Small Town Murder - #302 - Too Gruesome To Solve - Columbus, Wisconsin

Episode Date: July 28, 2022

This week, in Columbus, Wisconsin, when a young man comes home from the night shift at the paper factory, he finds his wife, bludgeoned, strangled, stabbed, and worse. But police don't quite know where to look for suspects, with the husband having a seemingly fine alibi, and this new mother having no real enemies. A small town police force allows the case to go cold, but when it's finally looked at, again, there is a new theory, and suspect, after years of suspicion & gossip being pointed at he husband. But did he really do it? Was it the husband? The friend who drove past the house? Someone else? This one is a mystery, wrapped in riddle!Along the way, we find out that houses are cheap in rural Wisconsin, that it might not ALWAYS be the husband, and that cases are hard to solve with no physical evidence, or witnesses!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Columbus, Wisconsin, a gruesome and unnecessary murder leaves detectives looking at the person closest to the victim. But after the case goes cold, things become much more clear.

Welcome to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another crazy, wild edition of Small Town Murder. my name is James Petrigallo I'm here with my co-host I am Jimmy Wissman thank you folks so much for joining us today and another crazy wild edition of small town murder this one today my god is it weird just so crazy it's what it's a it's a whodunit it's a one of those it's a mystery

and it's we're gonna solve it by the end podcast clue oh baby it's a lot of fun before we get to that very quickly just want to thank everyone for all that you've done for us your reviews five stars on whatever app you're listening to that helps a lot trust us i don't know why but it helps drive you up the charts something yes head over to shut up and give me murder.com today what's there all your first of all your merchandise everything you could want is there everything from bath mats to coffee cups. It's all there. To skateboards and anything. More importantly, tickets to live shows. Somewhere to wear your merch. And that is

coming up. Live shows we have are August the 12th. We are in San Francisco at Cobb's Comedy Club. Two shows that night. They're going to be different shows. So if you want to come to both, you're going to see two different shows. So that'll be a good time. Tickets available. Tickets available. The next night we're in Sacramento.

That's Small Town Murder sold out, but Crime and Sports is available for the late show. And then also September the 10th at the Pabst in Milwaukee. Oh, Milwaukee. This is a Wisconsin episode. Make yourselves known. If we sell this out, this will be our biggest show we've ever done at the Pabst. Giant. Let's do it.

We'll be able to tell everybody. Wisconsin is the best damn group of listeners we have, and we'll be very happy. You can then brag to Chicago and Minneapolis about how much better you are. Even if the Vikings and Bears are better than the Packers, you can still brag about something. You never know what ends up happening. So do that. Come out and see us. Thank you for doing that as well.

Also, Florida. We're in Orlando and Tampa later on in the year. So do that. Come out and see us. Thank you for doing that as well. Also, Florida. We're in Orlando and Tampa later on in the year. I think that's in September. Get your tickets for those as well. All sorts of good stuff. Patreon. Oh, you want to sign up for Patreon. What's that?

Oh, my God. Patreon.com. Jimmy says, what's that? Like, you're not recording the episodes. Patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all the bonus episodes, and that is everything for small-town murder and crime and sports, and anybody that does $5 a month or more, you get access to all of it. Anything bonus we come out with,

and we're definitely going to get at least four shows a month, if not more. Sometimes six. Sometimes six. This week, what you're going to get for Crime and Sports, we're going to talk about John Rocker, who's just known as one of the great assholes of sports. Not great in terms of wonderful, great in terms of large. Just a huge, giant asshole.

We'll talk about him. He's said some crazy things over the years, and we'll recount them. Then for small-town murder, we are going to talk about a case that has been requested more than anything. As a matter of fact, just yesterday, somebody posted in one of the groups, hey, do this case. So it is in Skidmore, Missouri, and it's the case of a town bully who everyone hated. This guy, just the most hated man in town, and he's murdered before dozens of witnesses who refused to say anything. Upstanding people. This isn't like, you know, it wasn't a mob barbecue or anything like that.

This was just a small town people and he's so hated that no one will say anything. It's going to be awesome. So do that. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports and you'll get a shout out at the end of the show. Oh yeah, Jimmy will mispronounce your name even though he'd love to pronounce it correctly.

So we will do that and thank you for doing that as well disclaimer time here yeah oh boy this is a comedy podcast it's a comedy show we're comedians the stories are unfortunately 100 real it's true we couldn't make any of this up and we wouldn't anyway so here we go 100 real they're crazy uh we can't control that we can't control what people do all we can do is tell you about it and we make jokes but what we do is what we go out of our way to make sure not to do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims families why james because we're assholes yeah

but we're not scumbags there you that's how that works so if that sounds good to you we're gonna have a blast if not if you think true crime and comedy should never, never, never go together, I don't know what to tell you. Check it out. Might not be what you think it is. If not, no bitching anyway. I don't know what to tell you. You've been warned. That said, I think it's time to sit back, Jimmy, and everyone else out there.

Clear the lungs wherever you are. If you're in your home, if you're in your car, if you're somewhere semi-private. Let's not do this publicly and on a plane or in a school or something like that. Let's all sit back and shout. Shut up. Shut up. And give me murder. All right.

Let's do this, Jimmy. Oh, yeah. Let's go. Let's do it. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Okay. We are going to Wisconsin here, baby. Oh, yeah.

Oh, boy. Much like we will be doing on September the 10th at the Pabst. We will be going to Wisconsin. This is Columbus, Wisconsin. Where the fuck is that? That is in South Central Wisconsin. Every state has a Columbus somewhere. It's the capital of Ohio.

And here we are in South Central Wisconsin. It's about 40 minutes to Madison, to the west there, and then about an hour 15 to Milwaukee, to the east. So if you live in Columbus, you're in a great position to attend our show on September 10th at the Pabst. It's about, like I said, those, and then about an hour 29, about an hour and a half here to Raymond, Wisconsin, which was our last Wisconsin episode. Episode 259, which was A Bizarre Psychopath and His Porn was the name of it. And it lived up to the name. We'll just say that. This is in Columbia County, area code 920.

The motto is Red Bud City. What? Red Bud City. And the alternate motto that you hear around town is, What the fuck? I thought there was Bud here. What? Red Bud City. And the alternate motto that you hear around town is, what the fuck? I thought there was bud here. What happened? There's no. Oh, weed's illegal in Wisconsin.

This town sucks. Liars. It's a longer motto. Go Red Bud. I thought you guys had that. There's a lot of Red Bud things here. Later on, there's a Red Bud festival. And I'm like, oh, my God.

I'm just picturing Chevy Chase and Funny Farm. Is it a tree? I assume it's some tree or a bush or something like that that grows up north because Vermont is north like Wisconsin is. And Redbud and Funny Farm is in Vermont, if that didn't make sense to you why we've mentioned Vermont there. So history of this town. H.A. Whitney is the guy who started this who is from where jimmy vermont he's from vermont he's from red butt he's a red buddy and uh guys going by their initials i love that's a successful man h.a whitney from vermont here he sells things

he moved to columbus in 1845 and constructed the first wood frame store building in the community and that that's where whitney kind of grew around him where he put a store and it served as a store tavern rooming house post office it was just the all catch-all for the town he was the postmaster slash bartender slash desk clerk slash, you know, you name it. He's doing it all. Postman concierge. He's the concierge. He's the bellman.

He puts a different hat on, though. You ring a bell and he goes, hold on one minute. He puts a different hat on. He's like, how can I help you, sir? And he runs up with your bag. Bellhop hat in a postman uniform. That's it. Hey, how you doing?

Sure. Here's your mail and your bags. All right. This place, of course, in 1857, after being open for 12 years, burned directly to the ground, obviously. Of course it did. It's a wood-framed house where people are drunken,

so that's not going to go well. Yeah. And it was replaced by the current Whitney Hotel, which is still there in 1858. It's not really. It's different now, though. It went through many, many iterations. 1880s.

It used to do. This is weird. It turned into like a almost like a stopover, like a I don't know how to put this, like a transient hospital, sort of like people, health practitioners and doctors would come in from different places and set up shop here. And there were like expertise on very specific things. So if anyone in town had that, they'd take care of it. At one point they delivered a 40-foot long tapeworm in the ballroom of the Whitney. So that's a ball.

They set up triage? Oh, boy. Wow. Imagine catching that thing. It must have been like when the monster came out of will or something and seasoned like do you just like wrap that around your arm and take off walking 40 feet is a walk that's a lot of tapeworm you either have to kill it or tame it you can't just let it be free you're gonna name

it for sure yeah you have to kill it or tame it immediately murder it with a machete gross it seems like it'd be like fighting a dragon and like an old like a comic book or something like you'd have to 40 feet that's so much um any that was a uh a local couple there they had to do where did they take it out of somebody out of their ass i assume is that way out of their ass i think they go in that way i think they probably saw it peeking out. Yikes. Probably saw him peeking out.

At that point, you got to see claws, right? I think what you do is you get like a hunk of turkey or something, like a piece of chicken, maybe like a hot dog, and you cram it up there and try to bait it. Yeah, you bait it, and if it sticks his little head out, that's when you grab it with some forceps and fucking yank that bastard out, which i can't imagine what yanking a 40 foot tapeworm out of your ass feels like but that's got to be remarkably weird that's a mature table they tell you how long it is but i want to know i want to know how wide that thing oh god can you imagine person inch the person just withered they cheek sucked in and they fell to the ground they were half tape

worm 40 feet long but how wide oh man that's the real number i don't know uh so near the turn of the 20th century the ballroom was turned into an apartment and then it it went out through all sorts of shit over the years and that's all there is so reviews of this town here we go not a lot honestly it's a it's a small place and um it seems like they want to keep it quiet i don't know so i'm still i can't get that i mean either if i'm like 40 is that a tape i had to look it up yeah i had to like tapeworm that long not get tangled i had you think it'd be knotted and shit yeah oh you're on a knot wait stop stop doc stop oh god like bubble tape maybe it's all rolled up maybe it's remember bubble tape well you know what it's a tape we're thinking of it like it's a python

as in my head it's like jake the snake takes it to the ring everywhere but i think a tapeworm is relatively thin i think that's why it's a tapeworm. So that would probably, but still 40 feet. It had to be coiled in there. Even if it's thin, it's still fat because it lays, you know what I mean? They're flat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's not, it doesn't have like girth.

No. No. It's not like a big corncock or anything. It's got to coil up like fucking bubble tape, right? Yeah, I think you just bait it and yank it right out. I think that's what you do. I'm fucking fascinated. Yeah, you get your rod and reel out there and going fishing.

Get some stink bait in there. That's it, baby. Well, it's going to be stink bait either way by the time you're done with it. You're going to get some real stink bait. Really, really stinky bait. It could be potpourri when you put it in there. On the way out it's gonna be stinkbait so four stars four stars i'm the one who's talking about shit bait what are you talking

about are you sorry about four stars columbus is an area where people can live without having to worry about a lot of dramatic stuff on the streets except for taking a tape a 40 foot long tape that was 150 years ago though i mean i don't think this person's gonna recall the tape the great tapeworm incident from the 1870s so this is current it's nothing like milwaukee and it's a small town so everyone knows everyone again that's not a that's not a positive there isn't much for retail stores, so you have to drive somewhere for retail stores. But overall, it's a quaint little town with friendly people. You're 20 minutes from Madison. You're fine.

Yeah, 40 minutes from Madison. Not bad. 40, yeah. Three stars. I moved to Columbus in the middle of high school. It was extremely uninviting, and the students were not welcoming. Gee, small town, middle of nowhere, Wisconsin kids. I assume if you could hold your liquor, they'd probably be welcoming.

You just have to know how to do that. I moved from South Carolina, and I miss it terribly. I would not have chosen to move here if I knew that the people were going to be so rude. But they still give it three stars, though. That sounds like a one-star review. It must be gorgeous. Pretty is all get-out, though, I'll tell you. Every interaction I've had has been a personal hell, but just the trees and the fall, just majestic.

So population, 5,117. So pretty small place. Very small. A few more females than males. Median age is 36 and a half. It's right around average. males median age is 36 and a half it's right around average um a lot of zero kids that are like under four years old and 25 to 30 year old people those are the main groups so that makes sense you know what i mean that all kind of adds up mathematically the uh more people are married

here than normal almost 60 married it's uh that kind of place it's pretty family-ish. Race in this town, 93.7% white. Holy. 0.9% black. It's Wisconsin. I mean, that's kind of what Wisconsin's known for. You know what I mean? 90-something? Jesus.

Yeah, that sounds about Wisconsin, I think. Right? 1.6% Asian. 1.1% Hispanic. 1.1% Hispanic. Wow, that's low. It's normally 18%. That's very low. So religion in this town, 56% religious, which is higher than normal as well.

And the majority of them are Catholics, of course, here. Really? We didn't know that. Catholics, as you know, are the Baptists of the Great Lakes region. Your country. I don't know. Catholics of the brood. the frozen tundra catholics of the tundra there they are 0.0 percent jewish uh and uh politics in this town last election 48.5 percent democratic 50 percent republican 1.6 percent independent in

the last election. So, yeah, it's pretty close, like Wisconsin is. That's how kind of Wisconsin, that's, you know, pretty close. They kind of flip the parties, I guess, but, you know, pretty close to how the state voted. Economically in this town, pretty close to the average unemployment rate and everything, nothing major. The median household income here, $57,000 a year. It's usually about $54,000 a year, so that's about average. Cost of living here, $100,000 is average.

Here it's $90,000, so pretty normal. Housing, though, is the low one, actually. Median home costs $218,600, which is lower than the national average. Yeah. And we have some gems for you if you've decided that damn it the only place for you and i we should really tell you the things to do first because then you'd be you'd be you wouldn't be able to wait to move here we have for you the columbus wisconsin real estate report your average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $877 a month, which is very affordable.

That's very affordable. It's about a third under the national average there. Found a one-bedroom, one-bath, 836 square feet. It looks pretty shitty from the outside. I'm not going to lie. Yeah, because it's tiny. Yeah, and it also lie. Yeah. Curb appeal. It's tiny. Yeah, and it also looks run down. Curb appeal, not great.

But it looks like they've put their energy into keeping the inside clean because the inside's better. You know, you're not going to have all up-to-date appliances and shit like that. But it's clean and put together. Not terrible. $115,000. But that's small. 800 square feet? feet yeah that's a one-bedroom apartment

that's yeah just detached from other places that's all that is then here there's a six-bedroom four-bath 5738 square foot oh my god oh yeah it's an old tutor style house it's got yeah like the intricately carved wood in like the you know doorways and all that sort of thing very old school really nice you're gonna have to live with i'm sure the ghosts of someone's grandmother there's definitely there's definitely gonna be some some supernatural activity going on here but it's worth it i think here as here. It really is. $750,000 for that, though, for almost 6,000 square feet. That's incredible. That's a good price, especially for a house with this kind of...

It's overused, but it's got character of a house. You know what I mean? It's cool as shit. Then we have here a six-bedroom, five-bath, 6,019 square foot, that is. You found 11, 000 square feet of of wisconsin it's uh it's old and sweet and ornate and there's a dope ass staircase and it's got cool shit it's yeah it's like that italianate italianate they call it it's like that fuck yeah cool as shit. Very cool.

It's definitely, it's a place where you take prom pictures. You know what I mean? Like in front of, it's a cool looking place here. Very neat. $1.3 million for that. Fantastic. Or $1,299,000. How many, is there acreage with it?

No acreage with it. It's not that big of a land. You're paying for the house here. Yeah, it's in the town. Things to do. Here we go. Now we're going to have some fun. Red Bud Days, number one.

Red Bud Days, which is I think exactly what they called it in Funny Farm. I think it was Red Bud Days. I think so, yeah. And that's where he put the hook in the guy's neck. Yeah, the fishing tournament. You're not knocking him out. You're just beating the piss out of him. There's that.

The calmness with which he said that was fantastic. That's so funny. And then it comes out. It fell out. And then they attack him. Look at that. It fell out. And he swims to shore.

I don't sleep. I don't sleep. I don't work. I don't work. I don't sleep. If you come for me i'll be waiting so um they describe it as quote columbus's citywide garage sale that sounds terrible i don't know all of everyone bring your shit to the center of town make a pile and uh whatever doesn't get bought we soak it in gasoline and set it in place and fucking sweep it off and we're done.

Barbecue a pig on it. We don't give a shit. It's done. So, yeah, it happened during Red Bud Week. Red Bud Week, this is part of. It's an annual tradition in Columbus and we welcome you to participate in it as well. Well, Jimmy, we welcome you to take your shit there.

Whether you're looking for garage sale shopping or looking to host your own garage sale, enjoy Columbus's citywide garage sale. That's a lot. They just said garage sale three times in a sentence. That's like a third of that sentence was garage sale words. That's all that was. I want you to know that we have extra shit. We may have more info coming soon for participation so check back on this page soon

who fucking wrote this who is the idiot who wrote that sentence one more time we may have more info coming soon for participation so please check back on this page soon it sounds like a six-year-old wrote it it sounds like a six-year-old dictated it and someone else what did you say oh you're more soon and yeah daddy likes to park in the garage but mommy parks in the driveway excellent great should you want me to add that no okay it felt like somebody tweeted that and like was overthinking the tweet yeah that's a tweet i would delete they edited it a couple times and then they forgot to put the second soon and take that out soon in too many times that's too many soons god damn it damn it um then there is the red bud prince and princess contest oh god the columbus chamber of commerce

sponsors the annual red bud prince and princess contest which is one of the highlights of the red bud celebration well you can't have a town without a prince and princess. You're telling me that's the best you got? We need a prince and princess of cheese curd. That's what we do here. The best we've got is judging your children. I hope it's not for children,

but I'm sure it is. And it is. Here we go. The contest is an opportunity for the young people in the community to learn about public speaking and presentation. And also how to present themselves as a piece of ass. That's also something we're going to teach the kids.

You know what I mean? They need to know that. The event is open to boys and girls enrolled in kindergarten and first grade in the Columbus County School. That makes it almost less. I don't know if it makes it more creepy or less creepy. More. I feel like it's yeah but then again if they were like 15 i feel like all these guys are going 15 year olds don't look like they used to while they're judging them you know what i mean so

at least a five-year-old you can't mistake for anything but a kid that only if someone's looking at them you can see you can see somebody just like i'm gonna fuck me that kid and then you tackle him and tase him and throw him in the river but i don't know if it's better or worse is what i'm saying only so what you're saying is that few uh that are around the five year olds want to fuck them but everyone that's around the 15 year olds no i feel like there's a i feel like it's grossly more weirdly like like two guys who are gross, like we wouldn't say this to each other, but we know guys who would turn to each other and go 15 or whatever, but that's some tits on that one. And you fucking know it. And you know that person would be in spades in that place. There'd be tons of that guy.

They'd be all over the place. You know that shit. I'm now finding it hard to like comment any like a picture of somebody says throwback third whatever i find it hard to comment on those because i don't know how old they are in those pictures yeah no shit i can't be like oh you were cute or whatever or look at you or what because i'm afraid that they're gonna be like i was 14 what why did you put that on online then or you think they're going to be like, I was 14. What? Why did you put that on online then? Or you think they're kidding. You're like, oh, look how cute you are.

And like, I was 27. Fuck you. Like, call me cute. I'm an adult. So then there is. What grade were you in? What grade were you in there? Postgraduate in college.

I was going for my master's. Paying taxes. You know. And finally, the Red Bud Day celebration. And yeah, this is where we, they have the actual Red day celebration and uh yeah this is where we they have the actual red bud prince and princess contest the badger antique motor club classic car show the uh the cornhole tournament starting at high noon because that's a shootout of course you gotta have that there's a beer garden a barbecue cook-off which okay i'm in for that and then live music by

bad habit i don't know who that is but they have them scheduled for a three-hour set from one to four what they better be really good because that is a long fucking time to listen to a some bar band suck bad habit bad habit your bad habit is you keep playing these terrible small town festivals and you need to stop. So crime rate in this town, what we're interested in, of course, the crime rate, property crime is about 20% under the national average. So a little low. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime here is about half of the national average. So it's kind of a small, safe little town in between two cities that, you know, little suburban type deal.

And it's nice. So that said, let's talk about a horrible murder. This is a horrible murder. Let's just say that we have to go back to 1980 here to start out with. And this is going to span some time. This is this because it is, wow, is this a crazy story. So we have to go back to March 11th, 1980. We'll set the table here. We'll go back. We'll go forth.

And we'll come back to March 11th, 1980. First, let's talk about Lane McIntyre. Let's. Oh, Laney boy. Lane McIntyre is 23 years old. Okay. Lane. He.

Wow. This is a rough. It's got it rough. I think a little bit here. He's got a young family, as we'll talk about. He works the overnight shift at the Montessi Paper Corp plant. And he's got kids and a wife. We'll talk about you want to see the Montessi Paper Corp plant.

Let's see this this is in its current iteration where it's been you know it's not as i'm sure depressing as it was when it was that but here roll over a little bit here and i'll show it to you will you what the fuck is look at that it's on the water so it looks like they just dump whatever waste they have into that lake i'm not sure what's going on there. That river is papier-mâché. Yeah, you can't even. It's only like six inches deep because it's just papier-mâché bottom. I didn't realize that paper mills look like power plants.

Yeah, it's not pretty. It looks. No. It's got rust dripping off everything. That looks like shit. And to work overnight there, to see that in the morning sun as you leave tired, that has got to be a... The sun peaks over that. Oh, God, my eyes.

Jesus Christ. Blinded. I've been making paper all night. So by this time, he is married right now to a woman here named Marilyn McIntyre. Her maiden name is R-A-H-N'm sorry, R.A.H.N. I guess that's Ron Rain. Ron. Ron sounds right. That's what I would say, too. They have an apartment at 305 South Ludington Street in Columbus. Ludington. Ludington. And they now Marilyn.

She's 18. She's younger than Lane here. She has a couple of sisters, including an identical twin sister even. So she's one of an identical twin pair, which is very strange always. I always find that to be just so odd. Not for me, for them to be like, to never have any, to always have someone that looks just like you has got to feel weird, right? Yeah. Yeah. have someone that looks just like you's got to feel weird right yeah yeah yeah yeah somebody who doesn't have a twin brother yet yet everyone seems to look like me it's weird it's weird

imagine if someone actually looked exactly like you can't imagine oh i saw you no you didn't it wasn't me saw my brother just stop i'd have to live on the other side of the country i shouted your name 14 times yeah i heard you i just ignored you because i knew you weren't that there is that too yeah you have that excuse all the time oh i was my brother yeah you have the i was my brother excuse which is pretty good even better you have the excuse of somebody walking up to you that you do know you don't want to talk to them and just pretend you're your brother problem Problem is, twins in a small town, they probably know the same people. That's the problem.

They probably know all the same people. Shit, yeah. Whichever one you think I am, I still know you. Damn it. I have to talk to you. So now, he met Marilyn when she was 16. Okay? So that is when he's 21 and she's 16,

which, as you know, that age gap is not small-town murder-approved behavior we don't condone that but for some reason there was a period of time apparently 1980 is included in this period of time or 1978 where if you're in a small town and the guy was a nice guy who didn't seem like a pervert and And I'm doing that in quotation marks. Their parents would let you go out with them even though you're a sophomore. Certainly some perversion. Yeah, even though you're a sophomore and they work at the paper mill. You know what I'm saying?

That's filed three years worth of taxes. Very different life we're talking about. He's making sure he's got his workers comp paperwork all done and she's like i have a science test tomorrow he talked to the utility company this month and you oh yeah talk to a teacher he's worried about his long distance bill at this stage in his life so but there's somebody with a stop sign walked you across the road no shit but there is a reason for this though because she does not she hasn't come from your typical background of this kind of suburban town where you know her parents were everything's fine you go to her house and you meet her mom and dad

and all that kind of shit or even like her parents are divorced but she lives with her mom none of that even happened according to her sister carolyn who is her twin, she says, our mother was killed in a car accident in 1966. Shit. Damn. So when Marilyn's only five years old, her mother's killed in a car accident, which is absolutely horrible. So the twins, Carolyn and Marilyn, they named their kids Carolyn.

Oh, they did. That's tough. That's tough. It's bad enough. Here we go. People with twins. It's bad enough that they look alike. You don't have to dress them alike or name them rhyming names, please.

Yeah. We don't have to do that. Or alliteration. They don't have to be Kyle and Kevin. They don't have to be. Just give them identities that are separate. They'll be alike. Don't worry.

They won't be able to help it. They have the same same dna yeah i went to school with a pleasure and treasure how horrible is that yeah that's yeah i had a that's not good i had a dave and doug dave and doug those are the guys i knew god damn it i hate it i'm trying to think of what the hell oh and megan and mandy was another pair i know no yep friend of mine's little sister's megan mandy the was mand Mandy the fun one? I don't know because they were much younger. You know, Megan's pretty fun too usually. They were much younger, so that's just creepy to think about.

You didn't want to find out. The last time I saw them, they were like 11. That's really creepy to think about. Yeah, I just see these little girls. Pleasure and Treasure were older than me, and they were both quite a party. If you name your twin girls Pleasure and Treasure, you're kind of signing them up for a career in porn, are you not? Pleasure and Treasure, the threesome twins, that's a fucking, they could have part one through 750. That's it.

Their own, think about OnlyFans. Pleasure and Treasure, the threesome twins. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched.

He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar.

Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, andbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great.

A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. That's incest, unless they're just like not touching each other. But there's also the, you're setting, they don't even have to have stage names.

You know what I mean? They're already set. Yeah. People are just going to assume it. It's not good. They're just going to start jerking off on them you got to be careful hey watch out guys will start taking their cocks out when they find out your name they can't men can't control their penises remember so be careful that's what you have to tell them if you name them that so um anyway the them and their older siblings as well brenda and dean are their older siblings were

had to move in with their father then because their parents were divorced their father also has a a wife who turns out to be the evil stepmother kind of the the storybook evil stepmother abusive and everything else carolyn said quote it was physically abusive mentally verbally abusive and it was mainly on marilyn and i at the age and at the age of 13 we finally moved into foster care jesus yeah so now you're it's making a little more sense right you've got your parents and you're in foster care yeah that's bad you got at least one of them and you're in foster care so at 16 she was just looking for to not live in foster care and to have a stable home and to just have a normal life. That's all she's looking for.

And then she meets Lane, who's 21 years old, super stable, real kind of calm, kind of steady hand kind of a guy. Works at the paper mill. Hell yeah. Works over at the paper mill. People always going right on paper. mean you betcha there's always that so he's he's looking really good to her and he's a nice guy also here's the other thing let computers take off i dare you we'll just take the lines off it'll be fine you're gonna have to print something for a while and then eventually none of y'all use printers anymore and uh but shit i'll be retired by then so fuck

it never mind let the pdf come out i don't give a fuck y'all do what you need to i don't even care i don't microsoft word can suck my balls i don't give a shit doesn't care he's singing songs about it so he's um this is but again 21 and 16 and thing, too, that makes it weird is that at 16, 21-year-olds look amazing because they're cool. They're adults. You know what I'm saying? You see that a lot, that, you know, high school-age girls like college-age boys because they're more mature. They're more adult. This guy gets a paycheck.

He's got a, you know, he's got a pension plan and he's you know a retirement and you can even strike that from girls because freshman year the other way too yeah it works the other way it works the other way her truck she was smoking well we just think they fuck better though that's why that's probably true that's the different like she's looking at him like oh okay like for a future we're like i bet she knows how to suck a dick like nobody's business look at her 21 been in college for three years oh man i bet it's good like that's all the things i jerk off to yep that's what a teenage boy thinks like you think that's gross but because there's women listening going no yes that's how we can't help it. It's gross. Probably right. It's stunning that we can. Yeah, that's what it is.

But it happens that way. So anyway, you can you can see what's going on here. She's looking for a life raft. It just is reaching up for anything she can grab. She said the sister said, quote, or he said, I'm sorry, I was just enamored with Marilyn right away, is what Lane said. She was so pretty. I was just like, just control yourself. Just don't rape this kid.

Is that what you had to say to yourself? What a weird thing to have to say. Keep it in your pants, Lane. I think he, yeah, maybe he meant you don't be the aggressor because she's 16. If she pursues you, it's one thing. But either way. Don't scare her off. Right.

But, yeah, she's been bouncing from foster home to foster's one thing but either way scare her off right um but yeah she's been bouncing from foster home to foster home she's been in several of them um he said she was just so sweet though she still had this attitude like she cared about other people she wasn't bitter she wasn't like angry at the world he said he were he remembered one halloween she's you know she's a teenager still she's 16 she She didn't want to go to a party or do teeny Halloween shit. They went around together and collected donations for UNICEF. What? For UNICEF.

And even though he was very tired because he had worked, she wouldn't let him stop because they had some more houses and they could get some more money to do some good for charity. She's amazing. She's a real nice girl here um he said also and everybody said basically that the foster the foster home she was living in at the time was terrible the foster father was abusive and scary and so this was kind of everybody saw this as like a rescue this was like he was rescuing her from this situation is how all of her friends looked at it how she looked at it her sister everybody it wasn't thought of as weird at all uh carolyn said right about marilyn toward lane quote it was love at first sight it just

she loved him too he said i wanted to take care of her you you know, be there for her. That's nice. And Carolyn approved of the relationship, the twin. But the older sister, Brenda, was a little wary of the whole thing. She said, quote, I didn't think he was good enough for Marilyn. She had a rough life growing up. Was this guy going to make it any easier? No. He wasn't like some, you know, he wasn't a college boy or you know some rich kid or something he was a he's a guy who works at the paper factory and you know tries to make ends

blue collar's not a bad life no it's not but she's saying like oh she's not good enough for my little sister right i'm just saying she needs brendan needs to calm the fuck down you're in rural wisconsin what the fuck are you looking for you know that's a great point yeah if you want you want to go somewhere not that there's nobody here that's right i don't know white collar or whatever but i mean you're probably a few more blue collar people in a small town in wisconsin and especially if you're blue collar yeah give him some time maybe he'll run that factory one day that's the other thing we don't know that we have no idea here that's uh we don't know yeah he could be today's fucking never mind all right we'll do it all right so he um she says that that uh you know

wasn't good enough brenda though said that they ended up getting married anyway and brenda was on board with it because they really seemed to be in love so why not they got married january 19th 1979 marilyn is 17 years old at this time yep and he is 22 and uh lane says it was a small party maybe only a dozen people but it was one of the happiest days of my life not bad he loved it um soon um the december of this year. They got married in January, and by December, a son is born. So they got cracking right away. She wasn't even pregnant when they got married. That's, you know, a teenage wedding

where one of them isn't pregnant is, I assume, rare. That's beautiful. By the late 70s, right? So anyway, they did that. He said, that coming summer was going to be the best summer of our lives being husband and wife with our brand new baby jimmy knows there's something bad coming if that's yeah we don't we don't tell stories of the best summer of anybody's life generally that's not

usually what our stories result in it's usually i think we've done 300 episodes of none of those none of those no it's usually that was the worst period of my entire life oh my god it felt like my guts were being ripped from my body on a regular daily basis so march 10th 1980 let's go to here let's cut to that right three month old christopher that's the son so they have christopher they're living in this apartment i gave you the address there and on this night starts out like any other night uh lane's got a work night shift tonight so yeah you know um he's he works 11 to 7 i believe this is shift all damn day he's probably um he said they did laundry and then he left for work that was that he's asked later on do you remember remember what marilyn said to you when you left He's probably. He said they did laundry and then he left for work.

That was that. He's asked later on, do you remember what Marilyn said to you when you left? And he said, she said, I love you. Do you love me? And I said, of course I do. Obviously. And he went to work. I'm going to go make some paper now. Let's do this shit.

We go make some paper to make our paper. Let's do it. I'm making that paper, baby. So 7.10 a do it. I'm going to make, I'm making that paper, baby. So 7, 10 AM. Okay. He, uh, he leaves the plant at 7 0 1 AM and he's home by 7 10. So he's lives nine minutes from the plant. That's pretty cool right there.

Um, he heads home, he arrives at his home at 7 10 AM and he says, quote quote when i approached the front door the dog was outside on a chain barking i thought well that's unusual i stepped inside the door and stopped there for a while not believing what my eyes were seeing i saw my wife laying on the floor dead and it was like i was in a tunnel oh my god that's what he says here he said he walked in he left they said i love you i love you he went to work just did his thing came home like normal listen to the morning zoo show on the radio or whatever for nine minutes nine minutes pops in the door dead wife oh my god? He's in a tunnel. So, it's on the living room floor.

That's where she is. He says, a body on the floor with a knife sticking in the side of her chest. Oh, God damn it. Jesus Christ. And he also adds to that, quote, and a mutilated head. Oh, nobody wants to walk in on that. That's horrible. A body on the floor with a knife sticking in the side of her chest and a mutilated head mutilated is not a word yeah i don't i don't

even want to see what that means that means something horrible i'll explain the wounds to you but it's okay not good so um he says later on speculation was she might have answered the door and let someone in that's what that's what it is here that's what they're thinking but we don't know because they have a lot of thoughts here so he then after being in a tunnel for a moment realizes hey i have a three-month-old son yeah so he says that he ran into the bedroom to check his son's crib and his son is unharmed in the crib. Christopher is sleeping soundly, completely fine, unharmed in the crib. So he's like, OK, well, that's good. Now, there's an upstairs neighbor here. And this is a strange thing.

OK, there's an upstairs neighbor who lives above them who she said she learned about the death from Lane because lane came to the door before he calls anybody he checks on his son and then he runs over to the to the neighbors upstairs and doing lane this is so weird he says quote it was about five this is the neighbor saying this it was about five ten after seven somebody pounded on the door our our door downstairs. It was Lane, and he said, did you hear anything last night? I just found my wife murdered. Dog, stop investigating. Okay, yeah. Okay, now I'm just going to say this.

I'm not casting blame, obviously. I'm just saying, like, that's a weird thing to say. I just found my wife murdered is not. It would be more normal to say i just found my wife dead normally when someone makes a narrative of any kind whether any sort of narrative like this of like trying to explain what had happened when they tell someone is usually a sign of some sort of but not in everybody that's the thing not always yeah not always because people's brains are all fucked up so they he might have just who knows what he's thinking at this point so but his wife's

dead and he knows he didn't do it so he's probably just casting out the that's what he's saying yeah i mean that's what he's saying or people say that when they know they did do it because that's how they know this the person is murdered you know i'm not saying he did it i'm just saying that that's that's the theory on it and uh that's why that's thought of as deceptive. But it's not always deceptive like anything is. Nothing's 100 percent or even fucking 80. So at that point, she said by the time the neighbor said by the time the chief of police knocked on the door, she did remember that she had heard something unusual in the middle of the night. that she had heard something unusual in the middle of the night. She said about a quarter after three in the morning, I woke up and the dog was just barking up a storm. And that Marilyn and Lane's dog was barking at around three o'clock in the morning.

And they said that her husband said, and it was like he was pulling on something. I don't know, like when a dog plays tug-of-war with a rope. I don't know if that's what it is. Like growling with his mouth closed? Yeah, I guess so. They said, is that unusual? And the neighbor said, well, I never heard him bark like that before.

Why say that many words? Just say yes. Yeah, unusual. So, I mean, well, I guess it's saying maybe not, but I never heard it, I guess. You could also say, beats the shit out of me, it's saying maybe not, but I never heard it, I guess. God, yeah. You could also say, beats the shit out of me, it's not my dog. For me to hear, yes. Yeah, there you go.

So, Lane, he's talked to the neighbor. He checked on his son. He's talked to the neighbor. Then he calls his parents after that. He calls his- No police yet. He calls his parents and asks them to call the police okay okay um which is i don't know how to explain that um you could have yeah he's called his mom

you just called him yourself call the police so the police arrive okay um like we said christopher unharmed thankfully that, that's great. Police arrive immediately. Obviously, it's a crime scene, so they're checking everything. No evidence of any forced entry into the house whatsoever. That's why they think she had to have maybe opened the door because definitely no forced entry. There's a police officer named Pete Gasser who was there. He was one of the first to respond.

And he said, quote, it was gruesome jesus christ gruesome mutilated these are some heavy words being thrown around here yeah gruesome and mutilated um he said that uh quote um yeah he was just said it was horrible and uh now they talked to wayne mcintyre's shift supervisor at the paper plant immediately. And they say now the supervisor says, as far as I know, he never left the building during his shift. But he also works on his own a lot. And this kind of has a lot of freedom to move around and do whatever he wants. So I don't keep track of him. Yeah, there's no cameras at the paper mill in 1980.

And nobody keeps track of the guy. And it's 11 to 7. I sometimes not off. That's going to be the skeleton crew of one guy working in each department or something like that. That's not the whole assembly line going at once in the middle of the night. So there you go. So that's, I don't really know, but according to the, no one saw him leave or anything like that. So one one of the police officers here said quote right now we believe her death is a homicide no shit knife sticking out of her chest with her skull crushed

in that sounds like um that's that'd be the weirdest suicide i ever saw in your living room on the floor it seems unnatural it's an accident everybody like she was chopping something she tripped and all hell broke loose that's ridiculous natural causes natural causes obviously and then no those things are inconsequential don't worry about those that's crazy so um i would say it's a homicide the autopsy determines that oh jesus this is terrible that she has uh marilyn has numerous and severe wounds to her head and body from a beating and those injuries along with the multiple knife wounds, were responsible for her death, is what they say. She was stabbed, strangled and bludgeoned to death and sexually assaulted as well.

Oh, no. Yeah, everything. I mean, it's horrible. This is as bad as many ways as you could hurt somebody. This person, she's been hurt here. The coroner said, quote, it was brutal, real brutal, gruesome, mutilated, brutal. These are all we have. Coroners say brutal coroner see a lot.

If they say brutal, it's brutal. You know, they said her body had marks of strangulation. Evidence of this is from the report quote evidence of traumatic sexual contact yikes uh that's the most i can get out of it so you can extrapolate whatever you want out of that but it's that's just horrible lacerations bad bruises a kitchen knife a kitchen knife buried in her chest and we'll talk about her skull in a moment uh the and the coroner also said she'd been hit repeatedly hard many blows to the head strangled and stabbed he said that she had been stabbed once in the chest with a paring knife and they said the stabbing by itself would probably not

have been fatal but i guess mixed with the other shit he said that there's no way of telling if she was stabbed before or after the bludgeoning adding that the various elements of the attack occurred almost simultaneously wow yeah now the cause of the the time of death here oh we'll do this first suffered multiple blunt force injuries to her head resulting in lacerations and skull fractures that left pieces of bone in her hair. Wow. Not just a skull fracture inside.

Like broke the skull open with the hair, so a piece of it came out. Man. And they found it in her hair, bruising on her face, and one of her ears was split even. Shit. This was a savage attack. This is like, I don't even know,

a fucking something from another dimension attacked her. This is crazy. Destroying her. It's nuts. Now, they place the time of death, and this is based on, the time of death, by the way, is a crapshoot still to this day.

Nowadays, they know more about how little they know about time of death. It's so many factors factor in, like temperature and everything. It's crazy how many factors that they try to find. So at best, it's a guess. And this guess is based on the neighbor hearing the dog barking. So they go, well, we think it's around 3. And the neighbor heard the dog barking around 3 also.

So if we put those two things together, we're going to call it somewhere around 3 in the neighborhood, the dog barking around 3 also, so if we put those two things together, we're going to call it somewhere around 3, 3.30 a.m. That's the time of death, which is, again, not reliable by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, the dog might have had to shit, and who knows, you know what I mean? It's fascinating what bodies do after death. It is obviously disgusting, but seeing a dead body will change everything inside you.

What you thought you knew about death. Yep. Well, and the other thing, too, is I guess people who don't deal with a lot of death investigations, a lot of times, like in a small town, they will fuck up the they'll mix up the rigors too because someone there's rigor and then their second rigor there's two rigors so you'll be your rigor mortis will set in then you'll go kind of limp again then there'll be a second rigor is how it works so second rigor can oftentimes make a body sit up yeah and also i don't know about sit up but i mean you're all contracted and condensed but those times a lot of times they will find a body in rigor and if they have less experience they won't know which one it is and that'll fuck up

the time of death and then also there's lividity and then it would if it was hotter in the room than they thought and yeah you never know it's so and then you have humidity and then you have the dry it's so many things can contribute to a body being uh better preserved or worse the baby's asleep so you got to figure it was after the baby went to sleep based on that um you know i would assume anyway unless somebody killed her put the baby to bed and then went about their business i don't know or something like that that's the only way otherwise it could work so either way the uh the coroner said she was hit a whole bunch of times this was a homicide period exclamation point it's an extra

bit of uh punctuation that you don't need right there but still so to that sentence deep bruising in her brain uh deep bruising they said that the bruising was much more than is typically seen in a physical assault the guy said quote it was more like what you see in a car wreck in just pure extent like if raining blows with force like if she shot through the wind windshield into a telephone pole that would be the type of wound she would have going 60 miles an hour so it's ridiculous they say she was wearing a nightgown at the time uh the nightgown was 54 inches in length opaque and blue made of crushed velour or fleece material with three-quarter length sleeves and it was sold by jc penny so it sounds so comfy it sounds very

comfy yeah so it sounds like she was settling into bed is why i was talking about that so again this puts for a either she's settling in or she's already in bed. She's not. You shouldn't just go to the store. You know what I mean? She's not washing the car. No, she's not doing any shit like that. She's definitely in for the night.

So one of the detectives who was first on the scene here with the state lab, state crime lab investigators said that the didn't appear to be a robbery for a motive. There's nothing missing. There is no evidence of forced entry into the house. Right. So this is very odd. They have no suspects, nor have they located the instrument used in the clubbing either. They don't know what she was beat over the head with. Wow.

At the time, they just said there's a shitload of things around the house that could possibly be used for that. I mean, it's something big and heavy. There's a bunch of things. Who knows? You'd think that thing would be covered with fucking blood. Well, yeah, they're saying who knows. Maybe it's gotten cleaned up because we'll talk about that for a minute, too. There's soap in a different spot than it would be.

So it's very confusing. They don't know what's going on here, but they figure out that the paring knife is from the kitchen. So that is from the actual house. So right away, that is the murder weapon or one of the murder weapons wasn't brought in by a by the murderer. So that's a that's a piece of how a murderer operates. That's a piece of M.O. and that's a piece of all that, whether they bring it or not. So they said they have no no suspects they're looking for them now 3 30 a.m is the the big thing about the guesses like i was talking about that's based

on the dog that's based on some other kind of shit um the other thing is if you were working 11 to 7 the way the cops are looking at it what time would your lunch break be around around 3 a.m around 3 a.m so that's what they got to look into also because they haven't cleared lane yet either because they have to his boss said he's there but they're still you know well boys nine minutes away yeah they don't know anybody who has a motive and we'll talk about this as well the next day they find out that days earlier within the last week they had a pretty hefty life insurance policy put on maryland brand new brand new um which is weird for an 18 year old to put a life insurance but i guess for the child it makes sense if you have kids you need to have a life insurance policy for that but it's the timing of it's suspicious at

best we'll put it that way yeah so the cops are like well that's interesting that's a new factor we didn't think about so when they arrived they they found Lane cradling Christopher in his arms. I'm sitting there. They noticed that there's no sign of forced entry, like I said. So it's either somebody that, you know, we've got to be somebody she willingly let into the house, probably, unless the door was left unlocked and they talked to Lane about that, too. about that too um one of the uh investigators here said when you see this level of violence typically it's a crime committed by somebody that knows the victim and has anger toward them for some reason yeah so this is this is personal you don't bash yeah you don't bash someone's head into this extent unless you fucking mean it you can't muster that kind of rage otherwise you just can't

you i could see if you hit somebody till they die but then you'd be like all right god damn it let me go figure out what i was doing over here if that's not your main motive or your main continue struggling and stabbing that's too much and let's not forget raping as well obviously yeah so vicious brutal raping yeah probably while you're bashing them i would assume in the head which is fucking horrible so they said lane had an alibi but it's not an airtight alibi there's he's nine minutes away um this wouldn't take that long to do he's nine minutes away he gets a break and he has kind of free reign to walk around at work it's not like he's you know in a secure zone or something like that so his

time card showed that he was at the paper plant that night. But like they said, they found out he works alone. He's allowed to take breaks kind of at will. And then the next day they find out about the life insurance policy that was taken out less than a week before this happened. And it's not starting. It's not looking good for Lane at this point here. But there's no other evidence linking him. There's nothing linking him to it directly. It's just circumstantial.

He can't they can't 100 100 rule him out at this point and so that's a that's really irritating to know whether they have a psychopath on the loose or some asshole's husband who's a jackass you know they don't know so uh the police department said the next day we've talked to a lot of people but none that you would call suspects it It's a bad sign. This scares the shit out of everybody in town, by the way. I mean, young mother with a baby in her home in the middle of the night, allegedly, or whatever. Somebody comes in, bashes her skull in, rapes and stabs her.

This is the nightmare of everybody. This is horrible. People are definitely locking their doors. Yeah, you're never more vulnerable than you are in your fucking own home in your nightgown with your child asleep. Yeah. By yourself, especially.

Right. You're worried about protecting your baby. That's scary shit. So they said they've made, you know, they keep making periodic. The state keeps checking in periodically. Their investigative team to make sure they're not fucking it up here locally, which is good. Yeah. team to make sure they're not fucking it up here locally which is good yeah the police chief lee erdman he said that while the bludgeoning instrument has not been identified for certain

they see said quote several items in the mcintyre home are being viewed as possible weapons and then the paring knife that was found at the scene belonged in the kitchen the crime scene they collected fingerprint evidence and found blood stains that did not belong to maryland oh as well as hair from an unknown source as well now the problem with the hair thing is an unknown source is fine but hair is i mean that could be from one of their friends and if they find lane's hair there he lives there so it doesn't yeah lane's blood and hair or semen or anything anywhere in the house it's all there it's all there yeah yeah anywhere men out there everywhere in your house is covered in your dna it just absolutely yeah there's jizz you've somehow tracked somewhere there's you've tracked blood somewhere that you cut your finger that time in

the kitchen it's a disaster closet to grab a towel after. It's there. It's there. So they have all of this. And they also found a cigarette butt on the scene in the apartment that doesn't belong to Lane or to Marilyn as well. That's another thing they found. That's a good clue. So that's a decent clue as well. Now, nowadays, you could pull some DNA off of that bad boy. In 1980, DNA, well, it wasn't that it didn't exist, but we didn't know how to figure it out yet. At that point, we're just looking for the same brand.

Yeah, we're looking. Who smokes camels? That's all we have. That's allowed. He smokes camels? There's a camel there? Done. So now let's go over the suspect list, okay?

At this point, it's a two-person list that's it it's two people they're thinking about and that's only because they got the second one from the first one so it's it's all they have okay this isn't based on investigation on their own this is based on what they're told by lane and then asking lane who could she be angry with. Pretty much. That's what it is. So it's a lot of things here. Now, another thing, too, doesn't happen right away, but Lane marries pretty shortly after this as well. He remarries.

So that doesn't make him look great either because this is going to drag on for a little bit. And him getting remarried pretty quick is, it's not Carolynolyn you look just like her i love you that would be that if i had a i couldn't do if i had a wife that i loved and someone murdered her i would never want to see her identical twin sister never i'd be like never come in my sight line it's just it's horrifying it would be like seeing a ghost it would make me cry i'd fucking break it every time i saw her i would cry the good news for the baby is we could just tell that baby forever that this is his mom even a dns dna test to prove it

yeah that's your mom we'll take a test then you motherfucker that's right that's your mom did you see that story there are two twins that met each other. So two men that are twins, two women that are twins, they married each other. The brother and sister married each other. They both have children. The babies have the exact same DNA. It's weird, isn't it? That's fucking creepy.

It's the same thing. Yeah. So now there's incest, right? Now there's four of them walking around with the same DNA. And they all live in the same house. No. right now there's four of them walking around with the same and they all live in the same house no i i'd keep track of those people like crazy because i'm like you're not you're not gonna go out and do bad things and leave my dna everywhere i swear to god that is dangerous we'd live in a house like it was that big brother reality show i want to cameras on everyone at all times i don't know what you're doing keep track of of your phone and your messages. So gross. Oh, that's bad stuff.

Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers

at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit,

but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

So, yeah, there's that. There's the insurance policy. So that's not good. And so they show Lane photos. They go, OK, here's your house because they had a picture of the living room before, you know, everything happened a couple of days before that. And then they have a picture of it when he got home from work. And they go, does anything look different in here to you? Like, can you see anything different? Because it's your house.

You would know little things where it would be. And he noticed a few things. Number one, his lunchbox is on the living room floor where he dropped it after seeing his wife's body, which, duh. Okay, we get that. And a bar of soap is in a sink instead of in the soap dish where it would normally be. That's some eagle eyes seeing that in a picture, by the way. That soap is misplaced. So misplaced soap is a thing, though.

And if you murdered someone and you needed to wash up, maybe you wouldn't place the soap back in the soap dish all nicely. Yeah, if it's hasty, yeah. That's one of the things you would think of. Now, he said that he's the one who told them that knife is from our kitchen. I know that knife. It's from there. They said, was the apartment door locked when you returned home from work? This is very important, Lane.

And he said, I can only speculate that it was. They said, what the fuck does that mean, bro? That's a bad answer. And he said, that's what I mean. All of these things are not helping him. The insurance, his answers are all weird. None of this is helping this guy very much in his own way. So he said, I can only speculate that it was.

And he said that he used the key in the doorknob, assuming that the door was locked. So if it wasn't locked, it wouldn't matter because he was going to turn it with the key anyway so okay that makes sense honestly um a lot of apartment doors if it's unlocked though it'll just kind of open with the key like it'll turn also you know what i'm saying rather than go but it might not be this door so we don't know so another door to the apartment which was located in their bedroom had a bolt lock on it that was locked and it was blocked by a piece of furniture that was not like to keep people out. It was a piece of furniture in front of the door that you'd have to move. That wasn't the point of entry. Basically, it would have had to have been a lot of things moved aside for that to get in there.

there so he said that now and then um now and then he would tell marilyn to chain the front door or now and then now and then she would chain the front door and lock it which would then he would get home open the door and hit the chain and go god damn it he'd have to knock and she'd have to get out of bed and come unlock the door so he said that he instructed her to lock it but stop chaining the goddamn door because i can't get in and he said quote i regret that decision now yeah so i bet so um anyway they were they're running down his alibi they're trying to figure out what he did they said listen do you know anyone else anyone else on earth that would have it in for your sweet three-month-old child mother 18 she's only 18 she hasn't enough time to piss in yeah how much time has she had to piss anybody off yet like it's not

like she's had a feud with someone over like a you know business losses for the last 20 years or you know she was running for office or something like she's 18 years old with a young baby who the fuck could she possibly be that kind of enemy with? And he said, the only thing I can think of, the only guy who could possibly, possibly have done this would be one of my best friends. What? Why would you be best friends with someone who is the first person that comes to your mind when your wife is raped and bludgeoned and stabbed to death? That's an excellent question. Why is that guy that's a question why is he in your life anyone who i'm concerned that may whoever you meet think about if my significant other was raped and brutally murdered and all this shit would i consider them a suspect immediately if the answer is yes don't be friends with that person especially

if they're the first and only that's's the only one I can think of. And he said, that's one of my best friends, Curtis Forbes, like the magazine. He said, Forbes. They said, well, why would Kurt Forbes kill your wife? And he said, I believe that Kurt Forbes had a crush on Marilyn, is what he says. And his girlfriend just left him and he was on out on the prowl that night wow so he's saying he thinks that he was looking for some strange out there and couldn't come across it so he decided to go over and rape and kill my wife instead

which is a that's a jump that's a hell of a leap and if it if a friend that you have that's not a leap holy shit man what are you doing yeah that seems like a reasonable analysis that's that's a really bad friend there so anyway they check into him his work shift ran from 11 p.m on march 10th to 7 a.m march 11th yeah that's how it went um he says that i stood in the doorway because they said why'd you call your mother and not the police was the first question they said, why did you call your mother and not the police? Was the first question they asked him. Why did you call your mom?

Your mom's not the police or the medical people, or why would you call them? Why would you call her? And he said, quote, I stood in the doorway trying to accept what I was seeing. I touched Marilyn's wrist. And they said, okay, why did you call your mom, though, to tell her that?

That seems odd. And his quote is, OK, why did you call your mom, though, to tell her that? That seems odd. And his quote is, quote, I didn't know what the police number was. I was not in a state of mind to look up a number. I asked mom to call the police for me. It's always 911, right? Even. Well, there are there were towns that because I remember the Dutchess County in New York didn't have 911 until like 1994 or some shit. What?

It was crazy. There was some weird glitch where they were fighting about it. The local fucking, it was the craziest thing. So we didn't have 911 forever. But you know how you can get the number to the police station without looking it up? You go, zero. You just call the operator back.

Operator, connect me to the police, please. My wife's on the floor with a fucking knife sticking out of her chest oh right away there you go you got the cops but i get it i i've never walked in on my my beloved in that state so i don't know and with a kid in my arms and not knowing what to do i don't know what you would do i really don't who knows i have i have recurring nightmares where i i in the panic I am unable to function correctly. Yeah, everybody does. And in the moments, in those moments where I've needed, I've panicked and not been able to do whatever it was I needed to do.

There you go. Well, maybe Lane does the same thing. Maybe he's telling the truth. But that's still questionable. You don't know. But, I mean, this is the type of thing if you've seen like um anything like the staircase documentary not the fucking show that's on the actual documentary if you've seen that they they attack everything michael peterson did exactly why'd you do that well why'd you call then well why'd you say that when you called and these are the reasons

why they found him guilty you know what i mean in the moment it felt right any proof of it yeah that's what i thought i should do i don't know they they attacked how he said it oh my wife fell down the stairs that they went up he's saying a narrative right away he didn't say my wife needs medical help which is what you normally say so it's that sort of deal but i guess i don't know anyway they said that um he said he didn't know the police number and that was that so i mean like i said give him the benefit of the doubt maybe he panicked and his mind was in your mind would melt if you saw that probably you're a regular person who's never seen that before you know i don't know he's not like he's just got back from nom or something you know like he's he's just a kid who works at a paper factory even then being robbed at gunpoint i didn't have

the wherewithal to call the police i didn't know and i didn't even see a dead body. So of somebody close to me. Yeah. Right. And worry. Oh, my God, is my son murdered also. So who knows here? So anyway, they do all that. Like I said, they show him all the photos.

He talks about the soap dish. He says, maybe my buddy here. You know, I don't know. They talk about the key in the lock and that they keep going over that with him multiple times to make sure now one of the there's a guy named ernest smith who's a wisconsin division of criminal investigations guy here yeah and he conducted an interview uh and with a with another guy as his partner named ray kruziger okay now kruziger was married to marilyn's twin sister carolyn oh boy so marilyn's brother-in-law and lane's brother-in-law is interrogating lane oh that's weird you can't

you you can't do that that's not that's not okay um yeah that's not good at all um so conflict of interest and that gives lane way too much comfort in that situation well even if he's not in the in the room he can't be in the interrogation or in the investigation at all he's got to be out it's too you can't do that so if you have some inside knowledge great if not you got to kind of step aside here so they said that uh kruziger described uh lane's account of such things as where his wife was sitting when she was struck. So he says, I talked to her. He's an investigator.

And he says, I talked to this other guy. I talked to the other investigator. And he told me that Lane said this. So Lane's brother-in-law is saying that uh kruziger knew things about like where his wife was sitting when she was killed that lane said quote uh this is the guy talking about lane quote he stated that her hair had been pulled that there were bruises on her knees so that's interesting now lane here he says quote i've never felt that strong of a love since it was pure. Marilyn was a living angel.

I'm sure that's what he says. Now, Darwin Gilbertson is another paper mill worker here. He works at the paper plant, and he said that third shift workers took breaks at one o'clock, three o'clock yeah and five o'clock yeah those are their breaks uh he said that lane worked in a different part of the plant that him than him but he said all employees usually took breaks at the same time in a designated break room so they all kind of just hung out in the break room because what are they gonna do go stand outside in a fucking paper mill parking lot i showed you that place it's depressing you'd sit in the break room there it'd be it's preferable to standing and looking at that place so gilbertson said at the

3 a.m break quote i don't remember seeing mcintyre in the break room uh-oh at the 3 a.m break so that's not great then they canvass the neighborhood okay canvas the neighborhood and they say uh they find out that a neighbor of theirs said that they heard lane and marilyn arguing between 10 and 11 p.m that evening on the 10th before she was killed before he went to work because he had to be there at 11. So between 10 and 11, they were arguing shortly before he went to work. That's the same time they find out about the life insurance policy. And they're like, this is not good at all here. That's not great.

What do we do there? So then they're like, what? We got to clear any enemies at all. Let's check out this Curtis Forbes guy. Maybe he's talking about this guy. Let's talk about him. They find out from multiple people that Forbes is good friends with Lane. Forbes and his girlfriend would hang out with them all the time.

They would have couples things they would do. But Forbes had recently abused this woman. Debbie is her name. He had recently abused her and she that week had run to her parents house to stay there all right and she had also at other times turned to marilyn mcintyre for help okay so to like uh for her advice yeah and she's come there for refuge before okay also she's ran to their house to say oh you know blah, blah, blah, showing up at the door crying. He's doing it again.

He's doing it again or whatever. I'm scared of him. Whatever the case is. So they said that she left. Debbie had left Curtis Forbes a week before all this happened. And Lane had told the cops maybe Forbes stopped by looking for Debbie because she's been here before. So that's all I can think of. If he stopped by looking for Debbie, Marilyn would probably open the door.

She knows him really well. He's been there a million times. Like she'd probably at least open the door to tell him that I don't know where Debbie is and, you know, blah, blah, blah. So that's all they can think of. They said that Lane said, quote, he should be your prime suspect. OK. So to get he should be your prime suspect from your prime suspect at the time or possible prime suspect, not saying he is one, but, you know, the only person you know of at the time. So that's the only by process of elimination.

And it's a logical convincing idea in theory especially if you hear they argued he took out a life insurance policy yeah you're now looking for evidence of him now because that looks bad but they they're like we got to check out curtis forbes like we said him and his girlfriend debbie were the you know couple they were their other couple hang out when they did couple shit together they went out frequently um debbie said we'd play cards we'd go fishing we'd go out to eat we got to be really close friends okay uh but then after a while that's when marilyn heard some shit about kurt yeah some foul shit now they know each other kurt and lane have known each other since like fourth grade jesus they've known each other forever uh lane's a year older than

kurt uh at first they were enemies for years in school they would yeah lane said they would get in fights all the time uh all the way up until high school they hated each other and then for some reason in high school it was like god we've gotten in so many fights we might as well just be friends each other so much we should just be pals so they ended up being really good friends instead like real tight all the way through high school and into the they're in their 20s now so uh there you go so um maybe lane could tell his friend kurt hey don't beat the shit out of your wife or girl that would help maybe maybe stop that you know what chicks hate when you beat them usually you should maybe not do that and not you know it's pretty fucked up when you do that and they tend to not like it so he said that you know debbie would turn to

marilyn for help that's what lane said so who knows what the hell's going on here and maybe he blamed marilyn for helping influence debbie to leave him we don't know he might be lashing out so curtis for Forbes gives hair samples. They say, you know, can we have your hair samples? He does. So he's a person of interest. They call him right away here. And, yeah, he had left a little bit about him.

He left high school at the start of his junior year. So he's got a solid 10th grade education here. Interesting. He went into the Army, which I didn't think. I thought you'd have to at least go through your junior year to be able to go into the Army, right? Or GED or something. Don't they need a GED from you? I think he probably got a GED and waited a little while because you've got to be at least 17, right? That's what I thought.

I figured that. I don't know, though. Maybe if he failed 17, he's a junior i guess so either way he served in germany while in the army for two years starting in 1975 uh he returned and became a carpenter and a masonry contractor okay so he had a partner and uh he was doing all of that that's what he was doing at this time later on his wife starts a trucking company it's really weird so yeah um anyway she uh forbes they knew each other from school really well so like we said they became really good friends and uh even marilyn and lane helped the forbes helped uh curtis and

debbie paint their kitchen even so i mean that's your friends that come over to help you paint your kitchen that's your close friends you know to help you paint your kitchen. That's your close friends, you know, painting party. Yeah. Just the four of them, too. Yeah. So when they talk to Curtis Forbes, he says is in October of 1980. That's how long until they talk. Wow.

Months go by. This happened in March. He tells the police. Well, on March 10th, I went out to dinner at a casino with my business partner, Randy Zander, and his wife as well, and traveling in their car because my truck was back in Columbus. So he said he had a couple of drinks. They said, were you drunk? And he said, I was feeling good, but I wasn't drunk at all. I just had a couple of drinks with food.

Having a good time. Having a good time. So they said, OK. So then Curtis Forbes said that he went to Marvin Dilley's home. Marvin Dilley. Enter Marvin Dilley. Went to his home in Fall River after leaving the Town Tap Bar in Columbus. Town with an E.

You know, old timey. So the Town Tap Bar. He said that Marvin wasn't there when he stopped by to see marvin after he left the bar but marvin's sister laurie was there so and well she's got something to say about that too so um yeah he said he went back to his uh back to debbie's parents resident where residents where they were staying uh he says no later than 2 30 a.m is the way he put it. He was back there. Now, there is a discrepancy about when he arrived because he says no later than 2 a.m., but that was after he left the town tap bar for three fucking hours,

so God knows how shit-hammered he was if he knew what time it was. Also, his wife and his in-laws all say that he didn't get there till about 4 a.m oh so that's a big discrepancy in time here and they believe she was killed maryland somewhere between 3 and 3 30 so you know there you go now um they said that um apparently um she had told maryland had told one of her friends or her sister that she had fended off a sexual advance by Curtis Forbes in the past, like a year ago when this happened. Yeah.

Like a while ago, but it's still, it happened like before they were married and she was pregnant and shit like that. There's a, they didn't get along at first, which was weird. Also,

she, he was, he was like mean to Marilyn. Yeah. It was very strange. He called her little miss piggy. What the fuck, man? Yeah, he's a dick, dude.

This guy's a dick. So he's just kind of an asshole. So the times are a thing. And there's that, that he tried to come on to Marilyn, even though he was with a woman and she was married. So that's strange. So they also interviewed William Forbes forbes who's curtis's brother and um they said does he have any weapons or anything like that that he carries around and he said well i mean he used to carry a crutch a crescent wrench and a club made from a sawed-off ore under the front seat

of his pickup truck who carries those who carries i get a wrench yeah or a bat who carries the sawed off sawed off or who carries that that sounds like a really weird weapon just get a bat bro fucking invest in a louisville what are you doing what am i gonna do with this or that i've got lying around you know what i can do i can saw it down and tuck it under my driver's seat use it as a weapon that's perfect like a psychopath that is nice so now william forbes said that sometime after the murder he doesn't know when because months have gone by he said that he looked for the ore in the truck but he couldn't find it so he doesn't know when he took it out it could have been six months before that it could have been he has no idea uh they then said will William said he and his other brother, Michael, found the club in a trailer somewhere.

So it was somewhere to be found. Now, William said he doesn't think Curtis could have murdered Marilyn at all, but he was known to chase women. So because they said, well, does he go after women? He goes, oh, he'll chase some women, but he ain't gonna kill none of them. That's all. That's what they said, basically. So they said that before, like the year before, Curtis told William that he wanted to have an affair with Marilyn. He said, I want to have an affair with Marilyn right after she married Lane.

So the brother knew that he definitely wanted to fuck Marilyn. That was out there. Like, he tried to fuck her is what I should say beforehand. And she was like, no, thank you. We're good here. Jesus Christ. So now shortly after the murders, by the way, within a few months, he ended up coming back. But he flees the state.

He's gone. Curtis Forbes. That looks terrible. Takes off. But at the same time, his girlfriend broke up with him. And he's got nothing else going on people are whispering about him uh either way he said that uh he went down to what he was back by october 1980 when they talked to him they said well where were you he said i

went down to new orleans and worked on a shrimp trawler in florida okay so you know and i got here i am now yeah i gumped it up a little bit here so he did send some letters though while he was gone these are amazing because i have them and they're great boy he sent a letter to lane mcintyre and to his girlfriend and they're wonderful um he said this is the letter he sent to lane mcintyre okay quote Lane, I don't know how to express my sympathy for you at this time in your life. I don't want to go to jail

for something I didn't do so I have to leave. Because he heard the cops wanted to talk to him. I think the police have ideas about trying to incarcerate me for this, but I am not guilty.

I hope you can believe me when I saw that, when I saw that I love you when I saw, that doesn't make any sense, but that's what it says. I hope you can believe me when I saw that I love you when I saw. That doesn't make any sense, but that's what it says. I hope you can believe me when I saw that I love you like a brother and would never hurt you in such a way. You're scared, confused, and true friend Curtis. P.S. Maybe someday when they catch whoever it was, I can come back. So that's what he said.

It's very confusing how he wrote it, but he's on the run. So who knows? Then he writes Debbie. Okay. This is his girlfriend, Debbie, here. The girl that broke up with him? The girl that broke up with him. Yeah.

He says, quote, Dear Debbie, I just don't know what to say to you except that I love you very much and always will. I just don't want to go to jail for will to you except that i love you very much and always will i just don't want to go to jail for something i didn't do there's way too much circumstantial evidence against me so i have to go oh that doesn't sound good no i hope you believe in me and maybe someday when they catch whoever did it i can come back he's cutting and pasting a couple things here sure yeah i will always love you and miss you very, very much. Don't cry over me, Deb. There's more fish in the pond. Sell my ring

to pay off the bike and here's $20 so you can come get your car. Buy, my love. Curtis. P.S. Your car is in Kenosha. Call the police to find it. The keys are under the mat and bring your other set. Oh God, I love you so much deb

what a weird paragraph that is to to end a set to start a paragraph with your car is in kenosha and end it with oh god i love you so much deb is a very long way to go in one sentence he went a long way so that is a man on the run man i would say so so yeah uh following the death here um they found uh they found that apparently at one point uh curtis and debbie were engaged they found a newspaper clipping in a scrapbook that of his that was uh they were actually engaged at one point. They found it like from the Columbus Journal Republican newspaper. So they also said that Lane's sister here said that on the night of March 10th, she ran into ran into Curtis at the bar. OK. And she said that he was trying to get to get in her pants basically

yeah is everybody related is everybody someone's brother-in-law this one's sister this one's this and that i'm very this is so confusing it's worse when everybody's trying to fuck everybody yeah that's the other thing and i have to go like wait they're not related right no no they're not okay this one's this one's in law or whatever the hell but this is also what happens in small towns like this is so wild you yeah you've everybody you've known you've like you've fingered their sister it's just one of those things it's really you can't have friends where you've fingered all their sisters it's just weird that's what happens in small towns it's very strange yeah makes for a real creepy creepy times my friend in idaho had to tell everybody that would come visit him please don't try to fuck my sister

i get that she's the only one here yes there's very few women there and his sister's hot man so ronda here the sister she said that when she rejected curtis's advance at the town tap on march 10th uh told him to go away because i guess he said he had a pocket full of money for some reason like he was gonna pay her pay her for it i don't know if he was offering her like uh how about a half and half sweetheart like no i'm decent proposal yeah yeah she told him to that he and his pocket full of money can go away and then she reminded him that she was married also. And she said she finally had to walk away when he tried to kiss her. So he's being aggressive.

Now, she also will say later on, Lane's sister, that Lane was crying hysterically and in a fetal position when she saw him that morning after learning of Marilyn McIntyre's death, which is that's normal. I would say that's a normal response. Absolutely is. So Lane, his friend Kenneth Peeler said he also saw every he knows everybody. He said he saw Curtis Forbes at the town tap to that night. He said that Peeler said that he would occasionally visit Marilyn McIntyre at the apartment while Lane was at work. Like himself.

There's a bunch of people. They're friends with. They know everybody. And people are just coming over while I'm at work. Stopping by. Stay away from my wife. So Peeler said he would occasionally come by and visit. And she would lift up the curtain on the window of the door there to see who was there and then let him inside.

So there's a lot of people she would let inside, apparently. Plenty. Also, Lori. Lori is, Jesus, Lori Dilly Beattie is her name. She is a sister of Forbes' friend Richard Dilly. Okay? Yeah. Dick Dilly.

Dick Dilly. Oh, my God. So Dick Dilley. Dick Dilley. Oh, my God. So Dick Dilley and his sister Lori over here. Now, Lori says that Forbes, Curtis, asked her for a date and made sexual advances toward her about two weeks before the murder. He just does not care. He's trying to fuck everybody.

Everything that moves. She said thatis said that he and debbie were no longer together at the time because they were like on and off constantly he she also said that uh forbes stopped briefly at her apartment at 1 15 a.m march 11th 1980 and stayed for five minutes uh before leaving she said he looked nervous almost like he was on speed or something was her exact quote which is odd because look nervous would be like that implies that she thinks like that he already killed her but that didn't happen for hours i thought so right why would he be nervous beforehand maybe he was nervous about knocking on your door and trying to get in your pants at 1.15 a.m.

because he knows that's a bad bargain. Yeah, 1.15 is a bad time to be asking for sex if you're already asleep. He's knocking on the door of the library trying to sell encyclopedias, and they're like, We got it. Don't need you. Not now. He's knocking on the door hoping you're not asleep and then trying to pitch. And that's not fun.

No. And then I guess Curtis called her two days after Marilyn's death asking if she had talked to the police. Because a lot of people, as we've heard, everyone in town has talked to the police. So she told, Curtis told investigators that he had been at her apartment between 1 one a.m. and one forty five a.m. He doesn't know when. So he Laurie says that Curtis told her our stories don't fit. So that's what you say. I was there at one fifteen.

I say, you know, you said five minutes. I said I was there longer. Whatever. So then Michael Forbes, who is Curtis's brother as well. So many brothers in this. Jesus Christ. They talk about they work together construction-wise, and they said that they're about approximately the same size. I don't know what that mattered, but the police concentrated on that for some reason.

I don't know why. If they think maybe they're doppelgangers, he was there. I don't know what. It's a dumb thing to bring up. know why if they think maybe he they're doppelgangers he was there i don't know what it's a dumb thing to bring up but yeah either way uh they said that uh one of the investigators ernest smith said that he interviewed william forbes there and um he's he's the one that got the that quote he mentioned he wanted to have an affair with marilyn mcintyre boy i sure would like to have an affair with my friend's wife i'll tell you what a weird thing to say out loud they also said that apparently michael forbes told the investigators that curtis forbes took

two thousand dollars in cash from the construction business that the brothers shared when forbes left wisconsin so he like swiped two grand and ran away to new orleans to go on a fishing trawler um he said the missing cash uh put the business in a tight spot and that Michael had to repay the $2,000 because it was for people's jobs basically it was for materials your construction site is floundering I don't think they're putting up

skyscrapers here I think two grand in Wisconsin in 1980 was a shitload of money too I think that was a lot to fuck up and have an extra 10 grand, you know, with inflation. So they said that he Forbes said that he he did the dinner with the friends at the casino. Then he went to two taverns in Columbus, the town tap and somewhere else till about 1 a.m. Then he visited with friends, Laurie D dilly and charles hughes which was he tried to fuck laurie dilly and then uh he said for about 15 to 20 minutes till about

1 30 then he arrived at debbie's parents house at around 2 he said his truck was in a parking lot off ludington street near the fireman's Tavern, which was the second place he was, which is about two blocks from the apartment of our people here, of the McIntyres. But that's where the bar is. It's a small town. So he also told, Forbes told the cops that he did not drive past the McIntyres apartment at any time that evening. said he did not drive past the McIntyre's apartment at any time that evening. And during this interview, they told Forbes that he wasn't told he was a suspect.

There was none of that shit. So they were just treating him as a witness. Did you see anything that night? You were close by. Did you drive by there? No, I hadn't seen anything. Do you know them? Do you know of anything? It's one of those deals deals so they don't even really interview him as a as a suspect so anyway uh he

left for about two and a half months when he took off from town here till everything cooled down they um forbes said that the reason he left was because his fiancee had moved back in with her parents due to a family crisis at the time the family crisis was that he was beating the shit out of her and trying to fuck everybody in town yeah that's not a family crisis that's now she moved back in because i'm a piece of shit i'm a scumbag he also says that he didn't want to live alone in the big house that he shared with her and he also said you know small bills were just piling up. And he said he was getting the feeling that he was going nowhere and he felt total uselessness. And his mind was feeling sour after being with Debbie for two years.

So he needed to go clear his mind and get out of here. So, yeah. And then he said, I sent letters and all that. And obviously, I'm not guilty. See, I sent letters saying I'm not guilty in one of them. Do you read that? I am not guilty. I, I sent letters saying I'm not guilty in one of them. Do you read that? I am not guilty. I think that pretty much I said it twice.

And I mentioned other words all plenty in a sentence. And that's how it worked. I gave descriptions to a car that was far away, you know, like a murderer does. Yeah. I said, do that. And here's $20. And things are under floor mats. And it sounded pretty shady, right?

That's what I thought. Here's $20 and things are under floor mats. Right. Sounded pretty shady, right? That's what I thought. So anyway, they said that Forbes all stayed with a friend of his in Chicago for a minute before leaving for Florida to be on a fishing boat there. So Forbes' friend Richard Dilley, Dick Dilley over here, he said that when Forbes returned to Wisconsin in the fall after being gone a couple months, he had longer hair and a beard.

And Dilley said that he didn't think he would have even recognized him if he didn't come to his house, basically. If you saw him on the street, you'd have walked right past him. He looked so different. So to run away and change your appearance looks terrible after someone's been murdered. Sure does. That doesn't look good at all. So his alibi, though, is I was out drinking. I saw my friend.

I tried to fuck her, obviously, even though I know her boyfriend really well. Still tried to bang her. Tried to bang my friend's sister, who's also married. She rejected me. And then I went to my girlfriend's parents' house because she left me because I beat her. Does that sound good? How's that? And when all else failed, I figured, fuck it, I'll be a pirate.

Oh, my God. So, yeah, he was unable to account for the time. He says, no, I think I got there at 2, and Debbie says, no, it was 4. So he's unable to account for those two hours other than, I don't know, I was drunk, I guess. My times are screwed up i have no idea now um they did test the sawed-off boat oar that they found in that trailer that his brothers found it was tested in 1981 in august of 81 so the testing

back then not terrific what does that testing do just find out that it's made of wood looking for blood and hair or fibers that might have soaked in. But like we said, there's no DNA that you're going to get from under a splinter or anything here. But it lacked specific scientific evidence such as blood, hair or fibers to connect it with the scene. So can't connect that with the scene. They said the sweater that he wore that night that witnesses said he was wearing at the bar was examined by authorities in march of 1980 so right after this whole thing and uh it was returned to him several weeks later so can't imagine that's part of the crime if they returned it to him um later on a person representing him said quote you'd think there'd be something as blood or fiber given the violence of

the murder if they if it had any evidentiary whatsoever, they wouldn't have returned it to him, which makes sense. Also, the pickup truck he was driving was searched thoroughly two days after the murder, and there was no report of any evidence connecting it to the crime scene then. Whoever did it would have been soaked in blood. Soaked in blood. But then again, we're going back to OJ now, too. This is the Oj thing of only

a little but even then even oj had a little bit of blood yep they it was clean i mean i even if you clean it man it'd be so hard to get every little drop yeah they still had black lights back then and shit like that luminol i mean they had all that in the 80s so So now Marilyn's brother-in-law. Okay. Jesus Christ. One of her sister's husbands here. This is Gerald niece. He says, quote, according to Lane, this is something you heard from Lane. This is a statement he makes to the police here that when Lane first first introduced Marilyn to Kurt Forbes, Kurt referred to Marilyn as, quote, that little piggy, which is like Charles Manson language.

It's weird to say. It's a weird thing to say. Right. He might have just read Helter Skelter. Let's be, I mean, it came out in the 70s. Possible, yeah. It's also something that poonhounds call, you know what I mean? Is it?

It's words that they say. Well words that's not an insult it's certainly an insult is that like is that like fine looking wool or something is that like one of those it's certainly an insult it's like okay going it's like going ugly early oh okay yeah yeah i get what you're saying i get what you're saying yeah he's just saying like i don't know like if if the if there's nobody else i'll tag the piggy you You know what I mean? Something like that. Oh, man. That's what it feels like. I guess. Yeah. Wow. So I guess Lane said that when he told Marilyn what Curtis had said, which I wouldn't do, I wouldn't.

Hey, my friend called you a pig. That's not nice. I guess she was mad at Curtis for a long time. So she didn't want to hang out with them for a long time. This guy, Gerald, also indicated that she eventually got over being mad at him and would talk with him and be comfortable around him until recently when she heard reports that he would beat his girlfriend, Debbie. And that because of those beatings, she was again mad at him. So she's come back around full circle here. Hagen beats my friend. Yeah.

Another guy here, he is married to ronda mcintyre this is he's married this is the the woman from the bar that he tried to bang in the bar this is her husband uh seidlinger is his name uh she he's married to like i said lane here um now or she she's he's married to lane's sister. This is so confusing. Yeah, I think that's illegal in Wisconsin at this time. Holy shit, yeah. At least in Wisconsin. I mean, I can't say for everywhere. So, Seidlinger indicated that he's a welder, and he works the second shift, 3.30 p.m. until midnight.

He said he's been employed for a year. This is his whole affidavit. He says that he finished work on Monday night, approximately midnight, and arrived in columbus at approximately 12 35 a.m march 11th 1980 so about three hours before the murder yeah he stayed with what they think anyway he states that he recalls looking at the bank clock in columbus on that night as he does most every night as he returns from work he said that in driving through town he observed his wife's car at the town tap tavern but that because of his dirty appearance because he just got off of work that's why i said told you what he was doing he didn't stop at the tavern but instead just went home in doing so he passes

right by the mcintyre residence which you have apparently to go anywhere you have to pass by their house it's a weird place to murder somebody um so you'd have to he drove past the residence at about 12 35 and observed at the time that the lights to the resident were off and he stated that he did not see their dog on the front porch area of the home at that time like he was later he also indicated that he did not see lane mcintyre's car or any other automobile there at the time he said he went went home, took a bath, ate some food. He said about 1 a.m. he watched the television show Black Sheep Squadron. I don't know what that is.

It sounds like a bad 70s action show. And that lasted until about 2 a.m., at which time he went to bed. He said that about 3 a.m. in the morning, or 3 a.m. That's how he put it anyway. 3 a that about 3 a.m. in the morning or 3 a.m. That's how he put it anyway. 3 a.m. in the morning. I hate people do that. He was awakened by his dog who had not been feeling well or a clock on the mantle that

chimes on the hour. He didn't know which one, but he noticed that his wife wasn't home yet at 3 a.m. So he said he was worried and he indicated that she frequently doesn't come home right after the bars closed, but usually calls him if she's going to hang out and bullshit. So he said that he turned on the radio at that time, believing that the television stations were no longer on the air because it's back then pre cable. And he had a soda. So he had a soda. And then he noticed the digital clock read 3 15 a.m so he stated that

he left the house between 3 15 and 3 20 a.m looking for his wife okay he said that he had very little gas in his car and didn't want to have to drive too great a distance so he indicated that he went past the mcintyre home again at the time when they say the murder happened okay this guy is saying i was driving past the house which is he put himself on the scene um yeah he drove past the house and observed that this time the lights were on and the dog was outside in the yard oh so yes um according to him there was a red nova or pontiac with a black vinyl top with mag wheels. He said it was jacked up a little bit in the rear end parking in the rear end.

And I was jacked up in the rear end. It was parked on Prairie Street, which is down the street. It wasn't he wasn't like right in front of the house or anything like that. So he thought maybe Marilyn was up feeding the baby. It's baby's three months old. They still wake up a lot of that age or the dog had to shit or who knows, you know? And,

uh, he said he didn't pay much attention to the lights being on. He did indicate that if he had suspected anything was wrong, that he would have stopped and gone in. He said that he drove past the town tap tavern, turned around, did not see his wife's car and drove back home. So no one saw him dude he just went he said i went out drove past it turned around and came home so i saw the lights and

stuff but no one saw me so he said this time he didn't go past the mcintyre residence he went a different direction but he just said he didn't have a lot of gas and so he went on that doesn't make sense let me go on a tour around town. Yeah. Well, maybe he was looking for his wife. He stated that he does not remember looking at the clock again when he got home. This guy's been always a clock glancer before this. But that he got – that he went to bed and was again awakened at approximately 4.15 by his dog being sick.

by his dog being sick. He said at that time he heard a car and looked out the window and saw his wife was being dropped off by her sister, who is one of Lane's other sisters, who's also named Debbie. Holy shit. What? Not Curtis's Debbie, a different Debbie.

I hope you guys got your charts here, because this is... There's so many people. These fucking small town family trees, man, I can't... They're so hard to keep track of. This is so many people. These fucking small town family trees, man. I can't. They're so hard to keep track of. This is brutal. So it was hard for me to really get it like an umbrella overview of this thing.

I really enjoy my life because if I ever had to tell a story with character of cast, cast of characters, it would be so quick. So much simpler than nobody would be confused ever they'd know exactly who everybody is that's my brother's wife who's also now her sister's married to my other cousin and then my cousin's uh brother he actually married my wife's cousin this is how recessive genes are what is are showcased in children. Stop it. Stop. My God, it's a mess.

I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official jinx podcast we'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on max starting april 21st bye bye the official jinx podcast listen on max or wherever you get your podcasts um he said that his wife came in the house and then went to bed.

He recalls about 7.20 a.m. Rhonda's mother, who is also Lane's mother, and his mother-in-law, Mildred is her name, came over to their house and informed them of Marilyn's death. So within 10 minutes of him calling her. This Siedlinger also states that he has only been over to Lane and Marilyn's home on two occasions. And he said that the last time, but he's close enough to drive by all the time. He said the last time was at Christmas time to visit when they had the new baby. It was when the baby just came home.

He says that he did not stop at the McIntyre home on Monday night or Tuesday morning. He indicated he had nothing to do with Marilyn's death and does not know who did. He said the shades were always pulled on the McIntyre residence, but he could notice that the light around the, he could notice the light around the shade and he does not know whether there were any lights on the upstairs apartment. And he said that it's not unusual for him to drive by the place because it's the middle of town. So yeah, that's that.

That doesn't look great. Not at all. He's the only person so far who's admitted to being pretty much at the scene at the time it happened. So that's that's not good. So 1981 comes along. Still nothing has happened here. No arrests. Still nothing has happened here.

No arrests. The city council approves a donation of $500 of city money to the Marilyn McIntyre reward fund. Well, that'll do it, I'm sure. $500. I ought to get some people. $500. Oh, boy. The reward will be given to anyone who can provide information about the murder. So I think up that a little bit.

Let's chip in, everybody. Christ. So the case goes cold. Wow. They can't find anybody um it's there's nothing they have these samples these hair samples they have blood samples the hair samples were destroyed when they were doing the ship but there's still the coding of it they still have so they can work something out there so back then to test anything too you had to

have a giant sample or it would be destroyed. It was just the way it was. I mean, remember the Russell Williams interrogation? They're like, back in the day, you need like a half a cup of blood. No, you didn't. But that's that's fine. Yeah. So the case goes cold for about 22 years.

Stop this. Nothing happens until 2003. Oh, my. nothing happens until 2003 oh my now during this time lane has married and divorced twice more jesus um his son has stopped talking to him really and everybody in town gives him glances that that's the guy who killed his wife really he's quote the guy who killed his wife. Really? He's, quote, the guy who killed his wife, like to a lot of gossip, to gossipy people at the supermarket and all that shit. That's that guy.

You didn't know about that? About 20 years ago, his wife died. He came home. He was at work. And I'm sure they exaggerate details to make him sound guilty and all that kind of shit. So it's 2003. The Columbus police find.

How much evidence storage could there be at the Columbus, Wisconsin Police Department? How much do they stumble across something that they accidentally lost? Wow. They find a box of evidence in a storage closet and decide to send whatever DNA samples were there to the state crime lab just to see what happens. What is this? Let's 23 and me it that's shit let's see what's going on someday we're gonna be able to do something with this now the ron family here carolyn her identical twin here she said obviously her world was torn apart by this this was terrible she said since the last 20 years she said said, quote, it was hell. I turned to alcohol. My marriage failed. I wasn't there for my children. Oh, Jesus Christ.

You poor thing. That's horrible. She said this just destroyed her life. She says, I think she I'm sorry. Carolyn's daughter said, quote, I think she feels like when Marilyn died, a big part of her died. It's twins are weird. That's a weird thing. And Marilyn died.

A big part of her died. Twins are weird. That's a weird thing. So she said her daughter, Tara, was born a year after Marilyn died. So she never met her, actually. But she says, my first memories are seeing my mom crying on the phone about Marilyn. So this was something her whole life that was like this big loomingoming thing your mom's dead you know murdered sister that they've never found the killer and it's yeah it's her first member memories she was probably four or

five maybe six maybe even a little bit older and for at least five or six years afterwards she was terrible inconsolable on the phone still it's it's awful it. It's fucking awful. And then through all of this, too, the fact that no other murders happened. They were like, well, it's either the husband or some crazy psychopath. That's what the people in town said. They'd be like, well, it's either the husband or some psychopath. I didn't see no other murders happening. So that made Lane more guilty in the eyes of these townspeople with no evidence whatsoever. That was just what they were thinking here.

So, yeah, they said that as Tara grew up, she saw her mother constantly try to have efforts to convince the Columbus Police Department to reopen the case, and they never did. So Carolyn said, quote, I couldn't tell you how many detectives we went through. We didn't know where else to go or where else to turn. So, like we said, Lane, two marriages went through. We didn't know where else to go or where else to turn. So, like we said, Lane, two marriages fall apart. Son won't talk to him. Same thing. He says, quote, I've been an innocent man persecuted all these years.

I've had this dark cloud hanging over my head and I've done nothing wrong. That's Lane. Christopher, this is sad, the son. Christopher, he didn't even know about it till he was 10 years old what he thought that his stepmom was his mom you can't do that to people god damn it stop doing this he thought his stepmom was his mom and he thought he had he said he thought he had the most idyllic upbringing he's small town wisconsin and he's got these two parents that love him and everything's great and then he found out what's safe yeah he said and then when he was about 10 years old his father sat him down decided to tell him the truth about what was going on and he said listen your mom isn't really your real mom um not your birth mom anyway you know she's been like a mother to

you but and i could see by the way faulting faulting lane for getting married right away i think is a lot of load of shit because he's got a three-month-old son and a 23 year old guy in 1980 has no fucking idea what to do with a three-month-old son no idea what to do with a three-month-old son they'd be like i gotta get married a sap so i can get somebody to help me with this kid that's what they would do could i fuck i can't afford a maid i better get married that was like what a guy would think in 1980 yeah something someone will help me here so christopher said that just destroyed his world obviously he said quote i guess i was about nine or ten that's when my father decided to let me know the woman i thought was my mother i found out was not my real mother he he told me you'll never meet your real mom she's gone um so he found out that she was murdered

and later on um lane says i was waiting for him to get a little bit older so he could understand and for christopher he said the truth was confusing and difficult to hear he just didn't understand what was going on there's no good way to do that, by the way. No. I think the only way is to really just show the kid pictures of her, I mean, as a child, as a fucking real small child. Yeah, this is your mom, so they always know that. That would be the only way to do it. Because otherwise, and even that might fucking make them really weird and morbid and shit.

You know what I mean? You've got to tell them, though, right away, because they got to know who they are. You can't go to preschool going, you want to see a picture of my dead mom with a big smile because they're used to it and it's normal? You don't get them to take it home with them. You don't take it out with them. Like, creepy shit like that. It would fuck the kid up a little bit, but it might be the healthiest in the long run, though. I think you're probably right there.

At least you don't necessarily have to tell them that she was murdered, but you can tell them that mommy passed away. You know what I mean? And then later on tell them how, when they can handle that part. But you don't necessarily have to hide who they are. Because that's what it is. An identity is fucking everything. To be like, oh yeah, everything that you thought was in this world solid and secure isn't anymore, actually. It's the Truman Show at that point.

Just nobody's watching. To hear that's not actually your real mom is a crazy thing for anybody that's a fucked up thing so that's what that's what sent manson off the deep end well it was a little more than that yeah but i mean it was it was a trigger to when he found out that his real life was not his real life if he found that out and then everybody was nice to him though he'd end up like christopher instead of like charles manson that's the difference though because christopher then they were still nice to him and people supported him whereas charles manson they sent him to live with psychotic people who abused him and told him bad shit and dressed him up weird and sent him to juvenile hall when he was seven to get raped and thank god christopher didn't have that

happen to him and and granted christ Christopher's mom was a good person and yeah Charles Manson's mom was a fucking nightmare a little different upbringings yeah a little bit different here at least he had a stable home with two people who cared about him when he found out so he had a support system to be upset in at least so as he grew up a little bit though he would hear more about his mother's case he looked into it he was trying to find out about his mom's murder as most people would probably yeah that's when he came across how everybody was saying his father did it oh damn it so he started to think his father did it yeah um he said he never had directly asked his dad if he had a hand in it because it was such a difficult thing to do but he because everyone said it and

they never caught anybody he just assumed that yeah that's it so he said by the time he was 15 it had grown to be such a huge thing that christopher just moved out he left when he was 15 he left home because he couldn't trust that his dad didn't murder his mom in his mind so um he you know it's it's fucking crazy so um anyway they have uh they're they're still looking into this 2003 is when they find the evidence late 2007 they still done nothing with it okay four years later members of maryland's family on their you know every once in a while they call the cops they call me say we haven't heard anything in years will you fucking reopen this case there's because this is 2007 you're hearing dna solving cases everywhere now it's like can you maybe try

to solve my sister's case possibly what the fuck man try this shit so i guess uh yeah they they did that they made a phone call this is her niece tara made a phone call and uh she said it was actually the wrong number she called which is weird but it worked she said quote i thought i was calling calling the columbus police department and instead it was the number to the columbia county sheriff's department so instead of calling the small town fucking police force they called the county people who are probably way more competent at doing shit like this. He said the detective here. This is fucking crazy.

The people who actually solve the goddamn thing. The Wayne Smith is his name. He's a detective lieutenant. He said, quote, I had never heard that there was an unsolved homicide within the county. It wasn't in our record system. Had no idea. So they went. They found a box of

evidence and were like that's weird and then sat there for years didn't even go we should maybe see if the county guys want to give this a crack not they didn't even fucking it wasn't even in the system that's how little they looked into it bro damn think about that they didn't even ask like the county people hey has there been similar homicides at all in the last 20 years that we can compare this to basic police investigative work they don't fucking do pathetic that is sadly it's not stunning on this show how many fucking times have we heard this far too common at least the mayor didn't come and like trample all the blood evidence that's the only thing saving grace here to this fucking town so um but the county people

they try they're trying hard here so after uh reviewing this case the detective lieutenant smith here said that uh let's all reopen this investigation they've fucked everything up from from jump here so what are we doing um carolyn the sister twin said quote you could tell right away that they cared and they seemed shocked that i'd have gone on this long yeah yeah they said they probably these county people said everything except though that police force is a pile of shit anything you need call us do not call them because it's just sad so um anyway they said fucking whatever they started. They started from scratch with a complete reinvestigation. Basically, they said they started with who's your sister? Let's talk about that.

Start from scratch. So February 21st, 2008, still not solved. Twenty seven years later. Damn it. Still not solved. The Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory conducts DNA evidence from the case here. Finally, even though they found it five years ago. The report says that they found a DNA pattern developed from a stain or in the McIntyre's bathroom sink.

OK, that's where they're getting this from. And they they say that Curtis Forbes forbes is a quote possible contributor to this okay now this is the problem okay um they end it ends up being there's only about a you know how it's usually like uh 700 billion to one chance like more people 20 times over than around the planet or whatever it's a 98 to one chance that he more people 20 times over than are on the planet or whatever. It's a 98 to one chance that he's a contributor to it. 98 people to one? Yes.

And there's 5,000 in the town. So, yeah, there's literally, you know, 50 people walking around town that it could be. Just in this town that it could match. That could also match. So this is not close enough to say oh that lock and stock and barrel like otherwise you have to investigate everybody else that it matches and that's going to be millions of hundreds of thousands of people in the country right so it's not going to work out very well so um now they uh they met they try to match hair samples as well but like i said they were kind of fucked up.

So what they're doing is they need to exhume her. They're going to pull her out of the ground after 27 years. Oh, God. Horrifying to think about that. So they said, fresh eyes, better DNA technology. Let's give it a whirl here. The one investigator said the family deserves a resolution to this case and we are looking hard to get there that's good the sheriff's department also received a tip from an informant who was

familiar about this whole deal and uh the tip ended up having the wrong time frame but had some interesting information that we'll talk about in a minute so um anyway they're they they have a partial match i guess, a possible contributor. So they're going to try to test material from her that they can exhume from DNA and hope there's more shit on there. They wanted something at it, but they couldn't really do anything. The body was in no condition to get anything out of it. It was just, it's so old. So it's been 27 years.

They did say that they found artificial lee press on fingernails okay okay they had that the tips of the finger bones on the press on nails were were held were pretty intact because the elements of glue yeah it had protected them it's used it as a shield basically so they said that little piece of her finger we might be able to get something off of and it turns out nothing couldn't get anything out of it so it was very close so yeah it's tough the niece said quote we're happy that something's being done and very hopeful this will give us the answers that we need that is awful they pulled her out of the ground open that that casket for nothing, disturbed a grave.

Damn it. Pulled her out of the ground. The family had to go through all that, and they got nothing. But, I mean, they had to. They had nothing else to go on. You're grasping at straws. You can blame the Columbus guys for this. They could have fucking done that 15 years ago.

You know what I mean? She would have been in better shape, I'm sure. So they interviewed a person in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, as a person of interest. But then that didn't work out. They had an idea there. I guess there was another murder in that area that was similar around that time. So then they were concentrating on somebody close by. They said the tests we want to do weren't available before.

Some different types of tests allow us to test some of the evidence that's not necessarily a blood stain. This is like contact DNA and skin cells and shit like that they're talking about. So they said, hopefully we can get it wrapped up quickly. He said, but we've got some lab work that back that's promising. And because of that, we're doing some additional lab work looking for additional corroborating evidence so basically they're like okay 98 to 1 isn't great but if we have a whole bunch of corroborating evidence and that and it could be him scientifically then that's enough basically we can make a case out of that so curtis um they want to talk to him again here um they find out during this time they they pick up Curtis to talk to him.

They also talk to Debbie, who, by the way, has now been married to him for 30 years. Debbie, who he beat and ran away to her mom's house, they got married shortly after that and have been together ever since. Love story. Happy ending. She runs, let's not go that far. She runs a trucking company that he works for and all this type of shit. Now, Debbie's interrogated by the police at this point. While she's interrogated by the police, they find out something very interesting.

That Curtis not only was planning on relocating to Hawaii, but was planning on faking his own death. Why would Curtis want to do that? Just now. He's like, like i gotta fake my death and get out of here which is very strange have you ever thought about faking your own death seriously i mean obviously it sounds good sometimes everybody's thought of it but i would never no we're not serious no it's like not like how do i do this here no i've thought about it in how could you but not like how could I because I need to.

But they thought about that and they were like, that's enough to bring him in for questioning, right? He wants to fake his own death. So they said he's built up a nest egg and they were packing to leave when the cops came to their house. Oh, like they were all now all packed up. Yeah. So I guess they're talking about they asked him about the night before the murder when he hit on two women at the town tap and one at her home. That was the lorry woman there. And we'll rebuff both times.

They say, you know, two days after the murder we talked to you and you said the times and, you know, blah, blah, blah. He denied hitting on any of the women, by the way. Oh, really? Yeah, he said, they're all crazy. I don't know if my, you know what? I have an animal magnetism that women confuse sometimes for a come on, when really, I'm just saying hello, being a nice guy. It's just that they feel a magnetic attraction to me that I can't help. That's all it is.

It's called pheromones, Officer Triumph. It's they're flying off of me like crazy. I wear this old spice. It's just the ladies come a-flocking. So Debbie, this is his wife, Debbie, she also gives out a new piece of information now. And that is that on the morning of March 11th, 1980, when she saw Curtis, Curtis had blood splattered on his shirt. Oh. That's a new one.

That would have been helpful 30 fucking years ago yeah when he showed up at her house around 4 a.m um when she said she asked about it and he just kind of blew her off and also her mother cleaned the bloody shirt that day so he had it he had the mug he got something on his shirt will you clean it ma you know how to get stains out and she did it for her so they also said that um she told the cop she saw blood on a white shirt that he had on under his sweater then that was that that day because the sweater remember was cleared right everything yeah that was clean so she said it got on maybe took the sweater off to murder her that's a weird thing to do um you get sweaty you get a little sweaty she said that uh he arrived at about 4 a.m he was shaking and very agitated and had blood on his shirt and was unable to sleep you know like a murderer yeah yeah like a

fucking like a murderer does like something real bad just happened yeah he's uh debbie said that he made up an excuse that she didn't believe about the blood on his shirt and that's how that went now maryland's friend janice young she talked to cops on march 1st 2009 jesus about that saying about a month before maryland's death that janice young had also pushed away sexual advances from curtis. Really? He's tried to fuck everyone in that town. Jesus, what a scumbag. So I guess, yeah, they couldn't figure out where he was, that the times don't match.

And then they get a big break. About 2002, okay, somebody comes forward. They don't come forward till later, but it's about a conversation that happened in 2002. forbes told this person that he quote got away with murder during a conversation oh forbesy that's not good um a conversation about crimes turned to a discussion of dna evidence and testing making it impossible to get away with murder they were talking about probably somebody's probably watched fucking law and order the night before like this you know you can't do it now i tell you what this this uh william peterson over here on the csi this guy i'll get you every time you

can't you can't get away with nothing now anything i swear to god one drop of sweat they're gonna catch you you know what i mean so you can't get away with no more murders forget about it everybody and um he said quote then it was a quote is that curtis said quote that's not true i got away with it he uh then yeah then later told this is what he told the guy though he told the guy that he took a friend's wife home from a bar and then quote she never made it back home or never breathed again that night that's now much that none of that happened though she did make it home and or never breathed again that night. That's too much. None of that happened, though.

She did make it home, and she never was at a bar. Right. So this is the problem. When someone gives a statement to an informant, do you only take the part that's helpful to you and then get rid of the rest of it because it doesn't fit your narrative? What do you do then? You know what I mean? I guess you can take it as. A different woman? or is he just trying

to impress people there you go that's the other thing that you go to with that so um that's what happened also they he was being surveilled for months here in 2008 2009 they were keeping curtis under surveillance and then that was a uh it was revealed that he was contacting a carpenter's union in Hawaii about getting a job there. And they said, quote, this is the prosecutor later on, we'll say, because of exhumation, Curtis began hatching a plan to fake his disappearance. Oh, so he heard about the exhumation. Yep, he heard about the exhumation, and he was going to go to Hawaii, but under a a different name and try to fake his own death they said that he planned on taking a boat along with an inflatable raft out in the lake michigan and sinking the boat to make it look like he died in an accident and then taking his raft over to the shore and then

fleeing that was the goal and so they'd never find his body and then they just eventually declare him dead is that what they'd assume it was just eaten by fish in the lake, and that's it. Or maybe he was going to have a fiery explosion, and it must have burned to cinder in the air. We don't know, but that was his plan. So, yeah, that's really weird. Then they talked to his boss as well. His boss, his name is Gary Bednar. He was his boss back in the day, in 2002. Bednar said that after he plowed the forbes's driveway hey he came over

and plowed that driveway you know i'm talking about uh that's a that's a code for male male female you know what i'm saying so i plowed that driveway real nice he uh he said uh in 2002 that forbes offered bednar some weed and they sat there smoking and they were talking. You know, when you're smoking, things will come out. And he said that, you know, they were talking and Forbes told him, you know, knowing that Bednar had spent time in prison on a homicide charge, he figured he'd talk to him. Yeah, this guy's also a murderer. Did I mention that? Bednar, his boss, is a fucking murderer?

Yeah, he's a murderer also. So apparently he spent time in prison on a homicide charge. Jesus. It's not good. So Bednar says, quote, he told me I must not know how to get away with homicide because he's gotten away with murder. I don't know what the fuck you went to jail for. Yeah, idiot. Forbes told him that he had once given a ride home to a woman then had his way with her

then killed her again this is not what happened though it's a different story it's a different fuck it's the same story he told the other guy but about a different thing is does he have shame i would not be either that or i would not be surprised he just said i took her home and raped her and killed her what was it a different woman that's what i mean what would be the difference of i took her from a bar raped her and killed her or i knocked on her door and raped her and killed her it's the same shit so this is a different story that is specific to something else right that doesn't mean that he didn't do this but that that's is he talking about a different woman does he killed another woman oh boy that's what i mean so um and then

he made the comment that quote she'd never needed a ride home again after that again ride home is very coming up everywhere she was in her home in her fucking nightgown she was not out so we know that we know she didn't leave to go to the bar with a three-month-old fucking baby in her nightgown that's not gonna happen so um now bednar said he didn't believe for go to the bar with a three-month-old fucking baby in her nightgown. That's not going to happen. So now Bednar said he didn't believe Forbes at the time. He said, I was thinking at the time that he was high on dope and trying to impress me. But Forbes here, this is another Forbes, a different Forbes, one of the relatives. He said, quote, Bednar was never in the home,

and he added that he never smelled marijuana. Oh, this is the son. This is Forbes' son. He said he never smelled marijuana or observed his father smoking marijuana in their home. Well, guess what? If you're a kid and your dad smokes weed, you're not going to fucking find him smoking weed, but you're the reason he smokes weed.

Not you particularly, but fathers in general yeah so um that doesn't mean he doesn't love you dearly that's not the point he just also needs to decompress for a minute because you're because your voice makes his ears go and it hurts even though he loves you that's how fathers are so march 2009 2009 here, this is when Lane voluntarily offers a DNA sample to investigators and they find that his DNA does not match in any of this. Really? Lane, okay? In his own house? No, no, in the blood that they found.

Okay. The blood evidence from that. That's not his blood, the shit in the sink. Like, Curtis is a possible contributor. lane is not a contributor completely completely ruled out but at the same time who's to say that that dna is in the sink came from the murderer truth yeah and not somebody that comes to their house all the time right so that's the other problem uh with that so lane said quote nine times out of ten i too believe the husband did it but i know what it's like to be the one out of ten it was so untrue oh boy so he's like you know trust me that could happen so um they got then they got blood cheek swabs and hair samples from forbes

and uh there's still not enough evidence to arrest him so that's when they did the exhumation and did all that shit um and uh they said even though the exhumation didn't yield any evidence they didn't release that to the public they just watched curtis to see what he did make him think that we have all this evidence who knows so curtis in his interview here again they talked to him one more time here and uh they tell him that his dna was mixed with mcintyre's blood and samples taken from the scene yeah so his dna is in there and he responded quote wow uh-oh which i don't know if that's good or a bad response if you didn't kill someone and they said your dna was in there you might go

i guess you'd go huh what you wouldn't go wow yeah wow is like oh i didn't know that you just you know what we found we found an unclaimed property you actually have a you know ten thousand dollars that was yeah wow okay that would be a wow yeah so then they talk about the cigarette as well in the apartment here um and uh they talk about that and uh they said that had his dna on it as well when told of this he said yeah i probably left it was there four days three days before the murder i probably i left cigarette butts there i smoked so yeah there's definitely cigarette butts i left there and that's true so that really doesn't mean anything here it's a problem with somebody who's in the house all the time just their presence in it doesn't mean anything here. It's a problem with somebody who's in the house all the time.

Just their presence in it doesn't mean that they're guilty. So he said, yeah, probably left it there then. So they said that witnesses hadn't seen him at the apartment for at least a week before the murder. He said, maybe I left it there a week. I don't know. It's possible. And they said, is it possible you left the cigarette butt there after you killed her? And he said, I don't think so.

No, dude, no. Which is a terrible answer to that question. That's the wrong answer. It's a very wrong answer. That's not good at all. The only answer worse is yes. It really is. So, yeah, probably would be a worse answer. So the detective said, what I'd like to do is go back to March 10th, 1980 that night.

And he said, I was at the town tap for a little while and then I left there. And they said, what time do you get home? And he still said two o'clock. So it's all about two o'clock. But anyway, they they let him go from that interview and then they work all their shit up and they decide with the state's attorney. Fuck it. Let's charge him so 627 a.m. on March 24th 2009 they pull

his ass over do a traffic stop and arrest him before they take him in though they take him to his house briefly which is not at all protocol to do that to take a suspect to their home first then they take him to the sheriff's office while other authorities remained at his house questioning his wife for more than

six hours in their home uh during which time they also conducted a search of the house which they say was you know okayed by debbie and everybody um he uh they found her computer and a flash drive among other items that they took as evidence and uh they found her computer and a flash drive among other items that they took as evidence and uh they yeah they're looking around trying to find anything they fucking can they asked to enter the home and like i said they let them come in and do it so now debbie six and a half hours being questioned yeah she says later on though that she did not believe she was free to go or ask authorities to leave. She thought that this was like

she thought she was in custody basically. She was told that she could be charged with homicide as a party to the crime if she didn't cooperate. She said they told her that if I cooperated they wouldn't press

any charges. Like she's up for a fucking you know a charge right now they also told her that her time with curtis was over they said quote they told me that he was never coming back and that curtis forbes died that day so you might as well tell on him as what they told her so um she was crying and all that when they're telling her about that. She didn't know what the hell was going on. And she said she was just trying to cope with it all. They told her that she wasn't responsible. The one detective said, I tried to convince her not to let Curtis Forbes manipulate her from jail.

They said she was visibly upset and appearing like a deer in the headlights. from jail. They said she was visibly upset and appearing like a deer in the headlights. They also said that she became, quote, severely traumatized, numb, confused and terrified later on. That's what she'll say happened here. She said, I was

scared and can be confused and numb based on what the officers were saying to me and the questions being asked. She said that if she had been told she was not required to answer the question, she would not have done so, and she would have asked them to leave. Did they not read her her rights?

Evidently not. Debbie Forbes also stated in her affidavit that officers told her Curtis Forbes had affairs with other women, including one woman who had an abortion at the same time she was giving birth to one of their children, and that Curtis had molested a family member when they were underage oh my god your husband's a

piece of shit so they're like your husband's terrible and he's gone anyway so why don't you just tell us everything that's wrong with him and we can put him away and make it easier for us um now she said that someone stood outside the door when she used the bathroom, which made her think she was in custody. They said the detectives deny that. She said that although detectives told her that evidence, the detectives told her the DNA was definite, a definite link. Curtis definitely did it. 100 percent DNA. You've seen it on TV.

You know what DNA is. Meanwhile, it wasn't. And they said we didn't tell her that. We just told her that there was DNA evidence. We didn't say exactly what DNA is. Meanwhile, it wasn't. And they said, we didn't tell her that. We just told her there was DNA evidence. We didn't say exactly what it was. They said that they told her also, they took their computer and hard drive and told her that they believed he was researching DNA. Again, look at my computer. I always tell Sarah, please be careful on the stairs and everywhere else around this house because they won't even give me a trial.

They'll just hang me and be like, that's all he talks about. He finally did it. Look at all the records he has. Oh, my goodness. He's got research on the perfect murder. Hundreds of stories. He writes them out. It's creepy, man.

He writes them out. Oh, my God. him out it's creepy man he writes him out oh my god um so they said listen show us any areas that might be secret that maybe evidence could be hidden so debbie showed them a crawl space area but there's nothing there no evidence there um they said that um they'd been packing boxes they were going to move apparently the when they showed up to talk to where they brought with them a dozen donuts and a 12 pack of mountain dew what it's a very weird housewarming present there what kind of donuts did they say i'm saying i'm thinking glaze i don't know why i think they're lazy just grab some glaze gotta be a cruller in there somewhere right yeah those are the best you know so curtis forbes who

is the brother or no that's curtis forbes who's the brother or no that's curtis forbes his brother still supports him though his family supports him his brother mike said we are going to stand behind my brother we think he's innocent and we think this case should be more thoroughly investigated i agree with half of that yes i don't think he's innocent but i don't think they have enough evidence to convict a man of murder either. I agree with your last sentence, but we'll move forward. That's the one. I think he's a viable suspect. Yeah, it's one of those, well, he had blood on his shirt.

Well, do you have that shirt with the blood on it that you can test for DNA? Okay, so you have a vague memory of maybe he had blood on his shirt 30 years ago. That's not enough for prison. Let's try him for child molestation and then keep working. Let's do that. Let's get him in there forestation and then keep working. Let's do that. Let's get him in there for hootie molest. Let's work on that. Who's that?

So his brother said they've got this whole town, even the whole state of Wisconsin, thinking he's guilty and that he hasn't even been charged. He couldn't get a fair trial unless they moved it out of state. The articles, too, in the papers, they were confusing. Like, if you read them, you just saw DNA a bunch of times. It looked like they matched that DNA, and it's a lock, stock, barrel, done case. And it's like, that DNA, it might be a good case, but that DNA is not the answer to it. It's questionable as fuck. It's just, oh, definitely, Christ.

Even the judge said that the judge will end up not allowing that evidence in the trial. Really? Because they say it could be dozens of people in our own town it's not like he said if it was one in a hundred thousand i'd give it to you but this is it could be literally more than one person in this courtroom that's crazy like that's fucking nuts so um they also forbes his brother here also said that um uh he didn't know Lane McIntyre well, and he didn't particularly like him either. Because they want the Forbes family saying Lane did it. So he says about Lane, quote, it was about hi and how are you, and that was about it with us.

And he said, but he has been in the McIntyre home a few times before the murder, saying that maybe he or anyone else could have been at the apartment, could have left the DNA sample. So said, who knows what the fuck? He said anybody of those could have been anybody in town that they knew after the he went and saw him in prison in jail. Mike did after they arrested Curtis here. Is there going to arrest him? He said that he gave jail authorities three pairs of white athletic socks for his brother and he says quote we'll see if he gets him let's not worry about that right now uh they set bail at 750 000 cash bond so that's rough um ronda mcintyre lane's sister said that she didn't attend that i'm sorry she attended the hearing lane couldn't attend the

bail hearing because he had to work. They wouldn't give him the day off to attend his dead wife's bail hearing, murderer's bail hearing? Suspect? Yeah, what the fuck? Holy shit. They were strict at the paper plant. Wow, that's strict.

She also said she's afraid that Forbes is going to be able to raise the $750,000 and be out on bond. Forbes approached her, she said in in 1980 inviting her to take off with him and uh she said that he became enraged when he refused the story from before yeah so she remains bitter towards toward forbes she said quote i knew he was the one that did it god knows it he's guilty of sin my god um wendy duran who's lane mcintyre's other sister said that they've struggled the whole family struggled with depression and anger over the years and she said quote i always knew

my brother didn't do it that's good yeah so um again possible contributor biological sample it's the bath it's evidence taken from the bathroom sink is what it is. Forbes has no alibi for that two hours. They do have it locked into. Not even a little bit, yeah. They have no alibi. That's a huge problem for him. And after his arrest also, there was a call that we'll talk about later. He gets arrested here, and he and Debbie call each other and talk on the phone,

and it's recorded because it's prison. And she like yells at him about where the hell. Why did you have a goddamn bloody shirt on? And she was that. So meanwhile, now she'll deny the bloody shirt in court when she testifies in this trial. She'll go, I don't know what you're talking about. There was no bloody shirt. So there's an attorney here that said that, this is Forbes' attorney, he said, there's certainly nothing here that establishes any sort of smoking gun.

He called the connection to the death thinly expressed. He said most of the information gathered against his client is a rehash of shit from 1980. The state had requested $5 million bail, which he called absurd. He requested $10,000 bail. he they the state had requested five million dollars bail which he called absurd he requested ten thousand dollars bail that's a wow well he's saying it's not like he's a danger you're saying he's gonna fuck he said he killed one person 30 years ago but they're saying and he tried to take off then and then he was packing for hawaii now so you know certainly a flight risk that they said he's a flight risk he has property he's a business owner you know all that the, they said he's a flight risk. He has property. He's a business owner.

You know, all that. And the defense says, yeah, he's got property. He's a business owner. He's got standing ties to the community. He's not going anywhere. That's a great point. All the all the reasons for him to flee are definitely still reasons for him to stay. Yeah.

They said he came back a few months after the murder. He talked to the cops. What the fuck, man? They said that he has no criminal history, strong local ties. This is ridiculous. So he doesn't get that anyway. It's a $750,000 bond that they then reduced to $450,000 later on. They said that the time of death is an estimation that places it in the morning hours, but there's no exact set time. They said, we don't know when she died.

It says probably a.m. That's what the report says. So they said the the the whole thing is the defense is going to say she died on March 10th, not on March 11th. Part of the reason for that is because Lane put March 10th on her fucking tombstone. Oh, Lane. So they're like, Lane, was that a little slip of the tongue, buddy? Because you knew when she died, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, no, we'll talk about it.

So they said, yeah, that's how that works. So they're talking about the DNA. The prosecution wants the DNA to be let in. And they say they identify Forbes as one of 98 98 a 1 in 98 chance of matching the uh whatever so figure so low that it's quote essentially meaningless is what the defense says and uh even the judge says it's usually in the millions i don't think i've ever seen 1 in 98 until this case like this is you have nothing basically is what that is like that's such a small amount of dna that they have what do they have two racks of the of the ladder what do they have nothing they

have shit um it went like this they said so there the judge said so there's dna mixed with marilyn's blood in the bathroom and her husband's dna is absolutely not in that and is there anyone else of the suspects it's a possible contributor they They said, yes, there is. And they said he was listed, Curtis Forbes, listed as a possible contributor. And they said, you know, you have to remember this is likely a pinhead-sized stain in a sink. And they go, well, that's not enough. And they say you can't use that in court. So that's how that goes. The defense is trying to portray this as it's very sad that Lane killed his wife.

We have nothing to do with this. That's their whole defense. Their attorney in the opening calls it, quote, nothing more than a tragic example of domestic violence. And that's it. I mean, that'll muddy the waters at least, right? Yeah, but you have a one in 98, but that one in 98 is somebody that's involved in her life. That's shitty, too. And the jury's never going to know about that one in 98, though.

As far as the jury goes, there's no DNA evidence whatsoever. The case is only he came home at, he says he came home at two. Debbie said he came home at four. They think maybe the murder happened in the threes. That's the only evidence in this case. That's weak. happened in the threes that's the only evidence in this case that's weak and the and the very vague admittance of that somebody didn't breathe again after i took him home from a bar it's weak which is kind of a weak case i'll be honest with you so um yeah they said that um can't let that all in

that that was a big deal the defense here says that lane mcintyre had the opportunity to kill maryland on the evening of March 10th and that a pattern of violence in the relationship, including neighbors accounts of a loud racket coming from the McIntyre apartment the night of March 10th, provide a motive for him to commit the murder. The alibi motion that he has also lists seven potential witnesses who, according to the defense, can document Forbes's movements on the night of March 10th and early morning of March 11th. So yeah, it's pretty tenuous at this point. So they said no one in court, none of the documents named, they end up looking for more DNA samples, basically. They want more to see if anybody matches better um and the investigator said it's

my hope in fact that this evidence will eliminate some people that the defense might have pointed fingers at so they just want to eliminate like the guy who drove by all these type of people okay so they said the judge authorized the dna comparisons for all eight people not nine they exclude the request for christopher mcintyre who was three months old they're pretty sure he didn't kill his mom so wow um that's the other part that would fuck that kid up he was fucking there oh absolutely he would know he was there it's a dexter situation there would totally fuck you up um so they said the testing could determine whose hair it was if they had the hair but they don't have the hair um so they said the testing could determine whose hair it was if

they had the hair but they don't have the hair uh the they said quote we have a 30 year old murder case with evidence taken 30 years ago i hope it can this can help finding the truth and who killed maryland so like i said no dna they said used up a long time ago um not gonna happen so the jury they bring in a jury from another county here and they sequester them as well yeah because this is all the gossip in wisconsin at this point in time so the uh their statements are trying to use against him um i guess the they don't they are not allowing any statements that people made uh saying that lane mcintyre had used domestic had been domestically violent against his wife okay they're not letting any of that in so they can't basically

cannot raise lane as a as an alternate suspect is the deal here which is tough from for a defense because you bring up his specter it's over that's reasonable doubt right there yeah he had a break that no one saw him in the break room at 3 a.m end of fucking story yeah sorry i mean that would be that would be the end of the trial even though he that doesn't mean he did it and i don't think he did it it just means that it gives way too much opportunity for somebody else to do it absolutely here so they said that the defense cannot use testimony of domestic violence except for incidents within days of the death so if you know the violent thing that happened that night great but it can't be from

three months before that that's how that works works so the actual trial here they said Marilyn McIntyre was savagely murdered by Curtis Ford that's how they they put it in the opening statement the jurors are sequestered like i said they came from jefferson county they bring them brung them in from jefferson man they brung them on in from jefferson um they said quote this is the judge to the jurors you are here to search for the truth it's a case where they must follow the blood when you follow the blood of this is the now i'm sorry this is the uh this is the uh um the prosecutor it's a case where you must follow the blood. When you follow the blood of Marilyn McIntyre, it bleeds to the defendant, Curtis Forbes.

The the defendant viciously and savagely beat the head of Marilyn McIntyre. He strangled her. He stuck a knife into her chest. He managed to get about as far away from the trail of blood and his guilt as his guilty conscience as he can and uh the defense said that there's no fingerprints no forensic evidence no proof that i was at that he was even at the fucking house that night at all no reports by the neighbors of shouting or noise from a physical struggle just a dog barking um he said that they said so what you have is a very circumstantial case. They said, yes, he ran to Florida days after the killing because he was scared.

They said he also came back later that summer, started a life, married Debbie, raised a family, worked, gave interviews to the police, gave hair samples to the police. They said, you know, what the fuck? police they said you know what the fuck basically um they then said neighbors heard lane and marilyn arguing that night between 10 and 11 p.m shortly before lane went to work oh lane also took out a life insurance policy the week of his wife's death yeah um and then they said quote marilyn mcintyre was murdered we believe on march 10th 1980 so that's how that works and uh the prosecutor said the defense wants to paint lane mcintyre as a poor character so that's how that goes they have the timeline they put up a big thing of the timeline about when this one saw that one tom seidlinger driving by this guy does this lights on weren't on at 12 35 but they were on at 315. Forbes arrives at four, according to Debbie,

two, according to him, all that kind of shit. Lane McIntyre left work at 701. Lane has to testify as well. Lane gets up there and he is grilled by the defense for three hours. Oh boy. Oh yeah. They asked Lane what he remembered about the day he found his wife's body. What do you remember about conversations with law enforcement authorities over the last three decades. What he remembered about the layout of the apartment that they shared. Most of the things he recalled he didn't remember. Almost all the answers were, I don't remember. They said, we heard you had an argument before you left about 1045.

And he said, quote, I don't recall. I can't remember any conversation from 30 years ago, which is not great. It's not great. Especially when it's your last conversation with your wife. Yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. It just doesn't sound great. He said, I stood in the doorway.

That's when he said, I touched Marilyn's wrist and all that. They said, well, why didn't you call the police? I didn't know what the police number was. I wasn't in a state of mind to do that, he says. So they then said that how come on her tombstone the date is March 10th and not March 11th. Is that a fuck up or what? They said, why did you order that tombstone? And he said, quote, I realized I made a mistake on her headstone for years.

That's not an answer um then they also get the co-worker in there saying he doesn't remember seeing lane in the break room at three o'clock in the morning during the 3 a.m break that's not good by the way the co-worker though comes in uh in a prison uniform because he's serving time for five criminal convictions god damn it so that doesn't look great either uh then they bring in an inmate who's in the jail which you can take that with for whatever it's worth here they said that uh maryland curtis forbes in jail called maryland's death an overkill and that uh that's the word he used when he was talking to this inmate shane thompson about the murder here um he said it was overkill the they said that quote he told when he was talking to this inmate, Shane Thompson, about the murder here. He said it was overkill.

They said that, quote, he told me he arrived at the house. They got into an argument. His friend showed up and that Forbes strangled her and stabbed her. He said it was overkill. He said Thompson said that Forbes told him a hair found on the body would match the other person and that Forbes said killing, he killed McIntyre to stop her from talking about his cheating on his girlfriend, Deborah at the time, Forbes quote,

Thompson said Forbes in his own words, quote, took care of the problem. He said, this is a direct quote, quote, he said that sometime bitches just deserve to die. He's,

he said, dead people can never get you in trouble unless you mess up sometimes bitches just deserve to die jesus who doesn't say that on a daily what the fuck kind of crazy shit is that to say so uh they get debbie on the stand she said that forbes had no marks or no blood on him the night that she saw him. That's it. Didn't know shit about him. Didn't see it. Nothing. I don't know.

They cross-examined by the prosecution. She denied it. She said Curtis showed up about 2 a.m. that morning, not 4 a.m. What is happening? And she said she didn't notice anything out of the ordinary about his clothing. Then they bring up the prison call between the two of them or the jail call where you can hear Curtis told his wife, quote, that he didn't murder her. clothing then they bring up the prison call between the two of them or the jail call where you can hear Curtis told his wife quote that he didn't murder her and her response was then where

did the bloody shirt come from explain that to me yeah now during closings DA said that Forbes was out on the prowl seeking sex after being cut off by his girlfriend he decided not to he decided to go out on the prowl to fight to try and find something to replace what he's no longer getting. After two strikes, a married friend, Rhonda Seidlinger, at a bar, the sister of a friend, Lori Dilley, he tried one last time with Marilyn McIntyre. Curtis Forbes came to the McIntyre resident like a thief in the night. And when he left, he had stolen something from the home. Something so precious. Something irreplaceable. He stole the life right out of Marilyn McIntyre resident like a thief in the night. And when he left, he had stolen something from the home, something so precious, something irreplaceable.

He stole the life right out of Marilyn McIntyre. He said that he told people that he'd gotten away with murder and blah, blah, blah. Now he, they also said action speak louder than words. Forbes actions say I'm guilty of murdering Marilyn McIntyre. Uh,

they said he took off. He said he was scared and confused blah blah blah then they said her her deborah debbie's statement back then said there was blood on there so there you go then they say she saw blood there and it's marilyn mcintyre's blood that we don't know so you shouldn't say that but that's fine um forbes did not deny there was blood on his shirt but he told her he'd explain it to her later okay now defense attorney said there's no physical evidence linking him to the scene um lane should be the murder suspect according to the defense a reasonable hypothesis

is that somebody else killed marilyn mcintyre that's what they say um they said using photos they uh they explored the apartment here, pointing out Marilyn's cleanliness and the fact that little was out of place inside the apartment. They said that crime scene photos tell you about this murder. What it tells you is that the murder should have occurred well before

3.15 a.m. in that house. So the verdict comes in. What do you think, Jimmy? Let's go either way, right? I don't like this at all. Verdict comes in. What do you think, Jimmy? Let's go either way, right? I don't like this at all. Verdict comes in. Christopher, by the way, attends court with his dad that day. They're together. He attends.

And he's there every day with his dad. They all go. Ants and the whole family's there. Jury deliberates two and a half hours on this. Oh, boy. And, yeah, that's very – which is shorter than the closing arguments were. Curtis is at the defense table there, and they say he's guilty of murder. Wow.

They call him there. Guilty there. He was found, like I said, no DNA, hair, fingerprints. It's very circumstantial. And sentencing comes up. You up you sir may fuck off life in prison for curtis oh boy life he's a certainly a fucking scumbag i don't like the guy he definitely sucks but um the reaction here though for the family they said it was justice and they felt better about it now. Is that right?

Yeah. Her brother said, I know Curtis Forbes was guilty from day one. And yeah, they said, Marilyn's at rest now. We finally got justice for Marilyn. That's what her sister said. Before the verdict was read, Marilyn's son, Christopher, said he was exhilarated to have reached the end of the trial, but it would have been extremely upsetting to not have the guilty verdict. They said after the guilty verdict, will you sleep better now finally? And he said, I will for sure.

So this is like a – it's a bomb to their whole thing here. They said, we don't have to cry about this anymore. We can finally go on with our lives. It hurts every time I relive that shock and horror. That's what Lane says. It hurts every time I relive that shock and horror. That's what Lane says. They say it was a string of miracles and hard work of law enforcement that won the guilt, that won the got the verdict.

And Lane said, quote, the truth won. Now, he now lives lane. After this, he moved to Beaver Dam, which was about 40 miles northeast of Madison. It's about a dozen miles from Columbus, so not far. And he says that the problem is since then, everything's gone wrong. His son doesn't talk to him anymore now. And they said, are you angry about everything that's happened? He said, you're darn right I'm angry.

He said, what I feel is vindication, even though people don't know the truth yet there are people who snickered and enjoyed causing me pain now they're now they're going to know i didn't do anything wrong so uh his son is you know in his 30s they're estranged for christ he's 40 now for fuck's sake and uh yeah he's goddamn our age and he said that um all the stories that had happened made it worse and it wasn't great and And Marilyn's family, though, said that it's not going to bring Marilyn back, but it's going to give us closure and some peace. It's like a big weight's been lifted off our shoulders here. This whole deal. bitter and angry and is looking for payback for those who thought he killed his wife he said quote he wants to write a book about the murder and quote the way that the way people are in a small town we already do that show lane but you're more than welcome to join us for something i don't know we'll talk to you too late but let's talk he said that he chose to stay in wisconsin because

quote innocent an innocent man doesn't run uh he says though if he sells books he chose to stay in Wisconsin because, quote, innocent, an innocent man doesn't run. He says, though, if he sells books, he hopes to retire someplace far away. He says, I want to go where where nobody knows me or I don't have to defend myself and live the rest of my days in peace. I have a right to be happy. I didn't do anything wrong. OK. And 2013, he files. He and Christopher filed a wrongful death suit

problem is the wrong the law requires the wrongful death suit be filed within two years of the date of when it's known oh no to a reasonable probability that the identity of the person alleged to commit the murder so uh that date begins when that date doesn't begin when like when there's a conviction it begins when like they're a suspect basically like 2008 i guess the formal complaint was filed march 30th 2009 so that would be where it starts they filed july 2011 11 four months too late oh no so they said sorry tough shit that was that wrongful death also in 2013 they deny the state supreme court denies hearing the appeal of curtis here yeah the attorneys with the criminal appeals project of the university of state of wisconsin argued that forbes's conviction should be overturned or he should at least get a

new trial saying that he was not able to present uh present a full defense they said that uh he should have been able to cast more suspicion on lane and um the court though said that forbes was reasonably permitted to present a defense and to keep fucking off okay now problem is they still don't talk um christopher and lane and lane christopher said quote i don't speak to my family or lane said i don't speak to my family and i don't speak to my son he says that he believes christopher lives in a world of lies he said quote we haven't moved on kurt forbes took marilyn away from me but she would have wanted her husband to love her son. And not happening now. So he's 41, 42. God damn it.

He's 42 years old, and yeah, it's a mess. Ruin the whole family. Ruin the whole family. Lane is destroyed. This was on a couple of shows. I didn't watch the shows, but it was on 48 Hours, and it was also on Oxygen. Yeah. And there was some other show, too, it was on.

So that, everybody, is Columbus, Wisconsin. Oh, my God. That's a crazy story. We don't normally do like the cold cases and go back on the evidence. So we had to do this one just because it's so weird and strange. I wish there was more evidence, man. I don't like it at all. No, I'd love to hear people's theories on this too.

If you can, you know, whatever your theories are. I mean, if you look at like all the tv shows from like what i read as synopsis and shit it is they're taking it as as soon as that guilty verdict came through 100 it was curtis no problem i don't know if i buy that i don't think it was lane either that's the other thing i don't know if it was this could be one of those things we have no fucking idea what happened yeah Yeah. It was like a brutal rape murder. This could be anybody. I guess you got to lean on one in 98, and he's involved in her life.

But shit. That's too unlucky. How many other people she knew would have been in that pool? They knew everybody in the fucking town. They better test everybody in that town. That's what i'm saying closer it's crazy i feel christopher i feel terrible for that kid as bad as you can feel for anybody yeah fucking poor kid to be able to from what i hear anyway it seems like he's doing well

in life at least enough i don't know about emotionally but he's surviving and he's not you know killing anybody or anything so that there, he's done a tremendous job. Truly. Better than I could have done with that sort of upbringing. A lot of drugs, Jesus. Oh, Christ almighty. What a poor fucking guy. We feel terrible for Christopher.

So anyway, that's Columbus, Wisconsin. That is a crazy case. If you like that case or any of the other ones, get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. Help us out a lot. It does do that. It helps drive the show up the charts also follow us on social media we're at murder small on twitter at small town pod on facebook at small town murder on instagram as well as going to shut up and give me murder.com right now for lots of things merchandise number

one all sorts of cool shit. Anything you can think of, we have some kind of saying that you like on it. So check that out. And then wear whatever you have over to a live show, goddammit. Oh, baby. August 12th, two shows at Cobb's Comedy Club in San Francisco.

Those are two different shows, too. So if you want to come out and see both shows, you're going to see two completely different cases. So that'll be fun. Next night, August the 13th, we're in Sacramento. Small Town Murder sold out, but the Crime and Sports Show for the late show has a few tickets left. So get those right now. After that, September the 10th, we're at the Pabst in Milwaukee. Oh, come see us.

This is the moment where we are jacked for this. This is the biggest venue we've ever had. Let's sell it out and let's just fucking have a great time. A big old goddamn Wisconsin party. Let's have fun. Show Minneapolis and Chicago who's boss. God damn it. And if you went to the Chicago show, because I know those cities are very close.

This will be a different case than we did in Chicago. So you can come on up to Milwaukee and see a totally new show. it'll be a lot of fun come on out and see us that is shut up and give me murder.com also get tickets for tampa and orlando later on in i believe september i think or sometime september i think september yeah since september get your tickets for those those are two shows in tampa two shows in orlando and all of that shut up and give me murder.com patreon is also cooking oh it's cooking jimmy it's at a full boil patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you can get all of the good bonus material bonus episodes and these are good bonus episodes this isn't we don't put out some crap every once in a while where we're like you know fucking around at like a coffee shop bullshitting we put out some crap every once in a while where we're like, you know, fucking around at like a coffee shop bullshitting.

We put out real episodes. Our Patreon episodes are at least an hour long a piece. Back catalog of over 100 episodes. Tons of stuff to listen to. And every month you're going to get like four new episodes at least for two crime and sports, two small town murder. You get access to everything this week, which you're going to get for your $5 or above. You're going to get the story of John Rocker, who's a baseball pitcher.

Who's one of the biggest gaping assholes who's ever walked the earth. He says dumb shit. He's a fucking asshole and he's proud of it. And he wears it like a badge of honor in a really bad way. He's not a, he's not a good asshole like us. He's a dick. We'll talk about him.

He wears a visor upside down and backwards. He's an asshole. God, and white Oakleys. And in addition to that, for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about one of the craziest cases ever in Skidmore, Missouri. It's been the most requested case literally we've ever had. I think the second day our podcast came out, I started getting requests for this fucking show. requested case literally we've ever had from i think the second day our podcast came out i started

getting requests for this fucking show right up until today when i saw a request for it in one of the groups and people were like it's patreon this week relax skidmore missouri wild case of a guy who's the town bully who everybody hates he's murdered in front of dozens of fine upstanding otherwise upstanding citizens who won't tell investigators anything that happened. And it just goes unsolved. And it's wild. That's right. Don't be.

Snitches get stitches, bitches. That's what I'm saying. So that said, yeah, do that. Patreon.com slash crime and sports. And of course, you'll get a shout out. Oh, you bet. Because we're excited that you signed up and we want to thank you for it. That said, Jimmy, hit me with those names.

Tell me the best fucking people in the world who I can thank one by one as I go to sleep at night. Jimmy, hit me with that list. This week's executive producers are Pure Romance by Krista Jolly, Jordan Bennett, Melissa Plummer, James Atkinson, and Matt Rogers. Thank you guys for everything. You're incredible. Your other producers this week are Matt Villanueva. He drove all the way from South Carolina to Atlanta last week to see us. That was incredible.

Thank you, Matt. Thank you so much. Great. Jennifer Inglis doesn't know Anne-Marie Metzler, but she saw on Facebook that she's listening while getting chemo and wants her to know that she sees her. Keep up the good fight, Anne-Marie. You're doing a great thing. Keep going.

Keep it up. Other producers continued are Marissa Oman-Hughes, Amanda Hopp, I think. Happy Hour checking in in Biloxi. Liv Seidel and Tula. Joey Pepperoni nips sticking around. Thank you, Joey. There he is. My man.

Lisa Smith. Good luck in the Mongolian Derby, whatever that is. Janice Hill, Sinead O'Bray, Jordan Gamble, Frank the South African Birdwasher, Marthy and Annie celebrating their first anniversary. Congrats. Erica Tavecchio, I believe

that's right. Peter Hodge, Candy Staples, Courtney Peasley, Jane Lelovelt, I don't know, Dan Pelch, Katie Bird, Danny Wood, Zach Brumley, Skylar Song, Michael Bateman, Sam Lee, Lorna Bernhoft, Melissa Kilmer, I think that's Val's daughter, Jen Beer, Judy with no last name. You got tombstone money. Lori Palmer, Michelle with no last name, Austin Gurr, careful with that one, Nicole Behrens, Jimim mcquinn jessica nelson morris alexander albrecht albrecht uh sean and ronnie joe whitcomb uh yep that's true ingrid hope yofus 527 daniel willis bridget elizabeth joshua skinner old school belts marybeth senlick

elena chavez tyler with no last name julia nelson kaylin ronquillo susan crowe too uh carly oh guinane guanani maybe bridget boucher or butcher who knows he's going frank alvarado pelpa groganus brumpo tungusus uh shelby parks grace brunner wow cool daniel tivnan jesse galloway orlando ellis james with no last name don jurgens that's uh two different household products casey moran scott dwyer laura didger what didger didger a lamo didger a lamo did her where what's going on right in the lamo daniella cutting painful place to get it. Eric Sajeca, I think. I don't know. Annie Furman.

Sergio Gaitan. Holly Jo. Bobby Howard. Lexi Wright. Joey Lovejoy. That's crazy. Amber Thomas. Don Parker.

Jason Fortman. Stacey Coleman. Sal G. Britt with no last name. Jonathan Everett. Alexis Dreis. Bo Mollinger. Allison Hughes.

Danny Rodriguez. David Schwantz. Riley Anderson, Miriam, His last name is Schwantz. Eddie, if your last name can be construed as penis in any language. Jimmy is going to be really excited. You have no idea. Heart or penis? Miriam Zarafi Clark Alejandra Nava. Dave Harris.

Heather Monasterio. Kiki 1977. Parker is shiny like the seal. Susan Fitzpatrick. Linda Soda Soda Ravocic. Mark Burnett. shiny like the seal susan fitzpatrick linda soda soda revocich mark burnett probably not that one bobby howard kimberly colvin dan matthews kyle magner ace finch chris jarvey janetta shunk tough one marie uh miller ellen with no last name josh wiener what dwayne shredder wiener shredder yes wow jesus josh neuro would know last name ben heard seth morrissey audrey lavoie patrick luke nope pierre luke uh stacy tucker lucy craft and he would know last name kirstie kel with no last name, Donna McCann, Casey Hagan, Matt Jonathan, Jonathan Weiss, Michael Critch, Alan Christie, Holly Mulholland, Coleman Johnston, Briar Buckholter, Christopher Goodloe, Robert Burton, Melinda Overman, Cy Kano, Jared Grady,

Reese Economonitis, Megan Richards, Cope Fresh, Jake Green, Andy Hanson, Bailey Martinson, Crystal Anderson, Logan Owens, Vanessa Sanchez, J.D. Brizantine, Shonda W., Elizabeth Addington, Rick Charm, Justin DePaul, Jillian with no last name, Susan Jones King, Lucy Williams, Jason for president, Justin Mott, Galen Walker, Tiffany with no last name, Del O'Hughes, Brie Lake, Kyle Rath, John Scharr, Kimberly Conover, Fright Bat, Sandra Garcia, J.C. Cotton, Tony Britness-Gray, Myzen Daffrin, Becca Sue, I'm Not Louise, I don't know who you are then, Tiffany Kyler, Brenda Strickland, Liz with no last name, Don Pauling, Corey Green-Newman, Anthony Taberi, Christine Mokzulski, Keaton with no last name. Luke Robison. Richard Hatley.

Stephen Smith. Michael Shepard. John Davidson. Saud Al-Dalifadif. What? Abda Tulif. Abda Tulif. I said it twice wrong.

Right and wrong. Not wrong. Matthew Hardman. Brad Ravenwood. Reagan McCartney. Alex with no last name. Cara Colley. Melissa Peck.

The Pecker. Kristen with no last name. Cara Colley. Melissa Peck. The Pecker. Kristen with no last name. Buford T. Justice. Christina Park. Adam Lawson. Christopher Losher. Juan East. Dina with no last name.

Trevor Parath. Robin Mills. Natalie with no last name. Grace Fenner. Paul Serrato. Zach Carter. Paige Bray. Damn it.

Paige Bray. Abacadabra. Steve Miller's whore wife. Rachel, up and grab ya. Princess Jo Pesci, Cheyenne Martin, Lee Kivinevi, Diane Lynn Vrooman, Thompson, Jess Serrano, Tara Hopkins, Saskatoon's shwarma man, Ben with no last name, Megan McLaren, Joe Lorelei. Both of those would know last name. Alex Greenfield. Dirty Omelet. That sounds gross. Jane Bradley.

Gabriel Miller. Tim Lackey. Lackey. Austin Carrillo. Josiah Steffi. Taylor Grishu. Gooshru. There's no R in that.

Gooshu. Jen would know last name. Karen Malinowski. J. Michael Moore. Dennis C. Arias. Amanda Parks. Amy Davis. Gage Blick, James, nope, that's Joe Meesey, Emma Seigel, Reamer, Kiel, K with a J, Kiel?

Wow. Land wear? I don't know. But listen, you guys and all of our patrons, thank you so much. Thank you so much, everybody. From the bottom of our hearts, honestly, can't thank you enough for what you do for us. And we'll keep trying to pump it out, and we hope you keep trying to listen to it. And we'll be very happy over here.

You want to follow us on social media? Very easy to do that. You can just go to shutupandgivememurder.com. There's links to everybody's social media. Or just Google search Small Town Murder Podcast Host. You'll find us. We're there. Oh, my goodness.

Come back next week. Come back each and every week. Crazy shit. Also, come back Fridays for the Express and, God damn it, be here Tuesdays for Crime and Sports as well. That said, until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today.

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