Small Town Murder - #381 - Hunting The Home Hermit - Caledon, Ontario, Canada

Episode Date: April 27, 2023

This week, in Caledon, Ontario, Canada, an odd man, who is described as a loner, with a foul odor, closes his antique shop, to spend his time living in an attic, when he's not living in the woods. He also finds time to go on a crime spree that earns him several nicknames. A nice couple ends up dead, and the police race against time to try to find him, after he's kidnaped several women, and may be holding them, alive!! It's a nail biter, and just a really strange tale, about a really strange man!!Along the way, we find out that Canadians are patriotic about anything Canadian, that when a man's odor can give away his location at 50 yards, it might be time to bathe, and that you can't root any harder than when police are actually racing to save several lives!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Caledon, Ontario, Canada, a series of strange events in rural cabins are connected to a rash of awful abductions and murders that leave most of Canada terrified. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrogallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you so much for joining us today on another crazy, and I mean insane, Canadian-style this week edition of Small Town Murder. And as we'll find out, no different. We've done a few Canadian cases, and it's all the same. That's it. Not everybody's a sweetheart out there? Nope, it's all one thing. Whether it's United States Small Town Murder, we've done UK Small Town Murder, Australian Small, same thing. it's united states small town murder we've done uk small town murder australian

small same thing there's always an ass it all works out and wow do we have one today for you but before we get to that quickly definitely head over to shut up and give me murder.com if you're listening to this when it comes out regularly there are still a couple days left to or i think about 48 hours left to get the virtual live show which is out it was out 4 20 and you could get it the whole the whole week there if you want so get in there get those wow you should have seen jimmy it was it was nuts hasn't happened yet when we're recording it but man it was crazy god you shouldn't have done that you know you know what you can still get in there so

do that also get your tickets may the 5th we're in detroit fill that bad boy up that's right coming to town and then pittsburgh the next night on may the 6th and then we're pretty much sold out up until uh august yeah where we have august 12th in chicago our biggest venue ever going to be our biggest show ever we can't wait chicago let's fill this bad boy up let's set a record let's do it thank you shut up and give me murder.com is where you get all of that patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of the bonus material anybody five dollars a month or above you're going to get ever not only a whole huge back catalog of things to binge but you're also going to get new bonus episodes every other week two new episodes one crime and sports one small town murder this week is no different this week for crime and sports what you'll get is you know we always talk about the players

this week we're going to talk about owner crimes because there's been plenty of owners who have gotten in a lot of trouble so we'll talk a lot about that and then for small town murder it's time again for love after love let's talk about what's been going on the last six months or so of these insane people's lives fuck man oh boy has it gotten juicy and we cannot wait to tell you all about it even if you haven't watched the show don't worry about it you don't need to we'll fill you in check that out and also coming up in a couple weeks is going to be the prisoner dating game back again of course so get in. That is patreon.com slash crime and sports, and we do appreciate all of

that. So it is time also now for the disclaimer. Gotta have the disclaimer. Oh, by the way, keep an eye out for Your Stupid Opinions, the new show. It is coming, we swear. There's a lot to set up. It's not our fault. It's so busy. Yeah, we have other stuff going on that you don't know about also that could be very cool.

Yeah, we don't have a giant staff or anything. So we have a few people here, and that's that. So definitely get in there, wait for that show. But the disclaimer, this is a comedy show. We are comedians. There's going to be terrible murder. Oh, yeah. And there's going to be jokes.

For sure. But this is the thing. They don't cross over. There's nothing funny about the actual murder. Someone's dismembering somebody there's not a lot of jokes to be made there you just go this is terrible and then when they decide how they're going to try to get away with that that's the funny part see how it works there so uh if that sounds good to you if you think that true crime and comedy should never go

together then maybe we're not for you maybe not But if you think you could get something out of that, and trust us, there's a lot to get. What we don't do, we go out of our way not to do, is we never make fun of the victims or the victim's family. Why, James? Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's how that works. I mean, we make fun of the murderers and we make fun of

lots of, all sorts of crazy stuff here. But yeah, if you think that true crime and comedy should never go together, maybe we're not for you. We might not be your match. Maybe we are, though. Maybe you want to give it a shot. Either way, though, that doesn't matter. For the rest of you, though, who want to hear a crazy story, I think it's time, everybody.

You know what? Let's take a deep breath, all of us. A deep breath. Where are you? In yoga right now? You're doing yoga? Take a deep breath with everybody else. Try not to fart. Lots of people are farting. Take a huge

deep breath and when everybody else is exhaling, I want you to open your eyes like a lunatic. Raise your arms to the sky and shout SHUT UP AND GIVE ME MURDER! Let's do this, Jimmy.

Let's go on a trip, shall we? In your tight pants. In your tight pants. That's right. That's why it's so easy to park. Let's go on a trip here. We're leaving the country. Okay.

Packing up, passports ready, crossing the border. We did this. Yeah, well, last time in Canada was the bus trip, as we remember, with the man who... The knife. Oof, that was wild. This guy's worse., with the man who. The knife. That was wild. This guy's worse. So there you go. This is in Caledon, Ontario.

This is it's in southern Ontario. So, you know, toward the U.S. more toward which most of the Canadian population. It's all right there. Because that's where it's less cold. It's all just weather based. That makes sense. I mean, I'm sure they'd go up north if there was if it wasn't frozen it looks like on a map oh that they're just like looking through the fences of somewhere much better no no they're no no they're just huddled for warmth at the border going jesus christ they're huddled

at the fence rubbing their hands together yeah it's just warm that's it it's just warm they're as low down as they can go it's a little bit over an hour to Toronto. It's kind of outside of like the rural area outside of Toronto. It is 21 hours and 40 minutes to Portage La Prairie, which was our last Canadian episode, a dangerously unpredictable cannibal, as we might remember. hour ride. A little far. And you're going to hit like four moose and ten patches of ice and it's a dangerous drive. You don't want to take that drive. This is in the Peel region. P-E-E or P-E-E-L.

Oh. No. P-E like a peel of a fruit region. That's the county. It's not even a county, just a region. Postal code or no, area code. This is for area code. Are there numbers and letters? and letters no no that's the postal codes yeah area code though 905 and 519 also history of this town a little bit in 1869 there was a town called bell fountain oh bel fountain which was a village with a population

of a hundred in the township of caledon county peel yeah and it was established on the river and there were stage coaches around to and from there you could get your average lot for a land lot if you wanted to move here twenty dollars is that right twenty dollars you can establish yourself that's a deal that's a steal man uh now in 1973 so 100 years later caledon acquired more territory when another town dissolved. Oh. So they were like, oh, we've been waiting for this. We can take the good parts.

We can annex some other shit. No, not that. You keep the trailer park. No, we don't want that. We want downtown. Everything used in a trailer park we'll take. So with most sections north of Mayfield Road being transferred to this township. Okay.

So it just got, like, dissolved, this other town, into other things. It inherited the name Caledon Township of then Peel County, Ontario, in 1974, which was named by the settlers, only a few settlers here, named Edward Ellis, who came from a place in Northern Ireland called Caledon. So, again. And they think maybe there was a public vote, and people said, sure, why not? Whatever. What the hell?

We have a nice Irish around here. They love the Irish up there. Yeah, that's great. Go ahead. Fine. Name it whatever you want. So reviews, it's hard to find. There's no Canadian niche. No?

So it's hard to find reviews of these canadian towns of the actual towns so you have to do like what's the basic if you're going to that town what would you do type of thing just search the word on facebook well you found also yeah i did but it was a it was hard to get they were talking about like working for the town a lot it was weird so i found their hotel here there's a few hotels there's a bunch because there's a decent amount of people here but rather than we have the motel six yeah and the super eight motel they have something that sounds combined to be worse the super five in the super five it's not quite six it's definitely not eight eight. It's not a super eight. It's a super five.

Look, calm down. Listen. Listen, it's not. Don't get ahead of yourselves. That's certainly. Super five. That's exactly what it is, right? It's hilarious.

So I found some reviews of the super five. And here's a four out of five stars. They like this place. Okay, here we go. This was my first stay at super five in not surprising i arrived without a reservation i can't imagine all it's gonna be all booked up at the super five for most days i'm sure somebody calls and says i'd like to make a reservation they go why i mean you just show up we have stuff you can see why are you

doing this you sleep in my bed if you want. It's still not open. So I arrived without any reservation. That was not an issue. Okay, see? I was met by a professional and friendly staff member. I was checked in quickly. The room was tidy, clean, and smelled nice. Oh?

Yeah. This is a zero-smoking inn, and the rule is enforced, which I greatly appreciate. The room comes with a mini fridge and microwave very convenient wow this is a very easily pleased canadian wow the environment was quiet during my stay no loud noises etc my overall experience was positive okay so i mean that's i'm worried about how they're enforcing the no smoking policy but i'm just not allowed to smoke i guess sounds militant though very well in the rooms in the rooms yeah yeah that's easy i just picture people kicking the door in with a cattle prod

knock you off your bed flies out of your hand they drag you out in your boxer shorts by your ankle as you're coming to go to the gulag that's that's what i picture yeah um this next one one out of five stars not quite as enthusiastic here uh this hotel is the worst place in my life higher bar to clear the worst place in my life wow uh the doors are not closing safe and as as the result, I was robbed last night. Oh, my God. That's not great at all. This sounds terrible. Your room, were you in it?

Wow. Let's find out. The staff doesn't responsible for any help or support. The front manager is always late for work. Oh, now we're getting into scheduling. And without him, no one knows anything about the procedure. Okay. There was a robbery, man.

There's a robbery. Get to work. The procedure to call the cops? That doesn't seem like a very difficult procedure. No one has checked the cameras or at least helped with calling a police. A police. A police. One.

Just give me one fucking police can I get here. I'm not asking for the whole force. I'm not asking for every goddamn Dudley do right on the planet to come, you know, trotting over here on their steed. I just need one guy. There's something about non-fluent English when somebody's angry. It's awesome.

It's great. Yeah. It just reminds me of my grandmother and makes me laugh. I love it. That's why I think it's so funny because I just picture that all the time. Yeah, it just reminds me of my grandmother and makes me laugh. I love it. That's why I think it's so funny because I just picture that all the time. Hey, police. Yeah, at least help with calling up police. Instead, the front office staff just know how to watch their phones all the time

and be extremely rude and not helpful. Now, response from the owner to this review. Oh, they're the best. The owner responds, you know, it's like, oh, you know. This is why your stupid opinions is going to be wonderful. Okay. I apologize for the unpleasant experience you had at our hotel. We take security very seriously and are sorry to hear that you were robbed.

Happy to hear you weren't dismembered in one of our rooms, though, because that would have been a mess. Let me tell you something. It was so easy to re-rent your room the next night. Yeah, just, again, right in there. We are in the process of reviewing our security procedures to ensure that such an incident does not happen again. We have spoken to our front office staff and reminded them of their responsibility to provide excellent customer service and to be responsive to customer needs we value our customers and have taken steps to ensure our customers have a safe and secure stay thank you for bringing this to our attention we had no idea and that we hope that you'll give us another chance and make your stay with us a pleasant one i don't think that person's

coming back i'm gonna throw a little in here we didn't know our doors don't shut that person's coming back. I'm going to throw that all in here. We didn't know our doors don't shut. Wow. Yeah, that's at least they took it. They didn't just say you're a liar or, you know, something like that. OK, here's one out of five. I left a Nike sweater there and under and an Under Armour tee. I called them and wanted it back because it was a birthday gift from my daughter and they swore it wasn't there. I know exactly where I left it because it was a special sweater exclamation point wasn't that special obviously a special sweater um they responded we're sorry to hear that you have trouble retrieving your belongings from our hotel

we would love to help you relocate or help you locate your lost items and get them back to you if found thank you maybe put an air tag in that sweater next time it's if it's that special really you need to slap some technology on that bad boy here's one out of five again we booked a trip through hot wire at super five in okay well you just mixed two hot wire and super five in if you combine those together of course things are gonna melt you're gonna have a bad life that's not. And we were charged for the room. Okay, well, yeah. After a long six-hour drive, we were told that they canceled our reservation. Oh, no.

No prior notice. This is all in capital letters, by the way, the next couple sentences. No prior notice. Plus, the front desk staff was extremely rude and arrogant. I'll take rude, but how dare you be arrogant? You can't have it with arrogant? No, no, no. When asked if he can offer us another room, he kept insisting they were fully booked and kept offering rooms to other people.

We had to cut our trip short. Your whole trip was based around this? There's other hotels in the city. The whole trip was based around staying at the Super 5 in the city the whole trip was based around the same staying at the super five everything else was booked evidently wow i won't recommend this place they provide horrible customer service and won't even help you i would recommend to avoid them at any cost if you have plans to enjoy your stay in canada they scheduled a trip six hours based around the super 5. Get in, kids. We're going to the Super 5. Come on, kids. Super 5. So now people in this town, there's less people here now. And this is it's, by the way, more difficult to find or more people now than there was when this

happened. Difficult to find Canadian statistics for these towns. They're not quite as easily kind of aggregatable as the American towns for some reason. But when this happened in 1991, there was 34,965 people there. Now there's about 70,000. So it's grown because it's an hour outside Toronto. Toronto is a very large city. The median age here is about a little under 41, which is a few years older than the average here. It seems like, I like this, the largest ethnic group here is Italians in Caledon.

What? 23.2% Italians. I bet you can get a nice crispy saucy pie around here, I bet, though. Some good bread, maybe. Is there anywhere on the planet other than Italy that that's a thing? No. It's like Venezuela, which has the highest percentage of Italian people outside of Italy, and Caledon are the two, and the Bronx.

Outside of that, it's wild that we don't exist, really. That's wild. Yeah, that's interesting so even less than canadians that's the regular like canadian ancestry yeah so um yeah let's see um here we go 66 were white yeah 32.8 were what was called on this site visible minorities that's not my term i'm just saying this website feels racist well that's one way to put it i guess this right you can tell by looking at him can't you well what the hell are you talking about then obviously jesus it's visible have a look at them. Jesus. So, yes, that's fucking funny. Religion here.

Caledon, 58.5% religious, which is higher than the U.S. average, which is 50-50. And Catholic is the highest, 38.2. Catholics are the Baptists of the far north. Far north. Well, it's mostly Italians. Quarter Italians are going to get a lot of Catholics running around. You get those horns running around. Oh, boy.

There's going to be some stations of the cross for sure. That's happening. 0.4% Jewish. Almost got a Hava Nagila, everybody, but not quite. Hopefully, maybe next time. We'll be hitting the Northeast soon, hopefully. Can't wait. We'll get that there.

Median value of a dwelling here, median home value, is $474,087, which is higher than the national average, which the national average up there is $280,000, so well higher. The median household income here is $83,454. So they're doing well. It's a suburb of Toronto, so it seems like if you don't want to live in the city and you have a good job you can live in a have a bigger house out here years old you go out here yeah exactly um now it was a more rural whack when our thing happened it was less of a bedroom community i think here so uh the nation the canadian national average is 54 000 so it's just about same as here so um left you we, we've convinced you. You know what? You're tired of all the meanness.

You've had enough. You've had enough of it. You need to go up north and apparently tuck into a nice Italian community in the Toronto suburbs. We have for you the Caledon, Ontario Real Estate Report. So here we go. Here's a house. It is a four bedroom, two bath. It's like a nice little house. Looks like a gingerbread house. It's cute. It's kind of rural, you know, kind of there's woods around it and shit. But it is, I don't know what the square footage is or the hectares or however you want to measure it up there. Square kilometers. Square kilometers.

I see this person. This person had a so-and-so hectare farm. And I'm like, well, that's not helping me any. What is a hectare? I don't know. What are we, in Czechoslovakia? I don't know how to figure out

what a hectare is. It's the only, we're the only country probably that uses acres, I think. So that's probably why. But this house is Canadian dollars. $1,398,000 Canadian dollars. What is that?

I think 50, 60 bucks, I think. No, I don't know what that is. But I know Canadian, so it would be less. I'm going to guess it's like a million American, we'll say, just to give it a thing here. Here is one five-bedroom, seven-bath T-ball for each and every b-hole.

Overflowing with T-balls. This one, it's a nice big house. Not bad. They don't have it decorated. They have it decorated weird. It's just really weird. Giant, really weird, old

like west portraits up. It's a strange. It's a strange. In Canada. In Toronto. Outside of Toronto. It's a very strange decor there.

3,999,000 Canadian dollarinis, as they call them up there. Canadian loonies and toonies. That's right. Yeah. Canadian puck bucks. So, we have, that's what they call them, right? Three million slap shots. That's right.

They have a six bedroom, five bath. This one's pretty cool. It's just like a big kind of a big suburban house, it looks like, but sprawling. Giant. Very big. Has an indoor basketball court. Holy shit. Which I want bad.

That's awesome. Temperature controlled basketball. Yeah. Oh, that's a dream. I just put a basketball hoop up at home, and my son goes, can we make it indoor? I was like, are you out of your fucking mind? I'm going to build you a building? What are you, crazy?

Do you know the difference in cost between a hoop and a building? Do you know the difference? He does not. It's absolutely astronomical. He doesn't get it. He's like, we can put wood floor down. I'm like, fucking where? What?

Go ahead. Go carve it out of a tree and put it down. Good luck. Go buy yourself a fucking Husqvarna, pal. This will cost you $6,799,000. Slapshot fuck bucks. So that's a little bit much. So it's costly.

It's got to be. It's a nice suburb of a big city. It's like Westchester. There's huge expensive houses if you go to Westchester because it's people that can still commute to, I'm sure, high-paying jobs in their major city. Things to do here. Aloha from Caledon. I think Toronto. That's right.

I think Toronto. I think Kenny versus Spenny, not Elvis. You know what I'm saying? that's right i think toronto i think kenny versus spenny not elvis you know what i'm saying um enjoy an evening of your elvis favorites yeah with two elvis tributes starring bruno nesky oh bruno hey oh pick your fucking guitar up bruno sing hey oh sing hop break hotel what'd you i want to hear it right now are they just are they just confused tell me a bunch of blue suede shoes What'd you want to hear right now? Are they just confused? Sell me a bunch of blue suede shoes, would you? Come on, Bruno. Elvis music from an Italian guy.

Hawaii. Let's mix it all up. I mean, I could see the hair. You could make some good Elvis hair, probably. It's a visual minority. It's a visual something. They're all brown fucking Hawaiians. It's a visual something.

So you can do all of this uh during this event also there is uh presented it's presented as a fundraiser for the caledon public library's new memory station which where you can convert your old movies and vinyl into audio cassette recordings so you can go back in time because if you go to a store, you can buy a record now, but it's hard to find tapes. I thought you were going to say DVDs. Yeah, no, which is still digital. Put it on a flash drive. And then there's also Caledon Day, which was the town of Caledon is excited to present Caledon Day.

What do they do here? They have free birthday cake and balloons at noon oh that's the canada caledon canada day and strawberry festival this is different sorry classic car show lawn tractor pull this sounds like well you know indiana everything america does all day strawberry breakfast oh oh man you're gonna shit yourself silly after that barbecue and strawberry desserts. This sounds delicious. Vendor's Village, Village Craft Show. There you go.

So enjoy. Crime rate in this town. Here we go. Very safe. Really? Property crime is, this is the way the stats can get them up there, is 62% less than the national average. That is very specific. Very specific. That's what I mean.

And violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault, the Canadian Mount Rushmore of crime, is also 60% less than the national average. Very safe. Yeah, it's expensive and safe, and people are moving here for a reason. This is, I want my kid to be able to ride their bicycle around the street and not be stabbed in the face. So that said, let's talk about terrible, horrible, awful murder, shall we? Canadian murder. It's polite, and it's just awful. So let's talk about terrible horrible awful murder shall we it's polite and it's it's just awful so let's talk about a man here uh wow is this an interesting guy he'll have a couple nicknames later on right but let's give you his whole name first the his full name is david

alexander snow very appropriate for a canadian man snow and when you're looking up things about a guy named snow in canadian, guess what comes up a lot? A lot of the weather? Fucking snow. Because you guys talk about snow a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. That's all they do. It's a lot of snow. How much snow?

Is it too much snow? Is it not enough snow? It's a lot of snow talk for like eight months. So it was tough to get a handle on here. But David Alexander Snow, David Snow, he's born in 1955. He'll later be known as, just to give you a little Easter egg and a little something to find later, the House Hermit. Okay. Yeah.

Sounds like one of ours, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. He stays home a lot. Sounds like Arkansas, Tennessee. Not a lot of movement in this guy. Oh, he's moving. Oh?

It's the opposite. Oh. He's moving, and the place is, that's what's weird. The house hermit is because he ends up in different houses, and he's a weird hermit. Oh. Okay. Now, he grew up, he has two siblings, and one of which we'll talk about is an older brother who's eight years older than him, and his name's Victor.

But they grow up in a brick house in Orangeville, which is in this area here, raised by his mother after his dad died of a heart attack when he was six. So, yeah, his dad died in 1961 and raised there. He kept the house after she moved to Toronto. So mom moved away and he kept this house. By himself. Yeah, the house that he grew up in, his family house that he grew up in. And he, you would imagine, hopefully he'd want to keep up the family house. He just sits in it as it deteriorates around him.

He is known, he's a real, I want to call him a lazy guy because he's a lazy guy and all the things in life that you have to do that make you live well and not be lazy but he's not lazy in the weird strange pursuits that he has go on weird guy yeah what are you tugging he sounded like go on that's not so the house the exterior paint is peeling off of it. It looks like shit. The grass is always overgrown. Even in the summer when it's like a 70-degree day, all the windows are down, curtains are drawn. Really? It's the Klopek house from the Burbs.

It's exactly the Klopek house, only it's just him inside. That would make it even creepier. It is. If there was one Klopek, that's scary. At least they get along together. None of them are murdering each other. Makes me think that they could be up to no—you know, they're fine. One guy means everybody's in danger around him.

Yeah, no one wants to be around him also, or he doesn't want to be around any people, which I can understand. Yeah. So all the neighbors said that's always the way it's been since he's been there. One person who was a neighbor, Joyce Brundle, who lives with her husband fred uh the brundle right in the brundle they own some property across the street she said you'd never know anybody lived in that house the lights are never on the grass was never cut and never turns the lights on no you wouldn't know it because everything's all closed up no not in the main house because we'll talk about he doesn't live in this main house he he lives in the attic mostly which is creepy we'll find out later on when there's just a light in the attic on only that's

even and you can't even see it there's no windows a fucking conundrum you know nothing and yeah he is he's a weird guy this david snow doing in you doing in there, David? David, David, David. When the national press gives you the name of the hermit, that's not good. No. You picture it. If I say hermit, give me a description. Well, hermit to me sounds very lonely, obviously, but safe and everything's fine. Just gross inside. To me, a hermit is a dirty troll.

Yeah. safe and everything's fine just gross inside to me a hermit is a dirty troll yeah it's a troll doll person except except cut with like soot on their face because they've they don't care yeah you know what i mean and that it could be a nice person looks like so that's barbecue sauce from 1952 oh it could absolutely be that or charcoal yeah from that barbecue that same barbecue he touched it he put the coal in and wiped it on his face because his shirt was already covered in it.

And now it's a stain. Yep. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime,

part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor.

I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details

of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media

would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye bye.

The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Another neighbor. This is Candice. This is this Candice Schultz. She's 12 years old. They interview the neighborhood children because if you want to know what the if you want to know what the vibe around the neighborhood is about someone,

you ask the local 12-year-old named Candace Schultz, because she's going to tell you everything with her pigtails. Those kids have seen everything, and they're a little hard-dried. They know every rumor. That guy I hear did this and that, and he was in Vietnam. And then this one, they don't know anything, but they have rumors. She said, quote, they say he sleeps in the attic i like her a lot and she lives next door to the house she's looking out creepy she said my mom would always tell me to keep away from him so there you go yeah 12 year old kids that's the

creepy house uh it's the creepy house. It's the one that all the kids tell horror stories about that no one will go knock on the door. The ball goes in the yard. Well, that's a gone ball. That one's done. That one's done. And the 12-year-old said, they say he sleeps in the attic. My mom told me to stay away from him.

They say. When they say, they're probably close. That's it. That's it. Well, that's just the word on the street because that's what the 12-year-olds are saying. So that's it. So residents that have known him for years describe him as adults, it says, describe him as a loner who would, quote, disappear into the bush for weeks at a time. Just disappear off into the woods for weeks at a time.

He'd leave his own home. To live in the woods for a while. Just disappear for weeks. Not for a camping trip the woods for weeks at a time. He'd leave his own home. To live in the woods for a while. Just disappear for weeks, not for a camping trip, just for weeks. On foot. On foot. Barefoot a lot of the times, if the weather permits, as we'll talk about later. Literally on his foot. He doesn't really feel the need for shoes in places where most people feel the need for shoes.

You know, like outdoors when it's cold. Court of law. Yeah. Yeah. That's a no-shoe environment for him. Court of law. Jury present. What do I need my shoes on for? There's no brambles in here.

Kick them off. Step on glass in here? We're inside. It's a comfy 68 degrees in here. What do I need shoes for? So he does have a business for a while which is strange that this man runs a business at all yeah the business he runs fits his profile perfectly though zero customers think about what businesses you pass where you never see a customer in it

antique store oh that's what he runs full of weird old objects where no one comes in and if they do come in it's like they're in your weird place. And if you walk in and then the owner is just there with shoeless, just wandering. Oh, this place is quirky. We've got to buy something. Yes. This could either be terrifying or the hottest hipster fucking spot in one of these farm, like a Massachusetts farm town you could get. I'm telling you. that's what it is.

This shit is super old and it's valuable. He doesn't even want to get his shoes in here. That's, the carpet's also antique. That's the thing. Doesn't want to ruin its antique flooring. Yeah, linoleum in here is valuable. Goes barefoot. So he runs it in Orangeville, Ontario.

That's where he runs his own antique store. And I've honestly never seen a person in an antique store who doesn't own the antique store. Yeah. I love antiquing. Oh. I go to them all the time. I love an antique, but I don't know. It's always.

I like old shit. Yeah. There's always two people in there, and one of them works there, and the other one is just leaving. I was going to say, there's always a couple people people sitting around and i don't know if they work there or not that's what there is they're like on a laptop yeah and i'm like do you work here is this also like a barnes and noble from the 90s where you're just like got a croissant and you're gonna sit around for a while words i've never said in an antique store are something like excuse me yeah i'd go around somebody or or are you looking at that?

Or let's come back later. It's too crowded now. I've never said that. I can't even get in there. Let's get out of here. I don't have enough room. Yeah. Is it stuffy in here?

It's always wide open. Wide open. So he runs a place called Simply Timeless Antiques. It's a decent name for an antique store. Not bad. But he, either before he had the antique store and after he has the antique store, because it'll go under. He's not a, shocker, here we go. He's not a, spoiler alert, not a great businessman. No.

Weird, right? It's hard to run a business from the bush at weeks at a time. You come, knock on the window, it's closed. You're like from the bush at weeks at a time you come knock on the window it's closed you're like where the fuck is he it just says gone bushing with no time return be back in some weeks on bushing be back in some weeks i don't know what that means back in a few weeks yeah he must have amazing shit in there that's what you'd think though if you saw that you'd go wow he's probably out like out searching through abandoned farmhouses for antiques right now. There is a restaurant in Madison, Wisconsin that's an Italian restaurant.

And the whole family goes back to Italy during the summer. And they put a sign on the door that said, on a family vacation, be back later. They're gone for like a month. No, in New York it's the same way. There's Italian places that will go away for August yeah they go away for august i think that's when it's in italy in august that's it nothing happens in august in italy that's the italian so you go there for that yeah or you just take your vacation here yeah you know what i mean but like in italy if you go there in august there's you're not you can't do anything because nothing's

open wow because everybody's on vacation. They shut it down. Shut it down. This is our fucking month of chill. Too hot. Yeah. Taking a month off. Genius.

Love it. We should do that. Yeah, we don't do that. We should certainly do that. We'd all get kicked out of our places because we have no money. Have no money. So he drifts from these odd jobs. He does apparently gain some local recognition in a positive way yeah which is rare for our

people here um for his he re uh shingled a turn of the century train station oh in orangeville there's like an old timey train station and he personally by hand re-shingled the whole thing and made it look very pretty and the whole town was very excited they were like hey look at david what a nice guy uh kid stay away from him yeah he did it shoeless that's weird it was really weird he he didn't have pants on most of the time either so i don't know he is described by people as about five foot eight okay uh so he's just extremely average looking five eight with a slight build kind of thin and graying hair, gold-rimmed, you know, typical Dahmer glasses, basically. You know, those glasses. Dark eyes and, quote, a strong body odor.

He's described very much like Richard Ramirez. Smells like a goat. Smells like a goat, exactly. Strong body odor, very rotten teeth, like all of them in the front, and bad, terrible breath. The only thing that could rival his body odor is when he would speak. That would overwhelm you. You'd feel that coming over the body odor like in a heat wave. Yeah.

So the guy's got, he's not an Adonis. We'll put it that way. Yeah. The kids are scared of him. Yeah. And his main, he's not an Adonis, we'll put it that way. Yeah. The kids are scared of him. Yeah. And his main, he's in the paper, he's known as a nice guy who's a loner, goes into the bush, shingles roofs and, or a roof, and has a strong body odor. Yeah, the kids are frightened of him, and he's doing nothing to fix that.

He's giving them reason to be frightened, is what it is. A smell certainly turns you off to a person. Yeah. Right away. Wreakingeking two separate reeking smells are you rotting from the inside what's happening out of both ends yeah no good it's one thing for breath or one thing for bo but to have both is like jesus christ both are my night something fix something i am scared to death every time i go am i stinking do my pits smell or my mouth am i st stinking? You smell your armpits a lot. I've noticed that.

I'm horrified. You're a pit smeller. Terrified to be the stinky guy. Yeah, no one wants to be the stinky guy. The worst. Deodorant is very important to me. I enjoy it a lot. He gets, like I said, weird obsessions and gets weirdly into things, as we'll talk about later, especially World War Two military things and things like that.

Like strategy. Not really equipment. Oh, and like heavy like ships and tanks. And in addition to he does very strange things with poop now. OK, we'll talk about that later. I'm so excited. This is some weird some weird shit i mean this is such a weird episode so he is gets into and very interested in an octagonal house okay again the fucking octagonal house comes up and when we did the episode last time about it how many people posted there's an octagonal house in everybody's town watch out for who lives there we get it yeah

something wrong is going to be there. Yeah. Now, nice people have this house. It's a rural house. It's a barn on a rural property. It's a big, like, giant barn in this rural property that's out there. Now, he was driving by it, and he noticed it about in early 1991. It's an unusual eight sided.

There's not a lot of us at this point. It's the only one in Ontario. So nowadays. So we'll talk about it. But it's on a farm called the Cunnington Cunnington, which makes me God want to say Cunnington. So it's just Cunnington sounds better than Cunnington for me. I don't know why. The Cunnington Osborne Complex, which was started by Daniel and Ellen Jane Cunnington, who moved to this property in the late 1880s.

Wow. So it's a historical property with a historical barn. The octagonal barn was built in 1894. Holy. By Daniel Cunnington. So, fuck, that's like, see? If I'm not concentrating on it, it'll come out Cunnington, no problem. So it's a historical piece, and it's significant, basically.

Sure. So the shape of the – the reason they built it that way is for extra floor space and the use of light timber framing because you're able to put less, I guess, strain on certain things. Sure. And the opportunity to have eight different doors to bring cattle in and such if it's a farm building. I guess, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, different areas or whatever. That creates a traffic jam right in the middle of the place.

You're definitely going to have something going on in the middle. It's going to be a problem. You're going to have to have a roundabout in the middle. Yeah place but you're definitely gonna have something going on in the middle it's gonna be a problem a roundabout in the middle yeah well i mean they you know they work well canada loves a roundabout we know that so this would also you could use lighter timber framing which would result in cheaper construction as well so that's another reason why they did that so the barn is constructed of milled lumber and the walls have vertical board and batten i don't know what that is. Batten's the stuff in the insulation, right? There you go. So hay and shit, probably.

There's cow poop mixed in there, I assume, to make like a cement. Right? A slurry cement of sorts. Yeah, yeah. We mix hay and cow shit and like some corn in there, and you pat it all together. Those do get hard. Yeah, that'll harden right up, especially if you heat it. Yeah.

So now he's interested in this place. He wants to buy it? Is David Snow. And so he arranges for a tour of it. Oh. Okay. We don't know if he's, I guess the couple that owns it are the Blackburns. And they're a nice couple.

He's a realtor and she's a nurse this couple and they wanted to find a buyer for the barn to so they could reconstruct it because they said it needed to be reconstructed better and they didn't want to do it so they were looking to kind of sell off this piece of their land so David arranges for a tour and he meets the Blackburns at the farm and he looks at it and you know he said he wanted wanted to, he would love to reconstruct it and he's interested in it. And he's, I'm the guy who re-shingled the old train station. Oh, well, look at you. I'm very capable.

They don't know who that is because they live in Toronto. This is just a rural property they go out to, you know, on the first weekend in the summer and stuff like that. So a little more about David. Let's see what his older brother Victor Victor, has to say about him. Because eight years older, it's a good bird's eye view of a personality. He's stored everything of that kid's life. He's seen him grow up. So eight years older, he said that he called his brother a, quote, flaky layabout,

which is not exactly complimentary. No, there's nothing in that that's nice. And everything we've described, that's kind of how we've described him, too, is a flaky layabout. They said he did good work when he wanted to, like the shingling and, like, restoring antiques that he was interested in and things like that.

Sure. But he couldn't hold a job for shit. Yeah. That was his problem. And the reason why wasn't because of his skills or his talent. It's his personality. His brother said, quote, he was always in a rage with somebody that he worked for. He's mad.

He's that guy. He told me to do that. I don't like the way he said it. And I'm too good for that. He's that guy. How dare he tell me what to do when that's literally my job description. He's low man on the totem pole who thinks he's smarter than low man on the totem pole, which he might be, but he hasn't worked his way up to that yet.

It takes time. Yeah. So he's always in a rage. He's that guy. He's a fucking son of a bitch. We've all worked with that guy. We know that guy. And he's little, James.

And you've got to understand, when you're this little, it feels like you're getting treaded on constantly anyway. But it's back then. I donaded on constantly yes but it's back then I don't know Canada is everybody huge around I don't know in my life everybody's been huge yeah I guess but you're that's you're almost out you're closer to the average height than I am 510 for his average American man yeah look around everybody's that small everybody's that size. Why does my neck hurt? Everybody's fucking short. You're looking down.

I'm a freak. Yeah. You can see me from how far away at the airport. There he is. And I'm not that tall. Six four isn't that tall. I'm not like fucking, you know,

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar walking down. Yeah. Six eight gets attention. Six four can technically blend in unless you're at the airport yeah unless you're in a sea of people where it's like there's two there's three guys who are tall spaced out a good amount it's fascinating when you can get a good chunk uh sample size of people and then you then you really stand out yeah then you realize oh yeah that's right six four and over is one percent of the population of amer. It's not a lot in the airport. It really shows. So he's his brother says that he ran a couple of antique shops. David did in Orangeville. But over the years, he said that Victor himself would have to cover some of the checks that David would eventually bounce.

Victor himself would have to cover some of the checks that David would eventually bounce. Oh, he'd eventually just mess up business wise and he'd bounce checks and he'd be in trouble. And then the checks when there's no money, Victor would cover it for him so he wouldn't get arrested and, you know, whatever. So he said David's behavior was a constant source of stress to the entire family. Oh, he's the guy. He's the one where we're like, oh, David. Oh, boy. Oh, I don't know. The house still looks like that. No, he hasn't cut the guy. He's the one where we're like, oh, David, oh, boy. Oh, well, I don't know. The house still looks like that. No, he hasn't cut the lawn. No, he hasn't left. He's been in the bush for a month.

He said that he, quote, refused to shave, bathe, or get his hair cut. That's basic hygiene. Yeah, he wouldn't do any of that. And he would just sleep in his clothes for weeks, the same clothes. He'd just wear them for weeks and sleep in them without bathing or getting a haircut or shaving or doing anything. It doesn't feel gross? Not for him. That's what I mean.

That shows, I'm sorry, there's mental illness there. Yeah. If you don't feel weird about that, that's some sort of mental illness is when people don't take care of themselves like that. That itch between your ball sack and your thigh is terrible. Yeah.

Oh, imagine what his butthole feels like after all that. It feels disgusting. He's got, he's probably got like, you know how people make like a ball of yarn? Yeah. He's got like a dingleberry ball on his, because, you know, he's. His whole butthole is gross. It's got to be disgusting. It's nasty stuff.

There's no wrinkles. It's just smooth in there. It's just been spackled up. Spackled shut. And you know that's why part of what the smell comes from is all these, he's not bathing, it's the same clothes. Even if he put on a fresh pair of clothes, it would cover, it would at least hold it in a little bit.

Yeah, the downy might bat down the cheese. Put a coat on him or something. That's what the Victorians used to do back in the day. Just wear like eight layers of shit because they didn't bathe either so you could do that but but when you rub your body and like rolls you know what i mean the the the dirt rolls the dirt burritos that you can roll off that's so gross if you're like out doing shit for a day in the yard yeah imagine having that for weeks disg Disgusted with myself. Oh, man. Rolling out dirt turds off your arm. Oh, God.

And people have needs. Like, how do you beat off? Do you know what I mean? How do you have any sort of sexual contact with yourself? He's very interested in that. Really? Oh, yeah. His dick's probably the cleanest thing on his body. Because he's vigorously rubbed it clean. He's all...

They look at him and they're like, is he a, is that a visible minority? And they're like, no, no, it's a white feller. I just looked at his, he took his dick out and it's pink as can be. It's a brown man with a pink dick is what that is. Boy, I'll tell you something else. That's right now. So Victor said he asked him, quote, do you not think something is wrong with you on those points alone? Honestly.

Look at you. Yes. Dude, look at all of us and everyone else you see in society. Right. And maybe that's why your antique shops don't do well. Right. Because you're in an enclosed space. They open the door and go, holy shit, what is happening in here?

He's like, there's old things. It's stinky. Don't worry about it. When air moves around you, though, and you smell that, do you just go, God, it smells terrible around here and walk away? You smell like a corpse. He's got to be used to it by now. So he said that he asked his brother that, and he said that his brother said in reply, David said, quote, I am what I am. That's me.

Oh, Papa. I am what I am. He said, I cannot change. I live only for today. Yes, you can. I cannot change i live only for today yes you can i cannot change i can live only for today which means in the bush or he's meant that there's a mental illness there obviously there's something going on so his brother said i think at the end of that discussion he was in tears which you could see streaked down his face because it cleaned a a path going right down his cheeks they were like keep doing

that you're clean streaks yeah eventually it'll look better just keep keep get the dirt so i got a trickle of shower keep going keep going uh also his brother described him as secretive yet polite a secretive yet polite loner interested in antiques and military matters. Okay. Military matters, quote unquote. He's drifting from, like we said, drifting from job to job, going into the bush for weeks, coming out of the bush with the same clothes on he went in with. That's horrifying.

Just slept in them and then sleeping in those clothes for another month. Who cares? I think he would change when shit would rip and it wasn't functional anymore. It was useless, yeah. Yeah, a function he was going for. His brother also, later on, we'll call him a walking time bomb, time bomb, walking time bomb,

who would reject pleas to stabilize his life or seek any kind of psychiatric help at all as well. Never would do that. He said whenever he brought that up, Victor, to David, David, quote, he said, Victor said, quote, he basically laughed at me. Don't need it, feeling great. Me and my dirt burritos are going to go do something.

Teeth broken off at the gums and he doesn't care. All over, all the front. I can't. Doesn't matter. Smilers. Oh, God, Jesus, man. No biters. It doesn't matter. Smilers. Oh, God, Jesus, man. No biters. Yeah.

Nothing to. You're literally like, that's the first thing people see. Well, not only that, you need that to bite things to eat them. So even if you don't care what anybody thinks and you don't see anybody and you live in the bush, you need to bite things and eat them. Right. It would be helpful to you. To get sustenance in your body.

Those are useful. Never mind the social aspects of it. Wow. So, like I said, he runs the Simply Timeless Antiques in Orangeville, and it suddenly closes down, though. Okay. He said that his brother just, out of nowhere, it closed down about April of 1991. Okay.

When it closes, they said now he'll tell people, David, when he talks to them, that it was the recession that was going on at the time. I don't know if that really works, though. Antiques aren't like a real big boom industry. Like when people, when regular people, middle class people are making decent livings, they're not like, now it's time to buy the antiques. Like certain people buy antiques and they're not really recession shoppers you know what i'm saying the recession's coming on babe

we got to cut some spending let's start at the antiques stop buying so many goddamn antique lamps the whole fucking house is filled with them for christ's sake we can't even afford the electricity to feed oh my god that's the oil it. This one takes whale blubber oil. Where do you even get that? Now we've got to get wicks? I can't do that. I don't know where to get wicks. I don't have a wick guy.

So his brother said that David's finances were always chaotic and the antique stores were never operated properly. He said, quote, David was not a victim of the recession. David was a walking time bomb all his life. That seems fair. His ex-business partner and ex-business partner and husband of a woman that will write a book about him that is sort of partially fictionalized and made into a very fictionalized movie. A guy named Darius Shaw. He said that their relationship went sour in 91 and and Snow left Shaw with $2,600 in debts. Oh.

So he was like, yeah, he kind of left me holding the bag to pay all his shit back. Wasn't real thrilled with that. So then, right after that, that's when his antique store closed down. He just, David just disappears. Okay. Which is normal for him.

Right. And once he's not tied to a business, then he can really just pop into the bush for a while. Yeah. I got nowhere to be. He's tied to neither business nor hygiene. So he really isn't. He's bound by neither business nor hygiene. He doesn't have a dentist appointment.

No, he certainly does not. At the time of this, he's right around the time he disappears. All around here, there's a lot of these vacation cottages, weekend places, and there's a rash of petty just cottage break-ins all around Caledon. So all around Caledon where that barn was. That barn was in Caledon that he looked at the octagonal job. So all around there, there's these petty break-ins. People come up to their place. They haven't been there.

They're coming up for a weekend in one month, and they're like, oh, shit, somebody broke into my place, and there's stuff missing. There used to be tubes of Doritos minis in here. Yes, when we found that those are delicious. Those are terrifying because you can drink Doritos, he said. You just tilt it up to your mouth and put them in there. That's not right because it's in a Pringles tube. Doritos has stopped making flavors and figured out how to get them in your body fast. Tiny triangles that come in a fast-pitched Pringle tube.

You just bow. It's just gravity-fed Pringles. They're amazing. Little tiny Doritos, though. It's just gravity-fed Pringles. They're amazing. Little tiny Doritos. It's genius. So these people would get back, and they'd be like, not only is someone broken and like, you know, you could petty little things, but they've obviously been living there, squatting there for a while. They'd find, like, weird porn mags around.

They'd find, like, weird porn mag What? They'd find weird porn mags. They would find large bottles of urine. Oh. Just big old bottles of pee. Perverted Howard Hughes breaking in here. And they think that's weird. Yeah. And, quote, feces wrapped in newspaper.

What? in newspaper what he would he would wrap his shit in newspapers and store his pee in large jars while looking at porn mags and not changing his clothes or bathing he broke in doors like to do this yes or go piss on a tree don't put it in a bottle and save it. Wrap it in the funnies and leave it in the dry. He just would wrap it in the local. Just wrap it in the editorial. That's all. I don't like that play. The local production of My Fair Lady was a disaster. I'm going to wrap my feces in it.

I'm going to shit on the review of the reviewers shitting on this play. Like a puppy. He's training himself. I want to know, does he lay it down on the ground like a dog and squat over it? And then wrap it? Or wrap it. Or does he put it between the seat of the toilet and the toilet itself so it forms like a catch like a net almost build a little nest and then two hand and put both hands under his bottom as that could do yeah that could be nice also or does he use newspapers as a

diaper and then just take it off and fold it all up i'm not sure but he's got the one feces wrapped in this is we've had almost 400 episodes of small town murder. We've never had. This is crazy. Newspaper wrapped shit before. That's a new one. And broken into. Yeah.

It's somebody else's place. I'm finding that. Like, okay. I mean, they're obviously whacking off, shitting into newspapers. This is very strange. That's odd. Some of them would have things like a piece of jewelry, a little bit of clothing, a little property, but not stripped bare or anything like that. Shit that they could carry, that the intruder carried.

And basics. Because, by the way, he does not and does not know how to and will not drive. Really? So no car or any driving ever for this guy all on foot as whatever you can carry on foot gets rides takes the bus takes a train hunter-gatherer hunter-gatherer just wow what the fuck no shoes so stinking so um he's a he's an interesting cat here um in summer of 1991 the antique stores closed down in April. He's obviously had some problems.

Here's a guy named Kevin DeSaulniers. He hired David as a laborer. Because, you know, he was just, he had to make, you have to eat whatever you can eat. I don't know, something soft, but you have to have something so you can poop it out into a newspaper.

You can make newspaper poops with it so he hired this guy had hired david yeah and um in the summer of 91 david snow orders ammunition for a revolver he'd been carrying he'd just been carrying a revolver around in his briefcase which is hilarious also this total scumbag has just got a briefcase carrying around what's in your briefcase paperwork no an unloaded gun that i have no ammunition for an unloaded gun and about seven teeth and about yeah a couple of them fell out i just spit them into my briefcase and i'm done with them the clang around with the pistol so he'd been carrying this briefcase to a job that they were working on together and eventually he asked what was in the briefcase and he had a gun in there so

that's all he's got thank you for bringing a gun to work i appreciate that that's all your important papers oh much better it's just a gun and your incisors perfect excellent so something else that doesn't belong on this job site. Wow, yeah. Please, please. He said that David tried to purchase bullets at the gun shop in the town they were working in, and he was told none were in stock,

so they'd have to be ordered. So three weeks later, he went back to the store, and they hadn't gotten there yet, and he was fucking living he's like where's my bullets are you heard him three weeks ago how long does it take to get bullets out here jesus christ him by now yeah this is ridiculous i could have made him he was really pissed um so he again would keep um drifting this is the time period where he would leave this guy's job go somewhere else show up back with this guy wearing the same clothes as when he left.

So now we'll talk a little bit about Allison and Darius Shaw, who Darius was the guy who got. The octagonal house. No, no, no. That's the Blackburns who had the octagonal house. Who was Darius? Darius Shaw is one of his old business partners. Right. Who got left holding a $2,600 bag.

Hey. There you go. There's more than a little green bag there. So this Allison wrote a book called A Friend of the Family. Hey, there you go. There's more than a little green bag there. So this Allison wrote a book called A Friend of the Family. And at the end of the show, I'll give you a review of this book from a newspaper because it is not good. The book and the movie both get terrible reviews. That happens when you fuck reality.

It's a little weird. Apparently Shaw had met, Allison had met, and Darius had met him in 1988 when they moved to Orangeville, Ontario. They lived in Toronto and they moved out there. So at the time, David was an antique and junk dealer, probably more leaning on the junk, I would assume. That's one way to call it. It's something. And they went into business together, Darius and David, the D&D boys there, dismantling and salvaging old houses. And then Allison Shaw used a corner of Snow's antique shop to sell her paintings that she made. So, yeah, they let her use some real estate because, honestly, an antique shop. You can sell anything there.

Yeah. Like I said, the amount of foot traffic that it's getting is not much. So, you know. But there are a lot of effort people. It's a lot of. Oh, yeah. Tons. It's not working for.

It's doing. You know what I mean? Making and doing. Oh, it's a lot. It's a lot of work. A lot of work. So David started to become a fixture at their house all the time. Would just always be there.

Even would, you know, pick up and hold their infant daughter. Really? He had to be less smelly at this point. But then no one ever says he wasn't smelly. So they apparently just let a smelly man hold their daughter. Jesus. It's like, I'm sorry. You reek.

You're going gonna scar this kid i can't clean up oh and this is a man that has a house at this point too oh yeah he lives in a house he's got a house he's talking about property because lord he never came back after the octagonal house thing he looked he did a tour of this house that he was into and then never came back to it so because that was right at right before his antique business shut down and then he just disappeared pops up as a laborer for this other guy goes back into the bush for a while right so it's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast morbid we're your hosts i'm alina urquhart and i'm ash kelly and our show is part true crime part spooky and part comedy the stories we cover

are well researched he claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper.

In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced.

She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran,

Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Now, Allison would later, even though at the time she had no problem letting this man hold her infant daughter and everything like that, later on would express her uneasiness about him. And she called it a like a nameless fear, something, you know, hindsight. I call that that's hindsight. Yeah, that is. It's called intuition, and people have that. Not sure if you had it, but you had hindsight. I'll tell you that much.

Now looking back, it hurts. Yeah, looking back, I don't know. I made a mistake. She said that his appalling personal hygiene made him in close quarters when he came over for dinner or something. Everybody called it a stomach-churning experience. He stunk that bad. It's that bad.

It's that bad. It's weeks. It makes Richard Ramirez seem fine. They said he smelled like a goat. A goat. But I feel like this is more than a goat. Barnyard smell, and this is funk. This is worse.

This is funk. This is just pure funk. Yeah, I feel like David, at least when he would murder somebody, he'd go home and shower the blood off probably to the sleazy motel. Whereas this guy doesn't even care what's going on. That's probably what he smelled like. He probably didn't brush his teeth and then he laid in a bed that hasn't been washed since fucking the place was built. Absolutely.

So it's gross. It's disgusting. So now they were business partnered with him. Yeah. The first child used to call him Uncle David. Uncle Stinky over here. But obviously a lot of women got bad vibes off him. It's called at one point in the newspaper a mixture of indifference and contempt is the way he would act toward women.

Like very odd for a guy who, real real arrogant cocky for a guy who's stinks like this you don't get to know you're good to have an attitude when you're the problem he acts like he's like an nba player around chicks like in a bar or something like a mixture of indifference and contempt you know like not no he's got an ego yeah he's got a little bit of an ego on him so um she would later claim allison sh, by the way, again, don't know if this is true, but she would later learn and tell everybody that Snow had made her the center of an elaborate fantasy where she was his wife. Oh, boy. So he had this fantasy where like, oh, I'm in the place of this Darius guy and this is my wife.

So he's got desire to function and be a part of society. He's got a desire for something, but it's a weird desire. And let's start talking about those desires here. October 2nd, 1991 is when a woman named Carolyn Case, she's 47 years old, and she works at a gift shop in toronto and it's called the jeweled elephant and she disappears from her store that day disappears poof thin air gone um a couple days later they find a uh her blood-stained mercedes-benz, my. In a ditch near Caledon. OK. OK.

And they're like, OK, this is the day her family reports are missing that day. The next day they find her Mercedes out there. But there's no trace of her. Nobody. Nobody. No, nothing. But the Metro Toronto police said that David Snow was a good suspect in her disappearance based on him being in the area at the time.

So later on in Caledon, her skeleton will be discovered. What they believe will be her skeleton. We never get a complete exact identification or if they do, they Canada is a lot different with privacy. Canada is very different with privacy canada is very different with privacy like for any kind of victim stuff they have to be able they have to like release their info and for the press to be able to really report on it whereas in america obviously it's you know it's just up your ass with a microscope so everything's public just uh yeah once you're dead we tell everybody everything well i mean you're dead so what the fuck do you care i guess is the thought process once you're dead you're not your need for privacy has lessened a lot i guess is the way they

look at it whereas in canada it's polite respect it's more yeah i don't know that's the other thing too i don't know if it's the law or just politeness i'm not sure i'm sure it's yeah i'm they gotta have just man their politeness has made privacy laws i'm sure so um it's a white mercedes-benz it's bloodstained uh there and uh later on they will find her just her skeleton months later pretty close to the car actually really yeah not very far into a wooded area there but her bones are just spread out it's pretty creepy stuff canadian animals got a hold of her maybe but based on where they are i mean i'm sure some animals got a hold of her but it doesn't where they are i mean i'm sure some animals got a hold of her but it doesn't look like they were these bones were carried here because they're all kind of

together they may have been dispersed by themselves or dispersed by an animal but just in the general area but that's that if you find them all near a general area that's probably where she was and uh they said at this point in time later on when they find her months later, they couldn't even determine if it was Carolyn Case. Her husband later would say that police told him privately, though, that that's probably his wife. It's got to be. Because it fits the height, age, and it's near her car, and she disappeared. So, I mean, logic would say that. Have you found her?

Well, then I think we did. I think we probably did, yeah. So he said, quote, this is something we find very frustrating. It would have been an awful lot easier on us and much easier to unravel if they had found her at the time. They don't find her right when she disappears. They said, I don't know how you miss it when you're that close to it because the car was right there. She was right fucking there and they didn't see. That hurts.

They couldn't fan out a little bit. I mean, Jesus Christ. and they didn't see. That hurts. They couldn't fan out a little bit. I mean, Jesus Christ. So winter of 91 comes, and there's a guy named Barry Barnett, and he's taking his wife around a walk with his wife,

not taking his wife for a walk like she's a dog, but taking a walk with his wife around Green Lake, and there's another couple there as well, and they're all taking a walk with his wife around green lake and there's another couple there as well and they're all taking a walk around when they decide hey let's check on our friend's cottage we have a you know we all know each other here our friend has this cottage we're walking by him he lives in toronto he's not hasn't been here in a while let's let's make sure it's okay it is nice to see somebody's like luxury shit yeah let's check it out and let's see what he's got and also there's been a lot

of these break-ins they just want to make sure it's all secure and you know that sort of thing so they said that except for the people who own the land and it's 17 people around this lake that own the land around it at the time they said that few people knew that there were cottages even along the shores because they're way back in the woods and the bushes. So it's very private. Awesome. Just the people who know there. So Barnett, the guy leading this party, he walks into the cottage with a key, the key that the owner gave to him to check on his place.

And at the time, they open the door, and this guy hasn't been there in a long time and not expected to be there. There's a pot of soup simmering on the stove. That's odd. You smell that's odd you smell soup that's you smell dinty more what's going on he lives in vancouver the owner in toronto okay so he's up these he just leaves a pot boiling casey all the time just keep it going it's one of those forever forever shoes they just yeah they keep it going put new stuff in there and he said the place was in a quote a general state of disarray. It's just a mess, and there's stew going on.

There's soup going on here. He said then suddenly a shaggy-looking stranger pops out of the shadows holding a large revolver. Oh! That's not what you want to see. That explains the soup, obviously. He's real hungry. Yeah. And obviously you know it's his soup because he has no teeth.

So that'll do it. So the guy who Alex Rayburn, who was one of the people in this party, he owns a cottage nearby. He said that this intruder orders the party to sit down on the couch. Sit down for a minute there. Then they said the man became almost hysterical because one of the women from the party, and these are old people, these are all in their 70s and 80s, she bolted from the cabin when he turned around.

She just jetted out the door and took off and went to a neighbor's house and was yelling, call the police, call the police, as she's running away. And he didn't know what to do. He couldn't go chase her because then they're all in here. So he just started crying.

He just started like, he just snapped. couldn't handle it he just they said he became almost hysterical he just was losing his mind this is now out of control for me but he wouldn't like talk about it the guy rayburn guy said quote he didn't say anything but he made the three of them sit on the chesterfield for about 10 minutes while he gathered up his stuff and took off oh so he made them stay there and just grabbed his shit his you know boiling pot of soup and jetted out the door walked out with a steaming ass pot that's it i'm out of here oh shit let me get a spoon so they said that the owner later on estimated that the guy must have been there for three or

four days yeah is what it seemed like. But he didn't steal anything. Took nothing. But he didn't also plan on leaving then. So maybe he had some, you know, was planning on shit. Yeah. They said nobody was hurt. But these people in the Green Lake community freaked the fuck out. Obviously, they were like, we didn't even know.

People knew we were here. Meanwhile, there's squatters just making soup in our cottages. Meanwhile, there's squatters just making soup in our cottages. So when they hear later on that it could have been a guy named David Snow who could be dangerous and they called him a military buff that is, quote, involved in bizarre war games. We'll talk about that as well. Yeah. They said because at this point they want to talk to David Snow because they think he's responsible for a string of cottage break-ins. And so they want to chit-chat with him.

Is there gift-wrapped shit in this house too? There is not. Yes, there's gift-wrapped shit everywhere. Everywhere he goes, he leaves a trail of newspaper-wrapped turds in his wake. Every single place. I feel like if he's just walking and something falls out of his pocket, that's probably what it is. He gives it to him at Christmas. You know, there you go.

It's already wrapped. Just puts a bow on it. There you go. So March 18, 1992, a couple months go by. There is an elderly couple who were in North York, which is a more rural area. And they are basically essentially carjacked, but with the person telling them to drive because the person who carjacks them doesn't drive. So they're forced at gunpoint to drive this man from a Midland area cottage to downtown Toronto.

Oh. All the way into the city. All the way into the city and it's it's david snow holding them at gunpoint they own a summer cottage up there apparently they uh they came to check on the place and found him inside and rather than taking off he held them at gunpoint and said get in the car you're driving me somewhere so he holds them there and uh forces them into the car forces them to drive to their telling him that we're driving to your house in toronto oh god that's where we're going we're going to your house so they're going there when they got to a busy intersection they're in the middle of the intersection the old man just stops in the middle of the intersection says i'm not fucking moving

an inch and everybody stopped beeping at him he's in the middle of a busy intersection which is brilliant yeah you want to get attention stop your car in the middle of a busy intersection in a major metropolitan area other people will murder you but the guy in the car won't and there's a cop right there always always and there's someone coming with a tire iron and like a cab driver yelling in sri lankan that he's going to murder you there's going to be all sorts of shit going on but you will get attention. A child on her way to her ballet that is late, and now she's pissed, too. Everyone's pissed at you. So at that point, he's holding the gun up.

He's like, well, I'm going to shoot you. He goes, well, go ahead. You're going to fucking, what are you going to do, shoot me and walk out and all these people? You're going to be caught in your court right now, asshole. So Snow didn't know what to do, so he just jumped out of the car and ran away. If you just refuse him, he'll just freak out. He doesn't know how to deal with it. That old man was smart.

He did. That was a brilliant move. So he disappeared into a crowd of people because it was a busy downtown area. So that was that. No one ever found him. He did rob them he said well give me your cash and they gave him his cash and he took the fuck off he's like give me your cash and i'll go and that's what he did bus yeah why not or a train i don't drive so he um they were unharmed

though physically unharmed very lucky people now april 13th 1992 uh remember the Blackburns? Yeah, with the octagon house. Yeah, octagonal barn there. Ian Blackburn, 55 years old. Nancy Blackburn, 49 years old. Ian is a partner in a real estate firm of Harrison and Blackburn. Doing great. Doing great. His wife is a public health nurse, is Nancy.

They have no children. Oh. 55, 49, they were never able to have kids. So they have instead a summer cottage. That's what you get when you don't have kids and you both work good jobs. That's the tradeoff. You're winning. Yeah, exactly. They have like land and octagonal 100-year-old barns and shit. And time.

And time to have them rebuilt. Yeah. So based on friends, one friend said they just lived their lives around each other, loved hanging out with each other, did everything together. Nancy has some sort of ailment, by the way, and we never really find out what that is. But for they've been together for about 25 years and they said they used to make weekend escapes all the time to the Caledon farmhouse. That's where this is. It's red and white and beautiful and they love it. And a friend from Caledon up there said, quote, they came to the country to get away from people. They didn't encourage chatter with the neighbors. And we respected that. Oh,

private people. They come up there, they stay private and whatever. And, you know, nobody bothers them. They don't bother anybody else. Why not? I need a company in the city. I'm bringing a company in the city. I'm here to be alone. Exactly. Exactly. So on this day in April of 1992, April 13th, Jamie Osborne is their nephew, a guy named Jamie Osborne. They haven't been heard from in a few days.

It's been about six days. Ian and Nancy. Yeah. So they're like, where the hell are Uncle Ian and Aunt Nancy? What's going on here? So he got a phone call, Jamie did, from his father who said, yeah, we haven't heard at all from them. We've called them. No answer. We called at both places.

They said, will you do me a favor? And you're by their house in Toronto there. Will you cruise by and just stop by and see if there's a car in the driveway? Knock on the door. Just see what's going on over there. See if they're sick or what's happening. So when he shows up, he finds four or five days worth of newspapers on the door just see what's going on over there see if they're sick or what's happening so when he shows up he finds four or five days worth of newspapers on the doorstep which is means someone hasn't been there usually and he gets to the doorbell though he rings the doorbell

nobody answers yeah what the fuck so he notices that nancy's car her chevy celebrity is parked in the driveway so he's like okay now ian drives a maroon Cadillac that's not in the driveway. But there's a Chevy Celebrity in the driveway, and he says, so he just went over and looks at it. Looks and, you know, you put your hands up around your face and you look through the glass. That's what he's doing. Smudges on the window. And he looked in there and he said that he saw some tissues with bloodstains on them sitting in the console area. Bloodstained.

Yeah, a bunch of them. It was a lot of tissues. Yeah, but not like obviously a body's worth of blood on tissues, but just a lot of blood. Too much blood to be- Just enough to cause panic. Enough to be that you wouldn't just leave that in your car here. So he looks at that he thought that was weird so he walks around the car and he's like fuck i don't get it so the car's

open so he's like well let me see um if there's anything in the trunk if their suitcase is packed or something in there and maybe they came back he's just trying to piece out together what's going on yeah so he opens up the trunk from the you know inside the glove compartment you pop it there on a chevy celebrity and then he goes to the back to look in there and there are no suitcases in there nothing so that's not a clue but there is a horrible horrible thing in there two horrible things here there is the bodies of both ian and nancy he found them in the stuffed into the trunk of their car oh my god and they've been there a few days oh no you know what that smells like that is awful even with the cool air

at night that's not great um uh now ian is there he's fully clothed nancy's nude which is a bad sign as well they're found in the trunk of the car parked in the driveway on St. Leonard's Avenue, April 13th, 1992. So obviously the nephew freaks out, calls the cops, does normal things like that. The autopsy showed that Ian had died of asphyxia and that Nancy had been strangled. Oh, my. Not wonderful. had been strangled. Oh, my.

Not wonderful. They also found, when they do the full examination, multiple blunt force injuries and bruises all over Nancy's body. Lots of hits. And ligature marks on her ankles, wrist, neck, and mouth. She was tied up a lot. A lot. This is not good at all.

And Ian had a blunt force injury to his neck, ligature marks on his right wrist, his thighs, and above his knees. Okay. So these two have been through some shit and stuffed into a trunk and left in their own driveway. Right. Now, where's their other car is number one. So automatically police are like, well, we figure wherever that other car is is probably where the killer is. I'm sure the killer stole their car.

Right. Why would you kill people, stuff them in one car and leave their other car? So that doesn't make sense. So they investigate and what they end up finding out happened is, let's find out here.

Ian went to the farm alone to get ready. I guess they were going to go to it next weekend. He was going to get some shit ready. Prep some stuff. Prep some stuff.

I guess Nancy wasn't well. She wasn't feeling well. So she was not there. Prep some stuff. I guess Nancy wasn't well. She wasn't feeling well. So she was not there. She was home. And they said that quote, we know, this is a police officer, we know she was asking of Ian's whereabouts from people. Apparently he didn't tell

her that he was going up to the cabin. He just went up to start doing this shit in the cottage, but she didn't know about it. So we don't know what he was doing up there or what he was planning on doing, but they said it didn't seem to be a planned visit to the cottage. So they're wondering if somehow somebody lured him up there or something like that. Now, when he enters the house, immediately he's jumped upon walking through the door. Surprised him. He's jumped, beaten up, and bound. Okay. So, yeah, he never got to do anything. That's why we don't really know what he was there to walking through the door. Surprised him. He's jumped, beaten up, and bound.

Okay. So, yeah, he never got to do anything. That's why we don't really know what he was there to do because we don't know. Who knows? Maybe he was meeting a chick up there. I'm not saying he is. I'm just saying he could have been doing anything up there. He just stopped right away.

And his wife didn't know what he was doing up there. So, David Snow, it is, doing this, obviously. He ties up Ian and threatened him with a gun, put a gun to his head and said, call your wife in Toronto and tell her to come here. We need her. She's coming here. Tell her to come here now. Now, Ian was like, holy shit, this is the guy that showed the octagonal barn.

Dude, we'll make a deal on the barn. Jesus, calm down. You don't need your wife to make the decision. Yeah, you offered 20% under asking. Obviously, we're not going to refuse that. a deal on the barn jesus calm down i mean needs your wife to make the decision i yeah you offer 20 under asking obviously we're not going to refuse that let's get in the neighborhood of like 12 or something we can talk about it you know what i'm saying jesus let's be reasonable you know so not that this is funny but fuck man so they um now ian wasn't seen by anybody up there but several residents including his sister brother-in-law, his brother-in-law

and his sister, by the way, have property next door, and a patrolling officer in that area, all saw his Cadillac parked at the farmhouse. Oh. So they knew he must have been there, which was normal for them to go up there. Now, Nancy came home from work. Ian wasn't home. She was surprised. She called around trying to find, do you know where Ian is?

Is he with you? Is he going over here? What's going on? So then at 7.36 p.m. there is a three minute phone call made from the farmhouse in Caledon to the Blackburn Toronto home. Three minutes.

During that three minutes she was convinced to come up there she drives up the following morning drives up to the farm she arrives at the cottage as she opens the door she's immediately attacked uh he immediately uh beats her strips her naked yeah and uh begins to choke her as well. And also sexually assault her in whatever way. We don't know exactly. During this time, we all believe we believe this is all done right in front of Ian, who is tied up right there. Now, after he chokes her to death, which is what he does, he strangles her to death right in front of them.

Yep. After tying her up and doing all sorts of weird sexual shit with her here um he places her in the trunk of the car and says all right ian we're going for a ride because i don't fucking drive yeah so we're gonna put your wife in the trunk and then you're gonna drive me to your house in toronto that's how this is gonna work in the cadillac so they drive body in the trunk of the celebrity chevy celebrity they leave the cadillac up there at the at the cottage when they get to the house in toronto he just kills ian yeah and then stuffs him in the car right next to his wife closes it up and fucking walks away wow that's it leaves him right in the driveway like nobody's nobody knows anything holy hell that is why do all of that he doesn't get

much out of it that's the thing there's no car there's an escape a little bit of cash the sexual stuff he's got a sexual thing with this and i think he likes doing this in front of the husband as well i think he's into that i think he's got a lot of weird predilections um uh so the connection here to the car case skeleton, as we talk about, because this is when they find the skeleton right around now within a few days. This is only a few kilometers southeast of of Carolyn's skeletons found a few kilometers southeast of the house of the of the farm. So that's it's up there of the of the Caledon place with the octagonal barn. So it's all in the same little area. So he could have taken her then went here.

They said they searched the rural area west of Toronto after they had questioned Snow about Carolyn case. And they said that it was just inconclusive. They didn't have enough to charge him. They had no evidence. So he said, no, he didn't do anything. So they were like, well well who the fuck knows um they said though the bones were found her bones were found 500 meters from her car they couldn't fucking look in a 500 meter radius around that car you can't canvas that entire jesus let a couple of dogs run around um and they said at

this point they still can't determine if those bones are Carolyn Case, which is fucking crazy. Now, at this moment, the police announced that David Snow is a suspect in the Blackburn murders. And he completely drops out of sight. Really? Disappears, gone. And he's a guy who's got ties to nothing. He doesn't even need clean clothes. He can disappear without a trace except for the pig pen trail behind him yeah except for the cloud behind him and the flies and the flies it's

difficult so and much like richard ramirez he was the same way he could go to el paso for a few weeks they'd be like well no one's getting attacked right but nobody would notice him so they said everything was inconclusive now um they found by the way the bones that they found were 457 meters away from the car to be exact which is 1500 feet it's so close yep um it's such so fucking close they said that uh they by the way that was the last day of searching they were going to look for the skeleton oh they said if they hadn't found anything that day that would have been the last day of the search. Thank God. They would have had to wait for somebody to trip over the bones,

who was going on a walk or something. And they said that they're waiting on dental charts to figure it out. The detectives erected a tent over the site where the body was found and took the skeleton. They were planning on taking it to the Center for Forensic Sciences in Toronto for detailed examination.

They said at this point, we can't even tell if it's a male or female. The remains have been there for a while. That's all we know right now. So during all this, David takes a train to Vancouver. Yeah. See ya. How far is that? Well, it's all the way in the west.

Yeah. Vancouver is all the way. It's a long ride. Yeah, that's north of Seattle, Portland. We have people that come from Vancouver to see our shows so on a train on a train jesus think about how long of a ride all the way across canada pretty much yeah it's a cross-country trip so um this is when the murder stories are all over the newspaper now the blackburns the kidnapping the case carolyn case bones everything's everywhere um but the police at first say they had no leads.

But then in addition to the bones, they find an old garbage bag that was thrown away in a ditch near the site of the murder. Okay. In this garbage bag, they find large bottles of urine. Yeah. Newspaper-wrapped feces. It's his calling card. Yeah. Newspaper-wrapped feces.

It's his calling card. Dude, you would have so much less evidence on you if you'd stop wrapping your newspapers in shit and leaving them places. Toilet's the ultimate clean getaway. You flush it, it disappears forever. It's gone. Yeah. Gone. Only remnants is the smell that the fan takes care of.

That's it. That's it. So, wow. Maybe that maybe that's who needs a big fan the whole time around them so that's crazy they find large bottles of urine newspaper wrapped feces and a collection of military writings organized to a list okay these were similar evidence of what they found in all the break-in cottages they'd find these weird lists they'd find porn mags what is cottages. They'd find these weird lists. They'd find porn mags. What is the list? And they'd find shit and piss everywhere. What is this? Hang up with the list.

I'll tell you exactly about the lists in a minute here. I'll give you details of exactly what's on them. Oh, boy. So even with all of this evidence here, they decided to take some of this to the public because they couldn't find him. So they're like, we can either keep it private and have this guy live in the shadows or we can put him on public blast and hope somebody fucking tells us where he is really embarrass him because you can smell him from a mile away someone's going to find him so they posted a collection of the military writings here to the media like what was in that do you know anyone who writes this weird shit right um they said

he's someone that breaks uh that break and enters cottages and tries to keep himself in remote areas and has and has had a couple of confrontations in the past few months. And all of these break and enters. There's not a very obvious sign of entry. So people may not have suspected anyone was in their house as much like he didn't like break a window or kick a door in. None of that. He would find a way to get in there more more quietly quietly so you wouldn't know he was in there, which is scary as shit. Horrifying. That's terrifying. That's a man that's done this a lot. Exactly.

That's a man that also knows that people, neighbors check on their neighbor's cottages. So as long as everything looks fine from the outside, you can probably squat there for a few days. Never bother me. Never bother me. I guess maybe that's why he doesn't flush the toilet. I'm not sure. So his brother, at the same time this is all going on, his brother finds a bunch of weird shit. Yeah, Victor finds a bunch of weird shit at his house.

Okay. Photographs linking his brother to the Blackburns, number one. Photographs of their property. Photographs of him with them at their property. So he knows them. He knows of the property. He knows of the barn, photographs of him with them at their property. So he knows them. He knows of the property. He knows of the barn, all that kind of shit. He said that he found pictures in a briefcase at a house where he and his brother, it's his family house that David lives in there.

He said the briefcase also contained pornographic pictures. By the way, he would cut out pictures much like BTK would cut out his slick ad girls, he called them. He would cut out pictures from actual porn mags because he's not a fucking weirdo who's afraid to go buy a porn mag. He's a weirdo. He's a weirdo. He's less weird than BTK. Yeah. He doesn't have to make porn.

He buys it. Yeah. He's not too like, oh, I don't want anyone seeing me with this magazine. He's like, I smell like a goat. I don't care what people think I fucking buy. So he said, uh, porn, porn mags, sheets of paper with quote, what seemed to be listings of ships or submarines in his brother's handwriting and photographs of the octagonal barn as well. A bunch of them, like an obsessive amount of photographs of this fucking barn. Huh?

Weird. of them like an obsessive amount of photographs of this fucking barn huh weird um now among his possessions was also camera equipment that belonged to ian blackburn yeah and guns stolen from another farmhouse in caledon that he was hermiting in and he was house hermit again now he's known as the cabin killer and the house hermit yeah i like the house hermit better but um he's obsessed with second world war military hardware is what the homicide investigators tell the public. So this is what we're looking for. Helmets and shit? Everything.

He left handwritten lists of battleships, aircraft, and other Second World War ordnance in several of these places. This wasn't his master list. He was always doing this. He'd go somewhere and just write a list out of shit that he knows about these. It's not things that he wants. It's just things he knows. It's things he knows. We'll talk more about it.

They don't know if he's playing some kind of fantasy war game. You know what I mean? This is the equipment this side has. This is the equipment this side has. And then let it play out in his head like a game, like a fantasy game. He says the list, the detail list, which contained descriptions of German, Japanese, and U.S. military firepower of the 1930s and 40s, they're looking at it as a calling card at this point. They also have calculations down the side of at least one of the lists.

That's why they think maybe this is some kind of war game. Maybe that's points or this many people were killed in this attack on this and he's creating a battle uh he's not stupid they said either so that's one thing so he can keep shit like this in his head they said they didn't find a trace of the lists at the blackburn's farmhouse no but he wasn't there very long at the same time, too. So they said they thought maybe that they were just trying to figure out if he lured Ian there somehow or not. If he, like, met him in town

and said, oh, that farmhouse, I want to look at it again. I might want it. Can you come out for a minute? Because that's very possible. So the long lists of military shit included entries like, quote, and this is in parentheses, Jap Kawasaki Type 88-2 Light Bomber, 1929.

And then U.S. parentheses, Keystone LB-5A Bomber, 1927. Shit like that. That's what I mean. I'd give you a list, but it's all stuff like that it's it's official you know the terminology and numbers the real yeah yeah what the code names and everything and what the exact model names of ships bombers submarines planes of all the forces for the 30s and 40s so seems like he's doing a weird war game thing and they said maybe he does that on paper when he gets when he holes up in these cottages because he doesn't do anything else which is weird um now they get the authorities get a phone call on may 28th that links him to

these military lists which is allison shaw the lady who writes the book with her husband daris there that lady she didn't write the book with him, but she had a husband, Darius. They're divorced now, I think. So she believed that the handwriting belonged to him because she knows it because she's been in business with him before. She said it's very strange writing style, and she recognized it from being in business with him. She called police on May 28, 1992, after seeing a Toronto newspaper's account of the investigation of the Blackburn murders. And she heard

the killer was a military buff who kidnapped them and did the whole deal. And she heard about the other couple that he drove to the intersection and all that shit. She said that it was an accompanying illustration showing a sample of the handwritten military list that led her to tell police that Snow must be involved somehow.

She said that she's an artist and she was interested in calligraphy and had become familiar with Snow's unusual handprinting from financial entries made when he and her husband operated the Phoenix Restorations business that would raise old frame houses and reassemble them on new sites. That's what they did. Yeah, exactly. There you go. So Phoenix. She said that she was also struck by the similarity in content between the newspaper illustrations and entries in a journal that she had found among items that Snow had stored in a Quonset-style warehouse in Orangeville. Fascinating. He had journals full of this shit.

Fascinating. So this was something he did all the time. It was like his obsession. She said that she had come across the journal about six weeks after he vanished in the fall of 91, leaving behind unpaid rent and shit like that. At the time, they were preparing to vacate this warehouse. That's why they took the stuff out. She described the journal entries as war

related weaponry battleships planes accompanied by a lot a lot of numbers yeah just like they all they found too do you think he's got into this business and hoping that he would get uh military shit i don't know i don't know if it's just i don't know i don't know he's just obsessed with old things weird things that are already built. Yeah. You know, clothes that you're already wearing, dirt that's already on you. Yeah. Like, he just. Fascinated by just everything that's already existing.

Yeah. Yeah. And it has been existing. Is it a fear of missing out that he didn't have a part of it? I don't know. I don't know. I'm a psychologist. You want me to break this guy psychologically down?

Yes. Because I seem like. Let's start with wrapping your poop. Because I feel like that's the first thing you're going to analyze and go from there because i'm not a psychiatrist but wow there's a lot going on here interesting character i would to say the least uh so they said she said uh as for the authorship of it i recognized it immediately it appeared to be david's um she said i knew i had seen it before it looked like what i had seen in this book in the kwanzit hut and i knew it was dav David when she saw it from the –

It's got to be nice writing, huh? It's very – no, it's not. It's just very distinct looking. You could tell like nobody – he draws his letters and shit a very weird way. So they – she said her call to the police was returned by a constable, and they said, quote, she said, I told him I could identify the author of the list as David Snow. And then she gave more statements to the police based on his weirdness. And later on, she said that that she talked to the police and she thought that her and her husband were scared that David was going to come and kill them. Yeah, because now she called the cops and that was in the paper and he's out on the loose and he killed some couple. So they're scared. He's familiar with us. Yeah. Yeah. Because now she called the cops and that was in the paper and he's out on the loose and he killed some couple.

So they're scared. And he's familiar with us. Yeah. Yeah. She said that the cops said, I wanted you to let you know as soon as possible that they didn't know where he was. And to ask you if you feel like you need some protection. So she said, or her husband said, yeah, we definitely need some protection. This is fucking ridiculous.

So the cops said, we'll have somebody from the North Vancouver RCMP call us right away. She said, they got a call, but they said the guy on the line wasn't real concerned about the whole thing. And she said that they said to her, there's simply not enough manpower to have somebody sent out to protect you. We have 50 RCMP out right now on a massive manhunt. The best we can do is have the new Westminster police patrol your street every now and again.

And if you run into trouble, you can go ahead and call 911. Oh, boy. Which I think that the Blackburns probably would have called 911 if they weren't jumped when they walked in the door. That's the problem is this guy is not really – he doesn't play fair. No. He slags the cards against you. Yeah. he doesn't he doesn't play fair no you know the cards against you yeah so they said i she said i remembered uh she was talking to you know people about uh back in the day when this all first

started with david before he's really like wanted now she was talking to her husband about what if he shows up and knocked on the door what would you do and him and his friend were like well we treat him like a friend he's a friend who needs help. Why would we wouldn't, you know, abandon him now? So Canadian. Yeah, that's both. That's so Canadian. So Canadian. Yeah.

We'll make him a meal and get him some help. We'll see if he needs some help. They said they weren't about to abandon him despite all he's done. They said, quote, a guy didn't just do that to another guy. That was the thing. You don't just abandon someone. In this country, we go, I don't know. The cops are after you.

You're on your own. Don't call me, motherfucker. What the fuck are you calling me for? Hello? Prank caller. Prank caller. I don't know who this is. He said, obviously, he's crying out for help, and he deserves to be heard.

And she said she told him, you guys are insane and stupid. There's bodies, you guys. She said, he's killed people. What are you going to do when you open the door and he's standing there? Offer him a beer? And they said, yeah. That's what we do. He's not going to kill us. And she said, well, what about when he pulls a gun?

You're going to say to him, fucking now, put that away. Let's talk. And she said, that's exactly what we do. So what are you pointing a gun at us for? Darius had said, I'm not afraid of him. He wouldn't do anything to me. He said, I was probably the only friend he'd ever had and um she he also said to the wife pretty we know how he feels about you right so you know i'm sure he might tie me up and rape you and kill you but outside of that so far the men have been uh not raped and murdered not right one murder but

yeah so um yeah they think they didn't think he would be a threat and then later on they were like maybe he would be a threat they changed their mind yeah so uh now the police are going to search david's home here they get a warrant to search his home they were able to get fingerprints of him and compare him to all the house hermit cases to tie all that together because anywhere where there's newspaper and shit they're gonna he's anything there no need for a fingerprint that's as good as that's that is a fingerprint that's that's a dna sample a fingerprint uh a facial scan it's all of it in one he got his asshole print how many people in canada wrap their news wrap their shit in newspapers let's be realistic how many is it there's probably a few more uh the bottle their piss, but I'm sure they don't wrap it.

They're not wrappers. No. No, not wrappers. And if they do, they throw it in the garbage. They don't just leave it around the house, put it in their pocket for later. A couple of nuggets in a newspaper, that's a big deal. What is this? What, did somebody move here and put some Hummel figurines in here?

Oh, God. Jesus Christ. Oh, dear Lord. Oh, it was hard. It's a grumpy figurine. It's better than being soft i guess this is not good it's ugly so uh he matches all the hermit house hermit cases obviously so police storm his house they're investigating all this shit uh they find you know trying to find him especially but when they go to his house they find what they call an unusual collection of pornography now those words together when the police find an unusual

collection of pornography that is not the statement you want newspapers to make about you yeah but also i want specifics why is it so what's so unusual right yeah exactly is it so? What's so unusual? Right. Yeah. Exactly. Is it the type of or the amount of? How big was it? Like, I want to know. No, unusual collection, I think, is strange things. I mean, an unusually sized collection would be different.

But by the 90s, there really wasn't an unusual size. I know people who had closets full of that shit. They were fine. But in the 90s also, there wasn't really much unusual porn there was it was mostly you just had to know where to find it yeah there's i've i've read tons of shit where like uh fucking uh hunter thompson was talking about like in weird shops and places you find these crazy magazines oh there's always been like shit magazines, piss magazines, weird underground European pedophile magazines.

Like if you know where you're looking and if your dick is hard enough, it will point you in the direction of these weird publications like a compass. That's what it is. Use your cock compass and go where you're going, mister. So they also found, the reason why this unusual,

the pornography was considered unusual, number one, the aberrantness of it. But number two, a lot of it was made on his own. He would cut out pictures, porno shit from magazines and paste them into albums. Making him do other shit? No, no, no, no no under specific categories of female body parts okay so like here's my tit album and my and my my ass album and my butthole album and my pussy album i got them all that's what he's got a fat clitty album he's broken he's broken him down into body parts in a magazine he's's the original Pornhub.

Yeah, he's got categories. But here's just tit pictures and here's just asshole pictures. He would be very happy with what's happened to porn now. It's very categorized. Very, very much categorized. So they found boxes of books related to the subject of 1920s 30s 40s military equipment so he's got that's how he knows all these names and all the model numbers and everything he's got books he's he's and he's memorized them all so when the police get to his attic

as you know it's going to be normal up there oh boy if the main floor is weird they realized oh this is where he spent his time yeah this is the shit that he keeps in in public view let's go see what he hides well the rest of the house too wasn't like didn't look real lived in lived it was messy but it wasn't like oh this is where he sits on the couch upstairs is where he hangs out jesus and they said in a collection of photographs a picture of the barn located on the Blackburn property was found. And that was like, oh, there we go. Here's some more proof. So June of 1992 is when it's announced Canada wide warrant. We want him. Anybody fucking sees him. Give us a ring here. He's described as a moody loner and a military buff oh just the guy you want to approach so uh a moody loner uh they called him a transient facing more than 30 charges that range from attempted murder to sexual assault and causing bodily harm because we'll talk about what he does

now so ontario police officers fly to vancouver to see if he's there i mean they're everyone's looking all over the place here. He's wanted on kidnapping charges in the kidnapping of the elderly couple, the sexual assault of Nancy Blackburn. The only charges they don't have on him right now is Carolyn Case. They haven't charged him with shit on that. They say this is the largest manhunt in North Vancouver history at the time taking place. And they say he keeps eluding these Royal Mounted Police officers. Yeah, because he's doing back roads.

He doesn't have cars. No, and the other thing, too, he doesn't need shelter. He'll just sleep in a ditch. He doesn't care. Dirt isn't a thing for him. He shits in a newspaper. He doesn't have those. Dignity.

Yes. That's how you find people, though, because they try to have pieces of dignity, and that's how you can find them. They leave a dignity trail behind them. Disregard that. He just leaves poop and newspaper trail. It's a different trail. Entirely different trail. So they're searching with search dogs, infrared scanners, helicopters, everything.

Couldn't find him. Combing the fucking woods. Can't find him. But they say, how is he getting away with this? They find war lists more war lists places of equipment um they're like what the fuck he lived uh his attic by the way his house that he lived in um is uh was near the carolyn case abduction scene okay and then she is buried or her bones were found right by the Blackburn farm. Yeah. So he had a thing when he was doing that.

It's all so close. It's all walkable. It's all, well, no, that's an hour away. But he can go get her, force her to drive out to that cottage. Yeah. And kill her out there because he knows about out there. Sure. Because he's been stalking that octagonal barn forever.

So they said that they found him in both B.C. and Ontario, hand-printed military lists. More of them they find, calling cards here. And Victor Snow also said all the handwriting matches his brother, the list that he found in the briefcase. It's all the same. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later,

what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. So the reactions by his people that know him are surprise, actually, shockingly enough.

Cheryl Overland, who worked in a store across the street from the antique shop that he owned said this is a complete shock there's complete shock here she said uh this is not the david uh this is not the david snow that we knew she does say quote one thing that the newspapers did get right though was that he smelled it was very bad this is a a pro david snow guy he did stink that is correct but everything else is bullshit i don't believe a word of it he smelled horrible except wow yeah he smelled like a farm animal bob smith who owns a cab company in that town uh remembered him as a quiet loner he said i don't think he had any friends oh oh let's not feel too

bad maybe because he has a pocket full of poop wrapped in newspaper he had a couple friends and he killed them he killed them or he's got the one guy he owed him money yeah so another guy here is his cousin alan cousin alan's 24 and he doesn't believe any of this he said this is ridiculous i didn't know him that well obviously this is the this is ridiculous. I didn't know him that well, obviously, is the other thing. He goes, I didn't know him that well, but from what I knew, quote, he was the type of guy who wouldn't hurt a fly. Okay. Not a fly. He said, like the rest of the family, he's struggling to understand what happened. He said, quote, he wasn't a big socializer.

No? Not surprising. Kept to himself. You smell like a ghost. Yeah, shit to hide. Literally, shit to hide in newspapers. June 29th, 1992. Yeah.

All right, still on the run. Yeah. A 26-year-old woman is working alone in a clothing store. Okay. She manages, it's in an area of Vancouver. She notices a particular male customer walking in and out of the store, claiming to be looking for a gift for a family member. She said she could tell when the man entered the store because he, quote, had a foul smell.

So you can tell when he came in because his smell, like, boom, fills the store. The bell wasn't as much an alert as the smell. His smell is audible. Yeah. You can smell him. You can hear his smell. You smell so bad, I hear it. So the store closed a few minutes after the man had walked out.

But the moment she locked the door, he came back to the store saying, oh, please let me in. I remember now I know what I need to buy. I figured it out. So I just came back to get it now. And he locked the door. Locked it right in my face. So she did. She let him in. Once she let him in once she let him in

it's david forsythe david snow obviously here he forces his way in there and pulls a gun on her okay so he forces her into the back room yeah at gunpoint orders her to take her clothes off and when he did he starts sexually assaulting her and ends up trying trying to rape her and ends up does raping this poor woman so at some point though he heard a noise coming from the front of the store in the middle of this so he got up to go look and investigate when he does this this woman fucking jumps up and jets out the back door. She's handcuffed and naked in broad daylight, screaming for help, running in the middle of a fucking, in a busy area.

Yeah. Like right in the middle of a bunch of stores and people, she's handcuffed and naked, screaming bloody murder. So obviously she gets attention. Yeah. Clearly, and thank fuck for it. So police quickly respond to the call, and they interview her.

She gives a clear description. Looks like this. Smells like a goat. And they do not put this together with David Snow because they don't think he's in Vancouver. Okay. They think he's in Toronto. They don't know he came here. In northern Canadian history.

Sexually assaults me. Smells like a goat. And they go, no, it must be an isolated incident. Must be another guy. So they don't link the two together at all. So they just go, well, we're looking for one crazy guy. Oh, boy. So that was June 29th.

July 3rd, 1992. Lenore Rattray here. She's 21 years old. She works at Suter's Photo Studio in Vancouver at 3618 East Hastings Street, and she disappears. Gone. Disappears from the photo shop. She was in the shop. Now she's not.

Okay. Gone. So the police, they think it's her boyfriend. Really? Article from the paper says police are tracking down a former boyfriend of the missing woman. We are checking into him, and someone is going to talk to him the police say she disappeared after leaving the studio here they said just days earlier she spotted a former boyfriend outside the studio and was terrified a fellow employee says so family members say she had dated this young man in calgary like three years ago but dumped him

and a cousin of hers said that the ex-boyfriend had been phoning her and bothering her the whole time. This man, that man moved from Vancouver to Vancouver from Calgary about two weeks before Retre came to Vancouver from Calgary. So he came first and then she moved there. And this was in May. Now, Retre's mother, she said she believes Lenore is alive somewhere. She's hoping, obviously. Lenore's best friend, a woman named Dawn Smith, said she's praying for her friend.

She said there was nothing to make her do this on her own, like disappear. She said she talked to Retre. She talked to her two weeks before she disappeared. And Retre had told her that she liked her new job and her new home in Vancouver. She was meeting people. It was fun. They have a serial predator on their hands, and they are so polite. Oh, wait till you hear how bad this gets. Oh, my God.

Her friend said, it's awful. I just hope she's okay. Police determined that the ex-boyfriend is in Kelowna, and they were looking for him. They said, we have nothing to point to anyone right now, but any leads we have are speculative, and we're going to look into everything. They noted the ex-boyfriend may not even have been in Vancouver. They don't know. Don't blame him completely. Even in the paper, though, they're like, listen, hey, let's give him the benefit of the doubt for now until we get some DNA or something good going.

He said Rattray was wearing a red top and a red tight-fitting pants when she disappeared. So she had recently dyed her hair blonde. Blonde and red. Smoking. Yeah, blonde and red. Now, what actually happened to her? What happened? Well, David came in, posed as a customer seeking a family portrait.

Because you really want to immortalize what he looks like in time. You want to really get that on print. Put this face in glossy form. We beg of you. You know what? He's going to put glamour shot shit. Give it like a slap some Vaseline on the lens. Let's do this right.

Yeah. So he abducted her at gunpoint as she was closing the store at 6 p.m. That's this seems to be his style. He waits till closing and that's the easiest time to do it because people just want to get out of there. So the she made no effort to fight or flee after, you know, resisting on that. She resists first and then doesn't. She later on will find out that he punched her she says so hard

in the face I literally saw stars that's how he got her attention he had her at gunpoint and he goes he said I'll shoot you know I'll keep hitting you so then she didn't struggle anymore he took her out of the store and down a busy street in broad daylight at gunpoint they said thousands

it was rush hour. Thousands of people watched it right in plain sight. No one knew what the fuck was going on. Who knows what people are doing. In rush hour traffic, they headed across the Second Narrows Bridge toward North Vancouver, and

they said, yeah, it must have been thousands of people there too. After crossing the bridge, he leads her another eight kilometers into a wooded area where he had set up a small camp. Ew. Oh, my God. He's going to make her his woodland bride. This is fucking disgusting. Oh, Jesus.

Gross. This is what I imagine in my nightmares like a bear would do if it kidnapped you. It would take you and like make you take it to its death yeah live with their live with it so he is in densely wooded area at night and you know it's in july so he brandishes three handguns yeah a silver one a black nine millimeter and a smaller black firearm in front of her and um he called her his quote outstanding catch that's what he called her you're an outstanding catch that i have now he said i want and he said i want to show you uh he said the guns he said i want to show you this he said do you want me to show you what i can do to you with them so she said no um he keeps her for eight days what in the woods half a block from a safeway store

there's people happily buying frozen pizza while this is going on at the westview shopping center in the busy near the busy trans canada highway it says here kept her and basically just did every disgusting sexual thing to her for eight days oh my kept her as a horrible okay um her first weekend of and in captivity he would he hog tied her and he would lift her uh up and she said about an inch perhaps off the ground and drop her just to show her that he could hurt her like that. Pick her up and drop her. And she later say that he forced her to perform sexual acts three or four times a day and spanked her one day as well. But only punched her the first night. Never punched her after that.

After that it was just all sex. So he's got her for eight days there. Yeah. Okay. So that's july 3rd july 11th while he still got her oh god he goes to go get somebody else oh my that's not he's tired of this one now what has happened he's lost it all now you think he's collecting young women now july 11 the woods yeah this is disgusting. July 11th, 1992. Monica Fast, 19 years old. She's working alongside her boss, who's a guy.

So there's two people. One of them is a guy. It's not even like, oh, there's a lone girl in there. Even if you're with somebody, he doesn't give a fuck. Now, this is how bold he's getting. They work in a video rental store, which existed in 1992 and in North Vancouver. A disheveled man walks into the store with a gun. You know who that is, obviously.

He robs the store, ties up the manager, and then says, no, no, no, I'm not tying you up. You're coming with me. Takes her with him. Takes her hostage, forces her into her own VW Beetle, and forces her to drive all the way to the campsite where the other one is. Oh, God. So where Retre is.

So imagine pulling up there terrified. This is every, I would assume, every 19-year-old girl's nightmare is to be kidnapped by a stinky, disheveled, fucking horrible man at gunpoint and driven to the woods to become his fucking, you know, his forest bride. Where you pull up and you see exactly what's about to happen. fucking, you know, his forest bride. Where you pull up and you see exactly what's about to happen. And then you see him. Yeah. You see someone who's been there for eight days and, oh, my God, this is a nightmare.

This is like one of those, you know, this is like Ariel Castro in the basement, except he doesn't have a basement. And he's got to feed these people and keep them alive. I hope he's feeding them, you know, or at least giving them water. But this is fucking disgusting. So he takes her out there. And at that point, he decides, I'm going to move you guys to a different location. Got to move you guys. OK, this is too too close here.

So the police, obviously, because he he didn't shoot the video store guy. So the video store guy, when someone comes in and run a fucking movie, which they do, he says, she's kidnapped. And there's this guy. So they're like, oh, wow, that sounds real familiar. So they go out immediately. All the people they can go on a lookout for her car. On the back road near the base of Mount Seymour, two cops spot her VW Beetle. Okay.

They searched the car and the bushes around it. Couldn't find anything leading to shit. Okay. Scents go dark, go out from the, you know, from the dog, everything,

nothing. So suddenly while they're searching and going shrug and going, fuck, Oh my God, he could, they could be anywhere. Two policemen here screaming a woman screaming, coming from the dense woods somewhere deep in the woods and they

went and looked at it right so they run after that they run toward the screaming obviously and they see monica fast recently abducted from the video store she's fully clothed and tied to a tree oh boy tied to a tree oh boy when one of the officers began untying the girl, they hear another scream from nearby. And they go, what the fuck? They're like, are you kidding? Holy shit. How many are there? What's happening?

So they run over. They hear that. They get to Lenore or Trey, who has been kidnapped for nine days. She's also fully clothed and tied to a tree. He puts her clothes back on him when he's done raping him. It's disgusting. I don't know why. I guess it's not as bad as leaving them naked.

But it's just the whole thing's weird. I don't understand why anybody that would make anybody happy. I just don't get it. Any extra quirk that happens. It's just gross. It's too much. It's too much. Yeah, it adds a little extra.

It fries my circuits a little bit. So no one else is around to be seen okay just the two so um the the photo studio lenore retray who's been there for nine days is unresponsive she is a catatonic like fucking cameron and ferris bueller like in a coma yeah they're asking her questions and she's blank expression just staring at them not speaking so he is traumatized this imagine the trauma she's been through for nine days she's a shattered woman he's probably begged for death a million times this poor woman they were taken to the hospital at the same time the women obviously they didn't say you got to wait for her to be done

massive manhunt even more now they gather evidence from searching the car and also they get evidence from the two women and they figure out it's David. This is all fucking David Snow. All of this shit. Right. So they're like, this is crazy. Got to be him. He fled from this Mount Seymour Park where they freed these women.

There's an 18 hour manhunt then through the dense trees of the North Shore Mountains. They figure he's got to be in here somewhere. Yeah. He doesn't drive. 40 officers use infrared screening devices, helicopters, police dogs, whole area. And he's beating it all. They can't find him. Wow. Can't find him.

Now, Lenore's grandmother, Edna, of course her name's Edna because it's a grandma name, she said her prayers were answered when the police found her granddaughter. It's all she wanted. She said her prayers were answered when the police found her granddaughter. It's all she wanted. She said, I prayed and I hope they would find her. You wake up during the night.

I don't know how many times. And it's right on your mind. You can't get it off your mind. That's incredible. How often is that when. It's never a thing. It's. They're found dead.

Yeah. They're not found alive. Nine days later. After nine days, she's fucking dead. You know, I mean, it's rare. That the ariel castro thing was such a big deal because he was like oh my god he kept these women that's that is crazy years and years july 12th 1992 uh-huh this is that that was the 11th right now the 12th at 3 20 a.m so it's just the 12th all right he has escaped the woods yeah and there's a woman 53 year old dahlia jelena jelena uh it's a frenchish name at this point so it's hard to pronounce but dahlia

uh she works at a restaurant okay she's closing up shop at about 3 20 3 30 a.m by the way she's a lithuanian refugee who spent four years in Auschwitz. Oh, God. She spent four years in fucking Auschwitz. Not just a concentration. Fucking Auschwitz. The concentration camp. I mean, so this lady has had about the worst luck anybody could ever have as a child. Yeah.

Well, I guess she escaped, but still. Four fucking years in Auschwitz is insane. And as a child, those were the first ones that they, that they did things to. This is, this is her memories of my early memories are of Auschwitz and nothing else. That's bonkers. Holy shit.

Cause she's 53 and yeah, she was probably six when she was taken there or something. So, wow. Um, snow comes in with his gun, um, and, uh, forces her to the ground behind the restaurant counter as she closed up.

He beats her up, this poor lady. Okay. He forces her to the back of the empty restaurant, which triggers a silent alarm. Oh, thank God. Which causes the alarm company to call. He, gun to her head head has her explained to the alarm company oh that's just me everything's fine i went in the back oh no you know blah blah blah but the alarm company didn't believe her good they thought her voice sounded a little bit off

so they called the police just to make sure because it can't hurt what's your simply safe that's it's that this is good that's if she had simply safe it would have been way better even but um so um she said that she told she's telling him the whole time by the way there's nothing i don't have anything she said i'm just a grandmother i don't have anything i work in a fucking restaurant jesus christ she's pleading with him he tells her quote i'm gonna fuck you to death oh my that's what he tells her that's what he tells this poor woman who survived Hitler and Mengele and everything else. Fucking horrible. You can imagine.

That's that's what he tells. Wow. Holy shit. He then he then stomped her on the stomach as she laid on the ground. And she said, like, hell, you are. And she said, this is where my World War Three started. One thing she's, I mean,

that's one thing she's got spirit. If she survived Auschwitz, um, she said, uh, uh, by magic, I felt my skirt come up and over my head.

And I was naked. I was fighting like crazy. I was fighting here like crazy. And he's trying to tear my t-shirt at this point. So he then punches her repeatedly as he rips all of her clothing off and binds her wrist behind her back. He hog ties her. Okay. He then takes her slip she was wearing and stuffs it in her throat, gagging her.

Then he covers her head with a plastic bag. then he covers her head with a plastic bag she said i was already having difficulty breathing and then i felt something extremely sharp cutting into my neck that's because he covered her up with a plastic bag and then wrapped a fucking wire around her neck that holds pots and pans together one of those wires fucking did that and he's strangling her like a fucking mafia hit man while he has a plastic bag overhead and he's trying to rape her okay what the shit and he's and he's choking her at the same time that he's doing how is that hot that's what i mean what are you doing what is that i don't know nothing in this guy's mental thing makes any sense to me whatsoever to sex that's what how does that get that's what it is so nuts how does that thought make you go? Yeah.

What the fuck is wrong with you? So it is at this point that she is nearly dead when the police burst in from the alarm. From the alarm. Yeah. He tried to flee, but the police had surrounded the building and when he busted out the door, they fucking got him right there. Yeah. They had him.

He's apprehended at the scene, which he busted out the door they fucking got him right there. They had him. He's apprehended at the scene, which is the most incredible rescue of all fucking time. Dahlia unfortunately spends five days in the hospital, but does physically recover from this act. The torture of humanity of this poor

woman. Of all of it. Everything is to the inch the last fucking... To the last edge inch the last house on your head neck thing around your neck like how many times can you survive death survive this holy shit if i was her i'd start doing evil knievel shit like i'm gonna jump the snake canyon motherfucker what's the matter i'll fucking survive it you can't kill me you can't kill me why i am rock solid um she said she survived the horrors of auschwitz but expected to die here i believe she said this was when she said she thought she was going to die later on after all this she'll say my life is a disaster

my life will never ever be the same again i will remember it to my dying day she said not since she was a child has she had such torment uh in auschwitz she spent she spent nearly four years there uh before being liberated finally by the american army or the russian army i'm not sure which one got there first exactly um she was with her mother and older brother there she said quite quote it was quite a holiday camp which i love the sense of humor of someone who's in auschwitz and goes it's quite the holiday camp, which I love the sense of humor of someone who's in Auschwitz and goes, it's quite the holiday camp. That's a fucking cool person I'd like to talk to. You know, that's a dark sense of humor.

She said, that is why this moron Canadian from Ontario chose the wrong person. This moron Canadian from Ontario. She said the SS, which we all know that is the SS were really cruel and human beings they were utterly inhuman he meaning David Snow probably would have done very well with the SS she says she called him yeah that's a great insult

you would have done well with the SS you piece of shit but he's fascinated with that shit too so what is oh boy who knows for him it might have been a world war world war ii daily double like fucking january and auschwitz tell me about that jesus she said as much as he was hitting and thumping me he was telling me not to fight back because he didn't intend to hurt me while i was being choked to death and strangled he was trying to break my neck

wow so charges yeah he's gonna have some charges a few he faces one count of attempted murder five and strangled. He was trying to break my neck. Wow. So, charges. Yeah. He's going to have some charges. A few. He faces one count of attempted murder, five of unlawful confinement, three of kidnapping, five armed robbery, five sexual assault,

including three involving a weapon, and one causing bodily harm, two counts of overcoming resistance to the commission of an offense, and nine weapons counts. Okay. They're decided they're going to wait a second to charge him with the Blackburn murder because they have

him on all this. They caught him red-handed. So they can wait a minute and put that case together. So in the ordeal, Latre, Latre, the one who he kept for eight to nine days, said, quote, this is what you'll tell the press in the court, quote, I was like

a toy to him. It was like he was watching some pornographic movie and I was sexually assaulted every day. She said he didn't see me as a human being. He would do what he pleased to me. Gross. That is disgusting. The other Monica Fast described him as, quote, a sick, perverted, overgrown kid who exploited her as a hogtied object for his sexual gratification. He raped both of them.

Oh, yeah. Repeatedly. Repeatedly. Now, the murder charges, they said, quote, there's no real need for us to push something quickly here. We have time on the murder charges. He is going to plead to some shit because they caught him red-handed. There's really no. I mean, they literally caught him strangling and raping a

hogtied woman in the middle of it with a gun in his hand like you can't get any more red handed than that we never hear about that someone rescued in that fashion at the edge of it all oh literally a minute later she's dead she's fucking dead that's incredible that's incredible fucking wow it's for we

never get a happy like that like yay that person didn't get murdered. If we like somebody, they're always murdered in this show. So it's nice to have this happen. Not nice, but nice she's alive. He pleads to charges of sexual assault, unlawful confinement, attempted strangulation, and robbery here after this is on the two women attack here. Guilty to 10 counts altogether. In this trial, though, Canada has something

called a dangerous offender statute. What's that? Which is, I'll read it to you, when an offender is convicted of a serious personal injury or sexual offense and poses a continuing danger to the public, Crown counsel may be able to apply to the sentencing court to have the person designated as

a dangerous offender or long-term offender, which is a different category. The overriding aim of these two is the protection of the public and to prevent future violence. They said, here is one legal test for dangerous offender. Okay. Court can find an offender to be a dangerous offender when they stand convicted of a serious personal injury offense and the offender constitutes a threat to the life,

safety and or physical and mental well-being of others on evidence, establishing a pattern of repetitive behavior that shows a failure to restrain their behavior, which is likely to cause physical or severe psychological harm to others. Okay. I think he kind of, he definitely falls in that a pattern of persistent, aggressive behavior that shows a substantial degree of indifference to the consequences.

That's our guy. Wow. Yeah, that fits him like a glove. The brutal nature of the offense compels the conclusion that the offender is unlikely or inhibited by normal standards of behavioral, unlikely to be inhibited by normal standards of behavioral restraint. Yeah. I think that's perfect for him. behavioral unlikely to be inhibited by normal standards of behavioral restraint. Yeah. I think that's perfect for him. And,

uh, that the offender has shown a failure to control their sexual impulses that are likely to harm others. Yeah. Yeah. A dangerous offender may be subjected to an indeterminate prison sentence. Like we're going to hold you till we think you're not dangerous. That's how fucked up you are. If it is forever,

it is forever. Like Manson pretty much. That's what they did. Like he gets parole every year, but they're like, it's how fucked up you are if it is forever it is forever like manson pretty much that's what they did like he gets parole every year but they're like it's indeterminate we're come on little guy they pat him on the head and they send him on his way you know that's what they did uh they said whether or not the whether or not the crime carries a life sentence doesn't matter they can hold him forever this does not apply to convictions of first degree murder second degree murder high tre and treason. Those have their own life sentences. So, okay. Now, the Shaw's, Allison and Darius there, they were living in Vancouver when he was

captured. They had moved all the way over there. Allison testifies for the Crown at his dangerous offender hearing, saying that he's dangerous. She conveyed his menace with a clarity that can only come from firsthand experience, the newspaper said. Understanding him is another matter. They said in the end, she falls back on excerpting the reports of court-appointed doctors who interviewed him for the book later on. In court, while he is being determined whether he's a dangerous offender who's going to be in jail for an indeterminate amount of time, he is shoeless. He didn't wear fucking shoes.

How does the judge allow that? You go, no. To make this fair, we got to put you in shoes. We have to make you look like a civilized human being so this fucking jury can make a fair distinction of what a piece of shit you are and send you away forever. Up your toes. Fuck you. And they said rumpled prison clothes and he just looks straight ahead the whole time.

Looking like a psychopath who needs to be in prison forever. Yeah. His brother testified against him. He urged, he said he urged his brother to make an appointment with the family doctor to get a psychiatric referral and Victor said, quote, he simply denied he needed help so he just sat in this attic and beat off to this weird shit and i went out and did it i can take it no more yep i need it for real for real exactly wow

they said they interviewed his brother by phone at first when all this went down to begin with and victor corrected some points in the, including the suggestion his brother might have been connected with the death years ago of an elderly woman whose antique clock had been acquired about that time. He said he had no evidence to back a comment to his wife that maybe David had killed the woman, because he had said that to his wife at some point. Maybe, fuck it, who knows. But he said, I didn't have any evidence.

That was just anecdotal because he's a weirdo. He also admitted to the defense lawyer that he never saw David read a pornographic pornographic magazine or look at a dirty video, despite finding dozens among his personal belongings after, you know, because he's not reading. Yeah. He's not whacking off in front of his brother either. That's the other thing. Right. I know plenty of perverts are not looking at porn in front of me or in public places. You know? That's weird. We read that alone. That's for you alone.

He is deemed a dangerous offender as well. So he's going to be held for an indeterminate amount of time. He's so dangerous. He had two women tied up in the woods and he went and got more. Oh, he was going to get more. He was going to take this one, too.

Who knows how big his collection could have gotten. There would have been a line of fucking cars out there. It would have looked like the Copacabana in 1961 outside. Fucking valet out there. So November 5, 1992, they're still looking for Carolyn Case. They're still trying to determine whether those remains are hers or not, which is wild. The trial for Dahlia Jelenu, the Lithuanian survivor there, she says at the trial, Then I was gone. I lost consciousness.

And then it was very, very, very calm and very bright, and I was feeling something warm. She said, I thought I was in heaven. Yeah. She said she spent five days in the hospital. When she first saw herself in the mirror, she said, I saw a monster from another planet. My breastbone and rib cage had separated. I was in a great deal of pain.

And that's what she says. She said, quote, he ruined my life. He has told me the ultimate fear. He has told me how to hate, which I did not know existed before I feel murder in my heart and I would like someone to put him in a room with me tie him up the same way he tied me up and I don't want anybody to interfere fear while he screams for mercy for the rest of his life because I would give him none I would give him absolutely nothing she would give

no quarter she will break his breast that. He broke her fucking sternum. Yeah, that's how he beat the shit out of this poor woman. Jesus Christ. She said she had a nice apartment, nice job, nice friends, worked at a restaurant she loved. Now her life is fucked, basically, she said. She said, I'm afraid to be around many people. Every time I see a slender looking man with hair and glasses, I freak. I see snow everywhere.

Oh, God. said um she also has a chronic shake now yeah she said i fought physically for my life for over 20 minutes i really believed i was dead now i live in fear i cannot be without someone with me i have my lights on in my apartment all night long i don't eat i don't sleep my life is a disaster she says she doesn't know if she can return to work or if she'll ever be the same person again. She says, though, quote, I am strong. I will not let that monster get the better of me. Yeah.

She said, although they have she's yet to meet the other two victims that were tied up and found, which is crazy. She said she's exchanged messages through the police about with them. Wow. She said, I feel for them now their lives have only begun they uh they were not where i was long before i reached their age so i like yeah they're they've got to be grateful to her too because if oh yeah he's not caught he's coming back there to do more to them yeah eventually they're going to die out there how long was he going to just collect women jesus she said uh the next six weeks would be anguishing as she waits for this to be over with because that's take that and sentencing.

She said it's taking too long. I cannot put anything in order until I hear the sentence. Right now, he doesn't care, meaning snow. My taxpayer money is supporting him in food, warmth, and a soft bed. She says she has doubts about the future. She said apart from that i'm here alive and the sun is shining isn't that wonderful that's the attitude of a woman who survived auschwitz right you know like she can find a bright side yeah um she said that her life's on

hold and uh she said i'm if i know i'm unable to do anything with my life to put it back on track and she testified against him. And, um, she said, everything has been taken away from him, from me, her friend, uh, who set up a fund for her to help her cause she can't work now said,

here's a woman who used to be able to work, but now because of what's been done to her, she can't work for her to have financial pressures added to all the other horror she has is just not right. No shit. So the verdict comes in and this is kidnapping, sexual assault, attempted murder, all of that. What does Canada do? He is found guilty, obviously.

He was fought in the act of kidnapping and sexual assault. Not guilty of attempted murder. How? Not guilty of attempted murder, Jimmy. They walked in with a plastic bag. That's like double attempted murder certainly murder that's what you can have no conclusion to that wow sexual assault causing bodily harm sure unlawful confinement choking with intent to commit an indelictable attack

offense uh it is indictable i it's not no yes it Yes, it is. Sorry. It's from a newspaper, so it's hard to see. The misuse of a firearm, but said not guilty on attempted murder. The judge said, I cannot conclude that the placing of the wire around the neck of the victim and or the placing of the plastic bag over her head are sufficient to establish a specific intent to kill her. What else is there? What the fuck did he have to do? What did he have to do? What do you have to do to fucking... A plastic bag over your head with a wire securing it.

I don't know what to say to that. The only conclusion that you're coming to there is that this person will die. Yes. Now, she, Dahlia, says, I would like somebody to tell me, would there be any doubt he would be sentenced to he would be sentenced to murder had my body had been found the

next morning yeah we all know that snow did what he did I will know it until I die she said I wanted to be sick when I heard the verdict she said that son of a bitch was killing me I was dead barring 30 seconds yeah and the judge doesn't agree still a

suspect in the disappearance of carolyn case by the way they still haven't done that here comes the blackburn murder trial okay um he says before the trial releases a statement to the judge david does quote i have worked lived and worked in orangeville ontario all my life i'm not a mysterious character who suddenly appeared there i was in every way a normal human being until a short time ago. No, no, you weren't. He that's that you don't know that's normal, says something here. What's normal? He said, I have great remorse for the crimes and the pain I have caused. But I but I say no, I say so with no request for either forgiveness or leniency. I must live with

the knowledge of my crimes and no one else can understand the pain this causes me. Whatever the outcome of these proceedings, my future is one of the few things I'm already at peace with. He claimed he had no collection of pornography in Orangeville, as the court describes. He said the adult videos came into his possession as a part of goods he bought for resale from storage lockers

when people did not keep up their rent. So he was storage hunting. That's all it is. Storage war. Just storage war. Beats off to your old. That's it. That's the guy.

But a psychiatrist, Dr. Stanley Semra, Semra. He said it would be unheard of for a nice quote unquote person to commit the acts. No, did it would be incredibly remarkable for there not to be traits of personality disorders there has not been a recorded case of a person with no personality disorder or major mental illness being capable of committing these offenses it would be a psychiatric impossibility comparable to a man having a baby yeah so he said that he said in the absence of a personality disorder major mental illness or the onset of a brain tumor snow would be unique in the annals of psychiatry to carry out such a string

of offenses a person must have a serious pathological personality so um he just did this he doesn't have an ailment no he's just a fucking lunatic his brain's a mess shit's fucking he's mushy in the brain. See this? He's all fucked up in the head. Mushy up there and hard down there. Hard and mushy. That creates bad, dangerous shit.

That makes shit that he needs to wrap in newspaper. So the trial went on for weeks. The defense lawyer, which is interesting, got on the judge's nerves so much the judge would constantly yell at him. He would become exasperated. He would interrupt the cross-examinations. Really? Yes, which in front of the jury is rough with a defense attorney because you're making it like they're not as respectable as the prosecutor. That's bad for appeals purposes.

Remember Kevin DeSolinaires who hired him as a laborer back in the day um he talked about the gun and the ammo thing talked about how you know that didn't arrive he got all pissed off and everything like that during kevin's cross-examination by david's lawyer though um he conceded kevin does that he only recently told the police about the revolver he explained that the subject had not arisen in earlier interviews. Well, you didn't ask me. You should have asked me about a gun if you wanted to know about one. And he offered the information

on being asked whether there was anything else he could recall about his dealings with Mr. Snow, who he'd hired to work as a laborer. He also told the trial of having the Blackburn barn pointed out to him one day

as he drove Mr. Snow to that job they did, and he said that he last saw him in August of 91. And that was about a week after David just took off without notice. So Allison Shaw under cross examination, she agreed that her husband and the accused had been close friends and asked why she had not called the police when Mr. Snow disappeared. She replied, I really didn't think about him because he had not called the police when Mr. Snow disappeared. She replied, I really didn't think about him because he had done it before. Meaning disappear all the time. In the closings,

the defense warned the jury not to allow the evidence of the similar fact witnesses, you know, that he's kidnapped people and rapes them and kills them and stuff. Don't just say the same thing he does over and over. Yeah. They said, don't let that trigger a hatred of David Snow.

That is not the purpose of the evidence. It's not? It's not. The Vancouver witness's testimony was used to show that, obviously, all these details. Now, the prosecution, or no, the defense says, the only reasonable common sense explanation for the similarities between the accused's other acts and what happened to the Blackburns is that the accused also killed. Oh,

that's the prosecution. Yeah. Oh, that's what he's saying. He's saying, look, we don't want you to hate him because of this evidence. We want you to put it together that he's a murderer.

Then you can hate him because he's a murderer, which makes sense. Yeah. So the jury finds him guilty of two counts of first degree murder. I mean, pretty obvious there. Sentencing comes around um here and the verdict of guilty there means a life sentence you sir may fuck off life sentence with no chance of

parole for at least 25 years and the fact that he's still under dangerous offender status means that could trump that also yeah that could just go right over the head of that shit so total sentences apart from the two counts of first degree murder as other convictions include kidnapping sexual assault causing bodily harm sexual assault forcible confinement robbery weapons offenses so he is altogether life with the possibility of parole that's crazy that's crazy. That's crazy. 25 years. This guy, no. In 2000, in prison, he is taking the court-ordered long-term sex offender program, and he's caught with pornography during that. You're not allowed to have that in there. That's not great. That should start your life sentence over again, right?

Yeah, sorry. Back to one, everybody. Remember when you were a kid and you'd get stuck to the corner or something? You'd do something bad, and they'd be like, time starts over now. Yeah, this is, sorry. That's what it should be. Yeah, time's not, back to fucking zero. Yeah, your time out is coming.

Take two. 2004, he appeals his dangerous offender status. Moi? Dangerous? I'd like to appeal that. He claimed he didn't get a fair dangerous offender hearing because he refused to be interviewed by court-appointed psychiatrists. Well, that shows you're dangerous. Asshole.

They didn't interview me. You refused, right? Yeah. See, he says he only refused because he was afraid it would jeopardize a murder trial later on, which is actually a smart move to say. But the court of appeals says self-incrimination is one of the risks a

person runs in a psychiatric review. And if you wanted to, that's what you could have done so the judge there uh they also talk about his murder trial the judge quote marred a notorious murder trial by repeatedly chatting with jurors in the hallway and refusing to scrutinize his own conduct the ontario court of appeals said and yelled at the fucking defense attorney didn't do a very good job however it said that the conduct by the justice of the court was not so egregious as to warn overturning the verdict like he's still guilty as balls so you know he just sat out there gossiping

about how guilty he is like this guy's guilty as shit ain't he filthy too put some shoes on right you know what i mean uh disrespect in my courtroom the appeals judges also express concern about the extent to which the judge was drawn into exchanges of insults with the defense counsel sheldon goldberg goldberg had objected to the judge currying favor with the jury potentially causing them to side against mr snow he alleged that the judge tried to win the jury over with 10 or 15 chats that he stood outside the courtroom door several times, disparaging Mr. Goldberg and two court staff in a loud voice. They said this is one of the appeals judges. Many of the trial judges'

interventions and comments could hardly be described as models of judicial decorum. But they said that although he was entitled to control his court, he said that he had, quote, risen to the bait of shit. The judge added, however annoying or irritating counsel may become, the trial judge at all times should control proceedings with judicious demeanor. The two factors that saved the trial were first, the animosity between the judge and the defense attorney were obvious to the jury simply from their courtroom sparring.

So any disparaging references they heard in the hallways wouldn't have constituted something new. They knew that already. Those two don't like each other. In addition, the judge took the precaution of strongly warning the jurors to ignore any by-play between him and Mr. Goldberg. Hey, this happens in a court. It's legal. It's legal fucking swordplay. Don't worry about it. Yeah. The judge said it's fine for the judge said

of the appeals court said it's fine for judges to be friendly toward jurors and prop up their morale, providing they stop short of appearing biased. The said that Mr. Snow's appeal also focused on whether the judge ought to have permitted similar fact evidence from B.C. The kidnappings such as the propensity to hog tie his victims and leave cryptic handwritten notes at crime scenes. And the repeals court ejected both of those and said yes they should have been in there. That was proper. I took them just 24 hours to dismiss his appeal and say get fucking off dangerous asshole keep going the movie comes out oh boy the the friend of the family movie comes out here and um this is pretty interesting uh kim coates is in it really who is that uh she's in stuff she's uh she's in uh she's in black hawk down pearl harbor kim coates isn't she

the black girl from designing uh no no that's no who's that who's that kim are you thinking of is that kim tootie no no you're thinking of the tall one yeah kim um kim something right is it kim coates no i don't think it's kim coates is it google later yeah yeah google later because i'm thinking no because you're i've pictured something black hawk down she's in black hawk down pearl harbor those sound pretty white so that's why i'm saying probably not i don't know how many black women were in those movies but the uh she was born in saskatoon oh and said she can't wait to be in this movie they said they said that um she said that that's my selling point is because it was canadian she's from saskatoon and she said that uh then where's the quote oh here it is she said um a friend of the family is based on the book and uh she said it's very much canada and uh

they went on to say people watching television movies are always more interested in true stories the one person the actress said it's like, oh, patriotic. That's what it is. Said she's had roles in this and that and said, I'm very patriotic. It's a chance to reconnect, even if it's about a serial killer. Patriotic? I want to do a Canadian murderer story because I'm patriotic. That's the weirdest thing.

That's the only quote I was looking for in an old article. Woodsy rape and murder. What's more patriotic? Oh, more like oh canada we'll rape you in the woods tie you to a tree and hope the police bust on through i've heard nothing of hockey in this story nothing not a puck has been dropped nothing not a penalty minute has been doled out unreal january 2008 david is convicted again of attacking an inmate and threatened to kill him while in prison is that right physically attacked threatened to kill an inmate you're a little guy take it easy i don't give a fuck he's not taking any shit threatened to kill him with a hardened newspaper turd.

By the way. Filed down poop. Filed down poop. That's what I use. Filed down my poop. Poopsicle. That's right. It's a fucking poop shank.

So from what I can find, I can never find him charged with Carolyn Case's murder. Wow. Never charged with it. I don't know if they can't connect it physically or what the deal is. They never even identified that it's her. They might have. But in Canada, that might have been private. The family might have said, don't release that information.

And then they didn't charge him because he's who knows. Never getting out anyway. I guess. In 2013, a psychological risk assessment characterized Snow as high risk to violently and or sexually reoffend. He's all over the board, too. I think we would say, yeah. In a most recent assessment, though, a couple years later, they placed him in the low to low end of the moderate range. Of safety?

Of safety, of risk of raping people more and killing them. What are we talking about? In a 2015 sex offender assessment, he denied sadomasochism, which is enjoying violent sex, and having a preoccupation with pornography. You separated a woman's breastplate. While you tried to rape them. That's insane. Yeah, that's how quickly your sexual shit escalated. 2018, he had completed various anger management and sex offender programs while in prison. Most recently, the moderate intensity sex offender program. Moderate intensity sex offender. Do we have a higher one than that?

Because that's what I put him in. He did the medium level. He did medium, moderate. 2019, he's up for parole. It's been 25, babe. Been a quarter. Let's do this. parole it's been 25 babe been a quarter let's do this um while in prison he's made some progress in terms of how pornography and unhealthy fantasies were linked to his sexual and criminal

past it was stated uh stated his understanding though is still in the early stages he's also diagnosed with paraphilia sexual sadism and anti-social personality among other things since he's been in prison i would say yeah While he has completed anger management and sex offender programs, the parole board continued to urge him in his rehabilitation, and they said, you've made gains by coming to terms with your unhealthy relationship with pornography, but this insight is relatively new. Your understanding of your deviant sexual thoughts remains in its infancy. Do you have to say infancy with deviant sexual thoughts in the same two words away from it?

In February 7, 2019, the Correctional Service of Canada ruled that he would present an undue risk to society if released. He must demonstrate appropriate behavior before any transfer to a minimum security institution could even be considered. Asked by the parole board about being a sexual deviant he replied quote well i must be look what i did that's all that i can come with he indicated that though that he derived no sexual gratification in assaulting his victims it was just for control but that's got to be that's part of the gratification is the control yeah talking about unless part of it should be

how into it they are that's what if you don't have that there's something missing she's not enjoying something missing and that doesn't make you excited that's the one that's there it is you blew it so um his requests for day like daytime yeah you know you can i'll come in at night parole anything it's all denied can i get out at all staying in jail uh diagnosed with uh sexual deviancy several of them sexual sadism preoccupation with anal intercourse which he inflicted on all those women by the way that's ripping dignity away it's not enjoyment erectile dysfunction at this point which if only that would have happened to begin with, could have saved us all a lot of trouble. Antisocial personality and narcissistic personality disorder.

He said he didn't agree with these diagnoses. The board notes echoing his 2015 denials of sadomasochism, enjoying a violent sex and preoccupation with pornography. He seems to be serving out his correction, his sentence at the correctional facility in British Columbia. In 2021, the Parole Board of Canada denied day parole and full release parole for him again. They must review offenders with an indeterminate sentence every year. What? Because he's on that offender thing. Yeah.

year. What? Because he's on that offender thing. Yeah. So according to the documents, Snow didn't submit anything in writing to the board and waived his right to a hearing in the review. He just said, fuck it, you're not letting me out. He has been at his current institution since 2013. He did express that he'd like to be released to the community

residential facility, participate in volunteer activities, and potentially obtain part-time employment. He's still too young and too able. Fuck you. Fuck out of here. Yeah. No.

The parole report said the Corrections Canada has not supported his request based on his low reintegration potential. He's going to be a fucking disaster. What's going on with that octagonal barn? What happened? Real estate fucking buffs out there. Relatives of the Blackburn family recently sold the farm where the last remaining octagonal barn in Caledon is still standing.

Last one in the area. Not in Ontario, but in this area. There used to be a bunch, I guess. Now, also, there is a huge uproar in the 90s about Canada's skittishness to give details of anything sexual. They don't like to do it, which is I mean, you can see both sides of that argument. I don't really have a dog

in that fight. But the public wants them to release it. Oh, absolutely. There's all these letters to the newspaper talking about all this shit. It says that I don't believe our readers are ready for sickening details,

is what the editor said. And this person writing a letter to the newspaper said, that made me think about the role of newspapers and about how readers interact with the daily paper. If the newspaper's mandate is to reflect society as society wants to see itself, to report carefully and inoffensively, then I agree with leaving out the details of violent crimes. But if the Sun wants to challenge readers, educate them, and even to provoke readers into some kind of action, then it should tell us what really happens to victims of sexual assault. By reporting only what readers are, quote, ready for, the paper allows us to drift into complacency. Only when we read something that we are not ready for do we get

off the couch and respond by writing a letter to the editor and becoming active in stopping sexual assault or, and this is the price you pay, by canceling our subscriptions. I'm not advocating chasing ambulances or badgering victims so that the son can educate a readership inured to clinical terms like sexual assault, but if a woman or man is willing to tell us what sexual assault means to the human body and spirit i think the son is obligated to give that person a voice yeah that's fair and in canada you don't get the names of the victims unless they release them so like any like you'll notice a couple of them we had and a

couple of them we didn't have it's for a reason because a couple of them weren't in the newspapers and probably could have hunted them down but i'm not gonna fucking people don't want to release they don't want to release and that's basically what that guy's saying don't badger people into putting out information but if it's all there fucking say it though the one guy uh or the one the few that i told you about are because they were public yeah that's the only reason i put they were in the newspaper it's the only reason i put them in there otherwise wouldn't have done that. Yeah. Otherwise, if you want the elderly couple, we don't know who we are.

The one of the kidnapped women. We don't know her name. There's a couple of them. We don't know her name. So there's letters after letter after letter saying essentially the same thing. You need to do that. You need to add the fucking details here. You're not letting people know how bad it is.

Yeah. And you're not doing your job. Your job is to report if that's the words and information that's there. Yeah. But the fucking information in the article. Absolutely. Now, one of these women who was one of the unnamed women at the time, but she releases her name publicly here later on was Sandra Gossin. Later on was Sandra Gossin, and she was a 22 year old at the time, and she wrote a letter in response to all the articles published on people arguing that there should be more stuff. She said this is a plea from a human being with feelings to the reporters, editors and as many other employees at the Vancouver Sun who I feel who I feel need to stop and remember that you're dealing with issues that can adversely affect many lives.

I'm the woman. I'm the woman these articles refer to who was held by David Snow for nine days. I thought her name was, maybe that was later on. Maybe that was under an alias. I'm not sure. I could be wrong about that name then. I'm not positive then if that's what it is. I thought. I'm not sure.

Either she released it later or, because this was in 93, so maybe she went under an alias at this point and released it later. I'm not sure. But either way, if it's a name that I didn't be out there, I apologize. Or this person is claiming some wild shit. Yeah. Yeah. She said that I feel there are a few things that need to be said and cleared up on my behalf. Number one is that for when I read you earlier saying there should be more doesn't make it clear, in my opinion, that this is not me coming forward to inform the public of the horrors I experience. And this is actually an interpretation of my victim impact statement.

I believe the public should understand that it was not my decision that your newspaper should have a copy of the statement victim impact. The only reason the Vancouver Sun is a copy of this is that it was admitted in evidence in court. That's just how that works the only eyes i had intended to see this information were those of a judge beyond that i had to hope the media would realize there are as many sensitive situations involved in my case and the contents of the statement are not necessary for the public consumption evidently not she goes on this is one that there's two sides to this and it's you know even if you everyone has the same goal you can have a different opinion on how to accomplish it so there's no we're not going to argue about what's the right thing to do because that's well above our pay

grade and our intelligence level to be quite perfectly fucking honest with you so her now let's go to that book friend of the family the true story of david snow that she wrote in 98 it's seems to be out of print at this point and And it's, you know, it's like forty dollars everywhere because they don't have a lot of them. So here is a small review, quote, written in a dull style, further flattened by cliches. Allison Shaw's no good husband alongside the daily life of a psychopathic serial killer, which individual Shaw finds more culpable in her own loss of identity is difficult to infer. She blames her ex husband just as much apparently as a terrible murder. Um,

media and police officials also take predictable flack. Writing the book is therapy, she says, and that might be suitable, a suitable reason to document some of this material. But the paradoxical quote true story in the book's title invites suspicion. Shaw

has read, she says, a book about psychopaths, one about women's intuition, plenty of true crime, and some Ann Rule. A better book might have resulted if Shaw had immersed herself in the kind of journalism that savors the ironies and errors of I Was There accounts. So that everybody is the ironies and errors of I was there accounts.

So that, everybody, is Kaladin. And that is David Alexander Snow and this terrible victim list. And holy shit. And what if they hate her book? Holy shit, does everyone hate her book. And they said the movie was, like, not even as true as the book. It was, like, based loosely on sort of a thing. A bitter divorcee who also

was involved. Who also knew a murderer. My shitty divorce and that murderer I knew is what it could be called. So, if you like that story, Canada and everywhere else,

give us a nice review. Give us five stars on whatever app you listen on because it helps us so much. Drive us up the charts. Please do that. Head over also, wait, follow us on nice review. Give us five stars on whatever app you listen on. It helps. It helps us so much. Drive us up the charts. Please do that. Head over.

Also, wait. Follow us on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook. Please head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com right now. You can still get, if you're listening to this right when it comes out, still get the virtual live show. It happened April 20th. And if it's before April 27th, you can get in there and get it. There it is. Get it.

It was amazing. Jimmy was so stoned. It was wild. Should have seen the look on his face. So there's that. Definitely get tickets May 5th in Detroit. Let's go Detroit. Let's go Detroit.

Fill that bad boy up and show us that you're not dead yet, Detroit. Cross A. A lot of the country thinks you are. Let's tell them that you're not. Because we know it. We go there. it's good shit there it's lively so detroit then pittsburgh on may 6th by the way those are going to be different shows right so it's not the same show both nights because some people have asked i want to drive to both it's only four hours away come do it you're gonna see different fucking shows both nights and a different virtual live show for that matter you'll see three damn shows in two weeks. Different ones.

So do that. Keep coming. And also August the 12th, Chicago. Chicago, fill it up, baby. Milwaukee, come down. Indiana, come over. Let's fucking go. Let's make this the biggest show we've ever had, everybody.

Boy, do I love Chicago. Fucking love Chicago. Never let us down before. So get in there. That's shutupandgivememurder.com. Also, new merch and everything like that is up. Patreon.com slash crimeandsports. What do you get for what?

For $5 or more a month, you get, first of all, the entire back catalog of bonus stuff. It's almost 200 episodes. You'll binge that shit for a while. Then they won't stop either. Every other week, two new episodes. One crime and sports, one small town murder. You get access to it all all of it for only five dollars or more and uh for this week for crime and sports we're going

to talk about we're always talking about players and their shitty behaviors what about the owners they suck too let's talk about owners getting arrested and getting in trouble and having scandals that'll be fun because there's a shitload of them we'll need multiple episodes probably yeah jim ursae is a monster oh my god there's so many of them right up to robert kraft's hand jobs there's just and that's that those are just the book there's so much worse shit that goes on in there then for small town murder it's that time again it's about twice a year we do it love after lock up time which means we're going to talk all about love after lock up the tv show when people go out with prisoners and they get out of jail it's amazing even if you don't watch the show you're going to talk all about Love After Lockup, the TV show when people go out with prisoners and they get out of jail. It's amazing.

Even if you don't watch the show, you're going to want to hear this. And if Love After Lockup is coming around, you know what that means. It means very soon after, a couple weeks later, it's going to be the prisoner dating game season. That old dating game. So we can't wait. It's really the spring is upon us and things are blooming. Love is blooming, everybody. So get in there.

That's patreon.com slash crime and sports. April showers means golden showers. It means May golden showers from a prisoner. So do all of that and keep seeing us and coming back. And what you can do also is you can listen up for your name right here because if you are a patron, you're going to get a shout out where Jimmy mispronounces your name and I think he's going to do that right about fucking now. This week's executive producer

Jordan Bennett, Alec Hawk Frost. Happy birthday, Alec. Clayton Love. Happy birthday. Joel Celerat. Celerite. And Inidza.

Inidza. Inidza probably. Ott. Clay. And Clay Thorson's friend Rich. Hang in there, Rich. Not Rich. Rich. It's Clay's friend Rich. Rich, it's a probably ought. Clay and Clay Thorson's friend Rich. Hang in there, Rich. Not Critch. Critch.

It's Clay's friend Rich. Rich, it's a tough life. If you know anyone named Critch also, you still have to. Tell them also. You're a tough teamster. Hang in. Other producers this week are Liz Vasquez, Andre and Charlie Moldova, Big Ragusa, Carmine Ragusa's wife, husband. Some 90 Day Fiance references there before.

And Carmine's wife. I think that's what it is. I don't know. Rabbi Shmuelovich's new mustache, Haystacks Calhoun, Ashley Dick at the United States Postal Service. Thank you, Ashley. Oh, well, thank you.

Liz Hayden and her friend Jerry. Happy birthday, Jerry. Happy birthday, Jerry. Janice Hill, Shepard Bassett, Larry Burse, Mary Ann with no last name, Mallory Konofsky,

Haley McHale, Ted Van Poppel, Mackenzie Garreau, Lucy, nope, Mary Ann with no last name, Mallory Konofsky, Haley, Haley, Haley McHale, Ted Van Poppel, Mackenzie Garreau, Lucy, nope, that's Susie, Bastille, Jamie Boner, yep, or Bonner, probably Bonner, I don't know. Mary Smith, M.S. Yarborough, Anna Jantz, Jantz maybe, William Bruni, Bruni Jr.,

Bobby with no last name, Christy Festermacher, Becca with no last name, Jacob Desrockers. Ankit Shah? Ankit, maybe? Ankit, probably. Amanda Oborski? Oborski. Oh, boy. Michael Maynard, Lori Bauer, Andrew Jones, Mary Ann with no last name. Isn't that Chipper Jones' name, Andrew Jones? I think so. No, no. It's Larry.

Chipper Jones' name is Larry? I believe he's larry andrew jones was the center fielder they had that's right you're right those 90s andrew hansen sherry sherry white graham which graham maybe uh ryan dean shannon jameson luis castro nicole brianna uh caitlin fritz and fritzinger uh tilt tilda preble preble uh bronston brown just bronston brown jessica hall, Cheyenne Reed, Micah with no last name, confusing shit. Grace with no last name, Sheila Torres.

Lexi with no last name, Dr. Love Muscle, and his cat, Mr. Buttons. Julie O'Neill, Rebecca Laguio. Laguio? What? I think I spelled that wrong. Jillian Nusslein. Sorry, Rebecca. Sorry.

Rebecca L. We tried. Jillian Nusslein, Nicole Veitch, Rebecca. Sorry. Rebecca L. We tried. Julian Nesline. Nicole Veitch. Veitch, maybe. Lauren Gorman. Barbara with no last name. Ann Gears.

Rachel Roberts. Muff Punter. Gross. Nicole Jennings. Carrie Fletcher. A bucket of wriggling peckers. TJ S. Scren. Megan Campbell.

Demon Juice. Elizabeth Thrower. Brandi Hunter. Marissa Heacock. Andrew with no last name. Kenny Coondog, Rebecca Simpson, Dana Lashawn Gleason, Juliana Taylor, Corey Forsman, Miles Hollywood, Neurodivergent Hippie, Victoria Gray Bross, Chelsea with no last name, Kate Gray, Joe Galante, Jessica with no last name, Caitlin Scott, Nicole Dubé, maybe Dubé, J40, Jonathan Tippett, Leah Kaufman, Travis Hembree, Joanna Slattery, A. Rivera, Snoop Warg, Crystal Cooper, Carla Evans. Harvey Elder. Christy Mitchell. Magna Trzasky. H.S.

No name. Just H and an S. Micah Farmer. Pat McGroin. You, Pat McGroin. I know what you're doing. Amy Hilliker. I like her.

Alicia Rose. Jared Redding. Cindy with no last name. Robert Bensept. Patrick Lofney. Jillian Newingham, MMM, two Ms, Jasmine Sullivan, Michael with no last name, Aidan LeBlanc, Abby M, Tammy Harper, Bryce Schmitke, John Shea, Callie Howe, Ashley Smoltz, Ashley Frazier, Leo Rios, Eric Falk, Chuck with no last name, Allison Hogue, Sarah Sue McClain, Lauren Jones, James Pilsen, Keith Wilson, Josh Goodenough, Megan Hupp, David Bailey, Grandmaster Gerald, Bridget Naughton, Sean with no last name, Kevin Williams, Van Lambert, Rebecca with no last name. Chupa, you Chupa Mavariga. How dare you? Faith Sadowski, Sarah Curran, Dusty Kendall, Jennifer Dexter, Anthony Koshinsky, Shannon Litanich, Emily Scott, Sasha Elmore, Gabriel Lopez, Cora Gavitt, Josh Bentley, Ioana Carr. That's a real name.

Bentley, Yoana Carr. That's a real name. Joanna S.F., Miranda G., Amy Armstrong, Tyler Scott, Brittany Scott, Steve Malayden, Matt Krause, Megan Williams, Elias, the dude, Mark Villanueva, Margaret Schaefer, Molly Pine, Alex Hatfield-Evans, Alejandra Herrera, Rebecca Kiker, and all of our patrons. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. So much. You crazy, crazy bastards.

We appreciate you more than you can possibly imagine. So thanks for hanging with us. Thanks for doing everything for us. Thanks for everything. Keep hanging with us. You want to follow us on social media individually. Real easy to do that. Shut up and give me murder dot com.

Grab that thing. Pull it down the menu. Links everywhere. Follow us. Hang out with us. Keep coming back week after week. up and give me murder.com grab that thing pull it down the menu links everywhere follow us hang out with us keep coming back week after week and until next week everybody it's been our pleasure Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.