Small Town Murder - #357 - Crushed Skulls & Missing Golf Clubs - Prescott, Arizona

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

This week, in Prescott, Arizona, a very smart, successful couple make a very nice life for themselves, in a wonderful custom built home. Eventually, 17 affairs cause them to separate, and divorce. Once everything is final, all seems fine, until one of them is on the phone, and the words "oh no" are said, followed by the line going dead. A terribly bumbling investigation of the bloody & horrific crime scene follows, complete with awful police work. Footprints, tire tracks & DNA only confuse the whole thing. Will anyone ever pay for this terrible murder??Along the way, we find out that anyone can be in the rodeo, that a gun & a flashlight aren't enough to make grown man confident enough to look into a bloody house, and that DNA under the nails doesn't exactly mean that you have your killer!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Prescott, Arizona, it's a serene setting for a not-so-serene murder and a twisted mystery and trail of evidence leading to who the detectives suspected all along. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. Obviously, because it's the same crazy, crazy every week. It just gets crazier and no different this week. We're going to make fun of Arizona, a land we know well. So that'll be fun. Way too well. We'll say here 50 years of combined Arizona experience between us. So plenty of that coming. First of all, though, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. What are you going to find there?

Tickets. Oh, everything. February the 10th, Cleveland. We kick off the tour this year. We cannot wait. Get your tickets right now. I think St. Louis is sold out the next night. A few left in Cleveland, so get in there right now. And, of course, we added extra shows.

Extra show in Seattle. It's a Thursday night show before the Friday show there. And then an extra show in Portland. We added a late show to the Saturday night that we're there. So get your tickets right now, and there will be different cases too. So if you want to see an early and a late show, you're going to see different cases. So that will be a good time. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com, Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports.

That's the bonus stuff. Anybody $5 give me murder.com. Patreon.com slash crime and sports. That's the bonus stuff. Anybody $5 or above, you get it all. The back catalog, a bonus, everything. Two new episodes every other week. This week, which you're going to get, and you get access to both of these, of course. For crime and sports, we're going to talk about the history of 10-cent beer nights in sports, where they used to have 10-cent beer nights. And then, then weird there'd

be a riot and the place would be on fire by the end of it every time they'd go that's a bad idea it's gotta be a connection between getting 10 beers for a dollar and mass violence that has to be has to be something there and then for small town murder we're going to talk about something very fun old-timey small town scams oh and this is everything from like during the dust bowl they would send out these these wonderful pamphlets and advertisements back east to people come out here and get this beautiful farmland and you know get some fresh air and all this stuff and they'd get there and it's just a sandy pit of despair there's no farm there's no anything and so And so this happened all over the country all the time.

In Florida, a lot had happened. So we'll talk about that. Small town scams there. That's patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of that. And of course, look out for, looks like the beginning of March, look out for Your Stupid Opinions, our new show where we make fun of people's bad reviews of things. And that's our most fun segment of this show. And it's even better with this show, with Your Stupid Opinions, because it can be anything under the sun that we're going to do reviews on.

So that said, disclaimer, it's a comedy show. It is. We're comedians. We are. Bad things are going to happen in this story. I'll tell you that right now. And we're going to make jokes. things are going to happen in this story i'll tell you that right now and we're going to make jokes there's going to be jokes about it too but what we do here how do we make this work we go out of our way not to make fun of the victim or the victim's families why is that that's because we're assholes oh yeah but but we're

not scumbags see that's how that works so if you think that's fun you're gonna have a good time because it's a crazy story uh if you think that's fun, you're going to have a good time because it's a crazy story. If you think true crime and comedy never, ever, ever go together, then maybe we're not for you. Maybe we're not. But this is a better way to do it as far as I'm concerned. It's less – to me, the more somber you are about it, the kind of creepier it is. If you try to be lighter around the edges, it kind of just makes the whole thing a little more – Much more digestible.

A little more digestible. So that said, I think it's time. What do you say, Jimmy? To sit back, clear the lungs. That's right. Where are you right now? At work? What are you at the gym? I don't care. Top of the elliptical. Do it up. Over your shoulder. Just do it. That's it. Just do it. That's right. Let's say the boardroom is full right now. Bust in there through the door. Have everybody look at you. Throw your arms up and shout, shut up and give me murder. And then look for a new job.

We're sorry. Get your resume in order. That said, let's go on a trip, Jimmy. All right. Not very far going up the road to Prescott, Arizona, which is spelled Prescott. The rest of the world says it. They, for some reason, insist on Prescott as the pronunciation. It's not a biscuit. Nope.

And it annoys the hell out of me and always has. It annoys the hell out of every person in Arizona. Yeah. When I lived there and I would say Prescott, Prescott, I'd go, no. No. No, I'm talking about the one that's spelled P-R-E-S-C-O-T-T. That one. Right.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Well, it used to be the capital here. That one. That one. That's the one. It's in central Arizona. It's the place where people go in Phoenix during the summer to pretend like it's a little bit cooler. Going up to Prescott for the weekend.

It's only 103 up there today. So, you know, that's what people do. It's not any cooler. I'm going to take the kids with me to Whiskey Row. Yeah, or go do that. Why are you going to do that? Why are you doing that? Central Arizona, like I said, about an hour 50 to Phoenix, but you can get there faster if you really try.

Oh, yeah. You get there much faster, much, much faster. About an hour 20 to – it's kind of in between Phoenix and Flagstaff is the best way to describe it. It's about an hour 20 to our last Arizona episode, which was Baghdad, Arizona, episode 211, lust, death, insanity, and a potato. And it was crazy. Oh, that's right. The potato side.

Yeah, the potato side. That was a wild episode. All the Arizona cases are always bonkers. Arizona is the Florida of the West, and it's leaning. Remember Williamson? Jesus. Oh, Christ. I'm telling you, this state is a mess.

It really is. When people decide to kill here, they have gone way over the edge. They've been sun bleached. Their brain has been sun bleached. All the good thoughts have been just seeped out of them. It's terrible. It's in Yavapai county area code 928 and the motto here is quote welcome to everybody's hometown is that what it really is that's really what it is welcome to everybody's hometown i don't know on all the signs it says world's oldest rodeo that's always the thing that's pacing no no that's

that's here too that's what they say here really they have it here the prescott rodeo. That's always the thing. That's Payson. No, no, that's here too. That's what they say here. Really? They have it here. The Prescott Rodeo is the world's oldest rodeo. The Payson one is older. They claim, well, you tell, Jimmy, we're getting in the car when we're done here, and we're going to go up there and tell them that. Let's go for a ride.

They're not, they don't believe that. Where's your mayor? Who is she? Who is she? Who are they? Somebody, line them up in front of me. So, yeah, history of this town. The first Europeans that were here, obviously the Yavapai Indians were here first, but the Spanish came.

It was a Spaniard here, Antonio de Espejo here. He was in 1583. He was looking for gold. And, yeah. And then there was no permanent white settlement here until the 1860s when it was explored by the Walker Party looking for gold, obviously. And they found gold just south of the town here in 1863. How much? I don't know how much.

There's no gold now. Two rings. Two rings. What did Arizona do? A lot of copper? Was it how much. There's no gold now. Two rings. Two rings. What was Arizona do? A lot of copper? Is it copper mining or silver? There's copper, yeah. Silver copper.

There was gold all over the place here, but it was fucked out so fast. Yeah, just by the time you heard about it, it was gone. Yeah, it was gone. They struck gold by Lynx Creek, Weaver Creek, and Big Buck. Is that right? Yes. And then it became a territory once we found something by 1863. It's useful?

As soon as the first nugget of gold is found, they're like, that's ours, right? Yeah, that one's ours. Put it on the list. We got, yeah, it's a territory now. We're doing great. And the Fort Whipple was established near Chino Valley, and that was the territorial capital. Chino Valley, and that was the territorial capital. So there was gold, silver.

That was very big, which also increased the fighting amongst the newly arrived and the natives that were already here. So there was all sorts of fighting back and forth. There was a woman in Prescott who is – this is a cool story. Her name is Mary Sawyer. She was basically just a cowboy in a woman's body. She wore men's clothes, was a hard drinker, swearer. Oh, yeah. Kate? What was her name?

Mary Sawyer. Belly up to the... Trying to remember the girl from Deadwood. Yeah, I was going to say, she's kind of like Calamity Jane. Jane, that's it. She's a Janey type person, kind of put her belly up to the bar and grab a drink. She even worked her own mining claim. No shit.

Yeah. She. But eventually, rather than finding it charming, they institutionalized her in 1877 in an insane asylum where she remained until her death in 1902. Twenty five years. Yeah. So it went from a real fun story to a not so fun story real fast. Holy shit. Prescott was the capital of Arizona territory until 1867 when they moved the capital to where, Jimmy?

Phoenix. Tucson is where they moved it. Isn't that right? Absolutely moved it to Tucson for some reason. That's a long ride. And then they went, wow, Tucson's terrible. What were we thinking? This is awful.

And then they moved it back up to Phoenix in 1889. I had no idea. I didn't think you would. How long was it there? 20 years, 20-something years. Yeah. Yeah. Long enough.

Yeah, it was bad. So Virgil Earp, who is Wyatt's brother, and Doc Holliday lived in Prescott before they went to Tombstone. Sure did. This is where they were first. Virgil lived there starting in 1878 as a constable, and Doc was there for a while in the summer of 1880 and even appears on the census records of 1880. So provable.

Reviews of this town. Let's find out what people have to say. It's varying, let's just say. Yes, the reviews. Here's five stars. You're going to find people who find this is the greatest place on Earth. And then you're going to find people who think it's a trash hole. So here we go.

Five stars. Prescott is super unique, which makes for a very special hometown. I don't know how unique it is. It's it's one of these Western X mining towns. It's a lot of them look just like this. It's like tiny Denver. Ex mining towns A lot of them look just like this It's like tiny Denver

It's worse though because There's like one area And then everything else is just where people live You know what I mean? There's a park and that's it It has a lot of history and attracts Tourists in the summertime It's just because it's cooler than Phoenix

The square is probably the most Popular spot You walk around located in downtown Prescott it holds a large grassy It's cooler than Phoenix. The Square is probably the most popular spot. There it is. Okay, yeah, you walk around. Located in downtown Prescott, it holds a large grassy quad with old-fashioned shops and restaurants surrounding it. This is right in front of the courthouse here. I got my process server license up there because you didn't have to wait. And I had to go up there and just hang out in the courthouse all day and wait for the sheriff to get in so he could fingerprint me for it and shit.

So I literally had to wait. The sheriff doesn't get in until 2. I'm like, what is going on in this place? I had to wait. I just sit in the courtyard. I bought a book and just sat in the courtyard. It was years ago. He was out on traffic duty all night, so he has sleep time.

They love traffic duty. That comes up in the story here. Oh? Yep. He says, this is where the annual courthouse lighting is held, where all the trees are lit up for Christmastime. Good burger place in that square, too. That little old burger place is fucking delicious. Oh, it's so good.

If you're looking at the courthouse, it's off to the left. It's really good. Oh, it's over there. Yeah, it's really good. Right on the street that the courthouse is on. Let's see. Where all the trees are lit up for Christmastime. Prescott has a lot to offer, such as beautiful hiking spots.

We have multiple lakes and the granite dells, which makes for stunning trails in the summer. Growing up in Prescott showed me a lot about the importance of community and how sweet it is to grow up in such a quaint little town. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's pretty. It is nice. Yeah, it's a pretty place. The word lake is about. It's yeah, that's that's the lakes are. Yeah. It's a pretty place. The word lake is about.

It's. Yeah. That's. That's. The lakes are man-made up there. Yeah. Right. They're man-made lakes.

They're very small. They're small man-made lakes. So. Because I used to fish up there. It's the closest place you can fish. Exactly. Yeah. No.

No. No gas powered in these places. Four stars. Prescott is a historian's dream. Oh. Okay. Built as the center of the Southwest. I don't know if that's true.

There's a history of pouring out. There's history pouring out of every building. Although old people are also pouring out of those buildings. Yeah, there's a lot of old people up there. Is that what they said? Absolutely. Half the reviews are just ripping old people apart. Just, I hate old people.

It's just racist old people. That's like half the reviews are just racist old people. I hate them. That's literally half of it. If you are looking for a modern, high-tech city, Prescott is not your place. That is an absolute fact. But if you're looking for nice hiking trails, a beautiful downtown, and no diversity, you've found your next vacation getaway. diversity you found your next vacation getaway also it only gets to be about 102 at the hottest point in the summer which is wonderful weather compared to phoenix that's how disturbed arizona

people are just demented in the head we hear 102 and we go oh that's nice i'll bring us i'll bring my flannel with me that could be you get cool insane but that 102 is constant up there. Yeah. Sunstroke lunatics. It's not like two days of it. You know what I mean? No, it's fucking three months of that. It's hot the whole summer, yeah. One star.

Here we go. They do not like this. Quote, this is the most boring, stupid town on the map. Most boring, stupid town. This sounds like a 12-year-old wrote it, and I love it. Californians keep coming and raise our housing prices. We totally love it. There are no jobs here and nothing to do but sit at the square for a drink.

The town keeps adding pointless roads or more car washes, but never actually fix the damaged roads or anything that need actual fixing. If you want to watch weeds and dirt grow, this is the place to be. The town's adding car washes they're adding car washes the town the mayor says i that's it so we passed resolution passed 14 new car washes on the main drag city funding city funded but they shall hire no one okay next all automated people in this research is correct i just registered I was like, didn't I go to that rodeo? I did go.

It was Prescott. You're right. You're absolutely right. I looked at the website. I thought I know they had one. You could have been right, too. You got it. People in this town, 44,837 in the whole area.

Is that right? Yeah, it's grown a lot. I mean, it's grown a lot. It really has, especially when Phoenix got really pricey, too. A lot of people decided that was the time to get away. Retired people decided now's the time to sell my house and move up north. And, yeah. So male, female, way more females than male, over 51% female because it's an elderly population.

Median age, 56.6. Jesus Christ. Old. Every demographic, all the young demographics, all low. All the old demographics, super high. It is 5% 85 and older here. 5%. Wow.

It's normally like less than two. So it's a lot of fucking old people up here. 51% married. There's a little higher divorce rate. What is it? 8% are single with children. So not a real... 8%?

Yeah, this is not a real party town when it comes to that sort of shit. Residents. Of residents. Race in this town, 87.3% white, 0.5% black. You don't see a lot of black people in Prescott. Sounds like Prescott. 1.2% Asian, 0.9% black. You don't see a lot of black people in Prescott. That's a fact.

1.2% Asian, 0.9% Native American, 7.9% Hispanic. So that's about what it looks like up there. 26.2% of the people here are religious. So it's low. That's about half of the norm. It's usually 50%. I'm shocked. Yeah, and it's just the highest i can find is 7.9 percent are

catholic because there's some hispanic people so i mean that's it's 7.9 percent hispanic and 7.9 percent catholic i'm not shitting you exactly is that right swear to god uh 0.2 percent jewish so we missed that one too uh politically in yavapai, and this is a pretty rural place outside of Prescott here, 34.5% voted Democratic in the last presidential election, 63.7% Republican, 1.7% Independent. Unemployment rate is about average. Median household income is $45,190 a year. A little bit lower than the norm, but the cost of living is a know, nothing. But the cost of living is a little bit high. Yeah, it is. Normally, 100 is regular average.

Here, it's 122, and the housing is the high part. Yeah. Median home cost here, Jimmy. Holy shit. You know what this is? It's a lot of people from the Valley or from anywhere else in Arizona having a second home. Oh, yeah. And it drove prices nuts up there.

Well, let's find out how nuts. Median home cost here, $509,900. Oh, God. This is, I mean, it's a quaint little place, but it's a dusty, middle of nowhere fucking mountain town. It's not. That's crazy. To live in Prescott is nuts.

That's insanity. Sedona, I could see for nice houses there that are up in the rocks and all that shit. Flagstaff, yeah. This is crazy. So if we've convinced you, damn it. Oh, boy. 103 sounds better than 112 to you. We have for you the Prescott, Arizona real estate report.

Okay, here we go your average two-bedroom rental is about a thousand ninety two dollars so okay not a lot of rental shit there there's like those little apartments in the main square and then it's all houses so not a lot there here is a two-bedroom one,024 square foot, old, shitty, stinky trailer. This place, you look at it, you see people have been beaten in there a lot. You know what I mean? I can't tell you how many divorces are on this trailer's record, but quite a few. The sliding glass door has that triangle that just doesn't close you know yeah absolutely the bottom's closed but the top has like an inch gap oh god just shadows of past molestations that happen here not good fifty thousand dollars for this thing

so i don't know if that comes with land or what but fifty thousand dollars that's scary here is a house on the side of a mountain literally in in the mountain. So like inside the house, there's like natural rock features that are like actually the mountain. Three bedroom, three bath, twenty six hundred eighteen square foot. It feels kind of like a bunker inside, though, because you're inside of a mountain. So it's it's a little bit. I would love that just for sound. I'd love to put a studio inside the mountain. I feel like it'd be so quiet in there. It'd be a great place for a studio. It's like an old prospector house?

No. God, no. Shit, it's beautiful. It's new and it's got, it's like part of it is in one place and then there's a piece of a mountain and then the rest of the house is on the other side. $879,000 for that. That's how you do it. You spend a lot of money. How do you seal that from the elements? I have no idea. That's how you do it. Oh, boy. You spend a lot of money. How do you seal that from the elements?

I have no idea. That's a good question. Here's a three-bedroom, two-bath. It's shit leaking through the mountain. Yeah, how do you waterproof that? Just a wood chuck pops up. Hey, what are you guys doing? Three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,387 square foot.

It has a gate on the outside that says Foxbriar, Foxbriar, whatever it is. And it's themed. It looks like a part of Disneyland that you're not allowed to go in. It's like an employee only, but it's got a themed thing. It's an Airbnb is what it is. $975,000 for this. Holy shit. So you can run an Airbnb.

It's like a hotel without any services. So it's great. It's easy to do. Anybody can do that. Go and clean it. Things to do here. Oh, Jesus. Here we go.

First of all, there is Prescott Frontier Days, which the rodeo is a big part of here. The rodeo, they're into this. Now, don't be alarmed but uh you can get there early and before the gates open there will be quote mutton busting performances starting at 12 so there is that yeah mutton busting is uh defined here as rodeo's youngest cowboys and cowgirls cinch up their jeans and climb aboard. Climb abroad, it says, actually. But it's fine.

An atypical rough stock animal. Sheep, also known as mutton. While all contestants are winners in the mutton busting competition, the rider who holds on the longest will receive a shiny gold belt buckle. Just what your seven-year-old wants so bad is their own belt buckle. Oh, just what your seven year old wants so bad is their own belt buckle. Yes. Best mutton buster around Prescott parts. And the age, the qualifications are you got to be between four and seven years old and weigh under 55 pounds. In other words, I dieted.

They'd let me ride. I think so. We'll just squeeze you down. Get some meth in me. Yeah, there you go. And they get you a nice belt buckle. Then there's the rodeo dance there's a rodeo dance kick up your boots and join local musicians oh that's a bad sign for multiple nights of rodeo dance fun all three nights this is james this is in the parking lot of bucky's yeah oh and i know yeah you put up a big white tent this is bad it gets so bad

all three nights feature music by quote hardest working entertainer sky conwell oh no he needs to work harder because i never heard of him never heard you a little bit harder country music is sky's roots his band lonesome valley plays popular country dance hits that span decades so he sings cover but yeah no playing everybody else's shit and that's why you're not that's why you're not famous sky that's the one uh there's the happy hearts rodeo come out and watch special needs youngsters 5 to 12 be rodeo stars at the happy hearts rodeo this sounds dangerous i'm but yeah um for that they have barrel racing yeah goat tie live horseback uh roping and then barrel riding which i hope they have safety precautions i don't want these kids getting hurt worse but hey good for them they need a seat

belt on that thing right i don't know that scares the shit out of me. Good for you, kids. Get in there. So Whiskey Row Boot Race. What is that? 100-yard dash down historic Whiskey Row in Prescott, just down the street, down the main drag. The yearly race is a reenactment of the historical foot race of years earlier, but with an added twist. The contestants are required to wear cowboy boots during their dash, keeping up with the Western atmosphere. Protestants are required to wear cowboy boots during their dash, keeping up with the Western atmosphere. And it's children in their parents' cowboy boots, like falling in the streets and scraping their knees a lot. That's all it is.

Perfect. Then you can do the, by the end of this, you feel like you need to cleanse your soul after something that you've seen all this. So you've got to go to Cowboy Church after that. What? Cowboy Church. Join cowboys and cowgirls for a western style church service at Prescott Rodeo Grounds. What is that? They feed you beans during it? What the fuck makes it western themed?

Honestly. Get a scoop of ranch beans? Yeah. Pile in the pew. And Noah said, where the hell them damn steer at? It's the only damn animal I give a shit about on this boat. You heard him? That's right.

Western church. Western church. I don't know. All right. Then there's going to be the Festival of Trees. This is a totally separate thing. Okay. Festival of Trees.

This is when they have the Christmas bullshit. Yeah. And a shitload of terrible bands, it sounds like here. I don't know the Christmas bullshit. Yeah. And a shitload of terrible bands. It sounds like here. I don't know. And I guess. Yeah. I'll do half hour sets.

That's a bad sign. Yeah. The Talbot Brothers. Oh, Steffi Lee and the Lullaby League. Nope. Ponderosa Groove. Nope. I don't.

These are local bands. The Cross-Eyed Possum oh i'll watch that i was gonna say i kind of out of curiosity i at least have to see what's going on there two songs out of me for sure yeah yeah yeah and they better both be about possums rumbly if they're both about possums you got yourself a new fan. I'm going to listen to this shit. Cross-eyed possum. Cross-eyed possum. There's all of that shit. So find yourself there.

You got to get down there. Oh, wow. And then crime rate in this town. What we're interested in here, property crime is about average, which makes sense because there's a lot of drunk fucks walking around that town, pissing in the street, fighting. Terrible problem with drugs up there. Oh, it's Arizona. It's a terrible. Yeah. Yeah.

In the middle of the night after hours, all the people that work at the bars do this thing called P Live where they go to this fucking rundown, shitty barracks area. It's an old industrial park. And then one of the people that works at a bar is a DJ, inevitably and they spin music while these people just do drugs all night and then they go home go to sleep and go back and serve the next day it's crazy this town is full of chlamydia i feel like just teeming with it uh violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime here is right about average as well. Slightly below, but just about average. So there you go.

It's a small town that's got a lot of tourists coming in and out, a lot of people passing through, going up and down the 17 and shit like that. So in that setting, let's talk about a murder, shall we? Yeah. Let's do this because, whoa. A few things here. Some of the stuff in this, a couple of good sources here. One was a book by Caitlin Rother, R-O-T-H-E-R, called That No One Can Have Her. That's the name of the book.

And there's also some good stuff from a CBS 48 Hours thing that they did on this. So got to give credit where credit's due for the info comes from. So let's go back. The story takes place in 2008 and we'll kind of figure out where these people are in 2008, go back, tell you how they, how they got there.

And then we'll go over this. So let's talk about Carol Kennedy here. All right. Now, Carol Kennedy, she's got teenage kids. She's been married for 25 years. Okay. Um, Carol Kennedy, she's got teenage kids. She's been married for 25 years. You know, she's we'll talk about her. She's known as and this is how she's described by her friend, a gentle, loving, open hearted soul, a devoted mother, a gifted teacher, therapist and artist, a role model and a mentor often described as, quote, lighting up a room with her benevolent force. So, yeah, right away, we're worried about her in this in this story.

Immediately, we're worried about a lot of a lot of jobs. Yeah. Luckily, on this show, though, you never know someone who light up, you know, everyone says lights up the room. They might end up killing eight people. We have no idea on this show. This show is also paint a room red. It's all curveballs here.

She's an artist, but only in blood. You never know. But no, everybody says she's a wonderful, kind, compassionate person. There's not a person who says that here, anything else but that. She's from Prescott? No, no. She's from around. Her family lives in Tennessee at this point.

She taught courses like yoga psychology and painting from the heart and dream work. These are the names of some of these courses for 11 years at Prescott College. And all the students loved her. They loved her. She's the type

of teacher that is very helpful, is, you know, feels like she's paying attention to the kids. Part of the curriculum. Yeah. She's an art teacher and that kind of teacher. So it's not like algebra. So you can be a little more, you know. Outgoing.

Yeah. And connect to the students a little better and shit like that. Uh, from two in 2008 though, she's working at a, as a therapist at this point at Pia's place, which is an extended care treatment facility run by women for women. It's on the outskirts of downtown Prescott there. Um, yes, it's women in recovery and she treats like for different substances and things like that. Uh, and she would treat them also for depression, PTSD, sexual trauma, codependence, sex addictions. She was running the gamut. And she was one of the people

here. The goal here was to, because I guess they would try to get to the heart of the issues of why you have these addiction problems. They'd try to delve deep into all that sort of thing. And Carol was a major part of this organization here. She's also an artist, and she really likes printmaking, which is kind of everything mixed into one.

That can be painting. That can be drawing. It can be pieces cut out. It could be anything in doing all this. And so she does this for like hours. This is her kind of passion on the side, her hobby, you know, that sort of shit here. She's married as of 2008, when it begins anyway. She is married to a man named Steve DeMocker.

That's her husband. They got married in 1982. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case,

covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor.

I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up

to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early

and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They've been married for 25 years now. Steve is known, everybody says the same thing about him. He's a real smart guy, real accomplished guy, athletic, charming, intelligent. That's how he's a real smart guy uh real accomplished guy um athletic charming intelligent that's how

he's described by everybody um that nice yeah i mean it's it's they're really um seems like the whole package yeah and she had a carol got married and her first marriage didn't last it was a quick little short-lived marriage no kids or anything it happens you know what i'm saying so then she meets him and they get married in 1982 and this is you know she thinks now she's really nailed it she found somebody who's got their shit together funny too god we don't know if he's funny he ends up being like a stockbroker so i'm going to assume not he's not funny probably not funny yeah if you know it's between fun and funny and he's probably fun in that uh he can buy nice things yeah you can buy like jet skis and go out on the lake with them but outside of that that's

fun but he's not real funny about it so okay they uh they're they said they were soul mates they got married uh but it didn't they despite having two kids over the next few years here, the marriage kind of gets bumpy because Steve cannot stop having affairs. Steve has a lot of affairs, and his affairs are so blatant that Carol finds out about them most

of the time. Well, at least some of them. She hopes it's most of the time because she finds out about a lot of them, so if there's one she doesn't know about, holy shit, Steve, what are you doing? So that's the thing. And Steve is one of these guys that thinks, well, since I'm desirable, I should sling cock in every direction. There's a lot of guys I know like that that think because they're desirable, they can't waste this cock they got. That's what it is.

Like everybody wants a piece of it. Why don't I just keep it? because they're desirable they can't waste this cock they got that's what it is like everybody wants a piece of it when i just keep it and it's a shame it's a shame would you do that it's because i care about others that i i want them to have this wonderful implement that's joe kennedy used to tell his boys all the time get laid as much as you can that's yeah well that was just old timey though in the 40s and 50s that was what you were considered to do it was like you do whatever you do what you do something on the side but you keep it respectful you know you know you don't flaunt it you know you do it out of town you do it over here that was like the old-timey way of going about things but meanwhile everybody knew oh everybody knew this is the 80s and 90s though by then you were supposed to

not cheat on your wife or get divorced we went beyond that by the 80s and 90s, though. By then you were supposed to not cheat on your wife or get divorced. We went beyond that by the 80s. Yeah, there was a lot of settlements where they took a lot from men for that shit. Yeah, yeah. And they went, hey, maybe we should not cheat. Maybe we should stop this. Yeah. Or they're more careful about it anyway.

So Steve is the oldest of nine children. Oh, my. Which is a – that's a really interesting role for somebody to be the oldest of such a brood of kids. When you see the oldest of a brood of kids that's big, they're always either smoking crack when they're 12 or they're beyond their years mature. Like they're 35-year-olds when they're 14. A lot of them have a nice uh superiority complex about them too because they're like always in charge at home so they yes and they're told the leadership role everywhere yeah they're they're the smart one have you ever seen that um awful sister wives show no oh god jimmy jesus christ oh god i don't

know what it is but somehow i've heard all about it yeah it's it's it's so fucking weird it's a mormon thing where the guy has a bunch of wives right yes he has four wives here but it's not they're like they're like mormon but they're not they're like and they get along together it's weird bro it's real weird they live in like four separate houses and like he doesn't even have a house he just sleeps in a different house all the time with, you know, one day over here, one day over there. He's got like his clothes spread out. So expensive. It's not only expensive, exhausting.

This guy like, yeah, I don't know what he's thinking and I don't know what they're thinking. Obviously, we're like it's oh, it's the weirdest group of people ever. But I look at it and I go, this is creepy, but it's not like Warren Jeffs where everybody's of age. They tell the kids you don't have to do this and you don't even have to be Mormon. You can do whatever you want. So as long as everybody can do what they want, I don't really give a shit what people do. It's just fucking weird on a social level. It's just weird to watch.

Anyway, their oldest oldest kid because there's like 17 kids in the house or some crazy shit so their oldest kid is this kid he acts like he's 45 years old he acts like he acts like an annoyed dad at like 17 like they all go the kids go on like a road trip together and he's he's like yelling at him he's like listen you need to do this and you need and he sounds just like a 35 year old dad who has had enough and he's fucking don't make me pull this car over i swear to christ that seems like torture to do to kids it's really weird so steve is the mentor and role model to his siblings they all look every one of the siblings say, wow, he's the guy.

They all look up to him. Dad's too busy making more of us. He's making a lot of us here. And everybody in the family, good educations. Parents have college educations. They're an accomplished family. A little bit of money, all that sort of thing. But Steve, they said, stood out for the fact that he was smarter than the other kids, it seemed,

and also the fact that he, on multiple occasions, saved people's lives from shit. On one point, they were, I guess, whitewater rafting, and Steve jumped in, scaled a steep cliff to save an injured woman and flipped his own kayak to pull another woman out of a churning whitewater rapid situation this was like in the same month he did this save two people's lives so different occasions different occasions save two people's lives thank god he was kayaking right he's a strong swimmer swimmer he was a you know strong young guy and he could do it so yeah he did that so his brothers and sisters think he's like a superhero i mean they look up to him like nothing else i just you know a lot of times an older

sibling you look up to him anyway if they're not a piece of shit but if they're actually good at something or decent and you go wow this guy's great literally actively saving lives like people people tell you you saved my life you know and's great. He's literally actively saving lives. People tell you, you saved my life. You're like, eh, not really. Yeah, whatever. That's actually saving a lot of people. Yeah, you were drowning, and now you're not. So there you go.

It's better now. You had water in your lungs, and now it's out. That's good. His sister Mary said, quote, he's a fun-loving person. He wanted to have fun, and you just always wanted to be around him. So his brother michael said he taught me how to canoe and swim and ride a bike he was just the best big brother you could ever ask for uh his other sister sharon said he's a very gentle non-violent guy so what a good guy

he is here just so far yeah wonderful so yeah they got married october 10th 82 they end up having two kids they have katie and then in 1992 they have charlotte so when they're going through their divorce charlotte's only 16 okay katie's going off to college but charlotte is only 16 so that makes it leave prescott to go to college that makes it difficult yeah the kids are they all want to get go out of state they want to get away from here which if you grew up there you'd want to get the fuck out of there too you'd go okay it would just it would feel claustrophobic after a while as it closed in on you yeah because it's there's nothing around it it's just so like town doesn't town doesn't necessarily grow grow it's just like the area where people are at just got more dense so it's not like there's the

boundaries are further out it's just there's more and more are at just got more dense. So it's not like the boundaries are further out. It's just there's more and more houses. So it feels like it's closing in more. And a few more houses out in the woods. That's all. They build out there on those windy roads. And you're getting bigger. Yeah.

So it really even feels smaller. Feels extra small. In 1995 here, he switches jobs. Steve switches jobs. He was in academics before that he was a professor and then he switched to investment brokering which is you're you're going now i'm going to try to make money is what you're saying there uh he wanted to continue to help people he said just in a different way just in a way that makes me a shitload of money. I'd like to help myself as well.

I'd like to work when I help someone. There's also commission on it. Like I help all these kids. I get nothing extra. And that's what it is. What am I getting off these kids? I make no commission off this. Hey, kids.

Not a one. Any of you go out there. You're a success. Five percent comes back. You understand? Five percent. Grad school. I get another two. That's it. So five percent grad school i get another two that's it so five percent of

career earnings i get so uh the problem is his friends say he becomes kind of an asshole the more money he makes that's weird um yeah strange right they said he becomes materialistic and manipulative they say his personality his tastes and his spending habits changed uh there he started to make about a half million dollars a year oh wow in the 90s too so that's that's big fucking money man that's doing great a half million dollars a year is great now but in the 90s it's even better you know so yeah they're saying ever since then when that started happening he really just became a different guy and to be like a broker type of guy, you kind of have to be an asshole. There's really – they're known for that.

Wall Street guys are known as douchebags because it's like you have to have – you almost have to be like a quarterback or like a fighter pilot. You have to have like this crazy lack of memory, arrogance. You have to think everything you do is going to be successful or else you'll just sit there crippled with indecision. So you have to be a lunatic. When you take a job that's, I mean, when you hear somebody's a fucking investment banker or an investment broker, you imagine the guy's got a little bit of money.

It makes money, that's for sure. But when you take a job like that that's geared towards making money and then when money does come, it's certainly going to change you. Like if you take that job hoping for money and then no money comes, it's going to change you, but it might make you much cooler. Absolutely. Yeah. But then when the money comes, it's going to turn you into a complete asshole. And who you're hanging out with, too.

Yeah. Think about if you're a professor, you're hanging out with college kids. So you're kind of staying with a younger crowd and you're whatever. You're having your mind kind of open to new shit all the time. Whereas if you're hanging around with other douchebag investment brokers and on top of that, they're rich asshole clients that you have to hang out with, impress, play golf with and all that kind of shit. You're going to turn into a douche. It's just the way it is. So by the early 2000s carol is kind of fed up

with her husband here she's kind of had it um he has affairs like crazy the more money the more affairs is how it worked too i don't know if he can afford to go places and hide his affairs better or what um money's an aphrodisiac james her friend said about this whole situation quote oh my god talking about the marriage toward the end she was like you know i think i've counted 17 affairs he's had that she knows about wow that she knows about so what's the percentage that he's actually getting caught on these affairs you know what i mean like how many years have they been married 25 that's like holy fuck man and that's a lot like i said that's only the ones that she knows about right including would you like to hear how insulting they were here god how close to the family oh way too close especially close to her so close this woman her hand was inside her at one point

probably oh no uh the one woman is her midwife jesus who he fucked while she was pregnant while carol was pregnant he was banging the midwife oh dear lord dude that's extra stank on it if you're gonna cheat on your spouse like whatever that shitty thing to do, it's between you two, whatever. But that's extra shitty. Like, don't be a dick like that. Don't fuck the woman that's helping the woman that you put in this situation. And then, well, what about her? She found out about this and they were together for another 15 years.

So what does that say? Yeah. and they were together for another 15 years so what does that say yeah i mean jesus christ how quickly would you have been have a knife in your shoulder and your chest if you fucking did that you know what i mean good lord you get killed for shit like that and she was like it's okay so her friend said she loved him yeah that's all that's obvious she said he's very charming you know he will just tell a woman exactly what she wants to hear i don't know what what do you say 17 times 17 the midwife is the one where it's like you what what could they possibly want to hear that would get that over with a woman you know what i mean

oh well he said she felt bad about something and that you know he was helping her out and then you know she was going to kill herself then you know she was gonna kill herself and then he said no no and his penis saved her what do you say you gotta assume he cheated on her once and like apologized said it'll never happen again the next one probably happened three years later two years later you know what i mean and then and then three two something like that and then it probably they all just started happening yeah right i probably had to have six or eight in the last. And then once he's got a bunch of money, I think he thinks he's above the law, too, with this type of shit. What are you going to do?

Leave? I got all the money. And now he can afford hotel rooms to have all these little tris and all this type of shit. So and when you get caught 17 times and there's no consequences also, at what point do you just go? You don't even hide it that much anymore like who cares she'll get over it it's 17 times yeah i mean jesus soprano wow he didn't even have 17 girlfriends over the course of the sopranos he had like three six seasons he had three yeah three girlfriends you know come on so gum you know, that's different.

He's just banging whoever. So, but during all this marriage, there is no, I mean, there's, they argue, obviously, he's banging everybody in Prescott pretty much. He's like anybody above 4,000 feet of elevation. I've had my penis inside in this state. That's another thing about that town is that on the weekends, there's so many fucking turnover, like in and out of towns. Oh, yeah.

He could have banged anybody. Oh, God. All over the place. That's what I mean. Get himself a room at Bucky's and really go to town. Does that have rooms even? I don't know. It does.

It's a hotel and casino. Oh, it's a hotel and casino. Oh, man. And there's a Hotel St. Michael right on the corner. Get yourself a room at Bucky's, folks. That's something. Just throw a dick at Bucky's. Yep. yourself a room at Bucky's, folks. That's something. Just throw a dick at Bucky's. Yep.

Laying pipe at Bucky's. That's what you're doing. Bucky's, if you don't know, it's like you go through the town. Then when you're done with the town, you pass like four little strip malls with terrible-looking Chinese food restaurants in them. And then there's this just hill sticking up of nowhere. You have to drive straight up. Right atop it. And right atop it is Bucky's, which is a really shitty slot casino. Just hill sticking up of nowhere. You have to drive straight up. Right atop it.

And right atop it is Bucky's, which is a really shitty slot casino with apparently a hotel as well that you can get. Not good. It's bad stuff. It's bad stuff. Not great. So there's fighting during the marriage, but there's never any violence. No violence, no restraining orders no none of that shit it's just they argue yeah they talk about it they get over it they move on that's yeah they're just carolyn goes moves along they're okay well he's moving on all over the carol yeah

carol straight he's done and moved on he's moved on 17 times yeah Yeah, he's really moving on. So finally in 2007, in 2003, Carol says she's had enough and they get separated. So this is their first kind of separation. Now, once they're separated, now they're fighting a little bit more than even with the affairs because now they're fighting over who could and should spend what because while there's an official separation, I know in Arizona because I not only have been divorced in Arizona, but I also was a process server, so I've served these papers a million times. You have to keep everything the same during that time period. You can't cut someone's insurance off or peel them off the bank account or some shit like that.

So this is a very contentious time because now they have to decide who's going to spend what while they're not even together. Right. So people fight about money when they're in the same house. Imagine if they're, you know, separate. Yeah.

Um, you know, why, why'd you spend that much on dinner is worse if you didn't even eat it. You know, like, yeah, it does sting a little more when,

when you're hungry. It's one thing if it was food that you both enjoyed. But so they also had to divide their assets. They have credit card debt, had to divide that. What kind of alimony are we going to do? Who do the girls want to live with? Because they're teenagers now or one's 11 and one's like 14. So it's it's a lot.

One's like 14, so it's a lot. So it grew so contentious that a lot of her friends, Carol's friends, were worried that she might take her own life at some point because she was so depressed. And they said even during this time, her art all changed. Everything got all dark and moody. Her colors changed. Like, it really, you could see it on her. She was just a completely different person. Dark dragons eating people. So 2007, she finally files for divorce officially.

So that's a long time of being separated, though. Four years of fighting for four years. Yeah, that's a lot of disagreements. Absolutely. Now, Charlotte is 16 years old during this time period. So Charlotte is 16 years old during this time period, and it sucks for kids with this sort of thing because kids, they don't know everything that happens behind the scenes. They only can go by what they've seen or what they've heard, and they want both their parents to be good people. They don't want to hear bad things about anybody. yeah they don't want to hear bad things about anybody when it's an ugly divorce like this they take every piece of everything and set a value to it yes and you have half that value

uh yeah or or if you're getting if one person's getting this desk then that person gets half the value of that desk towards something else in the house and you're literally arguing over the fucking silverware yeah you are it's so ugly and to do that in front of kids i can't remember what it's from but they're talking about how you know that coffee table that you hate now you're going to argue in five years you'll be arguing over that coffee table that neither of you want that neither of you even like that will be you'll you'll die on that hill to get that shit coffee table that you hate i don't even remember what that's from but it's so true spider it's true it's the amount of fighting i hear from people that do this shit so um 16 year old charlotte though she she's always been kind of really her dad's closer to her dad a little bit

so um her and even her older sister she was still with more than katie she was kind of a daddy's girl but charlotte accused her mother of dragging the divorce out because this whole these all over these years it just it's taken their they're trying to work out a settlement and they're not finding it steve's trying to low ball her and she's trying to get more so you know they're going back and forth so she's never been in a relationship and had her heart broken she doesn't understand this and also haven't hasn't probably divided 25 years of financial assets either which is also complicated but also carol feels like she deserves things and she's owed something because this marriage is being dissolved because this man fucks everybody fucks everybody i just want my fair share and he's probably trying to get it all from her no shit so she says that she why she's like yells at her mom why do you why won't you accept the offers

dad's trying to work this out so carol got upset one time during an argument that charlotte uh i'm sorry carol got so upset she jumped out of the car in the middle of an intersection and walked away oh my god what's deep yeah so um it so it got strained between Charlotte and her mother, so much so that Charlotte moved into Steve's condo with him at one point. And Charlotte complained that if Carol continued to reject Steve's offers, her problem, she said, is that there's not going to be any money left for her to study. She wants to study pre-med at an out-of-state college and become a neurosurgeon, she said. Okay, Charlotte.

She said, Ma, you keep doing this. There's not going to be money left. You're paying lawyers. You're doing all this. Where's my tuition money? I don't know, Charlotte. Get a fucking job. Yeah, sure.

At 16, though, your parents are adults. Yeah. And you're like, fuck them. My life is terrible. It's just, that's being 16. You're not capable of seeing. That's a fascinating reason to be upset. It is.

That's why I was like, wow. That's a very selfish fucking thing of a 16-year-old to say. I understand that you guys, your lives are literally tumbling down a hillside to your you know finances are fucked up you're fighting this marriage nothing's working you're now middle age you got to go back into the world but god damn it i had a dream school to do my pre-med at and it's just messing the whole thing up is a little selfish, yeah. And my sister's doing fine. Her college is paid for.

I should get mine paid for, too. Yeah, that's the thing. She wrote her mother at one point, Not only is the paying of your bills hurting and restricting my immediate life, but now my future and the quality of my education and degree is in jeopardy. She said, it's hard to realize that my mom, someone who I unconditionally have loved all my life, may damage the rest of my life. The privilege is oozing from the bladder. That is a teenage guilt trip right there.

Yeah, it is. Holy shit. A spoiled ass teenage derp. No one can lay a guilt trip like a 16-year-old girl, first of all. That is, wow, teenage derpy. No one can lay a guilt trip like a 16 year old girl, first of all. That is wow. Teenage guilt trip. Teenage guilt trip. That's that song, right?

She is kind of an asshole, man. She needs to calm down. She's kind of a 16 year old, I feel like. She really is a 16 year old. How many 16 year olds have you known that you don't go? He's kind of an asshole. Even when you were 16,

you knew your friends were all assholes. My son's 14 and he's an asshole. Huge asshole. Yeah. That's what happens. That's what she said. She also said after that, Charlotte said she was unwilling to spend time with her mother until the divorce was resolved.

So she was holding out her daughterly affection until you two work out your divorce. College is OK. So that'll make you like paint in dark colors. Probably like this is stressful. This is a lot here. Carol would cry to her friends that Steve had turned their daughter against her. Yep. Now, Steve, while they're separated here, Steve has a girlfriend that he's openly with, but obviously he's got a girlfriend.

I wonder who he's cheating on her with, with 16 people. Her name is Renee Gerard, and she said, though, he often spoke fondly of his ex-wife, Carol. She said he didn't seem to have any content contentiousness for her there was no you know deep-seated hatred or any of that shit that she saw she said i never saw him act violently he's very controlled uh she said he shared a lot about his marriage and he shared it in many stories that were heartwarming and joyful as as and as something that he regretted losing. So he seems sad of the marriage itself. The marriage or like what was the heartwarming part of the part where he was whining and dining other women? Well, no, I think when he got home and explained it, she forgave him.

That was heartwarming and he was also i don't know how how honest he is with his current girlfriend about like she forgave 17 different affairs there so you know so he probably had to substitute that with something heartwarming i would imagine and then retelling of the tale why'd you get divorced i don't know really what could it have been i don't know it's just all heartwarming and shit. Real heartwarming. 25 years of marriage. Super heartwarming and then something else happened. I don't know what the fuck's up. Carol's friend, Jan Wheeler, says she's got a different take.

She says that's bullshit. She said Steve was angry about this divorce. She said, oh, he was furious. He was absolutely furious that she would have the nerve to do anything against him because she never had oh that's the friend that encourages her to do yeah like shit to his car she goes to happy hour with her and just trashes him she's like we'll go key his car right now carol's like no no that's immature and she's like no fuck that how many affairs was it 17 i want you to pee on his hood jen don't give a fuck man yeah uh but she's like, no, fuck that. How many affairs was it? 17? I want you to pee on his hood.

Jen, don't give a fuck, man. Yeah. But she's loyal to her friend. That's another thing. Now, May 27, 2008, the divorce is finally final. It's done. Divorce is finalized in May. And now everything's a little, all the pressure's relieved.

As soon as the divorce is final. Now all of this, because now there's no more negotiating and all that kind of shit. It's like when a baseball player's contract comes up, there's a lot of shit talking back and forth between him and the team and all that. And the second he decides not to sign somewhere else and re-sign with his team, everybody's hugging and kissing and loving. And we knew that he would never leave, and he said, I could never play anywhere else. And that's what happened. He called us cheap bastards for four months but we like him he called us cheap bastards that didn't give a shit about his long-term health and they called him a bum who was lazy and couldn't that's what it was he said he doesn't have a fastball anymore and he said you're you're starving my children yeah it's like an arbitration hearing in baseball.

It's exactly what they do. The team says terrible things about the player that they can never forgive them for. That's how it works every time. Now go out there and win one for the Giffords. Now go out there and put this uniform on and feel great. But there's a new – now it's more comfortable. Now Steve and Carol can kind of be in the same place without that weird tension and shit like that. Yeah. And Carol and Charlotte were making up as well. And Carol and Steve are doing better.

One night they gather at Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix because Katie is going to be sent. She's going to a study abroad program in South Africa. So, yeah, she's going away there. Far, far away from all this crazy shit. So, what's the farthest I can get away from here? She's running Dave Chappelle's plan. She doesn't give a shit. Yeah, she just ran away.

So, they all are there by security as far as you can go. And the family, it's Charlotte's there and Carol's there. Steve's all there. They're all crying when she goes and uh katie says later there was nothing but expressions of love gratitude and happiness we spent about 20 minutes talking about that and crying and giving big group family hugs so that's good they said as katie said as she walked toward the gate she turned and steve um had his arms around carol around Carol and Charlotte and they were all waving goodbye. So nice family thing there. So by late June, July, that sort of deal.

Carol's moving on now. She's she can take a breath now. This all this contentious shit is over. Said contentious like three times. But that's what it is. It's the best way to describe a divorce is this. It's this tension. It's this tension that lasts and it doesn't have ebbs and flows.

It just has escalation. With the earth, there's like all this tension with the plates and there's a big shock and then everything settles down. There's no shock. It's just like you're supposed to just settle down now. Yeah. It's so weird. It's like cracking your neck real good and then it feels better i feel like the divorce like oh god jesus well okay well that feels better actually there's no crack though with the divorce no even when it's settled when it's done and and the paperwork's signed there's

no crack that doesn't feel like it should yeah it does it's like you lit a firework you're you're waiting for it and then it goes in and it's a dud it's like you didn't get any pop but also there's no more tension of waiting for the firework because it's dead so you're stuck damn it so uh the divorce papers are signed carol has a new boyfriend and everything oh yeah she's uh set in an early august she's going to maine with him or july i'm sorry early August. She's going to Maine with him. Or July, I'm sorry. Early July, they're going to Maine, I think, for the 4th or something. So, oh, yeah, for a few days. She's feeling optimistic. She's looking at her future now ahead of her rather than just a divorce proceeding that she's got to fight about on a daily basis.

So it's a different deal. on a daily basis. So it's a different deal. One of her friends here, a longtime friend of hers named Catherine Warnett, she said that I guess Carol had told her that Carol had to decline Steve's offer. Steve said, let's just drive to Phoenix together to see Katie off. And Carol said, no, no, that's okay. I don't need to spend an hour and a half in the car with my ex-husband. Thank you.

I'm good there. I feel you, Carol. carol yeah carol more sympathetic i could not be um so they went separately um and she said that made her feel good to tell him no and drive separately um and um they had a family dinner i guess before they all took off before the katie took off for south africa and everybody said that steve and and Carol were taking pictures of the kids with each other and all that kind of shit. Everything was going well. Carol told her friend Catherine about the airport when they had their arms around each other. For the first time in a really long time, I didn't get totally creeped out. It was okay.

It was just okay, she said. She said, though, of course he had to ruin it. He asked me if I wanted to meet him for coffee. We just got divorced. Why is he asking me to have coffee? I've seen Seinfeld. I know what that means. Yeah, want to have some coffee?

Yeah, that soda machine hasn't been pushed all the way over. It's still rocking back and forth in his mind. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one

and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. She also said that, quote,

he had the audacity to come over. He would stop by. She said that Steve came to the house to plead with her to get back together. Steve? Steve, you have done paperwork. You went four years of paperwork. You have done a lot of paperwork.

You've paid just for the law. We're not wasting this much in legal fees. No, I'm not getting back together just as far as that. We could have bought a fucking summer home for Christ's sake. We could have bought half a main for that shit. Jesus Christ. So she said that she said, quote, that he would have the audacity to propose that we should start dating again and then get married. She said, yeah, let's start dating and get married again.

Like, no, I don't think so. And so Carol said, and for him to think I would actually do that. That's what she told her friend. Yeah. So there's been some weird stuff with Steve lately. Carol told her friends that not only had he stopped by and knocked on the door and shit, but also he'd broken into her house recently. That's weird.

She also was convinced that he'd been hacking into her emails at some point here, and that she feared for her personal safety, she told her friends, because she didn't feel like she was on steady ground. And she said she still considered him the love of her life, but she said that she obviously wouldn't get back together with him.

That's not going to happen. Well, dear, he's stalking you. Yeah, that's the problem here. So finally, July 2nd, 2008 here. It is a Wednesday. It's hot, too. It's almost 100 degrees outside here. Carol and Steve are

exchanging some texts about Katie's car. Katie has a BMW X3, by the way. They're doing great. Wow. Imagine growing up when your dad makes half a million dollars, your mom or whoever makes half

a million dollars a year. What a different life that is. It's a life where you go, don't spend all the money i want to go to fucking berkeley and go be pre-med have you imagine if you told your parents please don't buy that car college fund on your divorce they'd be like son you've never had a college fund not a dime of it We've set nothing aside for you. What we're going to spend here, we never planned on spending on you, giving to you, having you have anything to do with. College fund? Yeah, college.

Playoffs. That is adorable. That is hilarious. This is a completely foreign way to grow up for both of us here. A BMW. X3. She's got a little SUV in the driveway. Jesus Christ. Wow.

Yeah, like she's got two little kids. So this was parked in Carol's garage, and Steve said, I need to come pick up the X3. And he said, when can I collect the keys? She said, you may come out to pick up Katie's car this evening if you'd like. She said, you may come out to pick up Katie's car this evening if you'd like. And she said that she figured he already had the spare key because Katie had left her set at his house. So Carol closed up the office, the Pia's office, at 4.30 p.m. She was talking about her financial shit still because this is still an issue. She agreed to the final settlement, but then she said once she

agreed to it, she realized that she's probably going to have to give up the house. They custom built this house. I can't imagine. It's a nice house, custom built, and now she said she's not going to be able to afford it on everything, on all this shit. So she makes

$24,000 a year on her counseling job. You're not going to keep a custom house with $24,000 a year on her counseling job. Yeah, you're not going to keep a custom house with $24,000 a year. You can't. Just to keep it up is going to cost a fortune. So this is where they've been living forever and ever and ever. So they said she realized she couldn't afford the mortgage payments on her own, especially because Steve had taken out a second mortgage, an equity line, without her knowledge.

What? Not cool. And you're not allowed to do that either in a divorce. Very much so. Really? Like I said, she makes $24,000 a year. She still had to cover taxes and the chunk of money she'd gotten in the divorce. She had to pay taxes on that.

And then also there's credit card debts that they have to split now, most of which were Steve's. And so she's thinking about she's going to be fucked financially here. So she is talking to her friend Catherine on the ride home. Carol stops at the animal hospital to buy special food for her two dogs. I know what that's about. Wow. You can actually buy yours at a store. Mine you have to goddamn order it because no one has it, not the vet, not anybody, because Benny's allergic to everything under the sun.

Everything. Vaughn's there now, too. You saw Benny's allergy thing, right? It was pumpkin, rice, beef. 130-pound booger. Yeah, 150-pound. Jesus Christ. rice a 130 pound booger yeah 150 pound is so jesus christ something's wrong though i don't know how dogs got allergies all of a sudden i've never seen dogs have allergies i don't know he's got he's allergic to everything everything bonkers man uh now the he's got she's need special

food for ike who's a b Boston Terrier with urinary problems. Aw. Because the, Jesus Christ, this poor Boston Terrier at one point had been disemboweled by a javelina. Oh, God damn it. That is a thing up there, man. Oh, yeah, yeah. Those things are vicious. It's a thing in Fountain Hills, for Christ's sake.

Up there, it's every man for himself. These are giant boar with horns on them. They're terrifying. So she's also got another one, too, that kept throwing up. It needs special food. So then she stops at Safeway, gets some groceries. She's making a salad tonight. She usually eats salad for dinner.

Now she has a guest. She has a guy living in the guest house out back. They have a guest house. And there's a guy named Jim Knapp living there. Yeah. Fucking guest house. The kids have beamers Jim Knapp living there. Yeah. Fucking guest house kids. The kids have beamers. What's going on in this household?

It's a lot. So Jim Knapp lives in the guest house out back. They've known each other for a few years. The kids went, her kids and his kids went to school together. So they know each other. And for the past several months, they've been, uh, what's put as supporting each other and for the past several months they've been uh what's

put as supporting each other through their respective divorces he needs a place to crash and all this sort of thing now they sit they spend a lot of their evenings sipping wine and having conversations about their divorces and they always make sure in the books and the articles to always say before they went to their separate bedrooms. They always say like they weren't fucking, though. They keep saying this. But there's some weird stuff going on here. Carol this night chatted briefly with her accountant about the she feels like she got fucked in the divorce.

So they're talking about that. She's she had been talking about reporting Steve to the IRS for tax fraud. Oh, my. Which probably isn't going to help get you your alimony payments, though, I doubt. That's the thing about that. That hurts you is the issue. And she was stressed out from arguing with him about some other shit. So she was costing that.

She was saying, what's it going to cost me to go back to court to tie up some loose ends? Carol then emailed Steve to dispute his claim that she owed him what's going to cost me to go back to court to tie up some loose ends um carol then emailed steve to dispute his claim that she owed him eighty three hundred dollars okay uh refusing to give him a check so he could cover his six thousand dollars and overdue alimony payments to her so yeah she he's like she's saying you owe me six thousand dollars and he's saying well you owe me eighty three hundred so just take it out of that and he's she's saying nah you owe me $6,000. And he's saying, well, you owe me $8,300, so just take it out of that. And she's saying, nah, that ain't going to fucking happen here. Steve said, why don't we just trade checks? I'll give you $6,000.

You give me an $8,300 one. So that was his suggestion. Or you just give me a $2,300 one and we call it even. Let's just do that and save each other the fucking fee of the check even. Steve wrote, or she wrote to Steve, your assertion and information here is inaccurate and incorrect. Oh, boy. That's 6.30 p.m. That's ex-wife language right there.

Educated, smart ex-wife. That's how exes talk to each other, though. They're like real like, I'm going to be, I can be a shithead to you now and not have to be nice and be like really i was thinking it was like this uh so she then you know once that's over with she puts on a lavender tank top some blue shorts and some running shoes and she goes out on a half hour three mile uh stint through the trails yep so um yeah she goes out there and um she um threw the what's all up in the trails. So, yeah, she goes out there and she threw what's all up in the trails behind their house there.

So during her run, she would leave the side door unlocked, usually, which leads out to the backyard and down the steps to the garage where she parks her car. Jesus, this house is great. She was heading east on the trail. She bumped into a couple of neighbors. They were on horseback

because that's the type of place this is hi neighbors on horseback um they sharing the trail with fucking equestrian people just yeah hey and you know them you know horse people super weird leela and marge are the horse people here and She stops for five minutes, chats with them, pets Leela's horse a bit and doesn't get bit. She's lucky there. It's warm, but she said that's why she likes to exercise in the evening.

Arizona, it's so strange in the summer. Everybody does things at 5 o'clock in the morning or 9.30 at night. It hurts outside. Just wait until it 30 at night. There's no, it hurts outside. Just wait until it's dark out. Yeah.

It's a ghost town at one. It really is. She got back to the house and texted Steve again at seven Oh six after she saw no response about the message about Katie's car. So, um, she said, you never replied to let me know if you were coming to get it. So she said it was unlike Steve to not respond quickly he always has his phone with him because he's does work shit even he always keeps like a couple of spare batteries for his phone too remember when you could pop batteries out of phones like pre-iPhone they all had attachable batteries yeah and you

could buy a longer life one fucking extra ones that was great ones that was great you could have like two extra batteries not have to worry about shit it was fantastic so um carol uh after she texted him um uh she said so that's weird so then she texted her friend charlotte at 7 12 how's your oh that not for a friend or daughter charlotte sorry at 7 12 how was your day, darling? She wrote that. And to see if she was asking if Charlotte had started her new job yet. Charlotte said no.

She had to finish training. She's going to start work the next day. 7.36 p.m. Carol puts the cell phone down and grabs her cordless landline phone. Because this is still the end of landline times. And she makes her usual. She makes like a nightly call to her 83-year-old mother in Nashville. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, to make sure she's still alive.

So her mother, Ruth, she checked in with her mother almost every night. Her dad died in March 2006. So, you know, mom's lonely. Yeah, so Carol always calls before 8 p.m. because that's later in the East Coast and it's right before her mother goes to bed. So, yeah, she also chatted with she chatted with her mom. She was also texting Charlotte because there was a quick storm and she was like, oh, wasn't that great? Yeah, it was awesome. And she also always tells her mother and she told Ruth this night because Ruth always says, did you lock the doors and everything like that? Are you secure in your house?

And she said, the dogs are fed. The doors are locked. Everything's fine. Fed dogs, locked doors. We're good. Now, it's kind of isolated where she lives out here, this house. You know, it's a nice area. So her mom worried about that.

It's a half-hour drive from downtown Prescott. It's out there. Half-hour. Half-hour, yeah. So Carol's mother thought, you know, she should be more concerned about living out there by herself, but she said, ah, she's fine. You know, Carol will be like,

I'm fine, Mom, Jesus Christ. You're right. I'm from Tennessee. I'll be all right. I'll be fine. So Carol did change the locks after she filed for divorce, so Steve couldn't just come over with her key. But she suspected that Steve had been climbing in through a back window. Gross.

His name was still on the title. He'd been paying the mortgage during the separation, but the only people with spare keys were her daughters, which, I mean, if they're at his house, he could have made a copy of their key pretty, pretty easily without them knowing it. So Ruth could hear water running in the background while they're on the phone as Carol washed her salad ingredients. And they were discussing which shipping companies to use to send a box to Katie in South Africa because it's more expensive to pay for extra luggage than it is to ship shit. So they're going to ship shit instead. Freight shipping. Yep.

So then she texted Steve. She had texted Steve earlier about a follow-up on the DHL shipping information because I got a price from these people and all that kind of shit. So the sun sets at 7.46 p.m. that night, so it's getting dark. And Carol tells her mother that she and Steve were still arguing about money and all that kind of shit, but she said, I'll be fine. It's okay. She'd want her mom to get worried. She said, you know, Mom, this is July 2nd, and there's been no alimony payment made into my account. So Ruth said she heard the water stopped running at one point, so she must have been done watching the vegetables. And she was wondering if maybe Carol had walked down the hallway with her cordless phone near the laundry room where the dogs, crates, and food were.

So she's thinking of that because I guess Carol had been using a back bedroom as an office since Charlotte moved out. back bedroom as an office since Charlotte moved out. So also maybe she went back there to check on the dogs, but Ruth said she didn't recall any dogs barking in the background or anything. So when she figures she walked out of the kitchen. So Carol said, I suppose I'll call my lawyer tomorrow. Then she said,

well, as like, you know, kind of a, anyway, like a going to get off the phone now type thing. Then at seven fifty nine p.m. Ruth heard her daughter say she heard Carol say, quote, oh, no. OK, now Ruth will remember it and tell it in the beginning that she screamed, oh, no.

But then she said that, no, she doesn't think she screamed screamed it she just she just said that because she was very anxious ruth will say the mom she said that she was um she said she used it as if uh um she thought it was like uh oh no not again she said like that like oh no like one of those like if you spilled you know you had a thing of paint and you turned around and knocked it over, you go, oh, no. God damn it. Now I got to spend. Kick the dog food bag. Now, yeah, stepped in the dog water or something.

Now I got to spend 20 minutes cleaning this shit. Oh. Not again. You kick a bowl of dog water. How long do you stare at it for? I stare at it for like, I don't know, 15 seconds. Just like, you motherfucker. It's all over my shoe my dad puts his

cat's dish right next to the entryway of the kitchen nobody's gonna look down at that perfect hey everybody's kicking that all over the kitchen i kicked it five times i've been to my dad's house six times every time i'm there i launch that cat's dick it's gotta happen like why is that there why are you keeping this here and since the third time yeah i kick it and then i just look at and i go i can't believe i did i know it's there why don't you keep it just on top of the fridge with the door closed so if you open it it falls like it's a booby trap why don't we do that so then there was no sound at all. Nothing.

Just, oh, no. Then in silence. So Ruth didn't hear the phone drop. She didn't hear a click. Just silence. And she was gone. The phone was hung up. But Ruth didn't remember hearing like her hanging up or anything.

And she said she never would hang up on her. She'd always say, I love you, and then hang up at the end of the call. So she's saying, Ruth is on the other end saying carol are you okay what's the matter what happened what carol carol and now it's she gets the line is dead so carol uh ruth calls carol back uh tries calling bats back several times with the just rings and rings and rings so it's not off the hook right it's just rings and rings it's. So it's not off the hook. It's just rings and rings. It's not like an open thing.

Well, on a cordless, though, I think it would, once the other side hung up, I think it would kind of beep, beep, beep itself off. I don't remember. I think it went eh, eh, eh, eh. Yeah, I don't remember. Yeah, I'm really trying to get back into VTech mode. You know, eh, eh, eh. Or it went. I don't have a VTech owner's manual in front of me.

I have a Cobra. There you go. So the answering machine didn't pick up either, which is strange. That's odd. So Ruth knew something was up here, but she's in Tennessee, so she didn't know what the fuck to do. She's 83 and in Nashville. There isn't a lot you can do here. So she called Steve and left a message on his answering machine asking him to go check on Carol. Hey,

I know your ex and everything, but go over there. Charlotte heard the phone ring and looked at the caller ID and saw it was Grandma, but her and her boyfriend were playing video games, so she didn't pick it up. She let it go to voicemail. That's how that worked. Because Charlotte's boyfriend, Jake, lives there now at the condo.

Really? He moved in yesterday. On July 1st, he moved in. His parents kicked him out. Carol offered him the guest house, but he said, no, I'm going to go over there so I can bang your daughter more. If I'm in the guest house. With Jim or sleep in your daughter's thighs.

I think i'll be over there i'm gonna be over at steve's house there yeah so steve lets this 16 year old kid move in wow no that's not happening so he's anyway a cool dad yeah exactly he's a divorced dad going hey it's cool yeah you don't say shit when i bring chicks over every night so um she gets no. No. So she leaves a message there. Ruth does. Then she tries calling Steve's cell phone, but it goes straight to voicemail.

So she leaves a message. She said, Steve, this is Ruth Kennedy in Nashville. I was on the phone with Carol and she screamed and said, oh, no, and I can't get her to answer me back. I wonder if you could see what if you could find out and let me know something. So she chatted briefly by phone with Carol's tenant, Jim Knapp as well, and she thought she would try to, not

right then, but she had talked to him before, so she tried to, she called directory assistants to try to get his number, and it was no help. He doesn't have his own landline. He just shares carols because he lives in a guest house or whatever. So he's Kato-ing the situation.

So Ruth didn't know what to do, so she called the police. Good call, Ruth. Didn't know what else to do. I love a good old lady answering machine message too. Yeah. I love Ruth Kennedy. Not only Ruth Kennedy, Ruth Kennedy from Nashville. Yeah.

You were my mother-in-law for 25 years. For 25 years. 25 years. You could just say, hi, how many other 83-year-old ladies are leaving him voicemails, number one? Number two, Ruth would be fine. Shaky-voiced old women named Ruth. How many are calling you? How many?

How many shaky-voiced old women named Ruth are calling up your fucking phone? And then Kennedy really is specific. Okay, that's my ex-wife's name. And then from Nashville. In case you're like, is that that old lady Ruth Kennedy I know from San Diego that I hang out with? Oh, that's my ex-mother-in-law from Nashville. In case you're like, is that that old lady Ruth Kennedy I know from San Diego that I hang out with? There's, oh, that's my ex-mother-in-law from Nashville. And who's asking about Carol, too, because other people would do that. Surprise, she didn't throw her middle name in there.

Ruth Ann Kennedy here. Worked for the city schools for 35 years. Husband Harold died in 2006. Got the cheap watch to prove it. 4260 Elmont Drive. In case you know any other Ruth Kennedys from Nashville.

473416. In case you know a lot of other roots in Nashville. She calls the police. The house though is outside the jurisdiction of the Prescott Police Department. Really? So Yavapai fucking County? It's Williamson Canyon or something it's known as.

Oh. So it's right there, though. There's not a town. It is Prescott. But it's outside the jurisdiction of the police. So the dispatcher said Ruth needed to call the Yavapai County Sheriff's office and gave her the number can there be some kind of connect through thing that probably happens quite often right enough to have a button this was a crazy phone call i've never had this phone call with my daughter ever again it's never dropped like this send police i'll tell you what

that's not our jurisdiction i'll send the sheriff why no you're gonna i'll give you his number here ruth from nashville i got your no i got his number so she's she said listen i'm calling from nashville um this is what happened uh is there anything you can do can you go check i'm just at my wits end and the dispatcher said now did you call her or did she call you when this occurred that makes no difference, by the way. They had a 20-minute conversation beforehand. So she didn't call. Well, it depends on if it was outgoing or incoming, then we can't just import problems.

So if it was an outgoing call, then yeah, that's our problem. If you called her, you're going to have to get a hold of Tennessee, I feel like, because they're going to – there are gonna have i feel like they're gonna have jurisdiction i'm gonna i'll give you their number tell you what problems here lady you ever seen the first 48 that's i'll call one of them fellas up for you there you go there's other people in prescott i feel like would handle it oh don't you export your fucking problems to us. Goddamn Phoenix problems. Probably ain't even from up here, goddamn it. Send us your goddamn Tennessee troubles. Wait till you hear how fucking, like the detectives do a pretty good job, but there are some seriously incompetent parts of this entire investigation that are bonkers. So Ruth said she called me tonight and we,

she calls me every night because I'm 83 years old and she worries about me. So the dispatcher said, uh-huh. She's yawning. You see, so Ruth says, I haven't, haven't been able to get a hold of,

to answer her phone back. So I'm, you know, afraid that something bad's happened. And they said, well, who does your daughter live with? And Ruth said she's recently recently divorced. She's alone. The dispatcher said, do you believe there's any reason that she would be concerned if her husband, her ex-husband came back? Ruth said, I don't think so. She said, oh, I don't think so. I don't think

it's that kind of thing. So the police said, all right, we'll send somebody out to check on her and we'll have them give you a call. So Ruth says, please send somebody right away and said, if you happen to get a hold of her and she's OK, can you call us back and let us know? Yeah. And, you know, they said, sure, no problem. So welfare check here. Seventy four hundred block of bridal path is where this is. Call for a welfare check here, 7,400 block of Bridal Path is where this is. Call for a welfare check. The police goes out on the police radio right after the mom's emergency call.

The sheriff's deputy on duty, a deputy's on duty, heard a guy get dispatched. Matthew Tainter gets dispatched, a deputy here. And they hear him arrive at the house 38 minutes later after being dispatched there. Super swift. Well done. Okay. Now, this is wild.

A retired investigator for Yavapai County says later on, quote, they have a huge, huge area to cover. For a simple welfare check, 30 minutes is actually a decent response time okay if you find 30 minutes to go check and see if someone's alive a decent response time you're fucking doing it wrong okay i get yavapai county is a big place it is a big place it's yavapai county is the size of massachusetts is it really it is so it's a, giant place. The problem is most of the people live in very small places. Most of that place is mountains and deserts. So you don't have to patrol the top of a mountain for the most part unless someone's stuck up there or something.

And then you get the helicopter. So shut the fuck up. If you've got area that is County Island that's still part of, I mean, technically part of Prescott, but it's County Island, you should be going there faster than fucking the middle of the woods. You know, like that seems like they're probably priority areas. Stick to the edges where the population is. Right. Where more people live and shit like that because there isn't a lot around that. There really isn't. I'm sure there's several homes near her.

I mean, within shouting distance. She walked past horse-riding neighbors. They're there. So they don't get there until 8.52. Huge, huge area to cover. But here's another reason why it took 38 minutes is because Deputy Tainter's arrival was delayed. You know why it was delayed? What was he doing?

Because he pulled the car over that was in front of him couldn't couldn't help but make a fucking this is the if you're in northern arizona these motherfuckers are up your ass for traffic shit this twat this fucking dipshit deputy fucking taint fuck over here has a welfare check. An 83 year old woman is worried her daughter might have got a fucking heart attack or something and someone came in and killed her. And this guy's like, let me pull them over. Them tags are a month past due. Are you out of your fucking mind? This cunt won't let me pass.

I'm giving him a ticket. Didn't even give a ticket. Just ran their driver's licenses. So this fucking guy just just felt like fucking with people like they do up there and while he's doing that he waited all this fucking time to that is disgusting i'm so angry i'm that makes me really mad so when if carol's dead and somebody got away you son of a bitch tainter and they say oh well he's got a big area to cover especially when you're pulling people over for horse shit you have a big area to cut you make it bigger by doing that leave people

alone how about that but leave people alone up there christ almighty you get pulled over constantly up there so uh he pulled into the driveway deputy taint shit he gets in there and uh the night sky is it's fucking dark out they described in the book as so dark he couldn't see anything that wasn't illuminated by the beam of his flashlight. There's nothing out there. It's pitch black. So unless it's a full moon. You can see every star. It's so awesome.

It's pretty. Yeah. The house is dark. No lights on in the house except for a tiny faint blue flashing light, which he figured was some sort of electronic DVD player computer router something flashing so exactly microwave just beep beep beep

and he goes up to the front door knocks knocks knocks no response dogs are barking there and there shines his flashlight through the front windows just dark can't really see shit so he goes around to the rear of the house looks into the dining room window he can see the dogs now they're looking back at him barking like

crazy obviously as they should he sees a detached building in the back which he thought was a garage and he checked the door and it was unlocked to the garage he drew his gun announces his presence and did a walkthrough once he realized it was a guest house and not a garage.

So goes through that. No one's home in there either. Goes back to the main house. He checks the double French patio glass doors that lead to the dining room there and found them unlocked. So he didn't want to search the big house on his own, he said, though. He didn't want to. He's scared. He said he didn't feel, this is what he wrote on his thing, he didn't feel safe going in alone with just a gun and his flashlight to protect him.

Didn't feel safe with just my gun. What do you want, a flamethrower? Just my badge, gun, and flashlight so I could see everything. That felt unsafe. I'd like a bazooka to go in there next time. Do you have... Tainter, not only are you late, you're a pussy. I'd like to take a priest in there just in case there's evil spirits as well.

Why are you a cop, sir? To pull people over and run their fucking licenses. That's why apparently sorry i get that this guy is not you know i get we're talking about a regular guy doing his job but jesus bro this is fucking you're not it's not this job isn't for you this you're not doing a bang-up job i'm gonna be honest with you you're bad at this if this was my relative i'd be mad pissed at this guy so far for everything he's done. So he didn't want to do that, didn't want to go in the house.

So instead, he continued to walk around the perimeter, peering through the windows. He didn't see anything suspicious until he got to the last set of windows on the east side of the house. There he sees a woman inside, he says about 5'8", 120 pounds pounds lying with her feet toward him he says given the amount of blood pooled around her head she appears to be dead so that's when he said he didn't feel safe going in with alone with just his gun and flashlight so he went back to the patrol car what there's a fucking woman bleeding you don't know if she's dead oh there looks like a lot of blood she must be dead never mind i don't need to go in there and help her she must be dead do you do you enforce law are you a doctor bro what are you doing this is a situation where if someone else found this, who would they call? The cops. Who would then call and go, oh, no, it's too dangerous in there.

People are dying in there. I can't go in there. Can I ask you something, deputy? Who do you call now? Is there like the brave cop force? We're the brave cops. We'll go in there. There's a fucking woman bleeding out.

Taxpayer. To pay your county cop salary bleeding the fuck out go save her so she can continue to give to the coffers what the fuck are you doing i thought he was a pussy a minute ago now he verified it wow i'm so angry at this fucking guy why is he why'd he do this i have a lot of questions for this guy maybe one day you might be called to a scene where there's a murder or at least a very serious assault right something you don't know he's like well the killer could have been in there waiting to jump jump me he said well guess what she just slipped on a banana peel and whacked her fucking head sir get in there

we don't know or if there's a murderer in there waiting to jump him, that's why you get the gun in the fucking vest. That's why you walk around in a goddamn tactical vest all the time. For what other fucking reason? What reason is it? Just to look cool on the side of the road? Get the fuck inside. Sometimes it looks pretty badass when you run a license in that gear.

He's pretty. Oh, my God. My heart's going to work. I'm going to have a stroke. This is going to give me a stroke. I'm going to lose my mind. I'm just picturing. What a worthless guy.

Oh, God. I'm picturing somebody I love in there. And I'm going, well, it's too dangerous in there to go in. Jesus Christ. I got to get a cop with me. You are a cop with me you are a cop so he goes back to the patrol car calls the dispatcher um he hears the dispatcher checking on him over the radio and um uh it's he also heard a sergeant sergeant candace acton requesting his

location and saying she was on the way also so So he radioed in a code four. That means he's doing fine. I'm good. I'm okay. I'm permanent code four, babe. I don't get in my dangerous situation. Come save me, Candy. Yeah.

Candy, it's dangerous in there. Officer Candy, I need your help. Sergeant Candy, to you. Sergeant Candy, help me. Fuck me. Well, Sergeant Candy will probably go in there, for Christ's sake. That's how she made Sergeant. Right. That's why she's the boss.

Fuck, man. So then he called the sergeant on her cell phone to report what looks like there's a dead person in there, it looks like. I don't know. And this is unusual in this area. They don't get a lot of looks like someone might have had their skull cracked in in the middle of nowhere here. So they start to arrive. The first Sergeant Acton gets there at 910. That's Sergeant Candy there.

She and Tainter then stood at the top of the driveway waiting for their colleagues to pull up as well. Candy, you're the hero. He called you. Well, here we are. So. Now it's me and you. Probably a dead lady inside, huh? Yep, that's right.

Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see. We'll find out. Take a real, let's get seven, eight more guys in here before we go in there. You have two people with training and guns now and vests on. Get the fuck in the goddamn house. This lady might be alive. Holy shit. He showed up at 8.58. She showed up at 9.10.

It took her 12 minutes to get there fast. That's what I mean. She's already better than him, and now she's ruining it. Maybe she didn't make a traffic stop along the way either. So they stood at the top of their driveway as they do a white ford ranger truck pulls in pulls up to the house with a license plate that was s-t-o-k-a-g-e now i am terrible at these i remember frico fark is mine so i don't know what what does that say to you stock ag st oakage i don't know why he's a stock guy right isn't he like a broker no no yeah well no no that's not no this is jim knapp that pulls up this isn't steve what does jim do stockage

stockage i don't know uh maybe he stocked shelves i have no idea he's he's in his early 50s he introduces himself as jim knapp he says he lives in the guest house so they asked if carol had been home when he left earlier in the day he said no um she'd have she already left for work she should be home right now i could call her and have her come out is what they said i can call her she'll come outside and the sergeant said no that's okay you know knowing what's going on doesn't tell him about it, but they go to what kind of, what is your relationship with Carol Kennedy? Jim says, best friends. Yeah.

Best friends. He said they've been commiserating about their recently gone through divorces and all this type of shit. They asked Jim for his driver's license. Very good at running licenses up there that they have down. They have that down. That's what they, by the way, no one's gone in the house yet not not a soul nope still standing out in the driveway um we're already id'ing people and we don't even know if she's okay they're running him to see if he has

any outstanding warrants because that's the main concern right now that's the concern right now feels like that's what the training is up there right just check if they got warrants yeah check because yeah i'm sure they're they're from Phoenix and driving through and sure they got warrants about something. Probably just up here for the weekend. Yeah, you know how they are. Gross. So they told him or the sergeant tells Jim Knapp that they didn't know what was going on yet and that he needed to stay in his truck and out of the way. So other deputies begin

to arrive as they arrive now there's a shitload of people there they quote came up with a plan to determine if the killer was still on the property here's a plan go the fuck in there and sweep the house and find out i see cops do this shit all the time two of them you go i see i watch fucking uh uh on patrol yeah there's a they think there's people in a house they'll go in two fucking people flashlight gun they go in clear clear this under the bed they have two fucking people they do it there's like fucking six of them standing out there now like let's all make a plan it's not a game of mousetrap you're gonna set up a thing in a ball and what's happening they don't know if there's a killer at all.

They don't know if she slipped. They don't know anything. Yeah. There could be six people afraid of a stepstool. That's what they could be afraid of. And a counter. This is infuriating. Liquid Dawn spilled on the floor.

You don't know. Get your ass inside and find out. I feel like they're doing everything to prolong this. Yeah. You know what I mean? Ask the buck and not have to investigate it. Finally, a deputy is assigned to stay with Jim in his truck. You stand next to Jim Knapp, okay?

So Jim says, what's going on? And the guy says, we're investigating a suspicious incident. Yeah. We'd know more, but none of us have the balls to go inside. We don't know, to be inside so we don't know to be honest we don't know a guy looked in the window got scared got all scared up and called us so here we are you wouldn't happen to have a size uh 34 32 pants would you his pants are just shitty as the day is long so we got anything so jim is impatient yeah and ignores the instructions and calls carol's cell phone he's like if no one else will try to figure this out i will i'm

fuck it i don't care left her a message at 9 37 p.m 9 37 they still have not gone inside almost an hour still okay so if she was okay she sure shit isn't now probably there's someone bleeding now figure she's probably dead let's just hang out out here it's a blood let's wait an hour oh my god um and he said like are you all right the sheriff's office is here what's going on what the fuck basically so they said the tone of the voicemail said that he was concerned that she wasn't at home and um you know basically he, like the sheriff's office here, he was saying the message like as if she wasn't home and didn't want her to freak out when she came home and saw a shitload of cop cars outside. Like, hey, the cops are here. What's going on?

Did someone someone wants to broke in while you were out or something? So finally, other deputies go inside and the one cop who's assigned to stand next to Jim's truck here, he's got the dangerous job, he's talking to Jim through the driver's window asking him about his whereabouts that day.

Jim said he'd been at the bridal path house, this house, until about 1 or 2 p.m. when he went into town to meet with his sons who were 13 and 11 at his ex-wife's house.

So while his ex took their one son to hockey practice, Jim stayed with the other son and watched Harold and Kumar go to White Castle. Yikes. Because it's 2008, so that's what you do in 2008. You watch Harold and Kumar. So they had rented it. So again, very 2008. Jim says that he headed home once his ex-wife

got home and about 8 38 45 on his way he stopped off at safeway for some cherries and wine he's gonna have some kind of night he is gonna be shit and red let me tell you something the next day he's gonna be like did i did my insides explode oh, I ate all those cherries and wine. Never mind. Black shit. Because he's going to have dense black shit is what he's going to have. Falling out of that thing. Oh, yeah. It's not even a log.

Jesus. Oh, that's what I did. That's right. You got to have like a loaf of bread with that or something just to firm it up, right? Throw some protein down your throat. Jesus. So Jim said he'd last seen Carol the night before when she'd come to the guest house to say goodnight around 9 o'clock. That morning, she left a note on his truck window, which he showed the investigators.

Note said, thinking of you all day. Who writes that to their friends, though? Note said, thinking of you all day. Who writes that to their friends, though? Have you ever had a friend of the opposite sex who you left a note on their car that said thinking about you all day when you didn't want to? Yeah, but I had been inside her. That's what I mean. That was not platonic. No, that's not a platonic.

I would never say that platonically. But I'm also not like she's a touchy feely yeah a counseling therapist art type you know what i mean type of person so she might say shit like that that's the only thing welcome to the small town of chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper in this new thriller available exclusively on wondery plus religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced.

She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot,

and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. He said Carol often left notes like that for him since he'd moved in a few months ago. And he said the idea is that we provide each other with moral support and to keep an eye out. And he tries to keep an eye out for her because she's living alone in the house and all that kind of shit.

She said, Carol has wanted a man on the property for years ever since Steve, her husband, moved out. Then they said, well, what's Steve like? And he said, a very sneaky, manipulative man. Quote, if anything happened to her, you should be looking at him. I don't like that. We're going to investigate you further, sir. I don't like looking at him. I don't like that. We're going to investigate you further, sir. I don't like that at all. I don't like that at all.

To say, very sneaky, manipulative man, that ex. If anything happened to her, you should be looking at him. Now, that's also, if it's true, that's what you'd say. But also, that's what a murderer would say, too. So it goes both ways. So they cleared the guest house again, the deputies, just to make sure that, Jesus, let's clear the place without the icky stuff first again. Just go in there. I'm sure you did it sloppily because you were scared to death.

So we'll do it real this time. Exactly. Yeah. That was when you had your poop pants? Okay. Well, we'll go. Yeah, he had a taint around his poop pants at that point. So we're going to go in now.

I see the trail. No, I see it. It was a wet one. You cherries and wine? You eating cherries and wine? So you got to add some protein or bread or something into that. You got to throw some cheese with the wine. Jesus Christ.

It'll firm it all up. That's why they do that. That's why they eat like that. So they proceed to the main house. They stand on the back patio. The dogs are barking, jumping up, pawing at the glass. The glass patio door is locked. The deputies enter the house, walking into the dining room and kitchen.

Dogs run outside. Thanks a lot for letting the dogs out. But I guess they got to piss. But those dogs also have health problems. Let's keep an eye on them. Yeah, urinary problems. Let's see what happens. They don't care.

They've been opened by a javelina. They're like, should we let the dogs out? There's a javelina back here oh fuck it who cares just get away from the javelina them are dangerous so they go from room to room and they approach carol's room in the carol in the back bedroom where she's they find her lying face down, her right arm under her body. Oh, boy. To enter the room, they had to duck under a wooden ladder that was leaning against the wall above the doorway. Okay. But it was like you had to duck under it.

It was tilted there. A shitload of blood is everywhere, spattered all over. There's blood spatter everywhere, primarily on and around the leg uh the desk leg and pulled around her head a bookcase is also toppled over right next to her body the side of the desk has blood on it as well and someone had left a bloody smudge like maybe a handprint on the beige carpet where a bottle of stain remover was sitting nearby. Okay. So they put on some gloves.

Okay. It's an hour and some change later. Sergeant Acton puts on some gloves and checks Carol for a pulse. A little late for that, sweetheart. Candy. An hour ago, you check for a fucking pulse. Tainter should have been checking for a pulse at 850 or whatever. This is crazy.

And her skin was cold to the cool to the touch, not cold. She appeared to have been dead for a while. And the deputies at this point call for paramedics. As soon as you saw the woman in the house with the fucking blood pool, that should have been called to the dispatch. By the way, I need backup and paramedics here immediately. They said, let's get someone in here. and paramedics here immediately they said let's get someone in here we'll talk about it hey let's talk to this guy for a while run his license you got any warrants buddy no all right well someone's coming soon uh check the guest house

again sure all right let's let the dogs out hmm wonder if she's still alive no uh let's let the dogs out. Hmm, wonder if she's still alive. No? Let's call the paramedics. That's what happened. Fascinating. Holy shit. Is that the chain of command? Officers don't call paramedics, only sergeants. Well, I got to wait on her. Wow.

They call in, I need backup in a fucking ambulance. I need this, that. They say what they need in a little thing there. Don't you go spending all that money. We'll make sure the sergeant knows how to spend this money. Yeah, we'll check on that need for, quote, paramedics. Let's not get crazy now. So the ambulance crew arrived at 940 and assessed her condition to confirm, yes, she has indeed passed away.

and assessed her condition to confirm, yes, she has indeed passed away. They left less than 10 minutes later, the paramedics, because they have nothing to do. They can't take her because it's a crime scene. So Jim, he's still sitting outside for an hour and a half now, Jim Knapp, and he said something's wrong. He says he sensed something's wrong. He asked the deputy who's guarding him quote is she dead again what very weird thing to ask this question but he said is she dead which the is she dead is a weird question because you'd start with is she home is this is you know she is

is she in there is she in there is she Is she okay? Because you'd want, you'd be whatever. Is she dead though? Usually when people murder people, when they talk about what happened to that person, they lighten it up a little bit. They usually don't use killed, dead, murdered, this and that. They'll say hurt. They'll say shit like that. Is she hurt? Yeah.

If they're even confessing to something, they'll say, I hurt her or I did this when I hurt her doing that. They won't say, then I killed her or, you know, that sort of shit they keep. Cause that sounds harsher. So they, but that question implies he knows a, that she's in there B that she's injured bad enough to be possibly dead and see the paramedics just left. So either she's up alive, alert and breathing or she's dead.

Yeah, that's what I mean. I could see maybe there's a, I could see maybe asking it just because there's so many people and even sitting there so long, but the deputy just says yes, because they had just told him that, or he just heard it.

So he's sitting in his truck, Jim Knapp, he breaks down crying and they said he remained visibly upset for quite some time. I would be too, yeah. Okay. So at that moment, the superiors here at the scene tell the deputy to record his conversation with Jim Knapp

going back over the same questions that he asked earlier and get his answers on tape. Which, if you're doing that, you need to Mirandize him now as well, by the the way but they don't of course they put a small micro cassette recorder this deputy puts a small cassette recorder into his shirt pocket and you can hear none of it because the rustling against the cloth of his shirt pocket ruins it all wow keystone assholes so that tanker no this is a different

guy this i mean it's only quality with the Avapai County Sheriff's Department. Holy shit. So, wow. He recovered. Jim recovered and gets out of his truck. The deputy tries to casually look him over with a flashlight, looking for blood or scratches on him or something like that. He peeks inside Jim's truck and sees nothing suspicious. He said that Jim's

speech didn't seem slurred. Say that a lot. Speech didn't seem slurred. That's a tongue twister. Yeah, if you can say that, you're not drunk. That's the test. His eyes didn't look bloodshot or watery, and his pupils weren't

dilated or constricted, so he's not on drugs and he's not drunk. They said other than being very upset he didn't seem impaired so um they said that uh they later on they say how could jim have known all of about all the blood at the crime scene and uh because later on the next day he describes to a woman at Safeway that it's very bloody in there and all this type of shit. And so they asked that deputy, did you tell him anything about the inside? And he said, I just said she was dead. I didn't say shit. So they said, oh, we don't know how he found out about it or knew enough about it to talk about it to other people.

He said this deputy said he didn't talk to Jim about blood, nor did he recall Jim mentor mentioning blood at the crime scene at the time to him. Uh, they both been standing outside the entire time. So inside the house here now, um, the sheriff detective Brown is the first detective to arrive at the crime scene at 10 35. So, uh, yeah, that's almost two hours later, but by then they know it's, they know she's dead. They've, they've taped it off and it's, it's not going anywhere. So he walks through the house with, uh, another Sergeant and examines the position of the body, the ladder and the overturn

briefcase and the pattern of blood splattered around them. So bookcase, I'm sorry. Did I say briefcase? Yeah. I'm sorry. Bookcase. Yeah. It's bookcase. Very different size things. Thank you. One can fall on you and hurt you. And the other one would just be laying on the floor. Yeah.

Like dog water. So at first, this is Brown, uh, haunt the other Sergeant and Lieutenant Dave Rhodes all thought Carol, they looked like she fell off the ladder and hit her head on the bookcase, knocking it over. That's what they all said. It looks holy shit. The cordless phone on which she'd been speaking to her mother was on the carpet between the swivel desk and the north wall. So it was all in the thing. If she was losing her footing, oh, no. And then she fell and cracked her head open.

So they're like, oh, shit. So but then they look at the blood spatter pattern is the detectives. Now they realize that it's not how it is because they said it didn't have to be a fountain out of her fucking head for that. Well, whoever once you get to the autopsy, you know, it wasn't that. But even here, they said that the the killer must have moved the bookshelf and ladder after the assault, staging the scene to look like an accident because of the way the blood spatter was. It wasn't it was under the bookshelf and stuff like that. So it was where places it couldn't have been there. The degree of trauma to the head, not to mention the dense collection of blood on the desk corner, was too severe to have come from a simple fall as well.

She'd have to fall off the roof onto a fucking desk like it's not it's not a four foot fall the ladder was positioned with the rungs going the wrong way for her to have been climbing it also which is that's just pay attention the ladder's upside down upside down oh also the ladder has no fingerprints or blood on it even though blood was spattered on the wall behind it so it obviously was put in after the fact, and then the person wiped their fingerprints down off of it. So that's not great. Blood also dried on the bookshelf unit

in a way that wouldn't have been able to happen if it was like that angle when this went on. So then they moved Carol into the body bag, and they were able to see that the trauma, because at first it looked like just trauma to the left side of her head. Then you see the right side of her head is all bashed in as well. Yeah, you rarely go down and hit two things on both sides. Pow, pow.

Yeah, that's not normal. So they said it was obvious that things didn't make sense at that point. This is Lieutenant Brown. So you've got the damage to her skull and then the blood on the desk. I thought that, you know, she was slammed against the desk. Maybe that was part of it. So they check the track lighting in the laundry room, by the way, and they discover that one of the bulbs is missing from there, which is a lot of times if you have one that blows out, it'll be gone. But the other three had all been partially unscrewed so they wouldn't come on.

Oh, like in Godfather 2 when he's waiting for fucking don fanucci there and he undoes the thing so he can shoot him that's that's that's what you do like you know if you're gonna rob somebody in a fucking stairwell in a building you do that kind of shit yeah so um they said that that was interesting uh so it looked like whoever killed her wanted to obviously hide in the dark probably and um they said uh one of the guys said here it was clearly a violent crime scene just the blood spatter on the wall on the desk it was all over i mean it was it was all the way over to the other wall wow so personal yeah that's the thing and they also said how do you have this much blood and there's no bloody footprints no bloody fingerprints or handprints anywhere

they said i mean it's like a ghost came in wow it is just a perfectly like like literally a ghost came in bashed her up and took off there's no any there's no footprints in the blood how the fuck do you do that was she asleep was it freddy krueger it's yeah was that it did she fall asleep and who knows so they are they they want to know what j was up to. He's got an alibi over it with the kids watching Harold and Kumar. So now they want to talk to Steve because that's the ex-husband. That's the first place you go. They also want to talk to everybody else for that matter. So they talked to the kids as well, Charlotte and Jake, her boyfriend, who have been there. Obviously they have to talk to them. Apparently they had to go over their day. Jake and Charlotte had lunch together, stopped at Safeway to get some cookies

to bring to Steve at his office because he asked them to bring him something sweet. Steve had finished the day at work at UBS. It was his job, financial services in Prescott, and Steve logged off his computer at 4.38 p.m. So they said that UBS was fanatical about having its employees log off but not necessarily turn off their computers before they leave the office because they feared that someone could break into the office. And hack into their system. If someone didn't log out. So Steve. He drove from the office here. He was about a half mile away.

Used to his house. Used his remote control at 4.52 p.m. To open the gate to his condo complex. There we go. He's in a suit. He changes into his workout clothes, tells the teenagers, take it easy going for a long bike ride. Jake later said that he thought that Steve went on the loop trail

around the nearby fitness center where he often went running, and then he would do an upper body workout with weights. So they expected he'd be gone for a couple hours, whatever. He left the apartment just after 5, and he turns off his phone at 5.36 p.m. 5.36 p.m., it's gone. So the kids continue to play video games. Then they went for a swim at the pool in the fitness center.

They didn't see Steve's car there, and the sun is setting. So they came back to the condo, played some more video games and waited for Steve to come back so they could start dinner. So after dark, they start wondering where he is because he doesn't normally ride his bike in the dark. Right. It's hard to do. So, um, Charlotte tried texting and calling him, got no answer.

She tried calling his girlfriend Renee as well to find out where he'd gone riding. But Renee was, didn't know. She said, I have no idea. There was some confusion about who said what, I guess. But Jake would later tell investigators that Renee said she didn't know whether Steve had gone to the Granite Basin Trail, the Granite Mountain Trail or the trail by the fitness center, which was about six to eight miles long. So the teenagers now, after a long day of swimming and video games, fell asleep for a little while, then woke up at 9.40. Wow.

I'm sure they did. This kid has a, yeah, that's what I mean. We fell, took a, that's easy. You turn the video games off to take a nap for a little while. That's not normally how that works. So at 9.40, Jake said, wow, your dad's really been gone a long time. So Charlotte tried twice more to call his cell at 940 and 952, leaving him a voicemail. So they were waiting for him for dinner.

By 10 o'clock, they said, fuck it, we're making food. They drove to Safeway to buy ingredients to make some stir fry shit. So Jake, at one point on the way over to Safeway, thought he saw Steve's car, which is a four-door silver BMW, stopped at an intersection. At 10.08 p.m., Steve turned his phone back on. So he's been headed off for four and a half hours. He missed 11 calls and three text messages, but he never listened to the voice. That's a long one. He never listened to the voicemails or responded to the text messages that he got at that point.

So, yeah. Steve's first call was to Charlotte, who was at the Safeway there. By the way, that's where Jim Knapp had gotten cherries and wine and where Carol had gotten salad fixings earlier in the night. Yeah. Charlotte was on, even they saw her on the store surveillance video talking on her cell phone and all that kind of shit so um uh he told her steve tells his daughter charlotte he'd been on a bike ride got a flat tire and his phone died okay so just a disaster he was thinking terrible day was thinking of working out at the fitness center but once he found out that they

hadn't even eaten anyway he said well fuck it i'll come home and join you too so they said within 60 seconds of his call to charlotte his he used his remote control to enter the condo security gate at 1009 um a minute later he called renee his girlfriend and told and listed off all the reasons that he couldn't come over to the house it's been a bad day i'm tired i'm dehydrated i need a shower i just want to go home tires yeah get some food go to bed and renee said okay fine go and she thought that he was cheating on her so that a girl yeah so um then he said on the phone i'm bleeding and she said what and he said i scraped my leg on a branch and got a deep gash. I've got to get home.

She's like, you want a deep gash, you come over here. That's why she thought he was cheating. You just got some deep gash? What are you talking about, deep gash? He said he'd run his bike into a bush, and he snagged his leg on a twig that was sticking out onto the trail. So about a week later, he'll take her on the trail to show her the twig.

He said he also got scratches on his arm when he got off his bike, hiked down into a gully and up a hill to look down on the lot that he and Carol used to own. He's about a mile and a half from Carol's house in these trails back there. so he can see

from this mountain he like went around the backside so um renee said that steve always seemed like a sentimental guy so he didn't think that was weird but he would look over the whole thing 10 16 p.m seven minutes after steve got home charlotte uses her code to enter the security gate and pulls her white bm BMW into the condo garage. Everybody's got a Beamer. Wow. Holy shit. Steve's.

The interior lights are still on in his car. The ones that stay on after you close the door. Yeah. So she and Jake walked upstairs into the condo. They heard the shower running there. Carol's brother at this point. So dead Carol here. Her brother, John Kennedy, is his name.

Yeah. He finally reaches Steve on a cell phone at 1030 to relay his and Ruth's concerns about Carol in a three minute call because the police still haven't notified them yet. Which I guess that's routine, though. But I guess John was trying to get it out. And Steve interrupted and said, quote, Hey, look, I'm standing here dripping wet. Just stepped out of the shower. I've been out mountain biking, blah, blah, blah. John tried to explain what happened during Ruth's call with Carol and asked if Steve would please go to the house and check on Carol.

And Steve said, No, I will not. No. John said, Well, we think something's wrong so why can you just drive by and see if everything looks okay and steve said no absolutely not because she might have a date over or something and i don't feel comfortable stopping by at this late hour and infringing on her privacy oh now he's a sweetheart now he's a sweet guy as soon as they hung up the phone steve sent carol a text 1035, then called her phone three minutes later and left a voicemail with the same message. Carol, I just left a message on your out at Bridal Path.

Will you give us a call? Your brother called me and is worried because your mom was talking to you and all of a sudden you guys got disconnected. She said you exclaimed something and hung up and they haven't been able to get a hold of you. So people are a little worried and they haven't been able to get a hold of you. So people are a little worried and they just want to know you're okay. Would you call us or call your mom? Bye. That's what it is.

So he just explained that didn't need to be explained. You know what I mean? That's very like alibi type of shit. So Steve asked the kids, you got anything to put in the laundry? And then he started washing some clothes of his, which, yeah, they said he did that a lot, though. He would do small loads of laundry. So Jake notices scratches on Steve's left arm and leg, which were currently bleeding. And Jake said, those look pretty bad. Are you okay?

And Steve said, I'm fine. Just really tired. It was a really long ride. And he said he had a flat tire. bleeding yeah and jake said those look pretty bad are you okay and steve said i'm fine just really tired it was a really long ride and he said he had a flat tire he had to walk four miles back to the car and got scratched by some bushes so uh steve comes out of the bedroom wearing shorts and a t-shirt eats some dinner and uh just talks about the stock market in general general chit chat not shaky or anything no he said when was the last time you heard from your mother and charlotte said they were texting earlier in the evening and uh steve said he'd gotten a call from carol's brother about the line suddenly going dead

while she was on the phone with ruth and that ruth was worried about her so charlotte then texted her mother saying i'm worried about you she tried calling her cell phone house phone left a message if you want to text me back or something just let me know you're okay and everything's okay. Otherwise, I might drive out to your house and see if you're all right. That's what Charlotte says. No response, though. So Charlotte thinks maybe mom fell asleep and just wasn't answering her cell. Maybe that's it.

But she knew the ringer on the landline was loud, so Carol would hear it. But Steve said that he'd gotten a call from a co-worker at that point. He tells the kids, oh, I got to go, and says he'd left his computer logged on at the office, which he didn't. We know his logout time. And he needed to go back to log off. He said he also realized he'd left something he needed. So he runs out the door and he was gone for less than five minutes.

Five minutes? Five minutes. He used a security code to come back through the gate, a condo gate, three times between 11 p.m. and midnight. 11.04,

11.21, and 11.51. That's wild. So after dinner, Jake and Charlotte start playing video games again while Steve makes some calls pacing back and forth doing all his normal shit.

So Charlotte's worried about her mom. She and Jake start calling emergency rooms in Prescott and Prescott Valley to see if any patients had come in under her name. Maybe something happened. Who knows? So Charlotte and Jake thought someone should go to the house and check on her. But Steve said that he felt uncomfortable going over there. So Charlotte said, we'll fucking drive over there. So Steve came up with a plan for Charlotte to go.

But basically a half mile before they get there, she had to call Steve and stay on the phone with him as she was pulling up. Because if the house was dark, he wanted to tell her not to go in there. So he said, any unfamiliar cars in the driveway, anything like that, get the hell out of there. Who knows what happened? So Jake is worried that this, that Charlotte's going to try to bust into the house anyway.

So then as they're leaving Jake over here, Steve leaving Carol, another message, people are really worried. If you wouldn't mind calling. I mean, if you're on a date or whatever, it's totally okay. I just, we don't want to intrude, but you're not answering anybody's calls. I'm sure everything is fine, but if you could just even text us and let us know that you're okay, that would be great. I think your mom and John are up back east, worried and waiting to hear. So please call somebody by.

okay carol's brother john hears back from steve around 11 30 p.m um that's right after that jake and charlotte left to go check everything steve said have you heard anything john said no um he and ruth had called the sheriff's office but we're told we're kind of busy now midnight almost midnight let's go ahead and next to kin this shit if you know she's dead and you know who she is let's go ahead and next to kin it up what do you say you're very aware what's that you've known for almost three hours oh my this is fucking wild so um as charlotte's pulling up she's on the phone with steve she said i see flashing lights steve said oh no so they see a number of sheriff's cruisers and yellow crime scene tape and everything like that several detectives are standing in the road um you know

doing all this type of shit charlotte charlotte pulls up and talks to the lieutenant and says this is my mom's house what's going on yeah obviously so and uh they say well there's been some issues here and that's kind of how notification occurs. So, they find some tire impressions, okay? They take impressions of footprints near the house that lead to bicycle tracks that stop about 100 yards away from the house in the back. A neighbor of theirs also, oh, this is the neighbor's reaction. The neighbor of theirs, Jan Wheeler, said, I think it was really extremely shocking. You don't expect something like that to happen here.

Said, I didn't know anything about it. That was supporting her. That was the Jan that was her friend. That Jan, yeah. I didn't know anything about it until the next morning. And there was this yellow tape across. I stopped and said, hey, my good friend lives there. Is everything okay?

And they said, no, it's not. She's dead, which is not okay. They are some callous motherfuckers up there. Nah, it's all over the place. Croaked. Brain everywhere. Somebody brained her. I don't know.

What a... Jesus. The autopsy concluded that she suffered, Carol suffered, seven major skull fractures from blunt force object. Possibly, most likely a golf club oh my the autopsy found that her skull was fractured in 50 or more places by at least seven blows consistent with the strike of a golf club they uh the they say the severity of the injuries suggests her attacker was in a rage. Rage often suggests a relationship between the attacker and the victim.

That's what the cops wrote in a search warrant to search Steve's shit. So, yeah, a cop says to Steve, someone did it because they talked to Steve several times. Someone did it and I don't know who it was if it wasn't you right now. So you're my guy right now so they search his home they find they find a bag of golf clubs with one missing oh a big bertha callaway number seven big bertha three golf club a three wood so one of them big fucking fat bastards may as well be the it be the one just below the driver. That's a big fat golf club.

Yup. It's a seven wood. It's a bertha three. It's like the third one of those. Oh, got it. It's a seven wood. It's still a big one. Those berthas are big.

It's the hybrid wood, right? I think so. I don't know that specifically. Maybe. Jimmy's doing his golf course. Golf course talk with Jamesames and jimmy club talk with james and sevens generally a dry uh an iron slash wood what do you like to hit out of the sand trap jimmy i've never golfed in my life by the way driving range would never go

so um now they can't find it they'll they'll they will never find this missing club, by the way. They never find the big burger. Never find it. So while he's being questioned, investigators are at his house. They take pictures in his garage. The pictures, they went one time, took pictures around, then they go back and talk to him, and they go back to his house again. During the first visit hours earlier,

photos showed a golf club cover on a shelf in the garage. So all the clubs are in the bag with their covers on it. One club missing and there's a cover on the shelf in the garage. Just the cover. When they returned, the cover was gone. Oh, weird. A few hours later. But it's in photographs before that. So they ask him about, you know, what's up with you and your ex-wife.

He said that they had chatted amicably over coffee a few days earlier. He said we were talking about starting to date again. I loved Carol, which we know isn't true. He talked about it. She said no. They said, where were you? He said flat tire, mountain biking. I was biking on dirt trails starting a mile and a half from carol's house

at about 6 30 and ending 10 miles away about three hours earlier from her house i started a mile and a half away and then rode away rode away yeah um so he said during the interview he said so i'm a suspect that's what they said so which is interesting uh There's a few problems with the story. Number one is his phone being off for five hours during the murder. These these murders that happen now, it's almost like it's it's so easy for the cops to know where you were by towers and pings and all that shit. Now it's also more accurate now and shit. So a lot of people now will turn their phones off when they go commit murders, which just means who is the only person they knew with their phone off in the three hour time period? Oh, you? Guess what?

You're the murderer. And it's only shut off in the time that the murder happens. People used to shut phones off back in the day. You don't even if you go to the movies or something now, you put it on silent. No one shuts their phone off completely very often. Shut them off in the middle of the night and get in charge. Maybe then. Not during the evening.

Nobody shuts it off now. No, especially when they're on a biking trail where they might fall, get hurt, and need to call for help. Right. You'd keep it on. Now they just shut it off just for the murder, then they're back to Instagram. That's right there. Right back to texting and Instagram. His girlfriend, Renee, said he always had a phone on in charge so that his daughters could reach him any time, day or night, except that night, obviously.

And that became a big deal. That put a lot of suspicion on him and, you know, all that kind of thing. on him and, you know, all that kind of thing. So he said he went for a bike ride near the home and they said now this is one of the cops or one of the investigators said now the situation is he lives eight miles away from here. So why on that particular day he decides he's going to drive eight miles to go bike riding. Right.

Why do that? So this is from his Steve's interview with the cops. Why do that? So this is from Steve's interview with the cops. Cops said, like I said, the proximity of where the trail is and the, and Steve says, I know. And the cop says, and where you were riding. And Steve says, I wish I had chosen a different trail. The cop said, I wish you had chosen a different trail also. Like not being a scumbag.

I mean, life trail, you son of a bitch. Yeah. So the cop looks at his leg and he sees the scratches and says, from the thorn bushes, is that where you got that? And Steve says, yeah. And he's obviously supposed to be riding his bicycle with a flat tire and all that kind of shit. Investigators find shoe prints and bike tracks, like we said leading up. Multiple footprints in that area, though, and bike print things and shit like that. They said it was a very leafy and sticks that were there and you could tell someone had been there.

An FBI expert determined that the impressions came from a specific kind of shoe. It's a brand La Sportiva is the brand. Okay. Brand La Sportiva is the brand. Okay. So they asked, they said they found that was the only pair of shoes that could make that impression. A receipt shows that Steve purchased a pair of shoes of La Sportiva's in 2006, but the investigators could not find them when they searched his home. Oh. his home. So, yeah, Steve's sister at this point says basically all they really have is they have

a footprint that may or may not look similar to some shoes that he may or may not have owned. That's what you got right now. That's that Steve's sister. So, but they say that the tires that they found have tread the same as Steve's bike tread tires, tire tread. So they said there's no dissimilar characteristics at all.

Their problem is they also, it's a common tire. 90% of the mountain bikes in this area have the same tire on it. Right. They found out it's just the standard tire that comes on it. So they said, but do 90% of the people wear the same type of shoe that left a partial print that we don't know that he has? Right.

Huh? That we don't know that he doesn't have? We know nothing about. But after they look into some of his stuff and get warrants, they find some interesting internet searches on his computer. Why did he do this? Quote, how to kill someone and make it look like a suicide which is not great let's just say evidently that wasn't the the shit that came up because what he did was not make it look like a suicide like no no it doesn't look good his position though was

i'm doing research on writing a novel okay which we that's man that's yeah i just saw an interrogation of a lady who said that same thing um and his sister sharon says it's true she says steve's been interested in writing for a long time he's actually a really good writer and he's been working on a manuscript for a long time long before the. I've been doing a lot of the editing for him. He's talked with a number of us about it. Big true crime fan. That's big true crime fan. Huge. So on October

23rd, 2008, you know, three months later almost, they finally arrest Steve. Really? Arrest him at his office, by the way, just to make sure to put the extra stank on just to ruin his career, even if this doesn't stick. But it's a place where he'll probably go quietly, though, just to go.

This is ridiculous. I don't know what you mean. This is crazy. And he can act all high and mighty. They probably sent Tainter to arrest him. And Tainter was nervous. So he was like, I'll do it during business hours. So, yeah, I'll just I'll just do it.

He went up to his boss first and was like, can you like call him over here but like i'll be hiding behind the door but don't let him know i'm here right and i'll just jump out and cuff him maybe we'll do that i'm a giant pussy can we ambush him together shit how about i deputize you you hold these cups and you you slap him on. He won't even suspect it. When he walks through the door, hit him over the head with your stapler and then I'll cuff him. How's that? You can help me. So they also say Stephen had no history of violence.

And basically his team is asking how the deputies could believe that he just suddenly erupted in a blind, violent rage after five and a half years of amicable separation. And the divorce was even final months before that, too. So they're like, what, he just built up and then he went into a rage? This is ridiculous. Nothing. There was no impetus for this. So they asked about the missing golf club cover. He said he didn't remove the item from his garage.

He said he found it a day later in a friend's car and gave it to his attorney i don't know what that means i guess the cover during uh the arrest they told him that they knew he applied for a replacement passport by claiming the original was lost when in fact he had surrendered it to the authorities he had to turn in his passport they asked him to explain his purchase of books with titles such as quote how to disappear until you want to be found i mean come on bro even if you're if you're gonna get that book find one with a less incriminating title this is like the handbook to the recently deceased or something it's very on the nose they also wondered why why his motorcycle

was packed for travel complete with a map of mexico in it wonder why that happened and oj's book if i did it here's how here's how he said it was he has no alibi and feared arrest so in a time of panic he made plans to get out of there. He goes, I didn't have an alibi. I thought they were going to arrest me, which he was right. And he said it was just stupid, fear-based stuff of why he did that. And the defense lawyers accused the police of blindly focusing on Steve and not even looking at Jim Knapp, who they accuse of drug trafficking, of being involved in drug trafficking as well as prescription pill ring, to be exact. So was it about money?

Prosecution says that the motive is money. They said that it was 2008. The economy was in the shitter at that point. Investment banking wasn't doing that or investing wasn't doing that well. And his girlfriend said Steve liked to spend money. He liked his things. He liked nice hotels. He liked first class first class everything well who the fuck doesn't um that's amazing yeah everybody in my family have a bmw sounds great he said but she said but it did become clear that

he was in a significant amount of debt what to most of us would seem insurmountable and his family admits that he borrowed money from them to make ends meet in the last few couple of years here. But they said that's not a motive for murder. His sister said he took hits, but his career was solid. He had great earning capacity and he would have rebounded like everybody else did. And they said at that point, though, they bring up the life insurance policy and um the sister says that he has no interest in that life insurance policy but in fact there was two policies totaling 750 000

both payable to him now he's not eligible to receive that because he got arrested for it but you know who is eligible to receive that his daughters you bet his daughters and you know who is eligible to receive that? His daughters. You bet. His daughters. And you know what his daughters do? They pay his lawyer with it. Really? Yes. You've got pre-med Charlotte. They pay his lawyers. He tells them to.

I don't think it was their idea. The family thinks Jim Knapp did it. Steve's family, anyway. They said he's quick to arrive at the crime scene. Investigators recorded their conversation with him where he pointed a finger immediately at Steve. Knapp told police, quote, it was an ugly divorce. My intuitive take on it is the guy comes off to me as very sneaky and manipulative. The first thing he said is, you know, she's got a crazy ex-husband and I have a feeling it was probably him.

They said Jim Knapp might have a reason to disparage steve shannon says uh this is steve's sister there's a rumor around town that rumor around town that jim nap wanted to be more than just friends with carol yeah and uh she said what concerned us was that he was very enamored with carol and um they said um um you, all that sort of shit. They said he wasn't looked at all night that first night. They never really inspected his truck. They just did a once over with a flashlight on his clothing. You know, he has a lot of they have a lot of reasons to suspect him. But Knapp has an alibi. That's the problem. He's babysitting. So that's the issue. And they said, well, OK, they don't do have some points so we should

look deeper into jim knapp but then a few months after this couple months after steve is arrested jim knapp kills himself what dies by suicide gunshot wound yeah um that's a lot um wow so now the guest house where at oh they don't say probably not in the guest house i wouldn't assume but the daughters at the time think he's innocent by the way um charlotte said my father my dad is the most compassionate supportive brilliant man I know. If there's one thing I know, it's that my father is not capable of what he's accused of. Now, under the Victim's Bill of Rights, a constitutional amendment adopted by the state of Arizona in 1990 by a voter decree here, the young women here, the daughters, are entitled to confer with prosecutors about decisions in the case.

But the sisters are are are aligned with the defense. Yeah. So the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office or attorney's office, county attorney's office, press them to renounce their rights, then decline communications with them so they the prosecutor's office wouldn't give the daughter's information because they said you're on the you're on the other side even though that's their mother which is fucked up can they do that probably not but who's going to do anything about it that's the thing they're the they're the prosecutor they're not going to fucking do anything so the uh the sister's attorney said they want no publicity but they've been thrust into a constitutional controversy they said this is not a story about them having to choose sides. They love their mother, they love their father, and they believe he's innocent. They should have access to everything.

Court comes up. Death penalty is on the table. They take that off the table before the trial begins. Really? They take that off the table because the daughters, publicity-wise, they're out there saying he's innocent. It just looks bad, so they take that off the table because the daughters, publicity-wise, they're out there saying he's innocent. It just looks bad. So they take it off. And they have no physical evidence whatsoever.

Really? None. Yeah, nothing really. They got nothing. Now, they said, is there any, this is his attorney, is there any physical evidence, DNA, blood, hair, fibers, anything that matches Steve DeMocker in that house? There is no DNA of Steve DeMock demacher in that house there is no dna of steve demacher anywhere in the house nothing they do find however dna under carol's fingernails uh-oh you know who that belongs to oh i do mr nap not steve not jim no nope. An unknown person. Oh, no.

And they said if his lawyer, Steve's lawyer, said if he was the attacker, it shouldn't have. It should have been his DNA and it's not. The evidence, they said, will show that while he was on his bike, his cell phone was off. By the way, his phone was dead. Batteries dead. All of a sudden he's out of grid. Most people say you go out of grid, you go out of the grid, there's a reason why you're out of the grid. His phone died. It's not a big deal. Two weeks into the trial, Jesus Christ, the judge, Thomas B. Lindbergh, collapses in his chambers from a brain tumor. Everybody's sick up here. During this, so they have to have a huge delay in the in the trial

renee his girlfriend has a change of heart and dumps him during this period she said i always wanted to believe that steve had nothing to do with this and i always felt conflicted about that about whether he'd done it or not she said she's having it was having second thoughts about his behavior on the night of the murder she said said his break with routine, being without a charged battery for his phone, being without a flat tire kit to change his tire when he was the master of preparation for any outdoor adventure. She said that also she helped investigators

unearth a piece of evidence to what they called a go bag, which was stashed in a field outside his house. He had a bag packed in case he had to make a run for it out the back of the house. They said that he was she said he was in constantly gripped with fear, a fear of being arrested and obsessed with plans to flee, saying, I'm afraid I'm going to be arrested for a crime I didn't commit. That's what he said. So, yeah, that's wild.

So everybody along the way said, yes, it's OK to release the money, the insurance money to the girls. What they didn't know is that the girls used it for Steve's defense. Yeah. Wow. It's fucking crazy. They learned also that their older daughter, Katie, had argued with the father to save some of those funds for Charlotte's education. Yeah. with the father to save some of those funds for Charlotte's education. Steve said

to Katie, if it all has to be used for defense, then it all has to go to my defense. My life is in the balance and it's more important than Charlotte's college. Now he's the selfish one. But Renee, the girlfriend, talked about an anonymous email.

Okay, here we go. She said he called a few days before visitation. She was going to go see him and said he had found out some information of how Carol had been killed. During the jailhouse visit, Steve told Renee that his daughter Charlotte said that told him that his daughter Charlotte, that a mystery voice he could hear through a vent in his cell. Because you can hear a lot in prisons through cell vents. People talk through the vents, but it's a mystery voice he could hear through a vent in his cell. Because you can hear a lot in prisons through cell vents. People talk through the vents. But it's a mystery voice who told him who was really involved with Carol. He heard it in the murder.

So he heard it through the vents. Heard it through the prison grapevine. Through the prison grapevents. He said, they said, what did the voice told him? And they said people were looking for Jim Knapp because Jim Knapp was involved in some kind of prescription drug ring and that these people were coming to look for him either to collect money or get something. And they had gone into the house and encountered Carol instead of Jim. So they bashed her head in 50 times. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

They beat her with my golf club. Yeah. He wrote down the details that he had heard and showed his visitors uh the note he said that uh um yeah he's saying that like there's this crazy note so um it's it's very strange so yeah he says he absolutely heard a voice in the vent he said quote this is steve's words here comes these accounts of mr knapp's role in carol's. And I don't know if they're true, but I certainly want them investigated. Yeah. So Charlotte said she ended up sending an email, an anonymous email to the prosecutor, which turned out it's not anonymous.

They found out Charlotte sent it with Steve. So it's a fucking mess. They declare a mistrial. We got a drudge with a brain tumor, crazy emails. Takes three years to get this thing back in front of a jury. Oh, God, that's so much money. During that time, there's a document thing where they're saying the defense accused the county attorney and victim services offices of repeatedly viewing and printing sealed ex parte documents filed by the defense in the case. Ex parte filings are supposed to be available only to the judge and the party filing them.

However, in this case, the defense said employees of these county offices have been viewing these documents on a computer system they shared with the county clerk's office. They're saying they were cheating, looking at their notes, basically. They said this happened. looking at their notes, basically. They said this happened. They were viewed and printed. Sealed documents were viewed and printed 104 times by those in the offices and the sheriff's office. They called it Docugate.

It was a big deal. Why are they doing that? I don't know. Just showing each other, showing new recruits? They're cheating. This is what you might see. You're getting to see their side of shit that they're not allowed to see you're cheating you know exactly what they're going

to say in court so you can prepare for it that's all but isn't that discovery aren't you allowed to do that anyway not when it's stuff but what you're planning strategy wise some filings are private not for them you know what i mean so it's all complicated new defense counsel he gets this defense counsel says they cannot put him in the house and I feel good about that and having known Steve I firmly believe he didn't kill her and I feel that a reasonable jury would say well you can't put him in the house with this much blood how's it gonna how's it gonna work he's got no blood on him now the DNA it's suggested for years that there might be another suspect. Obviously, there's DNA found under her fingernails.

So by the second time the trial begins, though, they figured out who the DNA belongs to. Terrific. They were calling it like subject 618 or some shit, whatever the fuck it was. 603, Mr. 603. They were calling it. Isn't that so? I think it is. In early 2011, they took DNA from dozens of people

who might have come in contact with all these people. Nobody that she knows this DNA belongs to. So they said, why don't we go back to the DNA and look at the men's autopsies preceding hers that were done in the room? Maybe it was contamination.

So they started with the three autopsies done before hers and worked backwards. They took blood samples from Yavapai County Medical Examiner's Office, sent them to the crime lab. In mid-February, the cops get a call saying, you sitting down? Oh, God. Says, yeah. He said, you know that blood you sent up? It's tainters.

It matches the blood under the fingernails. Yeah, of course it does. It's tainter. matches the blood under the fingernails yeah of course it's tainter now he doesn't have the balls for this he said and uh the mr 603 was ronald burman whose autopsy they conducted right before carol's believable these sloppy shitty fucks did not clean the fucking table after they did you gross idiots blood seeped from an open bandaged hole over stitches and beerman's chest from a recent heart surgery uh he was died from natural causes and so this believable he's like a 70 year old man so they said bled all over her hand and then they took that sample unbelievable hour and a half before her autopsy that happened so

there you go they also said there's a there's photography of the deputy standing down the hall in the house carol's house and the dog is right there with them they tromped through the crime scene without any care of what they're preserving why didn't they seal the whole thing off which is true that should have been sealed off homicide detectives and forensic people are the only people allowed in there everybody else the fuck out that's are the only people allowed in there. Everybody else, the fuck out. That's what usually happens.

You're not in a bunny suit? Stay in the fucking driveway, Tanner. Stay in the driveway. That's right. No physical evidence to convict or, I mean, once you go in there and try to help the person. They did it all backwards. So they said no physical evidence, but it's money that they're worried about. They find emails between the couple showing they're still arguing about money.

But the defense is saying, nap, nap, nap. Defense says Jim Knapp was not psychologically stable. He was angry at Carol. He had a kind of romantic interest in her that appeared to be unreciprocated. And he was telling people that she was going to fund his investment

in this coffee franchise that he wanted to start. And she was going to be his partner and fund it with the money from the divorce. He found out that wasn't going to happen right before she died. So, yeah. So they said also the attorney said that just because Carol's phone went dead at 8 p.m. doesn't mean that's when she died. That just means that's when the phone went dead.

She was discovered after 10. So she was killed sometime between the phone went dead and the time when she was found. So there was time for Jim Knapp to get there and get out of there is their thing. They said also that Jim had said Jim was involved in a number of get-rich-quick schemes that ended up him being a victim of scamming all the time. quick schemes that ended up him being a victim of scamming all the time. He also was lying to people, including lots of people he knew about his – he had cancer in an effort to give him money. He had told somebody that he had stage four cancer and it had been miraculously cured and that doctors had told him they want to study him because he had stage four cancer and it was suddenly gone into remission. And there must be something in his genetic makeup that they can maybe, you know, model and mirror. I'm amazing.

I'm amazing. So they have some emails from him. One says from Steve to Carol, I will not be pushed any further. Carol, you have extracted all you will extract from me. You get to start clean while I dig out of a staggering hole. That was on June any further, Carol. You have extracted all you will extract from me. You get to start clean while I dig out of a staggering hole. That was on June 15th, though. That was three weeks earlier.

Yeah, they said that this is what Jan, the neighbor, says. He would play these reeling in games with her. One of the last conversations I had with Carol, she was absolutely in tears. I mean, just sobbing. I was like, Carol, now what? And she said, now that the divorce is final, Carol, now what? And she said, now that the divorce is final, he came to me last night and said, let's put this marriage back together. He wouldn't go away. So they're saying either it's money or he wouldn't go away. They bring the kids in. Charlotte gets on the stand. They said, did you ever see any violence?

She says, no. He said, did you ever see anyone throwing anything or doing anything like that? Charlotte says, I very vaguely remember my mom actually throwing something. I don't recall what it was. I think it was something heavy. That was the only argument where there was ever anything physical. Says here, you know, he's saying that Carol's tenant, Jim Knapp, is the killer. He's the only one with the he had a history of intimidating women. An ex-girlfriend of Knapp's, Julie Corwin, testified she became afraid of Knapp after their breakup. His last words in one of the emails was, you're not getting off that easy. And I didn't know what that went. It just left me hanging. I felt scared.

I didn't know if he was going to come up and shoot me. So they got that. The prosecution said that's what happened to Carol. They think she was rolled up in a carpet and beaten with the golf club. Her skull was shattered

like an eggshell. This is a beating murder by someone who had everything in the world to gain by getting rid of her. Absence of evidence is not evidence. If you cannot put him at this is his attorney. If you cannot put him at the scene, you cannot make sure that you have DNA, blood, hair, something to tie him

to the murder of Carol Kennedy and you have no case. So Steve said, I know I wasn't at her house that night and I'm innocent. Jury deliberates for days, a few days. The jury said there were questions in the jury room. A couple of jurors who wanted to talk about alternate scenarios. They just had to be convinced that there was nobody else because the girls had already lost so much.

That's what this juror says. So after three days, they come back and they find him guilty of murder, which is a tough one there. They really don't have any evidence here. They have slightly less evidence. They have less evidence than Scott Peterson by far here. Way less evidence than Scott Peterson. There's DNA all over the fucking place. Here there is nothing but a shoe print of shoes he might have owned three years ago.

I think he did it, but they don't have any proof of it the only thing that bothers the thing that bothers me most is it was done with a golf club he's missing one that's it and again in and out of that gate so many times he could be reaching shoes and absolutely but we need to find those that's fine though that's the thing yes absence of evidence isn't evidence like his lawyer said. Yeah. Because we can't find the golf club doesn't mean the golf club's a murder weapon. Because they're not positive a golf club's a murder weapon. They just say it would be consistent with a golf club.

So the jurors here, one of them said the pieces of evidence that started to sway me was definitely the shoe prints because that type of shoe is very rare. The fact that his phone was turned off was very unusual for him and the scratches concern me. This is all suspicions though. These aren't evidence. But you can't prove where those scratches came from. Yeah, but this is bad. We heard about the internet searches that he had done on how to make it look like a suicide. A homicide looked like a suicide. And nowhere

in the testimony did we see anything that would convince us that he was trying to write a book other than his sister saying she had been editing books with him. And if pointing a finger at Jim Knapp was trying to write a book other than his sister saying she had been editing books with him and if pointing a finger at jim knapp was supposed to raise reasonable doubt it didn't work they said we went through mr knapp's time timeline very carefully and we just could not make that work mr knapp did not kill carl or carl carol kennedy sentencing this is what steve's brother says if you want us to abandon ste, you need to show us a drop of DNA in that house, a drop of Carol's blood anywhere on his body, his bike, his car, his home, a witness, a video, something before we'll even begin to think that there's anything less than a conviction of an innocent man. His daughter begged for mercy also for him, said so much of what I value in myself.

I learned from that man. This is Charlotte. This is the same man who's accused today of killing my mother. Frankly, the lack of facts and lack of evidence in this case do not permit me the luxury of drawing such conclusions. You are faced with the question of whether to give my father the ability of parole in 25

years. I ask you to do that. I ask that you will not force the permanent loss of a second loved one. Rather, allow us to look forward to a time when our pain may slightly diminish and when we can heal again together. She's going to be a great doctor. Oh yeah, that's good. Well, she does something else. We'll find

out. Prosecutor says this defendant is a murdering, lying thief. No matter what anybody says about him today, he deserves the maximum sentence. Steve says, quote, I did not kill Carol. We loved each other for more than 20 years.

To believe me capable of violence against her is to doubt Carol's own judgment of me. Well, that was crafty. He put it on her. I would no more have harmed her than I would harm my daughters by taking her from them. I'd like to thank my family. I'd like to thank my daughters in particular to know how proud I am of the strength and grace with which they have both faced the loss of their mother and the loss of their father. I love you both. The judge says $750,000, $750,000 and your neurosurgeon, whatever.

The judge says the thing I can't get by is this horrific crime scene. I saw these pictures and I don't know if I'm going to be able to erase them from my mind. That doesn't matter, though. That's not evidence. But they're saying he's guilty, so now it's whatever. He said this is a premeditated murder. It was a brutal murder. And by all appearances, the motive was money.

So on count one, murder in the first degree, you may fuck off life without parole. So much for 25. So much for 25. So much for 25. In a later interview, they asked him, if you did not kill her, why do you think you're in jail right now? And he said, Steve said, well, that's a million-dollar question. It was so difficult to imagine that 12 people could look at that evidence and come up with a verdict beyond a reasonable doubt.

So 2016, he loses his appeal. It gets affirmed. And he also gets a fine of $700,000 restitution to the victims, which are his daughters. So that makes no sense because they had it and gave it to him. So legal fees back. Yeah. But the court is requiring that it be returned in another fashion. The kids, Charlotte graduated from college in 2014 with a degree in

finance oh she's gonna do it and did katherine went to law school and finished law school so she is a lawyer so there you go everybody that is prescott arizona and one hell of a twisted fucking tale that we don't know they certainly didn't have enough to convict him i'll tell you that much but they do need to change their slogan up there to don't die and they certainly didn't have enough to convict him i'll tell you that much but they do need to change their slogan up there to don't die and you have a pie yeah don't die and you have a pie that place sucks holy shit because we won't even come and say hi because we're confused fuck me so there you go everybody holy shit oh my if you enjoyed that you need to tell the world about it get on whatever app you're listening

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five bucks or more a month you can't beat it and you'll get a shout out in a minute here as well uh this week for crime for uh patreon for bonus what you're going to get and you get access to all of it crime and sports we're going to talk about 10 cent beer nights over the course of baseball and other sports that had it and then wonder why we had a riot afterwards baseball and other sports that had it and then wonder why we had a riot afterwards. And then for small town murder, we are going to talk about small town scams. Some of these small towns that the whole town's a scam.

They set it up so they could make pamphlets and get people's money from far away to move there to paradise or to their farm or to all this shit. And it turns out to be a dusty sinkhole. We're going to talk about those. I don't know. So often over the years. That turns out to be a dusty sinkhole. We're going to talk about those happening so often over the years. That's going to be fun.

Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports, and you will also get a shout-out at the end of the show. Actually, when is that, Jimmy? That's right goddamn now. Jimmy, hit me with them right now like a fucking seven wood to the fucking forehead. Let's do it. What you got for me? This week's executive producers are Wanda Lovejoy, Karen O'Donnell, Brayden Vanderblom.

What? Vanderblom. Hey. All right. Sure. All of you guys. Thank you so much. Thank you.

For being above and beyond way more than we deserve. Thank you so much. Other producers this week are Charles Emerson Winchester III, Mitch Kumstein, Peyton Meadows, Stephanie Ioga, Fartberg School for the Gifted, Captain Lou Albino, Charles Bird in Tokyo, Chris Davis, Happy Hour in Mansfield, PA, Brandi Huntley, Melissa Crothers, Tracy Keith, Janice Hill, Eros Tequila and Whiskey at Centennial Kennels up in Ontario, Kyle King, Samantha Alexander, Whitney Lee, Krista Werba, Renee Picard, Mike and Sarah Mellis, Cori Hamilton, Jason Ohanian, Beth Haas, Suckafury Becca, Lisa Yeone, Edward Depoy, Mariah Boswell,

Jonah with no last name, Kristen Southwick. Melanie Tolley. Christina Ward. Not Zach Galifianakis. Probably not then. A gal called Poppy. Taylor Shields. King with no last name. Joe DeMars.

Michael Grad. What is this? Called? Call him? Sheldon? Oh, boy. It corrected your name. It's not called.

What is it? Call him? Probably. Shite, I think. I don't know david foot it uh brandy mason kate christie jenny's got a i guess a question mark molly burbo patreon is what she's got michael tucneri and travis sandal aaron whittaker sean robinson anna gauld kelly nope that's gall uh kelly carter laura wood toodles with no last name, Sylvia Isaac, Chuck Stockler, Bonnie Cutlip, Nathan Summers, Corey Biss, Josh Antrum, Heather, no, that's Heaven, Heaven Lee, Nick Webb, Cole Rideout, Funk Ninja, Q Solomon, Stephanie Anderson, Andrew Lane, Tate Sandy, Mimi Wee.

Okay. Mookie Blaylock. Probably not that one, though. David Dorsheimer. Dorsheimer? Christopher Quinn. He's not spending it on booze and driving, so. Charity with no last name.

Camille Stelmachowicz-Morolf. Stelmachowicz. Yeah. Oh, boy. Sarah McDougall. Zangreb Zagana. Jennifer Robinson. Manda Chris, Michael with no last name, Tess Bukok. Whoa, boy. Cody Peck, Daniel Jennings, Shannon Doyle, Bryce Carlson, Hannah Johnson, Michelle Womack, Thomas Haggart, Daryl Stokland, S. Galender, Carrie Roberts, Joseph Molina, Lisa Hairston, Bo Ta.

Bo Ta. Okay. Maybe they were trying to say Bo Tai, or is that really their name? Bo? Bo Tux. Oh, maybe. Al with no last name. Cameron Merrill, Renee Lopez-Clement with no last name.

Laura R. Jacob Walker, Jana Wright, IAT Win Mom. Kyle Pryne, Stephanie Romines, I think win mom. Kyle Prime, Stephanie Romines. I think Pat Bermont. Start over. Claire Boland, Tori Tori Genie with

no last name, Parker Satterfield. Dustin Goldman, Sarah May Fisher, Chattitude. Chattitude Fitness, Rajco. What is this? I don't know. Andrea Plotz, Sean Robinson, Seth Hansen, CDL Sphinx, William Simpson, Justin Kern, Rory Nankervis. Nankervis?

Nankervis? It's Nankervis, isn't it? I don't know what it is. Good job either way. Debra Hardwick, Kevin Click, Justin Stark, Anthony Reck, Lucian from West God. West by God. What's West by God? Where is that?

I don't know. From the West by God? I think that's what it is. By God? I don't know what it is. Ben Tillotson, Francesca Vargas. Francesco Vargas. That's a male or female pronunciation.

I was going to say. That's off. Francesco is the guy's name. I see. Who knows? What do we know? It's Francesco. Raymond Richard, Easton Holiday, Anna Lee Alston, Stephen Devine, the 89 Broncos, I'll take that.

Buck Melanoma, Moley Russell's Wart, Emily Tucker, Heather Autry, Judy Pedska, Pesdek. Pesdek. This is ridiculous. Janice White, Dustin Irvin, Nat with no last name, Roy Grayley, Polina, Poliana, Poliana Feebles, Febles, Feblees, Feeblees. Feebles. Justin Pimentel, Brooke Now, Jalen V, Fine Great, Ryan Connor, Sonia Perkins, Brandi Jadgman, Christy Kufchak, Brian Cathers, Chris Lees, Rip Cobe. I don't know.

What is that? I don't know what's happening. You look so confused right now. Bunny Taylor, Jamie DeLong, Kyle Jones, Sherry with no last name, Brad Dietzler, Rebecca Smith, Kimmy Greco, Sarah Walters, Leah Grover, Katie Ann Liam, Heather Hammer, Nope, that's Hammer, Hammer Hayes, Sarah Byrne, Chris Hughes, Hunter Brannon, April Maynard, Kathy Kopech, Christy Swain, Alex Doyle, Dylan Webb, Lisa with no last name, Lysa maybe? Scott Anderson, six.

Alberto Garcia, Callie, Callie, Kaylee maybe? Lobster Bratt, Kelly Smith, Riley with no last name, Big Red, Daniel Hatton, Madeline, and Christopher Colbert. Not just one, just both. Stuart Domini, Domini, Domini, Domini, Domini, Samantha.io, Madeline George, Aaron Waddell, Christine Salmons, Matt Rodriguez-Haley, Terry Hilowski, Terry, you got a tough name daniel crowley michael my shin mishon mishon snow uh meachin it's not meachin deborah harrison james gardner andy with no last name sabrina england michael man melody harper kelly porter trisha dunphy sonia sonia butcher uh ruth brush but yes Hand, Victoria, Victory, Victoria, there's

a name, RJ the Psycho, Hayden Galbraith, Keith and Sharon Maynard, both of them, god damn it, Dwayne Montgomery, Tammy Christensen, Emily Wilson, Amanda Amanda, Kaz with no last name, Lauren Meager, Meager maybe, Rebecca Hunt, Lisa Thomas, Jason Timothy, Mark Langston Jr., Teresa Lay, I think, Matt Nobles, possibly, Mary Kowalski, McKenna Smallbone, and

Alicia Frakes and all of our patrons. You guys are fantastic. Thank you everybody so much. From the bottom of our hearts, we do appreciate every goddamn thing that you do for us all the time. Never stops, and we'll never stop either. So we'll be here for you. If you're there for us, we'll be here for you.

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