Small Town Murder - #320 - Nightmare At The Pig Farm - Mio, Michigan

Episode Date: September 29, 2022

This week, in Mio, Michigan, two long time friends head out from Detroit, to a hunting cabin, deep in the north woods, for weekend of beer drinking, and sitting in the woods. Along the way, they get lost, and end up in several very small town bars, drinking, and angering some locals. When the pair disappear of the face of the earth, police have no clue what happened to them, until a tale of a set of brothers who terrorize the local people, and threaten to feed them to the pigs. Not to mention the unnavigable maze of their family tree, where everyone is married to everyone, and they all seem to be cousins! It's a twisted, bloody mystery!!Along the way, we find out that some parts of Michigan can definitely be mistaken for West Virginia, that just because there aren't any bodies, doesn't mean there wasn't any murders, and that when you have to blurt out obscene denials about you, and sexual liaisons with livestock, you're in trouble!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Mayo, Michigan, a deep mystery forms when two friends disappear after hanging out in a small town bar. This leads to a pair of pig farming criminal brothers with a reputation for feeding their pigs more than just Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.

Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another insane episode of Small Town Murder. This is going to be, we have a few in our history. You're Phillips, Oklahoma. You're Rulo, Nebraska. There's just a few that pop up every once in a while that are such just a hillbilly disaster. Sometimes it's just nice people in the suburbs. Sometimes it's whatever.

This is just wild stuff up here in Michigan. So we will get to that before we do get to that. Just want to thank you for everything. First of all, second of all, reviews help. So five stars, whatever app you're listening on, it helps a lot. Head over to shut up and give me murder dot com right now to get all first of all, your merchandise, everything from bath mats to coffee mugs we got it all there not only that get your tickets to the virtual live show oh that's right only two more shows going to be left for the rest of the year here and they're both they've been sold out for two and a half years in texas and oklahoma so this is our last virtual live show until 2023

when we'll have regular live shows and probably virtual. It is October the 27th. Halloween baby. We're going to tell a super weird creepy Halloween story. It'll be a lot of fun and that'll be available for seven days after that as well. So you can watch anytime you want. You can do anything you want with it for seven days. That is shut up and give me murder dot com

or moment dot co slash small town murders where you get those tickets. Come join us just like a live show, but you're in your house and we're in yours. And there you go. You're at my house and we're hanging out. So either way, fun stuff. It's a really kind of a social thing. So it's fun.

We can't wait to do it. We're excited for it. Patreon this week is awesome as well. Patreon.com slash crime and sports. If you haven't joined yet, this is the week. Do it anytime. We have anybody $5 or above. It's a cup of coffee.

Anybody with a cup of coffee or above, you get access to everything we've ever put out bonus-wise. Over 100 episodes to binge in the back catalog, in addition to two new episodes every other week. And you're going to get a Crime and Sports and a Small Town Murder, and you will get access to it all. This week're going to talk about for crime and sports the danbury trashers which is they did a documentary on it it's very interesting it's a minor league hockey team bought by a mobster straight mafiosi for his son and they it's a crazy story they basically

play like street hockey and fight all the time. And then there's criminal activity with the father and the mob and there's indictments. It's a lot of mess. So we're going to talk about the adnan syed hayman lee case from serial obviously we'll get into that and we'll talk about what our opinions are on it now that they've let adnan out and everything like that and uh i've studied this more than is healthy for a normal human being to do so i have a lot of opinions and a lot of stuff and a lot of little little things and i have my theory of exactly who did it and i'll tell you who that is i'm sure jimmy's got his own theory there that is patreon.com slash crime and sports and you'll get a shout out at the end of the show jimmy will try hard to pronounce your name properly while probably failing miserably that said let's do the disclaimer this is a comedy show it is we're comedians we are this is a murder show as well there's going

to be murder and we're going to make jokes here and there a lot of them probably because it's a comedy show we want it to be funny but we never make anything up for comedic effect or anything like that and we go out of our way try as hard as we can not to make fun of the victims or the victims families as well why james because we're assholes yeah but we're not scumbags that's how that works so if that sounds good to you on board we go and we're gonna tell one of the wildest stories ever and uh you know if you think true crime and comedy should never go together i don't know what the hell to tell you anymore give it a shot it's not as bad as you think and if you don't like it we warned you that's all we got to say we're all in this together let's hold hands sit back clear the lungs and shout shut up and give me murder let's do this jimmy

shall we okay let's go on a trip let's do it yeah we are going on a trip all the way to michigan okay here we go we're going to Mayo, Michigan. Of course, it's not spelled like it sounds because why is any town spelled like it sounds on this show? It's spelled like those drink additives. Yes. It's M-I-O is how it's spelled, but it's not said Mio. It's spelled Mayo. They also have a town in Michigan I found out that's C-L-E-O.

That's not said Cleo. It's spelled Clio. It's said Clio. It said Clio. So I said, I give up with town names. But I listen to like local news broadcasts when things happen here to see how they say it. That's how they say it there. It's Mayo. Where is it at?

This is in lower Michigan, not up in the above part. It's in regular kind of attached Michigan. To the mid? Contiguous Michigan here. And it's in northeast Michigan in that part, way up in the woods here. This place is rural. This is, we're going to tell you the story and you're going to go, are we in, this is West Virginia episode, right?

And I'm going to go, no, it's not a West Virginia. It's Michigan. I'm telling you, Michigan, a lot of times, except for the first episode we did there, we've been in like the suburbs a lot and things like that. This is nothing like that. This is the hills up here. This is out in the woods. Oh, absolutely.

It's about almost three hours to Detroit. Oh, boy. Yeah, all the way there. About two and a half hours to Sand Lake, Michigan, which is our last Michigan episode, which was the murder parrot. Remember that? A case solved by a talking parrot i swear to christ you got to hear that if you haven't heard it don't fucking shoot wow episode 270 so this is in oscoda county or oscada county who knows how they say it with mio if mio is myo anything is

up for grabs at this point area code 989 history of this town it was originally called mioe okay now let's see if this makes sense to you this is from their website and everything else town was community founded in 1881 originally called mioe myo i guess in honor of nobody named Mayo, mind you. Marla DeRomond, the wife of the town founder, Henry DeRomond. So we called her Mayo? I guess that was her nickname. I don't know what the hell's going on. You could have called it Marlaville or something. You could have done a little better than that.

And there's like other founders like, we're naming it after your wife's nickname? What are we doing here? They changed the name the next year though like in 1883 they changed the name because the the they're like this is confusing let's drop the e let's drop the e and make people confused in a different way let's just yeah because that spelling is confusing as fuck there's too many vowels that make different noises m y o h myO-H, my-o. That's how it should be if you want it to be that. That would be fine.

So this my-o holds the state record for highest recorded temperature. When in 1936 it hit 112 degrees. Really? 112 degrees in Michigan. That just had to be sticky. 1973, they had a big pb pbb spill here that is polybrom polybrominated by uh by fennel uh it's kind of contamination event caused farmers to in the area they had to kill their herds basically oh it was they were they got in the cattle they were

contaminated it contaminated cows pigs pigs, chickens, sheep. A dock worker accidentally shipped 500 pounds of fire retardant Fire Master brand instead of feed supply called NutriMaster. What the shit? They sent, so the people, they fed their animals. Fire retardant. Fire retardant. Yeah, like insulation, basically, rather than what they would normally eat, which is not insulation.

And it ruined those things because now the meat doesn't cook. Yeah. Their normally flammable food is now not flammable. And this steak is- I haven't had this steak on this- It's been on 20 minutes. It's still bone- It's still blood red.

You can't put no color on it. I don't understand. I don't know. I flipped it. That's the side that was down for 20 minutes. I don't understand. I don't know. I flipped it. That's the side that was down for 20 minutes. This bacon is still soft. It's incredible. It's just incredible.

So imagine that. The farmers noticed deformities and sicknesses in their livestock, and so they had to – 35,000 cows were destroyed. Oh, my God. Yeah, that is crazy. and 13 of them were dumped into a clay lined pit in mayo and as of 2014 40 years later they had uh there was still pbb still detectable and blood tests of people in the area unbelievable that's fucking that shit never goes away um what does that shit look like that was shipped that was fed to these things it's got this don't look like the normal food it's normally nutra master this says

fire master but i mean i don't know maybe it's spicy uh my cows like spice what i don't know they just fed it to them they sent us the cajun kind it's that's blackened i don't know uh reviews of this town yeah everybody loves this town in the reviews. There's no bad reviews of Mayo. Here's five stars. Mayo is a small town and has a lot of characters. Well, that sounds terrifying to me, doesn't it? Characters, yeah.

Sounds like a sitcom. That's old Bob, and that's, you know, we call him Hawkeye, like I had in my town. You know, there's those characters. Yeah. He only wears one strap on his overalls and never ever buttons the other one. I don't understand it. Most of the people here are friendly, but there are not many people here all in all. Most of the people in my neighborhood are part-time residents who live down in southern Michigan or northern Ohio.

And this is a lot of people have like their hunting cabin up here their weekend place up here to come hunt and shit like that that's a big deal in michigan like people having a second like a lake house or a cabin up in the like people who like a middle class people have like a cabin up in the middle of nowhere in michigan it's that's like a big really the midwest really the more more people in the midwest have have that as like that's your level of success to have that second place that's like a getaway. Take the family for some recreation type of deal. Camping cabin somewhere. Here's five stars again.

I have lived in Mayo my whole life. I was born and raised there and I love this town. It's a great place for kids to grow up and become successful adults. There's nothing here. There's nothing here. I don't know what they're talking about. This town, there is not all that much to offer, but it's a safe environment for kids to grow up and make lifelong friends. The school is pretty small, but it allows children to have one-on-one interactions.

There's a lot of allowing here. One-on-one interactions with teachers and classmates to learn as much as they possibly can yeah when they're not allowed yeah when there's six kids in the class you can really give them individual attention i feel like you're not allowed to do that in indianapolis it's illegal totally illegal it allows this and it allows that this town there's not all much but but it is this okay population 1905 people that's kind of the whole area too that's tiny yeah it's small that's like the whole all these woods and everything else around here it's a few more males than females actually which is different but it's a like it's all outdoors hunting shit so this this is a place where a guy will get like his

second divorce and snap and just move up here and like sit in a fucking cabin for five years to get his head out of his ass. And that's a place like that. Just me and my friend and my brother. We're just living up there drinking beer every night. And it's just I needed it to clear my head. Like, that's what's going on here. Median age is a forty nine or forty two point nine, which is a little bit older than the norm. There's a lot of people in the 55 to 59 range.

So that's your thrice-divorced man. Yeah, that's the fuck it guy. They should change this to fuck it Michigan. Fuck it Michigan. I'm going to hunt for my food. Whatever I can't catch, I'll replace with Dinty Moore. That's how that goes right here. That's it and that's all.

F-U-Q-I-T, Michigan. I got a can of chili con carne and I'm good for the weekend. I got tamales in a can and it's delicious. It's going to be good. Some sardines, things are going to be fine. Maybe get me a buck on Monday. So family here, type of stats here, it's a little bit less married than normal. And 25% are single single

with children which is a higher ratio racially here it is 95.7 percent white yeah in the woods in northern michigan who would have thought weird weird uh one percent black uh 0.0 percent asian 1.5 percent hispanic so it's just white It's very white. It's Kid Rock's band. Yeah, they have cabins up here probably. Religion in this town too. These are people who have abandoned society for the most part. So 28.3% religious. They're like, I don't need your stores.

I don't need your traffic. I don't need your God. I don't need nothing. I need my cabin and my dinty more. That's what I'm all need now. So here it is, 9% Catholic. That's what I'm all need now. So here is nine, 9% Catholic. That seems to be the highest one.

0.0% Jewish. That's not happening here. Um, politically in this County last election, 27.5% Democratic, 71% Republican, 1.5% independent. The median household income here,

20. This is for the whole household 26 729 a year here what the fuck man yeah very nice normally about 54 000 so that is less than half that's low obviously or it's about half um very broke here cost of living 100 is normal it's average here it's about 74 the housing is the low thing though median home cost here 83 100 well that's like 20 grand you can't even do that it's because they're all like weird tiny cabins that's what all the housing is here these weird yeah it's it's all like log it feels like you're in another century we're looking at the real estate in this place. So in case you want to move to another century, we have for you, damn it, the Mayo, Michigan Real Estate Report.

Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $705, which seems like too much anyway, but it's way less than the national average. Here's a two-bedroom, one-bath, 592-square-foot abandoned hunting cabin. That's what it looks like. It looks like somebody's grandfather died and left it, and they were like, oh, he's got a cabin. Where? Jesus, what a shithole. I don't know. Sell it.

Just put it on Zillow. Why would I go up there? I'm not going up there. That place is disgusting. Just raise it on Zillow. Why would I go up there? I'm not going up there. That place is disgusting. Just raise it or sell it if you can. It looks like no one's been there for years. I mean, years. It's awful.

$35,000, though, for that. That's a pretty sweet deal. I mean, if you want a place just to rough it for the week, it's better than a tent. Yeah. It's got a roof and walls, so you got that covered against the weather. A trailer is $35,000 anyway, like a travel trailer or a fifth wheel or some shit. Yeah. It's got a roof and walls, so you got that covered against the weather. A trailer is $35,000 anyway, like a travel trailer or a fifth wheel or some shit. Yeah, if you live in southern Michigan, you want to get up away in the summer for the weekend, this is a good place for it. Take your car.

You don't have to drag anything. Here's a one-bed, zero-bath shit bucket, apparently, or an outhouse or something. 980 square feet. It is a log cabin that is only framed on the inside. There's no, like, walls. It's just framed. No, no, there's a floor, but the walls are just framed. Like, there's no drywall or anything like that.

It's raw. It's not done yet. Put it that way. $129,000. All the potential in the world. You could make it anything you want. It could be the Taj Mahal if you really put your effort into it. $129,000, huh?

$129,000 for that. Then I found this is like your fancy hunting cabin. This is your hardcore shit. Oh, you've done well for yourself. Yeah. Four bedroom, five bath. T-bowl for each and every... T-bowl for all the b-holes here. 3,011 square feet.

Huge cabin. It's a big, fancy cabin. Big, beautiful deck with a fire pit. It looks like where they would send people to compete for something on a reality show. That's what it looks like. Like, we're going to put you in the woods. And then by the end of it, one of you is going to get hepatitis from Brett Michaels. That's our show premise. But you're all going to live in a house in the woods. One of you is going to be given a insulin. is going to be giving them insulin. Yeah, that's pretty much how it's going to go here. 13.9 acres it's on also. Holy shit. Big property on top of a hill, $640,000 for that.

Oh, I was expecting you to make me bid on that. That sounds great. That's very reasonable, actually, for what it is. It's real reasonable. It's not bad. Things to do here. Okay. Now, we have the Ausable, A-U-S-a-b-l-e ausable say again a-u-s-a-b-l-e

so a-u-s-a-b-l-e ausable i don't know it's a festival river festival here um yeah i don't know if that's a river i assume it here. Yeah, I don't know if that's a river, I assume. It feels like the name of it should tell me something. I don't know what the fuck that means. I feel like that's the river, and they're having a festival at that river. The Aucible River Festival, I feel like, is what it is. They should really emphasize. Yeah, I get it. So I don't know what's going on here.

There's a car and truck show. That's nice. Okay, that's cool. Everyone likes that. They have classic, modern, and muscle. here. There's a car and truck show. That's nice. Okay, that's cool. Everyone likes that. They have classic, modern, and muscle. Sure. You can do what you want there. They have registration for the Spikes Challenge events.

I don't know what that is exactly. You lay on them? They have fledgling races and mentor races. I don't know what that is. Okay. Like some old guy who helped guide you through life. Now you're going to embarrass him in the street by racing him take that grandpa yeah uncle frank you pussy catch up i'm 84 years old jesus christ showed me how to change oil but you can't put one foot in front

of the other i bought you your first car stumbling behind you um yeah you have to do that there's also rock and rest you can rock and then rest i guess at the nature center this is for this is a quiet place to change diapers that's what it literally says the rock and rest you can go rock and then come in here and clean some shit up and that's a rest apparently it's a nice rest um oh boy the hup race i don't know what the fuck that is what's an hup beats the shit out of me i don't know um time trials for the osable river canoe marathon so there's a canoe marathon i don't know how far you have to get for that you gotta uh what does it qualify i guess so it's well that's the qualifying so you see where you're placed. How many people come back drowned out of that? We hope to get 80%, 90% of them back, but you never know.

Then, finally here, going into the evening at 4.30 p.m., the best time slot to go on for entertainment, obviously, is a band called Aldrich. I don't know who that is. Followed by Oh Brother Brother Big Sister after that, and then closing out the night with the headliner, clearly, Hey Cuz. You know those are all love songs, too. Hey Cuz, you're looking good tonight, I'm going to have sex with you.

Two-thirds of the bands are talking about relatives i'm not surprised at that that's what i mean oh brother big sister oh brother yes big sister that's what this is wait till you hear what goes on here i'm telling you it's a fucking disaster man it's wild um then there's the next day there's more shit obviously um they have um canoe marathon that day canoe races marathon races um they have limelight will be performing there yeah from four to seven then they're gonna have the ross common steel syndicate band what the fuck are you talking about this is all local shit kevin b klein will be there so you know it's not the actor coming through just in case you're what really that kevin klein no no no no no no no not at all did you say kevin klein or calvin what was

that kevin b klein oh i don't know who that is. And then that night, we're going to also have A.C.D.C., which is an all-female A.C.D.C. cover band, obviously. Yeah, I got it. In case people were confused. And then it's closing all up with the Jabbo Billman Band. A.C.D.C. should certainly be headlining no no the jabbo billman band will be the ones uh apparently headlining this oh boy you can't nobody puts jabbo in a corner that's how this works jimmy and then the next for nobody the next day there's a quote duck dump i don't know what the fuck that is oh that sounds gross You dig through duck shit to get to the prize?

I think so. A couple of entertainments here. They have the Love Thug on. Following Love Thug, the Family Tradition Band closing it all out. Yeah. You got to get somebody that plays all fucking Hank Williams and sounds nothing near like him. Thank you. Wow.

The Family Tradition Band. How many children are in that band i don't know but it's all hank williams songs so it doesn't matter i feel like that's like partridge family songs that like fucking some weird traveling family of smiley kids who are being molested in the fucking rv you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Sweaters. I don't like the sounds of this at all. The family tradition band. Lots of potato sack races. Yeah, all sorts of stuff like that.

I think it's creepy. Put it that way. So either way, crime rate in this town, what we're, of course, interested in here, property crime, you would think would be, this whole town sounds like it'd be a wild place but property crime right at average right at the national average which it should be lower honestly because there's nobody here so i don't know what they're stealing and then violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime is just below average which okay that's fine you should get that uh that said we got to get into this because it is quite the twisted fucking

tale let's talk about some murder what do you say all right let's do this okay um there's some shit in here i gotta give credit to an author here uh darker than night is the name of the book by tom henderson so there's some details from there and don't like that title at all oh boy is this crazy shit um i don't even know how to get into this man okay let's start right at the top november 1985 let's start there introduce you to a couple individuals first of all is brian and i don't know on on gin agnan agnan uh o-g-n-j-a-n onion uh o-g-n-j-a-n brian look at me brian is his name yeah uh brian oh that's his last name that's his last name first name brian which is great because i can say that so that's terrific i can read brian and know what the fuck that is yeah i can identify that so um 27 years old in

1985 is brian um he's There's two sons in the family. He's the youngest one. Not a big guy, 5'8", 175 pounds. Typical 1985. He's got the brown eyes, brown hair, mustache, 1985. 1985 kind of guy. Works as a mechanic for Michigan Bell. How old is he?

27. Yeah. Yeah, works as a mechanic for Michigan Bell, How old is he? 27. Yeah. Yeah, works as a mechanic for Michigan Bell, which I think is the phone company. I believe it is also. He's probably working on the fleet. Yeah, I would assume on the fleet or whatever their other shit going on is.

So everybody says this guy is a real perfectionist. Everything has to be just so. That's what I want my mechanic to be. I love that in a mechanic. You want the anal retentive mechanic. Fuck love that in a mechanic like you want the anal retentive mechanic that's the guy you want where he's like i didn't know so i did this and it's i checked that too and so i tightened this and made that now yeah he'll do extra work that you didn't even pay him for just because he can't not do it mechanics should have you have a gander in

their toolbox uh before they let you let them work on your car because if it is a mate if all the sockets are we're supposed to hire that guy yeah that guy will make your car grease cleaned off the wrenches shit like that yeah you want that guy fucking disaster in there take it down the road yeah that's a good point that's a good point they always said like in the books i always read about like old hell's angels they'd be scumbags to the utmost degree they'd be you know have covered in feces and everything else but boy when they would fix their bikes up and shit the tools would be spotless put in everything and they kept that shit right so don't trust trust them with your daughter but trust them with your motorcycle they'll take care of that yeah so if they don't steal it that's another

problem but that's a whole other issue so either way he's a perfectionist um he's got a girlfriend named janice um and um he's had perfect attendance at work like he's he's mr studious this guy brian always is uh he doesn't like the other thing too he might have a little bit of an ocd thing because like the walls in his home have nothing on them no he doesn't like clutter so his walls are bare no decorations doesn't like shit on the walls no because it's a what is that it's a cleanliness thing it's a no i like it yeah it's a that's a it's an ocd thing yeah some people are like that it's weird yeah absolutely there's a lot of people like that i've known people like that so, yeah, he would he refinished them and made them all nice. And he didn't want to put holes in them at that point.

So he's like, the walls are all nice. Don't fuck them up with holes. That's fine. His father said he's always building things. His father's a retired Chrysler worker. He lives in Detroit, by the way. He's not from Mayo. Both guys will talk about the

front here from detroit they live in detroit um he said about his father uh this guy is something i bought him a toolbox when he was 10 years old while other kids were playing baseball he was running go-karts up and down the street hell yeah that's my father is what he just described my father was like literally fixing cars when he was 10 he had a car when he was 11 and he used to drive it around the yard like he because he fixed it up. Yeah, that's one of those guys. So it's funny. Now. Now let's talk about another guy, David Till or Tile.

T-Y-L-L. I don't know why I can't pronounce anybody's name this week, but the town names till David Till. So we got David and Brian. He's also 27 and he is brian's best friend here now um david totally different background too he's one of 13 children jesus one of two and one of the youngest of two and one of 13 is a my god oh wow um he's a tall thin guy like we said brian is a short guy and kind of not short and fat but just you know short and a little bit stockier and then this and i are the exact same size that's

yeah a little it sucks a little stockier this is not fat but yeah and this guy's 6 to 175 pounds well so if you had two inches and 20 pounds you got me so yeah that's what they look like walking around too that's what everybody says there we'll talk with comments um he's a little bit different he's got short brown hair and a beard the tall guy's got the beard they like flip it though in this one uh he's married and he works as a machinist for his father-in-law this guy we'll talk about that everybody says he's a real sensitive guy. He's a nice guy. He's just like a good guy. His mother, Catherine, says, quote, this is from a little league. He pitched in a little league game when he was a kid.

His mother, Catherine, said he was striking out everyone. He told me after the game that after a while he was trying to put the ball in there so the kids could at least hit it because he felt bad for them oh even though he was dominating so yeah it's a certain personality type that isn't even like i'll stick it up your ass in sports you know um yeah she did says everybody looks up to dave dave's kind of um dave's kind of the guy yeah he's always like the foreman of the work crew and stuff like that he's kind of a leader. And then the other guy is kind of more OCD and perfectionist type of deal. And machinists kind of have like a team too because you have to get things from somebody to do your job, whereas a mechanic can just do everything all alone.

You can put him in a corner. Yeah. So their mother too was a full-time nurse, had 13 kids, and went back to work as a nurse, Catherine said. Wow. That's a tough life, man. Whew. Nursing and having 13 kids. Imagine being a nurse all day, then coming home with 13 kids.

You'd be like, oh, shut the fuck up in here. I mean, it's a natural progression. I guess she's been nursing forever. Yeah. Well, can I do it without a kid hanging on my tit? Perfect. So she said of all 13 kids, David was always the most level-headed out of anybody in the group. The easiest.

He's the adult of the children. So growing up, David and Brian grew up together. Really? Yeah. They made friends from the time they moved in. Brian moved to the neighborhood in the east side of Detroit in the fourth grade. And they became friends right away. to the neighborhood in the east side of Detroit in the fourth grade.

And they became friends right away. They were both Boy Scouts at Troop 66 Boy Scout meeting here at the St. Raymond's Parish in northeast Detroit. Yeah, they were good friends all through school here. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, andbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is

part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy

tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great.

A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes,

you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They went to Catholic school through the ninth grade, then to a public school. They did it all together. They graduated in 1976. They did everything. They hung out. They went out 21st birthday or 18th birthday at the time.

They went out drinking together. They picked up girls together. They double dated all the time. They were an inseparable type of uh type of deal there um even as they grow up they never get they never no distance grows between them from high school right through when they're 27 they're still best pals they still live in the same area you know so it's they were able to keep in touch and shit like that so um they'd go hunting once in a while but they never they never killed anything they everybody everybody said like they they were just as happy just they were more scenery viewers that would they like to sit in the woods and drink beer and if a deer went by they were like well i don't know i can't shoot that's too far let's just have more beer and they just didn't want to deal

with the they didn't really they're not into killing anything really they just wanted to go sit in the woods they thought that was fun dave i am sorry we did not get a rack for you it is okay brian it is just your company keeping me coming out here you know this is this is the beginning of uh cheers dave broke back mouth well that's the thing that comes up too at some point which is interesting here so but it's we'll find out okay so they would do that his mother this is david's mother said quote david is such a softy he never wanted to talk about bloody things uh i think things like that i think he just liked to be outdoors and to say he went hunting yeah they take guns and some stuff and go sit in the woods with

the guns in case they got attacked by a bear or a wolverine or something other than that they just sat there looking at shit i don't want to talk about bloody things stop bringing up women i don't like talking about bloody things it sounds like something out of deadwood yeah talk about bloody things like women that's what they would say in deadwood so uh david and brian uh sent like i said spent a lot of time together they're best friends uh when uh dave got married uh brian was his best man when um you know that sort of thing so david's married and then they would uh i guess they would they would team up against the wife and a friend and and uh and his grand dave's girlfriend so the guy would be men against women when they played Pinochle.

And they said they had secret signals they'd communicate with and shit. Jesus Christ. Yeah, so the girls would get all pissed off at him for cheating, secretly cheating. So David is, like I said, machinist. He lives in a nice apartment in kind of an upper middle class area of Troy.

It's outside of Detroit there. Brian is in another suburb here so they're both living in the suburbs have decent jobs have relationships forming they've yeah you know they've grown up just fine basically here uh they're for they're really pretty straight laced too they don't do drugs anything like that like they both smoked some weed back in the high school and after that but they don't even do that anymore. They just have a couple of beers and shoot pool once in a while. That's pretty much all they do.

They work hard. Um, they both work overtime all the time to save up for houses and shit like that. And yeah, you know, they want to have kids someday. So they're saving up for that. Um,

real mature. They have good credit. They, they, you know, save, they have savings accounts and good credit and all that sort of shit here. So, uh, they have good credit they they you know save they have savings accounts and good credit and all that sort of shit here so uh they have a girlfriend wife they decide

this november uh the weekend of november 22nd 1985 they're gonna go on a hunting trip okay and that's because they have this cabin up here david's father-in-law he was the he owns the tool and dye shop where david works It's called DeLand Manufacturing. He's got, I guess, a cabin up there. So the morning of November 22nd, David called his wife and said that, your dad gave me the afternoon off so he could get ready for his trip and I'm going to go too, I think. So we should do that. And he said, hey, you want to go to McDonald's with me? We'll go out to lunch. So there you go. I should do that. And he said, hey, you want to go to McDonald's with me? We'll go out to lunch.

So there you go. I'm going to have a swinging lunch at Mickey D's with the wife. That's a nice deal. So he said he's not going to really, you know, he's talking to her about the trip. He says, yeah, I think we're going to go. I'll go for a night or two. Nothing major. You know, they're all hanging out up there at the cabin.

So it'll get old. Fireball around the fire. It's a nice time. Yeah, he said it'll get old quick. Well, one of them's younger brother was going to be there with a bunch of his friends. They're like 18, so he's like, eh, it's going to get annoying after a while. He said he's not going to need much. He's got his Pittsburgh Steelers jacket.

He's also got a green Army jacket to layer up. He's wearing jeans and a flannel shirt. He said he's going to pack his sleeping bag because the cabin gets kind of drafty at night. He's got a small duffel bag with some socks in case their feet get wet, extra gear, and that's about it. He said he'll be back about 6 o'clock Sunday night because he wants to get a good night's sleep because he's got to work overtime on Monday. Fair enough. So over lunch, David asked Denise, you want to come with us? You want to come along?

Let's do this. And she was like, I'm not sitting in the woods with you idiots drinking beer want to come thanks want to come hang out while i drink beer and hang out with boys that come into socks isn't that fun want to go fireball by the fire she's like no doing that absolutely not he uh he cashed his paycheck on the way to meet her he gave her everything but fifty dollars that he kept for himself to for the weekend for gas money and if he needs to pick up supplies or whatever so otherwise he gave her all the money and said you know here's for bills and shit very light camping trip yeah yeah just a couple of days maybe a night no big deal um so uh david drove over to brian's house he got there about 2 p.m um janice was pulling up in her car, Brian's girlfriend.

She worked for the post office, and she was off that day. So it's a nice house they pull up to and everything like that. Down the street, I guess it's – oh, no, this street runs to there. Never mind. He loved his house, though. He was very proud of it and shit like that. He's a neat freak, like we said. He refinished the walls. When they get there, Brian's sleeping.

He'd worked overtime at Michigan Bell, and he's been – he worked his shift. Well, his shift was 4 to midnight, but he was working until like 4 or 5 a.m. every night working overtime. So, yeah, he was – you know, he's still sleeping. 12-hour days. Yeah, it's a brutal night. So they wake him up. About 3 p.m., David calls Denise from Brian's house and says, You sure you don't want to go?

It's going to be fun. Come on. And she says, No, no, I'm going to go shopping with my sister. Which he's like, Great, that's fine. So I guess he would always ask her to go along, too, if you want to come with the three of them. Like, We'll make it just the three of us then. Who cares?

And anyway, David asks her, you want me to call you later tonight? He goes, they don't have a phone up there at the cabin, and it's a 20-minute drive to the nearest pay phone at the time. So she said, don't, don't, don't drive through the woods in 20 minutes, and you're going to hit a fucking... 40-minute round trip to make a phone call? In the pitch black through the woods, you're going to hit a deer.

Don't bother. That's crazy. Why would you? So hit a deer don't don't bother that's crazy so she said don't worry he's like okay so she doesn't expect to hear from him that night they're gonna go up hunting she'll if he calls sometime saturday great otherwise she'll see him sunday no worries so um i guess brian and janice i guess they had been talking about marriage at this point. Brian had been saving up money. He's got stock accounts and shit like that. He's very frugal as well with his things. He wants to save up money. He works a lot of overtime. He wants a bigger, nicer house that he's looking forward to. So he gets his gear together.

He's got a Marlin.35 caliber model number 336C lever action rifle and a sleeping bag and around his sleeping bag he's got enough clothes for the weekend and they both get into david's uh 1980 black ford bronco okay 80 black ford bronco four speed manual by the way in case you're wondering is that right yes it is uh david has his clothes he's got a 12-gauge pump-action Ithaca shotgun. Very cool. Very cool. So he told Janice, see you Sunday. There you go.

Later, babe. And they take off for a wonderful, I mean, this is a guy's outing, man. We're going to go out. We're going to drink beer and hold guns and sit there. And we're not going to shoot anything. We're just going to bullshit and, you know know eat beef jerky and talk about vaginas you know how it goes one's got a shotgun and the other's got a marlin like what are they different hunting styles i was just going to say i'm not entirely different things that we're shooting yeah i'm not

an expert deer hunter but like in upstate new y, there's a lot of deer hunting. You don't normally take a shotgun for that because shotgun's more of an up-close or a bird. I mean, they make buckshot to shoot bucks, but for Christ's sake, you've got to be pretty close to hit that. That's what I mean. I think you're probably better off with a rifle. I see people going with rifles is what I'm getting at when they're going hunting. It's more of a rifle thing here. So they left here um the tile or tile family cabin is near white cloud which is a small town on the western you know side of the state there now um they have a buddy of theirs too

who was uh supposed to go with them a guy named daniel jacob he would hang out with brian most of the time but his mother got sick and he had to take care of her so he canceled sorry dan and another friend richard musto he said he was going to go too but um a day or two earlier he said that he couldn't because he had to work that day he couldn't get off from the car he was like an auto mechanic or something so david's father art and one of, Archie, were already at the cabin hunting. They'd gone up early. They're already there. Now, before they left, Brian was telling his dad that he's going to win his money back in poker that he lost to him earlier in the summer when they were up there.

And, you know, it's going to be a fun environment. We're going to talk some trash. We're going to, you know, we're going to have a good fucking time over here. Yeah. Sounds like a lot of fun so uh now like we said david has never they go hunting all the time and david has never actually shot a deer which i don't blame him yeah he's never actually shot when he just goes and sits in the woods so um most people like hunters are like they're super into actually killing the deer. That's what they're there for.

But he's just like, I don't know. I just like to sit in a tree. They're like a tree stand and they're like, this is good. I come out here because it's quiet. I don't want to break that quiet with a shotgun blast for Christ's sake. Yeah, it's going to be so loud. Then you got to pick it up and drag it and shit. That's a lot.

Hang it from a tree and bleed it and shit. No thanks. Yeah. Brian's the same way. He just wants to go sit in the woods and drink beer and play cards with the guys that's all he's interested in here um his his girlfriend janice would say about him and david uh quote they seen a deer they wouldn't shoot it you know yeah okay In fact, yeah, he doesn't. Yeah, she is fun. He told Janice that he'd seen many a deer walking by over the years, but they just never shoot the deer when they walk. But they go, well, we'll see a deer walk right in front of us. And we're just like, well, he looks like he's going about his business.

I got a feeling if I went out there to hunt, I'd be looking at it through the binoculars going, shh, don't you dare yeah yeah fucking amazing do you see it do you see it yeah we put deer food out so we can see them and we put camera things a little like trail cameras in by the food so we can go look at them look at them go where do we watch them eat like look at them eating it's awesome we get these big bucks and shit yeah i know i like them they're fucking majestic yeah so what i mean some people some of the people that live up here i think they yeah that's how they survive yeah i think that's supplemental but um yeah just get

protein for recreation it's i don't it's not my thing but i whatever i understand i get it good for you i'm not going with you they didn't even get deer licenses they didn't even get hunting licenses that's guaranteeing they're not going to shoot one. Well, they also assumed, they thought that if you're on private property, you don't need a hunting license, which isn't the truth, actually. The law is you have to take one there. But either way, he didn't do that. So they had planned to go on this trip the previous weekend, but they didn't. That was the opening weekend of hunting season, but they ended up going this weekend now um weekend anyway yeah now people

said though the thing about these guys is um like brian even though he's so orderly and so kind of anal um they said he's also very like uh kind of will go by the seat of his pants, too. He's very spontaneous, which is an odd thing. They said that he was not opposed to just flights of fancy of just going off and doing something. One of his friends says that's the way that's how they were. He said they just go off somewhere. They'd go on a whim and drive some place for two days and just go hang out and you know do shit like that uh they'd spend a couple days living out of their car for just like hanging out in a park or something there's anything wrong with that strange yeah but i mean they're they're they're on a whim they can do that they

don't have kids so if this is the time to do it later on you will definitely will not be able to do it right so if you have like two three kids tell your wife no me and my buddy just decided on a whim to go hang out in the woods for the night. She'll be like, I will stab you in the throat if you don't come home right fucking now. Do you understand that this one has Little League and this one has fucking dance and this one has this and I can't do it all, you cocksucker. You're like, okay, never mind. Can't do that. I'll be back.

Yeah. So David's father, Arthur, who is a retired Detroit firefighter, said they were up there waiting for him. And that's how it was all going. So about 5 p.m., David called Matt and told him that they were coming up, but it might not be till Saturday. Matt and his buddies were just getting ready to leave at that point. So because they said we might not be till Saturday. So they're wondering they might have taken they weren't going to go right to the cabin maybe they're going to go do something else so uh we'll put it this way uh well i'll give you kind of the route so if people from around there

might know um they um apparently several hours later matt and his friends dropped their gear off at the cabin and then headed out to a bar in white cloud so they dropped their shit off went out to a bar they uh they left david and brian a note saying where they'll be in case they got into the cabin and they can come out to the bar and hang out with them they never did though uh they didn't show up at the bar david and brian when matt and his friends got back to the cabin there's no sign of his brother or there's no sign of david or brian at all so i haven't gotten there yet either saturday they don't show up either. Where the fuck are they?

Sunday, he doesn't show up. Neither of them, Brian or Matt, don't show up. Where the fuck are they? They haven't contacted anybody and they haven't showed up. So Matt and his father weren't worried, though. They said they just, because there's no phone up there. So they figure, well, no one could get a hold of us to tell us. So they couldn't be like, oh, we changed our minds or whatever.

The truck broke down. So they must have just changed their minds. They figured, yeah, they probably just decided to stay home. Pussies, they don't want to shoot deer anyway. So anyway, Matt said that they know before this hunting trip was even – when they were talking about this hunting trip, they were talking about going up north instead anyway, like northern Michigan. Further north?

Further north than this. So he knew David was having second thoughts because he said there was too many people in there and all of his friends were going to be there and it's going to be too cramped and all that kind of shit. So now by the time 6 p.m. on Sunday comes when everybody's supposed to be home. Brian isn't home and Janice starts to get worried now. He's pretty meticulous about coming home and shit like that. He hadn't called. She didn't expect him to call. But what the fuck, basically? He's not going to.

What's happening? Like, why isn't he at least here by now? He's very. And the other guys are. David's very responsible, too. He'd call his wife if he was going to be late. 10 p.m. comes around. Denise still hasn't heard from him on Sunday night.

He's supposed to be home by 6. So she's like, this is a little, this is strange. So Denise calls her father to make sure that she hadn't misunderstood Dave. She said, well, maybe because he works with her father. So she said, well, maybe he got off work Monday, too. And maybe they weren't coming back till Monday night. And I misunderstood. Maybe I just fucked it up. So, yeah, maybe that's what it is.

And her father said, no, no, everybody's due first. We all got to be at work first thing Monday morning. Got a bunch of shit to do. Over time and all. Yep. So she called her in-laws. And Matt answered. He was already back from the cabin, the brother, Matt.

She said she asked Matt, what time did Dave leave? And Matt says, oh, about the same time I did. Well, what the fuck, Matt? Okay. He was vague when she asked him what time that was. He was like, you know, I don't remember. It was, you know, sort of. He's being a mensch.

What a great guy. It was like duskish. You know what I mean? Yeah, Matt. I think it was light, but there could have beench. What a great guy. It was like duskish, you know what I mean? Yeah, Matt. I think it was light, but there could have been some orange rays in the sky. I'm not positive. That's my boy, Matt. I was a little bit dizzy.

There was a lot of exhaust fumes because people were starting their cars up, and I was very confused of what happened. But I clearly remember a guy who I think was Dave. I'm not positive though i could i could be wrong but i think he left either a little before or a little after me which could be either the morning the afternoon or even the darkness i'm not positive and now we are best friends so there you go that's my guy yeah and that's exactly what he was doing she freaks out she's like that's weird what the fuck can't he nail down a time? So by 1 a.m., she's freaking out. Now she calls the state police to find out if there's been any accidents or, you know, somebody did.

Was there a hunting accident? Did a car flip over in a gully? Should you look for a black Bronco flipped over in the woods or something? And they said, we have had no reports of anything like that. She couldn't sleep. Obviously, she sat up. Next day comes. And they said, we have had no reports of anything like that. She couldn't sleep, obviously. She sat up. Next day comes.

She went to work because she had to go to work. She got there. Her mother-in-law calls her at work. Her mother-in-law calls to go, hey, yeah, this is Kathy. Just wanted to say, Matt has something he needs to tell you. Matt has a confession. They never showed up at the cabin. He lied to you because he was trying to cover for his brother in case he was up to shenanigans.

For an 18-year-old kid to think on the fly like that is pretty impressive, I got to say. So proud of you, Matt. That is the wingiest of wingmen right there. That is not bad. The bummer is that you did it at the wrong time, but you did the right thing. Exact wrong time. Exact wrong time. This is the problem with lying.

You never know. Someone, it could be nothing. It could be murder. It could be an affair. It could be, we never know. The bummer is we just found out your allegiance in the wrong time. Not great. So she, you know, he didn't want to get dave he didn't

want to get david in trouble with her basically so now um i guess his dad matt and dave's dad archie and their uh they were still at the archie and their dad because archie's the brother right the brother and his dad are still at the cabin and they hadn't showed up on Monday either. Oh, my God. So now no one's seen him at all. Denise calls another of David's brothers. If you remember, he's from a big family. Larry, who was Brian's roommate. Okay. Brian hadn't come home yet either.

And he hadn't called over the weekend. So no one's heard from either one of them. Denise tells her boss, I have to leave work. I have to go over to the troy police department to file a missing persons report so lets her out of work janice calls brian's parents in florida and tries to file she said she tried to file a report with the police department but she's not a relative so they wouldn't take one so i need you guys to do so if all your relatives are dead you can never never be missing, apparently, because no one's Florida.

No one's. No. Well, the parents were in Florida. I know. Yeah. It's fucking ridiculous. They have to. She's telling them you have to file. You have to call and file because you're their parents.

It's ridiculous. So I'm the girlfriend and I live with them. So it's the relevant person to call because I know he's missing. They wouldn't know he's missing for a month, probably. So fucking Florida at 2 30 p.m she called the state police in pontiac again to ask if they knew of any accidents and anything come up anybody come across anything they hadn't janice checks with her bank brian cashed the check he had in saint claire shores on friday so he cashed his check um or the check she she had given him a check for sixty dollars and he cashed that on the way out so the week goes by okay the week goes by this is thanksgiving week

coming up oh no monday and then thursday is thanksgiving from that monday that he's missing so this is a camping trip and hunting trip the weekend before Thanksgiving. And he has $60 to his name at the moment. Yes. $60 to his name. And he is, uh, in the wind. We'll put it.

So over the weekend, rather than celebrate because people are missing Janice, Denise, Matt, and Janice's uncle, Dick, uncle, Dick,

baby, uncle Dick's there. They all drive up to the cabin, the tile family cabin. They're going to do some investigating because the police are just like, well, we'll let you know if they turn up. Like, yeah, we find their corpses. You'll be the first we call. That's all they do.

That's it. So they said that we'll drive up there. Maybe something happened. Let's try to find out what's going on. Maybe they gone somewhere else first, then swung by the cabin after everybody left. So maybe that's why they didn't see him. Maybe something happened to their car. Maybe they're stuck in the woods with no phone.

Maybe there's a note that they left that fell off somewhere, that fell off a table and went under a thing. And we'll look around for it. Who knows, right? Scour. So no sign of them at the cabin. No trace of them. They ask around. They go to the cozy bar, the drift in,, the Drift Inn, and the Highway Bar.

These are the three bars in this white cloud. Jesus, they're all like blowing through names. Yeah, it might as well be the Drifter Inn, the Highwayman Inn, and the Don't Get Too Cozy Bar. Don't get too cozy because you're moving on bar. The Temporary Barst stool bar and everything included that's crazy jesus christ uh they'd show pictures around sometimes people just say no sometimes they go i mean they i might have seen them it's never like yeah i talked to that guy for 10 minutes

so he's like i mean sorta everybody and i look like yeah everybody in 1985 sorta has brown hair and a mustache, so I'm not sure exactly. Those look like a person, that's for sure. That's right. It is, man. So they're like, shit. There's no real concrete evidence that they were there or they weren't there. They can't find anything, basically. They stop by the state police.

They stop by the local radio stations and the local newspaper say can you help and they go sure it's a small area they say they'll put the word out um you know they're and they have no idea this is like complicated area to get around and there's more highways through this area now but back then it was just little roads and some of them paved and some of them dead ends and this is not a real easy area to get around in here. They even hired a pilot. They hired a pilot. The plane was too small for everybody.

So Matt got in and had the pilot fly around White Cloud because he knows the area better than just the girls do. And over the Hardy Dam, they didn't know what they were looking for, but they're trying to find anything. they didn't know what they were looking for but they're trying to find anything they're trying to see if they can see like a black ford broncos roof sticking out of a lake or somewhere parked in the woods in an open patch or something that's your anything basically guys down there with like a fire waving their hands going help me written in rocks or some shit it's anything you know the signal so they do they um. They do all this. They're looking for everything. They see nothing.

They said that they figured they never showed up in White Cloud by the end. They said nobody who definitively saw them. They didn't come to the cabin, so they would have had to go somewhere where people would have saw them. Nobody said, yes, I know those two strangers at all. So they said they probably didn't come here. at all so they said they probably didn't come here they said too you'd notice them when they're hanging out together because they said they were a real mutton jeff pair basically they said you'd know it that one's tall and thin one's short and a little squatty or they're the way that you just notice them together it's one of those deals so um it's worked for us for all these years it's been

it's been going great really it's working for them too they were years. It's been going great. It really has. It's working for them, too. They were just ahead of their time, that's all. Too bad there was no podcast. They would have done great. They could have done a We Don't Really Hunt podcast. Yeah, the non-hunting hunt, the peaceful hunters. The vegan hunters, here we go. No ammo hunters, here we go.

We take our guns, but they ain't loaded. no ammo hunters here we go we take our guns but they ain't loaded man we'll beat the shit out of a 12-pack you know we will man so anyway they they basically um they tried to find them they couldn't find them once like the media started getting involved then all of a sudden there was all these sightings places. People had seen him places, but nowhere they had asked. Anyway, time passes. They don't find him that weekend. More time passes.

Denise keeps checking David's credit card statements, hoping for activity at all. He's in British Columbia or something. He's down in Mexico. Sure. Kicking it, some shit. She'd rather he be like alive and well and an asshole. Down the beach somewhere. Yeah, than dead in a fucking tree. She checked his bank account all the time.

She'd go to the bank, check his bank account. Never a penny less, never a penny more, same balance. So just disappeared. So they're missing. I mean, a month goes by. Two months goes by. Oh, my God. They're missing. They're looking for them.

No leads. A 1980 Black Ford Bronco license plate 447 HRZ. They said, I mean, it's out in this part of the state. That fucking thing could be anywhere. You could drive this thing into the woods, put a tarp on it. Nobody would ever goddamn see it. Put a few sticks on on it you could submerge it in one of the million lakes around here nobody would know like it's it's difficult here so they said if it's in the woods they said it should have turned up by now though after a couple months because they said there's

just so much activity in these woods right the hunting season uh has populated those woods like crazy yeah the sheriff said with all the rvs and snowmobiles and hunters and mushroom pickers, there are too many people in the woods nowadays for it to go unnoticed. With the growth up here, there aren't very many really remote regions anymore. People are in all the regions. And they did multiple aerial searches. and they did multiple aerial searches. They also got the Department of Natural Resources as well to help them because this is from one of the cops here. He says those DNR guys, they count deer.

Do not resuscitate them. They count deer, and if they can see deer in the snow, they could stumble across a large black car, what he said. So they said unless it's underwater and they said underwater be a different story then it might not ever be found um you know they've used some sonar equipment to do some of the ponds and lakes and dams but you can't get to all of it these are huge lakes up there you can't go through all of them with sonar it would take years to do that so um the mother here katherine tile uh dav David's mother, she said, people don't just disappear.

Like, what the fuck? Like, they got to be somewhere. The detective from the St. Clair Shores police said most missing people are found about a time a report is made. He said, I've never had a missing persons case where there was no lead or anything. This is they've never had it where it's just thin air usually it's i i saw that guy oh and then he left the store and he disappeared you know what i mean if you look at like cereal people are like hayman lee was at school at this time yep and then she wasn't but they saw her at school this is just like i don't know she left in the

morning and fuck disappeared in the thin air no one ever saw her again really starting to believe that david blaine guy yeah oh shit he's magic so um he said that's never happened he said everyone says you've got to be realistic but you don't have to be realistic is what katherine says that's the mother david's mother she said you know i don't want to be realistic i want to find my kid right so i'd like some proof of something so they haven't been able to find the vehicle they um can't find the one of their 22 caliber that they had they can't find that they eventually find it in the woods actually pistol yes the 22 caliber which led to a theory that they might have been victims of a man named joel paul hannah okay Okay. Joel Paul Hanna was a suspect in the shooting death of an Ostago County Sheriff's deputy and in the disappearance of a 75-year-old turkey hunter named Roger Walstead. They said that the deputy was shot with a.22, was found, and the hunter was last seen the day after the deputy was shot.

And the hunter was last seen the day after the deputy was shot. And they said this guy fled Michigan in Wallstead's van and then was shot to death a few days later by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation agent. So we have no idea what that guy did in that time because we have no clue. Fucking question for anything. Nope. We know he killed those two people, but that's it. They said that his somehow the turkey hunter's body is still missing as as well as is the gun used in the shooting of the deputy so okay the one deputy said it's just a thought we don't want to blow it out of proportion so far we haven't been able to verify something but

that's the working theory there maybe it was that guy yeah or here's another theory this is from one of the investigators in the area he says uh maybe they pulled off the road, decided to sleep in the Bronco and were asphyxiated to death. OK, that could happen. He said, quote, they've slept in a vehicle many a time. But they said, well, then where'd the vehicle go is the other thing like that could happen. But would they let's pull off somewhere where no one will ever find us and then die and then stay there forever. The car doesn't get asphyxiated and turn into dust yeah that's around it runs then when it runs out of gas it just poof it turns into glitter and the car and the body's inside it disappear look for a pile of glitter y'all everybody look for glitter the metallic part of the paint doesn't ever go away. It's there. That's all that's left of it. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper.

In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee

Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one

and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. So they said, quote, we didn't come across anything to lead us to believe they were involved in criminal activity, which means like somebody would take them out there and kill them. Like they weren't.

It wasn't that they weren't like no hitmen came for them. Yeah. He just said they also asked the whole family, is there any chance that these two were having a broke back mountain relationship not in those words at the time but they said are they having is it possible you told us how close they are for all these years is it possible that they're having a gay relationship on the down low and they're going out there and having a tryst and they could be maybe they ran away together to open up a you know open up a little tiny tea house and in a small town in wisconsin fucking ballsy question yeah and they were like they said not that we know we didn't believe that was possible they both both the women said no they

seem to be pretty into us as women and stuff i mean you never know but they didn't think so basically all their friends said they never got that vibe or anything like that so so you're saying they went out hunting never came back with a deer ever ever hmm that sounds pretty gay i have another question yeah they just like to sit in the woods together you say um they also said that um maybe they just left maybe they could have left they They said that Brian had talked about how he hated winter. So obviously that means he'll abandon everything he's been doing in his whole life. His house that he's refinished the walls on and his whole plan, his stock portfolio and everything like that. Because fuck winter.

Just ran away. What is he, a world war? Yeah. Winter. What the hell is that about so um they said that david also had some trying moments in his uh in his marriage here with denise they actually were separated for a month a couple years back so maybe that's what it is maybe they between the two of them i hate winter i hate my wife. Cool. Let's leave forever. And they've just gotten a fucking Bronco and took off. That's it.

We're gone now. With 120 bucks between us, we'll start a new life. A new gayer, brighter future for the two of us. What the fuck are you talking about? Bad theory. What a terrible theory. No money's been drawn from their accounts. No credit cards have been used.

No new credit cards have been opened in either of their names. That's four tanks of gas and a Bronco. You better figure it the fuck out fast. Jesus Christ. And they say, too, when two people plan to drop out of sight and they're not in a romantic relationship, one of them usually gets cold feet, they they said usually one will take off and one will stay um and they said that's another thing about brian this is the girlfriend janice that's another thing about brian when he wanted to make a decision 90 of the time he had to go back and forth so basically they're saying the father says everybody's got their own theory early reports had them spotted buying christ trees in Cadillac, Michigan.

Like in bulk. Like a bulk Christmas trees. I need a bunch of Christmas trees. They've got $120. That's one tree. People saw them at a craps table in Las Vegas. They were seen at the Oakland County. That's in Michigan. Oakland County Mall eating hamburgers in the food court.

A psychic urged police to check lakes and streams. She felt that the vibrations of water is around the body. That's what she felt. So that's a thing there. Now, here we go. Did they change their minds about going to the cabin and go somewhere else? Now, this is they're talking about roots. So I have no idea about any of this.

This is strictly for Michigan people. The next minute here, they said today, theter reuther freeway runs due west out of st claire shores and connects to i-75 which goes north and to i-96 which goes west in 1985 these two guys could have gone either west to i-75 on the surface street uh eight mile road or if they wanted to avoid red lights and all that kind of shit they could have looped uh miles out of their way heading downtown on the surface street, 8-mile road, or if they wanted to avoid red lights and all that kind of shit, they could have looped miles out of their way heading downtown on I-94

until they came to I-75 or US-10, which would connect them to I-96. So Jason Fuller, our trucker listener in Detroit, is the only person who understands all of that probably. And M&M. And M&M, exactly. So either way, they could have decided to start out and kind of try to figure out decide where they were going are we going north are we going west

and they said maybe they they didn't know what to do they said they got there they could have gone either way at an exit ramp they could have gone this way or that way one way is to white cloud one way is to mayo who knows where they went so they said that um it would have been typical for them to change their minds at the last minute and go somewhere else they just thought that was fun to be like they have their directional on to go right to go to the cabin that they're planning on and one of them will go fuck it just go left and we'll go over here and go fucking awesome and they'll just do it you know what i mean like they said that was kind of how they operated so it'd be kind of fun they said so we don't know which way they went um they said if they maybe they would go north

maybe get a hotel room um they have a friend of theirs that lives up north near mayo named dave gallop so maybe they met up with him sat in the woods maybe they went to a bar check it out so who knows yeah um this is what we know here. Okay. Here's Larry Barker. Okay. Larry Barker lives two miles northwest of Mayo at 820 Cherry Creek Road. He and his sons were hauling some firewood into the house when a dark colored black or dark blue Ford Bronco pulled into the driveway. This is back when they were missing in November. Barker, he said he didn't check the time, but it had been dark out, but not for too long.

So it was maybe around 8 o'clock. He sounds like he's trying to cover for people, too. I mean, it was dark out, but I don't think for too long. So, I mean, any time between, say, 6 and 1 a.m., any time in there. He said by the time later on, too, because he was asked about this months later, as we'll find out, he said he didn't know whether it had been Friday, November 22nd or Saturday,

November 23rd. It was one of the two days, but he said the Bronco pulled in and just sat in the driveway. So he, this Larry walked over to the driver's window and the driver rolled it down. And Larry said, can I help you? And he said,

there were two young guys in the car. One of them was the map and um the guy said yeah well we're kind of confused and the guy barker the guy whose house we're at here he said he laughed and he said quote you got it upside down and he reached and turned the map over and go that's the way the map goes so north face is that way and they told him we got directions from a bar from the bar so we don't know where the fuck we're going here uh they were looking for a road uh named camp 10 that's the road they're looking for he said do you know where camp 10 is which is a road that you have to be local to know i guess it's one of those the little one and the guy told him it's the net told them it's the next paved road down so these are confusing uh directions when there's a lot of little intertwining roads though and when you're when you're holding the map the other way and the right looks like a left

that's the thing and they they even said to the the end of their destination they were going to a cabin off of m55 which is a major east-west road in northern Michigan. Barker tried to talk them through it, this guy. He said after Camp 10, you'd hit M72, which is another east-west road here north of 55. That'll take you to 18, which will take you south to Roscommon, and then from there

you go, it's a short hop over to the 55. So this is like, I would be like, let's just go home. We're going to go home now. Never mind. That's too much. Let's go back to the bar. Yeah, this is like i would be like let's just go home we're gonna go home now never mind that's too much yeah this sounds like in funny farm like go down to the old where the old barn used to be yeah you know like okay so um anyway they bullshitted for a while um larry the homeowner and his sons and these guys bullshitted. The guys here, they said they were super happy to be up here up north. It's beautiful. We're up here hunting.

Larry said they weren't drunk, but you could smell that they had some beer. They'd been drinking. He smelled some beer in the car. They were feeling, they were just happy, kind of happy-go-lucky. He said also you could see a cardboard 12-pack container in the back seat. So he said they were nice guys, seemed like fun guys, nice guys. They said they were out there about 15 minutes. Then Larry's wife came to the front door, and there was that.

So finally the guys just said thanks a lot. They rolled up the map and rolled up the window, and they backed out of the driveway, headed back down the road. And they said if the Bronco went the right way, they would have run into Camp 10 and everything would have went fine. So timeline is if the Bronco went the wrong way, though, this is the thing. If it went the wrong way, it would have run into Mapes Road. By the way, this gets really insane and we're not going to talk about directions for a while. This is just some factual setup and then we're going to get into some shit like you've never heard before so i'm telling you right

fucking now buckle up everybody so this road runs parallel to camp 10 road mapes does mapes does but they're about three miles apart but they're running parallel okay there were a few paved roads in the area a bunch of dirt roads bunch of trails and shit like that. If the Bronco had gone toward Mapes by mistake and they turned onto it, they could have driven by Linker's Lost Creek Lodge. Okay? Listen to how far in the middle of fucking nowhere this bar is. Think about who's hanging out here. This is a rugged crowd.

So, yeah, and they said, too, the guy with his sons with the firewood said they didn't like stare at their taillights to see which way they turn they went back to their firewood so they have no fucking idea what happened we gave him the directions fuck out of here then this guy barker a month later he sees them on tv is missing and he goes that's the fucking guys from the goddamn bronc remember those and the kids are like shit yeah we talked to those guys remember those guys in the driveway yeah beer, beer-smelling gentlemen here. He said, quote, man, those are the guys that were in my driveway. Holy shit.

And then he called the cops and said, I know those guys here. So this helps a lot because it puts them in one definitive place. They didn't drive south or in Missouri. They know they were in this area. At a roundabout time. Yes. So they also start asking other people in this area because they never knew to look in this area because it's a way far away from where they were supposed to be going right the owners of walkers bar and bowling alley in mayo yeah buddy

bar and bowling alley that's the one people live here they die here they get their mail here i mean you could say one or the other of those you You don't need to say both of them. Well, bowling alley implies there's a bar in it probably, right? That's my point. Yeah. If you say bar, I guess you can qualify that with bowling. But you could just say bowling because we know there's a full bar. We get it. So Paul and Beverly Pasternak, they lived upstairs and I guess run the bowling alley.

Yeah. So they saw the hunters twice. They said Brian and David. Oh, they saw them twice, once at night and then the next afternoon as well. So they spent through. So they spent the night in this area.

Beverly said she talked to them in conversation both times. That's why she remembers they were here. Their daughter, Brenda, who also worked there, said that she talked to them too she remembered them um specifically because they started playing pool with a guy known as coke yeah okay coke is the thickness of his glasses that's why they call him coke

got it so every every guy nickname is never complimentary it's always what's your worst feature all right we're gonna call you that yeah fucking horrible come here lazy eye let me talk to you for a minute not creative but definitely mean um she said that coke was a tough guy and very unpredictable she said quote coke was the kind of guy you kept your eye on so yeah so she did she said she kept her eye on him and the hunters to make sure that no bullshit started over there because you know they're keeping tabs on shit in the bar uh david welch is a guy who lived in mayo he went to walkers all the time bowling alley bar and uh they said that he was like the norm peterson of the place which um means he he

was there every day everybody knows who he is. He's literally getting his mail there. He's eating lunch there and then hanging out and drinking all night there type of thing. He's an unemployed construction worker who's there seven nights a week. How do you afford that? That's what I mean. To drink in a bar is way more expensive to drink at home. Way more? Way more expensive.

I mean, you could get, it's ridiculous. For one night of drinking in a bar, you could drink for two weeks at home way more way more expensive i mean you could get it's ridiculous for one night of drinking in a bar you could drink for two weeks at home and unless it's like unless it's one of those places where beer is nothing you know i mean like it's a bowling alley so right i'm sure they have some kind of peps that's fucking some kind of shit that's a quarter for drafts or something he sits and drinks it but still still, even that, you would imagine. Yeah, that's a lot. Unemployed. So he said he was eating in the restaurant section at 8.30, maybe 9. Ew. Jesus. He said he's pretty sure it was Saturday night, the 23rd, but it possibly could have been Friday.

But he thinks it was Saturday. He said two young guys walked in. When he was done eating, he walked over and sat down next to them at the bar and introduced himself. Get the fuck away from me. How's that? Hey, guys. I just had a grilled cheese. What's your name?

Hi. Fuck you. Go away from me. If you do this in a city, you'll get you stabbed in five minutes. They'll stab you with a fork from their fucking appetizer. They don't even care. This is like, get away from me. Why are you talking to me?

So sat down, introduced themselves, and they said their names were David Tile and Brian Ogmunyan or whatever his name is. Ogmunyan. So he said they were up hunting. They drove up in Dave's Bronco. They were staying over at Ma Teeter's place. Ma Teeter. Sounds like what a hillbilly would call their tit.

My left teeter's itchy. Hold call their tit. My left tater's itchy. Hold on a minute. My left tater. Jesus, this is in Luzerne, which is eight miles to the east. They're renting a room out. There's a place called Ma Tater's that you can rent a room from. Jesus Christ. He said David did a lot of the talking.

He was real easy to keep a conversation going there. Something tells me this guy can keep a conversation going with anybody if he's just lonely. Or by himself. He's just lonely, man. Yeah. They said, well, why if you're staying at Ma Teeter's, which is a lodging restaurant, why are you drinking in Mayo? What's going on about that? And aren't you worried about driving home?

He said he told them, quote, the law in Mayo is pretty stiff on drinking and driving. he said he told him quote the law in mayo is pretty stiff on drinking and driving um and he said you know they know where the fuck people are and the cops just sit and wait down the road for down from the bars for people to pull out of the bar and then pull them over so i mean if you swerve and take you to jail probably watch out for that and they told him david told them looking for women that's what we're doing there's no no women there. Oh, weird. What fucking women are going to be at the Linker's Lodge, whatever the shit, or the Walker's Bowling Alley in the middle of the woods? What women are there? You both got women back in Detroit.

What are we doing? That's another point. So it's a bad idea for every aspect, but what the fuck? So anyway, yeah, they're looking for women is what they said. We're looking for broads. That's what's going on. We're trolling for pussy. They said there's not a lot of women here, but there's more than in Luzerne.

And they thought maybe they'd find some action near there at Linkers as well. Linkers had a band going on, and they said, you know, what the hell? They also said they ought to go. The guy told them they should go through Northwood if they wanted some action. You know, all the hot girls are in Northwood. Northwood's known for loose women and good times, obviously. That's about a mile and a half up the road, Northwood Gardens. And he said, Walkers isn't really a place for it.

It's a bowling alley. This isn't the place for chicks. Know what I mean? There's an eight-year-old's birthday right there. No shit. They said they had a couple of buddies who went to school with who had moved up to this area. One's in South Branch. One's in Luzerne.

And they asked this Welch guy if he knew either of them, and he didn't. So either way, they said that they were supposed to be in White Cloud to meet up with their family. And the guy said, well, why aren't you? And Dave said said who wants to go on a on a hunting trip well where all you do is sit around and fart oh that sounds great yeah i mean it's it's i think why guys go on hunting trips to sit around and fart i think you just described the reason for it now at some point dave said quote wouldn't it be nice to just up and disappear at one point and he told this guy that he met at the bar this fucking annoying local he said i just like to head

off to the bahamas for the winter you know what i mean wouldn't that be great and then welch told him the guy sitting there he said you'd have a better chance of disappearing if you go to Alaska, as we've talked about. Alaska is for the, you know, wanted for criminals. So they said that, you know, whatever. So they said, oh, maybe that's how this happened. They talked to him. Maybe they went to the Bahamas. Maybe they went on an Alaskan pussy hunt. We have no idea.

With $120 in their pocket. We're hunting, all right, for pussy in the woods. $120 in their pocket. We're hunting, all right, for pussy in the woods. So, yeah, they told this guy that they were going hunting by Hoy Road and County Road 489. They talked about Dave's Bronco. They told Welch they bought a.45 revolver from a friend of theirs in Detroit before they left. And they asked him if he wanted to go out and shoot it.

This guy said, nah, I'm too drunk. I've been drinking since God knows when. So, you know, since at least last. I've been drinking since at least the spring. So, nah, I'm good. So they said that they were basically they said that they were thinking of people said that it seemed like they were. This guy, Welch, said he was worried about someone trying to rob them. But then they say he said, well, they're armed and they're from Detroit. They know what they're doing.

Like they're used to people trying to rob them, probably. Yeah. So they said they sat there and bullshitting and all that sort of thing. Welch was doing shots of straight schnapps. That's what he's drinking. Jesus. Disgusting. They were taking turns buying each other rounds

apparently and um yeah that is fucking gross so brian got up and said that he was going to go to the northwood after all that's what they were going to do so ken fox working at the northwood about 10 30 to 11 o'clock at night they said a young deer hunter came in these guys they never seen him before they see everybody around there. This guy, who we assume is Brian, sat down at the bar, and this Ken Fox got him a drink. He said he sat down a few seats from the cash register. A few minutes later, two very good-looking women, about 25 or so, came in. Hell, yeah.

This guy said they were way better looking and way better dressed than the typical women at the Northwood and deer season. They had knot boots on. you know what i'm saying they had shoes with no shoe strings yeah they had not camouflage is what they were wearing it's pretty hot when chicks don't wear camouflage just once just one so he said he'd never seen them before and um you know they were ever everybody in the bar was looking at him because he's like damn he's fucking one of these women came from they said yeah that's ladies they sat down at the bar about 10 feet down from brian they ordered drinks and they said that um um they they said that uh brian told the bartender to put the drinks on his tab just put them on my tab. What a gentleman.

Then he wrote a note on a piece of paper and handed it to the bartender and asked him if he'd mind passing it on to them. They read the note, put it down, got up and walked out without touching their drinks. So I don't know what kind of note they just wrote, but they just fucked up having two good looking women in the bar for everyone in there. And they're like, what did you do that for? Jesus Christ what did the note say get the fuck out of here no i i'm it must have been filthy so wow they said they thought it was friday is what he thought um they said that brian finished his drink didn't rush it didn't nurse it just finished his drink and left the guy was like holy shit what

the fuck was that all about here holy fuck that's crazy so if i was the two of you i'd run i'd run because i'll be chasing you i'll give you a 10 second head start maybe is what it said i'm not sure i already started counting i started counting soon as i folded this note. You look over at him and he goes, seven. He mouths it holding up seven fingers. They just took off. So David stayed at the other bar at Walker's with the Welch guy, the drunken out-of-work construction worker. At one point, David got up to go to the bathroom and stumbled.

At that point, the bartenderender beverly stopped serving him all right you're cut off was that a stumble yeah well when he when he uh came out of the bathroom she said i think you've had enough and you know that's that's good here she said she expected trouble from him but she was he was very polite and took it calmly and he said okay that's fine but do you mind if i wait for my buddy i don't have to I just mind if I wait for my friend to come back in the car. Yeah, you're right. I'm hammered. And they said, sure, that's fine.

That's good. That's a guy who you should be embarrassed. If you try to trip and people go, you've had too much, you shouldn't go, I'm fine. You should go, oh, God, I'm that person who stumbles and then has to be told they've had too much to drink. I'm going to go home now. Yes, there should be shame in that. Not fucking fight

for your right calm the fuck down it's okay we all get too drunk sometimes it happens it happens it's okay it's all right just try harder so um david started drinking some coffee over there then she gave him some coffee a little while later brian returned and he and david walked out the back door and they said it must have been about 1030, no later than 11 o'clock when they left. She figured that had to be the time because that's when they closed the kitchen and she came out at that time and saw him stumble. And so it must have been somewhere between 1030 and 11. The cook said that Welsh here. He finishes off another schnapps and then leaves 15 minutes later.

When he left, he said there was a black bronco in the parking lot he figured that was dave's car he said he went over and checked to see if it was running maybe they got in and fell asleep he said i don't want him to quote i don't want him to sat there and gas themselves to death yeah yeah that's a thing it's awfully nice but it wasn't running and they weren't inside so this guy thinks these motherfuckers must have gotten lucky. He says the other friend must have fucking got some women back at the Northwood place, brought them back here, picked Brian up in their car. And they're screaming off into the night with like the convertible top down and their tits hanging out. Go.

That's what he's thinking. So the next day, it's about noon, and there's Brian and Dave. They're back at the bowling alley again. Jesus. They ordered a Coke and a Budweiser. They said something to get a little blood sugar back in their system, and then a little hair of the dog. A Bud with a Coke chaser.

Not bad. So they said, how's your head today? And David said, I think I had enough last night. What do you think here? And basically he was laughing about it with the bartender. Like, yeah, she didn't mind because he wasn't a dick about it. So she was like, no shame in that. That's fine.

So, yeah, that's how that goes. They said they were hanging out, doing their thing. The next time Welch comes in, he says he saw the hunters some weeks later. Some weeks? Weeks later. He said, it's hard to judge the passage of time when you're sitting at the bar in Walker's every night. In other words, I've been drunk for months straight. For way too long.

Way too long. He said one night, though, he went in there and there were their pictures, Dave and Brian's pictures up on the wall. They were missing. And the flyer asked if anyone had seen them. Contact authorities. You know, what the fuck? The sheriff had come in and, you know, that's it. She told him she told him this is what I know.

He went. He said, it's so weird, man. I guess they were missing. And the woman was shocked. The bartender. She man. I guess they were missing. And the woman was shocked. The bartender. She's like, those guys were missing. So that's weird. David had left a heavy flannel shirt on the barstool.

She went and got it. She had put it in her office. She went and got it and gave it to the sheriff and said, you know, if you ever find him, here's a shirt, by the way. So that's what we have. So that's that's proof that they were there, though. She had an item of his clothing. Another guy, Michael Parent, was deer hunting in an area known as Malty Hills. Malty.

It's near Rose City, a few miles south of Mayo, when two men approached him in the woods. They had gotten turned around in the back roads and wanted directions back to Mayo. They said they both had on Hunter's Orange. One a beard one was tall one was short they mentioned they were driving a bronco and the snow wasn't a concern if they had to take unplowed roads so we got four-wheel drive and you know we'll take care of it so david and brian um they so they said yeah sure you know what i mean let's do that um some people said they were assholes though because there's a woman named cindy social and she said she was working at linker's lost creek lodge there uh where basically there's one big room it's a bar and a restaurant in this place

and it was it was a big giant place and it was actually like not a not a shithole. And so Steve Linker was the guy who ran it. And he I guess people would be they'd bring in like a house band and people would come from all over to see the house band. It was like the double deuce or something here. So Cindy, she said she wasn't sure of their ever dates. She thought she was. But she said they came in on Sunday, the 24th. No doubt about it. She said she doesn't know what time it was, but she's positive it was that Sunday. And she said it got dark early up there, so it seemed like night most of the time. So they don't know. She doesn't know.

She also remembered that not many people were there, considering it was deer season. She thought it was pretty slow. She noticed headlights as the car turned off Mapes road into the parking lot like they missed that thing she said the guys came in she never saw him before took them for deer hunters they ordered two budweiser's she said one of them found out she said one of them's name was brian he went to the bathroom when he came back the other david was about to pay now brian wanted to pay so he said to her quote don't take his money or i'm gonna fucking smack you don't say that you don't say that you say no no don't don't don't take that you do that don't take his money i got that's what you do you don't go you don't threaten the waitress you take that

money i'm gonna kick you in the twat is not something you say to the waitress i'm gonna give you a hysterectomy against your will that's's right. I'll pull it right out with my bare hands. Comes out in one big chunk if you pull right. So she thought he might have been joking, but she took it as an insult. She took his money and his $2 tip, and then she went to her boss and said she didn't want to wait on them anymore. She said, fuck those people. $2 tip. Yeah.

This guy said that he wanted to keep all the customers he could, the owner, so he went over and sat down with them and had a talk with them. Said, hey, be nice to the waitress. They promised to behave. They said they didn't mean anything by it. He was just breaking his friend's balls. He's sorry that he involved her. They're not those kind of guys. The owner came back to the waitress and said, they're all right.

Come on. That's all right. But anyway, someone else is going to wait on them anyway. All right. She's bartending. Someone else does it. Um, now, um, another woman in the bar, Barb clinic, she calls herself a, uh, she calls herself a party hearty girl. Oh boy. Yeah. She was out at one or another of these bars here all the time. And she said, you know know she lives right up the road on mapes road she said that her best friend ronnie emery had stopped by her house just after nightfall of the northern michigan uh just after nightfall here he shot his first legal buck of his life and

he wanted to go out and celebrate took down a buck here he said he'd shot all kinds of deer but this was the first one he ever shot. Well, he actually had a license. So he said that was pretty cool. It's a fair fight. We's legal. That's right. So she and Ronnie went out playing pool and drinking.

Okay. Maybe about an hour and a half after they got there, two deer hunters came in who she didn't know and whatever. And she figured them for deer hunters, which that's fine. She said she didn't know and um whatever and uh she figured them for deer hunters which that's fine she said she didn't like hunters in general so she just you know the people that come up there they're kind of just touristy so after they arrived she said the short one grabbed her ass oh you son of a bitch the jimmy grabbed her ass yeah so she said keep your fucking hands to yourself she said she didn't take she quote didn't take any shit from from taurus deer hunters she said i love this brought her ready so she said about five minutes later she's leaning over the table

getting ready for a pool shot with her ass sticking out this is great outdoors style here she said that um she said also that she has a pretty good. She had a pretty good ass in those days, by the way, she says. And she said the tall deer hunter slid past and rubbed his groin area into her butt. She said there's no way it was an accident, although it might have looked that way if you like saw it from the other side of the room. But she said he definitely pressed his cock into my ass, basically. So she told him to fuck off and then went back to her shot again so they uh put two quarters on the pool table and called for next game so anyway uh she's pissed off this barb she kept looking at

them like she wanted to kill them yeah and um she said every more she drank the madder she got she said she said they tried to talk with all sorts of fucking women in the bar but you know she said they just rubbed her the wrong way she said quote those guys needed to get their asses kicked okay so yeah another guy here dick smith he is with the sheriff with the osoda County Sheriff's Department. He said that usually during deer season he'd be out with a conservation officer and they would write out citations for hunting violations. He said about 2 a.m., end of shift time, he was driving, and they were nearing the Camp 10 store driving east on M-72 when a black Bronco pulled out in front of him. They said Smith couldn't tell for sure in the dark, but it looked like it had driven right out of the ditch just east of the store.

So they said probably a drunk with four-wheel drive. He said, God damn it, it's the end of my shift. And he said, it's cold out. It's two in the morning. And he said, quote, I didn's two in the morning yeah and he said quote i didn't want to be bothered with arresting a drunk driver there's no one else on the road if they run into a tree it's their fucking problem basically i'm not getting out of my car for this shit not doing it so he said he just let him go now i just gave you all of this

from the their entire weekend these are all the facts all the sightings all the what this has added up to a whole timeline where you can see they went to this. They went here, asked for directions. They missed the fucking road. They went here. They went to one bar. Where's the action? They went to that bar.

They both came back. Well, the bar I went to sucks. And this one sucks. Let's try that other one. Then they went there, hit on women, got yelled at, did a great outdoors pool cue move. And that's that. So this is how the police will report this in the police report this is the entire report on all of that okay quote left st

claire shores residence for mayo once in mayo they stopped at walker's bar restaurant where they were drinking uh agna anjan whatever left tile at at Walker's and went to Northwood's bar. At Northwood bar, where he requested Mr. Fox give the note to the two girls. After the girls left, he finished drinking and returned to Walker's bar where David was at. David had been cut off drinking at Walker's bar due to being intoxicated. The pair left Walker's bar with Tiel leaving behind his shirt. After leaving Walker's bar, they proceeded out of town and stopped at the Barker residence where they obtained directions for Roscommon. Nothing further on Friday. Saturday.

Nothing until they showed up at Walker's Bar in mid-afternoon and ordered food. It's unknown their whereabouts until they showed up at Linker's Lost Lodge Bar in the evening. Nothing further on Saturday. None of that shit. Sunday. lodge bar in the evening nothing further on saturday none of that shit sunday unknown whereabouts until they returned to linker's bar in the evening where they gave barmaid waitress a rough time and spoke with steve linker after leaving the bar whereabouts are unknown so they broke it down into nobody knows shit okay now three years go by what three fucking years go by and that gets worse from there

okay december 8th 1988 this is they're having a meeting about this they decide they're going to try to double down and come back and try to figure this case out who's we the the 18 police officers from a wide variety of jurisdictions gathered in the fl Township Fire Hall for a meeting on the case. Wow. Which the people in there said, oh, wow, all these different jurisdictions were actually having a meeting. Maybe we're taking this shit seriously here. 18 of them. 18. I said he has an informant who claimed that he overheard in a bar in Wixom a conversation that a guy named J.R. Duvall had that he killed two hunters and buried them in the woods.

The bar was called O'Shea's Tavern, and it was at a family birthday party there. Because you always bring up your past murders at a family birthday party. It's a very classy birthday party. Oh, look at little Susie. Ain't she so cute blowing out her candles? I hope. she starts school next year she's just adorable i ever tell you about when i killed them two guys and buried them in the woods very did she get is that a strawberry shortcake that reminds me of the time i murdered two men oh i slaughtered them good so uh they said that duval said that he'd gotten into a fight in a bar and taken the hunters outside and shot them.

And this guy said that the informant said that they guessed the Bronco had ended up in the possession of a South Lyon resident, which is north of Ann Arbor. So this guy said he'd been conducting surveillance of the house in October and saw the Bronco, which had been converted into a short bed pickup. OK, I had the wrong plate on it, but he said it could have been a Bronco converted into a short bed pickup. Okay. It had the wrong plate on it, but he said it could have been a Bronco converted into a short bed pickup, and of course they'd put the different plate on it. They're not going to have the same plate on it. So they said the guy had gotten the Bronco from a well-known re-tag guy up in northern Michigan. So a guy who can clean a car so you can register. In northern Michigan, identification numbers and then switching plates.

The re-tag guy was a good friend of J.R. Duvall, the guy who was mentioned before. So that's two separate people with the, goes back to that

J.R. Duvall guy. So who the fuck is J.R. Duvall? Love to know. Okay. Well, he is one of the Duvall brothers.

Duvall brothers are Raymond Wilbur Duvall Jr., otherwise known as jr um he is 35 years old in 1985 he's born in 1950 and his brother donald dean coco duval he goes by coco because dd sounds stupid it sounds dumber so coco um now um he's 33 he's two years younger than his brother okay now this guy said he did background checks on jr and coco and they were considered extremely violent basically um they were fucking a mess uh the younger brother was living with jr at the time they are known as this is from a newspaper the duval brothers drank hard and played hard

in the forests of northeast lower Michigan, living off the land, sleeping in small cabins and decrepit trailers and using their fists to settle scores. I didn't hear anything about a job there, James. 1985. Oh, they don't have a job. We'll get into what they do for a job.

They liked this. This is what they were into um all the forests and swamps they said were rich with game for fishing and hunting providing a physical and psychological barrier to the outside world literally living off the land yeah they're known as the most feared craziest toughest guys in the north woods is what they're known as here um they said they are the leaders of what is called a clan of seven brothers i don't like that word no um it's it's they're basically what they call everybody says they're like an urban legend in the area like the duvalls are like the whites of west virginia or like everyone knows the duvalls and that they're fucking crazy their father raymond devol senior died in prison that's nice that's good um their mother

shirley was also known as j or i'm sorry their mother was shirley j junior jr was also known as j or the bird they called him the bird sometimes he had jr they crudely tattooed on his left arm, they said. Right. And Coco had a tattoo on his right hand, another shitty one, that read Coke, C-O-K-E. Yep. Coke, like Coke. Coke bottles. Yeah, like someone named Coke.

That's interesting. Someone whose nickname would be confused with Coke because everyone calls him Coco, but Coke is what some people call him. So Tommy is one of the brothers. He's people call him so tommy is one of the brothers he's known as the worm that's one of the brothers coke the worm the bird um he's the quietest of the bunch um frank he's the sexiest of the watt family frank they called finn uh rex wayne here it is he's known as sexy that's his nickname sexy i'm sue bob i'm the sexiest of the watt family that's him rex wayne with the titties sexy rexy swing them titties rexy um my god um so oh jesus christ many of a couple of these people rex i guess rex when he was 32 had to serve time for criminal sexual conduct with a friend's 15 year old daughter oh god jesus that's rape is

what it's called yeah yeah well that was the charge that he pled guilty to his criminal sexual conduct uh the two youngest brothers were named randy they called him Non, N-O-N, like you're not a thing. Not a person. And then the last one was Kenneth Ray, who they called what? What's his nickname, Jimmy? Kenny. Ed. Of course it is.

Of course. Why not? Why not call him fucking Jim? Who cares? What's the difference? Bill, who gives a fuck? Who cares? Call him whatever the fuck you want.

There's one sister, Charlene. I bet you can guess her nickname. Charlene? Sissy. She's the one sister. So they are known as they spent most of their time in a town called Monroe, where basically they've been feared by every kid in the area since elementary school. Of course. Their classmates' parents called them the Monroe Mafia, the family. Yeah. feared by every kid in the area since elementary school of course um their classmates parents

called them the monroe mafia the family yeah okay but not as classy at all um jr got married as a teenager here to a girl named kate and then went off to vietnam um he couldn't wait to do that but before he went off to vietnam this is amazing when he was 13 jr okay raymond senior started stabbing his wife in the house yeah this is jr's stepmother at the time so stabbing his wife up good okay jr took aim and fired with a 22 rifle at his father obviously this is a normal scenario. Yes, you do. Both the father and the mother survived, but they were both hit with.22 rounds, okay?

Hit them both? Hit them both, yeah. Bad shot. The cops decided that Junior acted in self-defense, but it was talked about in the family for years. Hey, remember when Junior shot Senior that time when Senior was stabbing his wife? Yeah, that'll come up every once in a while. Remember when he missed Senior and hit her too?

At least during holidays, right? She walks with a limp because of that still. But at least she's not stabbed to death. So now basically Ray Senior would beat everybody. Everybody in the fucking family. It's just he's always beating people and shit like that um that's what it is um at one point when he finally died coco younger brother said quote i'm glad the son of a bitch is dead and that was that for his dad didn't really give a shit about that

jr was a was a an mp in vietnam actually which is very odd for a lawless motherfucker mp in vietnam actually which is very odd for a lawless motherfucker here um yeah later on he's married to that kate girl they have two sons holy shit i wonder what they're like um and then kate divorced him her sister georgia who married coco yes the sisters married the brothers gross said that jr was a different person when he came home from vietnam i'll bet and he really is a sick motherfucker so georgia married coco in 1970 then divorced him in 1976 that's how their marriage worked um she said she was tired of his drinking and is beating her i imagine you would get tired of that that would get real annoying he broke her jaw the year they got married god damn it man broke her nose another time now he says though yes he did break her jaw but it wasn't his fault

he was trying to hit her uncle and she got in the way and they just connected with her i was just trying to punch her uncle in the face i don't know stop putting your jaw in front of my fist hit her square square in the jaw to break it she got her fucking head off un-fucking-real um they were a pack though they said everybody in the area said if you deal with or fight with one of them you deal with their fight with all of them that's just the way it is um they moved they'd work like in a in an auto plant for a while and then they would um like i guess apparently they they're very they're very poor basically and a couple of the brothers had gotten a job at an auto plant and the rest of

them were kind of just hanging out in the in the in the woods and the swamps and everything else um yeah it was very very weird here jr and coco wore the they were a mess basically. They ran a chop shop in the woods. So they also have pigs. They're pig farming hillbillies that also do like city shit. They do like chop shops in their barn, shit like that. They would steal cars, chop them into parts, and sell them off quickly. They were really good at tracking deer. They could run all sorts of shit.

They said they could run trap lines. They knew where the best hardwood was to chainsaw into loads of firewood so they could sell it. They could, uh, run salvage yards. They had a legitimate junkyard business, actually. Really? Like a legitimate on the books junkyard business here. Um, they were mechanics, roofers, welders, electricians. These are just two of them.

They know how to do everything. They're just handymen. Yeah. They would also, they steal power. They climbed a consumer power pole and rigged up a line to run free electricity down to their houses. That is balls, man. Yeah, that's what I mean. These guys are fucking nuts.

When asked years later what they did for a living, Coco answered, quote, firewood and welfare. Yeah. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. So J.R. was he'd harvest things year round. knew the woods, and he knew how to do everything, basically. His family would say that he killed about 100 deer a year.

That seems like a lot. A lot, and not legal either. Right. Yeah, he would do that, and he also would like, he cut down a power pole with a chainsaw, like a telephone pole with a chainsaw, like a telephone pole, a chainsaw. He didn't want it there. Very, very fucking interesting. He even would use after a while, he would use his chainsaw to quarter his deer after he killed.

Oh, God, that's so messy. That's messy. So he could feed them to the hogs. Wow. They say it's holy shit, man. This is wild. At one of their 4th of July pig roasts, it didn't look like the pig they were roasting

was going to be enough for the whole crew that showed up. So they said if typical day, not only would there be like family and stuff like that, but if it's a party like that, local motorcycle gang members would show up as well the highwayman or the penetrators that's a name for a fucking gang so you know they said

JR Rex Randy and their mom's boyfriend Jimmy McBee they would drove off down to the neighbor's farm someone shot a cow just stole a neighbor's farm and JR cut it in half with a chainsaw right where it fell. Unbelievable.

They cut it in half so they could drag it over to the road and wrestle it into the back of the Jeep. It's unwieldy, a giant fucking deer. Cow, James. A giant fucking cow. Yes, I meant a cow. They're not big guys, but they're terrifying. They're scraggly hairs, scraggly beards. They bathe like once a month.

They're just filthy. They're covered in viscera and fucking bone chunks and blood in their hair all the time. They're fucking disgusting. Coco is 5'5", about 170 pounds. And JR is about 5'9", 5'10 ten and a little bit thinner basically so they're crazy here's locals opinions on them and we'll get some lore from them one guy here here's a orf flock heart yeah he said he doesn't believe jr would ever kill a person though he said this guy's 67 years old he looks like an old prospector the The picture of him in the paper, he's lighting a pipe with a match.

I swear to God. With a can of Milwaukee's Best next to him. Fantastic. He said he lived with JR for a couple of winters, and then several years later with another one of the Duval brothers, Sexy Rexy, of course. He said he didn't know Coco very well, but Junior was a nice guy, and I don't believe he could do anything.

He was a guy that if he cut a load of wood for you, he was fair about it. Okay. Okay. He said JR wasn't a violent man, but he liked to drink and could sure handle his fighting. And he also said that JR used to boast that he spent $200 a month on beer just himself.

Okay. In the 80s, he drank $200 worth of beer in a month. That's a lot. That's a whole lot of beer. Yeah. It was like, fuck, $8 a 12-pack then probably, $7.99? Shit, probably less than that for what they're drinking. Yeah, you're probably right, $4.

In the 80s, yeah. That's a shitload of beer. Fuck, yeah. This guy went on to say, they had their fun once they tied up kenny that's the youngest of the duval brothers with ropes and hoisted him up in the tree and just left him there but it was for fun just for fun not to ed it wasn't fun so the conservation officer that knows this area said quote duval that's the magic word he said no one

here is going to talk to you about them though because they're all terrified of them this guy says that um the duval brothers were constant frequent targets of investigations quote they were criminals poachers always looked to do something wrong they were very assaultive very aggressive and uh they even had another problem here. They had been a part of a ring where they were convicted of illegally selling salmon eggs in 1982. Those are super regulated? Yeah, apparently. They were harvesting them.

They sold fish that was out of season. They'd go fishing for shit that they weren't allowed to keep. It was just out of season. You're not allowed to do it because they're spawning they set out turtle traps in the cedar bogs and swamps such i guess you weren't allowed to do they cut wood and sold it by the face cord paying uh friends of theirs ten dollars a day to help them so and they would do it from from state land state-owned land that they weren't allowed to do that so enter sergeant well here's sergeant bronco he's going to enter later on. So enter Sergeant, well, here's Sergeant Bronco.

He's going to enter later on. But he said about them, lots of people hated them, but lots of people were afraid to turn on them. He said they like to fight. You mess with one of them, you mess with all of them. I got a lot of payphone calls from people who wanted to stay anonymous about them. So they said another sheriff of Alcona County, he said that they had a reputation for violence and intimidation. He said if you stop them, you need to get back up. Don't do this alone.

Holy shit. Did they or did they not kill a guy's wife? Let's find out about that. Nelson Bowlesman, who's 50, he ended up being convicted in the 1994 strangulation of his wife, Eileen. up being convicted in the 1994 strangulation of his wife Eileen. He maintained his innocence saying the whole time saying that his wife may have been killed

by friends or relatives of J.R. Duvall with whom Eileen had a 10 year affair with. He's like it wasn't me. She was cheating on him for 10 years with a guy? She was the mother of one of his children as a matter of fact. Of two of his children as a matter of fact damn it of two of his children sorry my god um the trial later on we'll talk about get into all this crazy shit

because he's has a lot of trials as jr deval um another guy here robert provost a vietnam veteran that he's described as quote a vietnam veteran with no permanent address that says a lot um he told later on he told the cops he suffered from post-traumatic stress syndrome and um they found his tire tracks back on this time uh swerving around eileen's body on the muddy road and he was cleared of wrongdoing so he drove around the body didn't say anything about it um so yeah we saw it if he went around it that's the problem there yeah uh it was alleged that jr and coco stole cars chopped them into parts um and all that kind of shit like we said they ran legitimate junkyards they ran illegitimate junkyards they did all that kind of shit they did do some legitimate work they'd paint some barns

or put some fence posts up for a farmer or some shit like that they re-roofed some restaurants in the area uh jr had bartended at timber steakhouse in south branch where he was also the bouncer because he's a fucking lunatic uh coco had a tow truck for years down by monroe um so there was that and yeah, he fought the city cause he was running a business out of his home and they didn't want him to anyway. Uh, they were working here, uh, later on at the union 76 station next to timbered next to timbers, that thing. And, uh, yeah, they're always fighting somebody from, they're always fighting. People are doing crazy shit.

One of Coco's girlfriends live in-in girlfriend Connie Sundberg, worked there also. She said one time during one of her breakups with Coco, Connie agreed to date to a date with the son of a local deputy sheriff. When the guy came to pick her up, a couple of Duval's and one of

a couple of Duval's friends jumped the guy, basically. The friend had a metal pipe and fucked the guy's head all up. Oh, my God. Yeah, he fucking beat his head in with a metal pipe. The deputy sheriff then came by and got all pissed off and said, who did this to my kid? But nobody would say. And charges were never filed.

So one time here, J.R.'s live-in girlfriend named Donna Laureen Meekin, she was in the midst of a divorce and pregnant by J.R. She's Connie's sister, by the way, so they always fuck sisters. Yeah. The other one. They're fucking sisters. They do. It makes it easier. His girlfriend at the time, they said, basically, this woman, another woman, his girlfriend okay here we go this is hard he had a

girlfriend okay live-in girlfriend named donna laureen meekin okay meet you no meekin m-e-a-k-i-n all right yeah she is um she they were getting a divorce but she's pregnant by him okay that's connie's sister now he had another girlfriend at the time named Eileen sites who had just left him because he beat her up all the time. Right? So Eileen and Jr. Used to live in an earthen home. Earthen Jimmy.

I'll explain that near Curtisville. It was a sod hut. It's a hole in the ground. It's a hut. They built a fucking mud hut. Remember the guy in the express that wanted to build a dirt house? Dirt house. That's what hole in the ground. It's a hut. They built a fucking mud hut. Remember the guy in the Express that wanted to build a dirt house? Dirt house. That's what they did.

Dirt house. They built a dirt house near Curtisville. Assad Hut. It was basically like if you went in the 1800s and had to hunker down for a little while. What the shit? It had dirt floors and was surrounded by litter, junk, and shit all over the place that they just left. Junk and car parts and shit. It's fucking crazy.

Now, Donna, Lauren Meekin, she was 24 at the time in the late 80s when they were talking to her. She had met J.R. when she was 14. Met, meaning she's been fucking J.R. since she was 14 and he was in his 20s but hadn't moved into his trailer till the previous march um they went down start things started to go downhill after she had a baby and he beat the living shit out of her um yeah and then dragged her through the mobile home by her hair golly uh yeah so he was out fishing one day and he she packed up her shit and left there. So, wow, this is fucking crazy. So there they had fenders, boat parts, refrigerator parts, old iron wood burning stoves.

They had all this weird shit up there. There's dogs, animal fucking shit all over the place. There's pig shit everywhere because there's tons of pigs they love their pigs rex's favorite pig lived in the house with him and his wife no yep and then jr was known to pass out next to the pig on the bed one neighbor girl who was eight or nine at the time used to come over to play with sharon's daughter nicole she remembered years later watching the Duvals heading down the steps to the basement, hearing them fire up a chainsaw, hear the motor revving up and down as it was doing its thing. And then they would come up with white five-gallon plastic buckets dripping red filled with raw meat that they'd go toss out to the pigs.

Good God. What were they cutting up? Deer. Deer. They were doing this in their basement. Oh, that's so gross. raw meat that they'd go toss out to the pigs good god what they were cutting up deer deer they were doing this in their basement oh it's so gross a local sheriff and this is my favorite a local law official called them quote three levels lower than deliverance three levels lower lower than deliverance give you an idea of what's going on here. Hill trash. They said, this is from the book here, it was a big family just counting the siblings. Huge when you figured in all the McMullen first cousins and second cousins,

the children, the illegitimate children, the wives, the ex-wives, girlfriends, and ex-girlfriends. It was the kind of close-knit blood family that when a cousin was asked if he was a cousin on the mom's side or the dad's side, he could very well answer both. Gross's what's going on so years have gone by there's a giant mystery it is in fact on unsolved mysteries this this case that's how much stack that's how unsolved of a mystery this truly is um so yeah assign all these. They have like a 15 officer. They have a big task force, but it's all from different people.

It's all a bunch of tiny departments that each give a guy, I guess. Are they giving their best guy, or are they just giving, we could do without Dave for a while, you know what I mean? Keep him occupied for us. Yeah. Are we giving him the best guy, really? Probably not. Probably not.

Yeah. You take 18 half of detectives, you got nine full detectives. That's a good point. Maybe they'll come up with something if they rub their dicks together long enough, something will pop out. So August of 18, 1889, August of 1989. Sorry, this story sounds like it's from 1889. It's certainly Bronco.

Certainly dated. One cop is overlooking Detective Anderson's information on an informant that had an informant had talked about. They needed a replacement, a big replacement part for a 1978 Bronco. And somebody, one of the Duvalls was like, yeah, well, we could just steal you that and get that part for you. That's easy. You know what I mean? So they said that this guy goes over the notes, talks to this person, and it was a different from the last time this person's story.

This time, this guy said that he'd been in O'Shea's Tavern in Wixom about two years earlier and heard J.R. telling family members about himself and his brother Coco getting into a fight with two deer hunters outside of a bar and killing them. He didn't know what bar it was, what the Duval's had used, but since he'd heard other family members telling variations of the tale too since then. So the informant said that if anyone knew anything of value, it would be a guy named Raymond Metcalf. Okay. He's a guy. He's a good friend of the Hoffman's who are related by marriage and who live up in another county. Now, September 7th, three different detectives, four detectives meet with this Metcalf guy. They told him or he told them, yes, I know J.R. and Coco well, but I had nothing to do with them in about 15 years.

And they're heavily involved in drugs and crime, and I don't deal with them. He said that this Hoffman guy said that two or three years earlier, one of the Duval's cousins, Lonnie McMullen, was visiting him and said that J.R. had told him about killing some guy and feeding him to the pigs. He said that he hadn't asked him more about it and had no idea what happened. And he said he knew nothing about any 1984 Bronco. Now, Hoffman's wife, Debbie, was Lonnie's sister. Lonnie McMullen's sister that he just talked, who was one of the Duvall's cousins. Lonnie McMullen is married to his, Jesus Christ, his sister is, Debbie's married to this guy Hoffman. They're all related up here. That's why you could say that.

So she was also one of the Duvall's cousins as well. Okay. Now, Debbie remembered the incident. She thought Lonnie was just bullshitting or joking and hadn't taken him seriously. Coco Duvall was close with her sister who lived in Florida. And she said, well, I don't know nothing he don't know nothing but if anybody would know anything it's my sister because she's real close to him

my sister Susan down in Florida so there we go a couple days later Debbie called this the detective and said she called her sister in Florida saying her kids have been arguing about the details of something they'd heard Lonnie talking about a while back.

Something about J.R. and Coco feeding some guys to some pigs. What did she know about it? Was it true? Susan told her it was true. The story J.R. told her was that he'd gotten drunk at some bar and was beaten up by five guys. J.R. had left and come back

with Coco and someone else. Only two of the guys had beaten him up were still in the bar they dragged them outside beat them up killed them and fed them to pigs okay so no one had there was no pack of five that they were involved they were never in a pack of five David and Dave

and Brian so they're like we don't know what's up with that story doesn't check out that doesn't check out so now there's a $15,000 reward for information and all this type of shit. Now, on September 17th of that year, Schramm gets a call from the East Tawas post of the police. One of their informants had something. The informant had good information that they said it was considered reliable. information that they said it was considered reliable he said he'd been at a party at a gravel pit near the alcona dam with jr coco and members of the highwayman highwayman motorcycle

gang yeah everyone was drinking heavily no shock there at some point junior told the informant that he had killed two people and fed them to some hogs and that their vehicle had been cut up and part of it rolled down the high banks above the dam into the water. On September 21st, Michigan State dive team spent a long time searching two deep water spots behind the dam, crisscrossing the waters, but they finally gave up and they couldn't find anything. September 22nd, they get another tip. OK, he's rattling the whole cage here.

He's anger in the hive this time um this is fucking interesting here they get uh this informants a woman okay sets up an interview she had been at shirley devol's house in november of 85 when a call came in jr was in trouble and needed some families uh needed the family's help a later, Coco and four others that she named grabbed some sticks and knives and raced out. Sticks. The problem was the other people would later tell the identical tale but with a different cast of characters.

So nobody can get exactly. There's a lot of drunks and a lot of fighting and they can't really nail down which drunken fight this was. She said they all returned at daybreak. They said she didn't notice any blood on their clothing and they didn't talk about what happened months later around the 4th of july 1986 a friend's pickup was seen uh with the front and real rear axles of a ford four-wheel drive vehicle

and possibly transmission too so um they said the parts were delivered and sold to another guy named Mike. Holy shit. So anyway, the informant three days earlier, one of the DeVolves wives had called her. The wife had seen one of the flyers asking for information because they were all over the place. The wife said she just talked to Coco and he was warning the family they better get ready because the police are coming after us. All right. Now, here we go. Police talk to J.R.'s ex at this point, Donna Sundberg. Okay.

That was Connie and Donna. Now, she, like we said, he beat her up and everything like that. Donna, right after they broke up, she already had a new boyfriend. She'd moved on. It is her sister's husband's uncle. Jesus, God. That's who she hooked up with here brother wait sister's husband's uncle that's gross that's just a weird everybody's got to be related in some way shape or form so uh they said that junior's mother's boyfriend james mcbee had come by looking for Junior on Labor Day weekend.

He wanted to warn him that his brother Frank had just called to warn the family that the cops down in Monroe were asking questions about missing deer hunters. So she said that she heard the line, quote, there's a snake in the woodpile, meaning that she took it as someone was talking. There's a rat out there. Yeah. Yeah. The cops seem to know too much about it. And they all talk. They're all gossiping.

Who could be talking? Was it this one's ex-girlfriend? Was it this one's girlfriend's cousin's sister who this one impregnated twice? And then her uncle married my niece. How do you figure this out? Somebody's uncle's got a big mouth. Now they start getting all sorts of shit about the Duval's. At one point, there was a party, and I guess it was J.R. said, quote, I'll bet you five.

No, somebody said this to J.R. I'll bet you five bucks you won't kiss that pig's pussy. And he said, oh, goddamn right I will. And he did it. Oh, my God. It gets worse, by the way, there the way there he did also so he kissed a pig pussy i doubt it i bet it was a deep tongue fucking throbbing yeah and at one point they were joking and he said you know pigs don't eat skulls and he was laughing and then he said to donna if you don't shut up, I'll feed you to the pigs. Okay. Donna said it was common knowledge that some family members or friends would bring cars up from Michigan to be cut up and sold.

They'd steal cars in Detroit, drive them up here to be cut up and sold. That's what they do. They go to where the people are. So the next day, they said Donna had come in. Donna told them that story. Then the the next day she came in hysterical and needed to talk to the police okay she said she's worried about her sister connie coco's ex-girlfriend coco had a new girlfriend named terry and donna heard that coco told terry he thought connie was shooting her mouth off and he was going to kill her so worried about connie now

september 25th this cop interviews sharon russo that is sexy Rexy's ex girlfriend. They'd broken up the previous year for a good reason, because Rex had been sentenced to 32 to 40, 36 to 42 months at the Southern Michigan Correctional Facility for criminal sexual misconduct with a 15-year-old. Three years. That'll end your relationship, yeah. So she said she'd been working at Timber Steakhouse in 85, and like all that, the Duval's, everybody was there for deer season and hanging out and shit like that. She said she was always hosting pig roasts and the party where the line about kissing a pig's pussy entered the family lore

was the same one where Jr for five dollars on a dare ate a large hunk of pig shit five bucks for a total of ten dollars he ate pig shit and kissed its pussy what's your price for eating pig shit jimmy what's your what's your price for that it is it is high staggeringly higher than eating pig pussy uh wow and and eating and licking a kissing whatever however he did it it's high it's much higher than $5. Oh, my God. So he ate the pig shit. Then he went and passed out in the house next to where her pet pig was sleeping. Multiple people have pet pigs, by the way.

When J.R. woke up, his face was down, apparently, by the pig's pussy. That's when one of the bikers saw J.R. and asked him if he'd kiss the pig's pussy for five dollars till you'll eat it shit will you go down on it for five dollars and he said fuck yeah buddy he's fucking five bucks wow so on october 19th of 89 jr is arrested on a warrant out of alcona county for failure to pay child support okay which doesn't shock me at all. Yeah. They only they normally that's kind of a passive warrant. They're not out looking for you. But if you're also a murder suspect, then they're going to go get you and use this as a reason to talk to you. Get you on that one.

Hang on to you for questioning. Yeah, exactly. So they give him they talk him into doing a lie detector test, which he's so arrogant. He agrees to. OK, they drive him down he does a test um he said he was probably living in curtisville in 85 in a trailer across from the community center but that's what uh but that when the hunters went missing he was camped out in the woods like he did every year on a true on a two track that ran east west just behind the trailer

um there so he said the only fight he could remember getting into from that time was in Cass City. Two guys beat him up when he started hitting his wife. Rightfully so. What I did was earned an ass kicking. Earned an ass whooping. He said that he called his brothers for help. By the time they got there, it was all settled and done,

and they just took him home, and he was the only one who got beat up he doesn't know shit about missing hunters he knows nothing about ford broncos missing also the guy who administered the test lieutenant charles allen said that jr is definitely lying he failed every single question besides his fucking name and address and he's either directly responsible for the incident or at least heavily involved in it yeah they asked him uh what's your name, address, what does pig pussy taste like? And then he failed everything else. Everything else he failed. Except he said pig pussy tasted great.

So I'm going to call that a fail too because I don't think it does. So now they go into full-on intimidation mode. Now the brothers are panicking. into full-on intimidation mode okay now the brothers are panicking so they are jr duvall is using threats to keep his ex-girlfriend who by the way was later killed what mysteriously quiet about this whole thing um people are starting to really talk and yap and uh you know talk about what they think but nobody wants to say anything to the cops because they're afraid of this family the duvals are they say this to the cops because they're afraid of this family. The Duvalls, they say, this is ridiculous that you think we did that.

This is a frame-up by the police who've got nothing but a pack of lying witnesses against us. We're upstanding people. Police don't have a body. No body, no crime. As we know, they don't have a truck. They don't have any clothing except for the flannel shirt from the bar. They don't have a drop

of blood to connect the Duvalls to anything they have who gots is what they got um so their lawyer the devolves lawyer said they weren't there and they didn't do anything and they're angry because they think uh they're being worked by the cops okay so that's that jr's attorney says the police all they have are basically rumors and 1200 pages of police report with no physical evidence. And the families of the victims pressured police to clear the books of the case. And that's the only reason they're there. They're doing this. Brian's mom here.

She's 77 at the time, said, what can what can I tell you? She said, it'll be hard for me to even think about it, much less anything else. And then she just kind of stops. So they take him to trial. J.R. J.R. 36 witnesses testified. Wow.

Here's a couple highlights just to buzz through them. Connie Sundberg said that Coco drunkenly told her one night, quote, we killed them when talking about the hunters. Rocky Harmon said he'd overheard J.R. and Coco tell family members at O'Shea's that he killed the hunters. Rocky Sundberg said that J.R. said at a party what a good way to get rid of bodies was was to feed them to pigs. Lonnie McMullen said he'd heard from two of J.R.'s friends that J.R. admitted killing the hunters to them. That sounds very hearsay-ish. killing the hunters to them. That sounds very hearsay-ish. Donna Sundberg said that J.R. threatened to

feed her to the pigs when she asked him what he and his friends had been saying one night about the hunters. Eileen Seitz, another one of J.R.'s ex-girlfriends, said she'd seen Randy Duvall driving a Bronco the weekend the hunters disappeared. Once she heard J.R. and Coco talking, and one of them said, I know

we're going to get caught. Gerald Drieswer said Rex once told him, wouldn't it be something to feed people to pigs? Yeah. Larry Asher said Coco once told him that he'd been beaten up by five guys, but Coco and Junior later jumped two of them and beat them to death, chopped one of them up and fed them to the pigs. Another time, Coco said that they went fishing in a particular spot.

They'd be near the Bronco. Hey, if we go go fishing over here we'll be near the bronco yeah we'll be near that bronco now jody duvall she said she was at shirley duvall's up north uh the weekend the hunters were missing sexy rexy called and said junior had been beaten a fight needed help she thought that coco and four others uh she named went to Cass City armed with knives and returned early the next morning, and there's that one. Emily Duvall said she and other family members had been in timber over the Thanksgiving weekend of 1989. Coco saw a poster of the missing hunters and said they deserved it. That was that. And then she'd been told by frank that coco told him that they buried

the hunters now ken devall said they've gotten a call from rex saying that junior had been beaten up by five or six motorcyclists they drove an hour and a half to carrow but when they got there junior was sitting on the curb he didn't look like he'd been beaten up he said he was okay they went to a coffee shop bought cigarettes got gas and drove home they didn't look like he'd been beaten up. He said he was okay. They went to a coffee shop, bought cigarettes, got gas, and drove home. They didn't see anyone or fight anyone. These are defense witnesses. Randy Duvall said Junior had been in a fight with two guys and all that shit. Now, Tommy Duvall told the same story.

Shirley didn't know anything. Glenn Lumpkus said he was at Rex's house when JR called saying he'd been in that fight. So there's a lot. Apparently, he was in a fight in Cass City at one point and called everybody he ever knew. Get on down here. They said some people it was a big ass kicking to

him. Some people say that he fucking that he did the ass kicking and they beat them. Some people say he killed them. It's crazy. Frank Duvall said they've been out drinking one night when coco told everyone that cops were dumb and if they find one body they'll find another one below it oh okay now rex duvall said he wanted a lawyer then a week later reappeared with one

he said the call about the fight was in 86 or 87 he said that jr had been in a fight with uh in carrow with his ex-girlfriend's boyfriend and two others and he needed to be picked up to avoid further trouble they drove up found him on the sidewalk went to a coffee shop so that's that time um basically this isn't the grand jury this isn't even the trial the grand jury tells the oakland county prosecutor that there is not enough to issue an indictment on this at all there's no concrete evidence no real witnesses no actual eyewitnesses you got a bunch of hearsay and a bunch of bullshit and uh they said you know sorry gotta let them go yeah they let them go so jr is released this case by the late 90s is as cold as a pig's pussy oh it is cold you derby colder than the pig's pussy yeah

when finally detective bronco lesneski ends up he sounds like a linebacker bronco lesneski played for the packers in 1961 a detective with the same name as the car. Bronco. I'll find that Bronco. He finds Broncos. That's what he does. That's what he does. March 1999 now, 14 years. He gets a call back from a message he left for Ruth Fawcett.

She said she had a friend named Barb Klimek. Remember that name? A one-time heavy drinker, the party hardy girl hearty hearty we love those girls during one of her binges she confided to faucet this woman that she knew more about the lost hunters than anyone would believe barb told her she was in a bar called something like the sky ranch lost creek um when there was a confrontation between some locals and some hunters barb was sitting by the pay phone and heard the locals Yeah. Yeah. heard noises in the woods by her house, which was close by. It sounded like fighting and arguing. Then, soon after, a couple guys showed up at her door and told her, keep your mouth shut, you didn't see anything, we know how to take care of you.

Quote, pigs need to eat too. Jesus. Barb told Fawcett that they were bad people capable of killing anyone and that she'd never cooperate with the police because she was scared of them. So this lady said this Fawcett woman lives somewhere on this road. So the cops went and showed up at her house. They said, are you Barb Kimmel? And she started shaking uncontrollably, apparently.

She said, you're going to get me killed and tried to shut the door in their face. And he said, at that point, that's when he said, said quote i just about fell over i knew then i absolutely knew i had something this woman's not full of shit so what part told you that officer right shaking so he asked her in and she said you're gonna get me killed and he said look i'm not in uniform i'm not in a marked car no one will know you're talking to a cop but just look like some guy coming over we've heard about about your past. That's not a surprise. You party hardy, dear. You party hardy. She said, I don't want any part of this.

He talked her into that. He told her he had leads, but he needs to know if he's on the right track. He said, I'm going to solve this if it takes the rest of my life. She took a deep breath and said, quote, I knew I was screwed. That's what she said.

She said, yep, she knew he was serious and she knew that he'd keep coming back because the trail is going to keep coming back to me and he's never going to leave me the fuck alone. So he said, fuck. So she took a deep breath and said, I didn't like those deer hunters much. She said those two deserve to get their asses kicked, but they didn't deserve to get killed. That's what she said. Then she started crying and said, why bother me? I don't deserved to get their asses kicked but they didn't deserve to get killed that's what she said then she started crying and said why bother me i don't want to get involved but they said we're gonna have to talk about this and she said if you record me i won't talk because he asked if he could record her so um he said have you ever been interviewed about this before and uh he said i've looked through. I haven't seen your name. And she said that she used to go by Boudreaux.

Now, Klimek is her married name, but she said she hadn't been officially, Jesus, the name she went by now is Boudreaux, even though she's not officially Boudreaux, but she'd had an affair with an Iosco County deputy, and she claimed,

told him what she knew he she said he just blew her off and she said that she wasn't taken seriously she said he told her that she was just a drunk yeah so um they asked if she had any relationship with the killers and she said i knew who they were but i had never had any relationship with any of them here's the tale she said she's sitting at the bar two hunters started some shit with a barmaid as we know about they were drunk acting like assholes she said two of the devals she mentioned them without by name we know the ones we're talking about um um she confronted them and it looked like there was going to be a fight she threatened to call

the cops and everything died down. Okay. Then one of the Duval's made a call to a pig farmer in South Branch, Sherm Heilig, and someone else like we talked about. A little later, friends of the Duval's arrived. The brothers and their friends brought her over a six-pack and told her to, quote, leave and leave. You didn't see anything. You don't know nothing. They gave her some booze and were like, go drink it off. Wow. She left and drove down the road to her house about a mile away, less than a mile away.

A little while later, she heard screaming coming from the woods between her house and the bar, hollering and screaming. Bronco asked her how she could hear the noise with the doors and windows closed, with the trees that way. She said it was so loud she could hear it over her TV. In the house. She said, I knew that the hunters were going to get their asses kicked and figured they deserved it, but I didn't know they were going to get killed. She said a little while the noises stopped and a little while after that there was a knock at the door and it was the Duval's.

And that's when they said, you didn't see anything and you don't know anything. If you ever open your mouth, you'll be killed. The pigs got to eat too unreal she said since then every once in a while for years the duval's one of them would just stop by knock on the door just as a reminder you didn't see nothing remember that and then holy shit man we ain't forgot about you um she said quote i'm sure they'll be giving me a visit soon every time time things heat up, they call me or stop by and threaten me. You have no idea what trouble I'm in. They will kill me and my grandchildren.

Well, looks like witness protection is for her. He said, well, I'll keep our talk in confidence. Well, not till the court documents come out. Then it'll be different. She said, they'll still find out and come looking for me. And he said, what will you tell them? And that's what he asked her. She said, I'll tell them you were here and asking questions, but I'll lie to them and tell them I didn't say anything.

And he said, Bronco leaves and whatever. So the next day, 11 a.m., Bronco gets a call from the Oscoda County Sheriff's Department. And this woman was there. Boudreau was there, all upset and wanting to talk to him. And she said, I'll tell you everything I know. Just let me spend the weekend

with my granddaughters. She's resigned to dying? Yeah, she said. Then they agreed to talk at Monday at 2 p.m. So Monday, she said she'd feel more comfortable talking at her girlfriend's house.

Could he pick her up at 2 and drive over there? Okay. So then the second meeting was eventually held but she had changed her mind gone back and forth this time she bronco took um a detective lieutenant with him on the case they'd worked the case for so long he needed a second eye there they go to her friend her friend's house in luzerne she says uh he says well you're the one who asked for the meeting you know let me know what's up what's going on here um he said i only told my she said i he she said who have you told about me yeah and the cop said i've only told my post commander and this guy sitting right next to me um she he said because this cop knows more

about the case than i know so So I want him to be here. So she says, quote, one of them grabbed my ass when I was playing pool. I told them to knock it off their shit. I mean, and then she said, they said, which one of them grabbed you? And she pointed to Dave's picture. She said there'd been almost instant tension. Once the Duval's arrived, like they met earlier and already had bad blood brewing. She approached the Duval's table and said something about the hunters.

One of the Duval's said they were going to teach him a lesson. She'd been there with her friend, Ronnie Emery. I remember the deer guy caught his first buck and shot his first buck. And anyway, and Ronnie Emery's name is nowhere in the reports, by the way, as well, either, even though he was there. She said they said, said well can we get a hold of ronnie and she said quote he's dead now kind of a suicide kind of a suicide what does that mean well let's find out quote he supposedly got drunk and crawled out crawled out on the highway and gotten his head run over or got tossed out there after jesus christ run over by a 1990 chevy pickup she thought

it was suspicious and it might have been something else a murder to make it look like a suicide or a murder to make it look like a murder that doesn't look like a suicide doesn't at all i've never heard of suicide by placing your head in the path of an oncoming tire of a car and hoping it hits you and explodes your head like a watermelon has that ever happened before no throw yourself in front of the truck on the highway if you want not that's crazy nobody lays down on the road right no not that i've ever heard of no so she said she'd been there with ron and um there was talk about getting some dope they said i don't know what dope is to them anything yeah anything The hunters were looking to score the guys. They wanted weed.

Probably weed. The Duval's were trying to line something up from a 50 year old couple who lived down the road and sold weed. She thought the Duval's might be trying to lure the hunters outside on the pretext of getting weed and then beat them up. So the Duval party, like I said, bought her a six-pack, told her and Ronnie to take the fuck off. Men were fighting in an open area by their house. Now, here she said, she gets into more detail, she said they heard pinging, the kind of pinging an aluminum bat makes when it hits a ball. She said, I'll never forget that sound. She said, I'll never forget that sound.

While that was going on, Ron had crawled out the bathroom window and taken off down a trail behind her house to see what was going on. Why didn't he just walk out the door? They don't know. What the fuck? A little while later, he came back saying that they were killing the guys. They were lying on the ground, not moving, and the guys were still beating on them. Jesus fuck. Then they came by and knocked on the door and said, quiet pigs got to eat may 2003 now they have an eyewitness to the actual

murder through a dead man right who suicide himself the devolves are finally charged with first-degree murder okay finally um they uh they're they contend that this is crazy. There's no evidence. All right. Now, meanwhile, there's other people they found. Also, someone else in the headlights of a vehicle. This person saw said she saw the Duval's punching, kicking and clubbing Brian with a bat or metal rod until he lay on moving on the ground. So somebody else saw this as well. They said Dave ran away, but two men chased and caught him and then beat him to death.

They then threw the bodies in the back of the Bronco and one of the men drove away. Then they heard that they had dismembered the men and threw them to the pigs, just like they do with the deer that they catch. Basically, a spokesman for the general attorney general's office said

authorities do not expect to find the bodies of her because of this. Obviously. Um, they said, um, now the mother is, she's still Dave's mother still alive. She's in her eighties.

Right. And she said, it's been a long time, but maybe this is the beginning of the end. Um, so they have Donna Sch schultz they have um all that they the same some of the same evidence that points out her saying um that they were in bed and she's saying that you know he told her that he'd feed her to the pigs and all that

shit from that grand jury comes into trial because now it has now it's got corroboration that they actually do that shit yeah but what i'm trying to gather is, like, what's the fucking reason? Because they hit on some chicks? Yeah, they just felt like doing it. I mean, and they stole their truck, too. The Broncos, they cut that up. There's no reason to do this. This is crazy.

There's just, yeah, that's it. Boudreaux also, this poor woman here that we've talked about, the party hardy, she said one of her dogs had been shot on her front lawn and another one was run over by a vehicle since she agreed to testify. Wow. She's being harassed. She said someone threatened her grandchildren. She feared for her life, but she said that she has not been harmed in any way so far. She's been kept away.

that she has not been harmed in any way so far. She's been kept away. She described how she watched Donald Duvall swing a club, perhaps an aluminum bat, and crush Dave's skull. She said, quote, like if you drop a pumpkin. Yikes. Oh, that's fucking horrible, man. Jesus Christ, poor guys.

That is awful, man. I mean, Jesus, don't be grabbing asses, but good God. This is not the answer. Is this a good reason to stay the fuck away from mountain towns? Yes, yes, yes. I've been saying this forever. My cousin Vinny is the best possible scenario. That's the best case scenario is my cousin Vinny. Oh, God.

This is the worst case scenario. This is what I mean. So it's fucking nuts. You're not from around here are you that's this is what i've heard that yeah that's why i don't like going places where they say that because no connie sunberg uh who lived with donald devol for nine years coco she said she was at raymond devol's home in south branch in 85 helping make dinner when randy pulled up in a black ford bronco with wagon wheel type rims. Same one that Dave had.

So they said that they were going to take the Bronco away before we all get in trouble. That's what they said. So that's not good. Then several weeks later, he came home drunk and said, we killed someone. Under cross-examination, David Welch, the drunk from the bar, the unemployed construction worker, said that he hung out with hunters at the Mayo Bar. That was his seven-day-a-week hangout. He said, by the way, he answered his questions agonizingly slow in court because of a metal plate that was surgically implanted in his head after a crane fell on him.

Every time she turns the microwave on i piss my pants forget who i am for half an hour forget who i am forever now these are the defense witnesses there's one defense witness to ken deval the brother he testified he couldn't remember his 1990 grand jury testimony because of a combination of what he called quote crack cocaine use, a stroke, and Alzheimer's disease. How old is he? Oh, my God. Not old enough for that. Not that old. Then another guy who they bring in to testify is described as an amnesiac.

Why? He told jurors. There's trouble with that testimony, you guys. He told jurors he had inside information on dozens of high-profile murders, including this one. Oh, my God. Now, by the way, we'll talk a little more about it, but Raymond Duvall Jr. here, he's going to testify. And when he testifies, he was calm as can be when being asked about murders. As soon as they asked him about the pig thing, he got all fucking pissed off about it oh which is hilarious kissing a pig's pussy that part well we'll talk

about it yeah what he says in court so the defense is in their opening statement they said that this is just misunderstood understood bar talk by ex-girlfriends and others with an axe to grind okay okay so there's absolutely no physical evidence and they couldn't even prove that the hunters were in the county that point. Nevermind killed there. Also, there's an alternate brother theory. Okay. A defense witness named Daniel Dutton.

This is the amnesiac here. He says that a different pair of brothers named Artie and Mickey confessed to him that they murdered the hunters. Oh. So then the prosecutor said, aren't you an amnesiac? And he said, I am an amnesiac, but I'm cured. No, I'm cured.

I was an amnesiac. Then he claimed that various killers confessed more than 100 murders to him. He's just a fucking, it's totally crazy. He's just a magnet for this shit. He's the oracle they come to him for for permission yeah they said they said they sought his pubic hair to frame everybody's after my pubic hair to frame him with dna evidence for the 1992 rape and killing of

deanna seaford of warren and said they were all trained by Michigan serial killer slash rapist Leslie Ann Williams he said that wow the hunters were killed with hatchet blows outside a grayling bar then their bodies sunk in a nearby stream quote they stuck their fingers in the victim's mouth depressing the tongue until the lungs filled up with water Mickey Mickey had it down to an art. He's done it 30 times. Oh, God. But then he would like, it's ridiculous. Everybody in court was laughing when he would say this. Literally, the jurors were laughing.

The people on the defense, everyone's laughing at him. Like, that's a bad witness. So Raymond and Donald, Coco and Junior, both testify they never saw, met, or harmed any of these guys, these hunters. They take the stand in their own defense. They say the witnesses against them are lying or mistaken. Raymond says, Junior, he believes he was at an early Thanksgiving dinner that weekend when the hunters disappeared. And Coco said he couldn't recall where he was.

They both said they have never been to the Mayo area bar where the woman said they watched him get angry and beat them to death. One person said, here we go. On the witness stand, Duvall said this, quote, Jesus Christ. He said, after a drinking binge, he passed out in a pig pen adjacent to his house. He passed out in a pig. How much do you have to drink to sleep in a pig pen adjacent to his house he passed out in a pig how much do you have to drink to sleep in a pig pen when he awoke a female pig was positioned with her private areas in his face other party goers started the rumor that he'd kissed the privates the pig's privates and

told the story later on quote in court a court of law unasked by the way they didn't ask him about this he's talking about something else and he said quote they say i kissed that pig's pussy In court, a court of law, unasked, by the way. They didn't ask him about this. He's talking about something else, and he said, quote, they say I kissed that pig's pussy. I didn't. They said that when he did, he was talking, he turned to the jurors hard and said, they said I kissed that pig's pussy. I didn't. That was with the most. Okay.

That was with the most. Okay. So they're portrayed by everybody as violent, hot tempered, hot tempered criminals who threaten to murder people all the time and all this type of shit. They said they asked. They asked one point. And there's a big conspiracy of people who have it wrong about Donald Duvall. And Donald Duvall said, yes, there is. It's all nobody knows who I really am they said well

haven't you been in like physical fights with your ex-girlfriend Connie Sundberg and he said quote a couple of times and she won okay then he recalled an argument in which Sundberg picked up a gun and quote shot and missed him seven or eight times oh. And he said, I laughed at her. Oh, my God. That's a psychopath. Jesus Christ. He said he's not a violent man, but yes, he did break his ex-wife's jaw, but that was only because she got in the middle of a fight between him and her uncle, which means, obviously, I'm not a violent man.

Yeah. He said he occasionally fought with his other girlfriends, but not really. Junior said he owned as many as nine pigs where they lived in the 80s but he dismissed the notion that he used any of them for the disposal of hunters bodies that's crazy i don't know anything about that feeding that what about kiss practice come on i gotta make out with them closing arguments the district attorney says their human faces are nothing more than masks for monsters. That's what they said. She said this crime is an evil so dark your worst nightmare pales in comparison.

There's no understanding of pure evil, only the recognition of what it is. Okay. All right. Now, it takes the jurors 120 minutes, two hours to come back. Yeah. Everyone was shocked. It was like a week and a half long trial. They thought there'd be deliberations. Took them 110 minutes to catch their breath from pig's pussy.

Yeah. They're laughing. They're like, all right, we got to get down to doing this. Right. So they come back and they find both men guilty of murder in the first degree. Two guilty. Two of them. Helen, who is Brian's mom and is 84 years old at this point, said, I'm glad.

I'm just glad. They took my son. Oh, no, this is Arthur Till. This is the father. He says, they took my son. It doesn't bring him back, but it's something. I was glad to see them cuffed, and I can't wait to see them in chains. Defense attorney says, they said, are you going to appeal? And he says, certainly. It's a murder conviction. You can't wait to see them in chains. Defense attorney says, they said to you, are you going to appeal?

And he says, certainly. It's a murder conviction. You can't let that lie. Sentencing comes around. Not a lot of mitigation here for these guys. It's really difficult. Everything's bad. So they say, you shit-kicking woman

beating, jaw-breaking, kid-touching pig-fucking hillbillies, may fuck off life with no parole. Mandatory. Holy shit, man. Oh, man. Get fucked, both of you. So they're done. They tried to appeal based on the fact that they said there was no solid evidence, but they said there was literally eyewitnesses who watched you beating a man's skull in like a fucking pumpkin right

all the other stuff lines up the timeline lines up with them being there sorry in court documents a big pussy kisser i didn't kiss that pig's pussy that is a fuck they everybody says i kissed that pig's pussy. I didn't, did not, which the whole court was like, they said it was, people didn't know whether to laugh or just like, what the fuck just happened.

That's what he was concerned about. Not about murder, but the fact that they said he ate pig shit and kissed pig pussy. He didn't deny eating pig shit, by the way, didn't deny that. Didn't at all. So either way, that the michigan northwoods

my oh michigan my oh fucking my michigan what the shit are you doing good god brian and dave disappearing wow there's a case there it's terrible it's insane that's what i'm saying it's we needed a case that didn't have like a 16-year-old girl or a child involved. So we're like, how about two adult men killed by pig lickers? Let's do it. Killed by people who are into the art of pig filet. Pig conilingus. I was going to say pig filet.

Yeah. Pig filet. I'm like, that's wrong. Pigalingus they're into. So porkalingus. There you go, everybody. into. So porkalingus. There you go, everybody. Watch out for porkalingus. There they are.

Kissed her right in the bacon. Right in the bacon. The Duvalls are now in their 70s, so they're not getting out. And I imagine they'll probably, they probably had awful diets their whole life. They got a drop dead soon, I would think, right? I hope that lady's still okay. Miss Boudreaux, was that it? Yeah, I hope the rest. That's the thing. thing even if you put them in they have a whole clan the rest of the

family cousins and relatives and by marriage and just i'd move away everywhere yeah move the fuck away if i'm hurt get out of there go somewhere else follow your someone and your family's got to live somewhere else go there anyway there's, there's that. If you enjoyed that show, tell the world about it. Get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars and say something nice. It helps drive us up the charts. Really does. Also, follow us on social media.

We are at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, at Small Town Murder on Instagram. You want to head over to shutupandgivememurder.com right now. Get all of your merchandise. We have everything you can imagine. Everything from skateboards to notepads. We got it in there. Find it and get it and fucking carpets. You can get every blankets. It's all there. And especially get your tickets to October the 27th virtual live show Thanksgiving week or Thanksgiving Halloween. Or not Thanksgiving.

Halloween. We just did a show about Thanksgiving week. It's in my head. Halloween week. It's a Halloween spectacular. An extra creepy Halloween story. Will we wear costumes? Maybe.

I don't know. I might dress up as a turkey now. You don't know. Will we be complete hacks? Who knows? We'll find out. Or will we be professional comedians who go out there with dignity and perform? We'll find out. Or we'll be professional comedians who go out there with dignity and perform. We'll find out. You never know.

Either way, check it out. It's going to be available for seven days after that as well, so you can watch it even on Thanksgiving. You can watch it 100 times that week. You can buy it one day and watch it five days later. It doesn't matter what you do. Seven days. Shutupandgivememurder.com is where you get those

tickets or go to moment.co slash small town murder and uh yeah that is it's just like a regular live show except you're the crowd out there in your living room the setup looks the same the table and the screen and everything like that it's a lot of fun and if you can't get to a live show really this is the best second best thing for it people really enjoy these shows a lot it's a good social thing come check us out and uh keep an eye out for next year's dates as well they're coming they're going to be coming up next year a full lot of dates for uh the 24 2023 i believe is the year if i can get that straight so that sounds good patreon.com yeah slash Crime and Sports

is where you get all of the good shit. I'm telling you right now, you get so much good stuff there at Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. You get, first of all, the entire back catalog, which is over 100 episodes of bonus episodes.

So much. You've never heard. So much. Very bingeable. In addition to that, for $ dollars or above you're going to get this a cup of coffee you get at least four new episodes every month two crime and sports two small town murder but they're not the sports ones aren't really that

sports related you know how it goes it's you get a little everything so you get those this week what you're going to get is you're going to get for crime and sports, which you'll, of course, have access to, you're going to get the Danbury Trashers story, which is a mafioso bought his son a fucking hockey team, and they run it like a mafioso would run a sports team. Like, just go out there and break his fucking legs. What are you talking about? We're on the ice? Yeah, of course.

Obviously. And then there's all sorts of federal crime and all sorts of things happening that affect the hawk it's a wild scene man they really created something crazy we'll talk about that then for small town murder we're going to talk about the hayman lee adnan syed serial story we'll get into it i've done i've literally consumed every bit of anything there is and i'm talking documents everything i've gone in deep on this shit and uh i have my own theories i have a very simple theory as a matter of fact and uh jimmy i don't know if you do but we'll talk about those theories and talk about that whole case and kind of uh i don't know try to figure it out hayman lee deserves something she is and it's sad to say this but podcasting is

a viable business because of that first serial haymanman Lee is like podcast Jesus, as Jimmy said. You nailed it when you said that. It's sad, but yeah. She died so we all can live, and it's sad. It's sad shit. It's terrible. Either way, check that out. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports.

We'll make it funny, too. Don't worry. Do all of that, and of course you're going to get a shout-out. When are you going to get a shout out when are you gonna get a shout out right fucking now jimmy tell me the names of the people who would never ever ever have to deny giving a a hog oral pleasure could you do that for me jimmy hit me with them now this week's executive producers are craig ventura amanda wills bathroom floor cherry popper oh what oh that is disgusting what the the? Also, happy birthday, Madison Lauroar.

Right after that gross shit, happy birthday, Madison. Happy birthday. Yay. Other producers this week are Peter Schmuck, Myron Spermstein. Spermstain, I imagine. Spermstain? Cherry, what is happening, guys? Peyton Meadows, Paradise Campbell, cheer up, bitch.

Doofus McDoofus, David Fartsburg and his family, James. Martin Harvey. The whole Fartsburg clan. Happy Hour in Texas, Frank the South African Bird Washer, Janice Hill, Alexis, nope, that's Alex, Alex Cascio, Michael O'Doherty, Keith Ketchum, Amanda Sample, Moonlit Little, Haley B., Carrie Ann McDougal, Tara Greiser, I think, Andy Speicher, Ash Smart, Beth Eaton, oh boy, Jason Kaufman, Justin Gerard, Gerard, Gerard, Gerard probably, Paige Jay, Eddie Mayer, I think, Stephanie Inman, Leslie Logbeck, John Joyner, Andy Ferry, Justin Nelson, Todd Lopez, Sarah Gama.

Oh, boy. Oh, I'm so sorry. Gassam? Gassam Zadeh, I think. Amber with no last name. Hugh Jass, James, obviously. Sam Jennings II, Alyssa Meadows, Lorene Bidstup. Brandon Pinnell, Lori Cox, Christian Garcia, Brenna

Hennessey, Alexis Etheridge, Frank Guido, Kat Max, Stephanie Machine, Jonathan DePaula, Suzanne Silverstein, Abigail Harris, Robert Nelson, Adam DeRosier, Jason Pounds, probably, derosier uh jason pounds probably uh grace dumas uh chris but but meyer what yeah casper lago uh aaron lilly i think tim egan bob with no last name mike kozlowski kate ariel uh sarah keach sherry gillis john seaton beth donovan chad bishop sheila torres e muncie i think uh robert Seaton, Beth Donovan, Chad Bishop, Sheila Torres, E. Muncy, I think, Robert Stanford, Dava Dava, Dava Barnes, Matt Stromsoed, EA Wakefield, Jennifer Speroni, I think, maybe Sperone. I don't know. I don't know.

Brian Carr. Oh. Put a pronunciation key in there for my man. Oh, God, Jesus, I just burped. Alex Berrios. Saruk JJ? I don't know. Sandy Center.

Karen Sheets. Heather Dobbs. Scott Shattuck. Bam Bam with no last name. Zach with no last name. Jeff Gladden. Gladden. Brett Thomas.

Scarlett. Colleen. Colleen Scarlett O'Hara, probably not, but possibly. Britton Uriardi, E. Inez, Anne Trimble, Topher with no last name, Todd Runberg, Jamie Bursey, Jessica Suarez-Gorski, Carrie Lynn Van Pay, Corey Witt, Stephen in West Virginiaia or stephan jack thompson uh nathan lights leets i don't know brandy with no last name wesley carlton christy d'angelo sherry lynn sakala i think jennifer mcmillow milovsky milovsky keaton carol smith sims her oh boy her all if her all for Aronson, Arnason. It's never going to work. I'm so dumb.

You're close. All right. Walker Mason. Megan with no last name. Nikki Salich, I think. Christopher Slater. Ben Potter. Karen Stewart.

Kayla. Chela. McD. Shannon Baldwin. Jorin. Jorin. Jorin. Garcia.

Megan Johnson. Melissa Carson. Brittany Green, Laura Wickeser, LaKaiser, Loretta Morant, Justin Larson, Jacob Chester, Pedro Nieves, Chris Gilson, Gabrielle with no last name, Elle with no last name or first name, Kim with no last name, Seth Owens, Travis Grimm, Sharon Tinley, Emily Joy Carey, Michelle Schneider, Brandon Bailey, Andre Crabtree, Michael Bordwine, Stephen Wolf-Brown, Wetty, Wetty Debbie. Jesus, that feels awful. Frank Harris, no name at all.

Paige Holmes, Christy McFarlane, Nathan Davis, Jeffrey Below, I think. Chelsea Gilmore, Slumber Boot, 622, Slmore, Slumber Boot622, Slumbery? I don't know. Slumbery. Tanya Bettsinger, Brian Hall, Chris Dion12, Kimberly London, Claudia Chavez, Tim Lewis, and all of our patrons. You guys are truly amazing. Thank you.

Thank you, everybody, so much for everything that you do for us. We do appreciate it. And keep hanging with us. You are amazing. Can't wait to see you at live shows for everything that you do for us we do appreciate it and uh keep hanging with us you are amazing can't wait to see you at live shows and everything else and if you want to follow us on social media real easy to do head to shut up and give me murder.com there's links to all that shit or just google search small town murder podcast host there should be only two of us if there's any more let us know and we'll kick them in the dick so we'll we'll feed them to the hogs god damn it or eat some pig shit for five dollars either way keep coming back and seeing us again and again and again and until next week everybody it's been our pleasure Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music.

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