Small Town Murder - #310 - The Bloodbath Brothers - Pulaski, Tennessee

Episode Date: August 25, 2022

This week, in Pulaski, Tennessee, twin brothers, who have been what can only be described as "strange", from a young age, end up involved in a life of crime. Their house becomes a central gathering point, and is called "The Spahn Ranch of Tennessee", as their makeshift Manson clan comes & goes. The house also becomes a center for vicious & bloody murder, including bathtub dismemberments, and backyard cremations. They get away with this, several times, until it all comes crumbling down. The scariest thing is... will they ever get out of prison??Along the way, we find out that southern Tennessee REALLY likes SunDrop soda, that rubber burns at an apparently very high temperature, and that the desire to kill, in awful ways seems to be shared by twins!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Pulaski, Tennessee, the carnage begins to add up as people keep going to a certain house to party, but they never come back alive, ending up dead in horrible and brutal ways.

Welcome to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy, yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us on another crazy, wild, insane edition of Small Town Murder. And this is going to be one of those ones. It's going to be a reference point episode. I can tell already. As I'm doing it, I'm like,

oh boy, we're going to hear about this for a couple of years. Remember that episode with this? Oh my goodness. It's wild stuff so buckle up everybody quickly before we get into that thank you for everything we're recording this just after we came back from sacramento and san francisco doing live shows thank you to northern california terrific crowds amazing thank you everybody honestly for for all that you've done for us really good i mean sacramento that building is a smaller venue for what we usually do. It's like 450 people. And the Shut Up and Give Me Murder Challenge, they're at the top of the heat, man.

They're really, that was loud. So Milwaukee, you're up next. And speaking of that, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com right now. Get your tickets for Milwaukee the Paps. They're selling out. We're almost done. So get in there right now. Don't wait.

We're not sure. They'll probably be sold out on the night of the show. So get in there and we're going to have a ball that is September 10th. And then as well, get your tickets to the 23rd and 24th of September in Tampa and Orlando. Two shows in each place at the Improvs. Get those tickets right now. We're going to Florida.

So you be there as well. Also get all your merchandise and everything like that. Patreon is where you want to be as well. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you get all the bonus stuff. And you're going to get all the bonus stuff. First of all, the entire back catalog, of course, you're going to get immediately upon being a patron and you're going to get new episodes every other week this week which you're going to get and you're going to get one for crime and sports one for small town murder you get access to it all crime crime and sports we're

going to talk about some weird sports kind of sex scandals first we're going to talk about brett farve and his dick pics yeah and then there's just a few other weird ones of a female golfer who forced her male caddy allegedly to impregnate her at risk of his job if he didn't. And things seems that's not good. So it seems slightly illegal, at least immoral, I would say. So, you know, I'm not making judgments, but whatever. And a couple other ones there. And then for small town murder, we're going to talk about two of the most terrible people ever, Leonard Lake and Charles Ng.

And a lot of their own words. Leonard Lake's diaries, Charles Ng's testimony, things like that. Let's see what these idiots have to say about themselves. Yikes. Because that's so telling often. So we'll get all of that. And you'll get a shout out at the end of the show, of course, where Jimmy will mispronounce your name terribly while wanting with his whole heart to get it correct. That is patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of that and um as well here the disclaimer that's what we need disclaimer this is a comedy

show yeah we're comedians we're gonna tell a crazy story none of it's made up unfortunately we wish it was fake but it's not it's all real uh when nothing's made up for comic effect what we do here there's plenty to make fun of. There's murderers. I like to make fun of a murderer. They've screwed up big time. Who else can you make fun of if you can't make fun of a murderer? If some police force lets some murderer go, even though it's right under their nose for five years,

you make fun of that. You make fun of small towns because we're all from someplace terrible. But what we don't do is we never make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why is that, James? Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. And that's how that works. So if that sounds good to you, man, are you going to hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never go together, I don't know.

Maybe we're not for you. But maybe we are. Either way, no bitching afterwards. There you go. That said, I think it's time to sit back. Let's clear the lungs, Jimmy, and everybody else out there, wherever you are, in your car, and hopefully a semi-private environment so you don't scare the shit out of people. Time to shout.

Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, Jimmy. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah, we shall. Let's do this, Jimmy. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah, we shall. What do you say? Let's do it. We are going to Tennessee.

Mmm. Oh, yeah. Smoky mountains. Smoky mountains. Going down to Pulaski, Tennessee, baby. Is it with an I or a Y? With an I. Pulaski.

Really? Yeah. It's Polish, apparently. Really? It's Polish. P-U-L-A-S? Yeah. Pulaski. Yeah. P-U-L-A-S-K-I. Pulaski, apparently. Really? It's Polish. P-U-L-A-S? Yeah, Pulaski.

P-U-L-A-S-K-I. Pulaski, Tennessee. It's in the central part of Tennessee, but down at the southern border by the Alabama border down there. Yeah, it's deep. This is some deep Tennessee business here. This isn't like right outside of Nashville. No, no, no, no, no. Not even close to that here it's about an hour 15 minutes to nashville and about three hours and 50 minutes to memphis

and about three hours and 40 minutes to our last episode which was in telico plains tennessee that was dirty desires in the backwoods was the name of that one man tennessee is always just filthy it's one it's one of those states. Every time we do a case there, it's a real filthy one. I don't know why that is. It certainly is. Certain states have a little more stank on their murders. Tennessee, congratulations. Your murders

are some of the stankiest. They don't discriminate. They rub a little stank on everything they do. Everything just is a little bit more. It's a rub like barbecue. It's great. Yeah.

It's fantastic, which they also do well there. Yeah. This is in Giles County, which I'm sure is Giles County down there. I'm not sure. Area code 931. They don't pronounce the G. Yeah, it's just Iles County. The motto here, a treasure of Giles County, Tennessee.

A treasure. A treasure of it. This is the treasure, apparently. History here. It's all a lot of Civil War stuff went on here. A lot of Civil War fighting and things like that. But we don't have a ton of time for history. And nobody usually cares about that anyway.

We have so much in reviews and things to do that it's it's we're going to push the history aside for a minute a lot of civil war stuff um really delve into and explain the civil war to me oh well yeah we'll get into it from the start uh we'll get into the myth of the lost cause the whole deal um it's going to be fun um the the clan really kind of bubbled in this area at the time yeah yeah, yeah. This was a very fertile grounds right after the Civil War. A real cauldron with a K. Exactly. A KK cauldron.

So reviews of this town. We'll get right to that. Here we go. Five stars. They love it, apparently. I have grown up in Pulaski. It has really grown greatly since I was little. There are lots of new businesses popping up everywhere.

It's a great small town that is incredibly friendly and inviting. I would recommend Pulaski, Tennessee to anyone. Okay. Anyone, even if you, this isn't for you. Even me? Probably not me, right? Here's four stars. It's a small and quaint town.

It's a great place for families to settle down. There isn't a lot to do entertainment-wise, but it's a great place for families to settle down. There isn't a lot to do entertainment-wise, but it's only a short drive from several large cities. The scenery is gorgeous. The town has a rich history that's worth exploring. There are several locally owned small businesses as well as larger chain stores and restaurants. You just described everywhere on earth. Good job.

An incredible feeling of community and family throughout the town and the other towns in the county my only drawback is that as teenagers grow older they have a hard time finding fun things to do other than getting into trouble well yeah but there are efforts being made to provide more entertainment for people of all ages so that shouldn't be a problem much longer i'm sure it's right around the corner. It's going to become a... Yeah, that's one thing that teenagers historically have thrived for is things that are not things that get them in trouble. Yeah. Things set up by adults to keep them out of trouble. They usually love that.

That's our favorite. That's the favorite. Jesus. Here's three stars. There is nothing to do or see. Only drug stores and tobacco outlets get built. Well, maybe that's what they're building for the kids, a nice tobacco outlet for them to all hang out at. And then a drugstore, which they're going to need in a little while.

That sounds like less than three stars, doesn't it, by the way? There was nothing positive. That's not an average. Here's two stars. This person's going to come strong and honest here. I don't like much about Pulaski at all. All right. Well, that's a good way to start it.

That's two stars. It's too small for my liking. And the only thing people do in this town is start drama. Oh, these drama starting son bitches. I'll tell you what. I would like to see better police officers in charge. Most of them do nothing here. Okay.

That's not like there's a lot to do, though, either. How much there is to do. It's a tiny town. How much crime is happening? Yeah. Here's one star. There we go. This is the complaints here.

The town loses loads of money per year. People take the money they make at work and spend it in the bigger cities nearby because there's absolutely nothing to do here yeah that's how it works generally yeah they pay their taxes and they do that sort of thing at home though that's that's how you make money yeah and um yeah um this town would be a better idea this town would be ideal ideal they're trying to say they left the l off that's why for for a retirement community the most dangerous crime being committed here are duis and not paying child support the police here never leave the house hoping it's the last time they will see their family so apparently it's pretty safe and there's a lot of kind of it's a mayberry situation with the police force sit tight as long as uh deadbeat fathers don't pay child support uh you're about

to have worse criminals that's the thing and we'll tell you what the crime is by the way i don't want to take that from a review so uh people of this town uh 7 524 people in this area so it's a decent sized town and it's but it's grown a lot it was a lot smaller than that and especially we're going to talk about it in the 80s it was way smaller this whole area um few more females and males about average median age is about average you know 38 here um there's there's a college i guess nearby so the 18 to 20 is above average like that age group college down there yeah there's a college nearby i don't know what it's for i don't know if it's for like uh pickling things in jars or some barber college yeah tomato pickle tomato you or something i don't know what it is down there but uh so there's like less married people obviously because of the you know younger people and things like that race of this town 66 white 24.1 black point 0.7 asian

so trying hard to get it we're going to reach one percent here that's not that's 0.7 that's it's not a lot it's usually five percent in the rest of the country 3.8 hispanic which is usually like 18 so yeah it's it's black it's white and black basically uh religion in this town though there's a lot of that 66.6 percent religious isn't that beautiful 666 percent religious that's great it's high down here don't convert anybody well don't anybody walk away we need it right there right there forever as you might have guessed the highest one is baptist here 36 of the people here are baptist baptists are as we know the catholics of the south yes they are and there's a lot of them here so there you go last election in this

county 25 of the people voted democratic 74.1 republican 0.9 independent9% independent. It's a rural place, and it's a pretty, you know, they're voting one way. The economy here, it's about average for unemployment rate, but the median household income is very low. And a lot of that, too, there's a lot of older people and a lot of super young people, so that kind of averages that out. But the median household income here, $29,019, which is $29,019. Very low. Usually about $54,000 a year in the rest of the country. The cost of living is also low, $100,000 being the average here. It's about $77,000.

Housing is low, though. The median home cost here, $134,800, which is... Nobody has any money, so it doesn't matter. That's the problem. It doesn't matter. But if you have the money and you matter, damn it, we are going to send you to Pulaski, Tennessee with the Pulaski, Tennessee Real Estate Report. Real Estate Report.

Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for $686. So that's about half the national average. It's affordable, yeah. Here is a two-bedroom, one-bath, 864-square-foot house that looks like it looks like it's it's like almost sentient like it looks like the the foliage has kind of joined with the house so someday like the roof will be able to talk to you and like the vines will make it pop open so it talks to you yeah like like in a horror movie like a possessed house i feel like it's kathleen turn today. Yeah. You're going to have to live with the with the wildlife in there. I feel like in the house, it's not very good here. Seventy five thousand dollars for this.

Oh, yeah. It's not great, though. Here's one five bedroom, three bath, three thousand three hundred seventy square feet. It's a nice house. Yeah. Nice house built in nineteen hundreds or nineteen hundred. Nice house. Yeah, nice house. Built in 1900. It looks like it was built in 1900, decorated in 1912, and then someone put plastic wrap around it for the last 110 years, and then they're going to show it to you now. I kind of want it. to, if you were to have a retreat, say, let's say a retreat for like, just for old ladies to recharge their batteries.

Just for like, people 85 and over named like Martha and Alice. You would put them in this house so they'd feel comfortable. A lot of lace. It's a real golden girls getaway. They're still out there. This is like, we're done with those. Those golden girls are hussies. They're out

looking for men and eating cheesecake. This is worse than Cocoon. All their husbands have died long ago. They're like 93 and they're like, Lord, take me please. And then you put them here so they can sew and cross stitch together. It's kind of sad. $429,000 for this house though.

It's not that terrible for what it is. It's affordable. Here's a four bedroom three bath, 4,162 square foot, built in 1920. It's a very weird, weird room. There's a house. There's rooms that are all horse stuff, just horses and shit, pictures of horses, things of that nature. There's a lot of barn and stables. There's multiple acres.

It's one of those places. It's mainly for the yard and for the acreage and for the horse stuff. But it's a 4,000 square foot house. It's a big house too. $1,200,000 for that though. Worth it. You gotta be a horse person though, I think, for that to work for you. Now things to do, and this is

what's amazing here. Things to do. The Sundrop Festival. What the fuck does that mean sundrop is a citrus soda it's like knockoff mountain dew oh it's like if you mix mountain dew and sprite together you get sundrop soda okay which is some local i don't even know it and i like a citrus soda so that tells you a lot about what the fuck Sundrop is here. It's from Missouri, so I don't know why the hell that's where the soda is. It's not even local.

It's not like they bottle it here. That's the thing. I'm like, oh, there must be the bottling plants nearby, and they've provided jobs for 50 years. Nope, none of that shit. It's not even here. They're just big fans. Big fans.

We love that soda. Where's that? You know what we should all we all like sundrop right let's have a festival it used to be the summer solstice soul like yeah soul right now it's the sundrop fest i guess they sponsor it and it's a full day of events soul s-o-u-l or like so well like this no no no s-o-l s-o-U-L, or like S-O-L like the sun? No, no, no, S-O-L, S-O-U-L. Okay. It's your soul, the solstice, yeah.

It'll be, it's on June 11th, these things happen. This thing happens apparently. Some other thing, yeah. They said, quote, with so many new and returning events and attractions, we will literally have something for everyone. So go ahead and mark your calendars and be part of the fun. Yeah. We're going to do do it some of the favorites here the milk drop what is what is that i don't know what that is and i don't like the sound of it it sounds like people are going to be soaked in milk in the july southern tennessee heat or the june southern tennessee heat and that's gonna stink oh god who's that for?

They quote unquote literally have something for who the fuck was looking for that. Who's looking for that? It's well, the milk's provided by Flowers Creamery. So there's that. Good for you. Give them a plug. Faith over facts basketball competitions. Well, that says it all right there.

You just said it all. I don't even have to say a word. I don't have to say a word i don't have to say a word i don't even there you go um oh god kids corner that's the name that's their chosen name not mine kids corner sponsored by pes and the giles county public library the pace car club cruise in at kitchen 218 and blah blah blah with the event changing to celebrate giles decades-long love affair with sundrop what is going on that's what it is they just explain it the county they just love this soda and it's their official county drink this is

welcome to the orlando festival uh this is the this is the st louis cardinals festival in orlando florida that makes no sense why are we doing this what is happening i don't understand it we're going elk hunting in south carolina that's what this is it doesn't you're not going to find any well what is up why i don't get it. So anyway, the Bank of Frankenwing will sponsor the Sundrop Cake Dessert Contest. Oh, boy. Rumors that festival attendees may be able to once again. Oh, no. Don't do it.

Oh, God. It's in quotes, Jimmy. Judge the babies. Drop it like it's hot. Oh, God. I'm going to cry. I'm going to cry. I'm going to cry. Entertainers for the Sun Drop Festival will include the PPAC Dancers.

What is that? Terrific. I don't know. They dress like bottles of soda. I have no idea. And musicians Ben Chapman, Casey Tindall, and Chris Bandy. Nobody's heard of any of them. So that's excellent.

I can't wait for that. I'm there for Casey Tindall, of course. That's my favorite. So yeah, they come back. They're planning it the whole time. And the organizer of the festival said, quote, they don't call this sundrop country for nothing. Well, what do they call it, then?

Fantastic, guys. Terrific. I don't know what to tell country for nothing. Well, what do they call it? Fantastic, guys. Terrific. I don't know what to tell you. I'm so confused. Does everybody just wander around going, what the fuck is this? My mind is blown. The next one's even weirder, okay? It's the Here's the Beef Fest.

Okay. Which I'm like, awesome. This is a county initiative to celebrate a high state rank in beef production has quickly grown into a regional and state celebration of agriculture. Oh, boy. Here we go. Let's see. We're excited. We're very excited to take our here's the beef brand across our great state for Tennessee State Beef Festival. Here's the events.

Tuesday, Carnival opens. Then they have family feud live not with steve harvey or anything they just have some people up there um the then they have a deer head contest what i i've never heard of that is that for taxidermy is that for whoever looks the most like a deer? I have no idea. Well, Frank looks like a deer. I mean, shit, his hair looks like antlers and he's ugly as sin. Oh, boy. Then there is, I couldn't make this up, cow pie bingo.

Yeah, of course. So that's playing bingo with shit. So that's excellent. How do you, I would say tic-tac-toe but how do you bingo well you put the instead of marking your spot you throw shit on it oh god that's so gross that's gross and then after that this sounds really gross the sheep show which sounds like that's they do that after dark because people are whacking it to show look at that one look at him oh he knows what he's doing he knows he knows what he's doing

right now i'll tell you something he knows it um play on word with peep shows right i apparently i think it's a sheep peep show wednesday then we have uh family faith night uh then there's the live bands playing then professional sport fisherman clay dyer makes an appearance is he gonna is he gonna fish is it does it move to the pond then and he's just out there pulling fucking small mouth bass out or what are we doing here what's the who the fuck is he in here what's he have to do with anything this festival sucks you just go meet them. Thursday, backyard burger contest. Okay, that's not bad. That sounds good. I'm into that.

Then there's a circus. Fuck that. I see clowns. Showstopper cattle show. They're going to be whacking it all sorts of times to that. A bluegrass showcase. I assume that's music. Friday, carnival, beef prepping and cooking demonstrations.

Okay. An open demolition derby. Apparently that sounds awesome. You can just take anything in there and bash demonstrations. Okay. An open demolition derby. Apparently that sounds awesome. You can just take anything in there and bash some shit up. Bring your escort. Then the finals of Family Feud because, you know. Because we've qualified all weekend. It was just the prelims and the semis earlier.

Now we're into the finals. This is crazy. Then finally, Saturday, rounding it all out, baby. The touch a truck event. What is that? You just touch a truck, apparently. Just walk over baby, the Touch a Truck event. What is that? You just touch a truck, apparently. Just walk over and rub it? Just rub it.

I know they have those kind of things for little kids where they'll go, like, they'll put a bunch of tractors so little kids can look at the tractors. They can just touch it? Yeah, they can look around. The Sensory-Friendly Carnival and Touch a Truck, it's called, full. Yeah, so you can go rub tires and shit. Yeah, look at that. Then there's the 4-h

poultry show in case the sheep or the beef aren't up to your whacking standards then there's the cowboy horse show i assume they're gonna do tricks of riding and stuff then it's chickens everything else didn't get you what are we rounded out with team demolition derby oh now we got teams teams now so that's gonna be confusing as balls but that sounds like a mash of destruction and i'm there for it that sounds great well i'm eating a burger sounds wonderful crime rate in this town what we're interested in obviously property crime almost double the national average fuck a lot of property crime and um violent crime murder rape, and of course, assault.

The Mount Rushmore of crime is about a third high as well. Well, yeah. I mean. What the fuck is happening in this town? Well, you got to qualify for that demolition derby all year long. Oh, that's probably most of the violent crime is just the demolition derby. That said, holy shit, let's talk about some murder. Oh, boy.

Wow. Jimmy, your ears are going to be blown back on this one this is uh this is wild buckle up everybody let's talk about a couple of people first of all let's start out with uh hugh peter bondurant jr oh oh actually he's the third i apologize jesus as we know from crime sports, any juniors is never a good sign for criminal behavior. And when you get to the third, anything's possible. A junior's junior is dangerous. It's a double junior is bad stuff. So now he's born April 3rd, 1955.

Also born April 3rd, 1955 is his brother, Pat. That is when because they are twins absolutely uh they're absolutely twins um now at 90 of the reports say they're identical twins there's a couple reports that say they're fraternal twins if they're not identical twins which i'm 90 sure they are because that's the most of the reports they're pretty fucking identical anyway they look you can't tell them apart honestly like from a if you up close maybe but from a distance they're yeah they're both large men very large heavy set guys too that is you can't when you got twins you can't junior or the third one of them because then you're like this is my favorite and that's pat and that one call him pat that's fine i mean i'll name him after like an uncle or something but not from after me

god damn it the first one that pops out is after me and you know what don't even give me the first one give me the best looking one that's my third yeah the other one that's fucking pat this one's got some good strong legs on him i feel like he might be an offensive lineman i'm gonna name him up so they're they're twins and um their parents are they have like a good family they're not a lot of our stories our origin stories are these horrible things and somebody was in like a military prison for insanity then they come home and have five kids and you, cut three of their heads off and make the other three, you know, line them up on the shelves.

And we've had weird stories. And stitch them all together in some sick. Well, you're going to make a centerpiece for Thanksgiving. That's what that's for, Jimmy. I mean, come on. What the fuck are we doing here? Come on. You've got to serve the turkey and something.

So they're both uh parents both end up being military contractors here so their parents were born or uh married in january of 1953 the um he is uh the her mom's name is polly which i just think is nice and then of course you is the father which which is his junior there. Yeah, so they got married and everything was all nice. And they have a normal family. The twins have two other siblings, which is four kids all together.

They have another brother and a sister. The parents are together. They're upstanding. Mom works for, I've never heard of this exact thing, but maybe back then the classifications of things were different, but the Department of the Army. Oh. I don't know.

She's like a civilian contractor in the military type of deal. Department of the Army. The Department of the Army. Yeah. They took them. Both the parents did that, so they had a lot of assignments within the Army, and they would travel a lot as a family because they got moved around all the time. By the late 1960s, they settle in Elkton, Tennessee. Oh.

Elk like the animal, like a ton of elk. Shit ton of elk, Tennessee. Yeah. So at that time, the father had got a job at the Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama. And their mother was working as a teacher also in addition to an army contractor. So there you go. Now, they have some, the parents, the twins can kind of do no wrong with the parents. And you'll see it.

It goes all the way to the bitter end where you're like, lady, holy shit, Polly. Holy fuck, Polly. Discipline these fucks. Not that. Just get your head out of your ass at this point. But when they were kids, any criticism of them would be rejected teachers neighbors hey your twins are doing this hey the kids are doing this no you leave them alone yeah you leave them alone and she'd hug their fat heads that's how you do it yeah one on each hip there you go you leave leave these kids alone and they're very heavy setyset from an early age, these kids, too.

And we're talking very, like when they're fully grown, they're 350 pounds, both of them. Is that right? Yeah, they both look like, you know what they look like? They remind me of, remember Drop Dead Gorgeous? You didn't see Drop Dead Gorgeous? No. Really? Yeah. Wow, you should see that it's fucking

phenomenal holy shit it's amazing it's hilarious it's a goddamn it's a spoof it's of you know it's if you like christopher guest shit it's just like that it's great so i don't know who he is but i imagine uh he makes good things yeah you don't know wow okay he's like best in show and uh that was his he made that one yeah yeah fuck i love that movie and you know he was in spinal tap and all that he's a he's the fucking yeah he's the spoof guy that does i don't know i don't know or not to spoof mockumentary it's mockumentary type thing so anyway i'm not good at retaining faces and names i'm really bad at it i can keep a name, but not a face. For everyone else out there,

he's the guy, they look like the two brothers in Drop Dead Gorgeous where the older brother who tells his younger brother all the time, close up shop there, close up shop. Zip his pants up. They look like that guy,

the older of the two brothers from the paint store there. Do they look like Bobo and Little Debo from Nothing But Trouble? I mean, kind of, no. They look like fatter, scummier versions of Taggart from Beverly Hills Cop. Jesus Christ. Like, put 100 pounds on Taggart and have him sit in a cabin for three years, and that's what he'd look like.

You know what I mean? That's the best way I can. I know you know who Taggart is. I'm like, what's a reference Jimmy's you know what i mean that's the best way i can i know you know who taggart is i'm like what's a reference jimmy's definitely gonna know it's taggart that's a guy who you can just see always with his zipper down too yeah zipper down damn it again yeah he hates being in a suit at work he just hates it so in may of 1980 near anaheim california dorothy jane scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again.

Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group.

Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister

than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Now, their uncle and their first cousin by marriage, who is the same person, by the way. Uncle and first cousin by marriage um who is the same person by the way say say uncle and first

cousin by marriage oh boy i don't know how that works but i'm not even gonna my head's gonna hurt if i get into the relations here so either way he talks about how the parents would like never um never discipline the kids if they ever got in trouble, whatever the kids said happened, that's what she would take. She would take that as gospel and tell people, you stop picking on my boys. Wow.

Period. Which in the 60s was weird. In the 60s, your neighbors were allowed to hit your kids. Right, right. Like if your kid was cutting up at a neighbor's house,

you would be like, you gave him a good whack, right? All right, good. Lucky he didn't beat you worse. Good. You tell him to come home, I'm going to hit him harder. That's what people used to do back then. There was no.

You ever watch Mad Men? It's just make me a drink and then I'm going to hit you and then go to bed with no dinner. That's all it is. So they do all of that. So obviously there's an issue. all of that and um they're so obviously there's a there's an issue the father drank heavily at times is what it was and the twins could get away with anything because they would just cry to their mom they cried to their mom and polly would defend them and dad didn't really give a shit and that's how it worked so that was the end of it um they said the father would have uh quote temper fits

with the children when they were with the twins when they were children. But didn't really hit them, though. There was no physical abuse of the twins at all. Just manifested frustration. Yell at them, yeah. I mean, there's these two twins that are being so bad, and no matter what you do, their mother will say it's fine. So it's like you would get angry, I would think, too.

So they would yell at them. By the time they got older, when they saw them do things wrong in the house that they couldn't talk their way out of. They would yell at them and they said curse at them a lot and a lot of ridiculing them as well. So it became just a lot of kind of a verbal abuse thing, but nothing compared to what we normally hear about. It's pretty light. It's really not much. So they were, they had a hard time establishing relationships with other kids because number one, as their family put it,

like the way, they were overweight and the other kids picked on them a lot. Sure. There was no tolerance for that back in the day. That was, hey, fat fuck. There was no,

especially with boys, it was just, hey, that's fucking, your name is Lardass. That's what your friends call you. Those are your friends too. Yeah. You know? I mean, especially with boys, it was just, hey, that's fucking, your name is Lardass. That's what your friends call you. Those are your friends, too. Yeah. You know?

I mean, do the truffle shuffle. Come on, fat ass. That was their buddies in Goonies, you know? That's just how merciless. We had two big twins at our high school. Everyone called them the Buffalo twins. That's what I mean. Just brutal, man.

I knew a fat kid that wore a uh a purple sweatsuit in the third grade to school he was grimace until the 12th grade yeah you can't do that why would he do that it's not it was like eight his mother put him in it sent him to school mom do that and the next thing you know he was grimace till the 12th grade yo grimace everybody called him grim they'd call him grimace that was his fucking name he put that kid in jeans and a white shirt every day god damn it 90 of the people calling him grimace didn't even know why the fuck they called him grimace they just figured he was fat and jolly but like they didn't understand that there was like four people that knew him in the third grade

that kept this horrible thing going and yeah not great god damnace poor grimace grimace was a dick though he before before he was grimace he was like one of these kids who was like he was like uh he would pick on kids in like the first and second grade and then he just got kind of fat and then everybody was like oh fuck you i'm not afraid of you anymore and then he became grimace and then he was just a really nice kid from then on because he didn't want to be picked on. So he was a nice guy. And then I felt terrible for him. So either way.

The Buffalo Twins wore cowboy boots to school once. And that was all it took. Oh, my God. It was never anything but Buffalo Twins ever again. Forever. That is fucking. God, why? We're terrible.

Monsters. No one even thought about it yeah in arizona i went to school for a few months in arizona and there was a kid that i went for the end of one year in the beginning of another and a kid wore like um public enemy shirts and nwa shirts at the end of the year and then he came in the next year which is like i don't know what three months later 56 days later he came back to school and was in a full cowboy i mean full cowboy outfit with a hat and a buckle and the things and we just called him horse breaker because he was fat so that's what people call i didn't call him that wasn't my name but somebody started calling him horse breaker what's happening horse breaker and i mean he was trying to have a new personality and it failed

he wasn't even like in the doors of school fully someone was like yo you horse breaking motherfucker look at you gonna break those bitches in half and he was like oh deflated over it's bad imagine suck being a kid and everybody like you you get dressed in whatever you want to wear and everybody you look in the mirror and you go oh today's gonna be the day i just make all the friends i'm gonna impress them all yeah because that's what you want as a kid kicked in the dick yeah he probably he in his mind did he imagined he opened the doors like they were saloon doors and everyone's gonna go oh shit there's a new sheriff in town and they were like hey how

did your fat ass get on a horse horse break you broke its back hey horse breaker done in 15 seconds he had a nickname he didn't even get to his locker yet it was fucking terrible i felt terrible for nice kid just needed an uh you know an identity now um there is a uh um there's a guy a neighbor here that says at one point he went home and uh uh had to had to go to the twins house for to talk to the parents here and basically they because people would pick on them, they stuck together. And it turns out two really big guys can beat the shit out of most people if they work together. So they became very formidable after a while. And they were nobody to pick on after a while because you pick on one and they're both going to be kicking your ass in no time. That's just the way it was.

You pick on one, you pick on the other. But they ended up, of course, kind of getting in with the wrong crowd because they wanted to be cool and uh they got into drugs as we'll talk about and they start selling drugs at a pretty young age too as we'll get into these two oh yeah yeah these two these two kind of make their own little weird manson family essentially yeah like a so like a strange hillbilly manson family based around based no in, in the eighties. Wow. We'll, we'll talk about it. This is when they're in their thirties later on,

just like Charles Manson. They have like these previous lives and then come back in their thirties and start hanging out with people in their, you know, younger, lower twenties, mid twenties. And,

um, you know, with drugs, that's what it is. They're getting everybody in and they have a plethora too of everything. This isn't like, this isn't like Manson with some fucking tabs of acid in the desert. They're like, we have any drugs you want.

Come hang out at our little pleasure palace, which is a rundown farmhouse. But still, we'll get into it. So this is what this guy says. He says, quote, their daddy answered the door, and I told him why I was there. And he said their daddy was a rough sort. He didn't mess around. He called Pat and Pete out where we just put it to them straight. Of course, they denied it at first,

but I think it was Pat that said something like he was just with Pete and that Pete had done it. I told them that all I wanted was my gun back and asked them where it was because they were little kids and they stole a gun, or teenagers and they stole some guy's gun. He said they finally owned up to it, that they gave it to some guy and he buried it in his yard. There was a hammer lying on the railing next to where their daddy was standing. And old man Bondurant looked over at the hammer and said, quote, I ought to take this and knock your brains out.

I didn't raise you to steal. He told his son that. Yeah. He made him go get the gun and give it back to me. And he told him that he was going to come to my and he told me that he was that they was going to come to my store and work off what they couldn't replace. I told him that that wasn't necessary. I just wanted my gun back. But he wouldn't have nothing but that. He wouldn't have nothing but that they'd come by the store every day after school and work. So he stole from somebody. But they stole a gun and gave it to somebody? They didn't even sell it to somebody?

And that person just buried it? What a shit caper. They took it to a guy's house and buried it in the yard. So they're like, hey, we'll bury it until the heat dies down. But this guy just came to his house and was like, I know you motherfuckers took it. And then when dad says I ought to knock your brains out with a hammer, you go dig it up quick. They're lucky they didn't sell it off.

So they're weird kids, though. They really are. They both weigh more than 250 pounds by the time they're in the seventh grade. My goodness. So they're big kids. They're growing fast. I mean, that's big for the seventh. Seventh grade seventh grade. My goodness. So they're big kids. They're growing fast. I mean, that's big for the seventh. Seventh grade is 12.

That's pretty big. It's a pretty big 12-year-old. That's a lot of 12-year-olds. And they liked people to think they were a little odd and a little off and kind of people to be a little on edge around them. They liked to show off they're kind of eccentric and we're not like everybody else type of thing is that they needed a personality. And rather than here's your here's your choices.

Hey, fat fuck or whatever you or whatever you procure. So you got to procure something stronger than everybody else just calling you fat ass. That's literally what it is. So they had to do that. And I don't blame them. What's a big guy nickname that's embraced, though? You know what I mean? Other than big or...

Yeah, big or bear or some shit. But even that's got different connotations now. But back in the day, you'd call somebody like an ox or bear or some animal. I don't know. It'd always be some fat animal then. It's a great thanks. Thanks a lot. So I'm not even a fat human now.

Now I'm a fat animal. Bull? That was Richard Maul's name on Night Court. That's a good one. Yeah. That's a big guy, but not a fat guy. You know what I mean? That's not a big, I don't know, either way.

So Pete, the way their personalities break down, Pete, he's the one who's the third here. He's the favored son, obviously. He is the outgoing one. He's kind of more gregarious he likes to tell people how smart he is a lot oh he's that type of guy who likes to they both read a lot they always have a paperback book on him always reading whether it was on the bus or no matter what they were doing they were both always reading a book always reading and they like to try to act like act like no one else around here is reading a book all the time. We're reading a book. We're different.

We're weird. We do this. We do that. You don't know where we're coming from. Look at how different we are. Trying to get a personality, which is understandable. But Pete's the dominant twin. He's the dominant twin.

Pat's a little bit quieter. Pat's more of a follower toward Pete. He's the dominant twin. Pat's a little bit quieter. Pat's more of a follower toward Pete. He's not a third. Daddy gave him the name. So it's the way it's supposed to be. It's nature now. Clearly he's the leader. Now, they did some things as a kid that are interesting, let's just say.

And they had no problem telling people about the crazy shit that they did because they wanted people to think that they were fucking nuts because that was a personality but they actually did crazy shit at the same time number one um they would this is terrible by the way brace yourselves everybody they would take neighborhood cats oh god yeah yeah see this is what i mean You know where a story's going when someone starts fucking with neighborhood cats. See Pocket Robin. See a million other stories we've done. But they would take neighborhood cats and bury them in the yard like you'd bury your dad in the sand and then go, ha, ha, asshole, and throw sand in his eyes with their head sticking out of the dirt and then run the lawnmower over their head yeah of course that's yeah that's what they would do that was what that's that's a good time for these

two so the level of of fucked up that they are is um you know what i was going to say it's incalculable but it is calculable it's a formula that adds up to a mowed cat head. That's equals this. And then you know, wow, super fucked up. It's really fucked up. Later on, too, they would like to, both of them would do this. They would like to, they like to like freak people out. They would take like a, you know, a big two pound thing of ground beef and just shovel handfuls into their mouths at a time and eat it. Like eat pounds at a time just to like i wish they got fucking e coli right i'd like a hamburger only without the bun yeah and uh not cooked and also not in the shape of a hamburger can i have all those things do you

have that oh good just meat in a tray thank you i Thank you. I like it when it still looks like it just came out. That's so weird, man. That's some weird shit. But, I mean, that's what they like to do. They're weird guys, and they like to tell people and show people how weird they are. By the time they're in high school, they become kind of bullies, basically, because nobody can fuck with them. They're 350 pounds, and they work together. So, good luck.

You know, that's formidable. Then they started ending up, they figured out how to, a couple of drug hookups and they started having a lot of drugs and selling drugs to the other kids. Now, no matter how big of an asshole you are, if you have drugs in high school, you're very popular. You could, doesn't matter if people like you they don't care tend to make friends yeah it doesn't matter if they like you they they put up with you for as long as it takes to get what they want from you anyway it says any cross words

they go shut the fuck up man he's got weed shut up dude he gives fat fucking eights shut up bro they're like four grams i swear they're better better. He's like an extra fuck, a couple of balls in there. His quarters, like an extra finger high. Shut your mouth. And if that makes, if everybody has that vibe toward you, then all of a sudden girls start to notice you. There they are.

You know, cause one lovely, wonderful quality that women have, there's many, but one that they have is they will overlook many imperfections. If you have enough kind of a something that they like is they will overlook many imperfections if you have enough kind of something that they like. A charisma. A swagger.

A something. Yeah. They'll overlook a lot of physical imperfections for that. Whereas guys do the exact opposite. The exact opposite. We'll throw you in the trash. Yeah. Well, you could be the greatest person in the world.

You're like, I don't know. But as someone who's hot, you'd be like, oh, yeah, I know she stabbed her last boyfriend in the throat. And you end up like Deontay on Love After Lockup. It's like I watched Lindsay on camera destroy a man's house, freak out, carve shit in his desk and everything. But I think I'll do better with her. That's how guys think. We'll do anything if we're horny. we'll do anything if we if we're horny whereas you know and then toss him in the trash because uh her her feet made a weird sound on the sheets like i didn't like that yeah yeah that's the type

of weird shit guys do whereas women are like yeah i know he's just a fat disaster and i like nothing about him physically but you know what sometimes he just says this one thing and just just one way and i still fuck him and you're like wow what is happening you he calls me sugar and i love it god damn it you're fucking nice creatures thank you so there you go so they start to get popular with girls or and that and the weird part is there and i'm going to explain what we were just discussing how women will overlook shit they're popular with girls beside the fact or in spite of the fact that uh here's a quote from a girl in high school quote they wouldn't go to the bathroom or anything they'd just fart right out in class oh my god everybody laughed but it was put that, it was so just yuck, they said. So there you go.

That's what they like? They would fart, big giant 350-pound farts in class, and girls would still like them. Vile. You know what I mean? The worst. Like I said, that one girl farted once at a party while terribly drunk, and she was fart girl forever, and no one ever talked to her again. That's the difference between men and women they're very forgiving i envy people that just like own it and just like

walk around and just do it everywhere you know what i mean but in the 11th grade you can't let rip in science class that's going to give you a bad rep it's not not advisable. So this girl also said that they liked to fight a lot, and they would pick a lot of fights as well. So here's a guy named Ronnie Curry. He said he knew them well in school, but he said that, according to him, it wasn't them that started fights. It was other people would try to pick on them, and then they would retaliate, which by high school seems like that's not correct because it seems like they had drugs and were farting in class without anybody saying anything because they were. It's almost like, go ahead and make fun of me for farting so me and my brother could beat the shit out of you type of thing. So it's different. This they said the Ronnie Curry said the Bondurants came in seventh grade after they moved to the area.

And he said everybody picked on them because they were twins. I've never heard of that before. Nobody's ever done that. I've never heard of that. I've known multiple sets. Everybody goes, oh, wow, cool, you guys are twins. That's fucking cool. And then they ask a bunch of questions.

Maybe he means they picked on both of them because they were twins, but one of them deserved it more. Yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe. Yeah, they couldn't tell. They were like, everyone wanted to pick on Peteep but sometimes they'd see pat not know the difference and pick on him so most of it was true anyway because they're identical so it didn't matter so yeah he said that um people would pick on him just to see what they would do is what uh he said he said they used to read you know paperback books all the time and he's he's

described pat as a loner saying that um if you fought one the other jumped right in and he said they were very they were tough in a fight he said when they hit you they were like wild beasts jesus they hit you with everything they had it's a lot for big guys like that he said they would when they would fight they would scream and holler as well. They would scream and like, and they're attacking you, two giant guys. That would be terrifying if you're a child. There was a kid in school that used to fight like that. It was a spectacle.

Watching somebody scream while punching is crazy. How about two giant 350-pound guys screaming while punching? Two fat taggers. So they said, Curry said one time in the eighth grade he was with pete in the boys restroom and he and pete got into a fight um but he said that uh he said that pete got they started wrestling and pete got curry down on the bathroom floor which is disgusting right away gross yeah, yeah. And started choking him. He said that he thought he was going to get choked to death until another guy, Butch Crabtree, came in. Butch.

Butch Crabtree showed up. A child named Butch. A child named Butch. He's in the eighth grade named Butch. You know he came in smoking a non-filter cigarette. Hey, how yous doing in here? What the hell's going on? Drinking black coffee. Butchie, help me. Hey, alright, sorry.

Hold on a minute. Jesus Christ, I'm sorry. I was working. I was putting some new rings in my car. I'm sorry a minute. I just came in. Holy shit. Black coffee in Pete's face. Right in his face. Put his lucky out on his forehead and knocked him off.

He said that he saved me. So the Bondurants though, he said they dressed sloppy, had bad manners and all that sort of thing. So not great. They said that also here is a guy named David Duggar.

Now he'll later on have a daughter named Gwen Duggar who we'll talk about who's about 12 years or 10 years younger than the twins. But David Duggar said that, quote, I've known them since they was that high. There you go. Made a gesture. Holding his hand a couple feet off the floor, it says. We get it. Like, you didn't need to say that.

No, he's holding it over his head. I've known them since they were six foot eleven unnecessary we knew it sir that's hilarious he says they used to come in my tavern a lot they weren't like other people you know how most people come in and sit down on a stool and have a beer they couldn't sit still they were always up and moving around and messy you had to run uh you had to run around after them with a towel they get a draft beer and drag it all over the place spilling it everywhere what jesus christ is showing up being a disaster at the bar what the fuck is that you walk around and spill you you get a bottle motherfucker what are you doing or you get kicked

out because they think you're drunk already just sloppy one of the two and this part there's some quotes here that come from this kind of a short book that i'll give you the name of later i don't have it right here i'll give it at the end of the show here but uh they had some quotes i didn't find anywhere else so i gotta give them credit so he says this david duggar also says that uh one event stood out in his mind. He said, quote, I used to keep a big pot of stew going. What? At the bar. At his bar? Yeah.

Who doesn't want booze and stew? Sauce and stew. You know how it goes. What is this, Minnie's Haberdashery? I love stew, first of all. And some bread. Yeah, but I don't love just random ass stew. No.

No, I don't want pots. I mean, I don't want some cauldron of bar. Yeah. Crock pot stew that's been there for how long? Well, he says, I used to keep a big pot of stew going. That sounds like they just keep it simmering overnight and it's just a constant stew pot that he's scooping out of. Gross.

There could be meat there from six months ago. We don't know. But who knows? He said, a lot of my customers like stew. All right. I like it hot and i always had hot sauce on hand for a hot sauce to put on one day one of them i couldn't tell them apart unless they was together so i don't know which one it was but one of them was in my place and he told this other

guy i bet you i can drink two bottles of hot sauce oh boy oh no that's not it's gonna do terrible things to your stomach dude yeah the other guy says what do you want to bet and bondurant says a case of beer so the guy says all right david give me two bottles of hot sauce and i'll pay for it i said no if he can drink two bottle if he can drink two bottles i'll set them up on the house and i handed him two bottles of hot sauce and then he drank them so he said they were new bottles with the plastic still on them i turned around to get a glass because you know how hard it is to get hot sauce out of one of those little bottles anyway while i'm turned around getting the glass he sucked both those bottles dry sucked them oh my god out of that little yikes yep out of the little hole a little tip oh my god anyway jesus christ uh and the other guy shook his

head and says give me a case of beer i set a case on the counter bondurant took it and walked outside he was riding this little motorbike he put the case of beer across his lap and rode off he put a case of beer on his lap on his lap and rode off on a little motorcycle to be shitting his brains out for the next week he's gonna be sweating that's not good how what kind of an iron stomach do you have i don't know but i feel like the bar owner uh got away with one there get that guy the fuck out of here he's just gonna throw menace anyway. He could have thrown up everywhere. Yeah. That's what I mean. Yeah, if that gets him out, great.

But I knew two guys that did a habanero eating contest. They ate less than 15 apiece, and for a week, they were all fucked up. They were sweating all the time. Like, three days later, the one was like, I went to the gym, and I started doing stuff, and I just started dry heaving out of nowhere. He goes, and I can't hold anything down and like i'm all fucked up and they they were bright red you gotta assume that's just the way life's gonna go from now on yeah that's never gonna stop oh like a week into it they were just like i can't do it anymore man like the one guy a couple days

later just had like a gallon of water he would carry, and he'd take a big sip, and then he'd just throw it up next to him because he couldn't keep anything down still. It was horrible. So here's another story from their childhood. This is also David Duggar here. He says, wow. He says they saw that back when they – oh, they say that back when they was younger, their daddy bought a calf to raise. So this is kind of local lore. This could be more of just an urban legend.

Exactly. That's the word I'm looking for here. Could be an urban legend. We have no idea. So he said he was showing them how to bottle feed the calf his wife come to the back door and called him because somebody was on the phone he gave the bottle to the boys and told them to feed the calf when he comes back the calf was laying there dead he asked them what happened and they said that the calf wouldn't suck the bottle, so they took a two-by-four and killed it. Oh, my God.

Yeah, they just beat it to death with a two-by-four. Yeah, there's there. And then he talks about the cats with the lawnmower as well. So veal parm. Yeah, we're having definitely veal parm tonight, I would say. Jesus Christ, man. Put some sauce on the stove, sweetheart, because, hey, Polly. Send me the gravy.

Put some rigatoni in. It's time. So that's what's going on with this. They graduated from high school in 1973. Pat says he went to Martin Methodist College for a semester, although there's no record of his attendance

at the college, but there are professors that remember him, so maybe they keep poor records. Who knows? Shortly after that, he gets a job with the Pulaski Rubber Company. This is the Pulaski Rubber Plant. They make rubber that goes on rubber mats for school buses. So they make the rubber floor of a school bus. Oh, that fucking runner that goes down the middle? Yeah, that's what they make.

That's just like a machine that puts out a sheet of fucking rubber right i guess and i don't know how many buses are you really after there's a are there new buses coming in constantly because it feels like these buses i see around look like they've been around a while none of them they don't look they keep pumping buses out for schools i don't think they get a new fleet every year no but he's going to start there in 1973 and work there for the duration here pat that's his that's his jam um they said that uh the brothers this is their first time apart now pat gets a job at the rubber plant and pete's got to find his own way yeah so because hugh goes by pete that's that's what they call him so pete and

pat pete goes his own way and he moves to Cincinnati, Ohio and he gets married. That doesn't work out. Who knows what even happens. That was very brief. And he just spends his time hanging out, getting shit-faced. That's all he does. Hangs out with his friends, gets shit-faced

and all that. Pete tried to get a job like Pat, but he could never hold one for a long time he tries to he ends up going into the u.s army in september of 1973 but he's only there for a month and a day and he's granted an honorable discharge somehow after a month and a day how do you negotiate that is it medical medical maybe? Could that be it? Did they get him in there and be like, his heart's going to explode. Like we can't have him.

He is in much worse shape than we thought. Yeah, we thought. He's been just eating stew and hot sauce and beer. That's all he drinks and eats. We can't treat him like Gomer Pyle here. We got to let him go. He's going to die. Remember, see that big wall?

There's no way he's getting up that alive. No fucking way in the world. So he's gone from the military with his honorable discharge, and he works at the Elkton Farm Supply Store for a while. Then from March of 74 to July of 74, he is at the Shady Lawn Truck Stop. He works there. The Shady Lawn Truck Stop in Elkton, by the way way has a giant chicken outside of it i looked it up it's a it has a huge like fucking giant chicken that you can see 30 foot high chicken i don't know if it's 30 feet but it's like that like a big giant chicken you can see from down the road and

that's to tell you to come there and get gas apparently and maybe eat chicken i don't know see jimmy would eat that and have terrible diarrhea. That's what he would do. He would eat that on a road trip. So anyway, in July of 74, he also goes to work for the Lipscomb Trucking Company. Okay. Out of Jackson, Mississippi. But that doesn't last very long either, obviously. So late 1974, Pete, that's when he's in cincinnati since none of this works out he moves to cincinnati in seven late 74 and within a couple months he's just hanging out

directionless wandering drinking with his friends that he's made and uh that's about it so um now august 24th 1974 he's hanging out with two guys that he, it seems like he's their roommate. He's staying there most of the time. Roger Sellers and Roger Mills are their names. Two Rogers. Two Rogers, Roger and Roger. So maybe he liked them because their names were twins. So he's like, you know, he stayed with the, yeah, it's home for him.

Also, Sandy and Carol are the women. I think those are their two girlfriends. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched.

He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier.

I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max, starting April 21st bye bye the official jinx podcast listen on max or wherever you get your podcasts pete's staying with them all right now um pete says that uh our pete met roger at the ymca in jackson mississippi and they had trucked up to cincinnati a couple days before oh boy so two things that

stand out in that sentence YMCA trucked up those are two how often do you move in with people you meet at the YMCA Jimmy and then hop in their truck and go to another state that's a it's fascinating that people I realize that was a thing people did. In the 70s, too, yeah. It's so weird. People hitchhiked back then. Yeah, they hitchhiked, but they also went to the Y. And if they met someone that was half nice, they'd be like, yeah, I'll get in your truck and drive to another state, and I'll move in with you and your girlfriend. Sounds great. And someone would offer that to a stranger and assume no one was going to get murdered. That's wild.

That'd be fine, yeah. Now everyone's like, oh, he's going to definitely kill me. Who accepts a ride? He's crazy, obviously. Crazy person. What kind of weirdo offers rides? Yeah, and what kind of weirdo takes one when it's offered?

Jesus. There's no end to it now. So Pete says that he would do, they all did tons of drugs at this time. In this apartment, everybody's drinking, everybody's doing drugs and everything like that. He stayed there for a little while. He said that he later on pretended that he didn't use drugs. He said, I didn't use any drugs, but everyone else was using drugs.

He said, they'd give me pills and stuff and I'd pretend to swallow them, i'd really i'd really spit them out and you know throw them away you know what i mean i didn't want anybody to think i was a sucker or nothing but at the same time i don't do drugs meanwhile he's been doing drugs since high school for years no problem so at one point he claimed that his car had been stolen by his roommates so the rogers stole pete's car the rogers or sandy you can't you know don't trust sandy or carol either don't put anything past them they could be super shady sometimes yeah questionable carol is her nickname actually how do you know that jimmy that's that's amazing and suspect sandy it's suspect sandy and questionable carol that's who they are. So he claimed that.

They said other witnesses said that the car actually, people that knew him, said the car actually broke down somewhere in Kentucky. And that Pete and others who were living in the house had hitchhiked back to Cincinnati after abandoning the car. But for some reason, he blamed them for stealing it after that. Very strange. For some reason, he blamed them for stealing it after that. Very strange. Now, he also says that Bondurant, Pete, will claim that Sellers and Mills, the Rogers here, they threatened him. They said one night here, they took money from him and his pocket knife.

They robbed him. Robbed him blind. They said they woke him up and threatened him with a knife and a soft drink bottle oh their glass back then so he's got a coke bottle and a knife i'll beat you with so there's that and he said um he said he begged not he begged them not to hurt him he said please and also please give me back that silver dollar which you took from from me it's not money that i care about it's a sentimental gift for my mother and i'd like to have it back, please. It means a lot to me. And they said, no, you piece of shit.

We're not giving you anything. Nothing. They said they wouldn't let him up. They made him stay in bed at knife point, and they took even more drugs at that point. And they told him that you're either going to give up all your shit or we're going to murder you right here in your bed where you sleep, mister. Dead meat. That's what he claims. You're fucking dead.

So Pete said, he said, this is my time. I got to escape. And he jumped up to try to get out of there. When he jumped up to get out, they tried to attack him. They were like, oh, no, buddy, you're going back down there. And he said at that point he just grabbed on the dresser for anything to defend them off with. You know what I mean? Oh, no. I need a weapon.

They have weapons. Turns out that object was a screwdriver. And he'll later say that he can't recall how many times he stabbed either man. Oh, boy. Yeah. He said that he, quote, went berserk. And he does recall that he stabbed each of the men in the chest. But he said he was fighting for his life.

That's what it was. He said at one point, and this is true because we have their point of view, which is way different. Carol and Sandy, they were out at the store getting cigarettes. Really? They showed back up at the door. They went and got cigarettes and everything's fine. They come back and now two of the people have been stabbed to shit. Okay.

One of them will survive this attack, by the way. One of the men here, even though he's stabbed a lot. So the women started crying. And yeah, they said that, you know, they were crying and going up and trying to help the guys. And he said that at that point, he as soon as the women left, as soon as the women arrived, he said he left and went downstairs. He said he sat there and, you know, thought about his options for a while. You know, what do I do now? He said he could run back to Tennessee, but then they're just going to come get him, obviously.

So he decided to go down to the local police station and report what just happened. So he says he was walking out in the street toward the police station. And what do you know? Gosh darn it. Police cars came on up looking for him. So thank God. Oh, good, guys. I was just looking for you.

Perfect. Yeah. He said he flagged them down and told them what happened in the apartment. And yeah, he said that. He said quote. I don't know how the judge is going to take it. But to me it was self-defense. It was either me or them. And my neck is just as precious as anybody else's.

That's what he told them. That's how it is. Now a little bit different when they talk to Sandy and Carol. And they find out. Sandy's 17 by the way. So I mean they're all pretty young. And they said that all for the few days before this whole thing happened he'd been flashing a knife around and uh the other

people to the point where they had to start asking him can you stop fucking like whipping a knife around all the time you're making us all uncomfortable she said that uh during the time that he stayed at the apartment he would ask carol to marry him all the time and to go away with him. She's got a Roger. I don't know if that one's with Roger. Sandy is with one of the Rogers but I don't know if Carol's with the other Roger or if she's just Sandy's friend. So either way, she's gotten

many marriage proposals from Pete and marry me and run away with me and all this type of shit and she said that one day Pete had suddenly threatened to call the police because he said Roger Mills was a wanted man. And then out of nowhere, he just accused the other Roger sellers of stealing his car. So she said it was just like one day he freaked out and was like, you did this and you did this and he stole my car and he started fucking going nuts.

freaked out and was like you did this and you did this and he stole my car and he started fucking going nuts so um sandy and carol said that they went to buy cigarettes and soda about 10 30 or 11 p.m when they returned to the door of the apartment now it's locked they didn't lock it when they left she said they knocked on the door and carol called out open the door it's us and when the door door finally opened pete was standing there covered in blood with a knife in his hand. Oh, my God. He got his knife back? Yeah, a knife in his hand. Yeah, he took it away from them.

She said that she saw her boyfriend. Sandy was with Roger Sellers. He was lying on the floor just beyond the door covered with blood. And she ran and saw Carol ran over to Mills who was equally covered in blood he was on the couch she said a neighbor lady came in and then she's the one who called the police a neighbor lady and

it's fucking crazy she said she got down close to Sellers and Sellers said quote I never did nothing that's what she's like I didn't do anything to him basically and Sellers said that quote i was just sitting here and he started stabbing me in the back that's according to sandy um so yeah she said she didn't even remember him leaving pete he just took off like when they went

to tend to the rogers pete ran away and that was it um carol um agreed with all of this pretty much. She said that when Pete opened the door and told them to come in, and they both remembered this later, that he told them, you're next. He said, come on in, you're next. And they ran in. They didn't even run away. They ran in past him, and then he just left. So, I mean, he could have started stabbing them while they were tending to the Rogers. Who knows? This could have been she could have started stabbing them while they were tending to the rogers who knows this could have been even worse so um she said that uh she started to back

up carol did and that pete started toward her with a knife in his hand and she said she began pleading with him not to hurt her and at that point he was distracted by sandy going into the kitchen and he just kind of got discombobulated and took off. And that was that. So they get to the cops, get there and they talk to Pete. Obviously, they asked him, they advise him of his rights. They said, what the fuck happened? And yeah, he said that the Rogers came into his room where he'd been asleep. Now he's got a different story now and a different.

I told you his later story. This is his now story he says that um he had been asleep and uh they threw a knife at his feet for some reason and one of them told him to take his shoes and socks off and then uh he said that that's when and then he said the rest of it happened where they started attacking him and from the rest of it i tried to get up and they attacked me. That's all the same. Then he said that he told a cop later on in one of his interviews, I think he said Mills took his pants off. And I told him if he'd suck both of them off, they wouldn't do nothing to him. That's what he told him.

So then he claimed they both wanted blowjobs at that point. So, yeah. And then that's when he said they came after him with a bottle and all of that. So his claim is that they both wanted blowjobs or they just wanted to torture him and stab him. Either one. One or the other. Not sure. It's not great.

Either way, Mills dies from 46 stab wounds to the chest, neck, and forearms. 40 of them were with a screwdriver. Oh, God. And the other Roger Sellers, he is also stabbed a lot, but he survives it, actually. Yeah, he survives. Now, Pete's only 19, for fuck's sake, at this point, which is insane. This all happened for no reason. Roger Mills is only 21 years old. Roger Sellers was 24 years old.

This is just fucked, man. It's completely fucked. By 19, he's been in the military for a month, held all these jobs, worked for trucking companies, and he's already in Ohio stabbing people. 19. Wow. Most kids are just, they don't even leave the house by 19. Dude, that's amazing.

Just hanging out. Yeah. So later on, his attorneys will try to say that there was a big party in the house and that there was a ton of people there and everybody was taking drugs and then anybody could have stabbed him you know but he told the patrolman in the street quote here i am i'm the one you want i stabbed him that's pretty clear yeah um so yeah and also they said that they thought he was joking till they saw the dead body on the floor the girls at the door because they went and got cigarettes and everything was fine and then he's got a knife and he's like you're next and they're like yeah whatever dude like they thought he was they thought he was kidding i thought he was cops did no no no we take everything said seriously the girls thought he was fucking joking so there was that now pete ends up at the state reformatory

in mansfield ohio on january 10 1975. Later goes to the state correctional facility in Lebanon, Ohio. He is in prison for just over five years, five years and a month. He is sentenced to 15 years, but he ends up doing way less than that. He's released on February 7th, 1980. And he's paroled then.

And five years and 28 days he served. That's crazy. Not a whole lot. Now, there's an interstate compact that allows states to exchange paroled and probation people from one state to another. Pete's parole was transferred to Tennessee, where he's from. And his parole officer at the time was saying that they approved it all. And so he had been convicted in the state of Ohio, not Tennessee. The conditions of his parole were defined by Ohio state law.

During the 80s, an Ohio parolee served only one year when placed on parole, regardless of length of imprisonment. So you couldn't say you're on parole for five years it would only be one year so whenever you let you let somebody out you better think they're going to be great in one year by then they're going to be ready so after his one year uh he works at the athens state college library for a year and then everything is completed and done march 31st 1981 no supervision all supervision. All good. He's good now. Attempted murder of one man, murder another. Six years later, we're free and not tied to anything.

Five years and a month for 25 years that he got from manslaughter. Holy shit. Yeah. He immediately hooks up with Pat again, obviously, with his twin. And they live in Elkton tennessee which is a very small town less than 500 residents in that town at the time very small town where they begin to sell drugs to everybody oh yeah they hang out um and they sell a shitload of drugs um they say for three weeks in 1984 pete worked for a ramada Inn in Atlanta, but then he was gone.

Can you imagine? Yeah, him at the Ramada. He's staying at a hotel, and there is an actual manslaughterer here. Hi. He's probably a maintenance guy, too. You call him at 2 a.m. when something's broken, he comes in your room. Perfect. That guy shows up.

Jesus. He also said he worked for Breco Breaks well in atlanta for a minute but either way he stabbed people with a screwdriver and we give him a job where he's got all the access to all the screwdrivers well he's good with a knife so later on he also worked as a cook at a as a cook for a bowling alley unbelievable so there's that uh anyway Pat, on the other hand, Pat's been doing the same thing the entire time. Works for Pulaski Rubber, doing his thing. Co-workers said that he's a generous, helpful, polite, trustworthy guy who's committed to his son. Who, by the way, I don't know if is actually his son or just like kind of his stepson that he's had since he was a baby.

So he kind of takes him as his son i'm not sure yet either way they also say he loves to get fucked up though that's one thing about pat they said weed booze other narcotics anything he can get his hands on including standing over the paint tank at work huffing the fumes he does that all all the time. I'm going on break. I'll be at the paint tank. I'll be at the paint tank. No, no, I'm not. You guys go ahead. I'll be spending my break inside.

That's the water cooler. In the 11th grade, there was some weird shit in wood shop that you'd like this epoxy weird shit that would get you really high. And I used to smell that all the time, too. But that wasn't my job i was at school so i was just trying to escape from this yeah an adult hanging his face over the paint tank oh gosh this is wonderful they're like jesus this is fantastic like it's boiling water and he's got a stuffy nose right he's got a towel over his head he's got a towel over his head there so yeah he do all of that shit he's he's taking anything he can get him as hands-on uh he develops hepatitis

multiple times between 85 and 87 from iv drug use yeah um he also he's got so many problems later on he'll be diagnosed as a diabetic as well but he likes pills speed amphetamines of all kinds alcohol weed lsd he'll shoot shit he shoots meth he shoots fucking opiates he'll do anything literally any drug in any possible ingestion method he will fucking do it he'll jam snort drink or fucking poke it into himself he is a vessel for chemicals that's that's all he is man and apparently um arby's from what i understand because their physique is getting larger and larger both of these guys so 1983 pat marries a young woman here she marries to he marries denise now they'll get separated in august of 86 after a fight which is uh we'll talk all about but uh we'll talk about what's going on during that time

during the fight she comes back and forth though she doesn't leave forever during this fight in august of 86 she was pregnant um and he was on the floor choking and hitting her while holding a gun to her head denise's older sister broke up the fight and then her while holding a gun to her head. Denise's older sister broke up the fight, and then Denise went to live with her older sister in Alabama for two months and then came back. Yeah. So during that time, Denise had Matthew, who's the three-year-old that we're talking about that he says is his son. Matthew has cerebral palsy. God damn. Which is really tough.

I mean, Jesus Christ, if Denise isn't going through enough having a son with cerebral palsy and trying to help him, now she's got to deal with some asshole while she's pregnant being choked and hit and had a gun to her head. So Denise, while she's gone, what would happen is Pat would get Matthew's disability check from Social Security. He would get it at his house in Tennessee. And then Denise, they would have contact, and he would then give her the cash from the check every month for Matthew.

So she would also call him whenever she needed other money because he's got money because he's working and selling drugs so um anyway uh yeah that's how that goes now during all of this shit here they lived in different places from 84 and to 87 their parents worked in germany so for a while there the kids would rent their house as well. They'd had access to the parents' house because they were in Germany all the time. So they have this farmhouse that Pat has. And then they also kind of go back and forth to the Bondurant family house as well. So yeah, anyway, they'd go up there all the time on the weekends. So at this point, they're hard partying, dealing all kinds of drugs, living together.

They start to get a little following around there. One of the local journalists called it the Spond Ranch of Tennessee, basically. The Spondurant Ranch? The Spondurant Ranch of Tennessee. So the Spondurant Ranch here, the Spondurant Ranch is there's always people coming, young people too. Not like kids, but 22, 24, stuff like that, doing drugs, hanging out. This is how they get women as well. It's a pretty gross scene, basically.

Now, holy shit, May of 1986, there are a couple people come over um gwen duggar uh gwendoline duggar who is the bar owner with the stew it's his daughter okay she's 24 at the time you said a lot younger than them um 24 at the time and she her brother ken and her came over she's a single mother got a young son and she came over there with her brother ken i guess had a uh his car was fucked up it had broken down and the boys the brothers fixed it so they were going to pick up the car okay now while this is happening there's a bit of a kind of a little party going on i guess a party atmosphere yeah in the house here so you know gwen decides hey she talks to pete for a while

and pete's pete decides to convinces her to stay gwen's like a petite blonde chick and uh they have drugs and they're like hey we got stuff and we're gonna party and we're gonna do all this you know why don't you hang out here so gwen says bye to ken ken leaves leaves and Gwen stays behind. Okay. Hanging out. Now, Denise, who is Pat's wife, Denise said that Gwen bought Valium and Placidil at that point from them. Because they had both of those for sale. And she said that Gwen, quote, got high on the verge of passing out. Wow. Taking a bunch of pills. Now, Denise said she had been there three or four times that month,

and Pat had sold her Valium. So that's what she's into, and she goes there and gets it from them. Now, two other men are there, Gary Harden and Dwayne Howell, and they're at the home drinking, taking pills, and smoking weed that day, just hanging with the guys here. That's big day. That's when Gwen said she wanted to stay and party. And she told her brother that.

Now, they also said that Denise says that Harden, Gary Harden, quote, made a pass at Duggar, at Gwen. But then he backed off, not because it's the right thing to do or anything. It's because Pat pulled a.38 caliber pistol on him and said. Was he protecting her? You would think, right? Hey, you leave her alone. I told her brother I'd keep an eye on her. He actually said, quote, Pete's going to have her first because he bought her drugs.

Gross. Yeah. If anyone's going to bang her, it's going to be Pete. So you get the fuck away at gunpoint. eye on her he actually said quote pete's gonna have her first because he bought her drugs gross yeah if anyone's gonna bang her it's gonna be pete so you get the fuck away at gunpoint that could have been said with words that could have been said with words that didn't need gunplay brother and be like my brother's trying to trying to trying to get after her yeah so you don't say have her first have her first sounds Well, because she's to the point of passing out. And that's the point when Pete takes her into the bathroom to have sex with her. To rape her, essentially, at that moment. So, yeah, it gets worse because they said she's really drugged and he basically had to drag her into the bathroom.

So that's certainly rape. So then apparently Pat joined in with pete yeah then they dragged her into a bedroom after that okay meanwhile um howell uh duane howell he leaves not because he's disgusted by what he sees which would be the normal reason oh this is horrible i can't be here for this i should probably get help um no he goes to see his ex-wife whose name is patricia love who is a stripper at the boogie bungalow club uh he goes to the boogie bungalow club uh there and um he said that uh um he told his ex that quote he had a whore on a bale of hay because they took her out to the barn yeah and he so he started inviting people from the strip club to come over and have a go at her is what he's saying yeah like uh like turn into a hell's angels thing from the 60s here so

unbelievable um so yeah now back to the house here um she's moved around various rooms and everything like that we told you she'll end up in the farmhouse before he was gone denise walks in while pat is having sex having raping Gwen. Gwen, yeah. That's her husband. And Denise is currently pregnant, and she walks in and sees her husband doing that. So Denise, at that point, what do you think she does? Freaks out and says, how dare you? We're getting a divorce.

She hits Gwen first. Unbelievable. Then hits her husband too like it's both of their faults like unbelievable um then she said she walked out on them okay she walked out on them um not to leave completely she walked out to go back to the kitchen to finish cooking dinner. She, I don't even know what to say about that. How bad is that relationship? So, yeah, she said that, yeah, this was fucking ridiculous. Now, she said she was so mad at Pat because, quote,

Pat didn't even care that he'd been caught. He went right back to it. I was hurt. I was hurt. What happened? Well, I mean. What about Gwen? Jesus Christ. I was hurt. I was hurt. Well, I mean, what about Gwen? I'd be hurt if my husband was fucking raping an unconscious woman.

Also, I'd be hurt that I married a fucking monster. That's what I'd be hurt about. Not. I was hurt that he didn't drug me and drag me in there instead. What a scene. So Denise demanded that the other two guys get the fuck out. You guys get out or Harden because he's the only one left.

You get out and she started packing her own shit. Started packing her own shit. Then according to Jesus Christ, according to one of the man's testimony later on, he'll say that Denise told a detective later on that she then, Denise, quote, picked up a stick and hit Pat first, then beat the hell out of the woman. Unbelievable. With a stick. Her friend said that she gets angry fast and that she, quote, she can get real mad real quick. Now, she leaves the house. I'm out of here. Indignantignant she comes back a half hour later i got some more shit to say

yeah i'm i've had enough she got she packed her stuff and left and then came back she realized she didn't have anywhere to go and she came back at that point she said she she found gwen's uh naked unconscious body on a mattress there she said she tried to wake gwen up and woke her up and got her to her feet but as she got her to her feet she said pat burst into the room with an axe handle and began beating gwen in the head with it oh dear god okay um he said quote he swung it down on her head with all of his might he struck her 10 to 12 times before she collapsed on the ground okay denise goes on to say quote this is so fucking horrible by the way i apologize for not giving a hey heads up this is awful but it's pretty fucking awful it gets worse he says quote she says denise will say after he got

her beaten down he began having sex with her again what at which point she began losing control of her bodily functions you know because she's dying because she has brain injuries for fuck's sake so that point pete came in and said he's gonna put her out of her misery and he shot her twice in the head with a 22 what the fuck man yeah this is i could it be worse i mean why would you that's these the day is out of control you think yeah you've just you've just put anytime you quote put a person out of their misery things have gotten out of hand i think at that point so um then they wrapped her they wrapped gwen in garbage bags and um brought her into the backyard and stuffed her into a 55 gallon barrel behind the house and then set her on fire

burned her um the uh they crushed up what was left any kind of bones and put it back in the barrel and then later on we'll dump it in the elk river the remains uh the, this is fucking crazy. Um, he, he said that now Gary Lynn Harden here, Gary Harden, he said that, uh, Denise, Denise was definitely threatening her as well. And, um, said that Denise went ballistic. And, um, he also said that he saw quote, Pat walked up with an axe handle and beat Gwen to a pulp as Denise watched. He then said Pete saying he was going to put the bloody Gwen out of her misery, shot her twice with a.22 caliber pistol. Holy shit. By the way, they stuffed her head first into the barrel. Of course. And burned it all night with the mattress and her clothes. And to get that hot fire, they use rubber from work.

Rubber burns a long time and burns hot and so that's that's what they use and dirty yep they then began to tell denise that she could have she could have um since since obviously the marriage is over you're not down with this i mean jesus you can have the car and everything else that That's fine. I don't need it, is what he said. You got that. I'll take care of everything. So, yeah, that's what's going on here. So they got a divorce after this? And she said nothing.

She said, yeah, no. Well, he said that he'll blame it all on her, is what she said, basically. Now, holy shit. He then carried Pete at that point, because he's the one who pulled the trigger. He carried two spent 22 caliber shell casings that he shot her with the two that he killed her with. Carry around him in his pocket all the time. He called him Gwen Bees. Oh my God.

Gwen Bees. What does that even mean? I don't know. Gwen B.Y.S. Gwen Bees. Gwen Bees mean i don't know gwen bys gwen bees gwen buys i don't know gwen bees and quote he would take them out and play with them like dice gross all the time yep so that happened in uh in 86 there now a little later in the year no one by the way gwen is just missing and gone and no one knows where she went and none of these people are saying anything because they're all afraid of the twins here so nobody says shit

gwen's just missing so next enter william ronnie gains goes by hippie everyone calls him hippie hippie gains now he has worked uh with pat at the rubber company since 1973. Friends. They're friends. They've worked together forever. They've worked together for 13 years and everything like that. Now, in September of 86, Denise asked Pat for money to help her move to Pulaski and told her that, because she was in Alabama at that point, to Pulaski and told her that because she was in Alabama at that point, told her that his wallet, he told her his wallet had been stolen the night before while he and while he and hippie gains were at the rubber plant and he or in that wallet, had Matthew's disability check in it,

and a bunch of cash. It had an endorsed disability check because it was endorsed by her from the cash. And some drug money. Yeah. So in October of 86 here, Denise went to get the money and rented an apartment and all of that.

And on that day, Denise picked up the money from him, and he made more remarks about the wallet being taken. Pat does. He said that he's embarrassed and pissed off, and he thinks Hippie did it. And he says, no one steals anything from me or takes anything from little Matthew. Not going to happen. He's mad.

So a little bit about Gaines here. here gains has had a rough uh month here his wife joyce said that they were married at this time but her and her daughter left him a little while earlier after a big fight now um gains after pat's wallet was gone he started getting a ride from work to and from work with another guy because he knew that Pat was mad at him, even though he said he swore he didn't take it. So, um, yeah, yeah. Pat told this other guy who gives, uh, who gives him a ride that he and Pete were going to catch him in your car. The guy who gives a hippie a ride to work, he goes, me and my brother are going to catch you and we're going to pull him out of your car and kill him because he stole my wallet.

And then they go do a shift together. So Saturday, October 18th 1986, Denise needs some more money from Pat. She looks for Pat, but no one's home. She looks around, she can't find him. So then she went to the Pulaski

Rubber Company because he was supposed to be there by 11 but no one's home. Okay. She looks around, she can't find him. So then she went to the Pulaski rubber company, uh, because he was supposed to be there by 11 and he wasn't there. So she found out he wasn't coming into work till three. So she came back at two 30 and waited for Pat to show up. He showed up at two 45. He's driving his old. He's got a 64,

a white 64 Plymouth fury. Fuck. Yeah. Yeah. It's not, it's a piece of shit at that point, though. It's not like a done-up. It's not souped-up Sport Fury.

It's just the Ford order. It's an old Fury that's barely hanging on. Yeah, it's not good at that point. How about that? A guy that's this mad and angry at everybody drives a Fury. A Fury. Fucking crazy. A white hot Fury.

So he pulls up next to Denise, and she notices blood smeared on the rear fender of his car on the outside, on the outside of the car. She asked him what up with the blood, dude? And he said, sit in the fucking car and act like you're sick. OK. And he was like, OK. So he ran into the plant to get some wet paper towels. That's the plan here. He returned with the paper towels and handed them to Denise, and he told her, start wiping your face.

So she did this, and while she did that to, you know, act like. Yeah, he went over and wiped the blood off his car with the paper towels. blood off his car with the paper towels. So he told her that the night before, I was playing cards with Hippie at Hippie's house. You know what I mean? We were over there hanging out. I caught that son of a bitch cheating. That Hippie's a real thief.

Tried to crawfish. He said, I caught him cheating. He said, we were drinking quite a bit, and he's cheating. And I started thinking about my wallet being stolen by this son of a bitch, and he took Matthew's money, little Matthew, little cerebral palsy Matthew. That's right. Jerry Lewis out there doing telethons and every other goddamn thing. He going to steal his money? I said, this son of a bitch.

So I thought about it. And then on top of it, he's going to cheat? hide a king i don't think so and he said he quote just went off and he started beating hippie with a small rocking chair that was nearby with a small rocking chair like a child's rocking yeah baby's rocker he said that he continually beat the man for over 30 minutes unbelievable he said he beat him until there was only a quote a small piece of the rocking chair left everything else turned to splinter in his hand yeah for a half hour until he was dead so he beat him to death with a rocking chair he said he said well then obviously i was like well oh shit i just beat him with a rocking chair gotta do something

so he carried him into the bathtub and then called mark marrow over at the shady lawn truck stop in elkton and said would you go and go across the street there to the farmhouse and go get my brother pete for me so pete ended up showing up at the house and they decide to dismember hippie in the bathtub so they do they cut him up into many pieces together into the in the bathtub how do these two fat fucks fit over a bathtub number one i gotta know i don't know but they have done this absolutely so many times their first thing is well we better cut them up and we'll put them in the bathtub that's what mob guys do oh shit we killed petey well put them in the tub take them apart what else are we gonna do

so they cut him up in his own bathtub wow uh pete and pat both do that um wow um pat tells denise that he and pete clean the bathtub and pour drano down the drain in case there was, you know, anything lingering around the top of the drain there. Then they loaded the body into they loaded the body in the car and took it to West Point, Tennessee, where their parents had a house. They went out there. They then burned the body. This house is in Pulaski, by the way, the victim hippie's house. That's the body this house is in pulaski by the way the victim hippie's house that's why this thing takes place in pulaski there's not a lot to talk about with elkton that's why there's nothing there so we did pulaski so anyway they burn uh they take him there

they put him they burn him about five feet outside the back door of their parents house just right there. They burned him, probably had marshmallows going. You fucking name it. So Denise points out that there's blood on the car, like we said, all of that shit. And he said, well, since you're the one who pointed out the blood, that means you're in on this now. So that means you're entitled to, quote, one-third of the burial expenses. What does that mean? That means the money they robbed from hippie oh that's called a burial expense that's they took

it as a they took it as a fee for disposing of him otherwise his family would have had to bury him that's going to cost him a pretty penny we disposed we incurred it yeah yeah and then we just we take this as our fee that's what they did did. So gave her some money, a bunch of 20s, and she noticed that they had blood on them. So that's nice. She took it, though. Actual blood money. Actual blood money. She took the money, though.

She then said she saw him later that night when he came to her apartment to take a bath. So she's not like, hey, get away from me. Oh, my God, I'm running to the police. She's like, come on over and wash yourself up. That's a lot so he left around 12 30 or 1 a.m to go to west point because he had to do some work there so denise saw pat again on september on sunday october 19th at the farmhouse in elkton so she went to the farmhouse for some reason back to the place of the original slaughter of glenn of gwen there so pat pete and their friend rodney randolph old rodney randolph were at the house old rod roddy rand they were at the house when

denise showed up the three of the guys were out front on the porch drinking and using various drugs including needles and everything else is involved when When Denise walked up to the porch, Pat pointed to the corner of the yard where there was a round lump, a quote, smoking round lump in the yard and said, quote, that's what's left to hippie. Yeah.

So that's fucking crazy. They moved it from the parents house. They the burned corpse. They moved from the parents house back to their place in Elkton because they wanted to be they wanted to be close to town so they could get to it fast in case they heard anything was brewing with it. They are such bad dudes. They're bad people. Yeah. They wanted him close by. bad dudes they're bad people yeah they wanted them close by so pat explained to denise he had to burn the body um you know and to burn the body he's like you know how hot you got to get a body to burn it's hot it's not wood we've talked about it how many times on this show god it you've got burning so hot burning a body is a bad idea well he said had to use a bunch of rubber from work

and it still took two and a half days to burn him down to this oh boy they are fucking wow there's still i guarantee still uh fragments yeah there's some things they can identify him with there's chunks in if you take it to a professional you know if you get a professional cremation there's still chunks of bone yeah like you're not gonna do that at home any better give me a fucking break so yeah they questioned uh they talked to him about why the body was smoking still why is the body smoking and um they said because it took two and a half days to fucking burn jesus christ and uh yeah god damn it fuck so they said that uh denise stayed at the farmhouse between for between 30 minutes to an hour. And then the four of them went to the Tennessean truck stop. I like how the truck stop is a destination for these people.

It's like, where are you going to go tonight? I don't know, man. You want to go out to the, I don't know. How about the truck stop? Well, which one? The Tennessean? Well, now you're talking, talking buddy they got good chicken fingers over there so at that point denise or i won't say denise right well you know it's denise now because

i said it the pelaski rubber company gets a phone call from joyce gaines hippie's wife saying that he needs to be off from work until tuesday he's not feeling well Uh-huh. card to see a doctor and obtain a prescription for painkillers these it's just scum on scum on scum it's a it's a fucking triple decker club scum sandwich they never live uh above the law like no you know what i mean about everything they do is everything's a piece of everything yes everything is a scam and a scheme and a work and some shit so denise then takes the three of them back to elkton and um she said that she was afraid this whole time because she didn't want to get killed like gwen right she's leaving and coming back constantly and like do make this phone call for us no problem like get the fuck out of here

with that another guy here at the christopher johns who's a security guard at the pelaski rubber company said he received a call that sund from someone claiming to be Joyce as well. And he took the message and put it on the foreman's desk. So, yeah. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. Part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of cursing. This motherfucker lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app

or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts that now they asked where the hell i wonder where hippie went at work yeah and pat tells jeffrey strickland that quote and he said this while he was laughing he heard he heard he joined the foreign legion and he laughed and walked away yeah Yeah. Wow. Now, October 20th, Joyce has been gone as no idea hippies even missing. No clue. She's just been gone.

She had a fight with him and left. She comes back to her house, which is the murder scene, on October 20th, a couple days after the murder, to get clothes for her daughter, obviously. So she opened the door to her daughter's bedroom, and at the front of the house, she noticed the carpet had been cut around the furniture, and only the foam padding was left. That's odd. Yeah, that's not suspicious at all. Around the furniture, though. Still lazy, though.

He pawned little pieces of the carpet. Yeah, he must really need some shit bad. Joyce also noticed that an electric blanket was spread out at the foot of the bed. She became frightened, so she took some of her daughter's clothes real quick and left the house. Later on that evening, Joyce returned to the house with both of her daughters to get more clothes. She felt buoyed by having three people there. At that point, her and her daughter noticed that the phone in the living room was missing

no phone no phone so she said at that point she started to notice too that there was beer cans everywhere and like looked like people just been like hanging out partying in there so they were like what the fuck and they also noticed that the comforters from the master bedroom and the comforters from the daughter's room both missing as well carpet comforters and there's shit loads of beer everywhere that's kind of the calling card of the bondurant brothers isn't it yeah if you put a couple like used syringes on the ground i feel like that's wherever they go that's the trail so the daughter said that the the carpet in her room had been cut out around the furniture as well she also said her bed looks slept in and that a blanket was at the foot of the bed that

was normally pulled up a jewelry box. Her bedspread and a small black and white television were missing from her room as well. The kid. So they robbed him as well. We've called nobody at this point. No phone phones missing. You got to leave and call somewhere. I would say go get a neighbor for Christ's sake.

Neither of them noticed any blood or signs of a fight, though. That's one thing. Now, October 20th, when he's supposed to be coming back to work, Ronnie, same day, at about 12.50 p.m., the office manager at the rubber company there gets a phone call from a guy saying, Hey, it's Hippie here. I'm going to need a little more time off here. I'm still a little under the weather, and my mom died. Somebody does a great Hi hippie here. Yeah. I'm going to need a little more time off here. Yeah. I'm still a little under the weather.

And my mom died. Hippie impression. And my father's got gout. And you know how it is. Right. So this guy said, well, hold on. I'll transfer you to the plant manager. And at that point, they just hung up the person.

You tell him. This guy who knows hippie said, in his opinion, it wasn't hippie on the phone. And so he placed a note in his file. Oh, hippie or not. Question mark. Fucking, you know,

didn't know. Wasn't here today. Yeah. No call, no show. So according to his time card, he worked Friday, October 17th,

and then he was scheduled to work Saturday, the 18th. He didn't show up. And then he quote was called in by his wife for the next two days. And then he called scheduled to work Saturday the 18th. He didn't show up and then he, quote, was called in by his wife for the next two days and then he called in. His paycheck dated October 17th was endorsed on the back with the signatures of himself

and of Pat, which is weird. The check was cashed on the same date, October 17th. So he must have cashed it with Pat's bank account possibly. He used that. I don't know. But his final paycheck dated the 24th was never picked up. October 22nd, two days after Joyce came over, saw all the carpets cut up and everything.

Ann McGill, who is Hippie's sister, she went to Hippie's house in the morning and saw that the house had been burned down house is gone house has been burned down um yeah she had gone the day before and looked for hippie but knocked and nobody answered said the house was in disarray that day he saw hippie's boots which he always wore everywhere weren't were still at the house sitting at the end of his bed and his snuff was sitting on the end of the table too yeah if a man doesn't take his chew in his boots he's not gone that's what that works he's there somewhere so and that's

when she left that day came back again and the house was burned down so there was that that's the the fire department received a call at 11 47 on october 22nd 11 47 p.m and there was flames coming out of a bedroom window that were located on the left part of the house the fire was put out before it spread to the rest of the house however everything was charcoaled and fucked up in the house's room now so the uh they think the fire started in the bed located in the front room and uh that's how that worked now uh the next day denise goes to the rubber company asking pat for more money and pat said you know anything about hippie's house and she said no and he said you should drive by it and see well i got a surprise so she did and she went oh shit yeah so then she goes back to the rubber plant at 10 45 to pick him up from work she can run she's got a car yeah run she's she's just as

culpable at this point right yeah i would say yeah the whole time now always, always. Jesus Christ. While she's waiting, Pete shows up. And when Pat comes out, Pete tells Denise how he's the one who set the fire. He said, yeah, I took a candle and I set it in the middle of the bed in the front bedroom of the house. And I put sheets around the lower part of the candle so when it burned down, the sheets would catch on fire. Yeah. So that's what he did. Not a bad plan. It's better than gasoline everywhere like we've seen

it's a very elementary time bomb exactly yeah you might as well put a cigarette in a thing of matches did one of those so he said that this would give them time to get away before smoke comes pouring out everywhere so um yeah that's how that worked now the wallet ever wonder what happened to pat's wallet this whole time is Where the hell is it? The whole thing that started this? Well, about a month before Hippie disappeared, which is about a week after the wallet went missing, William Wade Bass, Billy Wade Bass, Billy Bass. Billy Bass? Big Mouth Billy Bass. It's the Big Mouth Billy Bass there.

It's the name of the thing you take me to the river and put me in the water thing. It's the name of the thing you take me to the river and put me in the water thing. So he said that he saw Hippie and Pat that night at the Western Lounge, which is where they hang out. Bass noticed a wallet on the floor that night and picked it up. He took it outside. Outside, he realized that the wallet belonged to Pat, but he also saw that there was cash in there and a pre-endorsed check, so he stole it and threw the wallet away. Billy Bass. Hippie never had shit to do with the wallet, didn't know anything about the wallet. It's all Billy Bass.

It's all big mouth Billy Bass over here, fucking everything up. But his mouth wasn't big enough because he didn't tell anybody. So they're doing an investigation, obviously. People are disappearing all over the place, and they all seem to center around this shit here. Lane Roberts is a detective sergeant for the police department in Pulaski. He investigates the fire, obviously, and he's investigating Hippie's disappearance. He wasn't reported missing until after the fire was put out and everything, until the next day. Then they were like, hey, was there a guy in there?

No. Well, where the fuck is he? His boots are gone there but he's not what's going on would it have behooved them to uh put his ashes in the bed you know what i mean right just a big pile of them wow he burned right up he burned right up the whole rest of the house is just slightly burned but the bug corpse just to cinder that bed got real hot real fast and went out man them sheets is dangerous boy i tell you something never bought cheap sheets let me tell you right now that's the problem you got about good quality sheets don't buy those better homes and gardens ones no oh hell no now so fuck man um they said that uh they talked to to some people here. Lane Roberts, like I said, he's the investigator.

He says that Pat told him that he took Hippie, because he talks to Pat, he took Hippie, who was drunk, home on October 17th after they got off work and did some drinking. Pat said that he then stopped by the Corner Canteen for some drinks and then went home to Elkton. Some drinks, some hot sauce, you know how it goes. So he said that they talked to him again, and he gave a similar statement. He also said, Pat added that Denise, his wife, obviously, and Hippie went to the bank together on Thursday to cash his check. But that's not true because the check was cashed on the 17th, not the 16th. Or it was issued on the 17 17th not the 16th right so or it was issued

on the 17th not the 16th so also um he says that um you know he talks about he heard about the fire and he told denise i told her she should look at the fire that's crazy his house burned down so enter jerry dicky fire detective oh jerry jerry Dickie Fire Dick in the house. Fire Dick is a good nickname. Unless you have, that says you have VD, though. I was going to say, that says, I come out the house, fire come out my dick. That's what I'm trying to tell you. That's an Eddie Murphy joke. So Jerry Dickie here, he's an investigator with the state fire marshal's office.

He's in charge of the fire investigation. He ruled out accidental causes and determined the origin of the fire was in or around the bed or front bedroom. Said the fire lasted about 45 minutes to an hour before being discovered. There, Dickey and Roberts then get together to investigate. They interview several people, including Denise and Pat and everything like that. to investigate. They interview several people, including Denise and Pat and everything like that.

Denise told them that Pat came over to her apartment immediately after work on the 17th, didn't leave until 2 or 3 o'clock a.m., and the fire took place at like 11.45.

Couldn't have been him. Then they talk to Pat, and here's his statement. Would you like to hear? Oh, this is going to be so good. What Pat says here, this is amazing. Just based on his use of the english language all right here it goes quote on 10 17 86 me and denise went over to use the phone at

ronnie's house to call columbia to get a phone put in denise's apartment, C8 Countryside Village. I left my car at Ronnie's, which is a 1964 Plymouth Fury white. Denise took me and Ronnie down to town to First National Bank, then to Ronnie's house. Ronnie and I left in my car, and I went to Dixie Food and got a plate for supper. Okay? A plate for supper. And brought to work with us we also went

to walmart where i bought some toiletries what toiletries does he use not toilet paper not yeah i figure he wipes with his hand yeah he doesn't probably wash his hair and shampoo isn't involved here does he brush his teeth it's no loss i was going to say definitely not floss. Yeah. So he says afterward on 10-17-86, I left. Ronnie left with me, and we went to Village Market. I bought a cold drink, and Ronnie bought a crossword puzzle book. All right. I let Ronnie out at his house, and I went to the Western Lounge. It was band night.

Yeah. Oh, whoopity dippity doo. After leaving the Western Lounge, I went to West Point in Lawrence County. I stayed with my brother Pete on the 18th of October and I called in that I would be late. Ronnie did not report to work that night. On 10-19-86, I was off work. On 10-22-86, I went by Ronnie's house before work, stopped in, and Ronnie was not at home or at least didn't answer when I called out for him.

I did not go past the kitchen. So he went into his house to make sure and say, oh, we found your fingerprints. Well, yeah, I was looking around for him. I couldn't find him. He admitted that he didn't go home that night to elkton he said that he met terry lynn clark his girlfriend at the western lounge on october 17th and took her to the house in west point where he and his brother pete had sex with her oh my god that's his excuse oh me and my brother pete were tag teaming a chick uh my girlfriend over in no murderer i've been out tag teaming all night with my boy

come on now me and my brother tag team my girlfriend so yeah terry lynn clark is his girlfriend jesus he then um so she's an alibi now terry lynn clark because that's who they both say they were they both had their dick inside terry lynn clark is the is the story have been the murderers they yeah they found both of their penises in the same place at the same time and unless someone was murdered right there wasn't me so terry clark put me in jail if my alibi is ever james and i were double teaming so we're double teaming somebody well how about the poor young lady you then have to go talk to and go now this is very important legally now were you fucking those two fat sumbitches at the same time on this night?

You got to go. Now that's in the legal record, her admitting to that. That's terrible. Poor thing. That's not fair. No. So now Pat also said, hey, do me a favor, though. Don't write that down in the report, could you?

Well, I have to. He said, because I don't want my wife to find out oh he just gets real mad about stuff and everything i don't want her to know i was i was tag teaming i have a girlfriend not only that but tag teaming my her with my with my brother last time she found out i had to murder the woman oh man jesus she's lucky i didn't murder denise too so now at this point um they have to uh they have to verify the story okay so they go to verify the story and by the way here is uh they go they go to to uh verify the story here's a here's a back and forth between the a lawyer later and the cop who went to verify the story. All right. Where did you wind up going to try to contact Terry Lynn Clark?

To Elkton, Tennessee is the answer to that. And where in Elkton, Tennessee? Answer, to what was known at the time, I think, as Pete Bondurant's house. And did you find Terry Lynn Clark? Yes, sir. Did you take a statement from her? No, sir. Well, why not?

Because she was dead. Oh, shit. Yeah. She's dead in the bed at the house when the cop comes to see her they found her dead it's in her yeah they found her dead the cop found her dead in the house so uh november 17th 1986 that is and uh they set up and this was they they had set up the day before they had set up an interview with Terry. So they she they were Terry was expecting the cops to come over and talk to her. This was two days before the interview. And then they come over to talk to her and she's dead.

The brother saying witnesses now are not even witnesses. Probably. She probably had nothing to do with it. Who knows? Yeah, they just she just wasn't going to maybe corroborate their alibi. Weak link, they thought. So the brothers themselves had called the police, reporting that she either died in her sleep or possibly of an overdose

while she was in bed sleeping with Pete. With Pete, too, because it's Pat's girlfriend, but he doesn't want his wife to know. So they even lied about that. So Pat told the cops that he and terry lynn had traveled out of town the night that hippie disappeared but obviously now she can't corroborate oh please wake up sweetheart i need your words to save me tell him terry tell him how innocent i am so um yeah uh later on several witnesses would come forward to say they observed Pete shooting Clark up repeatedly with powerful with secco barbitol while she sat half conscious on a beanbag chair the day before.

So, yeah, that's not good. Now, the there's a guy named Carmen Woods, and it's a co-worker of Pat's. So there's a guy named Carmen Woods, and it's a co-worker of Pat's. After Hippie's house had burned down, Pat told this co-worker he thought Hippie had, quote, burnt the house down himself and run off. And then that's what he's been telling people. Must have burned him down himself. himself yeah and um then one time pat said that anybody who would steal from matthew would never steal again and he would make it to where the family couldn't receive the insurance money if they were unable to find the body and then he started to walk off but then he turned around

and said yeah i killed the son of a bitch that's not good um now they said that one of the co-worker who heard that described him as jittery when he said that. And then another co-worker said that they said, quote, wasn't no SOB going to steal his crippled son's welfare check and get by with it? His crippled son. Ain't going to hurt this little crippled bastard any worse than the goddamn Lord already has. You understand me, boy? His crippled son. Nobody going to hurt that my little crippled bastard any worse than the goddamn lord already has you understand me boy nobody gonna hurt that my little cripple i call him i call him crip no one gonna hurt him so um my little pretzel boy my little pretzel boy now uh yeah they also told rodney randolph at another time that um if you cut up a body in pieces and scatter it over four or five states, it's really hard to make a case because there's no body.

And we all know nobody, nobody, no crime, as Bob Marley once saying wonderfully. And that's what they kept telling everybody. No body, no crime, no body. I can't get in trouble. That's it. You just get rid of the body. Fascinating. Nobody, no crime, nobody. I can't get in trouble. That's it. You just get rid of the body. Fascinating. So Rodney said that Jesus Christ, Rodney had lived with them, by the way, when Terry Clark died in the house, Rodney Randolph. in elkton he said well i had some clothes and stuff down there that uh work clothes i stopped and changed clothes and stuff and as i was going to ardmore as my ride would pick me up to ardmore and about that time terry lynn was found in the house so i didn't go back for like two or three weeks to get my clothes to that place to be right now yeah not good so it's at this point here that hippie's wife, Joyce, has granted a divorce on grounds of desertion. She hates him.

She's so mad. Yeah. She wanted a divorce anyway. And she's like, fuck, just because he's dead doesn't mean I'm going to be married to him. Fuck him. She's granted a divorce on grounds of desertion because he died. She didn't like him in the first place. No.

She's not Maury's wife. No, no, no. She wasn't looking. looking where's how he's never not come home never that shit fuck him so spring of 1987 um holy shit denise and pat went to uh went to the house in west point to cut the grass the parents house where they had burned hippie to cut the grass for uh the parents there while they're while they're away while cleaning up the backyard pat found a four inch bone at the spot where he had burned hippie's body yeah four inch bone when they left he just took the bone with and threw it out the window while driving down the highway don't need that no more. 1989 comes along. Three years have gone by. Unbelievable.

They have killed three people in front of other people and told even more people about it. And they're still walking around the streets. That's how scary they are. That's how scary they are. And that's how I'm sorry this fucking police force needs to get their head out of their asses, I think, a little bit. sorry, this fucking police force needs to get their head out of their asses, I think, a little bit. It's not totally their fault, but, dude, there's fucking evidence to be found. Let's just put it that way.

Plenty of evidence to be found. No one's fucking finding it. Are the police scared of them, too, you think? I don't know. I can't imagine they would be. I don't know. Who the fuck is... Is that what we're talking about? This is why we say the small-town police force is because if your police force is afraid of two fat fucks in a farmhouse who have a bunch of drug addict kids around, that's a shit police force.

Yeah. You need to call in the county or the state or something like that to help out because this is pathetic, man. They murder very rudimentary murdering. Yeah. Yeah. This isn't a complicated setup. People don't disappear. They kill a guy.

They burn his house down. A woman sets up an interview to be and they kill her two days what are we kidding me that's so obvious it's fucking obvious so anyway it takes three years later and a completely new investigation they shut that investigation down well i guess all three of them people vaporized yeah they literally said well we can't find we all the only person we know of where their body is is terry clark and terry clark is a known drug user so she must have d that's what happened there's that and then the other uh must have got struck in the light in the chest by lightning like powder and completely just disintegrated evaporated poof done so yeah that's what's going on a new detectives come in here a guy named detective michael chapman inherits the case and he comes across he looks through all the

witness shit and he goes wait wait a second here sounds like denise was around for all this shit and why why have we not brought her in and leaned on her I get why neither of the brothers are going to say shit, but why can't we get her to crack? This is ridiculous. We should be able to lean on this fucking broad. Pretty easy guilting when she's got the crippled son. All of that, yeah. And on top of all of this,

they haven't even been together for over two years, Pat and Denise. It's over. It's over like this is the lady to talk to as luck would have it at that very moment she happened to be dating a cop oh i thought you're gonna say she happened to be locked up yeah she happened to be locked up easy to find her and ask her some questions kind of second best actually just dating a cop you can just go over to his house and talk to her so they do that they talk to her and in exchange for full immunity she starts to talk yeah and uh with full immunity now she's got all sorts of shit to say she tells them about everything um she said that yeah she

did continue to see him uh by the way while she's giving information over multiple sessions, she's still seeing him now. She's making sure to keep in contact with him to keep him close by, Pat. Not fucking him, I don't think, but seeing him. So she gave a written statement on May 1st, 1990. This is after several different kind of proffer sessions here talking to her. So, wow. They said that she admitted that she had lied in previous statements to the cops in order to protect her husband at the time she indicated still she indicated that she waited to talk to the cops because she was afraid of pat and pete after she saw the gwen duggar murder she's

like well i wasn't going to tell about pat gaines look what they did to poor gwen yeah do worse to me you so you participated in that mirror she yeah she got shots in so like that's yeah you're you're involved in that i'm sorry you're you're in a similar position of akib talib like you got shots in while the person was still alive but then someone that you were in cahoots with killed them so you're kind of involved in that at that point you're part of this allegedly with akib so anyway um they said that um she said that they told her that they would blame the whole thing on her yeah she raped them a bunch of times and then killed her she she raped the she raped gwen and put their semen inside her absolutely that's what she made him the whole thing was her idea and then she bashed him with an

axe handle an axe handle and shot her twice in the idea and then she bashed him with an axe handle an axe handle and shot her twice in the head and then gave the shells to pete to play with all the time roll them dice gwenby's gwenby's so they said that denise said that they were asking her because she was pregnant at the time you want to have your baby in prison she was like no i guess not and that was that so april 1990 they go arrest Pat at work at the Pulaski Rubber Company and take him to jail. Pete was taken at a roadblock while in the car with his parents. We'll talk about. He's taken at a roadblock at 845 in the morning.

They're kept in separate jails because they're afraid. Well, yeah, they're afraid. Number one, they're going to conspire together, and if they ever get physically in the same location, it's going to be difficult for the jailers to control two 350-pound guys working toward the same cause. So they said they're absolutely at escape risk at that point, so they move them somewhere else, each separate. May of 1990, after they take Denise's statements,

they get a search warrant for the West Point property to find shit. So they bring out forensic anthropologists, a whole team of them, which they can find stuff. They're pretty good at that. They're going to go through the whole thing with a screen like they're panning for gold or something. And ground penetrating radar and shit. All of that. shit all of that the fire marshals uh trained accelerant detecting dog alerted on an area determined to be the spot that was described by by denise as the place where they burned that's where they started digging um denise shows up later for some reason i guess to point stuff

out i don't know why she's there and uh confirmed that they were digging in the right space the right spot and then she later led the police to a barrel where glenn was burned where they found the only the only thing left of gwen is a diaper pin that she always wore on her shoe in honor of her son oh for christ's the only thing of her that was left everything else thank god she used uh cloth diapers fuck no shit jesus christ i don't know that were on her shoe i think it was like i just no no she used them she used cloth diapers for her baby rather than like pampers and shit no i think she had a pin just on her shoe as like a thing for her kid it wasn't to use on her on the kid's diapers she might have used cloth diapers why would it be on her shoe while she's out doing

drugs if it's not being her kid's ass diapers now i think no i think she's a kid's young i think it's just like yeah i think the kid's young. Oh, still in diapers? Got it. I think the kid's still in diapers. Or she might use one with cloth diapers anyway. But either way, that pin isn't used on diapers. It's the one she keeps on her shoe for decoration. So the presence of evaporated kerosene was identified in one of the soil samples taken from the location as well.

Now they bring in in are you kidding me dr william bass dr billy bass they bring in there's multiple so many billy basses in this place there's more the other was what wade william bass or something listen james those things were big sellers this is dr william m bass dr Billy Bass, who's the head of the anthropology department at the University of Tennessee. It was a big deal. What the fuck? Everybody's got one. Two Billy Basses in this fucking joke?

Evidently. What is happening? Oh, my God. They said this excavation revealed burned human cranial fragments mixed in with charcoal and burned soil. That's what they found they found seven cranial bone fragments that were large enough to make positive identifications on while the other bone fragments were too small to positively identify the area of the skull they came from but he was certain they were skull fragments of a human the larger fragments billy

bass uh testified that the bones appeared to have been broken before being burned, you know, to stuff someone into a fuck, someone who's in rigor to stuff them into a fucking barrel and that the irregular broken edges suggest that the blunt trauma had occurred. He was more than half certain that some force had been applied to the skull before it was burned. Well, it was crushed with a a lot so the uh also based on the thickness of six larger fragments that could be measured he was 75 certain that the bones were from a human male and 90 certain that the bones had been there 1 to 15 years i think you could probably say that with just about anything with relative certain you know certainty i bet that car is 1 to 15 years old what do you think jimmy yeah somewhere from 1 to 15 years probably a hell of a window wow that's a lot that's a window right there man so finally denise files for divorce now in j of 1990, after they arrest him and get all the evidence, then she files for divorce.

She said before that she didn't see any need for it because Pat had told her that united we stand and divided we fall. We'll all go to jail or none of us will. He 9-11'd her. He 9-11'd her. We have to do it. That's it. He told her he put a flag in her front yard. He told her, never forget flag in her front yard yeah he told her never forget never forget now denise admitted she disobeyed a court order allowing

pat's parents visitation of the grandchildren of the grandchild and that a contempt petition had been filed against her she also admitted that she had used drugs only stopping while she was pregnant then starting up again uh up until starting up again up until his arrest so she also the whole time i've been helping you i have been on drugs too that's the other thing that's going on get i have full immunity i need help please get me off these 1991 is the uh gwen duggar trial yeah and um yeah they're both up for this, obviously. And this trial goes rather quickly because they have a lot of they have evidence. They have witnesses.

And also it's the first one they try. And yeah, it works out very well for the prosecution here. They find them guilty of second degree murder because there's no body. They said it's the best they could do with second degree murder. They couldn't prove premeditation. That is awful. Without physical, yeah.

The prosecutor said, I would have liked to have had first degree in the death penalty, but not going to get it. So there we go. Now, during sentencing, Pat issues, he issues his statement during sentencing to the judge.

Got anything to say for yourself, mister? He does. He's got something to say. He's got something to say. Now, this is, you know, hey, I'm actually, I'm sorry for what happened and I feel terrible and all that. He's got a different thing. He says, quote, I am not guilty of any murder. My wife, Denise C. Bondurant, shot Gwen Duggar with her.22 pistol.

I am sorry Gwen Duggar is not alive. Unbelievable. That's his statement. That is fucking wild. The judge, obviously, has a different thing. He says, Some of the most hideous and horrible crimes that I've ever heard of being committed. Certainly in this judicial district.

He called it cruel, brutal and merciless and said, you sirs, the two of you fat fucks may fuck off 25 years in prison for you assholes. And that's not enough because that is the most horrible, one of the most horrible murders I've ever heard in my life. It's it was. Yeah. Could it be any worse? think could it be any worse i mean we've had bad ones but jesus christ that's that was torturous i mean even to think oh well maybe this denise will help me and then have her be like no i'm mad at you too she contributed everybody hit her it's fucking horrible did nothing to make it fast it's all just awful and then it's horrible jesus disgusting so much um yeah uh jesus christ now a relative of hers of gwen's said as long as they're living and breathing and using up good air i won't be satisfied don't blame them can we just all

breathe into their cell and make them make them breathe our exhales just our co2 forever now mama bondaran's got a different thing though old mama bondaran old mama polly polly's got words of what quote my life has been devastated i know my sons are innocent i've never even heard of gwen duggar what oh well since you you live in germany she lived in fucking germany for two years up to that point but two years before that happened three person on this planet i've never even though i don't live on this continent and an ocean separates myself and gwen duggar i don't know or so it must not be true is the same as a dickhead on twitter uh tweeting at people with blue check marks yeah exactly never heard of her never heard of her i never heard of gwen duggar like you i and i know all the people my fucking

son sell drugs to and then rape i know all those people and she's not one of them oh polly that's not the words honey no so then they take him to trial for gains as well hippie gains oh yeah they're gonna try him for that, too. Denise has to testify at this moment in this case here. And when questioned about Gaines's disappearance, she says, whatever I told, they asked, did you tell the police lies? And she said, whatever I did tell them, I probably lied. They said, well, why was that? She said, to protect my husband. And they said, and why were you trying to protect your husband? And and she said because i was afraid not to because of the murder of gwen

duggar and then the court goes crazy objection objection you can't fucking say that anyway so to impeach her credibility in cross-examination they include that recently she's fabricated an application for an apartment lease that was filled out by her, which goes against her immunity agreement, which they also bring up your immunity agreement you have there. Also, a list of money paid to her on behalf of her during this investigation by the paid to her by not only the the Bondurant boys, but then after that, since she's been an informant, they've been giving her money as well since she's been on that. So they bring all of that up. Also, convictions that she has in Alabama and Tennessee, including her juvenile record, information about forging checks and writing bad checks, and information that she used aliases on several occasions to obtain prescription drugs.

Yeah, we know she's a piece of shit. We know she's a scumbag. That's not the point. She was married to Pat. We get it. Scum. Yeah. You think she's going to be an upstanding, reasonable human being married to one of these shitbags?

She was fine with some drugged out young girl being teamed in her fucking house just my husband's doing it too oh jesus i thought it was i was just cooking a nice dinner like what the fuck man so cross-examination goes and they said would it make any difference they asked denise here uh where the body was if there was news about the disappearance of gains and um oh no that's the police. I'm sorry. Oh, yeah, I know. She said that would give them a time limit, I guess, you know, on the police coming around because they knew they'd be back around just like the case prior to this.

And they argue about the Duggar thing again. They said, why didn't you leave and say, well, I've got to go home, folks. I'm not staying here for much longer with your burned body, with your burned body burning out here in the yard like i'm gonna take off since you guys are burning something because i'm a piece of shit married to a bigger one what are you talking about she said she kept saying the same same thing same reason i didn't in the dugger case she just keeps bringing that up then they say would you be surprised to know that in a crematorium in order to burn a body to ashes it takes two and a half hours and 1800 degrees fahrenheit temperature to do that in a confined furnace and she says i didn't realize how long it took or what temperature it was but in order for them to burn the body pat explained

he had to get the temperature really hot that's where he used rubber from the plant he described it at at what temperature it would burn at but it couldn't have been two and a half hours in two and a half days yes he did so then they said you just now said i believe it couldn't have been two and a half hours and two and a half days. Yes, he did. So then they said, you just now said, I believe he told you it took two and a half days. And she said, it took two and a half days. I had already witnessed one before, before that took two and a half days. So she's seen, she knows what a body smells like. And, um, yeah, so they talk about that and they said and sunday afternoon which would not even be a day

and a half later you saw you said you saw a smoking lump in elkton and elkton and she said yes sir and they said that wouldn't be two and a half days and she said well the first one they didn't cut her up and they said she said what's that the first murder and then there's all objections and mitch trial requests and everything like that now the defense calls some witnesses too they have some witnesses Karen McCloskey or Catherine McCloskey uh she is a neighbor of Pat and Pete and she said she saw she saw Gaines oh no she's a victim of Gaines I'm sorry she said she saw Gaines mowing his lawn on October 20th, so he couldn't have been dead then. This is all bullshit.

I saw him two days later, and I also saw a 200-pound man in an old white car drive up to the house around 5 p.m. on the day of the fire. The man went into the house, stayed a few minutes, and then left. This guy and his old shit of a 200-pound man, not a 350-pound man. Small man in the same car. I saw a different guy start the fire. Then they, yeah, also a detective then said that after talking with McCloskey on October 26th, he walked over to the victim's yard to look at the grass and decided it was way too high to have been caught on the 20th. So this person is just mistaken.

She has no idea. She's off by a few days. It's also five years later. And you don't remember days and stuff. You don't. That's the problem. A Charles Buster Stanford here. Buster Stanford visited his grandmother who lives across the street from Hippie's house at least once a day.

He said that he saw Hippie standing out in the street with a brown paper sack at 2.30 or 3 o'clock one day during the week of the fire. He was out there. So I saw him, too. He's not dead. This guy's like Elvis. They see him everywhere. This is crazy. Real Tupac situation.

It's a real Tupac situation here. here um so rodney randolph he testifies that he has no recollection of seeing or having a conversation concerning a smoking or burning lump in the yard at elkton he also denied ever being treated at the lewisburg community hospital because that's where he went to get prescription was the story on cross-examination he says that in 1986 he lived with the twins during the week but he stopped staying there after terry lyn Terry Lynn Clark was found dead in the house. So that's another body they're introducing into this case. And the jury's like, oh, now what the fuck is happening? How many people die around these people?

In the fall of 86, Travis Tidwell checked on the Bondurant's parents' house in West Point every week to two weeks while they were out of town. He said because it had often been burglarized and he said that he always looked at the back door and he never saw anything burning or smoking or any sign that something had been burned or smoked next up Billy Dwayne Golden here comes him he's a cellmate of Pete oh what's he got to say he says that pete told him that he quote took care of torture and shooting victim when doug gwen dugger and then burned the body killed her with a torture shot or burn the body uh he says that pete confided that quote they can't charge you with murder if they can't find a body oh boy um he then said that uh he also pete said quote yeah i took care of the bitch is what he said jesus christ um he said that he also heard a telephone call that pete made from his security

cell to someone identified as elvis maybe it's hippie maybe he is alive that's amazing he then said that he told he told whoever was on the phone hold off on doing anything to precious that was his name his nickname for denise at that point and that um yeah that he said that the tennessee authorities will freak out if they have another stiff on their hands so he was probably you know thinking about killing her so holy shit man now pat testifies on his own behalf here he testifies here and um you know says he's just a good guy doesn't know what you're talking about he said last time i saw hippie was on october 17th i took him home from work at 11 p.m. I don't remember that particular night, but I know I didn't kill anybody. And the usual routine was I'd go to the store after work and then I'd take him home.

And that was that. He said he would go to the Western Lounge until it closed at midnight. He said then he thought that they went to West Point that night. The next day, Pat was supposed to be at work at 11 a.m. He overslept, didn't get there till 12.17, or didn't call till 12.17. That's based on his mother's phone bill from West Point. So he's got to put himself in the places where they know he is. He denied killing anyone, though. He said that he did not have a reason to be angry with Hippie at that time. The night he lost his wallet, he said said he went to hippie's house to look

for it and to confront him but he was satisfied that hippie didn't have it he said a week later they were driving around and drinking together like nothing happened it was fine he said that he went to hippie's house that afternoon of the fire to make uh to make sure he would go to work so he didn't get shit canned because i just went over to make sure he wasn't going to get fired he said i called out for him. No one answered. He said that he saw the fire later on when he left the Western lounge. He could see the burning in the distance there. And he said he didn't stop because he'd been drinking and there was cops at the scene.

So, you know, for the most part, though, he said, I don't know anything about it. I didn't make any incriminating statements to Denise or 10 different people who I've told that I murdered this person or said he joined the Foreign Legion or whatever it is, denies it all right. Defense closing argument, uh, Bobby Massey, who is their defense attorney. He told the jurors there that he said that Pat caught his wife having an affair. Denise went to the police and exchanged her immunity on other charges uh for her testimony that's their thing look denise did everything he caught pat having an affair so recently she went to the cops told this big long story that got pat in trouble and got her off of some drug charges so everything

two birds one stone it's all denise very thought mike drop peace out that's what he says basically and she also says that you've heard denise testify that her and her brother-in-law have never gotten along. So you know she would turn him in. And, yeah, said, quote, Pete said I was a – or Denise said, quote, Pete said I was just as guilty as they were. Pete said, who are they going to believe, you or the both of us? That's what the prosecution says. Come on. Believe her. I believe says come on believe her i believe her

i believe her verdict is um guilty of first degree murder oh they got him for first on him first degree murder both of them that one yeah so yeah yeah yeah first degree now the they're going for the death penalty on pat because he did it and And then it's just arson charges on Pete for this, though. So the sentencing comes around and they say that because this is death penalty for Pat here on the table. So the doctors here, they bring in psychiatrists and they say he's got tons of addiction problems that affected his mental and emotional functioning, resulting in emotional instability, episodes of anxiety and depression, outbursts of anger and instances of amnesia. Oh, my. You forget your outbursts of anger. That's terrible.

He's a nightmare and then forgets it. And then doesn't even know about that. That's a dangerous person. It said the effect of stimulants taken by him would also make him hyper irritable, aggressive, paranoid and suspicious. That's those are all a bad cocktail. Yeah, those are all. That sounds like meth. When he takes meth, he acts like he's on meth is what he just said.

Horrifying citizen. They said that he took he took six to eight times the prescribed dosages of some of the drugs and took 10 times more drugs than the average person. Said that in addition to alcohol and illicit drugs, he also abused Halcyon, Dedrex, Proludin, Fasten, Lonimin, Valium, Phenobarbital, Seconal, Demerol, and and uh mep mepergan all of it those are a lot those are all a lot um said that he suffered he suffered from synergism meaning that the combination of drugs he was taking multiplied the effects of each drug he's suffering from taking too many drugs that's not suffering he's suffering from being mad fucked up because he took drugs that's what that is synergism that sounds like something that corporate america sells you it's synergism He's suffering from being mad fucked up because he took drugs. That's what that is.

Synergism. That sounds like something that corporate America sells you. It's synergism. If we do this and then we sell products that match up. That's just what the church calls jizz. Yeah. It's fucking ridiculous. So he said that this would render him unable to inhibit his feelings of rage.

Yeah. Can't inhibit them. A psychologist said that she conducted psychological assessment. She said at the time of the murder, he was severely disturbed. Well, that I'll agree with. And lacked the capacity to conform his behavior as a function of substance dependency and intoxication. She testified that detrimental parenting techniques and his obesity and psoriasis resulted in dependency on drugs and alcohol by the age of 12. He's fat and his skin's dry? What are we talking about?

He's fat and his elbow's a little crusty. So, you know what? I think that he's just going to kill people, obviously. Holy shit. That's the funniest defense i've ever heard he said these factors arrested the develop the his personality development explaining why he's impulsive had difficulty in delaying gratification and his bad has bad coping mechanisms doctor also testified that he was further destabilized emotionally by the stress of his marriage to Denise. She won't even let me fucking rape people in our house.

Jesus Christ. She's a bitch. I'm fat and itchy. Yeah. I'm fat and itchy and she's dumb and bitchy. That's the problem. So, of course, I can't control myself. Bitchy and itchy murder people.

Bitchy and itchy, the combination. So, Mama Bondaranaran again she testifies that pat's a good son and stayed with her and her ill husband at least three to four days a week which enabled her to work and now since they've he's been arrested she's had to retire to take care of her husband and um yeah she said it's very sad please spare my son i can't have him might as well just let him go. Take him. Send him home to me.

She even at one point said, if you release them on bond, they can live at my house. It's fine. And the jury and judge say, you, sir, may fuck off death penalty for Pat. Wow. Don't worry. You won't be fat and itchy very long. It's all right. We'll get that itch taken right care of so september of 1991 they indict for terry lynn clark as well oh fuck oh yeah

relative said quote i always knew she didn't overdose herself she knew her drugs and knew when to stop before going over the edge wow that's ah that's a relative of hers saying that please never never say that about me absolutely not he knew how much he could choke himself while masturbating before he came somebody must have done this to him because he knew just the right amount make him come hard he wouldn't have choked himself this much. That's exactly the same thing, what they just said. Exactly the same thing. But still, it's actually true in this case, but still, because they did owe fucking Corsair. Still never say that to me.

Never, ever say that. They said on the day of her death, the fire marshal was supposed to question Clark about the disappearance, obviously, and never did. So they bring all of that up um everything like that and uh wow um also they said that her uh terry clark who is her another one of her of terry clark's relatives said that she had told this relative back in 1981 about the the twins and said quote she warned me not to mess with those boys stay around them yeah that was. That was that. So they're fine.

They're going to be go to trial for that later. They they appeal the gains, especially the death penalty is appealed for the gains trial based on number one saying marital privilege. Denise testified we were we were still married when all that shit happened. That comes up a lot. Here are the factors that must exist before something's considered privileged. Because people say that shit all the time. Here it is. One, communications must originate in a confidence that they will not be disclosed.

So it can't be other people in the room. Just the, once you involve Pete in it, there's no more confidence anymore. It's over. Two, the element of confidentiality must be essential to the full and satisfactory maintenance of the relation between the parties. I don't know how you'd really put it in that one, but that's fine. The relation must be one which, in the opinion of the community, ought to be sedulously fostered. The injury that would injure to the relation by the disclosure of the communications must be greater than the benefit thereby gained for the correct disposal of litigation. OK, so none of that makes sense except for the first one.

It has to be in confidence and no one else can hear it to begin with because then it doesn't matter anymore. Other than that, I think you have to be a lawyer to understand the rest of those. I don't understand it. The third one sounded like the penalty has to outweigh what the benefit to her would be that's the fourth one yeah right that's the yeah just the the the injury that would injure uh-huh to the relations right by the disclosure of communications must be greater than the benefit thereby gained for the correct disposal of litigation i don't know what that means.

That's a lot. That sounds, you need to go to law school to understand that. The end of that really started to confuse me. That's what I mean. The first sentence, okay, I'm getting it. Then it's like, I don't know what any of that shit means at all. None of that shit means. He appeals on the, first of all, a lot of different jury things. One of them is that the jury is sequestered but they're allowed

to drive to the motel back and forth to the court in their own cars with the radios and all that kind of shit so they're really not sequestered because they can hear the news and talk to people and do whatever they want he also complains that there are not enough women in the jury pool he what are you thanks real empty you don't get it women just they just like me they see me i'm fat i'm a multiple murderer and they're just like i gotta have them they're gonna vote not guilty any fucking time buddy i tell you what now four women were on his jury but he said should have been more because the fifth one was originally on there but she got sick or something and was replaced by one of the alternate jurors who was picked out of a hat who happened to be a male therefore whole things against him

also he's very upset that not enough black people in his jury pool they are not black by the way they're not black no one involved in this is black whether the jury has black people in it has fucking nothing to do with him really i mean he's he's i would say i'd have been innocent if there was two black guys in there were you fucking kidding me yeah they would have said no no no those motherfuckers are innocent no that wouldn't happen yeah they said that although african americans represent 12 this is from the uh right from the appeal here 12 of the giles county population over the age of 18. No African-American served in the position of four person on a Giles County grand jury between 1919 and 1990. That's a problem.

That's a big problem. But it has nothing to do with it. That's a problem. A lot of black people probably would be upset about that. Not this fat fuck. Not this fat fuck. They said that. Yeah, it's ridiculous.

They said that there's all sorts of the way they said the way they pick jurors in this county. And it's real like real fucking loose. No, it's just real rudimentary. Like it's like we pick some people out of the phone book. Some people we pick through their voter rolls. They make sure they've been they've been voting like like what? Also, he says there was no premeditation give me a break so absolutely not no premeditation no way it didn't happen at all it was totally i mean the story that the reason

that he's dead is all premeditation it's all premeditation yeah then uh the they said also the ineffective assistance of counsel because they said the attorney was only making $30 for in court hours and $20 an hour for out of court hours. Therefore, he didn't do the case right. So the salary matters. Yeah. And the judge said, well, that's fucking stupid. trial for him because they said that uh they allowed sequestered jurors to drive to the to drive their cars to and from the courthouse which may have exposed them to radio reports regarding the proceedings so and uh the judge said they allowed a the judge allowed a court clerk to use

a telephone book to select potential jurors after the regular jury pool was exhausted they went through the phone book and pointed to people that's how they got jurors so that's fucking ridiculous none of these procedures were followed they said of any of the what you're supposed to do it's a two and a half mile drive to and from the courthouse they let them drive everything now there'll be more there later on the bondurant parents file a lawsuit against the state because they were held for a minute after when they were pulled over with their son and the father collapsed and had a seizure because they held him the whole thing so yeah they said i don't think they got anything from it though 1995 pete is sentenced to usa they fuck off eight years in the penitentiary

on the charges that he burned Ronnie Gaines' house yeah this is to run consecutively with a 25 year term that he already has so if he gets paroled on the manslaughter

he yeah or second degree whatever the fuck but under the old sentencing guidelines the 25 year term he only has to serve

30% of that before he is eligible and the of year term that he only has to serve 30 of that before he is eligible and the the of the eight year term he has to serve 50 of it so it's a lot less um so yeah pat's still on death row except he's got moved back to gen pop now because he's got a a new trial 1998 uh terry lynn clark that's when the trial happens for Terry Lynn Clark. Finally. They ended up having to take a plea for second-degree murder because they said the absence of a body led to lesser charges of second-degree murder rather than first-degree murder. He is given, you, sir, may fuck off 15 years for that.

Pete is. 15 years to run consecutively to the 25-year term. Okay. So I guess concurrently with the eight, I think. They don't have the body of Terry Lynn? No. Not Terry Lynn. Yeah, I'm sorry.

That was the other one. They were talking about led to lesser charges than that. That was on Gwendolyn Duggar, but then that was part of the judge's speech with that got you this but then this since he's pled to it he only gets 15 years here and they still can't be convinced that there's no way to prove it wasn't an accident if they can get him to plea it's kind of like he could get off if we do a trial on it so whatever um now they this is the explanation when his present term is completed he'll begin serving the new one he has to serve 60 or nine years of the new term before being eligible for parole. So 2001 is the retrial for the death penalty case.

Pat's found guilty again. And in 2004, he is sentenced to death again. Wow. Two of them. Yeah, got a deuce there not not good later on it somehow gets overturned to life in prison and they commute it from death okay whatever at least he's staying in okay uh december 21st i mean okay with that i don't care if they're gonna keep him there great december 21st 2016 pete's released from prison what pete's on the street right now

stop right now this show today pete is on the street yeah to run and hide and barricade your house from the bondurant brothers he's out you're probably he's out just december 21st 2016 released from prison oh my god now. Now his brother, uh, Pat remained at the Northeast correctional complex in mountain city, Tennessee at the time. He's not set for release. If he served his whole sentence till 2069. However,

he was eligible for parole. His first hearing was December, 2019. He is coming up for parole. These two could be together again someday. Very sure. Believable. Very fucking soon. That said sleep tight, everybody. That's our show. He is coming up for parole. These two could be together again someday. Unbelievable. Very fucking soon.

That said, sleep tight, everybody. That's our show. Enjoy. I want to die. Isn't that great? Hide your families. Run. The worst one's out, right?

Take your children. Is it really? Who knows? It doesn't matter. Pete's the more outgoing one so probably yeah i don't know he who the fuck knows they both killed women they're both terrible people i don't know who's worse there in that scenario don't say we're gonna be in nashville one b one beat the guy who beat the lady with an axe handle and the other came and shot her in the head which is worse they both raped her i think they're both terrible people dear lord he's on the street he's on the street babe that's that man

so uh holy shit there you go everybody how's how do you like that story that's one for you pulaski tennessee's a motherfucker huh i can't breathe that is scary shit while jimmy's catching his breath i will tell you if you want to catch your breath while you're doing that, give us a review on whatever platform you're listening on. It helps a lot. Give us five stars. It doesn't matter what you say. Say something nice, though. It helps drive us up the charts.

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Pam and Lamb Ham Jam Band fucking blankets and shirts. We have blankets now, which are cool. These are these different rugs. Oh, rugs, not blankets. We had blankets. Now we have these cool rugs. Get some of those rugs. Get that.

Get your tickets to live shows like September 10th at the Pabst in Milwaukee. It's almost gone now. It's almost sold out. So get in there. It's a big theater and we're going to pack that bitch and have a huge, insane, great time. September 23rd,

two nights or two shows, one night at the Tampa improv. Those are both going to be different shows. And then Orlando the next night, those will both be different shows too but the same two shows as tampa so there you go late night early show got both of those get your tickets right now god damn it come and see us shut up and give me murder.com patreon.com as well as what you want patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get every bit of bonus stuff that we put out. Crime and sports

bonus, small town murder bonus, the whole back catalog, hundred something episodes on there. You get it all for the price of a cup of coffee a month. That's it. Five bucks a month or more, whatever you want to do and you get access to everything we put out this week and it's every other week you get two new episodes

this week for crime and sports uh bonus we're going to talk about brett farve and his little freckly penis that he wanted to send everybody his little freckly pecker and uh then we'll also talk about some other sports sex scandals ones that are more funny like the female golfer who forced her caddy to impregnate her allegedly yeah risk of losing his job. Some weird shit with Gary Payton and strippers. There's a bunch of weird stuff we'll talk about. Then for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about two of the worst people ever,

Charles Eng and Leonard Lake. And we're going to do it a little bit different. Rather than go down the basic thing that everybody does, we're just going to kind of talk about them in their own words and what their own words say about them. Because from diaries and testimony and drawings and everything else we're going to kind of gather something a personality uh a private personality of these two scumbags and it's going to be wild patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get it all god damn it and you also get a big fat thank you from us because we are just thrilled and

humbled that you would give us any of your money so thank you for that speaking of that jimmy who are the most fantastic people in the goddamn world i need to hear the list hit me with them right fucking now this week's executive producers are joey pepperoni nips and ruben barbasol can rodriguez they're gonna be at a show somewhere soon. I forget where. It doesn't matter. Nip it up. Yeah. Can't wait to see it, Joey.

Georgina Eggington, Yeti Shetty up there in Canada. Kylie McClain, thank you guys so much. Truly, it means the most to us. And also, remember, I just wanted to point out that the gal from Australia that came to see us with Tim. Oh, yeah, yeah,y lucy and tim's terrific people thank you so much they were fun to meet australians thanks for seeing us yeah and james made good on getting them drunk which is we did yeah it's always nice to make good we did we did other producers this week are myron Shitstein. Beautiful.

James Jordan, Liz Vasquez, Peyton Meadows, Corporal Carl Kirshner is on vacation. Good for you. Beaver Nicole and Baby Kit. Aaron Steigler, happy birthday. Frank the South African Bird Washer, Miranda Schwarzwager. Ooh, that's a tough one. Happy Hour is back home in Marrero, Louisiana. Brian and Sabrina Matvey. Happy first anniversary.

Hannah Farley, Justine McNeil at Amy Shark's concert. She showed me who Amy Shark is. She is an Australian singer, and she's wonderful. Brian Kennedy, Janice Hill, Sarah Surridge, Kelly Higbee, David Clark. Sent me a Hank Banks rookie card, James. Keep your eye out for that. Adam Wyatt, Adam Hill, Christine Kaufman, Dave Lefchak, rather not say, Tammy Corbin, Nelson Martinez, Patricia Velasco, Seth Standby. I don't think that's right.

I think that was an autocorrect. There's no way their last name is Standby, right? Standby? Maybe they want to say that. Standby, right? Standby. Maybe they want to say that. Standby. Macy Cudd, Ryan Fosna, Sarah Moss Miller, Charlotte Lee, Tierra Hedberg, Jack Frazier, Joshua Clauser, Margaret Deshong, Stephanie Lemming, Kate with no last name, Jackie A, Denise Barton, Sarah Hill, Rope with no last name, Dylan Purdy, maybe of the Purdy paintbrush fortune, Darren Deeks, Shady Grifter. Grace with no last name. Kelly Bell.

Lauren Lockie. Kim Ramelli, I think. Carrie Smith. Night Nurse Kimberly. Deandra Iacoviti. Yeah. Sounds delicious. Kayla with no last name.

Lauren Brumette. Carrie Stisen. Nope. That's not right. Brandy Renee. Aisha Lenore. Brenda Husser. Susan Bormans. Shane Fitzgerald. Kiki with no last name.

Kara Kinney. Allison with no last name. Amy Larson. Philip Kenkush. Louise. Nope, that's Lois. Lois Hanslick. Mary Dixon. K. Elshoff. Dean Bailey. Marlee Langan. Brett. Oh boy. Lindicky. Lindicky. Oh, don't Lind on it.

Lindicky? Yep, Lindicky. Maybe so. Robert Richardson. Thilo B. With no last name. Esther Winklemeyer. Donkey Cronk. Vince McMahon.

Probably not. George Blake. Abby Payette. Bryn Gorman. Joshua Doering. Got some overalls for you, Jimmy. Andrew CZ. Charlotte German. Jermaine. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. you, Jimmy. Andrew CZ. Charlotte German.

Jermaine. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus.

Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus.

That's not right. Adele Lemonager. Joey Mosader. Free Bowl of Soup. Jeremy James. Melissa Baldwin. Michelle Robinson. Cheyenne Price.

Timothy Aiden. Beth Roth. Nope, that's Becky Roth. Claire Beam. Velcro Merkin. Gross. Christy Young. Jillian Whitson. Dale Nussbaum, Diana Renkin, Ian McGuire, Anthony Turner, Thomas Garcia, Carrie with no last name, Sarah Thomas, Justin Bringer, Carl Trader, Nick Augustine, Shauna Connelly, Justin Saad, Sam Johnston, LJP, Brett Waller, Dylan Nichols, Essence of Joy, Elizabeth Little, Sean Lease, Blair Duhamel, Carl Rogers, Sammy K, Kristen Berman, Tracy Connor, Kelsey Hatfield, Jason Sherlock, Anthony Dentler, Sarah Lyons- Bolan, Brendan, oh boy, Dupoy, Dupoy, Dupey, Dupoy.

Dupoy! No, it's a P-U-I. I can't see it, so I don't know. Oh, okay. Not in front of me. Carson Schmidt, Ryan Kocash, Kat with no last name, Lana Hartsell, Liz Giles, Justin DeCroix, Christy Brooks, Allison Carlson, Sarah Swan Tackett, Ray Williams, Mill Dale, Kim Schaefer, Megan Henry, Melissa with no last name, Jessica Schulmeier, Kim Wilson, KP, Mary with no last name, Nicole Areta Katzenreit-Cook, London Reif, Jody Stancliffe,

Donna Exley, Alyssa Tyler, Heather McDarvey, Jessica, nope, that's Felicia, Jordan, Samantha Seavers, Brenda Menke, Scott Hoagland, Bob MacArthur, Avery Shoup, Stephen Walden, Tina Rigel, David Chaplin, Lori Pohl, Sarah Beast, Jenny Soros, Roxanne Cates, Jamie Watson, Ada Reynolds, Carlos with no last name, Maria Duke, Megan Ciafullo, Doug Armistead, Bradley Walter,

Maiden Goldblood. That's not right. Cindy Gumbs, Brandon Blum, Kai Ventura, Mikel Ellis, Teresa Bergen, Anna Cape, Shatsy, Shatsy Olsen, Rosanna Farrell, James Smith, Riley Triggs, Tiff Coleman, Maddie Campbell, Rebecca Burton-Tish, Claire Wingert, Elliot Hines, it's falling apart, Shant Shania, Anesta, Stephanie Hernandez, no fabulation, Wendy Jones, Wyatt Brown, Gregory Ron, Elizabeth Aries, Rachel with no last name, Brandi it off man anesta stephanie hernandez no no fabulation wendy jones wyatt right brown gregory

ron elizabeth aries rachel with no last name brandy janae oh luis gadiel jose lorenzo oh my god megan megan brown just jessica wilson stephanie uh with no last name deanna hayes timu jarvin Timu Jarvan. What? The fuck was that? I sounded like a two-stroke. You said Rin Tin Tin. The fuck did you say? Brian Eichelberger. Mike Jacoby. Allison Wright.

Mulan Yanni. Zach Stubblefield. Alisa Allison. Allison Deutsch. Jeff Gergel. Jessica Bedsall. Steven Vroman. Madeline Barber.

Shannon Scherer. Curtis Blystone. Amy Furman. Jessica Cole. Joseph Tempert, Marquise Ellis, maybe Marcus, Nicholas Pappas, Mark Lapham, Matt Clutchie, Sam Zipric, Josh Ruffin, Yasmin White, Casey Hoare-Smith, Tyler Warner, Jen with no last name, Jennifer Daniels, Margaret Tuthill, Jake Scoggin, Manny Sanchez, Maude Griffiths, Molly Knudsen, Softie Spencer, Lily Parmenter, Wes Kramer, Nicole McCafferty, Christine Nicholson, Victor Marshall, Josh. Victor Marshall. Josh LeBlanc. Josh Dent. Kayla Pierce. Bethany Owensby. Megan Smith. Adrian Taylor. Amy Talbot.

Jennifer Arwood. Etta would know last name. Charles Jackson. Jaron Wiley. Victoria Corson. Lisa Marcheson. Lisbeth Levine. Robby.

Oh, Robby. Robby Michalik. Jock. What? Jake Slommer. Slomers. Rhodes Laura, probably Laura Rhodes, Joyce Herbert, Dan Jackson, Don with no last name, Lisa Witt, Justin Bowen, Rory, oh boy, Rory, Rory, what, Lefesky?

I don't know. Ruh-roh. Ruh-roh. Martha Parra, Sean with no last name, Casey Jablonski Katie Long Corey would know last name Sarah nope that's Sal Salamander Salamander

Catherine Simmons Gabby Galentine Jamie Sess Schlegel Evan Adair all of our patrons and everybody that comes to our live shows thank you so much

thank you everybody so much you're amazing from the bottom of our hearts it's been a wild this was a packed story this was like a sausage where the casing was popping like a 350 pound twin sausage pow and fucking fennel seeds take your eye out that's how it's going on right now

so if you want to follow us on social media as people as humans not as a show you can do that also just go to the site shut up and give me murder.com and follow the links or just google search small town murder podcast host there's only two of us you can't miss us that said thank you for everything thanks for hanging with us hope that you are less horrified than we are that this man is on the streets and And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music.

Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.