Small Town Murder - #367 - Band Names & Blood Stains - Hockessin, Delaware

Episode Date: March 9, 2023

This week, in Hockessin, Delaware, a bright, successful couple has only one major fault... their loser son, who can't seem to make his way in the world, despite all the support, and money that he gets from his parents. Instead, he joins bad bands, with crazy names, drops out of several colleges, and gets kicked out of the Marines, in less than 2 weeks. This all ends in a horribly brutal, cruel, and cold blooded attack on the people who made his easy life possible. But he's not done, yet. He hits the road, resulting in more horrifying murder!!Along the way, we find out that nobody knows that Delaware is a place, that your band's name may say something about its musical quality, and that even if a witchcraft spell is placed upon you, you can't go around the country, killing people!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Hocus in Delaware, a terrifying murder scene leads police on a hunt for a terrifying young man with a bloodlust and a desire to kill again. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on just a crazy, this is insane, as normal, but it's such a wild episode today. That's why we're here. That's why we're here.

It's like, this is a nail biter. It's a heartbeat. It's a lot. So we'll get into all that. Before we do, very quickly, got to tell you top of the show. Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com right now. tell you top of the show head over to shut up and give me murder.com right now first of all tons of merchandise but also tickets to live shows hey the rest of the year on sale right now you can get your tickets to everything chicago minneapolis denver salt lake philly boston dallas atlanta

san diego we're coming everywhere get a charlotte Get in there. And yeah, we're going to DC. There's another one. Atlanta. Atlanta. We said Atlanta. Did we? I don't know. Get your tickets right now.

And of course, the show's coming up in March. We have in Seattle and Portland, two shows each there. And then we have in May, Detroit and Pittsburgh. And then the rest of them are on sale too. We're very excited. Also- April 20th. April 20th.

Virtual live show, 420. I gonna get jimmy real stoned you can watch it happen and watch when he's stoned the giggling is amazing it's just amazing you want to talk about jimmy's laugh anyway is wonderful but when he's stoned it's another level of love laughter so we cannot wait for that i'm looking forward to it just like a regular live show but you're in your living room you can get it right, and it's available all the way up to seven days after the show, after April 20th, and you can get your tickets at any time. Watch it. Watch it 100 times.

Do whatever you want. Shut up and give me murder.com. Also, coming out, still, people have been asking. Yeah, we've just been plugging the live shows. Your Stupid Opinions, our new show, new podcast coming out where we go over reviews of, the internet is all reviews, and we're going to go over reviews of everything from an Arby's in Tallahassee to a water aerobics class in Walla Walla, Washington. Everything in between, you can imagine.

People will complain. Your Stupid Opinions coming soon. We just had to get our business ducks in a row. So look for it about a month or so. Things aren't easy. We'll keep it up. Don't worry about that. We'll tell you about it. Patreon.com slash crime and sports.

Right. Bonus material there. Tons of stuff. Anybody $5 or above, you get access to the whole back catalog, over 150 bonus episodes to binge on. And then every other week you're going to get two new episodes, one crime and sports, one small-town murder, and you get access to it all. This week we're going to talk about some fun stuff.

For crime and sports we're going to talk about these creepy pictures that people keep sending us and tweeting at us and posting at us about these death row baseball teams from, like, 1903. And it's just these, you know know 10 damned souls in their uniforms with like an eight-year-old sitting in front of them who's the most dangerous one the ball boy what's he in for you know what i mean so we're going to talk about those and then for small town murder we're going to talk about something really fun defunct theme parks so theme parks that didn't work that are now hulking masses of steel and broken roller coasters and shit.

We're going to talk about all of that. A bunch of OSHA violations. Oh, yeah. Bad ideas, things in the middle of nowhere, horrible accidents. That's all going to be there. We'll talk about it. That is patreon.com slash crime and sports. Very quickly, the disclaimer, it's a comedy show, everybody.

It's a comedy show. We're comedians, so jokes are going to be made, and people are going to die. Both of those things are going to happen. But what we try to do is we try to make it a little kind of tasteful, you know what I mean? We go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why, James? Because we're

assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's how that works. So if that sounds good to you, holy hell do we have a crazy story for you. Great! You think true crime and comedy should never ever go together? We might not be for you. Either way no complaining later because we warned you. That said,

that said, I think it's time. Where are you? At the vet right now with your pet? Yeah? You and your dog. Getting his glands expressed? Dog's up on the table with a thermometer up its ass. You look that dog right in the eye. Right in the snout.

And then the two of you turn to the vet, and you and your dog simultaneously shout, Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, Jimmy. All right. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Terrific. Let's do it. We are going to delaware this week

oh i like to call delaware delaware the forgotten state because whenever anybody brings it up you go oh yeah delaware's a state yeah it's there that's right i forgot about that i haven't been there in a minute i think it's by a maryland i know of but i don't know why delaware just gets lost in the mix there so it's uh this is northwestern Delaware, which Delaware's set up kind of weird, so it's hard to say what direction it's in. The first time I met somebody from there, I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. You go, yeah, you exist, huh?

Holy shit. Wow, look at that. Look at you. Big drug problems there. Holy fuck. I think you can say that pretty much for- Probably. Right?

Pretty much anywhere. You live in Phoenix. Have you been on a free much for- Probably. Right? Pretty much anywhere. You live in Phoenix. Where, I mean, have you been on a freeway off-ramp lately? Pretty big drug problem. Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. A guy will be there with his dog. Both of them have a drug problem.

You're like, this is weird. You don't see a lot of dog junkies, but in Phoenix you do. The dog and the man's scabs match. That's nice. That's so sad. The dog and the man scabs match. That's nice. That's so sad.

So, Hocasin is how. This one is pronounced different ways, but the locals. I saw people advertising their local businesses and saying Hocasin. So, they don't want to piss people off that are going to give them money locally. So, it's Hocasin. That's how they say it. Don't give a fuck about Hocasin. Nope. Don't care it's

about 20 minutes to wilmington delaware uh about an hour to cheswold cheswald i can't remember how you say that that was episode 313 that's the last man who was hanged in delaware that was a crazy story this is new aldi yeah yeah exactly newcastle county uh area code 302. The name, obviously, will hocus in. How the hell did you come up with that? I'd love to know. Yeah, that would help. Well, apparently, it's believed to be derived from one of the first settled properties, which was called Occasion and settled by William Cox.

And this was the location of the first Quaker meetings in the area before they built a meeting house to meet in and go over their oatmeal strategy for the week. I don't know what they're doing. Far too many clothes they have on. So everybody's growing beards but no mustaches. And let's put, like, strawberries in the oatmeal, okay? All right. Break.

Here we go. Let's do it. Off with the st. Okay? All right. Break. Here we go. Let's do it. Off with the stash. Off with it. So, yeah, the earliest known use of the word occasion was in 1734. Not the word, but the – or hoccuson, I guess it would be here. But it was in 1734 with a property deed with this property. So who knows how they mashed these names together

and it became Hawkinson, but whatever. Missionary priests from Maryland established the Coffee Run Mission in 1790. Well, that'll get people in there. Coffee Run, everybody. All right. Hey, I didn't know we were going to get into all this stuff. I thought it was just a coffee run.

That's how you get people into God right there. I guess so, yeah. Reviews of this town. We have, here's five stars. Great. They love it, damn it. This is the best. Yeah.

I have met all of my closest friends in Hocus and Delaware, all of my friends that I will know forever. I've had the greatest memories living here in this little town. It is a small, safe town. Me and my friends, when we were younger, would walk all through town just to go to Wawa for fun. If you're from somewhere else, not the

East Coast, Wawa is a gas station, deli. It's just a wonderful place where great things happen. Great coffee. Great coffee. You can watch fights at three in the morning. It's amazing. While someone's making you a fresh sandwich. You're like, I gotta wait five minutes for this fresh sandwich two people are gonna brawl yeah unflinchingly there's a man's ass on the fucking tile right now cheddar on that yeah please

mustard no no mayo unbelievable i have also been employed at the same restaurant for three years in hokasen it's been the best job ever i love this town so much wow i love how easy to please that person wow uh five stars peaceful areas for introverted people that's the first sentence which sounds like a spa it sounds like an advertisement for a weird spa. Peaceful areas for introverted people. There's like piano music and harps and shit playing over it. Forests and trees cover the most part, even on the road. Even on the road.

How do forests and trees cover the roads? Yeah, you got a forest on your road. That's not a road. That's not a road. That's a forest. And most buildings here look ancient, as in bricks, but really cozy. Oh, boy. Air quality is awesome

since it's not a bigger major city. I've never heard that described before. Air quality is fucking rocking, bro. Check it out. Did you hear that? Man, that's some good stuff in my lungs. Wide open sinuses. Like somebody's like... Ooh, you feel that air right now? No. good stuff in my lungs. Wide open sinuses. Like somebody's like.

Oh, you feel that air right now? No. Hold it in, man. You got to hold it. Don't cough. Don't cough it. All right, man. That's some good air right there, buddy.

Yeah. I got full throttle. Look at that. Woo! Woo! If your dream house is something like a house on a hill looking out to a forest with the closest neighbor being 100 feet away, then congratulations. This is the place. That's awesome. That sounds good.

Yeah. Four stars. Hocusin is a nice place for everyone involved. It is the Red Clay School District, which is wonderful. The people around are safe and kind. The schools are good. It's a good place to be. They don't teach you different fucking superlatives, though, I guess.

It's good. Everything's just good. It's good. This is for a college scholarship, but Hocusin is a nice place to grow up. I don't know what that means at all. Oh, I've heard of this. People write reviews for a college scholarship. So they write – I swear to God.

How could those two things go together? I don't know. How does that happen? I think the website offers college – like does a drawing. Oh, my God. This just broke my brain. So you get on here. I've heard of that.

Give your stupid opinion on something, as our show is called, coming up. And they'll give you 10 grand towards college or something. Send you to college for that? Yeah. No. No. If you stop reviewing things, I'll help you with college. How's that?

Let's make a deal that way. Let's go the other way. Jimmy, you almost died. Oh, gross. Oh, oh shit that's disgusting when you laugh so hard that you go oh gross that's my favorite thing ever that means that was that was an organ i was gonna say that means an organ came out that's pretty fun nothing got on me luckily my throat has been fucked all week i've been drinking drinking these goddamn teas, and I just tasted the tea again. There was a spray that fell about a foot short of me.

I was lucky I went with a bigger table on this one. Oh, Jesus. Holy shit. Okay, here's three stars. This is a funny one here. Three stars. Could be worse, which is a great way to start something out. Could be worse.

That sounds like an Italian guy. How something out. Could be worse. That sounds like an Italian guy. How is it? Could be worse. My tip's going to be shit. Could have been worse. I almost moved to New Jersey. It smells like fertilizer some days. So much for that air quality.

We're not from here, and Delaware is a temporary situation for my family. I highly recommend not living in Delaware if you're not from here and delaware is a temporary situation for my family i highly recommend not living in delaware if you're not from delaware it's weird what's the top five thing to what like top five worst things to smell rubber fire right uh yeah hair yeah something on fire uh fertilizer is probably top three. That's not great. Shit smells bad enough. The worst.

Anything that smells bad, even things that smell good, if you set them on fire, sometimes they don't smell good anymore. Everything that smells bad, if you set it on fire, just smells worse. It's not great. No, it's burning shit. Even when you drive by it with the windows up and the circulator on, you still always look around the car and go, who was it? What happened? Who did that? Jesus Christ.

People here, population 13,600. So smallish town. Male, females about normal. A little over 50% female. Median age is 47.8, which is like 10 years older than the national average. And that's because tons of people here are over 45. Is that right? All the demographics over 45 are high.

85 and over, there's more than twice as many people as normal. Oh, boy. It's a lot of older people here. There's money here. There is money here, by the way. Family here, 62% are married, which is above the normal, way higher than the normal. It's usually 50-50.

Race of this town town 81.8 white 4 black 12 asian which is more than double the average i don't know what's what the draw particular asian draw here is but i don't know something 0.4 hispanic which is insanely low. Incredibly low. Very low. Religion here, 46.9% religious, a little less than the 50%. And of course, as we know, even though it's a mid-Atlantic state, it is Catholic taking home the thing here. And that is because Catholics, as we know,

are the Baptists of the mid-Atlantic region near the ocean. Still north of Mason-Dixon, right? Yeah, yeah. 0.7 jewish so almost everybody we almost had an hava nagila here but it's just damn it just not gonna make it almost almost here uh politically last election 67.8 percent voted democratic 30.7 percent republican one point five percent independent. The median household income here is one hundred twenty one thousand four hundred thirty two dollars a year. Oh, more than double.

Obviously, it's normally about fifty five thousand. So my God. Yeah. More than double the cost of living. One hundred being regular average here. It's one twenty five. Oh, yeah. And it's a median home cost here 481 100 which is well over the

national average so it's it's kind of an old money place it seems like this is like a lot of like doctors and lawyers and people like that live here for some reason it's a maybe people that got out of out of dc out of maryland out of Virginia, Arlington area just to get into a country. And it seems like people don't retire away from here. So people with money will stay here and keep their houses. It's one of those things. So if we've convinced you to start looking, we have for you the Hocus in Delaware real estate report. The average two bedroom rental here goes for about $1,523, which is expensive.

The national average is $1,200, but it's high. And even that sounds fucking so hard to do. Here is a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,825-square-foot dead grandma special, everybody. Yeah. Grandma died, and we're selling it off and splitting the money. A state sale. Yeah. Brick ranch house, just shit all in it. Grandma's stuff everywhere.

And, yeah, that's what it looks like is happening here. That house is $351,000. Oh. So, you know, it's a nice house. It looks nice from the outside, but you definitely need some updating in there. Need some work, yeah. Here's a six-bedroom, five-bath. So that's nice.

2,400 square feet. It's a very weird house. It has two front doors right next to each other, which is weird. But it's not like a— No, I was going to say it doesn't, like, open together. They're two separate front doors, but it's one house. It's not like a french no i say it doesn't like open together they're two separate front doors but it's one house it's not like a two-family house which there's this are bored there's some weird new england houses that have that as well really yeah that's a weird like uh

massachusetts and the two front doors yeah i don't know what the fuck it is or why it happened like that but maybe every time i've seen it i thought it was a duplex yeah but it's not it's very strange they would do it on like farmhouses too it's it's a really weird place um they have it set up really strange in here they have the the daughter's room has a bed it looks like it's for a little girl but there's also what looks like like a middle manager's office set up in there as well which is very strange like a stress ball and pictures of the kids it's a weird it's a weird setup man i don't know what's going on there it's a lady's yoga studio and little sally's room i'm not sure 529 999 for that though wow and then finally five bedroom five bath t-bowl for each and every b-hole. Everybody.

3,300 square feet. This is on almost 10 acres. It's like 9.7 acres. It is a beautiful house. It's really nice. It's hard to tell the inside of the house because they photoshopped pictures of furniture in there. Why do they? Oh, I know.

Because it's cheaper than staging it. Rather than staging it, there's a picture, and it's hard to get a good idea of what's going on in there but beautiful property 1 million 185 thousand dollars though so that's not bad a little i mean if you're looking for a house of that cost that's pretty good but yeah it's expensive square feet on 10 acres that's fantastic oh it's nice but that's still expensive as fuck oh my god i don't have that there's a lot of money. Things to do in this place here. These are all kind of from Wilmington in that area because it's 20 minutes away from Wilmington.

So, Hocusin doesn't really have a whole lot to do. Is that the capital of Wilmington? Yes. No, Dover. Dover, Dover. Yeah, Dover. For some reason, you said Wilmington. I thought Dover and said Wilmington.

And then you were like, Dover. And I'm like, I'm a moron. Yes, it's Dover and said Wilmington, and then you were like Dover, and I'm like, I'm a moron. Yes, it's Dover. So this is the second annual Delaware Hammock Festival, everybody. It's coming. Hey, I can get on board with this. That's right. It will offer live music featuring a DJ, which is not live music.

That's a DJ. That's a guy from some play. Those aren't the same thing. You either have live music or a DJ who plays music. But it's not live music. Live music is people playing instruments. The DJ is playing what they've made on an album and then putting it on. That's the opposite of live music.

Okay, I'm sorry. It's hosted by Richard F. Blackwell of Blackwell 360 Entertainment. So he's going to rock that that shit they're on hammocks if people are on hammocks your job is pretty easy as a dj it's not like yeah they're not up dancing well yeah they're on fucking hammocks of course they're not dancing what do you think easy listening sir let's go fake here yeah let's go what are we doing to put on some john tesh and let's kick back. What's happening here? Hit that smooth jazz. I don't give a shit. I've got a hammock.

Let's hear it. I want to hear some alto sax here. Let's go. Kenny G. Where's Kenny G? Put him on. So there's hammocks available for rent here. So you can do that.

Just on site or do you take it home? Well, no, I think you just rent it. You're not buying a hammock over. I'm sure they should have hammocks for sale, but it's $15 without a hammock. And then with a hammock, it's $35. So to get into this, there's also the beer, bourbon and barbecue festival, which all the bees I love those. That sounds like good stuff right here.

I like that. It's the first annual. It's a great day of beer, sipping,bon tasting, music listening, cigar smoking, and barbecue eating. And those are all apostrophe. God, all apostrophe. No, geez. But, I mean, all of those things are good. You bet.

They didn't have to make it sound so douchey. They could have just. Yeah. You don't have to make it sound douchey. Just say we have these things and I'll be there. We got it. We got all of it. Your admission buys you a sampling glass so you can sample all the beers and bourbons

and all that more shit. You receive a souvenir glass, all you care to taste beer and bourbon as you stroll from table to table. So you can get shit hammered if you want to. All you can taste. Oh, yeah. Barbecue galore, it says. Yeah.

Pulled pork from whole hogs, ribs, brisket, chicken, sausages, and all the fixings you can imagine, everybody, even fixings. We'll keep the portions heavy and the prices low. You mix this with the hammock festival and you've got yourself a day. That's what I'm saying. You go here, then you wander to the hammock festival for some smooth jazz and some nap time. And a nap. It's going to be great. You go here, then you wander to the hammock festival for some smooth jazz and some nap time.

It's going to be great. You got the itis hardcore. You're going to nap that shit out. This is a, this is a, should be called the itis festival. Cause you're going to be like, Oh,

I got to, I got to sleep here. Itis and beaties. Oh man. The shrine of swine is there. What? Enjoy whole hogs during each season. Pork worship at its finest.

Don't like that. Pork worship. There's also Connect Four, Giant Jenga, Basketball, Ping Pong, and so much more. Because when you're drunk and full of pork, you really want a game that challenges both both both your side to side quickness and manual dexterity when you're full of booze and pork those both of those things it's gonna go very well with a cigar in your hand and a sampler glass oh man um live music uh here rock rock and this this one has live music this one's not the yeah uh rock and blues music on the main stage uh there's also hot sauces barbecue accessories there's a vip area and they say

this will sell out so you bet it will i mean i don't know why it wouldn't it seems great i don't see how that doesn't get everybody that's a damn good target audience right no no fucking pets though what no pets no pets. No pets. Don't bring your fucking dog. No dog. I don't know how much it is, though. It doesn't list a price, which doesn't make sense here. But whatever.

Get in there and get your beer and bourbon and booze and boobs and whatever else they got. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here. Property crime is right at average, like very close to almost exactly and then violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime is exactly average exactly average so it's exactly average on crime that said let's talk about a murder that is there's nothing average about it is insane so it's or below i think depending on how you're looking at it it's okay it's depraved. So below.

Oh, boy. It's pretty bad. It's bad stuff. So let's talk about this. First of all, got to give credit to an article here that had an amazing recap of this from 2020 because it's an older case from 1988. The case is with this article from the News Journal in Delaware and also Delaware Online, they both had the same articles. It was a four-part series on the whole thing. Yeah, over four days. Really good.

Written by Patricia Tallarico, Esteban Parra, and Jerry Habreken. So there you go. Delaware News Journal. So you've got to give credit, man. When people do good work, you've got to shout that shit out because it's rare, too, honestly. So most of the time it's just like copy-pasted from AP articles and shit that local papers do. But they really went into this deep. It is fascinating to see so many articles online that are word-for-word exactly the same.

Yeah, yeah. And they're just in different publications. It's like, come on, motherfucker. Find some more details. Well, the worst part is they'll be word for word except for two sentences which are different. So if you're doing research on something, you have to read every one of those articles looking for maybe if they have an extra sentence in it. It's the most frustrating thing in the world, Jimmy, I'm telling you.

So let's go back in time a little bit here. Okay. Let's go back to 1988 in the old time machine. Dark times in the late 80s bad bad clothes bad music bad everything bad stuff i was seven i don't know as well i'm a kid but looking back at it now i'm going i loved it at the time i was a little kid i didn't care i was like hulk hogan's pretty cool and you know don mattingly's all right like eddie murphy but outside of that you know now i look back on it and i'm like jesus what the hell were you wearing back then everybody and i've granted i've got trauma but the times changed so rapidly i think that's

that's a big problem too that times changed so fast we had such an acceleration i i put the 80s uh into the 70s and the 90s into the 80s and 2000s you know i don't remember things the way they really occur luckily it's a muddle of shit either way so you know what i think you're okay it all sucks really so back in 1988 let's talk about a nice couple shall we here let's talk about dr martin cohen yeah yeah we don't get a lot of doctors on this show not a lot of very few yeah very few unless that's like a nickname for him because he knows how to like skin a rabbit the fastest or some shit you know old doc cohen from up in the holler like that's our normal normal deal here is a biker and they call him doc because cooter was taken yeah like oh there's already a cooter

buddy sorry he's like shit man my whole family been calling me cooter since I was two. Now, Dr. Martin Cohen is a clinical psychologist. Okay. So that sounds like a lot of school. Clinical psychologist. He's originally from New York. In 1988, he's 59 years old. Really?

Yeah, 59. He's got a wife named Ethel. So Ethel Cohen here. She's a few years older. She's like four or five years older than him. So she's originally from Chicago. She is an occupational therapist. She has at one point was in a Broadway show when she was young.

Really? She was a dancer in a dance background in the Broadway show here and was a u.s army instrumental mechanic oh my god yes that's pretty cool they do a wide range of shit she does that's yeah i dance i yeah take care of people and also i can fix your compass if that's a problem if it's an instrumental mechanic i assume yeah a lot of compass fixing i know i'm looking south and it's pointing north, man. I need help. Give it to old Ethel here. Give it to Ethel. She'll fix it. She fixes shit.

She is known as a bubbly, outgoing person. Everybody describes the word bubbly comes up a lot. So she's got a great personality. Apparently very, very nice. She's the type that they say everyone who knew her loved her. Yeah. Yeah. They met the Coens while they worked together at the Mental Health Institute in Jacksonville, Illinois.

Oh. Which I don't know if I was aware there was a Jacksonville, Illinois. Not sure about that. That's fascinating. That is really interesting. So Ethel would also perform in community theater in Illinois and used to give what was called humorous talks. I don't know what that like. Is that like Mark Twain style?

Yeah. Just going to spin a yarn. Yeah. I don't know what she's doing here. Yeah. I don't know. I guess it's like theatery in a theatery way, like monologue type things. Maybe.

She also would advise activity directors at nursing homes was another job. Fuck shit. So yeah. Smart as shit. Yeah. They're both very educated, very smart people here. Now, by the mid to late 80s, we'll talk about this. Ethel's health is not in great shape.

Really? She's overweight. She has high blood pressure, knee problems Arthritis Walks with a cane Yeah Her body's not doing wonderful By this time Yeah Now they have a son

These two They have one child Great They have one child He is Charles Mark Cohen And he's known as Charlie To everybody And he is born in 1964

Okay So yeah And they really dote on Charlie because he's their only child. Yeah, they do well for themselves. They make good livings, and they have one child. Awesome. What a life. Remember those kids?

Remember those kids? You're like, oh, man. Like the mom would pick the kid up from school in a BMW, and they drive away, and you're like, oh, you're going to some practice thing for some sport that costs money aren't you oh shit she loves you doesn't she wow that's amazing you have like name brand soda don't you fuck you legit love that's actual your dad care when he says how was your day he fucking means it or he doesn't but you don't care because you have all the Nintendo games you want in 1987. So who cares?

I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. Bye-bye. hearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky and part comedy. The stories we cover are well researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing.

This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes,

you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus in the wondery app or on apple podcasts so charlie um he was a little bit she the mother especially ethel was really like doting on char, which I mean is like to a big, what he would call a stereotypical way. He called her a, quote, typical overprotective Jewish mother is what Charlie called her. That's just how she was. He said he envied his friends who had siblings.

He was the opposite. Is that right? He wanted siblings. Yeah, this guy. You're telling me people oftentimes want the opposite life they have? Weird, right? Grass is greener, huh? Strange.

Dude, Charlie, it's not better. I promise. Charlie, we could have switched places. No problem. I'd have gladly. He also said his father's very demanding in terms of academics and things like that. His father wants him to be hot shit. He wants him to do well like he did.

So now we get to work. Yeah. Yeah. Charlie is a good looking young guy. He's about five, 10, but he's like muscular too. He's like in real good shape.

And, uh, you know, his blue eyes, he's attractive, an attractive young man. He wants to be later on in school. he'll be very athletic and things, too. He's like a really good tennis player.

And then later on, though, and even then, he has dreams of becoming an artist or maybe a rock star. He's not sure. So, you know, one of the two. You know how that is when you're a kid. He wants to be a bad boy because he's rich. That's wild when you're a rich kid. You can actually think of artist or rock star as like a real profession because your parents will buy you like an amp and stuff like that. You can afford everything.

That's wild, man. That is a different kind of life. You can literally buy the lifestyle. That's awesome. Man, that's crazy. Yeah, there's a lot of comedians in the world that do that. Yeah, they do. A lot of agents kids out there.

Buying bullshit. Somehow working the scene that aren't any good. Buying this minus depression. Thank you. Thank you very much. So he was, he's a strange kid though. And he's known to his family and friends as a strange guy. He, later on at one point, he'll shave his head into a mohawk.

Like a hard Travis Bickle mohawk. Really? Taxi driver mohawk. Not even a Mr. T. Smooth on the side. Bald and just one line down the middle. One of those. Which looks cool on a muscular black guy with tons of gold chains who talks like this.

That looks cool. On a teenage white kid, it looks crazy. On his way to tennis, it's weird. It looks insane, yeah. On the court, that looks real weird. Bright white and shit, too, because it hasn't seen the sun. Trimmed with Prince and Penn brand clothing is weird it's so strange man he's going for a real andre agassi thing i guess so he's a great tennis player though at

galesburg high school and he's he's popular he's considered funny smart good looking athletic popular life is good for him i mean jesus christ but at the same time a friend of his called him this is interesting listen to all this stuff this is really weird called him the class clown and what this this whole paragraph and everything is very much familiar called him the class clown and said quote he loved to walk into a packed McDonald's restaurant at noon, throw himself on the floor and feign an epileptic seizure. That sounds familiar, doesn't it? I know who does that.

Who else do we know that did that? Jeff Dahmer loves that shit. Exactly how everybody described him as the class clown. Yeah. And they said that was his main form of comedy, was doing that. Disrupting public shit. And this is going on at the exact same time Dahmer's doing it in his high school. Yeah.

Which is so fucking weird. That's absurd. Yeah. This this all of this. The Midwest. What's going on in the Midwest, everybody? What's happening over there? So his friend said, quote, as he would thrash around on the floor, good Samaritans would try to hold him in place and keep him from swallowing his tongue.

Restaurant workers, restaurant workers would call for paramedics. But as soon as the emergency personnel arrived, Charlie would stand up, brush himself off and say, oh, never mind, and walk out, which is exactly what Jeffrey Dahmer did. Exactly. That's wild. Exactly what Dahmer did. That's so fucking weird the psychology there is yeah strange to me there's a dude he's got kind of the similar parent thing structure exactly too yeah smart scientist father clinical psychologist father

overbearing same thing it's very weird it's very strange so yeah he says he would that's a weird control thing i'm going to control this environment i'm not only going to make people laugh but i'm also going to make people rush to me and be worried and then and then they'll be then they're like whoa what the hell just happened then i'll freak them out man yeah it's really a weird thing one time he his friend said he went to school dressed completely like superman okay like in a full superman costume high school nope not seven not halloween just showed up in march at 15 years old wearing a full superman costume fascinating which now would be considered probably i don't know

more normal i guess because people cosplay and shit but in you know 1979 that wasn't considered normal behavior that was weird and another time he just wore he wore a red velvet dress with fishnet stockings just to do it just to freak people out he liked if he liked to freak people out in 1979 yeah yeah yeah yeah they lived in uh jacksonville illinois so i mean in a small town in Illinois. He's freaking out. Oh, man. He's trying to jolt the squares a little bit there. That'll raise some eyebrows. Yeah.

Another friend said that he would wear army fatigues one day, like full army fatigues. And the next day, he'd be in like full punk rock shit. Like total. He'd just switch who he was from day to day. You'd never know. He didn't have a style or, you know, that kid's a headbanger or this guy or a skater or whatever. He's just got costumes. Who knows what he, yeah, that's what he is.

Fascinating. No one knows what his real self is really. So he's called a bright athletic student. Very straight laced besides his, you know, silliness. Corky shit, yeah. Everybody said junior year things changed a little bit. A friend of his named John Simmons said that Charlie, quote, began to use cocaine and he changed. Oh.

Which he'll do it. Yeah. First of all, in the 1979, 1980, coke was expensive. Yeah. I mean, it's still expensive, but it was like. It sure is. It didn't go down in price till you know 83 84 85 when they started really flooding the market with it it was fucking expensive back then

for a high school kid to be able to afford coke right wow i mean rich kid yeah i'm lucky that you know you could buy a nickel bag of weed but that kind of shit was expensive so yeah we could all pitch in on a fucking bag of weed but coke's too expensive so he uh they said that's when he began to wear his hair in a mohawk one time just shaved his head bald which was also weird back then for a high school kid to do it was weird when i was in high school too yeah very weird straight bald is weird for no reason like you have hair what are you doing why are you doing that? So he would wear real weird clothes.

He'd wear one black and one red shoe, stuff like that. Which isn't that strange, but he never really had a girlfriend, rarely dated anybody, which is strange. When he graduated, his friend said at graduation he came in shorts. Awesome. With pant legs he came in shorts. Awesome. With pant legs taped to the shorts. Why? Technically, they're pants. Yeah.

Yeah. What a weird thing. Were his feet in them or were they just kind of taped to his legs? No, no, no. Just taped to the, just dangling in front like, you know, you could rip them off. Just hanging in front like, see, I'm wearing pants. Interesting. He also said that he liked wearing Halloween costumes that were on the twisted side, which, again, wasn't that normal in the late 70s. That was, you know, it was you were one of like five things in the late 70s.

There wasn't a lot of like, I'm going to be a demon from the fucking galaxy of the, you know. Every other trick or treater was Evil Knievel. Yeah, you're Evil Knievel. Oh, look, you're Batman. Oh, look, you're whatever the fuck. So after he graduated, he was, you know, he's still doing other drugs. He's floating. He goes to the University of Illinois for a while.

He gets asked to the high school prom from his high school when he's a freshman in college. A girl he knew in high school asked him to the prom. He agreed to go, but then the day of the prom came and he just sent a friend in his place. He didn't go. He just was like, yo, dude. Hey, yo.

What is that? You want to go to the prom tonight? No, no, this chick is going. Not with me. If if you show up at her house she'll have a dress on she's waiting to go so just pick up a corsage and head on over wow that's a weird thing to do yeah uh he's standing her up he's like sending somebody in his stead imagine that just showed up hi i'm here to take you to the prom what he? He couldn't make it. I don't know you. Don't worry.

I guess it's, I mean, it's, I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's extra weird and bad or actually like, well, I don't want to stand her up so she has to go alone. So I'll just send some guy and she can just go with him. So she's not stood up, I guess. Did he not want to go or did he have other shit to do? Did something come up? I mean, who knows? He was, you know, this guy, Did he not want to go or did he have other shit to do? Did something come up? I mean, who knows? He was, you know, this guy maybe had to shave his head into some weird thing.

We have no idea what he was doing that night. He's busy at the West Army store. He's working on his costume. Yeah, he's doing that. He enlists as a Marine at that moment. And not right after the prom, but, you know, around that time he enlists as a Marine, but he's kicked out in two weeks. Two weeks? Two weeks

because he failed to disclose his multiple drug addictions. So they found out that he was a disaster and he was on a bunch of shit. So they booted him out. That's less time than Riddick Bowe spent in the Marines. That's pretty impressive. In his 40s. Yeah, when he's heavyweight champion with like 8080 million in the bank.

This is just some kid like, well, that didn't work out, which is. Two weeks. Two weeks. I didn't know that they were that. I guess they're not invested so hard in two weeks. So they're like, yeah, fuck this kid. Get out of here. And back then, too, I don't know if now they would work with you a little more.

Probably not the Marines. No, probably not. I don't know if now they would work with you a little more. Probably not the Marines. No, probably not. I don't know if now they'd work with you a little more. But back then, it was, yeah, he's on, quote, on drugs. So we can't have him here around guns and explosives and shit. We can't do that. We have way too many vicious slogans like kill them all and let God sort them out. You can't send a guy

fueled up on coke so you can't have a guy be like you have a guy like kill them all let god sort them out like calm down gee maybe in war that would be helpful but not not in the basic, I don't think. Not when a guy's telling you to climb that wall. Yeah. I want 40 push-ups, and he's like, I don't want to kill him if God's sorted out. Not when we're chatting, I don't know, but I've been told. I'm snorting everything.

I just snorted some NutraSweet. I don't care. I don't know, but I've been told. I just snorted some NutraSweet. I don't care. I don't know. I just want coke. Cocaine feels real good in my nose. You're out of here. Snort on. Snort off.

That's beautiful. His head's already shaved, for Christ's sake. He's ready to go. Yeah. They sat him in the barber chair and they went, perfect, get out of here. He's done. Big hike. So he comes back home and does the opposite of that.

He comes back home and joins a band or tries out for a band or ends up in a band here. The name of the band, I love a good band name for some shit band that never went anywhere some garage band and this one does not disappoint terrific

Bourbon and Clorox is the name of the band I mean it's sort of Guns and Roses yeah you know Peaches and Herb Bourbon and Clorox

perhaps Axl Rose heard of this and was like you guys are not going to believe this. I think we can do something like this. Clorox sounds bad. My last name here that I've chosen to use is Rose. So, I mean, what do you say?

Bourbon. It should have been called Guns and Bourbon. That would have been a better name. So, Bourbon and Clorox here. That's awesome. He would have his head shaved into a mohawk most of the time, and he liked to wear a black beret for some reason. On top of the mohawk? Yeah, I mean.

That's way up there. I don't know what he's doing, man. He would make what his friends would call outrageous statements all the time. He would also write a lot of the song lyrics. He's like a singer. He also plays the drums the drums he's gonna try to play guitar later he doesn't know what he's doing he's a nightmare yeah one of the they said that uh one of the lyrics that his friend remembers clearly was about a quote hollow man gun in hand who followed him everywhere and every day that's one of his lyrics that he thought was like all right

that sounds kind of like metal cool you know so he's saying there's like a demon following him yeah a hollow man yeah he's following him with a gun even which if you're a demon i mean that's so that's overkill you don't need the gun probably what kind of powers are you lacking that you need a gun yeah that's right away that you're sure if you're a like a it's a weak-ass demon if you're a paranormal yeah figure i feel like in a gun i feel like you should wield powers above our yeah you should be able to lift me without any you know without touching me and slam me into the ground do some vexing shit you know what i mean yeah do some vexing shit you don't need bullets yeah that tells me that if i have a gun, I can kick your ass.

Probably. If I see that, if I see an otherworldly creature and he's got a gun, that's a sign of weakness. I'm like, oh, you must be. Fuck yeah. Yeah. It's a sign of weakness. You're afraid. You're afraid.

Well, you're going to lose this fight, sir. Your powers are less than a gun. We know that. Right. Otherwise, you wouldn't have a gun. So his friend said, quote, he was an extreme extreme guy but not a psycho killer or anything that's one of his band members so like he was just a wild guy which in a band that's kind of what you want sometimes there's a lot of crazy fucks that are famous and in bands jesus so he went to four

different colleges in illinois is that right yeah four different colleges trying to find somewhere to catch on never works out his parents starting to get a little disappointed in him now yeah after everything that he drops or kicks out of yep art doesn't work band doesn't work okay go in the marines well here he is home again he thought he was gonna be gone for a while nope there he is that doesn't work so he goes to four different schools nothing Nothing there happening. I would imagine, too, every time it's, oh, this time it's going to work out, and then it doesn't. And so they're starting to be a little bit disappointed.

He told a psychologist that his parents' love came with strings attached, is what he said. He said with each disappointment, he felt a little more abandoned by his parents. Well, yeah, they felt a little more disappointed in you also because you're a fuck-up so it goes both ways chief each disappointment probably hurt more than the next yeah if you talk to their therapist they'd say that he said that they said fucking you know he disappointed me more and more every time he said it was just a vicious cycle you know know, of that. He moved out of the house one time, his friend said, but it was only for about two months. And even then, his parents were paying his rent and all of his bills.

That is not moving out of the house. That's not really moving out. That's just, I don't know, that's an auxiliary location. That's giving your parents another bill. You've just put your stuff in an auxiliary location, but you're still under their roof, really. Costing them more money. So at this point, he's a punk rockin', shaved and headed, mohawk and beret wearing, weird lyric writing.

Parent siphon. Cocaine sniffin'. Yeah. Parent money fucking siphoning weirdo. Then he decides, no more of this. Yeah? No more of this. Don't grow up.

Hey, you know what? Pull up the bootstraps. Yeah. My body's a temple is what he decides. Yeah. Oh. And rather than abuse it by doing drugs and eating poorly and generally not fulfilling my physical capabilities and what they should be um he says i'm gonna do

something good for my body he kicks the cocaine stops doing coke which is good less blow is better and started becoming a health nut and working out and stuff like that which leads him to obviously becoming a male stripper. Obviously. Everything is to the extreme. Yes! Everything is to the extreme, man. It's all to the extreme. He is Vanilla Ice before Vanilla Ice.

To the extreme is to him. Wow. I mean, from one thing to another he went from like never snorting a line yeah snorting a line grabbing a mic and being like one two fuck you and having people and then he was like you know what i'm gonna shake my crotch in a bachelorette's face i feel like that's better for me i've never been in a gym or in any form of exercise period and been like you know what this could lead me to male stripping you know what people should pay to see this that's your thought as you're looking yeah arrogance yeah look at that he becomes a male stripper okay yeah a friend of his named Kay, I don't know what the hell that name is,

Cheraval, she's the manager of the Landmark Racket and Health Club in Peoria, Illinois, said Cohen would work out with a group of young men who are all male dancers. So all this would be, you know, 2 a.m. the strippers are coming in. Here they are, everybody. The whole male review in our gym. They'd have to put music on. It was choreographed very well, though. Very well.

She said that, quote, they were nice people. They didn't cause any trouble. Oh, what trouble are they going to cause? They've got the best life on the planet. They are so happy. You're never going to fuck with those guys so weird so he ended up meeting back up with his high school friends during around this time including his bandmates and uh the one the simmons guy who he talked from before and simmons said quote he

wasn't the same where before he was quick and witty now he was dull and slow like part of his brain was burned out by the drugs oh so uh yeah also i think he's just dulled into a sense of he's probably had like eight blow jobs in the last 36 hours he's like listen i'm i can't even speak because i got what's the word uh jizz it's all gone i can't think of the word jizz that's the word? Jizz. It's all gone. I can't think of the word jizz. That's the word. Yeah. All gone. So weird. Of course you're going to be a little slow.

It's fascinating how little reaction you have when you are ball dry. Yeah. You're just like, what's that now? I don't care. I don't know, man. I better eat something. That's a chemical imbalance. I literally have zero testosterone.

So it's all over her tonsils. It's on her. I don't know. It's all gone now. I'll get more. Don't worry. Yeah. Give me a little bit to regenerate.

Oh, man. One day he showed up at a mutual friend's house and kind of scared his friends. And they didn't talk to him anymore after that. He had a tape from Bourbon and Clorox. Yeah. He was like, hey, everybody, check this out. Let's listen to some Bourbon and Clorox, which you're like, ugh. Ever have a friend in a band that wants you to listen to it?

And you're like, oh, for fuck's sake. Jesus Christ. It's so bad. Sure. Don't even play it. It's bad. Okay, fine. And his friend said, quote, Charlie played it backwards.

He was totally convinced it was the devil's voice, and he thought that it was the neatest thing in the world. That was the point where we said, this kid has gone too far, and they never saw him again. So they left him alone. Which, I mean, that's not too far, think i mean jesus christ i would think he's covered in glitter all the time that's too far albums too anything you play backward there's been so many songs so many albums it's not a coincidence that something somewhere backwards sounds like words it's not it's just a coincidence it's not it that it's gonna happen it's it happens a lot but people are like see what it said i think it said satan no so weird so 1984 he has a girlfriend okay um it's short it's a short relationship but it's it

burns it burns bright it's a one of those it's a flame out um it's a roman relationship, but it burns bright. It's one of those. It's a flame out. It's a Roman candle of a relationship. He became very depressed after it ended, of course. And at that point is when he started having violent sexual fantasies, and he shaved all the hair off of his body everything and began binge eating huh he'd go get like two buckets of kentucky fried chicken and eat it all at once while he sat there completely clean shaven of his whole body crying probably what a weird scene man that is fascinating that's like that's what ladies do yeah and then well

their whole body and then eat and cry except he's dreaming about cutting a woman's head off and having sex with a neck hole that's the only difference and she's dreaming of fucking his best friend to make it sad yeah and he's like i want to fuck her neck hole and then eating a then eating a fucking chicken leg is a weird yeah a weird thing uh He turned back to drugs again now. It's all falling apart. He said he took between 84 and 86. He took LSD more than 100 times, he said. That's every three days. Too many.

I'm going to tell you right now, as a person who's done acid back in the day, that's too much acid. You can't do that much acid. Not that frequently. You need a cooling off period for acid. You got to heal. Seriously, you much acid. You can't do that much acid. Not that frequently. You need a cooling off period for acid. You got to heal. Seriously, you do acid like you should wait a couple of months, at least a few months, and let it all calm down. Acid fucks with your head.

It's a different thing. He said that during that time, he experienced about 10 to 15 bad trips from what he said. Yeah, I believe that. Which is, again, that's not a good thing psychologically because a bad trip to you is real you think it's happening so it's the same trauma as if something bad happened to you and that's somewhere between 10 and 15 percent of the time that you're taking that's pretty high that's crazy that's too much you you have to have that thing when you do acid where you can got to sit yourself down and go you're on drugs. You did this on purpose.

You paid a guy money. You paid someone money to give you this and then you put it in your mouth. This is what the result of it is, so sit back and enjoy it like a rollercoaster. You have to tell yourself that. You literally bought this. It's like wanting to get off a rollercoaster halfway through. You drove an hour here. You parked

half a mile away you paid for parking your sunburned you're fucking you're sitting in somebody else's sweat this is what you're here for you paid 25 for that drink that's in your stomach that's right so uh man he said during this time that he told a psychologist that he was, quote, hanging by a thread psychologically. Now, the one good thing is his parents, his dad's a clinical psychologist, so they can recognize things and get him help. And he's in regular therapy, which is good. But, you know, the problem is he he turns back to drugs when drugs are involved. All bets are off.

You've got to be clean to do this. Yeah, and he was concentrating his anger and just always thinking about that. In 1986, I don't know what the fuck he was doing here, but he's arrested for shoplifting in Phoenix. Really? Somehow he ends up in Phoenix and gets busted for shoplifting. Listen, sometimes this heat. It'll drive you nuts. It'll make you forget things. It'll make you'll drive you nuts. It'll make you forget things. It'll make you forget where you are.

It'll make you forget that currency exists. I think I paid for it. I don't know. I see... Phoenix is a different place, man. It is. It's really extreme. It'll make you behave different.

It's extreme shit, man. So he's arrested then. That's his only arrest. So he doesn't... Somehow during all this craziness, he keeps the police out of it somehow. So he's smart enough to not do things that get him in trouble. Yeah, or just sane enough to not do the really wacky shit that raises red flags. Well, that tells me he has impulse control.

Right. Because that's the thing that people oftentimes can't can't do is they can't stop these impulses and that's why they get arrested for dumb shit before this whereas he seems to know when he can act up and when he can act up and he knows when the right time is for it so this feels manipulative recognizing right from wrong is imperative in that situation and he's clearly seeing it like his seizures i think this is a you know i think he's got a manipulative streak going on until this until the sun comes out at about 115 degrees then you forget everything then you forget everything and just start walking out of stores with shit in your hand you're like huh what now say again i'm just trying to find another

air conditioner i want out of here i thought this was a bowling alley. What's going on? I don't know what's happening. What is going on? There's water right there. Oh, my God. No, that's not water. So April of 1988, Martin and Ethel Cohen move to Delaware. Okay. And Charlie comes with him.

What's he going to do? Stay behind on his own? And they don't want to leave him on his own because he's a mess. So they're like, shit. So this is April 88, about in that time, late, early 88 through April, sometime in there. So they move here because Martin is appointed the director of the Delaware State Hospital. Wow. Which is the largest mental facility they have in the state there. Yeah, he's the director.

He's the director. Yeah, have in the state there. Yeah, he's the director. He's the director. Yeah, the head of the hospital. He was trained, obviously, to treat people with serious mental illnesses. He's a clinical psychologist. He's in charge of this place. It's a 460-bed Delaware mental health facility south of Wilmington. Oh, my.

That's a big one, 460 beds. It sounds big. Nowadays, it's called the Delaware Psychiatric Center. It's the only state-operated psychiatric facility for the care and treatment of mentally ill adults in the state. So, yeah. He started there. He told the hospital staff that he was going to stay until retirement, and he was in it for the long haul. Apparently, they had a lot of problems with the hospital. There was a lot of turnovers.

They've had like four directors in the last three years because of bad management. So everybody said he, though, was, they quote, enthusiastic, kind, and caring, and a fine director. So they were all very excited to have him there. Absolutely. He said, his whole staff said he had a real commitment to helping the mentally ill. So he's there. And he said, by the way, Martin, by the way, is kind of a he likes to smoke cigars in his spare time. He likes going to Florida or the islands to get away on vacation here.

Real Tommy Bahama man. I was just going to say, I can see his open neck Hawaiian shirt and a cigar and those sandals old guys wear. Hawaiian scene on the back with a parrot and everything. Oh, the whole deal, man. Just a bottle of rum in the middle of it. Yeah. So they would take long vacations usually a month to six

weeks at a time oh my god can you imagine imagine that a month off that's old school rich people shit yeah it is like back in the day in august all the rich people would leave the cities and go out to the country and shit and they would be gone for like a month to six weeks. How the fuck did you free yourself? I know if you read about like 1880s New York City, the Upper East Side and all the rich areas, well, not then because there was no Upper East Side, but the rich areas at the time were gone. Ghosttown in August because they were all on vacation.

And it's interesting. So they still do that. I want to know what that's like. Imagine going, i'd be so bored i don't want to go anywhere for a month i'd be happy to be home for a month but where the fuck am i going for a month welcome to the small town of chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper in this new thriller available exclusively on wondery, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects

connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family.

But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy.

The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I'm going to live out of a suitcase for a month. The islands, James. Now, I'm bored.

I don't even know what those are. Well, there's sand again. I can't deal with that shit. For a month? Oh, my God. If you put me on an island for a month, I would kill a dozen people. But knowing that it's temporary. I'd lose my mind. You know what I mean? I'd lose my fucking mind on an island for a month i would kill a dozen people but knowing that it's temporary you know what i mean i'd lose my fucking mind on an island i can't do that i can't do it i'd lose it

with joy and happiness there's nowhere i really have any desire to go honestly for a month yeah any amount of time any amount of time like people have brought them all the time how come you don't go to italy you should go to italy or something at some point you know you should try to get you know save up money go to italy do all this shit and i think to myself that sounds nice and everything but yeah to actually go through all of the steps to go there and then walk around and fucking try to understand what people are saying and try to be understood and fucking hit my head on everything because everything was built in 17 fucking 48 or some shit so i'm gonna hit my head everybody there's short i'm gonna hit my head on everything trying to find a good bathroom deal with oh this doesn't work for a month i will

murder everybody they'll call me the italian ripper by the end of it i will kill everyone on that fucking entire booth maybe people do this so that so that it's nice to be home maybe maybe i think you have to be brought up in a certain leisure type i've never had leisure there's never been a thing there's never been leisure i wouldn't know what to do with a month in two days i'd be like okay this is crazy right what are we doing here i've never done leisure maybe it's to forget how nice it is to to be where they are because it that that lifestyle must be incredible it's kind of i guess this is for me too shit yeah i haven't had a week off yeah in seven years at least yeah so think about that yeah think about never having a week off

work ever no pto no vacation days nothing just even when i had it i was using it for fucking to do things for my kids take your kids to the doctor's point i've never i've never been able to take i took five days at the most and i was taking my kids to fucking disneyland yeah and that's miserable yeah and that's what i mean it's so stressful to do anything so uh yeah they said the hospital people were very excited. Cohen told a reporter here, the father here, the doctor, he said that his new role was as a catalyst to organize and bring out the talents of his employees. One person said he believes in giving people support and bringing out the best in his people. support and bringing out the best in his people.

And a, a patient's mother said that Cohen showed such compassion and kindness and invited me to call him anytime. He made me feel as if I had a friend and an ally. So everybody likes him at the deal at the hospital there. They all like him. He, he had been for, he had been an administrative public mental health hospitals for 15 years in Illinois.

So that's that's what he was doing. And Cohen says this in the newspaper when he first takes over. The biggest problem we still face is stigma. He says people seem to think of themselves as invulnerable to mental illness when actually I think we're all vulnerable. Quote, everyone has a breaking point. Oh, my God, I love him. That's what he says. Well, he should have.

Yeah. Yes, he's great. He's making a lot of sense. He's very right about the breaking point, though, and he should have had his eyes open for that. So earlier when they moved to Delaware, they have a very nice property. It's a rental property. It's a townhouse in Gateway Townhouses at 532 Beachtree Lane. So if that's where you live, you're going to find out some stuff about your house right now. Watch out for that. That's going to be wild.

So it's in the town we're talking about here, Hocassin. It's tucked off. It says Old Lancaster Pike, tucked off of that road. The way the house works, it's a two-story. There's a bedroom on the first floor, a bedroom on the second floor. And Martin and Ethel occupy the downstairs bedroom, so Ethel doesn't have to go up and down stairs. Yeah, because she's got, yeah. So Charlie takes the upstairs.

That's where he lives. It's a loft. It's like a big loft. It's almost like an apartment up there. It's nice. So that's where he lives and he does his art and he has drums set up and guitars and amps and all that kind of shit. He registers as an art student at the University of Delaware, but he doesn't live in the dorms. He lives home.

It's only about 10 miles away, so he just drives there every day. Is he in his 30s here? No, he's like 23. Okay, all right. Yeah, 23, 24. He has had a full life already. Of all sorts of shit that cost his parents

tons and tons of money. Tons of money. Tons and tons of money. And their basement had shit everywhere, band equipment, all sorts of stuff here um oh by the way before we go on i just have to tell everybody one thing because i've i've gotten like 10 messages about this for people who don't listen to crime and sports which you should listen to crime and sports we've kept it going and fuck is it good man we have it's in a renaissance period

but i mentioned something they've seen people mention, and they don't know what the hell I'm talking about. That is the lizard candy incident. Oh. Very quickly. Speaking of mental health. That's what I mean. This is some weird mental health shit here. Two minutes this will take. Not even.

I was asleep taking a nap in an evening. I had worked, and I was taking a nap, and I had a dream where I had this candy, and it's like assorted candies you buy little squares and I took a bite but it wasn't like candy it was like thick like fudge kind of but not fudge it was like a brownie bite yeah but like fudge right the big squishy ones so I took now it's like firm though like a brownie bite so I took it I take a bite of it and lizards came out okay little lizards little geckos this kind of yeah the little like fan headed dinosaur looking ones all of them they came out the jurassic park lizards yeah and i was like trying

to pick lizards out of my mouth i was like oh do i did i eat a lizard what's going on and so there's lizards running around so while i was sleeping without realizing it i have i had no memory of doing this uh but i i texted sarah sleep, quote, lizard candy, be careful. Be careful. No punctuation, and lizard and candy were capitalized. So when I woke up, she's like, what the fuck is lizard candy? Be careful. Yeah, you went back to sleep, and I've been all around the house.

Looking for lizards and candy. I don't know what's happening. That's very ominous. Be careful. The candy that looks like lizards makes you really fucking crazy. That'll really fuck you up, man. Don't eat that one. Lizard candy.

Be careful, everybody. You never know. I better tell her. She's like, what is lizard candy? Candy for lizards? Candy made out of liz her she's like what is lizard candy candy for lizards candy made out of lizards like what is that i'm like no no it's candy that you bite then lizards come out obviously duh obviously be careful it's yeah it's imminent you never know when you bite into candy watch out so charlie did not want to move to delaware though yeah in this back to the story

didn't want to move to delaware yeah in a letter to his friend he wrote that he didn't want to move to delaware he said my father and especially my mother would need my help in delaware and so sacrificing my own happiness for them i moved to delaware like he's got a lot of other shit going on charlie you need them now i was gonna drop out of like three more colleges and join another terrible band. And I don't know what happened. One day they're going to need me, but you need them now. Big time. The summer of 88, he worked at a gas station in town in Delaware, but only for like a week or two.

It lasted about as long as the Marines probably figured him out. He was probably sniffing, just huffing gas. He gets in touch with, when he first gets there, a local production company seeking to market tapes of bourbon and Clorox. Yeah. He's got tapes and he's like, maybe I can make something happen here. Can you sell this? Yeah. He said that he had a tape that was recorded when they played live at a fraternity party at Knox College in Galesburg.

Because that's what everybody wants, your live version. At a frat party, too. Right. Not like at Madison Square Garden or something where the fans are singing back to you and stuff. No, a frat party. And even those guys don't sell that until it's like their 12th album. Then it's like, ooh, it's rare. Your debut those guys don't sell that until it's like their 12th album that's then it's like oh it's a rare your debut shit they don't want in between songs you don't want to hear

somebody just from the background go stop fingering me like that's not what you want get your finger out of me is not what you want to hear the beers are 11 11 11 for the just for the cup okay he was very proud that the tape was made on Good Friday, 1988. And he is listed as the singer and designer of the band's logo, which is a large bird holding a bottle of bourbon in one talon and obviously a bottle of Clorox in the other. So that's how he does. So once he's in Delaware, though, he starts playing drums and guitar, not at the same time, obviously, with a band that he's trying to put together in Delaware of much younger kids. He's like the Mick Mars of the group where they're like, how old are you? What's going on? Your spine's fucked up.

The fuck? You're already all scoliosis. What's happening, bro? I'm so happy to see him get that an age matters rest finally yeah good for him so uh he talked about wanting to start his own band and he did and the name of this band we get two band names in this episode which is phenomenal vervin clorox and john hinkley's kids not bad yeah john hinkley if you don't know is the guy who shot uh ronald reagan president at the time in 1981 so to impress a girl john hank to was never going to be impressed by that

he would have needed to take a trip to the doctor to impress that girl put it that way that is the greatest thing that's ever happened parking up the wrong tree chief you don't know what we're talking about. He did, if you're very young, he did this to impress Jodie Foster, who couldn't hate penis more. Couldn't despise this guy's dick. More.

He tried to assassinate a president for that. A president to turn him on. Not for that, for her, but for a relationship that was clearly never going to happen. Oh, it's so good. Oh, man, it's amazing. It is one of the funnier things in the world. Imagine being the guy who got to tell him that. Dude, I would have loved to see his fucking face.

Rock, paper, scissors, totally. I get to tell him. No, fuck that. I'm telling him to see his fucking face. Rock, paper, scissors, totally. I get to tell him. No, fuck that. I'm telling him. I heard it first. I'm telling him. I am telling him. Rock, five.

Rock, paper, scissors. Hey, John, come here. Shit. Shit. How does that beat rock? I don't get it. So good. Charlie borrows money from his parents to buy a guitar amps and a microphone

yeah so you can just put together this type of shit and when you have teenagers if you're the guy who can buy all that stuff they'll play with you and they love you oh yeah he practiced all summer playing in his parents home the coens have to put up with that his parents his parents didn't mind really his one of his bandmates said i guess they were just glad to see he was doing something he wanted to do. I mean, they're probably just desperate for him to be successful or at least take care of himself on any time. Do something. Oh, shit. His one friend said he was a real down-to-earth guy.

They said, though, by the end of August, he started being weird. By the end of August, 88. They said, though, by the end of August, he started being weird by the end of August 88. So his whole Illinois transformation that took years, he crams in like a four month period in Delaware. It's just strange. His friend said, quote, He rejected everything. I have a positive outlook and he had adopted it, but he rejected it. Things suddenly didn't seem as positive to him.

Well, he's a loser and they shouldn't seem positive to him he's 20 he's a 24 year old kid with no future and no anything going for him and living in his fucking parents house with no girlfriend and no like well of course he's yeah he's been through a lot he's been through some stuff here so he said that um uh yeah things didn't seem as positive he also said that um here that uh at the end of the summer he was visiting charles cohen at his house and he said charles gave me this weird look he went upstairs and just told me to leave oh he was like you got to go okay sure i guess i'm going now uh which is a strange thing to do. Also, at the University of Delaware, he's taking art classes, and the teachers were, quote, unquote, a little disturbed by his drawings, which I think is their drawings. Very sane people make very weird shit sometimes, so that's fine.

One drawing, and I'll post this on social media as one of the pictures, cause I have it. It was a coat rack and on it are two hangers, which, uh, one hanger as the head of a man and one hanger has the head of a woman just hanging on. Yeah. Uh,

he's given a C for that. Oh, he's given a C and a note on the back from the teacher said, quote, proportion question mark. Then said, uh, proportion, question mark, then said, proportion off, quality of life doesn't say much,

not much attention given to third dimension. So not really judging his, you know, what it is, his weirdness, but more judging his artistic things here, which makes sense. They said a sketchbook that he had had a lot of doodles here with lots of just weird shit, people being shot in the head that he drew. Also had the words, fuck you, with an arrow pointing toward the words, mom and dad.

And then the words, I hate you, up the side. And then death of happiness under that. So I don't know what would make you write that outside of the 11th grade. Yeah, I mean, everything that you have in your 20s is attributed to them. Well, and he's mad at them for that. I think he realizes that, and he's mad at them for that, rather than realizing that this is his own fault. You know what I mean?

Right. that this is his own fault. You know what I mean? So he had to, he said he had angry and frequent fantasies during this time about killing people and death and violence and shit like that. He said that he told the psychologist that he felt the need to commit murder to, quote, get the anger out of his system. Huh. Had to do that.

On Halloween in 1988, he traveled to New York City with the intention of finding a stranger to kill, which in 1988, if you were looking for murder, you just wanted to murder a person, to go to New York City from somewhere else, kill a stranger, and then leave, you're getting away with that. Unless you do it in front of a cop, you're getting away with that. At that point, too, New York City's violent crime rate was like four times what it is now. It was fucking bonkers, you know? Times Square was a nightmare. Still, yeah, it was pre-Disney.

It's a nightmare now. It's fucking Disney bullshit. Before it was like, yeah, keep your kids out of Times Square. Now it's, meh. So he searched through Central Park, and he couldn't find a victim, he said. What? He's also probably had four people stalking him at the time. So he probably got scared.

He said he couldn't find a victim. He probably goes, I got a little terrified is what happened. He had a tail. Yeah. Jesus. So he returned back to Delaware unfulfilled. So he's very sad about there. So that's Halloween night. By November 12th, hefulfilled. So he's very sad about there. So that's Halloween night.

By November 12th, he's bubbling. He's boiling. Wow. And November 12th, I'll let him narrate this, 1988. Oh, boy. He's at home, and he says this, quote, they were both awake, meaning his parents. It was night, but I'm not sure what time.

Eight or nine, maybe. My father was watching TV downstairs. My mother was in the kitchen. I called my father upstairs to my room. I told him, I want to show you my latest piece of artwork. Oh, boy. That's how I lured him up to my room with the intent of killing him. That's what he says.

He said, quote, I had the dumbbell in my hand, a 10 pound dumbbell. And while he was telling this to, he was like curling his arm, like showing you a dumbbell. He said it was solid and hard. Um, he said that Martin,

his dad walked into the room to look at his art. And he said, quote, so then when I, by the way, the kid's 24 years old, this, this man is 24 years old and he calls his father who's been at work all fucking day and says, hey, come look at my artwork. And his dad comes.

Think about that. His dad doesn't go, Jesus, you're 25. Get a fucking job. I don't care about your pictures that you're drawing. That's what my father would have said. I'm not looking at your picture. I'm have been right just mental health facility in delaware and i just got home give me a second i you know the shit i've been dealing with all day literal shit i saw somebody's shit they wrote their name with it on the wall it better be

better of a drawing than that yes because i gotta say his shading was pretty remarkable he did it with shit and blood he got orange out of that what'd you do what'd you do it was like the sasha sasha baron cohen fucking sketch or the guy remember that one where he's got no you didn't see that on his new show where he's got one of his characters is this artist who is in prison and made makes art out of only things that come out of his body so he sits down with these like this hoity-toity art lady and he's like i made this from me own shit and he's like you know and the lady's like oh wow yeah no it's remarkable he's like you won't smell it and she's like um and he says i made it with uh this one i painted it with the pubes of people I respect,

and he had like, I have artists who I respect cut their pubes, and I put that on the brush, and I make a pube brush, and he goes, would it be out of line to ask you? And she's like, absolutely not, and this lady went in the fucking bathroom, cut off some pubes, and gave them to this man. He's like, wow. She wants to participate. She wants to participate.

She wants to participate. Oh, goddammit. Would you do it? I would do it. Sure, why not? Whatever, dude. By the way, I have to say this. That reminds me of the show we were watching with Sarah there.

I'm watching with her the First Dates, I think it's called. Some English show where they fucking have first dates, and you're just a voyeur on the whole thing. And there was these two girls on a date and they're talking about piercings and going back and forth. And you have tattoos, I have tattoos. And they're heavy English accents. You have tattoos, I have tattoos. And they're going back and forth. Tattoos.

And he's like, the one girl's like, piercings? Yeah, I have piercings. And what do you have pierced? And she goes, you know me uh i have you know my ears and my nipples and uh and vagina and the other girl goes your your vagina wow like like your clit yeah and then the other girl goes she looks at her right in the eye and makes a little like an upside down u yeah makes a little arch with her finger and goes me hood the way she says it is the greatest thing in the world me hood

and draws it if she didn't draw it that would have been the best and me hood she got like real cockney with it me hood she wasn't talking like that before. Fuck, that's funny. So anyway, he said that he had the dumbbell.

It's in his hand. Just trying to give some levity here. And it was heavy, solid, and hard. So his father's looking at his artwork. And he says, so then when I had him looking, he had his back to me. I struck him repeatedly oh god he said the the first blow was to the back of the head and caused him to fall to his knees and he said i didn't knock him out but he went down and then he said quote i repeatedly hit him as he

tried to stop me and i kept hitting him bludgeoning him until it was until he was unconscious okay then he grabbed a folding knife with a four inch blade yeah uh here he called the knife i don't know if it's the name of it um oh it's a that's what they're called an uncle henry it says never heard of it never heard of it but it's just a four inch folding knife he um he had placed the knife on a nearby dresser beforehand wow intending to use it yeah he says quote and then i stabbed him because he was still breathing he stabbed him in the neck thigh back stomach chest everywhere cuts on his hands indicated he was still conscious and trying to fight back at the time too um he says cohen will say i don't really remember i know i stabbed him repeatedly until he stopped breathing i stabbed him until

i was sure he was dead like a prison like a prison yeah like a crazy prison attack then they said well what'd you do then and he said well i went out of the room and yelled downstairs, Mom, Mom. Oh, no. Dad fell down. Come up quick. Dad fell down. Come up quick. Come up and look. So here comes his mom with her cane going up the steps, hobbling into her room.

And Charlie would say she made it up the stairs surprisingly quickly before she thought my dad was in trouble um because she thought my dad was in trouble she thought because he had health problems also so she was in a hurry to come and see him she was carrying the cordless telephone she's got the portable phone there i'm ready to call for an ambulance if need be and um charlie says i don't know what i said but as soon as she got to the top of the stairs and her back was turned, I picked the dumbbell up off the top of the banister. And he said that his mother must have sensed what was going to happen because she turned and faced him. Like she turned around. She found some sixth sense or something.

And so she saw it. And he said, quote, she saw it coming. She turned around and I hit her directly. Oh, man. That's fucking cold, man. That's really cold. She's got so many health problems. That's cold.

Right in her face, too, looking at her. Fuck, man. He said she tried to defend herself. She raised up her left arm to try to do it. And he said, but she was too weak, you know, to stop me. And he said, then I just bludgeoned her. I mean, it didn't take as many strikes to kill her because she was, you know, frail. Although she was a big woman, she was frail.

And, yeah. So, he said that we wanted to make sure his mother was dead, obviously. Oh, my God. He said that's why he grabbed the knife again. And he said, I stabbed her, too. Not as much as I had stabbed my father then because she died more quickly. Yeah. So holy shit.

The wounds to her throat are so deep and wide that her head was almost severed from her body. Of course. It was a Nicole Simpson. Yeah. Exact wound. So he looks around. He's like, holy shit, I did this um both his parents are dead he takes a shower get the blood off of him obviously there's a lot of blood fucking i can't imagine

yeah ton of blood he smokes a cigarette and watches out the window to see if the cops are coming um he said that um this is a quote from him i watched out the window to see if the police were coming when they didn't come. Then I ransacked the house to try to find money. Meanwhile, they've been giving him money. Yeah. You've had money. This is the type of guy who would say, I'm going to go travel through Europe and his

parents would pay for it. Like it's ridiculous. Like would have done anything for him. So he rifled through their personal possessions, their bedroom, their drawers. All the drawers are all pulled. It looks like somebody robbed the place. His mother's handbag, his father's wallet he found. So he was looking through there.

He said, any place I thought they might have money saved or hidden and any jewelry, anything valuable I can find. So he loaded this up along with a shitload of tapes, cassette tapes, music. He's got to have his tunes, man. Warrant just came out. You know what I'm saying? She's my cherry pie. It's banging. It's banging shit.

I'm going to get my Skid Row in there. He's also a Sony stereo cassette player. So he has a boom box and some clothes, a guitar, and an amp that he planned to sell. And he jumps into one of the two cars that the family has here. And he drives off into the night to do what, Jimmy? What? Buy Coke. That's what.

Oh, God. Jesus Christ. Now he's going to go on a Coke binge. This is and then? Oh, it gets. His and then is terrible. Wait. His and then is not even close to oh my god to fruition

yet his and then is brutal and nasty and just as vicious as his pre then so he takes off he ended up with about five to seven hundred dollars in cash from the house yeah because that's the thing about successful people they don't have their cash in the fucking house they keep it and then they keep a few bucks in case they got a portfolio they got places where it goes you keep a few bucks in case a tree guy comes over and has to like trim a thing and you you know that's what they do so he drives to newark now yeah newark new jersey yeah to the apartment of a coke dealer he knew it's in new. But the guy didn't have enough Coke for him. Charlie wanted a lot. Charlie said, I showed him the money and said, look, I want a lot.

I'm looking for a lot. So around midnight, they drove to Chester, Pennsylvania, which is about 25 miles away from home in Delaware there. So this is a spot that he knows he can buy drugs. When he gets there, unfortunately, he's held up at gunpoint. That is crazy. Imagine being like, you'd almost want to explain to this person, I've murdered two people tonight. Do you understand? You think you're a bad motherfucker?

I am. I just cut my mother's head off. What are you talking about? To my fucking parents? What do you think I'll do to you? But they robbed him. Again, a gun is pretty powerful for that. So they robbed him.

And so he returned to Delaware with his Newark dealer. They did get some coke, though. They ended up buying some. They had some money and whatever. So he snorted some, freebased a little bit. Got to get that in there, obviously. And then decided to return to Chester again to get more drugs. That's how powerful coke is.

You got robbed at gunpoint and you're like, I'll go back there again tonight. I'll give it a shot. I'll give it a shot. Another hour. What are the odds, right? Can't happen twice. He's gone by now. So a second drug dealer that he met there, not the one who robbed him, I'll give it a shot. I'll give it a shot. Another hour. What are the odds, right? Can't happen twice. He's gone by now. Yeah.

So a second drug dealer that he met there, not the one who robbed him, got him more coke. And then he returned home with this guy, this drug dealer who gave him more coke. He's in his car. He parks it behind the post office at the time. And he said, quote, I said, wait here. I'm going to get some merchandise. If you help me sell it, I'll give you half. And I promised him a VCR and a TV.

So Charlie goes back into his family's house, and he goes through the screen door in the back, and he snorts a bunch of Coke off the kitchen table while his parents are dead upstairs. He also decided he asked the dealer to help him sell one of the family cars instead of the TV and VCR. He said, quote, I decided that I could trust this guy to sell the Nissan for me and get big money off of so that I could go on the lam and run away from the scene of the crime. Jesus Christ. Terrible plan. He's going to sell a Stanza and he's going to be fine? Yeah. Here's my Seltra.

What can you get me? So a Coke dealer. He said he went into the house. He was nervous, but the way he puts it, quote, but cocaine is a way of relieving tension. So I did more cocaine and tried to get myself numb to the fact of, you know, of what I had done and tried to get more things. Dude, when the director doesn't show up, there's going to be questions. There's going to be. Where is he?

Yeah, we're going to need to. He's probably got papers to sign, things to do. Yeah, he's got stuff to do. So he went upstairs and looked at the bodies. He said, I just looked at what I'd done quickly. Just wanted to give it a once over. Then he got into the family Nissan, drove it back to the drug dealer at the post office who was still there with the other family car, which was an 83 Ford LTD that Charlie usually drove.

So he told the dealer to drive the nissan while he followed in the lt in the ltd but the dealer ended up leaving him at a light and drove away fast and stole the car from him who can you trust you can't trust anybody in this world murderers and thieves and jesus christ i'm having a hell of a night. You can't trust your drug dealer. So he sat in the LTD and realized he didn't have his parents' credit cards or ATM cards. They were in the stanza. No, I think they were in the house still. He said, I wasn't that smart.

I didn't think along those lines. The more main factor for me was just to kill them. I wanted to kill them, you know. I wasn't really thinking about anything beyond that. Clearly, that's a big part of it. The dismount is, as we said, as we said many times, the discount, the dismount, discount, the dismount is the issue. Yeah.

So the next morning, they, according to someone at his job, quote, Dr. Cohen is here every day at 630 in the morning. He's an extremely reliable person. So his staff was concerned when he was not at work on Monday. Yeah. At 645, we started sweating. Yeah, exactly. So the hospital officials received a call from Cohen's sister who was in New York.

And she was wondering if he was at work because she was worried that she usually spoke to her brother by telephone every Sunday night and didn't hear from him. Oh, shit. So she hadn't been able to reach him at all. So two hospital staff members went to the Cohen home late Monday afternoon. They called the real estate agent who rented them the townhouse to let them into the locked house with the keys she had. And that's when they found the bodies upstairs. These poor people, Jesus Christ. Oh, man.

I'm just the HR lady. Fuck. This is rough. I don't want to see this. God damn. So the cops show up. No signs of forced entry into the house, which would have been burglary,

but there's a lot of shit missing. So no forced entry, but a bunch of shit missing is a bit of a red flag so the door was locked when workers opened it they said the police said they don't know at the time if anything was taken from the house or if it was burglarized because they don't know what should have been there and what's gone they have no idea all right uh they the leading investigator says a lot depends on what charles cohen has to say they want to talk to charlie a lot they said the family's two cars were gone and charlie was missing so at the time that's weird they said we don't know if he's a victim or a suspect because the fact that both cars are missing makes us worry that maybe he was multiple people kidnapped or multiple people came.

Charlie can't drive two cars away. That's what they're thinking about. That's difficult. So they're like, this is really crazy. And Charlie doesn't show up for his classes at the University of Delaware either. They go there. He doesn't show up. But physical evidence that they start to find around the house starts to add up to, we need to talk to Charlie.

This is, this is bad autopsies. Okay. This is, this is pretty bad. Um, Martin, so buckle up for this one, everybody. If you're, if you're squeamish, fast forward a couple minutes here. Martin had four gaping wounds on the back of his head. The coroner estimated they'd been made by at least six blows from a blunt instrument, and they were consistent in size and shape with the edges of barbells.

So, fuck, dude, broke his skull. The blows had caused brain damage, brain hemorrhaging, and numerous skull fractures. Heavy blows. Fuck, it's a 10-pound thing. That's brutal. The coroner found a deep, hook-shaped cut on Cohen's neck, which had severed a major artery, and large independent lacerations on the bridge of his

nose and on his right temple. He had small cuts on his forehead, nose, and one of his eyebrows. There was eight stab wounds on his back, as well as two which had entered his lungs. Smashed his fucking head with this thing, and then stabbed the shit out of him.

Stabbed him really, really badly. He had several cuts on the fingers of both hands, which meant that it was a struggle while he was trying to defend himself, defensive wounds. The murderer hadn't simply knocked him out and quickly stabbed him. They said there'd been a struggle and Martin Cohen died fighting, they said. The cause of death was listed as massive internal and external bleeding. So they said the two gashes on the back of Ethel Cohen's head were similar to those on the back of Martin's head with similar skull fractures, brain damage and brain hemorrhaging.

There was a six inch long, two inch deep gaping wound on the front of her neck just above her Adam's apple. It severed her trache above her Adam's apple. Oh my. It severed her trachea and right jugular. And they said the murderer made at least three separate knife strokes inflicting the wound. This wasn't one thing. He was hacking away trying to get his mother's head off for Christ's sake. Wow.

The coroner concluded the severing of the right carotid artery had caused the death of Ethel, obviously. So they said that the attacker knew where to cut the main arteries on both victims. No alcohol was found in their bloodstream or liver, either one of them. So, wow, let's just say that. The Newcastle police set up around-the-clock surveillance on the townhouse. They want him to show up, obviously. They have plainclothes officers stationed in unmarked cars all over the place in town, too, just looking for him. They can't find him.

They noticed several detectives went through the house and noticed that there wasn't much clothing in Charlie's bedroom. Oh. detectives went through the house and noticed that there wasn't much clothing in charlie's bedroom oh so the bureau his dresser only had two pairs of underwear and no socks and that remained um so i mean they're like well that's weird we left two pairs yeah he just grabbed a bunch they also found three drawings on the coffee table that was charles cohen in charles cohen's bedroom all three drawings showed a portable sony cassette stereo on the table but there was no stereo on the coffee table that was in Charles Cohen's bedroom. All three drawings showed a portable Sony cassette stereo on the table, but there was no stereo on the table. So he drew the table in front of him with the box.

And it's gone. And it's gone. So like, well, that's probably missing, we assume. That is crazy. Yeah. They also found several more pieces of artwork, including a watercolor and pencil drawings of several bottles, a small fishbowl, and a pair of eyes. That's weird.

Titled Eyes Without a Face, like the fucking 80s song. He found a collage of all sorts of shit. All of this creepy shit they're finding now. Charlie does not attend his parents' funeral in Queens. A bunch of people from his job attended it. It's a big funeral. They end up finding the car a couple days later. The Nissan, not the LTD.

They find it, and this is very strange, they find it near Chester, Pennsylvania. Oh. Yeah, where you get Coke. Detectives for the life of them cannot explain how it got to Pennsylvania, where it was found there, because they believe that Charlie is driving the other car, a black 83 Ford LTD, and they haven't found him. So, like, what the fuck is going on here? This is, how do you drive two cars? Did he drag this

here what is that yeah they tow it so less than two weeks after the murders they still can't find him oh 10 12 days um it's thanksgiving weekend and by then they can't find him because he's in los angeles he got to la charlie's hanging out on skid row really yep skid row la downtown that's where he is by thanksgiving he got all the way over there he almost got arrested before that he was his black ltd which now has stolen california license plates on it because he just switched them out which he knew that they'd be looking for the other ones uh It got towed because it was on a Christmas parade route. He wouldn't know that. Nope, not at all.

So he tricked a parking attendant at the impound lot into letting him get into his car to get medication, he said, or something important. He just took off. He just drove away after trying to run the parking lot attendant over the guy had to dive out fucking dive out of the way to get away from him that's awesome he peeled off so this is quite the adventure he's having right now this is wild so he's clearly very wanted like extremely wanted uh after a while he ends up on america's most wanted is that right oh yeah

he's on the run he's he brutally murdered his parents he's capable of anything he's got walsh talking about him oh yeah it's the whole country's talking about him so they're you know talking about bourbon and clorox on there and everything like john hinkley's kids it's fucking crazy so um and time goes by yeah weeks go by. He's on America's Most Wanted three different times. Wow. Three different times they put him on because they still can't find him. 24 years old, white male, 5'10", 160 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes, thought to maybe be in the Sacramento area is what they think. Yeah.

Yeah. They said that according to the show that Cohen frequents parks and soup kitchens, sleeps in alleys and frequents other places where the homeless congregate. You know, a real life. The real just fucking the good life. Why would to murder and have to live? Why would you trade your life for this? I wouldn't care. I get when you're like, I'm going to kill my husband and get the insurance and live a whole different life. This is terrible. This is not a good thing to do. I wouldn't give a fuck if my mother walked in my room and called me a loser every day.

Who cares? If she's still willing to pay for everything. At 24? Great. You're right, Ma. Holy shit. Good night. Bye, Ma.

Here, I need more fucking watercolors. Make the meatloaf. Make me money. Give me more money. So, yeah, he likes to hang out in places where the homeless congregate, they say. Oh, my God. He said he may be driving a four-door LTD with Delaware license plate 340157 or Illinois plate MC3599, which now he's got a California plate we know about.

But they said before that it used to have a stolen plate of this plate. They have a secret witness program offering a $2,500 reward for information leading to the arrest, which doesn't seem like a lot. Seems fucking cheap as shit. Less than what the LTD is worth, probably. For a double murderer yeah brutal double murder that's that's less than what that nissan's worth no shit so they go where where could he be um they said he must be they believe that as a he's hanging out in like homeless

encampments and shit and they're like like, he must, they, this is their conclusion. He must sometimes have sexual relationships with women and probably rob gay men who are afraid or embarrassed to report the crimes. Cause that's like, he's a hustler. He's like, he's like Kai. You know what I mean? Like he's,

that's, he's hustling on the street. So he, these drifters, they hustle. So you got to do. So he drifted around California, crisscrossed the country, by the way, blending in with homeless and transients.

It's familiar again. So by February 1989. Oh, my God. Still on the run. Months later. Three fucking months. He has been staying at the Salvation Army Men's Shelter in Sacramento there. He worked at a produce warehouse at one point and used the fake name Michael Richards,

which well before Seinfeld. Well, actually, it's right when Seinfeld debuted that year, but he didn't know Kramer was a good character yet, which is funny as hell. Michael Richards. Michael Richards. You're going to want to drop that one pretty soon. Yeah, he's like, shit, damn it. I'm a murderer, but I'm not that. Michael Richards. You're going to want to drop that one pretty soon. Yeah, he's like, shit, damn it. I'm a murderer, but I'm not that.

I'm not that. Forget it. He said, while staying at the shelter, Charlie, he was a frequent viewer of America's Most Wanted, and he saw a promo for the show about fugitives, and he saw that they're going to feature him. Got to love this show. Now I hate it. Shit, this show's terrible somebody said quote they were going to profile a punk rock drummer who killed his parents and i presumed

oh he said and i presumed that was me so i left and went to san francisco probably not another one of those floating around hold on he went from from sacramento i'm gonna run from here to a fucking sprawling metropolis. We'll go there. Blend in a little more. Much more eyes. You can blend in, though, better. Nobody looks twice at the street people in California.

And San Francisco, you can just blend right in with the group there. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more.

Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener.

Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. So yeah, that's, I assume that was me. That's hilarious. Reminds me of the mob guy that my friend knew who got busted he was on america's most wanted and somebody in a bar that he was in said that guy don't look too tough and he beat the shit out of him and got arrested for it he said how fucking tough do i look now motherfucker that's how dumb people are so while in san francisco he comes across a man named conrad lutz l-u-tZ, who is 51 years old.

He is the vice president of the Wells Fargo bank branch there. Oh. Yes. He's a banking executive. He lives in the city. He's got a nice apartment. He does his well for himself. Now, Charlie liked the city.

He liked it a lot. He befriends Conrad Lutz on the street. Quote, befriends him. Yeah. A banking executive, you know, befriends a homeless drug addict drifter on the street means we agreed to I'd blow him or he'd blow me probably more like it. One of the two. Lutz he lives alone and he would often meet transient people and bring him home with him so he he's he would he bought Cohen a fast-food dinner when he first met him he bought him whatever so Charlie said in so many words he had proposition me he was interested in me sexually and I was very tired and interested in

getting some sleep so he was like fuck so Cohen decided that he would spend a night with Lutz. And he said, quote, and I had planned for the next night to kill him. He was like, I got to catch up on some rest tonight. But I'll kill him the next night. So after dinner, they went to Lutz's apartment where Cohen slept that night. The next day, Lutz left for his job. But he didn't leave a street hustler alone in his apartment obviously

Lutz gave him enough money to buy food and spend time at an all day movie theater he said go see a few movies I'll be back later watch them all here's like 50 bucks go have a day so Cohen did that and while he was doing it he started plotting his moves here he said

quote that night I had promised him that I was going to give him sexual favors, Charlie says. But really, I had the intent of killing him to try to get money and valuables from his apartment so I could continue to evade the law and prosecution. He's very specific about what he's doing. That's his quote, by the way. That's he said he wasn't worried. He said Lutz was smaller than him and just more frail. He said he wasn't worried. He said Lutz was smaller than him and, uh, just more frail. He said he wasn't worried about overpowering him. So the next day, February 24th, he waited across the street from where Lutz worked. Lutz left his job around five.

They took a bus to Castro street and got dinner at a restaurant. They took another bus to Lutz's apartment on the second floor of a two-story building. They get there about seven 30. Cohen eats some ice cream, uh, some ice cream while they talk and watch a movie on TV. No drugs or alcohol, he said that night, just ice cream. So the front apartments, there's 16 units in this apartment building. The front apartments face the street, while the back units had patios that overlooked a ravine.

So this place, it's a small apartment at a tv stereo you know all that sort of thing cohen said he noticed the glass case had cds and records in it and right uh charlie said quote i knew he had wealth and i saw that he had a really nice stereo system compact discs everything like that. Fucking CDs, man. That was hot shit back then. Like, dude's got CDs. He said, I was most concerned with getting quick cash so I could get off the streets before the Sunday night program of America's Most Wanted. That's what he's doing.

He's just trying to hide. So he said, after watching the movie, they headed into the bedroom around 10 p.m. He said Conrad Lutz undressed and got into bed wearing just a towel around his waist. Charlie said he kept his jeans on and socks on, but he couldn't recall if he was wearing a shirt or not. You weren't wearing a shirt, Charlie. Come on.

He said, quote, I told him that I was going to give him a good massage, and then I said I was going to take care of him. Okay. I gave him a massage. He was very relaxed. I told him to turn over and close his eyes and that I had a surprise for him. Oh, God.

Yes. So he said, wait one minute. And his surprise is he got up and grabbed a four and a half inch steel dagger. It's a dagger, not even a folding knife that he had hidden in the living room. He said he got the knife when he lived in the Sacramento shelter for protection. So Lutz is on the bed and Charlie says, quote, when he closed his eyes, I stabbed him in the heart. Oh, my God. He said that Lutz immediately tried to fight and jumped out of the bed.

And Charlie said, quote, I continued to try to stab him. He said they fought out of the bedroom and fought to within five to six feet from the front door. Where this man is just spilling blood. Spilling blood but fighting for his life. There's an alarm on the wall by the door. That's what Lutz is trying to get to because there's an emergency button you can push and people will come. But Cohen, too strong for him. Charlie says, I pushed him back and continued stabbing him.

When he finally body went limp, he said that's when he knew he was gone. So Charlie said he died soon after that. He dropped the knife on the floor next to Lutz's body. There's blood fucking everywhere. Yeah. So he doesn't bother to try to clean up the scene. What's the point? He just takes a shower, though, to get the blood off of him.

He left his pants that had Lutz's blood all over them. He just left them on the floor. And he changed into an extra pair that he had and began you know going through looking for valuables ransacking the joint he got a bunch of shit uh he's collecting things he's got a big sack and he's throwing got a pillowcase stuffing it with cds and shit that he can sell and they're all of a sudden san francisco police department open up san francisco, open up. Oh, no. San Francisco Police, open up. Neighbors heard a struggle and called the cops. Yeah.

Because this is a nice building. This isn't like some trash building where people are ODing in the hallways and shit. It's like a nice building. This is what executives say. Absolutely. Cohen said, quote, they knocked on the door and said, we have a report from your neighbor. Open up. This is the police.

Oh, shit. and said, we have a report from your neighbor. Open up. This is the police. Oh, shit. And Charlie said, quote, I just sat there in the living room as the police were knocking on the door. I was trembling. I fucking bet you were.

I bet, yeah. He said he stayed silent and eventually they left. What? Nobody home. Yeah, I guess you can't do anything. What are they going to do? Yeah, they don't have any evidence. There's no smell or anything they can go on on so they never came back he said so they just left so for the

next two or three hours he just started packing duffel bags with shit uh compact discs records stuff that were easily you know easily offloadable he got about 15 in cash out of the whole deal. Jesus Christ. He also grabbed Lutz's cufflinks, his gold ring, and removed an expensive watch. How the fuck do you say that? It's some fancy 80s brand. I don't know expensive shit. I don't know what it is. P-I-G-U-E-T. I've heard it said before, but I don't remember.

Yeah, it's Peugeot. I think it's Peugeot, something like that. So he takes all of that off him uh charlie said there was a lot of blood encrusted in it and i kept the watch for a while what the fuck man he said he later sold it for about 10 bucks which is way undervalued yeah he said i believe it was worth a lot of money but i didn't get much for it on the street it's not worth a lot of money because if you're a crackhead who needs money they're like well i'll give you this what are you gonna do so um he didn't bother up cleaning the scene charlie said quote it was a very gory

scene i believe it coming from him in his heart a lot um they later found by the way the police found charlie's fingerprints on items all over the apartment as well as uh as well as on a used condom oh so he left out the part where they had some sexual contact a condom was used and he touched it so he touched right there's some yeah he left a lot out of there so cohen calls a taxi and he leaves okay he goes to downtown san francisco there's an all night burger restaurant and he drinks coffee and spends the rest of the night and early morning walking the city streets next day he goes to cal berkeley the college there goes to berkeley and sells most of the all the classical blues and jazz and opera shit that he's got from lutz sells it all because you

there's always record shops and places you can sell shit to near colleges. So he goes back to San Francisco and checks into a hotel for a week under an assumed name. He sold some of Lutz's other belongings around San Francisco, but he kept some of them

like the cufflinks he held onto for a long time. He said, I tried to sell all I could, but I guess some of it was not worth anything. Two days after this, the America's Most Wanted is airs. And he said that he was, quote, becoming a national nationally televised criminal is the way you put it. National nationally televised criminal. Yeah, he didn't he didn't see the whole program because there's no TV in his hotel. It's a nice place.

That's a great hotel. He said, although I did have money at that time, I was kind of, I was too restless to go find a TV. I just kind of walked around. I looked for a TV in different bars, but nobody was playing it. And so I happened to catch a piece of it on just a little black and white television in a deli. I knew it was me definitely then because they were mentioning different bands doa and rem that i liked like he may have be listening to this music he's a fan of this shit it's hilarious that he's like i didn't have find a place to

have it on it's kind of hard as the as the star of this program to be sitting in a bar and going you got the new uh's Most Wanted on? Can you put Fox on for me? America's Most, I would like to, oh boy, this is uncomfortable. So he said that's all that I, he said he heard those bands and he said that he liked, he said, and that's all I needed to hear. It was me. I just kept going. He had Lutz's checks and credit cards as well as a bank card. He said he tried to get it to work all over San Francisco and Oakland,

but he couldn't. He said, I couldn't get it to go for me. And he said later on, they said, why? And he said, well, obviously I didn't have the code. So I couldn't do it. He tried to cash a check

at a check cashing place, but was refused. Yeah. So back on the run run he goes back and forth across the country a few times what he's hitching rides he's jumping freight trains when he can these guys get back and forth i'm telling you man this is very familiar man very familiar uh he if you look there's the bonus episode we did on k, the hatchet-wielding hitchhiker, and it's pretty mirrored. But how do you do this as a wanted fucking man?

It's wild. I guess you could grow a beard, have a hat on. I mean, you're anonymous. That's the thing about being homeless. Unless you're arrested, you're fucking anonymous. You really are. For good and for bad, obviously. Sure.

You get left to die and people don't notice you. So he said that police, he lived in New York and in the New England area somewhere in the Northeast. He would steal from people who were afraid to report crimes, you know, people, vulnerable people. He said he had the urge to kill again while he was in Provincetown, Massachusetts, but he suppressed it. He urged to kill again while he was in Provincetown, Massachusetts, but he suppressed it. He went all the way up the Cape? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this guy is going everywhere. That's the tip top of the Cape. Tip, tip, tip. Yep. Holy shit.

How wild is that, dude? Unbelievable. He went to the richest fucking area to the very end of it. This is wild. He was in San Francisco a minute ago. Oh, my God. Yeah. this is wild he was in san francisco a minute ago oh my god um yeah so february of 1990 yeah this is a year and a half later almost unbelievable the second week of february it's a little before mardi gras so cohen heads down to louisiana i really want to see that

he's just living quite the life this guy i've seen everything i want to see fat tuesday dude this is crazy unbelievable he's living like a bundy dommer lifestyle here this is half bundy half dommer easter is a big deal to him he loved that that good friday shit oh yeah going down to my gruff marty gruff that he's got a big fucking ash cross on his forehead he's ready to go it's his favorite time of year he said that that he moved into an efficiency apartment now an efficiency apartment in a shitty area in louisiana meant no electricity that's not efficient that's efficient that's a closet very efficient very efficient so efficient you don't need electricity or anything it's just a That's a closet. Very efficient.

Very efficient. So efficient you don't need electricity or anything. It's just a room. The area was known to be where drifters lived, obviously. People who aren't drifting want electricity usually. Right. You know, things like that. He had a new friend he was living with, a guy named Greg Fitch, who was a 21-year-old, who worked for an organization that fought for the rights of the homeless.

So he kind of preyed on this guy's empathy, except for him. Now, neighbors said that they thought Charlie was, quote, conniving and creating the image of a nice guy so he could fit in. But they all thought he was a phony. He would panhandle for the homeless group, panhandle and give the money to them, and Cohen and Fitch would hang out and go bar hopping around the French Quarter trying to pick up women when they weren't helping the homeless. What the fuck? We're either going to help the homeless or get some trim.

What do you want to do today, huh? Homeless or trim? What do we got going here? I guess let's get some trim today what do you say pal i'm thinking i'm feeling kind of you know antsy what do you think i don't like this at all it's fucking ridiculous so they're picking up chicks i can't believe it this is ridiculous um at one place igor's lounge and game room which is a popular bar for locals on St. Charles Avenue

he took a liking to a bartender there yeah that sounds terrifying her name is Goldie Palama is her name Goldie she said quote I thought he was a psycho

the first time i met him that's the thing about new orleans they can pick you well bartender's a good judge of character yeah i see a ton of people they see how they present themselves and they see how they act like watching them on tv and a bartender in new orleans knows a fucking psycho they know scum when they see it they're're like, most of this is scum, but that guy especially. She said he was one of those people who thought he could connive you with his good looks. Atta girl. She's like, I've been there before, pal.

Been fucked over. Ain't happening. So April 2nd, 1990. Oh my God. This is incredible. It's been a year and a half. Two months now. He gets in a cab with a guy named Abed

El Hakam Khalil. That's the guy's name. He's from Egypt. He's a former Egyptian Special Forces guy who's now a cab driver. Oh, fuck! That's a bad man. It is. It absolutely is. So

he hails the cab at 10.30 a.m. on the edge of the French Quarter. He asked the driver to take him to Metairie. How do we find out that was said? Spell it. M-E-T-A-I-R-I-E. Yep. Metairie. Metairie. Metairie. Metery? Metery?

Metery? Metery, I think, is how someone said the same. I don't fucking remember. It doesn't matter. I don't care. It doesn't matter. The only time it comes up in the show. All this research, people go,

he pronounced it Met-a-tee wrong, or Met-a-ter, whatever the fuck it is. I don't care. I have all the murder details. I know how many lacerations were in dad's back. That's more important. Fuck. Meditary material,

whatever the hell it is. So, um, I'm sure it's mater or some French shit. So they, they pick him up. Like I said, down there.

Um, now he's been Khalil, the cab driver. He's been driving around new Orleans as a cab for about a year. And he said, where the guy wanted to go was a notorious hangout where people get drugs. He's been driving around New Orleans in a cab for about a year and he said where the guy wanted to go was a notorious hangout where people get drugs. He knows. He's done this ride before, I'm sure.

He said he had a feeling that Charlie was on drugs when he picked him up. Khalil said he was hyper. I thought he was doing something. Cohen wanted to go to a museum in Veteran which is a business and commercial district in Metairie or whatever it is. And he said at first they got along good.

Khalil said, quote, he told me something about the Bronx. And Cohen had been hiding in the Bronx for before he came to New Orleans, which you can easily hide in the Bronx. So they said that Khalil, when he first came from Egypt, had lived in New York for a while. And so they discussed New York and stuff that they both figured out and all that. Then the talk turned to drugs with Charlie telling Khalil that he sometimes smoked crack and snorted coke. That's what I do. cocaine or sometimes smoke crack and snorted coke okay that's what i do yeah um he said but as they pulled got closer to their destination this town uh this is khalil quote one minute i am being a new yorker friendly to another new yorker and then suddenly he has a big change

oh boy for no reason he said he just turned angry and he says, quote, he cursed. He insulted me as a man. He called my mother names and called me some names. What the fuck is happening in this episode? This is insane. This whole episode is fucking crazy. You had raised pizza. I had raised pizza. That's awesome.

Your mother's a whore. Your mother is a filthy skank who gets fucking run trains on by camels. Like, that's, what is happening? What did he do? This is bonkers, man. And then he called me some names. So as the cab slowed down, Charlie jumps out and takes off. He's going to blow the fare.

Now Khalil, yeah, Khalil said he's pissed. He's pissed off that he drove out here. He's pissed off he's had to deal with this asshole. And now he's owed $32 for a half-hour ride. And he called my mom a whore. I'm going to get it. He said normally he doesn't chase fair jumpers. He just doesn't.

He said he'll report it and that's that and whatever. But he said he doesn't chase them. He goes, but this fucking guy was calling his mother a skank and him names. Spurge my family. He said, said fuck that so he gets out of the car he had served five years in the egyptian army um and he'd been in an elite corps similar to the the egyptian equivalent to the army's green berets is what he was doing so he's in good shape still and he starts bounding after him yeah he said He said that he found Cohen so offensive that, quote, I wasn't going to let him get away. You know what?

I've had enough of your shit. I'm not going to tolerate it. So he chases him down the back streets. They're running over through people's lawns, backyards. They're jumping fences. It's like a silly action movie chase with some Egyptian guy. Come back, $32. He's like, fuck you.

You're going to pay me. My mother's nicer than you think. This is insanity, man. So, Jesus Christ. As he's running away, Charlie approaches an 80-year- yeah named hilda sonderberg oh god hilda who's in the front yard of her home working on her lawn uh-huh she described cohen coming up as she said he was quote a nice looking fella it is amazing to be handsome by the way that's incredible you can be going a nice looking fella he is crackhead who's escaping with an egyptian

man running behind him while he's screaming your mother's a wh, what a nice looking fella he is. Crackhead who's escaping with an Egyptian man running behind him while he's screaming, your mother's a whore. What a nice looking fella. This milky pale man that's sweating. She thought he was there to read her meter. Yeah, that's how meter readers normally run up. The electric company runs up out of breath, sweat pouring, no clipboard, no any kind of uniform or anything like that. And they usually have an Egyptian man following closely behind saying, I kill you, $32. This is fucking crazy.

I guess he charged him $32. Wow. Holy, he is overcharging there. People get upset about their electricity. So instead he grabs, Charlie grabs Hilda's arm. Yeah. And tries to force her inside of her home. She fell over because she's 80 and can't move that fast.

She fell over in the driveway, cutting her elbow, hurting her shoulder too. Poor Hilda. Her daughter sees Cohen standing over Hilda, came out of the house he thought the daughter thought he was trying to help her up like oh she must have fallen down and this nice man walking this handsome handsome son you know what i'm gonna i'm gonna pop my tits a little and then go out there and see what's going on i'm gonna make sure that you get some cleavage going though because this son of a bitch is helping my mom he could be the one i'm just gonna say he could be the one so she came out of the house cohen then grabbed her and tried to steal her car keys out of her hands holy shit so at that point her son-in-law

this woman's husband right uh ronald raubathen he comes out of the house, sees Charlie try to punch his wife in the face. Oh. While shoving his mother-in-law down into the driveway. This is bonkers. And he thought, wow, that's a real nice man. Wow, look at this good-looking fella. He's here to take the car and change the oil for us. Must be a real disagreement over the amount of electricity we've used.

So he does this, and Cohen then, so this guy comes over. So Cohen then turns and punches Ronald Raubathin in the face too, who broke his glasses. And then he also stomped on Ronald's foot, breaking a toe. He punched him and stomped him. And then Cohen ran off with now this guy, Ronald Raubath, and chasing him also. And an Egyptian guy a quarter block behind him going, you called my mother a whore. And this one's going, you knocked my mother-in-law down and tried to punch my wife. What is that?

This is the craziest scene I've ever seen in my life. It's awesome. So it's at this point, Khalil, who was still had lost him and was looking for him around the neighborhood. Cohen turns a corner and bumps right into Khalil, the angry cab driver who is still looking for the fare. Khalil grabs Cohen in a headlock and grabs him by the hair so he can't get away. Cohen told Khalil that the police were looking for him and asked him for help.

He's like, help me. The cops are looking for me. No, not after what you said about my mom. Khalil goes, okay, hop in. So gets him in the cab. They pull away. The first cop car that comes by, Khalil stops the car, jumps out, waves him down and goes, he's in here.

He's in here. Because the people from the neighborhood had called the cops from the fucking melee that was going on in the front yard. So the cops were everywhere looking for him. Wow. Drug dealers, cab drivers. This is absolute insanity. The cab was following. How crazy is this shit?

Wow. Unbelievable. Khalil said, quote, I fought with him. He was strong, but I won. I took him by the hair and the guy asked me to let him go. That sounds gentle. I took him by the hair. You'd say I took someone by the hand, you know.

I said, now you ask me for a favor? That's what he said. That's the exact quote. Now you ask me for a favor. I said, okay, I'll get you out of here. And I told him to get in the back of the cab and hide then i started driving hoping a cop come along yeah he said if not um khalil was gonna just drive to the police station and park outside and be like what's up bitch so but there was cops everywhere he saw the cops he ran over and i said hey i got the guy hiding in the back of my car yeah so that was that so may 24th 1990 um that's uh when he's arrested obviously um and he is taken into court he's arrested on the second he's finally taken to court

on may 24th after his original arrangement he said his name is j James McDowell. Yeah. And he has no identification, no money, and the only thing he has in his entire possession, he has two shoelaces. That's all he has in his possession. Two shoelaces. Those are an escape route is what those are. Wow. He's taken into custody, held in parish jail for six and a half weeks he

didn't have the 50 250 in bail is why he's held there till his hearing here uh in jail he befriended prisoners with the christian and pentecostal beliefs and started saying he was a christian then okay so may 24th 1990 he enters a courtroom in Louisiana, Jefferson Parish. And according to the court transcript, you know what? I'll just read the court's transcript. Let's just do that. He stands up and says, this is James McDowell, Charlie Cohen, says, with all due respect, your honor, ladies and gentlemen of the court, I'd like to make a confession.

Oh, here. Yeah. So his lawyer, Charlie's lawyer says your honor at this time i would advise a defendant not to make any statements i don't know what he's about to say and then he turns to charlie and says sit down man sit down man the fuck you're fucking this all up bro jesus christ sit down man shit Shit. Be cool. Be cool. He's got no chill out, this guy. He's got no chill.

Yeah, but you guys don't know what I need to say. And what you have me here is bullshit. He ignores him. Charlie says, your honor, I. And his lawyer says, sit. Sit down. No. Then Charlie says, no, sir.

Excuse me. I'd like to make and uh then the lawyer says looks to the judge and he goes he's been advised your honor like it's out of my fucking hands now i tried you saw me try right you know what i did type type lady typing weirdly you've seen you saw that right you got that not disbar me this is his own own shit. So the judge says, all right, Mr. McDowell, I want to tell you that anything you say can be used against you in a criminal prosecution because you're in a courtroom in front of a judge with a lady typing every word you say. There's literally no cops here. Holy shit.

He said, your lawyer has given you good advice, but if you want to make a statement, you can do so now. Yeah. He says, quote, Charlie says, quote, I realize that, sir. I'm guilty of the charge here today, which was like, whatever, robbery or whatever it was. Yeah, yeah. And not the least of which, three

murders. That's what he says. They're like, what the fuck? You skipped a cab fare. That's what you're in court for. You're here on $32 theft, sir. He says, my name, my real name is not James McDowell. My real name is Charles Cohen, and I'm one of America's most wanted criminals. Well, I mean, according to John walsh according to john then he turns around looks to the court and says i make this confession in jesus

his name amen amen so the judge says i'm going to order that a plea of not guilty be entered in behalf of the defendant this is a hearing this isn't like a or not i don't know what you're talking about that is incredible um he said so i grant his attorney 15 days to file special pleadings i set his trial date for september 10th because that's all fine but the judge is only concerned with the cab fare shit because that's what he's that's the on the docket in front of him. The other shit's somebody else's problem for another time. So then he says, Mr. McDowell, are you able to hire a lawyer to represent you? How long have you been in jail? And he says, I've been in jail a little while and whatever.

So this is, wow. Yeah, he says that the murders were just a spur of the moment decision. Or weren't a spur of the moment decision at all. He also says he wasn't under the influence of drugs or alcohol. He was sober and these were intentional, deliberate acts. And I am six weeks sober. You can trust every word I just said.

Yup. He said, quote, there'd been no fight that evening. And you can say that was, that it was, you know, it was premeditated. You know, that's the fact. That's pretty much covers everything. That it um yeah um wow um then they said i just don't understand they don't even know about the third murder i mean that sounds that's what he says too charlie says i just don't understand uh they don't even know about the third murder. I mean, to me, that seems like an important thing that I should tell someone.

Yeah. Probably. Yeah. He then talks about Lutz and said he was very nice. Really, you know, I treated him well. I know. He said I had my own plans for him that night and I carried out those plans. He said the first initial thrust of the blade did not kill him and he fought for his life my intent was to kill him and take his

money because i knew that the broadcast of america's most wanted was scheduled for that sunday he is just putting himself strapping himself in the election every factor they look at in like death penalty shit yeah is all of these factors and he's like no no very premeditated i absolutely did it for money um that was my only plan. It's a textbook. Robbery and personal gain was the motive for all of it. And also I had violence to cover up being caught for my other crimes. So it's all in there. It's everything.

So they said, are there any other crimes you want to tell us about? And he said, no, there are not. No other murders. No other violent crimes. I could never mug anyone. I don't know. For some reason, no other violent crimes i never i could never mug anyone i don't know for some reason it's in my makeup i could never do that you can shove an old lady to the ground then punch a woman and try to take her car keys but you don't mug get the fuck out of here man and murdering lots is still a mugging it's just a very violent one you're still

serious shit same shit yeah you just lure it a minute it's just much sleazier yeah you went to a house yeah you go up to someone on the's just much sleazier yeah you went to his house yeah you go up to someone on the street and you go give me your money motherfucker at least that's a yeah you this is like you tricked him and you know made him be comfortable romanced him you had him in a towel on his bed getting massaged going close your eyes and i got something special for you instead of a blow job you got a fucking dagger in the heart you had a used condom somewhere yeah um so they have to get him back to delaware um they they get him on a plane to do this not a car yeah now he's not allowed on the plane with handcuffs or restraints of any time any kind the airline will not allow that airline

you can't sit you can't bring a fucking restrained person on for safety well it's a safety thing if we start crashing this we can't have cuffed fucking shackled people and they need to be able to move around and do things so he's not allowed so they for security and so he couldn't run away they fit his knees with an orthopedic brace that was like he couldn't like move very well yeah yeah yeah and they put it under his pants so his hands were free, and they were very concerned about that. And they have a stopover, too. They don't even have a fucking direct flight. What?

They have to go from New Orleans to Atlanta. What is this? And then from there. By the way, on the flight, Cohen learned that one of the officers, Downs, was an ordained Baptist minister before becoming a police officer. And Cohen said he trusted Downs and felt the police officer was, quote, on my side. Yeah, sure is. They had a 50 minute layover in Atlanta. Jesus Christ.

They don't have a fucking police plane. Nope. No police plane for this. Police plane plane a little badge on the side then they had to go to philadelphia from atlanta and then drive to delaware from philly which is crazy man um he would later talk about his uh more he was having morbid and sadistic fantasies and a sense that his parents had shattered his life and caused him to kill them he said quote i think i still had gut feelings or guilt feelings feelings of pain for what i had done i still have it i'll always have it he also wrote that his parents had gotten to him and he said it was it was a kill or be killed philosophical situation. They were killing me with rules or money or control.

Well, get a job. And then guess what? You do whatever you want. You're 24 years old. Enjoy. Every feeling you're feeling is your fault. All your fault, chief. So, yeah, they're wondering, will he talk more now?

Because he didn't talk anymore. He burst out in court. And then he said he wasn't going to talk until he got back to delaware okay so they're like okay um what's the deal here um so what they do is they get him in there and um this is fucking crazy he talks about you know they said um um after today basically you go to jail and we never talk to you, is what the detective said. That's what we tried to tell you before. So if you want to talk, today is the only day you can do it.

So he says, uh-huh. And they said, if you, you know, as far as formal interrogation, you said on the thing about your story and all that kind of stuff, that sentence means nothing. That is word, verbal diarrhea. Believe it or not, the whole thing is not like you would picture it. You would think, I'd imagine, if you're on the outside, you would think that they would, you know, jump up and down. And they said, or, you know, announced that now is the formal interrogation, but we don't do that. And he said, yeah. And then Cohen says, yeah, you guys, you guys are being cool, you know.

Guys are like mad chill right now. You guys are being cool you know guys are like mad chill right now totally chill he said i don't even understand you know exactly you know um i mean what i want to do is what i want to from what i understand this is exact quotes by the way this isn't me stammering uh from what i understand they don't even know about the third murder. I mean, that seems important, and I should tell someone. He said it again. He said, I mean, this is just something that, you know, and the cop says, right here. And Cohen says, right here. And the cop says, yeah, right here you can talk about that.

You can talk about anything here. Yeah, you kill anybody, we'll talk about it. So they said, then the cop says, if you want to know, and Cohen interrupts him and says, can I eat this first? And he's basically saying, I'll eat my lunch and then I'll talk to you. Right. Yeah. They got him a bunch of Kentucky fried chicken, like a meal.

Really? And there is video footage you can see, because I watched him eat the entire meal. You can watch him eat it. It took him a half hour to eat the meal. He did it. It was real deliberate. He's taking his mashed potatoes and eating them and grabbing his chicken he's very very deliberate the chicken or the chicken littles remember those that was a you know as a pieces it was like a three piece you know and a biscuit and some mashed potatoes and all that and uh they said

it was at quote agonizing watching him eat through the two-way glass for a half hour they're like skin off and well he just said he wants to tell us about three murders and now what if he gets done and goes never mind i don't feel like it right now we're fucked like fuck we were we were right there you were they're edging him they're he's edging these cops hard so he said uh they said well uh what we do um you know is if you decide you want to talk to us, we'll take a tape recording. That protects us, protects you. And we'll have, you know, you know, fill out on my rights form and all that kind of junk.

And then we can sit down and talk about it. Totally up to you. But like you said, you won't. You thought it would be a good idea to clear the other one up. And he says, yeah. So they talk about it. Then the cop goes, I think that's an outstanding idea. Because like I told you, there's a lot of heartache that goes around.

And Cohen says, I know that's, yeah, that's. And they said, we would like to straighten that out. And Cohen says, yeah, there's a, yeah, there's a lot of things that need to be straightened out. So Cohen says, yeah. And you know, it's, yeah, let me, if you want to get that stuff together, I just want to eat and then I want to confess. They said, we'll give you a couple of minutes, all right? And they said, eat your chicken.

And then the other cop says, all right, I'll fill out the rest of this stuff out here. Essentially, you just want to be alone for a minute. Do you want us to stay or be alone? And Cohen said, yeah, that'd be, I want to be alone. And they said, okay. They leave the room at 2.28 p.m. It shows him eating his lunch. They come back, you know, 15 minutes later.

And Cohen's right as he's finishing eating. And Cohen says, right on time. Like they weren't watching him through a fucking window. We know, bud. And Downs is the one detective. He says, last bite of biscuit. And Cohen says, yep, last bite of biscuit. And Roots, the other detective, he said, well, you got to have a cigarette.

And Cohen said, okay. And then they said, only talk with a cigarette. Okay, talk with a cigarette, they said. So have a cigarette and we'll chat. And Cohen said, probably going to need it. Maybe going to need it. And so then they gave him the Miranda warnings. And he said, probably going to need it. Maybe going to need it. And so then they gave him the Miranda warnings.

And he said, yes, I understand. And they went through all the shit. You want to make a statement? And he said, yeah. Cohen said, can I ask you a question just straight up like? Sure is the answer. Tell us, Paul Abdul. Yeah.

And they said, what's your question? He said, my question is, what would you guys recommend I do in terms of a defender, a lawyer? Would you recommend what would be in my best interest at this point? I just want your personal opinion. Damn it. You a few minutes ago brought up the third murder, okay, which I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm interested in that. Yeah, I bet you would be as a homicide detective. He did not answer the question. I'm just interested in murder stuff, you know? Yeah. He said, the lawyer decision is totally up to you, okay?

Depending on what you're trying to accomplish, you're trying to – and then Cohen says, well, what I want to know, is if I tell you guys this, is it going to be on the news tonight? Will it be it'll be made public or I mean, at least his people will the ball start rolling. So they said, what will happen as far as whatever's happened that you're involved in? We're not. And then the other cop says they don't have access to the story right now. And they said, yeah, one thing we're concerned with and we pride ourselves with is care for victims. In no way are we going to dump

this story in the press. And they said, OK. And then Downs says, whether you want it or not, I mean, I ask, we would want to. We would call whatever, wherever it occurred, whatever happened.

We would want the victim to be contacted. We would want we would want to. We would call whatever, wherever it occurred, whatever happened. We would want the victim to be contacted. We would want to contact the police agency and let them know what's going on and all that sort of thing. So anyway, he says, OK, I appreciate that. And Cohen says, I was thinking I was thinking more of of my own self-interest there for a moment. But I think, you know, I don't think that a lawyer is necessary. I would I understand my rights and be willing to make a statement okay so yeah this is the back and forth they're like i think that he just wanted to be uh reassured that they weren't gonna talk about it in the press meanwhile it doesn't matter to them they just want the information to pass along to the jurisdiction we can't even prosecute you for that.

Somebody else is going to. Shit, man. He says, yeah, the first attempt at a job didn't work. It did not work. This has gotten into the interrogation, he says. And this just made me think, well, for my own survival, you know, I'm definitely going to have to kill someone again. Oh, boy. And he said, why kill someone? Why not just mug mug, some old lady or a, and Cohen says, I don't know. And

they said, just roll somebody. And Cohen says, quote, the, the thought of doing that, you know, entered my mind, but I would say that, you know, I, it just seemed like, I don't know. I rather not, you know, get into the psychological evaluation or anything, you know. I'd just rather stick with the facts. He's like, let's not get into why I'm doing things. Let me just tell you all the horrible shit I've done. So they said, first of all, the three ones we're talking about are your parents and Conrad Lutz. And he said, uh-huh.

And they said, are there any other murders you've committed? And he said, no, they're not. No other murders. No violent crimes. That's when he said no they're not no other murders no violent crimes that's when he said that shit so um yeah so they get into the story and then he tells the description of the murder that i told you that's from his confession blow by blow by blow he gives it it's pretty weird so um it's messed up uh he says yeah it was premeditated on my part to kill conrad lutz and i carried that out with a steel dagger. So it couldn't be any worse.

He's got, they take his artwork, and they take it to a group of professionals at the Hanneman Hospital in Philadelphia to have it analyzed. Come on, man. It's artwork. Quote, they said it showed a person who had very aggressive, violent behavior and that he should have some treatment for that. Or, yeah. So he goes to court for murder, but during the proceeding, he lapses into a catatonic state. Why? He turns into fucking Cameron from Ferris Bueller.

There he is. After two months of medication, though, then he's ready for court. They give him two months of medication. First thing is, was the confession voluntary? And they said, Jesus Christ, we reminded him a hundred times. Right. It was voluntary, and they went through what we just told you. It was pretty voluntary.

So they get a psychiatrist in here. He is Dr. Gerald Cook. He examined several times. told you it was pretty voluntary so they get a psychiatrist in here he is dr gerald cook he examined uh several times he examines uh young charlie here and tells uh talks about this is more than five years of depression heavy drug use and a sense that the love the cohen that cohen received from his parents depended on his adopting their values is what they said. So they said that he grew up as an only child and had envy of friends. And they said he was driven by morbid and sadistic fantasies and a sense that his parents had shattered his life. So he had to kill them. He said he went over.

He he he went over just two weeks before the murders. He went to New York City trying to get murder somebody. And the doctor says he was experiencing such frequent and angry fantasies about killing someone that he felt he had to kill someone to get the anger out. However, he couldn't find someone. So he went home. Um, so they said that he diagnoses this man as having a borderline personality disorder. Yeah. Which that's fine. Yeah. He diagnoses this man as having a borderline personality disorder. Yeah.

Which, that's fine. Yeah. They said, but this is all, it doesn't matter. He's not like, he knows the difference between right and wrong. He's not seeing things. So he is going to plead guilty in Delaware. That's what they're going to accept. He pleads guilty but mentally ill on two counts of first-degree murder, two counts of possessing a weapon during a felony. What this means is I'm guilty, but when we go to sentencing, that mentally ill part comes up and you have to prove that he has to prove that he's mentally ill.

So they try to do that. The state wants the death penalty. Yeah. And he doesn't. The state wants the death penalty. Yeah. And he doesn't. So they go over everything we just went over in terms of his psychiatry and his psychological makeup and all that.

And he's guilty but insane. And he is sentenced to, you, sir, may fuck off two life terms in prison plus 60 years. Okay. Two lives for the murder, 60 years for the other one. Probably 25. Possession of murder. Plus he's got in California as well. Yeah, right.

They could get him for a fucking death penalty there. They're going to fuck him there too. His attorney, by the way, said he was uncomfortable being in a room alone with Cohen. Really? He said during a visit in 1992, he said it was a little bit scary. And remember, I've spent time with a lot of people like this. So I'm a defense attorney.

Yeah. He said after 35 years, I know when I'm hearing madness. Uh-huh. I would say. He said that he believed Cohen had been long masking his mental illness behind a facade. And they said, they asked at one point, do you think he's malingering, faking? And he shook his head and said, quote, Cohen has the opposite problem. He has to malinger sanity.

Wow. He's fucking nuts is what he's saying. He's pretending that he's OK. Super weird, man. While he's in prison, he gets engaged to one of some girl he knew in high school what some girl's like i gotta get a hold of him i saw him on the news and i'm just charlie cohen now he's looking good i gotta say he's looking pretty good must be nice to be handsome gotta have someone to go to the reunion with so uh in 1992 july 1992 cohen asked if he could move prison

uh move prisons to the delaware state hospital where his dad worked what yep because he was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic so he wants to go to the hospital uh they uh said he needed treatment in the hospital and it would be that hospital the request was denied and he was sent to an infirmary in the prison instead. That's what you get. That sounds awful. That is not. That's terrible.

That's not good at all. Not good. No. It's you and a bunch of people with hepatitis. Or people that have just been beaten by the guards. And TB and shit. Yeah. December 1992, he waives any claim to his parents 330 000 estate and he still

faces charges in california and is transferred there temporarily for his trial as well where he is also found guilty we'll talk about that um he does during his appeal he regrets his chat with the police though he said that his confessions that he made were quote impulsive and not thought out well so is murder impulsive and not thought out stupid yeah so in 94 he is he pleads guilty in april 1994 to killing conrad lutz and was sentenced to you sir may fuck off life in prison with no possibility of parole so he's got these over here and if they ever let him out they ever decide to let him out he immediately goes to california to live it out forever so he's never ever ever getting out of prison um and he's had tons of appeals and they're all they're all based

on the voluntariness of his confessions which are extremely voluntary yeah his lawyer told him sit down man and he said no i want to tell everyone that i've murdered people fucking idiot sit down man he made he made a very professional man snap and go sit down man come on yeah i want to know what kind of guy is he is he like a regular guy like kind of those like you know hey I'm a good like on the street kind of lawyer. He's like an upper crust lawyer. Because if he's upper crust, it would have been sit down, man. What's wrong with you? Whereas he was just like the cool guy would have been like, sit down, man.

Chill. Come on, man. They're going to smell the weed on my jacket. I do, too. I so want it to be a lawyer. Try so hard to be professional. But this is this is too much. This is ridiculous.

So November 1994, he is returned back to Delaware after the trial in California, where he's in the Gander Hill Prison in Wilmington. While he's there in November 94, some fellow inmates escape out a window and take off. We've talked about this before, this escape. We know this escape. We've mentioned this guy before. Yes, because he's one of the guys who was there and didn't escape because he knew about the escape plan, knew it was happening, watched them leave, but he didn't follow them.

Really? Tired. Fucking tired. Yep. He's done. Needed to get some sleep. He's tired sometimes. He just needs some chicken and some sleep.

Yep. He's done. Needed to get some sleep. He's tired sometimes. He just needs some chicken and some sleep. He's alternated over the years between prison and the Delaware State Hospital, which he eventually gets transferred back and forth from, which is, like we said, Delaware Psychiatric Center. It's a secured and high fenced-in building, obviously. Now, at one point, this is amazing. This is the best cherry on top of this shit ever.

He's going back and forth from prison near Smyrna to, or Smyrna or whatever, Smyrna, I don't know, Smyrna? Yeah, Smyrna, to the mental health facilities near Newcastle, okay? He wrote and asked the judge to help him stay at the mental hospital. Now, you'd think, wow, he really wants more treatment maybe. Or he just thinks it's cushier there. Neither. What is it? Quote, this is from, this is amazing.

Quote, he had won a ping pong championship. He's a good tennis player. He wrote that he was being sent he wrote his lawyer he's being sent back to prison but he asked the judge to transfer him back to the mental health facility so he could quote re-enter the ping pong tournament i want to defend my championship his lawyer said that the letter was quote a little unusual and uh he responded that he the decision's not mine to make. I don't know what to tell you.

You've got to ask the state for that. So, wow. 2006, he goes before Delaware's Board of Pardons to try to get his sentence commuted. Why would you? What does it matter? What's the point? Yeah, you're just going to California and you're fucked. I guess you could then try to get it there, too. Yeah.

He sits in front of the five member panel and uh which had the sitting lieutenant governor at the time was on the panel as well so there's politics are involved here uh more than just are you worthy um he says religion has changed me changed me he said he wants to be released from prison so he can preach in the Christian ministry. What, from fucking Pelican Bay? What are you talking about? He said, quote, I've changed with the help of Jesus Christ. I've made a full turnaround.

I'm not the same person. I don't really need to be in prison. Oh, really? Haven't you seen Shawshank? That never works. I'm good. No, just let me out. I'm good. Yeah, I learned my lesson.

I'm fine now. I can say with 100% certainty. I'm good. Just let me out. I'm good. I learned my lesson. I'm fine now. I can say with 100% certainty, I'm a reformed man. Yeah. This is wild. He said, you know, what he'd done. They talked about, well, you did this, this, and this. And he said, this is the best fucking response ever. Quote, well, that was then and this is now.

What? What? That's your response to the parole board that was then and this is now he said quote it's like two different people i didn't have any guidance in my life back then you how dare you you had all of it that would make me go i'm getting denied right away i'd shout it to him. Get out. A panel member asked him why he'd been temporarily transferred to the Sussex Correctional Institution from there to the Delaware Psychiatric Center. And he said he was moved because he told a prison counselor a witchcraft spell had been placed on him. Oh, yeah. You're fine. I mean, but he's not saying I had had a bad time he's saying he still stands

behind that statement right he says quote if that sounds crazy it's spoken of in the bible several times it's a very real thing that's out there wow oh boy um he then said quote there are covens there is a thing called witchcraft okie doke so this isn't going well um yeah um so wow um one of the people by the way the deputy attorney general uh robert o'neill who helped prosecute him said quote he gets up to give his side, and his was very simple. He said, quote, Mr. Cohen is exactly where he belongs. He's extremely dangerous. He never deserves to be released into society again. So the pardon board had took less than three minutes

to come to a decision, and they said, fuck no. Are you out of your mind? No, they said, you are out of your mind. You're out of your mind? You just came in here telling us about witchcraft. Are you out of your mind? No, they said you are out of your mind. You're out of your mind. You just came in here telling us about witchcraft. Are you nuts? He's getting spells placed on you.

They said the heinous nature of the offense, the opposition from the state and the multidisciplinary team, the multidisciplinary team and the board of parole and the fact that Mr. Cohen poses an obvious threat to society. In other words, every reason possible is why we're keeping you. You dipshit. They keep asking him for interviews. The Delaware Online and the News Journal have contacted him several times in 2019 and 2020, and he only responded once, and it was on a sheet of paper, 8x5, 11-inch sheet of paper, and it said, quote, I don't want to be interviewed. Sincerely, Charles Cohen. That's all he'd say.

Yeah. There is a book here on this thing. We didn't really use the book other than the autopsy information came out of the book because that was nowhere else. But it's still a decent book. It's called Fallen Son by Mike Walsh is the author there. So you can do that. Walsh, the author, had talked to Charlie three or four times while Charlie was in prison in Wilmington. Oh.

And this author, Walsh, said, quote, at first he thought the idea of a book was pretty cool. Maybe he really did want the press to talk about it. He likes it. He did did but then the penalty hearings were coming up this was back then he said then the penalty hearing took place he did not hold up very well he became paranoid very suspicious of me he decided i was evil oh during my last visit to gander hill he sat there with a strange smile like he knew i was part of the plot to manipulate and deceive him sat there with a grin that is terror it has to be terrifying i can't imagine this guy is scary as fuck and that everybody is an insane goddamn story wow tell me that's not insane mental wild shit right there he got away with it for so his dismount wasn't too bad it

ended up being decent that's the thing it was planned out poorly but it worked yeah because all if you have money you can get underground but still he got across the country multiple times back and forth all it would have taken was one vagrancy charge one something but i mean they picked him up and he used an assumed name. So who knows? You just have to disregard your own dignity and you can get away with things. I wonder if he got arrested under assumed names in different places in the country. And we just don't know about it because there's some James McDowell or, you know, Frank fucking whatever the hell on file somewhere that we have no idea about.

That's wild. Who knows? How many cops had him in their possession and didn't know? As he wandered from Delaware to California? And then back to Provincetown? Who would think that? Oh, my. Why would he be here?

So if you like that story or if you just love the way it's told, either one, because it's pretty weird to like the story. I guess like the way it's told and the way we present it to you you please tell the world about it get on whatever app you're on there is ways to rate on every app just about so get on there give us five stars it helps so much we cannot tell you how much it helps the show uh really helps drive you up the charts also head over to shut up and give me murder.com get your tickets tickets rest of the tour on sale the entire 2023 that's right the new shows that weren't on the schedule that have been added are boston in november and dallas as well we can't wait for those and you get everything get chicago chicago that is the biggest venue we've ever attempted to play and uh they presented it to us and we're like i don't

know that's pretty big and then we said you know what chicago's never let us down literally yeah venue we've ever attempted to play and uh they presented it to us and we're like i don't know that's pretty big and then we said you know what chicago's never let us down literally yeah we literally said on the phone chicago's never let us down we've never had an open seat there fuck it we're gonna have our put our faith in chicago that you can fill it up so do that a lot of cool places to come come see us at a show um they're on sale right now shut up and give me murder.com also april 20th 420 virtual live show want to go to a live show. They're on sale right now. Shop at GiveMeMurder.com. Also, April 20th, 420 virtual live show. Want to go to a live show but we're nowhere that you are? Go to a virtual live show.

It's so much fun. The show is available not only on April 20th, but live and as it's happening, but also seven days after that it's available for purchase. Or you can watch it a bunch of times. Do whatever you want with it. We don't care. Wipe your butt with it. so that's uh april 20th i'm gonna get jimmy super stoned and make him giggle till his head pops it's gonna be amazing till he loses a blood vessel up there throw up tea oh it's gonna be great like earlier today shut up and give me murder.com is where you get those also keep your eyes open here in the next probably six weeks or so.

We are, we'll be coming out with our new show. We just, we've been plugging the live show so much. We haven't had time to plug it, but we are excited and we're putting it together. There's going to be artwork for it pretty soon and everything. So it's going to be very cool and we'll feel real.

Your stupid opinions coming to whatever app you listen on. It will be there. The podcast app near you.. Podcast app near you. Podcast app near you. The internet's full of stupid opinions, and we're going to talk about bad reviews from everything you can imagine and all across the scope of anything,

and it's just people complaining about the dumbest things. And we're going to make fun of them. We can't wait. Your stupid opinions. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you get the bonus stuff all the bonus stuff you got the whole back catalog there's 150 episodes plus on there anybody five

dollars a month you get access not only to all that but new episodes you bet every other week two new episodes one crime and sports one small town murder this week is no different what you're going to get is for crime and sports which you obviously have access to you're going to get we're going to talk about these pictures of death row baseball teams from like 1905 apparently they would have this morbid thing where they put together death row baseball teams and they'd have like an eight-year-old hanging out with them it was the weirdest thing these pictures and we're going to explore what the fuck the story behind those is and then for small town murder i can't wait for this. Defunct theme parks.

Shit that didn't work is my favorite thing in the world. We're going to talk about what's a hulking piece of a roller coaster now? Where'd you used to be able to buy a hot dog? And now it's just nothing. Bad ideas, injuries, put in one of the middle of nowhere, all sorts of different ways.

That's patreon.com slash crime and sports. Oh, what else? And you'll get a shout out here in just a moment. But follow us on social media also at smalltownmurder on Instagram, at murdersmall on Twitter, at smalltownpod on Facebook. That said, Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever, ever beat us to death with barbells and then blame it on witchcraft. Jimmy, hit me with

him right now executive oh boy executive producers this week are kelly folsom and that's it and she started some some some candle wax burners and such and yeah yeah yeah and and then donated to us a big portion of the money that she made off them yeah we allowed her to use our catchphrases on it you're a darling yeah that was nice we were we were very sweet too for allowing we were we were very nice to go out of our way and allow that uh yeah and she and you were very nice back and gave back to us that was good for you thank you other producers this week are principal woodman uh rabbi shmul all of it you got a new puppy named robert i don't know if that's true. I don't even know if Rabbi exists. Well, probably not. Probably.

Baron Miguel Cicluna does exist. Is he any good? I mean, he was kind of a lame... He was a main event bad guy in the 60s and 70s. He was good. I mean, by the 80s he was a jobber. But before that, he was something.

He used to fight Bruno and shit. There you go. Needed to leave the territory. Other producers this week also are Liz Vasquez, Peyton Meadows, Crystal, the Lizard Candy Bussy, Candy Long, Devin Fields. Happy birthday, Devin, son of a bitch. Happy birthday. We don't know you, but your girlfriend wanted you, wife, girlfriend?

We don't know you, but your girlfriend wanted you to. Wife? Girlfriend? The gal who you touch intimately enjoys you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday. Other producers continuing. I'm just taking background while you talk. Like a music, you know?

A romantic soundtrack. That's how that song, Somebody Roll the Weed Up, goes. I'm going to play it for you. You're going to love it. Janice Hill, Carrie Klimek, the North Dakota Narcissism Society. Yes. Bud Permenter, Kevin Waters. Kevin Waters passed away, and he was one of our listeners.

Oh, no. And his pal wanted us to mention him. Well, damn. Sorry about that. It's forever in the ether. There it is. Kevin Waters. Wish we'd have met you. Wish I'd had drinks with you.

Gabe Weilbrenner, Latonya Mosley, Stacey Krohn, Sam Stankiewicz, Hassan McCock. Are you proud of yourself? You son of a bitch. You wasted your voice on that. My throat's destroyed and you're making me say dumb shit elf with no last name ryan h ryan schmidt sean duncan star loving justin bassett amber rittenberg crystal grabman grabman uh johnny broils chris peeler monica gilson eva eva happening uh hi sa eel hi c hi c hi i love Chris Peeler, Monica Gilson, Eva Happening, Haisa Eel, Mike Torrance, James with no last name, Chris with no last name, Savannah Mick, Bridget Lee, DJ Sassy9, Dot Jenkins, Jenna Myers, Tay Ambrea, or Mosey with no last name, Trevor Malone, Ishmael Chiquiz, Guerrero, Lauren Binkley, Katie Campbell, Salon, Salon, Ambrose, Andrew Mason.

Yep. Blair Rodriguez, Letta Raya, Brooke Moore, Tammy Schnell, Kirshy, Christy Kirsch. That's what it is. Brittany Sweatman, Stuart Nace. Josiah with no last name. Victoria Victoita. Prince. Melissa Elizabeth Hughes. Cashews with no last name.

Tatiana Funderburg. I fucking love them. Can you eat? You can eat cashews? Cashews, yes. Hell yeah. Cashews and almonds I can have. Peanuts.

Lucky son of a bitch. Hell yeah. Tatiana Funderburg. Vernon Roberts. Carrie Kay, Joe Pickering, Mark Wolf, Kelly Carey, Lori Rassi, Jill Tomlin, Natalia, Talugano, Tulagon, Talagoon, Elise Cummings, Gina D'Arcleo, Rachel with no last name, Hayden with no last name, DJ Spicer, Jacqueline, Alyssa Mason, Maria Wineclaw, Cassidy Zuherdeveld, Greg Ann Lornell in Alberta, Kelly Schnarr, Amanda Wimple, Sarah R. pirate? Snar. Snar. Sarah R.R.

Lee Keller. Thomas Flores. Jessica Hathaway. Jay. Nope. Day. Day Old Mayo. What?

Gross. Jacob Gibbons. Vern Roberts. Alex Gootfly. Gutflush. Andrew Gross. Gross. Kayla Dillery. Ian flush. Andrew Gross. Gross. Kayla Dillery.

Ian Thomas. Ashley Long. Jessica Bridges. Stephanie Hastwell. Leah Schraff. Josh Garrett. Danielle Rickles. Dexter Prescott.

Robin Curtis. Robert Koenigke. Calvin Split. Sprat. Sprat. Caroline with no last name. Maybe Carolyn. Matthew Hawkins. Nick Wilson. Bonnie Gillette, Gillette maybe, Tabiers13, Margaret Lubert, Cheryl Sari, Laura Smith- Blancet, Laura Tusha, Tusha, Tausha, Brianna Post, Shannon McGrath, Emily, Emily Luce.

Oh, boy. Caleb Parker, Diana with no last name. Taylor with no last name. Amy Broussard, Tess Benson, Jim Schnack, Mason Corwin. Yes. Sean Garfield, Brian Widmer, Owen Teasel, Ashley Daniel, Carl Sadler, Andrew Stifel, Steve Hewitt, H. Ludd, Nicholas Parent, Abby Miniger, Kate Robertson, Nolan with no last name, Chance Crocker, Michael Kerver, Dixon Butts, you son of a bitch, Ron Salisbury, Phantom with no last name, Ross Levy, maybe Levy, Amy Dale Barton, Kim Renick, Zach Holloway, Tim with no last name, Ian Brennan, Melissa Smith, Jacob Arver, Ashley Walker, Tyler Lemire, Charles Rogers, Karen Karina Wood, Venus Logan, James Seeger, Zagar maybe, Amberly, Amberly, Amberly, Carrie, Erica Wolf, Ryan Mahler, Nicole with no last name, Sherry Henry, Christy Frazier, Michael, Michael Click, Nick with no last name, Randall Bennett, Harley Dolson, Jill, and Pixie Pow. And all of our patrons. You're fantastic. Thank you.

Thank you from the bottom of our cold, dead hearts, everybody. We cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us. You're the lifeblood. Thank you. Honestly, Patreon people, you keep this show to be... You're everything.

Thank you for what you do for us is what we're saying. We really do appreciate it. You want to follow us on social media individually, you can do that super easy. Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com while you're buying tickets for live shows and a T-shirt to wear there and getting the virtual live show.

While you're doing all that, you can follow the links right to our social medias and follow them as well. Lots of fun doing that. And thank you for joining us for a wild episode. It's been fucking amazing. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts.

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