Small Town Murder - #322 - The Ninja Cowboy Butcher - Davie, Florida

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

This week, in Davie, Florida, A night of watching the family's favorite tv show turns into a terrorizing ordeal, involving knives, guns, and a man who is wearing a ninja mask & a straw cowboy hat. This is all unspeakable horror & violence, but it gets even worse when we find out who the killer is, and what their past looks like. Turns out, he has done something even worse, in his past, and all seems to be coming full circle. Will this night of horrors finally put him away for good?Along the way, we find out that even suburban Miami was nothing but horse farms, just a few short years ago, that some people just want to watch the world burn, and that sometimes, you CAN judge a book by its cover!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Davie, Florida, an evening of TV watching suddenly turns into a bloodbath when a man wearing a ninja mask and a cowboy hat begins the systematic slaughter of a household.

Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us on this insane edition of Small Town Murder. Crazier every week, it seems like.

And this week is no exception. We're going to get into just weird stuff. That's all I have to say. I mean, there's a ninja mask involved, so do I need to say more? It's pretty weird. Before we get to the show, very quickly, thank you for everything. Thank you for coming out to live shows. Two more regular live shows left this year, and then we're going to announce a whole slate of new ones for 2023. But head over to shutupandgivememurder.com and get tickets to the virtual live show. Yes. Oh, my goodness. We cannot wait. October the 27th, Halloween weekend. I can't believe it's coming up so fast. So fast. It'll be available for seven days afterwards, too, so you can get it any time during that week.

You can watch it ten times. You'll do whatever you want with it for a week, basically, there. Get that. Just like a regular live show. Always wanted to come to a live show. We're not near you. Come to this. Same exact thing, except you're kind of in your living room instead of a theater but other than that

it's the same thing you will see us same thing it's going to be just so much fun we cannot wait shut up and give me murder.com is where you get those tickets or moment.co slash small town murder either one so that and also patreon. You want to do Patreon. Yeah. So much fun on Patreon. Patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above. A cup of coffee or more.

So affordable. You will get everything including the whole back catalog. It's binge worthy. There's over 100 episodes. You can binge on that. And then on top of that, you're going to get two new episodes every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder, and you get access to it all.

This week, what we're going to talk about, not a lot of sports for crime and sports. It's mainly crime. We're going to talk about a mafioso who bought his son a hockey team, a minor league hockey team. And then there's so much crime and federal involvement. The Danbury Trashers.

There's a documentary about it. It's hilarious. It's a really weird story. We'll talk about that. Then for small town murder, we're going to talk about one that, God, people have been asking us since we started to talk about. We're going to talk about the whole entire Heyman Lee serial Adnan Syed case now that Adnan got released. We're going to talk about what do we think about this whole thing? We will give our opinions and I have studied this so thoroughly.

It's ridiculous. So I have a lot of very detailed opinions and I know Jimmy does as well. So we're going to give you who we think the killers killer could be and whatever. So there you go. Check that out. Patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of that. And sure, that will get you a shout out as well. And absolutely. go check that out patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of that and sure

that will get you a shout out as well and absolutely your name will be butchered at the end of the show by jimmy unfortunately even though he wants to get it correct so yeah that said i think it's time for the disclaimer it's a comedy show it is we do a comedy show there is murder here where there's terrible murder and And there's ways around that. It's not. Because, honestly, I think the real heavy one sometimes, a real Solomon, then he cut her head off. It seems even creepier for some. Not even fun.

It makes it even weirder for some reason. It makes it seem like whatever. So we try to lighten the mood a little bit around it. But what we don't do is we never make fun of the of the victims or the victims families why james because we're assholes but but we're not scumbags everybody that sounds good to you we are going to hear a crazy story of some wild murder if you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together even you know i don't know well maybe we're not for you maybe we are i don't know either way no complaining later if you check it out. We warned you.

So with that said, I think it's time, everybody, to sit back, clear the lungs of wherever you are. Not too public of a place, I would hope. Maybe your living room or something like that. Sit back and shout, shut up and give me murder. All right. Let's do this, Jimmy. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we?

Let's do it. We are going to Florida this week. Again? Again. We just got, not on the show, but in real life, we just got back from Florida. And as we're recording this, a hurricane is pummeling Florida. And this isn't on purpose. We do the schedule ahead of time.

And this is the story that's done. And this is what we have to do. So we try to do like, we usually do a state after we get back from it on tour. We'll do that because then it's like, hey, we have a little insight because we were just there. And so whatever. But, yeah, we're not trying to – Keith, Kyle, Katrina, Hope, and Nick, I hope you're safe. Jesus Christ.

Not trying to kick anybody while they're down. Yeah. And then there's a hurricane too, so it's rough. You know what I mean? It then there's a hurricane, too. So it's rough. You know what I mean? It's with the Florida people in general. So it's rough. So we're going to Davie, Florida. Now, people are going to say in Florida, there are people typing on social media before they listen to the show.

Before they even listen. That's not a small town. That's not a small town. I know it's not a small town now. Now it's not a small town. But now is not when the murder happened. This was a very fast-growing area. It's outside a small town now. Now it's not a small town, but now is not when the murder happened. This was a very fast growing area. It's outside of Miami.

So now it's kind of connected to the Miami metropolitan area. It's by Hollywood, Florida. It's right by there. Oh, but at the same time, back in the 70s and 80s, when these different murders occurred, there was hardly anybody there. In the 70s, there was less than 20,000 people there. And then in the late 80s, there was less than 40,000 people there. So qualified for our small town.

It was like horse farms. There was nothing to do with a metropolitan area. Now it's suburbia, but it wasn't then. So delete your tweet. There you go. Davie, Florida. It was known as Cowboy Town back then. That's how not metropolitan and urban it was

cowboy town florida cowboy town which is what you think of in florida as cowboys you don't think of cowboys and if it's a cowboy hat it's like one of those weird kind of curled up sides with like it's made out of like a skin of a reptile or amphibian or something or it's made out of a a case of fucking budweiser something like that yeah yeah something trans case of natty lights just natty light cardboard so just to keep the sun off your fucking neck that's all it is giving you cancer made a hat out of natty lights and people are like it's a good move it's a good move it's in southeastern florida just outside miami like we said it's about 20 minutes to Fort Lauderdale.

Oh, yeah. About 35 minutes to Miami. And it was this middle-of-nowhere place back then. It's about four and a half hours to St. Augustine, Florida, which is our last Florida episode. And that was the soft serial killer. And that's exactly what it sounds like. That was a crazy-ass episode. This is in Broward County.

A couple different area codes, 754-954. Now, a little bit of history here. This place was kind of founded as a town by people named Tamara Toussaint and Jake Tannenbaum. Toussaint and Jake Tannenbaum. The original name was Zona. Z-O-N-A. Yeah, like Arizona without the era um rp davy was one guy assisted then florida governor napoleon bonaparte broward stop it go and elect people okay i'm gonna here's

a why would i don't know if that guy was a good uh a good uh governor or whatever but generally if a person's name is like an aggressive dictator don't vote for them like first and middle or last if they're named after that i feel like probably they were raised in a weird strange way if a man named pol pot wilson runs for governor of cleveland don't vote for that man well but edie amin martinez has done a fine job in New Mexico from what I hear. I hear he's brought things around better than expected. Honestly, nobody expected it to go this well for old E.D. Amin Martinez, but he's doing phenomenally down there. Why would they do that?

E.D. Amin Hernandez, the new mayor of El Paso, I hear. He just was elected. So, I don't know. Either way, these two, R.P. Davey and Mr. Bonaparte Broward here, they were the guys who drained the swamplands. How? Beats the shit out of me. A lot of paper towels. I don't know.

I don't know. I can't even siphon gasoline. It's the quicker picker up there, James. We're told. You'd need a lot. You'd layer. I think they siphon. I think so. I got it. Here we go. Okay. know i can't even say gasoline yeah we're told you'd need a lot if you'd layer this i think so i got here we go okay i gotta go in but then you just make a swap somewhere else

wherever you put it yeah wherever the hose goes there's no fucking there's no bath plug at the bottom you can't just pull it and let it drain i guess so well either way once they got it all out robert parcel davey who was rp d, he bought 27,000 acres in this joint. Okay. And he built a school there and everything else. And this was when it was Zona at the time. So the people in 1916 were so grateful that they renamed the town after him. Oh, thank you, Mr. Davy.

You've done so well here. Basically, it was mostly underwater to begin with, this place, because it's part of the everglades and um yeah it always had a web a web a web it had a web it had a webutation well the next word is western that i was saying so that's where i got my my letters mixed up but it had a webutation as a western town with many earlier basically they had wild west architecture like yeah that which didn't really fit into florida which was all like just like spanish architecture yeah yeah you know the look of the buildings it looked like tombstone there that's how they built it which was very strange like tucson old tucson studios or something and it had everybody there had horses everybody there

rode horses around they had cattle This was like you were living in the Old West or something down there. It's all wet. Wouldn't that break your horse's ankle, you think? They somehow siphoned it up, Jimmy. It is the quicker picker-upper. I'm telling you. Hilarious. They had the ones where you can rip the regular size one in half

and choose your size. It was no match for those paper towels. So it still had a real western feel, basically, to the whole thing here. The population has skyrocketed in the last 30 years or so. Right now, it's the most populous municipality labeled as a town in Florida. Is that right? There are the top three places in the united states that are still towns that have huge populations are carry that reno okay yeah carry north carolina outside of

raleigh and gilbert arizona which you know very well and arizona there and by phoenix and then this place davy so let's get to some reviews here this joint see what we got let's do it all right here's some reviews now like i said this is current reviews so this is mainly just for comedy Let's do it. Broward College, and even an extension site of the University of Florida. But another thing that Davy has to offer is its rural farmland type feel, but it's also suburban type feel. And not only is it diverse in the way it looks, but there's all types of different people in Davy. Though the majority of people are white, the other half is made up of Hispanics and African Americans.

No punctuation whatsoever in any of that. That why it's confusing so hard to do and there are just and these are just some of the reasons i love living in davy all right uh four stars in this city the atmosphere is beautiful we have a good diversity in neighborhoods such as my neighborhood which till this very day i have made good friends, especially a person named James Martin since the first grade. And what I like to see improve the city is a little bit more affordability with houses. Hi, James Martin. Shout out, James. She gave a positive review to a single person.

To James Martin. How specific is that? I don't know about the rest of the town, but there's a guy named James Martin there. It's a hell of a fella. So good place. I've known him a long time. Wow. Three stars.

I've lived in Davie 22 years since 1996. About two years ago, oh, until about two years ago, it was really quite an excellent little town. Then suddenly the city started allowing thousands upon thousands of rental apartment units to be constructed some parts of davy have always had traffic issues but once these apartments are occupied it's going to be an absolute nightmare i have no idea forecasting it's fine now but i have no idea what city officials were thinking but they are in the process of ruining a very nice little community where are all these people going to drive? Where are they going to go?

Two stars. Maybe this is the, the traffic has gotten worse now. Now it's bad. It's an update possibly. Two stars. There is a lot of homeless people and trash around. Okay. Many of the homeless people around are very poor.

Well, probably all of them, I would assume. As a matter of fact, I'm going to go out on a limb. Every last all of them, I would assume, as a matter of fact. I'm going to go out on a limb. I'll bet every last one of them. I'm going to go out on a limb here. Probably not a lot of eccentric millionaires just living on the street because they're weird. Probably not too many, I would assume. So I'm going to go with most of them.

Oh, this is better. Many of the homeless people around are very poor and they are usually naked. Well, that makes it much better. No wonder why they're poor. Where are they going to put any money? They don't have pockets. They're also homeless naked people here. Yeah.

I would assume they're poor also if they don't even have clothes. They don't even have a shirt. Yeah. You don't have socks. You definitely. Not even. I mean, no one in Florida has a a shirt but they have there's like eight shirts in the whole state that they trade when they have to go to court that's how florida works

oh he's got to go to court and you got to mail it to someone with their next court date there's only eight shirts but everyone has a lot of shorts chikatilo that guy went to went to court in a fucking government uh olympic shirt it's just an olympic shit yeah what are you wearing that's hilarious so people in this town uh nowadays it is 106,621 people holy fuck it has spiked in 1980 there was 20,000 people here in 40 years yeah it went nuts and some of our stuff is in the mid 70s where there was even less people than 20,000 and then some of our stuff is in the mid-70s where there was even less people than 20,000. And then some of our stuff is in the 80s where there was about 40,000 people there. So still out there in both of our places.

So calm down, everybody saying it's not a small town. We assure you it was. So a few more females and males. Most of the age groups here are like 25 to 34, 45 to 54. That sort of thing. Those seem to be the age groups. are like 25 to 34, 45 to 54, that sort of thing. Those seem to be the age groups. Married populations lower than normal by a few percentage points, nothing crazy. Single people with no children is actually about usual, about normal.

It's kind of a suburban type of place here, pretty average in terms of stats. Race of this town, 46.4% white, 8.4% black, 5.5% Asian, 36.8% Hispanic. So it's pretty spread around there. Religion in this town, 37% religious, which is lower than the national average. And the most here are Catholics, which is a- Is that right? Because there's so many Hispanic people. So they get more Catholics. And yeah, other than that, they're not the Baptists of the South down here. We do get 1.3% Jewish.

Oh, my God. It's been so long. I know even less words. We get to sing it, though. Oh, ha, ha, Nagila, ha, ha, Nagila, ha, ha, Nagila. I don't know the words. Hey. Jimmy's singing Cypress Hill backup.

I like that. Nagila. Good move. I like that. Like send dog. Yeah, there you go. It's a send dog it up, man. uh political like send dog yeah there you go it's just send dogging up man in Broward County uh where Miami is too politically 64.5 percent democratic in the

last election 34.7 percent republican 0.8 percent independent the unemployment rate's pretty low around here pretty lower than the national, which is pretty low anyway right now. Median household income, a little bit higher than normal. Right now it's about $57,000. Here it is $64,170. So a little bit more cost of living, though, a little bit higher. A little bit higher. 100's regular average here, it's $118,000. So a little high. Housing, a little higher than that. Median home cost here at this point, $ 000 so and oh my god that's a little higher than normal crazy and a lot of that is because a lot of the properties are bigger than normal properties in florida land because it was started out as like a horse area so a lot of these properties are an acre half acre acre and a half things like that rather than like you know these

crammed in like track housing type things that are more in the suburbs here. So if we've convinced you, damn it, you need to go to Cowboy Town, Florida, USA, we have for you the Davie, Florida, real estate report. Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for $1,591. That's above the national average. It's a little pricey. It's a little pricey.

It goes along with the housing. Now, I tried to find some bargain housing here. I found a three-bedroom, three-bath, 1,200-square-foot. It's a trailer, but it's one of those trailers that doesn't look like you could tow it away. It's got like the... It looks set. It looks set. There's stuff around the bottom of it, like a garden and shit.

It looks like it's been there and it's supposed to be there. And no one just drug it in from the road last week and planted it. It's been a while. It's been a while. It's up to date. Everything inside. It's clean. It's nice.

$100,000 for this thing. Is that right? Yes. Now, I don't know if that includes the lot it's on or if that's just the trailer. Then you've got to pay lot rent and all that. I'm not sure how that works. Now, this next one, though, this one you get the lot that it's on and everything. This is it.

It's a package deal. It's a huge trailer, this next one. It's the biggest trailer I ever heard of. Four-bedroom, two-bath, 1,600-square-foot trailer. That's big. Is that a triple-wide? I never heard of that before. How do you get it that big?

Let me get me one of them triple stacks, would you? I don't know, but it looks fancy, though. Inside, it's all remodeled, really nice. It's really nice inside. It's a beautiful place. $195,995. Not bad. Not bad. Not bad.

Now, let's say you've done real well. You have like a nightclub in Miami that you own or something. You want to get away on your weekend house. I found a five-bedroom, seven-bath, tea bowl for each and every b-hole and then some. 10,648 square foot. Insane house. It looks like where you would, I'm sure it's just a line of porns being made in it all day long.

It's one of those houses. It's a house for a successful porn producer from Miami. It's got a sick complex of like pools and jacuzzis and water things that go into each other. It's bonkers. 5,960,000 bucks for that. So anywhere from a hundred bonkers five million nine hundred sixty thousand bucks for that so anywhere from a hundred grand to six million we can get you in there so there you go incredible so things to do here in davie florida well then i mean obviously you can go to miami which is like a half hour away yeah plenty of stuff to do or drinking that's always something

to do or you can wait hang on to that energy till february and go to the town of davy orange blossom festival parade and rodeo yeah and rodeo this it's this place has a definite still tries to keep that like western theme to it okay um oh it's got like a cowboy boots and a hat as their little logo and everything they're gonna have a movie in the park and the first night here join us as we kick our orange blossom kick off orange blossom the office spelled of that's why i fucked that up with any kick of with an evening of family fun enjoy an excerpt of state of rodeo okay and our feature disney film jungle cruise okay there you go so you get that you come bring your blankets hang out then

saturday it's on though that's when you're going to have rides and arts and crafts vendors cowboy town historical display hey hey now uh the 4-h farmer's market all sorts of live music the laser light show oh man this is a good place to take some mushrooms let me tell you something i would love to go here and take mushrooms and ride a horse take some mushrooms fall off a horse and then watch a laser light show and wonder if it's really happening or if i've just fucking messed my brain messed my neurons up enough to screw it all up here and watch her watch the rock movie that's it just watch the rock um Food and beverage available for purchase. The parade grand marshal is TC and Dina B from Kiss Country 99.9. Two radio people.

The morning radio folks will be there. You'll see their faces and it'll appall you. You got them. Who's going to be performing? Well. I can't wait we have uh remedy d r-e-m-a-d-e-e remedy remedy remedy um it's remedy remedy mr nice guy will be there that's that's helpful uh the new shadow creek New Shadow Creek. That sounds like a winery, right? It sounds like a place you go

it's like an inn where they have wine. Jacob Velasquez, he'll be there, thank God for that. And then you gotta close the whole thing out with the South Florida Cloggers. They're gonna be there. I wonder if Jake Velasquez is the guy

that plays guitar for a lot of bands he's really probably not knows what are we digging into this get out of here so i don't want to know and as soon as that wraps up that's when the red white and country laser show starts that doesn't rhyme red white and country laser show thank you davey florida but you can have all that one thing that you can't have are pets or coolers no pets no coolers eat dick people or blue or any of that shit it's just red white and country no blue red white and country laser show the gates open an hour and a half prior to you can come to get your spot you know what i mean you want to really camp out for that laser show also we know the uh remedy uh tickets are going to go fast and you're never going to

get close to the stage if you don't get there early so you're gonna have to do it here also hit up the uh the kiwanis pancake breakfast also that morning i want to know what kiwanis and the fucking shriners and the rotaryary Club do. You fuckers, keep it real quiet. I don't know what Kiwanis does. They're a club of some kind. What was the other one? The Shriners? The Shriners I know do hospital shit.

I don't know what their original reason for gathering was. Don't know about the hats. I don't know why they gathered, but somehow they put things, they have excellent hospitals where they do amazing things. They don't them and then what that tells me they're doing that because they don't want you to look at the other hand and what does the rotary club do i think that's like what the fuck is a rotary is that a i think it's a local business organization i think it's like a local small business organization it's kind of like the chamber of commerce but i think less

political if i'm not sure or more political one or or the other. I'm not positive. Why the fuck do they call it Rotary? I don't fucking know. It probably was started in 1850 when that meant something different. By Mr. Rotary? And it was his club? Jonathan Rotary or things, you know, rotated. Ted Schreiner? Who the hell knows?

Yeah. William S. Schreiner. These motherfuckers. Sons of bitches. So crime rate in this town. What we're interested in here. William S. Schreiner. These motherfuckers. Sons of bitches. So crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here, property crime, just a little bit high, but nothing awful, like 10% high. Not that crazy. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is below average here.

That's great. Below average, 20% low, maybe something like that. So it's still a very reasonably kind of a safe area that is within striking distance to miami so right you know not bad here that said let's talk about some awful terrible murder that happened here okay someone who went too far oh boy this is a this shit is crazy we're going to talk about a bad guy and a series of bad people and an origin story of a bad person also is going to be mixed in here this is a wild thing here so let's start out in 1988 okay so we're going to start out 1988

it is like everybody here has horses it's a much different area okay we're going to start out with robert and donna decker okay robert and don Decker, husband and wife, they're both 37 years old. They have been married for 16 years here. So they got married in 1972, and they kind of moved around a little bit, and two years earlier, in about 1986,

they built a house here in Davie, Florida. Built it. Robert has a construction company, so he's a. Robert has a construction company, so he's a carpenter, and he built, you know, him and the people who work for him built this house from scratch. Wow.

They bought it. It's a 1.11 acre lot, so right now that's a big lot near Miami. That's big, you know? He's not the Ann Decker part of those carpentry tools? He knows nobody named Black, no. Nobody at you know. He's not the Ann Decker part of those carpentry tools? He knows nobody named Black, no. Nobody at all here. He blew it.

He's a carpenter doing it. Absolutely. They built a three-bedroom, two-bath, 2,713-square-foot house here at 1651 Southwest 116th Avenue in Davie. And the house still stands now, so he must have done a hell of a good job yeah so don't bother people who live in that fucking house please jesus christ it's bad it's bad enough trust me they don't need you there so they know and if they don't fucking don't tell them we'll put it that way so let them sleep and if you live in that house and you're listening to this you're just a listener of the show and you're like do they just say my fucking address i'm really sorry for what we're about to tell you

if you didn't know this shit already so wow um anyway they by 1988 they have a two-year-old son named carl so that's they waited a while to have kids yeah little carl i guess every everybody named carl was once a baby but that's a fucking weird name to call a two-year-old that's what i mean well we talked about gus a couple of weeks ago and there's nobody named gus and then yeah everybody named Carl was once a baby, but that's a fucking weird name to call a two-year-old. That's what I mean. Well, we talked about Gus a couple of weeks ago, and there's nobody named Gus. And then somebody tweeted us and was like, I have a two-year-old named Gus.

That's hilarious. And we're like, awesome. He's the only one. That's so cool. That's a good kid. Give that kid like a Kangol hat and a cigar and send him off to preschool. You need him.

He'll do it. He'll do it on his own because he's cool as shit. Put a newspaper under his arm. Yeah. There you go, Gussie. Let's go. Head on down, Gus. Gus.

So, yeah, they have a two-year-old named Carl. Now, when they moved in, their neighbor here, because this is kind of a rural area at the time, like we said, and the neighbors are kind of close-knit, and they're very nosy. And there's a neighbor named Esther Mayberry. Stop it. You know Esther's noticing people moving into the neighborhood. Who's over there? What's going on?

Writing down license plate numbers. She described Bob Decker as, quote, like an all-American neighbor, a clean-cut husband who loved his kids. Some people you see move in, you just know they're going to be trouble that was just not the case with these people so that's a that's a weird way of calling somebody something all right an all-american clean-cut husband who loved his kid i don't want anybody to ever call me that no no i think i've done a pretty good enough job making sure that nobody ever calls me i'm sure i don't think those words are going to come up with either of us, probably.

Either way, this old lady, though, the nosy old lady, who I'm sure has something bad to say about a lot of the neighbors, decided that they were okay from the beginning. She loves Mr. Decker. Loves him. Loves the Decker family. They seem like a wonderful little family here. So they move in, and eventually here, Clyde Decker will move in as well for a while here. That's Robert's father, Clyde. He's 76 years old by 1988. He moves in with Robert and Donna in October of 1988 because Clyde's wife died, not Robert's mother.

It was, you know, she was already gone. His stepmom. But his wife died, so he was lonely, and he moved in with them. He's not doing great. Yeah. So Clyde so he was lonely, and he moved in with them. Not doing great. Yeah. So Clyde begins assisting Robert in the construction business as well. Oh. I don't know if he's hauling beams or anything at 76, but he's at least.

Still mobile enough to throw a hammer. I don't know if he's doing HR or what over here, but he's helping out in some way, shape, or form. Might be ordering shit. Who knows? That's what I mean. He could be a foreman of some kind. I don't know what the fuck he's doing. So enter another guy here let's enter charles panigan p-a-n-o-y-a-n panigan charles charles panigan um now charles also works for robert he's worked for robert for a long time

in the construction business they they met in the early 70s. So they've known each other since Robert was really young and they knew each other well. I guess Charles Panaghan helps Robert a lot. He really, really helped a lot with the construction of the home, of Robert's home. Yeah, they spent the most time there together doing everything. So keep costs down, obviously. So he's a real good friend of his. and the guy he trusts to come over and say, hey, you're you're my good carpenter.

Come help me build my house. You know, you're not going to take the goofball. You're going to take the good the best best guy you have to do your own house. So anyway, that's that's how this works. They're good friends. They all know each other. Charles comes over all the time for whatever reason, drop stuff off, work things, whatever. So November 4th, 1988. Let's start here. Okay. Charles Panigan was working on a construction site with Robert and Clyde that day. Clyde's out on the site.

Look at him, man. 76 out on the site. Wow. He glides out on the site. Look at him, man. 76 out on the fucking... Wow, not bad. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast.

We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinks Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. In May of 1980 near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder,

decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It was payday this day, and Robert paid Charles Panayan $500 in cash for pay. So good for him.

Now, later that evening, they go their separate directions charles goes his way and uh charles does say hey later on um i have some venison i'll maybe i'll come by and drop that off for you later or either way yeah i got a bunch of venison so too much for me just too much so if you know's a hunter, that's, they always have too much meat and they're always trying to give it to people, which is great because deer is, is delicious. I will say, I don't want to kill it myself, but if someone's making it, it's pretty good. But you've got to, there's ways that of killing it that you've got to get done. Otherwise that meat is fucking awful. I would assume.

Yeah. I'm hoping that they know what they're doing. they're that gamey shit is terrible yeah i'm hoping i'm hoping they didn't just drag it by the ankle onto a fucking barbecue and hoping they knew what they were doing you gotta kill it fast if you just let it like bleed out and die slow like all that shit gets into the meat and it's so gross you don't want that so either way that day um robert uh Clyde, his dad, and young Carl, who was the boy, two-year-old boy, they go to a restaurant for dinner. Donna's working that night. She works. She is a hairstylist at the JCPenney.

Oh. There is a hair shop inside JCPenney there that has – it's like Hollywood, whatever boutique. She's a hairstylist there. So she's working that – In the area? Yeah. She's working in the evening. So the three guys go out to dinner here.

Guys, three-generation guys night out here. So good times. They get home now. Carl, Bob Decker, and Clyde get home at about 8.50 p.m. They come in. Now, this is important. They were rushing home to get home before 9. Had to get home before 9 o'clock.

What happens at 9? Dallas is on. Dallas is on at 9. Can we get the check, please? nine is 8 45 dallas is almost off someone's going right full rain man it's definitely 19 minutes to dallas it's definitely 19 minutes to dallas uh so oh no oh 17 minutes to dallas like somebody's doing that if you don't know what dallas is dallas was a kind of a nighttime soap opera primetime soap opera of better very rich oil family yeah the whole any any show that does

a who shot so-and-so cliffhanger it's based on dallas doing the who shot jr cliffhanger so it's a whole big deal it was a phenomenon and um they are hooked boy on, on Dallas. It's their loss. Oh, yeah. They're coming home for Dallas. And back then, there's no TiVo. No. You can't stream it. You can't fucking stream it later.

You can't just watch it tomorrow. Yeah. I was going to start with you can't tape it. You can't stream it. Or you can't TiVo it. You can't stream it. So that's three different decades. You can't do any of it.

None of those things are possible. If you don't tape it, you miss it. How crazy was that was that that's it you have to hope they re-ran it sometime well they do reruns in the summer so hopefully i'll catch up on that in four to eight months four to six months that'll be great otherwise next week you're fucking lost you don't know what's going on yeah you gotta tune the fuck in so they're not gonna going to fall to that fate, though. They're going to get home for Dallas. And they do. They said they pull up about 8.50, plenty of Dallas time, you know, kick off the shoes, put your sweatpants on.

Shit, you can make some microwavable popcorn still. Get ready. Oh, there's time. There's time. So when they get there, Charles Panian is at their house waiting waiting he's like sitting on their front stoop waiting for him and you watch too yeah i'm here for dallas obviously robert says what are you doing what's up what you doing here and charles is like obviously dallas is on i can't watch that alone need someone to talk to about it um sitting here waiting on the key to the front door no shit well he's like i brought venison for you he's like oh yeah cool right on that they brought that venison so he goes well we got to get inside

and watch dallas so you want to come in and watch dallas because that's what we're doing and charles is like sure i'll watch some fucking dallas why not let's go inside so now these four three grown men and a baby are going to three men and a baby are going to watch Dallas. This is perfect. All right. Everybody's gone. We got a lot of different things going on here. So they're going to watch it. Now, before the show started, I guess Charles Panayan stood up from his chair and said something to Clyde.

And Robert couldn't hear what he said. Robert was looking the other way. I don't know if he was adjusting the fucking cable to make sure Dallas was going to come in clearly. I see him. Fucking bunny ears. I see him like squinting, moving the bunny ears, one bead of sweat coming down, little piece of tinfoil that way. He's like, I got to see J.R. Ewing in all his goddamn glory for Christ's sake. Jesus. Want to hear this shit?

God damn it. Patrick Duffy's back. I'm watching it. I want it in grainy, clear grainy vision. Oh, babies, clear 80s over-the-air antenna. Shitty picture. Shitty picture. So I guess Charles told Clyde he's going to go to his truck and get the venison.

He was sitting on the porch, so he didn't have the venison sitting on his lap, because that would have been weird. So he's like, I'll and get the venison he was sitting on the on the porch so he didn't have the venison sitting on his lap because that would have been weird so uh he's like i'll go get the venison now so um yeah anyway there they go so uh robert bob watches charles come back through the door with a big package of venison and um puts it down on the counter and charles panty and returns to his chair there right in front of the television and uh everybody's ready to watch dallas it is like here we go it's like 859 it is the theme music is about to kick everybody it's breathless it's a breathless time in the house watching that last folgers commercial before the shit kicks off even carl is fucking enamored he's even he is glued to the television at two he knows this is an event so it's in a

u-band commercial you know u-band's a good enough substitute for volgers it's not bad maybe i'll try uh coming on hold on all right shut up shut the fuck up but daddy i god damn it i will break your skull no just kidding so they are uh they just as this happens now, just as Dallas is about to kick in, somebody else comes in the door. Bursts into the door. Yeah. Behind, you know, the just newly closed door. Okay. This man places a gun to Clyde's head immediately.

Oh, God. So stranger bursts in, places a gun to Clyde's head immediately. Oh, God. So stranger bursts in, places a gun to Clyde's head. Now, if that's not terrifying enough, let me give you a description of this man. Because even if he didn't have a gun, you'd either crack up laughing, throw a miniature Snickers at him, or fear for your life. One of the three. I'm not sure. Here he is. Okay.

He's described as a white man. He's somewhere within two inches two inches of five foot 10. So he could be six foot. He could be five, eight. I don't know. Somewhere in that, in that region. Um, he's wearing new work boots that are clearly new blue jeans, uh, a jean jacket. Of course, obviously he's got the, the Florida tuxedo on there, a yellow plaid shirt, brown

work gloves, a Ninja mask, and a yellowish white straw cowboy hat okay what the fuck kind of outfit is that it sounds like it sounds like the outfit of the worst wrestler ever is what it's like some terrible independent wrestler like what are you a ninja a ninja cowboy landscaper what the fuck are you doing it was orville peck's first draft before what he became that's just a strange why would you wear the ninja mask you didn't have it clearly he wants to cover his face yeah have anything else and he picked up last year's halloween costume i think so or he thought it was cool he thought ninjas were cool and he's like this is pretty dope and then oh you know what it's missing though a hat i always seeing these ninja movies

they're missing a hat i'm always like accessorize guys come on i get the one outfit comfortable but the hat's not gonna mess up your movement you can do it you still have range of movement you can do those big kicks so he went hard with the cowboy oh yeah yellow shirt all the jean yeah it's the strangest outfit ever it's and then the ninja outfit and on top of that if that's not terrifying enough a gun to the old man's head on top of it it's a rusty 22 revolver oh so you're like jesus that makes it even more terrifying somehow does it even work i don't want to find out yeah so he says you harder it's like me is it going to be worse now is it gonna give me tetanus and a bullet wound i feel like i don't know how dirty so this guy this ninja cowboy gunman here

he's a ninja cowboy gunman he says the ninja bandit says quote you all go over there and i'm gonna put handcuffs on you he says lay on the floor in the living room so while they're doing this robert asked charles pan again he goes do you know who the fuck this is do you know this guy and uh panian doesn't say anything he's just, I'm trying not to get shot at this point. So he's being very quiet. But Robert, it looks to everybody like Robert sees that he thinks he does know him, basically. He said it looks like Charles is trying to hide something here. So, all right. Now, they all do this.

Charles, Clyde, and Robert all follow the instructions. And the gunman here handcuffs all three men here, handcuffs them. Then has Robert show him the location of a floor safe in a walk-in closet in the master bedroom. And he knew about it right away. This guy, the first thing he said is, go to the floor safe. He knew, not do you have a safe, where is it? He said, go to the floor safe. He picked Robert up it? He said, go to the floor safe. He picked Robert up and said, let's go to the floor safe.

So that's somebody who knows something. He's aware of something in here, right. Yeah. So it's in a walk-in closet in the master bedroom. Now, when he looks at the safe, I guess they get in there, and the gunman is not convinced that the safe is not hooked up to a burglar alarm of some kind of some kind of trigger or panic or some kind of something built into it so he's like this could be a trap this could be a trap so now by the way young carl crawled in

walked in behind his dad in the bedroom so he followed him into the bedroom. So at this point, he orders, the gunman orders Robert and Carl to lie down on the floor. All right? Kids two. Kids two. So imagine the distress of this. You don't understand how imperative it is for you to shut the fuck up. This is the best parenting thing I can do right now is to tell you to shut the fuck up and be fucking still so um i guess if he yelled at if he yelled at the kid the kid would listen from what everybody says here so

couldn't find anything finally they get the safe open he's convinced it's not hooked up to a burglar alarm they pop the safe nothing but like nothing really in the safe they don't have anything of value in the safe it's just it's safe is there in case they have to put anything in there, but there's really nothing in there. Small change they found. So now the guy, the gunman here, he orders the Deckers into the master bedroom. Everybody into the master bedroom. Let's go. Clyde, Carl, Robert, everyone in the master bedroom.

And he starts ripping any phones out of the wall that he could find, the gunman, just ripping all the phones out that he could find. Basically, in the master bedroom, doesn't really do that thorough of a job. But he's like, I see a phone, yank. If he sees a phone, he yanks it out, but doesn't go in like a systematic hunt for phones. Just none within reach of these people. Like a see something, say something kind of. Exactly, yeah. Totally.

So this guy here, he grabs Clyde from the living room and the old man the 76 year old and drags him down into the master bedroom and throws him onto the bed okay pushes him onto the bed this sounds like it's going to get sexual but it's not yeah to be to have him sexually assault to have a man in a ninja mask and a straw cowboy hat sexually assault a 76-year-old man, I can't even talk. My brain can't process that right now. It's too much. Even at 76, he's seen a lot in this lifetime, and that's not something you want to see looking over your shoulder. That's never the way you think you're going to go out, probably.

No. I doubt. Never. Never, never. So this man was probably in World War II. Yeah. He's like, I never So this man was probably in World War II. Yeah. He's like, I never thought this was how it would go. So he's in there.

The gunman then ties Robert's feet together and then returns to the living room. Okay. Goes back to look for more. He's going to go pillage. Now, Robert, while he's in there, they're alone, the three guys. He has Carl laying next to him on the floor, kind of holding him, telling him, you shut the fuck up. Robert manages to kick his feet enough to loosen the ropes around his feet.

So he does this, and he moves over, and he looks out of the bedroom doorway down the hall and can see into the living room from there. See where this fucking guy is at, right? Because otherwise, at that point, you're going to start throwing your kid out the window and tell him run run away from the gators and toward the neighbors where's esther go find esther and don't come back here find miss mayberry tonight yeah go move and run so um either way uh he goes to the doorway to see where everybody's at. And what he sees in the living room is he sees the gunman talking to Charles Pantyhann in the living room. Pantyhann's in the recliner chair because he didn't put him in the bedroom yet. Okay.

Now, he says that, I guess at this point, he sees the gunman and Pantyhann are whispering to each other. They're whispering. Now, at this point, they, I guess, sense Robert. The gunman turns around, sees Robert standing at the bedroom door, and he's pissed. Now the gunman marches back to the bedroom, ties Robert up again tighter. Pantyhann here, clearly everybody thinks, OK, this something is suspicious. Yeah. He at least knows who the fuck this guy is, obviously, if they're whispering. And also, he's the only one not tied up. So that makes me think that something's up there.

None of us have any clue who he is. They seem to have a previous relationship. So what's up with that here? Now, I will tell you who these people are just so you know who we're dealing with. I'll give you a little back story on the gunman here. He does know the gunman, Charles Panny Ann. The gunman in the house is named Dana Williamson. Dana Williamson, he's born in 1960, so he's about 37 at this point in time, 38. He has a brother named Rodney Williamson who's five years older. That's 28, right?

I'm sorry, he's 28. Yeah, what did I say? 38? I meant 28. He's a young man. He's a young guy. And he's got a brother who's five years older than him named Rodney who is outside apparently of the house as well. Now, a little tidbit on Rodney and then we'll give you Dana, all right?

Rodney had a shit childhood. He got kicked out of his house at 15, and since then, well, he joined the carnival, was the first thing he did. Yeah, of course he did. He became a carny. He operated carny rides, worked as a gas station attendant, tries to be like a writer. He's got all sorts of weird jobs. Now, why the hell did he get kicked out of his house at 15?

Love to know. Well, let's see here. At the time, there was Rodney, Dana, and then younger than Dana was a younger brother named Vernon. And they have a father here and a mother named Ella. The father's name is Charlie, I believe,

and the mother's name is Ella. And on Christmas Day, 1969, Ella dies in a car accident. Jesus. Which, I mean, that'll be traumatic for anybody. Fuck yes. For a family. Mom dies on Christmas. Yeah.

Christmas Day, that's brutal. That's brutal. So everything changes from there. Mom held the family together, and once this happens, Dad can't keep track of these kids. He's got his own concerns. The kids start running amok, and when Dad gets remarried, everything changes here.

So Dana, though, we'll talk more about him. His problem started with the death of his mother, obviously. As you would imagine here. At the time, I think he was, what, nine at the time? Too young? That's a good answer. A little young for that. Dana's father remarries very quickly.

And that back then was very common. Back then, a guy like Dana's father in 1970 would just be like, I don't know how to do anything. I don't even know how the washing machine works. I don't know how to cook. I need to get a wife to take care of my kids. That was the mindset. Too many babies in this house. Exactly.

Well, he finds a woman and marries her. She has kids of her own as well. Uh-oh. And those kids and the Williamson kids don't get along. Perfect. Perfect. So everything's going great. And thisson kids don't get along. Perfect. Perfect. So everything's going great. And this woman apparently doesn't like the sons either.

So, I mean, if you're going to get remarried, you have to find someone at that point that's going to be super empathetic to the fact that your kids just lost their mother on Christmas Day. You know what I mean? That's got to be a sensitive thing. You've got to know that you've got to come into it with a sensitive heart saying i'm not here to replace anybody but i'm sure that didn't happen no she came in with an i don't give a fuck about these kids get them out of my way and these are my kids we will take care of these those will eat when these eat that's exactly how it is man so um dana after this happened he ends up in a in like a mental facility for a while.

Oh, shit. Yeah. They said a court psychologist at that time said it was a long time before he knew his mother had died. It wouldn't. He had like a weird reaction where it wouldn't like settle in. Yeah. He wouldn't do it. And they said he missed the period of the family's period of grief because he was like in a mental facility. So he didn't he didn't like be part of the whole family together grieving. So that was a problem there. Apparently, too, he went to live for a time with a friend of his mother's in Miami because he they found out he was being abused at home in 1970.

Because they found out he was being abused at home in 1970. So less than a year later, he's already being abused. His mom's dead. Yeah. So he went there and he ended up running away from his mother's friend's house in Miami and came home. Yeah. Yeah. Because his brothers are there too and shit. He is going to be just in and out of foster homes, private placements, the children's unit of the South Florida State Hospital, Pembroke Pines, all sorts of places. He'd always come home afterwards, and then there would be a major problem, and they'd basically reject him again.

Dana had it rough for a while here. That's a tough cycle. Absolutely. I would say 1971, he comes to the attention of the Department of Family Services here in a petition asking that they be home of a relative at that point and so a judge awards custody to the state so the court records indicate the father offered no opposition and in fact refused to take dana when prompted to really yeah basically said i don't fucking want these kids here yeah it's it's crazy that's that. I mean, granted, back then they didn't fucking know that, but that is so dangerous. It's bad.

So, I mean, yeah, if you think about these kids, they had a normal family one day, and then the next day they're in a series of foster homes and different people's houses and relatives, and they have a, quote, new mom, and then there's other kids. It's got to be a weird situation for these people. They were a son, and then in the morning,anta brought them to be wards yeah exactly no shit santa brings you permanent sadness this year there you go oh the box is empty it's not empty actually kid it's got permanent sadness in it unwrap that it's tears forever oh my god so they said that he played he was placed in the south florida state hospital where he um that's the one place where he did the best apparently in 1971 they said he never ran

away he never ran all the way away everywhere else he'd run away from but there they said a couple times he went out to the parking lot and came back so he was like where am i going never mind so um they said here's a psychologist said of him quote he carried with him an enormous burden of rejection he always wanted to go home to this day he wants to go home he was a charming boy the kind of patient doctors feel for in a special way she said that a christmas one time, the father, during a Christmas period, the father agreed to let Dana spend a few days at home. So that's nice. She says, though, quote, he wouldn't allow the boy to come home until Dana got his hair cut.

So Dana did that. He and his brother Vernon were in bed Christmas Eve. Finally, we're here with our family on Christmas Eve and we're going to have a real day. When his father or his father's wife, one of the two, overheard him apparently, the boys saying something negative

about the father's new wife. Like they didn't like her or she was mean or whatever the fuck. So they pulled the kids out of bed and fucking brought them back to the state hospital in the middle of the night on Christmas Eve. Oh my God. Yeah. Can you imagine that shit?

No. Being rejected. And Christmas is such a big deal to them. That's what I mean. It's such a sensitive period. No. And she, they say like her,

her ham sucked or something like that. And they drug them back to the flight. Go sit in your ass. That's wild. Unbelievable. So the psychiatrist was asking also, why does he keep returning home if he knows he's going to be rejected? And the psychologist at the time said, because home is a way of life, a pattern of living children are comfortable with, which is true. Kids will stay in abusive situations because

where the fuck else are they going to go they don't they think that's life yeah they think that's where their center of whatever is and they're supposed to be there so uh she this person goes on to say i asked him uh meaning dana why once he ran away from a certain foster home and he said because they're the kind of people who feed the dog in the kitchen. He ran away from a foster home because they feed the dog in the kitchen. I don't know what my dog's eating the house. Is that a symbolic of something bigger? Yeah, that's got to be a metaphor for something, right? Well, he said that to him was more significant than the unpleasantness he found in his own home so he's looking for excuses is what that is it seems like i don't fucking know um then

he went to stay with an aunt and uncle they the hospital released him to their custody and he ran away again so his father charles or their father was twice held in contempt by juvenile court judges for non-payment of child support. Also to the state or to whoever the foster parents. Once in 1970 for payments owed in support of a daughter of his. And again in 1974 by a judge for being in arrears of $440 concerning Dana. in arrears of $440 concerning Dana. The father was confined to Broward County Jail for 60 days

but then paid somewhere in the middle and didn't have to serve the full sentence there. Over $440? $440. This is in the early 70s. It's more money now than that. So court records repeatedly refer to the father's efforts to rid himself of his five

children, all of whom at one time or another received the attention of the juvenile court and the department of family services so his father's a fucking asshole basically sure is jesus wow i hope his mother was nice at least jesus counselors and court doctors who dealt with dana told a story of a boy burdened with guilt one who suffered from repeated rejection by his father and others. They basically say that one of the doctors said that he's not saying he's a healthy kid and you've, you know, all that shit. And he's just got a couple problems.

He said, actually, he's a borderline psychotic who responds to stress by engaging in flights of fancy, becoming unaware of what is real and what is not whoa which he's been doing ever since his mother died and he just decided she didn't die he just makes his own reality at certain points that is a wild thing to say about a child about a child yeah like i know you feel bad for him but don't feel bad for him quite it's that the doctor's telling you that in the 70s he's also a borderline psychotic so we're worried about him essentially so yeah um in the early 70s here we're talking 74 75 now so he's 15 ish he lived in the nova center for living and learning okay everything's named after the old town the nova center for living and learning or no that's zona not nova yeah yeah but no nova was uh it was

called nova at one point too right i thought it was zona you said nova about something else fuck i don't remember either way it's a residential behavior modification setting for emotionally disturbed children that's what it's called it's not a jail it's not like a thing like that it's a like a hospital yeah like a facility for for help um now this is between stays in foster homes and shelter homes and uh he stayed in some of these agency shelter homes where they would have a single family home with a single couple taking care of as many as 18 children oh my god he'd be in like a group home. So many kids. Where my mom lived in Arizona when I was a teenager, there was a group home, like five houses up the street from her.

Yeah. All these fucking girls lived there. It was crazy. It was like facts of life over there. It was fucking wild. But they were like super delinquents. Yeah. Well, across the street from our house, we just had like people with major challenges.

Super. They were all in wheelchairs, but super, super messed up. They had super problems. They're going to be quiet, if nothing else. No. They were so loud. As a child, I didn't understand it, so I was just scared to death. Yeah, I could understand that.

Yeah. Well, your parents should have explained that to you. What? Hey. yeah i could understand that yeah well your parents should have explained that to you what hey i had the worst blah blah blah instead your mom's like going look at fucking shaky over here what my mom would just like look and then see see and hear the noise and just grab us and put us in the car and we'd leave but i was like what the fuck's happened should we call the cops oh my god but there was it was a group home this one was just they were just delinquents who had like horrible upbringings or you know parents beat them or abused them or molested them or yeah these were all they were cool chicks i guess we were like i'm sure they were they were nice i mean i got along with them friends with them you think they felt safe away from the but they

probably didn't still i have no idea so who knows so um danger in those places sometimes is just as bad yeah yeah i didn't think that was going on over there because they were all pretty pretty comfortable and not that yeah and everybody was pretty cool, I think. But either way, he ended up in Dana here, made, they said, just countless stops at the Pompano Juvenile Detention Center waiting to be placed somewhere else. He'd always just be in flux going somewhere. One court psychologist said it was like a second home to him, the Pompano Juvenile Detention Center. That was like coming home and then you get sent somewhere else but he'd be like oh i'm back here good this is my one solid there's no handcuffs and such right it's just a place i well the juvenile detainee i think this is just a place

where they house him for a little while because the state has nowhere to put him until they find another foster home here said he made friends and stuff like that but he'd move around so much he could never keep any friends. So it was mainly just his brothers when they could get near him. His older brother, Rodney, though, took off and joined the carnival and everything. So he got himself out of the situation. So one time during a stay in the Pompano Detention Center here, a woman he met liked him, not sexually, but a woman felt bad for him. Sure.

Jesus, mom died on Christmas Day, and here's the whole sob story, and she says, holy shit. So she talks to the family services about the possibility that she could adopt him. Oh. Yeah. So they took trips together. They did frequent counseling sessions together to make sure the state you know make sure she's okay um they said that during his private counseling sessions he made frequent references to her and the home that she was going to provide him with and how great it's going to be

and it's going to be wonderful and then one day she just stopped coming and never contacted him again what the fuck just didn't just change her mind it was like quit just quit said fuck that kid um she later said she when they found her later on she told juvenile court officials that she suspected dana of stealing and that's why she stopped she thought he was stealing from her so um apparently that was an accusation made quite frequently against him by everybody everywhere he ever went so it's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart.

And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller,

available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn

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Yeah, one of those here. The psychologist said for a long time after that, Dana continued to express confidence that the woman would return for him of course she never did it was another rejection one of many so he had this same attitude he was like no she'll be back tomorrow it was like six months later she's coming don't worry and they're like dude she's not coming she's like she's never coming again and you possibly stole from her won't return your phone calls won't return your letters it ain't happening he's like no no i'm sure she's just busy now like he's one of those kids who's just the next the next set of headlights is going to be her i'll just wait on the porch yeah that's rough so that's a tough way to go um maybe my mom will be pulling in right behind her yeah one of those so um one psychologist

was asked why dana continued to be ainary problem, even for people he apparently liked, like this lady. What the fuck? And she said, who the fuck knows, basically. She said, we have no idea why. It's just something he did, whatever, comforted him. We have no idea. by the court reveals that Dana considered himself a weak and worthless boy and that his actions often sprang from a well of fear and hostility within him. Yeah.

As a child. And this is all shit. Basically we got to deal with as a child while we as a society can still give a shit about it because once you're 18, it's like, okay, whatever package you have, you got to ball it all up,

put it in your pocket and walk down that fucking road without interfering with other people's lives at that point. So your childhood is a white elephant gift exchange. Yeah. Only you can't give it away at the end. No, you got you're stuck with it. And that's it. So you have no idea with your fucking handmade oven mitt. Anything that's not fixed.

They get fixed now. You know, it's like you live in a place where winter gets real bad and you're like well we didn't fix the roof well we're not fixing it now 30 mile an hour winds too cold we're fucked we're screwed so that's kind of how it is here so uh with one interviewer he left a distinct impression that under the right circumstances he could learn control and to redirect those impulses somewhere else. But they also said, a psychologist also said, that's true. But at the same time, quote, he's not well. We would never say that he is.

But the problem is a lack of long-term treatment center for emotionally disturbed adolescents. We simply had no good place to put him. So they just moved him around. There's also violent behavior exhibited by him and witnessed by psychologists during counseling sessions. One time, he really, basically they figured that he felt provoked, threatened, angered, and upset about just about everything. Those are the words he would use. And it was for very little things. They figured that he felt provoked, threatened, angered and upset about just about everything.

Those are the words he would use. And it was for very little things. He'd freak out in a counseling session and, you know, kick over a fucking desk or something for no reason. Out of nowhere. The psychologist said that the violent acts initiated by Dana without provocation would surprise her. They'd just be having a nice conversation. He'd just have a huge violent outburst for no reason. She said, quote, he was not a problem in

that regard, either at SFSH or during his many visits to the Pompano Detention Center. So they said, she said, quote, I'm treating several people about his age now who probably should not be out on the street, but they are. Again, we just don't have a good place to put them.

She said that he will overload under stress, borderline psychotic. Quote, he needs limits like those established at the hospital. He wasn't ready for no living and learning where he is awarded points for good behavior. The intensive treatment and supervision at the hospital should have been tapered off gradually. They just went to from you're in a hospital to freedom out of nowhere. So he's being told what to do every day. And now he's able to do some things and he doesn't know how.

Yeah. And every time he would get a little bit better, they said the children's unit at this hospital only has room for about 50 kids. And so they have to handle the most serious cases. So as soon as he starts showing signs of improvement, they boot him from the program every time. And then he starts up again and then they put him back in when he's serious. So it's just this constant circle that's going on. So it's rough. So 1975 here, he's at the Nova Learning Center. That's where he's being placed. And it's not a jail. There's no gates or fences or handcuffs or anything like that.

It's just it's like Job Corps kind of except you kind of have to be there because you're a minor and you're assigned there. So it's like the county jail in New York. You can just wear your clothes, but there's all these beds around. Yeah, but that's got fences around it. This doesn't have fences. This is the interior. Yeah. This is like got fences around it. This doesn't have fences. There's the interior. Yeah, this is like a school, basically.

It's not a jail. It's just like a, you know, almost like a... But they've got beds there, right? They've got to be able to sleep somewhere. Yeah, they sleep here and stuff. Yeah, it's a whole center. I mean, it's like Job Corps. That's the best way to describe it, as I can put it. Because I had new kids that did that.

It was similar. So February 16th, 1975, he takes off from here from the nova place now technically it's not a it's not an escape it's not a criminal thing uh but he's supposed to be there so it's kind of this gray area of can he leave or not but yeah yeah you're not allowed to leave but it's not really a crime if you leave because you're not sentenced to be here it's just kind of where you've been placed and you should be there so it's one of those so um if the cops find him they'll return him to the place they won't put him in jail it's one of those things so february 16th 1975 he's 15 years old he takes off with a 13 year old named roland menzies m-e-n-z-i-e-e really yeah that's some name that's some handle you got there roland

the you want to hear something worse you know what his father does for a living he's a gynecologist he's a doctor jimmy i don't know if he's a gynecologist but i'm gonna say close enough with dr menzies right i think that's close enough it's gotta be that sounds like a like the brand name of a terrible product for women like dr menzies fucking cramp be gone you know what i'm saying it's really got like opium in it or some terrible drug that'll make your eyelashes fall out or something he named his kid something that sounds like slang term for your period you want to go out tonight i'm rolling menzies i'm rolling menzies right now baby luckily for him he's 13 and probably doesn't know that yet

it's like why do all the older kids make fun of me i don't get it it's really weird why don't girls like me they like me but only for like a week and then they hate me again i don't understand they don't want they don't ever talk to me again until the next month i don't get it his father had to overcome this and was like i will go to medical school and dominate this myself i'll learn about this this thing that's ruined me for my entire life so how does how does a doctor have a kid that's being forced to be in a place like this kid's a fuck-up i mean fuck-ups a fuck-up yeah the kid's a goddamn disaster and this is crazy

because this they don't do much better of a job with this now by the way i'm not going to say that things have improved that much but in the 70s they did not have shit set up to deal with kids of this nature they didn't have kids they didn't really really realize it it was just you know it wasn't like that back then they didn't there's way more emotionally disturbed kids than there than there used to be i think maybe is what do you think the rise of serial killers made us want to focus more on children's uh uh adolescence and and coming of age no i think did it i think the rise of juvenile crime made us do that this all started in like the early 60s when the

when like there was a huge spike in juvenile crime that was a if you look at anybody's like political ads from the early 60s it's like i'll stop this courage of the juvenile crime wave every single person is juvenile crime wave juvenile crime wave so it became a thing of like we got to lock these kids up so then they figured we got to lock these kids up. But then they were like, well, some of them are real fucked up. What do we do with them? Well, we'll stick them in this hospital. There's only 50 beds, but we'll keep it going like that.

Okay, well, then what about when they're done there? You seeing these plates start to spin? Yeah. Okay, well, we can put them in this foster home here. They have 18, but then when another one comes in, we'll put him out. We'll look for new places while they're in there and maybe get oh shit that's another one fuck i'm a toe in this business oh jesus christ it's a lot of plates to spin yeah and it all falls down it's it's it's solving the problem oftentimes becomes like planning a murder because the and then what

is the really complicated fucking thing to get to it's so hard you don't know how to fucking fix a kid who knows and also there's no real um you don't really get credit for no that's not where okay a politician's not like we're gonna fix these kids politicians go we're gonna keep you safe by putting that kid you're afraid of in jail right that's what a politician says the politician that says we're gonna fix these kids gets called a pussy by the other guy who says i'm gonna put it i'm gonna put a 12 year old in the electric chair and see how they like that that'll learn them that'll teach the other 12 year olds not to do the shit he did yeah no it doesn't it doesn't probably but either way it's a it's it's interesting basically that there's and we don't

have the answer i'm not saying now we know better or so who the fuck knows we still haven't figured it out there's still tons of screwed up kids More than ever now because the population is so much more. True. Either way, he escapes. Dana and Roland Menzies here are taking off. He's going. They're going to flow on out of there right now. They're going to go paint the town red.

They're going to paint the town red tonight, baby. You know it. town red they're gonna paint the town red tonight baby you know it that is disgusting hopefully nobody will damn up their fun here that's what we have to so we have to hope for oh how early in the week depends on how much fun we're gonna have you know this could be a heavy flow of fun that we never even thought about. Yeah, we may have to wait until Thursday. That's right.

So the anyway, they were spotted hitchhiking that day. I had to say spotted. Thank you for laughing at that. I'm like, I hope he catches spotted. They were spotted i have i have seen in my notes and i'm like oh no no they're definitely spotted they're certainly spotted somewhere yeah uh there's the menzies boy. I don't know who's with him, but I could see him from a long distance. So, um, Jesus Christ.

So he, uh, they're found hitchhiking near where Williamson, Dana Williams, his father, Charlie is known to live. Okay. Uh, in Miramar. Now the boys are, I guess that day they hitchhiked to near where their dad lived where his dad lived williamson's dad they spent the afternoon horseback riding at the williamson home yeah how mad would you be all right you live in a horse place like you live in a your house has fucking horses running around and shit and you have to stay

in the nova learning center and foster homes and be like fuck you man i'll live like the horse for christ's sake let me get a spot in the stable at least i'm home give me a stall and a trough of gruel i'll be all right yeah i'll figure it out just throw some cheeseburgers in there instead of whatever you give them and i'll fine with that shit so um either way that's what they do um williamson also a construction worker by the way charlie williamson um they were i i guess um he called once they were there he called the center the nova center and asked if the boys were missing did they get released or the you know did you let them go or do they take off or what the fuck's going on here why are they at my house riding a horse here and they told no they're missing they were they're

supposed to be here certainly but they're not so charles tells them i'll return them don't worry about it i'll bring them back soon so he said i'll bring them back to the center so that's all good now the boys were also seen near the menzies home as well. They were seen there the next day. So the parents of the Menzies parents, Dr. Robert Menzies and his wife, Mama Esther Menzies. Mama Menzies here. Cantankerous pair. Wow.

Robert and Esther Menzies. Holy shit. Dr. Menzies. Are you kidding me? Doctor? Stunning. That is remarkable. They're both faculty at Nova University in Davie, where the father is in the chemistry department. So he's a doctor in chemistry. Trying to figure out what the fuck's wrong with you ladies how to shrink down period times is what his he's been working on

that for a while now he's like if i can get it down to a solid three days across the board i feel like this whole country will be much happier so um at that point the um they said they had voluntarily taken their son to the center with his problems he wasn't like put there by the state they took him there they did some research and thought this was the place to take him to said they had voluntarily taken their son to the center with his problems. He wasn't, like, put there by the state. They took him there. They did some research and thought this was the place to take him to. So apparently that night, though, they spent the night at Dana Williamson's father's house, according to this. And the next day, Williamson drove them to the center.

That's what he's going to do. So he drops them off, but he drops them off several blocks from the facility for some reason. Makes them walk? We don't know. This is the thing. We don't know if he dropped them off there because it was more convenient or if they lied to him and told him

that's where they were. It was at this house over here or something like that. We don't know exactly what happened here. You think he fucking knew where his kid was? Come on. No, and I don't think he gives a fuck that's what i mean wherever you want to be dropped off just don't come home he probably asked the kid for gas money when he got out of the car gas ass or grass and he's mr menzi so we're gonna go with uh with gas or grass at this point so um at this point um near here there's nova hills farm is right by here by

the way this is what i mean this is a different place out here than it is now uh nova hills farm there uh this is where the wagner family has a family horse and pony are boarded so they're boarded at a horse farm they have two children christ, Christy Wagner, who's six years old, and Peter Wagner, who's four years old, that are playing with the horses at this horse boarding place with their families. Babies. Yeah, little kids. Apparently, the two little kids wandered off from the horse farm while the parents were busy with something. Yeah. And it's all nature shit.

So they didn't wander in the middle of like oncoming six lane traffic. They wandered off down a hill and there's a small canal on the property that's owned by Nova Hills Farms. And this is about a half mile away from the rehabilitation center from Nova Rehabilitation Center where the kids are, where the old were Menzies and Dana are. So they're kind of hanging out, and they find they come across these two little kids. Apparently, for no earthly reason, they attack these two little kids for no reason. They physically start beating and kicking them.

A four-year-old and a six-year-old. Okay? They beat them severely and then take off they don't go to the center they go on the run from there they take off because of what they just did okay now they the little kids there's a search for them because the parents said oh shit where are the kids it's a four-year-old and a six-year-old. Yeah. So eventually they came upon pretty quickly. But they're in terrible shape. Peter dies 30 minutes after he's found. The four-year-old. Oh, my God.

Four-year-old was kicked to death. Oh, dear Christ. 15-year-old Dana Williamson kicked him to death. A fucking baby. Okay? And they beat a six-year-old girl so severely she was hospitalized for weeks after this but she ends up surviving the attack this is horrific fucking horrific this is out in some like orange grove out in the middle of nowhere

beyond a farm this is fucking horrible for a poor little kid life for that's what do you do with that kid that's a 15 year old that did yeah okay what do you do with that kid that's a 15 year old that did yeah okay what do you do to that kid that's why they said borderline psychotic we don't know what the fuck to do with him this is what they mean jumped over the line guys that's what he jumped into over the line of everybody else's problem now you know what i mean at first it was a it's his family's problem and then it's you know. Now it's everybody's problem at this point. He's certainly not borderline anymore. So the next day, Menzies is, he's scooped up. Yeah.

They sop up Menzies from the side of the road at one point. He turns himself in. Sponged him out. Yep. They found him. They don't find Dana for for four days though oh it takes four days to find dana um they had been listed as as runaways there and everything so they asked charlie williamson the father what the fuck basically he said i brought the kid i brought the kids to the center about 5

p.m on monday i don't know what you're talking about and they're like well about a half hour later two kids were beaten one to death he said quote i dropped them off at the front door of the center and i guess they never went inside now they didn't um obviously so um now they're talking even her he's got a sister who's 17 named named Donna who's defending him this whole time saying he's just wanting attention. Well, that's not a way to get attention. Well, he's got it. The feds likely now. He's got a lot of attention here. And she said he even liked it at the mental hospital because he got attention there.

So they finally catch Dana. They catch up with him. A 15-year-old moron can only go so far. Uh, Menzies, he couldn't get away cause they just followed the trail the whole time. It was very difficult. So the,

uh, the Davie police chief, Dale Peterson, he questioned Williamson and said that they, uh, uh, you know, they said that he ended up admitting to it,

Dana, and said that they did it. So why'd you do this? What did the kids do to you? What the fuck? They didn't do anything. Did it, quote, just to have some fun. Forever.

You never let that kid out. Just to have some fun. That is fucking wild. He's got a lot of problems, I would say here. This is beyond little bits of problems. So they're being held. Both boys being held on charges of homicide and an assault with intent to commit first degree murder. They're they're being treated as juveniles now, but they're talking about, you know, charging them as an adult, as adults, even the 13 year old. So they said the press talked to their families here. Charlie Williamson said that his son was over.

Dana's overcome with grief. He said, looks like he's been crying for hours. I bet he's in jail for fucking murder. He also said this is the father. I feel deeply for the parents of that little boy and the little girl. What has happened is unforgivable. Both boys need help of some kind. Yeah, I would say so.

You know what? You could have lent that help, I don't know, any time in the last fucking six years or so. Maybe if you would have tried. You are worthless, sir. You suck. You're a shit father. Let me tell you that. Charlie upside down fucking M.

Yeah. Charlie fucking M. So he, that's funny, upside down. He also blamed the whole thing. He goes, well, the boy's mother died. I mean, you know, his mother died on Christmas. Right, but you're his fucking dad, and you've got to pick up the pieces, man. Also, then you compounded it over and over and over again by kicking him out.

You've caused this. You know, you caused this. You're certainly culpable. They said they're going to try the kids as adults, and he said he had no comment on that decision. He said it was the grand jury's decision. Let them answer for it. What are you asking me for?

Well, because it's your kid, so we wanted to ask you what the fuck. He said that basically he says that all the court records of the juvenile stuff don't even reflect the truth. He goes it's bullshit. He says they never knew what to do with juvenile stuff don't even reflect the truth. He goes, it's bullshit. He says they never knew what to do with him. And he said, believe me, I'll have a lot to say later. I could write a book about all this. Well, please don't do that.

I don't want to read it. No, I don't want to read this idiot's book. It's going to have a lot of misspellings in it. Let's just put it that way. Chicken soup for the idiot dad's soul. Fuck. Chicken soup for the terrible soul. That's just awful. Chicken soup for everybody but my son soul. Fuck. Chicken soup for the terrible soul. That's just awful.

Chicken soup for everybody but my son because I'm a bad dad. Because I'm a terrible dad. Oh, make that the rest of my five kids as well. So, yeah, they want to try him as an adult. They're talking about it. The indictment was by the 18-member grand jury. Almost two full days of testimony there. I guess they're going to be transferred to the Broward County Jail.

They have to do all this shit. And I guess the way they're talking about it, Menzies' parents get him a lawyer. Really? By the way, they lawyered him up. Good, because they have money. Don't have money. And this guy does not. Dana has no lawyer, obviously.

He's got public defender at this point. Florida law permits regular prosecution of anybody over the age of seven. You can charge an eight-year-old as an adult. Okay. Which is just a ridiculous statement. Yeah. That's like saying that you can call a cat a bird. Like that's just, you're a bird now.

Well, no, you're still a cat. It's a species thing. And you need wings. There's a lot you need to be a bird. Can you lay eggs? You have babies a different way. Certain qualifications for birddom. And as a matter of fact there's also

certain qualifications for adulthood and none of them are when you're eight years old james fitch gill specialist in bird law i know bird law trust me i know my bird law no this is fucking ridiculous though eight seven yeah there's a difference between a puppy and a dog, and you can't do this. If a kid, it's not even a puppy and a dog, eight is nowhere near an adult. No. An eight-year-old is just as close to being a dog as they are an adult person. Yes. They're just as close.

There's a reason we don't let them vote. Or do anything. Anything. Literally nothing. Be responsible for a thing. There's a reason we don't let them vote. Or do anything. Literally nothing. Be responsible for a thing. If you tell an eight-year-old, go brush your teeth, you check in on them to make sure they're brushing their teeth. You don't even trust them to do that.

When they say they brushed them, you go check the toothbrush. Yeah, that's dry. Yeah, that's exactly what you do. So that, to me, is just an asinine thing to say. Well, we're charging this eight-year-old as an adult and you should then laugh and change the law because that's stupid words have no meaning now of fucking no adults and adult we don't have eight-year-olds fighting wars no for a reason and if you asked an eight-year-old an eight-year-old i don't care if they butchered 30

people if you sat them down and say why'd did you butcher 30 people? They'd start talking to you about fucking Pokemon. They have they're not on task or on subject. There's a problem there. They're eight. It's crazy. So the they said they asked the special the state's attorney whether there'd be any special problems trying a 13 year old, you know, as an adult. And he said, there's always a problem in trying juveniles when you have a minor accused of committing crimes against another minor

obviously so um anyway they have a huge hearing all these psychologists all this type of shit the judge also recommends charges be brought against charles williams and the dad for negligence for dropping the kids off at the center and not else. Yeah. Yeah. If the charge would be contributing to the delinquency of a minor. And they said that the judge made the recommendation based on advice of his professional staff,

which has dealt with Dana since 1970. And basically, the father's been a big part of this the whole time. and basically the father's been a big part of this the whole time. So they said that the doctor who runs the center said if the boys had been returned all the way to the center, they would have been met outside and checked in, but they never saw them out there at all. Adult to adult handoff. You don't fucking send them out.

Give them one of those waves even. Just go, hey, yeah, that was a good gotcha, and then you take them. Do the old, like, I'll take the check, please. Like, point down. You know what I mean? Hand up, that was a good gotcha. And then you take them. Do the old, like, I'll take the check, please. Like, point down. You know what I mean? Hand up, point down. Here they are. No fucking shit.

So June 1975, the boys take a plea deal. Dana and Menzies take a plea deal. And they said basically what they found out was if they charged them as adults, they wouldn't have been able to probably get a conviction on them because what they did is when they got them in there they interrogated the 13 year old for more than nine hours before being turned over to juvenile authority so without any representation from a parent a lawyer or even a state appointed anything they sat a 13 year old down and did nine hours of interrogation

that's nuts that's over the limits yeah that's over the limit nowadays of what a judge will accept for an adult basically unless it's put them in a school that long yeah exactly that's nine hours is a long fucking time to interrogate they basically anything past about six seven hours nowadays they start to go all right like the will go, we got to get it now or else it ain't going to count anymore. Wrap it up. Yeah. Like if he starts cracking it four hours

and it takes another six hours to get the confession, that's a different, you know, to get it all out, that's different. But if they're still saying, no, I didn't do it nine hours in. Move along. You fucked up.

Yeah, you didn't get it. That's it. So that's what they're doing here. They say there's all of that, all the questioning. They said the the location of the questioning in the Davie police station may also have violated state procedures governing the handling of juveniles. Juvenile judges have interpreted the law to mean juveniles must be turned over to the Florida Division of Youth Services before any questioning can be done. They just ignored that. They ignored that completely.

So a psychologist said that she was extremely disappointed or extremely disappointed with Dana's decision to plead guilty. She said, I'm sure that he was not. I'm sure I'm not sure that he was mentally capable of making such a decision. He's 15 and fucked up in the head. Somebody with problems like that, like like that Dana had could not be responsible for what he was saying. She's saying he couldn't have, he shouldn't have been able to play.

So they asked him, Dana, the judge did, if he understood what was happening to him prior to accepting it. And he said he did. So, yeah, they said that his lawyer said, i knew the prosecution had a good case and dana would probably have been found guilty that's why i advised him to plead guilty to the manslaughter charge so the kids are sentenced to you young men children children may fuck off seven years in jail so they get seven years and that's going to be i guess till they're 18 they'll be in the youth facility and then they'll be put in adult jail after that stomped a baby to death stomped a baby

to death and then tried to stomp a second one to death right seven years now problem is they're released or at least dana williamson's released in january of 1980 so it doesn't even serve five three and change four ish and then menzies is released in august of that year because they wanted to keep him for a few more months to laugh at his name they were like you know we're having a real good it's good for camaraderie in here it's super good for camaraderie like everybody everybody can make fun of you and we like it you're a lot of fun at chow time it It's hilarious. So 1983, there's a lawsuit. The family of the victims here have a lawsuit against the Nova Youth Facility.

They said the home is at fault for letting the kids loose and letting them out. They said that based on their lawyer said based on all of their notes from psychologists, quote, they had been obsessed since childhood with killing and violence. What the center specialist did was no higher level than playing doctor. They were experimenting with these sick boys. They know what there's no other. There's no procedure of what to do with them. So they were like, maybe we'll try this. That's all it is.

They were doing their best, I think, here. Now, the center had since closed by that point. People who staffed this facility, they said, you know, basically those people said we didn't operate a maximum security prison. Like, this is not anything there. knew of the dangerous propensity of these boys for violent assaults upon children. And although they were notified on three separate occasions of the whereabouts of the two boys on the day of these brutal assaults upon the Wagner children, they made no effort to pick them up or otherwise prevent the perfectly foreseeable and altogether unforgivable tragedy which occurred. Well, they said, well, neither boy was in there for criminal things, so they had no right to go get them. That's not how it was. The one doctor said this was a well-run organization.

It was a treatment center. It had no bars. They said the responsibility lies in two hands, Dana Williamson's and Roland Menzies and no one else. They said, why should we be fucking blamed for that? So during this lawsuit, they are Williamson and Menzies are subpoenaed but neither of them respond by this time dana williamson is in ohio living with a wife and child and menzies is in broward county being held without bond on several auto theft charges he continued to be a piece of shit yep continued so um anyway the outcome of this the case had 18 months of postponements and two different appeals.

All sorts of shit like that. In the end, they found out that they judged that the Living and Learning Center was not liable for the crimes of the residents. And so that's where all the appeals went on. That's nuts. That's crazy. This is who we're dealing with now. That's who's standing in a ninja cowboy costume. Yes.

Guy who kicked a baby to death, basically, and had no fucking feeling about it, is now ninja mask, cowboy hat, gun to grandpa's head, telling a two-year-old to get on the fucking floor, where's the safe. Oh, God. And he might be in cahoots with Charles Panayan. Or Panayan. Panayan. We have no idea yet. And he might be in cahoots with Charles Pannigan. Or Pannigan. We have no idea yet. And his brother Rodney's outside.

Absolutely. So Pannigan knows Williamson. He knows both the brothers, Rodney and Dana, because he was good friends with them and even often visited Charlie Williamson, the father. After all of that, after the kids got out, everybody was adults, everybody got made up together there. What? The Williamson, yeah, the Williamson boys started talking to their dad again, and Charlie, yeah, it's all fine now. Thanks, Dad. Thanks a lot.

Oh, my God. How do you talk to that guy ever again? That's what I mean. So Panaghan had met Charlie Williamson approximately the time he met robert decker in the early 70s when his son was being a mess so panayan and charlie williamson were neighbors for a period of time and would do each other favors of you know can you help me with my project i'll help you with your shit williamson also asked um dana to help panayan on several occasions as well on On one occasion, which

occurred during the time Panty Ann was helping Robert Decker build his house, Charlie Williamson asked Dana to give Panty Ann a ride to the Decker house. So he'd been there before multiple times based on that. Charlie Williamson, the father, suffered a stroke in 1987, and then Panty Ann had visited him on a regular basis, and by that time, Rodney Williamson, the older brother, and his wife and two children were all living with Charlie Williamson. So everybody had reconciled by then. Everything was fine.

Living in Dad's house with my whole fucking family. Yep, living with my stroke dad that doesn't want me or never wanted anything to do with me with my whole family. Getting him back for those times right now. So on one of the visits of Charles Pannian to the Williamson house, which occurred about in late October of 1988, Dana asked Charles Pannian whether he knew anything about Robert Decker's involvement in drugs. He said, you know if that Robert Decker's involved in drugs or what? Panian answered that no, he didn't deal drugs. He doesn't know if Robert Decker ever deal drugs.

And while Panian was visiting Charlie Williamson on November 3rd, the night before all this happened, 1988, Dana kept insisting to him that he knew that Robert Decker was dealing drugs. He's like, come on, tell me what he's doing because I know he's dealing drugs. I know he's dealing drugs. Panty Ann kept saying he's not dealing drugs. I have no idea what you're talking about. He's a goddamn carpenter.

He's a carpenter. He owns his own company. If you think he's doing well, it carpenter he's a carpenter he owns his own company if you think he's doing well it's because he's a carpenter so i don't know he's building just go build something i guess the fuck you want from me so panty ann and dana went fishing together that evening november 3rd and again kept talking about it well are you sure you know i know he's doing something i know he's dealing some kind of drugs. Panian maintained he had no responsibility for any of this, obviously, he's going to keep saying, but they were fishing the night before this happened, and

then it happened, and then they're whispering to each other. This is very suspicious here. But he says he went outside. Panian said he just went outside to get the venison, and the Williamson brothers approached him out of nowhere. That's what he says.

He said they told him that they were going to rob Robert Decker. Charles Pannion said, don't rob him. What are you talking about? He said at that point, the Williamson's both pointed guns at him. So he had no choice. So Dana then told Charles that if he said anything or failed to follow his instructions, he said he'll, quote, signal the man in the bushes and then somebody will go to his house and kill his family. So this setup is you got me and my brother outside. We're going to go inside and rob these guys. But we have a network of Bushmen set up as well, where if we do a signal to them them then they'll hop up and then they know to where

they're dispatched to go murder your family they know like we've really set this up it's pretty good we've got signals we make the mafia look like just lazy bastards is what we're doing here this is pretty good the slide sign to the guy in the bushes and he's gonna go and he's he knows where they are too we have that all set up already. He's got a list. Don't worry about that. So, yeah, he said that's what would happen. So Charles Pannion then reentered the house. Dana came in a couple minutes later.

Pannion recognized the gun he was holding, that Williamson was holding, as his own gun. Charles was like, that's my gun. What the fuck? Apparently, he says that he must have stolen it out of the truck because he kept in the glove compartment of his truck so pan yan says that when dana came in the house he exactly was wearing what we told you before and uh ordered the three men to lie down on the floor handcuffed him like we said uh he took clyde decker's wallet apparently dana did dana took his wallet and asked Robert Decker for his wallet.

Robert Decker told him that his wallet was in the safe, and that's how the safe thing all – he said, take me to the floor safe. And he goes, that's where my wallet is. So Robert Decker told him that. They all moved into the bedroom, and that's when everybody was moved into the bedroom for the safe. At the time, though, Dana asked Pan Yan where Robert Decker put the drugs and the money. That's what he was whispering to him about in the living room. Panyan said he doesn't know anything about drugs or money. He's never fucking had any drugs or money.

And Panyan, he claims at that point, Williamson started beating him up. Dana started punching him and kicking him and telling him, telling me where the fucking money is. So he said, I don't know where the fucking money is. So he said, I don't know where the fucking money is. And that's when they noticed Robert Decker watching them. And, uh, then the,

you know, Dana went down to the bedroom with Robert and, tried to question Robert about the money. So at that point, this is where we left off. He's questioning them. He's in the bedroom. This is where now he hog ties Bob.

Oh, okay. Pulls the, you. This is where now he hog ties Bob. Oh, OK. Pulls the you know, he's got it all tied up. He's got Bob hog tied. Carl is laying next to his dad on the floor, the two year old. And he's telling him fucking stay there. Robert would say before that when he's hollered at, he won't move. I can't tell you how many times I told him to lay by me right here so he reties him now the

gunman here dana starts rummaging through the drawers and cupboards and all over the house looking for shit right while he's doing this robert manages to loosen the fucking ropes again and get free sure now dana discovers this again and he fucking takes him and now he hog ties him really tight and gets Robert all tied up tight. Okay. So at that point he asked Robert, where do you keep the money in drugs? So they find out that there is $2,000 in the cat in the house, which Clyde had brought with him when he moved in. He's the one selling drugs, a 76 year old. Robert said, I don't have any money or drugs.

So Clyde's cash and a bunch of other shit was taken. And at this point, Dana continues to rummage through the house. They can hear him knocking shit over, looking for shit. It's at this moment that Donna returns from her shift at the Hollywood Fashionwood fashion center inside the jc penny god damn it she pops in the only person in the living room is charles panian just sitting there in the recliner and dallas is on tv right so she's like hey charles what's going on where's robert she doesn't know anything's amiss here so he says panian goes he's in the bedroom like doesn't know anything's amiss here so he says panty and goes he's in the bedroom like doesn't know what else to say this is about 9 15 p.m um so donna fucking walks down to the master bedroom

hey robert what's going on blah blah blah it's at that point that the dana grabs her sees her coming grabs her ties her hands and drags her out into the hallway okay now donna lost a shoe while she's being dragged and she begins to cry during the struggle all right um now during this he starts to the dana starts to continue his search he leaves donna sitting there it's at this point where donna struggles and gets out of her fucking gets out of her bindings stumbles into the bedroom and she said is he gone where is he and Robert

Decker said no not at all he's still here and at that very moment Dana pops up behind Donna again he takes her drags her into another room now. Robert can hear Dana and Donna talking in another room. This is terrifying, obviously.

A little while later, you know, he's still hearing things, what's going on here. Pannyann now from the other angle, he sees the lights go on in the office after, after Williamson drags Donna out there. Panny and scenes sees the light go on in the office there. And then, um, about three or four minutes go by and then Dana Williamson exits the office and returns to the living room during all of this fucking, uh, during all of this fucking during all of this mess here apparently dana when she had first struggled and got out and then whatever or donna yeah don't i say david donna when she had first struggled and got out she had went to the kitchen and grabbed a butcher knife oh and went in there so she had a butcher knife on here that Dana Williamson didn't know about. So she drags him away.

Apparently, she took the butcher knife out and started trying to attack him with the butcher knife. That a girl. Okay, and this is now another hour has gone by. This has been all this rummaging. That a girl, but he gets the butcher knife away from her and begins stabbing her, just brutalizing her with this butcher knife. Stabbing her, stabbing her begins stabbing her just brutalizing her with the butcher knife stabbing her stabbing her stabbing her it's at this point where she gets away crawls into the office and locks herself in so he can't get in there she dials 9-1-1 at 10 13 p.m oh my god and says jesus christ this is fucking terrible.

She said, please, please, I need the police. I've been stabbed to death. Oh, shit, she knows. She's been stabbed horrible. And you can hear it in the 911 call. You can tell her lungs have been fucked. You can hear liquid in her breathing and things like that. She said, my husband, my baby, and then she died on the phone oh my god donna died with the phone in her hand okay

so the they don't know this though the guys robert and and clyde and carl they don't know any of this now they're this is another room they're tied up in the bedroom so um before all of this happened because that was 10 13 now before she's killed um 9 50 ish dana williamson comes into the bedroom with a legal sized sheet of white paper like you know 8 by 10 whatever 8 by 11 It has four straight lines drawn down it. Donna's signature is on one of these lines. Yeah. He sees that. Robert Decker does.

Gunman tells Robert to sign this paper. Okay. Robert signs the paper, but the guy went into Robert's wallet, looked at his driver's license, compared the signatures, and said, that's a bullshit signature. Do it fucking right. Do right do it again yes so he makes him do it again it's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast morbid we're your hosts i'm alina urquhart and i'm ash kelly

and our show is part true crime part spooky and part comedy the stories we cover are well researched he claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal or you love to hop in the way back machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and add free by joining wondery plus and the wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Then, he once he feels satisfied that he has all of the you know, all their signatures for whatever

reason that is, I guess to clean out their bank accounts later so he can copy them and do all that shit, he then well, he puts a pillow over Robert's head and shoots him twice in the head with a pillow over his head, which is crazy. Robert says right away he put the pillow on my head. I couldn't see anything, but I could feel the shot.

I didn't want no more. I pretended I was dead. He gets shot twice, pretends he's dead. Then Williamson moves over and shoots Clyde in the head. Let's shoot a 76-year-old man in the head. He's a big threat. Then he goes over and shoots the two-year-old in the head. Unbelievable.

Shoots all three of them in the fucking head. A two-year-old. For what? Baby. A fucking baby. This is insane. We will say all three of them survive wow all three of them survive with gunshot wounds to the head unbelievable that's amazing um just a little bit um Clyde physically recovered from the bullet to the face it shattered his false teeth

and the uh it hit his false teeth and deflected the slug into his cheekbone incredible he survived the son this is tough behind his right ear he still carries the bullet they can't they can't get the bullet out no by the time he was nine he still had a bullet lodged in his brain because they said it was in a bad place to operate so it's better just to keep it in there. Wow. That's fucking horrible, and we'll talk about Robert's problems after the shooting. But anyway, so he shoots everybody. Then Dana comes out and talks to Charles Panayan.

He hog-ties Panayan, apparently, and puts him on the living room floor. While he's tied up, Dana takes Pan Ann's wallet and looks through his wallet and tells him, quote, you know who I am and you know what I'm capable of doing. You know my reputation. He said that Panty Ann said the guy took all of his addresses that he had names and addresses like his little papers that had his like address book in it, family friends co-workers and he took all of them and dana told panty and that he would torture and kill members of his family to get to you if you

fucking tell on me and try to run away basically panty and said are you going to kill me what the fuck and uh dana said that no i'm just trying to get your attention i'm not going to kill you i'm just trying to let you know how serious i am that you can't fucking tell anybody about this so um jesus panty and then says describes apparently for multiple minutes in graphic detail how he would torture and kill panty ann's wife and daughter and son if he said anything like he told he told him all sorts of creative, weird shit that he would do to them. Yikes. Holy shit, man. So then Dana unties Panty Ann and sends him outside, goes, go talk to Rodney outside. Now, Rodney holds Panty Ann at gunpoint and makes him drive a short distance to Rodney's truck.

After he orders Panty Ann to pull over Rodney tells panty and if it was my decision, I would have killed you, but my brother likes you for some reason. So to let you know, and then reiterates the threats against

we will kill you and your family and you know, all that kind of shit. So it's fucking crazy. While Rodney Williamson and panty and we're having a little chit chat

there, Dana runs up to the truck without wearing the hat or mask. He had taken them off once he left. He had three guns in his possession. At that point, he told Rodney that something had gone terribly wrong, and he told Panty Ann, go home without, don't call the cops, just go home, get the fuck out of here.

Dana said, remember, kill your whole family, baby, kids, parents, you know, everybody. Fuck your grandmother in the face. You know how it goes. Okay, good to go. So Panty Ann didn't go directly home, though. He stopped at a shopping center and approached a security guard. Okay.

He asked the guard for a quarter to call his wife, but then it somehow got into the conversation of, hey, I need to call the police. And the security guard calls the police for him. And this happens 26 minutes after Donna's 911 call. This comes in. Wow. So after murdering her, he went in and just started going to work. Yeah. And then after that, Panaghan just, I guess, walked.

It was a mile and a half away so i don't know if he just drove around and decided when to fucking call the cops but he waited 26 minutes to do it okay so the police officer comes there and escorts him back to the decker house which i don't think is procedure i don't think that's procedure here um by the time they get back to the house other officers were responding to the 911 call. They didn't put the two together. Right. He called and said, I got a thing with a family and it's crazy.

And then Donna called separately, so they didn't put them together. So when this cop brings Panty Ann home, like, come on, boy, show me what you mean. Like he took a dog. Timmy's in the well. Take me to him. Come on, Lassie. Panty Ann was like, he ran all the way there. the well take me to him come on lassie pantyhams he ran all the way there when that happened and then there was already cops there for for donna's 911 call um they had to break down the office

door to find donna because she locked it and she was already dead in there um the two decker men and the boy were bleeding and unconscious in the bedroom it was fucking uh pretty bad here she had a lot of stab wounds whole fucking bunch of them he she pissed off dana somehow she you know what i mean she fighting back pissed him off i don't know what set off on him but she he went off on her he was angry at a woman absolutely yeah for dying on christmas how dare you die on christmas is that what he was screaming while it happened like this guy's got fucking problems man man. The police say they don't know what happened. They don't know how many people invaded the home.

They said attacker, attackers. We don't know, but they knew what house they were going into. We do know that, obviously. So Panty M is taken to the police station and questioned. He told investigators everything that occurred, but he said, I don't know who did it. I don't know who those guys are that broke into this house. So police say they think the robbery is an inside job based on Robert saying that the guys knew about the floor safe and all that kind of shit. They questioned Panaghan extensively and said that the case is far from a typical home invasion

because the robbers knew too much about the house. Now, Panty Ann, the press asked him, the news reporters said, do you have any comment? And he said, I've got nothing to say. So Robert Decker said he was lucky to be alive, lucky his son's alive. He said the reason we survived with Donna's last dying breath, she called 911. Yeah. It's true. Also also that gun evidently

shot softer i guess so a little bit softer man it's fucking it didn't bounce around as much or they just got very lucky the one got lodged in a weird spot the one ricocheted off the tooth and got caught in a cheekbone in a weird spot shocking he just got lucky getting shot twice in the head now the next year 1989 bob's life is completely different obviously yeah um he hasn't been able to work because he lost coordination in his right hand and foot because he has nerve damage from being shot in the fucking head his brain damage too um he um, he thought at first that the young Carl was starting, was imitating his grandfather cause Clyde is hard of hearing. Yeah. So he thought his son was imitating his grandfather, but turns out he's a hundred percent deaf in his right ear.

The son, they found out. Yeah. Um, bullet remains lodged, remain lodged in his brain. The surgeons believe it would do more damage than good to remove it um they said otherwise the boy seems fine other than a couple of weird things we'll talk about here they said he's still optimistic that the killer will be caught uh the the head detective said the lead the key thing is that we are not without leads the other thing is that we have uh bob and his father surviving the, and they'll make good witnesses. Great.

Now, Bob Decker says he's leaving Davie for good and heading to St. Lucie County. He's sold the house. He's done with it. He wants out. He said, hopefully, somebody knows something. Maybe the guy who did it has a wife and a kid. I know he's got to have a hell of a complex. He wanted to wipe out a whole household.

So he's playing amateur psychologist in 1989 and doing a decent job of it, too. Not bad. He sold the house. I see. I found the listing for whatever. 165,000 it sold for that year. So that's what he sold that house for. Now, the reason they have leads is because a tip comes in.

A guy named Winstonston marsden calls yeah 62 year 62 years old he saw the ads and um he called in and kept his name secret and said he he basically said you got to talk to pan again and there's dana williamson and put everybody's name out there so uh the police tried to track this guy down based on an anonymous phone call, and they finally track him down, and now he says that it became public. He feels fierce for his life.

Yeah, because those guys are psychotic. Yeah, he said, that's why I stay here with my blinds closed. I don't know why I won't step out my front door and have somebody blow me away. All this, and they gave him $1,000 for his tip so he can huddle in his home and fear for the rest of his life. Wow. So he seemed to have some information and nobody can figure out where he had his information, where it came from. It's very fucking strange, but he's definitely fearing for his life.

Not worth a thousand dollars. The detective lead detective detective, said, I had some very gruesome case to solve, and this person is the only one who seems to have some information. I think I would be remiss to not do everything I can. So he's like, I don't give a shit who comes forward with info. I'll fucking follow it. Enter Kojak.

The actual guy? Okay. Now, if you don't know a Kojak, they made new Kojaks, too. Kojak is a detective character. Baldhead. Stolz, right? Telly Stolz is the original. Baldhead, lollipop.

Hey, what's happening? 70s. He was so cool. It was a big TV movie that was so successful they turned it into a series, and it's the coolest, best detective ever. Now, there's a guy named Brian Kavanaugh who happens to be a prosecutor in this county, and this is his case to prosecute. But he doesn't have any suspects at this point. So he has nowhere else to turn after a year and a half goes by without all the leads that he wants. He asks his dad for help. His dad is retired Lieutenant Thomas Cavanaugh, a New York city homicide detective that Kojak is based on.

He is, he's the real Kojak. He is literally Kojak. It's based on him. It's a known thing who it's based on. It's based on a specific case that he solved. Okay. So we call it now.

Literally Kojak is trying to solve this case this is fucking insane so um he calls in his dad he said i said dad i have a little bit of a problem i wonder if you can help me kojak here is 78 years old at this point when he's called for help he comes out of retirement to work this case um and um he he works he you know he's questioning everybody and all this type of shit uh they also call him the velvet whip that's his uh that's his that's his station house nickname that the other guys call the velvet whip which sounds very sexual that sounds like a starbucks drink it does let me get a velvet whip and people are like velvet whip please that's a like, oh, damn.

A venting velvet whip, please. That's a dirty Starbucks drink right there. That sounds— It's red coffee with some cinnamon on the whipped cream. It hurts, but it's soft. Yeah. It's only served hot. We don't ice that one.

No, no, no. You can't ice a velvet whip. Come on. What kind of fucking shit show do you think we're running here? So they—Kojak sits down with Panaghan, because this is the guy who has some information, and he has five interrogation sessions with him. Really?

He said he hit him from all sides, and he came to the conclusion, based on five interrogation sessions and being Kojak, that Panaghan was not guilty of murder, but just bad timing. That's what he said. He goes, Pantyann wasn't in on it. He just happened to be there and then panicked and reacted poorly afterwards. So they end up basically telling Pantyann, look, here's the deal.

We think you're innocent. So here's what you're gonna do because you're not gonna get charged with murder you're gonna fucking testify in every goddamn way we want you to and then guess who's an innocent guy look at that no deal no nothing you're just innocent how's that sound so um either way they said that uh uh cavanaugh says that it's the kind of thing you see in the movies, this whole thing. So they got to do this. They have to get it in because this killing is crazy.

Now, the Kojak case, by the way, comes from the murders of two young women, Janice Wiley and Emily Hofert, in their Manhattan apartment on August 28th, 1963. 28th, 1963. There was hundreds of detectives working the case, and they eventually arrested a suspect named George Whitmore Jr., who was a 19-year-old kid with an IQ of 60. Jesus. He gave a 61-page confession. He gave more pages than his IQ. Yeah, sure did. More pages than points he's got. But in five years later, it turned out that that was a false confession and the guy didn't do shit. Unreal. So Kavanaugh is the guy who ended up finding the real killer, a guy named Richard Robles. So the Daily News printed, quote, In the sweaty, profane world of homicide detectives, stood out as a tall austere figure who never

cursed and used courtesy instead of muscle that sounds like a tagline for a fucking tv show doesn't it and it is there you go never so so doggone doggone so there you go telly savalis ends up playing him and uh there you go so um anyway uh what he did was Brian Kavanaugh, when he brought his dad in, he sat Charles Panaram down and he said, listen, this guy's the real Kojak. So he's going to figure this out. And the guy, he was like, oh, fuck, Kojak, like the TV show. That's the raw fuck. And that's how it was. And the Kojak here, real Kojak, said, I told him I'm always interested if the man was innocent.

So he's basically like, I'll listen to you if you're innocent. Yeah. So May 1990 is when Panagiam, they're going to drop the charges against him because they have like charges pending when they figure out what the fuck they're going to charge him with. charges pending when they figure out what the fuck they're going to charge him with they're going to drop the charges but they're going to arrest dana williamson and rodney and they're going to charge them with murder at this point okay so um yeah at this point before that all they had was an anonymous tip so uh pantyham though later on when they searched his truck they found keys to the handcuffs that were on everybody in the house oh what the fuck so they think that he drew they

they basically stole the gun they dropped they used his his uh car as a drop box is what they're saying there's a clean out spot i think he's involved in this by the way i'm not i'm not convinced he's not okay here's what i think i don't think he i don't think he got anything out of it i don't think he uh like, let's rob those people. I think they told him, go over there at fucking 9 o'clock, and then we're going to go over there and do this. That's what Williamson's told Panoram, and Panoram went along with it. Get over there with your venison and distract them, and we'll be over shortly thereafter. I think Panayan probably thought they were going to get robbed, and that was it.

I don't think he expected a two-year-old to be shot, probably. after i think panny panny ann probably thought they were going to get robbed and that was it i don't think he expected a two-year-old to be shot probably and i think that's yeah that's where this came from um so um they also a jailhouse snitched though said he met both williamson and panny ann in jail um he said that panny ann did know this is based on the inmate, that Williamson intended to rob the Decker house, but he didn't know it was happening that night. That's what it was. He goes, I knew they were going to do it. I just didn't know they were going to do it right then. So he said

that he thought that Panayian wasn't involved because of that. So it said basically in other words, this guy tells you that he shows up at the house and Panayian doesn't know he's going to show up and commit a robbery. And Panty Ann is there as a victim. And he said, yeah, the inmate said, yeah, he releases him because he knows him.

He put a gun to his head and said and says, I know your family and I can make them suffer. So keep your mouth shut. Kojak buys this as a story. He says, good enough. And whether he buys it or not uh he's going to make a much better witness being not charged with murder so this is one of those even if you don't believe it you go well tell you what you're going to get a free fucking pass but for that you're going to do every cocksucking thing we want you to do or we're going to charge you right so that's what

they end up doing here um so he's going to be a witness because i don't believe this fucking guy i just don't know something's up i because I don't believe this fucking guy. I just don't. Something's up. I don't think he got anything out of it. I think he was terrified and just thought, if I do nothing, then I can't screw anything up. He's been fishing with the guy. And he's been out with the guy.

They were fishing the night before. Right. He knows what he's capable of. That's what I mean. Even the guy said, you know what I'm capable of. You know me. So anyway, Panty and is freed with no charges. That's it.

Just free nothing. So he did spend 18 months in jail, though, before he told the truth, he said, because he was so scared. 18 months in jail worth of scared his lawyer because he knew that he did something. He knows he's culpable of something. Absolutely. That's why he got 18 months. his lawyer because he knew that he did something he knows he's culpable of something absolutely that's why he got 18 months and uh kojak's kid the prosecutor said this was real actual fear of two boogeymen the boogeymen were the williamson brothers so that's fair um he also um explained at trial when he testifies later on pan, that he came forward with this info after about three years all the way because he discovered that Rodney and Dana were the only two persons involved with the crime.

He said before that Panayian thought there was a number of other people involved in the crime and that those unidentified men were going to help carry out a threat. He thought there was like a whole. Yeah. He thought there was a whole network of people, he said. But then once he realized it's just these two fucking morons and no one's going to do anything, he said, then he decided to talk about it, which I guess makes sense. Now, Rodney Williamson, they get him in for a grand jury and tell him that he is the target of their investigation.

And he says, quote, they've been jerking my chain since April of last year. My brother has never admitted to me that he did the crime and I didn't help him plan the crime. And his lawyer says, quote, do not visit the sins of one brother against another. He's innocent, I tell you, innocent. 1992, the brothers are charged, both of them, finally, with all their charges.

The Williams are indicted on 17 counts each, by the way. Holy shit. Including extortion for trying to silence Panaghan by threatening his family. So there's even that. Panaghan then told Kojak here, the elder Kavanaughugh that he wanted to write a book about this this ordeal panian's too dumb to figure out what's going on here he's not writing a book i'm sorry what fucking book is he gonna write what color by numbers crayon what on the back of a fucking paper bag fascinating that we need to be uh riveted to

every word of what he's got to write well so fascinating from his point of view yeah he's just a moron i guess i don't know he wants to do that then he asked kojak for his autograph and told him he told kojak you got a friend for life here yeah gee great a scumbag yeah who was possibly involved in a murder and a shooting of a two-year-old and hangs out with people who kicked a fucking baby to death this is great yeah can't wait come out on the 4th of july i'll see you there we'll go fishing too can't wait yeah let me join you guys next time so um dana here now his trial comes up they're gonna be tried separately dana's is first. The opening here from the prosecutor, this is fucking heart-wrenching here because it's a few years later.

Now Carl's nine years old by the time this trial happens. And he says, quote, there's another witness you didn't hear from because he's a child and he's a baby. He's still a baby. He's just nine years old. He saw this piece of bathrobe around his mother's neck i submit to you ladies and gentlemen that i how that how i know this is because yvonne rutherford who was helping care for carl at this point came on the witness stand and told you among the uh among other things the worst thing i had to do was tell this little boy that his mama died

because he doesn't know because he was two when it happened. So he asked every once in a while about it. She said they go. Prosecutor said. And this is what he was doing. He's putting a gag around his toys mouth. And that's not right. He's reenacting shit.

He's doing his show and stuff. And he used his hand like a knife was in it and was stabbing at the doll. Oh, my God. like a knife was in it and was stabbing at the doll. Oh my god. What does this tell us? That he was witness to everything that happened that night, including his mother's location in the hallway. His mother losing

her life in the hallway that night, and Donna Decker fought for her life that night. So, this kid is reenacting the fucking murder of his mother on his dolls. This kid's gonna need serious therapy. Everybody watch Dexter?

That's exactly how Dexter got started. We cannot, this poor guy, I'm not saying this kid's a serial killer. I'm saying I really hope the adults get this kid help so he's not fucking tortured in his head. Because that's horrible. So, the state presents testimony from three different inmates who were incarcerated with Dana. These inmates testify regarding tons of shit that he bragged to everybody about. He's a bragger. He likes to tell everyone how tough he is, Dana.

Yeah. He knows where he's at and he knows he's got to get some sort of respect or he's going to get beat up. Yeah. Instead, he got these guys testifying against him. Yeah. That's a problem. Kind of the opposite problem. The inmates provide testimony about their conversations with him in which he recounted the details of the crimes he committed at the Decker house.

One inmate, Patrick O'Brien, he was also the Prisons Award winner for most Irish inmate that year. He won that in addition to his testimony. inmate that year he won that in addition to his testimony he testifies regarding uh dana's killing of the four-year-old child because he talks about this and he's but because um o'brien's testimony it's a long story but he says in his state in his testimony that he shared a cell with dana for approximately eight days during that time they discussed the crimes in which dana was charged apparently dana told o'brien that his victims had been shot and stabbed and that there was very little evidence against him. Several times during the discussions, Dana implicated his brother Rodney Williamson was also in on the crime, but eventually he admitted to being the gunman and stabbing Donna Decker himself. He also told O'Brien that with Rodney's help, he was still hunting the Deckers in order

to prevent them from testifying. Yes. He also bragged about kicking a four-year-old, and we'll talk about here. It gets worse. With respect to what caused Rodney and Appellant to commit this crime or Dana, I mean, Dana told Dana tells this O'Brien guy that he knew Robert Decker was a contractor and that Robert Decker had large sums of cash because he recently received the first payment to build several new houses.

So he's going to keep it in the house and cash rather than a bank where you would normally keep something like that. It was in a note and he put it in the bank, you idiot. Fuck, man. Dana then explained to this O'Brien guy that Panayan was unaware of his plan to rob Robert Decker, but he didn't think Panayan would turn him in because Panayan was scared of him. So he actually reiterates that he didn't know when it was coming or that it was coming, actually. He also, Dana tells O'Brien, that because Panaghan was so scared because of these threats, and these threats gave a lot of credence because he previously killed a four-year-old.

You know how he says he did it? With a baseball bat. This is the first time this has come out in 30 years, 25 years. He said he beat this kid with a baseball bat. Do you think that's how he did it probably a big stick maybe they came across a bat or something and said oh let's yeah i would say so he has no reason to lie about it now that's not more impressive than kicking one to death is it no is it is it more callous and less uh less personal i think yeah if i anything where you're not using a weapon is going to be

the most personal possible to to beat someone to death with your bare hands and you're fucking that's a lot that's a lot is it more oh god is it grosser to use a weapon to beat a four-year-old to death i think it might be well i mean i think it's grosser because you don't need a weapon for a four-year-old yeah it's a four-year-old so you could just you don't even i think that's i think not a lot necessary so that makes it more disgusting um i suppose yeah i mean uh we're talking we're really splitting hairs when we're talking about at the end of it there's a dead two uh dead four-year-old there's a dead four-year-old so yeah yeah really kind of apples and oranges wow man doesn't really matter so it's fucking bad they also uh present circumstantial evidence linking dana to the crime they present evidence demonstrating that dana owned a hat similar to the hat found following

the murder um they got that and that um evidence linking d Dana and his brother to the utility belt found in the back of Panaghan's truck. The utility belt had on it the keys to the handcuffs that were used to bind Robert and Carl Decker. Yeah. Okay. Now, Robert Decker says that he has no doubt he can identify the attacker by listening to his voice. So he talked a lot. I know exactly what his voice sounds like. He said, quote, I'll never forget it, is his quote in court.

Absolutely. That's it. So now they have Dana Williamson there, and they told Dana Williamson to read a script aloud of the intruder's words in court so Decker and the rest of the court could hear his voice. But after consulting with attorneys, he chose not to. He doesn't have to. Yeah, and I don't want to. I don't want don't want to he's like yeah that's pretty fucked up well even if he didn't

do it the guy could say yep that's the voice and it would be hugely powerful to the jury so that's you can't win in that situation nope do you think he's gonna sit up there and go oh fuck it's not him it's not him everybody you were he was right. That guy's right. Sorry. Never mind. Everybody go home now. Judge, can you bang your thingy there and call it a day because we got the wrong guy? He's a little more Southern what I heard. That ain't it. That ain't it, man.

So either way, now the hat is the only physical evidence that they really have. Straw cowboy hat. They believe that Donna Decker knocked it off the head of her attacker at the time and then he put it on later the police detective uh testified that at this point that the hat was um was williamson's williamson said it wasn't his hat relatives said it looked like a hat that dana williamson always wore then at trial, they had a big OJ moment where they're like, let him try on the hat. Let's see. He steps up in front of the jury and tries to put this ridiculous hat on, and it doesn't fit. Okay.

Now, my point is this. It doesn't say I can't find whether it's too big or too small. Right. There was a ninja hat underneath that. Thank you. If it's too big, that would probably be for a ninja hat underneath that thank you if it's too big that would probably be for a reason because he had a ninja suit on underneath and if it's too small then i mean how the fuck would he have gotten it over the ninja thing so either way the jury deliberates for eight hours over this because there's so many charges to go over, so there's a lot. And they find him guilty, Dana Williamson.

Oh, yes. Guilty of first-degree murder, three counts of attempted murder, and tons of armed robbery, burglary, extortion. You fucking name it. He is up for the death penalty here. Yeah. Dana is certainly up for the death penalty. The Deckers were very happy. Donna Decker's niece said, this is the happiest day of my life.

I'm very, very happy. He is just an animal. So I would say he is an animal, Dana Williamson. This guy's a fucking asshole. He's pretty bad. Sentencing comes around. There's a lot of aggravating factors, plenty. Number one, he's been previously convicted of another capital felony or of a felony involving the use or threat of violence to another person.

The capital felony was committed while Williamson was engaged or was an accomplice in the commission of an attempt to commit burglary, robbery, and kidnapping. And the capital felony was especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel. felony was especially heinous, atrocious or cruel. The judge rejects the aggravating circumstances that the murder was committed in cold, calculated and premeditated manner, saying that he didn't know who was in the fucking house at the time, so he couldn't have been that, as well as two statutory mental mitigating circumstances that he rejected as well. He did find evidence supporting a number of non-statutory mitigating factors and gave each factor some or little weight as much as he wanted.

The jury here comes in. Well, let's just see here. The jury comes in, says you, sir, may fuck off death penalty in the electric chair. Oh, Jesus. Electric chair. They vote 11 to 1. To Bundy him. To Bundy him. Yeah.

To Bundy him. Yes. The trial court says, yes, they do that. They sentence him to death plus 13 life sentences. Oh, what? That's the most I've ever heard. 13 life sentences. Just gave him life for every other fucking charge pretty much.

Banged him right out. That is. Dom only got 900 years. Wow. Death plus 13 life sentences is a shitload. Wow. Man, is that like we're getting you back for that dead four-year-old still? That's certainly bringing that up.

And you're getting no sympathy from a jury when you fucking stabbed a woman to death, shot a two-year-old for no fucking reason whatsoever. Didn't need to shoot the two-year-old. That's crazy. That's crazy. So next up is Rodney's trial. He's got a whole separate kind of trial, man. Rodney is claiming complete innocence.

Don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. All about my brother. He says, this is amazing. His lawyer says he's been many things in 40 years. A carny, a drifter, a would-be writer. Yeah. But he's not a murderer.

Tell you that much right now. That's one thing he's not. He ends up testifying on his own behalf. Oh, yeah. And it is a fucking party, man. It's like he has a three-hour cross-examination with Brian Kavanaugh, Kojak's son, where he basically tried to say, listen, man, that guy's lying, and then he threatened him,

and then all this shit added up to these people blaming me, and I didn't do a goddamn thing. It's threats. It's lies. It's innuendo. It's all bullshit. I'm not having it right there. And then the prosecutor, he and Kojak's kid are like yelling at each other at one point.

At one point, they got so hostile that the judge called in extra deputies to be in the courtroom in case they attacked each other while they were on the stand that's how bad it was here um he then cavanaugh the prosecutor reads from typewritten diary entries and letters written by by uh by this guy here by williamson by uh broadney and one of them is quote these are you're reading this guy's bad poetry in court, which is unbelievable. He says, quote, hares, they run with other hares and wolves. They run with their like killers run in packs and pairs and pairs and packs. They strike.

That's what he said. That's a really strange thing to fucking just write his poetry. Kavanaugh said, did you write this? Is this yours? Because it's in your journal. Rodney said, quote, I do not do poetry. I don't do that. Then he said, if I had, that sounds publishable and I would have made some money at it.

Okay. No, that's not publishable. What money are you going to make out of a fucking three, four line stupid hacky Jeffrey Dahmer type of this is something Ted Bundy would have wrote like scribbled in one of his college notebooks or some bullshit. This is asinine. It's that's wow. He did, though, admit to writing a story outline about the kidnapping, murder, and ripoff of some drug dealers. Oh. A scenario he said he thought of after reading some other novels. He's like, I'm just a hack.

I'm not a killer. I'm just real hacky, right? I just take other people's premises. I just take what other people do, and I'm doing it my way, which is. Yeah. I Frankenstein them all together and make a big old pile of ultron shit all mashed together take other people's work and do it worse and this is bad it's real bad so he wrote a all of that in the scenario the prosecutor noted it was very

similar the scenario in the story of what happened at the decker home dana williamson burst in wearing a ninja suit mask and cowboy hat uh tied up robert decker and the father and all that uh williamson a small pale man with a receding hairline this is how the press calls him this is great a small pale man with a receding hairline and uneven mustache he's also bad at shaving is what they said and he leaned forward in the witness stand keep in mind what is he doing right now intimidating uh he's being cross-examined yeah by kojak's son in a in a murder case yeah he is the accused murderer so he is aggressive as fuck on the stand this guy the prosecutor gives

him all of this shit tells him you did all this all this matches this story williamson leans forward and said are you trying to make an accusation yeah motherfucker what do you think we're all here for yes afraid so There are formal accusations written out. We did a grand jury. 18 people decided to accuse. There's so much accusation here. So much. It's not even funny.

Did he say that? Did he turn? He said. Yeah. He said, are you trying to make an accusation? And he said, yes, I am, is what Kavanaugh said. And Williamson said, you're taking it out of context. You're telling lies by telling half the truth cavanaugh said you felt it was significant enough to write it down in your

diary and then he asks williamson about another literary attempt he's just very prolific this williamson with his literary attempts this time it's an outline for a novel that he's had been writing before his arrest. Okay. Yeah. That's what I would think. There's going to be novels coming from these morons. The plot details a home invasion of a drug dealer's house.

The people in the house are tied up. Money is stolen and drugs left scattered about the house. So the dealer would be reluctant to tell police about the crime. Okay. Okay. Drugs left scattered about the house so the dealer would be reluctant to tell police about the crime. Okay. Okay. They said, doesn't that sound like fucking something? Like what you wish this was? Williamson refused to admit any similarities to that.

That doesn't sound like what happened at all. I don't know what you're talking about. That doesn't sound like anything. So then Kavanaugh said, that's where real life and storylines diverge is what that is. And Williamson then got angry and accused Kavanaugh of trying to browbeat him into cooperation during the police investigation. It's not even question answer at this point. They just get in an argument. Yeah.

Just a courtroom argument. And he said, Kavanaugh gets all mad and yells, and he says, tell me what else I did. He said, did I beat up your body? Did I take out a big rubber hose? So he's like, I didn't fucking force you into saying shit, you liar. And then Williams said, quote, you threatened my life and my freedom. I don't think anybody that's sane and speaks English could have taken it any other way. You were being accused of murder.

Yes, you fucking idiot. You're being accused. You're being called a bad person. All of these things are happening to you right now because there's dead people. You fucking dildo. So all of this happens, and then that's the the last testimony and we go to the jury so the jury goes in pretty much with that fresh in their head this huge exchange yeah apparently rodney williamson was like a real like well what do you think type of guy on the stand

like what are you making accusations so four hours of deliberations here jesus four hours they don't even have a cowboy hat for this guy they got nothing basically uh they come back uh it is he's guilty of first degree murder and 16 other felonies oh boy so again um so now they're both convicted and bob decker here robert he says i feel really happy that it's finally over with i'm tired of it yeah i don't blame him being fucking tired of it um panty ann was in court panty and tried to like talk to bob decker really and he said that they said all he would get all decker gave him was a cold hello he said hello to him but that's it panty ann was telling the press he wants to get together with decker to make things right what are you nuts you're not coming over how the yeah come over and watch dallas no

we tried this already and what happened we all ended up with bullets in our fucking head and my wife's dead go away i still haven't seen that episode you dick no and your venison was shit i'm not gonna lie it was tough it was tough i didn't care for it. So either way, sentencing comes around, and it is death penalty on the table here. Uh-oh. They come back. You, sir, may fuck off. Life sentence. No parole.

Okay. Life. Without parole. Yeah, but they didn't kill him because they said he didn't. He didn't pull the trigger. He was never even in the house, they said. Right. But even the witness in there said he was never in the house.

So it's real. I mean, yes, he's responsible, but death penalty responsible and go to jail forever responsible are a little bit different. There has to be for a jury. There has to be some stank on death penalty. It has to be something. Yeah. He never even fired a gun is difficult to give a death penalty on. You know, he didn't even see the people.

No. Now, the funny thing is Dana appeals his case, right? Yeah. He appeals his case. And it's so fucking funny because one of his original defense attorney team, a guy named Charlie Johnson, he's just out talking to the press about this guy. I don't know if once the case is over, once you're not the client, you can talk shit about him. A guy named Charlie Johnson. He's just out talking to the press about this guy. I don't know if once the case is over, once you're not the client, you can talk shit about him. I didn't know that was a law.

I thought it was all kind of. He said to the paper, quote, he's guilty of sin. I did all I could, but that guy is a piece of shit. Guilty of sin. He was saying that during the appeal. Is that right? Yeah, I think he's guilty of sin. I him and i didn't fucking he did it like a motherfucker so what the shit man so um the problem with this is he's got a good case on appeal because the

case against him was never really strong the only witness against him was pantyham pantyhand and that guy they're saying is he spent over a year in jail as a spa as a suspect on the crime and they're gonna cast a big cloud that they let him go just to testify because they wanted the williamson boys so bad they let this guy skate on it and shit like that so yeah um it's it's it's difficult dana williamson's obviously sitting on death row there. He wants to – this is when DNA is first becoming big here, and he wants to give – he wants that hat DNA tested. Okay. He said, let's test that hat for DNA to make sure my DNA is on it, and we'll see um so apparently there's they were searching all the death row cases at that point

for anything with dna in it that they could prove or disprove shit with they're like testing it out let's see what's going on here now a lot of the death row inmates didn't want dna testing four of the inmates refused the procedure yeah please don't do that yeah because it's going to be more exactly that's going to be more murders for me. They fucking know. Yeah. Think about how frightening that is. Yeah.

Who else did you kill, motherfucker? There's more. What did you do? Four? It was like four out of eight said no. That's too many. That is terrifying. Holy shit.

So they're saying if it comes back negative, it could help him a lot, obviously. But the problem is that they, when it comes to it, they say help him a lot, obviously. But the problem is that they, when it comes to it, they say, well, here we go. His attorney says the hat is absolutely critical. I think at some point along the line, you're going to have a court or a judge who realizes this isn't a death row case. Okay. Now, for some reason, it never, he never ends up, I don't think the TNA testing on the hat ever takes place or if it does it's inconclusive because we never get a decisive the hat said he did it or the hat said he wasn't there bullshit doesn't matter now I don't know how he would have if he had a mask on

first of all so the DNA I'm not sure that he's saying if it was my hat i would have had dna from it beforehand but do we know that really who the fuck knows either way dana is still on death row not dead yet still on death row he's been on death row for yeah 24 years 26 years he's been sitting on death row um his brother is life without his brother's still in there too from what i understand um don't really know what happened to Bob Decker I think Charlie Williamson died the rest of the Williamson's I'm not sure and I just really really hope that poor Carl is doing

okay yeah because fuck that's traumatic that's that's so it's so brutal too that this guy lost his mom and then he's like I'm gonna kill some kids mom yeah right in front of his mom he knows what that feels like and he took granted i guess he he tried to kill the kid too but yeah he likes inflicting pain on people he enjoys it yeah he fucking enjoys it man that's the thing

he goddamn likes it um now after the whole deal um kojak the real kojak kavanaugh senior he says quote the criminal justice system comes out smelling like a rose this was a beautiful case from beginning to end that's a very kojak way to put it though yeah this criminal justice system comes out smelling like a rose i think they must have really based kojak on him a lot. Yeah. I want to know if he has lollipops or not. I want to know if he's bald. No shit, right? And then his son said, quote, I'm a very fortunate son. Credence?

Come on. Yeah, come on. The problem that I see about this is, okay, here's my only issue with this. this is okay here's my only issue with this if you have detectives if the normal homicide detectives went in there and said hey even though it goes against evidence and logic we think panning was not involved we think you should let him go just no charges whatsoever and charge the other guys and flip him he would have probably said are you out of your fucking minds yeah he was there bob decker saw them whispering he's fucking in on it yeah but because his father and i'm not making an accusation i'm just saying logic of regular how human beings work because his father who is kojak yeah who is

so respected who can't possibly make a mistake because he tells him that he does it yeah so i don't know if that's good or not you know what i mean like who's to say though you know i mean there's i don't think we got a guy we got a guy convicted of it we got two that's what they that's what they looked at it like they looked at it like we're trading two for one here or we're trading the one for two and that makes sense but at the same time do you think that they thought that panty ann had no fucking knowledge or involvement that this was going to happen i'm sure they had a clue right they had come on something he's kojak for christ's sake that's what i mean yeah he knows and i think they they definitely try in my opinion i think they maybe tried to make it seem like he was less involved so his his testimony

would be worth more and uh a greater good type of thing yeah look we're getting a real bad guy off the streets two of them and at least we're getting two off the streets because if we don't then we're not getting any of them and nobody thought it was panty ann's idea to do this no one said oh it must have been his idea probably he was the mastermind here now uh also their house now yeah it's not on the market it's still occupied but i found a picture of it's a fucking nice house that they that he built a good one yeah it's a nice house like i said on over an acre right now it's worth 692 300 bucks he built a damn good one built a goddamn nice house it's and because it's on such a large property it's worth more than like it's one of the higher comps in the area because on such a large property and um yeah so there you

go that's davey florida my god and a just a crazy fucking case ninjas and yeah ninjas and straw hats and kids being kicked to death this is fucking insane insane this week. It's a lot, yeah. It's a lot, yeah. And that pantyhose, too, they treated him like he was falsely accused and let out on DNA or something. They treated him like he was exonerated, and it was like, what the fuck? Yeah.

You were still in a house whispering to a murderer. I don't like that. And certainly, you know more than you're saying. I'll put it at that i don't know that he that you know i mean i can't make an accusation i can certainly say i believe he knows a lot more than what he what he gave us yeah just based on the fact that you'd go hey if you if you put yourself in that situation yeah you know he's in there you hear gunshots he's shooting a child he murdered fucking don out in the hallway he stabbed her so he saw that you didn't think to try to help

you didn't think to fucking call to burst out of there go to a neighbor's house call the cops you didn't think any of that shit like that's i'm sorry but this guy trusts you obviously he's leaving you sitting there i don't know while he's going around trying to kill everybody maybe come up behind him and bash his fucking skull in with a statue you know what i mean give it a shot try he watched dallas and and pointed donna down the hallway to her death for there you go that's what i mean he could have been like even just yeah you know get out of here leave yeah get out of here call the cops get. Get out of here. Call the cops. Get out of here. Call the cops. Something. Like, I feel like there's, if I was him, even if I had nothing to do with it, I would never be able to sleep at night. I would, my fucking feel like there is child blood on my hands at all fucking times.

So either way, very disturbing. Davey, Florida. There you go. Well, it gets weirder and fucking weirder and weirder and weirder. Absolutely. If you like that show, tell the world about it and get on Apple Podcasts. Give us five stars

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There's new stuff up there. Coffee mugs to skateboards. You can't beat it. Get on there. Get that. In addition, though, tickets to live shows. Oh, boy. Regular live shows. Oh, boy. Regular live shows.

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Keep coming. And then probably December we're going to announce the New Year's, the whole 2023 tour, and put those on sale and everything. But you need to get October 27th is the virtual live show. Yes. Tickets available right now. Shut up and give me murder.com or moment.co slash small town murder is where you get your tickets to that. What is a virtual live show? What is it?

It's just like a live show. Except we set everything up like we're on a stage in a theater. Only instead of there an audience being there, there is a camera. And that camera is going to beam it out to everybody who is sitting in their houses and being the audience there instead. That's all it is. So it's a home live show. And it's fun shit. And we have so much fun.

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for seven days because watch it while you give kids candy there you go you fucking bought it so that shut up and give me murder.com is where you find all of that. Also, you want to definitely hook up with Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you're going to get everything, goddammit. You're going to get all of your bonus material there. So many bonus episodes. I'm telling you, you can binge just on the back catalog. It's like 150 episodes. Anybody $5 or a month, you're going to get all of those.

And then every other week, you're going to get two new episodes, one crime and sports and one small town murder. The crime and sports ones are very rarely about sports. They're always everybody. Everybody in Patreon likes all of the Patreon content. You don't have to be like a fan of one or the other. It's all kind of the same thing. And this week, what we're going to talk about is a team called the Danbury Trashers for crime and sports. It's a hockey team owned by a mafioso.

A mob guy bought his kid a hockey team. And guess what? They ran it like mob guys would run something. And then there's all sorts of they got in trouble and federal crime. And it's a lot of fun. Guess what? It was successful, too. That's crazy.

That's the other thing. Mob guys are so successful with business. They're so good at it. They make things work. That's what it is. And then for small town murder business. They're so good at it. They make things work. That's what it is. And then for Small Town Murder, we are going to do one of the biggies here. We're going to talk about the whole Heyman Lee, Adnan Syed serial phenomenon, that whole case. What happened to Heyman Lee?

Where were you on January 13th, 1999, everybody? Where were you? Where were you? Because we'll talk all about that and now that adnan has been released and we'll talk about what the theories are yeah and what our theories are because there's there's a few kind of standard set theories and then kind of some off you know kind of oddball ones we'll talk about them all for suspects yeah fringe theories maybe it was adnan maybe it was who the fuck knows we don't know but we will tell you what we know this week and we'll tell you what we think about it.

That is, where is that? That is Patreon. Patreon, yeah. That's right. I figured I'd let you do it, but then I'm like, let's both do it. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. That's right. Do that right now.

Anybody $5 or above. It's a beautiful thing. And you know what else you're going to get? A shout out. You're going to get a shout out where Jimmy is going to say your name and not even saying it connected to like a terrible murder or anything. He'll just say it and

fuck it up probably based on pronunciation but that's okay. Jimmy, I need those names. They feel good to me. Feed me with the names. Hit me with them now. This week's executive producers are Marissa Macaluso, Michelle Zabin, Annie King, and Harding and Catherine Clout. God damn it.

Thank you. I almost got it. There's only a few I couldn't get through. Wonderful, wonderful people. They're just wonderful, Jimmy. You were overcome with emotion. You were over-clemped. Other producers this week are Sal Amanda.

She says that Mike Carlo sucks farts, evidently. He's a bad person. Wow. Sucks farts, eh? I guess. That's a lot. Rear Admiral Nelson Steinschweiger, I think. Douglas C. Niedermeyer.

He's a sergeant of arms. Cody and Casey Ennis are celebrating their eighth anniversary. and Casey Ennis are celebrating their eighth anniversary, and she likes the show a lot, and she likes it when he mispronounces her name during intercourse. I don't know. Okay. I guess he calls her Cassie.

I don't know. Peyton Meadows, WWE legend, the Shockmaster, Abe Schmuckler, happy hour at the Alligator Festival in Luling, Louisiana. Valerie Collins, Sarah DeLeon is not having an easy life at the moment. Hang in there. It'll get better, I swear to Christ. We're with you. Supreme Court Justice Hiram Smales. No, that's not real.

Father of Judge Eliu Smales, evidently. Oh. Happy birthday, big dick daddy boss man fucking sir. That's from his wife, I guess? That's a lot. He makes her say some awful things. Frank the South African bird washer, Steve Schnell, Janice Hill, Maude Arthur, Billy Hoyle, Tucker Virtue. Very funny.

That is from a bonus episode. That's from a bonus episode. Corporal Carl Kirshner, Jesse Martin Vigueux, I think. Darian McClurg, Betsy Weeks, Peter Pissant Party Pants. Boy, oh boy. Kelly with no last name. Bethany Lawson, David Cervantes. Stephanie with no last name.

John Starlin, Josh Weintraub, I think. Lauren Herstek, Mike Mack, Joe Tugboat Kessling, Sylvia Perry, The Milkman OLC, Danny Shook, Ari Marie, Ari maybe, Haley Spivey, Nasha, Nasha, Nasha Horn, Nasha maybe, Amelia Williams, Meryl Cairo, Jimmy Take a Breath. I will for just one. I will for just one. Haley Kirstein, Annika Woodward, Gail Perry, Aaron with no last name, Connie Hanson, Rebecca Ann Callis, Patrick Reynolds, Matthew Hess, Ann Norvio, Molly Chapman, Jamaica Taylor, Catherine McIver, Ben Beauchert, I think, Tracy Judy, Jennifer Petri, or yeah, GFY. I guess that's go fuck yourself. Tori Goulet, Rebecca Pullman, Anush, oh boy, Nego Sheehan, Brendan McKay, Matthew Ross, Christina Ledford, Chris Livingston, Selena Davis, David Griffin, Monique Hoffman, Linda McKinney, Michaela Copanera, David O., Paul Henderson, Lauren Hasey, I think GCSO Deputy Corey Mattson. I don't know what that is. GC, something, it's county.

Could be anything. Garrison County. Who knows? Something county sheriff's office. That's what it is. That's how a sheriff's office. Michael McCallion. Scott Coligan. Caleb Marvin.

Amber Bach. Okay, probably not. Brianna Walquist. Tiffany Wilson. Robert with no last name. Rand Mitchie. Chrissy DiMattea. It's Italian is what it is.

Anthony Adams. Jim and Nicole Bagaya. Bagay. Patty with no last name. Caleb's son, Serena Lasso, Tennessee Soup. You do well with consonants. You're not good with vowels, I've noticed. That's your problem. It's more when the vowels are bunched up, you go, oh, fuck. I don't know what to do with that. What am I doing now? Miranda Allen, Christy Gant, Heather Hunt, Jalinda Walker, Michelle Guerra, Dylan dylan sponseller i think mackenzie anderson

jeff ramsey duane highfield irene s heather morgan tanya sanders jad duca tay lewis ashley keepers alexandra bennett preston jones daryl hunt tate peterson kelly with no last name andrew benton benton oh benito uh amanda evans lisa bingham tara charles heather with no last name devin higgins don styles uphole uh upholi beth crim jessica mcconville uh suiz with no last name josh angle christian yuri kelly cute uh karen row i think uh emily larson michael wetterland paris simmons alissa bartachovich i don't know bartoshevich Emily Larson, Michael Wetterland, Paris Simmons, Alyssa Bartosiewicz, Peter McMorris, Chris with no last name, Carmen Ortiz, Alex McDonald, Chelsea Hill Smorgs with no last name, Jared Brown, Dylan Self, Caroline Bracey, Ash with no last name, Tyra Brown, Anthony Baker, Haley with no last name. Brad Truhl, I think.

Deirdre Hart. Mack with no last name. Patrick McMillan. Patrick Millam. Melanie Jenkins. Antonio D'Onofrio. Joel Wheeler. Josh with no last name.

Kayla Flack. Cassie Mendoza. Logan with no last name. Robin. What is this? Robin. Oh, boy. Perry.

Micah Niemela. No, I apologize. Logan with no last name. Robin. What is this? Robin. Oh, boy. Perry. Micah. Micah Niemela. No, I apologize. Aaron with no last name. Stephanie Chantel. Don Reed. Glenn Slater. Amanda Price.

Ben Van Nort. Emily Trumbo. Warren and Mary Douglas. Stephen Ward. Shem the Wrench. Erica Jacobson. Havre Nenek. M and G.

Nope, that's just M-G. Emily Farrell. Farrell maybe. David Sutherland, Samantha Root, Elizabeth Lindhoff, Broken Tire, Camden Carter, Jennifer, I imagine that's from Boston. Chadwick Harper, Trepp and Gabbard, James. Connor Knapp, Lar Nicholas, Ginger Lee, Sarah Preffers, Juliet Vincent, Allie Weber, Jenny Bruce, Cheyenne Liddy, I think Lidy maybe, Shauna Hollingsworth, Destiny Wood, Stephen Vedura, Debbie Girl, Frank E. Frankie, Sarah Murphy, LaPacky, LaPacky with no last name, Casey Harak, Jim Pearson, Trent Johnson, Jamie Perry, James Pierce, Ivan Solis, Zoe Clark, Matt Nace, Brad Hubble, and all of our patrons.

You guys are amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much, everybody. Thank you for all that you do for us. Thank you for everything from social media to live shows to Patreon. Just telling people thank you so much for everything you do for us. Thank you all. If you you do for us if you want to find us on social media very easy to do that you can go to shut up and give me murder.com

there's links to all of that or just google search small town murder podcast host you can't miss us there uh what you do want to miss though is don't name your kid robert menzies that's a thing keep that out sidestep that one that said thank you so much for joining us. And until next week, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.