Small Town Murder - #384 - Dismembering Grandma - Trail Creek, Indiana

Episode Date: May 5, 2023

This week, in Trail Creek, Indiana, an unhappy woman uses her teenage sons as her her personal murder squad, forcing them to kill both their father, and grandmother. They almost get away with it, too, considering they almost did a perfect job of disposing of grandma, using everything from a chainsaw, to a deep fat fryer to try get rid of the body. Where they finally end up getting rid of the remaining parts is certainly one for the record books! A truly insane case!!Along the way, we find out that hanging out in the "blistering cold" doesn't sound very festive, that you can talk a teenager into any horrible plan you might have, and going AWOL from the Navy to try to help dispose of your grandmother's dismembered corpse is not a great decision!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay and choo-choo! Oh, yay Town Murder Express. Yay and choo choo. Oh yay indeed Jimmy, yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo, I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us all aboard the murder train. Let's get away from the station here because holy hell do we have a crazy story for you today.

As usual and man this is just wild stuff so before we get to it very quickly just want to say uh shut up and give me murder.com is where you get tickets to your live shows for the rest of the year we are may 5th in detroit we are may 6th in pittsburgh there's a bunch of sold out shows in july and then august we are at aug 12th. We are in Chicago. Let's make it the biggest show we've ever done, everybody. Let's get in there, Chicago. What a place. I love Chicago. We can't wait.

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Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get, first of all, the whole back catalog, hundreds of episodes of bonus stuff to binge, and then you're also going to get new episodes every other week, one crime and sports, one small town murder, and you get it all this week for crime and sports. What you're going to get, we're going to talk about some owner criminals, some team owners who got into some law problems because, yeah, we pick on the players for, you know, seven, seven, eight years or so. So why not get in on the owners, too?

And then for small town murder, we are going to talk about love after lockup. Yeah. Love after lockup time. Oh, I love it so much. Every six months or so, we have to catch up with these people, tell you about their lives and make it so you'll feel much better about your life hearing about their lives because every single one is a disaster. You'd think one of them would be like wow doing great nope never happens even the ones that get it together and seem to be building they uh they fall apart they trash that's right so that is shut up that's patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you

get all that and you get a shoutout at the end of the regular show. And make sure, because it's going to be in May, it'll be coming out, Your Stupid Opinions, our new show. Can't wait for that. It's going to come out on Monday mornings, we've figured out. So it'll be out on Monday mornings, and it'll be sometime in May. So we'll give you an exact date. Probably maybe next week we'll work on that.

So thank you for checking that out. That said, let's get into this, Jimmy, because holy shit, I think it's time to sit back. Clear the lungs, everybody. I don't care where you are today. It doesn't matter. I'm going to say anything. Let's have a chorus of people. Wherever you are, I need you to stand upon the highest ledge possible, arms to the sky, and shout,

Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, Jimmy. What do you say? Let's go on a trip, shall we? We're going to Indiana. Hey. Ho, ho, Indiana here. We're going to, this is northern Indiana, like very tip-top, up near Lake Michigan there, you know, way up there.

About an hour and 15 minutes to Chicago. You go to the west five hours all the way down to Cynthiana, Indiana, which was our last Indiana episode. Much stranger things. That was a wild episode. And that was all the way down to the southern part. Small population here. Not a big place. Nineteen hundred fifty four people in the whole town tiny tiny little place

here uh median household income little above the national average sixty four thousand sixty three dollars and the median home price a little bit less than the national average is that it was one hundred ninety nine thousand six hundred dollars how about this pretty close to the water maybe a hidden gem who knows we'll see here so here. Or just a bleak part of Indiana. We don't know. So the town is Trail Creek, Indiana here that we're going to. Now, Trail Creek became incorporated in 1924, but it wasn't known as Trail Creek at that point. It was known as Roski-ville.

What? R-O-E-S-K-E-Y-ville. Roski-ville. That's gross. Yeah. Well, there was a pair of brothers named the Roski brothers, and that's why they called it that. There was only 150 people at that time. So it was a very tiny little crossroads of a place here. The road, basically basically they completed the michigan road which opened northwest indiana to settlers back in 1831 so the road went through what was basically forest and uh so people could get to this place and get to up here so in 1834 a guy built a dam across trail creek and um you know got some water going in a certain way and all that kind of shit. Then he built a sawmill and he sold it to some German immigrants, the Roskies.

So that's how it became Roskieville because of this. What an ugly, gross last name. It's a tough one. It's very strong and sturdy. Roski. Sounds like Roski could pick up a steel beam, throw it over his shoulder, and carry it to you and drop it on the ground, but

maybe not the most attractive man. I see hair coming out of moles is what I see for some reason. And a protruding forehead. Probably yes, a very Neanderthal forehead. I don't know why i eyebrow ridge a solid one strange for some reason but yeah they had the roski brickyards and all that kind of shit uh the site of the brick factories is now the michigan fish and game club so they because they had them

right on the lake they had brick factories on the lake so you could put them on a shit on a boat and sail it out oh that makes sense but now instead they have um you know it's a it's a it's by the water so now it's like nice um so yeah they uh now there's apparently uh uh a thriving industry and plant producing economical building materials that's what it says producing plant. Reviews of this town. There we go. There we go. There's a few of them here. Here's five stars. They love it. I live in a small town. It's quiet and peaceful.

Sounds like it's going to be a poem, right? Like the next line is going to rhyme. Where's that shit? Everyone knows everybody, which makes a safe neighborhood. Everybody watches over each other property and immediate reports suspicious behavior. Okay. That's annoying. Over each other's and immediately. They just trail

off the end of words. That's bothering me. Three stars. There are a few abandoned lots throughout the area, but mostly occupied lots, even if they aren't the most beautiful looking ones. So most of them, there's not a lot of abandoned places. Most of the houses have people

in them, even if they're shitholes is what they're saying. They're occupied shitholes. Even the trash we occupy. I mean, it's occupied. It looks like shit because nobody's keeping it up, but there's people living in there. Okay, good. uh three stars here michigan city because that's nearby michigan city's crime rate typically fluctuates some days it's pretty decent and other times it hits an all-time low just like it would anywhere else what are you talking about some days there's crime some days there's not some days it rains and some days the sun's out what are you talking about pretty Some days there's crime. Some days there's not. Some days it rains and some days the sun's out. What are you talking about?

Pretty decent or none at all. Or none at all. Other times it hits an all-time low. Right. Then they even say, in the end, they clarify that this was not a necessary review by saying just like it would anywhere else. Well, then it's not necessary for you to tell us that. You fucking idiot. What's the weird stuff here? Oh, my God. All right. like it would anywhere else well then it's not necessary for you to tell us that you fucking idiot let's see what's the weird stuff here oh my god all right three stars again yeah again a

really perplexing person this is why we're doing your stupid opinions because these everyone who leaves reviews the psychology of leaving a review right away is there's something sketchy there but it's fascinating it's fascinating here's three stars my town used to be lower on a scale of one to five however in recent years it has definitely improved so now it's higher why not just say town's gotten better lately or the roundabout way to say that used to be lower on a scale of one to five let me say something really concise and totally in a confusing fashion. Okay. While there are certain areas in Michigan City that aren't all that great, my particular neighborhood is nice, quiet, and safe. Okay.

I'm already annoyed with these people from this town. Okay. They're very confusing individuals. Michigan City is confusing. So things to do, the Shelf Ice Brew Fest. What the fuck is that? It's an amazing beer festival held outdoors in Indiana near the blistering cold snow-covered shores of Lake Michigan. Four big tents with 40 local and regional craft breweries, home brewers, and surprises for this year. Fun snow stuff, fire pits, ice sculptures, food trucks,

lots of fun people to have fun with. This is from the website. Right, in the blistering cold. Blistering cold. Blistering cold. That's as cold as it gets, right? Blistering. You've got blisters from it? Let's see.

A straight jacket, local hero, and a little crazy will be on draft at the third. Is that the bands? Those are the names of the beers. Oh, those are the beers. I thought they had bands play. Straight jacket beer. Oh, yeah. Okay.

Because it'll make you crazy. Make you crazy and local hero and then a little crazy. Because, you know, they're made by the makers of straight. You don't quite need a straight jacket yet. That's the lower alcohol content. That's the 6%. The other one's like a 9%. Straight jacket.

Got to wade in the micro brew waters with the little crazy. Straight jacket will have you drooling on a metal cot at some point tonight. So the other thing is the annual Trail Creek Fun Float. Okay. It's just. I mean, isn't all floating fun? I mean, it seems fun. So the other thing is the annual Trail Creek Fun Float. Okay. Isn't all floating fun? I mean, it seems fun. Join the Northwest Indiana Paddling Association.

That exists. They got a whole association. You never heard of the NIPA, Jimmy? You never heard of the NIPA? The NIPA, it's big. NIPA's big. And our partners, the Trail Creek Watershed Partnership for the 14th annual Trail Creek Fun Float. Starting at the Washington Park boat ramp, paddlers will exit the marina into Trail Creek and paddle upstream to Friendship Gardens.

Take a break to stretch your legs, then head back out on the marina to finish your trip. Hey. That's the festival. That's it. That's it. And there's a a one note there is a parking fee to enter the park so it does cost you money to float so cost you money and then you gotta paddle upstream Jesus Christ why don't we start there and come back here that's what I'm saying and we won't need as many breaks to stretch our legs let the water do the work Jesus Christ guys what

are we doing how much paddling do we want to do here it is the paddling association i had two straight jackets i'm uh not ready for a paddle it's not the floating association it's the paddling association that's why if it was the northwest indiana floating association nifa that's a different organization jimmy all right that said let's talk about a murder everybody let's do it multiple murder in this case oh let's talk about a murder everybody let's do it multiple murder in this case oh let's talk about a lady first ladies here's one for you this is hilma her name is hilma h-i-l-m-a her last name should be roski hilma roski uh hilma marie witty w-i-t-t-e witty um she goes by marie because hilma is a name that no one has ever used terrible name this sounds like a fucking town in louisiana on the on the swamp that sounds yeah well there's homa they have home yeah that's why that's why god damn it hilma sounds like a

german woman born in 1904 yeah like someone who's you're like you would say like my great grandma hilma like hilma you'd be like yeah i don't know she's a giant german lady who knows and she cooks and makes me eat it oh man just constant sauerkraut yeah doesn't even go on anything just a plate of family recipes just clumps of sauerkraut plates with your hand that's all it does right on the table no plate like my grandmother would whip out the polenta and pour it on the table and you'd be like, what are we? Barbarians? Let's use a plate. What are we going to do now?

Going to scoop this up before it fucking leaks off the table. So Hilma Marie Witte is born April 20th, 1948. 420. 420 chick. She's born in Pittsburgh but she gets around a little bit. She ends up in Indiana by way of Florida at some point.

Oh. Her family ends up in Florida. Her half-sister here, Regina, she says, quote, my birth father ran a nudist camp in Delray, Florida. Is that right? Yeah. So think about it. Ran it. In the, Florida. Is that right? Yeah. So think about it. Ran it. In the 50s, we're talking.

Yeah. So this is nowadays a nudist camp. Nobody gives a shit about that. In the 50s, that was aberrant behavior. That's wild. Yeah. You were wild in the 50s if you were doing nudist shit. That was like, wow, mind blown, marijuana,, marijuana, cigarettes and jazz band type shit right there.

I don't know what the hell these people are doing. It's out. It's out. God damn beatniks beatnik with your tits out. She said we walked around nude all the time. But as a child, I never felt uncomfortable. That's the most uncomfortable you should be. Yeah.

But if you're a your little kids don't give a shit they can't wait to be nude they're ripping their diapers off you're like no put that on i don't want to clean shit up what are you doing so i guess if you just never teach them shame i guess i don't i guess you wouldn't have any teach them clothes yeah i don't know but whatever the case is here that's how they grew up blue lagoon kids felt weird about putting clothes on later. That's what I mean. You know what I mean? Yeah.

So who knows? We don't know. But that's the environment, a Florida nudist camp that these girls grew up in. So Marie is a different kind of chick anyway. So her mom is Margaret Marcy. She goes by O'Donnell. So Marcy, she's born in 1927 we'll talk about that uh but we'll talk more about her mom plenty later but marie finds herself a husband here yeah she finds

herself a husband named paul now okay paul paul witty is his name paul is older than her about 10 years older than her 11 years older than her uh he worked in the steel industry yeah and was also a volunteer firefighter how's he feel about clothes well i think he wears them that's he wears them yeah he's a he's a clothes guy if we have clothes people and non-clothes people he's on the clothes he's on the clothes side of the fence so um he but this is the thing that's later on because in the beginning i feel like he wasn't so into clothes because they met at the father's nudist camp holy when she was 15 jimmy so oh boy he's a 26 year old man at a nudist camp walking around with his dick and balls flopping everywhere in the florida sun by the way

which seems crazy that cock is freckled everyone just stroking their cock just sunscreen just putting sunscreen on really gotta work it into the skin you know what i mean you gotta you gotta hold that banana boat up real high people see you my god so all right walking around with his 26 27 year old balls flopping all over the place yeah and he's like cool there's a naked teenager there's a naked sophomore in front of me oh my god this is so weird um hey how you doing oh your dad runs the place that's great i'd love to meet him so yeah here you got her dad and and some other and some steel worker with their cocks out shaking each other's hands going, I'd love to date your naked 15-year-old. How's that sound?

And everyone's okay with this. This is all fine with everyone. This is how you get on a podcast about murder. This is how you do it, everyone. If that's what you're going for you got this is what i mean you need to put the extra effort in because this is fucking crazy murder will murder will touch your life in one way or another you can't just be normal and and commit a murder you have to be this so holy paul's sister said about marie quote when i first met marie hopefully with clothes

on i'm just going to interject here when i first met Marie, I thought her tits were great. When I first met Marie was just before they got married. She's not what I imagined that my brother would marry. She was loud and nobody, at least in my family. She was loud and nobody, at least in my family, was impressed with her. Oh, nobody was impressed. Nobody's impressed with her. So she's just a lot.

Maybe because she's 15. Maybe that's why. Maybe if you went out. They blame her for not being like having better social skills at 15 rather than blaming a grown man who fucking does steel work for bringing a 15-year-old over. Hi, I met a nude 15-year-old. Here she is. Oh oh i don't know

i expected her to be more you know expect her to play pinochle better what the fuck do you want from her she's 15 how do you bring a 15 year old to family gatherings as a 26 year old with clothes on hopefully at all it's much weirder to bring a naked 15 year old over at least if she's clothed you know you can say something but as a 26 year old you can't bring a 15 year old over at least if she's clothed you know you can say something but as a 26 year old you can't bring a 15 year old to your no family gatherings be like this is my girlfriend who wouldn't feel weird about that like i would feel real weird about that shit so in 1964 they get married and he's 27 she's 16 jesus christ so yeah i mean this is wow out of bounds man i don't even know this is unhinged shit right here it's really not that long ago for that to be fucking acceptable that is crazy 64 i

don't know there's kennedy just got shot a lot of things were going on man i don't know people didn't know what to do people had their dicks out around kids and they didn't know what to do with life his wife was real young at this time, too. That's what I mean. Jerry Lee Lewis had already married his cousin who was 12 or something. It's a lot. Oh, Jesus. The 14, whatever she was.

So in 1965, they welcome their first son into the world here. And he's getting her pregnant. Absolutely. Why else do you marry a naked teenager except to impregnate them? Those tubes are too new. Oh, they're brand new. They've still got that new tube smell to them. All pink and everything, you know.

She's still got that new uterus smell. It's just... Fuck. Kid comes out clean. So he's born in 1965. Kid comes out clean. So he's born in 1965. And then in 1970, they have another son named John who doesn't go by John, though.

They call him and everyone calls him Butch. Oh, I was going to say Jack. Nope. Butch. That's what I mean. Why not just name him Butch? So Eric and Butch is a name. It's not even a nickname. Butch is a name. Just call him Butch. So eric and butch is a name it's not even a nickname butch is a name just call him

butch so eric and butch here uh yeah butch being five years younger now um one of the family members said of the children eric was more of a sportsman uh he had dad's favor he was sort of the golden child butch came along and he's a mama's boy so that's how it goes which is normal that's a lot of i wouldn't i wouldn't pick that name to be the mama's boy well maybe that's why they called him butch just to yeah it's a reverse nickname to try to toughen him up a little oh yeah butch yeah come on he's hanging on his mom's leg hiding behind crying butch yeah put some clothes on butch jesus christ that's a sentence you never said to a guy named Butch. Stop crying.

Stop crying and let go of your mommy's dress, Butch. You don't hear that a lot, really. It's mostly bitch. It's more like, come on, Butch, yard time. That's what you hear, Mort. Yard time. Let's go. Let's go, Butch.

Wreck time. After you hear prrling of a clang of a nightstick across bars. Lights out, Butch. So now they are apparently at different parenting styles here. The Butch and Eric described their father as being a very strict authoritarian. Okay. Which when his penis is out, you're going to listen. That's all I'm going to say.

If he's nude, you're listening. So, now, they said they had a lot of, Eric said he had a lot of good memories of his dad, but at the same time, Paul would also beat the shit out of him if he made any little mistake. Really? Which also kind of was what people did back then. There was a limit of, you know was a there's a limit of you know

a smack or a hit on the ass that was acceptable back then as far as you know not an all-out beating you know but right there's a child abuse was mild child abuse was great strict strict authoritarian and fucking child abuse yeah yeah he would he would beat the kid up if he did anything wrong, which was an issue. Paul would work. He'd do the steel work and volunteer fire fight. Sure. And Marie was a homemaker.

She stayed home with the kids, two little boys. You got to keep an eye on them. So according to the family here throughout the 70s, they all complained that she, quote, kept a messy house. Not a good housekeeper, which with two little boys, too, it is difficult because they will make a mess. They will make messes. Yeah. So they said that later on, though, after her father died, after Marie's father died, Marcy, her mom, moved in with them in the late 70s.

And so she kept the house clean like at that point at that point he didn't even mind paul because he was like holy shit i come home fucking house is clean wow yeah stay as long as you like you know she was i'm gonna keep marcy he was thrilled with it he's like this is terrific um but marie not so thrilled with paul no no marie keeps making comments to her family, especially her mom, on a daily basis of her desire to be away from Paul. She'd like to leave here. He had been physically abusive to her and both sons. So they're like, he's kind of beaten the shit out of all of us.

But she told her mom that she thought any kind of property settlement and a divorce where she'd basically be fucked. She'd have nothing. She'd have nowhere to go. And then financial problems arise as well, which adds tension to a good relationship, never mind one where someone wants out of it on a daily basis. You're punching me in a house we can't even afford? This is crazy. Yeah. You've got to mortgage your punches better is what it crazy. Yeah. You need to you got a mortgage.

Your punch is better is what it is. Yeah. You want to slap someone around. You at least got to pay the bills and then still don't slap anyone around. But you can't punch me in the dark because the lights off. That's not cool at all. Maybe that's her strategy. You make it dark so he can't see anyone to abuse them.

I don't know. It's adding injury to insult. This is crazy, man. This sucks. By summer of 1981, it really comes to a head as Marie and Paul took out a loan to buy some furniture. They took out a loan. Now, Marie used the furniture money for, quote, other purposes. use the furniture money for quote other purposes oh don't know what the don't know what those other purposes are but if you borrow money to buy furniture from like a take out a loan from like

a bank to buy furniture and don't buy furniture the other person's gonna be real pissed that's like junkie behavior so yeah uh paul was really fucking mad and he was pissed at the furniture place saying, Marie, call them. When the fuck is the furniture going to be delivered? He thought she bought the furniture and she told him, yeah, Paul, I bought the furniture. I don't know where it is. I'll call tomorrow. Don't worry. So, he's doing steel work and she's at home not buying furniture, spending the money on something else.

And now she's coming to a point where she's kind of fucked because he's getting mad like i'm gonna go in there and kick that salesman's ass he said the furniture would fucking be here and it's not here this is bullshit at some point you got to come home and sit down on a sofa and if it never materializes yeah oh boy so marie's either got to get real handy real quick and start learning how to make something to sit on or she's got to figure out something else here because uh if this is especially if you have a nude abusive steel worker coming at you like i don't feel like you don't got a glass jaw darling he's gonna be i don't think he's gonna be reasonable and he would demand to know when the furniture is going to be

delivered so marie at that point said, I got to get rid of Paul and I could divorce him. But like I said, financial settlement won't be that great. I'll just kill him. Okay. That'll be easier. Is that right? That's much easier. So he, she began lacing his food with poison in the interim. Look on your face just now, Jimmy went, opened his mouth to speak and then just cocked his head like i don't even know what to say about that all she has all she has to do is buy the sofa no no it's easier to lace his food with rat poison and valium that's a more reasonable approach on this show holy shit um wow i now he did make her a child bride and then abuse her so i mean there's there's i can understand her being upset but holy shit um so she thought he was allergic to valium

and uh also obviously rat poison is rat poison so he was she was like i'll cover my bases here double whammy double wham. So he was doing that. Nothing was happening, though. No? No, he's fine. She's like, what the fuck with this guy? Just clears his sinuses? Yeah, he's like, man, I feel great.

He wakes up. He's like, I'm going to go to work nude today. I just feel confident. So Marie then talks to her son, Eric, who's 15 years old at this point. And she's like, we need to kill your dad. Yeah, you should be married. You can murder. You should be nude and married by now.

What the fuck? You know? So she's like, all right, you should do it because you're a kid. Okay. That'd be much better than me doing it, obviously, because I'm an adult. They'd be mad at me for it. You, you get away with it. You'll do less time.

Well, he goes, well, how the hell should I kill dad? That's crazy. I should kill dad. And she goes, well, either shoot him or you could bludgeon him with a hammer. Those are a couple of good options. She said, if you're a juvenile, if if you get caught you'll get a much lesser penalty than me and you'll probably get away with it even because you're a kid so eric kept saying no no no no and while he's saying no she's continuing the poison regimen that she's giving him over the

over the time here and then finally september 1st 1981 the furniture has come to a head and September 1st, 1981, the furniture has come to a head, and Paul is taking a nap in the bed, by the way, not on the couch. No, he's actually on a couch. So he's got a comfy enough couch to take a nap on. That's not bad. To fall asleep on, yeah. But he could be sleeping on a new couch, and he's not. So he's taking a nap. This is, by the way, in Beverly Shores, Indiana, which is nearby here.

It's just to the west of that. So it's this day that Marie said, Eric, you have to shoot your dad. I'm sorry. Get it. Let's do it. You got to pull your weight here. So Eric said no. Then Marie said, well, if you don't kill your father, I'll kill myself.

And then what are you going to do with no mother and you're stuck here with that abusive nude asshole all by yourself? Huh? What about that? I mean, it doesn't sound like she's bringing much to the table anyway. That's what she says. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx

and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye-bye.

The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery+, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community.

Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn

between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. So Eric's like, well, I don't want you to kill yourself.

And then she said, well, I'm leaving the house and I will not return until you kill your father. So you're motherless no matter what until you kill your father. That's what she says. Thanks, mom. Bye. So she leaves, leaves the house, says, I'll be back when he's dead. So she later on called Eric and said, did you shoot your father yet?

Like, did you take out the garbage? Did you shoot your father yet? Did you mow the lawn? Did you do your chore? Yeah, mow the lawn, clean your room, shoot your father. What the fuck? How many times do I have to tell you? Grandma's cleaned the whole house.

Yeah, he said, I can't do it. I can't kill my father. I don't want to shoot him. And she said said i'm not coming home unless he's dead so later on that day the beverly shores police department get a frantic call from bever or from uh from uh marie saying that she arrived home to find her husband dead from a gunshot wound oh my god yeah um the detective said paul had apparently been asleep on the couch his old couch right when he was shot in the head the officers arrived on the scene and found that it's by the way it's a big old hole because he was shot with a 357 magnum at close range that is a big gun to fucking yeah close range into somebody's head so they find out the

shooter is 15 year old eric and they're like what the fuck and he said i tripped on the carpet and it went off what that's what he said that's yeah i tripped on the rug and i i went i almost fell and i squeam i squeezed and i i just i accidentally you know how they say don't run with scissors also don't walk with a gun it's way worse with a 357 that's so and the the police guy a police detective said it wasn't a well-kept house at all by any stretch of the imagination it wasn't impossible for what he said to have happened someone tripping so i we keep an open mind okay i mean he said it's a mess i could see tripping in here so now uh butch john at the time and of course marcy who was also in the house who lives there wow they said they didn't see anything they just heard a gunshot heard it they didn't

know anything the cops said the angle of the gunshot didn't look accidental. Just the angle of it looked real on purpose, they said. It was a down shot. Yeah. So they tried to speak with Eric, and his mother said she wanted a lawyer. You're not speaking to my son unless he has a lawyer present. He later spoke with detectives in the presence of both Marie and a lawyer. So between the two of them, he's not going to get to answer much here.

He repeated the story. He found the gun in his home and brought it to his father to ask about the safety mechanism. His father was asleep on the couch. As he approached him, he tripped on the rug. The gun went off. He's horrified. He feels terrible. Terrible.

If only I knew how to operate the safety. That's why. If only he was awake. So then they talked to Marie, and here is one of the police detectives here, Officer James Bonfield. He collected evidence at the home. He said, Hilma Witte's demeanor was calm and casual. As we talked, she interjected laughter into the conversation. What?

Yeah. He said, I remember that she giggled as she talked she didn't appear to be very upset with the entire incident that night well i mean it's a trip it's hilarious it's isn't this so weird i mean you trip you fall sometimes accidents guys feel free to take your clothes off by the way if you're more comfortable just i don't we don't mind so they talked to her about three hours after the death and she's talking to this is a tape recorded conversation with the police she's giggling while telling people she uh she didn't know whether her husband was sleeping on his back or his side because he rolled around a lot she giggled she tosses and turns she giggled twice as she talked about her husband's guns, according to the transcription.

She said she didn't allow them in the house. She also said she was out of the house briefly on a shopping trip. When she returned, Eric told her that he had accidentally shot his father. So, yeah, like we said, he gave his description. the autopsy the doctor george azar here he says that the uh when he was killed by a gunshot that fired into the top into his head from a gun held against the top of his head oh like yeah pop like that that is a different type of thing you tripped right into pop right just bang right on his head perfect i mean it's a perfect storm you you know? Immaculate, the immaculate.357 shot. The only foreign substance found in his body was Tylenol.

That's it. So she had stopped poisoning him by then. The cop says, quote, I told Marie and told the attorney, you'll see me again someday because he's getting by with this, meaning Eric, and he'll do this again. So trust me, you're going to see me again. Like again like we think he did it we don't have the evidence but we all know what the fuck happened here and next time he shoots somebody again i'll be here to to clean it up so it could

be you uh and also if you get away with murder you'll probably try murder again yeah especially if mom's getting you out of it so they they collect, Marie collects a small life insurance policy, and Marie and the boys move in with Paul's widow stepmother. Huh. Okay, not his real mother's widow. So his mom died or they got divorced, remarried, and then dad died, and now we've got stepmom. We've got stepmom who has been around for a long time,

apparently since he was a child. So it's it's a not just like some lady from recently she's a mainstay she's a mainstay in this whole thing she's in her early 70s her name's elaine uh elaine witty so um they moved to her house at 320 johnson road and trail creek so by the way the kids accounts of the shooting of dad couldn't be more different. Later on, these are the accounts they'll give. Okay, this is crazy.

John said that he saw the whole thing. Oh. And this is Butch. He said, Eric calmly stood over his father's sleeping body and pulled the trigger. And he did say, acting under our mother's orders. Eric said he was enraged because his father had beaten him an hour earlier. This is once we get past the accident shit, which will pop up later. For now, police have just said it's an accident.

It's fine. So John said he saw Eric do it. That's what Butch said. Eric said Butch could not have seen it because he was locked in a bedroom in another part of the house when it happened. Eric said he does not remember the exact moment he pulled the trigger, but he remembers standing over his father's body, aiming the gun and cocking it. The next thing he remembers is the flash of the gun and his father's body jerking into the air, he said. Jerking into the air. Eric said he laid down the gun and ran out of the house Now Butch said that he was the one who had been beaten

that night, not Eric He said Paul got mad at him for letting his pet bat get loose in the house What is it with weird, flying fucking pets on this show? What is going on? What's happening?

When your pet has wings what is going on with this nude people and bats this is fucking crazy um and if i as a father if i have a child that has a pet bat and that shit gets out i'll beat you i will beat your little ass for that when they get the bat i'll go listen you can have the bat but if it ever gets out you're gonna get a throttling like you have no idea like steal yourself for it now i will kick your little ass so now eric says that john didn't have a pet bat even though john said he had a pet bat and it got out and he got beat for it eric said he didn't even have a pet bat. I don't know what's happening. Eric said that Paul's anger that night had to do with a dog. Paul raised and

raced teams of sled dogs. This gets weirder by the minute. Sled dogs in Indiana. Sled dogs in Indiana. He became angry because Eric hadn't adequately trained one of the dogs so he beat him. That's Eric's story. So it's either a pet bat or not a trained dog.

I don't know what's going on. So they move in with Elaine. Now, over the next three years, they live with Elaine, and everything seems to be going well on the surface. Elaine and Marie get along. After high school, Eric joins the Navy. His father had been in the Navy as well, so he's going to go into the Navy. On the surface surface everything's

great yeah in reality marie is discussing with her sons various ways in which they might kill elaine let's kill elaine what do you say come on we need elaine to go away now you know what that was that really brought our family closer together our last murder let's do another and she reminds me of paul so let's get rid of this what the hell this is like she's like the manson family this fucking lady uh so she often by the way over these three years she often forged elaine's signature on social security checks and cashed them so they discussed poisoning strangling we could strangle her the poisoning worked well poisoning worked well an older lady they might not they might just think she had a heart attack they're thinking so maybe we poison her we could strangle her that's a possible make it look like a break-in we could just obvious you know we could do we could

literally we could this is one of the solutions we could push her out of a window and say she fell out it's true she just fell out of a push her out of a window what the fuck kind of a murder plot is that he said we could shoot her too you never know right so shoulder in her from the second story i think that's gonna break her hip you know something will happen on several occasions marie put poison in her food and drink as well and went like hey and nothing happened she was a terrible poisoner not good at it at all she doesn't know how much it takes no um so finally january 8th 1984 here the day before this elaine told her mother to fill out a withdrawal form this or i'm sorry marie told her mother marcy to fill out a withdrawal form to remove six thousand dollars from elaine witty's account. We're going to steal $6,000 from her. Morning of January 8, 1984, Marie wakes John up, wakes Butch up,

who's 15 years old at this time, and says, you got to go kill your grandma today. Go kill grandma. Okay, wake up. It's time to kill grandma. He's like, I don't want to kill grandma. I'm tired. She's like, no, you have to kill grandma.

He's 15 now grandma he's 15 now he's 15 now job wasn't he 15 when he killed his dad that was eric this is bush oh eric's in the navy eric when you're 15 that's when you become a man that's when you become yeah yeah when you're 13 you have a bar mitzvah if you're jewish if when you're 15 if you're whatever the fuck is it when you're a witty it's time to murder somebody it's time to get nude and murder so he says quote my mom said i could strangle her or use my crossbow it was up to me what the fuck is happening didn't she give two options to to uh too. Yeah. She's giving you options. She's not unreasonable.

You've got choices. So Marcy, Marie's mom, later said, Elaine was going to die and it was going to look like an accident. That's it. That's how it was going to be. So they talked about this. By the way, they discussed this in the presence of Butch's girlfriend as well. They did that. They all met up at a local motel to discuss the plot with her mom, too. Marcy showed up, Butch, his girlfriend.

It was a real meeting of the minds at the motel to discuss this. Everybody gets an opinion in here. It was a real brainstorm. Yeah, that's all. In the end, Marcy said, quote, and Marie said that Elaine was going on a vacation and she said for a long vacation and Butch said she may never come back. So that's what they're going to tell people. So what he does is he tells her, you know, make it look like an accident. her mom to go to Elaine's house and fend off any inquiries, if any friends or neighbors come over, while she and John will dismember and destroy the body.

Oh, my God. We're going to get rid of it. Yes. So John has a medieval-style crossbow that he shoots her with in the ribcage. Oh, my. While she's sleeping in bed, he comes up and shoots her in the ribcage with a medieval crossbow. Could this get weirder? Or is it just, am I out of my fucking mind here?

Oh, Jesus. Want it to get weirder and grosser? Yeah. So then they're going to use, as this from the court documents, quote, using various instruments, including a hammer, chisel, deep fat fryer, saw, and microwave, the family then dismembered Elaine and disposed of her body in various ghastly ways. It has evolved from make it look like an accident to we'll just make her disappear. We'll make her disappear.

Say she went on vacation and she never came back. That's the plan. And we'll microwave her ass. This is bonkers so they said that her body was stuffed in a garbage can in an upstairs bedroom at first just to you know till they figure it out uh there was a bloody this is what marcy will say later that there was a bloody chest stain on her blue nightclothes so she got shot she was wearing a fucking nightgown in bed and she got shot with this shit um mom here this is uh marcy marie's mom she said that that she lined the basement freezer with

shelf paper you know to protect it like shelf paper that goes under your glasses on the shelves to protect in case there's water on it while her daughter and grandson carried a circular saw hammers a chisel knives heavy plastic and plywood into the bedroom oh god are they in the gambino family what the yes fuck is going on they would this family would make a great mafia family i gotta say truly they have no fucking heart um so they worked continually through this week. They spent a week doing this because it's hard, you know, and they had other shit to do. Now, everybody at the family would stay at a hotel while she would stay home and work on this. Marcy would later say, I saw them carrying bags down to the freezer.

Bloody towels, rugs, bloody tools. Yeah, they cut her up with knives and a chainsaw, used a trash compactor and garbage disposal to destroy some of the meaty parts, basically, that they had no bones and shit. They also used acid to dissolve

some of her bones. This is crazy. 70-something-year- year old woman 74 at this point oh boy um and marcy will say this quote and here we go again jimmy it never fails us never fails us quote marie's contention right along was a right along was that if there was no body, no evidence, there could be what, Jimmy? No crime. No crime, man. No body, no crime. Why does it keep happening?

Hey, hey. Because people are fucking stupid on this show. That's why. Murderers are stupid. To say, I could do this. I'll get away with it. That's stupid. No body, no crime gonna shoot my husband while he is

nude hey nobody no crime i'll shoot his stepmom too and then i'm gonna shoot his stepmama too Except Mama too. Hey, ho. What the fuck? Nobody no crime. They can just. What the fuck? I'm beside myself right now. I don't know what to say. The amount of work that this is taking too. It's crazy.

Is out of control. So whatever they had left of her after the acid and the garbage disposal and all that shit, they stored in garbage bags in a freezer. Okay. So over the next four months. Grossom. She tries to figure out ways to get rid of this. She asks her friends, hey, can you get rid of a body part? Like, if I give you a bag of meat, can you just bury it deep into your like woods or something and

literally she's asking people this she's like andy dufresne sprinkling a handful of dirt in the yard here a little bit there this is crazy i'm gonna tuck a little bit of stepmom in her in her girdle and just go shake her out at the park that's right so eric who's in the navy enlists his navy friend to help him what the let's bring as many people into this conspiracy as humanly possible tell everybody except the cops so they bring douglas menkel into this mix here he's 21 at the time he's eric's navy buddy him and eric travel to indiana and then on the way back to San Diego where they're stationed, they're going to get rid of the body parts. That's the plan.

We can throw some out the window here, a little out the window there. They picked up a cooler filled with body parts. Oh, God. And dropped them off along the way back to California. Hey, come back with me to Indiana. How come I can meet my family? Oh, you know what? Also, we're going to dispose of my grandmother's body parts

along the way what do you say we'll drive back grab the other end of this coleman and throw it as if that's not a hell drive enough without having to dispose of body parts so they did this shit it contained the ice chest mankel will later say the ice chest contained various black garbage bags the pro he'll later be asked if he noticed anything unusual about the bags, and he said, quote, yes, it had a lot of white worms on it and some small flying black bugs. Oh, Jesus, gross. Maggots and fucking flies from the maggots.

So they've developed into flies. That's how long this has been going on. That's a guy that's in the Navy. He's in the Navy he's in the navy white worms and black flying bugs let's hope he's not let's hope he's not in charge of he's mopping let's hope a lot of things let's hope he's not like in the computer systems or doing anything with like you know gps or coordinates or missiles or anything like that so that man took an igloo full of flies and maggots and threw them out along the way.

Drove around the country with it. Over 2,500 miles or so, sprinkled Elaine along the way. So May 1984, three, four months, five months have gone by now. Finally, Elaine's neighbors are tired of like trying to, they've asked where she is. Oh, she's on vacation. We don't know when she'll be back. So in 84, May of 84, one of her neighbors contacts the police department and they said the police said, quote, the neighbor indicated he had seen or he had seen Elaine out in the yard tending to her flowers. But now he hadn't seen her for a period of months.

So the police perform a welfare check. Marie answers the door. Hi, how you doing? Oh, Maria, she went on a welfare check. Marie answers the door. Hi, how you doing? Oh, Maria, she went on a long vacation. She's been her whole life waiting for this vacation. Elaine, she waited for her 70s to really see the world. Well, she can do it now, so she's ready to do it. The cop said she said Elaine was traveling, that she was visiting Marie's son who was in the Navy, and that she didn't know when she'd be coming back.

So she told a morbid truth there. Yikes. Oh, yeah. So holidays, birthdays, all sorts of times pass when you would normally see her. Police inquire every once in a while, hey, Elaine home yet? And Marie would go, nope, not home yet. Sorry. That's it so uh local

police finally contact the state police and go maybe you can press something here yeah and uh the one cop who was involved in the state police was the same detective who talked to them about dad uh-huh and he recognized the name and he said, hold on a second here. Someone got shot while they were sleeping in Marie Witte's house? I don't like that at all. So they ran Elaine's VIN numbers on her car and learned that Marie had recently sold Elaine's car. Oh. Yeah, she sold it.

And her phone record showed no long-distance calls coming in or out of Elaine's home also. Uh-oh. She's not checking in, not going anywhere. And then they said, quote, bank accounts showed large withdrawals in the period of time from the beginning of January when she disappeared up until May or June of 84. She had Social Security checks that were coming in on a monthly basis and they were still being cashed locally. So, yeah, not not great at all. So, yeah, not great at all. So they said that altogether Marie took in Social Security checks more than 11.

She took more than $11,000 from two savings accounts and a checking account and also stole some of her furniture as well. Now, when people start demanding to know where she is, Marie just takes off, grabs Butch, throws him in the car and moves to California where she is marie just takes off grabs butch throws him in the car and moves to california where eric is eric goes awol from the navy to try to figure this out which yeah i had a friend who started half his stories with so i was awol from the navy right and you'd go this is going to be a good story you know what i mean you know it's gonna be fun if we start i was already a criminal yeah so i'm a wall from the navy and these guy he was from philly he was hilarious this guy i'm a wall from the navy and uh he cracked me up so um that's not great so the cops are trying to contact marie but then they learn that she took off with butch and they're like okay but marcy's left behind so they pressure marcy they really put the fucking screws to marcy finally marcy cracks and says elaine's dead okay fine so um the cop said

quote marie's mother said that she had been told that butch had accidentally shot and killed elaine with a crossbow so marcy then tells the detectives that they're like, well, then where where is she then? And they said, well, Marcy said, well, Marie and Butch dismembered her and disposed of her. And they're like, OK, this is more than an accident. Right. They go to California to interview Eric. Eric is confronted with his grandmother's confession. And he said, OK, fine. My mom told me that Butch killed my grandmother. Fine. Oh god damn it.

The cop said. Marie told him it was an accident. And she needed help. Eric said he told her to freeze the body. Until he could come home. Freeze her. I'll help you get rid of it. Turn her to ice.

I'll take care of it. So November 7th, 84. Finally. After 11 months. Marie and Butch are finally arrested. In Chula Vista, California. After she cashed one of Elaine's Social Security checks. They were preparing to go to Mexico. They had all their shit there.

They were going to Mexico. They were on their way out of the country. That's how they were caught. And, yep, Marie, Eric, and Butch are charged with forgery at first. Yeah. Marie refuses to cooperate. Butch is 15. He gives a full confession.

Everything. Everything, yeah. I'm dumb. Also made a statement concerning Paul's death as well because it's not – yeah. He says, my brother killed my father because my mother told him to, by the way, also. They said that they were asking him about the whereabouts of his grandmother and the cop said john witty just blurted it all out he said quote he wanted to get it off his chest and he did it voluntarily he indicated that he had to tell someone that he could not sleep and he wanted to get it out you know yeah but that hurts he's a child with a conscience maybe that's

all who shot his grandmother with a crossbow it It's going to be easy to spill that. I don't want to wear that forever. And he said, my mother was cashing her checks, and she thought that she would get caught and get kicked out. So she told me we had to kill her, and we tried to poison her, and that didn't work. And so he said, Mom said I could use my crossbow. I could strangle her. I mean, the cops are like, holy shit. Hair blowing back on their heads

there um they said um the one uh cop said he wanted to talk about the murder of his dad he gave us a story about eric that marie had also manipulated eric into killing paul and that it wasn't an accident um marie said that he had to kill his dad or he had to he had to kill his dad because she was suffering abuse by him. Also, he was threatening divorce. And if they went through a divorce, they'd be out in the street. Yeah. Also, she spent the money for the Thomasville and now he's going to be mad.

Yeah. So then, exactly. That's the other problem. So then Eric admits it's true and police confront him with all of this. And that's when they just have the conflicting stories of was it over a dog, bat who got hit who didn't but either way intentional so um they they're now they process eric through the system here um and also marcy makes a statement saying um you know yes i also knew about the paul's death and all that kind of shit so that you know helps that a lot and uh it's a lot so they return them to indiana and obviously after by the way the social security shit's federal so yeah that's federal fraud

they're being charged in san diego and federally with all that shit and then all the murder in indiana oh boy so uh when before she gets back the police said when hilma marie gets back here we plan to charge her with murder and attempted murder in conjunction with the death of elaine and we will also charge eric with conspiracy to commit murder again in the death of elaine even though john was the one that pulled the trigger so uh they said they're also uh they plan to charge marcy um with attempted murder in paul's deal too so they are returned to Indiana from San Diego. They're being held without bond. Eric's being held on $1 million bond.

Good Lord. She's arraigned on account of murder and account of attempted murder. Marie is. No plea entered yet. They end up giving her a bond. She's not held without bond. A surety bond of $200,000 was set for her, which means she has to raise $20,000 or show proof of cash or property worth $200,000 before she can get bonded out. The prosecution didn't fight it out of concern that the defense would request a hearing on the evidence, and that would involve questioning all 45 witnesses that they lined up and basically giving away their whole case before they make it.

So they were like, fine, let them do it because they didn't think she could raise the money anyway. She doesn't have this fucking money. The only way she had money was stealing. And murdering people and getting life insurance. So Eric is charged with conspiracy to

commit murder in the death of Elaine and he pleads guilty to that. Really? He's going to to that really he's going to plead guilty john's going to plead guilty young butch to voluntary manslaughter in conjunction with elaine's death and uh he's going to also testify in the trials as well fascinating prosecutor states that he will ask for the death penalty for marie really she had children murder sleeping people for profit this you like if you have the death penalty for Marie. Really? She had children murder sleeping people for profit. If you have the death penalty in your state, that's definition of death penalty. Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating that she didn't do it

and she's going to get the death penalty when the boys, but they probably would have been up for it too, right? Not the 15-year-old. I think it's, yeah, they were both 15 when it happened. So you're not going to kill her children. So that's crazy. There's a big thing about a media blackout. The prosecution wants no media in the court at all.

And the media ends up winning that battle here. Now, during the trial for Elaine, jurors in here are going to hear all about they're going to hear all about paul's murder because she pleads guilty to that really marie pleads guilty in paul's death she's fucked in that one so she pleads guilty the other one's much more gruesome it is and that's the one she thinks she can get away with because she said there's no evidence tying her to it okay so that's very interesting they're going to bring in the information about Paul, and they're saying that the two deaths are too similar to be coincidental. Right.

She had a 15-year-old son murder someone while they were sleeping. Twice. Twice. So the judge agreed and allowed testimony about Paul's murder to be let in because they were so close. Too much. Too much to say. She's convicted of forgery by the U.S. District Court in San Diego before she was returned.

So she's got that overhang hanging over her head throughout the three week long trial. She maintained through her defense attorney. She had nothing to do with the slaying itself. They said it was planned out and carried out by her son as well as her other two sons did it and even her own mother. It was a triangle of bad people that were set up against her. And now they're all blaming her, you know, because she's mom. So her mom, Marcy, gets on the stand and details the dismembering process, which is a terrible thing for Marie. Which is a terrible thing for Marie.

She then the cross-examination isn't about that, about the dismemberment, but all about Marie's mom and how she's a drunk. That's all it is. She repeatedly was asked whether her admitted drinking bouts affected her memory surrounding the events of that night. And she said that she did remain, quote, loaded much of the time in the weeks that followed the slaying. She said, my memory is as faulty as anyone else's, and I would not say it's from the alcohol. Okay. You remember dismemberments, though, I feel like. Yeah.

Especially if it's your first, right? You don't know how loaded I was. Yeah. So during, she's found guilty, by the way, of killing Elaine, obviously, her sons and mother are all testifying against her. Not good. She has nothing to stand on. Nope. So during the sentencing, here's the closings here.

The prosecutor says, quote, We're talking about a cold, calculating, vicious conjuring of a plan and waiting until this senior citizen was at her weakest moment lying in her bed. She, meaning Marie, has not repented. She has no remorse, and she has shown no remorse. And they're asking for the maximum sentence. I guess the death penalty isn't flying here because she didn't actually do it. So the maximum is 110 years in prison is what they're going for.

Oh, fuck. May as well be death. Yep, the defense in their closing said, well, they were way more lenient with the other people involved in the crime. So Marie should be lenient also. They said that, you know, they got plea agreements and all this. So the sentencing comes around. Okay. For her.

This is all at once. I'll give you for her forgery. Federal shit. Ten years in federal prison for that. Okay. Now, then she will federal prison for that. Okay. Now, then she will serve, you, ma'am, may fuck off, 90 years for the murder of Elaine.

Okay. 90 years to be served consecutively with 50 years for Paul's murder. She's got 160 years right now. So, yeah. So, so far, she's's got 150 50 plus 90 plus 10 150 years imprisonment facing her here um her earliest parole at that point would be 2061 when she is 112 years old so that's not good she'll get that reduced some though later on

the defense attorney said we're obviously disappointed in the verdict, but we have no animosity for anyone. We did the best we could. They said, will you appeal? We did the best we could. I mean, it just, both her kids and her mom was testifying against her. It looks bad. It just looks bad.

We swung back. We really did but man it didn't work they said will you appeal he goes we probably will like i mean we'll find some more shit yeah and uh his by his his partner in the trial his you know the other defense attorney said you know it wasn't he said quote we had a good jury it just i don't know it didn't work it's not our day it was the jury we wanted you know sometimes he said, quote, we had a good jury. It just, I don't know, it didn't work out. It's just not our day. It was the jury we wanted. You know, sometimes you practice all week, and then game day you go out there, you throw an interception. It happens.

They were hungry. They wanted it more. Got to be ready next week, you know, any given Sunday. You know what I'm saying? So the prosecutor said he was elated with the jury's decision, and he was going to ask for the maximum sentence and got it. And he wants it all to run consecutivelyively and he's so happy that it will so the rest of these people sentencing uh marcy mom here she'll serve concurrent sentences of five years for assisting a criminal in the elaine's death and six years on the same count in paul's death so she could get

out in three years or less. Yeah. Okay. Menkel, the Navy friend who drove from Indiana to fucking California, tossing grandma out. Being the most disgusting Johnny Appleseed in the history of the world. Johnny Maggot Seed over here. He got a plea bargain and he got a sentence of time served in the county jail while waiting to testify against Marie. They said, with your testimony, we'll give you time served. He handled body parts. You came in well after the fact, though. You are a psychopath, and we're concerned about that.

We're going to keep an eye on you. You're probably going to get discharged. I think we're going to kick you out of the Navy probably. So Eric will serve a four-year federal sentence for assisting in the Social Security scam. That will run concurrently with five years he receives in LaPorte County in the aftermath of Elaine's death. And then 20 years for killing his father. Oh, he's in a lot of trouble. But he could be out in 10, apparently. Now, John got 20 years for voluntary manslaughter.

He could be paroled in eight or nine years because of good time awards during his stay in the jail and his youth and all that shit. Holy. Yes. So this is a fucking mess. By the way, Menkel served 422 days in jail while awaiting to testify so he did

do over a year in jail a year and seven days that's you know a year almost a year and a half almost two years so that's not that's something um a year and change anyway so eric is also going to get he's got a lot of problems here he's um obviously he did a voluntary manslaughter for his dad. He's in there. Elaine's estate, by the way, gets assigned to a local attorney to figure out here. It's appraised to be worth $60,000, her house, but it was sold at auction for $26,750. Oh, my God. And they did that. And then also the sale of personal property, including a Sears upright freezer, jewelry, a hutch and a lawnmower netted another eight hundred thirty seven dollars and sixty eight cents. A lawnmower.

Sixty thousand dollars and eight hundred dollars in property. Yep. Then they deducted some some fees for delinquent property taxes and damage done during a police search and all this type of shit and then all the money in the end uh 16 625 and 24 cents from everything was given to the uh was given to the school fund the state school fund so the common state school fund everything that she worked for for an entire life boiled down to $16,000. $16,000 and getting some new kickballs down at the old playground. 1987, Marie appeals the Paul conviction. Basically, they have to fix her sentencing. They said her sentencing is off because they sentenced her too harshly based on a bunch of legal factors

that we don't have time for right now. Affirmed everything, knocked her sentence down a little bit. We'll talk about that. 1990 appeal for Elaine's case, that's affirmed. Go fuck yourself. Nobody cares about that. Now, Marcy ended up serving six years for

her role in the murder. She did all of her time. And then she died shortly after serving her time. Oh, Jesus. Which, I mean, you know. 1996, Eric and John are both released. Eric and Butch are both sent home in 96. 2008, at the not even 40 years old, John dies from complications of diabetes. Is that right?

Yes. It's like a curse now. They're all doing it. Eric ended up. It's a real Stephen King book. It is. They're all going down. This didn't happen in Maine.

Eric gets married and has a family, actually. Then in 2022, just last year, he dies at age 56. Did his son kill him? We can only hope that his son shot him while he slept on an old couch that's all we can hope now marie marie remains in prison she's in the indiana women's prison here um her sentence uh her projected release date which is april 15th 2027 she could be out in four years four years everybody and that is trail creek indiana and one fucking hell of a story i don't want to hear anybody saying that was bland because it goddamn wasn't that was crazy that's so fucked up that's a fucked up story about a really asshole of a lady i really hope that woman wow

yeah i really hope that woman does all the way to 2027 gets out and dies the fucking that would be amazing that would be yeah incredible paul i'll give you paul yeah maybe he's beating you doing all the old lady wasn't beating you so what's your excuse for her yeah get the fuck out of here so there you go there's that if you like that show tell the world it helps a lot when you give a review on whatever podcast app you're listening to it really helps the show helps drive us up the charts it costs you nothing but nothing 30 seconds of your time so thank you for doing that and please do that head over to shut up and give me murder.com everything small town murder and crime and sports is there, including new merchandise. All sorts of good stuff. Tickets to live shows.

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which you get access to, owners that have done fucked up shit. So, owner criminals. There there's plenty of those assholes you don't get to be a billionaire you know by doing nice things to people yeah so owner criminals and then for small town murder it's love after lockup time oh boy finally back love after lockup we can't wait to catch you up on the last six months of these disastrous lives. This group. Jesus. Want to feel better about yourself? Yeah.

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there. Links to everything. Links to this. Links to that. Links up your ass. Let's do it. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wond. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott

noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle in theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened.

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