Small Town Murder - #348 - The Undercover Idiot - Cortez, Colorado

Episode Date: December 31, 2022

This week, in Cortez, Colorado, a strange man, who built himself an odd, octagonal house, on top of a hill, and may be into the local drug dealing scene. When his teenage friend gets in trouble for a relatively minor offense, this kid decides that the only way to get out of it was to go undercover, and help the police. This leads to wild, bloody scene, that leaves three people dead, and this young man, thinking he was acting as an undercover cop. But there are many unanswered questions, like how one of the people died, and who killed them. It's a mess!!Along the way, we find out that there is also desert in Colorado, that unless you get a badge, you definitely aren't a cop, and that it may be a bad idea to just assume you have the power to kill at will!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay and choo-choo. Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. The train is pulling away all aboard the murder train, pulling away from the station.

Choo-choo indeed. Let's do this. We have a wild episode for you, as always. We're going to the mountains here. Well, not episode for you as always we're going to go into the mountains here well not even really the mountains we're going to colorado and it's a place jimmy's familiar with so he can tell us how terrible it is it'll be a lot of fun rockies oh yeah quickly before we get to that i just want to say you definitely want to head over to shut up and give me murder.com where you get tickets for the live shows 2023. The first few are on sale right now through May, and then the rest will go on sale in a couple of weeks. And we have definitely Cleveland February 10th, St. Louis February 11th.

Get your tickets. Those are selling very, very fast, so you definitely want to get in there. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you get all your bonus stuff, and you get a ton. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get the whole back catalog of bonus stuff. There's a ton of it, and you get two. It's deep. It's a deep bench, and you get two new episodes every single other week, and you're going to get one Crime and Sports. I like how I did the single other week. Every other week, every single time.

You're going to get two new episodes, one Crime and Sports, one Small Town Murder. This week, we're only going to do one because it's christmas that's why we that's why we did that's the one time a year where we we take it a little light uh but it's a great one though we're gonna talk about our worst comedy gigs of all time that we've ever participated in and it's quite that's quite the tale let me tell you something and we're gonna talk about our favorite and least favorite christmas songs as. Hey. Throw that in there. And for crime and sports, it'll be a little surprise something, a little stocking stuffer. But never mind all that. We don't need any of that. We got to get right to the story because there's a lot of story here.

Let's get into this, I think, and let's sit back. Let's clear the lungs. I don't care where you are. I don't care if you're at home in the middle of a family party. That's right. Get right in grandma's face. Lean right down and scream. Shut up and give me murder.

Grandma, let's do it. When she recovers from her heart attack, you can say, you know what we're doing, grandma? We're going on a trip. Let's go. Let's do it. We're going all the way to Cortez, Colorado. Oh, Cortez is nice. Oh, you like Cortez.

Okay. I believe, I think. I don't know. It's in southwestern Colorado near Four Corners. Yeah. Are you thinking of the same place or are you thinking of like a nice mountain town? It's mountain-y as shit there still. Okay.

All right. Yeah, it's near Four Corners. And if you don't know, you think of Colorado, everybody just thinks it's like just Denver. This is seven hours from Denver. This is nowhere near there. This is nowhere near any city. This is like, what? It's got to be six hours to Phoenix.

It's got to be about the same to Albuquerque. It's in the middle of nowhere. Literal nowhere. Wolf Creek Pass. Yeah. There you go. Nowhere.'s near the Wolf Creek Pass, yeah. There you go, nowhere. Everybody familiar with Wolf Creek Pass? No, exactly, because it's the middle of goddamn nowhere.

Population here, 8,734 somehow. Is that right? Yeah, there's a few people there. Median household income here is about $39,141 a year, which is lower than the national average. Median home price, $227,500, also lower than the national average. So a little bit cheaper to live here. Quick little history of the town here. In 1866, it was built to provide housing for men working on the tunnels and irrigation ditches required to divert water out of the Dolores River and into the Montezuma Valley.

I don't know where either of those are. So there you go. This is a town that was built just to house workers who did insanely dangerous jobs. Imagine digging tunnels in 1886 and how dangerous that was. I can't even imagine what that was like. To divert water. So it's like it's aqueduct infrastructure. It's irrigation.

Yeah. So dangerous. It's very dangerous. All of this is dangerous. You could be taken away in the water. You could be, you know, all the dirt could collapse on you. There's so many ways to die here. And this town was made for these damned souls so

a lot of people actually stop here tourist wise because there's a lot of stuff around here the mesa verde national park monument valley four corners this is kind of in the middle of it all a lot of and a lot of people will take this route to get through uh colorado instead of taking that 40 and 19 or 29, I don't remember, whatever, 25, south to the 40. You go at a diagonal rather than that L shape. Yeah, yeah. It's longer. Somehow it's longer because you're going so slow. You're going slower.

I think it's windier, too, with that. So it's not just a straight shot here. A lot of prehistoric sites also there. A lot of different places. You could name a ton of them, but they're there. Trust me. In 1959, a U-2 made an emergency landing here. A bomber.

A bomber. Yeah. Well, I think those were reconnaissance. Those were the reconnaissance aircraft. U-2 planes? The U-2 planes flew like 70,000 feet in the air to take. Oh, shit. Yeah. They were reconnaissance planes. Wow. So they would fly above radar. aircraft two points the u-2 planes flew like 70 000 feet in the air to take oh yeah they were reconnaissance planes that so you they would fly above radar um they made an emergency landing

which was forced in the nighttime august 3rd 1959 at the cortez municipal airport which is a little airport which is amazing yeah there was. The flight originated from Laughlin Air Force Base in Texas, and the engine flamed out at 70,000 feet. Oh, my God. You don't want that to happen. So they glided through all this stuff, and they found the airport. It wasn't on the map, even. The pilot didn't even know it was there. They just found a lighted runway from the sky and were like, we're fucking aiming for that.

That looks good. It's lit lit so it's probably good and so they just landed there which is pretty wild i must say that's interesting it was like a fucking fbi you know i mean like something that's a a place you're not supposed to see oh well it was a military plane so i mean that would help but still yeah it could have been like an area 51 type of thing and they could have shot it down with them i think at that point it didn't matter you're're going to crash. You're coming from 70,000 feet.

We're going down there. We're going. Yeah. Either that or in the side of a mountain. Those are our options. Surprisingly, I had clearance. Really? Reviews of this town.

Here we go. Five stars. Growing up in Cortez, Colorado has been a great experience resulting in my permanent residency. Colorado has been a great experience resulting in my permanent residency. Oh, my longterm goals of higher education, obtaining a fruitful career, supporting my family in a safe town with great opportunities, schools,

rich culture, and clean environment are of great importance to me. I feel Cortez encompasses all of the qualities I am looking for. The sound, which they said that they wanted all of that, but all of those dreams have evaporated, so we're going to stay here. Yeah. Well, then the end of it, though, the only area I see improvement, I see need for improvement is job opportunities, maintaining business growth, and the lack of public housing.

So it's the best place on earth except for there's no jobs or places to live. Yeah, that sounds great. That's – otherwise it sounded like – There's 8,000 people. Yeah. Otherwise it sounded like a report to the mayor of like, tell us why you love your small town and we'll publish it in the newspaper. That's what it sounded like. Four stars.

I've lived here for 16 years. It's in a beautiful place. You can drive in one direction for half an hour and be in the desert, drive in another direction and be in the mountains. The town is small but has everything you would need day to day. Durango is 35 miles away and some people commute. Oh, Durango. Yeah, the thriving metropolis that that is. There isn't much well-paid employment in this area.

So here we go. There are many retirees here living out their John Denver dreams. Okay. All right. Jesus, three stars, and it's a long one. Wow. Here we go. Three stars.

I live here but plan to move soon. Okay, these are the people I want to hear from. What has driven you away? Extremely safe area. People are very nice and welcoming. Weather is okay. Biggest drawback is lack of things to do. Few doctors and even fewer good docs.

Horribly dirty hospital. Jesus, that doesn't sound good. Dirty hospital? Have we ever heard a review of a dirty hospital? How is a dirty hospital open? Close it. What do we do? Horribly.

Horribly dirty. Not just dirty, but it's horribly dirty hospital open? Close it. What do we do? Horribly. Horribly dirty. Not just dirty, but it's horribly dirty. Filthy. Just disgusting. Food chunks on the floor. On the walls. On the walls. Shit smeared.

Things written in feces. You know. Oh, my God. So, unprofessional police department and tourists. There are lots of hiking, biking, and camping areas, but not much else as far as entertainment. Colorado is an expensive state. It's expensive and expensive to live.

The people are ego-crazy jerks. Okay? I've been harassed twice in the last two weeks. If you are in a Cortez park and tie your dog's leash to your foot or a tree while you eat lunch, the cops here will threaten to arrest you. Apparently, the law says the leash must be in your hand at all times. This is very personal. I'm moving here because that cop was a dick about the leash.

That's what he's saying. I'm moving away. I need freedom to hold my dog how I want. If you ask to read the law, that will get you threatened with arrest for being rude. Guess rude is against the law here, too. It happened to me twice while at Denny Park in Cortez. If you are good at entertaining yourself and can live with poor health care, it's okay. But otherwise, don't move here.

Jesus Christ. My goodness. Okay. Jesus Christ. My goodness. Okay. One more. One star. I was transferred here and cannot wait to leave. It is the worst place I have ever lived and I've lived in 18 U.S. states. Absolutely nothing of value here. Poor school,

undereducated people, drinking beer is the main activity. No good restaurants, no culture, no shopping, nothing to do. Expensive groceries and gas, unreliable auto and home repairs. Medical care activity, no good restaurants, no culture, no shopping, nothing to do, expensive groceries and gas, unreliable auto and home repairs, medical care is a joke. Most people here think drinking beer and riding ATVs are the best way to spend their time. I mean, it's not a bad way to spend your time. It's a pretty good day.

There has to be something else. I get what they're saying. It's a solid day. It is a solid day, though. It's a good Saturday. Just a horrible place, very behind the times. 18 different states that person's lived yeah why are you on the run i think they're they transfer they're probably one of these companies they get they're probably open offices or some shit who knows or three months or

they're on the run from witness relocation we don't know uh things to do here we'll just do this very quick here is the cortez hot air balloon rally oh my god guess what they do race hot air balloons holy shit you got it all right moving on so there's really nothing else going on there yeah what do you do with hot air balloon it goes up yeah that's the end of it they say that you can at night you can see the balloon flames glow you may even be able to interact with the pilots and get up close with a hot air balloon oh i can talk to a hot air balloon pilot oh but still my fucking beating heart let me remember to bring my autograph book because i'm gonna need that if i don't get his autograph jimmy i'm not gonna be i'm you know i'll have a poster on my wall with no autograph.

How do you know if he's the pilot? I hope he wears a full astronaut uniform with the big helmet and everything because this is ridiculous. Never mind. Okay, so that's what's going on there. That said, let's talk about a murder. What do you say, Jimmy? Let's do that. Let's talk about it's actually more than one murder and it is just a wild day. Let's just about a murder. What do you say, Jimmy? Let's do that. Let's talk about it's actually more than one murder, and it is just a wild day.

Let's just say that here. I love how some of our stories are, you know, we try to go and tell varieties of stories. Sometimes it's, you know, young people killing each other. Sometimes it's like a husband and wife. Sometimes it's a, you know, we try to really mix it up. You know what I'm saying? That's the thing about murder. Yeah.

It's what I mean. So you can really mix it up. You know what I'm saying? That's the thing about murder. It touches everybody. It's what I mean. So you can really mix up the stories. This is just some panhandle, you know, some crazy shit went down in a trailer one night story. So let's get right into this and talk about some people. First of all, let's talk about 36-year-old. We're going to go back to 1982, number one here. 1982, January of 82. Oh, yeah.

Grow out your mustache, put on your Jordache, and let's get the fuck out there, baby. January. Starting over in 82. Starting over. Refreshing. Let's talk about a guy who's 36 years old. His name is Lawrence Rignal. That's his middle name, Rignal.

R-I-G-N-A-L, Rignal. That's his middle name, Rignal. R-I-G-N-A-L, Rignal. Maybe it's Rinald and G's silent. Come on, Jimmy. When you hear who these people are, there's no silent shit in these people's names. They'll pronounce every single one. Lawrence, his name is Larry. Larry doesn't have any silent letters going on here. Larry Rignal Robinson Jr., of course, as well.

And he goes by Big Larry. Everyone calls him Big Larry. Big Lar over here. Lawrence Rignall Robinson Jr. He's also got a son, Lawrence Rignall Robinson III. Of course he does. And they call him jimmy well larry that's right little larry because it's very creative i can see where the reviews were coming

from the people here are very creative that's big larry he's got a boy well he's little larry right yeah that's right even if his name ain't larry still little larry so right away we got big and little larry in the in the picture you may not believe this you may believe it i i think i'll believe a lot if you're gonna tell me tales of hillbillery from your background i'll believe it my first stepdad's brother-in-law's name was larry and then he had a junior and then they started calling him big larry stop wait he just gave me a migraine your first stepdad's brother in law's what now named larry and he had a son who named him he named him junior junior okay called him big larry and little larry oh god today james they're adults the kid is an adult they still call him little larry think about think about if we were telling a story yeah i know

and someone had a quote in it and they said my first stepdad's brother-in-law you would be before even me you would be like did he just say my first stepdad's brother-in-law? These fucking people. Before anything. So I have to point that out. Just to be fair. I love it so much. I had several of them.

My first stepdad's brother-in-law's cousin's stepdad. Well, his third stepdad. My first stepdad's brother-in-law's cousin's third stepdad. His name was Larry, right? And he had a boy, and they called him Little Larry. Back to the story. I wanted to preface it, because I can't just say I knew a guy. Yeah, I get it.

I get it. I knew a guy might have been up there. I need you to know that my hillbillory runs deep, too. Oh, I understand. I think the people have, they know, and it's good. And I like it. I'm a professional stepson, Jay. I know.

I like it. That's why when you said, I don't know if you're going to believe this, I was like, try me, Jimmy. We've been in a car for 15 hours at a time together. I know a lot. I'll believe it. I'll buy it. I'll bite. So Big Larry buy it. I'll buy it. So Big Larry's a character, let's say.

Yeah, they always are. He's got to be a character. Big and Little Larry, you know there's a character going on. He, okay, he got some land on a hill. High, according to the newspaper, quote, high on a hill overlooking juniper and sagebrush in a quiet rural area. Okay. Okay, outside cortez he builds his own house there is that right the the yeah that's not abnormal the thing he built is abnormal though he okay i don't i've never heard of this before. He built an octagonal house.

Eight sides. He built a fucking house with eight sides. Big UFC fan? Yeah. Who does that? I want to live in the octagon. I want to live in the octagon. Yeah, it doesn't even have walls. It's just cages.

It's just a cage. It's just a black-coated chain-link fence. When you drive by the highway, you can see everybody inside. It's really weird. When you drive by the highway, you can see everybody inside. It's really weird. So he built an octagonal house on top of a hill for some reason. So everybody can see what a goddamn weirdo he is.

I mean, that's fine. I like that it's different. But why is it? Why? I just want to know why is my main question. And this is the 80s. For what? The UFC had nothing to do with this. God, no.

Yeah. I don't understand this at all. So that's what he built. So you can tell right there he's a character. He's like, I'm building you a house. And they're like, oh, let's get some plans. Somebody drew him something and he went, what is that, four sides? I don't think so, pal.

Let me give you an idea I had once. I talked about this with my first stepdaddy. Now, this brother-in-law, hell of an architect. let me give you an idea i had once i talked about this with my first step daddy now this brother-in-law hell of an architect i bet he is this guy said take them four sides and my house is twice as good double it there you go with an octagonal house how do you build rooms that's what i mean how do you set up a grid? I don't know. That's the point.

This whole thing throws my sense of geometry and, like, I think physics we can put into it also. I don't understand anything of how this house works. As soon as I read octagonal house, I was like, we have to do this even if no one gets killed because I have to figure out what would cause an octagonal house. How does does it work yeah i thought maybe you'd know ever after i gotta know more i gotta know more yeah even if this is a story about a young boy who lawrence jr ended up going to college working his way through it and now he owns a chain of transmission shops nobody died we're talking about it. So Larry, okay. Well, around town, everybody knows Larry as a real nice guy, real nice feller. I mean, he's a little, you know, eclectic. He built himself an eight-sided house.

But outside of that, Larry's a good feller, right? He's a nice boy, nice guy. So he, on underground, though, Larry likes to dabble in some stuff. He's apparently into some drugs, into dabbling and dealing in drugs, which I don't know how else, where he's getting his money from to be putting up weird architectural experiments. I don't understand that. So maybe that would make sense.

A little Frank Lloyd Wright out there. make sense frank lloyd right out there he really is he's right out in the middle of nowhere overlooking the juniper so the sheriff's department launched an investigation into him possibly dealing in what they said were narcotics and dangerous drugs so they're launching a little investigation into him his son little larry yeah he lives with them as well in the octagonal house i this is worse than a than a trailer story right like normally we have like they're in a trailer this is an octagonal house which is almost like a trailer of the mind you know what i mean you're trapped in a trailer in your mind. So Little Larry lives with Big Larry, of course. Big Larry and Big Mama got divorced several years ago.

Oh, no. And Little Larry's been living with Big Larry. It's just the two of them. It's just the two of them. It's like a sitcom over here. It's like an 80s sitcom. They're burning mac and cheese. They don't know how to do anything right.

Yeah. Piles of laundry everywhere. So they have another guy who stays with them as well and has been there for about a year. Who's kind of living in the house. His name is Paul Stephen Fish. Regular like a fish. He's 19 years old. He's a local Cortez guy as well he is actually this is the odd thing

he's actually from a very well-to-do family in cortez yeah he's from like uh one of the one of the movers and shakers around there uh his father byron owns a construction company in cortez and um they do like even a lot of municipal construction they built the addition on the Montezuma County Justice Building complex and shit like that so they're like one of the main big shot contractors so yeah they have a lot of money essentially here now Paul I don't know why but Paul's been living with the Larry's for about a year since early 1981 so since he was 18 I don't understand if he doesn't get along with dad or what but yeah something's going on larry's friend he i i don't know if he's little larry's

friend or he knows big larry it's hard to tell what's going on around here i feel like age in a lot of our stories age has nothing to do with it 38 year old people meet 18 year olds and then their best friends and we're like, what happened? How did you – why are you together? But Big Larry is 36? Big Larry is 36. Little Larry is 17. And Paul hangs out there.

I don't know what the connection is. But it gets more clear as it goes because I think the connection could possibly be drug-related is what it is. I think they like to do drugs, everybody in this house. I don't know about little Larry, but at least big Larry and possibly Paul here. So Paul Fish also was arrested in early 1981. That might be why he's here also. His dad might have kicked him out or something like that. Could see it.

He was arrested on a forgery charge. Oh, so he's stealing dad's checks who knows we don't know what he's been doing but he he was uh got a personal recognizance bond after he agreed they let him out okay he's charged with forgery can't afford bail they let him out but only after he agrees to be an informant for a sergeant chafing this is this is not a real uh this isn't like a wire situation where there's like units and stuff they pick a kid up for forgery and they're like what do you know about drugs it's they're just looking for crime to happen so you're 19 that's where it's at yeah well they and ends up that he uh paul offers to help the sheriff take down Big Larry.

Oh. Yeah. Let's take down Big Larry because I know a guy who's got a lot of drugs and sells drugs. So Paul got busted for forgery and immediately was like, hey, there's a guy who's let me live in his house, his weird fucking strange shaped house for like a year. Yeah. I'll give him up just to get out from under this even though it's a forgery charge it's my first offense i'll probably get probation but rather than do any of that i'm just gonna tell on my friend who's been letting me live there for a

year nice guy nice guy paul last last name fish not the big one i'll get you the big i'll get you the big i'm a little fish that's the thing See, there's little Larry. I'm little fish. That's what they call me. My friends, everybody calls me little fish. I'll get you the big fish. So he ends up, the deal is he's going to help the sheriff get big Larry in return for forgery charges being dropped, plus what is called, quote, getaway money. So he can flee the area so big Larry's friends won't, you know, draw and quarter him apparently.

Is that how bad Big Larry is? I don't know if that's how. Well, later on, I feel like Big Larry has some clout. I feel like Big Larry has a little more clout than anybody thought really in town. So that's the deal, though. He's going to get away. I guess in a small town, you don't want to be the like open rat because the way it happens it's there's no way for him to deny that he set him up like at all like the way he's going to set him up so i feel like you can't then walk around a small town

and be with your head held up high you know you're gonna get beat up at the bar for doing shit like that what's getaway money for a cortez low-end fucking crook? $280. It's got to be, right? Yeah, that'll get you to the Mexican border, then you're on your own. I feel like that's what they said. They gave Donnie Brasco 500 bucks, and he was involved with the fucking mob. Yeah, this is way worse.

They can't be giving him $500. $280. I feel like that'll get you a night in a hotel, a couple meals, bus fare. We'll give you a gift card to the flying J. That's it. This is enough to get you to no galas. Have a good one. That's enough gas.

That's it. Bye. Bye. Enjoy. So the plan is he's supposed to set Big Larry up. This is not done in a professional way at all by the way uh the way this this is like a small town police force uh you know small county police force yeah doing like just a kind of shooting from the hip kind of a drug sting rather than like how they do it in a

bigger police force they have procedures of how they do this sort of thing and rules this is just real willy-nilly the plan is to have the sergeant uh the sergeant's gonna have paul fish introduce an undercover officer to big larry so that undercover officer can purchase a bunch of drugs you know increasingly higher denominations of money and then you know get this guy in a whole thing that's the sting operation paul's gonna be the trojan horse that brings him into the house so i mean it's an easy plan if the guy yeah but if the guy who lives with you for a year comes over and like oh this is my friend yeah he needs some shit you'd be like all right yeah here you go the guy my roommate brought him over he's got to be fine you'd imagine you're not gonna yeah but not sell him shit

that's worrisome for anybody involved because if yeah you're not you're not giving any sort of firewall in between him figuring it out that's obvious and that's what i mean that's the there's no normally there's some sort of obfuscation, whereas even when the bust comes, they'd cuff Paul too and haul everybody away and pretend. This is just like, oh, he's going to want to kill you. You're going to need getaway money. This is why you need getaway money when you're doing it like this. This is a smash and grab essentially. This is terrible.

Regular unleaded getaway money. Yeah. It's not super. Not super. This is leaded getaway money yeah it's not not super not super this is leaded getaway money so he's going to purchase that and that's that's the deal so the undercover officer bill mccash is his name the undercover officer mccash mccash yeah like it's like a mcdonald's game this summer join us for mccash pull tabs on all cups pull tabs on all cups medium or above and you get win either free win either burgers meals or a new corvette and they'll show that so mccash with your mccash so um that's the thing that's the thing. That's the this guy, McCash, this dipshit.

He tells Paul, listen, this could be dangerous now. You know that. Right. Which is fair. You got to tell the guy, hey, ahead of time, you got to know it's dangerous. But rather than saying this is how we'll protect you or we're going to we're going to wear a wire. So we know where you are or anything like that. He says, listen, now shit could get dangerous so if i go over there with you you know or any other time things might go bad and if things go bad uh there could be some shooting so you should

quote keep a gun handy what we're not giving you one but you know keep a gun handy at what point in a police sting do they tell the informant that you should probably get ready to blast some people that's not part of it they'll go no no no no we got that if it goes bad we're gonna bust in we'll do the blasting you don't kill can cover you don't work here so you can't we're not going to authorize you to hand out lethal judgments on people so that's not how that goes so you should keep a gun handy so this whole operation you can tell is just a shit show so he said okay and paul fish started carrying around a 22 pistol with him so he was like just in case sons of bitches now he thinks he's a real badass. He thinks he's Henry Hill over here now. So they're looking for me.

So they're introduced there. He ends up introducing this guy to Larry, Big Larry. And I guess some purchases are made, I guess. I guess. And on January 5th, 1982, Officer Jim Kendall, one of the people involved in this parade of fucking stupidity, he tells Paul Fish that he's really gassing him up, making him think he's part of the team. Remember on The Sopranos when Big Pussy was talking about fucking FBI terminology and acting like he was an agent agent going, well, you know, you got it. You don't have PC for that and blah, blah, blah. Like, what are you talking? Hey, calm down. Listen, you don't work here. You don't work here. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed

red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened.

And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager,

but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister

than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. That's how they're all acting, but they're telling him, Jim Kindle tells Paul at one point, quote, in a way, you're working for us. So he tells him, like, you're working, yeah, we're all in this together. You know, you're working for us.

He's just a forging teenager. He's a moron. He also, Fish has a little brother named Joseph Albert Fish. Stop. He does. Why would they do that to him? I don't know. That's so bad.

It's like the most famous ever. I know. Why would you do that? That's why I'm like really i read that off don't even go together it's no that's the other thing call him burt though don't do that burt fish leave the middle name away burt fish over here no they emphasized it and that's what they call him they could call him joe fish that's fine be joe jo Fish. That sounds like a mob guy. That's Joey Fishes. That's Joey Fishes from the border front in Brooklyn.

You know, he runs the whole thing there, Joey Fishes. He takes any seafood you eat on the eastern side of the Manhattan Island, it's from him. That's the way it works. He's got the whole east side. Sometimes they call him Joey Seafood, but Joey Fish is pretty good. They call him Joey Fishes over there. You know what I mean? Burt Fish?

No. You don't lean into the Albert part at all. They leaned in hard. How many people do you know? I know people that go by their middle names, but they're not all so shortened to something else. He really is embracing it. He's 17 years old, Burt Fish here.

So he's a little brother of Paul Fish, and he just kind of hangs around him. And he doesn't have a lot of involvement in anything. But he hangs around his brother a lot. I don't know if their house sucks or what, the Fish family home, but the Fish home. January 11th, the anemone. January 11th, 1982 comes around. 4.30 in the morning around, we'll call it well actually it's exactly 4 11 a.m so paul calls the uh calls the justice building switchboard in cortez at 4 11 a.m

and he requests some officers and an ambulance be sent to his location because, quote, there's been some shots fired and, another quote, some people killed. There's been some shots fired. Some shots fired, some people killed. We're going to need an AMBO and some officers. He called it in like he was calling in like, hey, yeah, is Kathy working? Yeah, put her on the line. Yeah, it's me. Yeah, we're out on the job right now, and there's been shots fired.

Officer Don, possibly, so you've got to get out of here. Send rescue. Send rescue. Yeah, some shots fired. Some people killed. Some people. Medics in rescue, ASAP. See you soon.

When I hear some people killed, that scares me because that feels like how many people that you don't even have a number. Some? You've got plural. Yeah. More than a dozen. What are we talking about? So he identifies himself to the dispatcher. Yeah, this is Paul Fish.

Of course it is. Paul Stephen Fish. Undercover officer Paul Fish. You know, officer Paul Fish here. I think I'm a sergeant now. Sergeant Paul Fish calling in. He gives them the telephone number where he is, but he doesn't know the address, even though he fucking lives there. He's lived there for a year.

He doesn't have a house number or county road designation. Nothing. He's got no which is bullshit. He knows where he is. So I don't understand that. The dispatcher described his state as very emotional. He said, quote, very emotionally disturbed, not to the point of being out of his mind, but a very sense of urgency in his voice. Very pleading. This is his first job-involved shooting.

He hasn't been out there in the street much. First officers are involved in whatever. It's tough for him. So after he calls the dispatcher, hangs up there and tries to call his parents. Because he is a rich kid. That's going to be his first response. When there's blood still seeping from people's bodies, he's like, Dad, help. That makes sense.

I need you, Daddy, please. I know he had a big fight, but he couldn't get a hold of them because it was four o'clock in the morning so right because they're not answering shit yeah the cops are more likely to answer at 4 a.m than your parents i would assume so then he called a friend of his there and he was like hey what's up yeah i'm waiting on the cops there's some people killed so that's an issue uh that this friend then he got a hold of paul's mom and dad somehow they said it's 82 but i just pictured them looking on the caller id going oh it's fucking paul again dude don't answer that and then his friend called they're like it's an unknown you better pick it up it might be important

you never know go back to vet harold it's paul it's paul never mind so he then called the dispatcher again at 4 17 so this started at 4 11 he's he's already talked to the dispatcher called his parents got no answer talked to his friend and then called the dispatcher back in six minutes so during this conversation he describes the house in which the you know the way the house where this all happened which is amazing because you'd think you wouldn't need an address because you'd be like we're that stupid house that's an octagon on the hill you know the only house on earth shaped like that because it's ridiculous yeah that one that's where we are so i'm at the dumb house uh and there's a lot of bodies it's there's some people are killed here

so some people wow so he tells the them that um officer brent powell is sent to the residence he arrives at 4 21 a.m four minutes so from yeah first call to officer arrived 10 minutes i guess that's good for the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere. The this officer enters the house and his description of Paul is as follows from his report. Quote, Paul had his fists doubled up at the time and was stooping over and up. He was breathing real hard, erratic, just. And then he said, indicating air whooshing in and out such as that. So he was like having kind of a panic attack. It seemed like walking around looking at the body. and then he said indicating air whooshing in and out such as that. So he was like having kind of a panic attack it seemed like,

walking around looking at the bodies. Fists on his knees kind of thing and he's breathing? Yeah, fists doubled up. I think his fists are doubled up. He's like bending down and standing back up again and trying to get his wind. I think he's having a hard time catching his breath and he's panicking. First killing and such. Yeah, some people are dead.

It's crazy. So he is directed. This officer says, well, where is everything? And he points to the bedroom. Paul does. He's like, down there. Here. Big Larry is in the bedroom.

Big Larry has been shot in the head. Turns out with a.22 pistol while he was sleeping. Oh, yeah, that's interesting. He's in his bed in sleeping position. Why would you? With a gunshot wound. And he has a very weak pulse at this point. Oh, that's not going to last long. Paul, Big Larry's going to end up succumbing to his injuries here.

uh succumbing to his injuries here so uh then after that ends up happening the paul's like okay um let me take you to this other bedroom as well because there's more and the cop's like there's fucking more okay this isn't good in this bedroom are two more bodies of very dead people. And the first body is little Larry. Little 17-year-old Larry is dead as well. So he's been killed. And the body of 17-year-old Bert Fish is also in the room. What the fuck? Shot and killed. And there's some discrepancy here over what the calibers and the actual weapons that were used to kill Bert.

Larry has multiple gunshot wounds, little Larry. We're talking shotgun and.22 pistol he's been hit with. Oh, he's riddled. Yeah. So he's been – it's either – we don't know what happened there. So that's good for the mystery, and we'll talk a little bit more about it. So the officer asked Paul, were you here when the shooting started? And he said, yes, this is right away. And this he hasn't been Mirandized, mind you, or anything like that.

This is, you know, just off the cuff. He says, Paul says, quote, Yes, Larry Robinson, Jr. Shot my brother bert i then shot larry robinson jr and ran into the other bedroom and shot larry robinson senior okay so he's claiming that little shot little little on little violence and then he came in settled the score and then figured once big larry heard what was going on he's going to come in so you better get him cut him off at the pass. That's the story.

But in an octagon-shaped house, those bullets don't carry. They just ricochet in circles. It's bad. And just, pew, pew, pew, they never stop. He didn't hear shit. He didn't hear a goddamn thing. So this is obviously quite the scene. They don't know how to take it and who to believe and shit like that.

He arrests Paul, the officer does, puts handcuffs on him you shot somebody here you just told me you shot a guy in his sleep so i'm gonna assume you're at least arresting you for that so places him in handcuffs paul requests can you can i call my parents and talk to him i need to talk to my father and they said no you can't talk to your father right now. He was told by the – they ended up calling from the police department because – I think because he's a respected guy and they don't want to piss him off probably. Next time the municipal building needs some work, they don't want the plumbing to be fucked up. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when the officer puts the cuffs on him, out of nowhere comes another man.

Comes down from – From the house down house yes comes down from upstairs he just walks in he's like the hell's going on here why is there cops what's going on paul oh shit all the larrys are dead but not all the larrys are dead because this man's name is lawrence hogan another larry how many larrys are there? At least three Larrys in this fucking story live in the same house. That's just... How do you even let that guy move in? You'd be like, no, you can't move in. Your name is Larry.

It's going to be too confusing. I'm sorry. We have a big and a little Larry. That's all we're doing. I don't know what else to kind of Larry. We can't do medium Larry. There's no medium Larry. Regular Larry, irregular Larry. None none of that we can't have

it so we can't call larry yeah what are you tall larry skinny larry nothing works here sorry we've invented you already sorry can't do it um so this is lawrence hogan he's 37 he's taken into questioning uh taking him for they slap the cuffs, too, because he's in the house. They're like, well, there's two alive people and three dead people. I'm arresting all the alive people and figuring it out later. So they take Larry III in there. There was a Larry III. That was the kid.

They take the third Larry. Jesus Christ. The third Larry they take in. Turns out he was sleeping the entire time he came down like while the handcuffs are being put on he's like what's going on like just eyes bleary rubbing the sleep out of his eyes we should all have octagon shaped houses it's so silent in there you can kill people with multiple caliber weapons and, you can buck shotgun rounds off and two people can sleep through it. That's amazing.

Anything ranging from.22 to shotgun, can't hear it. Can't fucking hear it. Now, that's not what the cops think happened, though, what Paul says the story is. They don't think that there was a gunfight and Larry slept through it on the same floor, Big Larry, and then he got shot in the head. Big Larry. And then he got shot in the head. Their theory is that Paul went down, shot Larry in the head to take care of him because he's the biggest threat, and then went to deal with little Larry. And that makes actually way more sense in terms of how this goes, as we'll talk about.

So Elder Larry shot with a.22 pistol while he slept, like we said. There was his son, though. Little Larry shot with a pistol and a shotgun, But they said there was a fierce struggle involved here. Based on markings on Paul, on markings on little Larry, there was obviously a struggle. So they're trying to figure out if maybe the theory is possible that maybe that he. OK, Paul went down, big larry in the head little larry heard what was going on grabbed his shotgun to investigate why there was a gunshot in his house paul wrestled him got it away from him you know shot him with the 22 and then wrestled the shotgun

out of his hand and then blasted him with the shotgun too. So that's the theory. But none of that explains how Burt Fish died. Right. That's the big thing here. So they said – There's Burt in it with his brother and – That's the other thing.

He says, I'm going to go kill Big Larry. We're going to go rob Big Larry, me and you. As soon as you hear the noise hold the gun on little larry that could have happened too and little larry got it away from him shot him and then maybe you know paul comes in shoots little larry gets the gun either way it's a reservoir dogs situation this is yeah this is a fucking disaster this is like this is a bad gangster movie where at the end everybody shoots each other it's not that reservoir dogs is bad because that's a good movie but there's also ones in bad movies.

Reservoir Dogs minus teeth. Yeah, this is a hillbilly Reservoir Dogs. Reservoir Hillbillies is what's going on here. Mountain Dogs. So they're going to go. The cops right now go, maybe Bert was an accident. Maybe somebody shot him on accident and he just died. Maybe that's what happened because we can't figure it out right now.

It doesn't matter because all three of those people are dead, though. Alternate fourth Larry, he is released and goes off on his way, but they're going to hang on to Paul. Now, at 4.26 p.m., an officer Krause arrived and transported Paul to the Montezuma County Jail. On the way to the jail, Officer Krause and Paul engaged in general conversation. During the conversation, Paul's like, listen, do me a favor, pal. You need to notify Sergeant Chafin because, quote, he was working on the case with me.

I'll put it all in my report. Is that good? Well, when we get to the jail, you just put me at a desk rather than a cell. I'll fill out my whole report and we can just clear this mess right up now. That's good. Call the union for me, too, because they're going to want to. Oh, my God. right off three bodies and one of them happens to be your brother it's he was working on the case with me so this officer

described uh paul as being nervous but not hysterical kind of like the other guy described him a little hyperventilating but outside of that he's fine. Paul and Officer Krause arrived at the jail at about 4.40 a.m. Paul was placed in a holding cell that didn't have any water or bathroom facilities, just a box. Yeah. Just placed in a box. He was denied access to water to prevent him from washing his hands until after they were tested for gunshot residue, which is standard. That's fine. Usually do that pretty quick, though.

You don't make somebody sit there and not let them pee while you go find the kit yeah where's that kit now shit god damn it the guy from the state brought it like what was that like five years ago i don't know where the hell we put it jesus christ never thought we needed i'm looking i'm gonna look in the other closet down the hall too maybe we'll get him one of them hamster bottles and he can just go up and, like, bite on it. I don't think you can wash your hands with one of them, right? No, probably not. Big ball.

You got to push the ball in and suck. That's going to be hard. You need the suction part. So he can't wash his hands like that. So he's placed in there. About 540 a.m., Officer Ronald Barker comes to the holding cell where Paul is, and Barker gets the swabbing from his hands and takes his clothes. So it took an hour to get the swab down there, but it is the middle of the night. Nobody was working probably.

I don't know who's on duty at that point. Then the officer here takes Paul to the hospital for the purpose of obtaining a blood sample so that an alcohol and drug screen can be obtained. I guess so he can't use that as saying he was high or whatever. Since he still has not been advised of his Miranda rights, by the way, at this point. He's been cuffed, brought to jail, swabbed, and medically examined without any Miranda rights being given. And we've established a warrant for his blood. Yes. No Miranda rights. So finally, at 6.15 for his blood. Yes. No Miranda rights. So

finally at 615, Officer Barker reads him his Miranda rights, which is insane. That's honestly insane that you wait that long to read him Miranda rights. Put the cuffs on him and fucking read him his Miranda rights. As soon as you see blood, you go

tell you right. Yeah. Anything you say, you know, what the fuck here this is crazy so he was they said that the officer says that paul was extremely calm and composed and was definitely not under the influence of drugs or alcohol that he could tell um he also indicated that paul's motor movements were unimpaired and even while he was walking on ice with his ankles and leg irons they said he was still you know had enough dexterity to pull everything off here so at about 7 30 a.m sergeant sergeant stan chafin comes in you know the guy who's working on him on the case there right his partner his partner and sheriff john glazner they interview paul and uh Paul. And Paul's taken into a secretary's office for interrogation.

Not an interrogation room, a secretary's office, being interrogated with pictures of her kids up there. That's nice. The room was located in the basement of the Justice Building. It's a secluded little room down there. It's like a little, you know, a shitty little office. That's how they should do all of these. That is disarming as fuck. I would say bring them down there it's like a little you know a shitty little office that's how they should do all of these that is disarming as fuck i would say bring them down there that's that's little guy laying next to a soccer ball yeah this is weird well he can grab a letter opener and stab you with it is the problem so that's a good point yeah they uh they also can have uh like there's

a story from the uh homicide book the david sim book, where he talks about where the cops don't want anything in the interrogation room at all. One time they had a phone book. This guy was talking about a sergeant had a phone book in there because they had to look up a number that this guy was saying to check an alibi from the last guy. And somebody had left the phone book over on the side of the room. So they did their next interrogation, whatever. And then when the next interrogation, that guy's case went to court, the defense attorney claimed that they beat him with a phone book to get him to give his confession. The cops didn't hear that being said in court because they're not allowed in court

because they were witnesses, so they're not allowed until after they testify. So when this guy went to testify, they said, can you describe what was in the room and he said nothing just a phone a phone book and the guy was to the jury like phone book look at that told you the cop was like the fuck are you talking about had no idea and they acquitted the guy so he's like bare room bare room nothing so this is not smart for this for a lot of different reasons so they they So they start talking to him before they start recording it on tape for some reason.

Like sometime in it, they're like, we should record this probably, shit, all right. They used both a primary and a backup machine to record the interview just in case. So they did that right. Now there's a conflict in the evidence about the contents of the pre-recording conversation between them, between him and the interrogating officers. Paul says that while being advised of his Miranda rights, he asked them if he needed an attorney and one or both of the officers said, no, you don't need an attorney.

Now, they're not supposed to say that. They're supposed to go. I mean, that's up to you. I don't know. I can't tell you what you need. That's your right to an attorney if you want one but i you know you don't say no no no this is a this is we'll sweep this right under the rug we're just gonna just take 10 minutes we just gotta account for the bodies and send you on your way yeah both cops denied that that ever

happened um but either way during the interview at some point the both officers told him that quote we need to know everything and we've got to have the truth for your protection. For your protection. They tried to act like you're on our team. So, you know, hey, we got to be able to protect you. You have to tell us the truth type of thing. Yeah. So they said.

We're covering up. Totally. We got to know. Yeah. Thin blue line, guys. You know, we're going to. You're on this side of it. Remember, that's how it works now.

Now you're over here. So we're going to cover this up. And that's what that's what Paul is thinking. He's like, oh, this is great. I'm on the team. And that's just as corrupt as I thought it was. Great. He's thrilled about it.

Fuck yeah. Training day. I'm above the law. I'm King Kong, bitch. Yeah, that's what he's doing. He's definitely having a training day moment here. But instead, they're just reeling him in to get him to like a fish, you know, to get him to just say all the shooting he did. And then that's it.

They don't fucking he's not on the team. No. So the interrogation does not contain all of the conversation between the defendants and the officers. That's what the court ends up finding later on the backup tape contains more recorded dialogue than the primary recording so at certain points they would stop the tape but the backup tape would still be going shit so i think they would probably stop the tape to act like they were talking to him like off the record hey listen now we got a blah blah blah and then they put it back on again because they because paul doesn't know there's a backup tape okay so

i think that's what they were doing which again you can't really do that that's not really seems a little crooked it's that's a little crooked so paul claims that he agreed to talk to the officers because he thought that he was working undercover for them. That's why he did this, he says. And he said that he was, quote, he thought that he was not suspected of anything except for self-defense. This is an officer-involved shooting, defending himself against two wild drug dealers. I don't understand what the problem is here. That's what he said. So he made tons of incriminating statements because he thought he was on the team.

He said that he entered the home. As soon as he walked in, he saw his younger brother, Bert, being attacked with a gun. Son of a bitch. And he just shot both. So they were shooting him, so he shot both of them. That's how it worked. Undiscriminately just firing. Just firing.

So he dispatched of the threat being Larry Jr. and then said, I guess I'll go kill Larry Sr. too, even though he's sleeping. He's going to be pissed when he wakes up. Yeah, he's going to be real mad when he walks out there and sees that. So he was not permitted to speak to his parents until after the interrogation was concluded, which he's 19. They don't have to let him speak. He's not a child. If he was 16, it would be different, but he's 19.

And his parents had arrived at the jail shortly after he was placed in the holding cell. They were told by the jail that they had to wait. So after the interrogation was completed, he was talked to by his mother on the phone. He talked to his mom on the phone. He again asked the sheriff and the sergeant whether he needed a lawyer, and they said, yes, you do. Yeah, you're under arrest for murder chief you're gonna need more than one probably so his parents retained counsel for him they uh they police also requested well you know if what you're saying is true you walked in there attacking your brother with a gun then yeah you're you're you're good to go why don't

you take a lie detector test and we'll make sure. And obviously this guy's Paul's attorney was like, you're not taking a lie detector test, stupid. That's crazy. So the next day he was being held for questioning still, still not charged yet. No charges had been filed. They said that they were awaiting the outcome of the autopsy before they decided on any charges. that they were awaiting the outcome of the autopsy before they decided on any charges. So they said this is the first multiple murders in recent memory in Cortez.

So it's shocking, they said. Now, there's been tons of murders we have. I have a list of them. But he said, here's a guy named Bob Gilpin, who is a neighbor of Big Larry. He said, it's a sad, sad thing. I've known Larry for six years. I never dreamed anything like this would happen. And they asked about drugs. And he said, I didn't know anything about drugs. Larry never said anything or did anything that would make me believe he used them. They said, what about his son? He said, oh, little Larry's a quote, a hell of a good boy.

I really liked him. He said, little Larry often rode into Cortez with this guy to go to school and always showed no sign of problems. Good kid. A waitress in a Cortez restaurant named Marilyn Nelson, she said that Paul, the previous Friday, had applied for a dishwashing job at her restaurant. And she said she couldn't believe that this could happen in such a small quiet town my god um meanwhile in 81 cindy bayette was shot and killed by her husband joseph he'd been drinking heavily and was arguing with a friend shot at the friend but the bullet went through his arm and struck her in the throat oh my god that was 81 he was charged with second degree murder johnny collins house killed alfred lang a fellow uh te Mountain Indian, by stabbing him with a knife in June 1981 in a bar fight.

Dale Smith shot and killed his ex-wife, Judy Labrandi, in a dispute over property in 1981. Colleen Barrett and Tony Sapansky were shot to death in their rented house. Sapansky was known to authorities as a drug dealer who'd made a series of deals with a motorcycle group in Farmington. Jesus. That's wonderful. Ten days earlier, the two had assaulted a man and stolen his truck at a bar. Oh, and also Richard Fisher, Fisher, Fish, in a fit of anger over his crying newborn son picked the infant up and threw him against a wall in january at the same time this was going on oh my god this is less

shocking than that i'm sorry our case is less shocking than somebody spiking their infant against the wall here into the wall so that's what's happened in just the last year in this town so it's not shocking this town is a mess so what will the charges be that's what's happened in just the last year in this town. So it's not shocking. This town is a mess. So what will the charges be? That's the thing. What exactly are they going to be? He's going to be charged with murder, as we find out. He's going to plead not guilty to the charges.

He enters not guilty pleas on two counts of first degree murder. First degree. The crazy part is he's charged with those things. He pleads not guilty. Two hours later, two hours later, the judge, Judge Willard Rusk, calls everybody back into the courtroom. I've never heard of this before. And said he decided to reduce it. He felt bad.

He thought about it. You know, I got up. I was kind of grumpy. But I had a pastrami sandwich at lunch that gave me a better perspective on the world i'm gonna lower legal brought me a snickers i gotta say i am just i feel so good i felt like i was real like before but now i'm just happy you know it's like the commercial let goddamn things work i'll tell you what anyway um i'm gonna lower it to second degree murder because i felt bad. Two hours later. So they asked the district attorney about it and he said the judge just changed his mind. His reasons were that he did not think there was probable cause to bind him over for first degree murder count in the death of the son after he thought about it.

So no charges in the death of his brother. The cops are calling it an accident. An accident. Okay. I don't like illogical things so is it an accident or is what paul is saying true yeah like or did one of the larry's shoot burt in the combat and so that's what happened because they they don't think paul killed his brother on purpose and if they say the the Larrys did it, then it actually looks like self-defense or brother defense that he's helping his brother.

So accident is the only thing that the prosecution can say that doesn't either back up his story or directly contradict yours. But accident's the least likely. I can't imagine a scenario where that's an accident. Yeah. But accidents the least likely. I can't imagine a scenario where that's an accident. In a scenario where both of those – both the Larrys are murdered premeditated, whichever way. Yeah.

Cold-bloodedly. In the event that your brother dies too, whether accident or not, you get charged with that body also. Usually, yes. That's the thing. Because this is the prosecution the prosecution's theory of the case is that the the the fish brothers went over there to rob the uh larry's of drugs and money got it and it got out of control so they went over there for a home invasion robbery even though paul lived there they went over there for a home invasion robbery, even though Paul lived there, they went over there for a robbery to do this, then it would be in commission of that robbery.

Somebody got killed. Yeah, that all goes on Paul. But here they're going, this makes no, it logically doesn't make sense to charge him for murder if it's an accident. Because if it's an, they're saying that he was just standing off to the side and must have just got hit in the crossfire. We're being magnanimous and not charging you with that murder. That's what we are. We're being real nice guys here. So, yeah, he maintained.

Paul maintains his innocence here. Maintains the killings came out because the Robinsons had learned about his involvement with the sheriff. So they were going to go after him, which is possible. It's a small town. You could definitely learn that he brought an undercover officer over. He said they killed his brother, and he shot back in self-defense. That's the story. So it goes to the jury with that's it.

It's either you believe one side or you believe the other. And the jury does not believe paul and he is convicted guilty of two counts of second degree murder okay found guilty uh the judge here this member this judge is a character he changes his mind he can go hold on a minute now a sentence i know i sent you to the death penalty but i'm gonna say five years now i just feel bad i don't know what it is i was i was grumpy again i didn't have my coffee that morning i was just move boy something terrible the hard work of the jury but i'm gonna i'm gonna do some some extra shit i'm gonna put yeah i'm gonna put some extra shit on it put a little mustard and mayo on top

of that bad boy i'm having a real good day i want to have some fun with this it's a good time he says you sir may fuck off uh two consecutive terms of 12 years 12 years each term so 24 years incredibly low yeah 24 years in prison is what he gets here so he is sentenced then. Right away he's denied bail pending appeal, which in a murder case, two counts of murder that you've been convicted and sentenced on, they usually don't let you out pending appeal. That's if you have like a white collar crime or something not dangerous that's, you know, no one's life is in danger. Or in another country. Yeah.

Or in another country. Yeah. Or in another country. The court does grant a motion by the defense to delay sending Paul to the penitentiary until the defense can ask the court of appeals to set a bond because the defense attorney indicated threats have already been made against Paul. Should he be sent to the penitentiary? Big Larry is doing some shit. Big Larry's got some. Yeah, he's got friends that'll stab you in jail because you killed him. He's not just, you know, he's selling drug. Big Larry, I feel like has a big Larry's like a biker gang or something.

Not that he is. But I mean, like, that seems like the vibe I'm getting off of Big Larry here. a big Larry here. Somebody being called Big Anything is the rural guy name of being called Fat

in Italian mob. Yeah, exactly. Fat, don't fuck with Fat Tony. So, that's what they're going to do. He ends up being sent to jail here, sent to prison,

but in 1983, there's an appeal of the case claiming that the prosecution suppressed evidence that would have helped Fish and planted other evidence on him and went out of their way to damage his story because they were embarrassed by his involvement with the sheriff, which is logical. They said that they filed a motion to suppress two oral statements that he made. OK, they said in one of them got suppressed. Okay. They said the second question here.

Okay. Yeah. In the ruling, the judge said the officers here neatly foreclosed the possibility of the defendant talking to an attorney by their answer to his question of his need for an attorney. The fact that the defendant did not demand an attorney does not convince this court that he was not exercising his right. So they were saying the evidence is in direct conflict. The trial court found that or this court, the appeals court found that Paul asked the interrogating officers whether he needed an attorney and they assured him that they did

not. Citing several cases where cops did the same thing and it was overturned and there's like people versus cerizo people versus trauber people versus richard people versus harris there's a lot of different cases here uh also the court found that it clearly appears that the defendant believed he was working for the sheriff yeah in light of the totality of the circumstances including the working relationship between the investigators, investigating officers and the defendant, the defendant's question was sufficient to put the officers on notice that the defendant intended to exercise his right to counsel and his right against self-incrimination. All questioning should have ceased until the defendant was given a reasonable opportunity to talk with his attorney. The record establishes that the defendant again asked the officers if he needed a lawyer

after the interrogation concluded. At that time, they said he did. So they're saying, yeah, they definitely played with his emotions basically there. So the decision was that they end up saying that they should have suppressed the second one as well, the second statement, which means there has to be a retrial now. They overturn it. There's going to be a retrial, and they can't use any of his statements now. Uh-oh.

So now it's a retrial with no statements. Uh-huh. So that's not good. So the state appeals the appeal. Okay. They request a decision from the court as to whether the statement may be used to impeach him if he takes the stand at trial and the the appeals court said we declined to do so the a question of whether the statement may be used for impeachment was not presented to the trial court in its

decision so they said you can't piggyback issues not encompassed by the rule to obtain pretrial appellate decisions on evidentiary issues obviously jesus christ we're not stupid we knew that so they said the order of the district court suppressing this uh defendant statement is affirmed fuck off and from what i found they never refiled charges what how can you you don't have his statements the whole thing's a fucking mess it's all tainted it's all they botched the shit out of it they made him even they made him think he was still working there even while he's in the interrogation room they did a terrible job and then if you got no this is even if you got into the whole when did you mirandize him thing on top of that is like jesus christ they waited two hours after they found him you mirandize him thing on top of that is like jesus christ they waited

two hours after they found him to mirandize him that's insane so the whole thing's a mess and they never charge no larry's and no no bert no larry's no bert and no justice no paul stephen fish i found him he's still in colorado he's in his 60s now um and he grand junction colorado is what i found um oh boy i don't know I looked at all of his addresses, though. Past 85. I didn't see any that were jail. They were all houses, apartments. And so he's a son of a bitch.

Never went to prison for it. It looks like outside of the initial sentence. So there you go. There is a small town murder express. Just a tale of holiday warmth. And that's what we like to give you here. Ho, ho, ho ho coming down the chimney coming down the chimney with a shotgun and a 22 pistol bitches let's do it

they're in colorado it might not be santa in the chimney it couldn't yeah it might be methi santa it's different he's got patches in his beard patches taken out so uh there you go if you like that show tell the world about it get on whatever app you're on and give us five stars say something nice it's not for our egos but it really does help drive the show up the charts so it's a great way to help the show and most of all tell everyone you know post on social media word of mouth is the best way to spread everything just like holiday christmas cheer baby that's's right. Spread it around. Do all of that. Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com.

Get your tickets to live shows for 2023. February 10th is Cleveland. That's our first show of the season of the year. Get those tickets. They're going very fast, so please jump on those. They make great gifts, I'll tell you that. They do. And also, St. Louis the next night on February 11th is just about sold sold out so get your asses in there if you want anything uh do that that's then shut up and

give me murder.com patreon.com slash crime and sports anybody five dollars or above you get the whole back catalog over 150 episodes new episodes every other week one crime and sports one small town murder what do you have access to fucking all of it that's right god damn it get in there this week a very special one it's only one because it's a you know just christmas and we're busy but we're gonna do worst comedy gigs we've ever been a part of and tell you all about how terrible they are and discuss our favorite and least favorite christmas songs that have ever existed get that patreon.com slash crime and sports plus you get a shout out at the end of the show follow us on social media

at small town murder on instagram at small town of the show. Follow us on social media, at Small Town Murder, on Instagram, at Small Town Pod, on Facebook, at Murder Small, on Twitter. There it is. Follow us. Our shit's in the links on shutupandgivememurder.com. See you next time.

And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with W Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime,

part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar.

Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.