Small Town Murder - #349 - Blood Icicles - Oakley, Utah

Episode Date: January 5, 2023

This week, in Oakley, Utah, a large family takes the perfect holiday vacation of a lifetime, in a beautiful cabin, in the snowy mountains. This all falls apart when two terrible people turn the whole place into a smoldering bloodbath. The carnage, and cruelty is incredibly nasty, with one monstrous act after another, but the story of survival of the one of the family members is absolutely amazing, and barely even believable. Have you ever heard of a bloody man, snowmobiling with no shoes, in negative 20 degree weather? You will after you hear this! Along the way, we find out that skiing is an expensive lifestyle, that some people could possibly be made of actual garbage, and that blood can make an icicle!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Oakley, Utah, a tranquil family vacation in the mountains turns into an absolute bloodbath while one person heroically escapes the horrible scene. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today. We have an absolutely incredibly crazy episode today. We've had stories of some of a person, you know, surviving a terrible scene and getting away from it like Baraboo and stuff. We've never had anybody get away from a scene like this before in the history of our show.

And there's dead people but the one of the people it is a woman just took a 45 to the chest this is jimmy it's this is like that was nothing that was a fantasy camp compared to what happened here and that's saying something hot cocoa waiting for an ambulance and some yeah no that wasn't good either but this is just insane we will get to that quickly before we do, though. You want to definitely head over to shutupandgivememurder.com today. Get your tickets for the 2023 live tour for Small Town Murder. Oh, we are going all over the country.

We cannot wait. All the shows through May are on sale right now. The rest of them will be on sale in a couple weeks. Shows are selling out. Portland's sold out. Seattle's almost sold out. St. Portland's sold out. Seattle's almost sold out. St. Louis almost sold out. Get those tickets.

February 10th is opening night of the tour in Cleveland. Let's go. Get your tickets there. Those are selling very fast, too, so get them now or they're going to be gone. And St. Louis, if you don't get them right now, you definitely aren't going to get them because that's the next night on the 11th. That's crazy. Get in there.

I'm telling you right now, oh, we're going to have so much fun. If you haven't been to a live show, you need to go to a live show. Trust us. Good stuff there. I'm telling you right now. Oh, we're going to have so much fun. If you haven't been to a live show, you need to go to a live show. Trust us. Good stuff there. Patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of the bonus material. Oh, my goodness. Anybody, $5 a month or above, you get access to every bonus episode we put out. There's a huge back catalog of bonus stuff you're going to get to binge on.

And then every other week, you are going to get two new episodes. One Crime and Sports, one Small Town Murder, and you get it all. This week, what you're going to get is, for Crime and Sports, we're going to talk about when players attack. And it's when players attack fans.

When they've had enough and they go into the stands and a professional athlete in the height of their physical prowess attacks a 50-year-old man who's sitting there with a hot dog. And that's not a good scene. We're going to talk about those. And then for small-town murder, Nazis on drugs. All right. What the hell made Germany freak out and do all this crazy shit?

Well, a lot of it was drug induced or at least helped. A lot of it was a drug euphoria where they were like, everything's going to be fine because Hitler was getting speedballs. I shit you not. We'll talk all about it. There's a book that has all of his doctor's personal notes and everything like that on what he gave everybody. It's insane. Patreon dot com slash crime and sports is where you get all of that. And you get a shout out at the end of the show where Jimmy will certainly fuck your name up while he really wants to get it right.

So that said, time for the disclaimer. This is a comedy show. We are comedians. The show actually remarkably everything is true. You'd hear it and go, well, some of that had to be made up if they're comedians. No, everything is 100% true. But there are jokes that get made because funny, crazy things happen around murders. When someone decides, I think I'm going to do a crazy murder and get away with it, right

there, that's a funny thought because no, that's a stupid thing to think. So we're going to make fun of that sort of thing. Yeah, we have to. We have to do it. But we're in something weeks and that still hasn't happened. Still hasn't happened. But what we don't do, what we go out of our way not to do is we do not make fun of the victims or the victims families why james because we're assholes but but we're not scumbags that's how that works so if that sounds good to you man do we have a wild episode for you

you think true crime and comedy never ever ever go together well maybe we're not for you. You think true crime and comedy never, ever, ever go together? Well, maybe we're not for you, but maybe we are. Give it a shot, but no bitching afterwards. How about that? Let's make a deal with that. While we make that deal, let's sit back and clear the lungs. I don't care where you are. I don't care. Out your car window, frozen food aisle, like we said.

Stand upon your cubicle at work and shout to all the miserable people. Shut up. upon your cubicle at work and shout to all the miserable people, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, Jimmy. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah. Let's go. We're going all the way to Utah this week. Oh, hey.

Hey, hey. It's been a while since we've been in Utah. We're going to Oakley, Utah. Oh, the birthplace of douche glasses. Yeah, that's where they come from, which it's probably actually what they're trying to. Because this is right outside Park City, Utah, which is all skiing and snow. I'll bet that's where it's from. It's probably from there.

They probably started the goggles there. Probably. About an hour to Salt Lake City. About a half hour outside Park City. So it's right there. about a half hour outside park city so it's right there uh four hours to our last utah episode paragona which was episode 303 born to win and uh that was a guy who was certainly not born to win but had a tattoo that said born to win which is amazing to me i just love that certainly optimistic oh jesus this is in summit county utah Area code 435. History of this place.

It was Ute Indians were here first. Utah, the Ute Indians. And then here came the Mormon pioneers, as they were called at the time. And they were like, oh, God, these people are weird. And the Indians obviously got out of that basin pretty quickly at that point. Stop knocking on our houses. They just won't go away. No, we threatened them our houses or like they just won't go away we no we threatened and we tried they just won't stop they just keep they're really nice they keep

bringing baked goods and we just want them to leave they're they're smiling no that's the thing you try to be mean to them and they just keep being nice to you it's hard to it's hard to get them to go away strange uh parley pratt came here parley preley P. Pratt was this guy's name. Triple P. Okay. Parley Pratt. He was sent to the valley from Salt Lake City by Brigham Young himself. Is that right?

In 1850 to check on the possibility of establishing settlements along the Weber River near the Provo River. And his report was, quote, a good valley, abundant grass, and plenty of water. Already occupied. People here. That's why there's a bunch of people here already, he left off that part. There's still a lot of people. We're going to take it. Another guy named Thomas Rhodes was the, quote, first white man to winter here to spend the whole winter here.

He was an explorer, trapper, prospector, farmer, friend of Brigham Young. And he was called from California by Brigham Young when there was a need for money for the church. So this guy would disappear for a week or so into the mountains and come back with a shitload of gold and give it to them and say, here you go. Yeah, keep building stuff. And then they'd go back to California and come back when they needed money. So, yeah. Oakley's original name was Oak Creek,

which is a lot of places named Oak Creek. Changed its name to Oakley in 1886. And it was actually, the new name was chosen from in like a contest a bunch of settlers submitted their name ideas and they took oakley there somebody heard of little annie that's that's what it is so at one time they made a shitload of dairy products there and now it says more recently it is focused on cattle and horse feeding and haying. Haying. Haying. So they make hay here. Also, this is a huge place for recreational outdoor shit.

This is where you ride a horse through a mountain to go fishing and hiking. You do all that kind of shit. This is everybody's Instagram story as they go to Sundance that weekend. And they spend one day though, on a horseback and overlooking a mountain so they can, you know, in Oakley. Um, here's a story from here, which I just found amazing. Um, this is a story that somebody wrote a true story. This is like their diary from back then. Um, quote, we, like everyone else had outside plumbing and no running water. We always had a Sears catalog and Montgomery Wards catalog in the outhouse, which was a real good idea.

We never had any money to buy anything from the catalog. For years, I thought the Sears and Montgomery Wards catalogs were for that purpose only. What purpose? Wiping your ass. That's it? Yeah. They thought they send you these books so you can all wipe your ass. Oh, our ass wiping book is here and you can look at the stuff and then you can go, well, I'm done with that page and you wipe your ass with it.

Smooth and clean. I looked at all the winter coats. Then they would compost it. Yeah. Maybe back then it was, I'm sure it was on rougher paper. I don't think it was that slick paper in the 80s and 90s. That Montgomery Ward catalog was glossy when we were kids. Remember that?

It was like, whoa, this thing is slick. Can you imagine sitting in an outhouse shitting, reading magazines, a very nice thing. That you can't afford. And then wiping your ass with the advertisements for indoor plumbing toilets. Yep. Jesus Christ. Yikes. So he said, here's an event they wanted to relay.

My mother took us all to find the milk cow. I guess the milk cow had run away. We got to chase it. Chase down the milk cow. He said. If you want cereal, you got to go get your milk. God damn it. Cow ran away.

Chasing him with a bowl of Lucky Charms in one hand, waving at him in the other hand. Hey, come back here, goddamn it. Come here, Jesse. Jesus Christ. He said, we were walking along a trail through the trees when suddenly just ahead there stood a grizzly bear. Uh-oh. Standing on its hind legs and in no friendly mood.

Well, I would assume, I always assume a grizzly bear's not in a good mood. Even if he's like drinking a cup of coffee and he's smoking a cigarette and he waves me over i'm still thinking he doesn't want me there i don't think you're finding the shaman bears in the woods i swear to god he could be hanging out just have like a hipster mustache and he's like come here pal let's talk for a minute you know and i'm like no you want any weed no i'm getting the fuck out of here you're to eat me. I know how this ends.

I know this. I'm not Grizzly Man. I'm not stupid. He said, you can imagine how Mother felt. I don't believe any of us kids felt danger like she did. I recall the incident, but not the particulars. My mother, in relating the story, said that she told us not to move or make a sound. I'm certain, knowing my mother, that her heart was reaching out to God for help.

Soon the grizzly dropped down on all fours, turned, and ambled away. There was no further attempt to find the cow that night. Yeah. Fuck the Lucky Charms. It just left? It just left. It was like, because if you stand perfectly still, sometimes they don't want to deal with you anymore. It's one of the strategies, which I don't know how you do that.

Fight or flight, that's neither. You know what I mean? Your body has fight or flight. That's stay still and don't move. That's neither, Mom. Also, you know what happens when a pizza stays still and doesn't move? I fucking eat it. I eat it faster.

Yeah. If it ran away, I probably wouldn't eat as much pizza. If you had to worry about the pepperoni getting up and running off the top of it, I'd probably order it without it. So they found water. In 1998, Mayor Doug Evans and the town of Oakley discovered an underground aquifer containing water that had not seen the surface in at least 18,000 years. How the hell do you know that? Because... Pterodactyl bones?

No, you could tell the... Geologists can tell. Oh, okay. So they saw the sentiment in between. They didn't just like pull the water up and go... 18,000. They licked it. Yeah.

Like a Somalia. It's good. Yeah, put one finger in. Touched it like in a cop movie when they get coke. That's the good stuff there. It's good. Yeah, put one finger in, touched it like in a cop movie when they get Coke. That's the good stuff there. 18, guys, 18. 18, 18. According to carbon testing on other shit, too, is how they found that.

Found nearly 1,900 feet below the surface in a layer of Mississippian limestone, the water proved among the purest ever tested free of tritium and any other contamination from the nuclear age it's totally all of them all the shit we've done to fuck everything up in the modern day this has been protected yeah mississippian limestone requiring little treatment the water is free of pesticides herbicides and the town now uses this water from the humbug well for its municipal supply and local businessmen have bought the rights to the water and sell it under different labels. So that's how good it is. Famous people that live here.

There is a famous person. Katherine Heigl lives here. Oh, she's there now? Awful, yeah. She's there right now. Oh, with a shit face? Oh, no. Look at her.

All angry. Reviews of this town. There's there right now. With a shit face? Oh, no. Look at her, all angry. Reviews of this town. There's only one review and they love it. Quote, many people don't like the idea of living in a small town, but I love it. All right. I enjoyed my small high school where I knew everyone and had many opportunities. I hope that I can move there when I grow up and have a house and a family of my own. Aren't you from there when you grow up?

So they left. They were kicked out. Hold on. They went to high school there. Yeah. Therefore, grown up now once you're done with high school. But then they said, I hope I can move there when I grow up, which is. You're all growns up.

I don't understand what they're talking about. And then you live there. Why'd you move if it was so great? What's going on? Who are you? Did two people split this review what's happening you don't have do you have to get on gray's anatomy to be able to afford this place well let's talk about it people of this town 1763 small place oh it's tiny it's tiny yeah very small uh 53 female for about 47% male. Median age is low, about 32.7. And a lot of that is because there's a lot of Mormons here, obviously.

And a lot of people 25 to 34 and shitloads of kids 0 to 9. So there you go. All the towns in Utah kind of have that same demographic like that. Family here, about 69% of the people here are married. That's Utah, yeah, because it's normally 50-50. Only 7% are divorced, which is way lower than normal. 54% are married with children. Only 5% are single with children, so that doesn't happen often.

Race of this town, 89.7% white. So pretty white. It's what you expect in the mountains of Utah. 0.0% black. Okay. 0.1% Asian. Interesting. Hi.

There. Have you seen our Asian man? Hi. Wave to him. Hi. Hi, Bill. His name's Bill, by the way. Hi, Bill.

He waves back. How you doing? Just showing. I'm showing him. I'm showing my friend. He hasn't seen. I told him I bet him five dollars. There was an Asian. He didn't believe me. OK. And he waves back by one percent, point one percent, 10.2 percent Hispanic. It is rich white people and the people they hire to clean their shit up is essentially what lives here. And that's what it is. It's Park City, Utah. That's what that is. Religion, 59% are religious. That's low.

It's normally 50-50 in the rest of the country. Yeah, but that's low for fucking Utah. It is. 36% of the people here, though, are Mormon. So that is definitely. And 15% are Catholic, which almost lines up with the Hispanic ethnicity pretty well. And a couple other people there. 2.0 percent Jewish. What?

Hey, hey, hey. Let's do it. Hava Nagila. Nagila. Hava Nagila. Nagila. Hava Nagila. Nagila.

I don't know the words. Hey. I love it. We don't get to do it very often. Unbelievable. Two percent in Utah. I'm shocked. know the words hey i love it we don't get to do it very often unbelievable two percent two percent it's just it's a i don't know if they live here full-time i don't know a lot of people live here half the time too this is like a vacation place yeah so a lot of people that is like that yeah there's a lot of people like for everybody i don't know out of the 1700 i don't know how many are

full-time residents it's probably not that many. 58% in the last election voted Democratic in this county. 39% voted Republican. 3% Independent. And unemployment rate here is about half the rest of the country, which is very low. Median household income, $73,295 here. They're doing well. Which is high, but the problem is the cost of living is also high. The 100's average.

Here it's $132. That's not bad. And the median home cost here, Jimmy. Oh, boy. I feel like a drum roll is needed for this. Oh, God. $597,100. $600,000.

Median home cost. Right in the middle remarkable that is so expensive holy shit wow um oh my god and you can't even find anything for that that's like a that's that's like a condo like that's attached to other shit it's like an apartment basically everybody out um so if we've convinced you that well we don't have to convince you if you have millions of dollars and would like a pretty place to summer and ski in the winter, we have for you the Oakley, Utah Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for $1,176, which is actually like the national average, but I don't think they exist here. That was the problem.

Probably not. It's more like nightly, weekly rentals, not like an apartment to rent. That's friendly sublets for the night when somebody's too drunk. You can pay me $1,100 and go home in the morning. It's $1,176 for the night. I found a four-bedroom, three-bath, 3,250 square feet. to go home in the morning. It's 1176 for the night. I found a four bedroom three bath, 3,250 square feet. It's a log cabin

with some upscale, you know, touches to it is all it is. It's all it is. But when you look at the picture of it, it just sits on a mountainside by itself. It's beautiful. The view is just of the valley and the mountains and the mountains. It's an

unbelievable view. Pretty remarkable. $998,000. It's a little pricey, let's just say. I was waiting to hit you with that. Hit you over the head with that. Shake your right... Shake with my right hand and bash you

with a club with my left. That's how that works. Next up, we have a seven-bedroom, eight-bath, T-Ball for each and every B-Hull. One for the neighbors. 8,312 square feet. It's another big log cabin mansion, but this one's bigger, obviously. It's fucking huge.

8,000 square feet. 8,000. They have a little tiny guest house cabin, but it's like a little kid play thing. It's like a little mini house. It's kind of neat, I guess. But otherwise, it's just kind of a big boring mansion if you're like, you just want to show people that you're rich and can afford this. It is $2,799,999. Almost $3 million to flex.

Good Lord. Here we go. Five bedrooms, seven baths, 7,188 square foot place. It's big. It's like four acres. They have a whole garage for snowmobiles. Put it that way. Oh, God.

That's so weird. They have one whole garage just dedicated to filling it up with snowmobiles. That's how rich these people are. just dedicated to filling it up with snowmobiles. That's how rich these people are. And that's become a market, James, that people compete with their friends who's got the cooler one. It's fucking unbelievable. It's crazy.

$3,400,000 for that. It's a joke. It costs a lot of money to live here. Let's just say that. It's very expensive. Things to do here. The Oakley Rodeo. Okay. Yay. It's mixed in with the

Oakley Independence Day as well. There's like a whole... Oh, they do it in the summer. The whole big thing here. Yeah. So, the annual event's a four-day professional rodeo cowboy association sanctioned event the prca sanction you betcha have you ever heard of that before you know of that buckle james

that says the prca is everything oh boy yeah that's true it competes with the nfl i know we're talking about valuable ventures and entities uh featuring bucking bronx rare and bulls cowboys cowgirls and rodeo queens oh isn't that nice there's a that sounds like the prca to me that's nice they have right it's i like how inclusive they are queens really i like how inclusive they are that's very nice they have a nice rodeo is it like a western drag show is that a western themed drag show that's nice of them to do that i'm glad you know you want to be a lot of now now the the the lead lady on the horse comes out with the rainbow flag that's beautiful that's very welcome this just sounds like the event that borat was saying terrible things at and people were cheering for. Or wherever the fuck that was.

That's what that was. I think it was in Oklahoma, was it? I don't remember. Oh, yeah, that one. But it seems similar to that. So, and Rodeo Queens are all in attendance to make this a true Western-rooted celebration. There's all sorts of shit like that. They have concession

stands everywhere by the way huge here here's our the menu i would watch a gay rodeo i think that would be hilarious that'd be great that would be an event yeah it'd be fun i don't know about hilarious it would be entertaining thing i've ever seen i mean i think they would they'd add more elements to it yeah i'm that's why they would make it funny on purpose that's what i'm saying it'd be a show it wouldn't be yeah so fun yeah i'll go to a gay rodeo that'd be pretty hilarious like you said no jeans under those well i think there would be a show going on it would have a thing happening it wouldn't just be sparklers and yeah it wouldn't just be like well here here's chit chet's been riding since he was three and there he comes out and he's got a big lip of tobacco and no expression on his face

dominates a bull I want to see some colorful something concession stands here include the famous rodeo hamburger get that hot dog it's just a hamburger

it's a rodeo hamburger it's made from the beaten bulls, the defeated bulls who make fucking hamburgers out of them. The ones that we can ride for 20, 25 seconds. We just grind them up. Grind them on up now. Hot dogs, pizza by the slice, nachos, bottle drinks, popcorn, cotton candy, snow cones.

They should have just said normal concession stand shit. It's your run-of-the-mill circus shit. We didn't need that. Hot beverages like hot chocolate and coffee. Note, it says, the Oakley Independence Day Rodeo is a dry rodeo where alcohol is not sold or served. No outside food or drinks are allowed. So you can't even be YOP? Unbelievable.

Shit-faced in the parking lot. Yeah, there's all sorts of... What's a rodeo without a beer? It seems like that's the only way to get through it. I would think you... The only people not shit-faced would be the bulls, I would imagine, right? Everybody else would be hammered. Who gets on a bull without having a couple drinks first, you know what I'm saying?

I swear to God, dude, I want to take you so bad. I can't deal with those fucking people. I can't. I can't do it. It seems like the only way to do it. It seems right to me. They have, what is this? Oh, my God.

You can do the Junior Rodeo Rough Stock Sign Up. Oh, boy. That sounds like rough trade there tougher than mutton busting jesus these are like hardened criminal children rider must have closed toed shoes they'll have these kids their sandals hanging on how many times do you have a kid out there in fucking berkinson sheep ages eight and under steer ages seven to fourteen i don't know if that's how old the sheep are or the kids i'm not sure then there's a treasure dig an arena race and a chicken race so get get on down there for that i want to see what that means

this place this is a disaster i don't want any part of this crime rate in this town. Well, we're interested in here. Property crimes, about half the average rate. Very, very low. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime also about it's low. It's about one third of the national average. So it's surprising how not violent nor thieving you are when you have $3 million to buy a cabin. When you have a garage full of snowmobiles, what is there to steal?

Before you buy a garage full of snowmobiles, you have to have everything else, right? Right. You've run out of necessities and even things that you might need. Funeral suits, you got like five of the you have everything covered and then you're like let's buy a shitload of snow i have so much money i just need to let's buy a bunch of this isn't even our regular house we just come here a couple weeks out of the year this is where we just fuck around that's that's rich so that said let's talk about a murder shall we right now uh this is oh my god this is a crazy fucking story wow harrowing tale of disaster this is it's insane and and heroism

and uh this story has it all it really does great um we're gonna go back to 1990 for this oh i love it not long ago this is not it's pretty long ago it's 30 they're over 30 years now we're 33 years ago now here and it doesn't feel long i know i'm not old god damn i swear you're sitting here going yeah married with children's on tonight that's normal right i remember it it can't be that long ago. It can't be that long ago. Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly. Shit. Meanwhile, we have 20-year-old listeners that are like, oh, my God, that was like so long ago. That's how we would.

You have gray belly hair. That's how old you are. Stop it. That's how we would think of like the late 60s. Like, wow, that was super long before we were born. And, you know, people were hippies and stuff. And that was like a flash to then. So December 22, 1990, as a matter of fact. This was right before Christmas.

And there's a lot of Christmas involved in this. Well, not really. But this is like the story of this is just the Grinch. This is the opposite of Christmas. The opposite of a Christmas tale here. Let's talk about some people. Let's start out with Kay Tidwell Tide. Tiede?

God, I wish I knew how to say this better. T-I-E-D-E. That sounds like Tide, right? Sounds like Tide. We're going to go with Tide. So Kay Tide here, Tidwell Tide. She's 51. Her husband, Rolf, is also 51.

R-O-L-F. Rolf. He's also 51. He came over with his parents. He's an immigrant. So he came with his parents when he was young, young, young. And he's had a successful business, thriving since 1969 at this point. So they're a successful couple.

They don't even live here. They live in Humble, Texas. Really? That's Humble, Texas. That's where they're from. Humble. A little humble. There's no H. It's Humble.

It's Humble, Texas. We did a story there, right? Yeah, I think we did. Yeah, I think that was one of our first ones, as a matter of fact. No, that was Hawkins, Texas, I believe. It was just about a year ago. We did that one yeah that's right plenty of plenty of texts and emails about how you don't pronounce the h whatever it's well

you do in the rest of the world just because you don't speak english in texas that's not my fucking problem okay no we're just no we there's more of us we're not you. Okay. H's are there for a fucking reason. And on that word, which is a goddamn word, pick another word and then make one up and say, you don't pronounce H on that one. I'll go. Okay, sure. I don't care. But humble is a word.

Okay. Sorry. Can't take it anymore. If these people in their pronunciations, I can't do it. Call your place gonorrhea. If you don't want to pronounce the H. Somebody tried to correct me about like a biblical pronunciation from the show last week. And I went, I don't fucking care.

What are you talking about? Who cares? It has nothing to do with the story or the murder. Are you? Did you? Why would you type that? Like, what would make a person type that? You got to have other shit to do that's better than typing something that you know no one cares about.

Why would you do it? Why don't you just open up your window and yell it to the woods? It's the same thing. I'll hear it. Keep the window closed. Say it to the wall and then move on. Remember in the Inbetweeners when he says, you should put that in the suggestion box, the principal says to Will. And he goes, where is it?

And he goes, any bin? Any receptacle you find, just ball it up and throw it in there. I'll be sure to find it. Any bin? So. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder,

decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if

you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad

free by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They have two daughters, by the way. Lene Tide, who's 20, and Tricia, who is 17 at the time. And they're going away for a wonderful, idyllic—Texas isn't like the most Christmassy place because it's a desert, basically. But Utah and the mountains up here, this is Christmas, man. I mean, they're going up to a beautiful cabin that they own up here in Oakley and they're going to spend the holidays there as a big extended family.

Other people are coming. Grandma's coming. They're inviting family too. Yeah. They're going to have – it's Christmas vacation meets the Grinch, this says. Destination Griswolds. Yeah. This this says. Destination Griswolds. Yeah, Destination Griswolds. They have their Utah – National Lampoon's Utah vacation, this says.

They have all their presents there and the tree set up and everything else. They have a camcorder and they're recording themselves wrapping presents and laughing and having fun. And this is like what we would have dreamt of being a family was like when we were little like oh i bet that's what good families do you know like james i watched three ninjas and was jealous yeah no shit they had their own rooms yeah clean carpet that's pretty badass it was awesome yeah they were no their life was amazing are you kidding me i would have i would have killed to be one of the three ninja people.

Watching that movie, I was like, I know what that house smells like, and I want it. I know. I want it so bad. It looks so good. That pantry has so many snacks in it. So many. There's like multiple things of Chips Ahoy in there. Yeah.

There's so many Chips Ahoy. You have Chips Ahoy and Oreos in that house. And different textures of it. Dry and soft. Oh, chewy. You got the chewy. that house and and different textures of it dry and soft oh chewy you got the chewy so uh the 22nd uh the the ladies they well they had all spent the night i guess away from the cabin at a relative's house and then they were coming back and then they were doing some christmas shopping and then coming

back to the cabin everybody was doing all right so um and then people were kind of rolling in from their cousins were going to show up that sort of thing but this is the main family who owns it and um so the night before they were or two nights before they have the video camera out and there's a tape of them laughing and joking and wrapping presents and stuff like that so um here comes grandma as well bet Beth Harmon Tidwell Potts. Oh. That is Kay's mom. That's mom's mom here. Yeah, she is 72 years old, partially blind, doesn't get around real well, but has a lot of energy and good spirit and not, you know, has all of her faculties and everything like that. But can't see or move real well, though. She's fun.

She holds onto your arm when you take when you walk somewhere with her she doesn't put it that way so they're all here on a big extended vacation and um they said that uh their family owns this cabin and uh this is lanae will later say this the sound of the river the horses that are down in the pasture the birds it's absolutely heaven on earth to me. She said, my mom had given it a name, Tides Tranquility. It's got a name. It's got a name.

I have pictures. I'll post pictures on social media of outside the cabin. You're like, oh, my God, this place is like, it's incredible. It's incredible. She said, because of the serenity and the peace. They said the cabin was an awesome place to go. They used to go up there all the time and aunts and uncles and cousins would come and they would be a big, you know, have a good time. Said it was about two and a half miles off the road and you'd have to use a snowmobile during the winter to get there. Have to.

Have to. It snows like a bastard up here. So it's definitely snow. It's amazing. And it gets below zero here as well, as we'll talk about. So they, Lene, Kay and Grandma Beth all show up. There's nobody else at the cabin. They show up. They were spent the night away from the cabin and they're showing up to, you know, go back to the cabin and get ready for the night. And they're all going to hang out and they're going to be there for the next few days. And some people are coming. They were in Salt Lake City the night before with other relatives. What a nice family this is. The whole family is doing great. So they come up to the cabin. They roll up. And as they're coming up to the cabin, the Leneay says my hands were freezing because they had to come

two and a half miles from the road so you get really cold it's super cold she said it was bitter a bitter cold winter that year i asked my mom to hurry and unlock the door i needed to run in and run my hands under some water and i would be right back down to help her so i had some shit outside to carry in but but she said, got to thaw them out, got to run them under some cold water here to thaw them. It is crazy how when your hands get that cold, once they do warm up,

then they're like on fire. Yeah. And they hurt so bad. Yeah, so you got to run them under cold water and not hot water or else it really fucks them all up. It's not good. That's bad.

Gradually warm it. Yeah, gradually. So she says, I got to the top of the stair, meaning to go in. She said, and I saw a gray flash go behind the refrigerator. She said, and the first thought that popped in my mind was, oh, a cousin's already here. Okay. And that they were going to jump out and say boo. You know what I'm saying? Hey, look at that. Hey,'s already here. Okay. You know, and that they were going to jump out and say, boo. You know what I'm saying?

Hey, look at that. Hey, we're here. Good to see you. And hugs and kisses and hot cocoa for all. And she says it didn't turn out that way, though. No. She says behind the refrigerator came a frizzy headed man in a gray sweatshirt with his pistol pointed at me that's not a good that's not idyllic or holiday the this was a hallmark movie and it just got real different real real grim it got

real grim the the the shiny couple just walked in from going to the town square and you know seeing everybody and eating gingerbread horse shit and then now they have a gun in their face and there's some scraggly dude here. He said, a frizzy headed man in a gray sweatshirt with his pistol pointed at me. I assumed that he would just want to rob us and be on his way. As soon as my mom came to the top of the stairs out from the back bedroom, another robber with a really thick with really thick Coke bottle glasses on was pointing a gun at my mother. So there's two robbers, and they're coming from two different parts of the house with guns pushing everybody into the center here.

So these two people, let's find out who they've encountered, because this is a nightmare. This idyllic middle-of-nowhere thing is what you want, except if two people with guns break in and then there's no one around to help you for a long way. It's you and your mother and your grandma and only you. That's it. It's a 20-year-old mom and partially blind, not moving real well, 72-year-old grandma. So this is not exactly a fighting force. and partially blind, not moving real well, 72-year-old grandma. Oh, Jesus. This is not exactly a fighting force to, you know. This is not the thing, then, just.

No, this is definitely not. If her grandma started making ninja moves, though, I think it would probably scare the guys away. They'd probably be like, damn, what the fuck is, imagine what the 20-year-old can do. Jesus, run. So the two men in the house are Vaughn hayes von is his first name lester hey i'm not hayes taylor i'm sorry von lester taylor i was looking at something else yes exactly von

lester taylor could also i have it never mind it's a no i saw an h somewhere else and uh there we go he's 25 years old von Von Lester Taylor and, his buddy here, the other guy, he's the frizzy haired guy behind the fridge. The other guy is Edward Stephen Deli. He is D L E I like going to a deli. D E L I.

Just, yep. D E L I. Down to the deli. He's 21 years old. Edward Stephen Deli. Now, who the fuck are these lunatics?

They are what would be called their walk-away escapees. Oh, no. Not full escapees, walk-aways. They were at a halfway house after both being paroled from prison. They were at a halfway house, and one day on December 14 14th they just went out in the morning for routine job search like they're supposed to do and just never came back never came back this was the orange orange street correctional facility here um so more to the to the uh to the the whole nightmare situation this is like what is like what the court systems,

this is their nightmare. This is everybody's nightmare. And it's three days before Christmas, so let's make it even worse. You can add jingle bells in the background of all of this. You can add Bing Crosby softly crooning over all of this shit that I'm going to tell you now.

Here's one of the scary ghost stories that we're going to tell. Yeah, this is a scary ghost story. would say so this is terrifying so um taylor had been serving a 1 to 15 year term which is a big span that's a lot anywhere either very short or extremely anywhere from from 1 to i don't know. So something between stealing a car and killing a guy. Somewhere in there, we think it is. So he's serving that for aggravated burglary, while Deli was on a zero to five year sentence. Utah is just real willy nilly.

Very willy nilly with the window that we're going to go in. I guess they give the parole board a lot of leeway to hang on to people or let the i don't know uh really trust in the system yeah he's in for arson so okay he seems like a real sweetheart right there um as long as nobody got hurt i mean whatever yeah maybe the other one he just and we're yeah yeah i don't know um and we're doing exactly what old boy was put in for anyway. Aggravated burglary. This is not good.

Yeah, except it's not because they weren't just there robbing the house and trying to get out and came upon. They were waiting for these people, as we'll talk about. Oh, no. Oh, they made themselves quite comfortable. Wait till we talk all about it. It's fucking bonkers. Wait till we talk all about it. It's fucking bonkers.

He, Taylor was paroled. Von Lester Taylor was paroled October 23rd and moved to the Ogden Community Corrections Center. He stayed there until November 23rd when he was transferred to the Orange Street halfway house. So he was released on the 14th to look for a job. Never came back. Now, they tried to revoke his parole while he was at the original halfway house. Originally, they tried to revoke his parole. Corrections officers tried to revoke it because they learned he'd been seen in a gun store in Ogden while in a halfway house on parole.

So you have no business being near a gun store. Where are you going to store that if you do buy it? How are you going to – that if you do buy it? Yeah, it's not good. So when they went to the parole board, though, the board of pardons found insufficient evidence to return Taylor to prison. They said they transferred him instead from an Ogden halfway house to a Salt Lake City halfway house. They just transferred him to Salt Lake City instead. And that's where he met Edward Stephen Delly there. So rather than sending him back to prison for going to a gun store, they said you can't just do that. They said the board ruled that there was not sufficient probable cause to justify issuance of a warrant.

From the information we had, he was not in possession of a weapon. Someone saw him in a gun store, saw him in a store at a gun case looking at guns. In itself, that's not sufficient. That's not a parole violation. If it's a gun store, that should be. If it's just like Walmart and he wandered by the rifles and he's looking at the.30-06. If there's a sporting goods store and he happened to wander into that section, then you can't. But if he tried to buy one, that would be a problem, I would think. But now Delhi, on the other hand, Delhi was paroled November 27th and went directly to Orange Street there.

So immediately there. He also, on the 14th, failed to return. They took off together. They said, quote, they were both placed on walkaway status and fugitive warrants were issued. But that's not a high profile item. But it's not something you'd overlook if you ran into them. So they're not out actively searching for these guys. Right.

Because they have police involved. Yeah. And they're certainly arrested. One of them gets pulled over. They're definitely going back. But other than that, they're not like have an active you know hunt for these guys where are they so they said that acquaintances of delhi there's not a lot of information on delhi he's only 21 and his life in the last three years has been very strange he's gone major extreme swing but that's all we really know about him here

his friend called him a man who was running from himself i don't know that's a real cryptic way to put something i'm not sure exactly what he fucking means there you know what i mean yeah that could mean a lot of things he's a man who's running from himself huh why are you such a poet tonight just tell us what's wrong with the guy hey that's deep and all bro but um can you like your really like your synopsis, Shiloh? About characteristics, maybe something like that. Thank you, Robert Frost. But maybe if we just, you know, lighten up a little bit.

Tell us what he did. Give us a specific. He said he joined the Mormon church. So he wasn't a Mormon originally. Doesn't come from a Mormon family. But he joined the church and an all-Mormon fraternity at the University of Utah. So a year and a half before we are right where we are, he was at the University of Utah in an all-Mormon fraternity. And then he started setting fires.

And then he was arrested in 1989 on arson charges. And obviously that all went to shit. Dropped out of college. And then he started setting fires. And then he was arrested in 1989 on arson charges. And obviously that all went to shit. Dropped out of college. And next thing you know, he's holding a gun on three generations of a fucking family. In a cabin. At their Christmas cabin. So that is a huge swing in personality there. Yeah, I would say so.

Vaughn is a whole other case. He's pretty fucked up, Vaughn. Yeah, I would say so. Vaughn is a whole other case. He's pretty fucked up, Vaughn. Vaughn, his father, Thomas, said that about his childhood that he was convicted of aggravated robbery. And his dad was especially upset because the gun he used in the robbery was a family gun. He like took it from the house. You're not going to get it back and now you're upset about that?

Yeah, he's upset that he would take the a fam the family gun to the to the to do a robbery that's just you know what that's just lower than low you know i thought you was low boy but that's lower we all know that yeah you take a throwaway toss it in the river what the fuck's wrong with you i teach you nothing boy jesus christ now that now it's evidence forever god damn it we're watching goodfellas again sit your ass down. I'm going to teach you some stuff, boy. Tell you something. That's right.

They're building condos, so you got to dig them bodies up. That's how it works. They ain't going to be found now. Oh, no. His father was devastated to learn of the robbery that happened. He said he was just devastated. He said Vaughn always kind of liked to be left alone. When he worked, he was a good worker. He didn't want to go back to prison. He said it was just devastated. He said Vaughn always kind of liked to be left alone. When he worked, he was a good worker.

He didn't want to go back to prison. He hated it. He looked forward to going to school, getting his life together, and being an asset to society. Well, he's going about it. Asset of society. Yeah, I would say so. He's going about it in a very strange way right now. he's going about it in a very strange way right now so um in addition to this they say that he had some brain damage as well that we'll get into the many instances of his brain being damaged it's

he's like he's like a professional boxer at this point they're like an nfl quarterback he's got so many never played a day of athletics not not a down in his life he said uh he it was he had some mental health problems that was started surfacing about 1989 in 1989 his sister k sent a letter to the to a washington county judge expressing grave concerns about her brother's mental health this is before all of this obviously is in this aggravated robbery sentence. She first observed the traits at an early age, describing her brother as either depressed or paranoid, a loner, a person who did not fit in and suggested the need for psychiatric intervention. So she's like, listen, my brother's always been mad, fucked up. Maybe he needs help. She also described a history of alcohol abuse beginning in junior high

school yeah that's an indicator of some severe mental issues yeah well there's probably he's got underlying problems obviously that he's securities there for sure you know trying to yeah trying to drown that shit his father uh to von's father also sent a letter to the washington washington county judge explaining that von never graduated from high school, had difficulty holding a job, and experienced, quote, psychological problems as a result of a prior accident that left a big facial scar. Oh, shit. here, told diagnostic investigator Robin Williams, not that Robin Williams, that Vaughn had some pretty serious mood swings and also described a prior suicide attempt that Vaughn had. Okay. Taylor has evidence of head injuries and exposure to an overwhelming amount of farm chemicals

as well. So they think he is just brain damage through and through here. Accident-prone farm boys don't last long. No, no. They end up head first in a thresher. You know what I mean? Whoop, there goes a feet kicking. There he goes.

I knew it would happen at some time. Boy was accident-prone. And stuff was just feet hanging out of a hay bale somewhere. He's all bailed in. Just a pair of fucking Nikes sticking out. So he suffered his first head injury when he was two years old in 1967 after falling down a flight of stairs and had to be hospitalized for that. Oh, my goodness. That's then. Then when he was 12, 1977, he suffered a severe facial injury

when an aerosol can exploded in a campfire, embedding shrapnel in his face and arm. There's a lot of questions on that. I was just going to say, I don't know whether to start with, who the fuck wasn't an adult to say, don't put that in there jesus christ number one who gave a child an aerosol can within proximity at all of a fucking open flame it exploded which will happen they tell you keep out away from open flames

right on the side i mean there's a bunch of warnings even in 1990 there are there are seven. Even in the 70s, I think that was the one warning. Don't put in your fire or you're an idiot. It will explode and leave shrapnel embedded into your face and arm. It hit him in the face. Blew up in his face. Lucky he didn't take his eye out, but that left the big scar. In 1979, he was hospitalized after being thrown from a pickup truck in a rollover accident. He was 14.

In the bed, likely. I guarantee you he was in the bed. I'm sure he was. Whoopsie. Or on the roof. Yep. Sir Forden it like Stiles from Teen Wolf. Teen Wolfed it.

Yeah. You know he did. In April 8, 1983, he crashed his motorcycle and was again hospitalized. Would you give this guy a motorcycle? No. No, you are not stable. No, you're accident prone as shit. You're not going anywhere near.

We're going to get you like a Volvo. We're going to put like cushions on the outside. It started with you can't operate stairs. No, you're not getting a motorcycle. Well, he didn't have it long. Apparently, April 8th, 83, crashed his motorcycle, hospitalized again in elementary school to turn back the clock a little bit on him. He was standing upright in a plastic saucer while being pulled along the sidewalk like those snow things like Clark Griswold went. Yeah. And he's standing in it.

He's standing in it, which, again, dumb thing that kids do. He fell face first, landing on his forehead, causing a, quote, doorknob-sized bump on his forehead, according to medical records. That can't be good. We call that a goose egg. Yeah. A big one. In 1989, while in Utah State Prison, he hit his head on a metal stairwell.

He is a mess. He never learned to operate stairs. Never. Terrible. All the way up until he was old enough to go to jail, he can't operate them. He still can't do it. He's in prison. I can rob people, but I can't operate steps.

He, after that, suffered from migraine headaches as well and was taking medication on and off for the migraines. The man doesn't put his hands down when he falls, James. He doesn't break his own fall. Every fall is directly to the dome piece. I don't understand what he's doing. He leads with his forehead and everything. Yeah, it's like, I don't want to break my wrist.

I'll just use my forehead to break my fall. Who are you? Jesus Christ. Yeah. It's like, I don't want to break my wrist. I'll just use my forehead to break my fall. Who are you? Jesus Christ. Jesus. And during the 70s and 80s, he spent his summers working on the family farm in Idaho and was repeatedly exposed to pesticides and other farm chemicals. And apparently he got

too close to chemicals he wasn't supposed to get so close to. Of course he did. I feel like supervision is an issue here. If there's aerosol cans exploding in kids' faces at the same time they're overexposing themselves to farm chemicals, I feel like maybe keep an eye on that kid better. That might be the solution. From two, he's tumbling downstairs, you guys.

This is a mess. Where's mom? Jeez, where's dad where's anybody i don't give a shit is there a neighbor nearby where's the local pedophile at least he'll keep him alive i don't care at this point he's fucking gonna be gonna die someone keep an eye on him i'm not saying to touch him you guys yeah i don't want the pedophile to touch him i'm saying he'll keep he'll he'll watch him oh, look at that over there. Fine.

Keep an eye on him. If he falls down some steps, he can call 911. You know what I mean? He might not. No, he'd probably go over and just take his prone carcass and no good. Ooh, he's not alert. Oh, boy, look at this. Yeah, perfect.

Got it. Yes. He's like fucking real weird. We just made the weirdest pedophile ever. Yes. Voiced by. Yeah, brother. Hulk Hogan.

Or him. Or the guy from NBA. What was his name? Yes. Oh, Marv Albert. Yes. That would be amazing. Yes.

So his family members recall the use of chemicals in controlling insects, various poisons used to control rodents, gophers, and use of fertilizers. Who knows if he was eating this shit? He's an idiot, this guy. He's huffing it. Yeah. These various chemicals were applied by hand spray and crop duster. hand spray and crop duster at times jesus christ at times von taylor was standing under the crop duster as it sprayed chemicals upon the field what the fuck are you come in you supervision take you shouldn't stand under there while they spray poison on it you dumb fuck get inside

holy shit this kid is killing aphids for christ's sake wow if you see bugs falling from the sky that's a bad sign go inside it's out there with his arms out spinning around yeah yeah hills are alive yeah he's like i love the rain mouth open hills are alive with pesticides mouth wide open taking it in tongue landed on his tongue um other times that's not enough poison uh at other times he had direct contact with chemicals when they were sprayed by hand or while changing the sprinkler heads immediately after spraying mr jesus von taylor's sisters recall suffering from headaches and nausea after pesticides were sprayed onto the field. Yeah, because it's poison.

Right. Additionally, you add in a significant history of substance abuse and alcoholism in both his maternal and paternal families as well. Of course. Which he's got all of that. He loves drugs and booze. He loves it all. His father was an alcoholic who died of cirrhosis of the liver, or his grandfather was. Mrs. Taylor also, the other side, his mom, history of alcoholism and depression.

Four of his father's brothers, so four of his uncles, have been treated for alcoholism, drug abuse, and mental health problems. treated for alcoholism, drug abuse, and mental health problems. One of the brothers who Vaughn was very close to in the late 1980s is completely disabled because of alcohol, drugs, and mental health problems. He receives Social Security benefits and can't work and all that sort of thing. Vaughn Stevens' alcohol, drug use, and mental issues were known when he went to jail in 89 and are even mentioned in reports from then. His older brother, John, was placed in an inpatient psychiatric unit for mental health problems and alcoholism around that time as well. This family, these genes didn't go together everything's nothing's good here nothing is working out it's almost like that that farm living is really hard and you sometimes drink to forget

it i get well it seems like i don't think they're using poisons correctly i feel like all these people are like laden with pesticides and their brains are fucking riddled with it i don't even know if this is mental health issues or poison. It doesn't help that they're not careful even in day-to-day life and take a flaming exploding aerosol can to the face. And you can't navigate steps. So his brother had been on – oh, I'm sorry, Von. No, his brother was placed on Zoloft and Wellbutrin and shit like that. His other older brother had undergone inpatient alcohol and mental health treatment at the LDS Dayspring program.

He is an admitted alcoholic who suffers from clinical depression. His sister, Cheryl, also treated for clinical depression and panic disorder, takes Zoloft, Trazodone, and Paxil all together, and is also obsessive-compulsive. Oh, she's a party. There's not one person in this family who doesn't have a lot of problems. Everybody has problems, but they have like six, seven of them all together at the same time, and it's everybody. It's like clearly the genes't mixing correctly um his her his other sister that's why they have to have nine kids too how many fucking kids do you have we're all fucked up it works we're all fucked up we make kids that are all fucked up too let's have nine okay wow this one doesn't work either let's try again jesus his other sister sana had been treated for clinical depression and takes various medications as well.

So, I mean, his whole family's got mental health issues and substance abuse in his family. He began drinking at about 13, 14. He said he drank to become accepted by peers. He was trying to, you know, because that's what you do when you're a teenager. And some people, if you're prone to alcoholism, you take it a different direction. He would drink three to four beers on weekends. He said, though, when he drank, he became crazy, like immediately. Three, four beers, and he's one of those guys.

13? Yeah. Yeah, but not not like drunk like aggressive and crazy and nuts there's some people that when alcohol touches their lips they turn into another person you're like who are you what the fuck you know like we know a few of those people we know them i've seen god especially comedians good Good God. You want to see a clown cry on the inside. Boy, woof. Find an alcoholic comedian.

That clown cry on the inside boils to the surface real fast. They call me at two in the morning and cry on the outside because that happened all the time. Jesus, this is wild. Oh, no. We know those people that go bat shit and you're like wow you're another human like me and you we have a we'll go out and have a couple bottles of wine at dinner we're giggling we're like arm and arm going down the street giggling like like arthur you know what i mean we're just like i can get hammered and have a great time yeah you won't we're high fiving and

shit we're like let's get chili dogs fuck yeah that's us when we drink together you won't know every word i say but it's great it'll be so much fun though i'm hurting nobody nope we've had so much fun like that you know what i mean so this is not that though this guy is a different deal he quit drinking as a teenager but then began drinking again after he became depressed after high school trying to find work he couldn't having to quit drinking as a teenager ah drinking's been too much for me i gotta quit boy i'll tell you what my my social studies grades are suffering and that's a problem i don't i said that's the line i'll when i cross that i'm done. So he did that. Now, he couldn't find a job, and so he started drinking more.

He started drinking again, had problems with his bills, started doing drugs, too, and getting into all that sort of thing. It seems like he's trying to numb, I don't know, the pesticide headaches or some shit. I don't know. Probably everything. There's not much that he's got to to really smile about and i know and i feel awful for him at this point you know you feel bad right up until now you know what i mean right up until he's got his gun pointed in a daughter mother and grandma's faces and uh at their christmas cabin behind a whirlpool waiting on

them yeah that's not good. Not cool. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi,

my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting

all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great.

A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus in the wondery app or on apple podcasts um what they had done after they escaped quote unquote from the halfway house they hitchhiked their way up to this area oakley from salt lake because taylor had a had family that owned a cabin in the area so he's like I know that area and it's remote and, you know, they won't look for us there and we won't run into any. This is like you have to really look for a cop up there. They're not going to not just cruising around in the middle of the mountains. So they spent several days on the mountain breaking into a bunch of empty cabins, eating

food, sleep and just using them to eat and sleep and shit like that. That's what we think anyway for now. So we think that they saw the family leave the house the night before and entered the house then and stayed there that night. And were still there the next day when the girls came or when the women came home at 3.30 in the afternoon. They were still there the next day when the girls came or when the women came home at 3 30 in the afternoon they were still there that's the thing about these cabins up there is when you get into them and nobody's been there in a while you've got to turn shit on if you see somebody in one everything's on the fucking water's going the generators running yeah there's stoves on the place is warm there's smoke coming out of the chimney. Yeah. It's all going.

Now, so these are the two guys that I've just described to you. Now it's even more terrifying knowing that we have a very unstable man. Oh, and Vaughn has been drinking and doing drugs over the course of this period too. So unstable doesn't begin to, you know, describe the situation here with these three women. And how far into his 1 to 15 is he? Just a year? He got paroled fast? Yeah, he got paroled fast.

He got paroled fast. And he hates prison, so maybe he was good in prison and then got out. So according to Lene, what happens is Deli seems to be, from what Lene says, seems to be the more vocal one here. Deli ordered them upstairs, All three of them get upstairs. So what he does is she says, mom was saying to him, what is it you want?

Why are you here? I'll give you anything. And Linnaeus said, seconds after she said that gunfire started exploding. It's an explosion. She says from everywhere. I saw my mom go down. I turned at that point and looked over my shoulder to my grams.

No. And saw her get shot in the head. And blood sprayed everywhere. And I heard her gasp for some breath. What the fuck, man? Just execute grandma right to the head. I mean, and mom. Okay? She said, imagine being this girl you're 20 mom grandma boom boom after mom just said whatever you want i'll give you whatever you want just you know i mean yeah it's fucking crazy again for for that not for

this obviously yep she started praying and taylor told her to stop and he said he was a devil worshiper and told her to stop praying now we don't know if that's just to scare her or what there's no evidence of him ever of any of that shit at all that's just i think he's trying to freak her out you know what i'm saying i think he's trying to scare the shit out of her i think shooting your mother and your grandmother right in front of you and having their blood and brain matter on your on your a person probably I think you got her pretty scared. I don't think you need to do much more to scare than that. So she said and then it was just dead silence. I felt pretty certain that they were dead.

My thoughts were turned to knowing that within minutes, my dad and sister would be coming too. Oh, God. There's going to be more people coming to this party, and there's no way to warn them. No. So she goes on to say, I can remember hearing snowmobiles coming in the distance, coming up there, and my heart sinking to my gut knowing that that was my dad and my sister. Holy shit. She said,

it felt like slow motion and quick all at once. I can remember the screams and grams falling off the stool and my mom reaching over her chest saying I've been shot. She, wow. She said, Taylor, uh,

shot her mom. Von Taylor shot her mom in the chest and shot grandma in the head. That's what she said then. Okay. But there's multiple gunshot wounds. So more happens here. The men then bound up Linnaeus with duct tape and put her in a bedroom. Okay.

She says, I begged him to let me use the phone. I said I needed to call the hospital and get some help, but they just acted like it was no big deal. They didn't do anything. It was just like another day to them. Well, yeah, the point is they're not going to do that and then call the cops on

themselves. Probably. You know what I mean? That that's, but she's thinking like a, you know, normal person. Hey,

like to help my mom not die. Want to do that? A person is not a criminal. know, normal person. Hey, like to help my mom not die. Want to do that? A person is not a criminal. Yeah. Yeah, totally. She said, I started to think and plan ahead. I knew there was a car and I knew that my dad left the car keys underneath the mat. So they know she knows where the family car is and where the keys are.

I knew that if we got these men out of the cabin and into the car, that my dad and sister would be safe. How do you do that, though? You know what I mean? Why is she thinking so rationally? I don't know. She's got to have some kind of clarity here, I guess. I mean-

That's great parenting. That's amazing. It's not what I would be thinking. No, I'd have been freaking out. I don't know. Thinking about how I'm about to die. Again, fight or flight. In these situations, I always imagine you have to attack.

You know what I mean? You just have to attack. Yeah. You have to hope they're not a great shot and attack them. I don't understand. But I can understand not doing that in the moment, too, of being like, you know, I'm a big person. So for me, it's like, well, I could probably reach you and get you maybe. But like.

She's playing chess with these guys. Yeah. She's still thinking about how to get them convinced to take the keys and go. Yeah. She's thinking maybe I can get them to call the hospital, you know. So, I mean, that's rational. She said, as this noise of the snowmobiles became closer, the man in the gray sweatshirt grabbed me from behind around the neck and put his gun to my back oh god so um then taylor and deli tells lanae to

pack a suitcase so she can leave with them not just gonna take you grab your stuff though we don't want you to be uncomfortable you know what i mean several days make sure to bring a change of clothes and all that sort of thing. And Linnea said this whole time, she said they weren't provoked. The mother and grandmother didn't say, didn't swear at them or yell at them or anything. Just, what do you want? I'll give you anything you want. So she said it was so crazy.

Then she remembered Taylor's comment to Deli following the shooting after they shot the grandmother. Taylor said, I had to shoot this bitch in the head twice about the grandmother. So this all takes, she, she makes it sound like, cause to her, I can't imagine you would be able to know what time is at this point. Right. You know, like time is a whole different concept right now. Like, so this all takes place over two hours. Wow. Two hours of all this.

It wasn't immediate. The whole thing wasn't immediate. So they sat there going, what are we going to do now? I guess we'll take her with us, grab her a pack of suitcase. So two hours later, here comes dad and sister Trish, right? And they arrive at the cabin. They get off the snowmobiles. And as soon as they get out off the snowmobiles, a man jumps out from the behind the garage with a full ski mask on and a gun. So terrifying. The scariest thing you could think of and the least expected thing you could think of. Right. It's Christmassy up in the cabin up there there a ski mask isn't scary because everybody wears it everybody wear but the gun with the ski mask those two things together starts to get a little

scarier that's like oh boy yeah we're making a puzzle i'm starting to see the picture now starting to see it oh boy it's coming together i don't like it and said demanded they come inside right away uh he said don't move don't move don don't move, don't move, don't do anything. So three don't moves and a don't do anything is what everybody thought. Linnae said once they got dad and Trish got inside, Linnae's in there. She said, my dad could see the tears in my eyes and it was an unspoken communication. And he knew at that point that something awful had happened to mom and grams. They're up in an upstairs bedroom.

He doesn't see them. The men asked Rolf if he had any money. So he reached into his pocket. He pulls out money that he has. It's $105 in cash he's got. It's the only cash he's got on him. So Rolf throws it down on the ground. Then the man in the Coke bottle glasses, to lenay who is delhi delhi uh is told by uh von

to shoot the guy von says shoot him so he says she says quote he pulled back the hammer i heard it and he refused to fire he didn't want to do it for some reason now. She said, so then the other man restraining my sister pulled his gun out and pointed it at my dad and pulled the trigger. God, Jesus. Once, click, no fire. Oh? Twice, click, no fire. Oh, God, the suspense. And then a third one, it went off.

Uh-huh. She said the blast was so close i could feel it okay so rolf by the way also after they took his wallet they had him take off his all of his snow gear so he's just in like he has no shoes he's barefoot t-shirt minimal clothing here you know what i mean by the way as well so rolf goes down on the ground he's lying on his lying down on his face and once he's on the ground they go over and shoot him again in the head oh god okay just to make sure then the guys say well we're taking this girl too now because the 17 year olds there they got a 17 year old and a 20 year, we're taking this girl too now because the 17-year-old's there. They got a 17-year-old and a 20-year-old.

We're taking them to be used as shields in case the cops get us. Oh, no. So you need a hostage to move behind. We each have to have one, so here we go. What's better than two pretty blonde girls? Let's get it on, fuckers. That's what they are too. They're both pretty blonde girls.

So they're not going to shoot them. So Jesus Christ. So R're not going to shoot them, you know. So Jesus Christ. So Rolf's been shot twice. At this point, Deli grabs a bunch of snowmobile fuel, starts going around the cabin. Oh, shit. Going in the corners, pouring gasoline out in the garage, pouring gasoline all in places that would start fires, where the wall meets the floor, in the corners, places like that. Goes over to Rolf, pours it all over his, from the middle of his torso down,

douses him in gasoline too, makes sure he'll go up in flames as well. So this is what happens now. the uh the girls are begging for their release they're saying please just let us go jeez you've fucking killed our whole family like please you know you've ruined christmas can we say that it's over yeah if they're if they remake the grinch this is before they did this has to be a scene because the Grinch goes up into a cabin and murders a whole fucking family and then kidnaps the daughters. It's pretty Grinchy, I would say. So, holy shit. But Deli said, you've seen what we look like.

We either have to take you with us or kill you. So the girls are like, what time are we leaving? Sounds great. Can't wait to get in the car. Is there a boarding? Is there a check-in? what time are we leaving? Sounds great. Can't wait to get in the car. Is there a boarding? Is there a check-in? What time do we go? Yeah, he essentially acted like he was giving them the choice,

but he was taking them either way because they're hostages they need. But he was acting, trying to get them to cooperate that way. So, oh, fuck. All right, so they're going to leave on snowmobiles. The funny part is Assistant county attorney Terry Christensen had ran into these guys several times over the last few days. He would say later, quote, I helped Deli get his three-wheeler unstuck on several occasions over the past week. He's been getting this thing stuck all week. All week, his own.

he's been getting this thing stuck all week, all week, his own. So Trish and, um, the Trish and Linnaeus described the scene like this. This is them pouring gasoline quote. They immediately got busy doing things. Linnaeus said they poured gasoline everywhere and set the cabin on fire.

So they, they set all these places on fire. She said, I can remember hearing the smoke alarms going off as the fire was already blazing in the cabin so trish said there was this sense of urgency to get out of there well yeah it's on fire literally they began wow i can't imagine what these girls are thinking going through right now this is the panic it's just unbelievable yeah everybody well you're having you can't even mourn everybody's dead in your whole family, and you've got to think about how to survive.

You can't think about that right now. And you're probably three to four hours into this ordeal. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, this is three hours in. I mean, this is terrifying. So she said, they began telling us we got to hurry and load the snowmobiles and get out of here. I had this feeling inside of me that we needed to listen and do what they said until the moment came to where Lanai and I could make our escape. So Lanai says, my sister and I drove these awful men on the snowmobiles out of the cabin.

The girls drove. The guys are shit at it. They're better at navigating and they know where they're going. And also if you drive, then they're on the back. They can just ditch. You know what I mean? Exactly. They can jump off. You make them I mean? Exactly. They can jump off.

You make them drive. They've got a responsibility. You see this all the time in a movie when a guy takes a drive and he'll put the gun to the person. They have to drive. What are they going to do? So they're doing this. She said, I drove one man behind me and my sister drove the other man behind her. Then Trish said, I had all kinds of different plans of how to wreck the snowmobile, how to throw him off into a tree, how to get rid of him.

Yeah. Smart. But all I could think was I couldn't leave my sister because if I do that, then this guy is going to pull his gun on my sister. And what the fuck? Then she's screwed. So Linnaeus said, I can remember wanting to stay close enough that I could still see my sister, that I felt a sense of security knowing that she was still there. So Trish says, there was no one to help us. There was nowhere to go.

We were in the middle of the mountains on snowmobiles. Where the fuck are you going to do? So her sister said, we headed up to the main gate and saw my uncle Randy, who was coming to the cabin. Oh, God. I just picture Randy Quaid and Cousin Eddie, and I just picture him, ah, with his robe open, his boxer shorts on, dumping sewage into the thing. Ah, how y'all doing? Clark, is that you? This fucking, Rolf, is that you?

That is a beaut, Clark. That sure is a beaut, snowmobile Clark. She is a beaut Clark that sure is a beaut snowmobile Clark she is a beaut Randy Zorn is his name Uncle Randy so he's by the gate on the main road he just arrived for the holiday visit he's there for the festivities when he sees

the sisters fly by him on snowmobiles and he waved but the girls ignored him because they didn't want to act like they knew him, so the guys would shoot him too. So they pretended it was some sort of neighbor or something, you know, inconsequential. So Randy says, quote,

I seen the snowmobiles come up the trail, and I'm reading word for word. This isn't, I'm not making it more country. I seen the snowmobiles come up the trail, two snowmobiles, and I go, look, there are my nieces. I knew it was the girls with two people on the back and i go wow they got boyfriends and what else would you think i don't know i'm coming up for a visit i haven't seen these kids since last christmas who

knows that's a terrific thing though that's that's uh shit hope well he says quote i walked over shit hope well he says quote i walked over and tried to greet him and say hi and i waved my hands in there and they just drove by me and i go hmm that's weird that's not my nieces they don't do that to me like maybe i mistake maybe it's their friend maybe they brought friends who knows i don't know so trish said i saw my uncle my uncle had pulled up and he waved at us we just kind of looked at him and turned back. And the man said, who was that? The man behind them said, who was that? And somebody that must live up here being nice is what they replied.

I don't know. Somebody lives up here. Who knows? Probably just going around for the holidays. Who cares? You know how you just murdered people and burned? That's not typically how people behave up here. This is the opposite.

He's got cookies probably rather than guns. His wife baked something. Yeah. And by the way, the guns they're holding is a.44 is what Deli has. Oh, boy. And a.38, a snub-nosed.38 is what Von Taylor has. Two-point-sized revolvers. Oh, yeah.

Those are big calibers. Those are no fuck arounds there. So Trish went on to say, I knew his life could be in danger, Uncle Randy. I knew if these men knew Randy was our uncle, they would have probably killed him. So she said in a nearby parking lot then they forced the girls off the snowmobiles and into the family car. That's what they did. They went off. They ditched the snowmobiles and into the family car. That's what they did. They went off. They found this.

They ditched the snowmobiles, get into the car. She said, when we reached the family car, they had two guns. Each of them had a gun. The dark headed man loaded his gun in the trunk, like put it back there. And as he loaded his gun in the trunk, he pulled his jacket open and he had a knife. And he looks at me and goes, don't worry. I'm just as good as good with a knife as I am with a gun. So don't think you're going to, you know, doing that.

So they get in the car and pull away. It's a Lincoln, by the way, the car. Big old Lincoln. Back in the 90s. There is no small Lincolns in 1990. They're all big. Yeah. So the car drives past their uncle as their uncle was trying to go catch up to him

to talk to him. The car drives by that. What the fuck? If you didn't think it was us then, it's certainly us now. It's now our car. Yeah. And Randy said, and then I seen the Lincoln come out across the street and I go, well, there they are again.

Yeah. Jesus. It's cousin Eddie mixed with Ernest mixedest, mixed with fucking Jim Varney. He said, I was walking up to the car and they were pulling out. And they seen, I was actually looking in the back and I think I seen Linnaeus in the back. And Randy said, and I wave my hands again and I go, stop. lanae said i knew that if i were to uh call out or plead for help or act like we knew randy that randy would be shot as well so he was waving his arms and my sister and i just pretended we didn't know who he was brilliant smart i mean that's good of them so randy goes the car just

drove right by me yeah i knew something something was wrong then i didn't think it was a minute and i seen another snowmobile come up with this person on it and i look and i go he has no coat on you know no gloves no helmet no shoes no no shits by the way it's 20 below zero dad is on a snowmobile shot in the head and i go who is this i go oh my god it's my brother ralph what the fuck he's a that's the toughest man alive wait till you hear what he did it gets better he says and his face is just huge and full of blood and just big he's been shot twice in it yes it's big yeah eyes swollen shut blood sickles because it was cold oh jesus he was in real bad that might have helped stop the bleeding actually yeah that might have frozen yeah might have slowed it uh he was in really bad shape and he says've been shot. My wife has been killed and my daughters have been kidnapped.

No mention of the mother-in-law. You notice in there at the end, he was like, oh, my mother-in-law is dead to you. But really, we need to concentrate on other things. Sir, you're you've been shot. That's for fuck sure. Let's get you a doctor twice. Well, this is we'll go back to Randy here. You've been shot. That's for fuck sure. Let's get you a doctor. Twice. Well, this is, we'll go back to Randy here.

Randy said, I start heading down the canyon as fast as I could. I'm in panic. Rolf's in the back full of blood lying on the back seat. 20 years ago, because this was, he's talking in 2010, he says about 1990, your cell service didn't work up there. He had a cell phone actually. Right. And he said whatsoever in that canyon and i kept trying and trying and trying and there are two things on my mind save

the girls and get him on a life flight that's a lot you thought you got out of the car i'm gonna go i'm partying up in the cabin this weekend this is going to be great next thing you know you're in a race for your brother's life while chasing down your kidnapped nieces this is has gone way crazy in five minutes holy shit james bond movie that's what i mean this has turned into an action movie um so the temperatures like i said 20 below zero um it's absolutely insane so uh he's still chasing this guy so Now back to the murderers and what they're doing. They're driving with the girls to the family with the car. And they proceeded on a Highway 189. And Randy ends up coming up behind him.

Uncle Randy on the case. You caught him? You caught up to him? By accident. He just was going that way trying to get down the hill. You can hear Dukes of Hazz You caught him. He caught up to him. By accident. He just was going that way trying to get down the hill. You can hear Dukes of Hazzard music playing as he comes up behind him. There's dirt clouds spraying everywhere. Here's what Randy has to say. I come up to the back of the Lincoln. I know the girls are kidnapped. I know the guys have got guns in the car there. You know, I'm going, what do I do? Do I run them off the road? No, you don't. No.

And then at that moment, my mobile kicked in. He got a signal right then. I got 911 on my mobile, and she says, tell me what direction they're going. We got police. We got people in the area. I go, well, they're turning on the road. They're toward Camas. Camas?

I don't fucking know what town that is. C-A-Y-M-U-S? Yeah. Don't really care either, everybody. I go, I need a helicopter, and the phone went dead. The phone went dead. A helicopter? I need a life flight for happy shot in the face. Oh, okay.

Got it. Follow him with a helicopter. One of them Blackhawks, too, making something impressive. Give me a Huey. I don't care. I'll chase him. I'll pay for whatever it costs. He said, I pulled into the gas station, went over to the pay phone, and got 911 back on the phone again.

And I go, guys, I need a helicopter now. So he called the cops. Now, back in the car, Trish says, we notice a cop car pass us and turn around fast and begin to follow us. Both men began to panic. I remember looking. The speedometer's going over 90 miles an hour. She's running 90 in a Lincoln. Doesn't feel like it.

Not in a Lincoln. I mean, it's smooth, though. You feel that? Them bumps just feel like you're riding on a cloud, don't they? Real pillows. Real pillows. So that happens. She says, we turned right down toward the canyon

and went another mile or so and then fell. The car fell off an embankment. So they kind of fell off to the side of the road in a little ditch there. I remember looking up because the car was at an angle and noticing the entire road above us we came down was full of maybe a couple of cops, but mostly people in common clothes drawn down with pistols and shotguns and rifles at us.

Oh, street. The whole fucking mountain. The whole neighborhood? Everybody heard. Everybody came out of their houses with their shotguns and pistols and their robes and shit to attend to the situation. Bunny slippers and a fucking 12 gauge. Fucking wild, right? and pistols in their robes and shit to attend to the situation. Bunny slippers and a fucking 12 gauge. Fucking wild, right?

And I just, I remember how amazed I was that there were so many people there so fast. Linnaeus said, there was cops pointing guns at me. And my little sister says, no, that's my sister. And I don't think they'd received information that there was even hostages in the car. They didn't know what was going on. They thought they were just all together. Um, so Trish says, I reached back for my sister's hand and grabbed her hand and said, duck. Well, and they said, we both ducked and we were praying and just squeezing each other's hand. We've always had a connection, even as little children, a special connection. We can feel each other. She's always been a great comfort for me. Well, why were they ducking?

Because when they hopped out of the car, Deli had his gun. Pointed at them. Deli had his gun aimed at Deputy Coleman here. So another cop, an officer Fowers, showed up and started bucking shots off in his direction. So bucking toward all four of them. Good God. So that's why the girl said duck because there was bullets flying around. Yeah.

And then after the shots went off, that's when Deli didn't get hit, but he got the shit scared out of him, threw his gun to the ground, and surrendered. And surrendered, yeah. So both the guys surrender at that point. Okay. Linnaeus said the men were down on their knees with their arms behind their neck, and the cops were yelling at them, telling them to get down and get down and surrender. And I started yelling at the cops to kill them.

I said, kill them. They just killed my mom and dad and grams. Kill them. Shoot them now. Kill them. So Trish said, I remember feeling of not necessarily being safe but I've survived we're no longer in the custody of those evil men and Randy Zorn said the helicopter showed up pretty quick actually and they got Rolf out of there out of the back of my blazer and got him

into care and he was in pretty bad shape critical condition when it lifted off i'm just praying that he makes it so trish said i can't imagine what had to be going through dad's mind dad's head after he'd been shot and then shot again bullets are going through his head two of them two of them uh then he's laying there playing dead trying to breathe as shallow as possible here's what he did you want to know how he got out of there? More than anything. They left. Once he heard the snowmobiles pulled away, he popped up. Okay.

One of the shots was birdshot they hit him with. Oh, shit. Lucky. So he got lucky. All right. So he only has one bullet and one birdshot. So he's doing a little better than he could have been. But he's still fucked up, bleeding everywhere. And he's fully soaked in gasoline.

As he gets up and tries to leave, he catches on fire from all the fire around the cabin. So he goes up like a fucking candle. So this man is now walking around with bullets in his face on fire. He runs to the shower to fucking douse himself with water to fire out. Then stumbles outside with a face wound. Was just on fire. Gunshot wounds to the face. T-shirt.

No helmet, gloves, sleeves or shoes on. Gets on a fucking snowmobile. And rides two miles. Rides two miles through negative 20 degree weather with blood sickles hanging off of him to rescue his kidnapped daughters. This is fucking awesome. A man. That is awesome. Wow.

Holy shit. Trish said, having the strength to get on that snowmobile and race down that mountain to save my sister and I. How much blood he lost. He couldn't see. His face was swollen shut. Getting down the mountain in freezing temperatures. My whole life my dad was my hero. And that just put an exclamation point on it.

I would say. This dude's awesome. I would say he's the best dad ever. Fucking A. Jesus Christ. And Linai said, my dad was the most amazing hero that I've ever known. Beautiful, kind, blue eyes. He was extremely kind and generous in every way.

So police arrive at the cabin now to go figure out what happened back there. Because I said there's people shot back there. So, of course, a rookie deputy is the first to get to the scene. Of course he is. Of course it's a rookie deputy is the first to get to the scene. Fantastic. Of course he is. Of course it's a rookie deputy. And he described the scene as, quote, looking like a mini war zone. I'm sure. Yeah.

So he said, in the garage, there was a 12 to 18-inch puddle of fresh blood. The blood was frozen solid by the sub-zero temperatures. And that's what he was trying to start the other machine probably. Yeah, well that's the puddle of Rolf's blood. Yeah. The first deputy described the smell of burning hair and clothing

as he began to walk through the cabin as well. Oh, God. Yeah, that's Rolf. As they continued to search the house, they discovered that the top floor was still on fire. Yeah. Yeah. As they continued to search the house, they discovered that the top floor was still on fire. Yeah. Yeah. So they were like, oh, shit. And I have pictures of that, too, by the way, of the fire.

They found... They said it was horrible. Blood was everywhere. The living room carpet was so drenched with blood that it pooled on the wood planks underneath. Oh, my. All the way through. The oozing blood formed icicles where it leaked through the cabin's floorboards i have pictures from the basement of blood sickles coming from the

from the ceiling which is the living room floor it's fucking i'll put it up on social media it's disturbing disturbing um they said the crime scene photo of the painted outlines detailing where the victims were found blood they found that. Bloody drag marks led to the – that's where they went and found the victims finally. They followed the blood. They said that after they killed them, they dragged them across the living room floor and out to a deck. They put them outside. Outside.

Outside. Yeah, you can see they have the marks are on snow. The tape, the crime scene tape is over snow. Yep, you can see they have the marks are on snow. The tape, the crime scene tape is over snow. They covered them with a blanket and snow to hide them quick so nobody would come across them right away. They said there was evidence everywhere. They even found a bloody shoe print that belonged to one of the guys out in the garage.

Fingerprints everywhere. They did nothing to hide what they were doing. It was a terrible crime. Also, they said Summit County Detective Joseph Offrit said that in addition to this, these crimes, there were 10 other break-ins discovered in the cabin complex up there. They said, we have reason to believe these guys spent a considerable amount of time in that area. We know they did. They were there for about a week and a half.

We know they did. They were there for about a week and a half. So Rolf is transported by medical helicopter to University Hospital, where he ends up being in good condition, gets himself out and released in time to go to the funerals for his wife and mother-in-law. He's at the funerals. That's fucking insane. What a tough man. This guy is, I mean, wow. And the daughters didn't know he was alive the whole time. They thought he was dead, and all of a sudden, here's fucking dad.

It's like, that's crazy. So, yeah, he was released there. Jesus, man, this is harrowing um later on quest they asked ralph the distance he was shot at the second the second shot that was fired he said it was very close range the plastic wadding from the second shell was stuck in my head unbelievable that's how close range it was that's close yeah so when they search house, they find maybe the most disturbing thing of this entire deal. Bloodsickles and all. They find videotapes, Jimmy.

Okay. Now, they said about evidence, one of the officers said, the number one concern in this particular case is rescuing anyone who might need assistance. They didn't know what happened. Secondly is to preserve the evidence at the crime scene. So they find a video camera. Inside inside they find a videotape and we're talking in 1990s vhs camcorder here okay they said we had no idea what might be recorded on that so they said you know they thought it would just be the family stuff they said when they played it all they could say was oh my god oh my god oh my god holy shit

they watched the tape and there is some of the family on there later on but what they find is delhi and fucking von taylor they use the video camera to video themselves sitting in the cabin hanging out opening, opening their Christmas presents, Jimmy. They were opening. I seen the foot. I'll show a picture on social media of it, of Von Taylor holding up a book, like one of those big baseball card books full of baseball cards, or football cards. He's holding them up.

And then he unwrapped one of the kids' presents and is showing the football cards to everybody piece of shit i saw a pro set dan marino in the middle i remember seeing not a bad card not a bad card so these pieces of shit are so casual just opening up presents and oh what do you got there nah baseball cards opening up and show them hold it up dude he's like showing them then they just like talk about what baseball cards are worth are these worth anything i don't know or listen that which ones are worth stuff and they're like talking about how the baseball card fucking market works at the time it's fucking screaming it's screaming great there's baseball card shops all over the place so these idiots are filming themselves. I mean, this is as cold as it gets.

Just waiting for the fact they were just made themselves at home. Dude, they ate food. They cooked food and ate it. Knowing what they're about to do. This is extra, extra spit. It is disgusting. One of the patrol deputies said you know hundreds of crime scenes later it still ranks right up there it's still very vivid to me probably when i got about 10 feet from the

door i picked up a faint smell it was kind of like burnt hair and maybe burnt fabric like clothes burning and then he found the garage as well sir what have you seen? Since then, shit, hundreds of crime scenes. If this still ranks right, this should be by far and away the worst thing you've ever seen. He's seen dead babies, Jimmy. Yeah. He's seen people kill their babies. That's what it is, I think, right there. I've heard of drug addicts that put their baby in the microwave to dry it off. Yeah, you never know.

After a bath. Jesus Christ, I can't imagine. So, oh never know. After a bath. Jesus Christ, I can't imagine. So, oh my God. He said, this guy at the scene said, as I started up the stairwell, I could see holes in the walls, bullet holes coming from one wall across the stairwell into the other wall. There was blood smear on the wall. It looked like a bloody hand and had wiped down the wall.

That's when he called it a mini war zone. He said there was two bodies. I checked for a pulse, but I knew in my mind they were deceased. I actually walked into the smoke before I realized that the top floor of that cabin was on fire. Then our mindset was to protect the victim's property because we thought the cabin was going to burn down. On top of the coffee table, there was a VCR camera and some tapes. That's the they snatched.

Yeah, the camcorder. Lanai said about this, quote, I remember thinking of the pure malice and hate that these men must have in their hearts. What heartless jerks. Why would you do this to our family? Yeah, this is just, let's be the worst people ever. Let's be like movie villains. Let's just do that.

Why are these people so evil? That's what they are understated with heartless jerks but yeah i get it yeah um lenai said maybe she's a nice person she's not gonna call them cocksuckers like us that's all she seems nice yeah a little better it sounds more on the money but she's sweet so she's not gonna say that she actually her statement was um they asked her okay did von seem to be in control of everything was he bossing dave around or i don't know why he's dave now he's edward stephen deli i don't know where dave came from but they're calling him dave over here i don't know old dave old dave whatever davy deli over here was he bossing that him around or were they both doing it? And Lanai said, no, Dave was the bossiest one, but Vaughn was like the one that did everything.

Like he did the shoot. He did the shots. He's the cold hearted fuck, yeah. But there's 44 slugs and people too, so they both did. Also, they said that Deli said this, They kind of backed up the same story here. So Lanai said, Von Taylor and Ed Deli very much each took their own separate part in murdering my mom and Grams. I do not feel one man in any way, shape, or form was more responsible. Taylor was an evil man.

He had no remorse, no regard for life whatsoever. And he's the one opening the presents and doing it in a really shitty way. You could see it in his eyes. You could see it in his continence. From the moment we saw him to the last time we saw him in court, he just had this air about him of anger and zero remorse. Yeah. Yeah. She, her official statement was she observed the shooting from five feet away.

She said that Taylor carried the 38 caliber. Deli carried a 44. She believes that Deli fired shots from the 44 while Taylor fired shots from the 38. And the bullets recovered at the scene analyzed by the crime lab said that the most serious injuries, likely the fatal ones, were caused by the 44. So, Deli was the one who did the most damage here. They said that showing that six 44 mag bullets were recovered from the bodies of Kay and Beth or under the floor under the body. So, he pumped six shots into them,

and only two.38 caliber bullets were recovered. So Taylor did the first bang, bang, and then fucking Deli went through and dumped his.44, emptied it out into them too. Do you think he didn't want to shoot the dad because he didn't want to tip the dad off that his gun was empty that he didn't have any bullets that's possible maybe he that's he refused to do it maybe he said i can't and they were because i don't have bullets rather than saying i'm out of bullets which would make them

yeah that's a good point tip him off that he was that he's empty and he could probably kick the shit out of both of us yep very much the tougher man here i i would say i don't i would not want to fight ralph no god no at this point he's a bad bad man um they said that uh um the uh i'm sorry it appears that from the crime lab report that mr delhi inflicted all three gunshots on mrs potts so they're saying that her thing was she said Taylor shot the grandmother, but it's not his bullet in her head. It's the.44. So it must have been Deli. And among all this confusion, and your mom just got shot,

I could see the whole thing being a blur at that point. Bullets tend to move really fast, too. You can't really see which one's come out of which gun. Yeah, and there's gunshots. How loud a 44 is in a fucking enclosed room you wouldn't you wouldn't be able to see or hear the sound would make it blind so not that that's possible but you know what i mean you get it so the charges against these two idiots here they charge them on christmas eve of course uh the eight first degree felony

counts including first degree murder aggravatedated arson, aggravated kidnapping. Yes. Oh, and also Deli pointed the gun at deputy Coleman was also charged with aggravated assault for pointing it at the cop. What do you think they're fucking? Where did, where are you going to go? That's what I mean. You're going to butcher these people and then just snowmobile off and no one's going to

notice where you, how, how you leave in footprints and fingerprints and you're not butcher these people and then just snowmobile off and no one's gonna notice where you how how you leaving footprints and fingerprints and you're not gonna make it taking their vehicle which is a pretty good connector to them and snowmobiles yeah you're not going anywhere you're on a mountain you're in a 1300 person community and yeah and every one of them know what happened you're in trouble and they know that that's not your car. They know whose car that is. They know that that family, they know what's up over there. In the middle of that weather? Yeah, where are you going, bro? What are you going to do?

This is not a good plan. Head to Mexico. That would have been a good plan. This is not a good plan. The Summit County Public Defender, which in the newspaper, Jimmy, you got to roll your chair over. I got to show you this. Look at this typo in the fucking newspaper. The Pubic Defender. The pubic defender.

The Summit County pubic defender, Elliot Levine. The pubic defender. It's in the news. Just don't misspell public, please. You can tell he's a pubic defender, this guy. He sounds like a bad wrestler. The pubic defender. He comes in.

He just face fucks everybody. He has the most hair. You can just see his big bushy fucking pube mound. The pubic defender. Big old mound of pubes under there. God damn it. These gotta be furious. This guy deserves to be called the pubic defender because he's a fucking idiot.

We'll talk about it. Pubic defender Elliot Levine tried to get four of the counts dismissed against Taylor, citing significant missing links and evidence. Sir. Here's a link in evidence that they found. Put it this way. Apparently, from the cabin, dipshit Taylor called a buddy of his, Scott Manley, who's still at the halfway house. He called the halfway house that he escaped from. From the house.

From the house. Doing this bad stuff. Yes. Very smart. He called. This is wild. Yeah. The phone records, so we know what happened. According to phone records, the call was made from the cabin on the 22nd to the Fremont Correctional Facility where Manley was being held.

So it wasn't even there. It was at the prison. Manley said he when the cops talked to him, he acknowledged he got the call, but refused to disclose any contents of the conversation, immediately invoking Fifth Amendment rights and fear of, quote, the snitch jacket treatment in the prison system. So he doesn't want to get stabbed. He doesn't want to get put in PC. He doesn't want any of that shit. He just wants to live his life. He said, I'm in prison. It ain't worth it.

I like being alive. That's what he said. I don't want to run around in the blue jacket, the one that says stab this guy. Stab me now. He did submit to a taped interview with the Summit County Sheriff's Department detective I'm wandering around in the blue jacket, the one that says, stab this guy. Stab me now. He did submit to a taped interview with the Summit County Sheriff's Department detective, Joe Offrit, four days after the phone call and the tape. And they end up playing that tape in open court. So it doesn't matter anyway.

On the tape, this guy says, quote, he said he was going to shoot some people. He said he was going to waste them all. He said he wanted to kill some people because this is before the shooting he called him just like hey what's up dude yeah i'm just at this house yeah getting ready to kill some people i'm gonna waste them all i'm gonna waste them all yeah fuck this fuck christmas christmas he's he's like dan akroyd in trading places now, taking a piece of salmon and eating it through his beard. Salmon through his Santa beard. That's beautiful. So he wanted to kill some people.

Taylor is going to plead guilty. That's his strategy. Plead guilty. Wow. Okay. He figures because the death penalty is on the table. Yeah. He figures because the death penalty is on the table. So he figures if he pleads guilty, they'll probably go easier on him and let him not have the death penalty, even though he keeps saying he kind of wants the death penalty, which is weird. Quickly on his psychiatric thing here, he'll talk to somebody and they will cite his history of suicidal ideations, mood swings, and referral for mental health treatment at the Iron County Jail.

And they said his psychological testing revealed him to be extremely paranoid and borderline schizophrenic or depressed and suicidal. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers

at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law,

her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars. Kelly Marie Tran Chinook is available exclusively and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. There's no fix in this one. I did not really. concluded that, quote, the random property destruction in the cabins around Oakley and the destruction of human life itself in itself,

a level of violence sometimes seen with head injured or somewhat brain damaged people. He just likes to break things. He's like a 12 year old. James, the next step to what they did is rape and murder. And yes, they had two people who they were absolutely going to, right? How eventually, I'm sure. For sure, right? But, I mean, how much did you expect that the first thing they were going to do was rape those girls?

I was afraid that it had already happened and they had it videotaped when you said, guess what, they found. Oh, okay. No, no, no, no. That would have been terrible. But, no. That's where they were going. He never touched the girls sexually because they didn't have time. It was on its way, I would. Yeah, no, no, no. That would have been terrible. But no, that's where they never touched. Never touched the girl sexually because they didn't have time.

It was on its way. Oh, when they got if they got to some clubhouse, that shit was over. Yeah. Now, the psychiatrist also said with testing his head that he presents no history of head injury that you can see now and no evidence for brain impairment other than some degree of learning disability and math and English. He's a bit of a moron, let's just say. So the other thing is, is he satanic? They asked. Is that part of it?

Because it's Utah. They really want to know. Is it Satan? The doctor stated that he did not assume all the statements made to him by Von Taylor and Mr. by Von Taylor and Mr. Delly were true because my evaluation was limited to determining Mr. Taylor and Mr. Delly's sanity at the time of the offense. It was not necessary for me to fully develop the truth or falsity of these

statements further. For example, although he may have dabbled in satanic cult worship, I'm skeptical that Mr. Taylor could have done this regularly on Saturdays for five years and kept his family unaware. Makes sense. I do not believe his statement that a three-year-old girl was sacrificed at one such ritual event to which he was invited but did not attend. However, he may have believed it.

My report reflects the statements made to me by Mr. Taylor and Mr. Deli but cannot be interpreted as offering an opinion on the truth or falsity of those statements. So this is what he said. I think it's bullshit, but don't hold me to that professionally. He says they meet Saturdays? Apparently they meet Saturdays, yeah. Well, they go berry picking first and then they have their satanic meeting because you got to have – well, then that way you have berries to eat while you have your meeting. It's nice. Always sacrifice a three-year-old. Yeah, they jar it up, make jellies and such. Because you've got to have berries to eat while you have your meeting. It's nice.

Sacrifice a three-year-old. Yeah, they jar it up, make jellies and such. It's really nice. Or maybe it's three-year-old sacrifice day. You never know. Are we doing jams and jellies? Oh, sacrifice? Okay, sacrifice.

I'm sorry. I'll go put my blueberries back. Save them for next week. Cool. Once Tom Hanks shows up. Yeah, it's great. So the sentencing is the big thing here he pleads guilty decides to have his saying because he can have it i guess it's his choice whether to have it his penalty judged by the judge or the jury at this point he chooses the jury okay over the judge he figures he can

lean on the fact that he pled guilty and hopefully get some strangers. Yeah. Yeah. They've seen less of his like background and records. The judge knows all this shit. So the jury is seven men, five women, 12 people. And we'll talk all about them because, oh, boy, is that fucking crazy. Now, when asked the day before a sentencing hearing started about it, he told the Salt Lake Tribune, Taylor did, quote, I'm pretty much able to go either way.

I wanted not sexually, but he said I wanted myself to get the death penalty. But my friends and my family and even my lawyer could not allow me to plead guilty and ask for the death penalty. That's kind of bullshit. He's tired of it. He said, I face the death penalty or life imprisonment. The death penalty is the easiest way out. It's the quickest. Keep that in mind.

He thinks the death penalty is the quickest way out. Until the end of the story, remember that. Let's talk about the jurors quick here. A few of the jurors. Keep in mind, there's only 12 of them. I mean, there's alternates, but we're going to talk about the main jurors here. Okay. One of the jurors, Joseph Jenkins, in May 1991, that year, he was the director of the Summit County Health Department. He's also a lifelong friend of Prosecutor Bob Adkins.

Oh, that's not good. And worked with Prosecutors Adkins and Christensen in the county office building. and Christensen in the county office building. The county attorney's office was the legal representative for the health department, as acknowledged by juror Jenkins, who said he regularly consulted with both Mr. Atkins and Mr. Christensen on ordinances. Don't worry. I can be honest. Totally cool.

They have just as much credibility as the defense attorney to me. It's fine. Despite this apparent attorney-client relationship, neither the court nor Levine, who as the defense attorney to me it's fine despite this apparent attorney client relationship neither the court nor levine who's the defense attorney asked any follow-up questions or sought to extend to probe the extent of the relationship this guy defender the pubic that he's so pubic this guy uh sits on the jury they let this guy on the jury. Gerald Chamberlain disclosed that she was a cousin to Judge Edward Watson.

She's the fucking judge's cousin. You can't have that. Who heard the preliminary hearing and that her son was married to prosecutor Bob Adkins' sister. Don't worry, pubic defender. You're going to have a fair trial here.

No challenge was made to remove her. She sat on the fucking jury. What a boner. This guy is the pubic defender. That's what I said. He deserves it. Fuck that. Good.

The newspaper probably knew more than we did. He's an absolute boner. Oh, you think that's bad? Two jurors? Well, juror Dennis Gunn. New prosecutor Adkins from being a lifelong resident of the county. Moreover, Gunn acknowledged that he had a previous attorney-client relationship with Mr. Adkins occurring just two years ago. No one asked another follow-up.

Sure thing. Let's seat him on the jury. That's three. There's only 1,300 people here, Jay. Fool me once, fool me twice. Fool me three times. Holy shit. How about four times?

How about fool me four thrice? I don't even fucking know what it would be. Fool me four times. For Christ's sake, I don't even fucking know what it would be. Fool me four times. Judge juror, our juror, Blaine Moore, worked with prosecutor Bob Atkins' mother at the LDS temple. Amazing. Moore, oh my God, Jesus Christ. He also expressed his belief in the doctrine of blood atonement, acknowledging anyone who kills must also be killed my god um so the

court other eight the pubic defenders brothers well only if my cousin could be on there too all right well then i'll have my neighbor he's a real nice guy i'll bring him in here you can have your brother this is so the court the or the prosecutor trying to save this guy as a juror said well because this guy was a mormon the juror the lds church doesn't accept does not accept the doctrine of blood atonement and uh this guy said well whether that is or not i think that you know that you should kill him he expressed frustration at housing guilty people in jail at his expense. He's a cheap bastard. And doesn't think that's right.

I shouldn't have to pay for it. These are your jurors. And the defense said, perfect. Seat him. He'll do. This is the jury pool. Just don't fuck this up. You've got the biggest scumbag on earth. The terrible things.

You have videotape. You have witness, eyeball witnesses. You have a guy who's going to come with fucking hole scars in his face talking about going on a snowmobile. Just get a seat of fucking jury. If you're the prosecution, get rid of those jurors. You don't need any in here. Just make it fair. Make it fair. A man who has freshly thawed blood sickles fuck me that guy's gonna testify today yeah so the jury pool

is so bad i don't know if this is the reason or not but on the opening morning of the penalty phase von taylor attempted suicide by slitting his wrist you can't blame him at all. Did you say that you, his sister? Jesus fucking, fuck this. There's no way. I am so fucked. Holy shit. So the medical examiner testifies. This is, I keep saying this is crazy.

This is the crazy part. This is so crazy what he says here. Okay. This, this happened in a court of law. Right. During the penalty phase, prosecution called medical examiner investigator James Bell. Bell conducted a portion of the investigation and gathered some of the evidence. In May 1991, Bell had accepted a job with the FBI investigating multiple murders and deaths.

Like kind of like Mindhunter style. investigating multiple murders and deaths. Like kind of like Mindhunter style. Near the end of the direct examination process, the prosecution, they asked Bell to rate this killing, because you've seen a lot of murder scenes and killings. He said, I got tons. They said, do me a favor, rate this one one to ten. What?

Okay, one to ten. What do you think he's going to ask him? 1 to 10, rate what 1 to 10? 1 to 10, uh... Like, seriously, what would a law prosecutor ask him to rate it? Like, cold-bloodedness? Level of blood, yeah. How much blood? Quote, grossness. How gross is this?

Now, you've seen a lot of gross stuff, right? I have, sir. Well, this is pretty gross too. How gross was it? Tell you what, one to 10 using the grossness scale. Tell us. How many grosses is this? This is the quote from the prosecutor. You've indicated that you've basically done hundreds of these crime scene investigations involving shootings. Mr. Levine has indicated that all shootings are gross. On a scale of 1 to 10, could you characterize how gross this shooting was? Ew, gross. Imagine medical examiners going through pictures just going, ew, gross. It's so gross in here i'm

it's just gross i can't do it guys how many ew's and yucks is this i give it i give it eight ew's that's what it is it's an eight ew um this guy said probably a nine it's a nine gross and they said why would you say that he says because it's a stranger to stranger murder, face-to-face shooting, and the victim sees it coming all the time. It's cold-blooded. It's fucking nasty shit. So why isn't there a 10, sir? Lack of jizz. Lack of jizz.

I'll tell you what. If they jerked off on Granny, like right on her perm, then I would have said, it's 10. It's a 10. It wins. But, you know But they didn't. That's got to be what makes it the lack of 10, right? If they had their way with Rolf out in the garage, I feel like that would be something, right? If I were that guy, I'd have to ask the follow-up, why not a 10?

Just out of curiosity. Why not? Now, Scott Manley, the guy who got the phone call in prison from Taylor. The non-snitch. The non-snitch. He's now in the Fremont. Oh, he lived there at the time. Now he's at a halfway house.

Okay. Oh, it wasn't. The Fremont Community Correctional Facility is a halfway house. Really? There we go. It sounds terrible, but it's a halfway house. So, Jesus Christ, the police go to Manley's room to talk to him to follow up about, they know, the phone call came. When the police entered his room, Manley, this is from the report, was, quote, observed with his pants down, looking at pornographic material spread out in his room and masturbating.

Morning, guys. i'm almost done well he agreed to speak to police yeah uh but he wondered if he would be in trouble for what von taylor what quote von taylor had done over the weekend so that's not good he knew about it and has his dick in his hand i swear on this dick what you're doing yeah right now they didn't say whether he stopped whacking it or not at any point in the interview we just kept going we'll let him finish up he's usually a lot more open to talking once he finishes so we're gonna let him finish up can i get you some something to clean that up with, son? So when Manley spoke with police, he was unclear about the date he received the phone call and thought it might have been the afternoon of December 22, 1990, which was the day of the murders. So that's when Taylor told him all about escaping, how they're going to kill somebody,

and how they were on their way to New York. That's where they were going. New York. New York? We're going to disappear somebody, and how they were on their way to New York. That's where they were going. New York. New York? We're going to disappear and all those people. Not to Mexico. We're going to go to New York. Just into a sea of people.

It's going to blend in. Tell you what. It's going to be in Times Square. Just blend it in. Never see us. Never see us. Right? Plain sight.

So they show the tape to the jury. It's a 10-minute videotape of them opening these people's Christmas presents and laughing and talking about the price of baseball cards. And it is not good for these guys at all. The judge permitted the tape to be shown over the objection of Levine, the pubic defender, who called it, quote, a ridiculous little tape. who called it, quote, a ridiculous little tape. It's just a ridiculous piece of incontrovertible evidence that puts my client directly on the scene with little respect for these people's time, space, or property. That's all. It's just silly. There's nothing to glean from this. This is all just a waste of time.

This is just damn silly. It's a smokescreen by the prosecution to frame my client. It's a smoke screen by the prosecution to frame my client. So Rolf testifies. Yeah. Can you imagine? The jury must have been like, oh, if you're Taylor, you just put your head in your hands. Oh, fuck. Jesus Christ.

This is fucked. So he said he arrived at the cabin that afternoon to find trisha uh with trisha to find the garage door open as he approached he saw lenay shaking her head like get the fuck out of here trying to yeah uh he said i saw there was something not right with her someone was holding her around the neck it was taylor so uh they talk about how you, Linnea and her mother and grandmother had arrived earlier, apparently surprising them. Rolf said that when the men saw him, they ordered him to strip. And then he gave up one hundred and five dollars from his wallet, gave them took off his jacket. He said then Taylor told Deli, go ahead and shoot him now. That's what Rolf said.

When the first man hesitated, Rolf said that Taylor attempted to shoot, but his handgun misfired. The second shot worked. He said, it hit me in the face and knocked me down. I knew I was bleeding and there was a lot of numbness. I laid there and tried not to move, which also very hard to do. Not grab at your face and try to hold it. He next smelled gasoline being poured over his legs and back and head. Jesus.

And then they shot him again in the back of the head. Oh, my God. He said he doesn't know who fired the second shot because he had his eyes closed. Well, I can tell you who it wasn't. Yeah, definitely. He didn't have any gunshots left. No, more. Maybe he had extra bullets.

I don't know. But it didn't seem like it. So, because he didn't fire at the cops either. Right. I don't think he had any bullets left. I don't know, but it didn't seem like it. So the, because he didn't fire at the cops either. Right. I don't think he had any bullets left. I don't think he, I think he spent them all and didn't expect anybody else to be here. I think that's what happened. Made him feel cool to still carry it.

Yeah. So the men with his daughters drove off on the snowmobiles. He said, I played dead and waited for the sound of snowmobiles to die away. And then he talks all about how he fucking dug himself up and did all of this. And they were like, Oh my God, this is crazy. Um,

holy shit. So, uh, the medical shit here, a licensed psychologist with a specialty in criminal psychology examined Von Taylor to see if he suffered from any neuropsychiatric injury found that he suffered from moderate to severe brain damage which has affected his ability to fully appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct or conform to the requirements of the law she concluded that

information contained in his in the pre-sentencing reports prison and jail records and files prior psychological information and information observed and noted by family members were sufficient issues in 1991 to raise the issue of brain damage as a possible explanation for criminal acts. Wow. Also, she noted that the first shrink that interviewed him was unaware of the head injuries and repeated exposure to farm pesticides. So this doctor went on to talk about how frontal lobe damage can be associated with violent behavior. Now, Taylor testifies too. He has to.

Yeah. Has to. You got to beg. You have to say, I'm human. Hi, look at me. I'm a person. I'm not a monster. Look. Oh, look. You know, see? see look i'm not that bad but you are and yeah there's there's a guy that used to be

a mormon three weeks ago and he made me do it he made me do he said his frat was really pissing him off and he wanted to kill a bunch of people so uh he gets on the stand and answers questions there um when the district attorney's questioning him he really doesn't remember some stuff and remember some stuff the da called it convenient memory lapses around things he said about this quote i remember pointing the gun at her talking about uh um k and beth but i don't shooting. There was so much noise and confusion I just don't recall. How do you forget that?

Yep. He denied that numerous statements that were attributed to him by either the girls or lots of other people you know he said I didn't say any of that. I didn't say I was going to kill some people. I didn't say I had to shoot this bitch twice in the head. Didn't say any of that. I didn't say I was going to kill some people. I didn't say I had to shoot this bitch twice in the head.

Didn't say any of that stuff. So when asked if he felt remorse or could offer an explanation for his acts, he said, quote, I'm sorry it happened. If I could change it, I would. They asked him about his punishment, and he said, I face the death penalty or life imprisonment. The death penalty is the easiest and the quickest way. Life would be life. I'm 26. The day I get out of prison is the day they take me out in a pine box.

26 years old. 26. He's fucked this much up by 26. Wow. So the closings, the prosecutor used the evidence over and over again. He talked about the grossness scale again. He said, if this man thinks it's gross, it's gross. It's literally what he was saying.

He got nine grosses. Yep. The documents say that he promoted Bell's credentials as a serial killer investigator and asking the jury to evaluate or compare the grossness of the conduct. Why should he receive the death penalty in this prosecutor's mind? Well, because it's the only appropriate option because Mr. Taylor might escape from prison. He could escape. Now, that's not a reason. You can't tell the jury that, though.

That's not a reason for the death penalty. I mean, prison might not hold him. That's not part of it. That's bullshit. How many people escape and are gone forever it's very rare especially from death row or from life in prison in a super max but he's not getting out he's doing that because this is an escape was done on an escape and but he was allowed to leave yeah but you can't skate you can't use scare tactics to yes

that's what i mean he could be in imagine him popping up in your living room after he escapes from prison. That's what he's putting out there, which isn't part of it. It's not a legal argument. So they said there's no evidence presented at the penalty phase hearing that Mr. Taylor had ever escaped from prison, that he ever attempted to escape from prison, or that he would be housed in a section of the prison where escape was likely or at all possible. It's true. They said it exacerbates the court's refusal to allow trial counsel to talk to the jurors about all this other shit because they talked about – they're talking about prison and whether – how shitty prison is.

Is it shitty enough for this guy and all that sort of thing. If you were a judge, wouldn't you feel a little bit fucking angry that the guy that's begging for the penalty in this case is telling you, basically, you can't even hold this guy? Yeah, you can't do it. I'd be furious. Who the fuck? Who can stay in prison? People just leave all the time. So you're saying our entire correction system is a piece of shit in the state of Utah?

This judge is impossible to hold him. Letting murderers go? Yeah. What's the point? Just let him go. Fuck it. Never mind. So the defense comes in and the pubic defender, Levine, the Supreme Court would later call this closing argument, quote, not a model of persuasive rhetoric.

So that's not good. I'm going to just read right from the document here levine began by telling a native american story about how death this is the every turn it's like well that's not oh that's the craziest thing that could happen there it is every single time let me guess He set himself on fire, then rode 20 degree, negative 20 degree weather with no shoes. Yep, that's crazy. Okay. This guy just watched Young Guns and he's like, that Lou Donovan Phillips is a hero. Let me tell you a story about the Indian guy in Predator.

Remember him? He'd cut the vine and drink from it. Man, he was cool. Anyway, there's a story about him a native american story he began by telling a native american story about how death came into the world but then failed to connect the story to his argument it didn't have anything to do with he told He told this big allegory, this big thing in the beginning, and it had no connection. It didn't pay off at the end and back what the Native Americans would say.

It wasn't a bookend. It was just a non sequitur. Here's a Native American story about how death came in this world. Anyway. Anyway, y'all try that McRib. It's good. William H. Bonney probably still alive, right? So, Jesus Christ, this guy is terrible.

Wow. It goes on to say, Levine never asked the jury directly to spare his client's life, although he did say that the killing has to stop somewhere. It's got to be less vague than that. It's got to be more specific. You've got to be less vague than that. You've got to be more specific. He's a real modern era Western movie watcher. He quoted Jason Priestley in Tombstone.

The killing has to stop somewhere. The Native Americans once said about killing, like, what? There's got to be some law. what they got to be some law he loves tombstone and young guns this guy imagine this is your lawyer you don't matter how much of a piece of shit you are you go this fucking guy really seriously that's why i opened a vein for christ's sake yeah he's like this i'm never gonna win with this fucking guy i'm crying i have tears coming out of my eyes this is ridiculous he told wow he told the jurors that balancing mitigating and aggravating factors meaningfully was extremely difficult if

not impossible but they had to do it anyway rather than give them a this is how you do it the meat this outweighs that so please spare my client's life those are the things you do this is the opposite he's like i mean i don't know how y'all gonna dig through it but good luck with that i don't know he emphasized that taylor himself thought his own crimes were gross and vile gross again um it's can we just say it's been adjudicated gross this entire thing legally gross uh he repeatedly reminded the jury that taylor like criminals generally do not think like you and i so you know don't try to humanize him and connect him to the jury. Hey, you look at him through a plexiglass window and like throw peanuts

at him at the zoo. You know what I mean? Animals don't think the same way. We just need air holes in the plexiglass for him like a cricket. I mean, we don't want him just to suffocate in there. That'd be boring. It'd be boring. You can't get him to do nothing. He mentioned, but did not elaborate on, the only mitigating

factors he had, were taylor's relative youth and clean record overall no nothing violent um overall this is the end of it overall levine did not give a virtuoso performance very terrible they just judged him as shit um he also said in his closing argument um that wow he is so fucking bad he said that his role his job levine said wasn't to get guilty defendants off he's like that's not my job i'm a defense attorney instead the public defender said he said his role was to help guilty people admit wrongdoing and live with the appropriate punishment which is what absolutely not how the legal system works at all that's actually your vendor would ever say that why did he say that that's actually the opposite of your

job right your job is to advocate for a defendant period right evidence be your advocate for this man it's the only way constitution that's it that's it i don't care who it is i don't care if it's john wayne g. You got to have a fair. You get a trial. Everybody gets a fucking trial where somebody, anybody is sticking up for them. You have to have it. Get them to admit in a tone. What?

That is bonkers. That is fucking bonkers. He also summarized. This is amazing. He summarized an episode of Law and order to try to compare it to this as well law and order fucking tombstone wasn't out yet at the time it was 92 or 93 yeah yeah it was tombstone was like 94 so yeah i think so so he he's quoting other shit he's quoting other shit. He's quoting young guns. He's telling Native American stories. He told the jurors, he quoted a character on the show describing her legal obligation to do whatever I can to get my client off, she said, on the show.

Levine told jurors, quote, in my opinion, that's a bunch of bull. Instead, he said his job was to get guilty clients to admit their wrongdoing and live with the punishment not there's no way this sticks whatever happens so the sentence comes around here uh now during the sentencing these jury members who all know the prosecutor and go to the same barbecues on the weekends probably it was told the jury foreman said they barely talked to each other during the trial. The one guy said, I assure you, there wasn't one occasion that a juror brought up the subject of the murder before deliberations. We talked about the weather once they get in to deliberate.

They said after exchanging names and employments, the jury spent roughly an hour and a half in open roundtable forum, taking turns expressing any emotion or bias they harbored during the testimony. He said there were 12 people in the room. We didn't know each other and we soon realized the responsibility and therefore had a very open discussion. They said that they had all the guns, they had the exhibits, transcript of witness testimony, outline of the criteria. They spent the remaining three hours trying to get a full vote and a consensus. Okay.

Now, they come back with a consensus and a sentence. You, sir, may fuck off death penalty. Of course. Which is lethal injection or firing squad. It's a, it's a, you pick them on here too. You, you pick. So the juror, Dick Andrews,

the foreman of the jury, um, you pick as in you get to choose which one you want or them. Taylor. Okay. So you pick, yeah, this is a,

this is a player option on this one. This isn't a club option. Yeah. So choose your own death adventure here. Um, so yeah, he talked about the emotional testimony of the girls and the wounded Rolf and the tearful, you know, the whole thing. It's very dramatic. There's living witnesses, which is difficult. That's tough to overcome. He said once we got in the process, we were very definitely able to eliminate all personal bias. Actually, it says eliminate. There's no.

Yeah, this paper blows. So, yeah, all four of us were focused. They did it and they charged him to death. So he chooses at a hearing that week to die by lethal injection as his choice rather than the firing squad here. He just said, quote, lethal injection. That's all he said. They asked him if he wanted to say anything else.

He said, I ain't got shit else to say. Okay. Send me back. Deli goes to trial. Wow. Okay. During the trial, when Lene's on the stand, they really are grilling her about when this bullet came out or that.

They're thinking if she doesn't know exactly what happened, then they can trip up her story and say that the other guy did everything. You know what I mean? So, Lene says, quote, I felt a great burden. I felt like they practically wanted me to be able to see the bullets coming out of the guns, that they expected me to point the exact gun in the direction of every bullet and where it hit at any given moment. Because they were putting the murder weapon in her hands. They were like, well, which was it, this one? And making her hold it, which is scaring the shit out of her.

What? Yeah. She said, hmm, I actually just had a whole epiphany of new thoughts come to that, that I don't think that that was helpful for a victim to have to put a weapon that they watched their family murdered with to even have to touch it. What is the point? The weapons are already on the table. Why would I have to touch it. What is the point? The weapons are already on the table. Why would I have to touch it?

It's disgusting. Wow. Trish said, these trials were somewhat of a blur to me. I was 16 years old, and I wanted to go back and live the life that I loved and not have to keep reliving a nightmare. Deli's lawyer argued that he didn't do any of the shooting. These men were guilty. They committed a crime. They needed to be be punished and we needed to move on trish said i remember uh

watching the look on delhi's face as he came in seeing my father like oh shit yeah and it was very apparent to me that he did not know my father had survived and the look on his face was just priceless like he had been defeated my dad survived we won that would be like oh my god oh jesus he's alive and he knows a lot um the one cop said he's lucky they used the wrong gun when they shot him uh they used bird shot very ineffective on the one shot they didn't know that i think his odds of having made it and survived an incident like that are probably one in a thousand yeah going through the snow if his brother wasn't there he probably would have died in the snow they likely checked the chamber to make sure that there was five in there and they closed it and went on their way no i didn't expect anything yep um they uh he's he's up for first degree murder but they're talking about maybe, you know, whatever.

So the verdict comes in. He's convicted of second degree murder. They get him for death penalty off the table. This is one holdout juror that would not vote for first degree murder because of the death penalty. So they had one juror holdout. It was 11 to one. So now it's only second degree murder and life in prison is the biggest thing he can get. So the judge says, members of the family who have testified at this trial in this courtroom have certainly demonstrated tremendous strength and courage, but their lives have been changed forever.

You have stolen from the children the love and guidance of their and from Rolf, the companionship of his wife. And there are many other victims of this crime as well. Sons and daughters, brothers and sisters. No one likes this poor mother-in-law. Yeah, he didn't. Didn't even mention her. Old bag. Like, what the hell?

She's a person, too. What about grandma, you dick? No, fucking grandma got run over by a reindeer. Don't worry about her. That's what it was. She didn't even get shot. She would have been run over by a reindeer. Don't worry about her. That's what it was. She didn't even get shot. She would have been run over by a reindeer anyway. Who cares?

All the loved ones these two ladies have suffered greatly and will continue to suffer. Indeed, in a sense, I think we are all victims because this is kind of a senseless violent crime or violent criminal conduct that decent law-abiding citizens must now walk our streets in fear, and now we must be fearful within the walls of our own home. So, I have searched this record carefully and everything that has been submitted to me for some sign on your part of genuine remorse or regret for what has occurred, for some sign of genuine sympathy or compassion for the victims in this crime, and what expressions I have seen, in my opinion, have come far too late and are far too unconvincing to have any mitigating effect on your sentence goes through you, sir, may fuck off five years

to life. Again, Utah with the window. Yeah. So what they do is apparently there's some sort of board that you go for in front of for this to determine the length of before you get a parole hearing on this type of thing. And they said, quote, this board orders you to spend the rest of your natural life in prison without the possibility of parole. We've decided now you'll never be ready. Bye bye, asshole. without the possibility of parole we've decided now you'll never be ready bye-bye asshole he gave him life without on a five to life on a five to life because they they decided we're gonna go with the life part of it you'll never be up for anything we don't want to talk about this ever again bye

yep now after this sentence barbara noriega who's Kay's sister, mom's sister here, she said she begged the parole board to keep Deli in prison for as long as he lives. She said he has no social conscience now. He will never develop one. Give him no more chances. He's had his chances. And then when she heard what happened, she said she was thrilled and said it's the best they could have done. So there you go. Said she was thrilled and said it's the best they could have done. So there you go. Then she said, Jesus, I don't believe we'll ever be able to enjoy Christmas again. Our family's hearts have been broken. We've been brought to our knees.

Yeah. Yeah, Christmas is every year the same thing now. It's fucking brutal. Her brother Ken said that, which is also Kay's brother, said that even if it takes the family generations, they will use every means available to ensure Deli and Taylor stay incarcerated until they die. Yeah, I would say. So Deli writes a letter to Lene for prison. Do you read that if you're her? Well, there's what she says.

That's what I mean. What do you do with it? I think she has a normal reaction that anybody would have. She said, I went through trying to find happiness in areas where happiness doesn't exist. I went through fear, fear of putting my heart out there, fear of loving someone or letting someone love me that they would abandon me. I believe it was in 2001. I received a letter from Delhi. I thought about it for many, many years and would go to write him a letter and it just never felt right. It took me over nine years to respond to Deli's letter. She said, I held on to the letter and I reread it probably 20 or 30 times. I basically wanted to get a feel if he was truly sorry. I was very careful and guarded with my feelings. Deli has shared with me that he has grown into a man, not the same evil boy that committed the crime, as he put it. I believe that I gained my freedom back for myself choosing to forgive Deli. For me, forgiving does not mean forgetting.

But yeah, he's in there forever. Fuck him. Let him go. It's over for him. I do not believe Edward Deli has a place outside of prison. But when I came to the place of forgiveness, I felt a tremendous burden of relief off my shoulders. I felt free. So she said when asked about the letter, her sister said he played upon our spiritual beliefs, which I felt was horrendously blasphemous.

His letters were quite obviously sociopathic rhetoric. So different opinion. Claudia Goetz, who's Beth's grandma's other daughter, said she responded to the letter despite her belief that Deli is the more dangerous of the criminal pair. She said he's in so much denial about the incident that he's very dangerous. For his own sanity, he needs to tell the truth about his involvement. For my own sanity, I will find some way to forgive. I personally don't feel hate.

I feel pity. You're pathetic is what she said. I love that a lot. Good for her. You're pathetic. This family is a great family. I mean, they have really great attitudes. Now the family sues the state.

They sue Utah saying that Taylor should have been violated for going in the gun shop. But the state has a certain immunity clause to their thing, so that's not going to go very far. But I think it's mainly for publicity so they get their heads out of their asses and try harder. Because they said if you get in their pocketbook, you get their attention and maybe some things will change. So they said our biggest intent is to let the public know what the state has done. The money is totally secondary. I think these people do just fine. Yeah, I'm sure.

At minimum, you're getting them to monitor who they have out on the whatever that fucking whatever that fucking parole you know what i mean the yeah role you got to keep a better eye on them now 1992 by then by the end of 92 the family has moved on ralph married finds a new wife and gets married again really he finds it yeah that's he's of that era of like i don't know how to to make food. I need to find, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know how to work the oven. I literally need someone. Lanai married in April of 92 and moved to Billings, Montana. Trisha started her freshman year at BYU that year. So they did all of that.

Rolf said, we're going on with the pieces that are left. He said, but the family's permanently changed and tainted, obviously. Yeah. So Taylor's going to appeal this shit, obviously, based on his terrible fucking lawyer. His terrible guy. By the way, his lawyer, this is what he says. This is fucking crazy. This is what he says.

This is fucking crazy. Mr. Levine, the pubic defender, expressed a general misunderstanding about the necessity of consulting experts in court. Instead, believing that all experts are guns for hire who will say anything to support the party paying them. Well, if the other side has them and you don't, then what does that tell you? You're unarmed he also explained that he oftentimes view uh he his view is that oftentimes on it's unethical to pay an expert to back the defense theory wow he's not a defense attorney that's what he is he's just not as an example he referred to something called uh quote called the quote his grandmother didn't bake him chocolate

cookies defense for not consulting experts in this case. Then he said later on, back in 1990, trial counsel was not aware there was any such thing as a mitigation expert. What? Are you kidding me? He said, now I know about it. Five years later, now I've heard of them. But back then, I didn't even know you could have that. In 1996, Levine was suspended from practicing law for three years

as a result of his stupidity one and his simultaneous representation of james holland and von lester taylor holland was a double murderer who was on death row as well by the way um who he defended at the same time he was defending von he was doing two death penalty cases at once can't fucking do that as a public defender. By the way, they also weren't paying him shit. They were paying him $7 to $9 an hour to do this in the end. What?

Yeah. So he thinks, Taylor says, I should be able to take my plea back. We should be able to start this all over again. And they went, I don't think so. You don't want to do that either no you're not taking your plea back that's all but they did say that levine did not thoroughly explain all the charges the evidence or the possible ramifications of anything uh wasn't in on any

of the strategy didn't know what the fuck they were doing uh they paid the summit county's public defender one thousand dollars a month and gave the lawyer an incentive to resolve cases quickly through guilty pleas instead of trials because he's getting paid on a monthly salary, not per case. That's why he thinks it's his job to get them to admit guilt and then move on. Yeah. Yep. Cut bait and go. So it's pretty weird. Yeah.

Yep. Cut bait and go. So it's pretty weird. They said that Taylor, during this whole thing, says he doesn't want to be there. Doesn't want to be at the hearing. Not interested. They talk about his pay, all this shit. Oh, God, his pay.

He said, though, he said, quote, to me, you keep track of time when you're. Oh, that's right. He says he didn't keep track of the time. He doesn't know hours. He said, to me, you keep track of time when you're concerned about money, and I wasn't concerned about either. He said, I never took more cases than I could comfortably handle. Wow. The severity of these cases, though, is extreme, sir.

It's death penalty. You've got to be all in. When asked about the number of cases he'd taken to trial, he responded, I don't keep scorecards. I do a job. I do what's needed to be done. I did it that time, and I don't keep scorecards of wins, losses, trials, and settlements. I do a job. So he said the same thing twice is what he said without anything else really. Yeah, this is fucking ridiculous.

This guy's a moron. They talked about – it's really all about Levine. It's crazy. This, this, the pubic defender, it's, he said that, um, um, at one point he said that quote, yes, I was lying to the jury. If you want to say that, that's what I was doing. That was closing argument. I was trying to sway a jury to prevent them from imposing the death penalty.

I was manufacturing a scenario. Um, yeah. So that's what he was saying. They're talking about his closing. Why did you talk about that kind of shit? He said, I had to dissociate myself from what I felt the general feelings were regarding defense attorneys. And he wanted to draw attention to Taylor's decision to plead guilty instead of demanding a trial. He said, I want them to applaud that first step and then maybe cultivate some sympathy. That's what he's trying to do. And then not give them the death penalty. That's what he's working on.

2004, Von Lester loses his last round of state appeals as Judge Frank Noel. Is that perfect or what? Judge Noel is going to fuck him for a Christmas murder. Judge fucking Rudolph Donner Blitzen told us. Yeah, he has federal court appeals left, but they tried to say that his case was like two others. But the judge disagreed. Now, Rolf, after the fire, Rolf rebuilt the cabin. What?

He said, you're not going to fucking change us. No, he said, you're not going to change us. We're going to rebuild it. We're going to come back here every fucking year. We're going to come here. We're going to be open presence. We're going gonna be the happiest bunch of assholes this side of the nut side of the nut house or whatever clark said yeah he had

a full christmas vacation meltdown we're going here we're gonna have fun god damn it um the sister said he made it better than before they still go to the cabin and enjoy it with their friends and family by the way tons of quotes came from a 48 Hours episode where they interviewed the sisters. It was very helpful. So they said that the murderers didn't take away the things that they still loved and they still enjoyed their lives, and they called the cabin magical and healing. Yeah. Lanai said, for me to be a survivor has become a beautiful gift.

I believe that I can share it with others. After the cabin burned, we went and rebuilt it and made it even better than before. I can remember my dad. He would say this to me quite often. He would say, Lanai, I know lightning strikes, he says, but lightning never strikes twice in the same location. And I would find great peace in that. Sometimes, if I would ever have fear, I would just hear my dad say,

you're going to be safe. And you listen to him because, you know, he's the toughest man ever. Yeah. Her sister Trish said, it's fabulous. We love it up there. We actually go up there and enjoy family and friends. They're not going to take this away from us,

the things that we love and we enjoy in our life. They took our moms and our grams, but that's where it ends good so um yeah 2008 rolf dies of cancer oh god damn it that sucks he's like 80 years old too but how awesome is that he's almost no he's dead 70 70 but yeah that's that sucks but yeah at least he did they didn't kill him it wasn't like residual anything wounds of that and they said his last like two months were spent a lot of time at the cabin and the whole family was with him and it was very nice. 2016, there's a Utah death row inmate, which is Taylor. He is now saying that he is innocent and should get a new hearing because his case was tainted. So yeah, he said um but

they disagree the prosecution side the state says he said every time i kill someone it messes with my head and he pointed to his big fuzzy head he's guilty yeah that's what they said 2020 a federal judge disagrees because he vacates the guilty plea and the death sentence of von lester taylor who obviously should have been going there and has to go through the whole thing again the u.s supreme court's admonition that an attorney's strategic choices should be accorded great deference is tempered by the requirement that the attorney's decision about the need for or scope of the investigation should be based on informed legal choices. But Mr. Levine was not informed when he advised Mr. Taylor, and he made little to no effort to become informed.

There was no articulated or conceivable strategic reason for failing to hire an investigator and experts in a death penalty case. So conviction vacated. in a death penalty case. So conviction vacated. The court decided that if Taylor had gotten more informed advice, then he would have probably gone to trial instead of pleading guilty. And so he should be able to pull his plea.

The record shows there's a reasonable, reasonable, reasonable, reasonable, reasonable probability because reasonable, reasonable probability because I know the probabilities right there that for trial counsel's failure to investigate Mr.

Taylor would not have pleaded guilty now 2021 is the state appeals the appeal and the 10th Circuit US Court of Appeals in Denver reverses the lower courts decision and threw his ass back on death row.

Wow. Fuck you. Reinstated. They said Mr. Taylor does not deny he actively participated in the murders. To answer the question of whether he can be actually innocent of the crime, he cannot. Mr. Taylor is not innocent in any sense of the word. You, sir, may continue to fuck the fuck off. Eat all the dicks um what the fuck

yep lenay's got uh some kids tricia has some kids now they've had relationships their aunt who wasn't even there wrote two books about the whole thing murder death and re and rebirth which is kind of about the family after it happened. And then her other book is after losing, Oh, this is like a novel after losing her savings in a Ponzi scheme, a claim personal empowerment specialist, Claudia Nelson reveals practical and unique solutions. Oh no,

this is an actual how to book that pack a real wallop and transforming life's challenges into a blessing. There's religion involved demystifying such, such topics as who gives a blessing. There's religion involved. Demystifying such topics as who gives a shit. There we go. So that is Oakley, Utah. Oh, boy. And that's one of the craziest goddamn motherfucking stories we've ever told,

if I do say so myself. There is a lot to unpack there. He got the chance to die of cancer. Good for him. I i know good for him wow what a tough son of a bitch he got to enjoy the next 18 years anyway you know what do you want to bet he kicked the shit out of cancer for a while too good oh i'm sure he didn't just give up i doubt he gave up he at least tried you know that much about ralph so if you like that tell the world about it honestly get on get on Podcasts or whatever app you're listening to.

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Lots of them. Specifically, everything from morphine to meth to fucking you name it. It's all out there. We're going to talk about what Hitler's doctor was injecting him with, what Goering was taking. It's a lot of shit. What they were giving the troops. Everything. That is patreon.com slash crime and sports.

And you're going to get a shout out here. Well, you know when you're going to get a shout out. Wait, follow us on social media first, actually. We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook. That said, Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who, you know what, would never come into our cabin, open up our Christmas presents, and shoot us in the head with.44s while setting us on fire. Jimmy, hit me with them right now. This week's executive producers are Jordan Bennett, Nikki Giri, Russell Whitley, Carl Kinsler, Erica Allen, Crystal Gennaro. Hey, Crystal.

Larry Butterfest. Hey, Larry. Alex Hopper. Chrissy Jane. and Jennifer Sellers. Thank you so much for being a part of this. We can't do it without you. Other producers this week are the Schittstein Institute for Higher Learning, Happy Hour in Shreveport with Grandma, King Kong Mosca, Augusta Wynn.

What is it? Angelo King Kong Mosca. He's a wrestler. There he is. Toby Flenderson. Brandi Huntley. Janice Hill. Laura Blakeslee and KC.

Barbara Bocater, I think. Sarah Poilart. Pia Lutert. Megan McDermott. Grant Molina. Melissa Gruger. Robert Roger. Roger Marty.

Lacey Bueller. Buller, probably. Samantha Evans. Summer Powell. Grace, nope, that's Bryce. Bryce McArdle, Mark Smith, Mary Crimus, oh, Merry Christmas, you diggity, no all stickity, Elise Perrin, Bill Hayward, Stephanie Idalski, Andrew Vanover, Jessica Olson, Jamie Paquette, Nicholas Sanchez, Michael St. George, Samra Skenderegic, Kate Disney. I hope you're one of the Disneys. That would be probably not beneficial for you.

I don't know if there's much money in it anymore. Maybe there's some stock. You might have some stock that got sold. Fucking Eisner guy. ABC or whatever. I don't know. Hope you get some ESPN money. Emily Sauliti, Tara Carr, John McQuilkin, I think, Kyle Wagoner, Lee Wright, Jen Johnson,

Kevin Sampson, Turd Ferguson II, not a junior, just the second. Will Aronson, Hillary Cartwright, Vincent Pirandonzi. Pirandosi. Oh, shit. Hey, Pirandosi. How you doing? There he is. Tamara Moore, Felix Padilla, Loretta Hurd, Heather with no last name, Melissa Cartwright, Chelsea Weichen, Jacob Newton.

Kelly Mata. Jennifer Craig. Cry Gund, I think. Amber Springston. You just missed Springsteen money. It's Springston. Brutal. Almost.

Almost. Next time. Ryan Fredrickson. Maria Hards. Tammy Stilt. Tara Stein. Telly McCune, I think, Kimberly Silas, Graham Buchanan, Lisa Laggard, Bryce Walrath, Katie Sheldon, Rob Bomber, Lauren Egger,

Brandon Hodges, Grace Dornan, Brianna Gollum, Kendra Birchfield, Tamara Henley, Ethan Beatles, Kendra Birchfield Tamara Henley Ethan Beatles Cheryl Gridleach Christina Lizaraga Sarah H. Arsenic Catnip Chloe with no last name Jeff Harris

Tarnia Manning It might be Tanya Probably just Tarnia I may have misspelled it Susan Oldfield Gwen Valines Squiggle Wiggle Nadia

Nadia? Neda Neda Britt Susan Killich. Jude Tarbox. Ew. Tarbox? That's like your butt, right?

Tarbox sounds like an insult for either one of your halls. One of your halls. Pick one. I really like your Tarbox. Lana Sand. Back that Tarbox up over here, sweetheart. All right. I'm going to put my tongue in your Tarbox.

Oh, my tongue in your tar box. Good. I'm going to tongue fuck your tar box. Sorry. Julie T. Grantley Morrison. Thank you for giving us money. May as well. Whatever you want.

Oh, God. We're out. Joshua Henderson. Helen Willits. Helen Gardner. Also ISD for Freaks. Triz Dog, Diana Carr, Christopher Lankford, Alice Hadley, Jessica Swanson, Carolyn with no last name, Emily Smietkowski. No, that's Smiet Satansky. Abby Burbridge.

Yep. Carol Anderson, Megan Garcia, Jennifer Sellers, Danny Perdue, Rick Habib, Brittany Hall, Brooke Hessen, Pamela Christensen, Joey O'Malley, Matt Richardson, Sheldon Vaca, Rich Muldoon, Paul Hanratty, Cara Pritchett, Pritchard, Vin Chan with no last name, Erica McCormick, Victoria Smith, Joshua Thorne, Rob Myrick, Heather Ellis, Vincent Battle, Elisa Eliza, Weeb Wybie, Callie DiMazzo, Isabel Rios-Torres Padilla, Blake with no last name, Carolyn Emerson, Nurse Ratched, Brian Mueller, Derek Logan, Patrick Embry, Peter Owen, Laura Dawn Heyman, Abigail O'Dell, Don Stewart, Jared Tiny Fisher, Laura with no last name, Rob Taylor, Kyle James is rad, James. Andy G., Thomas Larson, Molly Salamanca, Mike Mark, Mark Allen Dunkley, Melissa Peterson Martinez, Ralph LaGuardia. Is that real? Was that the mayor's name? Fiorello. Was that the Ralph's? Fiorello.

Oh, Ralph Fiorello. Fiorello LaGuardia. Is that the person was that the ralph oh ralph fear fiorello laguardia is that the person that's not this person the mayor no that guy's dead he's been dead for 60 years probably i wonder if they're related gary martin gary martin trish nelson nielsen uh daquan daquan gerald gerald gerald probably joshua berry Nicole Horan. Oh, boy. David Lennig. Count DeMonnette. Jeremy Moore. Will Wadd.

Will Wadd? Jesus Christ. That's a porn star name. Lauren Shuckle. Yeah, my Wadd. Right in your tar box. Will Wadd, your tar box. Kenneth Scott.

Kenny Kenyon. Kiki would know last name, Lucifer would know last name, Crystal Hill, Chris with a K, Tripp Sheehan, Linda Berry, Pamela Smith, Rachel Laird, Molly would know last name, Nicole Klassenhoer, Sam Evans, James Swindler, Craig Walsley-Grace, Trucker Woman 70, Trotter with no last name, Brandon Henning, Stacy Pfaff, Bethany Remillard-Ion, Ian with no last name, Jordan Johnston, Alicia Webb, Jono Cooper, Alan with no last name, Stephen Kelly, Bob Bob, Matt with no last name, Oren Steck, Mark R., Matea Richmond, Chrissy Jane, Leanna Chapman, John Alexis, Green-Eyed Jolie, Dan Nasham, Green-Eyed Jolie, Dan Nashem, Jamie Kozer, Graydon James, Jennifer Eck, Duncan Lindo, Andrew with no last name, Tommy, Tammy, T-Rex, Sandra Seidensticker, and all of our patrons. Obviously, you're fucking amazing. Thank you.

Thank you, everybody, so much from the bottom of our heart thank you for what you do for us and what you do each and every week and uh each and every goddamn day thank you so much you make it happen you want to follow us on social media you can head over to shut up and give me murder.com links are there everything we do there's links to it on there so you can find it all over there check it out keep coming back week after week. Make sure to listen to Express. And Crime and Sports is staying. Listen to Crime and Sports.

More compact, lots of crazy comedy, lots of crime, lots of fun. That said, holy shit. Until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.