Small Town Murder - #298 - The Sugar Daddy Death Caper - Woodbridge, Virginia

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

This week, in Woodbridge, Virginia, bored by his marriage, a man looks to the internet, on Adult Friend Finder to try to spice up his life. An ad, looking for a "sugar daddy" catches his interest, and a strange relationship is born. A woman, in the midst of a child custody battle aspires to have a business, making costumes for strippers, and hosting her own porn site. This relationship causes huge problems, including for two people who are brutally murdered, in their own home. But who did it? Did they do it alone? Who benefits? Will someone be executed? Is everyone involved in this a moron? All these questions are answered, and more... in this crazy story!!Along the way, we find out that beer, chili, and mac & cheese should be under one tent, that just because you're a "sugar daddy" doesn't mean you're getting sex, and that stupidity can triumph over any amount of intelligence training!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Woodbridge, Virginia, a seemingly mild-mannered online sugar daddy inserts himself into the life of the woman he becomes obsessed with and two people end up viciously killed. But is everything what it

appears to be on the surface? back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us again today on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. They just keep getting crazier, do they not? I don't know how, but they keep getting crazier.

And today is no exception as we have just a really weird case. It's so strange. Such a strange case case it's the most personal impersonal murders i've ever seen in my life and that'll make sense a little bit later on quickly before we get started thanks for everything thanks for of course listening to express on friday crime and sports on tuesdays all your reviews five stars wherever you're listening thank you thank you head over to shut up and give me murder.com right now get your tickets if you're listening in the first couple days this comes out we are in new orleans this right like

now july 15th in new orleans that was at the civic theater i think it is get your tickets right now i think there's a few left get in there come see us it's going to be a lot of fun we have a crazy show for you and then also check out all the other dates. And you never know when one people will return a few tickets. So they'll pop up. So sold out shows. Yeah. Keep looking at Milwaukee.

Keep getting those tickets in Milwaukee at the Pabst in September. Thank you. I think it's September 10th. Thank you for all you guys are doing for that. That is going to be our biggest show. Let's do it. Milwaukee, show you are superior to Chicago and Minneapolis. Show them what you can do.

Shut up and give me murder.com. As well as if you want extra stuff, the bonus stuff, head over to Patreon. Patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get it all. You're going to get tons of stuff every other week. That's so great. Every other week you're going to get two new episodes.

You're going gonna get access to everything we put out bonus wise anybody five dollars or above is gonna get everything this week what we're gonna have for crime and sports we are gonna talk about uh if you haven't listened on crime and sports we did the chris benoit tragedy with his whole family and i was horrible so we are gonna talk about crazy ch Chris Benoit conspiracy theories that people have, especially a really insane wrestler named Billy Jack Haynes, who talks about it for two hours in an interview. And it's the craziest thing I've ever heard. Then for small town murder, we are going to talk about how in an interrogation they broke a guy who's basically the Canadian BTK killer is what I call him. The pictures that he took and dressed up

weird and shit are exactly just like btk he did horrible things to these women he was a high ranking canadian air force official and he came in sat down all cocky and in an hour with some little tiny dorky investigator he was like give me the maps and i'll show you where the bodies are i was like oh my god so we'll talk all about that canadian confession oh man it was awesome patreon.com slash crime and sports and you'll get a shout out at the end of the show where jimmy will brutally mispronounce your name while trying his goddamn honest hardest to get it correct uh quickly though disclaimer this is a comedy show it is we are comedians so there's going to be jokes all throughout but the story is real it couldn't get any realer we do not make anything up for comic effect or any garbage like that

every fact is a fact and that's the way it is and we're going to make fun of a lot of things and that's a fact jack the only thing we don't do do not do. We go out of our way not to do. We do not make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why is that, James? Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's how that goes. So if that sounds good to you, we are going to hear a crazy story. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, maybe you won't like this.

But maybe you will. Either way, no bitching afterwards. That said, I think it's time to sit back let's clear the lungs wherever you are you're and i by the way the live shows i love how you shout out and uh it's like a competition between cities it's wonderful so pretend you're pretend you're in a live show and shout out shut up and give me murder yes let's do this all right let's go on a trip jimmy okay here we go we are going all the way to virginia here oh yeah virginia woodbridge virginia it's for lovers it's apparently for lovers if you've ever been on the east coast at all they really put a lot of ads out there saying Virginia's for lovers.

Yeah, and West is for lovers of your family. You get there, and it's more like Virginia's for suburbs. That's what it is. It's like a giant suburb. It's a forest with some suburbs in it is Virginia. It's pretty. It's a beautiful place, honestly. Pretty country there.

Wouldn't be shit if it wasn't for D.C., right? I mean, it would be less people there. It would probably be more like Kentucky, I bet. It would be more of a Kentucky situation. This is in northern Virginia, up in the up top, you know, rounder panhandle area, not the western area. This is about a half hour to Washington, D.C. So, I mean, this is the D.C. suburbs, about an hour 20 minutes to Richmond, Virginia, the this is the dc suburbs about an hour 20 minutes to richmond virginia and five hours and five minutes to marion virginia which was our last virginia episode born to die which was boy

that was a wild episode you can go back and listen to that lem tuggle jr that's all i remember it's in prince william county here um the history of place, we got to go through this quick because the case is really crazy. No famous people, huh? Not really, no. Nobody special from here. The area takes its name, history-wise, from Thomas Mason's 1975 wooden toll bridge built to supplant the existing ferry. That's what happened, which carried the King's Highway traffic across the river.

So because he built a wood bridge, they called it, then he had Mason's Wood Bridge Plantation, which is a golf course now, by the way. And, well, I mean, I guess things grow there. So grass can grow there. The original bridge, which the area took its name from washed

away in 1807 after a heavy storm we'll never forget so they never rebuilt that one they just shifted all the stuff toward another area and built a bridge there but they still called it yeah yeah it's not even there anymore if it was there and he had a sign and that's the wood bridge cool man that's neat and take a picture next to it but no i think we're close to wood bridge how do you know there's a wood bridge there's a wood now this is i because the golf course is coming up there's the 16th hole right here so that used to be where the bridge was so that ended up happening the bridge wasn't replaced until the like the mid 20th century when they built an iron bridge you know one of those small iron bridges they have on the east coast and then that bridge as they put it in their website quote failed in

1972 it was the tragedy children fail math you know what i mean like failing is killed people when a bridge fails that means holy shit that's a problem that's a failure a huge failure the bridge didn't fail whoever built it failed we should call this this show small town failure why say murder just because people die it's technically a failure of character i suppose and legal it's ridiculous this bridge failed your ass it failed fuck out of here you can't have a bridge that lasts 20 years bad day you guys it was terrible the bridge failed and my kid failed english it was awful two days we've had failure of bridges oh man this was during hurricane agnes

and then it was replaced by a current structure here so i don't drive across that let's just say that stay the fuck off their bridges they're they're due for a failure anytime now if i look down at my watch it's been 50 years so hire an indian to ford the river yes as the oregon trailians once did there you go that's that's what you do or you can do that or what is it uh uh float across with the oxen yeah also which is a fun one try to turn it into a bridge turn it into a boat and a little float and you're thinking and then it just breaks apart and all your kids are dead and you lose tongues evidently well my mom and kids died all right well that's nice it's just me and the wife there so reviews of this town oh boy uh five stars for this one five stars great location

close to everything local shops of all kinds a plethora of restaurants and direct access into washington dc do you know what a plethora means a shitload of an assortment a varied assortment shitloads of assortment that was the three amigos reference i'm sorry i know i know exactly what it is but i doubt how many people that are listening you think no yeah three amigos reference we know every fucking steve martin stupid breath but i don't know if everyone else does so i'm like every time i hear that word i think of that movie because that movie taught me what that word means that was a formative movie for children like us it was it really was it's like three big comic actors together like oh my god this is a this is a

super team right here this is like lebron getting together with this one and this is working out perhaps that's why i have mexican children i fell in love with the mexican because of three amigos but you didn't go all the way did you no not particularly no she's not really that's uh anyway we won't talk about your ex-wife anyway five stars uh quote i have lived in woodbridge virginia for most of my life some people that have never lived here call it woodbridge okay she just some people i have lived in woodbridge virginia for most of my life some people that have never lived here call it woodbridge what's the name of the town my friend you just called it woodbridge and you've lived there your whole life so what else is it called man well let's find out uh this

is a stereotype other cities give us all around Northern Virginia. We are seen as the bad town, as the one that has the most crimes or drug deals. When I say that Woodbridge is not as bad as people have it out to be, I'm not being biased. Oh, well, clearly. What I love about Woodbridge, they've called it Woodbridge seven fucking times, and I'm really confused. What I love about Woodbridge most is the people here the people are diverse they come from several different ethnicities and culture this is what brings everyone together we are and we are all an indirect family this town is what unity looks like i am so grateful to have it to have it indirect family they put in quotes too we're an indirect

family i don't even know i am so grateful to live in it. I am so grateful to be a part of Woodbridge, Virginia. Okay. That's not called Woodbridge. I don't understand. Okay. This person is very confusing. Is there a way to put some extra stank on Woodbridge to make... Some people call it

Woodbridge. You know what I mean. It's the same. Is that what it is? I don't know. If you put quotes on it, it's still Woodbridge. What does, quote, Woodbridge mean? Like, you know, that means Woodbridge still, right?

I'm really confused. You said that like Bill Cosby said kids would say, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Exactly. Three stars. Woodbridge is a good place to live.

That's a nice opener. That's good. It's a friendly place with good communities and some better attractions. One of those attractions being the one and only Potomac Mills Mall. Oh. Where I personally met the famous Allen Iverson while I was simply leaving the mall. What is happening in this town these people are nuts not many people seem to recognize him but i surely did who the fuck didn't recognize alan iverson he played for georgetown he's a superstar he's world famous he's on tv and commercials how are you hell are you talking about? A six-foot-two black guy with a neck tattoo and braids.

And the face of Allen Iverson. He's a famous person. It doesn't matter how tall he is, what his hair looks like. None of that. The neck tattoo stands out, though. Look at his face. It's Allen goddamn Iverson. I saw him on a Nike commercial last week or whatever the fuck he was for.

Adidas. I don't know what the hell he was doing. Okay. Two stars is the next one. This neighborhood's crime and safety is poor one time one of the neighbors got in an argument with another resident of their household there was a domestic dispute is what that's called yeah they were screaming and throwing things onto the yard that sounds awesome as long as they're not hitting each other they're just throwing shit out in the yard i want to watch that what went into the house uh one i went into the house and waited until it calmed down but it took over an hour before it ceased you went over and got involved and you see someone's like he wanted to see too james you see someone's lazy boy flying out the door

you go i'm watching from a safe distance but i'm not going over there this guy wants 3d oh my god he's like what's happening over here the vase hits the wall behind him i need this in imax wow the yelling was so loud it pierced through the walls my mom who was in the shower at the time could even hear it this is a review of a town by the way what are we talking about we're talking about her mom's shower or his mom's shower whoever's my grandmother got her car broken into granted she left it unlocked that's not broken into then that's just my grandmother had somebody open her car door and take whatever was inside right broken implies you did something to get in there and people this place my grandma's dumb my grandma's lazy and doesn't lock her car door and my mom's naked in the shower And my mom's naked in the shower. Yeah, my mom's always in the shower

and my grandma's a dumb, lazy twat. Perfect. And people have sometimes left broken beer bottles on the road. Oh, not that. As well as graffitied the tennis court in the park. Not the tennis court. Oh my God.

They'll be... I'll bet the beer bottles were not broken. Oh no, no. That's why I give it a two out of five. Well, thank you. One star. The last one. I would like to see a decrease in crime.

That would be great. More affordable living costs. I've been robbed twice living here in two different areas of Woodbridge. Okay. Time to leave. Yep. Fool me once. Shame on me.

Fool me twice. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on me. Fool me three times. You might as well just stab me while you're robbing me at that point, because why not? I want to know more about the robbery. Was there a weapon involved? Was it face-to-face?

Or did you leave your doors unlocked? That's not robbery. I left my car door unlocked and things were taken. There isn't much nightlife. You'd have to go to D.C. for that. It's a half hour away. Seems reasonable. There's plenty of places to get a solid meal for a fair price. Nice

movie theaters in the area as well. Oh, well, that's good. Just don't come out of them at night or you'll be robbed. People in this town, 4,668. So it's a small area. It's small. It's a few more males than female, actually. I don't know if that has to do with people working in Washington or what

that's about. Median age is about normal. It's around 39. There's a lot of 45 to 54 which i would think that's kind of working in dc age i would think a lot of that married rates about normal a few more single people with children but that's about it uh race in this town it's pretty it's kind of a long national averages kind of. It's 57% white around the country. It's 62. 15% black, which around the country it is 12.7. 6.7% Asian. 20% Hispanic.

So it's kind of a, yeah, kind of go over the rest of the country here. For this small of a place, that's very impressive that they've done that. Well, I don't think it's on purpose. I don't think there was like zoning for it. Oh, you need 20%? Come on now. I don't give a shit if you're Mexican, Puerto, whatever, whatever. The census says Hispanic.

I don't even know what that means anymore. I'm not sure. Need some Latin country people. Whatever you got. Is there a Cuban in there? We'll take them. As long as they don't break into the Watergate again, because those sons of bitches did that the first time.

Anyway, so religion, 38 percent. It's more Catholics than the rest of them, but it's all mixed together. Point one percent Jewish, though not a lot of Jewish people here politically in this town. This county, Prince William County, last election, 62.6 percent Democratic, 35.6% Republican, and 1.7% Independent. Unemployment rate here is about the national average. It's pretty normal. Median income here, though, is high. The median household income here is $109,196, which is double the national average.

That's amazing. Not bad. And the cost of living overall 100s average here it's 119 median home cost is a little high though median home cost 408 100 which is above the national average so if we've convinced you damn it to get your ass over here to woodbridge we have for the belmont golf course which is what woodbridge is now we have for you the woodbridge, Virginia real estate report. The average two bedroom rental here goes for $1,637 a month.

So holy shit. Pricey, pricey above the national average. Here's a three bedroom, three bath bedroom three bath 1440 square foot house this is kind of your the lowest thing you're going to find here in terms of price it's not a bad house it's a townhouse um it needs the paint's ugly you know what i mean that's to another one yeah yeah it's a townhouse like that uh it's you know it's just kind of a it looks like a place that you'd share with a roommate if you were going to intern in Washington for a year. You know what I mean?

If you were a graduate student and your parents had a lot of money and they're going to rent you an expensive house. You want to be a lobbyist one day. Yeah, you want to really be a congressional intern or something. I want to be fingered in an elevator. This is the place to do it. I'm going to be a complete asshole for the rest of my life. $329,000 for that. So that's entry level.

Here's a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,466 square feet. It's kind of that house, but nicer. But like an actual detached house. The house. Nice house house. It's boring, but nice. You could kind of look at it as a blank canvas. $419,000 for that.

Oh, wow. To get rid of the neighbors neighbors it's another hundred grand another and then four bedroom four bath t-bowl for each and every b-hole 5 5005 square feet oh god okay it's close to a lake and it looks like um like a really like a like a hedge fund guy who's really really wealthy said make me feel like i'm a rustic man. You know what I mean? Somewhere where I can put plaid on and sit there and feel like I'm one with the earth. You know, like put some wood in there. I can cosplay the brawny guy.

Yeah, you know how it goes. I really want to do that. Put some heads up on the wall that other people have hunted. That's the thing I'm looking for. Wow, $1,130,000 for that though. Oh, dear Lord. So big old deck out back. It looks kind of nice, but,000 for that, though. Oh, dear Lord. So big old deck out back. It looks kind of nice.

But inside, it needs a remodel. Anyway. Dude, it's 5,000 square feet. It's a huge house. That's so much remodel. It's huge. Yeah, it's a lot to do. Things to do in this town.

All of these, I'm going to give you three things, and they all should be one thing together. Okay. Right? Check these out. First of all, the Stonebridge Fall Fest and Chili Cook-Off. Of course. Stonebridge now now this is stone bridge nearby there's a another town of stone bridge wood they think they're superior because their bridge you know didn't collapse five times since the 1800s can't blow it down you know that goes never figured that out so they it's a day of community

fun as they host a chili cook-off in the beautiful Stonebridge Town Center in Woodbridge, Virginia. Oh, wait, what? It's the Stonebridge Town Center, so it's a strip mall, I think, in Woodbridge, Virginia. There's a Stonebridge in Woodbridge, Jimmy. Jesus, keep up. The fuck, are you slow over there? What's going on? I'm trying so hard.

What are you, on the nod? What's happening, man? One of these days I'm going to get out of Strawbridge and things are going to be fine. There's more bridges than that. I haven't told you about it. I don't want to blow your mind. A lot of vendors, all this shit. Two stages of music, performances, blah, blah.

Okay. Then there's the Woodbridge Beer Fest. Okay. Okay. Then there's the Woodbridge Beer Fest. Okay. Okay. We're taking over the main drag of Stone Bridge and filling it with beer, food, some wine, root beer. Not a lot of wine, apparently.

Beer, food, tons of that. Some wine. Gonna look for it. Root beer for the kids in parentheses. You can't have any if you just like root beer. And a ton of fun for adults and kids alike. Join the fifth annual woodbridge beer fest blah blah blah okay so they have a live dj for this one which is way better than a shitty local band like they most of the time they have unless it's marshmallow or some

shit like that but this is going to be it's better than like here's uh's the Yes tribute band. I don't want to listen to that. Huey Lewis and the Blues. No, I don't want to hear that. I don't want to hear what you're doing. I don't want to hear Yes if it's them live. No. Yes's cover band, Them. Here they are, everybody.

Them! Huey Lewis and the blues rush's cover band is called hurry up already hurry up already here it is instead they got djs they have giant beer pong i don't know why it's a giant giant chess as well they get giant chess pieces big pieces then stupid. Yeah, big pieces, yeah. Then there's the Potomac Mills Mac and Cheese Festival. Oh. Put these together. Chili, mac and cheese, and beer should be in one fucking tent, man. What are we talking about? That sounds great.

That's a festival. These are all different types of year. You got to walk around with your cold mac and cheese from three months ago to get your chili to have with it and your beer. This is a mess. You vote for your favorites. Virginia's cheesiest celebration here uh oh boy top chefs and food trucks and all sorts of shit mac and cheese 30 i went to a mac and cheese festival in upstate new york last year and uh i mean i ate a lot bunch of shit it was fine but it was pretty boring anyway so uh they said they didn't have a led zeppelin tribute band iron blimp i don't think they did i think they didn't actually it was not

wasn't there crashing fucking crashing aerial crashed aerial showcase oh god damn it i couldn't stop laughing so anyway 21 years or older to consume alcohol you know like the rest of the united states it says on here for some reason crime rate in this town what we're interested in property crime slightly above average just above average or as that reviewer said the bad town around here it's horrible and then violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime is just slightly over half the national average so seems like it's pretty safe pretty average little small town is what it seems like nitpicky very

very nitpicky that said speaking of nitpicky let's talk about a murder which i think that's nitpicky someone's gonna kill you really have to have a reason to kill. I feel like unless the person killed one of your children or like your spouse or your mother or something. Retribution. Unless it's something like that where you're just like, the fire burns inside of me. Oh, I can't sleep. I can't eat that person. I must wear their blood on my body like a cloak.

Unless it's like that and you need it it's nitpicky it really is you could probably just move on get over it so let's murder we're gonna go back to january of 2001 and we'll start here the whole thing starts in 1999 late 1999 and goes through january 2001 so we'll go to this area barely pre-9-11 pre yeah these people still have cell phones but they're not texting yet no cameras time of america no cameras no videos but if you're stuck somewhere you could make a call that's the great part about it that was wonderful but people couldn't just bother you right willy-nilly the snake game while the uh triple a truck shows up you're like they got tetris now holy shit that was like

a mind blower that's a big deal yeah oh my god we sound like we're 100 right now too but this just happened we're not that old it's you know we're talking i guess it's 20 years ago so you know what i guess we're old never mind that is quite the barefoot of bill both ways statement that's yeah that's bad we're old that that means we're old we're sorry for our age everybody i can't help it we both turned 40 it's a mess since since then the last couple years keeps going around the sun otherwise i'd be younger yeah i can't stop that did we tell the earth to go around the sun is that a thing that happened it's doing it really fast i wasn't on that board when that was voted on were you never once no i didn't have a say they want to slow it down a little bit i'm cool

with that we'd still be the same age i guess yeah we'd be younger and younger maybe yeah like dogs i'm tired of being 41 too it's terrible no one wants to be no one wants to be this all damn january anyway 2001 let's talk about a guy now do you remember years back a couple years back on small town murder we had a gentleman named extra billy i do remember we had extra billy well this week we have a different kind of billy all right okay this man is he's called numerous he's's either called Larry or called Bill. Either way, his last name's Elliot. E-L-L-I-O-T-T.

Or commonly called Larry Bill. Larry Bill. Larry Bill is better than extra Billy. Larry Bill. Here's my friend Barry Will and my other friend Harry Phil. What the fuck are you talking about? That's not a name. Those aren't names.

You're right. Billy Joe. At least it's Hillbilly, but at least it flows. Something like that. Sammy D. Fucking, you know, I don't know. This is. I'm pretty sure there's a race car driver named Bill Elliott, and that might be why he did this.

I don't think he's, you know, I don't think there's a lot of, his name elliott and that might be why he did this i don't think he's you know i don't think there's a lot of his name is larry bill jimmy larry bill larry bill elliott okay larry or bill both whatever sure no both put them together i need them both larry bill larry bill so larry bill over here um my god larry bill now he all of his friends will say and this is this is from affidavits actually so this is this is you're swearing on the record here that he is quote this is from one of his friends one of the nicest people they've ever met a man who never raises his voice and never gets angry that's not true that's larry bill for you right there that's true never have he's raised in smithville west virginia he's a west for these

west virginia hill folk i don't buy that he doesn't he doesn't yell i don't buy that at all he at least yodels that's there's some loud something's coming out of his mouth when he's dancing barefoot on a moonlit night yeah to the jug band he is something yeah he's he's hollering i'll just say that much right he's woohooing i guarantee it oh man so that's what's going on uh he's from there he's raised in west virginia there's so much space there at some point he had to raise his voice just to communicate with somebody that was the closest person to him hey hey i'll be there so i'm fucking my sister i'll be there soon cool all right or perhaps he just never yelled and nobody ever communicated with him because he wouldn't he wouldn't raise his voice to maybe share the information that

we needed larry bill yeah you just see his lips move from like 100 yards away. He won't raise his voice. He refuses. He never yells. I'm telling you, he won't raise his voice. He's too nice of a man. But he is answering. That's polite, but he's just doing it in his own tone of voice.

I guess we go closer, right? Somebody jot that down. Never once. He won't raise his voice. He won't do it. Just slowly. He knows when he needs to. I might need this for court at another time. Never once. He won't raise his voice. Won't do it. Just slowly. He won't when he needs to. I might need this for court at another time.

Larry Bill. He was drafted into the Army in December of 1970 in the middle of Vietnam. He's drafted into the Army. So that's interesting here. This was after he spent a couple years in college. Really? So he went to college for a couple years, dropped out of college, and once he wasn't in college anymore then you get drafted that's during vietnam people would do families would pool up money just to send the person to any kind of college they could and

just stay there and they were saying just hang on until the fucking draft is over we don't care i don't give a shit if you hate fucking sociology. It doesn't matter. Stay there. Cheat and steal. Jesus Christ. Get your grades up. I don't give a fuck. Stay. Yeah, no, I remember that. I remember this book of letters, Hunter S. Thompson letters.

He was writing to his mom, sending home like 70 bucks and 60 bucks to keep his younger brother in college, just telling him, I know he wants to drop out, but tell him, just hang on, hang on, see if we can get out of it. So it's interesting. So he goes there. he goes to the army uh he's in the army for about three years when he gets involved in counterintelligence oh larry bill has a job that has the word intelligence in it which is an unexpected twist to the story i'll be honest with you i didn't expect counterintelligence means he's cracking codes and shit this guy larry bill's a genius larry bill yeah larry bill is like meta intelligence like he's gonna see the other side of their intelligence through his own it's fucking wild so

in may of 1980 near anaheim california dorothy jane scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener.

Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing.

This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app

or on Apple Podcasts. He's doing high-level work overseas, safeguarding military communications by detecting enemy bugs. Get after it, Larry Bill. Save America. That's what he's doing. Larry Bill is our Captain America?

I picture him in just an all-black suit with a mask on, making hand signals to his friend while very stereotypical terrorists are sitting in a room with maps out, with Xs on them, with big explosions going, New York City should be first, I tell you. And then he busts in the room like Naked Gun, like Leslie Nielsen, beats them all up. Rips open his suit to expose a giant white star on a red and blue suit. He wipes the spot off Gorbachev's head and then he like, you know, hangs out with OJ for a while. That's how it's going to end up happening.

He runs OJ over in a car and drags him around town. We're very good at making references from movies made in 1986 today this is going well sorry if you're young this is great you know what though if you're young you should see the naked gun and just three amigos anyway yeah yeah i didn't care i saw movies that were well made well before i was born when i was a kid because i heard they were funny jesus christ. I wouldn't have seen any Mel Brooks shit otherwise. I wouldn't have seen Young Frankenstein, Blazing Saddles. So he's doing all this.

He's doing like smart stuff. He received intelligence training and routine weapons instruction as well. But he says in his own quote here, quote, I was never trained to be an assassin. So that makes me think he was trained to be an assassin oh so that makes me think wink wink he was trained to be an assassin he's involved in military intelligence and he specifically says i didn't do this that means he did that i feel like right just from the history of yeah military intelligence type guy that's probably sworn to uphold uh governmental secrets so if he was not trained he was fucking trained probably um so him and his friend who's going to be a lifelong friend of his were both of their jobs

were in the military and involved a lot of technical investigation according to his friend and technical surveillance countermeasures oh what's his name terry charles wow that is uh i think his name is actually if i'm not mistaken um oh god damn it i have it down a little bit further later on but it's funny too i think if i'm not mistaken terry chris it's not terry chris or like you know frankie sue or some shit which would be even even that even funny like. Just doesn't work together. Frankie Sue. Frankie Sue.

I wish I was going to have a kid I would certainly name either male or female Frankie Sue. It goes either way. That's the good part. That's the most fantastic unisex name ever. It's a boy. I'm a Johnny Cash fan. It's a girl. You're like, that's a cool name, right?

Frankie Sue. That's adorable. There you go. I like that, right? Either cool name, right? Frankie Sue. That is adorable. There you go. I like that, right? Either way, you win. Frankie Sue. Everyone name your kids Frankie Sue. Thank you. That's the greatest name ever.

So he says his friend in a deposition later on, this is under oath, he says that they set up listening devices and video surveillance and developed measures to detect and locate technical devices. He says, quote, we were not and have never trained to be killer agents with any knowledge to cover up any evidence of our actions. We were never trained to be undercover spies. We're considered geeks within the intelligence community and would never be confused for thugs or brutes that's what he says that's what you want to keep the appearance up then i believe you that's how it's going yeah so he he ends up getting married uh during all this he gets married in um in the uh like before he goes to Vietnam. Right after, during college, he gets married.

Brilliant. So he gets a double paycheck. Well, he has kids right away, too. Yeah. He has a kid in 69 and 70. Boom, boom. Really? Right then, yeah.

That's when he ends up getting drafted. And then two years, or three years later, they have another kid. Wow. So by the year 2000, these kids are 32, 31, 28. They're all older by then, grown and moved out of the house because he's 51 years old by 2001. So there you go. He's born in 1950. But he found another woman and he started over.

Damn it. When he's about 35 there, they have a child as well, a daughter. So in 2001 or 2000, he's married to a woman named Kathy Elliott, his wife. And they have a daughter who's 15 who lives at home. And then his three grown children are out of the house. From the previous marriage. From the previous marriage. So he's kind of living that second marriage life where he had a kid when he was a little older.

And at 35, that's not that old. 15 years into the good marriage. Yeah. So, well, yeah, later on. So now by 1999, though, his relationship with his wife is not going well anymore. Oh, no. It's not going well. The way he put it, he said the passion was gone.

There's no more passion anymore. Yeah, don't think that's what happened. That's year 51 you're 51 and you uh have a you know kid in your teen in their teens and you'll figure it out but what do you want you're going through a lull what kind of hell kind of action are you looking for over here so right yeah this is one of these people who like he's like a guy who like reads like uh you know some article it's from some celebrity who's like 73 and they're like we fuck every day i mean like no they don't no it's not true and if it is that's disgusting when you're thinking about who was it suzanne summer's talking about her and her husband are fucking all the time her husband's like 83 and she's like 77 i'm like i don't want

to hear about them they're like we fuck in the kitchen we fuck over here i'm like that's disgusting that is gross imagine if one of your grandkids walked in on that they would be oh god ruined ruined imagine how you would have felt if you walked in on your elderly grandparents with your grandmother's leg up on the counter and your fucking grandpa just pounding her from behind tell me you wouldn't you don't even know what you would be a different man right now i feel like i'm probably i'm probably suicide right there right there you grab the clothes in the kitchen luckily you just jab a knife into your throat and you let me die. My grandfather is insanely hairy, too.

I was working on a computer. Oh, God, that makes it even better. I was working on a computer. He went and took a shower and didn't realize he didn't have a towel, so then he ran out of the bathroom and didn't see me standing at the computer. And I just heard noise, so I turned and looked as he grabbed the towel and then turned and faced me. And I was like, no!

Now, imagine that happened with your grandmother bent over in front of her yeah think about that that's 10 times worse all my grandparents hated each other too so it wouldn't even have been nice they would have been like my grandmothers would have been yelling at my grandfathers for something it would have been terrible oh god like grudge fucking yeah talking about what they're gonna have for dinner it would have been terrible or bitching about her cooking last night i'm gonna take it out on you it would have been uh luckily that didn't happen so that's good um anyway i don't know how the hell we got to there but uh i don't know how we got to how would it have affected you psychologically

if you walked in on your grandparents in an elderly state fucking in the kitchen. But either way, Suzanne Summers. Yeah, it's all her fault. Thanks a lot. Yeah, that's right. Three's company. And now we got to deal with this. Right.

So by 1999, passion's gone. And he's he's on. Now the Internet's come around in 1999. So he's a 51 year old guy looking around the internet for chicks now which is pretty much 80 of what the internet was in 1999 was 51 year old men looking for women right yeah and about 36 of what it is today and 36 yeah and the rest was like 25 year old guys pretending to be women for these guys to get money from them or whatever the catfishing does. So he ran across an adult matchmaking website. He ran across the website, and he's like, okay, I'm going to try to find somebody here.

So he's looking around, and this is like pre-Tinder. The only thing that exists at this point is like this is not even match.com this is like e-harmony i don't even think existed yet there's like msn chat groups yeah like that's what i mean so this you can't there's no like website i'm sure there was specialized like dating services that have been around a while had moved their thing to the internet but there was no like dipshit on a commercial going, I can match you with the person you're going to love for the rest of your life. It's a giant fucking conglomerate, and we do that. That didn't exist yet, I don't think, in 99.

E-Harmony? Was it around yet? I said E-Harmony. I'm not even sure if that dildo was around yet. That fucking Orville Redenbacher-looking motherfucker going around inserting himself in other people's business. It's like a giant Orville Redenbacher, that guy. He's not fooling me. Take your popcorn and fuck off, Mormon. I feel like he just looks like a giant.

Yeah, he looks like a guy that's just trying to get more wives. Yeah. I'm talking like Warren Jeffs Mormon I'm talking about. He's like, I'm going to take you down to Colorado City with me. How's that sound? If you click on my profile you'll see colorado city that's where you're gonna end up yeah e-harmony.com where there's a bunch of guys and that are trying to get you and me that's making you do it in the uh pre pre-use conditions you are now my wife

that's how i worked it i don't know what to tell you you said you agree to all the sites remember in the beginning terms and conditions you are my wife it said scroll to read did you miss that part you could have scrolled black and white it was right there black and white so that's that's a little weird so he ran across a a profile yeah from put up by a person who said they were looking for a sugar daddy. Oh, God. Okay. Now, he does well for himself here, Larry Bill. I apologize.

Larry Bill does pretty well for himself. Has a nice nest egg. You know, makes good money. He's good at his shit. He does intelligence, you know, like security and all that kind of shit. He's good at it. That's good money in Washington, you know. So he post Watergate.

That's been good money for anybody who does stuff like that. So he's doing pretty well for himself. Sugar Daddy. And it is placed by a person with the with the moniker Bunny469. He said that was, he's intrigued by that. I see 69 in there. Hmm, intriguing. Like it's some sort of intellectual pursuit.

Listen, Bunny's for it, James. Yeah. Like it's an intellectual pursuit to have some strange chick's ass in your face while she blows you that's not a that's not an intellectual pursuit it's a different kind of pursuit it's a fine pursuit don't get me wrong but it's also it's it's very rare to be into that so i mean so he's saying hmm let's see here so what she's up to he said he was intrigued he sent an email never expected a reply larry bill you're in counterintelligence you didn't know he's not in intelligence we'll just say that yeah it's a counter and counterintelligence

is a really good if this if this whole thing was a movie it would be called counterintelligence is a really good. If this whole thing was a movie, it would be called counterintelligence, and it would be a comedy, a slapstick. Counterintelligence. Right. Because that's what's happening here. Wow. So he's very intrigued by Bunny469, who's looking for it. He said he never expected a reply.

Like, there's just a wave, an ocean of men wanting to give this person money, specifically as a sugar daddy not i want to date you not like the like uh love after lockup where they're in prison pretending like that you're their long lost love when they want money she's straight up like i want money from you yeah and he says intriguing so he like i said married three adult children you know all this shit well bunny 469 it never stops it's gonna be funny forever it's better than freako fark isn't it but i feel like bunny 469 that's a license plate someone fuck freako. This is the best profile screen name we've ever had on this entire show. It's unbelievable. Bunny469, looking for a sugar daddy. So her name, actually, Bunny469 is a former stripper, she just stopped dancing, named Rebecca Gragg with two Gs at the end, not in the beginning.

So three Gs total out of five letters, bunny, nowhere in her name. Nope. Bunny four, six, nine. So,

but yeah, Rebecca Greg, not as intriguing as bunny four, six, nine. Yeah. Yeah. It's what it is.

Sounds like a villain in somewhere. Yeah. It sounds like a cartoon villain. Yeah. Like, like a, what wasn't that? One of the Craigs. Yeah, it sounds like a cartoon villain. Yeah, it does. Wasn't that one of the- Craig.

Craig. Craig, yep. The brain guy inside. It sounds like a Smurf villain or something. Craig's going to get us. Oh, no. He's got Gargamel. So, Azrael and Gargamel.

So, they're looking for a sugar daddy. There we go. And she replies, and they decide we're going to meet up in a restaurant. Public place. Not bad. Public place to see if I guess you're worthy of giving me money for nothing. In Crystal City is where they meet up. They hit it off right away. Really? Right away. Isn't that amazing? Oh, no. She likes all the same stuff he likes.

Of course she does. Of course she does. Yeah, everything's going great. She's 30, by the way. He's 51, just to put that in the perspective of, not that that's fine if that's what you are, but there's a definite dynamic to that. Yeah. Yeah, 51-year-old.

He's that kid's her age. Yeah, older than her. Yeah, sick kid's older than her. But to have a 51-year-old guy who's currently married and all that and then he sees he's intrigued by a younger woman who's got 69 in her screen name so uh they a number of times they meet up and uh talk and just you know have a chat she says that she needs money the reason why she's doing this she needs money to turn her life around and in return she'll offer quote companionship oh non-sexual companionship wow i will screen mate that's

screen name implied otherwise you put 69 yeah and i feel like sugar daddy implies i give you money you fuck me right that's what that it's what that, it feels like an arrangement. That feels like an arrangement, you know, like a seeking arrangements type arrangement. That's what that seems like, an arrangement. I'll blow you, you give me money, you're excited that I'm 20 years younger than you. You have money that you can part with, whatever. That's, everybody's happy. You get money out of it and I get to see your butthole.

Yeah, everybody's happy with that. That's fine when people do that. If they have an arrangement that everyone's fine with, but this is uh this is a non-sexual this is i'll hang out with you and i'll like just hang out with you and he is okay with that oh god uh yeah that that's what it is um she will always say this is not a sexual relationship no there was never any sexual relationship until later on when she says they had sex but that's a different that's on a whole there'll be a lot of different stories going on and what happened here so okay uh larry bill he later on wouldn't describe the nature of their relationship in any other way except that it was quote very intense very intimate what he

means is embarrassing yeah very intense meaning i'm not a total sucker like she really took me in and we were super close and tight and we had this in this relationship that was so intimate and came just short of me putting my penis inside of her it was just up to that level and then over and over and over exclusively but very exclusive so now rebecca let's talk about, let's talk about her situation. Let's talk about old Bunny469 here. She meets Larry Bill, like I said, spring of 99 here when she's doing it. She was having financial troubles, looking for a relationship.

At the time they met up, her electricity and phone had been shut off at her house. Oh, boy. So I don't know how she was on her computer if her electricity was shut off, but somewhere, she went to a library or some shit. I don't know. First person to get solar. First person ever.

And she has trouble supporting her kids, obviously. By the way, she has children. She has children as well. She called it later on, quote, it was the most desperate, pathetic moment of my life when Larry Bill came along here. Lucky for you, Bunny469 was still available. Thank God.

Everything else, Bunny69 I went for first, obviously. That was gone, so I went Bunny169, Bunny2693, and then Jackpot on four. And here we are. And it has double meaning because i'm for it i'm certainly for it for bunny 469 it's like a political ad yeah it's a political ad bunny 469 oh boy in 2022 so which you know what i think that would get a lot of votes out of people. It sure would. I'm forcing them. A lot of guys would go, all right there. So, she's all right there, this one.

Now, it was a long email, the first initial email. He told her he wanted to help her. He's very lonely, even though he's married with a 15-year-old in the house. And he's just looking for a friend. That's it. Now, Greg had been doing some escorting on the side as well uh here she'd been stripping for clients in washington dc including multiple different congressmen who would have her come in at parties and and parade around and uh she ran a like a website at the this was the time when there was all these like individual weird porn websites that

weren't like it was before the whole thing got eaten up by these conglomerates now you got these multinational porn empires where it's just clogging it all up it's uh you're indeed you're in your indie porn site could really thrive back then is what i'm getting at man and it's just gone the way of all corporate now, man. Gonna take down the system. Big porn's made it free. Big porn's made it free! Now what?

Bunny 469 can't have a pay site because she made a pay website where a fee-based website where she posted nude photos of herself. Oh. That's what she had going on. Original OnlyFans. Yeah, she had her, but you had to do it individually back then.

Your own website, yeah. She had her. But you had to do it individually back then. Your own website. Yeah. She she told him, though, that she believed her work was, as she put it, morally wrong. OK. She felt a moral sting of this and desperately wanted to find a new way out here. Yeah. So Larry Bill, their first meeting, by the way, he took her out to Ruth's Chris Steakhouse as well. Back then it was a good place.

Yeah, he's like, I'll drop a few bucks. No, no, no. The potato you order separate from the steak here. What side story? No, no, no, baby. That's not how this works. Whichever ones you want, but it's extra. But you know what?

It's on me. It is. I got you. I got you covered. You know what? It's on me. It is. I got you. I got you covered.

So he proposed a business plan where he would help her out of her financial hole if she were willing to be his friend and possibly even help him out with a few business ventures maybe. Right. Yeah. You know, it's kind of like the overboard arrangement, except she knows that she's doing it. That's the only. She's very well aware. She's aware of who she is and what she's doing it that's the only she's very well aware she's aware of who she is and and what she uh what she's doing so um they said okay they agreed that sex wouldn't enter into this

relationship they're going to be companions platonic confidants that's what they're going to be platonic confidants like the golden girls that's what they're gonna be so um they agreed that it's right in the song a pal and a confidant there you go that means we don't finger each other that's what it is yeah yeah i don't have anything again not that there's anything wrong with that but not us not us you know it's just not us for sophia's too old blanche has every dick in town rose doesn't know that that exists and dorothy's too bitter for any sexual contact so that's how we're rolling and sophia's uh rose's mom right she's uh so uh b arthur's mom she's dorothy's mom dorothy's mom that's dorothy's mom and that would be weird. Which if you put all that to music, that's not a good theme song.

So it's much better to say thank you for being a friend. I won't finger your mom. I won't sneak into her room. Thank you for not fingering my mom. She sleeps really hard and might not wake up. She's too old. my doodammit. See, that's a different song, right? Holy fuck.

I think the decision was correct. They made the right choice there, in my opinion. I'm no expert. But anyway, looking for a friend, she says, yeah, what the fuck, let's do this. Three days later, he writes her a check for nearly seven thousand dollars okay to get her out of a lot that's a lot it's a chunk of change especially 20 years ago that's not just fixing internet no and electricity that's not 500 bucks to get your lights turned back on that's that's i got i got my discover card is doing like that you know that's

she's going down a list of bills that she has. That's prepaying the electric for the year. Yeah. And it totaled nearly seven thousand dollars. Rebecca said later on, quote, I know it sounds strange, but he said he wanted to help me. He appeared to be a nice guy who had a good heart. A good heart and a rock hard cock. You put those things together, you're going to get a motivated individual.

I wish a good heart and a rock hard cock could be the name of the episode, but it can't be, unfortunately. It's a solid Craigslist ad, though. That's a solid. Good heart, rock hard cock. Put your age, fucking weight, height, whatever, your stats, and then just good heart, rock hard cock. I think that's nice guy. He'll give it to you good. Contact here.

That's right. Larry Bill paid her rent for her, bought her a green 1996 Jeep Cherokee. Hell yeah. Which was hot shit in the late 90s. Gave her a cell phone, which she did not have. And an American Express gold card with her fucking name on it. What?

Oh yeah, Amex gold card with her name on it. All in the name of... That is sugar daddied out. That is... Paid your rent, free car, here's your phone, even if it's so I can get a hold of you you still got a phone and then a amex gold card just in case you're short on cash that's no sex no sex that's a great

guy and he's happy to do good heart rock hard cock yeah he's not lying say it jimmy what is he good heart james he's well he's oh that's my kind of guy. Sick kind of guy. All right. He's Jimmy's kind of guy for now. That's the sweetheart of a man. Yeah. So he said, you know, and it's more than that. Her business, she's trying to start a business, too. She's not just trying to catch up on her bills and then sit there. She has a business model that she brought to him where it's a business that designs and sells stripper costumes.

Okay. Which that actually. It's an industry that designs and sells stripper costumes. Okay. Which, that actually. It's an industry that needs to happen, yeah. And with what's coming up with the internet, that turns into a big thing. Oh, God, yeah. Women make their own costumes on all that shit. Right. Yeah, it's wild. So, that's a big deal.

So, that could turn into something lucrative later. They even have the same birthday. Oh. They're both born november 13th so just 20 something years apart 20 years yeah 21 years apart or so but they're both born on november 13th and uh it's a big deal and they had great conversations they talked he liked that she talked to him about they talked in detail and at length about his business investment that he made in a microbrewery in West Virginia. And he found her to be bright and knowledgeable and asking questions about it and seemed like a good person that she could go into business with. The two of these, she's designing unmentionables and he's got a microbrewery they're both 15 years ahead of their time and they're gonna be billionaires maybe yeah maybe we'll see they were so smart james god damn it well let's just you know what let's

let's predict right now let's extrapolate what you've taken now and let's project it to 2022. Where is he and where is she right now? She is the CEO of La Provocateur and he has a micro brew that was bought by Budweiser and he has billions of dollars. Okay. And then he went in like he went in on Theranos with Elizabeth Holmes. Theranos with Elizabeth Holmes. No, they take this money and they move to Ireland, buy a fucking giant place on the Emerald Isle and they fucking live forever like queen and king of the Blarney Stone. That's a hot shit story.

That could happen from here. That's not even far fetched. Let me ask you one thing, though. Has that ever happened on our show before? Never once. No. Probably not. It's not even far-fetched sitting in 2001 it's not though it feels like it could happen yeah it's at their fingertips the future is here damn it so um this goes on even uh they talked about um

he also talked about his work a little bit but not much he works at fort meade he just does you know army shit so golden shit he's a civilian contractor for the army in counterintelligence so they have a lot of that so when he got out of the army yeah he was in the army for a long time doing that as soon as he got out they hired him as a civilian which they do all the time that's kind of how that kind of person goes yeah theyirement and a paycheck. Genius. They've trained him for 20 years, however long, so they want to keep him. Send him off to retire and die? No. Yeah, so he's now not in the private sector, but he's a civilian doing this.

So he took her there, actually, too, at Fort Meade, and even invited her into social situations with his friends. Hey, we're going to all go do some stuff. Where? No. She always refused the social situations with the friends though she thought that this is embarrassing it's a little weird yeah he's like they're like where's your wife and he's like no no this is my friend that i met this is bunny 469 don't worry there's nothing weird happening it's cool no i met her on a site where she she you have to pay to see her tits. It's totally fine. And then, yeah, we're friends.

Um, so over eight, the next 18 months up until January, 2001, he also, like I said, pays her rent, pays for Catholic school for her two children,

private school, private school for her kids, which the private schools around there outside DC are expensive. Um, the car, a credit card like i said uh breast enhancement surgery she got as well and um also he's trying to help her with her custody dispute with her former uh boyfriend as well for with her kids so that's going on over the course of 18 months he spent about 450 000 on her over the course of how months, he spent about $450,000 on her.

Over the course of how much? 18 months. One year and six months. Year and a half, $450,000. Holy shit. In 2000 money too. That's crazy. That's a lot of money.

That's a lot of money now. Don't get me wrong. That's a shit load of money. If I spent that on anything, I would really hope to be receiving something that's worth at least that that's like 700 grand today right that's it has to be that's so fucking much money jesus christ that's like a giant house so it is he uh 450 000 and he's trying to help her with this custody dispute so he's doing a lot of things for her a lot of favors for her and stuff like that and still from what we understand no sex is going on she has zero intention of of

making him a significant other zero no and and that was the agreement though from the start when he got into this he said i'll give you money and she said i won't fuck you yeah 469 or not you know i'm not 460 i'm not 469 with you that's the difference that's not that's what we're dealing with i might be 469 but with other people so welcome to the small town of chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper in this new thriller available exclusively on Wondery+, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager,

but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the

law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+.

Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts.

By the summer of 2000, Larry Bill decides, damn it, I need to profess my love to Bunny469. I am going to... I'm going to let her fly. She knows. Maybe she thinks that I'm happy

with this arrangement, so I am going to go to the deep recesses of my soul and I'm going to bear it to her. And maybe she's been feeling the same way but just hasn't had the guts to tell me. Larry Bill needs a friend. Larry Bill is out of his fucking mind. He needs a pal like you. Did you hear how ridiculous that sounds? That would be my response.

Did you hear yourself just now i'd take him sit him down on the couch and i'm gonna go i'm gonna say to you exactly what you just said to me in the exact tone and then you tell me how you feel about it how fucking stupid i sound let me tell you that's how you need a comic friend who's like bro yes a cynical person who's gonna make fun of you to the point where you go, Jesus Christ, I didn't realize I was that easy to make fun of about it. You're right. I'm totally wrong. And at the end of the conversation, I would look him straight in the face and go, you have a wife.

Does she know all this? And if the answer is no, then why are you hiding it? How the fuck did you hide spending $450,000 on your side chick who's not even your side chick how did that fly with the wife when your wife finds out what is she gonna do a small town murder probably i would assume right maybe no and she's gonna stand in the front yard and wait for the cops she can't wait she's gonna be the family in woodbridge virginia that that person was writing a review about as furniture flies out the front door that's why that's why it wouldn't settle down four hundred fifty thousand dollars so he would appear by summer 2000 though he professed his

love and all this type of shit then he started doing weird shit like he'd just pop up at her house at odd hours unannounced 11 o'clock at night hey how's it going like what the fuck um he'd make weird elaborate excuses to see her you know i you know i left a shoelace at your house it's got to be under your couch let me look for it just dumb shit it popped right out of my shoe while i was sitting there the whole thing i'm out of toilet paper can i come over can i come over get like you know just flick five squares maybe just enough to tide me so he'd do all of that he would he got her to meet him in west virginia on some weird you know pretense of some business thing that turned out to be nothing so he's trying to get her to like forcibly be his girlfriend sort of like in a way but he's

not sexually forcing himself on her at all he's just kind of forcing himself in a stalking manner he's trying to present himself as the sweetheart that's always around but it looks fucking creepy that's if you're not invited somewhere that means that someone didn't want you to be there otherwise they would have told you or asked you to be there probably yeah still learn along came polly yeah so i mean they know 450 grand means i like you she's very well aware yeah and i don't think she thinks oh i don't think that 51 year old man would fuck me though even though i'm a 30 year old stripper and he's a fucking you know a married 51 year old man who's giving me half a million dollars i don't think he'll fuck me if i ask him to yeah right she knows i take my clothes off and people give me money because i'm hot there's no way he

wants to fuck me and now my tits are bigger by the way did i mention that because he bought them for me so i got bigger tits now too she knows so robert finch is her ex okay her ex-boyfriend robert finch he's also 30 years old he they've been in a bitter custody dispute for quite a while now that was one of the things that, because they met in 99. By 2000, you know, late 2000, it's still going on. So it's a couple years of this thing. And that was one of the things she was trying to get help with him from Larry Bill about. So he, Robert Finch, has a girlfriend that they live together.

And she has two children. And her name is Danaana thrall she is 25 years old t-h-r-a-l-l uh there and uh they are getting their lives together these two and doing a good job of it actually they bought a 335 000 home wow which is a nice back then and even now that's that's that's crazy yeah you could We gave you a house you could buy for that price in Virginia right this minute, 20 years ago. You could get a really nice house for that. So they bought a nice,

they're building it for themselves. Oh, shit. That's what it costs to do. That was the mortgage they took out. He looks like he's ready. He's poised to win this custody battle as well because he's got a more stable environment. He's building a house. His business is doing well. Yeah, he's ready he's poised to win this custody battle as well because he's got a more stable environment he's building a house he's his business is doing well yeah he's doing yeah

yeah she's like well um i got this guy um larry bill gave me 450 uh larry bill bought me a jeep like well that's not it's tough to show on paper and at court of law to say that. So, um, he was thought he was going to win. He had a contracting business called RF enterprises, Inc. And it, it, he said he had a plan for, it was going to take,

you know, two years to take, and it just shot out of the gate and took off like crazy. Wow. So he's had to like scramble to keep up with all the business to hire more people and buy more trucks. And yeah, American dream right now for this guy. So it's going great so um robert is the firstborn

of his family uh his father would later say quote we had the normal family problems i believe as far as growing up was concerned robert was a person that tended to be more or less to do his own uh be his own type of person and of course that takes after his father because i grew up that way also so as dad's saying yeah that's what his dad's like he said robert had done a great deal toward pulling his life together and getting it on the right track he's been together a long time with dana thrall and the father says quote they were living together and i believe engaged to be married they were in the process of building a house that they would be living in his business had been growing growing quite uh readily and they were both actively involved in this as dana

was working at fairfax foods at the time and involved in a pretty good life there so they're doing well for he's got a business she's's working. They're both making money. They're building a house together. They're going to have a nice family. This is great. Good for you. This is what he envisioned with Bunny469, and that obviously didn't work out, so he figured it out with Thrall. He figured it out with Thrall, yeah, because we don't know what's going on with Bunny, but we'll talk about her. Okay.

So the father goes on to say, Robert was doing his level best. I thought or felt at the time to put his life back on track and go from there. Robert, prior to this, on several occasions, had come up to us and said, quote, Dad or Mom, whoever was there, if ever something should happen to me, go to Rebecca because look toward her. OK, because look, you get it. You know what's up with her. Funny 469. So this is Dana. Dana Thrall.

This is her dad talking. They said, quote, Dana and Robert Finch met when Dana moved into one of my rental homes, which was across the street from Finch's residence. That's adorable. Isn't that nice? I love it. Robert Finch was a former boyfriend of Rebecca Gregg and the father of her two children. Rebecca Gregg and Finch were engaged in a custody dispute for which the final hearing was scheduled for the first week of January 2001. Dana and Robert Finch were planning to build a $300,000 house.

Dana told me previously they were moving into this new house, and Robert was doing well in his company. But when I looked at their financial papers to help them, I couldn't understand where the money was coming from. Robert wasn't earning the sort of money needed to buy a $300,000 house. He had eight people working for him, each with a mobile phone and two or three vans. Robert also had a new pickup truck. His company assembled products for Home Depot and L mobile phone and two or three vans robert also had a new pickup truck his company assembled products for home depot and lowes and other companies he would typically charge them 25 to assemble a barbecue that's not a lot when you have a guy drive over there to do that i'm gonna come over with my gas build your barbecue and leave and you're gonna give me 25

that's not a way you can't. That's not a business. But back then, too, that was during the dot com shit where there was all sorts. I figured it out, James. What if he goes to the Home Depot, builds them all, builds like 10 of them and then fucking dips? If you do that, you can make some money. I guess. But you'd have to know how to do it really fast. You build two, James, and you're so good at it.

I guess so. So $25 per per barbecue i guess you could do that but that's still not anyway the guy goes on to say everything he had for his business the computers the trucks was guaranteed by dana all robert had was debt all the loan papers for the new house were in dana's name oh so yeah that's not great that's not now and he's also engaged in this custody battle that's going on. And while they're engaged in this custody battle, like we said, Larry Bill is here to help. Yeah.

He's going to help Bunny469 in any way possible, obviously. From a cell phone to tuition to private school for your children. I mean, it's anything in between that falls into that, including surveilling your ex to get dirt on him in the custody battle stop i'll do that oh no he's doing that oh yeah yeah well he's a counterintelligence man so you want somebody to yeah he's the guy to hire so um they larry bill tells uh bunny 469 let's call her never call her rebecca that i mean when you say your name's bunny 469 that's your name now said he was he told her he was investigating finch and videotaping him as evidence for court hearings so he's been playing like an unhired private investigator basically creepy just a freelance private investigator who does shit on spec and then goes look what i did

for you here's 20 grand imagine if somebody came over knocked on your door and was like i filmed your ex-wife give me money he'd be like the fuck out of here well worse if they came over said i filmed your ex-wife here's 20 grand yeah that's true too here's a bunch of money okay all right here's the keys to that Cherokee out front. Your kid's tuition all paid up to do? Because if not, you know, I'll come on over and cut a check. I have no problem doing that. So the investigation that he had.

Now, she said she wasn't sure if it's true. She didn't see the tapes ever is what she said. But she said the whole thing scared her because she wasn't asking him to do that. She said that the investigation, as he called it, included basically prowling around Robert's property more than 100 times. Holy shit. Yeah. Or as he called it, quote, using his vast experience and surveillance to watch Finch at Bunny 469's behest. How good is he at this?

Because if somebody's on my property a hundred times, I'm going to catch you. Right. By accident, especially because Robert has a large mastiff named Naughty. How does not? Naughty, you are the worst watchdog ever you know i have two mastiffs are they are they gonna fucking oh god no benny won't let you yeah benny won't let you sleep if there's somebody doing yard work three houses down no and frankie's looking for blood always from anything any body creature she can get at she She's like, I'll kill it. There's a deer two acres away.

I'll go get it for you. I'll be back in three, give me three minutes with him. That's how my dog is, frankly. She's a killer. She's wild. So anyway, 100 times in the neighborhood here. So he said that Larry Bill told everybody, listen, what I'm doing isn't weird.

I'm trying to help her. I'm looking for evidence of drug use so I can bring that up in the custody hearing and help Bunny out here. So this is what ended up happening. So he's got a townhouse where he lives with Dana. Dana's two kids, dog naughty, and that's Robert Finch's life. And he's got this guy's got wandering around the outside constantly this guy constantly prowling around the outside of the house trying to record him doing some sort of drugs so this is a nightmare yeah just sniffing like my grandmother yeah god we brought up our

grandparents a lot sniffing for weed getting tagged on the counter it's all there so wanted to show that he was an unfit father that was the whole deal and um so larry bill said quote there was an obsession here the obsession was between robert finch and rebecca gragg and the obsession was to win they had to beat each other so that's what he called it that was the that's the real obsession now i'm not obsessed with her they're obsessed with beating each other not me not me larry bill followed robert dozens of times larry bill doesn't know robert's never met larry bill so he doesn't wouldn't be like why is larry bill behind me he doesn't fucking know him so he can pop up in public places and shit and i'll never recognize him they could go you know what

i mean he could watch him in a restaurant he's not gonna know him he doesn't know eventually right i would imagine would you wouldn't you notice if the same guy happens to be around all the time so but i mean how often would you had to really concentrate on a stranger before you go i see you all the time i'd have to be positive i saw him five times before i would say that right how much are you james i don't look at people i don't care if you're staying away from me i don't know man i'm so if you're staying away from me yeah i don't give a fuck who you are come in my radius and i got you got my attention but if you're across the street or something that's a good point yeah i don't care what the fuck you're doing and i think this guy's busy busy. He's got a business. He's got little kids in the house.

He's building a house. He doesn't know who the hell's. He should notice people wandering around his property a hundred times. There you go. Yeah. That's something. So he would do, Larry Bill would circle the neighborhood doing what he called spot checks. And he would go to the house when Rebecca thought that Robert might be there at the house to film him.

He says, Larry Bill says, quote, I was trying to help her. There was nothing I felt strange about. I never saw Robert Finch do anything that was illegal or inappropriate. So while he's stalking this man, if you've stalked him a hundred times and you've never seen him do anything inappropriate, I think it's time to go. I don't think he's up to anything. I think he's on the up and up, this fucking guy. I'm out 450 and she's snowing me, clearly.

Yeah, this is ridiculous. Rebecca, though, Bunny, says, quote, he always knew too much, meaning Larry Bill. I knew he was following me around and I told him to stop investigating Robert. I got to the point where I didn't want any contact with him. She wanted to cut off contact with Larry Bill. She said she started avoiding his calls and taking trips without telling him where she was going. And she said in early January here,

the first couple days of January 2001, she was returning from a vacation to Florida that she took with her children. So she wasn't even around on January 2nd, 2001 at four o'clock in the morning. Yeah. Had no part of anything. So 4 a.m. the morning of January 2nd, 2001. Mary Bracewell, who was a newspaper delivery person, was driving her route in the Woodbridge area here.

She was aware that she had heard there's been a bunch of vehicle break-ins in this neighborhood. Maybe from the paper. I don't know how she would know that otherwise. It had to be the paper. She seems to be in possession of some pretty good evidence every morning. She's got news in her hands. She said while she was doing her route, she became suspicious when she saw a man standing beside a pickup truck. Pickup truck parked on Belfry Lane.

She said she observed the man who appeared to be carrying a flashlight. It's four in the morning. That's suspicious. She observed him walk to the north end of Belfry Lane, cross the street, walk onto a grassy area between two townhouses then disappear from her view oh boy yeah so you see a guy outside with a flashlight he goes and goes into a backyard what do you do jimmy um i know the right answer is call the cops but i'm getting the fuck out of there i shrug my shoulders and i go none of my fucking business and i throw the next paper i don't know if that guy's left something in his goddamn car maybe he's got to work at five in

the morning and he just got up i don't give a shit i don't know i don't care he wasn't covered in blood from head to toe so none of my goddamn business right is the flashlight on because that is uh a beacon of i'm here so that doesn't look so if a man is carrying a flashlight and it's not on and he's like slinking between houses i'm more worried about that man than the guy with the flashlight that's on that's on yeah he's like hi looking for something right but i assume maybe it looks like he was like looking around in his trunk for the flashlight maybe or something like that or looking in his car either way she sees all of this and immediately calls the police on her cell phone. Wow, that is a vigilant newspaper woman.

Holy shit. I couldn't imagine doing that. That's so out of my... Yeah. Wow. The tribune doesn't pay you enough, lady. She's trying to make news is what she's doing. Maybe this will be on the front page. So, 4.15 a.m., 15 minutes later, Officer Marshall T. Daniel of the Prince William County Police Department receives a radio call directing him to respond to the call.

He arrives at Belfry Lane three minutes later. Bracewell, the newspaper woman, indicated here that the parked pickup truck there that is over here, that's what I observed. I saw this is the truck. The cop noted the pickup truck looked at it it was locked saw that it had a department of defense windshield identification sticker on it yeah little dip but that's all it's in suburban washington dc any of these government agencies on a car sticker that's so fucking normal that's half the cars probably so um he noticed that and uh saw that there was a cell phone on the passenger seat sitting there so at 4 27 a.m this officer daniel received a call to respond to a report of a domestic

disturbance at a townhouse that was uh the address was 3406 jousters way which is about 300 yards north of where they are right now oh so it's right there it's right in this area so the two streets don't intersect but you can see you know you can walk there just walk up to the next street yeah walk from there so walk up and over i think one so they walk in the same direction that and then the mary the bracewell woman that's the direction she said she saw the man from the behind the pickup truck with the flashlight walking, okay, toward the domestic disturbance. Now, Tina Miller, who lives in an adjoining townhouse with that address where the disturbance is filed, she made the report of the domestic disturbance. She called the police after being awakened by a crashing sound coming from the address at about 4 20 a.m

she made the call uh and then she heard three or four quote hollow sounds followed by what she's called quote the most horrible scream she'd ever heard those are gunshots love and a horrible scream that's those all go together bad this is the time you call the cops by the way there's the answer this is the time someone is in desperate need of medical attention. This is when you call the cops. So she thought that the screaming voice possibly sounded like Dana Thrall because she knows her. She lives next door and they've talked. So Tommy Young, who lives in a townhouse on the opposite side of the street, was walking his dog in front of this home or in front of his home

but which is just right across the street on a sidewalk in a small street about the same time that this happened he heard two quote loud banging noises coming there followed by the sound of a female scream and then three more banging noises so the one said three or four he said three these are all this all lines up here everybody's hearing same thing, which is rare because a lot of times people hear completely different things. So more banging noises, female screams. He went back to his house and told his wife to call the police. He's like, I want to call the cops, but I'm not fucking talking to anybody. You talk to the cops.

You talk to them. not fucking talking to anybody right you talked to the you talked to him so a few minutes later he uh they young tommy young looks out his front window and sees that the front storm door of the condo in question which had earlier been closed when he was out with the dog was now open and swaying back and forth oh god that's the most haunting visual. That's very haunting. Thumping, screaming, and then 4.30 in the morning, a storm door blowing in the wind. Oh, no. What happened in there? There's like tales from the crypt happening in there, man. I don't like that. That is a horror movie.

Oh, my God. So also noted that the front window shades of the home, which are normally about at least half open, were fully closed. All right. So now what the fuck went on inside that house i'd love to know okay now robert finch in the end was shot three times oh boy dana thrall was shot five times holy shit including three gunshots to the head one to the chest and one that went went through one of her fingers where she might have grabbed the gun and it got shot like that. Also, Dana had been beaten severely over the head, and we'll talk about why,

and then shot again. That's how this whole thing happened. What the hell, man? Now, there's different theories on what happened here. Finch was shot. First, they say they think Finch was shot after he opened the front door, which if someone knocks on your door

at four o'clock in the morning, are you fucking opening it or what? Well, you might be likely to just open it because you think there's some kind of crazy emergency. Right. Is there a meltdown at the plant? Like, what the hell's going on? Is my house on fire?

Are you trying to tell me? Hey, everybody, run for your lives there's a shit cloud coming like maybe it's one of those things so they say he was shot after first opening the door then um and he's shot well we'll talk about where he's shot because then he ends up dying by being shot in the back of the head execution style oh after being shot a couple of times then dana thrall appeared at the top of the stairs they believe that thrall came down the stairs toward the shooter because that's where the only phone in the house was it was downstairs so she said she they think that she came down

now at some point they think he ran out of bullets during this he's got a revolver they think he ran out of bullets so he beat her over the head with the gun. And then while she was unconscious reloaded? Then while she was getting down and out from this, he reloaded his gun and shot her a lot more. She was shot five total times. Three to the head.

So he dumped three in her head afterwards. There. So the police never recover the gun, but they do end up finding a drop of blood on a back gate that doesn't belong to anybody that lives in the house so he's cut or something so yeah we'll talk about that now they have that theory they also say though and this is like in the same breath sometimes during the same trial that this is really odd that somehow they think the assailant got it managed to get into the house that there was no front door interaction and that robert finch was shot in the chest as he came down the

stairs to see what a noise was and then in the back of the head when he came down you know when he got down there shot fell down to execute a back of the head execution he came down you know when he got down there shot fell down to execute back of the head execution style then he's they think that from all the you know commotion thrall came to the top of the steps and ran downstairs to see what was going on that's when she was shot um till he ran out of ammo beat her with the gun and then shot her again my christ what a scene that's the theory of what happened but they don't know exactly like i said if he opened the door for him or if this person broke in but there's no sign of forced entry but the back door you know the doors like a back door will have like

the handle lock it's a little twist and then it has a deadbolt the deadbolt was open which is not normal but the bottom lock was locked so So, like, somebody could have pulled that closed on the way out and locked it. It could have been unlocked when he went in and then through the lock when he closed it. I can see that. That could happen. So, this is a fucking scene. There is blood everywhere. The scene from him beating her and the blood.

So, there's just blood all over the walls and ceiling. James, there's just blood all over the walls and ceiling and james there's children in this house yeah i was just gonna say by the way there are two children in this oh my god okay now that's the thing that happens here the cops show up officer scott bigger shows up and arrived at the place at 4 25 knocked on the front door but got no response daniel the other officer who was responding to the newspaper woman yeah he shows up a minute later here and walks around to the back of the townhouse. The backyard's enclosed by a privacy fence. And the officer could hear a large dog in the yard outside barking pretty hysterically and pretty angrily.

And it's a fucking mastiff. Yeah, I don mastiff so get near that that's some shit you pay attention to you're like oh my god that's 130 pound animal with sharp teeth yeah that's dangerous that thing is like a zoo animal getting out right now so the officer goes back to the front of the home and they finds out that the first officer still hasn't gotten any response to the knocking on the front door. They look between a gap in the shades in the front window. And that's when Officer Daniel is able to see the legs of a person lying motionless on the in the entryway of the home.

That's probable cause, right? I would say so. I would say so. Now, this ended up being Robert Finch who ended up. That's whose leg you could see. Finched with the gunshot wounds like we talked about. The officer, Daniel, immediately returned to the back of the home to secure that area because now we got a possible murderer or some terrible person that could be running out of the back and getting away and called for backup, obviously. More cops come.

Daniel returns to the location where the pickup truck had been parked now yeah he goes oh shit i better get back to that pickup truck maybe that was blah blah blah when he gets there at 4 38 a.m the truck truck's gone oh my god truck's gone they didn't leave anybody with the pickup truck so why would they do that newspaper person went around they didn't even say hey mary will you hang here for a minute hey mayor watch this truck for a minute we'll tell be right back we'll tell your dispatcher why the paper's late this morning none of that shit i put in a call for another person to come here but until he gets here hang here for me mayor nope they left and uh truck was gone at 4 38 so think about how close all that

is all right now um the officer sheldon r creamerer, my God, one of the officers who'd responded here to the call, he showed up at 4.45 p.m. He entered the home and heard a muffled breathing sound coming from the kitchen at the back of the home. On the ground, he finds Dana Thrall shot and lying in a pool of blood, but alive. She's still alive after all that five times and a beating. Blood everywhere. He goes, holy shit. They call emergency medical personnel. They're trying to help her.

The toughest chick on earth is in here. Get in here. Get in here. Holy shit. She's badass. Yeah. The fucking ambulance. They get a helicopter, the whole deal, and all this sort of thing.

She suffered, like we said, defensive wounds, multiple gunshot, three to the head, one to the chest, blunt force trauma to the back of their head with a pistol whipping from a revolver. They noted that the back door, like I said, doorknob lock with the deadbolt was not engaged. They could hear the dog in the backyard. but the deadbolt was not engaged. They could hear the dog in the backyard. They went into the yard from the kitchen, and they found the dog had calmed down, and they said the privacy fence area was secured with a locked padlock in the back.

So that was locked. At this point, while they're outside checking the padlock, Officer Daniel looks up at the house and sees out of a second floor back window what sees what appears to be two little ghosts in the fucking window that put their heads down again this is a nightmare what a haunting place yeah he goes holy he freaked the fuck out yeah and they found out it's her six and four year old sons who were hiding in the house while the cops looked around the house the whole time. Oh, God.

Because they heard all that going on. Yeah. They probably went downstairs, looked, saw their mother in a fucking pool of blood, saw all this blood, went up and hid. Now they hear stomping around down here and men talking, so they probably hid. They heard people go outside. They look out the window and then duck down. Holy shit, they see us. Yeah. These poor kids, they ended up finding them. They heard people go outside. They look out the window and then duck down. Holy shit, they see us.

Yeah. These poor kids, they ended up finding them. They're crying. They're upset. They're obviously horrified. They remove them from the home. They end up being put with relatives who end up taking them. Their lives completely changed.

Yeah. Dana's still alive, though. That's great. She's still alive. Yeah. Still alive. Now, they don't know what the fuck to do the the crime scene analyst here we'll talk about that collected bloodstain samples at

various locations inside the house they did dna testing of the shit around the house all the blood around the house and confirmed the blood was that of dana and robert they also found a bloodstain on the inside of the privacy fence. Inside of it. We'll talk about the DNA testing on that, but right away it shows that it doesn't belong to Dana or Robert. Somebody jumped a fence. It's an outside party.

Doesn't belong to the kids, doesn't belong to Dana, doesn't belong to Robert. Nobody who lives at this house left that blood. Did Naughty crack the case? I can't wait to find out. We'll talk about it here. It's how Officer Naughty crack the case? I can't wait to find out. We'll talk about it here. It's how Officer Naughty, that's who that is. We're going to take you into the department and call you Officer Naughty from now on.

So, they do forensic testing of 10 bullets recovered from the autopsies and around the home, and they confirm they were all fired by the same weapon, which they don't have, but they said they were used it's a revolver type. The bullets were the type of gun used firm they were all fired by the same weapon which they don't have but they said they were used uh it's only it's a revolver type the bullets were the type of gun used in a revolver are they 38

this particular i believe they are so the uh the firearms expert with the division virginia division of forensic science said that because no weapon uh like that could hold more than five or six bullets he was certain that's why there's a reload there had to be a reloading in the middle of this because 10 bullets were recovered so i'm thinking five and five probably it's one of those emptied it twice yep that's there so they said they were what they're going to do is uh they're tracing personal relationships in robert's past and been doing interviewing people they found records in juvenile and domestic relations court that showed that she he was involved in a five-year custody battle with the mother of his two children five years uh identified in documents as rebecca gragg and um yeah they were going to do

that these are a six and a five-year-old boy so since the one was born and the one was one, they've been fighting. This is not. Yeah. So anyway, she the police chief told the media the case is still wide open. We're working on a number of substantial leads. I mean, the one's pretty obvious. It's a pretty obvious lead, I would say here. They now have a theory that Thrall and Finch knew their attacker and let him into the house before this happened which is a bad theory if they wanted to look at larry bill because they don't know larry bill they don't know larry now the only thing is maybe he said

i'm a friend of rebecca's there's something with your kid possibly yeah that would make me open the door maybe you know what i mean that's possible there's an emergency with your kid possibly? That would make me open the door maybe. Sure. You know what I mean? That's possible. There's an emergency with your son. Who knows? That's something.

This guy could probably get himself in a door. He's a 51-year-old guy. He doesn't look homeless. He could probably say something to get himself in the door. Even intelligence used to work in the military, now doing it as a civilian. It's pretty easy. Some bullshit. Can I use your phone? You know what I mean? Because he did leave his phone in the military now doing it as a civilian. He could. It's pretty some bullshit.

Can I use your phone? Yeah. You know what I mean? Because he did leave his phone in the truck, which I find interesting. Right. So that was his truck with the Department of Defense sticker there. So they said that that's what their theory is. They said that Finch had very few enemies and, you know, didn't really have a ton of friends.

And they were starting their life over together. And, you know, they're making their own little Brady Bunch over here. Right. Yeah, his friend said they bought a house big enough so that every child could have their own room. It's a tragedy the way this went down, obviously. So Robert's younger sister, Jennifer, who's also a close friend of Dana,

because they're like the same age, said that they're all very pissed off obviously and they said that they're trying to they're trying to deal with it but she said you can barely handle one death but he said about she said about Robert he always wanted to be on top

and be the best and to have the best for his kids everything he never had it's just awful for it to end this way that's just every guy that's that's just every guy every day that's that is fucking terrible um so they uh she also told police that finch and gragan but involved in a custody battle and uh so the detective went to bunny 469's residence in dale city virginia not bunny yeah oh bunny uh it's about six miles away from where robert finch was murdered uh she was not there but there were two vehicles parked in front of the residence

one of the vehicles was registered to larry bill yeah okay which might be one that he bought for her so uh grag returned to her home later that day and detectives came back um now they asked around she maintained larry bill is just her quote friend and business partner she said i don't know anything about the murders but my my ex robert had a ton of enemies so start there so a lot of people want to kill him i was out of town absolutely now on january 3rd uh the detective here and two detectives travel to fort meade where larry bill works as a civilian employee for the united states army as a counterintelligence expert yeah so the detectives learned that elliot owned a pickup truck and wanted to determine whether that truck could have been the truck that was seen

nearby at the crime scene. Fair enough. Are you telling me they didn't jot down the license plate of this truck? This is incredible. What the fuck? Incredible, right? They're like, huh, it's a truck, huh? Wow.

What the fuck? I'm going to go look around, then I'll write the license plate later. I get not writing down the VIN, but at least the license plate later i get not writing down the vin but at least the license plate the difference why they didn't is because they thought that the they didn't think the truck initially yeah no they didn't think well they didn't know there was going to be a murder right by there but they thought initially the truck belonged to a potential vehicle break-in victim not the robber. They thought it was a guy looking with a flashlight.

They saw a cell phone on the seat and said, well, he obviously didn't break in yet. He would have taken that cell phone. So that's why they didn't write it down. Then the light bulb went off. Oh, shit, that truck. What if that guy, blah, blah, blah. They went back. The truck's gone.

So this was just, we don't get this a lot around here. You know what I mean? This isn't very common. If there's a rash of vehicle break-ins and you see a truck with a very clear something that somebody would steal, wouldn't you write down the license plate just on the chance maybe somebody will steal this later

and I'll be able to say, I saw that? Maybe I would if I wasn't called away by a domestic violence call in the middle of it also. Still, at least glance at least glance it's just the way it worked out is weird i'm surprised the newspaper lady didn't write it down because she seemed pretty fucking nosy right nobody got the flight number nope so they said that the detectives learned that he owned a pickup truck and wanted to determine that they located the truck in a parking lot at fort meade. The detective observed that there was a flashlight, a cellular phone, and a box of bandages on the seat of the truck.

Oh. Not good. Like someone who might have cut themselves on a gate. All right. Yeah. So this is Detective Hoffman. He's taking photographs of the truck. As he does, Larry Bill approaches.

Hey, that's my truck. And identifies, I own that truck. He said, that's my truck. And they said, well, you want to talk to us? And he said, sure. Larry Bill will talk to anybody. I'm a good, I got a good heart and a hard cock. What can I help you with?

How you doing? Larry Bill, good heart, hard cock. Let's chat. Vote bunny 469. So Larry Bill tells the detectives that Rebecca was an employee at a brewing company that he owned in West Virginia. He admitted that he supplied her with a credit card in her name, but he said that it was for business purposes. She works for me. You know, what am I supposed to do?

You also told them that he'd been traveling over the New Year's holiday. So had she on separate trips and that during that time he spoke with her several times on her cell phone, which he bought for her in an effort to arrange a business meeting with her after the holiday. So Larry Bill told the detectives he's aware that Rebecca and Robert were involved in a dispute regarding the custody of the children. He said that, you know, Rebecca had traveled to Florida over the New Year's holiday, took her children with her. Now, Rebecca had traveled to Florida over the New Year's holiday, took her children with her. Larry Bill told them also that Bunny had told him that she was having car trouble and wouldn't be able to return to Virginia with the children in time to return them to Robert at 2 p.m. on New Year's Day, as she was required to do by the visitation agreement. So Larry Bill said he drove to rebecca's residence in the early afternoon in new year's day quote in case robert finch showed up so that larry bill could explain to him the problems rebecca was having getting back i'll explain i'll show up and be a stranger explaining

to him where his kids are that'll go over well that's fine larry bill uh said he denied any relationship at this point also with rebeccagg, with Bunny, other than as her employer. He denied knowing Robert Finch and claimed, I think I saw him once. I think I've seen him once. I can certainly find him to tell him about, hi, I'm your ex's boss. I'm here to tell you where your kids are. By the way, here's photographic evidence of you from the last year of doing everything. There's your barbecue that you had.

Here's you fucking your wife. Holy shit. This is crazy. So, yeah, this is all going on. He says he didn't see him. He didn't know him. Detective Hoffman told Larry Bill that his truck had been seen in Robert's neighborhood in the early morning hours on the day of the murders. Larry Bill denied he was in the area.

I don't know what you must have been a different truck with a Department of Defense sticker on it. He claimed I spent the night of January 1st to 2nd sleeping in my truck at a rest area in Maryland. That's not weird. Where I have no alibi whatsoever. Sleeping in a truck in the middle of nowhere where no one looks at you unless it's to have sex in a bush perfect fuck out of here this guy he uh voluntarily accompanied the detectives to the police department and during the course of the interview he uh he said the true that's where he admitted the true nature he hadn't said he'd you know i've been sugar daddying this woman for a long time he just said he employed her now he admitted the true nature. He hadn't said, you know, I've been sugar daddying this woman for a long time.

He just said he employed her. Now he tells the detectives he had initiated a relationship with her in mid-99, saw her picture on a website. Oh, it was not the one. Where he found her was adult friend finders. Oh, for Christ's sake. Which I had a friend that looked on there. It was all totally gross stuff. had a friend that looked on there it's it was all totally gross stuff it was like if you're a guy who will you know lick my butthole when i want you to then i'm the you know give me a ring otherwise

i don't need you non-butthole liquors while i eat and like weird shit it was like weird fetish it's the least on the up and up website on on the internet that's i don't know in 99 if it was more on the up and up it got worse probably not i'm gonna say probably not adult friend so i found her on adult friend finders and uh you know she's looking for a sugar daddy during their first meeting you know she had told him that she worked as a stripper and a private escort which he took he said to mean as a euphemism for a call girl or a prostitute is what he told the police. That's not a euphemism at all. It's right on the fucking nose. It's just private escort.

It means privately escorting you somewhere. Mostly to hotels. Drain your balls. That's how it works. What a dummy. What a dummy. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts.

I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit

with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's

most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. So I said a private escort. I thought it was a euphemism. Now, he said that Bunny told him that she wanted to turn her life around,

need a financial support, the whole deal. She told him, he tells the cop, she told him that she wanted to turn her life around, need a financial support, the whole deal. She told him, he tells the cop, she told him that she wasn't interested in a romantic or a sexual relationship. He said he agreed to the agreement. Exactly what happened. He said, and he even told them, all I wanted was friendship from her. Maybe it's some business acumen. I was taking the website very literal. Very, very literal.

Now, this is he talks about, I paid for the private school. The whole deal permits her to use his credit cards in addition to hers. She can use his cars whenever she wants. He played for the breast augmentation. He paid for that. Also, she had begun operating a website at this point that he helped her get money to set up, which showed pay to watch porn movies so you could you know early an early thing here larry bill admitted that his support of bunny 469 had

placed a significant financial burden on him and that he had to sell investments to pay her credit card debts larry bill so now he's dipping into his nest egg here 401ks for this shit you idiot he's probably investments yeah you know stocks or whatever so which i guess all together yeah so he then said that yes he does know where robert lives uh because the day before he went over there with bunny 469 on the afternoon on January 1st. He drove there. He said, I didn't get out of my truck, but he said that he had seen, quote, a black man with a slinky walk going to the front door of the home. Larry Bill maintained that he had driven to a large retail store and a restaurant before driving to the rest stop in Maryland where he spent the night.

So despite owning multiple homes, he went to his friend's, his sugar daughter's, he went to his sugar daughter's ex's house. Sugar baby. It's way creepier if it's sugar daughter, isn't it? I feel like, I know the term, but I'm just saying sugar daughter is creepier and that's what he's, if they're not fucking, it's a sugar daughter at that point.

That's what it is, yeah. Yeah, so that's what I'm calling it. So anyway, went over there with that, then went to a store, went out to eat and then said, well, I'm gonna drive to a rest stop in another state and take a nap. I'm going to do that. And then sleep in my truck for the night.

I got a wife and kids. I'll be at the rest stop. I'll be at the rest stop. So then he said that he drove back to Bunny's house at 3 a.m. on the morning of January 2nd to retrieve a case of motor oil that he saw there the day before. Because that's when I need motor oil. At 3 a.m. on New Year's Day, I need motor oil right now. there the day before because that's when i need motor oil at 3 a.m on new year's day i need motor oil right now how much castor is james a case of it fine that's a case i woke up from my rest stop slumber and said i need motor oil and just got in my car

gtx i'll be back holy shit jesus christ so um he then. He went to a convenience store where he called Rebecca's cell phone on a pay phone. He claimed that he used the pay phone because his cell phone's battery was dead. So the telephone company records show that a call had been placed from that pay phone to her cell phone at 328 a.m. Larry Bill then admitted after calling Rebecca Bunny, he drove to Finch's neighborhood. He admitted leaving his truck. So he said, I went to the neighborhood. I left my truck where you said it was. I was there during the time of the murder because you saw it murder.

But it's just a coincidence. Not me. Not me. I might have the murder on film, as a matter of fact, because I'm always taping him. He put himself at the murder on film, as a matter of fact, because I'm always taping him. He put himself at the murder scene. He admitted leaving his truck, claiming he only did so because he needed to take a leak, though. Yeah. That's why he went in a yard, in a dark yard, to take a piss.

Listen, castral thieving will make you have to piss. Man, it's a lot. It's a lot. It gets you going. He stated that after urinating by a guardrail on the side of the road, he walked by Thrall and Finch's townhouse. He denied going onto the property and stated that he had not heard gunshots, a scream, or anything unusual.

Well, they happened. So at the conclusion of the interview, the detective took a photograph of an abrasion that was on one of his hands. He has a cut on his fucking hand as well. And then they let him go. What? How do you not look the man in the face and go you're under arrest they have no evidence directly he was sort of there at this point you're going well he certainly did it and we have to prove it i think right that's what you're doing how does he not have a conscience

looking inward and just going i just told you so many things that makes me the guy obviously i did that was a terrible terrible story i just told wasn't it jesus christ you don't believe it that didn't work at all did it no all right sure all right i get it i get it so january 4 2001 the police said that uh this is the day that the police announced to the public that dana finally dies from her injuries so she lasts two days and uh she dies from her injuries man that's tough man it's so tough but fuck that's so now two more kids left without a parent so now four different kids lost a parent that day. Absolutely awful. That's fucking horrible. So now Bunny, accompanied by her lawyer, is interviewed by detectives now. They want to talk to her.

Now that's with a lawyer. They're investigating the deal here. During the interview, she admitted, yes, I did receive a telephone call early on the morning of the murders. But that call came from Robert, not from not from uh came from my ex not from larry bill she claimed that finch called and threatened to call the police if she did not return the children to him that afternoon at 3 a.m he did this at 3 a.m despite having a phone in his house he went to a pay phone to call her yeah to yell at her at 3 30 in the morning 3 28 a.m drop them off in 11 hours i swear to god i swear to god if you're not here at 2 30 2 45 i'm gonna fuck you up he also uh she also told detectives

that she did not believe that larry bill had committed these murders at all that's ridiculous on january 7th they conduct another interview with larry bill this is a three days go by again he admits this that he was in the neighborhood that night and they're like well so you you've never been in his house other than the day before when you said you went there with her and saw a guy slinking in the house and then that night you just decided i had to be there that's what happened and he said not exactly um larry bill said as a matter of fact, it's not just that night. I've been in that neighborhood, quote, hundreds of times. Oh, my God.

Hundreds with an S. Yikes. Then he said, I walked through the neighborhood. I did all of that. But I didn't ever go on the property where they lived. I just went around it. So January 8th, the crime scene analyst

took possession of his truck. Finally, Jesus Christ, it took a fucking week almost to get a search warrant for this thing. The man said he was at the scene. And they were like, we'll give it a couple of days. Wow.

He determined that the interior of the truck had recently been cleaned. Of course. Yep. Noting that the carpet was wet and that the seats in the interior had been covered with a quote silicone type base cleaner deep cleaned yeah i don't know uh they said the samples collected from the underside of the truck's floor mats

so that showed a trace of residue of blood though the samples were too small for accurate dna testing a further blood sample found in the seat cushion was consistent with larry bill's dna which if you have if you had a car for a couple years your blood's in there somewhere oh that's you you came in you know what i mean you know that's true you've dinged your finger when you're doing something and you i mean not a no traffic you got a nosebleed there if a if a crime scene unit went through your car yeah they're finding your dna all over the fucking place in there realization ever you know it you know it so if they ever say jimmy's jimmy's dna was found in his truck seat just understand that that's pretty common so i've had this car a long time. Leave me alone. It's just sweat.

Shut up. It's just sweat. Now, it's at this point that when they test his DNA and all that, they go, oh, he matches the drop of blood from the back gate. Uh-oh. Now, they don't have much physical evidence because they called Larry Bill a masterful criminal investigator who devoted his entire army career to intelligence matters. That's what they said. So they didn't expect a lot of energy because he's smart. A lot of energy, a lot of evidence because he's smart.

So, you know, what the fuck? He's even has top secret security clearance. He's doing. Oh, yeah. This guy's. Yeah, he's been doing his deal. So they got to bring Greg in again here. They got to bring Bunny in again here.

And they, she continues to deny any knowledge of this. They give her a polygraph examination and they said the first one's inconclusive. Yeah. So they give her a second one that they say she failed. They told her you're showing deception on the second one. And then she refuses to give a third one. That's how that goes. you're showing deception on the second one and then she refuses to give a third one that's how that goes so um yeah over the next several months bunny had continuing contact with police over

investigation but she did not provide any additional information about larry bill she hasn't really no help at all they also in the uh police suspected that she was not being fully forthcoming and they even told her that we think you're fucking lying to us so it was all of that whether she had the extent of the knowledge of the murders or whether she was directly involved either way may 9th 2001 five months uh larry bill's driving in maryland when he is pulled over for driving at a high rate of speed. And they say they were arresting him just because they thought he was trying to escape at a high rate of speed in Maryland.

They charge him with capital murder. He said that he intended to turn himself in, actually. He had talked to his lawyer, and there was a big plan to turn himself in. So he wasn't trying to flee. He just likes to drive fast. That was his story. I don't know the feelings, sir.

You know, so that's how it goes. May 10th, the detectives interview. That's the second Bunny polygraph examination. And they told her that her responses to questions concerning the knowledge of the murders indicated that she was being untruthful. And she said, I want my attorney now. Yeah.

After consulting with her attorney bunny told the police that the telephone call she received in the early mornings okay fine it wasn't from finch that's why you're getting ready that's why you're getting deceptive um and she said although initially she had assumed it was because the connection was not good so she couldn't hear the caller clearly it was all statically i thought it was him but now that i now that you polygraphed me and i talked to my lawyer i decided it wasn't i thought it was really weird that he was talking about killing himself and his wife super strange like i'll kill them both and i was like you mean yourself she then told them that the caller realized that she thought she was talking to Finch.

And then the caller said that he was, quote, tired of this shit and was going to take care of it and hung up on her. That's at that point that she realized the call must have been from Larry Bell. Yeah. And she attempted to call his cell phone, but it was answered immediately by voicemail. Dead battery or turned off, whatever the fuck. but it was answered immediately by voicemail, dead battery or turned off, whatever the fuck. So Bunny told the detective she received several more calls on her cell phone from Larry Bill on January 2nd. During one call, Larry Bill told her that, quote,

all of our problems have been taken care of. In another call, Larry Bill claimed that, quote, Jerry, who's just a guy who Larry Bill said he knew through his work with military counterintelligence, had, quote, come out of nowhere to help him and that he had to go clean up the mess. What? Jerry. Jerry's involved now. Later on, Larry Bill told Bunny that he was looking for a place to, quote, dump these bloodied black trash bags from the mess that jerry had made oh jerry

tim at work jerry jerryed him up wow so she also told police that she had not been truthful in her prior interviews because she was afraid of larry bill and jerry now jerry's involved larry bill's scary enough yeah j, Jerry, Jeff, and Larry Bill. Jerry, Ed, and Larry Bill. I don't like either one of them. This is unbelievable. Yeah, I'm afraid of now. And now I got Jerry to worry about.

So, shit. Because one time Larry Bill told her that Jerry was watching her and that he would kill her or her family if she went to the police. That's what she says. Larry is out of his fucking mind. Yeah, well, once Larry Bill was in custody and the police had assured her that there is no Jerry to be afraid of, that's when she said she decided to be truthful when all the danger was gone.

She's been lied to now. Now I feel put upon almost. Now I feel like... I've been taken advantage of. I'm the victim here now that I think of it. I've been accepting all of this money and all of these gifts i'm such a victim two people are dead four people four kids are without parents but i feel like i'm the victim because i've been lied to so she said that uh the attorney her attorney confirmed that she had told him on several occasions that she did in fact fear larry bill oh your attorney's vouching for you the person who is paid to have your best interest at heart and actually will get in trouble

if they go against your interests that guy wow they take care of you and back up your story yeah that's crazy right then there's an english investigator that comes along. He's a guy from England, but he lives in America at this point, and he's a private investigator that works for his wife's law firm. Like the Pink Panther. Yeah, there you go. Think Peter Sellers. It's another Steve Martin movie, sorry. I know, and more Steve Martin and Peter Sellers. There you go.

I know. And more Steve Martin and Peter Sellers. There you go. So this guy says that he talked to Sergeant Hoffman and asked him about Rebecca Gregg. And the sergeant said that Rebecca still remained a suspect in the murders as well. He also said that Rebecca is a, quote, lying, conniving woman and that she is a co-conspirator in the murders. That's what the sergeant, Detective Sergeant Hoffman, told this investigator, according to this guy. Quote, he stated that Rebecca had the motivation from the beginning. Everything she did made Sergeant Hoffman more suspicious of her. That's what he says. When I asked him if he had a conversation with Peter Paris, one of Bill's former defense attorneys, to attempt to have Larry Bill give him evidence against Rebecca, Sergeant Hoffman conceded that he likely did because he wants to charge her with conspiracy to murder. He still believes she's involved with it. I asked Sergeant Hoffman about the results of her polygraph tests. He confirmed that the first test was inconclusive and the second showed deception. After the second

test, she changed her story after hoffman finished interrogating her hoffman took her out for a smoke he said that afterward she changed her mind and told the most credible story he said that he tape recorded the interview that night he said that uh she continued to be to lie and be self-serving he believed he he thought that no one believed her uh quote i asked hoffman why the police did not have rebecca gragg take a third polygraph test and he told me a third test was not considered when i asked him about the ethics of putting up a witness who he thought was lying he responded that uh whatever he knew he knew what she was all about so um they

now talk about the collection of the evidence at the back gate. He said that there's missing photographs of the back gate, and that was a problem. Now, Bunny later on, talking about Jerry, the threat of Jerry, she said, quote, threats were made that people would get hurt if I didn't do what was expected of me. Right. hurt if i didn't do what was expected of me right um yeah now larry bill later um said that he was tired of her ex-boyfriends according to her and said that larry bill quote wanted to know which one of my exes was keeping me from loving him this guy this guy sounds like the biker guy from love after lockup who loves raylene yeahlene. That's what he sounds like. It's pathetic at this point.

It's embarrassing. It's fucking embarrassing. It's really embarrassing. You want to walk up and just open hand smack this guy across the face and go, you dumb motherfucker.

Stop. Jesus Christ. You're going to have to fuck someone your own age. I'm sorry. It's just the way it goes. You're going to have to fuck someone your own age. I'm sorry. It's just the way it goes. You're going to have to. That's how it works.

You're not rich and famous enough to fuck people 20 years younger than you and have them not scam on you. Or handsome enough. Or handsome enough. You're nothing. You need the trifecta if you're going to pull that off. Rich, handsome, and famous if you're going to pull shit like that. Sorry, man. Get in my boat and

let's row as we yeah slay what we're allowed to you're not getting george clooney get the fuck out of here it's not happening you're not an international movie star you have no oscars eat dicks there's a ceiling stop it yeah so larry larry bill um, he said that she thought that he was in love with one of her ex. She thought he thought that she was in love with one of her ex-boyfriends. He also backs that up that he said that she claims, though, he went into a jealous rage and told her that he was going to, quote, take care of the problem. So she says the conversation occurred just a few hours before they were killed, that Robert and Dana were murdered. Oh, boy. were swarming all over the place and he had to get out of there because he had blood all over him he called her according to her like as he was pulling out of the place with blood all over him trying to get away and you know sneaking out with the truck reporting that it's done so why is she pretending like she doesn't know anything about it super weird she said all of our problems have

been taken care of and we can get on with our life and And that's what happened there. Then she does a public interview. Oh, you dumb bitch. And she says, quote, the hardest thing I've ever faced. The thing that haunts me is that I that if I hadn't met Larry Bill Elliott, Robert and Dana would still be alive. I think everyone's life has been ripped apart by this. Bunny, you were looking for this. What are you talking about? Oh, my God. ripped apart by this bunny you you were looking for this what are you talking about oh my god she said at times she was being considered a suspect but that's just ridiculous she said she had nothing to do with the killings and was devastated by them she said that dana was a good friend of

hers she loved dana's children and that dana was quote one of the nicest most beautiful people you could meet uh now according to documents here lar Larry Bill claimed that he was at the house that morning to gather evidence against him for a court hearing. And that's how he cut his finger on the gate. He must have got a spark. It's how he bled on it. But you weren't on the property. Remember that story? Well, maybe I was just a little bit, but just by the gate.

And then he has a different story later on. Just I bled on and I left. I was like, I just like to leave my DNA places that are suspicious for police. That's all. So the Roberts parents now, okay, this is Robert Finch's parents, the murdered man. They said that Robert Finchch was murdered all this okay um mr elliott's defense counsel did not speak to me about robert rebecca or mr elliott this is an affidavit by the way uh or his case before the trial in fact the first time i was ever contacted

by anyone was uh was several months ago if mr elliott's lawyers or anyone else working on bill's defense team had contacted me earlier i would have told them all the information in this affidavit and would have testified in court if necessary. They don't call him this mother in the upcoming trial. This is the victim's mother. On the morning of January 2, 2001, at approximately 9.30 a.m., my husband and I went to my son's residence because my daughter had told us that she had been unable to reach either her brother or Dana on the phone. When we arrived,

the street to Robert and Dana's home was blocked off. My husband parked the car and we got out of the car to see what was going on. The police approached us and said there was a problem but wouldn't tell us what happened.

Oh, that's horrible. The parking lot in front of my son's home was filled with people. I saw police and reporters there. I knew that Rebecca Oh, that's horrible. Oh Oh my God. Three days later, the police asked who could have killed Robert and Dana. And I said, without a moment's hesitation, Rebecca Gregg, Robert told me and his father, if anything happened to him, Rebecca was involved. Robert and Rebecca both had violent tempers. Robert had attended anger management classes and learned to control his temper. Rebecca, however, when she got mad, was an evil person. When Bunny got mad, she got an adult front finder. That's what she would do there.

On February 5th, my son came home from picking up his kids in West Virginia. Robert had been beaten badly. What? He had been hit a number of times in the face and had a black eye and injuries to his nose. It appeared these injuries had just happened to him. He blurted out that Rebecca's husband, Jamie Gregg, she's got an ex-husband as well somewhere, who's not fully out yet, fully off of her name and all that, had his cousins and his cousins beat him in front of his kids and that Rebecca had set it all up.

What the fuck? Holy shit. Robert then told me the following about what happened to him. He had driven to Barto, West Virginia to pick up his kids. When he arrived at where Rebecca Gregg was staying, the children weren't there and she told him she was going to pick them up. When she returned with the children, she said she needed to get car seats. Normally, Rebecca let Robert take the car seats when he picked up the children she said she needed to get car seats normally rebecca let robert take the car seats when he picked up the children rebecca offered to buy the car seats and robert

gave uh her the money uh yes so although the store was only 45 minutes away it took three and a half hours to return a few minutes after she returned a pickup arrived with three men i'm sure in the back um one was jamie gragg and the other was his cousin, Louis Ray. It was Ray Lewis' oxymoronic alter ego. Bizarro Ray Lewis. That's what they called Ray Lewis in fourth grade. That's what it was. Louis Ray yelled at Robert

and began to beat him in front of the children. There was no... There was no hospital in Bartow so robert had to drive one hour before he could report the incident and receive medical attention jesus christ that is some bullshit they eat groundhog for breakfast there i feel like yeah during the investigation and before uh larry bill's first trial my husband and i told mr willett who's his defense attorney, and Mr. Ebert about Robert being beat up in West Virginia by Rebecca's

husband. We also gave Mr. Ebert pictures that were taken of Robert that showed the injuries. The prosecutors showed no interest in the photos or the fact that those who beat up Robert may have been the ones who murdered him later. Okay. That's a fair thing to look into, I would say.

That's legitimate. Three people beat you half to death? Well, maybe they wanted to finish the job. Right. Was there a truck nearby? Yeah, right? Rebecca would say later on, she said later on in court that her and Robert had sex in October of 2000. Oh.

A couple months before the murders. Yeah. Now, she says, this is what Rebecca said, so the mother says, I don't believe that Robert would have sex with her since they were having

a heated child custody battle. It would not be beyond Rebecca to use that against Robert. She would have turned it into a rape charge against Robert. Robert just wouldn't have taken the chance because he wanted his kids.

He obtained, that's a his kids. He obtained. That's a shaky theory. He might have banged her. Who knows? It's, you know, he obtained custody of the kids in June 2000 and was supposed to have them until August 2000. The court awarded Robert temporary custody for another two months. Rebecca was not happy about Robert getting the children or that he was building a house for Dana and that Dana and Robert were happy. He didn't sleep with her and you know that's i mean an an ex being upset that someone's moved on with their

life and they're happy super weird yeah so rebecca's as a mother wasn't going to let anyone have her kids and she would do anything to keep her children mr uh blah blah that's a different person they're talking about here so uh if re found this out, there was the hearing. There was a chance that Robert was going to get the kids. She wouldn't have let him have the kids. This is how I feel. She had to do some have something to do with Robert and Dana's murders. guilty phase or later on blah blah blah the guilt phase so um anyway the father says the same thing the father gives the exact same description of all of that the two things and then in the end said quote it is my experience that rebecca is an evil evil person two evils yeah she's going to keep on doing what she did what she's doing because she feels she can get away with it and she can make money from it until somebody puts a stop to her. Yeah.

All right. I want to talk to that dad off the record. I want to hear all the horrible things he says about her. Oh, my God. Imagine. Well, you'd be surprised. It's so hard. You're right.

I know. I got one, too. So the trial. Virginia allows for the death penalty for people who kill more than one person in a three year period. Oh, shit. So like, you know, like a serial killer stopper almost. So he killed two in a night. So he is up for the death penalty as well.

Holy shit. The prosecutor said in his opening, obsession can be a powerful thing. And he that's that was his big thing. He was obsessed. Now, Larry Bill's attorney said that he simply became smitten with a, quote, cunning, manipulative, world-class fabricator. Maybe true. That's possibly true as well. That doesn't make...

A defense that does not make make you can't just say nope no uh one of his attorneys henry ass bill larry bill and ass bill ass bill and larry bill larry bill this is my attorney ass bill henry ass bill henry ass bill he's a henry ass motherfucker. I'll tell you something, what, boy? His name's Bill, but that's a Henry-ass Bill. It's a Henry-ass Bill, buddy. I'll tell you what. This is a mess.

This is getting confusing. He said his client had nothing to do with the killings and never stepped foot on the home and the property, even though his DNA is on the back gate. They said Rebecca was on her way back from a florida vacation that's what the the prosecutor's saying she couldn't have done it um and all that kind of shit they also talk about her phone call the phone call to her and that's

what they're going to try to say here they also said that uh they asserted there was this is from that investigator that works for Larry bill. They said in his opening, Mr. Will at the prosecutor asserted there was only one intruder and that the intruder fired three shots up the stairs, then fired three shots into Finch whose body then crashed down the stairwell and landed at the foot of the steps,

which is one of the theories. They don't have an exact theory of how exactly the order of when and where it happened. They don't really have that theory. They just think whatever, however it happened, they ended up dead and they think he did it. You know, they have A and C and they're assuming B based on those. Willett, the prosecutor said, quote, he had to pistol whip her into submission so he could reload and execute her. And he dumped five shots in her. So that makes perfect sense.

The only way to prove B is to admit you were there when it happened. So that puts a big burden on the defense. That hurts. That's a lot. So both the prosecutor and the defense attorney said that Larry Bill's hopes for a relationship with Bunny never materialized. And that Bunny used him to pay bills and nothing else yeah so uh ass bill said quote he was a lonely he was a lonely but gregarious friendly middle-aged fool he wanted companionship more than anything else and she saw him as an easy mark yeah i would say that's

probably right i don't disagree with any of that um they said that the they this is from that investigator. Again, the prosecution asserted Robert Finch was shot as he was coming down the stairs. There's no basis and evidence to support that conclusion. No blood from Finch on the stair carpet or on the stairway wall or banister. No evidence of damage to the basket at the foot of the stairs here. There's also no basis and evidence for the prosecution's assertions that the assailants fired three shots up the stairs at Finch. Rather, the crime scene photos, the location of the bullet wounds, the evidence that failed that he failed to brace himself as he fell and the powder burns on his clothing.

That's close. Indicating the assailant was close. Uh, all indicate that Finch was not shot in the stairway, but shot between the front door and the bottom of the stairs where he was found when they when police arrived i'll buy that none of that means that larry bill didn't do it though truth yeah that's the thing it's whether he shot him on the stairs or at the bottom of the stairs it doesn't matter it doesn't matter at all verdict comes in five hours of deliberation for this one just five verdict comes in guilty as charged of fucking capital murder here during sentencing um the state's attorney here prosecutor said there's no question that

if mr elliott hadn't hadn't gotten involved with rebecca gragg two people would be alive today but he killed them to think about eliminating someone uh is what the death penalty is designed to prevent um now uh dana's sister or i'm sorry robert finch's sister jennifer who's dana's friend too said quote he looked right into dana's eyes and beat the life out of her and didn't even care worse they said did it well her kids were upstairs oh yeah knew they were upstairs. Oh, yeah. Knew they were upstairs. That's an aggravator, right? It should fucking should be, right? She said that it makes me angry that he showed no remorse for what he did when the verdict was read. This is during sentencing.

Then this is Dana's older sister said she doesn't believe that even a death sentence will change much for the family other than giving them some solace that the bad guy won't ever be out on the streets she did say quote i want dana scream to haunt him that's a good line yeah that's a fucking that's good shit there because that would be good for him fuck him now the defense team tried to put the blame on bunny here telling them that the jury um telling the jury that she wanted that robert out of her life because of the custody dispute, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He says, quote, one of the attorneys said, quote, there's no question that Mr. Elliott fell in love with Rebecca Greg and a more unfortunate circumstance cannot be contemplated. This is a case that cries out on its humanness. It's completely understandable in human terms. It cries out for him to be punished severely and harshly, but it does not call out for the death penalty.

Okay. The jurors deliberate for more than 10 hours over three days for this. They're fighting over it. And it comes back, you, sir, may fuck off death penalty. Yes, it's earned. They give him the death penalty here so he also receives life in prison for the murders and a mandatory eight years in prison on weapons violations as well so um yeah now rebecca bunny she says he told me at first he just wanted to help make my life

better for my children and what he actually did was tear our lives apart how dare you you were for 69 well i mean there's no crime in that if anything i feel like he's getting off easy yeah he's getting off easy he won't have to live with this for the for very long and we'll have to live with it for the rest of our lives once again i'm the victim wow she can find a way to have two people being murdered and a man being put to death as she's the victim. That's fucking wild. Is she not arrested? No.

What? Not arrested at all. No, they never arrest her. He won't. I don't know what kind of hold. I don't know what kind of hold not fucking her has on him, but he never says that she put him up to it. And that's that. He won't say that she put him up to it and that's that he won't say that she put him up to it because he won't admit he did it well if he says she put him up to it

then he has to say he did it yeah yeah so he's got to say i didn't do anything and then therefore he gets to walk he called her before called her after yeah she was fucking involved you guys what the shit she didn't say oh I should call the cops. I think he might have hurt them. I am fucking floored, man. So within the next year, though, he is granted a new trial. What? After the jurors discover, or the defense attorneys discover juror misconduct.

Okay. They found out that they learned that it is in the final days of the three week murder trial when a friend of larry bill's claimed she overheard a juror a friend claimed these are two things now we're these are multiple separate you know what is it uh degrees of separation you know what i mean claim a friend of larry bill's claims she overheard a juror talking about the case in the courtroom cafeteria in a closed hearing during the trial. Diane D. Giovanni said that she heard the juror tell a stranger that Larry Bill had not taken the stand in his own defense and that her husband said that essentially meant that he was guilty. So she said, quote, he didn't even testify. And then she said, my husband always says they

never testify uh so there you go now the juror uh here who is a gene myers articola of manassas told the court that she never said anything about elliot's decision not to testify she said quote he asked me what i was doing and i was very reticent to reply to him. I should have just walked away and said nothing. I suppose talking about talking to that person. She acknowledged the conversation and that her husband testified that they also had a brief conversation about the case. The stranger who had the conversation with her said that they talked about Larry Bill not test testifying but she said that it didn't jesus christ so anyway the judge said that the integrity of the verdict was hopelessly compromised by the jurors misconduct new trial new trial oh my god she said the juror felt terrible she said i would have never said anything like that and i didn't say anything like that we did our jobs and i'm confident confident he'll be convicted again. It was an extremely convincing case. So the reaction to this was his lawyer, Larry Bill's lawyer, said that, quote, Mr.

Elliott is ecstatic. He has professed his innocence all along. He was facing the notion that he was once again that he was going to die. Now he's back to being not guilty and presumed innocent. All right. All right. All right. Yeah. He's all good here.

Based on what the Constitution says, but sir. Yeah. Come on, man. Holy shit. Now, Thrall's family said, it's hard on us because we already told the boys the bad man won't be able to hurt them again. What do we tell them now? Now we're right back to the beginning and we have to open all these wounds back up again.

Well, the good news is you don't have to tell them shit right now. You don't have to. I was going to say. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to tell them shit. Yeah, you can just go, yep, still bad man. He's still in jail. Not like he bought a house next door.

Now, Finch's sister said, we shut that door and it was almost behind us. Then, bam, we're slammed with it again. It's just killing us. It's horrible. I believe it. So, new trial. New trial, same great taste, basically. Oh, my God. Except Rebecca's got a new twist to her testimony now.

Oh, Bunny. Bunny said that she testifies under oath that she and Larry Bill had sex. Well, let's give it, this is what Larry Bill will say later. In my second trial, Rebecca Gregg testified that she thought that I had sex with her on the night before she was supposed to have surgery for breast augmentation after she had supposedly taken some relaxation medication. She said she was surprised that he would have sex with me without my knowledge and that he had taken advantage of me while i was not coherent i guess under the medication that's what she testified to in court in the second trial he says her

testimony is false the event she described that night never happened since she claimed it occurred when she and i were alone together in a hotel room i was guess i'm the only person who could have refuted that testimony but he doesn't testify so he is found fucking guilty again. Yeah. Now he's a rapist, too. Yeah, now he's been called a rapist in open court, and that's been codified by the judge, by the jury. So during the sentencing, the county attorney here, the prosecutor, said that Thrall's two children are still afraid and that, quote, this world would be a better place without people like Mr. Elliot in it Dana's sister who's now

raising Dana's two sons at the time this was going on said that the boys talk about their mother every day and have lived in fear that the bad man might someday return to get them to in closing argument the one of the lawyers said that Dana's nine year old son wroteold son wrote that Larry Bill needs to be punished.

Larry needs to die for killing my mom. That's what he deserves. A nine-year-old said that. So Larry Bill speaks out in his own defense here during the sentencing phase. phase he cries tears yeah sobs blamed his murder conviction on lies and told the courtroom uh lies told in the courtroom and on quote gestapo tactics on the part of police detectives and then criticized holes as big as a truck in their case like a pickup truck with the defense parked out in front of a murder scene. He said he felt sorrow for the victims here, for their families, but he denied any role in their deaths.

He said, quote, it is not humanly possible for me to have done the things I was accused of. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Now, Robert's father, Finch's father, at this point does not believe Elliot's guilty. What? So Robert's father, Finch's father, at this point does not believe Elliot's guilty. Why? They completely get off the Larry Bill train. And he said they asked him to testify in this sentencing phase. And he says, quote, this is in a court deposition, but I'm not going to participate or I'm not going to allow myself to make a tragic situation any tragicker. That's what he said.

Any more tragic, but he said any more tragic but tragiker more tragic then he corrects himself more tragic by you know killing somebody especially when i don't believe he's guilty what what does he think happened what's his theory because come on man there's blood what are you doing defense his truck was there the defense attorney says people think he's a nice guy they call him the peacemaker i mean but they also call a 45 a peacemaker. So I mean, those are vicious. Those are vicious. He said, quote, We would all like to be judged not just on the worst day of our life, but on the totality of our life.

And then he said a death sentence is not going to bring anyone back. Love, rage and jealousy won't go away. We're not going to scare. We're not going to scare us all out of what the dark side of human nature is oh my and um the prosecutor said she didn't make him kill those people he had to have the ill will the hate the selfishness and the cruelty to do what he did you sir yeah may fuck off death penalty again good so, yeah, they said Rebecca Gregg talks about afterwards Bunny, if you will. She talks about her third polygraph later on after that.

She said she had a completely different attitude that day. And basically she was told she was being deceptive and she didn't appreciate that. But, you know, she said at this point, I don't think the jury was presented the whole story, but merely facts that were twisted. The trial left me asking more questions. She said,

I didn't really believe that Bill Elliot had anything to do with the murder, but when he said the crazy stuff on the telephone that I told the police about, I took that to be something between Bill and his wife. Oh my God. I have a bunch of bloody rags and jerry the murderer just did something that's something between him and his wife what are you fucking talking about she switched her story eight times it's too many times it's too many times larry bill says we've all made a huge mistake everybody let's back up the train he said but i did not do it i didn't do it he says um i will emphatically say that i did not do it this is he tells the the reporters after that he said

i've been spending as much time as possible going over the information in the case looking at the crime scene trying to figure out what happened in that house this is larry bill i want to know who actually killed these people i've teamed up with oj simpson and between us we've started a company called the real killers foundation where we team up to find the real killers of falsely convicted people's murder victims he said the sad realization is that it's a case that's so vile that there is a public outcry to have this resolved and in that sense of urgency to solve the crime and to prosecute it, they totally missed the boat. I don't want to think it's possible that I was set up, but I think it's possible.

Lair. Set up. Lair. No. Now he says the blood spot may have gotten on the townhouse back fence there because he said he was behind the house in December and may have touched the fence. He said it would have been long before the killings. But he explained the cut on his hand as I was at a West Virginia football game on New Year's Day.

I went to the bowl game, cut my hand getting some kegs out of a block of ice. I was putting some limes in my Corona. And he has other counterintelligence people from the army give affidavits to say they were there with him and saw him slice his hand with a fucking ice or they thought it was believable or whatever it is. So anyway, he says that he wonders what his life would have been

like if he had never met Bunny. He said, I fully admitted from day one that I'm guilty of having a relationship that I shouldn't have had. I'm guilty of providing a woman and her children lots of money, half of which was rightfully my wife's, but I'm not guilty of murder. He said in that sense,

the urgency to solve the crime, they just totally missed the boat. Dana Thrall's dad, enter. William Joseph Thrall. Come on. I attended both of Larry Bill's trials. During the first trial, I thought the prosecution's case

was weak and factually insufficient to convict anyone of capital murder what this victim's father i also thought the defense did a poor job on following through with theories for example during the trial prosecution talked about robert's very large mastiff named naughty and how police would not go near the rear of the townhouse because of the dogs barking and aggressive behavior but the defense never followed through and ask anyone uh ask why anyone especially bill Bill Elliott, was going to cross that back deck and climb over the locked gate with that huge dog lunging after him. During the second trial, the prosecution didn't put on any better of a case, but they but defense didn't put on much of a case at all. The first trial went five to seven days. The second trial ended in two to three days. I could

not believe how poor the defense was in either trial. Even if he was involved in some way, I am not convinced that Larry Bill Elliott was the shooter. What is happening? I believe the police investigation was inept and inadequate from the beginning. As Dana's administrator,

I cleaned and repaired her townhouse after the murders. Absolutely. This was some small town shit. At one point, Dana's administrator, I cleaned and repaired her townhouse after the murders. Absolutely. This was some small town shit. At one point, they interviewed somebody in a bar and drank beer while they did it.

You can't drink beer while you interview people for a murder case. I just got some questions for you. Yeah, I'm an alcoholic. I'll have one too. I'll have an IPA. Why not?

He said, I found bongs and other drug paraphernalia at the house. Also, after the police released Dana's house, of robert's friends came over to the townhouse and went straight for the attic i don't know what they were looking for or whether they took anything afterwards i told the police that these guys went into the attic and that i had found drug paraphernalia i asked the police how they knew the murders weren't drug related they responded that they were not going to

pursue that avenue and that we have the man who did it and they weren't going to do anything to help the defense so yeah we're not going to cloud it up with more different things we have a we have a theory and we're running viable suspect yeah when i asked next about the house how could robert and dana afford the house the police didn't want to hear any part of that either this is dana's father by the way his father saying he was involved in drugs and selling drugs and that's how they bought the house yeah they had larry bill and that was it um even though there was drug paraphernalia in the house the investigators didn't want to look into it because in their words they quote didn't want to open a can of worms that would help the defense they did not pursue the drug issues or the unknown

source of large amounts of money which may may have supplied other motives for the murder. They set their sights on Bill Elliott and were unwilling to look anywhere else. Detective Hoffman called me three to four weeks after the murder and told me he wanted to take the back gate because they found blood on it. After they took the gate, I built a new gate and put it up. I've often wondered if there was blood on that back gate, why wasn't it taken on day one? I don't disagree at all. They just took pictures and a sample. I have not spoken directly to Dana's

children, my grandchildren, as they were whisked away to California right after the murders. However, I have heard that one of the kids said he saw either a black man or a man wearing black running from the rear of the townhouse. I believe that.

Although the police talked to the boy, to my knowledge, the police never pursued this lead because they wanted to protect the boys. Also, at night, you don't know what. Yeah. It's night to pitch black out. Who's to say that Larabelle wasn't wearing black? That's what I mean. You're wearing black and it's nighttime.

You don't know what a six-year-old sees. I saw a guy. You don't know. a six-year-old sees i saw a guy you don't know yeah everything yeah that was that was ladies and gentlemen my uh partner andrew jackson that came across as you were like yeah of course it's a black guy that killed him obviously that's how that came across like everybody's a black guy that's i was like wait a second um it's three i mean there's dead people of course it was a black guy i was like wait that's not what he means. I speak fluent Jimmy, and he means a completely different thing. He means everybody.

Blair Bill was wearing black. And everybody. Everybody at three in the morning. Black you because it's dark. Exactly. There you go. I believe Rebecca Gregg was behind the murders. Her trip to Florida was just too convenient and out of the ordinary.

I believe she did it to set up an alibi. I have a hard time believing a career military officer with a daughter Dana's age could shoot Dana, pistol whip her, and shoot her again. Rebecca lied on the stand when she said she loved Dana. I know from talking to Dana that they hated each other. Dana did not like Rebecca, and Rebecca did not like Dana. Dana had Robert, and Dana was younger and had a natural beauty that Rebecca doesn't have. I think I think these things

ate at Rebecca. It's my belief that Larry Bill Elliott should not have received the death penalty. That serves no purpose. It doesn't solve anything for me. I do believe others besides Larry Bill Elliott were involved. I'm on that side too. Dana's father. But I got some things to say. He was in the neighborhood. He was at least hanging out involved in it he was there he put himself

there i think uh he may have gone in the back door one way or another he got in the house these people died he went out the back not realizing that that dog was there or not remembering or whatever thought it would be penned up what i think he got out there saw that dog fucking ran and jumped and cut himself that's what i think happened that's possible yeah that's very possible naughty cracked this case i really do i think he would have definitely um seen i think he would have known about the dog only because he's been there hundreds of times surveillance and a counterintelligence guy would know every in and out and you know that sort of thing but i i could see if maybe i don't know i could see if he put maybe he put the dog outside or maybe the dog got put outside maybe he fucking i'm not sure he could have jumped he could have went to go out the front because the storm door is blowing open that's the only thing

that makes me think that why would he go out the back the dog's there and the storm door is blowing open so maybe he didn't shut that storm door when he went in the front who knows he might have came up put his hand up on the gate to jump over it realized the dog was out there and then walked away yeah we don't fucking know and left a spot of blood on it he might not have even used it we don't know so uh robert's younger sister said she's not surprised that elliot's claiming innocence though this family split on this shit robert's younger sister says i's not surprised that Elliot's claiming innocence, though. This family split on this shit. Robert's younger sister says, I see that two juries have convicted him on the evidence that was shown. So, yes, I think he's guilty.

I don't think we'll ever get any remorse from him, though. He's Larry Bill says the relationship I had with Rebecca Gregg has been mischaracterized. Early on, there was a compassion, a sense of caring and a real passion that relationship transformed over time in a relationship that had uh promise at the end she was just looking for money i was in love with the person she pretended to be i was not obsessed with her so he still snowed she was looking for money the whole time larry and you were looking for sex and you kept giving and kept giving and kept giving and thought that maybe eliminating that man will be the solution that's what happened he went to a rigged carnival game and he thought after the first kind of times i bought all these

balls to throw in a thing that was too small i think the guy was on my side after that was trying to help me do it better no always after your money i just bought every seat on the row and then guaranteed myself a win. And then they were like, you can't do that, sir. You get no prize. Oh, my God. That's amazing. Now, later on, Bunny will say he would have to say those types of things to maintain his stance that he's innocent.

The police thoroughly checked out every aspect of my life. I gave them free reign to my home and my computer, and I was cooperative with them from the very beginning, which we know isn't true. Yeah, right away. So this all goes through. He writes the governor for clemency. Okay, there's a whole, you know, a clemency attempt here. And he says that he would have loved to have taken the stand. But on the advice of his counsel, he didn't take the stand that's what it was he uh yeah he said also they said that the prosecution would have wanted to ask questions about their his personal relationship with bunny and ask about all the money i gave her and how much how i met her through the internet and it would have made me you know look bad he said his lawyers told him that i was not the type of witness who wants uh who wants to put so many details in my answer to answer who wants to put so many details in my answer to answer questions they feel the jury would misunderstand my personal style and think i was being evasive so um yeah he talks about being cooperative and you know i was

a good guy he talks about she called me that night on january 1st and said she was driving up from florida he says at 3 20 a.m he was at 7 11 getting a cup of coffee and there is video surveillance of him at 7 11 getting a cup of coffee at 3 20 a.m okay that's fine all this happened at 4 a.m and later so that's great you're getting coffeed up that's it um yeah he said that uh he said that he didn't even see any anybody delivering newspapers that's bullshit um you know he said also the the mary bracewell bracewell woman said that she saw a guy with a skinny build and he said i'm 5 11 and at the time i weighed 200 pounds so i'm more stocky james so in the middle of the night when i'm running, I might look pretty good in all black.

That's what I mean. Yeah, you might look a little slimmer. I might. So, now he said he talked to Rebecca that morning, to Bunny, and she said that she told me that she had called Mr. Finch earlier and the discussion ended with them arguing with each other. She said that she was going to call him back and deliberately attempt to upset him. Because she said that she told me

that she expected Mr. Finch would cool down from the argument by going outside to smoke marijuana and she asked me to be ready to photograph him doing so. In hindsight, it now seems to me like the perfect setup by her so as to have me be in the area near the time of the crimes but at that at that time i had no reason to doubt her motives so he's saying she drew him there to get photos of him smoking weed and at the same time she had other people kill him and he was like oh no so you're saying a man uh with a wife and kids is on call to go take pictures at three. Yeah.

Fucking a.m. Three a.m. And a job, by the way. He said there was no one delivering newspapers when I parked and exited my truck, nor did I see anyone walking or driving on the street where I had parked. I took my camera with me, walked around the area. They called the cops and said they saw you with your fucking truck. It doesn't matter if you saw them or not.

You should pay attention more. You are a attention more. You're a bad murderer. Bad at counter-surveillance intelligence, you dumb fuck. Well, this guy double-depped, James. We rehired him. God damn it. So he goes on and on and on and on about bullshit.

Finally, it says, in regard to the blood drop that the police said was found at the back gate, here's what I can say. When I was interviewed by police detectives, they repeatedly asked me about the front of the townhouse on the night of the murders. For example, they asked if I had gone up to the front door of the townhouse that night and asked if I had knocked on the front door.

The answer that I repeatedly gave them was no and I gave that same answer now under oath. So he's saying that December 29th or 30th he had touched the back gate that's the most likely source of blood yada yada yada that's this whole thing he goes on for so fucking long it's ridiculous in the end he says i continue to believe that my innocence will eventually be proven and i hope that the governor will recognize how questionable and unreliable the

evidence is against me and spare my life what so he he has friends saying that he cut his face or cut his hand with the beer um because he said he went for a bowl game and all that uh to west virginia his wife said in a this is just a funny line our marriage had been strained for some time has bill consistently kept late hours and i reached the point where i really didn't care whether he came home or not. She also says when he came home that night, I didn't notice anything unusual about him, nor did I notice any blood on his person or his clothes.

Bill took out his suitcase and personal gear and left it, left it in the house. I understand that someone has said there was some trash bags and Bill's truck that morning when he took our daughter to school. I believe whoever said that's mistaken. I did not observe any flash, any trash bags. She said his speech and mannerisms were normal and he wasn't acting fidgety or nervous as well full of coffee full of fun yeah he's fine through 7 11 coffee from three o'clock in the morning she said though he kept the cleaning of the truck that's very

normal because he keeps his truck pristine all the time he cleans it twice a week um she said that she does recall in 2000 bill hit a deer with his truck and put all the time. He cleans it twice a week. She said that she does recall in 2000 Bill hit a deer with his truck and put the deer in the back of his truck. I wouldn't be surprised if there's still some traces of deer blood in the back of the truck as well. So if they found some blood they can't figure out, maybe that's it. Washes it two times a week? That shit

still there? Oh yeah. Fuck out of here. Still there. His friends said that he called him peaceable and non-violent and all of this shit. So the governor, Tim Kaine, he says, given the nature of these crimes and the facts that were presented at trial, I have no reason to question the prosecutor's decision to seek the death penalty or the jury's decision that the death was an appropriate sentence.

He said that, adding that the complicated nature of the case required extra care given irreversible nature of an execution. So keep on keeping on shit bag. Go on. This is when Clayton Finch, the father of Robert Finch, he also petitioned Governor Tim Kaine to commute this sentence. The father of the victim did. Yes. He said he believes Elliot did not deserve to die for his crimes he said that finch and his wife were

the only family witnesses who are scheduled to see the execution from the from the room and he said uh yeah he doesn't want it to happen he he didn't want it to happen wow november 18th 2009 is uh execution day really clemency denied uh the media there's four media witnesses six official citizen witnesses chosen for the execution eight years that is a fast track oh yeah that's absolutely they bring him in by the way he chose electrocution really you could choose fucking uh lethal injection or electric chair. He chose the electric chair. The balls. 90 of the past 93 executions chose lethal injection.

Yeah. Because it's a little less fucked up. Or it's a lot less. 1,800 volts at 7.5 amps. Oh, my God. Flow through the body for 30 seconds, followed by 60 seconds of 240 volts at 1.5 amps and then they then they repeat it dear god last meal he consumes his last meal holy shit you want to really hate this guy what's he eat james he asked that his choice of meal not be revealed to the public

and they listen to him it's never been revealed fuck off sir you mother fucker god damn it he fucking did it that's an asshole yeah this is like scott peterson with a bite of pizza that proves it he fucking did it that proves it jesus christ uh spiteful son of a bitch you fucking asshole there's a there's a whole description by the way very disturbing of the a reporter that is a witness and how they the exact like step by step of getting there being taken in the whole thing of how it works it's pretty fucking wild the warden asked if he had any final words and he blurted out quickly that he wasn't sure how much time he'd be allowed so he prepared a statement that he'd given to his attorneys who will read it later don't forget it it to you. Don't worry about it.

They will do it. So the warden stands toward the back of the room, asks the corrections official, shall we proceed? The official's on a telephone with an open line to the governor's office just in case the governor wants to go, hold on, change of mind. Literally, they're just sitting there listening. So they do all of that. The warden turned to another

correctional officer who turned a key in the wall activating the electrical system holy shit and then another officer who's concealed in a room the execution like this is the executioner room hits a button marked quote this is what the button says like a cartoon it says execute oh i thought it said do not press no it says execute that's the execute the person button how kill a person kill a person so they do kill him and uh he is dead and that is that they never charge rebecca nothing ever happens bunny is still 469 i don't know if she's alive or not but she's she's not jail for murder. I'll tell you that fucking much. That is shocking.

He is killed. This seems like there's just too much confusion to kill anybody for. There's too much weird shit to kill anybody for. Prison's fine. I was really jacked about it for a second because I thought they were going to get Bunny for life. I get it. It's a super fucked murder, and I thought they were going to get her, too. I'm not real. But this is.

No, that's a life without, right? This is ridiculous. Yeah. So I don't feel like justice was served in any way, shape, or form. I feel like someone that might have helped could possibly allegedly be walking free. There's way too much in limbo. While someone else is executed. Four kids have no parents.

Two innocent people were murdered. The whole thing's a fucking disaster. And that, everybody, is small town murder. It's all fucked. It's all fucked out panhandle behavior here it is if you enjoy that tell the world get on whatever app or platform you're listening to and give us five stars and say something nice because it actually does help drive us up the charts which is very helpful for the show helpful for the show follow us on social the show. Follow us on social media at Murder Small on Twitter at Small Town Pod

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patreon.com slash crime and sports get all of your bonus materials there uh you'll also get a shout out at the end of the show coming up in a minute where jimmy will mispronounce your name but you're gonna get bonus shows you're gonna get four bonus episodes a month yeah sometimes every other week sometimes six every other week you're gonna get two new episodes coming out one crime and sports one small town murder and you're gonna get access to all of it anybody five dollars a cup of coffee will get you less than like five hours less than A cup of coffee will get you less than five hours. Less than a cup of coffee will get you

five hours worth of good, crazy material. And this week is no exception. Also, you're going to have access to the back catalog of bonus stuff. So much stuff if you're looking for something to binge. And also, you are going to get this week's episodes, which we are going to do fun stuff here. First of all, we did

the Chris Benoit murder right last week for crime and sports and these are these are crazy conspiracy theories of the chris benoit murder there's a lot of people out there who say he didn't do it the theories range very deeply and there's a crazy wrestler who gave an interview very passionately with these theories, and he has paperwork. It's crazy. It's fucking insane. Then for small-town murders bonus, you are going to get – we're going to talk about Russell Williams, who is the Canadian BTK killer, I like to call him. He was right on the same line, but actually worse because he was smarter and a little bit more efficient with the whole thing, and had more military precision. Oh, God, the official job he had.

High-ranking Air Force officer in Canada, and one little, tiny, unassuming-looking interrogator sat his ass down and went from this guy being, I'm the king of the world, to, in an hour, let me see a map and I'll show you where the bodies are. It's incredible to talk about this interrogation we'll talk all about him that is patreon.com slash crime and sports and uh it is time for the other half of that which is the shout outs jimmy i would like you to hit me with these shout outs hit me very hard like someone who has just given you 450 000 for absolutely

no sexual activity hit me with them now. This week's executive producers are Calvin Holland and the Jeepers and Loggers of BC. He sent a huge donation for whatever reason. Wow. Thank you so much. You're a sweetheart of a man, Calvin. Thank you so much. Keep on jeeping and logging.

That's terrific. And another Canadian, Jordan Bennett, obviously. Ah, we love Jordan Bennett. Every goddamn week. Thank you, Jordan. Thank you, Jordan. Tasha Messmer in PA. She's fantastic as well. And you, Jordan. Thank you, Jordan. Tasha Messmer in PA. She's fantastic as well.

And Ben Gunn, thank you all so much. You're amazing. Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Navin Johnson, Rosa Martinez, Brother Angel. Navin Johnson. Happy Hour in Hartford, Connecticut. Frank the South African Bird Washer. Dorothy May, happy birthday.

It was her 83rd birthday in Australia. It's Justine McNeil's grandmother, I believe. i believe or just mother i don't know it's a relative happy 83rd birthday fucking somebody gaitano biagio petrogallo donated this week oh that's me that's me that's what my name might have been i I know. Bo Kackey, Sherry Ivers, happy birthday. Joe Buckley, Cammie Struncy, I think. Carrie Bose, Hannah Gabrielle, Adam Carpenter, James Madovich, Cheryl Swanson, Foolish Genius, Jacqueline Rose Elmo, Angel Nobody No Crime Baker, Elena S., J. LaCalhoun, Aaron Switzer, Janet Dow, Catherine with no last name, Amber Baker, Fartbox, Wayne Westland.

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Popular guy, the mayor of Beertown. It's a gal, Carly Hunter, unless it's a guy. Who knows? Who fucking knows? Katie Patelli, Rachel Gaunt, Caden Warren, Kim Heuvin, Michelle Moore, John Breckard, Bryce Dangler, what? Roar Wade, Kyle with no last name. Janie Stancil. Bethany Phillips. Katie Workman-Berger. Bradley Wheeler.

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I don't know. Uncle Sherry. What? Kim John Will. And also Raphael Rocio. And all of our patrons. You guys are fantastic. Thank you. Thank you

so much everybody. So much for all that you do for us. We really do appreciate it. Thank you for being a member of Patreon. You are the heartbeat of the fucking show. So thank you. We do this for you and we care more what you think than most people. So thank you so much for what you do for us.

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We'll say hello. That said, until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.