Small Town Murder - #356 - The Projection Transfer Theory - La Grande, Oregon

Episode Date: January 28, 2023

This week, in La Grande, Oregon, a man threatens to cut a woman's head off during a conversation at a local bar. By the end of the night, a different woman, who looks very much like the first woman, is found dead, with her head nearly removed with a hatchet. When this man is interrogated, the local police do some of the strangest, most hilarious, and just plain terrible questioning that leads to a confession, using a technique known as "projection transfer", and told the suspect that he just might be a magical person!Along the way, we find out that not all music festivals are created equal, that you shouldn't threaten decapitations in public, and that if you know where the murder hatchet is, you probably used it to murder!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay!

Choo-choo! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us all aboard the murder train, pulling away from the station, punching your ticket. Let's do this.

We have a crazy story for you. up sit down and this is it's all one quiet car so let's do this before we get to that quickly shut up and give me murder.com is where you get your tickets to live shows and we have live shows have been added new ones uh seattle there's an extra show we're there in march and there's a friday show. Now there's also a Thursday night show. Same venue. And then the next night, after Seattle, we're in Portland on Saturday, and we added an extra show there, too. Early and a late?

Early and a late show. And those will be different shows, too. So you want to see the early and the late? They're going to be different shows. Shut up and give me murder.com. And Cleveland is our first show, February the 10th. Kick it off right, Cleveland. Let's do this.

Represent Ohio. Come out for us. We can't wait to see that. You're doing terrific so far. Let's finish it up. St. Louis is sold out. There's like singles left here and there. So if you want to come alone, there's places you can do that.

Definitely. Patreon.com slash crime and sports. Do that. Definitely. All our bonus material there. Do you get every other week? You get two new episodes. Crime and Sports. Do that. Definitely all our bonus material there. You get every other week, you get two new episodes. Crime and Sports, this week you're going to get, we're going to talk about fantasy sports,

how it became such a huge thing and the cause of most of the divorce in America. And then for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about Kai the Hatchet-Wielding Hitchhiker. And if you know about him, you'll want to hear about it. And if you don't, guy's name is kai the hatchet wielding hitchhiker so that should be enough for you right there shut up yes that is uh patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of that and a shout out at the end of the regular show that said let's get to this jimmy i think it's time to sit back clear the lungs when you say deep breath here. I don't care where you are now. It doesn't matter where you are. If you're at the park with your children, I want you to climb to the top of the highest jungle gym type apparatus and scream,

let's do this, Jimmy. What do you say?'s go on a trip shall we okay we are going out west here we are going to oregon oh baby we're going to oh all the way out there we're going to la grande oregon la grande oregon that's not lagrange uh no i it's all i can think i've had zz top in my head for two days It's one of the best songs ever written. It's so good. That riff is incredible. It's all that's been in my head for two days. The second I read the town name,

it popped right in my head immediately. And I was like, son of a bitch. Yeah, but not when it's stuck in your head for days at a time and you can't get it out. It's on a loop. It's not bad. It's moving me along. I got to say that anyway. It puts you in an up mood.

It's pretty short, too, which is a bummer. It's like three minutes, two minutes and 40 seconds or something. I want it so much longer. It's so good. There's really no words to it. It's just. Get some more choruses and lyrics to this. Yeah, it's just fun.

It's a fun song. So this is a northeastern Oregon. This is not what you think of. If you think of Oregon, you're thinking of wet and that sort of thing. This is not that. This is more dry. They have droughts out here and shit. This is a different place completely.

It's populations 13,399 people here. Median household income $40,750. Median home cost is about $206,000 also. So it's a more affordable place. There is a school here too. The Eastern Oregon University is near here. So that's where you get kind of most of the people. That's a lot of these are kids. Yeah. And that it's got a nickname here.

The hub of Northeast Oregon. So, yeah, I don't know what what else is there. It seems like there's not a lot going on up there. So it's a hub unto itself. So a little bit of history of this town. hub unto itself so a little bit of history of this town the first permanent settler in this area who you know came from somewhere else was benjamin brown in 1861 and then um not long after some other people came the town's original name was brown's fort brown's town or brownsville nothing brown we will brown brown town oh brown town that's not good brown's town uh there was already a brownsville so they ended up calling it legrand because some french guy who was

here said that's the way he that's what he called it to describe the scenic splendor that it was before him okay so yeah so they let a french guy name it so before before there was a post office though there was a guy named william curry who would charge 50 cents a letter to carry the mail on horseback from the nearest post office which was in walla walla washington that is steep as fuck isn't it pre-1863 shit yeah that's like 50 bucks to have your thing delivered that's that's what it costs now yeah this is 160 years ago so that's insane that is so expensive never mind rich he had to have been what's a dangerous ride too i think through there so legrand had a factory for processing sugar beets or into raw sugar and um they came from nibbly oregon the beets and then they would you know do it there

so really yep i swear to god and that animal i we did find out that animals do eat them and they come from a place called nibbly nibbly eat your nibblies which is how animals eat things yep but not beets because they know better probably because they're disgusting so well they eat sugar beets. No, I know. Do bears eat them? Probably to get energy, I would assume. Catalogy does?

Yeah. I don't know. Animals eat them. I know that. People chewing on coca leaves type of deal for them. So, Livability.com had a list of the 100 best small towns in America and it's number 60 is Legrand. So, it's on there.

Reviews of this town quickly here. They're different. There are some ranging reviews. Let me tell you something. They really go run the gamut. Five stars will lead off with positive. Love LeGrand. Right in the mountains.

Smaller city but has plenty of stores and shopping available. Lakes a few miles up a mountain top in a few different directions. Beautiful town and great people. So, shit, I mean, that's glowing. That's glowing. Fantastic place, James, and the people are great. Yeah, here's two stars, not quite as great. It's pretty dry up in this region with over 60 wildfires in Oregon alone right now.

It's hard to breathe. Everyone has come into Rite Aid, where I work, to buy allergy medicine because they cannot breathe. While we do have a lot of trees, it is still very dusty and dry. And you have to have a lot less. Yeah. Here's two stars, very specific. These are one of the very personal reviews here.

Two stars, basically, if you ride a bike, you will most likely get hit. What? People are aiming for you, apparently. You get points in this town for picking off bikers. Basically, if you ride a bike. Here's two stars. This might be, I don't know what the reason for this would be. When the street lamps go off when you walk underneath them, it's a problem.

That's the whole review. punctuation no anything it sounds coded almost it's like a russian it's like a coded world war two message the street lamps won't turn off if you walk under them it's if something goes over them because that's where the photo lens is right i would i have no idea they're supposed to come on when you walk under them or near them i would imagine if they're if they go on and off if they're sensors but as you walk under them they shut off sir you may be cursed i think it's just there's german submarines off the coast of massachusetts is what that really says i think we've just completely decoded it um the street lamps coming off that's because that's the whole review of the town i has to be that's the code here's the town. The Germans are invading. It has to be.

That's the code. U-boats are coming. U-boats. They're everywhere. They're surrounded. Boston is surrounded. Here's one star. Now, they hate this place.

Avoid at all costs. Lived here most of my life and wouldn't wish it on anyone. Wow. The geographical isolation of this place slowly takes your soul. People don't make plans. They quit bettering themselves. Their highest life goal is to be some ranch hand or truck driver, and the boomers capitalize on this. The entire town is run by a handful of families who only hire within.

The majority of the town makes less than $35,000 a year, and your entire social structure slash future employment will be dictated by which church you go to. It's impossible to overstate how bad this place is. Nepotism run amok. Yeah. It sounds like a small town. Yeah. That's what they are. Things to do.

Not a lot, let's say. No. The Eastern Oregon Country Music Festival. Okay. Yeah. Well, it started last year. Oh, let's say. No. The Eastern Oregon Country Music Festival. Okay. Yeah, well, it started last year. Oh, it's brand new. It started in 2021, was the first one. They had a little under 200 people there for that.

Okay. Now, this one, they're going to do a two-day event. They're making this a two-dayer. Under 200 people is enough to be a success. That's a success. And they said at this point, a couple days before the 2022 show, they had sold more than 290 tickets.

They were pushing 300 this year. So they're doing... Well, listen to the acts that are going to be there. First of all, there's a rodeo and a semi-truck contest. I don't know what that means. It's the most semi-truck I've ever seen. Look at it.

He has an eagle painted on the door. Now that's a semi. Best hood ornament? I don't know what that is. That's a very strange contest. That's very strange. I don't know. It doesn't say. It just says a contest. Here's the musical acts. Friday,

Ava Rowland, Michaela Marie, Wade Aylit, and Robert Henry. Those are the four. I don't think they're famous. Saturday's lineup includes Rowland again. Oh, she's back. She's back.

Cheyenne West, Randy Woody, and Ned Ledoux. Oh, unless he's related to Chris. He is. Scratch this whole thing. Amanda Hampton said Ledoux is the son of the late singer Chris Ledoux. Oh, shit! She said, quote,

they're really good. He has his dad's original band. He sings his dad's songs and some of his own. Get out of here! Tickets are $43.35 for one night, $80 for two days. Oh, my God. Chris's kid demands that much money? Get the fuck out of here, Ladoos.

I will dig your dad up and bury him again. That's ridiculous. No. That's it. That's Steve as fuck, man. Now that we're angry about this festival, I don't know. Let's talk about a murder. What do you say?

Let's do that. Let's do that. Before I make another one. I was going to say, because I could go down a rabbit hole with this. We could talk about what a semi-contest is and all this shit. I'm upset that just because he came out of Chris's balls, he's getting that kind of money. Yep. Well, that's the first thing the organizer

amanda hampton said was that guy you know he's the son of chris ledoux and he's got his got his dad's band i'm sure they're spring chickens now really jumping around the stage how old are those people they gotta be in the 80s that's what i mean they're all sitting in chairs playing so a lot of slide guitars on this stage. Oh, big time. It's only because their fingers don't work anymore for chords. They're just sliding around. I don't even know how that works, so whatever.

It's just sitting in a chair with the little fucking thingy-o over here. What if they just do like a Jeff Healy where they just lay it on their lap and play it like it's some kind kind of upside down part because they're blind it's a it's a guitar on a table and you've got a little slide and you just pluck and finger and and there you go slide that little guy around until you make the song guitar turntables almost yeah we'll do that so let's talk about this murder because we could talk about that forever let's talk about a young man first of all here okay an upstanding fine young gentleman named bart otto cochran yeah so right away two heavy simpsons names your part on auto right off the bat so that's distracting three very old names is what they are bart otto cochran he's 20 years old uh in 1983 he's born in 1963 or 1962. I can't remember here.

He is an assembly line worker. Here are his stats. I'll just run down. He's got three major points of importance here. Well, here we go. Assembly line worker, local scumbag, ADIQ. Oh, so boom, boom, boom. We'll just put that the assembly line worker, great. He's

got a job. Good for him. He's known as just a local scumbag that goes around to the bars and annoys people and whatever. People know him, but it's like that guy. And he's got an 80 IQ, so take out of that. He's like eight points higher than Gump. So you can extrapolate that what you will. February 11th, 1983, he decides he's going to go out and have a good time tonight out on the town in La Grande. You know what I mean? Go out. He's going to go to the bars. He's going to maybe pick up on a couple of chicks. You know what I mean?

Have some, yeah, check out the semi contest. Put his vote in. It's very important that everyone have their say. Yeah, check out the semi-contest. Put his vote in. It's very important that everyone have their say. So he decides to go to My Wife's Place Bar. That's the bar.

That's what it's called? My Wife's Place. That's the name of the bar. I like it. That sounds like you know what the inside of that bar is. Yeah. You know there's Hank Williams on the fucking jukebox, it sounds like. Yeah. A sad song. That's a real... You know that's Hank Williams on the fucking jukebox, it sounds like. A sad song.

That's a real... You know that bar, man. It's dark in there. I love when bars name their bars, the owners name them something that's like, they say it in casual conversation, you don't know what they mean. That's the whole point of it. I'm going to go by my wife's place on my way home. Yeah, I'm going to go over to my mom's basement on the way.

I got to get out. I got to stop by there quick. Oh, okay. I believe there's boxes or something. I think there's one called the gym where they say, I'm going to stop by the, you know what I mean? I'm going to stop by the gym on my way home. Yeah.

Like strip clubs called the library. Maybe they used to have those all the time. That was very popular. I guess I'm at the candy store. Every college town has a library strip club and we had the candy store in North Phoenix, which was – Yeah. So he's hanging out at my wife's place, and he's getting shit-faced there this night.

All right. Decides to get good and tanked. It's been a long week on the assembly line. Got to get good and tanked. The waitress here, the cocktail waitress for the evening, the server, her name is Dana Lynn Dumars. She's 20. She's slinging drinks. Dana Lynn Dumars.

And she's 20. She's slinging drinks. She's working as the waitress that night, but she's not waiting on him. She's also there, but she's like the main waitress there. But she doesn't wait on him. I guess he's going up to the counter getting his own drinks and that sort of thing, up to the bar. So she's just doing all waitressing duties over the course of the evening now bart here he sits for part of the evening with a woman named patty stroud okay so it's him patty stroud he's trying to hit on patty stroud he likes her and he's also sitting with two dudes

as well uh he didn't come with them but he's hanging out with them i think i don't know if he knows them works with them whatever this is ced if he knows them, works with them, whatever. This is Cedric Page and David Trice. So three guys and a lady at the table and he's trying to hit on this woman and he's getting shit-faced and, you know, that usually goes not as well

as it could go. So some other guy, it doesn't look like Patty Stroud's too into him, so some other guy starts flirting with her as well. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. And to this, he gets angry, Bart. Sure.

But he doesn't get angry at the guy who's flirting with her. Like, hey, what are you coming over here trying to emasculate me talking to a woman I'm talking to or whatever his beef would be. He gets mad at her for it. Because she gives him a chance to say his piece? I don't know she exists and doesn't want to fuck him i think is his main anger someone spoke to you you should be ignoring that person you have a vagina and you don't want me to have to be any part of it i think is his main issue right now that's a hell of a grievance to have but that's a grievance there's really

nothing you can do about it that's the thing that's one of those where you got to take the l and move on move on to the next most attractive girl that you find in the bar you know what i mean that's and go on down the line or the next one that's more intoxicated that's either that's that's this guy's game yeah shit faced with an 80 iq yeah that's his game i think so one can't understand everybody in here who's who's drunker than me and that's a real hard one to find he's like i shit never mind fuck i'm the drunkest person here i feel bad for anybody that's born uh five or ten years before us because they don't understand what this was back then do you know what i mean like bars now we're not like this anymore oh yeah

yeah it's it's it's uh it's a different vibe than it used to be. Because you have to protect the women because, number one, it's the non-horrible human being thing to do. Right. And number two, bars businesses depend on women being there. Yes. Because it doesn't matter if it's the worst place that a guy doesn't want to go. If a bunch of women are there, they'll be there. It's awesome.

Guys will be there, too. They don't care. So you get women. That's why they have have ladies nights and all that shit yeah because there's tons of dicks out there we don't care about that we need women so guys and when you could smoke in there everybody would just be in this bar all night you don't go outside for no you're just in there at all there's no clocks it's like a casino in there yeah the whole the whole the whole sitcom is just happening for fucking 12 hours. Straight. No cuts.

Yeah, it doesn't stop. It's a whole season in one night. So Bart gets mad at Patty and begins to call her several abusive and horrible names. Calls her a bitch. Calls her every name you could think of. Then grabs her by the face. Grabs her face. Like, you know, if someone grabbed your cheeks real hard and pull grabs her like that and tells her that he is that she is, in fact, a bitch. Yeah.

And he is going to cut her fucking head off. Cut her fucking head off and starts describing how he's going to cut off her fucking head with his knife. OK, the other guy that was hitting on her. It's his turn to earn it. Well, he he then turned to his friend Cedric Page there, who he apparently knows half decent and says while he's holding Patty by the face and says, tell her, said, tell her what I do to bitches. Oh, my God. and says tell her said tell her what i do to bitches oh my god so there's apparently a known history of him doing violent things to that his friends are aware of so i mean that's a vouch for me is what he's saying tell her that i'm a threat um so he ends up uh the other cedric

page rather than saying yes uh he will cut your head off. I've watched it before. He instead says, hey, buddy, come on, Bart. Let's just go outside for a minute and cool off. Let's not cut anybody's head off right now. The night is young. Maybe at closing time, but not now. It's still a lot of rounds to get.

You know, it's still a lot of rounds to get. So finally, at about 2.15 a.m., Stroud leaves the bar with her boyfriend who's at the bar. So it wasn't even her boyfriend who was hitting on her. It was she walked. This guy, Bart's trying to hit on her, obviously. Some other guy's like, oh, I'm going to hit on her, too. And Bart gets mad at her even though she's there with her boyfriend. That's how nuts he is. This is a weird night.

What the fuck is happening? This is a weird night at the bar, man. This is down, down, down. Maybe I don't feel bad for people who didn't get to see this. Good God. This was a wild time to be. Cheers made it like they romanticized the bar experience. Because no one was ever drunk on Cheers.

That's why. They made a rule. They made a rule for them never to be sloppy drunk on purpose. I've never seen a Cheers thing play out. It's always a fucking nightmare. Absolutely. And that's a nice environment. It's still a nightmare.

There's like a psychiatrist that hangs out there and, you know, an accountant there, a mailman. This is some scumbag with an 80 IQ who's threatening to cut women's head off in a public place. This is insane. This is a fucking bar. So 2.15 a.m., like I said, Patty leaves with her boyfriend, Brian. They leave the bar and they go across the street to the Long Branch Tavern. Let's go where this guy isn't, I think was the general deal here. So then they end up seeing Bart at the counter over there up at the bar.

So they're like, oh, Jesus Christ, whatever. But they don't have any contact with him. They don't talk to him. They just see him. They're like, oh, boy, watch out for him. Keep an eye out. He's an asshole. So about 45 minutes later, Patty Stroud and her boyfriend, Brian, leave the Long Branch in Patty Stroud's pickup truck.

Okay. So a little while later, we don't know, 15, 20 minutes later, whatever, Bart leaves as well. He takes off and leaves the Long Branch now. So a few blocks down the road is where Patty Stroud's pickup truck breaks down. Oh, no. It breaks down. It's just near. It's a couple blocks from Candy Cane Park.

And we will have a lot to say about Candy Cane Park at the end of this. Stay tuned until the very end because you're going to want to hear about Candy Cane Park. So I guess they, Patty and Brian, the truck broke down. They're looking at it. They can't do anything to fix it. So they start. They push the truck toward the park. And after a while, they're like, okay, I don't know how much further we can push this truck.

We got drinking. Three o'clock in the morning. Yeah, after a night full of drinking this is it's literally 3 30 in the morning and as long as it's out of the lane let's just walk yeah out of the street is good and probably we should not be pushing this truck when a cop comes by and you know we're all hammered pushing a fucking pickup truck it's not gonna look good so let's just to be a nice man to hell yeah let's leave it here so um they do that they push the pickup truck then they'll just leave it they're like fuck it and they walk past the park to an apartment complex that's just beyond the park where her boyfriend's patty's boyfriend's cousin lives so they're gonna go there um as they as they're walking that way they pass dana dumars the waitress from my wife's place yeah they pass her walking the opposite

direction oh so she's walking toward the bars again okay okay which is interesting. So she's walking there. Now, Stroud, Patty, she's unable to rouse. They're unable to rouse the cousin. It's the middle of the fucking night. They're banging on the door drunk, and he's probably like, I don't think so, covers over the head. I don't care who it is. I'm not putting up with this shit. You go fuck yourself.

I got up at 5 this morning. I'm not doing this. Deal with your truck tomorrow, Patty. It'll still be there. We don't know how drunk he was before he passed out either. We have no idea. He could be rolling over going, that's tomorrow's problem. I don't care.

This is okay. Or just snoring away. That's fucking hilarious. So Patty and Brian separate at this point. Looking hilarious. So Patty and Brian separate at this point. He walked away from the park area, and she walks back toward the park area toward her pickup truck. I don't know, get something out of it, or I have no idea.

Try it again. Yeah, because they were going to go to the cousin's apartment, and that's not working. So maybe now they have to lock it up, or I don't know what the deal is. So she starts walking toward there. They have to lock it up or I don't know what the deal is. So she starts walking toward there. As she walks toward the park, she hears or she walks past the park, you know, on the sidewalk past the park. She hears some moaning going on in the park and looks in the darkness and sees what she describes as a cream colored shape near the middle of the park. green-colored shape near the middle of the park, and it appeared to be one person on top of another,

possibly with not as many clothes on. She can't tell because it's dark and it's over there, but it looks like people are fucking in the park. She sees it. She's like, oh, shit. She picks up her pace a little bit. She's not a deviant, and she keeps moving. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure she stopped for a second just to see if it was good action but then she was like yeah you know i don't know see if she knows them to tell some friends later who's that let me look at their ass and see if i

could tell so she uh she's you know it's like oh people are fucking i'm gonna keep on moving by she says this is about 4 a.m somewhere between 4 a.m and 4 30 to30 to 4.45 a.m. So somewhere in that 45-minute span, this is. She doesn't know because they've been pushing a truck and banging on doors, and they're drunk, and there's no cell phones. It's 1983. You lose track of time pretty fast. You lose track of time. So at 4.15 a.m., Bart pops back up at the Long Branch, back at the bar.

And the cook at this point, I don't know if they're still serving alcohol or not, but there's a cook there. They're serving food. Well, they're not. I don't think he's cooking right now, but he works there. I guess he's closing up. I don't know what the fuck he's doing. But he serves Bart some coffee, which is probably for the better. I think he could use some sobering up a little bit.

And the cook notices that Bart's knuckles are scraped up. And he said it looks like his hands had recently been scrubbed clean, like they look real clean and a little bit red, like he'd been scrubbed pretty hard and, you know, had some scraped up knuckles and lava something. But he didn't notice any blood on him. He didn't have like blood all over his shirt or, you know, any some scraped up knuckles and lava something, but he didn't notice any blood on him. He didn't have like blood all over his shirt or, you know, any of that kind of shit. Like he just, just as hands were scraped up.

So, uh, the next morning, a couple hours, not that morning, I should say a couple hours later, 7am, 7am,

uh, two men are in the park, uh, you know, just doing morning park shit that people do. Weird people. Oh God. Crazy people that go out and do things at seven in the park, you know, just doing morning park shit that people do. Weird people. People jog at 7 a.m. Oh, God.

Crazy people that go out and do things at 7 in the morning. So they go out to the park, and they see a woman lying in the grass. And they're like, oh, shit, somebody's sleeping out there, whatever. Once they get near her, though, they see a lot of blood, and they see some horrible wounds. It is Dana Dumars, the waitress really who it is yeah 20 year old dana dumars and she is has a pulse still but she is barely alive and she'll end up dying i think before she gets to the hospital they call an ambulance and all that and it's uh because somebody she's Because somebody attacked her with a hatchet.

Oh, Jesus. Yeah, she has wounds on her that are hatchet marks in her, hatchet wounds. And it looks like someone took a few chops at trying to behead her with a hatchet. Oh, my. Her head is like half removed. With a hatchet? Via a hatchet, they figure based on based on the way the wounds are you can tell like a somebody puts a hatchet in your chest is it's a giant gaping

fucking hole so she ends up dying um yeah uh there's a pool of blood near the sidewalk so up closer to the sidewalk where um that's where patty and brian had walked by it's right near there there's a trail of blood leading from that pool of blood near the sidewalk to the place where dane is found near the middle of the park yeah so that that tells you a lot right there of what was going on so he uh whoever did this apparently you know uh had a hatchet attack there and then drug her into the park and you know had his way and raped a half dead hatchet wounded woman and then tried to remove her head so wow that's a lot man that's a lot horrifying that is terrifying. And to have somebody walk by in the middle of this but not think it was what it was. Not know.

Yeah. The moans were death moans, not pleasure moans. You know what I mean? Nuts. But from the middle of the park at four in the morning when you're drunk, you're like, oh, people are fucking. I'm going to keep walking. Yeah.

You don't even think about it. I bet someone's chopping someone's head off over there. Who thinks of that? I would never. We would now. Our listeners probably would. It's the first thing they think of. Then they'd get closer and go,

oh, it's just sex, sorry. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched.

He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye-bye.

The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. So it's just people having sex. Damn it. So Bart reports to work at 3 p.m. He works that shift. So that's on, this is a Saturday, February the 12th. So the next day, the morning that Dana's found.

And it is widely known by 3 o'clock in this town. It's spread. Candy Cane Park, everybody knows that park in this town. And it has spread like wildfire that a murder has taken place in candy cane park the night before so him and all the people at work are sitting around you know tossing around the shit saying who do you think it is i heard you know is it i heard it was a lady i heard it was some guy who you know from the city i heard it was this guy they're all have their theories and gossiping and all that kind of shit. And Bart participates in this.

He says that he heard that the victim of the murder worked at the bar where he and his friends had been the previous evening. Oh, my God. Now, by that time, nobody knew who the hell this was, who the victim was besides the police and her family. It was the only people that knew. And Bart. Yeah. And Bart, who's not a member of her family and would have no reason to know this sort of thing. So that's interesting here. They didn't publicly disclose her identity until the following Monday.

And on Saturday, he's got theories of that. Pretty sure. Pretty good ideas. Pretty good ideas. Yeah. your pretty good ideas. Pretty good ideas, yeah. So about 7.15 p.m. on that Monday after they announce it and everything like that,

a Lieutenant O'Rourke and another police officer from LeGrand go to Bart's home and tell him that they're investigating a murder. And they said, can we search your house and pick up? And he said, absolutely, come on in. So Bart allows them to search the house to pick up everything they find nothing incriminating you know no there's no bloody hatchet or you know her necklace with one of her necklaces with dana written on it or something none of that's there

so that's good i guess so he also agrees to accompany them to the police station to answer some questions as they tend to do. And they told him that he's not under arrest or anything like that. He doesn't have to come, but they like to talk to him, and it's easier down at the station. So, can you help us out? Because you were in the area that night. You went to these bars. And he said, yeah, no problem.

Voluntarily goes to the police station in their car even. Doesn't, like, say, I'll find my own way. Which, unless I'm under arrest, I'm not riding in your cop car. Period. End of story. You wouldn't even do a ride-along? Well, that's a different thing. But, I mean, if you're questioning me about something and you're like, no, we'll give you a ride, we're like, no, no, no, no, no. No one's giving me – no.

I'm good. Thanks. We'll give you a ride am i under arrest no well then fuck you and fuck you you got plenty of chance later on after you arrest me for whatever this is to have me in your custody but for now i'll i'll listen to whatever music i want on the way to the police station so um he they so he came there and he there you know at this point he hasn't been read his rights or anything like that. This is merely as we're interviewing everybody who might have seen this woman.

Yeah, I mean, anybody who could have been near the park, anybody who was at these bars, everybody's getting to talking to. So they get to the station, and it's O'Rourke, the Detective O'Rourke, Lieutenant O'Rourke, and a Sergeant Button. So the lieutenant and the sergeantant and they are interrogating him. This this is an interrogation. They're they're interested in talking to him. They interrogate him for about seven hours. Oh, this whole thing. This whole thing is going to take place over a seven hour period from about 740 p.m.

to about 240 a.m. That tells you right away that you are certainly a suspect. There's something. Yeah, there's something up there.40 a.m. That tells you right away that you are certainly a suspect. There's something, yeah, there's something up there. Seven hours here? Seven hours. In seven hours, I didn't give you clear, concise information that leads you away from me? Seven hours.

Seven hours means you're only leading them toward you. That's what that means. So, and with this, too, when they read the rights is a very important thing here, because when someone's a witness, you don't have to read them the Miranda rights. But as soon as they become a suspect and the questions go that way, you have to read the rights. You can't try to sneak a couple in and then do it. They'll throw that out. That happens all the time. Cops try to get cute with that shit, and it doesn't work. Also, don't wait too long with those

because the questions that you ask are useless that's the other thing too you have to be asking very like oh you were there did you see other people there those those are the witness questions you can ask but once it's like do you do you own any hatchet like implements now that's a suspect question yeah not a witness question so they uh at first he denies any altercation with patty stroud at the bar because they have talked to other people and they said there was this one nut guy who threatened to cut my fucking head off at the bar so if you got a woman with their head half cut off three hours later that might be a guy to talk to he he says that's what he quote does to bitches so i mean that's and yeah he didn't he didn't threaten dana

but uh two bitches no she may be one of those hey a bitch is a bitch jimmy you know jesus christ good god i think i think that's his thinking is what i'm getting a wide spectrum of people because it could be women or men right i with this guy I don't think it matters. I really don't think he's that particular with what they think of this guy at this moment. So he apparently admits having an argument with her. And then finally, he also admits eventually grabbing her by the throat and face and threatening to chop her head off, which looks terrible. Not good. At the bar, it might be one thing at midnight when drinks flowing but at you know 7 45 p.m in the fluorescent glow of a police interrogation

room it doesn't have a quite the same ring to it you know a little different yeah that's the same yeah when you have a cup of coffee rather than a shot of johnny walker red in your hand i think it's a little different. Plays entirely different. Totally different crowd, too. This is like, wow, the early shows sucked here. You know what I mean? They really suck. The late shows are much better crowd.

I like the late show. They're much more willing to go dirty. They're just loose, you know what I mean? They'll go with you and stuff. That's how comics talk. So he tells the police officers here the lieutenant and the sergeant that he thought he had seen patty stroud leave the long branch and that he left shortly thereafter but he hadn't crossed the uh adams which is a

major street between long brand the long branch bar and the park he said he never crossed there so they tell him um well you know your your pickup truck is very distinct looking, so people see it and they remember it. And so then he said, well, all right, yeah, I guess I did maybe. I did cross Adams. Yeah, you're right. That's true. Yeah, you know what? People saw it, and now it's coming back to me.

I had a few drinks. I'm not going to lie. Yeah, I'm not an angel. But I crossed over there. Yeah, he said he had driven down the street that leads from the Long Branch to the park. That's the street he drove on, which is exactly what they were asking him to begin with, which he denied. And then they went around in a circle until he finally said yes. That's frustrating.

As a human being talking to another human being, you just want to go, you know, you just get angry at that. It's like talking to your kids. Exactly. And you're like, why did you waste my time? I'm busy. I have things to do. I have things to do. I get that this is your blah, blah, and Xbox and fucking.

Right. Yeah, that's great. But I have shit to do that i want to get done so i can play xbox you get it now you understand and shit doesn't pay our bills kid yeah so he said that um that he was down there and he actually said he saw an older model pickup break down out there so he was close in that range and he saw a man and woman get out of the truck and walk down the street in the direction of the park so he's like i saw a man and a woman is that the woman who's dead i don't know he's doing that sort of thing not good so

then he said that he could not remember whether his pickup truck lights had been on at the time which he's driving at night so they should have been but they're fucking better but i mean you know i think it's probably a well-lit street too although when you drive under them they go out so as we found out earlier the street lights but the other thing is when you drive down the road if your speedometer is not lit up guess what else isn't lit up yes yes nothing else if you can't see how fast you can't see how much gas is in the tank, nobody can see you. That should be written on there. So he said he followed the couple a short distance for some reason and then passed them on the way to his friend, Cedric Page's apartment. He said that he wanted to apologize to Page for his behavior earlier in the evening.

That's why he was going up there. He felt terrible. It was a terrible show. He had a cup of coffee and his behavior earlier in the evening. That's why he was going up there. He felt terrible. It was a terrible show. He had a cup of coffee and he thought better of the whole thing. He hasn't had coffee yet. Verify my beheading threats. I apologize. Yeah, I mean, you could have backed me up a little stronger, but still, I shouldn't have brought it up.

That's all I'm saying. But he didn't find Page at home, he said. He was gone somewhere. So, you know, 4 o'clock in the morning. So he said he drove back by the park. He did see a person walking on the sidewalk in the dark area between the streetlights at either end of the park. So he said, I saw someone there. He said that was about 410, 415 a.m. maybe.

So at that time in the interrogation, Sergeant Button leaves the room to tell police chief Johnson. Chief Johnson. This sounds so made up. Johnson. Yeah. He tells him, listen, this he just he's putting himself there at the time saying he's seeing these people like, you know, what do we do here? Basically, which he should probably know if he was an experienced homicide detective. do here basically which he should probably know if he was an experienced homicide detective but there are people on foot that saw this girl alive and well yeah and then he's saying he saw those people on foot yeah that's not bad that's not good at all none of this is good this all sounds bad so um police chief said well fucking read him his rights number one have you read him his rights yet no well goddamn do that. First of all.

So Button reenters the room as Lieutenant O'Rourke continued to question Bart. And so he the Button, he writes a note and passes it to O'Rourke telling him to read him his rights. Yeah. Which he shouldn't. He's a lieutenant. You're asking about murder stuff. Are you fucking kidding me? So O'Rourke admitted later on that he resisted these instructions because, quote, I had not advised anyone else I had interviewed in this particular situation, and I did not want to advise Mr. Cochran.

I don't want to play the game by the rules is what it is. I didn't. You didn't think anyone else. I play by my own rules. Anybody else, though, he didn't think possibly killed this person. So that's why he didn't have to read him the rights. They were witnesses. Whereas this person has turned into a suspect before their very eyes. Like a tail sprouted out.

This isn't Dragnet, friend. You got to get into this you gotta do it the right way so he said i thought maybe if i advised him of his rights and he had information pertaining to the murder he wouldn't give it yeah that's the that's the point that's the point of miranda rights exactly he's like he's like oh man there's just this i thought about this constitution i was like it'd just be easier if we didn't have it right at that moment. So I've decided not to do it. Like, that's the point of that.

You have to tell the someone, hey, stupid, you are a suspect right now in this murder. So be aware of what the fuck you say. That's the point. Wow. That's to set this fucking game up on an even playing field, sir. Whoa. So O'Rourke leaves the room to try to change the chief's mind about reading him his rights chief not yet i want to get all of it so we can throw it all out this guy

actively went to argue about reading rights to a person what that he's asking homicide questions to this is not a bright person i it's 40 years ago that's what i mean it's 40 years ago so i would assume this guy's not a cop anymore i pray to whatever fucking deity above that this guy's not a cop anymore because this is horrible so it's just stupid no for sure because the miranda rights are there because they lost a scumbag you yeah you kept a scumbag on the streets because of this so that's let's fucking get it right that's what happened this is crazy so while he's gone trying to change the chief's mind bart tries to get button to tell him whether button thought that he killed bart's like hey do you think i did it he's trying to get that out of button like what's

going on here you guys thinking I'm doing this? So Button assures him that he does not think that he killed this woman at all. Then he proceeds to read the Miranda rights. Attaboy. He understands where we are in this conversation, that it has to happen, whatever the police chief says or not. So this is the description of the events of how this goes. This is his description now, Bart's description. He says, quote, he goes through it and he goes, if I thought you did it, I'd read you this one.

And then he reads number one. Think about that. Done, friend. Wow. If I thought you did it, I i'd say this and then it's like that's crazy if i thought you did i'd say you have the right to remain silent that's what he did genius i've never heard of that one before i didn't know that was an option he said he says and then he goes if i thought you did it, anything you say, and then he just said that every time.

And then he said, and then I'd sign it right here, and then he signed it. So think about this. What is he telling you by this? If I thought you did it, I would say this, and then he says it. He thinks you did it. That's what that then he says it he thinks you did it that's what that says dummy so this is genius though um wow it's it's evil genius but it's genius can it can that get thrown out because you have to read it verbatim right yeah that's the well the way he's doing it he's definitely trying to he's definitely stretching and fucking with him he's trying to massage this shit big time so

i kind of agree it's pretty awesome he said i'd have you sign it right there i go i don't want to sign that and i didn't do it and he goes go ahead go ahead and then i signed it and then he goes but i don't think you did it this is that's fucked up you can't do it it's funny but it's not cool it's not legal so that it's this would be funny if it was on a television show and you knew the guy did some terrible shit and they're and they can't bust him because he's been doing something again and then you're like ah got you asshole i know you you killed that little girl and now you're going down but this is weird so he's um then he after he signs it he bart keeps asking button hey do you think i did it do you think i did it and so what he says is that quote at that point this is bart quote at that point he asked me again oh no this is uh this is button so button says that point, he asked me, you don't think I killed her, do you?

I said, Bart, if I thought you'd killed her, I wouldn't do this. At that point, I took the Miranda card and placed it in the trash on the opposite side of the desk. That means nothing, though. Whether it's in a basket on top of the desk or sitting on the desk, it's, you know what I mean? But he made him think that that's out the window now. Yeah. Never mind. At that point, O'Rourke reenters the room carrying a color picture of Dana's face.

Oh, God. And Button told him that he's been advised of his rights now. He should have added a sort of to that probably. Kind of. Kind of. A little bit. I kind of. I mentioned them. They were i told them they were said the words

were said i articulated words on a sheet ish he he gets the gist so o'rourke sits down on the on a on the desk in front of bart and holds this color photograph directly in front of his face and asks him three times, did you do this? Oh, my God. Did you do this? Hey, did you do this? Can we just arrest the cops? They're terrible at this. They're so bad at this.

They're so bad at this. If this was on film, like, this would be a comedy show. This is ridiculous. If someone's life wasn't hanging in the balance and someone wasn't already dead, this would be hilarious. If this was Law and Order, the dad from Dirty Dancing would fire all of them. Oh, God. All of them. Gone.

Get out of here. So he would get everyone gone. So the first time, he asked him three times, did you do this? The first time he asked him, he said no. The second time O'Rourke asked Bart, Bart turns to Button and says, I couldn't have done that, could I? Oh, no. Which is terrible.

That's a crack. Don't do that. That's a big crack, yeah. Then the third time, did you do this? He just wouldn't answer it. He just sat there silent. That's not. So from no to I couldn't have done it, could I, to I'm not answering nothing.

Bad progression. So O'Rourke leaves the room and comes back with a black light. Okay. Yeah, okay. This gets weird now. He directs Bart to put his hands under the light for the purpose of, quote, this is what he'll say later on, O'Rourke, quote, jarring the defendant into telling the truth, making him have an impression that something is happening that maybe isn't. This is the Xerox machine thing. That's exactly what this is.

This is actually legal. You're allowed to lie to a suspect all day long. The only thing you can't do is not Mirandize them. Once they're in there, you can say, oh, yeah, no, we got your fingerprints. We got your DNA. It's just matched it. We just matched your DNA. It's crazy.

Now, a smart criminal would say, let's see that paper, motherfucker. And if they don't have it, then, you know, that would be a different story. But let's see the lab work, you know. And he's going to create, he's going to take whatever shows up under this black light and create it into a scenario. Yeah. So the light caused his hands to glow a fluorescent orange color. And O'Rourke tells him that blood produces that glow.

So you must have blood on your hands. So apparently he then said, well So you must have blood on your hands. So, apparently he then said, well, blood must have been my own. Which is not good. He didn't deny having blood. He just went, well, if there was blood, it was mine. They're like, okay. So, then this is what

Button says, quote, Bart was looking at his hands and rubbing them together as if he was trying to get something off of them. He was asked if that was blood on his hands and if it was as if he was trying to get something off of them. He was asked if that was blood on his hands and if it was Dana's blood. And he said something to the effect, quote, it couldn't be her blood, could it? And then directed further questions like, you know, it couldn't be hers. And then from that point, he just kept rubbing his hands together as if he was trying to get something off of them. So he wants O'Rourke to leave.

He says, make O'Rourke leave. I don't like that guy. He says, quote, if you'll just stop saying I killed her, I'll talk to Sergeant button. So I don't like you.

You're a bad cop. You held the picture in front of my face. And so now it's a, now it's all button. Okay. Button says this quote, sit down, Bart,

talk to me. Let's figure this out, the two of us. Together. Yeah, you know, we're partners. He says, you and I, I help you, you help me. Oh, this is going to be great. You're a cop now. Deputized. Shoot, does the sign of the cross, deputized.

The fuck out of here. Let's solve this together. So then he begins to use a technique. He says he tells him to, this is by the way, Button says that he invented this interrogation technique. Because this guy is so smart that he can invent interrogation techniques. He says

quote, that he told him to relax, lean back, close his eyes, and imagine that he was watching a motion picture screen and concentrate on my questions, okay? So basically, like if you were going to tell somebody, here's my movie, lay back and picture it, okay? This is what it is.

He then told Bart that by doing so, he and the two of us will be able to retrieve information from your subconscious mind. So we're going to basically hypnotize you without hypnotizing you. Now, he has no training button in the use of hypnotic induction or anything else. He has no, you know, he's a cop. That's it. Yeah, he's just full of shit.

He has used this, apparently, he said. So he said he starts to see things that he observes the night of the murder. So he said he starts to see things that he observes the night of the murder. As it goes on, however, though, Button convinces Bart that that Bart has a, quote, special gift. Yeah. And that Bart can use that gift to tell Button about things that he that Bart has claimed that he didn't even personally observe. So he's like, even if you weren't there, I think you're clairvoyant, Bart. You can see it. You can see it.

You can see it in your brain. So at 10 p.m., this is 30 minutes after O'Rourke left the room, the director of the mental health services for Union County enters the room. It should be for the cop, but it's for Bart. He remains there for the rest of the interrogation. So a mental health specialist watches this horseshit. So at 11 p.m., Button put a microphone on the desk in front of Bart and the officers in the next room tape the interrogation. They tape pretty much for the whole rest of the night. There's portions that aren't taped for breaks and shit like that.

So here is some transcript. Quote, this is Button., pulled her back one more time. At that point, this unknown person killed her, hit her with something. It had to be something. It had to be at that point right there where he hit her the first time with something. You've described her coat, her hair, you this time. When, when you go back, I want you to look for something. I want to know what to go out there and look for.

I want to find it. Tell me what this object is when you get to that point where he pulls her back the last time and she's trying to get away. Look for that something. It's probably you're right-handed, I'm right-handed. He's left-handed. He said, look at his right hand. The odds are going to be that he's right-handed. So look at his right hand.

And Bart says, this is just too good to be saying. Too good to be saying. The mental health specialist here still he says go ahead man that's unknown i don't know what the hell that means cochran says i can't picture what it was though uh he just hit her so button says go back and freeze the frame just like a movie projector doing slow-mo come on you can do this part yeah you you have all the vision on the field let's go he said go to where they were hassling her and where he had his hand in the air. At that point, see what he's got in his hand.

It will come down, either hit her on the top of the head or on the right side of the head. He was right-handed. Tell me what was in his hand. He said, take a look at his right hand. Watch it come down and tell me what was in his hand. There's a long pause at that point. And Button says, do you see his right hand? Do you see it?

Freeze it. Tell me what it is.. And Button says, do you see his right hand? Do you see it? Freeze it. Tell me what it is. Cochran says, it's shiny. Oh, no. Button says, huh? And Bart says, it's metal and shiny. Button says, like what? And Cochran says, shiny like my knife blade.

Which is a terrible thing to say. Like my knife blade. Button says, it's shiny like your knife blade? He says, yeah, it's that shiny. I see the reflection easy. And Button said, would you say it's the same size? It's probably a pretty good size for you to see it there, to be able to see it.

Cochran goes, yeah, it was. Button says, take a look at it. Tell me if it's possible that this guy had a knife just like yours Just freeze frame that and see the knife Take your time You're doing great Just take your time and look at the hand See it up in the air

You'll see something shiny in the hand now Now focus on that and think Do you see the knife Tell me what it is And Bart says It's more like a hatchet. Oh, goddammit, Bart. That's not good at all.

You dumb, dumb. Button said, how long was it from handle to tip? How many inches? About that size shows a ruler or longer. And Cochran here, Bart says, I can't see the blade, but it seems like it's more of a hatchet style. Button says, close your eyes and do that. Close your eyes. Close your eyes up here with the

ruler in your hand so you measure it in your brain step into this frame and measure it so he says come down like the guy did with the hatchet and tell me what you see just act it out for me so now he's got him acting out the actions so Bart says

damn I was past it's inaudible what he says after that button says, it's okay. Your subconscious has got this. Get in there, Jiminy cricket. So Cochran says something inaudible and then button says, okay, where did the first blow go? You got it. And Bart says, top of the head as he gestures a chopping motion. And he says the very top of the head button says uh and still says was

she facing him or was she turning and uh cochran says a bunch of inaudible shit so button says i believe you man this is strictly out of your subconscious wow he says when you get done here i'll show you a trick about the hatchet that you're holding in your hand there that ruler let me show you something about this ruler uh to your subconscious this is a hatchet that you're holding in your hand there, that ruler. Let me show you something about this ruler. To your subconscious, this is a hatchet. You just replaced this ruler for a hatchet, right? You and I know it's a ruler, but to your subconscious, when you hold it like this in your hand, that becomes a hatchet that hit that girl, right? Now, let me show you a little thing that you can do with this, okay? Only very few people can do this, and you are one of them because you've demonstrated that. I want you to hold this hatchet, close your eyes, and tell me where it's at right,

where it is right now. And it's inaudible. And Button says, I want you to tell me where I can go, where I can walk out of this room and find that hatchet. Where did that hatchet go? If I was this hatchet, where would I be? He said it's called transfer. It's called projection transfer, he's telling him now. That's what it's called. You're transferring this ruler to that hatchet, and you'll be able to tell me where the guy threw the hatchet or hid it.

Even though you've never seen it and you don't know where it's at, you'll be able to tell me where I can find it. Will you try that? Okay, do that. Grab a hold of that hatchet and close your eyes and tell me what he did with that hatchet. You'll be able to see that hatchet laying someplace. Bart says it seems like thick

bushes. So then he says that he thought, this is Bart, that he thought the hatchet was in thick bushes behind a man named Homer LaFell's house. What? Which is across the street from the park. And another Simpson's name. And another Simpson's name. And another Simpson's name.

Exactly. I was going to say, are we catching this already? So then Bart tells him several times that he can't see how, he doesn't understand how this whole thing's working, but you know. He doesn't get it. Yeah. He says, you know, he says he's just guessing. I don't know, man.

Just guessing. So then he began to question him about another murder. He says he starts out like this button. He says, quote, bless your pointed little head, my man. That's how he says it. That's how he starts out. Your pointed little head, my man. That's great, Bart.

Idiot conehead. Yeah. Bless you. You coneheaded moron is what he said. Patted him on top of the cone. That's great, Bart. You're doing fine. There's very few people that have the gift you've got.

You don't realize the gift that you have here. This is amazing. Let me throw something at you here. Let me throw something out at you here. Just your feelings inside because you can see this, obviously. We're plain folk. We can't see this. Like, we're dumb cops. You're brilliant. He said, we're plain folk. We can't see this. Like, we're dumb cops.

You're brilliant. He said, we're plain folk. We can't see this. This guy has obviously just killed a girl, right? So there's an old adage in police work that if he's done it once, possibly he's done it again. You know what I mean?

And you came up with a very key word there. You flashed onto Morgan. There's a distinct possibility that this guy may, just from what you've seen, you may be able to flash into Morgan Lake. You remember the one that made the press here a while back, the Sylvia Heisteman deal. That was another woman who was killed a few months earlier.

So using the same technique, he gets button to go through this. He gets a Bart to go through this whole thing and admit to seeing and doing all that. And this is the transcript. Oh, by the way. Oh, that's coming out later. Right before this, Bart asked Button, do you think I need a lawyer? And then he said, I don't know.

And they just kept talking. Button, what are you doing? Button says, uh-huh, okay, so you put Sylvia Heisteman in the stream to wash her off. Is it getting tough? Let's back up. And then Cochran said, did you get a hold of my lawyer? And Button said, did I get a hold of your lawyer? You want me to try and get a hold of him for you again?

And Bart says, yeah, let's try that. So Button says, okay, let me find the phone book. What did they do with that phone book? Oh, here it is. I'm trying to get a hold of his lawyer, he says to somebody else. So Bart says, will I be able to go to work tomorrow or will I have to ask? I don't know what that means. Button says, I'll have to ask Mr. Mammon.

He's in the other office. He's out there doing whatever DAs do. Oh, that's a district attorney. You know how they are. OK. So they said a couple of questions. You're checking on the lawyer's name. That's the mental health guy. And Button says, well, let me get a hold of his lawyer. So Bart says, you're going to call him at two. And Button says, you can call him any, we can call him anytime you want. And Bart says, okay.

And then still the mental health guy says, you're going to call him now or you want to and button says yeah i got him right now and cochran says will i need him or and button says huh and he said cochran says will i need him and button says i don't know do you want me to call him he's supposed to be on the phone with him yeah do you want me to yeah so then bart says well do you think i'll need him for this case? Let's call him up. I better get some information just for the record. And Button says, sure. And apparently at some time during all this, he never actually got a hold of the lawyer.

What the fuck? So I guess he didn't answer or whatever the fuck. So at 2 a.m., as Button continued to question him about the Sylvia Heisteman murder, He requested that's when the attorney request called and all that sort of shit. So now that's where they are. They have all this information. This is where they think the murder weapon is. Three months go by. Three months later here, a boy mowing part of Homer LaFell's yard near the grass pile

noticed the handle of a hatchet sticking out of the grass pile. Oh, Jesus. Analysis of the hatchet at the FBI crime lab detected no fingerprints or blood on it, but it's been there for three months probably. The state crime lab concluded on the basis of matching striations on the blade and on the victim's skull and on the basis of particles of hair closely resembling the victims found adhering to the blade that that's the murder weapon. Exactly where he fucking said it was, behind some bushes in a grass pile. At Homer's house. So he's going to trial. Homer turned Bard in for murder.

Again. Again. So he pleads innocent. His case is he's got an 80 IQ. He doesn't even have the mental capacity to carry out the crime. That's what his lawyer says. This dumb fuck couldn't have done this. He's too stupid, which is crazy. Way stupider people

have done way worse things. That's a bad defense. And they said that they tricked him into making the deal there, obviously. They talk about his hands. The theory from the state is that the Patty Stroud and Dana Dumars were wearing very similar outfits that night.

And they think that he confused because he saw Patty admitted to seeing them outside the truck. So he thought that one was the other and attacked her because he had a beef with her because he didn't even talk to Dana Dumars. So it might have been just mistaken identity is their thing. So they deny, the court denies the motion to suppress the statements he made in the interrogation. Really? All that's allowed in. Everything I just told you is allowed in. Everything.

The projection transfer, all of that shit. Projection transfer. Verdict comes in. Guilty. Oh, boy. Sentence. boy sentence you sir may fuck off uh life in prison okay uh that not be considered for parole before serving 10 years so 10 to life in 85 though he appeals the whole thing sure and they say under the totality of the circumstances in this case, it makes clear that the state did not sustain its burden of them voluntarily giving statements here. They said his unorthodox interrogation techniques combined with his statement, Bart, if I thought you killed her, I wouldn't do this, then throwing the Miranda rights in the garbage, basically throws everything the fuck out of there at that point.

You can't do that uh they talk about his good guy bad guy routine and all that kind of shit and uh you know that's in the manual but the way they do it they say it was more harmful the way they did that there um there's a whole bunch of this shit the black light thing they said was no less deceptive and no less likely to produce involuntary incriminating behavior and they said that button took advantage of his of bart's dependency and tricked him into believing that he had supernatural abilities that button could use to find the true killer so it is reversed and remanded for a new trial now good yeah um he is the bail is set for a hundred thousand dollars on him he can get out on bail bail because he's up for a retrial.

But in 1986, the state says without that, they have no evidence. They have a hatchet with none of his fingerprints on it. They have nothing to connect him to it but his statement. So they say they can't recharge him, and he goes free. Oh, boy. That's that. So who knows? In 1987, he's arrested for defective equipment for having a car so

fucked up on the road that they arrested him for it that's arrested for it being so unsafe terrible well they said he had a very unique truck remember so i don't know if he's got some crazy shit uh currently it says from what i found he still lives in legrand um what the fuck is happening uh candy cane park though yeah since the murder has said to be very haunted by dana's spirit okay this is a yeah it's in every haunted thing from oregon you can find they talk about candy cane park it's a big deal the merry-go-round not with horses but the ones that you jump on you push with your feet and jump on and spin, the real dangerous ones that concuss people. Well, yeah, one kid sticks his head in and gets knocked out. That apparently they said the ghost would make the merry-go-round spin uncontrollably out of nowhere.

It would pick up speed. It would throw people off. It would, like, wobble and shit even though it's very steady. So it happened so much that they removed the merry-go-round in 2003. Wow. It was said to be Dana's ghost doing that and now they said that the ghost supposedly haunts the park's benches and haunts the swing sets as well

and people have reports of seeing a ghostly woman sitting on the benches and swing sets and she's there warning people to leave that they're going to get attacked and they need to leave she's like the whatever so it's time to raise that park She's there warning people to leave, that they're going to get attacked and they need to leave. She's like the whatever. It's time to raise that part. The pictures are creepy, too.

It says, quote, if you listen on a quiet night when the wind is calm and the leaves and the fall leaves hold their rustle tight, you might hear the tormented wail of the woman as she relives her fright. Oh, my God. Creepy shit. That is LeGrand, Oregon. That's where Ledoux's boy is flying whoa get in there ladue him and his 80 year old band are playing there wow that's a crazy story small town murder express 10 pounds of lightning in a two pound bag baby every fucking time horrible horrible and all at the murder what the cops did it's all terrible everybody's a nightmare

hey small town murder where everybody's a nightmare come on everybody if you like that show tell the world whatever app you're listening on you can give a rating give five stars tell them something I don't give a shit what you say it's not for our ego it helps drive us up the charts helps people see the show more

definitely do that follow us on social media at murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Small Town Pod on Facebook. Shut up and give me murder.com is the website. Get in there, get your tickets for live shows. Kicking off the tour February 10th with Cleveland. Cleveland, come strong or we will be brutal to you. Trust me. So it's going really well. Tickets are flying off the shelf. St. Louis sold out. Extra shows added. One in Seattle on Thursday night that week and one, the late show, we added in Portland on Saturday. So get your tickets there.

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If you want to follow us on social media, super easy to do that. You can just go to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Links are right there. Bam. You can't miss them. That said, yeah, that is a crazy show. The whole show is nuts everything's between the ghosts and the and the projection whatever the hell that was projection transfer someone needs to be in jail no one ever

went to jail maybe that's why she's haunting this park yes she's mad at the cop she's waiting for button to wander in there so she can fucking headlock him and give him a noogie she was hoping one of those kids on the merry-go-round was Buttons. We'll end this right now. He won't be a cop, too. God damn it. So that said, like I said, follow us on social media. Links are all there.

Thank you so much for joining us, everybody. And until next week, it's been our pleasure. Bye. It's been our pleasure. Bye! Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts.

I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor.

I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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