Small Town Murder - #375 - Bones In The Bonfire - Andover, Minnesota

Episode Date: April 6, 2023

This week, in Andover, Minnesota, a seemingly small family squabble, snowballs into what can definitely be described as a powder keg of anger. A plan is made, and it's a brutal one, involving a crossbow, sledgehammer, heavy hammers, a baseball bat, and a car. All of which had been spray painted black, and eventually left at the murder scene. A giant bonfire ends up revealing all the terrible truths, including a new mystery, involving unknown bones, from at least one more person!Along the way, we find out that people in Minnesota really like hay, that you shouldn't steal your grandmother's grave, and that no matter how many weapons you use, you can only kill someone once!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Andover, Minnesota, a large bonfire and family squabbles lead police to find more

bones than they really wanted to find. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrogallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another crazy, crazy edition of Small Town Murder. And it's wild again today, as usual. I'm going to stop saying it. You know what? If you're tuning in, it's crazy.

You know the deal. You get that. Before we get to the wildness of this show, and man, there's a couple of lines in this show from people that in this particular episode that you just go, wow, someone said that out loud. That is incredible. I can't wait to get to it. So very quickly, very quickly, head over to shut up and give me murder dot com. Get your tickets to live shows. The whole year is open. Live shows all over the country.

Oh, can't wait. Can't wait. Can't wait. And they're selling out fast, too. Yeah, they are. Minneapolis, San Diego, Denver. Salt Lake has extra tickets now, so you can get in there. Boston sold out. Chicago, get your tickets.

Huge venue in Chicago. There is no Milwaukee show this year, too. It didn't work out. We wanted to do one, but we can't. So go to Chicagoago be there and especially may the 5th is the next live date is in detroit get your tickets for that and may the 6th in pittsburgh those are about sold out so get in there as well and get your tickets to april the 20th the 420 virtual live show you can't get to a live show or you need more live show right in your home or wherever you want honestly you could be sitting in your car right to you sit in your car like a part in a parking lot like a creep somewhere

and watch it we don't care but it's available from april 20th for seven days after that you can buy it anytime before or up to then and watch it and have fun with it there it's going to be crazy just like a live show and it's also 420 so i'm going to get jimmy stoned as can be and then tell him a crazy murder story so it's going to be fun stuff shut up and give me murder.com also definitely want to do patreon patreon.com slash crime and sports all the bonus material you could possibly want anybody five dollars a month or above you get the whole back catalog over 150 episodes new episodes every other week including this week where it's kind of a double

murder thing here so for crime and sports which of course you get access to we're going to talk about the murder of bruiser brody the wrestler so uh very it's been a crazy story been done very well by dark side of the ring but we're going to put a little funny spin on it and then try to and then for small town murder we're going to talk about haunted hotels, a very fun subject, and find out where those are and what goblins are being annoying up and down the halls there. So that is patreon.com slash crime and sports.

And you, of course, get a shout out at the end of the show where Jimmy will mangle your name while he wants to get it correct, more than anything. And also definitely keep an eye out it's coming out soon we'll give you an exact release date very soon our new podcast your stupid opinions where we talk about people's dumb reviews because the internet is all reviews so

reviews of everything oh much fun everything you could think of from a you know what we're talking about we've said it before from an arby'sby's in Ocala, Florida to a child swimming class in Portland, Oregon. That's right. So there you go. Get on in there. Quickly, disclaimer, this is a comedy show. It's a comedy show. We're comedians.

There will be jokes and there will be death. But we try not to make them too close on top of each other. That's how that works there. So we go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why, James? Because we're assholes. Yeah. But we're not scumbags.

There it is. That's how that works. So, yeah, there's nothing funny about an actual murder, but the stuff around it is crazy. Oh, boy. And it's a lot of fun. So we'll talk about that plenty. If that sounds good to you, as it does to me, I think it's time everybody sits back. We're going to clear the lungs a little bit.

You know what I mean? You know what? Where are you right now? Let's find out. Where are you? You know what you're doing? You're picking out perfect chicken breasts for the night's dinner. You're at like an actual butcher case and everything.

When the guy picks it up and goes, this one? You go, hmm, yeah, that one's okay. That one, and? And then you point right in his face and you say, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, Jimmy. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Uh-huh.

What do you say? Let's go to Minnesota. Okay. I like it up there. It's nice up there. You know i'm always in nice stuff here we're going to andover minnesota which is the name of somewhere else right it's yeah there's a lot of andovers and maryland is the one you're thinking the main one yeah there uh this is in central kind of eastern minnesota in the central you know north south wise uh it's near minne. It's a half hour outside Minneapolis.

So you can certainly live here and work in Minneapolis, no problem. It's about two hours over to Iota, Minnesota, which was our last Minnesota episode, the Warlock Test, which that was Iota. Yeah, E-Y-O. Yeah, Iota, Toyota, whatever the hell it is. This is in Anoka County. It is area code 763. A little bit of a history here.

Andover is close to Ham Lake, which we've talked about as well. Remember Ham Lake, Minnesota? We had a crazy fishing for hams all the time. It's the premier ham. It's the premier place to catch a nice spiral cut. A nice breakfast ham steak. At least in the north central region of this country. I don't know about other places.

I'm sure overseas there's some nice ham lakes. But here, this is a top notch. Yeah, they used to be the same place. And then in 1871, Ham Lake split from Andover and became its own. Salty deliciousness. No, listen. They're taking all our hams. He must listen, they're taking all our hams. He must be a resident now to get our hams.

So Andover was known as Grow Township at the time. Oh. Grow Township, which would sound like nowadays, like maybe a city in Oregon that does nothing but grow weed. You know what I mean? This is Grow Township over here. You can cultivate in every square inch of it so it was once a stop on the great northern railroad um andover itself wasn't

established as a city and officially till 1976 which is really yeah it just took a took a long time to file the paperwork took about a hundred years or so to get that paperwork the camaro exists and now we've got a town here listen jimmy you know how paperwork is you go get the papers and they sit around for a while they get shuffled under something on a desk for you know eight nine ten decades and then you go oh shit we're not a town yet we should probably never filed that yeah god damn it be nice to have our own like sewage wouldn't it yeah let me control let's do that smoky and the bandit exists for christ's sake yeah let's get cop cars with our name on it that'd be kind of neat right be fun i mean for christ's sake

fucking uh john lennon's almost dead here let's get this going almost dead he's gonna be dead very soon. That is fascinating. So there's myths around the origins of the name Andover. The big myth was that the name describes a train tipping off the railroad tracks near here. That's what Andover means? That an eyewitness described the train that, quote, went over and over and over. OK, but that's not true because the the Anoka County Union newspaper article first mentions the name of a railroad in 1899, which was before first mentions Andover as the name of the town before any railroad went through the town. Oh, okay. So, yeah, nobody in this town saw a train go over because there is no fucking trains here.

Lion bastards. They were just from Andover, Maryland and thought it would be cute. Yeah, they don't want to say it. Hmm, let's see here. So, five stars. Let's do reviews here. Here's some reviews of the town. Here's a five-star review.

They love this place, man. I mean, been everywhere and keep coming back to andover quote the best place i've ever lived and i traveled pretty much everywhere got several things to do amazing parks by the way there's no punctuation in this at all right so i had to read it a few times to understand where the sentences end and begin so uh things to do amazing parks amazing water parks horseback riding they got helicopter riding tanks that you can go see at the parks memorial parks the neighborhood amazing schools i'm gonna need him to tell me what the fuck that means the hell sit down sir come this sounds like a hysterical person ran out of a building that was on fire.

And they're like, and the thing, and the school, and the park, amazing schools, a memorial park, parks, water parks. There's a thing, and a guy, and his arm fell off. He's very panicky. I don't even know what a helicopter riding tank is. I don't know what that is. They're very excited about it. And the lack of punctuation, too know leads me to believe it's a disturbed mind it's just all of that plus no punctuation tell me where you've been so that i can have some

some reference points travel pretty much everywhere i've been to saint paul i've been uh yeah i've been to lacrosse wisconsin um also i've been to the up in michigan so i've been pretty much everywhere pretty much i. Pretty much. I went to North Dakota once. That was cool. Pretty much everywhere. Here's four stars. Very simple.

One, two, three, four, five word review. Quote, I like where I live. Okay. All right. Is it here? That's it. We don't know if it's there. We don't know what they like about it.

But you know what? We're going to put that aside. Perhaps they're rating it and then saying, I like where I live. You know what I mean? Like, not this. I don't live here. I like where I live. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. That's what I see. Yeah, that's what I like. I like where I live. I don't want to live here. But if you gave it one star, I'd agree with you. But four stars is like, yeah, I guess they live here. Or maybe their place is 10 stars and this place is a mere four, which in comparison isn't the same.

Here's another one. Here's three stars. We have a pool and a museum and a theater, though. If you want events and stuff i'd suggest saint paul or minneapolis that is the most confusing sentence structure i've ever heard we have a pool and a museum and a theater though if you want events and stuff i'd suggest saint paul you know go to the city that would make sense um now here's two stars this is very very short here too there

isn't very much to do there isn't very much to andover the smallest city nearby all brand new doesn't feel homey more like housewives is that a haiku i think it's a haiku i think they just wrote a friend i think yeah there's a there's a pool they said and what else was there at a museum and a museum so And a museum. So, I mean, what the fuck are you complaining about? What more do you want? Doesn't feel homey. More like housewives.

These are all sentences, so it's got to be a haiku, I feel like. Maybe there's something in there I'm not seeing. People in this town, plenty of people, 32,471. Yeah, that's a lot. You can have some stuff. By the way, you're a half hour from Minneapolis, so any of these things you're complaining about are a half hour away from you. And St. Paul's right there. You've got both.

Right there. Everything. Male, female is about normal. It's pretty much 50-50. Median age is pretty close. It's 39.1. A lot of married people. This is a suburb family type of deal here.

62% married. Lower divorce rate. 44% are married with children so it's all that's high all that's high and the divorce rate's low race of this town 89.7 white so let's you know minnesota three percent black okay i don't know if kirby puckett's eventual offspring live here i don't know how many black people are in Minnesota, but you don't see a lot of black people when you go to Minnesota. That I do know. That is fascinating, isn't it? Yeah.

Because we didn't see any, I remember, of the one show. And I opened the show with, where do you keep your black people? And it got a big laugh. So I feel like there's not a lot of black people there. Well, there's always the joke about you got Kirby Puckett and Prince. Right. Where are the rest of the black people? Right.

Yeah. 1.9% Asian, as there's a lot of Asian people in Minneapolis. Huge, huge Asian community there. And 3.1% Hispanic here. So not really very diverse. And religion, 50% religious here in this place. Yeah. And they're spread around pretty good.

Most of them are going to be Lutherans and Catholics. So you get the Lutherans like Drop Dead Gorgeous. And I've been asked specifically multiple times to force you to watch Drop Dead Gorgeous. I don't know how to find it. We will find it. It's on there somewhere. You have an Apple TV. Go on the little search one.

Yeah, just go to the little magnifying glass search thing and just type it in and it'll show you where it is you need to buy and especially after this because i'll make a bunch of references because it's the most minnesota thing ever but there's also catholics here catholics are the baptists of the north as we know they are even up here 0.0 percent% Jewish, though. Not into that, apparently. This is kind of a Nordic area. I don't know if Nordic or... It's very tall and blonde. A lot of tall, blonde people from this area.

Norwegian folks. There you go. Norwegian and up there. They do have a football team named after those people. That's what I mean. So it goes... It's pretty right. Now, in this county, last election, 47.8% voted Democratic, 49.7% Republican, 2.5% Independent.

Median household income around here is very high, $93,314. Yeah. So $40,000 over the average. I see. Anybody that i know that actually lives in minnesota they are doing so well yeah they do people do well up there yeah they do well up there it's a everybody seems to do okay up there but they spend 35 grand a year in heating the heating costs just in your heating it's wild just in your fucking you get a stipend in your paycheck just for heating

they really should do some sort of offset with that shit because it is expensive up there to heat and it's just and the heat you know it kicks on in late august and it's on until at least mid july so it's you have it for most of the time so uh cost of living here, 100 being average. Here it's 112. It's a little bit high. Housing is the real high one. Median home cost $402,900. Shit. So if you want to live out here,

it's going to cost you. And if you do want to live out here, not only will it cost you, we can help you with that. We have for you the Andover, Minnesota Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here, quite pricey, well above the national average, $1,980. Two grand?

Two grand for a two-bedroom apartment is pricey. I don't know if maybe those are condos or what, but that is expensive. Those better. They better have like a sauna. They better be real nice. Yeah, they better be real nice. Better be one of those ones with like a movie theater downstairs and all that kind of shit. Two grand a month. Here's a three bedroom, two bath.

It is 753 square feet. It is a little tiny house. How do you get two bedrooms in that? I had three bedrooms, two bathrooms. Yeah. There's no living room. That's how it works. There's no kitchen or living room.

It's just all bedrooms. Two bathrooms and bedrooms. Yeah, that's all. You can get a hot plate and put that in the bathroom if you want. Jesus Lord. Use the tub as a water supply. There are no pictures of the inside, so I have no idea how you'd squeeze that in there. You couldn't get the camera in there.

I feel like they're lying, is what it is. I feel like there isn't three bedrooms and two baths. Once we get them in here, they're really going to like it. But they're looking for that. Not real nice. $329,900 for this. Oh, my.

It's only on a little property. It's not even a half acre. It's not like it's... It's wild. This here is a better value. Three bedroom, two bath, 2,504 square feet. Okay. Yeah, that's good. It's a boring, nice house in the suburbs. It's got to be two stories, yeah?

This one, no, no. This is a one story. This is a one story. None of the houses here have any personality whatsoever. These are like... They were all built in the same day, it looks like. Every none of the houses here have any personality whatsoever these are like they were all built in the same day it looks like every one of these houses um but i mean it's okay it's fine 409 900 bucks that's your average house like the average cost and everything here's a three bedroom two bath 2504 square foot house um or i'm sorry, the next one is six bedroom, four bath.

So bigger. Sounds like the second one. That's the second one. 4,008 square feet. And it's just a bigger version of the other house. That's all it is. It's just a kind of a more boring. Same shit, more room. Same shit with an extra.

You got more kids? Oh, for Christ's sake. All right, make a six bedroom. That's all it is. $659,900 here for this bad boy. God damn it. The middle house, by the way, was on 2.6 acres. So it had a little bit of land.

The other two were on small lots. Okay. Things to do. Okay. The Andover Family Fun Fest. Yeah. Can't beat that. Join us for the 18th Annual Andover Family Fun Fest with crafts and gift shows.

Gift show? Gift shows. What the fuck is a gift show? You mean gift shops? No, gift show. It's written gift show. What is that? I don't know.

Here's shit to buy people. There it is, everybody. It's all wrapped up with a bow on it. You can't buy it. What's in there? It's wrapped nice, isn't it? Wow. You won't with a bow on it. You can't buy it. What's in there? It's wrapped nice, isn't it? Wow. You won't know until you buy it.

Features parades, food vendors, a street dance, which is always creepy to me. Community booths. I don't know what that does. You get jerked off in there? Like, what happens? What goes on in the community booth? Helicopter rides. That seems like a lot.

Real helicopters? No, just imaginary helicopters. When I was a kid, I'd do this. What do you think, kids? Having fun? Somebody grabs an arm and a leg and spins you around. Oh, maybe. Somebody goes, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba.

an arm and a leg and spins you around while somebody goes, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. Just a big Viking guy that grabs your kids by one leg and swings them around a bunch of times and puts them down while he goes, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. That's perfect. Kids activities, fireworks,

see this and more than it says. Here's what they have here. This is the this and more. Okay. Aprons, baskets, jewelry, quilts, stained glass, candles, hats, children's clothes and accessories, dolls and doll clothes, embroidery, wall hangings, handbags,

woodcrafts, metal art, pet items, crochet and knit wearables, garden planners, paintings, bird houses, cake pops, honey, and more! Everything we can feasibly and possibly make. Plus, hair tinsel and color rub, spray tanning, children's books, photography, home party products, cosmetics, skin care, scrapbooking, jewelry, purses, kitchen tools, self-defense,

health and wellness, and more. Holy. Like any of that stuff? Then come here. I don't want it. None of those things interest me at all. That's the funny part. Or you can go to the Bunker Park Stables.

Go there. There are so many great activities to enjoy at Bunker Park Stable. We specialize in agritourism. So I guess that's, you come in and look around at shit. You can get a trail ride, a pony lead, hay rides slash sleigh rides, I guess depending on time of year, day camp scouting badges. We can bring a hay ride or pony right to your place. Right to your house. Order.

I'd like a shitload of hay. Bring it over. Let's go. And they will load it up in a truck and come to your house. Wow. This is pretty awesome. Bring it over. Let's go. And they will load it up in a truck and come to your house. Wow. This is pretty awesome. Bring you an allergy attack. Come on down.

Come on over. It's going to be awesome. Maybe a horse will bite you in the face. I'll bring you watery eyes, scratchy throat, and a bit face. And a Benadryl. Don't worry. We'll help. You can do pony leads, the perfect activities for the younger horse lover.

It's led by a parent guardian on a shaded continuous loop. Due to insurance requirements, we can no longer allow bike helmets to be worn by riders on the ponies, but riding helmets are included in the price. I guess bike helmets didn't cover your liability. It's a little higher than a bike. Is that what they're saying? Yeah, that's not going to cut it. One split?

You need a horse helmet. Special horse helmet. I don't know what happened. I know. Some kid definitely split his head open. There's some kid up there that absolutely doesn't know where he is 90% of the time, and it's because he wore a bike helmet on a pony. Absolutely.

It's because he wore his fucking Lightning McQueen helmet. Yep yeah didn't work out you can have sleigh rides they have a variety of sleigh options for you to pick from based on the number of people in your group so bigger sleighs or smaller sleighs they could have said that very well much simpler come out to enjoy the ride through the regional park the weather and time with your family and friends as our draft horses pull you through the trails. Oh, boy. That's great. There's also a meet and greet to meet horses. Horses.

Oh. They said it's a good horse introduction for someone who may be afraid or someone who is physically unable to ride. Okay. And then there's a women's equestrian getaway where it's all women, all horses, all day. Yeah, I was going to say that. It sounds shady when you think about it. It's like, what's going on there? Are they going to have like a, you know, never mind.

I won't get into that. So the admission costs for this, a trail ride, $45 per person, pony leads, $24 a child, sleigh and hay rides hundred dollars they start at it's this is pricey this is not a you know an old-timey fucking take your family out to the country day you better pack some american express with this shit those are disney prices for christ that's what i mean these are hardcore three-day park hopper for that shit. I want expensive machinery to maintain for that kind of money. You know what I mean? Right. I need it to look brand new every day.

Hire some fucking teenagers to run around in a costume when it's 1,000 degrees. Do that. Instead, I pay the same price and get on a fucking old, decrepit horse? I get to smell shit the entire time. I get to see a horse make shit yay that's balls swinging in my kid's face and then while it stops and drops its dick yeah pisses everywhere it's gonna be fun crime rate in this town yeah well we're interested in here property crime is just about the national average so really yeah not any safer not any worse now violent crime murder rape robbery

and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime is about half the national average so it's a little bit low here i believe that's probably why people move here yeah that said let's talk about a murder because we have to do that some wild shit to talk about here this is a this is funny shit man it's terrible and it's wild and somebody says the funniest thing ever so it's great uh let's talk about a few people first of all let's talk about a couple we'll start with this guy uh robert hawes we'll start with h-a-w-e-s oh like like the the the uh easter paint thing right weren't they haws pause paas pause yeah you might be right yeah that's pause i'm like haws does haws make a i don't know um i think it's pause paint set yeah

you're right the shit ones right paas yeah where they have the little fucking metal thing that you put it on and then it falls off and it doesn't work at all it doesn't work work at all. The stupid little wire thing, it's like, listen, I could make something better out of a hanger, first of all. This thing's a piece of shit. The weight of the egg will bend the thing, number one. It falls off into the fucking glass all the time or cup or whatever the hell you're using. It's a piece of shit.

And then you can't get it back out. No, and they don't give you a lot of options. And that dye sucks. It really does suck, too. You get a blue one, and you're like, this is a weak blue, man. This is going to take forever. When you dip it, it looks great.

And then once it dries, you're like, well, that's a piece of shit. That's not good. That's pastel as fuck. Great. That's perfect. It's very light. There's nothing you can do with it.

It's a piece of crap. It's like those pumpkin carving kits that are just like the three little things that don't actually cut pumpkin, like the little saw knives yeah three fake knives here give these to your kids so they can be frustrated right these won't cut your kids they won't cut a fucking pumpkin of course they won't cut my kid you ever felt a pumpkin it's pretty tough it's tougher than skin so you're gonna need something that can absolutely cut my kids cut his whole arm off

with something that gets in a pumpkin right you gotta give me it though pumpkin's tougher than my kid's skin by far so uh robert hawes is born in 1924 and uh by 1960 he's married he marries a woman named demetria she goes by d uh her name's Demetria Retke, and she'll become Demetria Hawes. They have several children, as we'll talk about mainly the children here. Edwin Charles Hawes is the oldest. That's Ed. Ed's the oldest. Ed is born February 11, 1962.

After him in 1965 follows a sister named Elizabeth. She is kind of the steadiest of the group always, her mom says. She's the least crazy. She's a middle child and a girl. So in a relationship where

she's the middle and the two are boys, she's like the sane one. You know what I mean? Like, oh, those boys are crazy, but she's the dependable one. That's kind of how that goes. And Elizabeth and Edwin have a very close relationship. Okay. Ed and Elizabeth. They took piano lessons together.

They attended church functions together. They're less than three years apart. Right. That makes it easy. Yeah. You have to kind of, you two, you keep an eye on your little sister and you bunch them up together. Especially back then in the 60s while you were having a 12 martini dinner. You were like, keep an eye on your sister.

He's okay. He'll be fine with her. It's okay. I gave him some fireworks to play with. Anyway, cruise chef is an asshole. It is fascinating how strong those fucking things are. Oh, yeah, yeah. Holy.

They look delicious, though. They fucking are. I like anything that comes with olives in it. That's tremendous. I love a green olive. Give me, yeah. It's like olive water. I'll suck that down.

With, like, icy if it's cold. You're like, look at that. It's like icy olive water. Give me that shit, yeah. Then you hammer it, and you're like, oh oh boy, we're going to have a ride today. Well, it's such a small glass and a lot of booze is left in that small glass. If you get like a bigger glass that's mixed with a bunch of shit, there's, you know, a tumbler.

A tumbler, though. It doesn't look as, it doesn't look as, it's usually not as scary because there's more whatever mixer or whatever in it. Yeah, you're throwing juices in there and shit. This martini is fucking all booze. Yeah, this is just a booze and an olive there you go you know when you come out in the olives like you know like looks like a raisin you're like this is a problem this is too strong uh-oh uh-oh so yeah they did all that together and as they grew up, they included each other in their activities.

Elizabeth, she had, Elizabeth would, she did theater productions. She put on theater productions, and her brother Ed helped out with a couple of those and, you know, that sort of shit. And when he gets married later on, she helped plan his wedding and everything. So, yeah, they're very close, and they help each other with everything. And she, Ed has a young daughter eventually, andizabeth is you know it's ann elizabeth she's really into the young daughter her niece and uh she would watch the kid while edwin was busy sometimes she'd take her for a whole weekend and you know hey it's gonna be a girl's weekend he named his daughter after her that's a that's a big deal no no their daughter's not named elizabeth oh i thought you said ann elizabeth no no and elizabeth oh got it okay yeah yeah no

no no just say ann at that point because those names that's not mary ann that doesn't flow together ann elizabeth is just two names yeah that's two vowels that start them that's not yeah that's that doesn't work they don't flow together at all. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1

and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery+, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced.

She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

The mom, Demetria, described Elizabeth as, quote, the family's problem solver and social director. And also the most dependable of her four children as well. The dependable is really the one that comes to mind here because the rest of them are a little flighty, as we'll find out. Andrew comes along in 1972, so 10 years younger than Ed, which 10 years is a big difference. Fuck yeah, it is. It's less of a, it's, you don't really like scheme and scam together when you're 10 years apart my brother's 10 9 years younger than me and it's you know i didn't scam and scheme with him i just no he was like out for him yeah he's a little kid that you're watching

out for when you're growing up you're not looking at it like that um so andrew uh like we said born there andrew's a very interesting fellow who we'll talk plenty about in a little while. And then after that, another daughter named Stephanie comes over. And she's probably, I believe, the smartest one in the group because out of everything we're going to talk about, her name never comes up because she's not involved in any of this shit. So she's the smart one. Let's just say that. Stephanie, good job staying out of this fucking mess. She's a good kid. I don't know about good, but certainly smart.

She realized that I am staying away from this sibling drama. Okay. This is a family that is, the siblings are over enmeshed in each other's shit. Really? Yeah, they're over enmeshed, as we'll talk about. They really are. It starts out healthy, and then it gets to a point where you guys all need to just go do your own things. Can't anybody move to Vegas or something?

Like people, what the fuck are you all doing around here? Up each other's asses constantly. Somebody moved to Tampa or somewhere. I don't know where people move. Go somewhere. So apparently it was Andrew worshipped Ed. I mean, he's 10 years older than him. He worshipped him.

He loved him. You know, he said that he grew up admiring him. He wrote a whole school essay about him, calling him his hero. About his big brother. Yeah, because it was, you know, write about your hero. And his hero was my big brother Ed. Right. Because he's nice to him and all that kind of shit.

So he's 10 years older. That's a lot. And he seemed to be, as far as Andy was concerned, Ed could do no wrong. I mean, he seemed smart. He seemed to have his shit together and all that kind of thing. He says, this is Andy, quote, he taught me how to throw a football, took me fishing. We had in-depth conversations every day about everything. He was his mentor.

He was really involved. Bringing him along. Yeah, so he worshipped him. Now, it's said by spouses of these kids later on that the mom, Dee, she plays her kids against each other as kind of a game. Seems to be entertaining for her. And she'll do that throughout this story, too, a little bit here and there. But, yeah, they grew up in Golden Valley, which is a suburb of Minneapolis, and she would always try to pit the three oldest against each other,

Andrew, Ed, and Elizabeth. And Elizabeth always ended up siding with Andrew because he's the younger brother. I don't know. She's trying to protect him. He's not a baby, but he's the, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

It seems like, like I said, it seems like Stephanie has no involvement in the social realm of this family. How far age-wise is Stephanie? She's much younger probably, huh? I guess. I don't know how much younger she could really be because the parents are getting up there in age. By 1972, dad's 48 years old when Andrew's born.

So, you know, how much younger? How far, yeah. How much further can you go and still be willing to have a baby in the house? Yeah. She just might be the smart one that goes, drama, fuck that. You know? I'm not dealing with any of this shit yeah now late 1980s andrew this is pretty amazing actually he launches a yard care business as a teenager

which tons of people tons of kids have you know lawn mowing business quote unquote businesses which means they go up and down the street with their lawnmower you want your lawn mowed for 30 so when he was 11 andy the lady across the street hired him to mow her lawn that's how it started he did a good job and did a nice job of edging and shit like that so then the neighbor next to her hired him too said you should do my lawn too and pretty soon everybody was hiring him so they like so yeah he turned into that. By the time he was 12, he would have a trailer with his mower, and he would have a 10-speed bike, and he'd fucking – Wow. He would pull his mower on a trailer to be able to do this. Yeah, and he started getting more and more accounts.

And after a little while, he had to start hiring people because he started getting so many lawns that he couldn't do them all himself. So he had flyers. He was like 13 years old he had flyers he had business cards he had like employees he had grown men that i'm sure were probably alcoholics or and or crackheads working for him but he had grown men working for him other kids firing grown men for yeah listen i'm sorry the guy's like i got four kids he's like look i'm sorry i don't know what to tell you i know i go to school the two of them are in my class i get it i know i know those kids i know those kids and i'll know why they don't have any lunch tomorrow i know those kids they're better at working than you yeah maybe we could bring them in here what

do you say so uh he does this he has a dedicated business line in his mother's basement. He's got a phone for work. He's got a phone line for his office down there. So it's pretty cool. Ed taught him everything he said. Ed taught him how to manage the business, what to do, how to take care of the money. He said through the whole process he would ask Ed what to do, and Ed would help him with everything. So that's how it went.

Now, Ed, I guess, had his own cleaning company for years, so he knew how to do kind of peace. Entrepreneurial family, huh? Yeah, it seems like it. So Andy, though, had a hard time in school because he's got this big business outside of school and he's going to school at the same time. And he's like, I don't really care about this class. I have – I'm running a business already right i'm fucking tired by the way yeah you're gonna teach me about the economy i'm literally running a business that's successful right now i can teach you i did seven hours here and eight at my job this is stupid outside mowing

lawns yeah so yeah that's that's pretty crazy so he would actually at first he started to forge notes saying like he had a doctor's appointment and he would have like a big account he needed to do that day so he'd have to start early and so he'd do all that how many times do you have in your teeth clean son jesus christ no shit what happened now wow this is crazy again again wow that is 12 dentist appointments this month i mean my goodness a colonoscopy what jesus this is crazy why are you having open heart surgery you're 11 and you seem very healthy so you're playing basketball with the other kids yesterday what's going on you're gonna need a three-month break to recover?

This is wild. Holy shit. How'd you get syphilis? This is weird. So he had to end up, basically he had to start going to school. Kids were getting, parents were getting mad. So they realized, Ed realized that this kid's business was more successful than his. So Ed sold his cleaning company to his sister Elizabeth.

And Ed joins the Hawes Lawn Service. He's in on that, huh? He's going to join us. He's got to help his little brother while he goes to school. The teachers are starting not to believe the notes after 14 of his grandparents died. They thought that was odd. So he had to stop making excuses. That is a very broken home. Yeah. This is your eighth grandmother to die. What's going on, son? I feel like there's something you're not telling us. So they hired telemarketers at some point. Wow. Oh, yeah. They

had telemarketers. They ended up, they bought out a competitor who had been around for 30 years. Yeah, some established competitor. Some 55-year-old guy who decided to just say, oh, fuck it, I guess I'll retire now rather than compete with these kids. Some 55-year-old man answered the phone to a 12-year-old going, listen, old man. Yeah. This town's not big enough for the two of us. Yeah, listen, pal. We're going to talk right now. So they do. They do that. They eventually got a warehouse in Minneapolis to store all their

equipment. This becomes a big company. This isn't, you know, at a mom's basement anymore. They have offices. It becomes very big. This is the family business here. And Ed was helping the business a lot, helping on the business end, doing all this kind of shit. The mother and grandmother now, Dee and her mother, asked Ed, could you manage our investments since you're doing a good job with the money here? Would you take over our stuff? Because we don't know what we're doing. And Andy said it was his expertise. He's a genius. I felt lucky to have him there helping me do this it was a match made in heaven as far as i thought so shit andy's loves his brother obviously um and it got huge the business

got super huge um ed at one point gets married has a daughter like we said he gets married, has a daughter, like we said. He gets married to a woman named Christina. Now, 2005 comes around, and Andrew's only 33 at this point, but he develops thyroid problems. Oh, no. Now, and then he's diagnosed as a diabetic also. Oh, shit. His health is quite

precarious from here on out, Andy. He's been celebrating with a lot of Cokes it's just been cokes and coke and everything else he's really really let himself go man yeah it's hard to hard to take care of your health when you're successful at 13 yeah all those ham sandwich lunches on the job site he was having you have a lot of those and mom can't tell me shit because i'm more successful than her and i'm 15 i have a dedicated phone line in her basement. So I feel like it's going to work out better for me.

He also gets a fiance as well named Christina Dorinden. So he's got a fiance who's a few years younger than him. He's doing all right for himself here. She's 29 later. So what is she? She's three years younger than him. So anyway, he ends up once he's sick, he has to take a leave of absence from the lawn service. He's all fucked up.

He's got to get his health right. So 18 months he takes off. Jesus. That's a long vacation. Or not a vacation, but a long sabbatical there. Yeah, it tells you how serious this is. Yeah, he's got serious health conditions. He's really got to get his shit together.

So that happens in 2005. That tells you how serious this is. Yeah, he's got serious health conditions. He's really got to get his shit together. So that happens in 2005. Then by the spring of 2007, some problems start to emerge in the family business here. Okay. A little bit. A little bit here. So for 18 months, like we said, he was gone. Once he comes back, Andy and his girlfriend start looking they needed to look for some records on a computer like a rarely used computer in their office just not very seldom used

um they were stored there so he turned it on and noticed that ed has been using this computer a lot and it has a lot of the books on there and And it's a different version of the books than he's been seeing. That he's been presenting, huh? Yes. They noticed that Ed has been running all of his personal expenses through the business. Oh, shit. Everything. His mortgage, his rents, bills, and car payments and all that.

The business has been paying for those. Then they found a checking account at the bank that the company didn't do business with. So he opened up a different line somewhere that they didn't even know about that he was putting money in. Oh, boy. Then they also found a maxed out line of credit that they didn't know about on the business as well. God damn it, Eddie. So, yeah, Ed's been doing some shit here. So at the time they found all this, Ed was out on an appointment.

So Andy started going around the office asking questions, going, hey, do you know anything about this? Have you got a card and had to use it for equipment? What's going on here? Someone in the office tipped Ed off about it and called Ed up and was like, hey, your brother is here poking around. Asked a lot of questions. He's got your computer on. There's all sorts of shit going on so ed never came back he just never came back to work not that day ever

oh he's not gonna work there anymore he left on an appointment and just ghosted the whole company that he's worked for for 25 years just ghosted that brother's company doesn't matter gone who cares that is crazy he never came back he just never came never called just done like he talked to his brother ever again like just nope just like it was a girl he lost interest in just a quote this is from andy he just didn't show up the next day he just didn't show up the day after that. He didn't return phone calls. There was no contact, period. Holy shit. So he knew he did a lot of bad shit. It was too much to even explain away or like lie about him.

You know what I'm saying? He doesn't even want to have that conversation. He was like, oh, I can't explain that. Every conversation, every question I'm asked is going to end with, and I stole that. And I stole that and I stole that because when he started Steel and he probably had like at first you have I assume a lie to cover that as you're doing it well if I'm

asked about it I'll do this and if I'm asked about it but at some point it grows so big where you just go I don't know at some point it's like John Wayne Gacy with 30 people buried under the house where you just go I don't know once you start poking around down there I don't even know what to say anymore the whole thing you just go, I don't know. Once you start poking around down there, I don't even know what to say anymore. The whole thing is a fucking mess.

I don't know. Yeah, all right, man. It's too much to deal with at that point. So he ended up, Andy ended up ransacking his brother's office and, you know, looking for more evidence. Andy also left a threatening note as well at Ed's house saying saying you know fucking i'm gonna get you call me motherfucker i'm gonna get you ed you son of a bitch what's wrong with you um so not wonderful now while this is going on ed still has power of attorney over his now 100 year old grandmother's estate as well oh and the mom's estate so the they found out that Edwin, who has power of attorney of his grandmother's estate, had sold her stocks, like her blue chip shit that-

All the old lady stuff. All the old lady stocks, yeah. Believed to be worth about $600,000 to $1 million, somewhere in that range. What is Ed getting into? Dude, Ed has got to have- well, we'll talk about it. You'd think Ed would have a Coke problem or ladies. Yeah, he likes going to Vegas and getting some showgirls or something. But no, it's not even that.

Ed's into super into day trading. That's what he likes. Oh, and he's no good at it? Well, no. No one's good at that for the most part. There's a couple people who are, but the it well no he's not good no one's good at that you know for the most part there's a couple people who are but the only reason they make money is because no one else is good at it that's why if everyone was good at it no one would make any money it would be pointless he's just gambling with the stock market every day yeah fucking around with other people's money

it's fucking crazy so uh yeah he had used uh six hundred thousand dollars even emptied her burial fund not only her stocks everything her fucking funeral fund you know ten grand that she left to get buried ground because of him that's it now we got to keep her in the yard because of you you got to keep staying alive grandma grandma i'm sorry we can't afford to. Hang on, Grandma. Keep breathing, lady. Wow. He drained his mother's retirement account. Oh, my God. As well, his mother said, I was stunned.

I could not believe it at first. He took advantage of us, his family. Yeah. His family. Oh, God. This is wild, man. I'm sorry, Mom. Ed has lost his mind.

I bought so much Radio Shack. This is wild, man. I'm sorry, Mom. Ed has lost his mind. I bought so much Radio Shack. This is, yeah, because Circuit City was, I felt like it was going to bounce back. I just did. It felt good. I felt like Lehman Brothers was a good bet. I don't know what it was. Jim Cramer told me it was a good bet, so I figured, why not? He yelled it at me for like 30 minutes, and I said, oh, fuck it, I'll buy it.

And then, well, what do you know? Everybody needs electricity. How was I supposed to know Enron was gonna do this yeah god damn it it seemed worldcom seemed like such a solid company just don't know what happened so this is fucking crazy here they're all angry and he's this is the the behavior of someone who has like a raging coke problem in like the 80s. Like that's the type of behavior. Like, oh, man, I blew through a million dollars in six months or something. But this is day trading.

I guess day trading is the same as gambling if you're not good at it. It sure is. Yeah. If it's not your profession, it's the same as you might as well be going to a casino. Everybody's heard that story of somebody that's bought a stock and then made a bunch of money off of it. Yeah. Yeah. know everybody's heard that story of somebody that's bought a stock and then made a bunch of money off yeah yeah and he probably expected that one would pay off and eventually i'd get all that money back that i've lost and i'll cover it it's not a big deal eventually i will uh you know the

slot machine will hit eventually i'll get the hand i want i'll get 21 i'll get that's the that's what that's what keeps yeah that's what keeps them going whole cities live on that bet of thrive i think it's gonna happen it's gonna happen they put up fountains for it oh shit oh my god a loan also was taken out on his grandmother's home on her home he's taking he's gonna get his hundred-year-old grandmother thrown out of her house. He's burned through so much money. So much. Now he's so down, he's taking, and then he'll have to pay back. You know what? I would say take the house first before you take the burial fund.

She's not going to live that much longer, but her eternal resting spot, at least give her that for Christ's sake. Holy. Her eternal resting spot, at least give her that for Christ's sake. Holy. Here on earth, she could stay in someone's extra bedroom. But after that, we really need to get her in the ground, I feel like. It's all set. It's all set.

So she did that. After finding out about the missing money, the mom, Dee, she checked what had been a $20,000 retirement fund for her and her husband that he had been handling and she said quote there was probably two or three dollars in that account drained it drained it so that is fucking crazy they asked at one point

when she was asked by a friend why did Ed leave the lawn care business I thought he was running it. She said, quote, I would say the word would be embezzlement. We learned about many things about his work behaviors at the business. And they said it's been an ongoing nightmare. Now, there's a big rumor that Andrew claimed that Ed stole money. Obviously, he did.

And that Ed chased him out of the business at gunpoint, somebody said. But that's not what happened. Everybody said he never came back to the office, he did. And that Ed chased him out of the business at gunpoint, somebody said. But that's not what happened. Everybody said he never came back to the office, period. That was that. It's an even better story, actually. Yeah. Ghosting your whole family after 20 years of being in a business is the weirdest shit ever. That's crazy.

That's a funny story. To not even show up and be like, what are you talking about? Oh, I make up some guy that you let help out, some money. Make something up to give yourself some breathing room. This guy just goes, I'm never going back. Fuck it. Fellman Louises it off a cliff. And he didn't even have a chance to gunpoint him.

No, he couldn't find him. He wrote him threatening letters like, I'd love to chase you out of this building at gunpoint if I could find your pussy ass. Come back so I can make good on these rumors. Yeah. I want people to know. So he said that about, and quote, he went into hiding. I got the bill on our credit cards. He was bouncing from motel to motel.

He was still using company credit cards to bounce from motel to motel. Why are those cards open for him so they could try to track him down smart move that's why they were like if we we keep the cards open then we know what motels he's at the next day after he's already there and gone so soup kitchens don't keep a daily log no uh now ed ends up filing an order of protection against his brother and sister, against Elizabeth and Andrew, because Elizabeth took Andrew's side. That's some balls to go to the police for protection when you are a criminal. Well, why do they want to hurt you? Well, I stole everything.

I drained my brother's business that he's had since he was 12. Oh, my grandmother doesn't have a hole in the ground anymore that we were supposed to go in. Took all my mom's money. You know, shit like that. They'd probably be like, sounds like you deserve it, son. Matter of fact, we're going to give you a room. You don't need a hotel tonight. Yeah, sounds like you've got whatever the hell that is coming to you, right?

We'll check you right in. Why do they want to murk you? I want to talk about that so little I won't even talk to these people ever again. Ever, ever again. I'm not sure, because I haven't spoken to them. I won't talk to them about it. What makes you think I'm going to tell you? Yeah.

Could have something to do with the every drop of wealth that our family had I have drained and thrown in the garbage. That could be part of it. Why do they want to hurt you i plead the fifth yeah matter of fact add grandma to that list too i know she's a hundred but i'd like a she's she's awfully angry i don't know if you plead the fifth and get a get a protection order well they're they threaten him though they they leave notes but threatening physical violence so the cops unless there's charges filed by saying that he embezzled something he's just a guy that's getting notes with someone saying they're gonna kill him all over the place so he's why would you not don't

know it doesn't matter what the reasoning is they don't go well he kind of deserves it so no restraining order that's not part of it not even imagine if a woman went to a restraining order against her boyfriend he'd be like yeah she sounds like a bitch so uh nope not gonna let you do that lady that's that wouldn't work told him i embezzled millions of dollars they might arrest her they might but he's not gonna say it doesn't matter what he did they don't ask why are they mad at you that's not part of the restraining order part of the investigation what are they the fact that he's threatening you is enough to get a restraining order.

It doesn't matter why. You can say we've had a family beef. There's a disagreement over the family business. You can lie. You don't have to say because I stole a million dollars from them. I don't think that's what he said. I think you know that. I love that part of it so bad.

Yeah. I really do. Ed ended up, he was writing letters to Andy trying to make up with him. Oh, really? That's what he was doing. Yes. He said that. Now, we'll talk about, but the family went to several law enforcement agencies trying to get charges filed against Ed, and nobody would file charges against him for it.

There's reasons for it. We'll get into it but okay um ed wrote a letter to him saying uh this is all easily solvable you're my brother i love you is what he said to andrew this is after andrew's been writing him threatening letters to him um but they weren't the mom said they weren't going to listen at all to that they weren't trying to hear that you can't bury grandma it's not easily fixed no that's fucking awful so uh this is in addition to the families trying to keep the business running and shit like that any money that they have the other grandma mom everybody's trying to pump money into the business because the business is kind of keeping everybody afloat here so while this is going on uh ed leaves and starts. He goes and works for another company, a different lawn care company here, and begins taking clients from his brother.

Starts stealing clients. So, yeah, the people he worked for 18 months at this other place. And they said, quote, this is Green Garden Landscaping. place and they said quote this is green garden landscaping he went to they said he never missed a day of work in 18 months that he worked there and uh said he didn't drink he didn't smoke he's a wonderful man great employee he's got no vices nope just gambling that's his vice yeah legal gambling legal yep yeah lose pissing money away is his vice investing in shit companies being shitty at investing at least if you do coke you'd have some stories yeah this is boring you sat in your fucking computer pissing money away yeah coke and you know get out there you know what i'm saying go yeah go do some shit with your with your money

so let's say if you're gonna piss your away, do something fun is what I'm getting at. So they said that Dee, the mom, saw Ed periodically after this because he would still go talk to his mom, just not the other siblings. And he was at some point here planning to move into Dee's home. So he was going to move in there, Ed was. Also a big sticking point, and this is the big one here. Ed continues to drive a Volkswagen Passat that is owned and insured by the lawn service company. Okay. Continues to do that.

Andy wants this Passat back so bad. He is fixated on this Passat. He needs the Passat. We are getting that Passat back like nobody's fucking business. Contacted the Golden Valley Police Department, and they told him, well, we can't do anything about it. I mean, he's got the keys. He handed them to him legally. You know, all that kind of thing. You should confront him and try to take the car.

That's what the cops told him. I don't know. Maybe try a fist fight see how that works i'm not sure but confront him good advice everybody i am shocked wow this is excellent police work there so um they want ed charged though andy and elizabeth file a complaint in october 2007 with the police in Robbinsdale where their grandmother lived saying that Ed stole money from her that's I guess the

company money technically he had a right to do what he was doing and there's a lot of gray areas but they said he stole money from you know did not did not take his fiduciary responsibility seriously or whatever so they supplied police with a huge binder of papers

uh with all this shit and forensic accountants they hired to produce all this shit to show what he did and they the department turned it over to the minnesota financial crimes task force so because there's like accountants there you can't give an average street cop a bunch of books and tell them look what he did they'd be like wow yeah there's a lot of ones and threes and fours in there i don't know what happened those are all numbers wow look at that hey bob take a look at this oh my look at that look at that big number subtract that big number oh but that makes a smaller number and that's no insult to them because if you gave those books to me and jimmy we'd look at them and be like whoa this is this is why i don't do adult things.

This is why I'm a comedian. Financial crimes rivet me because I don't understand a fucking word of it. No. And I don't get how it happens. Obviously, you know why it happens, but I don't understand it. Read the big short. Your head will explode. It's fucking amazing.

Read it. Fuck. It's amazing. I've tried to watch documentaries about that shit and I can't understand it. I read the book and I was like, I got to read that another seven, eight times. I still don't understand what the hell happens. I can't keep up. Exactly.

I'm not smart enough to understand. I'm not financially savvy enough to even know what half these things are. So now the agent who examined the documents, a guy named Glenn Bona, he said that it looked possible that Ed had taken money from his grandmother, but it was a tough case to make because of a few things. Ed had power of attorney to move his grandmother's money at will if he thought it was in her best interest. So they said that Bona believed that Ed had improperly taken at least $80,000, but the transactions he identified took place more than six years earlier. So there's a statute of limitations problems. And then some of them, if he invested them in stocks that didn't work, that could be considered, that's within his rights to move the money to a

place he thought it was a better investment. Just because it doesn't work out doesn't mean that it's a criminal act. I thought it was going to work. I was wrong. It doesn't work out. It doesn't mean that it's a criminal act. I thought it was going to work. I was wrong. Yeah. Now, that's what he could say anyway.

So they said that the U.S. Attorney's Office also not interested in pursuing the case. Yeah. So they were like, fuck. The kids were super pissed. They're like, we can't get any retribution on this guy. He stole our money. He's driving around in our goddamn Passat. This is bullshit.

I need that car that's a tear up from the jetta back come on i really need the slightly larger jetta i really do i need it so uh they talked things over with the supervisor of the financial crimes task force and uh they said this officer the bona guy said he wanted to keep trying to help the family but he couldn't figure it out. He couldn't find a way. At one point, Andy found an envelope at the home of his grandmother addressed to her and Stephen Retke, who was an uncle that died in the late 1960s.

Her son. Okay. Inside was a statement from a retirement account. This is fucking wild. A statement from a retirement account. His grandmother fucking wild. A statement from a retirement account. His grandmother had no idea existed. They showed it to her. She's like, I don't know what this is.

So Andy concluded that Ed had stole the uncle's identity and used it to establish new accounts. Oh, my God. So Bona typed the names into Google and he found a listing for an Elizabeth and Stephen Retke in Alaska. He called their house and asked to speak to Stephen but the woman who answered said he's not here right now. He's out panning for gold.

For real. He's just out panning for gold right now. I'm sorry. This is in 2007. By the way. Not 1877. This is that his day job panning for gold. He's out panning for.

It's all what he's doing. I don't know. No. So they chatted for a few. And this Bona guy realized that the couple had had an account with the investment house in question. Their statement got sent to Robbinsdale by mistake. So this wasn't Stephen. Completely innocent.

Yeah, this wasn't Ed opening up a thing in their name, stealing their identity. This company just mixed up their retkies and sent theirs to this other retkie. Wow. That's what happened. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery

Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more.

Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the W wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to generation y ad free right now by joining wondery plus this poor guy though this cop is going delving into all this shit the next thing you know there's a guy panning for gold and then none of that works out and we thought we were on the right track and had him dead to rights with some financial crimes that are easily proven. This is going to be A to B right here.

Nope. Black and white. Nope. Fuck. Gold panner over here. Prospector Fred is out fucking panning for gold and we can't see him. We caught an actual prospector. God damn it.

Shit. god damn 2008 shit so at one point and also the cops are starting to think also that andy has a bit of an obsession with getting ed here so they're starting to be like okay andy calm down look we'll do what we can with we don't have the same like personal vendetta that you do we're just looking to see if there's crimes our our wherewithal and livelihood is not threatened here no totally and then also they say that andy is just starting to kind of reach for shit well here's an example andy told the this cop that ed was trying to poison him poison him by putting quote special water in a bottle labeled with andy's name so the the cop was like okay this is getting crazy so the cop said how about this you know what i'll do because i can get a hold of this guy you can't but i can because i'm a cop i can go over there he said i will i'll try

to what if i broke a remediation i'll get in between the two of you sit down with you two and we'll work this all out. I'll help you. This is not this man's job, by the way. He is like a forensic fucking accounting crimes cop. He has nothing to do with this. But he's so annoyed with them. The only way that this is going to stop is if he makes them make up with each other.

What if we sit down and talk about it? This is like a parent who's tired of the brothers fighting. That's it. Everybody sit down. I don't care anymore who's right and who's wrong. So he tried to do it. Ed agreed to participate. He said, sure, I'll do it.

And then the rest of the family completely refused to participate. Do they want to fix this or not? Apparently not. They just want Ed to get arrested. That's all they want. So that's how that went now july 17 2007 robert the family patriarch that we talked about born in 1924 he's 82 years old he kills himself oh boy which at 82 i don't know that's kind of a lateral move

at that point it's yeah I feel bad for him. Not to joke about fucking suicide, but 82 is like. To be in that position at 82. It hurts. Yeah. That's what I mean. It must have been. Well, Demetrius said he's had depression for about 50 years.

So by 82, you go, and I can't walk. I don't know anymore. You know, this is terrible. It's getting worse every day, and one day it's going to be so bad that I can't even do anything about it. Exactly. So I'm doing it before that happens. I think maybe that's what it was. And a lot of people go, Jesus Christ, I figured I'd be dead by now.

Yeah. You know? Average life expectancy and all. This isn't so bad. I'm playing with house money now? This is ridiculous. I didn't want to do this. It'd be like trying to lose money in a casino and you keep hitting your god damn it 23 red

it fucking hits again what the hell i need the write-off god damn it jesus this sucks so 2008 now there's a fight over the inheritance of his estate here, which is fun here. July 19th, 2008. There's an this comes to a head here. So this is two days after the father killed himself. There's a woman named Elsa Marshall. And she imagine being her watching this scene play out before you. OK, she's driving on chicago avenue in south minneapolis

and she sees a white pickup truck revving up its engine and bumping into uh bumping into the another car revving it up so hard that it eventually spins that car around oh my god basically pit maneuvered this car right and so this car was facing the uh the opposite direction it was a white uh pickup truck and a volkswagen passat of course it was of course it was inside the passat was an adult male driver and a little girl his daughter it's ed and his daughter in the car and andy has found him on the street and is bashing his fucking truck into his car, pit maneuvering him while his little niece is in there. And he's like, I own it. Who cares?

Fuck it. Yeah, I can bash into this. So an officer, Officer Floyd Burris of Minneapolis Police Department, said that he responded to this disturbance and said the car involved was a Volkswagen Passat driven by Edwin. Edwin's young daughter was the passenger. Edwin told him that he was rear-ended by a white pickup truck. He observed that the driver of the pickup truck was, in fact, his brother, and that he thought his brother might hurt him with the car, so he was worried. So Andrew gets arrested.

Oh. You can't do that on the street. It's assault. It's assault. Not only that, you're causing cars to spin around when they shouldn't be in traffic. You're putting other people in danger now. And there's a child in the car. That's the other thing.

There's a goddamn child that you're related to in the car. Even if you hate Ed, follow him until he drops the kid off and then fucking pit maneuver him. What are you doing? Right. Unbelievable. So now during this time, they're so mad, Elizabeth and Andy, that they don't even know what to do with themselves. It gets to the point where Daniel Romig, R-O-M-I-G, who's Elizabeth's husband. Andy and Elizabeth fantasizing several times. They wish we could just kill him, goddammit. But it wasn't a realistic, you know. It was just a fantasy. It was just a fantasy.

It wasn't a threat. So enter an elderly man named Martin Weltman. Martin, he is Ed's friend. And he says, well, hey, why don't you move into my house since you're looking for a place to stay. And, you know, you're looking for a place to stay and um you know you're you're not safe obviously or you're being hunted by your siblings yeah you're broke and you're being hunted down in the street by your siblings here you know having deadly weapons fucking bash into you yeah so um now they said they weren't aware of the feud about the family business they

just knew there was some kind of feud and that Ed was scared of his siblings. So they said, you know, hey, come on over here. They also realized that at some point Edwin starts carrying a gun. It's after Andy bashes into him in the car. He goes and gets a gun and starts carrying it around because he's, you know, a little bit worried. Scared for his safety and the safety of his child. That's the other thing. Now, Bona, the officer who had tried to arrange the mediation, the financial crimes guy, he paid a visit to Ed.

And this is one of the other reasons why no charges were filed. He said he didn't seem to be living the high life when he visited him. It wasn't like he goes over there and it's, you know, his Porsche's in the driveway. And he's got like counting millions of dollars. Two bikini-clad women fanning him with palm leaves while feeding him grapes or anything. He was renting a room from an elderly man and driving around in a four-year-old Passat

with dents all over it because he got bashed by his brother's pickup truck. A Passat without a giant bumper. Yeah, he's like, this is kind of not exactly busting like a fucking Bernie Madoff over here. This is kind of a low-level crime boss over here. So he said that it looked like he did it from what he could understand. It was all day trading.

And he found out that Ed went to seminars all the time on day trading. He really wanted to be good at it. He just wasn't. It's a hell of a way to learn. Yeah. Apparently, well, I guess you have to do something to get good at it. Sure. So apparently he figured he'd get into it and he'd do these seminars

and eventually he'd figure it out. But I don't know if trading is like that. Trading, you might have to have an idea of how to maybe i don't know idea first i don't know no matter no matter what you try to try to get good at it you rarely have eighty thousand dollars at stake and then more and then more that's not even yours to right to play with based on whether or not you're good at this. If they caught him in the beginning, would he be like, I'm in training right now, okay? It takes money to make money. Listen. I got a seminar in three months.

In the meantime, I'm going to keep trying. We got a million. I lost $200,000. That other $800,000 is going to get us that first $200,000 plus a bunch more. Don't worry about it. It's fine. He went to seminars. He tried to even interest his mother in coming to seminars come to seminars with me and we'll learn how to day trade together and she said she couldn't

make sense of any of it she said so she gave up she's like gosh she goes that didn't make any sense i don't know it's complicated yeah um so they also asked about his uh his personal life because he was president of a local chapter of an organization called isha i s h a which is promotes yoga um especially expensive training it's one of these you know fucking nexium type deals is what it sounds like like uh focused on yoga yeah just focused on yoga to make you better and all that kind of shit one of those type of deals i'm not sure don't don't quote me on allegedly so it was the practice of quote inner engineering as a path to success see what i mean like it's the end product isn't you feel good from yoga the end product is you're successful because this will engineer that

that's what nexium would do with all their shit the end, it's a fully engrossed thing, and then at the end, you're a fully recognized person who can do all these wonderful things. You're selling an emotion. Yeah, it is referred to by some people, and I don't know, and maybe if it is, we could do a bonus episode on the whole thing, but this episode's too crazy

to get too deep into the yoga shit, so a lot of people refer to this as a cult. Don't know if it is or not. Know nothing about it. So it became to be this Isha or Isha or whatever it is came to be a central thing in Ed's life, though. He met with a with a mediation group in the Twin Cities several times a week and led frequent training sessions and courses here. Meditation? It's yoga, all that kind of shit um to people they say the

people who knew him before his enlightenment ed's deepening involvement with the group made him a change a lot he started to become a different person here uh his girlfriend was completely overwhelmed by the uh by the changes he said By his huge enlightenment, yeah. His dick even grew. It was amazing. He said, quote, Ed was living a very different lifestyle from how we had lived when we were together. She said he had what seemed like a completely different set of friends.

He changed his cell phone a couple times. That was to run from his brother. That was different. It seemed like he had this huge upheaval in his life, and yet he just seemed to step into a brand new life without it affecting him at all and yet the rest of the family was in great distress so ed just said i'm just leaving that behind this is me now i'm picking up the pieces and i'm going to build myself back yeah they should do the same that's's what I'm saying. So also, he's also very paranoid as well. He carries a gun everywhere he goes.

Yeah, he said that he had all sorts of shit to Ed bought guns and told his friends and family that he carried them everywhere. He said he had to because he found a note from his brother saying, I'm going to kill you. So it's it's a lot. Quite a bit here. All sorts of shit going on so andy wants the passat back god damn it even though it's dented up he really wants it back and he wants it now fucking now so he tried a bunch of shit all right he changed the hawk the hawk's lawn service bylaws So whatever their company bylaws are. Now the bylaws said Edwin couldn't use the Passat anymore.

Okay. Like that mattered. Okay. And then he took these new bylaws to the police and said, see, look, it's the bylaws. And they were like, I don't care about your stupid bylaws and you and your. Just because it says laws doesn't mean that it's law yeah you can't change it after he has it no get out of here so um he started developing all sorts of different shit here he got a thing he got a bunch of uh untraceable prepaid cell phones as

part of his plan and he's got plans to get this back um it's it's fucking interesting um now you got burners to get the car back. Yeah. Yeah. He's got a lot of plans. Also, he's aware that Edwin always has a gun on him at all times. So he, he had part of his plan to get the Passat back involved having his brother-in-law Romig, the Elizabeth's husband bring a crossbow along so that he could surprise Ed and disarm

him and get him to put his gun down with the crossbow this is what we're gonna do okay this is the plan all right he's got a now what should we get how about a crossbow well they already had a crossbow that's why it wasn't like they went out special and that was yeah they were like do you what do you have he's like i got a crossbow he's like perfect that looks crazy bring that crazy they, I got a crossbow. He's like, perfect. That looks crazy. Bring that crazy. They look fucking nuts. A crossbow is the same as if you bring like a samurai sword. Like what the fuck are you doing?

Jesus. Worse. Maybe definitely. Cause it can get you while you're running. Yeah. It's not great. So this is the plan so far. This is the,

what they're gathering. So October 29th, 2008, Ed, uh, is seen at 6 4545 p.m. when he leaves the Lifetime Fitness Center near his home. They were running a special, so he had to leave work early to take advantage of it. He was there for three hours getting a manicure, pedicure, and facial. Good for you.

Look at Ed. He is really indulging in his. He's like, I don't care. I'm going to do yoga, get a facial, fuck grandma and her burial plot. I don't give a shit. That is an enlightened motherfucker. Wow. Talk about moving on.

That is a hell of a day. That's impressive and also pretty sociopathic at the same time. I don't care that grandma has nowhere to get buried. They're running a special on facials and pedicures i gotta get down there i'm getting all 20 of these appendages taken care of and this face like dude if i it's one thing to steal from your brother and your sister and all that but if i stole my grandmother's burial plot money i would pay that back like that would be the thing like whatever money i make is before I get any facials, I'm getting a fucking grandma plot here because I can't have her just sitting out in the yard waiting to be put somewhere.

This is, you know, in the garage is not a good place for her. But James, Isha says that I can't get better unless I get, I got to feel better to get better. Yeah. I got to get these, I got to get these toes right first, and then I can feel better. How am I going to get her money back if my heels stick to the blankets like Velcro? That's a really, really good point. Yeah, that's a tough one.

That's a tough one because, yeah, I feel like these little snaggy hangnails on my fingers are really not going to do me well for that. So this day, that's what they see here. Around 7 p.m., a neighbor of him at Weltman's house there, a neighbor of Ed's, heard yelling in a loud thump that he likened to a basketball hitting someone in the stomach. Okay? Coming from the house, from where Ed lives. All right? Yeah. He shooed his kid inside and then listened for a little longer for more signs

of something but didn't hear anything else. So he thought maybe someone got hit with a basketball. What the fuck do I know? Fascinating. What a weird thing, yeah. How did he get there? Sounded like a basketball hitting someone in the stomach. How much is he... A what? He's a real dodgeball

enthusiast, this guy. He's like, I know, it's a different noise when it hits your shoulder. You know what I mean? I'm talking about a stomach. It's different. So that's gone. That happens. Later on that night, because that's the night of the 29th, so this morning, 2 a.m. that night, which is October 30th, calendar change here, a couple of deputies, Deputy Brian Pearson and Brett brett froelse uh frostly sorry we're in the

parking lot of the woodland creek golf course which is about a mile from where ed lives okay they now they're sitting there and they see elizabeth by the way what the fuck are they doing at two o'clock in the morning in the golf they're farting around yeah what are you doing these two are taking a little little break here A little breaky poo, I feel like. So, they see Elizabeth walk into the lot and just this woman walk up at 2 o'clock in the morning and walks up to the deputies

and tells them that she's having problems with the truck that she has parked there. My truck's fucked up. Can you help me with my truck? So, they're like, why are you here? And she said, oh, I'm working on a cancer benefit for a friend of mine and now my truck's broken down at 2 a.m at 2 a.m so a couple more questions and her story wasn't quite making sense like none of the things made sense where's your friend where are

you doing this who's what is this benefit nothing really made sense so they run her license just to see who she is and she's who's got maybe she's got warrants. Who knows? They find out that there is a restraining order against her, prohibiting her from being in the vicinity of Edwin's house, which is less than a mile away. Yeah. So they're like, OK, one of the deputies tries to go over to Ed's house and contact him to see if she was over there trying to bother him or anything. But on his way there, he's flagged down by someone else walking in the street. Okay.

It's Andy. People out at 2 a.m. Exactly. It's Andy in the street. And he's all freaked out saying he's having a bad diabetic reaction and he needs medical assistance right now. So he flagged them down like waving his arms so the deputy calls an ambulance and dry instead of going on to ed's house he turns and drives andy to back to that parking lot and uh he tells the cops that he's

in the neighborhood to repossess a car from his brother okay he's going to repossess the car um and during this too elizabeth said yeah yeah. She said, I'm here for the same purpose. She has the key to the Passat in her sock. She takes that out. So they keep saying, no, that's why we're here. That's why we're here. So they end up arresting Elizabeth for violation of a restraining order. Okay.

So she's the one that's on the restraining order? Both of them are. both Andy and Elizabeth. But now they bring the medical, an ambulance comes, and they work on Andy. They fix him up once his blood sugar's okay. He said him and his sister were looking for his brother, who is, by the way, a worthless piece of shit, he tells the cop, quote-unquote,

in case you were wondering. And he owes me a lot of money. He said in the process, he and Elizabeth got in a fight, and he took off and just started walking away. So he said, I never made it to Ed's house. So I don't know. I ended up fucking walking off because I was mad at her. So they had no grounds to hold Andy because she admitted she was by Ed's house,

so they had to arrest her. Andy, they had no grounds to hold Andy because she admitted she was by Ed's house. So they had to arrest her. Andy, they had no grounds. So about 5 a.m. after the paramedics are done with him, he drives off in the in the lawn truck, which doesn't have any problems at all. She does that. Now, they release Elizabeth later on that afternoon because it's just violating a restraining order. They release her. So they're like, this is so weird. That's strange now while this is happening

that morning okay while she's in jail while andy goes home to sleep this off another deputy an off-duty deputy who has no idea about anything that happened last night doesn't know about who these people are what their problems are he's just a guy driving. He drives past Ed's house. Okay. Where he lives with the Martin Weltman guy. He sees a wallet in the road, just driving. He pulls over,

picks up the wallet, looks in it. Uh, there was the wallet was there. And then the shit that was in the wallet was kind of littered all over the road or about 20 to 30 feet around it. Okay. So I don't know if it got hit by a car and shit went everywhere or if somebody scattered it, but doesn't know.

Yeah. There's some money in there. Mm-hmm. Business cards, a little girl's photograph. Oh. Then they realize, the officer realizes he's standing in front of the address that's on the driver's license. Oh. He's like, oh, maybe someone came out and dropped their wallet while they were putting their garbage cans back or something.

That makes sense. So he knocks on the door. The older guy, Martin Weltman, answers the door and he says, Ed's not home because he said, is this guy home in the license? He says no. So the deputy takes the wallet to a nearby sheriff's station, drops it off, says, here, this is here when somebody comes and gets it. Here's this guy's wallet I found.

Okay. Okay. So. Where he lives. For for safe but he doesn't know this guy so he doesn't know if this you know what his connection is with him so he he takes it there there's credit cards in it and stuff so he doesn't want to you know leave it there so um he uh as he's leaving though this deputy he notices there's a pool of blood in the driveway, which is, you know, not normal. But apparently it is normal because, my God, and again, you got to see Drop Dead Gorgeous because, oh, it's the start of deer season. So, yeah, people get shot in the head. It's the start of bow hunting season. So he just assumed this was a deer that got, you in the driveway, and it's probably from a deer.

He's like, half the driveway's around here. I have blood all over them right now. Fascinating conclusion. Wow. Yeah, he just shrugged and was like, oh, yeah, they must have got one. Good for them. Congrats. Good job.

Hey, can I get some venison when you're done? Okay. So I like to make jerky. So then early that afternoon, another deputy is dispatched to the house because someone else reported a large suspicious pool of blood in the driveway. Not the cop who was there. Some other neighbor reported it. All right. Now, when this guy gets there, another deputy, he sees a large pool of coagulated blood in weltman's driveway so they found they called it a quote critical amount meaning that this is like all the blood that

a body would have in it so a lot of blood yeah tons of blood so they said within the pool of blood was a key to ed's front door as well oh the key is just in the fucking blood and uh near that were a pair of pants that are edwin's size and also the uh the part of an arrow probably a deer they found so they're like well bow hunting yeah this is i'm sure yeah okay this makes sense the key doesn't make sense but that's fine so they speak to weltman they speak to weltman's daughter the elderly man and her to his daughter his roommates and they know while they're talking to them they notice blood smears on the house and smaller pools of blood along the sidewalk and in the landscaping like the wood chips for the landscaping there's a lot

of fucking blood around here so this is interesting um in addition to that there's an arrow stuck in the house which is not normal no probably weltman didn't know or hear no he's got nothing he's like 85 years old he just has no idea what's going on in there no way to explain all this blood and all these arrows he's like like, shit, that's weird. That's odd. Yeah, he doesn't know. So a guy arrives from the crime lab, and they notice a large pool of blood in the driveway, in addition to various blood spatters, drops, and wall stains near the driveway area. He said, though, it looks like something had been dragged from the landscaping chips into the adjacent driveway, and that someone had tried to clean up the scene with liquid. chips into the adjacent driveway and that someone had tried to clean up the scene with liquid.

And so they found also the tip of a hunting arrow in the driveway, a cell phone case with blood on it, a cell phone battery, a broken arrow, and a bottle of bleach in the yard. That's a lot. That's a lot of stuff. That's all a bunch of murdery stuff that you just found. Yeah. You just found. Wallets, batteries, phone cases.

There's so much. And all the blood. This is like Clue, basically, you just found. You just found a full game of Clue, and now you just decide who's going to be Mr. Mustard or Colonel Mustard, and you fucking get it on here. Mr. Plum? So apparently with an arrow in the front yard, it looks like, I would say. So they search his yard. They also find a baseball bat near the side of the home that had been spray painted black.

They find that. They also find a crossbow and arrows later on that we'll talk about that are also spray painted black. They spray painted black. In the yard, though, they find two small mall-type hammers in separate locations, also painted black, and a can of black spray paint. So that explains that. They also found, like I said, a crossbow, and they found latex gloves that were also spray painted black. Okay. I don't know why you'd spray paint gloves black, but you could just get the black ones. Why is everything spray painted? I don't know why you'd spray paint gloves black, but you could just get the black ones.

Why is everything spray painted? I don't know. They really want to paint it black. Fuck, man. So everything had DNA on them. I see the hammer and I want to paint it black. He wants to. I see a crossbow and I'll shoot you in the back um so the they found other shit around the property too the hammers like i said uh they

also found a three or four pound hammer that was found uh later on that we'll talk about here um so all sorts of shit going on we'll talk about um uh tons of shit so they found bloody clothes on the ground an arrow lodged in the side of the house crossbow baseball bat everything painted matte black along the driveway someone poured bleach on the concrete and a shitty attempt to clean it up um hammers all sorts of stuff so it's there's plenty to go on here and investigate plenty of physical evidence uh including a jug of bleach and all that kind of shit. So they go, let's try to find Edwin here because this isn't good. There's a lot of blood and we don't know where he is.

So they try to find him. They go to the home that Andrew lives with his grandmother in, and he's not there. So they go to Elizabeth's home in Minneapolis, and they speak to her about her husband who denied because Elizabeth isn't there. It's just her husband. He says, I don't know where my wife is. I don't know where my brother in law is. Either of them.

I don't know where Ed is. I don't know where Andy is. I don't know where Elizabeth is. I don't know shit. I'm sitting at home. I got wings tonight. Leave me the fuck alone. Yeah, I have no no part in any of this.

So not food food i'm watching the show that's been canceled for 10 years yeah yeah so there's a family farm about 200 miles away in cottonwood county that is owned by the family of christina dorandon who is the fiance of andy that's it's his current fiance so, well, that's a place we can look for them because we don't know where else to look. So that's still the same day, October 30th, 2008, 1120 p.m. The police chief of this place of Westbrook, Alan Wall, gets a call from the county sheriff's department asking if,

would you mind taking a ride out to this farm and just seeing if any of the hauses are out there and we'll take it we'll take ed elizabeth andrew whoever you got we're just real curious yeah so this guy drives to the farm where he finds uh that there is a huge bonfire burning in the distance and he finds andy in the driveway and he speaks to andy and uh they and the cop asks him do you have a permit for that giant fire oh you gotta have a permit for it and he said no i don't have a permit for the fire and i don't know what you're talking about here um so yeah he talks to him and he's like no no no permit at all so he said also this andy seemed very agitated and in reply to his question

he says i own the farm and i'm burning trash and he said i don't have a permit um they said his eye his weight shifted back and forth on his feet he seemed real you know like a kid who says he didn't break the lamp one of those no i was just doing you know hand in one pocket looking down like doing the liar shimmy. Yeah. He said he shifted his weight from foot to foot. His eyes trained on the ground was what the cop said. So couldn't describe a six year old who's guilty of something any more than that.

Right. The bonfire said, Jesus Christ, this fire is the bonfire. The sheriff said this bonfire is out of control. Like that's a it's just a big fire. He said that make sure he tells Andy, make sure you stick around the farm to make sure it doesn't spread and catch something else on fire. And he said,

the sheriff said, I'm going to go talk to the Cottonwood County sheriff about how to proceed about the permit. Maybe we can get you a permit if you're going to be out here doing this. So this takes a good place, a good distance from the fire. This is in the front of the house. The fire's in the back.

But he called Andy's appearance unsettled, nervous, edgy, and fidgety. So Wall, the sheriff, he leaves the farm and returns with a state trooper and a sheriff's deputy a little after midnight. So he pops up there. And as they make their way up the driveway, they can see this giant fire. It's about 10 feet across with flames 6 to 10 feet in the air. That's a big fucking fire. Still raging.

Yeah, 10 feet across. It's huge. When they arrive, they don't see Andy anywhere, but they do see a woman standing by the fire and it's Elizabeth, the sister. Andy's gone, but here she is standing next to the fire. And they said, where's Andy?

And she said, well, he's not here, but I'm his sister. I'm Elizabeth. And he, she said that the generator that they use for heat is about out of fuel. So they're trying to keep warm by the fire for as long as possible before going in and using the last little bit of fuel for that.

So, you know, and they said he wasn't she wasn't all fidgety. She was just they called her subdued. She just seemed like a lady who was standing next to a bonfire at two in the morning. This is not real. You know, nothing crazy about her as they're talking to her. They start noticing some things, though. are talking to her though they start noticing some things though they notice traces of blood around the fire like around the pit and also what appears to be things in the fire that kind of don't belong there okay so it's about 2 a.m and christina the fiance andy's fiance returns to the

farm in daniel romig elizabeth's husband's pickup They pull up. As they pull up and stop, the police observe, Jesus Christ, quote, blood running out of the pickup's tailgate. Oh, my. Which sounds disgusting, but it's bow hunting season, and half the pickups in Minnesota have blood pouring from their tailgates at this point. Covered in them, yeah. Constant. pouring from their tailgates at this point. Covered in them, yeah. Constant. So Wall, the sheriff, he takes a few more steps toward the fire,

and as he takes a step toward it, he notices what looks like bones in the fire. Yeah, that's the thing about body parts. They're very recognizable. You really have to, yeah, it takes a long time. If you're not expecting someone to come at 2 in the morning in the middle of this. So he walked around the fire to look at it from another angle and saw something that he first thought was a big rock and then he looked closer and realized oh it was an eye socket and a jawbone oh my god those are the most

recognizable so yeah it's not wow so he he didn't say anything he played it real casual as this was going on because he wanted to talk to her and he didn't want to tip her off to what was going on. So he's like, yeah, you know, I don't know what's going on. We're waiting on a permit. Love to talk to your brother. So he just steps back and he says, yeah, I waited for there's a fire truck coming because I couldn't get there's no permit. You got to have the fire out. So the state trooper that's there, he saw the same thing,

and he was quietly, there was some old pots lying around, and he was moving them with his foot over what looked like splotches on the ground, so he was moving over like blood there. Yeah, he's marking shit casually, just acting like he's kicking rocks around here. So then this trooper said

that there was a strange sizzling sound coming from the fire yeah and it was a sound that could be made by wet wood but there hadn't been any rain so they don't know why there would be that wet wood sizzle going on here so the officer pokes at the fire with a pitchfork okay and it's obvious now that you can see bones in there. I mean, anybody. Yeah. That's the thing about fire too. It lights things up. You can see real well. But you know, when you're standing around, you're hoping someone doesn't notice something and everybody notices it.

No one's saying anything about it. That's a moment there where they're all just like, well, there's a bunch of bones in this fire and they have badges on. And she's just like, yeah, um, she knows she has to say something here. It's about the moment is coming. So what she says is, quote, that's not a horse in there. Okay. Okay.

We were hoping it was, as a matter of fact. So, fuck. My answer to that is shit. We really wanted it to be. And they were like okay and then after a second there's a pause and she looks at them and says quote that's not my brother in there what pardon so the trooper said quote ma'am why would you say that yeah they they didn't know anything about this so they're like no you had a brother that's pretty weird um not the guy i was just talking to and

then she wouldn't answer she just goes i don't know and just stopped answering they're like we're taking you in somewhere this is this is weird if it's not a horse that's not your brother who the fuck is it what's going on it's not my brother. Who the fuck is it? What's going on? It's not my brother in there. I plead the fifth. I plead the fifth. I'm going to stop talking now. So the sheriff said later, quote, I didn't expect to find human remains. Here I am looking at a skull. Holy shit. So they tell the other county, Anoka County, get out here.

Yeah. Fucking, we got something. So they set out, and they were they're trying to figure out if it's ed in there um they douse the fire to preserve whatever evidence they can um so the fucking great part is when they talked to the fiancee the dorndon lady she said that uh she was looking for elizabeth when she came there because everyone's staying here at my farmhouse. And that's when they saw all the blood dripping. So they talked to Elizabeth.

She says the following during her when they talked to her. She didn't know where Ed was and she's not close to him. So I don't know anything about it. Just I don't know. I don't know where he was. He might have taken off. I'm not. We're not close.

So who knows where he went? They're like, listen, we know blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said, okay, fine. I was upset with him for embezzling from the family. What the fuck? So they said, well, what were you burning in that fire? She said, garbage. Yeah.

Garbage doesn't have a mandible usually. So I don't know about that. Garbage generally doesn't have a face. Yeah. It's less, less likely to so they said that uh they asked she told the cops that her and her brother went to ed's house to repossess a car and that she got arrested for violating a restraining officer she said she had only seen ed in court regarding the restraining order that's it and uh she said that uh she

and uh her brother saw the Passat in the driveway and they wanted to repossess it. She had no idea where Ed was. She didn't care for him, and she thought maybe he might have had a car accident and was possibly dead. Maybe. What makes you think that? I don't know.

That's what she said. Lucky guess. Holy shit. So this is fucking ridiculous, man. Holy shit. So this is ridiculous, man. So they talked to her multiple times within 24 hours that she's there. They talked to her a couple different times.

They called her, quote, evasive and very awkward. She said many times that she was an actress and showed me her Screen Actors Guild card. I thought she was acting i don't know that's what the cop said what the fuck difference does that make she brought her sag award i got my sag card okay great so you were in a fucking commercial once what do i care where's your brother why is his skull in your fire what's happening you fucking asshole pretend she's got everything happening i i wouldn't kill my brother look at me i'm a movie star i got a sag card i got a sag card wow now uh originally ed weighed 180 pounds his remains that they find in the fire are 42 pounds holy Holy shit. That is intense. That's fucking wild.

That's crazy. So the county authorities from back home here, they arrive at 7 a.m. And they said that Dorinden had told the officers that there were hunting guns there. So the SWAT team was brought in and all that kind of shit. And they busted in the house and found Andrew sleeping inside. He was there. He was there. He was there sleeping inside. Yeah.

So they brought him and his everybody into the obviously in there. They're going to charge Elizabeth and Andrew with aiding and abetting and murder and second degree murder there. Obviously, Romig said that Andrew showed up at his house in South Minneapolis and he said that he'd been in a struggle and had killed Edwin. And so Andrew told Roeming that he had repossessed the Passat. Oh. Okay. Now, the investigation, the medical examiner looks at Ed's remains, and they can tell what happened to him. Really?

It's tough. He had a through-and and through wound to his chest from an arrow wow not close all the way through that's close that's a close shot that's not from a distance that's real close um and he said he built the fire with elizabeth's help dumped his brother's body in there he said all the way through all the way through this is not more happened than that though um he said said andy said that ed had driven him crazy and he couldn't take it anymore so he said that um apparently they figured out ed was shot from behind with a crossbow beaten with hammers and baseball bats then run over with the passat as well with what

with the passat yes they made sure to run him over this i mean this is very personal they beat him shot him and then andy said you like your fucking passat so much and ran him over several times with it so my yep uh they're reassembling the bones, trying to put a body back together here. And they said that it was multiple blunt force trauma in addition to all this. Direct impact injuries that were inflicted before the body was placed in the fire. His left eye orbit was fractured on all sides. Oh, God. From being hit with either a bat or a hammer.

His upper jaw was horizontally fractured where it met his teeth. The part of his body connecting his spinal cord to his brain was crushed wow and there was a wedge-shaped fracture to his right humerus caused by a significant amount of force and there was multiple fractures to his ribs and pelvic area they think that's from being run over so this is they fucking put ed through it um the person who performed the autopsy here concluded that he suffered bleeding in the brain that was caused by his head striking something and noted injuries to his chest that were consistent with his chest having been pierced by a broadhead arrow which had passed through from the back through his lung by the way into through the front um she concluded it was his death was due to homicidal violence in the most obvious ruling ever nice work either that or he's nordberg one of the two one of the two the only thing the worst luck

fucking unreal so they showed the investigation that uh they thought it was an arrow from a crossbow, beaten, bludgeoned. Internal injuries were consistent with being run over by a car before being incinerated. They pieced DNA and physical evidence together and all the interviews and everything here. And they find that his body had been in the lawn service truck when the officers found it at the golf course and talked to the two of them oh those two talked their way out of that shit while they had a body in the fucking truck how did they do that without getting enough blood on them for cops to recognize it that's what i'm saying well elizabeth wasn't involved and andy had changed his clothes and then

rather than have the cops go there he didn't want them to go to the house so that's why he was like oh god the diabetes oh jesus i'm falling down he did that shit and these cops are i don't know if they're just it's kind of a small town force and they're cops hanging out on the golf course at two a yeah that's what i mean they're sitting there like oh christ let's see what's going on with this guy so um they found all of that. They found out, too, that they had all discussed repossessing the Passat and all that kind of shit. And they said that that which the police believed in all their communications, repossessing the Passat was code for killing Andy or killing Ed. or killing Ed. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts.

I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor.

I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to

cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus and the wondery app or on apple podcasts the uh they talked to the brother-in-law romig and he said he tells the cops you'll find the car the passat is at a church parking lot in Golden Valley. And it is there.

They find blood on the car inside and out. They said it looked like a body had been dragged by the car. Yeah. They ambushed him getting in or out of his vehicle, didn't they? Yeah. When he came home, they popped out of the bushes. They had everything painted in black. They popped out of the bushes. had everything painted in black they popped out of the bushes they said you're ready to get in the house also

in the trunk a sledgehammer covered in blood oh jesus they said the amount uh the the one cop said the amount of violence to your own flesh and blood in this situation it's still breathtaking even years later so what actually happened here um andy says that uh he drove with his girlfriend to martin weltman's house when they arrived andy said he got out of the car and his girlfriend drove away she just dropped him off roaming suit arrived is his story is that his brother-in-law roaming arrived thereafter with the crossbow so uh andy and roaming then waited until ed arrived home in the passat and parked in front of the garage according to andy upon arriving home instead of walking toward the front door edmund edwin walked toward a garbage can

where roaming was hiding right there oh boy so they they called as kind of yeah they were fucked he had to throw something out so ed looked like he was reaching for Roemig and then stumbled back screaming, oh, my God, oh, my God. That's because Roemig shot him. He says Roemig shot him with the crossbow as he went over to, you know, get something, put something in the garbage. He didn't see or hear the crossbow being fired, Andy says, before Ed began stumbling backwards. Andy says, before Ed began stumbling backwards. He did see Roemig then punch Ed in the head, bounce Ed's head against the house, and roll around fighting with him. Well, he's got an arrow through his fucking chest like Steve Martin in the 70s. So with his head, he said, well, this is going on that Andy got into the driver's seat of the Passat.

Okay. Victory, finally. Yeah. At some point, he said, Roeming opened the trunk and asked Andy to help him put Ed's body inside. Andy said he refused and drove the Passat a few feet forward,

then put it in reverse and took off. Okay. He said he heard, quote, a few thumps as he backed up. Yeah. He didn't know what was happening, but he later realized he must have ran over Ed. So he then said he saw Romig throw Edwin over his shoulder and run into the woods. Oh, like a fireman saving him.

Like, okay, he's a 180-pound man. Yeah. To throw him over your shoulder and run? That's not easy. You've got to do that an awful lot in your daily life because that is not easy to do at all. Romig's a strong fella. She just tossed him over and carried him into the woods,

ran into the woods, not even walked, ran. Anyway, Andy said he left the scene and drove to the lawn service where he met Romig, and from there they abandoned the Passat and eventually drove to Romig and Elizabeth's house. There, Elizabeth and Andy then drove the lawn service truck back to the neighborhood to retrieve the crossbow and attempt to clean the scene. To clean the scene, they brought bottles of bleach and latex gloves. They parked the truck at the golf course, which was about a mile from the house.

they parked the truck at the golf course, which was about a mile from the house. And he walked to the house, tried to clean the blood with bleach, but retrieved the crossbow and arrows and began walking back to the truck. And then he saw police cars. After he saw the police cars, he threw the bottles of bleach and the crossbow into the woods and started walking toward the parking lot.

He said that he insists that he did begin to feel symptoms of low blood sugar and flagged down the cars as they approached. They called an ambulance, and then that was that. So that's his story. He said the following day there, they all drove the pickup truck, Romig's truck, with Edwin's body in the bed to the farm property near Westbrook, Minnesota. When they arrived, he started a fire and put the body in it. So that's his story. The whole body.

Yeah, I did none of the killing. That was all Roemig, but I got rid of the body. I accidentally ran him over, but that's it. You know how that goes. Now, the Volkswagen, the evidence, the fine evidence here, blood was discovered on the rocker panel, the right headlight, the front passenger door, the left rear bumper, and the left rear quarter panel, the bottom rear of the driver's door, and the bottom of the car.

That's outside the car. Like you ran over a body. Like you thumped over a body a few times. Hair and blood were found on the left front wheel, which isn't normal. No. There was a three or four pound hammer that was brand new and covered with blood in the trunk. Brand new. Stickers all the trunk. Brand new stickers.

Brand new. Yeah. Just covered in blood though. That's that doesn't come stock. You have to put that on yourself. Uh, they break them in like camouflage, but not bloody.

I don't think there's also a loaded pistol in a case on the floor in the back seat. That's Ed's. Oh, it's his gun that he keeps in his car to keep from this happening. So, um, they search his truck, Romig's pickup truck,

and they uncover two plastic jugs containing bleach as well as three latex gloves in the truck bed that had traces of blood on them. Also, a bloody tennis shoe with a portion of an arrow sticking out of it. What? A shoe and a stream of blood that ran the length of the truck bed.

A search of the lawn service truck uncovered traces of blood, but they were not able to determine the source of the blood or how long it had been there. They cleaned it out better. So a search of Andy's home, they found latex gloves that appeared to have deposits of spray paint on them and white paper that appeared to serve as a backdrop for spray painting in the area of the garage. For the overspray. For the overspray.

Now they have phone records, too. Phone records involving two prepaid cell phones, Hawes' home phone, Elizabeth's home phone, as well as the cell phones of Andy, Elizabeth, Christina, and Daniel. Both siblings and their fiancés and fucking spouses. The prepaid phones were purchased at a convenience store near Andy's home. The records indicate on October 29th there was a number of calls made between one of the prepaid phones and the phone number associated with Elizabeth Hawes.

Records also indicate that about 5 p.m. on October 29th, Andy's cell phone was in close proximity to a gym where Edwin was present. So he was stalking him. He was stalking him. Found him there. So they have all of that to connect it. DNA evidence. The DNA results of various

latex gloves found there. On one set of gloves, the exterior blood samples matched Ed's and the inside DNA sample matched ed's and the inside dna sample match elizabeth so she's wearing the gloves on the other pair the blood matches ed's on the outside inside matches andy's uh-oh blood on the hammer found in the trunk of the passat uh there also and blood on andy and elizabeth's shoes all match Edwin. Not good. Here's a weird thing.

Once they get everything out, they reassemble the body, they look, and literally this is from a report, quote, a human body wouldn't have two jaw bones and two left eye sockets and three fibulas. Oh, no. So we have extra bones in this fire. Who is it? There's extra fucking bones. They said that they consulted with a biological anthropologist, an archaeologist, and confirmed a minimum of two partial human bodies are present in the fire pit. Oh, no.

Bone fragment found in the pit were too small for DNA testing. Also, fabric and hair were found during the search as well that didn't belong to Ed. So, yeah. That ruins their whole argument that he made them insane. You know what I'm saying? There's more fucking bodies out here. So they said that three extra bones mixed to the fire pit were a left eye orbit, a fibula, and part of a lower jaw. That's what they found there that do not belong to Ed.

So they said they don't even know who it is. So they couldn't label it a homicide or suspicious death because they don't even know who we're talking about. How long they've been there. Who knows. They said it obviously sounds suspicious, but we want to make sure we have the info before we make a call. That makes sense. Yeah. So they're going to have to do DNA testing and see if they can match it to anybody

now january of 2010 elizabeth goes to trial here oh boy yeah she's in a lot of trouble she can't say she left no this is her dna she touched the body there's blood on her for christ's sake she touched the body yeah at some point yeah, there's no doubt about that. So during her trial, January 2010, her mom's going to testify. Mom is going to say she's just a wonderfully young lady and she had nothing to do with it, I'm sure. She said outside the courtroom, she said, I love all my children, but she blamed everything on her, quote, lost oldest son, the dead one, whom she called a sociopath to the media. She called her dead son a sociopath. Yeah, that's nice.

So and here's children. Was she talking about the soap opera? Except for that one. And also Stephanie, because I never mentioned her. So I don't know. So from the Star Tribune newspaper, the big headline is, Mother Stands By Accused Daughter, Calls Her A Healer.

What? Oh, yeah. She said that Elizabeth, quote, only that, quote, Elizabeth knows how I feel about her. She said she's a good girl. She's a healer. She's a compassionate person, Elizabeth.

She was just healing him. That's just healing him up i mean he was cold put him in the fire so uh she testifies on her own behalf and she says that she knew that ed ed's body was in her husband's truck when she rode with them to the farm she said it was andrew who dragged edwin into the fire pit. So, you know, she just knew she said, I didn't do anything. I just knew it was going on. I was just there, which isn't totally true. The prosecutor in their closing said the defense wants you to believe she was a passive participant,

but she knew there would be a cover up. Yeah. Yeah. She was there when it was happening. When Elizabeth and Andrew didn't get justice the way they wanted, they took the law into their own hands. That's what they said here. So that's pretty fair, I would say.

Now, her whole defense is she was not present at the time of the murder, testifies on her own behalf, saying that exactly like I said. She also says that Andrew built the fire and that, quote, he slid something out of the truck that looked like. Yeah. She is a fucking party she says it looked like my brother wrapped in a brown fuzzy blanket i bet it was your brother wrapped in a brown fuzzy blanket just a thought especially since everyone just killed him i'm gonna think maybe it was. Then she says this. This is the fucking greatest quote. This every one of our people should ask this question. I kept thinking to myself, how could this get any worse? Why am I in the middle of a Stephen King story? Why isn't my life normal? That's the greatest line anyone has ever said in a small town murder that sums it all up. Why is my life normal? Why? Why am I standing? I'm a 40-year-old woman.

I shouldn't be standing outside at 2 a.m. watching my brother be thrown into a fucking bonfire while I drink Boone's Farm like a 15-year-old. This is ridiculous. Why am I 200 miles from home? why am i in the middle of the stephen king story why isn't my life normal i got that is for you honey your whole family's not normal wow yeah this is we've gone way past why isn't my life normal you're why is your grand why can't your grandma die she's she financially can't die no we keep her alive she's she knows better than to die she she can't afford to die this woman once one sunday she said i'm going i feel it and we said fuck that grandma you're not allowed

buck up you're a hundred and you can't afford to. We just gave her some sugar and she seemed to be coming right back around. So she is, the verdict comes in, she's guilty of first degree murder, aiding and abetting murder, doing all that kind of shit. 12 hours of deliberation for this, by the way, it took. Guilty of not having a normal life. Yeah. Guilty of aiding and abetting first degree murder carries as we'll talk about her sentence here she shows no emotion um her attorney said quote i couldn't be more disappointed

with the verdict i take i take a full responsibility for it oh this is what her brother said after she is found guilty um here her brother puts out a statement that says i take full responsibility for it she had nothing to do with this murder um you know she loved her brother that's what it says so um sentencing comes around you ma'am may fuck off life with no parole. Wow. Mandatory. The whole thing. Mandatory sentence. It's over. Couldn't even have a chance. Now, April 30, 2010, Andrew's trial is going to start. He wants a public defender, and he has public defenders, but then they're in court battling for a lower bail amount, and they notice that he has money and could pay for a lawyer so they're taking his

public defenders away they said you own the land in rural westbrook here at 76 000 so you could sell that and use that money for your lawyer oh boy so they dismiss his lawyers who had to leave the courtroom in the beginning of the hearing he'll get a pay lawyer goodbye so yeah you got so you go pay for one so he was left to stand there by himself um trying to talk and he said he was adamant that his assets were frozen and that he couldn't afford an attorney um but they said that he needs to make efforts to sell the land and added additional property records show that he's the co-owner of a robinsdale home with his grandmother who she still fucking lives in she's gonna kick her out of it and sell it grandma i know you don't have a grave or anything but now you don't have a house either let's go of a Robbinsdale home with his grandmother, who she still fucking lives in. She's going to kick her out of it and sell it.

Grandma! I know you don't have a grave or anything, but now you don't have a house either. Let's go. Come on, Grandma. Move your ass here. I know you've lived here since 1923, but come on. And there's a mortgage on this motherfucker where all the money's gone.

Jesus, it's worth $187,000. He countered that he's only a trustee on the home, but I can't sell it out from under my 100-year-old grandmother. So the judge said, you've got a significant asset here, and based on what you did disclose, you're looking at charges of perjury. In other words, he lied about what he had. He said that may look like small change compared to the charges you're facing, but these are very serious. So Andy asked the judge how he could prove that the – how can I prove that I can't do anything with that house? And he said – the judge said, I'm going to need some time to figure this out.

And he said – and Andy said, I don't have a chance at all. I don't have a penny to my name. And then the judge says, well, I'm not going to give you legal advice, Mr. Hawes. All I can say is as of yesterday, you are the owner. So he's like, but I can't do anything with it. Fuck. So his trial comes around. Public defenders are defending him because they come back yeah he has to he doesn't have any money he says that he had absolutely nothing to do with the events leading to his brother-in-law's

death oh that's what romig said at the grand jury okay he says that because andy's main thing we told you his story is roaming did everything. Right. All I did was try to run away and accidentally run over him. That's what he says. So, yeah, it's that's the thing in the opening. Jesus Christ, man. He's smiling, by the way. He sits there smiling during the opening arguments like he looks like getting my day in court type of thing. Like I'm an OK guy. Look at me. I'm smiling. Here we go with my justification of this. One of his attorneys said, Andrew grew up admiring his brother, called him a hero in

his school essay. And then he finds a second set of books that he's been robbing him blind. Oh, my God. He said, the lawyer said, where was all the money? This is a story of money, loss, and anger. What the defense attorney says they said they tried they went to the cops and no they wouldn't help nobody would help damn it this is ridiculous so the public defender said it's all that guy that was pretty much their whole opening

that daniel romig him he fucking did it dude sucks yeah not me um the uh roaming was granted immunity when he testified before a grand jury but he's not going to be called to testify in the trial immunity he did a lot he did plenty to get immunity that's wild um that's that's something holy because he has immunity and he's whole court strategy is, I was just barely there. It's all Daniel Roeming. He did everything. And then they won't let him testify because of all the shit he did do, the fucking defense attorney would have a field day with Roeming on the stand. I mean, they would forget about it.

So Andrew testifies himself because he kind of has to. He said that it was a quote cat and mouse game that's that got out of control here he said that uh it reached a boiling point he said quote i didn't intend to kill him i didn't intend to run him over and then at some point though he said i wanted him to suffer this is all during the same testimony so yeah uh at one point too he said that it was roaming whoing who confronted Ed. And, you know, when they tangled, shot him with a crossbow, then beat him up with his fists. He also said he never said he feels bad that he's dead or anything like that.

He said, quote, I'm still angry now at fucking Ed. He said it was all just him trying to repossess the Passat. He said they went to Ed's house, they laid in wait. When he pulled in the driveway, it just got out of control. And he said while he was watching his brother-in-law kill his brother,

and he said, quote, I was like, this is a dream come true. That's not what you want to say. He said it was a, at first he thought the plan was working and then he realized it was an arrow in his brother and he goes oh wait this is bad okay never mind while we're hiding and there's a crossbow and hammers and gloves this is a dream come true he said i'm like over gleed over gleed i've never heard that one before i'm over gleed that i could just hop in the car and

take off. And then all of a sudden there's a struggle going on. So everything was great until that. He said it was dark, but Andy's, he said the headlights from the Passat that were still on, framed Roemig advancing on Ed. So he set it up cinematically on the stand. He said, quote, like I had a front row view of the whole thing. Ed staggered backwards, then took a hold of Roeming. Then the two fell out of sight into the shadows. This is like a screenplay

that says, Andy threw the Passat into drive, then into reverse and as he tried to leave, he heard a thud. He backed over Ed's body. Quote, it wasn't really registering. Like when I went padumpadump, I didn't know it was my brother. He said pa-doom-pa-doom in court. Right.

He's already made his story fucking impossible. Now he's adding sound effects. And he's narrating it with sound effects of pa-doom-pa-doom. Pa-doom-pa-doom. Pa-doom-pa-doom. I didn't know it was my brother. I was just trying to leave. He said he didn't stop, and as he drove away, he saw Romig carrying Ed's body into the woods across the street.

By the time he testifies, now it's dragging him into the woods, not tossed him over his shoulder like a sack of potato and fucking ran him over there, doing like a 4-5-40 over across the street with a 180-pound man on his back. You can't run over a man backing over him by backing over somebody in front of your car. He said they went down in the headlights. You can't back over somebody like that. Yeah.

Well, they went down, but then it got – that's why he didn't know he was there. They must have rolled around back there. You know how scuffles are. They roll around in front of cars, behind cars. Yeah. Well, they went down, but then it got, that's why he didn't know he was there. They must have rolled around back there. You know how scuffles are. They roll around in front of cars, behind cars. Quote, unquote, padumpadump is my favorite thing ever said in court. I got to say that. Description of running over your brother. That and why isn't my life normal.

That's the other one. Well, it's because your brother says, pa-doom-pa-doom in description of running over your other brother. While running over your other brother. He said, though, the witnesses obviously said he was shot from behind, which completely contradicts the story of he leaned over and shot him in the chest. They fucking got him from behind. Also, experts say that he was bludgeoned with a mallet found in the chest they they fucking got him from behind also experts say that he was

bludgeoned with a mallet found in the trunk as well the sledgehammer was part of it as well um yeah so the judge ruled also that they would not allow the grand jury testimony given by romig to be heard in the trial so romig is just basically his his shit isn't there the only thing that we have of romig is Andy's blaming him for everything. He's the luckiest man on the planet. Yeah, he got immunity and doesn't even have to testify. Maybe he should have been the one day trading. He's got amazing luck.

No shit. Fuck. He really angles himself well here. So the closing, the defense attorney said, these brothers were so much alike they were so stubborn and nobody was going to give in well the jury doesn't give in either um they find him guilty of first degree murder aiding and abetting as well so um his attorney said this is crazy he said quote he said he wasn't expecting that at all i'm sure really wow you had to be expecting it i'm sure you were hoping otherwise he said he expected the jury to convict him of being an accomplice

after the fact because he obviously drug him onto the fire but not murder this is crazy so his story doesn't match the evidence it's weird isn't it yeah you think they would believe him over the experts i would imagine he's very surprised they didn't. So they find him at sentencing. You, sir, may fuck off. Life in prison, no parole as well. So he's fucked. His girlfriend, Dronenden there, all charges dropped on her.

What the fuck is happening? They drop all charges. They say that she was charged with aiding and abetting murder in the first degree, but her involvement or knowledge in the killings wasn't made clear at either trial, they said. So they don't really know anything. The assistant county attorney said, we couldn't go forward with the case as charged. We just don't have the evidence. Nobody was real anxious to tell on her about shit. And she didn't say nothing.

So they just don't know what she did. So they didn't know how to charge her. Holy. There's got to be a being there while we're burning a fucking body and you knew about it. What's that charge? There's got to be a charge of drop man off, pick man up, now we have a body. Seems like conspiracy to be involved in shit, right? She's certainly aware, right?

That's hardcore. conspiracy to be involved in shit. She's certainly aware, right? That's hardcore. No, you're just going to, well, he could have told, he probably told the cops that he told her he was just repossessing the Passat, drop me off, I'm going to grab the car and I'll follow you home. He could have told her that. If nobody wanted to burn her, she could easily get away with it if no one wants to put her

there. But the cops showed up while she was there with a body burning. That's a charge of some kind. She pulled up in a truck with the blood dripping out of it. With blood pouring from the tailgate, and it's the vehicle they use. So there's got to be something there. She knows nothing. Absolutely.

This is fucking wild. So 2003, Andrew appeals this decision. First of all, ineffective assistance of counsel, he said. Because there was a thing where he. 2013, you mean? 2013. Did I say three? Yeah.

Yeah, sorry, 2013. He said his attorneys were ineffective when they failed to object on hearsay and confrontation clause grounds to the testimony of an officer regarding the incident when he rammed his brother with the truck in the car when they were in Minneapolis. OK. He said Hawes attorney objected to the admission of that evidence, arguing it was cumulative and that any probative value was outweighed by the risk of unfair prejudice. However, they did not object to on hearsay or confrontation clause grounds. So obviously I should go home now now clearly that alone negates all this i think right we'll just wipe our hands of this well you apologize i apologize we'll say you know neither of us are perfect and we'll walk away from this right that's cool uh no that's a you're fucking denied get your ass back in jail stupid so making that mistake is the equivalent

of burning uh your your brother's body after you murdered no shit god stephanie became an only child quick sure in the fuck from four to one hi she became the beneficiary of nothing fast nothing yeah so 2018 we have portions of Elizabeth's prison diary. Oh, boy. Which is hilarious because she said the funniest shit by far in a long time. How many times did she ask why her life isn't normal in this? Why isn't my life normal?

So let's just read some. Great. Want to read what it's like to be in Minnesota women's prison? Here we go. June 18th, 2017, 7.02 a.m. This is our first entry that we have. Second day working at the gym in Minnesota's only state prison for women. I work out of what used to be a small 8x12 cement-tiled storage room.

It contains four large bouncy balls, 90 workout videos from the mid-90s, hand weights, yoga mats, and a lot of cleaning supplies. That's not a good day. No. My coworkers are, and she goes through it, Martin, a transgender man who will be free in November and will be sent back to Mexico even though he has lived in Minneapolis all but the first two years of his life. Smokey, a woman with an eating and exercise disorder. And Ava, a woman with a personality disorder who will be leaving in October to finish out her time in a federal prison. Somebody make that TV show tomorrow. Thank you for being a friend.

Travel down the road back again. Oh, God, I will watch that. The thought is true. Working in a prison gym. Martin is a card. If you got incarcerated in jail for the rest of your life. This is so much better than Orange is the New Black. I would work in the gym with you. What the fuck is happening?

Susan Powder videos every day. Every day, just fucking Jane Fonda pushing 45, doing her buns of steel shit. I want that TV show. She's good at this. She set it up nice. Oh, my God. This is wild. Yeah, she just said it's a, well, she's an actor.

Remember? Yeah. She said, quote, the first two coworkers, Martin and Smokey, love each other. Actually, it's more complicated than that. They love slash hate each other. Their relationship involves a lot of swearing and jealous glances. All three work out constantly. I often ask myself, what am I learning or bearing witness to by being in the place I am situated?

What is in front of me and why? I frequently have no answers to my questions. Because there are none, stupid. That's why. It's going to be very confusing in there. That's what's going to happen. I think about safety versus freedom. We're frequently told we're here for our own safety.

For a certain percent of the population, that's probably true, especially for people suffering from addiction. Personally, while I object to drugs or drinking if someone is impaired behind a wheel and it could hurt others, I think that adults should have the right to do whatever they want in their own homes. My guess is that 95% of the prison population would choose freedom over just about anything. Well, yeah, when you're in prison, that's a... It's probably not good in there. I bet 95% of the people on deserted islands would take food over anything, probably. Anything. It's probably why everybody in there is appealing to try to get the fuck out.

Yeah, I don't think people want to be there. June 22, 2017, 1 p.m. Martin and Smokey are fighting. See, this is a sitcom. Smokey tells me that she has food issues, bulimia in parentheses, and since she was 12, has five tattoos and only shampoos once a week. She also says that her hair smells like feet. Maybe it's because you're not shampooing it yeah maybe you should shampoo throw another one in there let's try twice maybe do it every three

four days i know some women don't shampoo all the time they have dry shampoo they do and all sorts of weird shit i don't know you guys are i don't understand what's going on but maybe that's like feet if i woke up tomorrow and i was a woman i would have no idea what to do i would have no idea i'd just be a fucking mess i'd have no idea what to do. I would have no idea. I'd just be a fucking mess. I don't know what any of this stuff means. I don't know what's going on. There's weird commercials for stuff.

Does this work? Do I want panties that I can just have my period in straight into them? Do I want those? I've seen commercials for them. I think I can poop in those. That seems easy. Every four inches of me smells different. I don't know what's happening.

Yeah, all sorts of different shit. My under boob is different from my upper boob. My feet smell like hair. My hair smells like feet. What's happening? I don't know what's happening here. Shit's fucked up. So she says, I keep my distance. I spoke with a staff member here once about addictions.

She said that she felt an eating disorder was the most difficult to contend with because you couldn't just avoid food like drug or alcohol. Everybody has to eat. July 17th, 2017, 4.15 p.m. One of the perks of working in the gym is that we get paid to work out. I elliptical next to a, how the fuck do you say that? I don't know. H-M-O-N-G. H-M-O-N-G. H-M-O-N-G.

It's a sect of person from an area of China. I know that. I just don't know how to say it. Anyway. I'm incredibly uncultured. Yeah. Well. So is Minneapolis, but this part of it they have.

I know they have this. I've lived in Colorado and Arizona. There are zero culture in either. Well, there's Spanish culture. Yeah. Arizona's all Mexican. It's so easy, though. Everything's in Spanish.

It's so easy. Yeah. Well, yeah, you're from the Southwest, so you understand. Chinese stuff seems like way, I don't know anything about that. It's the other side of the planet. Yeah. Who the fuck knows? I know if you dig far enough, you'll get there.

That's all I know. That's what I've heard. She is in fantastic shape and always plays a competitive game of volleyball, basketball, and, when it's offered, softball. She's 4'10 and 59 years old. No arthritis, super limber, runs five miles at a pop. I don't have the knees or the will. I'm not Hmong or however you say it. Tough.

My friend survived in the jungle for a year with no food. She and her husband ate bark and leaves. What? Wow. When her body stopped producing milk, she watched as her baby starved and died. Jesus. My friend survived in a Thailand refugee camp with six small children for 10 years. When I hear about her past, I understand how easy a sport like volleyball must be after surviving a war

in Laos. Yeah. Um, July 30th, 2017, 1215 PM. I mopped the gym floor. This involves,

okay. One sweeping the floor with a large flat dust mop. I'm always amazed by the amount of lint I sweep up. Every day, the lint pile is the size of a Norwich Terrier. A grayish-purple fuzzy Norwich Terrier. The air vents above the gym are large, about a yardstick wide, and I would be scared to see how much lint is amassed inside them to know what I am breathing in all day.

Two. Filling a wet mop bucket in the hallway closet and rolling it back to the gym. Three. Putting up a yellow plastic sign that reads danger wet floor yeah okay four mopping around women who are following along to exercise tapes at one end of the gym and around smoky who's pounding out the insanity tape there you go yeah susan powder by herself in the middle of the room emptying the dirty water in the hallway closet and rolling the empty bucket back into the gym i can spend the middle of the room, emptying the dirty water in the hallway closet and rolling the empty bucket back into the gym.

I can spend the rest of the afternoon talking to Martin. I have gay friends coming out from all directions, but I have never had a trans friend. Can I ask you something? Sure. This is the conversation. Do you have to go to Mexico when you're released? Yes, but I'm fighting it.

I haven't been in Mexico since I was two. It's not my home. I'm from Bloomington. She said, do you even know anybody there? She said, my parents live there now in a small town close to the border. And they said, do you know they know you as Martin? And she said, I said, yeah, they've always known, always supported me. My family loves me for me. So she said, was nice she was happy about that um she said that i used to cry when i had to wear oh this is oh no this is the killing thing okay here we go uh some of uh i'm glad some of my gay friends have had very stressful coming out experiences most waited till their early 20s and told their mothers first saying they had something really important to tell

them and they were all like i thought you killed somebody jesus christ you made a big deal out of it yeah so um let's see uh august 2nd 2017 smoky or 709 am smoky has obviously been tanning and is now the color of stained wood how by tanning i mean prison tanning i.e wearing gray shorts and tees with socks rolled into your shoes sitting on cement benches smearing oil-based hair products on your skin and baking oh my god yeah why for what why would you do that um she came to the gym to work out to an insanity tape which she did for about two and a half hours talk Talk to the new gym supervisor. That's a lot. About theater in Minneapolis. We discover that she's a fan of the traditional music.

I'm a fan of improv and accordion music. Oh, Jesus, Elizabeth. Holy crap. August 12, 2017, 12.09 p.m. I work with Ava, who, as we told Fold Rags, tells me that she also has an eating disorder and gender issues. She tells me she's also has an eating disorder and gender issues. She tells me she's working on a letter for the parole board. I tell her that I helped another woman write a successful letter last spring and would help if she likes.

She would. So she wants to help people write letters. OK, August 24th, 2017, 846 a.m. August 24th, 2017, 8.46 a.m. Smokey, with her walnut-colored skin, tells me that she likes the egg salad at the chow hall because it gives her diarrhea. I've been waiting the whole episode to read that line to you people. She likes the egg salad because it gives her diarrhea. It's my favorite.

Wow. Is that why you like egg salad, too? Because it'll clear you out in a fucking... That's exactly why I won't eat eggs. Yep. She tells me that women here don't like her because she's so good looking. I don't say anything. Wow.

She's hot and just shoveling egg salad in her face and shit's everywhere? Yeah, I'm shitting my brains out and these women don't fucking like it because i'm hot you know i'm too hot for it they're jealous they're jealous of my hot fucking weird fucking cleaning supply tan and firing egg salad out of shooting it like a cannon like a fucking super soaker wow um uh september 27 2017 409 pm work is canceled but i still have to take photos in the visiting room to get pictures people buy service ticket tickets from canteen for 50 cents a piece or visitors can buy them in the lobby for a buck we offer two scenic backdrops one is an abstract of red and pink splattered paint the other features a childlike drawing

of a tree sun and clouds people can also opt for the cement brick wall we see a lot of these pictures on love after lockup all the ones of them together that's them and that picture yeah the the the scenic outdoor one too. You've seen those for sure. We've all seen it. All the prisons have a background. I sit in a small glass encased room until the visitors get acclimated to their person.

I usually give them about 15 minutes together. Sometimes I wait longer if a conversation seems intense or emotional. I like to give people their space. But it's a controlled visit with a guard in the room, and we can't make contact with the visitors except a brief hug and a kiss on the cheek. We have to sit facing the guard and can't get up from our chairs. Parents and lovers and children and religious volunteers are the regulars,

the people that show up no matter what, 4 o'clock Wednesdays, 6 o'clock Fridays, early morning Sundays. It is here that we talk and laugh and love without touching. No touching. Picture fucking. Yeah. Arrested development. We sit two feet apart across from the visitors unless they are a kid.

If you're a kid, you can sit next to your mom. Before I snap my photos, I give a speech. Please take off your badges. Please do not touch. Please face speech. Please take off your badges. Please do not touch. Please face forward. Please, uh, please no hands on hips. Then I give my big line. Please give me a smile.

Jesus. That sounds great. Here's the card. Wow. After the pictures are taken, I go back to my small glass room by the door and I'm forgotten, but I see what no one else sees. The faces as they leave as they turn away from the women they uh woman they love and are now leaving prison i see

the weight or the suffering just beneath their eyes i try to keep it together they'll often turn and give a final hang in their way before they go out the door yeah okay um let's see here. Where are we here? Um, uh, uh, February 24th, 2018 to 25 PM. I hear that Ava had a success with the parole board and is back home. I don't know who the fuck that is. Um, I think about Martin. Um, uh, who is that? I'm excited to be released from prison to be free. The rest we will have to see.

Um, so then in 2021, she writes some shit and it's published in harper's bazaar here june 8th 19 or 2021 the window in my cell where two fat robins hop upon sparse faces north mid-may patches of the newly seeded grass line the sidewalk along my visiting or my living unit. The birds are oblivious that they are set up, set up shop in a prison. They are free to fly over the fence. Oh boy. It's putting a fucking bird in a metaphor for the prayer. That's yeah.

That's never been done before. You're clever, Elizabeth. That's not hacky at all. They came over the fence and have no idea. Fuck Jesus. The past year, the world learned about freedom because COVID-19 and subsequent lockdowns stripped people of their own.

Everyone's ability to do what they wanted was curbed. I was stunned that so many people on TV were talking about how isolated they felt and how this isolation was damaging their mental and physical health. They often talked about how bored they were. Most people were with their families in their homes and had 24-hour access to phones, computers, cars, food delivery, Netflix, books, games, their pets, and nature. Most people didn't murder their fucking brother either. That's a big difference.

Huge difference. You got to understand, we still likened that to prison because it was still imprisonment in our own homes. Yeah, we weren't doing what we wanted to do. Right. Most people could walk barefoot around the house or on their freshly mowed grass, listen to music without wearing headphones, drink a cold soda and use metal flatware. Most people could make a snow or sand angel, eat guacamole, light a candle and take a bath. Most people could wear their wedding rings if they had them and clothes in colors other than gray. They could walk their dogs and sleep on a mattress. When they could find

it, they could use two-ply toilet paper. They could ride a bike or go for a drive, shop online, smell some lilacs, bake pumpkin pie, pour a glass of wine, or spend time with their children. So what you just said is an advertisement for why you shouldn't kill people. Right. Because that's all stuff you can't do. Because even in a pandemic, you're still better than somebody in prison. We knew! You're doing so much.

I never thought, wow, I might as well be in federal prison or state. And I never thought that once. I thought, well, this is great. I don't have to go anywhere. And I have lots of shit to watch on TV. Fantastic. Terrific. That's what I said. I have no responsibility to be anywhere else this is wonderful this is fantastic yeah can't do a

thing about it sorry can't make it what do you want from me prison is sterile isolation 24 7 friends have freaked out when they've learned that i do not have access to the internet i've often been asked about what the most difficult part of being here is. I can't speak for men in lockup, although I'm guessing it's the same, but the hardest thing for me and the people I live among is our inability to care for those we love. We're not free to hug our children after they've had a rough day. We can't walk a son to a bus stop or help a daughter purchase her first bra. We are not free to drive a mother to her chemo appointment or rake leaves for a blind neighbor we can't support our families financially we can't attend a funeral or graduation or be present on any special occasion how many people are actually raking blind people's leaves by the way not a lot very few i feel like because

the blind person doesn't even know the leaves are there they don't give a fuck and probably not gonna even ask you to rake them because what do they care? Matter of fact, most people that probably do that probably knock on the door and say, I'll rake your leaves. And then 20 minutes later, knock on the door and say, it's done. After they sat in the yard and drank a Coke. After they sat near a golf course like those two cops. Like breathing, the need for freedom is innate.

Our bodies are made to move. Our minds are programmed to learn and our hearts are constantly contracting and expanding. Freedom is expansion and joy. Jesus Christ, man. Um, then they see, she starts talking about what fucking poems she likes and all this shit. The criminal cases we see in the news are almost often sensational and violent. I used to have long-held why-would-you theory, as in, why would you choose to do the wrong thing? Turns out there are a lot of reasons. Sometimes people just make bad choices, but more often they act out of desperation or addiction to protect those they love. Prison is full of people who suffer from addiction or mental illness or are victims of abuse or violence. Most people who enter prisons and jails live below the poverty line before their address.

Our common denominator is trauma and loss. None of this applies to you. No. None of this. You're fine. You could have just forgot your brother, concentrated on getting fucking lawn mowing accounts, and started over like a normal person. I've met women who broke their parole in order to have a warm place to sleep in the winter and eat three square meals a day. I've heard some people

say that in here is the safest they've ever felt. When they came back to their cell after working for a quarter to a dollar fifty an hour at the prison, they told me prison was better than coming home to a violent rage. My friend Melissa is here on a meth-related charge. She's 38 and prior to prison has been to chemical dependency treatment three times.

She's currently in the same treatment program here. She was the first exposed to meth on her 11th birthday. It was a present from her dad. Oh, my God. Yeah. So she talks about how she said, our imagination can dominate carceral spaces. My freedom lives beyond walls, beyond flag, beyond expectation. I've learned real freedom is in the mind and heart.

It is there I focus my attention. Well, good. You can have a lot of time to focus it there because you have, I don't know, the rest of your fucking life. It's really like another 35, 40 years where you're going to be your grandmother lived to be 100. You could be in there a while. maybe we'll read another one of these from you yeah that's possible i have a feel like feeling you're not gonna shut the fuck up if i'm being honest with you so um yeah those are all complaints that are fair complaints and they are really helpful if you

don't kill anybody that's the thing it's really difficult to put to put the moral onus on anybody else put yourself in that situation like i don't know man is she trying to equate the injustice of her friend uh having a chemical dependency and likely committing crimes based on yes with her with her life yes same thing with her life same it's all we all come from trauma and loss that's what it is although my my trauma and loss was all from me. Right. That's what it is. I did most of it.

So, yeah, she's ridiculous. Andrew went in and he said, too, like he was trying to help his sister at one point. He was saying, like, I'll say I did everything if you give her parole or whatever. And they were like, no, we have you both. What do we care both of your shoes who did what shoes hands gloves standing next to the fire said that's not my brother in there sorry that was the dumbest thing ever she should have said nothing and then when they asked a question went oh i don't know i didn't see any bones there's bones holy shit gross ah that would have been normal run away screaming why isn't my life normal why isn't my life normal why am i in a stephen king story well you did this to you how does this

fucking this happens too it's crazy because this started out as such a small thing and then just built well he said that. He did that. Well, he took what? Jesus Christ. He's got the car. Fuck that. We're going to get the car back. He took what from grandma?

And it just snowballed into this mess of holy shit. How did Elizabeth's husband just scot-free? How did- And the girlfriend. Yeah. How? Both of them. They should get married.

They should get married they should get married i feel like that would be amazing if they got married because that's hilarious i don't know how neither of them got charged that's amazing at least give it you know accessory after the fact i'll give it because i feel like andy probably did the killing all the actual killing we know exactly how the killing went down you can just place whatever person in that place and i think it's andy yeah but i think that i think that husband had a weapon too i think he did something i think he was probably there yeah i think he was probably there um i maybe i don't know i can't you know allegedly but right obviously yeah i don't think he was the one who did everything like andy just sat there going oh no there's crazy stuff going on i'm gonna run away i just don't see that

happening can't put a weapon in his hand obviously because there's no no evidence of it but he had to have why do you have two guys there if one guy's just doing everything and he couldn't even fucking he couldn't even say man he sucks my brother's dead he had to say on the stand i'm still angry at him now that to me speaks yeah fucking volumes so i don't know if you like that story or like any of the stories tell the world about it really does help to go on whatever app you're listening on give us five stars and say something nice about the show we don't know why but it helps a lot so let's get in there and do that. Thank you for doing that.

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And we have so much stuff on the list. It's almost prisoner dating game time again. We got so much happening here, so you definitely want that. Anybody $5 or above. The whole back catalog you get, there's tons of episodes. A couple hundred of them in there for you to check out and binge on. And then every other week, two new ones this week, which you're going to get for one crime and sports, one small-town murder.

For crime and sports, you're going to get the murder of Bruiser Brody. Right. A cold-blooded-ass murder in a wrestling locker room in Puerto Rico. We'll talk all about how crazy everything was with that. And then for uh small town murder we're going to talk about haunted hotels oh boy those are fun as shit because there's always there's so many different people that stay in them there's like so many stories that it's a lot of fun yeah it's a whole market oh that's a that's crazy that'll make your hotel way more popular

it's very well yeah you want fucking you want your shit to be popular? You need a ghost is what you need. So make some shit up and just put it in there. Yeah, that new Marriott down by there, haunted as fuck. Brand new. There's specters everywhere. Brand new. Must be on a burial ground. We don't know.

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there do that Jimmy you know what you need to do hit me with the names of the people who would know if they ran me over with their car they would know it damn it they'd say there they are down there padum padum padum padum that's James that's Jimmy hit me with the list of those people right fucking now.

This week's executive producers are Wanda Lovejoy's Granny Edna, uh, Jordan Bennett, Cara Dunner, I believe. Guinevere Day McPherson, not, uh,

Sunny Day. Just happens to have the middle name of day, it looks like. Oh, no. Sorry. Or last. I don't know if it's hyphenated.

It's possible. Other, other producers this week are Liz Vasquez, Rachel Ann Meredith in Canada. Oh, no. Or last. I don't know if it's hyphenated. It's possible. Other producers this week are Liz Vasquez, Rachel Ann Meredith in Canada. Thank you for coming down to the shows. And Liz came to the show in Seattle. It was definitely Seattle. Seattle. Thanks, Liz. Good to see you again.

Was it Seattle? It all blends together. It was definitely Seattle. And her daughter's doing fantastic, which is wonderful. Great. She's really thriving. Luke Joseph Scarpa. I believe that's Chief J. Strom, which is wonderful. Great. She's really thriving. Luke Joseph Scarpa. I believe that's Chief J. Strombo, is it?

That's Joe Scarpa, yeah. Yep, that's him. Isaac Farkstein and the Family Foundation of Arts. That's nice. Baby Stinky from Abbott and Costello. I got to get back and watch. I got to brush up on my Abbott and Costello history. Rodney Lloyd and his friend Mike Hunt

sure Peyton Meadows Lumberg fucked her Lumberfucker? that would hurt oh Lumberg I thought you said Lumberfucker I'm like what like the knotholes I don't think he fucked Peyton Meadows

I think that was from Stephanie those are separate things I'm like, what, like the knotholes? I don't think he fucked Peyton Cano. Careful. I think that was from Stephanie in Minnesota. Those are separate things. Okay, fair enough. Janice Hill, Tiffany Gonzalez. Did I say Stephanie? It was Tiffany. Goddamn.

Whatever. Matthew Berube. Yeah, Berube. Holly McDaniel, Julia Collins, Hannah Bichell. Bickle? It's got to be Bickle, right? It's not Bichell. I would probably imagine.

Marissa Sherwood, Elizabeth Nedrow, James Spicer, Caitlin McCarthy, Victor and Jennifer Quinones, Miranda Pacheco, Dave True, Juan Merguia, Elizabeth LeBlanc, Elizabeth Fiorello, Kevin Stidworthy, Alice Schaefer, Kristen Campbell, Shannon with no last name, Bobby Jennings, Sue Stiebel, Josh Hamilton, Soggy Bottom, Soaps, Jake Atkinson, Cindy McGee, A. Swanson, Susan LeFevre, Laura Herrick? Herrick? Herrick. Chloe Cody S. Dierberg. Karen, oh boy, Hamlet. Aaron Snyder, Marie O'Brien, Tim, nope, that's Tina. Maran? Marin. Nope, that's Tina. Crystal Moore, Safdie with no last name. Rachel Sigourney, Kathleen Ettinger, Courtney Richmond, Tiffany with no last name. Kelsey Medlin, Ryan Baird, Midge and Millie's booksellers.

Kristen Kirsten, Kirsten Chase, Stump Chunkman, Lauren Denae, Nicholas with no last name, Johnny Joned, Joned maybe, Emily Miller, Heather, Heather, Heather McAfee. What happened? Rachel. Who's Rachel? Rachel and Heather's friend, Rachel. Sean Carter, Elizabeth West, Mary with no last name, OMG Reptar, Justin Smith, Abigail Jay-Z donated to us.

That's great. Did I say Jay-Z? What? Where did I go? Sean Carter donated to us. Oh, yes. Sean Carter, Jay-Z. Abigail Trigo, Nicole Little-Taylor. Little-Taylor.

Little-Taylor. Samantha Leach, David Stanford, Rebecca McIntosh, Ali Velasco, Vicky Camacho, Camacho, Camacho and Velasco. Victor, Vicky Macho Camacho. Hell yeah. Michelle Schmitz, Rick Formica. He makes shit piles of money. Amanda Kaser, bucket of wriggling peckers.

Remember those? I do. Whole bucket of them. She's as useless as a bucket of wriggling peckers. Remember those? I do. Whole bucket of them. She's useless as a bucket of wriggling peckers. Lance Rubble, Griselda Green, Paul Adkins, Jake Bell, Corey Howard, George B,

Rihanna McNeil-Resser, Elizabeth with no last name, Robert Carter, Eric Young, Stephen Fallon, Chasey, Chassie, Weimer, Chasey probably, Matthew with no last name, Kaylee Allen, Sean Kelly, Marge. It's not Marge. It's Marge.

I don't know how to do that. M-A-R-G. How do they do that? Shin. Marge. Marge Shin? Marg. Marg Shin?

Okay. Maybe Marg, like a margarita. Are they doing this to try to get me to say Marg's? Got any Margs? I don't know. Maybe. It'd be Marg, like a margarita. Are they doing this to try to get me to say Martian?

I don't know. Maybe. Rashawn Richardson, Garrett Smith, David Goodrich, Catherine Snedeker, Darcy Ellis, Kate Shaw, Isaac Jermu, Maggie Henderson, Christy Crowder, Pritchard M. Heer, Sparky Bigtime. That's funny. That's pretty good. Definitely BTK. Very funny. Yes. Jessica Villarreal. That's disgusting, but very funny. That's definitely BTK. Very funny. Yes.

Jessica Villarreal. That's disgusting, but very funny. Jenna with no last name. Heather Costas. Dottie. Scott Parker. Keegan LaChapelle. Quasox.

Eddie Retch. Lexi Hub. Ian Barber. Area Corkum. J-O. Hey, that's a good one. J-N-O. J period, O period, that's a person.

Darcy Covergirl, Brian Horner, Juggaload, that's gross. Kendall Yeagle, Darren McKibben, Courtney Hyde, Joey Neal, Jonathan McKinney, Blake Edwards, Haley B, Melanie Kirk, Daniel Pena, Becky Cizek, Angelo Santoro, Michael McIntyre, Colton C. Slinsky, Emily Brewer, G. Meesey, Gavin Murray, Austin Wallace, Karen Moreno, Tanner Rose, Lauren Hansinger, Melinda White, J.R. Smith, probably not that one, Tommy Johnston, Rihanna Fritzler, J.Z. and J.R. Smith. Can you believe it? What a big week for us. Sheila with no last name, Kyle Bird, Rina Fritzler,

Laymon, Laymon, Laymon Templeton, Christine Davis, Ellen Whitman, Katie Laymon, Zymzak, Danielle Froheiser. Fronheiser. Maggie Cowan.

Celeste Rocha. It's an Italian lady. There you go. Who's a dev? Who's a dev with no last name? Shonda Rutland. Daniel Sandomenico. Sandomenico.

KD Nicholas. Sarah Kay. Leah Strastico. KD Nicholas. Sarah Kay. Leah Strasdis. Stacey Frost. Cindy Abernathy. Chelsea Romero. Maureen McLaughlin. Joe Alvarez.

Keith Dilley. Ty with no last name. Tyler Weingard. Yep. Judy Stinson. Perry Buck. Diane Pepper. Jonathan Martinez.

Shatya. Shatya. Shatya Jones. Oh, boy. Melissa with no last name, Rachel Collins, Tron Gard. Carl with no last name, Laura Irvine. Mark with no last name, Sean Costello. Pocket Spaghetti, 710.

Gross. Ian Crowell. Oh, that's Italian people with spaghetti in their pockets. Emily Johnson. Got it. Monica Santiago. Val Burch. I've got Kevin Tappi in their pockets. Emily Johnson. Got it. Monica Santiago. Val Birch. I've got Kevin Tappy in my front pocket right now.

Victor Hernandez. Lisa Bingaman. Gertrude Gloria. Diego Centeno. Missy T1217. That's an employee name or something. Meredith Tilly. Tilly.

Those are punching. Missy T1217. Meredith Tilly. Kayla Henson. Cosmo Skywalker. Things are punching. Missy. T-1-2-1-7. Meredith Tilly. Kayla Henson. Cosmo Skywalker. Angela Kinley. And Amanda Garros. But also all of our patrons.

You're fantastic. Thank you. Thank you everybody so much for everything that you do for us every single goddamn day. We are blown away by it. So thank you. You're incredible. We really do. We just appreciate the hell out

of you people and if you want to follow us on social media you can do that very easy just look for uh shut up and give me murder.com the links go for everything for live shows for social media for everything like that keep coming back every damn week people what are you doing what else do you have to do and of course listen to express on fridays and of course crime and sports the mothership there you want to get in on that and listen to that but uh keep coming back and until next week everybody it's been our pleasure Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts.

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