? Yeah. It's a, they're looking for something. Which is it for me? Yeah.

He said that later on, once he kind of wasn't catatonic, he said that him and his wife went in the bedroom to sort out property. He went into the kitchen to get a garbage bag. When he returned, he knelt down next to his wife. And the next thing he noticed knife coming at him. Yeah. That's all. He said the last thing he remembered was grabbing the knife by the blade and trying to wrestle it from her and he said knife wounds uh you know on his hands are are proof of that

the problem is there is multiple doctors that say different things he gets two different doctors that say they look like defensive wounds the wounds on his hands and then the state gets a doctor that says they look like slippage from when you're stabbing and you cut your hand so yeah there's that 27 stab wounds also she has and he has none except just just for his hands so it doesn't look good for you dude looks bad now i feel bad the kids by the way this is fucking horrible jesus the daughter lisa who by the way has a book about this situation and her life afterwards and how it affected her. I bought the book to support her because I feel terrible for what happened to her family here. So it's called Thirst, a Memoir.

It's on Amazon. You can get it. Thirst. Yeah, Thirst, a Memoir. I don't know. She said, this is right from the book description, quote, called out of class to the principal's office. Lisa was told that her mother had been killed and her father had been arrested for the crime.

It happened at 11.30 in the morning on a weekday. Good morning. Your life's over. Your life's over, by the way. Hey, you know how your house is really cool? Now you have two houses that are really nice. Now you have none. How about that?

What a fucking horrible thing to hear. Destroyed. Quote, over the next 20 years, Lisa battles through school, addiction, relationships, and various forms of self-destruction. Along the way, she learns that the effects of loss, violence, and betrayal create a deep desire for something different. So yeah, it seems like an interesting tale. I mean, that's a harrowing life.

So the defense for him, for Dr. Joshua here, is based on a combination of self-defense and insanity. He was crazy at the time he did it, and he was defending himself anyway, in case you don't think he was crazy enough. So the theory is that Mary instigated the struggle, attacked him with a knife, and his response was the result of a sudden impulse. He was unable to control, and he kind of blacked out on the whole thing. That's what his defense is. Here's the thing. Who brought the knife in the bedroom? Right.

The lawyer didn't see the knife. He only saw him with a garbage bag, but he also wasn't keeping a close eye on him. He was talking to his office on the phone, and this guy's, everybody's walking around getting shit, doing shit. You see a garbage bag, you could easily have a knife in your hand with the garbage bag over it carrying it. No one would notice that. You could have it in your pocket, handled down, and shirt over the blade.

Anyway. On the side of you that's blocked by your, you know, your body blocks when you walk by him. So that all sounds, you know, plausible, I suppose. I don't believe it, but it sounds plausible. Only thing is they also find bottles of potassium cyanide and secco barbitol, which are found in his car as well that day. That's not good oh by the way they also found a newspaper clipping in his bedroom which was about a recent and near here uh divorce related homicide as well that he clipped out and kept so not looking good doc uh sorry that looks bad both of those things so uh the trial

comes around yeah and it's you know the the prosecution says he killed his wife because she was moving out that day. He was unhappy she had seen somebody else. The basic, the A to B. The stereotypical right, yeah. The defense argument is, quote, this is not a murder case. This is a case of passion. Passion, like he's aanish fucking flamenco dancer it's the passion that he look at the dance he may he's a he's a passionate man he's going to make love to

that woman later yes he is so um it's pretty fucking crazy um he the they have the lawyer brady obviously testify and he said that he first heard a woman scream, help me, somebody help me. By the time he got there, he said it was no longer words I heard. It was a sound. It was like someone trying to scream or yell. And by the way, the wife is only 5'6", 132 pounds. So she's small. And if they can't pull off, if men with baseball bats can't get this guy off, movers who are strong.

She doesn't have much of a chance. No. He testifies in his own defense here. He says that the poison was for him. He said he took it from the medical school because he was going to kill himself over being despondent over his divorce. It doesn't look good. Doesn't look good, Chief. Why'd you cut that clipping out? It It doesn't look good. Doesn't look good. Why'd you cut that clipping out?

It just doesn't look good, man. He said he met with John Brady and Mary at the family home. Everything was fine. Undisputed, Mary left with the boxes, the jacket thing, all that kind of shit. He said he returned to the bedroom to find her kneeling in the closet. He knelt down next to her, but then he saw Mary thrusting a knife toward his chest. He said he put up his left hand to block the knife and got cut by it. Then he grabbed the blade of the knife with his right hand.

He said after that, the next thing he remembers is he's in the hospital emergency room. He doesn't remember the stabbing, the arrest, the trip to the hospital, nothing. That's all blank. Is it possible a human body can do that to itself? I mean, I don't know. You'd have to be in a real state of complete detachment. It's possible psychologically, but it's not fucking probable. We'll put it that way, especially if you have clippings and fucking cyanide in your car.

It looks like he's going to kill her and kill himself afterwards. That's what it looks like on the surface. That's what I'm thinking. Either that or he might just be killing her with poison, and then because she has a history of mental illness, maybe making it look like she killed herself. Also, you don't know what happens here. There's a lot of different things.

They said that he incurred 34 wounds to his hands and fingers, but nothing else. Like we said, we have different experts saying different things. Now, the same thing with psychiatrists they come in and say that uh one person says that he is you know diagnosed with a a whole intermittent explosive disorder here saying you know all this type of shit that's one of the that's one of the theories and then the other theory is he's just sad and um that's he wasn't blanking out or any of those things like that um feels to me like this

man was very successful in life at everything he tried the basic thing that everybody should be capable of doing is getting married and having a happy life and he strikes out he can't do that but it's after 20 years happy yeah but and that may even feel worse because he's done 20 fucking years trying this you know that's the wrong attitude you're at it i don't disagree i get that he's a murderer but i'm gonna say he's got the wrong attitude here too like this is 20 years you you call that a good run you did pretty well and you move on you call that hey you know what we got 20 good years or 20 shit years either it's 20 years of shit and you're finally done or it was 20 good years and you call that a win and you move on either way you need a different attitude about

this whole thing you really do dr josh i was making the same money in 2018 and i still got a divorce that's what i mean jesus you gotta get a divorce so like we said it's all it's all counter balanced you know uh testimony here um the the states uh the state psychiatrist does not agree that he has isolated explosive disorder and or impulse control disorder any of that shit so the jury nine hours of deliberation over two days. That's some negotiating there. They find him guilty of voluntary manslaughter, but mentally ill as well.

Oh. But mentally ill. This is a weird little, for a while here, while the laws were changing with mentally ill, you could be found, we'll talk about like the sentence. It's a mixed sentence here. So the sentencing is you, sir, may fuck off 30 years in either a state mental institution or a prison or both, depending on his like whenever he is deemed sane. Yeah.

Then he then he finishes up in prison. That's how that works. So he's in a hospital until he's deemed sane. Then he goes to prison and then goes from there for parole. Wow. In 87, he appeals this whole thing based on the fact that he said it was improper for many things, especially for the poison in the newspaper clipping to be introduced as evidence. Okay.

the poison in the newspaper clipping to be introduced as evidence. Okay. And also, well, and also jury instructions into specifics of mental illness and all that sort of thing. And voluntary manslaughter doesn't make speculation capable. I suppose so. And then also the cops having two separate stories of how he came out of

the room. They said the whole thing was too tainted and it is reversed on appeal. Oh my God. Remanded for a retrial here so this is fucking wild um he's then allowed to post thirty thousand dollars bond and get out of jail until his retrial starts what is happening in november 1987 so it's less than three years after he killed his wife um so But I think he posted the bomb. He didn't get out until 88.

Okay. So after paperwork. Retrial comes around in 92. The only difference is they're not going to hear about the cyanide and the newspaper clipping this time. Oh, no, I'm sorry. They're going to hear about the newspaper clipping, but not the drugs. Not the drugs. Okay.

Okay. All right. So he's reconvicted. Okay. Okay. Okay. Now, resentencing. Yeah. Okay. newspaper clipping but not the drugs not the song okay okay all right so he's reconvicted okay okay now re-sentencing yeah okay the the defense wants probation that's what they're asking for fuck you okay the uh the judge says i believe what dr fearer has been through is nothing compared to what mary went through uh here it's a two and a half hour sentencing hearing there's more than 20 letters of support from friends and family for dr josh here and uh wow the prosecution tries to have a say it was especially brutal and heinous and indicative of wanton cruelty uh he would have been eligible for a 30 year sentence here, but instead that they didn't find that as an aggravator.

So he's only eligible for a 15 year sentence. Maximum believable. Judge says you, sir, may fuck off 10 years in jail for this, but you've already served three and a half years. You're going to get time served for that. So you'll probably be in here for about another year and a half. Have a good one, sir. Bye. Holy shit.

And that is how that goes. And then he tries to fucking appeal that. What? Dude, take a win in stride here. But he gets out of jail by 1994. He's still appealing shit while he's out unbelievable uh in the appeal here he's living in the chicago area by the way at that point during the appeal he's fighting because he says that this has ruined his professional reputation and blah blah blah i'm sure his job is over well either way whether you killed her

on purpose or not if you went bat shit and killed your wife one day i don't want you operating on me i don't want you doctor after that doing a surgery after what are you crazy no that's not gonna work you got to be pretty stable for that um so um anyway it is affirmed that he is you know uh his sentence is affirmed and all that but he's already out and it doesn't matter by 2000 okay i don't know if this is him or not but in la jolla in san diego there's an article here uh dr joshua fairer md uh the uc san diego department of medicine will present a free lecture on aging and infections here and there's several from 99 2000 several different places he's i don't know if it's him or not giving these speeches he lost his license i saw they took his license away when he got arrested they saw his paperwork for iowa for illinois they yanked his license so i don't know if he got it back somehow i'm not sure

like i was a doctor once i can give you some tips maybe um now november 18th, he dies in North Palm Beach, Florida, though. Okay. He is dead there. For sure. But there's still, this is why I don't know if it was him or not. It sounds like him, the guy in San Diego, but they're still on the, what is it, the site that Health Grades, I think it's called, that does the doctor grades, like Yelp for doctors. They have Dr. Joshua Fire, MD. They have him listed at 84 years old, which is how old he would be.

His birthday is December 1937. So what the fuck? It's the same thing. They said that they call him an internal medicine specialist in San Diego with 59 years of experience in the medical field. Graduated from New York University Medical School in 1963. He graduated in 1963. He's from Brooklynoklyn he did columbia nyu this is him did he stage his own death in florida i don't know they says according

to this he's still alive he's got zero ratings but i mean he died 15 years ago why the fuck is his healthgrades.com still thing up it says the it's the the 3350 la jolla village drive san diego if it's not him i sincerely apologize to this doctor if it is like an 84 year old man who shares the same name what are the chances it says accepting new patients on here if he died 15 years ago i doubt it um and we do recommend pick up uh lisa's book here if you want some kind of an inside thing. It has 4.9 stars out of 5 on Amazon. And it's got like 60 reviews, too. So that's a good book here. So, yeah, give her a shot.

And there we go. That, everybody, is Morton, Illinois. Holy shit. And a crazy-ass story, I would say. No? To me, that's where I lean. It's just that he was so successful at everything he ever did. He couldn't take it.

And just couldn't do this. And he felt like maybe it was her fault. That's life, man. You got to deal with it. Yeah. Even if she fucks the rabbi, you got to take that in stride because that's life. You can't kill people over shit like that. That's life.

That's life. Oh, that's what the people say. Follow us on social media and rate and review. That's life. I've been James Petrogallo. I'm Jimmy Wissman. It's Jimmy Wissman. Tune in on Wednesday nights and, of course, Friday every Friday.

Do that. Thank you so much, everybody. Thank you. For everything. We will see you next week. Pull in the station. Let's get out for everything. We will see you next week. Let's get out of here. Jesus Christ, I feel gross. It's been our pleasure, everybody. Bye! Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music.

Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye bye.

The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts.