Small Town Murder - #379 - The Satanic Corporate Ladder - Brandenburg, Kentucky

Episode Date: April 20, 2023

This week, in Brandenburg, Kentucky, a very strange tale unfolds, when a young woman takes a walk down the street, and disappears. When she is found, murdered horribly, attention immediately focuses on her boyfriend, and his best friend, who claim they were just drinking beer, and searching the trailer for a missing snake. This turns into massive, and epic tale, complete with a detective, going to jail! You don't want to miss a minute of this one!!Along the way, we find out that there are pageants for all ages at the county fair, that you can convict people with very little evidence, and that even the most trusted people can't always be trusted!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!Let’s go on a trip… to Bud’s Goods! Bud’s Goods is a New England cannabis brand with three recreational dispensaries in Massachusetts. In celebration of 420, we are raffling off a $100 Bud’s Goods gift card: enter here. Yayyyyyy! Must be 21+ to enter.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Brandenburg, Kentucky, the strange and mysterious disappearance of a young woman, some local weirdos, and a bunch of liars make for a seriously twisted murder epic. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. Jimmy, you're excited, I can tell, because you're on top of it today.

I love it. This is a crazy edition, and very quickly at the top of the show, before we get started, you definitely want to head over to shutupandgivememurder.com to get all your tickets for the upcoming live tour. Oh my goodness, lots of tickets. Next upcoming live shows, May 5th in Detroit,

May 6th in Pittsburgh, and, of course, the April 20th 420 virtual live show. Oh, are we excited for that. Just like a regular live show, except you're wherever you want to be. In your living room, on your back patio. You can watch it wherever you want. I'll ride the plane.

Yes, and Jimmy is going to be, I'm going to get him so stoned on i have all these things these apparatus that i've gathered for this just to see the look on his face trust me it's worth it you want that shut up and give me stoners oh yeah shut up and give me murder.com and a lot of the live shows up until chicago in august are sold out so get your tickets august 12th for Chicago. We can't wait. Chicago's never let us down. We have a giant venue. It's huge. And come fill it up everybody. Let's do that. Shut up and give me murder.com.

You also certainly want to head to patreon.com slash crime and sports where you get all of the bonus materials. So much bonus material. Anything, anybody $5 or above, you get the whole back catalog. It's like almost 200 episodes so many bad bonus episodes to catch up on and then also in addition to that every other week you're going to get two new episodes one small town murder one crime and

sports you get access to it all what a deal what a deal this week what you're going to get for crime and sports we're going to talk about personal ads again where we take a look back in some newspapers from back in the day and we see exactly exactly how people were selling themselves to the dating public in the 80s. Please, fuck me. Please, good God, look at me. I've described myself, isn't that enough? It's hilarious. We do it twice a year.

And then for Small Town Murder, we're going to dip back into the serial killer childhood series that we've done. We're going to talk about the BTK killer childhood. So when he was a little guy, little guy, almost, it's all like in his own words to creepy. So creepy. It's going to be stood for baby.

Oh, it's going to be amazing. It's going to be so weird. Patreon.com slash crime and sports. And of course, keep an eye out. We'll give you an exact date here in a minute, but keep an eye out for your stupid opinions. The exact date here in a minute, but keep an eye out for Your Stupid Opinions,

the new show that we're going to come out with. And we talk about reviews from all over the internet of everything, and we make fun of people's reviews. It's so much fun. So we're going to do that. But before we get to that, I think it's time to do the disclaimer. This is a comedy show. We're comedians.

People will die. They will. They will die. And we're going to make fun of lots of things like a bumbling police force we make fun of murderers we make fun of a small town because we're all from somewhere terrible who cares it's a roast we're having a good time here but what we don't do we never do we never we go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the victims families because we're assholes but we're not scumbags that's how that works so that

sounds good to you holy shit do we have a crazy story if you think true crime and comedy should never ever ever go together maybe we won't get along who knows fun but for the rest of you who want to hear a crazy story i think it's time everybody it's time to sit back yeah you want to clear the lungs let's do this everyone and let's all shout shut up and give me murder let's do this all right let's go on a trip shall we all right we're going down to kentucky oh boy going on down kentuck way that's homeland let's do it yeah that's what it's known for that's all i think about now every time i think of kentucky i get angry not not muhammad ali or punter s thompson or not even like hillbilly shit not even that i'm thinking louisville shit you

know jim cornett even though i'm mad because he's lying he's lying this is uh brandenburg kentucky and it is like it's over by louisville over in that side of the state there it's about 50 minutes outside of Louisville about 3 hours and 10 minutes to our last episode which was in Kentucky which was the it was in Grace in Kentucky the missing blood mystery so that was a fun one and then

this is in Meade County and the motto here oh boy the heartland of Kentucky oh boy yeah that is quite the motto they need oh boy, the heartland of Kentucky. Oh boy. Yeah, that is quite the motto. They need a heartland, huh? I mean, Kentucky considers themselves the heartland already. This is the heartland within the heartland. And Louisville is so much more important.

How much heartland can you get, man? You got the slugger. You got too much heart. There's so much. The slugger, the lip, all of it. It's a lot. Too much heart. There's so much.

The slugger, the lip, all of it. It's a lot. So this town was originally built on a 3,000 acre tract of land called Falling Springs. It was purchased in 1804 by a guy named Solomon Brandenburg. Oh, easy peasy. He just opened a tavern in the middle of a tract of land. You filled the bar, James. We're coming. That's how much people love booze. This is in the middle of a tract of land you build the bar james that's we're coming that's how much people

love booze this is in the middle of nowhere yeah just i mean a tract of land that's purchased and he's like i'll put a tavern here people will find it and they did the bar made it happen and they actually found it that's crazy shit so and it did and it grew around the tavern that's how people people started building their houses around the tavern. That's my kind of place. I want to be close to the booze. We'll put it right next. Okay. That's good.

So by 1825, it became the seat of the county. Oh. They must love booze. They really do. They really do. Holy shit. It wasn't formally incorporated as a town until 1872, though, here. Now, in 1974, this town was pretty much leveled by an F5 tornado.

Jesus. Which I think that's as bad as it gets, right? Or F6, I think, is the worst. F5. I think 5. I think 5. I think that's the one Helen Hunt had to use a leather strap to save herself. Definitely the guy either from Tombstone or Independence Day had to do.

He definitely had to strap himself to something. You're right. You're absolutely correct. That's my favorite way to say that. Either the guy from this or that. You know who we're talking about. You know it's Paxton or Pullman. You know they look exactly the same.

Not even. They just. No, the same. It's just a Bill P. Same age-ish. Same i think it's just similar so the that's awesome right so uh the tornado touched down near hardensburg and it moved northeast and grew into a half mile wide wedge tornado a wedge can you imagine how terrifying it is to see a half milemile-wide wedge tornado on F5. A wedge, too. Can you imagine how terrifying it is to see a half-mile-wide tornado coming at you?

I mean, I've heard of them up to two miles wide, but those are like fucking cylindrical columns. You don't even see anything but the tornado. This is coming at you like a butt plug. It's getting an entrance point. It's not good. Right up your ass. Right up your ass, and it did. It's not good. Right up your ass. Right up your ass.

And it did. It went right up Brandenburg's ass. Head on, it said. I mean, hit it pow. The tornado killed 31 people and injured 270. All in the bar. That's all that's there. And when you hear how few people there are in this town, they injured like 10% of the town, which is bonkers.

All but three of the fatalities and most of the town which is bonkers um all but three of the fatalities and most of the uh injuries were in brandenburg also so i mean that's it's all here pretty much 128 homes and 30 businesses were also completely destroyed just leveled so uh it was a lot there was no early morning from tornado sirens or the uh the weather wire service about the storm they had no idea no idea they were just like oh look at that we're all fucked that's that's loud oh boy we're all gonna die it's all that noise that's yeah what is that why is it real quiet and then not it's uh terrifying so about a half hour after the storm the same supercell spawned an F4 tornado. Oh, my God.

What a nightmare. That formed in the southwest part of Louisville in Jefferson County. Three people died in that storm, but it also left 207 people injured as well. So an F5, and they thought it was all over, and they're like, oh, no, no, here comes its buddy. Jesus. There's more. Wow.

The Brandenburg tornado remains the only f5 tornado in kentucky state history since official record keeping began in 1950 they wouldn't have known how to fucking measure it before that anyway so it wouldn't have mattered um although later that day another f5 hit cincinnati and crossed the ohio river from indiana into kentucky and then went back into ohio but really didn't do anything to kent, so they didn't count it. Reviews of this town, other than I don't have a house anymore, it blew away in the 70s. If you hate your family, you can get rid of them here. It's a good place for it.

Something will come through and take them away. Get your leather belt ready. Five stars, first of all. Let's start out with the positive, all positive. Great community. Absolute best schools and teachers you could ever ask for. Ever ask for. Ever.

This is the best school system ever. Pretty peaceful and not a lot of crime. We'll be the judge of that. They always say that. They always say it. I've not been to many places I would say I would rather raise kids and a family. Country life, not too far from the city life. Far enough, though, that we still have that small-town feel without all the bull.

You know, all that bull. Without all the bull. Just being an adult. Just say bullshit. I don't know if you can swear on niche. Oh, got it. I think that might be the thing. You could use characters. We'll get the point.

S fucking. Dollar sign. S diastric. You know, we'll do that. Dollar sign. S diastric. Yeah. You know, we'll do that. My Kentucky home, Brandenburg. Come see for yourselves. All right.

I think that was a commercial. It was actually writing. Or a song. Country life, not too far from city life. Far enough, though, that we still have that small town feel without all the bull. My Kentucky home, Brandenburg. Come see for yourselves. And then some music plays. Johnny De couple of kids skipping through a field oh it's obviously johnny depp reading it

it's not gonna be me i'm not who am i so four stars here brandenburg has its pros and cons schools and teachers are some of the best in the state small close-knit community historical locations a small town not far from cities lack of entertainment is the biggest con used to have a skating rink theater and arcade between the lack of business and teens always fighting all got closed down those those will happen i mean but that's i've never been to a place where teens gather where they don't fight each other eventually there's gonna be a fight a fight. That's what teens are. Especially the arcade. Testosterone.

Skating rink? I've skated with your girl. You better fight me. Testosterone. Falling off. Arcades? Arcade. Yeah, that's where it all happens.

That's the fighting time. Yeah, that's kind of where the kids have their own autonomy, really, to run things. Yeah, it's a Lord of the Flies situation. You bring a pocket full of quarters and your mitts. That's it, man, your mitts. That's right. You have to go to Louisville or Elizabethtown for a variety of food choices and entertainment.

Didn't the other person say there was food choices? Right. I don't know what's going on here. Brandenburg, a few restaurants and a few fast food joints. Residents tend to go somewhere else because more choices. Okay, we get it. There's not a lot of food there. You want to say it in another way now?

Your options are small. We got it. If the residents would support new business coming in and would frequent them, it would be possible to get new options. But most still don't. Bowling, buttermilk falls, and some good parks is really all there is to do. Oh, God. My fucking arteries choked saying that. Buttermilk Falls?

What the fuck is that? I think it's probably like falls, like a water area they call buttermilk for some reason. Ew, don't say that. It makes it sound thick and gross. Sounds like the opposite of Candyland. Not somewhere you'd want to go in the heat. Middle of summer? Let's go to Buttermilk Falls.

Prince Biscuits and Gravy. Prince Cholesterol. somewhere you'd want to go in the heat middle of summer let's go to buttermilk falls biscuits and gravy yeah it's gonna be all curdled if we go there now i don't want to go there i got a 12 i'm up at buttermilk falls sounds good high cholesterol land jesus man buttermilk falls and some good parks even used to have a public pool okay if you need car wash laundromat or bank then right place they have that stuff fascinating little sentence not a walker or biker friendly town all in all it's a pretty good little town yeah most little towns aren't walker friendly because there's a lot of sidewalks yeah uh four stars here i lived in brandenburg for most of my life and i would say it's your average small town within Kentucky that has its history with a river view and a good place to grow up as a kid.

Most of my best memories are from the small town that gave me my best besets friends. I mean, I think they mean best, but besets friends. And rise me to the man I am today. Rise. Rise me. I don't know. I've never heard of that phrase before. Missed an A there.

They got real stoned there. All my friends, rise me up to the man I am today. All right, then. To Seth's friends and rise me. Sounds good. Three stars. Overall, Brandenburg is fine. I'd just like to see more recreational activities

and stuff for teenagers to do that isn't the library. Oh, I'm sorry. You've got to learn. I think that's a teenager, I would assume. Two stars here. The place just seemed like a very weird place to me. And I've been to a lot of places. This place just seemed like a very weird place

to me, and I've been to a lot of places. They figured out a way to put the word place in there three times. That's awesome. North, awesome north south east and west oh all of them they've been everywhere yeah it just seems like there was something going on that only the town's people knew and we were outsiders that's called kentucky yeah um people was rude to my whole family oh except for the ball field people was pretty nice there i don't know but something didn't just feel right to me and my family that's how i feel most of the time when i go places so i get it i get that one yeah uh people in this town population 2,857 so a small

town nobody you know when you hear 270 people go, holy shit, that's a huge chunk. That's a lot. That's 10% of the town. It's 50-50 male-female. Median age is low. It's 34.1. And a lot of that is there's more old people than normal, which is weird. Anything 70 and up is all over in the demographics at that age.

Not as many kids as normal, but there's a shitload of 25 to 34 people here wow that's kind of driving most of the people remember the f5 yeah shit there's 85 and over a lot of those people they remember the tavern probably those people who knows uh people here 44.1 married which is low it's usually 50 50 30 this is one of the highest we've ever seen. 33% are single with children. Hey! So, partay. Yeah, like that. Fun town here.

Normally it's 10%, so that's a lot. Race in this town, 90.6% white, 1.9% black, 3.1% Asian. Fascinating. In a rural Kentucky town that seems... Rural in the first place and then kentucky yeah extra whittles it down that's where all point one that's where i would go if i came from another continent right yeah strange uh one percent hispanic so it's it's pretty pretty white and and asian actually uh religion in this town is higher than normal it's usually 50 50 here 58.5 and no surprise here 33.3 percent are baptists as we know baptists are the catholics

of the south as we all know here 0.0 percent jewish that's not happening here um more more asian people than jewish people i don't care whatever uh 25.7 percent of the people politically last election, 25.7% voted Democratic, 72.2% Republican, and 2.1% Independent. Interesting. The economy in this town here, the median household income is a little bit low. It's normally about $54,000. Here, it's $39,440. It's a little bit low, and the cost of living is a little bit low as well. Good.

$100,000 is normal. Here, it's $85,000. Okay. It's a little low, and the housing is the low thing out of all of that median home cost uh 253 thousand nine hundred dollars that's a lot of money to feed a tornado that's what i luckily there haven't been any since then but maybe that's maybe they built them strong and that's why they rebuilt it all either way if we've convinced you it, that you have to move to Brandenburg, I don't know what's going on. Maybe you want to go bowling. Maybe you're very interested in buttermilk.

Either way, we have for you the Brandenburg, Kentucky real estate report. Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $760. So, cheap. Yeah. That's, you know, that's $1,200 normally. I found a, here's a three-bedroom, three-bath, 2,052-square-foot house. Good-sized house. On almost four acres.

Hey! A lot of acreage here. The house is, it's like a raised ranch. Yeah. But it looks, it's the shape of a long, single-wide trailer. Oh, no. Like, it's a house, but it's very long, short, and... It's like a bowling alley. Kind of, yeah. Maybe they're obsessed with bowling here.

That's what it is. More bowling here. It's a very interesting house. It's very weird, but the price is not bad. $194,900. With four acres. With four acres and 2,000 square feet. It's very weird, but the price is not bad. $194,900. With four acres. With four acres and 2,000 square feet. That's not terrible.

Here's a three-bedroom, three-bath. Again, T-Ball for every b-hole here. 2,087 square feet. It is very blue. Like, blue. Blue. You would see this shit from a plane. Like, wow, look at that blue house down there.

It was built in 2022. Oh. And the thing in the baby's room, they have a big, giant script. I don't know, big written thing that says Shelby Sue on it. Good for Shelby. Little Shelby Sue lives in this house. In 2022, they painted their house blue? Blue and named the baby Shelby Sue.

They really like the ooh. They like the ooh down there. So this house, though, $345,000. But it's brand new. It's a brand new house. Absolutely brand new. Not on any acres, though. They're already selling?

I think they just built it. It's probably a builder selling it. Shelby Sue outgrew it. Oh, no. Shelby Sue's living there. She outgrew it. Jesus. We need a new house for Shelby Sue.

Fast-growing baby. That's Shelby Sue. Now they grow different in Kentucky. Four-bedroom, three-bath here. there so yeah they all grew it jesus we need a new house for shelby's grown baby that's shelby sue now they grow they grow different in kentuck uh four bedroom three bath here 3480 square feet this is on 29.4 acres oh this is a lot holy spread out it's it's a boring house it's not the most but you got 30 acres babe 30 acres and it also there's a horse farm in there and all that kind of shit there's a concrete room which i don't know what you use that for hh holmes would have an idea water for i don't like that you know john wayne gacy would probably like that if you put a drain in the floor you're like this place is amazing water for rooms scare me that's terrifying here but it's an

interesting house 865 000 for that on that acres, it seems like a good deal. Things to do here. Okay, the Battletown Witch Festival. Okay. Battletown Witch Festival. Is it like Civil War stuff? No, no, witch. Like witches.

Right, but what's the Battletown part? Are we battling the witches? I think that's what it is. I think it's a battle to the death with the witches. It says it's a family-friendly event that will celebrate the complicated and tragic life of Leah Smock. Oh. Speakers will include her descendants, historians, and a writer of Weird Mead County. The day will also celebrate the spooky season with haunted happenings, trick-or-treats, great food, and children's activities.

Okay. Leah Smock, apparently, or Lee Smock, however it's said here, she was the daughter of a powerful Kentucky witch, allegedly. Accounts of people who encountered her said she was an intelligent woman and all of that. It had been suggested that she had powerful intuition and possibly second sight. You know, she's a witch. Of course. So through whatever um she was attributed with

healing properties either from herbal remedies she put together or her own powers yeah she's also a seer okay she predicted uh predicted the deaths of critically ill people which i could probably do yeah i could do that holy shit you're gonna die i could tell you that you find me someone who's 95 years old i bet you're dead the next five years you know i'm just uh my odds are being right or pretty good very ill people she said they're gonna die and then they died she saw an f5 tornado coming and she said people are gonna die people are gonna die and they went it's a witch she's a seer she sees it um at 22 she was uh killed when a posse of locals fearful of her power visited her father's farm while she was alone they put her in the smokehouse and set it on fire

oh my god man what they did to her holy shit um what year was this uh 1840 unbelievable if you've ever seen the mystery science theater movie the touch of satan this is exactly what it reminds me of okay this is exactly what it reminds the walnuts are just tearing through that hay it's just it's a very deep cut so uh yeah throwing a matter i don't know what they're doing no no i mean they were tearing through her head what is the wall no well it's a Mystery Science Theater reference. She said they lived on a walnut farm, and then they cut to her dad stacking hay. Oh.

So the comment from Mike Nelson was, the walnuts are just tearing through that hay. They need all this hay for these walnuts. It's a very bad 70s movie. Got it. All right. Yeah. Also, the Mead County Fair. Oh, yeah.

Get on in there. There's a baking contest, a beef cook-off. Love that. A garden tractor pull. A garden tractor. It's a small tractor, maybe. Little guys. I have no idea.

I don't know what's going on. What are you pulling? What you pulling there, little guy? A horse show, a gospel singing day, there's swine shows. Of course, Miss Mead County and then Ms. Mead County will also be decided there. And those are very important events, obviously. Sure, the divorced girl. Yeah, she's Ms. I think that's just not a teenager, we hope, anyway.

There's a youth talent contest and then an $8, cash drawing oh just a raffle i don't know eight grand that's a round number uh tuesday there's a special needs day from ten to one just that that's it when no one else is around come on in wheel around and get the fuck out of here or else we'll put you in a smokehouse and set you on fire. The peewee miss, the precious miss. Don't like either of those. Don't like that. Followed by the sheep and the goat shows. Which I feel like people...

Anybody that's there for those events, the peewees or the sheep, fucking keep an eye on them all. That's exactly what I was going to say. Either way, if you see the same guy at both events, probably it's a guy... Arrest him. You want to at least keep, probably it's a guy. Arrest him. You want to at least keep a real close eye on there.

There's a baby contest as well. Who's the most baby? The hottest fucking baby. Who's the hottest baby here? A pre-teen pageant as well. They have pageants for everybody. A Miss Teen pageant. So there's's babies pre-teen miss teen yeah miss and miss oh my god from what i've seen there's also a mud sling i don't know what that is that sounds

awesome just a mud sling throw you from i don't know i want to see what that is that sounds amazing mud at you wow um that is insane i don't know what's going on at the Meade County Fair, but this is some wild shit. I mean, they're judging everybody. Everybody. Every age bracket, species. We're going to find out the hottest one of everything. From babies to goats. Who's hot?

Bring them on. Crime rate in this town. Yeah. What we're interested in. Let's find out if it is low. And it is low. Property crime is about half the national average. Great.

It's very low. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one-third half the national average. Great. Very low. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one-third of the national average. So pretty damn low. That said, let's talk about a time when it wasn't low. Let's talk about some murder, shall we? Let's do that. Okay.

Let's get into this here. To get into this murder, we have to go back to 1992. Okay. Okay. So we're back in the time machine we're going back a little over 30 years a good time it's a good time and to put you in the 92 mindset for everybody because the characters in this are very 1992 yeah so you have to put yourself in the mindset just going to give you some of the top movies of 1992 oh just so you can put it in a

historical perspective that we can understand okay uh number one movie of that year was batman returns oh keaton yeah the keats holy shit absolutely lethal weapon three number two sister act the first one number three that's what i mean put yourself in this historical time home alone 2 lost in new york oh wayne's world basic instinct what a time to be alive a league of their own aladdin the hand that rocks the cradle and then under siege which is a steven steven seagal movie that's the top 10 movies that is a great fucking uh menu at the movie theater that's what i'm a patriot games yeah the bodyguard yeah white men can't jump stop it fried green Patriot Games. Yeah. The Bodyguard. Yeah. White Men Can't Jump. Stop it. Fried Green Tomatoes.

Oh, my God. Last of the Mohicans. Yeah. Unforgiven. Yeah. The Western. Beauty and the Beast. Boomerang with Eddie Murphy.

Wow. Father of the Bride with Steve Martin. The Prince of Tides. Death Becomes Her. Yeah. Which was funny as shit. That was Honey, I Blew Up the Kid. That was bad.

Kind of bad. Yeah. That's not good. Made the baby big. Hook. House Sitter with Goldie Hawn and Steve Martin. My Cousin Vinny that year. Stop it. That's the number 31 movie that year, by the way. Not bad.

That's not bad, but still. It's fucking competition, man. And they played forever. I mean, single white female, Mighty Ducks, JFK. What a time to own a theater. Passenger 57, Malcolm X, Encino Man. Like, Honeymoon in Vegas. Great time. This is... In a cage. Yeah, this is a lot. k what a time to own a theater passenger 57 malcolm x and cno man like honeymoon in vegas great time this is a cage yeah this is awesome so a lot of comedy this is really a good time you're having fun the the the 80s through the night in the early 90s were great time for comedy

movies and it was it was a peace time in the world more or less kind of well we were in a war was that 92 in iraq at that time in 91 92 oh yeah yeah it was after the fall of the ball and the soviet union good time to be alive so that said let's talk about some people who were alive not having fun not alive for the whole story all of them obviously if we're talking about them but they've probably seen these someone in here yeah definitely definitely will be dead. But let's talk about some people who were alive at this point. First up, Rhonda Sue Warford. W-A-R-F-O-R-D.

War Ford. She's 19 years old in 92. So, yeah, she's born in 72. It's going to be her 20th birthday this year. She was born in September of 72. And, you know, she's kind of a typical teenager of the time when i describe her you're gonna go oh yeah totally like i had that or i did that same kind of shit she graduated from iroquois high oh uh lives with her parents mary and james

they she lives in louisville okay uh she lives at 104 east whitney avenue as a matter of fact in louisville she has three sisters and a brother as well. So, you know, five kids in the family. Mom and dad still married, living together. 19 still in the house. 19 still in the house, still at home. Yeah. She has a boyfriend as well.

And he's an interesting fellow, as you might imagine. Tell me more. His name is Gar. Oh, my God. G-A-R-R. That's his real name. Gar Keith Harden Jr. It's not Garrett. It's Gar. No,R-R. That's his real name. Gar Keith Harden Jr. It's not Garrett.

It's Gar. No, it's Gar. That's his full name. Gar Keith Harden Jr. Okay. He's 22. Yeah. He goes by Keith because Gar is-

Who does the other? Yeah, Gar is kind of a crazy name. That's what I mean. So, yeah, he's 22. He's been her boyfriend since about November of 91. So, he's been about five months. We're going to jump in four months. March, early April. We're going to talk about 19. That was fucking 12 years. Oh, that's a long time. It's a big relationship.

And, you know, she's had other boyfriends and stuff. And, you know, this isn't like her first boyfriend or anything. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one

and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart.

And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing.

This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

Now, he's kind of a 1992 dirtbag is the best way to describe him. He's like Joe Dirt. He's just like this guy. He's into metal music. Big Metallica fan. Yeah, he likes snakes and just likes to drink beer and listen to Slayer and loves Satan. Really? Loves Satan.

Oh, my God. Loves Satan. Super into satanic shit. But he's like Mr. From what he says and what other people says, he's like Mr. Modern Satanism. He's not like, I want to sacrifice things. He's like the no blood sacrifice, the humanist type of whatever the new.

What are you sacrificing with no blood? It's the new Satan. Yeah. So, yeah, it's not sacrificing anything. That's the piece saying he's not sacrificing anything. So now let's go to April 1st, 1992. April 1st, it's 7.30 p.m. We're going to talk to Rhonda here.

Not talk to her, but talk about Rhonda. Now, Rhonda, it's about 7.30, like we said. She's 19. She goes down the street, walks down the street to the Kroger grocery store near her Louisville home. So can't be more innocent than that. Sure. She gets there. She does some shopping.

I guess picks up a couple things. Walks home. Gets home about 7.30. And she tells her mother that there was this guy, a strange man harassing her. And said that he was following her. She called him old and dirty looking. Oh, sorry. This old, dirty looking man,

it wasn't either of us, followed her shouting that he wanted to marry her and have children with her. Okay. Come back, I want to put one in your belly. Come back, I got good swimmers. That's attractive to a young lady. I want to marry you and give you my children. Have your children is the flattery.

Yeah, I want to have children with you. I want to put children in you is a threat. That sounds just, yeah, especially if it's from a stranger who's described as a, quote, dirty looking old man who's following you through a grocery store parking lot. I feel like at that point it's a little creepy. So she stays home for a few hours. She's hanging out. About midnight, she grabs her mother's house keys and says she's going down the street for a little bit. Now, the relatives think because there's a store that's open late within walking distance.

Like a corner store? I think like a corner store. So they figure she's just going to the nearby store, which she did all the time late at night. Need a stick of gum. Stick a gum, go down, I'm going to go down and get some ho-hos, whatever her hankering is. Boy, do I crave a gas station meal sometimes. Sometimes I just need a gas station pulled pork sandwich, I feel like. I was on a bag of doritos and a

butterfinger and i'm gonna go get it actually the best pulled pork sandwich i've ever had was in a shitty looking gas station slash bait shop in north carolina bait shop does it yeah literally driving through and it kept saying best dang bbq in north carolina like for like miles it was he finally gave it these shitty they weren't big billboards they were like handmade signs and we were like i mean they keep saying it's the best dang that there is so i'm gonna stop and man was it it was the best dang barbecue in north carolina i gotta say they were not bullshitting oh that still exists i'm sure it does if you're ever in rural north carolina and you see signs for the best dang barbecue, don't believe them.

Stop and get some. It makes sense to have something specialty there because how much, what's the fucking profit margin on worms? Well, I mean, worms are free. Are they really at a bait shop? No, no, no. To get them. Right.

You go out and harvest them. You don't have to pay for them. Yeah, you're just picking worms. You're just picking worms up. They're free worms. So I guess it's all profit at that point. You probably have a worm guy, though. He seems like the guy who'd be in the Kroger parking lot.

He's old and dirty and smelled like worm and earth. I didn't like it. I got a worm guy. I got a worm guy. Call the worm guy. We're running low. There can't be much of a profit margin on that. You got to have something extra.

And that that for me if i'm a great barbecuer that was good i'm doing it it was fucking good potato salad oh fuck there's sides it was side you didn't say anything about sides you just said sandwich i had slaw and potato salad damn i'm in it was top tier i'll tell you they had it was either how far from raleigh is it i I don't remember. It was coming from- South Carolina? We were driving from Baltimore West. Oh, okay.

Which is probably, but it was not on the 40. It was like off of some other road. I don't know where the hell it was, honestly. It was 10 years ago, but- Look it up on Google Maps. Yeah. Just look up Best Dang Barbecue- In North Carolina?

In North Carolina, Eastern North Carolina. I'm sure it'll come up. So they expect her back quickly because she doesn't even take her purse, Rhonda, when she goes to the store. She just takes her mom's keys so she can get back in the house. Doesn't take her purse. Doesn't take her ID with her. Nothing.

Nothing. Just some cash. She's going down the road for a second, obviously. So she doesn't come back. Half hour goes by. 45 minutes goes by. Hour goes by. Where is she? She usually comes back in 15 minutes when she goes to the store. She's goes by. Hour goes by. Where is she?

She usually comes back in 15 minutes when she goes to the store. She's eating a lot of barbecue today. Yeah, she must have really found it. So they're starting to get worried, the family. She's 19. She's an adult. An hour? That's a long time.

She never does that, though. They say she's real responsible with her parents as far as calling them. She'll always say, hey, I'm here now. Sometimes sometimes she'll just disappear but she'll call them and be like hey i'm over here so they know and then it's fine so uh they said she was last seen wearing red pants red sweatpants a red and black jacket with unlv on the sleeve how 1992 is that rebel fan 1992 everyone had unlv gear that's some of the things I'm going to say are so 1992, it's not even funny. Can't name a player, but I got the shirt. Oh, you have no idea, everybody who wasn't around in 1992, how big UNLV, the college, their gear was in 92.

Everybody had it. Well, they were a really good basketball team back then, but wow, they were really popular. So the next morning, as soon as daybreak comes, her mom calls the cops and reports are missing. She doesn't come home all night. Yeah, I'd call too. Her mom sat up all night waiting for her. She never came home. As soon as the sun came up, she said, I'm calling the cops.

This is ridiculous, obviously. So she called the Louisville police. And immediately, I like how the family here, by the way, takes the initiative. They don't just depend on the cops to find her. They don't just go, well, I mean, we called the cops. The mom, Mary, and other family members make up a flyer with her picture on it, description, and distribute it to all the stores and offices in the area. Like, we're talking the next day. Right now.

They're putting flyers out. No bullshitting around. It's crazy. Her cousin, Julie, said we had no choice to think about but to think about foul play when she didn't come back. This is a very close knit family. She calls home always. Oh, no. So this is very weird. Yeah.

They put the flyer up and they get no bites on the flyer. Panic. Day goes by. Panic. The third comes April 3rd. Waiting for doesn't come. Oh, my God. Nobody calls. Panic. The third comes, April 3rd. Waiting for her. Doesn't come home. Oh, my God. Nobody calls.

No indication. No, the police have nothing. They go, I don't know. She didn't check in. I don't know what to tell you. And the police are, I feel like the police are looking at her as she's a 19-year-old girl. She's probably met up with one of her boyfriends. That's what they're looking at.

Yeah, but the family knows. You know what I mean? Listen to them. Look at their face because they know her the thing a lot of times too the thing about this is a weird thing somebody asked me on social media they said hey what's the difference they said i'm over in europe and they're in england i think one of our listeners and they said you know i see on on like shows with american cops that american cops have seemed to have a lot of patience for people's bullshit they'll go crazy and they'll act nuts and they just stand there and act like you're

they don't see you like you're a painting and i said that's a that's called practiced indifference because their whole thing is if you get a rise out of them then you win yeah so the crazier you act the calmer they act usually that's the way it works it's like i it was a bouncer it's the the same thing. If you act crazy, I'm going to go. Yeah, the door is that way. Like, it's just it's a human thing of like, I'm not going to escalate to you because then you win. Right. So I'm not going to do that. So I think that's what it is. And I think a lot of times also, if you tell cops like something very emotional and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, their thing is, hey, let's come. It's not, you know what I mean? Like, I'm sure it's not that bad. They're very cynical because they see a lot of crazy shit. Right. And also some of them are assholes. Yeah, there's that.

Between the two of them. There's the how are you going to shock me guy and I don't fucking care about this guy. Exactly. And you're full of shit, guys. So that's between the two. So finally, April 4th comes. She's not there. So this is crazy.

She left at midnight between April 1st, April 2nd, midnight, and then it's April 4th, still not there. Finally, on April 5th, out on Dead Horse Hollow Road. Don't like that. Dead Horse Hollow. Where do you live? Up in Dead Horse Holler? Oh, my God. Holy shit, that sounds attractive. That's very nice. dead horse hollow road don't like that dead horse hollow where do you live up in dead horse holler holy shit that sounds attractive that's very nice it could be a beautiful area we don't know it could

be splendorous but listen you should have named it better yeah well a two a couple was actually looking at a property out there on dead horse hollow road looking at some real estate so maybe it's attractive land to buy i'm not sure um and while they're out there looking over this property they see what they think is a mannequin on the ground yeah it's fucking never a mannequin how often is it a mannequin i've only heard of it be a mannequin one time and that was with the hillside stranglers case where there was actually a mannequin where they thought it was a body at one point it's uh jeffrey dahmer's grandma delivering his folded towels and it's in his bed it's something yeah but there's never one in the goddamn world not in the woods that's just

super weird so they're looking at it they get a little closer and they realize oh no that looks like a person who's fully clothed on the ground there. So they call out to the person. Hello. Hello. Maybe they're taking a nap. Maybe they were hiking and took a nap. Who knows? Let's fingers crossed they're napping.

And the person doesn't answer. So they go, let's go call the sheriff's department. I'm not going to go poke around and touch it. Yeah. I don't know what's going on here. So they found her. It was near Kentucky 823. That's the road in rural mead county it's outside of

brandenburg and uh her parents said like we said a reporter missing and um she was lying face down ronda was she had white canvas tennis shoes like kids every girl wore in 1992 literally kids yep red sweatpants dark blue shirt and unlv jacket yeah so it's her it's her exact what she was wearing damn it the night she disappeared and everything um what was done is pretty terrible i mean it's pretty bad she was stabbed 11 times dear lord 11 times in the upper body um her throat also slashed from ear to ear as well. What? Just, I mean, overkill here. No sexual assault whatsoever, which is rare when you find a 19-year-old girl murdered and dumped in the woods. Usually there's a sexual component to that.

And this is just to destroy her. There's no sexual here at all. She had on her hands a one-inch cut on the surface of her right hand and about a half-inch cut on her right index finger. She tried. Defense wounds. inch cut on the surface of her right hand and about a half inch cut on her right index finger defense wounds um the chief medical examiner observed these a stab wound that pierced her lung through the upper right chest what the fuck and stab wounds at the base of her skull one of which severed her brain stem what and they cut her throat this so they killed her three times in the first place killed her three times over It was over in the first place. Killed her three times over. Like, this is horrible brutality. In addition, they said that, and this is from a newspaper.

I'm going to give an exact quote from a newspaper at the time when they found her. Quote, in addition, Greer, who was one of the detectives we'll talk about, said, the satanic symbols were found crudely tattooed on her body an inverted cross on her left breast which is just an upside down cross a lot of people have and an anarchy symbol on her back the a with the circle are these brand new that's what they're trying to say like she was tattooed and murdered you know what i mean so um the anarchy symbol, by the way, again, this is a 1992 thing. The anarchy symbol was omnipresent in 1992. It was enormous.

It was such a big deal. I had a Zippo with an anarchy thing on it. Kids had the shirts. Yeah, they sold the patch that had the phrase on it that you could just iron on to shit. It was the biggest shit in the world, the anarchy symbol. So to have, you know, that wasn't a big deal back then. That just meant you were in 1992. Yeah, but right. And punk was such a big deal still that that wasn't a big deal back then that just meant you were in 1992 yeah but right and punk was such a big deal still that that shit was a big deal because of punk absolutely um so yeah they said she had defensive wounds now police officers at the scene then i

found this interesting they preserved the evidence when they were doing that they placed plastic bags over her hands to preserve you know anything under the nails but that's from what i've heard and i've i've studied this more than i probably should have but when they do crime scene shit plastic bags are not what you want to put on people's hands no because that there's condensation that can build up in plastic which can ruin the whole thing you put paper bags over hands. It preserves everything but doesn't let moisture in. It soaks up the moisture. So I was reading that in the homicide book.

The medical examiner in Baltimore said you'd never put plastic bags on people's hands. So that's one thing that I didn't like right away. And they also said that there was a close-range violent struggle as well. They said there was definitely a struggle involved. And, uh, they said that they recover three hairs, three hairs from her hand.

She was gripping three hairs in her hand. So she was fighting grabbed for some hair here. So they have three hairs. They got there, uh, which that's, they're looking at that as basically their only, only lead,

only lead at this point. It was in her right hand, and they did fingernail scrapings because I'm sure she was scratching. If she was pulling hair, she was scratching. Now they talk to her parents, and they say, does she have any enemies? Anybody been threatening her? Anybody scary?

Let me tell you about this old dirty man. There's an old dirty man. Well, her mom doesn't even think of the old dirty man because that happened five hours earlier at Kroger. mom says well she's got a boyfriend yeah and they go we'd love to hear about that because their first thing is any boyfriends ex-boyfriends yeah right away is she married she got yep she's got a boyfriend and they're like and by the way she he is super into satan oh that's good news so the the cops were immediate in 1992 they were like we'd love to have a chit chat with him.

We'll just string him up now. I mean, that would be good, right? I mean, Jesus, West Memphis is happening next year or so. So we got to we we have to make ourselves the worst police force in town. So they definitely like to sit him down. And so the mother, Mary, says that, yes, she's been dating this guy, Gar, Keith Harden, and that he's friends with this other guy, Jeff Clark, and that all three, Clark, Harden, and Rhonda, have all been dabbling in satanic practices, she says. Okay. So they go talk to Gar.

Yeah. They go, hey, Gar, the night of the first, where you at? What's up with that keith yeah and uh so he says well i was doing what everybody does i'm sure half the town was doing this i was hanging out of my friend jeff clark's trailer yeah drinking beer and looking for one of his escaped pet snakes awesome so who is that the most 1992 hillbilly joe dirt shit you've ever heard in your life we was just hanging around his trailer just drinking beer looking for a snake that got out Is that the most 1992 hillbilly Joe Dirt shit you've ever heard in your life? Well, he was just hanging around his trailer just drinking beer, looking for a snake that got out,

and just cleaning up the trailer trying to find him. I'm sure it was a harmless snake, right? No, no, it's venomous as hell. That's all we need to find it. It's a python. I mean, he was a big Jake the Snake fan. It's a goddamn pit viper. It's 12 feet long. I mean, he gets a hold of you.

You're in deep shit, so we should find him pretty i'm sure it's he it's one of those it's either so big that it will eat a toddler or it's just a tiny snake but it's as poisonous as it gets it'll kill you if it looks at you one of the two it can spit venom at you so he says he did that he stopped at a gas station for cigarettes that night he knows that he's then he headed home sure that's all he did that. He stopped at a gas station for cigarettes that night. He knows that. Then he headed home. Sure. That's all he did. Okay. They said, well, when's the last time you saw Rhonda?

And he said, March 27th slash 28th, the night of the 27th morning of the 28th, because I spent the night at her house. Yeah. So that's the last time I saw her. They said, well, when's the last time she was in your car? And he said, a couple months ago. Oh? She hasn't been in the car in a while.

So, yeah. They said, well well what's up with satan yeah you in the satan tell me about that and he said that he practiced for a time modern satanism which forbids blood sacrifice and killing yeah you know that's it's mainly if you've seen anything on modern satanism it's mainly not has nothing to do with modern satanism we do a lot of architecture tours we uh we run through some look at the the gothicism we do a lot of architecture tours we uh we run through some look at the the gothic buildings we do a lot of cross stitching i like to cross stitch satan's face no if you've seen like i've seen documentaries it's not not like it well it's not the same thing

that people think of satanism so i mean it's still weird i guess if you're like a mainstream person but it's definitely weird so now he also they, they said, well, what's up? Did you know she had tattoos? And he said, yeah, she had me. He tattooed the cross on her chest from her request. She said she wanted me to tattoo this cross on her chest, so I did. It's a little thing, but that was a while ago. It was a couple months ago.

And they said, okay, well, you were with your snake friend that night. We'd like to chit-chat with him. So they go talk to Jeffrey D. Wayne Clark. Of course it's D. Wayne. D. Wayne here. Jeffrey, Jeff, as he goes by. He's 21. He says he doesn't know shit about Satanism, doesn't practice it, isn't into it.

Just loves snakes. I like snakes and trailers and beer. That's it. That's all I'm into, man. I don't know nothing about Satan. That's my trifecta. That's right. I mean, he puts Satan in there. beer that's it that's all i'm into man i don't know nothing about that's my trifecta that's right i mean he put satan in there that's fine that's all right we want to do that but not my thing particularly yeah he says not into satan he said well i'm best friends with keith he's into satan but i'm not um they collected according to this

newspaper article they collected snakes knives and guns together collected snakes collected i don't think collecting is the right word for snakes probably that is traffic that's very weird that's stealing and they said they loved real super loud metal music which is 92 and they're 22 which means they were in high school in like 86 i mean yeah of course they're into metal and obviously like most of the kids were there um they said that looking around, talking to them, that Harden, their Gar, Keith, has had a fascination with Satanism and has read tons of books on it as well. So they're also aware, the investigators, by looking at his record, that Clark, Jeff Clark, the friend, has a little bit of a violent past as well. Snake guy. Snake guy has a violent past.

Shocking. Shocking, the guy who lives in a trailer with a snake has a criminal past at all. Last year, he allegedly put a loaded gun in his girlfriend's mouth and cocked the fucking hammer. That's assault. After they argued good god jeff so that was that was processing through the courts at this point so they're like so you have a you don't really have a an aversion to violence toward toward women here so let's talk about that kind of thing um now he had jeff had socialized gone out with ronda's sister michelle

at one time as well so So they all know each other. Everybody knows each other in this little area here. So they interview these kids multiple times, these guys, kids 22, 21, and they deny any involvement in the murder. They said, we were together in Louisville looking for a snake, and then we stopped at a gas station.

We still haven't found it. You guys want to lend a hand? Yeah, don't. Can you bring a dog? Can you please? Maybe he can find it but they've never they said never saw her that night don't know shit um clark jeff clark says i don't own any knives and i've never been involved in satanism so i'm out uh harden says initially denies owning a knife but then admits that he does own a knife he owns knives and is involved in satanism now enter a certain guy and we're gonna this guy oh man is there gonna be a whole lot about him later a guy named detective mark handy okay yeah yes mark handy

here um so he gets reassigned to head this investigation. He has an ability, a reputation for he's the guy that can close even the toughest murder cases. Okay. He's the guy that's going to. He's real handy. He's handy with a murder case. He's handy with an interrogation. All right. And there's guys like that in certain homicide units that they're the good interrogation guy.

But he's their hammer. He's going to go in and close this bad boy out. They're always the guy until they're the good interrogation guy there but he's there he's their hammer he's gonna go in and close this bad boy out they're always the guy until they're not that's the thing until they fuck everything up then you question every fucking thing they've done wow this guy's a trip i'll tell you about handy later so he tries to get them to confess um he gives them both polygraphs which they intentionally or voluntarily take um he tells them they failed yeah of course he did uh and i said yeah you failed the polygraph you're into satan knives tattooed her i mean i'm ready to the jury's ready to we're gonna convict tomorrow the jury's out now like it's gonna be it's guilty tomorrow so he's you know trying to pressure them and they wouldn't

they didn't they wouldn't confess they said no um handy will say later on by the way none of this is on tape they didn't record any of this shit they do just had a stenographer what else no no no no it's just on on the detective's word oh on his notes it's all up here it's all up here like a real good waiter yep i oh that scares me every time i've been a waiter you don't remember at all please you were smoke i saw you smoking a joint outside eight minutes ago you're gonna tell me you remember seven people's drink waters no somebody's just getting water when you come back and go what were you having write it down please it's no nothing against you you can do it so i've been there you can write so um, you know, they do all this shit.

Now, Handy will say later on that Harden admitted to the fact that he participated in animal sacrifice for a long time and that he has definitely, quote, wanted to wanted to, quote, do a human being. Now, like I said, this isn't recorded at all. There's no video, audio, nothing. This is just notes of the detective there. So, now, through all this, they are cooperating fully with the investigation, these boys. They don't come up

with an alibi, though, for a while. That's not good. Other than snakes at home. Is that your alibi? That's the snake. He was hiding. We play hide and seek. Come over and search because if you can find that snake. He'll tell you everything. Number one.

Plus, I'll call it a win because then I got a snake back. So it works. Now, they cooperate. They each did multiple interviews. They gave voluntary saliva, blood, hair, and pubic hair samples. So, I mean, that's all very good here. They took polygraphs, like we said, denied any involvement during the polygraphs. And a lot of times, too, for this type of thing, if you think you have the guy,

especially in 92, the polygraph is just to be able to say you failed the polygraph to see how they react to that. So the sheriffs, they're trying to get him, they'regraph to see how they react to that so the sheriffs they're trying to get him trying to get harden especially but clark too yeah to confess um at one point during the interrogation in the presence of other sheriff's office officers including uh deputies embry y and wise sheriff greer placed a pistol on the table, on the interrogation table, between himself and Hardin. Now, number one, depends on the department, but a lot of departments, you leave your gun in your desk drawer when you go in an interrogation room. Because you don't go in a tiny room with a criminal with a gun in there.

Or with a guy that you think murdered a girl. You don't bring a gun in there. He with a guy that you think murdered a girl. You don't bring a gun in there. He might be so desperate to get out of here. Not to mention, for interrogation purposes, most of the time, that's not what you want. You want to look as less, depending on the person, you want to look the least amount of authoritative as possible.

You want to not have your bad show, and if you're a detective, kind of. Bring in some McDonald's if you got it. That's what I mean. Make them comfortable. Hey, we're buddies here here i'm not some official person i'm your pal but this is a different thing they're trying to be like we're official you're fucked and you know you should be scared teenage idiots even though they're adults so um uh they did everything they they could do to to get them to confess they put the pistol on the table and said quote bad things can happen

to people who don't cooperate oh my god bad things can happen to people who don't cooperate did you just threaten to murder me there's a pistol pointed at me on the table that doesn't seem right yeah um harden continued to not confess he maintained his innocence uh there and now sheriff repeated the same thing with clark as well gun on the table bad things happen to people who don't cooperate um also they told clark that harden was cooperating with the police and implicating clark in the murder and they told harden that clark was doing the same thing oh god these are all typical strategies that usually they do with like drug murders on the street drug murders type of deal is how they deal with this so um they told him they told clark that it would be better for him if he gave a specific statement

inculpating harden they said listen we know you're not the driving force behind this he's the one going out with her he's the one into satan and he's the weirdo if he dragged you along on this tell us forced us let, forced you to participate. The two of us will lock him up. We can protect you. Yeah. Yeah, let's do this. So then that's when he placed the pistol on there and said, you might want to reconsider that or bad things can happen.

Jesus Christ, man. Because Clark said no. Is this Greer that did this or is this Andy? This is Sheriff Greer that put the gun on the table. So they search. They've got to search these kids' houses. All right. So pursuant to the search warrant, knives were found in Clark's residence, and numerous

occult items and knives were found in Hardin's residence, including the Satanic Bible, the Crystal Oracle. Who is that? I don't know. It beats me. And other books that are satan related a skull and crossbones flag oh not that there's one in my fucking garage there's giant billboards of it all over fucking las vegas what are you talking about that's the raiders yeah that's like skull and

crossbones every dick with a pool has that around their pool like they're a pirate. Or like the rat bones wheels, the paddle wheels. I know tons of kids that wore the bones. Yeah, that's 92. Everything is a fucking skull and crossbones. There's one right there. They're right on your, yes, it's right on the studio wall. My God.

So this is what I mean, how deep they're going into this. Crystal Oracleacle skull and crossbones flags a ouija board oh lock them up everybody 11 lock him up and every 11 year old girl as well who is doing that because that's the last time i played with a ouija board i think i was 11 yeah and you know and now every 32 year old girl has them on her throw pillows on her couch yeah and i arrest them all apparently lock them up um in addition to letters photographs and clothing now here's a big item they take and they're gonna make a big deal out of this oh boy a washcloth soaked in blood oh yeah um also a broken cup it's like a wine yeah well police say it's not a cup no it's a it's a

chalice oh yeah big difference between a cup and a chalice a chalice is for satanic shit a cup is just for drinking so they get this chalice and they say this broken chalice tested positive for blood oh and they're saying it's animal blood and this chalice is what harden and clark used to drink the animal blood after their animal sacrifices they're like oh it's totally animal blood probably they don't test to see which it is but they say it's animal blood and they drink from the chalice and obviously they're satanists and washcloth soaked in blood that's probably from the murder scene i'm sure it's all clean up yeah obviously um no satanic materials were seized from clark's house at all just like he said he's not into it at all but they said more than a dozen knives and machetes were at the two men's homes

which i have about 15 machetes in my house i was gonna say you can't go in a room in my house that doesn't have a terrifying weapon where you're like oh my god somewhere wow has angles and edges on it for what i don't know but they're scary and if you barely barely drop it it'll take a tree limb down they're sharp as shit too yeah so uh arrest me too i guess so they found that none of the knives by the way were determined to be linked to the murder none of them were the right size or shape or anything like that so none of that also the crime scene they got a tire cast oh from a track that was by the body that's good and the tire cast does not does not match any of the vehicles that carden or clark have access to so they clearly got rid of the knife they clearly got

rid of the car they They probably stole a car. Obviously. Satanists, I'm sure. They just hopped in a car and said, Hail Satanists! They drove down the road and grabbed Waranda. We're going to kill her and tattoo her. Get the girl that's most important to me.

But at the same time, I mean, there's no other. They do look like pretty good suspects. It's not bad. I mean, it's not bad. But I mean, they're really reaching hard on the Satan shit here. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced.

She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if

you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Now, a few weeks after the murder, the forensics report was issued, and that analyzed the hairs recovered at the autopsy. Now, back then, they didn't really get DNA off a single hair, and there's no DNA testing at all here in this case, even though it's 92. Why did we just take every piece of bodily fluid and hair off these men?

That's what I mean. To compare back then, they would microscopically compare, and they would say whether it was similar or not. The amount of people who have gone to prison over similar hair characteristics that turned out to be bullshit is staggering. That and bite marks are the two hugest ones that are really open to a lot of interpretation. So hairs are analyzed. Microscopic comparisons are made. The three hairs recovered from Rhonda's right hand. Two were gray. Oh.

They're 22 and 21. They don't got them. These guys. No gray hair either one of them. And they didn't. So they were gray. They didn't match those two. And they don't match Rhonda either because she's 19 and has longer hair um so they said the third hair was deemed similar to her own hair okay so they said the

third hair is probably hers first two are gray and don't match her um so several hairs recovered from her red sweatpants as well oh one of which was analyzed to have characteristics similar to Harden's head hair. Gar Keith Harden. So the rest of the hairs recovered from the pants were not microscopically similar to the victim Harden or Clark. OK, you know, you don't know other hairs. Yeah. Now, Harden again said he last saw her 27 March 27 spent the night at her house. Last saw her 27 March 27 spent the night at her house. Her mother, Mary Rhonda's mother, said that the red sweatpants that she was wearing at the time of her death had been laundered that night.

Oh, they were clean. Yeah. The mother said those were my sweatpants. She was borrowing them. I just washed them. OK, so that there wouldn't be old hairs on. That is what she's saying. So the state said the presence of one of her hairs on freshly washed pants doesn't jibe with his saying you didn't see her for five days.

How did your hair get on her freshly washed pants then? Which is a tough. Yeah. It's a tough. If it's similar. It's a tough bill to swallow. It's not necessarily his hair is the other part. That's. You know what I mean?

Yeah. It's similar. That's all they have. So the physical evidence they also have is a fingerprint as well. They have a single fingerprint matching Rhonda, which was taken from the interior back passenger seat window of Clark's car. Of Clark's car, not of Harden's car. Of Clark's car. That's why she hasn't been in Clark's car in months.

Right. So the one hair, obviously the one hair, and the fingerprint, it's definitely her, obviously. That they know for a fact. And so she said she, and they said she'd been in the car on a number of occasions, but not for a couple months. Now the state tries to assert here that the print was fresh.

They said this is more of a fresh print, which. How do you know? That's the problem. How the fuck do you know that's tough so is there is there an expiration date on those that's what i mean but he said that clark said she hasn't been in the car since december of 91 okay it's been a minute it's been a minute so um yeah and the uh the fingerprint can't be time dated but they said it looked fresher is what the state said enter amy remsburg she's going to come up quite a bit

but amy remsburg who is a former girlfriend of clark ex-girlfriend of the snake man jeff clark here now she tells police that clark and harden had sacrificed a dog and a cat during a satanic ritual oh that she's aware of, that she knows of, that Clark told her that he wanted to kill a human to see if he could get away with it, and that Hardin said he wants to do a human, he's hired all this animal sacrifice, and that Clark had told her that he knew the best way to kill somebody with a knife and had demonstrated on the back of her neck where to do it. That would cut your brain stem.

Okay. Now, the sheriff asked Remsburg whether Clark ever mentioned killing a person specifically by severing her brain stem, and Remsburg said yes. That's what he said. He said he stabbed in the back of the neck and it severs the brain stem. So, yeah, that's not good. No. That sounds terrible, all of that that's damn it that doesn't sound good at all they were like hey we're just innocent kids just like metal and then she's

like no they cut shit up all the time it's they kill things they kill things uh next up hope jaggers um she is ronda's best friend kind of the year before she died here she says that um at one point ronda thought she was pregnant in the last few months and that harden had told her when ronda told gar keith about this yeah had told her quote if you are pregnant i will kill you and that fucking baby that's what unquote young men say yes well not if they're not assholes. Yeah. He's 22. He's not fucking 16. But if you are pregnant, I'll kill you and that fucking baby. I mean, context is everything.

He might think that, but that's not what you say. Perhaps he was drunk. Maybe he was giggling. Who knows? He was real busy looking for a snake. He's like, what? Hold on. If you are pregnant, I'll kill you and that fucking baby

come here where are you hey damien come on so yes he's a big jake the snake fan so that's crazy she also jaggers said that she once saw ronda cut her fingertips with a razor and rubbed the blood on Hardin because he liked blood. It's his favorite. Maybe she was just checking her blood sugar. I was like, I got extra for you, sweetie. I don't know. However, when she was asked whether either Hardin or Clark was involved in Satanism,

she said she had never seen them involved in any way. She was her friend, not their friend. So, you know, that was just what she got from Rhonda um so she uh um we'll talk about that she also said that she and warford had a couple of times met a man at the grocery store parking lot in the kroger parking lot named james that they had gone and partied with him a few times. So it's not a good decision, by the way. If you're a young lady, probably don't pick some dude out in a grocery store parking lot

and just go to his house. That's probably scary. Allow him to buy it and then fucking take off. Then go. So another guy comes in here. Now, this is Sean Lee Mattingly, like Don Mattingly. This is a co-worker of Clark, of Jeff Clark. He says that Clark almost always carried a pocket knife with him for use at work. like Don Mattingly. This is a co-worker of Clark, of Jeff Clark.

He says that Clark almost always carried a pocket knife with him for use at work, which I've worked in a warehouse. You always have three box cutters on you. And that he had heard from someone else that Clark had a knife that the other person referred to as a, quote, sacrifice knife. Okay.

I don't know what that means. Very holy knife. But he's got a sacrifice knife, apparently. Mattingly also said Clark had talked about a sacrifice of an animal in the front of a church. Okay. And he talked about how they sacrificed an animal out in front of a church. Oh, they did the sacrifice at the church? At the church, yeah.

The conversation wasn't there. No, no, no. The event was there. The event was there. They talked at work about sacrificing animals at At the church, yeah. The conversation wasn't there. No, no, no. The event was there. The event was there. Oh, my. They talked at work about sacrificing animals at church. Oh. Okay.

That's a big fuck you to God, isn't it? That's a little weird here. Now, there's another thing here. Now, they're going to arrest these two, but they're going to wait a second to charge them, but they're going to go ahead and bring them in and arrest them okay so right away they're putting a cell there's a cellmate named clifford caps yeah he shared a cell with clark and uh are they charged with the murder on the they haven't charged them yet they're gonna we're gonna wait a second on suspicion on a humble and then they'll see what's going on yeah they think they did it but they're gonna arrest them

and then they have a couple days to do the charges and all that kind of shit. So this guy claims that basically Clark came in and just started confessing immediately. Oh, he said he confessed twice to the murder, once jokingly. And then when he saw that the guy wasn't horrified, then he seriously a little while later, he said, actually, I did do that and started telling him about it. So, yeah, they talked about that. They're talking about they look at it and they said, OK, various witnesses show they have an interest in knives, access to this young lady. They're both involved in Satanism. And they both the kids have made some false statements to law enforcement.

They said they didn't have knives and they had knives. That looks bad. You know, all of that kind of thing. So the theory is that Harden and Clark picked up Rhonda near her home at about 1230, drove out to Brandenburg and stabbed her repeatedly. And we're back home in Louisville by 4 a.m. OK, that's the it's about an hour, like we said, 50 minutes. So that's the theory the cops have.

They said, you know, they're involved in all this type of shit. Satanic ritual is the motive for murder is what they said. That's their motive, satanic worship. It's a tough one to prove. Well, they're going to go for the death penalty. Wait till you hear this shit. This is wild, okay? They're going to go for the extreme one.

Well, wait till you hear why okay the basis of it because it has to be like four you know an extra aggravator okay now the they say that the um the now they they get lawyers right away and their lawyers are saying we'll know who the true perpetrator is when we find out who those two gray hairs belong to right that's the perpetrator because that's who she grabbed it from right so the one on her sweatpants is irrelevant matter to anything um now the state said those hairs could have very easily belonged to the sheriff no same length gray hair and the sheriff's losing his hair sometimes he likes to just rub the hands of a corpse he does that so well when he sees a body he goes oh man he rubs his hands through his hair and it's always a few fall out he's starting to

he's receding some so you, you know how that goes. So they argued those shares probably belong to the sheriff. Don't worry about those hairs. Wow. The important hair is the one on her sweatpants that matches his head. The stray one on the pants, that's the culprit. That's the one. Not the ones in the hand.

Not the one in the hand. Those belong to one's her own and the other two of the sheriff. It fell in there. So, I mean, if it is the sheriff's, that's fine. He's just dropping them. So, yeah, they want the death penalty because of the satanic angle okay um the mead county prosecutor says that he realized he might have might have a hard time proving that they committed this as a satanic ritual but they said they this is uh kenton r smith definitely have to give these people's names here. This is the Commonwealth attorney of Kentucky.

He said he's going to argue that they murdered this woman for, quote, other profit. Now, profit is one of the death penalty. They're saying the other profit is psychological gratification. That's all you got to gain. Which I think that's a lot of murders. Yeah, that doesn't count. Which I think that's every, that's a lot of murders. Yeah.

Yeah, that doesn't count. So under the state's capital murder statute, the death penalty can be sought when the murder is committed under aggravating circumstances, one of which is for the purpose of receiving money or anything of monetary value or for other profit. They're saying that other profit is forever life. Well, yeah, wait till you hear about the exact things here um the smith the prosecutor acknowledged that he doesn't know quote if this case is going to fit the law or not i've got to learn a lot more about satanism before this comes to trial holy how about do that before you seek death penalties that would be the thing to do know what you're talking about before you try to kill somebody most courts have interpreted profit to mean financial gain or other, you know, material goods.

Somehow you to benefit your economical situation. Yeah. Smith says we're basing the fact that this is a capital case on the evidence that we have that this would be a sacrificial type of killing and done for that type of human satisfaction yeah because his economical situation is the thereafter it has nothing to do with today satanists don't give a fuck about here that's profit that's now we're talking profit down the road here getting his house in the thereafter see what i mean jesus christ the whole thing's crazy so they said one particular wound caught the investigators attention that's the brain stem punctured with two deep jabs to the back of the neck in the same way that satanists are known to kill small animals as sacrifices so you know how you like stab a lobster and cut the thing down same thing or like a like a pig farmer with that

bolt yeah same thing that's the way you sacrifice an animal or you know if you have a raccoon pinned Stab a lobster and cut the thing down. Same thing. Or like a pig farmer with that bolt. Yeah, same thing. That's the way you sacrifice an animal. Or if you have a raccoon pinned down, you stab him in the brainstem. It's misery fast. It's not. It's not. The act of killing isn't the enjoyment.

It's to get rid of it. And then we benefit. And it paralyzes them right away. No twitching around. But fucking 11 stab wounds and slice in the throat. And then brainstem. Seems like a lot. They also get an expert in here.

This is Corporal Mike Helm of the New Albany, Indiana Police Department. Oh, he's an expert. Not involved in this case anymore, but he has taken more than 35 training courses on ritualistic homicide. He really wants to know look up on youtube like satanic like panic you know this is what's out there like public service things for satanism shit in the early 90s the guy they're hilarious they're so ridiculous they didn't know what they were talking about and that's what this guy said through 35 35 he said that quote tattoos and marks will be placed on the left side of the body it symbol symbolizes the reverse of Christianity.

The inverted cross is the same way. Okay. That's what he said. So this is all, they tattooed this cross on her on purpose before they killed her, based on the fact that that's Satan shit. So the defense, Harden's lawyer, said to him it was a, quote, absolute surprise that they were indicted for capital murder yeah but that was crazy and uh the lawyer this lawyer who the bart adams who

defended clark called the indictment utterly ridiculous and uh hardens lawyer denies the men were deeply involved in satanic worship he says quote there's a lot of people that dabble in a lot of things that doesn't make them murderers, which is fair. Yeah. Now, yeah. So the actual law here, the University of Kentucky law professor here that they talk to, who specializes in death penalty litigation, noted the U.S. Supreme Court recently ruled at that time that even if someone is affiliated with an offensive group, that's no basis for the death penalty. Now, the ruling comes down on this. The circuit court judge, Sam Monarch, rejects this and amends the charge to murder and complicity to murder rather than murder for profit.

So it's not a death penalty case. They strike it down. You can't fucking do that. And they free Harden and Clarkark on fifty thousand dollar cash and property bonds oh which to me that seems weird if you in you've been arrested for murder i don't care if satan's involved or not if they think you killed a 19 year old woman you don't say all right now get on out there fellas and live your life and a minute ago we were gonna fucking open you and in the public square but now uh we've got we got some clarification

go on homeboy now don't you have a snake to find he ain't gonna find himself ain't gonna find him sitting here now are you get on out there he won't crawl back in that cage go get him holy shit so over the next two and a half three years this is waiting for a trial. Oh, my God. Finally, in 1995, the trial comes around here. By the way, April 2nd, the parents put out every anniversary of her death and her birthday. They put a notice in the newspaper. Very nice. Saying, here's one from April 2nd, 1995, in the Courier Journal.

Which, by the way, Courier Journal, a lot of good information in there on this story. Good job, Courier Journal. I think I've heard of it before. Yeah, we've used it before. The Louisville Courier Journal, which, by the way, Courier Journal, a lot of good information in there on this story. Good job, Courier Journal. I think I've heard of it before. Yeah, we've used it before, the Louisville Courier Journal. So this is April 2nd, 1995, in memory of Rhonda Sue Warford and April 2nd, 1992. It has been three years ago that you went away.

We miss you more and more every day. We love you so very much. You will always live in our hearts. We will never forget the wonderful memories you gave us rest in peace our angel sadly missed by mother father sisters brother cousins aunts uncles nieces nephews friends and neighbors entire fucking family everybody apparently here now the police or the prosecution offer them plea deals smith the prosecutor offered them plea agreements. He wanted to put them in the electric chair. Then he's

like, well, we can plea this out. And they say, no, we're not taking plea agreements. So the lawyer, Clark's lawyer, says, if you're innocent, why do you need to do 10 years? I'm not doing it, which is what everybody says when they don't want to take a deal, too. So everybody's saying what they should be saying, essentially

here. So we don't know what's going on. Trial comes along. Maybe that'll clear everything up, hopefully. It's a trial. That's the point. Let's put all the evidence on the table. We'll have 12 people look at it. Have a judge fucking referee the thing, and we'll talk about it.

We'll get 12 opinions. 12 opinions. So the trial, they're tried together. They're tried together. They stick together the whole time. They're tried together. Oh. They're tried together.

They stick together the whole time. So opening statements, the prosecutor uses a plastic model of a skull to show the brainstem injuries. He said in his opening statement that the last stab wound Warford received in the back of her head severed her brainstem and was immediately fatal. stem and was immediately fatal. So he also points out conflicting statements that the two men, Harden and Clark gave about whether they own knives, um, and about Harden's conflicting statements about when he stopped practicing Satanism. Also told the jurors that the two men had waited a month to give police their

alibi. Like, Oh, this sounds not good. So yeah, he said, quote, the only reasonable conclusion can be that these two people are guilty as charged.

But you don't have any proof of actual murder, but you have all the circumstantial shit that makes it really look bad for them. Right. I mean, so it's it's a tough case. That's a tough one for everybody. The defense, their lawyer, Harden and and Clark's lawyers. and Clark's lawyers, one lawyer told the jurors that they were going to present witnesses, including the boy's parents who saw them at a Louisville gas station and,

and in their homes at times that make it impossible for them to also been in Brandenburg out there. They also said that their witnesses will tell how investigators ignored other suspects, including an ex boyfriend of Warford, and that they said they'll talk about, the lawyer said Harden's going to testify. So right in the beginning, he says they're going to testify. They're going to hear it right from them, which lawyers never say that. They usually wait until-

They wait until they find out if the chess piece needs to be played. Exactly. And they said, no, no, they'll testify. And he says Harden's going to talk about his, he'll tell you all about his involvement in satanic practices, to the point where, quote, you'll know more than you ever wanted to know we're gonna make you uncomfortable as fuck around here which is another strategy rather than keep it like hidden as far as this thing that he's whispered about make it so boring yeah put it out and make it so much where people like i'm tired of hearing about satan and satan satan satan it's all i hear about i'm not even scared anymore yeah

it doesn't even sound scary um other witnesses will testify he says about how a real satanic killing differs from warford's murder including how satanic killing requires a trophy body part from the victim oh so the doing a human statement that's a bad one that doesn't help keeps coming back um they get not only they're they not only do they get handy detective handy they also have another witness that says that clark wanted to see if he could get away with killing someone that's that ex-girlfriend there we talked about um or the other lady and that um he had grown tired of killing small animals for satanic practices and wanted to do a human yeah that doesn't sound good so the commonwealth attorney here smith he tells the jury that a broken cup seized from the

bedroom was a chalice from which both defendants drank the blood of ritually sacrificed animals to quote enhance their standing with lucifer right you gotta move up that corporate ladder the satanic corporate ladder is a very very difficult thing negotiate. There's a lot of politics involved in it. Give a fuck about an NBA. It's a lot of golf games and free martini lunches. You know what I mean? That's really what it's all about with the, you know, enhancing your standing within Lucifer's corporate organization. It's very difficult. corporate organization it's very difficult um smith also told the jury that harden lied when he claimed he had cut his hand when he dropped the cup he says the blood on the washcloth is mine and the blood in the cup is mine not an animal's and that's not ronda's he said because i dropped the cup broke it cut my hand and covered it with a washcloth that's his story that's but that also sounds very convenient yeah oh so there's all this blood and it's yours it's a very easy solution to exactly wash away a murder friend

that's the thing so the state satanic uh expert that they bring in here says that the murder does not appear to be a satanic ritual sacrifice it might have been some like amateurs trying to do it but this isn't like the work of like a a really you know top tier organ this isn't like a an a1 fortune 500 satanic corporate structure here this is whatever these people were we're not at the retreat with us it's like a it's like a satanic bodega is what they're running it's very low low level low rent low rent it's not exactly that big of a deal. That's ballsy as shit to be an amateur and kidnapping a 19-year-old and then destroying her like this. Ripping her apart.

But that's the motive they have is Satanism. They don't have any other motive. Holy shit. They have to go with that. So the hair, okay? Crime laboratory analysts reported that the hair found on the sweatpants is similar in color and microscopic characteristics to Harden's hair. And like we said, Mary Warford, she testified, said the sweatpants were hers. She washed them.

And then now the hair's on there. So that's a big deal. Amy Remsburg testifies. Oh, boy. That's not good at all. Tells the jury he's involved in satanic worship. Clark was. She told him that he owned several knives and guns and that he had an inverted cross tattooed on his shoulder as well.

They've got matching tats. But the problem is Clark, Jeff Clark, later on when he testifies, they make him take his shirt off. He doesn't have any tattoos. There's no tattoo. Oh, Amy, you lying bitch. So, I mean, that could be a mistake though. Yeah.

So she also testified that Clark once told her it would be a challenge to see if he could commit murder and get away with it. And that he explained how a person could be killed with the stab wound to the base of the skull. Like we talked about, she also testified thatark took her to an area where he claimed a number of animal sacrifices had been made and it was out in that area that's where they go to kill things so um now the defense presents evidence that the remsburg gave a tape recorded interview to police shortly after the crime which police specifically asked whether cl Clark had ever discussed the brainstem.

And she and then she admitted, yes, I didn't say that till after the cop said it. But because I didn't remember the term. And then they said brainstem. And I went, that's what it is. Brainstem. Yeah, that's what he said. That's her thing there. Now, the Warford family almost gets kicked out of the court here.

Really? It's sad because it's it's shit. They can't help but they want closure for god's sake the the judge at one point during closing arguments had to stop kick the jury out and tell the warford family and friends that you can't cry in front of the jury like this because they're sobbing you can't do this shit he said that because most of they all started crying when they pulled out the sweatpants. Yeah.

And they were graphically describing the murder to the jury. And Monarch, the judge, said, I can't let you just sit there and cry in front of the jury. They can't make a decision based on feeling sorry for you. Right. Put the Kleenex away and dry your eyes or please get up and go out if you can't control yourself. We're in a fucking court of law. I mean, we feel bad for you, but this honestly has nothing to do with you this is yeah this is a trial right this is there's no feelings in law no law is law exactly this is a trial somebody's dead we'll worry about that

yeah put the kleenex away dry your eyes or get the fuck out of here fascinating that's wild so the relatives dried their eyes and clammed up, and they remained in the courtroom. So, I mean, that's hard. It's hard for everybody there. It's tough for the victim's family. So they, through this whole thing here, the trial testimony showed that they don't have any physical evidence

other than that hair and that fingerprint. It's really all they have. They never found a murder weapon. The tire cast didn't match anything that they did so they don't know, they don't know what to do. The defense for this whole thing,

they have a, basically they have one witness because they have to basically prove that they have an alibi. Right. Otherwise, because it's just, they look so bad for them.

They have a Chevron clerk. Okay. That, a guy who worked for chevron in louisville who testified he recalled seeing clark come in to buy cigarettes within an hour or two after uh warford would have left her home so one two in the morning 1 30 2 30 impossible to be out there couldn't have been all the way out over here he said no they could have held her who knows they said that um the clerk said that he remembers a hostile exchange of words between

clark and some other youths that were hanging out at the store that's why he remembers he was there because he got into some beef with some other kids at the store okay so that's why he remembered him um which is interesting here so like we said, Harden and Clark both testify. They say what they try. And then it's your word against theirs. There's not a lot of evidence except for the few things and connotations. And the verdict comes back, both guilty. Holy.

So both guilty. Got them. Yeah. Justice served. Apparently so. They were crying um obviously the mother apparently the mother um when they found him guilty yeah mary ronda's mom was started yelling at keith started screaming no keith no like you motherfucker you son of a son of a bitch again and again and about a half dozen of the friends and relatives yanked her out and pulled her out of the courtroom because she was getting real mouthy.

You know, because who wouldn't? Rightfully so. Rightfully so. So they said that she always had a little bit of doubt in her mind about Hardin is what the sister, Rhonda's sister, said about her mom. Really? She always was worried about Harden. She didn't like him. Didn't like him.

Yeah. The satanic thing and all that shit. So they said they didn't care because the family, the Harden and Clark families, were very sad. And the Warford family, one of the sisters said, now they know how we feel. We'll never get to see our sister again. Now they got what they deserve.

Jesus. You're right. I mean's yeah, that's life. I'm a little cold. It feels cold, but it's also how you'd feel when someone murders your family. So the defense attorney here said, quote, I'm very upset about the verdict in this case. That's all he said. Now, before sentencing, the defense says we have new evidence. OK, that is exculpatory. Defense says defense says that. So you might want to listen to us before sentencing, the defense says we have new evidence. Okay. That is exculpatory.

The defense says that. The defense says that. So you might want to listen to us before sentencing here. Yeah. So, yeah, he says that they asked for a new trial before sentencing. Really? After they were found guilty. Is that good of evidence?

Apparently it's great from what they think. They said that the evidence was a letter from a former Meade County inmate who testified that Clark confessed its caps. The guy who wrote the letter said that he confessed to him twice. So the defense lawyers said that the letter sounded as if the former inmate was asking another potential witness to lie. It's a letter that this inmate wrote to another witness, to another person there. They said they could have used the letter to challenge credibility, but they didn't learn about it till after the trial. Because one of the state's witnesses was this Caps guy saying he confessed to me in jail, but they have a letter saying that they have a letter where Caps is asking someone to lie, is what the defense is saying. So their

motions include affidavits from a guy named Kevin Justice, to whom the letter was sent, affidavits from a guy named Kevin Justice, to whom the letter was sent, and a public defender in Colorado. They swore they had conversations with the sheriff about the letter in 92 and 93, and that Greer, the sheriff, acknowledged to the public defender in 93 that he was aware of the letter, but that the defense never got a hold of it. So they didn't offer it in discovery, which is, you got to do that. That's questionable. That's part of that. Now, the Commonwealth attorney, Smith, he said that he had provided justice's name to the defense, the guy who got the letter. And the defense's interpretation of the letter requires, quote, a tremendous leap of faith. It doesn't say, hey, let's go lie.

Let's make something up. I understand that desperate people do desperate things. This letter is the best hill of beans they can come up with knowledge or possession of the letter in question during or prior to the trial. So they noted, the judge noted that during the interview with Greer and other law enforcement officials, justice, the one guy said that his mother had the original and that he had never given a copy to Greer. So also the judge notes that the justice guy later recanted a statement about the letter. So it's all a big, confusing mess.

So sentencing comes around. Oh, God. Here we go. The Smith, the Commonwealth's attorney, described Warford's death as a totally senseless killing. I don't think you can argue with that. That's pretty fair. He said, you and I don't do anything to Keith Harden, to the Keith Harden's and Jeff Clark's of the world. They punch their ticket. They take their chances and they live the life they choose.

That's fair. Most of Clark's family had left during the deliberation of the sentence here. And Harden's family declined to comment as they left, except for one woman in her and his family who wouldn't give her name. to comment as they left, except for one woman in his family who wouldn't give her name, but she said that the jury bases its decision on, quote, on sympathy. There's no justice down here. Okay. That's what she said. So the judge says, you, sirs, the jury, and then the judge, you, sirs, may fuck off.

Yeah. Life in prison for both of you. Wow. Two lives. Get in there, fuckers. So that's that for them. Done. Done and done. We solved it. You would think for both of you. Wow. Two lives. Get in there, fuckers. So that's that for them. Done. Done and done.

We solved it. You would think. It's over. But it's a little early in this episode. Sure is. A little early for it to be solved and over. Get some time to fill. That's right.

That's because some weird shit goes on now. Oh, boy. Oh, by the way, September 10th on her birthday, happy heavenly birthday to sweet angel up above. She looks down on the one she loves on the ones she loves we love you sweetheart we miss you very much on your 23rd birthday jesus christ that's fucking sad man that's they've got to put this they're communicating to this every time april april 2nd 96 four years ago today you were taken away from us it's they do it every year that they're going through this they're in horrible pain were taken away from us it's they do it every year that

they're going through this they're in horrible pain these people it's a it's awful nobody i have a 21 year old daughter you know i get it no one wants to lose a kid that age they're not a kid anymore but they're still a kid to you right and facebook doesn't exist so they've got to do a newspaper god they put it in the newspaper oh shit so no likes either that way no you don't get you don't get the instant gratification of that people talking to you make you feel better a little bit you don't get the care icon no nothing can't get a heart out of you can't get a smiley face hugging a heart god damn it jesus this is terrible so time goes by yeah from 95 so. So they were out on bail until the 95 trial. They're in jail.

2009 comes around. Oh, dear Lord. So 14 years. These boys have been living it. Oh, living it hard. And the Innocence Project Incorporated and the Department of Public Advocacy, Kentucky Innocence Project. They do good work.

So all these innocence projects uh they agreed to represent harden and clark respectively to secure dna testing of the hairs oh great found on the fucking victim yeah in 92 they could have it was a little different because you needed more of a sample but sometime before between then and 2009 it's been very available to test this shit and now by then shit you can fart in california they can test the wind in virginia and find it you watch like on patrol like in south carolina they have a crazy dna testing lab they said we're like if somebody comes in and you know robs a convenience store they literally go what did they touch and be like oh he hit he touched that thing grab that

we'll dna swipe it we'll figure out it's like what are you kidding me did they fog up the door we can get in that way. That's wild. Back then, they had whole hairs, a washcloth full of blood, and they were like, man, hairs and blood. I don't know. Oof. That's pretty gross.

Washcloth full of blood. They're like, shit. They go, gross. Wish I knew which body that went to. That's disgusting. Look at that. I wonder who that came out of. Shit.

In 92, they're like, don't touch it. You'll get AIDS. Yeah, you'll get it. Yeah, you'll get it. Now, you will get AIDS, so watch out. It's true. Don't DNA test it. Also, they're going to test the fingernail scrapings, because that'll tell you a lot. Yeah.

She's not scraping up anybody. She's not attacking. So that tells you a lot. The Innocence Project believes DNA testing has the potential to identify a different perpetrator. And we'll talk about who that perpetrator is. As long as they have it. Well, it's a specific person. Okay.

They said that, and if it's not this person that they're talking about, that it could be this DNA could obviously then be compared to the Kentucky and FBI DNA databases. Maybe we got somebody. Yeah, because they're figuring that someone who did this. Oh, God, they've done so much worse. They didn't just go, well, I retire from violence. I'm all done now. There's more.

So this person's DNA is probably on file somewhere at this point. Hopefully, unless they were killed. Real damn good at this for a long time. A village of people with pitchforks and torches. I almost said titforks. Titforks. Titforks are attacking. Oh, the villagers have their titforks out.

Watch out. Titforks and buttplugs. Oh, man. Watch out. Titforks, buttplugs. Buttplugs. Buttplugs. God, I can't talk today.

Fuck my stupid tongue, as I've said before. And, of course, satanic corporate ladders that you need to climb. There's a lot going on here. So the Innocence Project, obviously, gets possession of evidence containing this other suspect's DNA and proposes the testing be done, obviously, at a fully accredited private DNA lab. Not the state, because they don't trust Kentucky, apparently. And we'll tell you why in a minute here. They offer to Innocence Project offers to cover all the costs of the testing. And by the way, at that point,

they find that the fingernail scrapings cannot be located. What the fuck? Fucking state lost the fingernail scrapings. You dipshits. It's a murder. Hang on to those for so long. Dipshits. The scrapings are the big one.

That's the big one. That's where you're going to find it all. So, yeah, the hairs could be the sheriff's. Scrapings, that's not the sheriff probably. Now, the alternate suspect that they're specifically talking about is one of Rhonda's ex-boyfriends. He is named James Whitley, and in 1992, he was about 33, 34 years old. What? That's one of her ex-boyfriend. Okay. He is named James Whitley, and in 1992, he was about 33, 34 years old. What? That's one of her ex-boyfriends.

Really? A little bit older. Oh, by the way, has salt and pepper hair. Oh, already? Yeah. Oh, boy. This is early gray, or prematurely graying here. So apparently, they have a testimony here, an affidavit and a whole deal from a person named aletha madison aletha madison who's

a good friend of ronda she says that um she claimed to have said that um that she meaning ronda used to spend time with whitley and another friend named Pamela Gibson. Now, shortly after Rhonda died, this Pamela Gibson told Aletha Madison that James Whitley had confessed to her that he committed the murder. This apparently Whitley had told Gibson that he picked up Warford from the Kroger parking lot and took her to a field in Meade County, which is where she was. from the Kroger parking lot and took her to a field in Meade County, which is where she was. He said that the whole thing was it wasn't sexual. It wasn't anything like that. They were hanging out, and they got into an alter.

They got into a fight. Yeah. And I guess Rhonda had threatened to report his behavior to his parole officer. Oh, shit. Which he became enraged and stabbed her and killed her. He hit her and she's like, you're going to jail, motherfucker. I'm going to tell your parole officer. And he said, no, you're not. Huh.

And I'll stab you 11 times. And that was his story to this gal. That was his story. She's reporting it. Yes. Okay. So in 2009, this Aletha Madison further stated that although Whitley was in his early 30s, he had gray hair.

And in 2009, he was on probation and lived outskirts of Meade County. So he's still around to pick up. He's even on probation. He can't go anywhere. You can grab him like that. He doesn't have any rights. You can literally just go to his house at this point.

So he's not on parole. He's on probation, but still, he's in the system. You're allowed to be there. You're allowed to go take a look. He also has a real long record. Still. Convicted felon.

Yeah. Long criminal record including convictions for drug possession, assault, harassment and domestic violence. Pretty decent dude. He sounds like a great guy.

Top notch and he was 33 years old. Sounds like the exact guy you want your teenage daughter to go out with, doesn't it? Wouldn't you set her up with him? Yeah, he's a nice boy. If I'm mom, I'm thrilled'm thrilled she's dating harden jesus christ this is a huge step up so tell me about satan yeah that's what i'd be saying make him a pie tell me all about him

at least you're 22 and not 34 this sounds good good lord holy shit so they want to do all this dna testing which seems extremely reasonable, right? I mean, obviously. Well, the Commonwealth of Kentucky rejects the Innocence Project request to release the evidence for DNA testing. How? Under what? Well, in July 2009, they filed motions, this is

Hardin and Clark and the Meade County Circuit Court, seeking release of evidence for the testing, which they anticipated filing motions to vacate their convictions. Also, after that, in an order entered January 10th, 14th, 2010, the Meade Circuit Court found that it did have the authority to grant DNA testing on grounds that a court always has the inherent authority to correct a manifest injustice.

Yeah. In determining whether a manifest injustice occurred, the trial court considered whether the information now available through DNA testing quote, constitutes new evidence which could reasonably have affected the outcome of the trial. Right, but if we do that, then we've got to pay to DNA

test this, and then when they're innocent, we've got to pay them more. I can't do that. Well, the Innocence Project will pay for the testing. Okay, that's nice. But then you're going gonna get a lawsuit holy mother fuck two of them so but it's it's got to be they're interpreting it through this very specific prism of the law of this new evidence which could be reasonably of effect of the outcome of the trial which to me i think dna that says that it's not them will affect a lot well i just think if you if you're convicted and there's no dna proving that you did it it's your burden to prove yeah so and if you're so fucking confident

let them test it but after you're convicted it's no longer the state's burden anymore now it's on you to prove that all the shit you need to prove they need to prove yep that's what it is it's a weak ass proof they're no longer under that anymore. I like that. It's hard. It's hard to unring a bell. When you convict someone, you're ringing a bell. And to get them out of it, it's unringing a bell. It's a lot of hoops to jump through.

That's weaker than Mike's hard lemonade, son. That's rough. So the court denied the motion. Denied the motion. I can't believe it. This is the second denial. That was 2009 and 10. I am shocked. And this is the second denial 2009 and 10 i am shocked and this is

what they said in part quote regardless of the failure of the gray hairs to match miss uh ms warford mr clark or mr harden the subject hairs and the alternate perpetrator theory is not new to either defendant um to now identify the source of those hairs would not be a new breath of fresh air for either Mr. Clark or Mr. Harden and would certainly not serve to exonerate either of them. I don't know what if you have no physical. See, this is a weird thing. Maybe not now, but during the trial when they had zero zilch physical evidence except a hair that they said belonged to Harden. Yeah. If you throw a hair in that doesn't belong to them that's certainly a shadow of a doubt well i mean suppose that hair

comes back dna not being hardened and those other hairs come back being a guy who people said confessed to the crime right if that comes out in a trial do you think they're convicted there's no way probably not possible i'd say that's a reasonable doubt right but the other part but they're what the judge is saying or whoever fucking denied that is saying they're saying it just because that hair belongs to maybe someone else doesn't mean they weren't there he said he's trying to say that just means there was a third person doesn't mean they're specifically what the fuck are you talking about looking at it through a very narrow like i said it's a sliver it's a little sliver of the law that they have

to that's how they that's how these appeals work it's really crazy it has to be within the scope of exactly what it's crazy and granted uh 40 years hindsight is is another thing too that we have the benefit of that it's pretty fucking obvious at least these boys weren't even there so i would certainly not serve to exonerate either of them. This is particularly true when one considers the fact that the jury who convicted the defendants knew that the hairs were from an unidentified source, but nevertheless found sufficient evidence to elsewhere a judge, Mr. Clark and Hardin, to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. OK, because the state just explained it away as it could happen in the medical, you know, in the in the investigation. We said it was the sheriff, for God's sake. Exactly. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell.

She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened.

And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining wondery plus so it says in summary this court finds that there's nothing new to be learned from dna analysis that could exculpate either defendant after carefully considering the fact the facts applicable to the current motions the court finds there's no evidence that any injustice has occurred none Holy. None. So, denied. The trial court denies the motion for release of evidence of analysis, and there you go.

So, they appealed the ruling to the Court of Appeals, and here's the appeal of the denial. This is all a trip to me. There's a huge crazy shit coming, by the way. I believe it. You definitely want to stick around for this because it's wow. So on appeal, they argue Harden and Clark, the DNA testing methods now available could conclusively identify the source of the hairs found in her hand, thereby establishing their innocence, obviously, and identifying the perpetrator to birds. So they contend that the results of DNA testing will constitute newly discovered evidence.

Like we said before, they asked the court to reverse the Meade Circuit Court's denial of DNA testing. They asked for an order directing the Commonwealth to release the hairs to a fully accredited private lab for DNA testing to be paid for by the Innocence Project. And three, an order directing the Meade County Court, Meade Circuit Court Clerk, the Commonwealth Attorney's Office in Meade County, the Meade County Sheriff's Office, and the Kentucky State Crime Laboratory, and the Meade County Coroner, and any other agencies that at any time

maintain possession of the physical evidence in this case to perform a physical search for the victim's fingernail scrapings collected during the autopsy. Find the fucking evidence. Where is all this shit? For Christ's sake. You're responsible for hanging on to that shit. Like, it's just part of it. So the Commonwealth urges the court to reject this request.

Commonwealth argues that this particular law only provides for post-conviction dna testing in capital cases this isn't a capital case remember so we don't have to bother anymore so who cares they got life it's fine they'll be fine in there we'll take care of them yeah if they work out they watch tv don't worry about it that's what they're saying basically so well they could be guilty and we're not true we don't know it's just they didn't have good evidence it doesn't mean they're innocent so far you can't do that to people though show's not over you never know but either way this is terrible this is horrible the commonwealth further argues that the statute they're talking about notwithstanding the trial court properly

denied the motion on grounds that no manifest injustice would result from the denial of testing as the results of testing would not exonerate the appellants but would at best implicate a third party which to me is important yeah was even if they think okay these two definitely did it was a third party there gets get them to someone else was participating in a horrible fucking murder maybe let's have a chit chat with that guy and put him in jail what do you say bath of a 19 year old in the middle of the? Maybe let's have a chit-chat with that guy and put him in jail. What do you say? A bloodbath of a 19-year-old in the middle of the fucking woods? Let's get every person that was there. Let's get tire casts and find out if those match, too.

Let's see if this person, let's figure it out. So while provides for post-conviction DNA testing for capital defendants, Kentucky has no statutory procedure regarding DNA testing for non-capital defendants. It's only in death penalty cases, because that was like triage. We need to get that passed. We've got to make sure that that is real. Yeah. So the United States Supreme Court has recognized a limited procedural due process right

for defendants to secure post-conviction DNA testing to prove their innocence. This drives me crazy. DNA test everything. Go back through your, go into your shit, start in 1960 and just run everything through the machine. I don't give a fuck what it is. Just run it all through and we'll see if we'll wear, let's get

a scorecard and we'll see how bad we've messed up over the years. Because I think we might owe some apologies. We might owe some other people some jail time. Let's figure it out. let's audit our system here like this yeah you'll you'll go count my money over and over and over again until my taxes are right yeah let's do this no shit so the they talk about this is based on some other case called uh betting field that's the the statute or the precedence of this whole thing so the uh they say while the appellants in the present case wish to pursue the same procedural path approved by

this court in bedding fields that one the commonwealth refuses to release the evidence this is from them without the ability to test the evidence appellants cannot proceed per our decision in bedding field we conclude the trial court abused its discretion in denying their motion. So this court is differing with the other court. This court previously recognized on direct appeal that the appellants were convicted based on

highly circumstantial evidence. The physical evidence the Commonwealth asserted linked the appellants with the murder consisted of one fingerprint found in Clark's car and one hair deemed similar to Harden's found on her sweatpants. However, this evidence was far from conclusive of the guilt of either appellant with physical evidence as the victim was dating Harden and it was undisputed that she had been in Clark's car in the past. Given the medical examiner's conclusion that the victim was killed following a violent close range struggle, if the unidentified hairs found in the victim's hands were matched to Whitley, the other guy or another individual in the Kentucky or FBI DNA database of convicted offenders, we believe this evidence would, with reasonable certainty, change the verdict or that would or that it would probably change the result of if a new trial should be granted. So here is their official ruling, the appellate court.

This is amazing. Quote, first of all, we are mystified, if not amazed. I love mystified. Mystified means you're an asshole on a level that you're like a, I don't even see it like mystic i see it like you're like mist and i can't even find you that's the way i look at it you're a total asshole you're so much of an asshole there's glitter in the air yeah it's it's fancy it's sparkly the air is you have a sparkly aura that's not good first of all we are mystified, if not amazed, that the Commonwealth has such little interest in the possibility that DNA testing might lead to the prosecution and conviction of a guilty person heretofore uncharged and now at large upon the Commonwealth.

A murderer running free. You have no interest in that possibly. Forget you're embarrassed. The danger that you are that you're exposing people to is insane you just said at best a third party yeah where it seems maybe we should find him exactly what they did to this girl for christ's sake this is but they just said exactly what those idiots on the podcast said is what they're saying those morons they're right actually on this particular case listen to those two dipshits. Wow.

Secondly, we rejected this identical argument in Bedingfield. At trial, the Commonwealth's theory of the case was that the appellants acted alone. The Commonwealth presented no evidence of a third party's involvement. So where the fuck did that come from? That's not your theory. Lastly, we proclaim that evidence admitted into criminal trials in this state belongs to the Commonwealth of Kentucky. It does not belong to the Commonwealth's attorney. So it's not your personal evidence that you're going to hoard it.

No, it's to the state. It says the latter is charged with the duty to preserve and protect the integrity of the evidence. Quote, not to hoard it. Nailed it. Exactly. How did I get it? Not to hoard it nailed him exactly how did i get it said not to hoard it listen to us i'm telling you said those two idiots know what they're talking about only in this particular instance normally morons today they're on point you hoarding asshole hoarding evidence that could be exculpatory you sons of bitches that lazy hoarding asshole is

what he's fat with evidence i mean like he's he's he's really hulking yeah he's thin but his clothes are full of hoarded evidence so he looks real big it's like weird al in the fat video you know embarrassment is fun sometimes just run with it be embarrassed for christ's sake it's funny oh be vulnerable yeah uh the innocence project in this case, not hoard it. That just makes me laugh a lot. The Innocence Project in this case offered to have the evidence tested at a fully accredited lab and to pay for the expensive testing. Reasonable as this proposal may seem, it is not enough. Safeguards must be in place to protect the chain of custody and integrity of the evidence while it's being tested, which is fair.

The trial court is in the best position to establish the appropriate guidelines and monitor the process. In other words, it's possible to say he'll give it to you and this one gives it to that one. Yeah. We hold the appellants are entitled to the testing they seek. they seek accordingly the uh order of the mead circuit count uh court denying appellant's motion is reversed and the case remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion affirming the ruling the state supreme court also rejected the state's argument that the men's unsworn statements admitting to crimes are constituted uh crimes constituted legitimate evidence of their guilt. Just the statements they made to a cop that were unrecorded and not under oath.

So you can't just say that's all evidence. Inmates have, oh, that was the thing. Because the state said, look, they're saying they're innocent. They've been up for parole in their parole hearings. They said they did it. Because you have to in a parole hearing. You will never get parole unless you said, I everything you said i did it was terrible i'm an awful person i've changed a lot and now i know that was wrong right you never get out saying i'm

innocent that's not how it works and the guy that sits in court uh screaming i got this is a kangaroo court yeah i didn't get a fair not helping that guy always gets live without he's fucked when his partner just got 10 years yes totally you have to have some some decorum yeah yeah and with the parole especially you can't no you can't go in there and go i didn't do shit so i'm not sorry for shit so let me out you bastards kept me in here they go well you've learned nothing they put you in there they assume that the court trial court didn't railroad you right and uh hoard evidence right so yeah and then they say the same thing here the court says quote inmates have no choice but to admit their offenses to be eligible for parole consideration uh the court said and they also said we see little merit in insincere and contrived admissions which are included solely by the yearning

to be free yeah so um in other words there's not a lot you can't put a lot in what they're saying to the parole board they're just trying to get out of jail obviously so dna here um the post conviction obviously dna testing of the hair excludes clark or harden as the source weird the sweat pant hair not the gray hair oh shit they knew the gray hair wasn't theirs that was never even better the sweat pant hair was one of the pieces of evidence that blocked them in and that is not it doesn't belong to harden so um now butler who's the judge here this butler guy's great i love the shit he says maybe uh possible i think it's i think his name is i think it's a male name je this butler guy's great i love the shit he says maybe maybe uh possible i think it's i think his name is i think it's a male name jeff butler it's something like that i was

gonna say ben but that's a civil war general i think so i think it is so um he says um uh that the uh butler said the dna evidence also showed that then commonwealth's attorney kenton smith remember that guy who tried the case was wrong when he told the jury that a broken cup seized from Harden's bedroom was a chalice from which both defendants drank the blood of ritually sacrificed animals to enhance their standing with Lucifer, quote unquote. He told the jury that Harden lied when he claimed he'd cut his hand when he dropped the cup. But DNA tests show the blood on the washcloth was 100 hardened and the blood in the cup was not from an animal it's hardens blood

oh my god and that they have the results of the polygraph that both of them were telling the truth when they said that on the polygraph and they knew that to begin with because they passed polygraph oh god so this was they ignored the polygraphs when it wasn't to their liking. They just said they lied. Yeah. So they, at this point, Harden and Clark filed petitions to vacate their convictions and for a new trial. Yeah.

Brian T. Butler. That's his name. There it is. It was a B. There it is. Yep. So also, it gets so much worse. How much worse?

Way worse. How? Well, let's see. They're already in a lot of trouble. Remember Detective Mark Handy? Yeah. We'll talk about trouble. Yeah.

Okay. The court here, Butler really doesn't like this guy. Yeah. Oh, boy. The court calls into question the truthfulness of Louisville Police Detective Mark Handy, who testified that Harden told him during an interrogation that he got tired of looking at animals and began to want to do a human. Okay.

Didn't like that. It was also established that Handy lied in another, in multiple cases, including the case of Edwin Chandler, who was wrongly convicted of murder in another case, and the state paid $8.5 million to over it. We'll talk about him in a minute. But before we get to edwin remember amy remsburg yeah her testimony was damning terrible i mean it was it was a nail in the coffin you can say a hair and that but then when a young lady gets on the stand and goes i've seen this and i said this you go oh boy that's bad well the sheriff's office lead investigator sheriff josepher, conspired with Amy Remsburg to manufacture an inculpatory statement falsely accusing Clark of an interest in Satanism and murder.

Remsburg had reason. This is from Butler, by the way. judge remsburg had reason to falsely implicate clark because he had witnessed her abusing sexually abusing her eight-year-old son and reported the abuse to the police like a good fucking person would amy utah he said you're a scumbag you're sexually abusing your fucking son and he turned her in then they said well if you lie for us yes by the way she's later convicted of sexual child so that was a fact too shit but they had that over her they had that over her during the interview sheriff greer reshaped remsburg's statements by feeding her non-public details about the murder including that the police believed it was a satanic ritual sacrifice and that the fatal

blow had been a stab wound between the base of her skull that severed her brainstem. Armed with this information, Remsburg said. Jumped up on the stand. All of that shit. Said all of it. Oh, yeah. He was telling me that that's where he can't wait to kill someone. And that's where he'd do it.

Right in the brainstem. Yep. That's what he said. Unbelievable. Wow. Remember that cellmate? Yeah. With the letter?

Yeah. Caps. Caps' sentence of incarceration was converted into probation. For his testimony? Under Kentucky's shock probation procedure just one week after he told the cops that he confessed. One week. On information and belief, Sheriff Greer assisted in securing this relief this is based on the sheriff he made sure to get it happening yep and his parole was revoked in may 1994

um and uh he gave caps gave false testimony at clark and harden's trial regarding these two fabricated confessions wow oh time of death let's talk about that too what time oh well between something at 4 a.m well initially when they first found her they said the body was fresh yeah just happened just happened just happened when they found it on april 5th uh they thought the murder originally happened the night of april 4th she's probably sitting here overnight they said but clark and harden had detailed alibis for april 4th yeah and Hardin had detailed alibis for April 4th. And they also had independent alibis for April 3rd. But they're the only two people who could attest to each other's alibi in the early morning hours of April 2nd.

So Detective Handy conveyed this information to Sheriff Greer, who, with Meade County Coroner William Adams, sought the opinion of Chief Medical Examiner to date Warford's death to April 2nd. They changed it to April 2nd. Unbelievable. They originally had it as April 4th. Yeah. They changed it to the 2nd after they had gone through the investigation, found out they had alibis.

They said, let's change that to the 2nd. Perfect name, Handy. You're a real jerk-off. Fucking jerk-off. So, yeah, they said um yeah they said the medical at the trial the medical examiner said that it was impossible to determine the exact date or time of death he conceded that it could have happened april 2nd as the prosecution said could happen april 2nd right and he said i could have sure i mean anything's possible we can make them guilty

of it that day holy shit shit. Oh, a witness. Let's talk about a witness here. Shortly after her body was discovered, April 5th, a witness contacted the sheriff's department and reported seeing Rhonda alive on April 3rd, 1992 in Brandenburg, Kentucky. Couldn't have been the second. She's there breathing. That's not good. On information and belief, by the way, this was relayed to Detective Handy. He knew about all of this shit.

So this is from the court, quote, defendants, meaning the state at this point, because they're being sued over this later, buried this exculpatory information. So we have hoarding and burying. Yeah. Two things the state should never be doing with evidence and doing them at the same time as wayward. Yeah. Yeah. Hoarding and hoarding and burying at once. He's hoarded it and buried the whole damn thing. They did not record it in any police reports and did not tell the prosecution or defense counsel that the witness had seen Warford alive after her purported date of death. Defense counsel only learned to the witness exculpatory evidence through its own independent investigation post conviction, which is insane. They had to recreate a whole investigation to piece together with these people who are hoarding and burying.

Unbelievable. So what about buying cigarettes as an alibi? Okay. That, that's pretty gross too. Um, they said that Clark said he drove to Hardin's house, um, to pardon's parents house

at several blocks away they stopped at a chevron where clark bought cigarettes several witnesses those teenage kids that he was arguing with saw clark and harden at the chevron station and at harden's parents house it was harden's parents there which they can't be relied on because that's the parents obviously so detective handy Detective Handy and Sheriff Greer knew that Clark and Hardin's alibi would be easy to verify because the Chevron has a full surveillance system. Yeah, it's handy too. There's cameras everywhere.

You can just go up. There they are, two in the morning. Never mind. Okay, they knew this the day after they talked to them. Okay, that that would establish that they were in the gas station. Yet Detective Handy and Sheriff Greer deliberately failed to investigate this alibi.

They questioned no witnesses about Clark and Hardin's whereabouts in the morning of April 2nd, and they did not contact the Chevron station to obtain the video. Unbelievable. So the surveillance video was then destroyed. Of course. Rerecorded over a week after, which is Chevron's policy. Every week you go over the tapes. Nothing happened.

Recorded. No robberies. There we go. They could have asked for it the day after, like when they knew it was there, and they could have had the evidence. Wow. So let's get back to Edwin Chandler. Remember him? No.

Oh, boy. He's the guy that Handy had falsely acquitted, falsely convicted, and the guy who won $8.5 million from the state. Rich guy. Very rich guy now, Edwin Chandler. Well, Detective Handy, this is from the court, Detective Handy also orchestrated the wrongful prosecution. God, I sounded so New York when I said also. Good God.

Also orchestrated the wrongful prosecution of Edwin Chandler, a man who was falsely convicted of murdering a gas station attendant. Okay. Detective Handley handy zeroed in on Chandler despite a lack of any physical or testimonial evidence linking him to the crime. Right. Detective Handley and defendant and detective Clark, his co-investigator admitted administered a polygraph to Chandler falsely told him that he lied yeah and coerced him to falsely confess okay to make the confession sound credible detective handy fed chandler non-public details about the crime and falsely represented that they originated with

chandler what the fuck man why do you do this job oh my god chandler's false confession was the critical evidence that's why he has the reputation of being a closer on murder cases because it makes him shit up that's crazy chandler's false confession confession was the critical evidence that led to his conviction um when the investigation ends up turning up physical evidence exonerating chandler detective hanley destroyed or suppressed it what including fingerprint and hair evidence well yeah that makes me look so bad it makes me look like i don't know what i'm doing here or worse i'm just a liar he's a real jerk off wow evidence proving that chandler had not committed the crime detective handy's misconduct led to chandler's wrongful conviction

and left the true killer free to continue committing sickening crimes including the brutal assault of a homeless man stop yeah they found out who did it eventually in 1993 chandler was convicted of the shooting death of a gas station attendant brenda whitfield though the shooting was captured by surveillance video an employee of the sheriff's office taped over the video by taping david letterman what they taped over it to tape the letterman show we taped over a murder i don't have any tapes oh here's that here's the fucking video of that murder oh but the top 10 list this week is so good oh but batman returns is coming out michael keaton's on on on tonight i

gotta watch this keats is gonna sit through the top 10 top 10 reasons the joker's an asshole i'm gonna want to watch this more than once i gotta get a tape fuck this murder the david letterman show over a murder top 10 reasons i gotta get a a taco bell collector's cup oh my god top 10 reasons i gotta get a taco bell collector's cup oh my god top 10 reasons why these fucking cops should be drawn and quartered holy shit what an asshole holy there was no physical i can't get over that one that is wild let it's literally a videotape of a murder letterman's so good there's the killer right there yeah but god damn it he's got a good that top 10 list the monologue oh he's doing stupid people tricks tonight i don't know i gotta watch it he's making jokes about a stained blue dress i gotta watch i gotta watch

well this was like yeah 93 it's when he first switched to cbs yeah that's why it was hot good stuff. While there was no physical evidence to suggest that the then 19-year-old Chandler had been involved in the shooting, a former co-worker of Brenda's came forward to testify that they saw someone who looked like Chandler on the footage. So this is hearsay of, this is see-say. Of he kind of looks like 1992 grainy surveillance video. Yes. That's what it is. So Chandler agreed to turn himself

in on an unrelated check fraud warrant. And he initially told police he had no involvement in the shooting, but then he eventually confessed that he had been the shooter to Handy. He was convicted of armed robbery and manslaughter, sentenced to 30 years in prison.

He later said his confession was coerced after being threatened by Handy, that he would have Chandler's sister arrested for harboring a fugitive and claimed that Handy fed him information about the murder in order to attribute that information coming from Chandler himself. That's a strategy they use a lot, is

threatening other people, too. Five days after the murder, detectives visited Sonia Collinsins his sister's apartment collins was home uh he was living with her at the time collins said that chandler had nothing to do with the crime although they had heard sirens down the road at the time he was sitting there with her collins said that chandler and his girlfriend anita had dinner with her in the apartment about and at about nine o'clock, they went to the home of a neighbor where they watched Single White Female, the movie, which was, again, big shit at that point. Which one?

What's her name? The girl, Fonda. Right. There's not two within it. Right. It's Jennifer Jason Leigh. Right. Isn't the blonde chick Fonda in that movie?

Bridget? Yeah. No, she's not in Single White Female. Is it her?'s her i'll have to google i'm sure i haven't fucking tweet i haven't seen it we haven't seen it in 30 years we'll look it up afterwards we'll know that's it i thought fonda was the was the bad lady in single white female i thought that was or was it rebecca demorne it definitely wasn't rebecca demorne she's the other one she's so good at being a bad bitch oh yeah she's good at being evil and yeah hand that rocks the cradle and all that dead face yeah because she well she looks very she looks like you look at her oh that's very

sweet when she smiles and stuff and then she can be very evil and yeah like oh god she'll mark me yeah she will hard hard so uh they said he returned home around 11 p.m. and never went out to rob anything. Wow. Sat there, ate dinner, went to the neighbor's house, came home, went to bed. So that's that. We heard sirens. That's it. That's the closest I got to it.

That's why he won $8.5 million from the state. Oh, and Keith West. What? Oh, yeah. During the unrelated February 1992 homicide investigation of Keith Kiki West, they call him Kiki, Detective Handy deliberately fabricated inculpatory evidence

and suppressed exculpatory evidence as well. Among other misconduct, Detective Handy destroyed evidence of a witness's initial statement because the witness could not identify West, whom Detective Handy suspected of murder. This is all the judge saying this. This isn't like my opinion.

This is Butler's stank, not mine. This is in law documents. Here's the thing. There's no penalty for that other than you lose your pension and you're fired. You should be fucking... Let's find out. Oh, boy.

Let's find out. All right. Is he arrested for this? Let's find out. For Christ's sake. Detective Handy, who had been recording the statement stopped the tape rewound it and coerced the witness into giving a second statement identifying west recording over it recorded over yeah um detective handy lied at trial about

erasing the tape but the misconduct later surfaced yeah former governor matt bevin pardoned keith west who'd been convicted of murder, obviously. A Louisville judge refused to overturn the manslaughter conviction, even though Mark Handy had later on will be indicted for tampering with evidence. There you go. He was destroying evidence. That's a hold on. It wasn't accidental or lazy. It was criminal.

Just not giving it to the prosecutor. He's literally getting rid of it. Yeah. The ex-governor wrote on December 9th that he was granting West a full and unconditional pardon and restoring all his rights as a citizen there. Now, let's throw one more in for good measure, shall we? Oh, my God. A fourth one? Let's do another.

So this one, also in 1995 here, Mark Butcher here. This is the Mark Butcher murder investigation. Mark Butcher was killed. So the other one, though, legally they couldn't do anything about the procedure, so they just had to pardon him. Yeah, they refused to. His shit would get denied. And so the judge, the fucking governor, finally came in once the lead detective was indicted for tampering with the evidence. The court still wouldn't give him a. They couldn't dismiss it. finally came in once the lead detective was indicted for tampering with the evidence he the

court still wouldn't give him a they couldn't they couldn't dismiss it so the governor had to come in and go pardon we look like assholes jesus christ plus maybe he'll sue us for less right if i pardon him maybe this will be cheaper yeah um it's crazy so the mark butcher murder investigation officers with the louisville police Department here administered a polygraph examination on a developmentally delayed subject. Oh, my God. A guy named John Elvis Rogers and on information and belief misrepresented to Rogers that he failed the examination. But he had passed the examination. They told a person with a 65 IQ they failed the.

Well, you're fucked. You failed the polygraph, mister. And that is. Stand up for yourself. That's science.. You failed the polygraph, mister. And that is, Stand up for yourself. That's science. Yeah, why don't you stand up? And he does. There you go.

We got him now. One more. What the hell? Oh my God. How many? Did he ever do it right? Oh, there's more too. I don't have time.

Oh my God. We could sit here all day with this shit. He was a detective for What a piece of shit. Decades. Why did you do this job, man? Wow. Just because people told him he was good detective for what a piece of shit decades why did you do this job man wow just because people told him he was good at oh god this is shamika shaw um she alleges that

he strangled her during an eviction shouting racial epithets at her and lodged false charges against her that were later dismissed okay um this happened she filed a suit claiming handy fabricated criminal offenses and intentionally lied under oath in an effort to humiliate her and have her wrongfully convicted in a manner consistent with his playbook and so many other cases quote mark handy is the kind of cop who gives honest hard-working peace officers a bad name is what the suit says um he has spent three decades think about 30 fucking years before any science was involved yeah just just locking him up he said he did it no i didn't yep he did i got it right here in my notes said he did it a jerk off he has spent three decades abusing his

authority through documented unlawful arrests fabrication and destruction of evidence and coerced and inaccurate testimony. April 20th, 2016, he had several cops with him. They rushed into her home, Shaw's home at 650 South 43rd Street, during an alleged eviction. When she tried to show him, Handy, a letter from her landlord allowing her to stay in the house till the end of the next month. We worked it out already. This is with handy slapped it out of her hands and said your black ass is leaving today oh handy then called her a stupid bitch while he threw her up against the wall then pinned her to the ground and dragged her out of her house into the front yard. Peace. And all the other cops told what happened. So this wasn't just her word. This was everybody.

She was later acquitted of charges of resisting arrest. And charged her with resisting arrest. And trespassing. Trespassing. In her own fucking house. And resisting arrest. I don't even know what to say about that. So August 2016, Harden and Clark are finally released on bond.

20 years. Finally. 20 several years. 21 years. Oh, my God. Yeah, of jail. Over the objection of Commonwealth attorney David Michael Williams, who said they were a flight risk. Who cares?

They didn't do anything. Leave them alone. They should be able to fly anywhere they want. Yeah, even if they did it at this point, they had no evidence. They did this much time. I'm a fucking let's just if they did it at this point, they had no evidence. They did this much time. I'm a fucking let's just call it a wash at this point. Hey, look. Unreal.

No lawsuits either way. They set Bruce T. Butler again, set bail at $50,000 for both men, property or cash, whatever. Just get out. And said they could be released if they posted 10% of it. Wow. You get five grand in property you can leave see you around you got like a like a eight-year-old toyota camry fine good enough we'll take it just put that up it's fine they're now 46 and 47 years old their whole lives gone in august 2016 um they said when they got released they said they'd never even touched

a cell phone before yeah so that's going to be a hard thing to get used to in 2016 sorry about metallica guys sorry i mean they're still around but not quite the same decent whiskey try it wait till you see some kind of monster the documentary you're gonna be like man therapy in these come on guys i'm all for therapy except for metal bands either kick ass or shut the fuck up and go away. Kick ass, do your drugs and be a mess. Yeah, I don't want to see you. Spin out early. I do not want to see you sitting around talking about your feelings with your bass player. I don't.

And you're supposed to die young. That's the idea. That's what you're doing. Don't age out till you're Mick Mars suing Motley Crue. I don't want to see this. That goes for podcasters, too. Podcast. We have to go to a group.

What are you doing? What are you hanging out together? Don't hang out together. You're not married. Why don't you like that person? Yeah. Why did you get into a business with somebody you hate? Yes, that's what I mean.

We did this not because it was some strategic thing of, oh, our voices sound different. We said, we like hanging out together. Let's make a fucking show. So we've never had to go to group therapy we just laugh we just giggle like assholes it's great holy shit so wow um in separate interviews clark on his lawyer's phone yeah and uh and his sister said they were overwhelmed with emotions and the sights and sounds of things and the world has changed a lot since 96 he's a little freaked out oh that's such a big change yeah he's like i heard of the internet once 2017 some once i got a in the mail i got a disc for 10 free hours at

aol is that what's on my phone now hold on we got a lot to talk about you better soak up all that freedom too because in about two years you're about to be locked in your own house god damn it no shit so uh he said quote as the clark said you always dream of this day especially when you didn't do nothing and now the day is here i'm joyful that the truth is finally coming out but i'm upset it took so long yeah yeah hope he didn't get tattoos on his fucking face oh i know hope he wasn't like fuck it yeah let's just fucking go whatever prison crazy jesus putting ss bolts on himself just try not to get murdered in jail so uh his sister that's gonna be tougher i can't imagine white guys in jail that's what they do that's what you have to do yeah you have to unless you're italian yeah but we have our own thing if you're me you're fucked you're fucked yeah

there's us there's like four of us but we have our own thing. If you're me, you're fucked. You're fucked, yeah. There's us, there's like four of us, but we do our own thing and you leave us the fuck alone. You get to wander around everywhere. Yeah, yeah. You're lucky fucks. It's true, too. And I have to fucking go hang out with these dicks. Jesus Christ. I have to pretend to be a Nazi.

Great. This sucks. Is there... I don't want to be a part of those groups. No. I don't want to have to get stupid clover tattoos. No, none of that i don't need one based on personality that would be better can we can we all hole up basically is there a giggly

group i can join a bunch of guys hanging out cracking up who we doing we just laugh and have a great time oh it's a fun group i don't think that exists unfortunately they're all mad oh man holy shit so they talked to his sister yeah and his sister says, it's been hell. It really has been. He went in at age 22, and now he's in his 40s. It's taken his whole young life away from him. So we were hoping he'd get out today and start living. His lawyer here, Clark's lawyer, who is the supervising attorney of the Kentucky Innocence Project, says she was thrilled they were released

and said this is a big step on our long journey to justice. The Smith hoped the Commonwealth would dismiss the charges altogether and said the men's release on Bond is three-quarters of a victory because she said there's virtually no evidence left against them since she is confident that the Court of Appeals will affirm Butler's order. Harden's sister, Vicki Houser, said the release was bittersweet because their mother died last year. Oh, shit.

Yeah, that's the mother died in 2015. Sad sidetrack, October 2016, two months later, Gar Keith Harden Sr. dies as well. Oh, no. So his dad's dead as well, a month after he gets out. But you're free yay have a great time yeah so that's wonderful his dad was an army veteran and worked at pepsi and all that kind of shit so yeah uh now back to his back to the sister here she said she offered to buy him

pizza but he said he wasn't hungry he's got too many butterflies when he got out he just didn't know what was going on i'll just throw it up i don't know what was going on. I'll just throw it up. I don't know what's going on. My body can't handle that right now. No, I haven't eaten pizza. He turned hard and said he wasn't angry, which I don't know how you wouldn't be. I'd be like, I will kill every one of you. I wasn't a murderer before, but I am now. You just made one. Hail Satan, bitches.

Fuck you. I'd be such a dick. He said he wasn't angry, but thanked Butler for his ruling. He said, I'm glad this finally is coming to an end. And he said he'd like to spend some time with his family. One of his three sisters said he's going to live with her. And Clark has family in Indiana and Florida, but he plans to stay at a hotel Monday night, but doesn't know where he'll go next because their bonds require that they stay in the state of Kentucky.

He doesn't know anybody in the state of Kentucky. His whole family is gone. So he's like, I don't in the state of Kentucky. He has to have an address there. His whole family's gone. Right. So he's like, I don't know where I'm staying. I don't have a home here. Oh, shit. He's going to stay in a hotel and then figure it out. He's like, that's brutal.

A boarding house or something. That sucks, man. He said he's looking forward to time with his daughters. He has kids? He had kids and grandchildren. His kids had kids. They're old. Yeah, but he says he spent all the years fighting lies and the prosecutors spent so many years fighting against DNA tests that led to the convictions being set aside.

Now, Butler, the guy who wrote the order, who we like here, he said that there is, you know, newly available DNA testing shows that the police prosecutors erred and all that kind of shit. The prosecutor, though, Williams, he was the one who opposed the DNA test mystically, mystifyingly. And he says he wants to retry both men and has filed a notice. He will appeal this order as well. You're going to lose so bad, man. So defending the convictions, this prosecutor said that harden admitted before the kentucky parole board that he stabbed warford we've already talked about that and that he was involved in satanism he also implicated clark but butler said that offenders are forced to take responsibility for crimes they did not commit in order to win parole he argued this

is the prosecutor argued in court that the two men were a flight risk and in an interview said that he plans to retry them and he's going to appeal he said quote they had enough evidence for a jury to find them guilty last time so based on that i'd say there's enough evidence again that a jury could find them guilty give it a run man wow see how that works out for you um one of the sisters of harden here jenny she said they have no evidence. We don't know why they're pursuing the case. I just don't understand it. Mystifying. It's mystifying, and it really is. Heather Lawson, who is Clark's daughter here, who was adopted as a young child.

He adopted a kid when he was 21? That's a real murderer, James. What a piece of shit. So he lived in a trailer with a snake and all that. He reported a girl for sexually abusing a young lady. That's a real murderer, James. What a piece of shit. So he lived in a trailer with a snake and all that. He reported a girl for sexually abusing a young lady. That's fine. He also did put a gun in a woman's mouth and cocked a hammer. That's not terrific.

That's terrible. And so he's a man of dichotomies. I'll tell you this. He's unpredictable. He's unpredictable. So yeah, this adopted daughter said that she only got to know her father in prison in the last year. And after reviewing the case herself and deciding he was innocent, said she hopes he will come home and live with her in southern Indiana if he gets bail. She said he gets off bail.

I'm hoping I can take him out for a good steak dinner, hug him and show him my life. They can retry him all they want. There's nothing to retry. So, wow. Jesus. So virtually all evidence linking them to the murder has been discredited. The judge said the pair already had served more than 21 years behind bars. But for assistant attorney General Perry Ryan, you know, that seems like you should not try it.

But for this guy, he said, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not only am I going to try them for the murder, but I'm also going to tack on. See, last time the Satanist thing wasn't good enough for the death penalty. I'm tacking on perjury for what he said to the parole board and kidnapping. Now it's a death penalty case. We're going for the death penalty. They kidnapped her, drug her out there, killed her, and then lied about it. Yeah, balls, Perry.

So how can they perjure themselves and have killed her at the same time? You can't charge both of those things. He's lying that he killed her, so he killed her. Exactly. That's what he's saying, basically. The judge said it almost seemed as if Ryan was trying to punish them for proving their innocence. Right. Yep.

The ruling now. Oh, Butler had a 14 page ruling where he was not thrilled at all. He he said that's what Ryan did in his 14 page ruling, dismissing perjury and kidnapping charges. Butler said the attorney general's office acted out of vindictiveness, personally rebuking Ryan by name. As a matter of fact, the court found that he sought to punish the defendants for exercising their constitutional rights in violation of state and federal constitutions. He said, quote, This court is confronted with the stark reality that Mr. Harden and Mr. Clark were convicted based on suppositions that we now know to be fundamentally false.

Vindictive conduct by persons with the awesome powers of prosecutors is unacceptable. Yeah. Especially for two powerless kids looking for fucking snakes in a trailer. They don't have any recourse on anything. It's like they have a team of high-powered attorneys around them that can help them sort this out. If they had high-powered attorneys, they'd at least hire the crocodile hunter to get this snake back in his cage. Yeah, they can't even get the snake back in the cage they gotta do it themselves drunk so uh in his order dismissing the indictments here butler noted the charges were sought only after the innocence project lawyers won them a

new trial now you want those you didn't say that before the judge said that ryan tacked on the charges in an effort to increase the penalty to which the defendants were exposed, thereby punishing defendants for successfully exercising legal rights. He's embarrassed, James. Exactly. They made fools out of them. Butler also said Ryan waited three years after Harden testified before the parole board to charge him with perjury. Where was that? And only did so after he and clark were granted a new trial yeah he said i don't i hope i

have done what's right butler said um but i do know that i've done what the law requires there you go that's all you're supposed to do right what the law requires it's your only taking this so fucking personal that's it yes run it by the book and nobody gets hurt so a spokesman for the attorney general's office said the dismissed indictments were sought by the Meade County Commonwealth's attorney and that the AG's office, this is the state attorney general's office, didn't take over as lead prosecutor until just now. And this guy said that since then, the office has taken what he's calling a, quote, fresh look at the evidence and is committed to doing the right thing. We're going to take a pause. We'll do this the right way. They said we look like assholes every day this is crazy he said the office doesn't believe ryan

a 29 year prosecutor engaged in any wrongful conduct but he has been a part of the case since the office took over the trial level process as trial level prosecutor butler said in his ruling that ryan had been involved in the case for 20 years. The Commonwealth's attorney, David M. Williams, the one we talked about, said he still wants to see Clark and Hardin retried for murder. Still, even after all this, he still says, even after the state attorney general says, listen, it's bullshit, he goes, I'd still like to try him. I really would. Give it a run. He said, but quote, it's not my call now. And he said he gave up the case, quote, because he was swamped with other words.

Not because the state AG said, you stupid fucking morons. You hillbilly backwoods provincial dipshits. You cocksucking motherfuckers. You are the one who give us bad fucking reputations. You fucking banjo playing moron. You fucking toothless dipshit. Fuck you. You look like you're on an old mountainutations, you fucking banjo-playing moron. You fucking toothless dipshit. Fuck, you look like you're on an old Mountain Dew can, you asshole. So the 2017, they file a wrongful conviction lawsuit in federal court here

against Meade County Sheriff Joseph Greer, Deputies Ernie Embry and Cliff Wise, and Meade County Coronerer adams as well as handy and the rest of them here 2008 there are 18 their petitions are finally granted the prosecution's motions to dismiss the charges after they elected to not retry them was granted february 26 2018 this took okay now what happened to Mark Handy? What happened? In 2018, the Louisville Metro Council

adopted a resolution requesting the Attorney General to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Detective Handy for any criminal activity in the handling of the Chandler case. In April 2018, a special prosecutor was appointed

and authorized to pursue allegations in other cases where similar claims of wrongdoing have been made september 2018 a jefferson county grand jury indicted handy on one count of perjury for giving false testimony against chandler on another count of tampering with evidence in the case against keith west he attempted to plead guilty to the perjury charge in June 2020, but in October 2020, Jefferson County Circuit Court Judge Olu Stevens rejected the plea and scheduled a trial. No, no, no. You're not getting off easy.

This is all coming out, is what he said. In 2021, Handy agreed to plead guilty to charges of perjury and evidence tampering and return for a sentence of one year in prison a year a year he has caused untold decades of people to rot in fucking prison a year handy admitted that he he admitted that he taped over the recording of a witness statement in the prosecution of west he also admitted he committed perjury while testifying in the trial of chandler when he falsely said chandler told him something only the murderer would have known not accept a plea he is sent into prison in may 2021 less than three weeks after he enters prison he is released to serve the remainder of his

sentence at home it was too dangerous they give him a fucking they probably didn't have i don't know if they didn't have the wherewithal to protect him but you know what that's not our problem you didn't you don't protect anybody else in there where the fuck should you protect this asshole he must have got the shit kicked out of him one day i fucking hope so he deserves it what an asshole i would if he convicted me of murder and i see him walking the block oh we're gonna fucking rip his face off. So poor Rhonda Sue Warford, who we don't ever know definitively who killed her, but we are pretty sure it's James Whitley because multiple people said that he confessed to it, and this is before anybody knew anything. He had the details of shit.

So allegedly it's possible. So it seems like it's probably that guy but we don't know allegedly that's all it is i mean we can't call him a murder but if he's i looked for any evidence that they tried him charged him i think they just said let's put this all let's not talk about that one is there a carpet near here if we talk about that at all they're gonna talk about that other stuff it's that's just that never happened yeah that's fresh start wow so ronda sue warford is buried at the mead uh where she oh she's buried at the evergreen cemetery in louisville because that's where she's from so um she's there and uh never got any closure but that's fucked up

handy i can't fucking believe three weeks three all of that pain this asshole caused. Three weeks. Oh, my God. Three weeks in prison? In jail? People spend longer than that at the beach. That is fucking wild. But that, everybody, is Brandenburg, Kentucky, and one hell of a wacky. That's crazy, that story.

What a story. It's absolutely nuts. So I don't know if you know who killed Rhonda Sue Warford. Let somebody know. Don't tell Handy. I was going was gonna say tell that butler guy he seems to be the only person in the state who gives half a shit about justice in that whole state so every other judge all anything that sounded reasonable had his name on it everything else was just crazy like mystifyingly fucking crazy to use a term from him so if you that, you should tell the world about it.

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Definitely want to do that for all the updates and all that kind of shit. Another thing you need. Patreon. Hey, Patreon dotcom slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of the bonus materials we put out as much as anyone in the game. I will say that. You get four-year $5 or more a month.

You get the whole back catalog of bonus stuff, which is like almost 200 episodes. You get new episodes every other week. Two new episodes, as a matter of fact. Each month. this week is no different one small town murder one crime and sports you get it all uh for crime and sports which you'll definitely be interested in we're going to talk personal ads again well you know if you're if you've been a patron you understand how great those are we do them twice a year because

they're so amazing so fun newspaper ads from the 80s and early 90s of people trying to find love in desperate ways and it's hilarious and then for small sales it's so funny and then for small town murder back to the serial killer childhood series with btk's childhood baby it's in his own words too and it's just so his words make everything creepy he's such a creep i I swear. Sparky. Sparky big time. Going to Disneyland. All of it. He's so gross. He brings up Sparky early.

Oh, no. Early. It's disgusting. So check all that out. And the T stood for top. And the K stood for kitty. God damn it. So get in there.

Yeah. Oh, you definitely want to hear it, though, because it's weird. And we'll make fun of him unmercifully. So Patreon.com slash crime and sports and of course you'll get a shout out at the end of the show which is right now but before that also we have to tell you keep an eye out for your stupid opinions new podcast coming where we talk about shit from all over reviews from the internet of everything i mean think about everything on that's possible. It's all reviewed, and we're going to talk about it all, and it's so fun.

We cannot wait. Your stupid opinions come. And that said, I need to hear. I need to cleanse myself. Like in the buttermilk falls, I'm going to cleanse myself rather than in the falls in the names of the most wonderful fucking people on Earth. Jimmy, hit me with them right now.

This week's executive producers are Christine G g katie sick nagando sicky sitchy ginano yeah ginano if you're italian you will fuck your name up rose sonstrom uh sonstrom maybe sonstrom brandy huntley lisa putnam put man put man putman uh and sue bombs hot. And Sue Bob's hot titties. Hey, I'm the hottest of the white family. Sue Bob with the titties. I'm the sexiest of the white family. Other producers this week are Rabbi Shmuelovich's pet hamster Beavis. Herman Fox, he's the best bowler in the synagogue league of 77.

Corporal Carl Kirshner and his $100 Italian Sammy. He found a deli in the Midwest that has $100 sandwiches, evidently. I don't know if that's true. It better be six feet long. Peyton Meadows, Holden McGurkin. Are you proud of yourself? Do you feel better? Is that it?

Is that what you needed? Jacob Cook is engaged because you told him that the world does not owe him pussy. So he got up off of his ass and found a gal to marry him. Congratulations, Jake. See, it works in practice. It worked out. Kate Scott, Janice Hill, Thomas Smith. Happy birthday, Thomas.

Happy birthday. I've missed you. Akia Hardiman, Hardy Man. Ian DeMar, DeMare. Allison Watkins, Joseph Tucker, Amelia, Amelia, Gagrican, Gagrican. Yeah. Close. Gagrican?

I don't know. Sean Maryhugh, Steph, Sean Maryhugh. Is that real? Steph with no last name. M with no last name. Just the letter. Brianna Garrett, Jennifer Johnson, Becky Legger, I think. Legger.

Gianna, Jean, Jeanne Heft, Angela Monroe, Def with no last name, Lily Wallacher, Laura Wedley, Nina Skaggs, Casey Post, Michelle Petri, Tia, Tia, Tia, Tay LeBlanc, Jason Frank, Francesca Herrera, Anna Contreras, Ashley Stapleton, McCray Smith, Melinda Snowdy, McKay Jr., M, Jennifer with no last name, Casey Agadar, Agataher, Stephanie Kojis, Gene, Jenny, Jenny Serino, Disgruntled Foreskin, that's disgusting, James Morris, Kelsey Freeland, H. Moxley, Tuli Lauder, Paige Zenkovich, Bruce Cox, Cole Lee, Chris Fletcher, Kelly Bergmans, Susan Fry, Ian Shotters, Tamara Cameron, Tamara, Tamara, Cameron, Robert, Robert Feiner, Marlene Simon, Jack with no last name, Betty Sadler, Annie Kingsley, Catherine Hunter, Emily Molloy, Marcus Dijk, Sarah Jacobs, Bridget Patterson, Raddick Barnert, boy, oh, boy, Emily with no last name, Olivia Garrison,

Chris Young, Eric Thompson, Jason with no last name joel or maybe joelle amy cunningham claudia with no last name david evers joel that's the name of the guy that plays for the fucking sixers joel is his first name yeah there's a few joels out there it's not joel it's joel it's joel david ever sandra tugas yolanda Wood, Carla with no last name, Marcus Pliess, I don't know, Amanda Wolf, Ayala, Ayla, Spears, Ayla, oh boy, Mrs. Double D, congratulations. Crystal and Josh Parrott, Nancy Leishman, Carter Herney, Jen Brown, Donovan Grace, Jeffrey Abel, KillzoneX97, Lisa Putman. I said that. Damn it. Yeah. Craig Fouts. Daniel Zappa. So nice. You said it twice.

Zappa Tagarduno. Yeah. Zappa. Zappa Tagarduno. Zappa Tagarduno. David Kerstetter. Jacob Juhasz. Juhasz. Brad McGaughy. McGaughy. McGaughy? McGaasz, Brad McGaughy, Jacob Doug, Dave Felitti, Barbara Oxford, Robert Nielsen, Nanu Perez, Jesse with no last name, Natalie O, Kim Waddington, Tony Anderson, James Marquardt, Elizabeth Aung, Linda Bartol, Bergen Backen,

Evelyn Phillips, Marshall Bowen, Shelley Kennedy, Raymond Geisler, Sarah Sheridan, Ronnie Hicks, Jessica Brenner, Laura Johnson, John Mimranek, Gary Burke, Jane Doe, Becky Haney, Amy Burke, Eric Boolie, Samuka, Amy Squirrut, Vinnie Snelson, Pamela with no last name, Mary Ann with no last name, Todd Stokes, Gabby with no last name, Diana Spencer-Lazley, Laura Abel. S with no last. Just the letter S. This show brought to you by the letter S. Kayla Miller. Michael Gonzalez. Barry McCockiner.

Are you proud of yourself? It's not Barry. That's not your first name. It's been very few this week. You're a real dick. You think McCockiner's the last name, though? It might be. It's probably James.

Jesse with no last name. John McCloskey. Miss Kitka. Angie Strain. Jerry Rayfield. Ryan Clay. Brandon Hume. Lamont Cranston IV. Autumn Tierney. Jeff Vance. Kim Hachoski. Alex Garcia. Lauren with no last name. William Plummer. Ricardo Martimus. Sarah Plansky, Melissa Thomas, Brittany Weber, Tim Dirksen, Laura Simmons, Matt Brown, Jessica Welch, Stacy Baker, James Kim, Jerry Vo, Stephen Brooks, Mint Berry Crunch, Mandy Dempsey, Anne Marie Viola. I'm going to slow down for these. I'm going to slow down for these. Duke Fang, Divine, Chelsea Waters, Alex Madrid, Amber Branson, Liz Plimeley, and all of our patrons. You're fucking amazing. Thank you. Thank you, everybody, so much for all that you do for us.

Honestly, we're blown away every time. And just thank you for what you do. Thank you so much. Those shout-outs are heartfelt. We say them because, I mean, Jimmy can't pronounce them, but he means them from the bottom of his heart. Thank you so much. Those shout-outs are heartfelt. We say them because, I mean, Jimmy can't pronounce them, but he means them from the bottom of his heart. That's the thing.

We mean them. Whether they come out right or not is really pretty irrelevant. Something my fault. I'm dumb. We try. So thank you for doing that. If you want to get a hold of us personally on social media,

real easy to do that. You can head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. There's links that lead you everywhere you could want to go. You could get them. That's right. That said, thank you so much for joining us, everybody. And until next week, it's been our pleasure.

Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.