Small Town Murder - #418 - The Stranger & The Psychic - Scarborough, Maine

Episode Date: September 1, 2023

This week, in Scarborough, Maine, a missing young woman sends the area into a panic, but things get even worse, when she's found. The investigation reveals some strange facts, but it comes down to being between three different suspects, her ex-boyfriend, a guy who is interested in her, and a man with gel in his hair, who she spoke with at a night club. In the end, a psychic ends up having all the answers to this mystery, while the murderer goes on the run!!Along the way, we find out that some people can even complain about the ocean, that sometimes being very nervous can make you look like a liar, and that you apparently can't always count a psychic out!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay! And choo-choo! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host.

I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us all aboard the murder train for a wild story today about a very, very bad person, which could describe most Small Town Murder episodes. Quickly, before we start, though, just want to say, first first of all thanks for everything thank you you guys are awesome head over to shut up and give me murder.com what's there first of all tickets for live shows oh september the 8th atlanta september the 9th charlotte dallas uh december 2nd get those and we have a virtual live show oh boy we've announced october the 26th is the virtual live show. And then it'll be Halloween weekend. It's going to be Halloween themed.

We're going to dress up. It'll be fun. And it'll be available for a week after that as well. Tickets for that go on sale September 1st. Shut up and give me murder dot com slash virtual live. So get in there. And another big, exciting announcement. Your stupid opinions. Our new podcast where we will make fun of all things reviews on the Internet, people's bad, stupid opinions.

That is coming out September 18th. It's a Monday. It will be out Monday morning and it will be out every Monday morning after that. So check that out. And you definitely also want Patreon. Oh, yeah. Or Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you get all of the bonus material. A mere cup of coffee.

One cup of coffee the whole month. You can have a cup of coffee or anybody $5 a month or above on ours. You get a whole back catalog, couple hundred bonus episodes to binge. New ones every other week. One Crime and Sports, one Small Town Murder. You get it all. This week is no different. This week what you're going to get for crime and sports we're going to talk about something very fun the history of celebrity boxing matches oh fantastic when you

get like a sitcom star and some washed up pop singer and they want to and they're going to fight each other with oversized gloves and people are going to put that on television why we'll talk about that and some of the dumbest ones of all time and then of course that's going to be fun and then for small town murder we're going to talk about something very fun weird and different we're going to take a little left turn we're going to talk about about victorian household dangers okay because there's a lot of them in the late 1800s especially people not even know in your house people bathrooms would explode on a regular basis probably because osha wasn't around when they built the fucking thing you're gonna die in your

bathroom back then we'll talk about how you explode in your bathroom and several other everything had strychnine in it we'll talk all about it that is patreon.com slash crime and sports and you'll get a shout out at the end of the regular show as well because damn it we appreciate you that said i think it's time. That said, I think it's time, everybody, to sit back. I think it's time to clear the lungs, all of us here, and get ready and hands to the sky, and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder.

Let's do this, Jimmy. Terrific. Let's go on a trip, everybody right here we go we're going all the way to maine uh we like maine don't we maine is good stuff we really do we like we like maine i want to be a mainer that's what they're called yeah they are oh yeah i know and i know we're no we we all that's the funny you guys don't this, but we send houses back and forth in Maine. Jimmy and me and Sarah and Emily, all the four of us are like, look at these houses. We are going to end up in Maine someday.

The only place you'll be able to find us is some little tiny comedy club that we've opened up with 100 seats that also sells lobsters because that's what we want to eat. And it won't be called anything silly. So you won't even know that it might be the Lobster Hut. You don don't know you don't know but we're gonna go in there and we're gonna perform here we don't care if anyone shows up that's gonna be us so this is scarborough main oh and it's southern main as we'll talk about about 15 minutes outside of portland main so that's how you find that it's about an hour south of yeah it's about an hour 35 to boston it's commutable from boston yes so it's expensive uh it's five hours to caribou main which is our last main episode the psycho samurai that's a fun episode you got to check that out it's up in

it's in cumberland county population here 21,857 is this town it's up check this out up 27 percent since 2020 god damn it people are finding out in three years that they went there because it's a it's a suburb of maine or of boston you can commute to boston so damn it we have to move outside of that commute distance we're moving up toward bangor we're up there. I'm telling you, we'll find it. Median household income here is high. That's what I mean. It's all people that have good, high-paying jobs in Boston. $105,960 is the median household income.

Almost double the national average. And they need it because median home cost here, $562,900. Oh, Jesus. A little bit high. That's the problem here. Because it's on the southern coast of Maine. You've got to get north. There's the beaches there.

This is the most populous town in Maine. It's the most populous place. It's not a city. It's a town still. So most populous town in Maine. A little bit of history here. Most of the history is people would come here, try to settle it. Natives would kill

most of them. The rest would run away. They'd come back with more people and they'd get, the natives would kill most of them and then they'd run away. This happened like five times over like 150 years. They kept trying and it wasn't working. It just wasn't working.

They kept having to go to Boston and then come back. So that's pretty much the history of the place. Otherwise, it's a nice place to sit on the beach, and I'm sure you can eat some clams and lobsters. Wonderful. Let's talk about some reviews of this place. Is there anything to complain about? We'll find out. Here we go.

Five stars. Here we go. Scarborough is a great town to live in. It is a growing community with the best of both worlds, sandy beaches or rocky ocean shore. A nice drive in the countryside or the mountains an hour away. God damn it. Sold. Yeah.

Shit. Fuck. Four stars. Here we go. Scarborough is a very safe suburban town. There are great beaches and trails to walk on. There, I guess that's R-not, not and. A little misspelling here.

There are not a lot of restaurants, and there isn't really a town center. There is a very wealthy and well-known school district. Yeah. Well-known, huh? I loved everything right up until that wealthy part. That scares me. It's like, oh, no, I can't. That'll run me out.

I can't go there. Yeah, I can't afford that. So here's three stars. I'm not actively involved in local politics. OK, but oftentimes there's a big hullabaloo. I love that word. The first time anyone's used hullabaloo in a review we've ever done. There's a big hullabaloo about a law about to be passed locally and then there's a bunch of people with signs and things

to promote their side it happens more than it should probably though yeah there's called elections there's an election to see if you want to pass this law and then people say i think you should pass and they go i think you should then they have an election it's called democracy that's how it works i feel like me and this person would get along really well no i don't want to see the signs either but i don't understand what they're doing i understand what's happening yeah right i'm not the one i'm not putting a sign up but i go oh i see what these people are doing having a democracy i get it i don't understand their side or their side how about this sign, not 45 on your lawn.

That's where I draw the line. There you go. One sign. That's fine. That tells me everything. And I don't even really want to know. So that's the other problem. Don't even care.

I'm minding my business over here. That's your business. Here's two stars. I love this one. I think the info on this site needs updating. Sure, the schools are ranked to be well-performing, but the town hasn't increased services at the rate it's allowed growth.

Because of that, schools are overcrowded now and budgets to be better the schools and library, that's exactly what it says, have not been historically passed by much of a margin. The town is far behind in updating much of what the community uses. Sure, there are beaches, but the parking there is also crowded yeah that's you're complaining beach you're complaining i mean sure there's the ocean and the beach and it's beautiful but i mean you have to look for

a parking spot for a minute and a half sometimes i have to walk to it i mean i have to walk places you know what else happens i get sand in my stuff all the time i'll go there i'll come back sand in my shoes it's weird pain in the ass can't get it out it's the beach damn it they complain about sand on the beach that's wow so and parking and fucking yes wow it's a place everyone wants to go. I can't imagine why it's not. It's literally the best place in town to be and everybody's always there. It's annoying. I've been there all the time.

Things to do, Scarborough Summerfest. Oh boy. Yeah. Their 26th year here. It's happening like right now. There's a bigger than ever kids bounce zone. Yikes. The event celebrates community by bringing people together in person.

Something that is simple, needed, but difficult in today's world. That's what it says. The festival organizer here. Let's see what they have to say. I think it's important to do this in this day and age because we're all connected in some way, but it seems to be more digitally. So we're going to gonna have this kids in a in a bounce house the country band 12 slash oc 12 oc 12 slash oc it's all crammed together not two separate words ounces and cents what are the i don't know i don't know what that means but

it says whose members are three brothers and a drummer from Portland. Three drummers and three brothers and a guy from Portland. They'll be performing. They should have called it that. That makes more sense than 12OC. Three brothers and a drummer from Portland. I get it. I'd go watch it.

Because I'm like, 1-2-slash-OC? Is this some sort of like, did they fuck up and we're putting computer code on here? It's like a DOS dos startup what's happening here um and then there's the scarborough summer fest cornhole tournament which you also definitely want to be a part of and uh they're gonna have throughout the year lots of they have a live animal show at one point in town okay i think the animals strip a little bit they dance it's sexy. It's better than the dead animal show. That would be, yeah, a marionette of dead animals. Roadkill.

It's roadkill theater, everyone. That would be sad. Raccoon with a smashed head. That'd be perfect. Jesus. Just getting jerked around by the wires. That's horrible, isn't it? But with the full costume on

because they're playing a part. It's a musical. This is Oklahoma, Jimmy. I mean, we're going to sing and dance. This is South Pacific. It's going to be an old-timey musical. Reenactment of Rent. Speaking of depressing, let's talk about a murder here.

All right. Let's talk about some murder because this is a thick one. We've got to get into this. Let's go to 2001 here. All right. 2001. So not too far back. No.

It's the internet and cell phones. Yeah. There's a pre or post. This is 2001. So there's still internet. Yeah, yeah. There's a pre or post. It's dial up.

Yeah. I mean, it's pre or post. There's a pre or post, James. We're out in the year. Oh, no. We'll talk about that. Okay. We'll start out before and then okay it will go right to after like it's that matters tremendously this is all within

everything that happens is within a month of 9-11 too that's the other thing here so yeah that's that that actually has plays a part in this so not in terms of like a building fall on anybody or anything but you know what i mean okay so 2001 amy saint laurent okay uh we'll talk about her she's 25 amy is at this time and uh amy grew up in new hampshire and then moved to south portland when her mother and father divorced and um her sister uh she she and her sister lived with her mom and her stepfather there and she also would hang out with her father as well

so she had a nice childhood she's very active and very smart and very like she's a doer you know what I mean she would ski she's a skier she was on the 5th grade jump roping team team in a jump roping team.

Wow. Remember girls in elementary school who could jump rope like crazy. Whoa. That's why I never thought of having a team for it though. I know. I mean, you'd see it outside at like recess. That was the team.

And it wasn't formal. They didn't have like uniforms or anything. Yeah. When I was a kid, double Dutch had it had a day. Oh, they'd go crazy for that. It grew.

It, it, there was like two or three years in school that double Dutch was a real like oh they'd go crazy for that it grew it there was like two or three years in school that yeah double dutch was a real thing they were doing crazy shit in new york that was a big deal i was like there was girls they do the thing to run up the wall and all that yeah jesus christ you guys are out of your minds yeah impressive stuff so um she does all these she runs track all these athletic things and then when's 13, her doctor diagnoses her with, and I didn't know a person could get this. I thought only like a golden retriever could get this, but hip dysplasia.

Is that right? Yeah, that's like if you have a big dog, you worry about that. I never thought about a 13-year-old girl having hip dysplasia. German Shepherds, yeah. Yeah, so yeah, my dad's German Shepherd had it. So by the time she was 16 she had two surgeries she was in a body cast for a long time had to do months of physical therapy but it it came under control though and she was able to she worked it out yeah she's able to live a normal life a lot

of work though and it was it was tough here uh her friend her best friend katie says how amy was just hilarious even through her surgery she was very bright and yeah which i don't know how you'd be if you're in a body cast and your hip is fucked up pain all day right i'd be i'd be a grumpy asshole man oh i'd be so grumpy just leave me alone okay i don't want to talk about it so she said they were um you know they they used to write notes and secret codes in class in case the teachers confiscated them. I like that. That's fun.

If you make up your own language, it's kind of interesting. I like your style. If you're saying shit that has to be coded as to keep it from other people, that's pretty rad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of it was about boys. But what she did say, quote quote this is her friend we would laugh for hours it wasn't typical high school stuff it wasn't just makeup or boys so that's good she has a boyfriend who we're going to talk about here who yeah the names that we have had

on this show people's given legal names that we don't even have to are wild zero forethought zero zero forethought this week the last uh episode we did the last express we had a doctor named dr richard worst his name was dick worst which is bad this guy tops it though this girl's boyfriend so amy graduates from south portland high school in 1994 she graduates with honors she's very smart but she wasn't didn't feel like going to college really her mother yeah her mother says she high school was easy and kind of boring and i think she thought college was going to be more of the same didn't want to sit in the classroom she wanted to do stuff so she moved out and got a job instead moved out of the parents house um now she's almost 20 and she meets another 19 year old boy which is good he's not like 38 that's

helpful his name jimmy and everyone out there listening on small tap brace yourselves richard swallow no his name is dick swallow i swear to god his name is dick swallow dick swallow really with me he's 19 in fucking the late so in the 70s his parents didn't know not to name in 1979 his parents didn't go the kids won't call him dick swallow right they didn't think about that are they from another country like what the there's no fucking excuse for why you would do that to your poor child. What did, what did Richard Swallow Sr. do? Because he had, that's the only reason to name somebody that, is if, if they're, whoever they're named after did something fucking amazing.

Did Dick Swallow invent gravity? Or discover it, I guess. I think he cured polio i believe it was fucking better have jonah salk just knocked him over and took what he had in his hand but it was i believe that this is i believe he's the guy that took it over so you have to name your grandson after him but did tesla rip him off and then he was ripped off by franklin yeah i think that's what happened here so yep dicks she falls in love with dick swallow which is a crazy sentence to say with a complete straight face and absolutely meaning it 100

she fell in love with young dick swallow because she's got a trapper keeper and she's writing mrs dick swallow mrs dick swallow where do you hear what his friend's name is this i it's the two of them together should never be in the same room together because of their names. We'll talk about it. So they fall in love. They move in together in a little apartment, which they're 19. So Christ, I had like a 480 square foot apartment when I was 19. So I get it.

She was working at the Dunkin' Donuts on Broadway as it is the law in New England. Sometime between the ages of 16 and 20, you must do at least a couple of months at a dunkin donuts you either work there or you patronize it but that is your penance some countries have like you know you have to have military service yeah it's conscription and all that this is the same thing in new england you have to do a few shifts at the Dunkin'. You have to. Friends said that she knew she was smarter and her end potential wasn't Dunkin' Donuts clerk and she knew that.

Her friends said she didn't want the menial life. She wanted more than that. She found a job at Pratt & Whitney, which is a big plant in North Berwick. She worked overnight, the overnight shift making jet engine parts. Wow. Yeah.

At 20? At 19, 20, yeah. Wow. And then she worked her way up to be in an administrative position. So she's not on the line and she's working when it's daylight and she, you know, is working in an office. If that makes you feel more comfortable about getting on a fucking plane. Yes. A 19-year-old built this shit.

A 19-year-old built that little fan in the engine. So by then, they're living in a two-bedroom apartment with Dick Swallow. It's her, Dick Swallow, and a big, black, long-haired cat named Alex. That's the little family she's got going on. Yeah, it's fun. She wants to save her money up for a down payment on's a little family she's got going on yeah it's fun she wants to save her money up for a down payment on a house yeah so she's all excited here then here in mid-2001 amy and dick swallow break up what happened i believe she realized his name was dick swallow

and then she broke up with him probably and said i'm not not going to be Mrs. Dick Swallow. I'm not going to be Amy Swallow. That's just too easy. He said their interests just changed. They're kids. Kids grow up and away from each other. What's that? She's probably a little more ambitious, it sounds. She's out there building jet engines, for Christ's sake. And he even said she wanted to be a career woman and wanted to do a lot.

And he said that he was content. He wanted to sit on the couch and watch TV. I wanted to be a career woman and wanted to do a lot, and he said that he was content. He wanted to sit on the couch and watch TV. I wanted to be 19. He said, quote, I couldn't keep up with her. Literally, she's just too much. Makes sense. We'd reached a stalemate. To better each other's lives, we had to leave each other.

So at least they realized that this isn't working anymore. There wasn't any kind of acrimony or they didn't hate each other afterwards. They actually remained friends. Beautiful. They just realized, oh, we're not good for this. We like each other, but we're not compatible anymore. She also had some dreams of modeling a bit here. Is that right?

She's very pretty. She's a really pretty girl, blonde hair and proportionate. She's a pretty girl. She really is. blonde hair and you know proportionate and you know she's a pretty girl she really is so she wanted to she spent a whole bunch of money to have photos taken by a photography place in portland you know for her whatever you call it portfolio or whatever there um she's there's a few of them here where she's one where she's like in this dark dress and all being all sultry and shit they look good though i mean she looked like she could have done it i guess um she wanted to go to florida here she had feelings for a kid from high school that she

liked and he moved down to florida his name's jason calais so in late september 2001 pretty much it had to have been right when planes started flying again because it was less than two weeks after 9-11 yeah she flew down through the smoke plume yeah she's flying down to florida so um i guess she wanted to visit this jason and jason has a two-year-old son as well at this point she's going to visit them um friends say he introduced her i don't think he was feeling it or something because instead he introduced her to a neighbor of his hey you want to hang out with this guy he'll end up coming we'll talk about this but he'll end up coming and hanging out and at one point she's hanging out with dick swallow and this man and his name is eric i couldn't make it up rub right so if you rub right he'll dick swallow and then you're gonna be great rub right and dick swallow

they cannot hang out that sounds like a law firm in a porn movie right it's rub right and swallow rub right and swallow you'd go and it'd be two like hot chicks sitting there like what's your case you know two hot blonde ladies would be ready to take your case before they tear off their business suit and blow you jesus christ let me give you an initial consultation and just rub right and swallow that is the best porn law firm ever right swallow but that's who she's talking to rub right and swallow here yeah so rub right that's who's that's the neighbor she uh rub right and and amy went to the beach and talked about music they took a ride on his motorcycle oh right he's got a motorcycle how florida is this oh my god it's so florida right a motorcycle

down to the beach come on his motorcycle's like a dirt bike, though, probably. Why, it's Florida. A 125. Yeah, ring, ring. If you sit on the back, you got to carry the boom box. Yeah, I don't have an extra helmet either, sorry. She's like, that's all right, just sand in her mouth. Here, put this baseball cap on backwards. Yeah, you'll be all right.

Just keep your hair together. baseball cap on backwards yeah you'll be all right let's keep your hair together so rub right said he dug her he was into her found her hot and attractive and everything but amy made it clear that we're just going to be friends okay he tried to you know he was like hey and she's like well i just like as a friend not any like that date a guy on a yamaha 250 yeah you can't do that so amy went back home to maine and rub right called her a little while later, a couple of weeks later and said, I'm coming north. Do you mind if I stay with you for a couple of days? That's as a friend, not anything weird or anything. You got a couch, a couch I can crash on at this point.

So she, I guess, told her friend she was a little bit hesitant about it because this is some guy she barely knows, the neighbor of a guy she liked in high school who she hung out with once, and he likes her and she doesn't really dig. So is that the guy you're going to invite to sleep in your house probably? Yeah, that's a bit weird. So Rub Wright rented a car and arrived in Maine on Thursday. Drove it? Drove it. Drove it up from Florida. Oh, my gosh.

Fucking there he goes. He rented a car, gets there October 18th. The next night, it was Amy, Rubbright, and Swallow all had a lobster dinner at her apartment. Wow. Swallow said he wanted to meet Rubbright. He's like, I got to meet this guy. We're meant to know each other. He literally said he wanted to meet Rob Wright. He's like, I got to meet this guy. We're meant to know each other. He literally said he wanted to know her.

We're meant to know each other. He said, I got to know this guy. I'm not even kidding, though. It's unbelievable. We're meant to know each other. He said, I was concerned about her having some guy she'd only known for a short time come up and visit her. So Swallow and Rob Wright stayed in her apartment. Swallow's going to up and visit her. So Swallow and Rub Wright stayed in her apartment. Swallow's going to

keep guard on her. Really? Yeah, make sure he doesn't rub it too right. Swallow stayed on the couch, Rub Wright in the second bedroom. So everybody sleeps in their own quarters. She's doing fantastic. She's still got the two bedroom from when Swallow was there. So

around 9 a.m. saturday here amy and rub right drove to boston where they spent the day at the museum of fine arts and they went to some other museum and you know doing boston shit touristy shit swallow called her around 11 a.m on her cell phone to tell her that he bought tickets to an ozzy osbourne concert hell yeah got some ozzy tickets fuck yeah fucking rock on coming to boston let's go let's do it and he wanted to make sure that you're still okay and rub right hasn't like thrown you into the ocean yet so so he's saying i'm gonna go you guys stay here is he bringing her no no he's just telling her he bought tickets to a future ozzy osbourne concert

and he's saying i know you're hanging out with Rub Right. Is everything okay? Is he, you know, has he tried to kill you or anything? So I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx. And I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts.

In May of 1980 near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app

or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Now, Rub Right said Amy wanted to show him the nightlife in Portland, Maine. So they left Boston and drove to the old port here uh that's the place it's a bar or whatever arriving about 10 30 p.m on the way amy called her mother to ask if she wanted to join them for a drink oh very nice and diane her mother said no thank you she

you know it was 10 30 at night she's already in so october 21st 2001 this is uh rub right uh it says he and amy are shooting pool at the four play sports bar for like golf you know four plays little little and it's on four street also so it's a little play on words there buddy she's gonna bring rub right and Swallow to the foreplay. This is weird. Amy ran into two men she seemed to know, is what Rub Right will say later. And he said

that she hugged them, but she did not introduce them to him. So he doesn't know who they were. At midnight, they went to the Pavilion, which is a dance club on Middle Street, and Rub Right said at that place they ran into the same two guys. a dance club on middle street and rub right said at that place they ran into the same two guys again a couple few minutes later they came in and whatever and she he said amy danced with them for a while you know one and then the other and was dancing

with them friends of hers so rub right said i don't know if she knew him knew them from work or who the hell knows i don't know what the hell she knows she went to you know when she worked at dunkin donuts she could go know anybody. He said Amy had had a few beers over the course of the night, but was pretty sober. She wasn't drunk. They were spaced out. She's a New England girl. She can handle it.

She can handle a couple of beers. She's 25 years old and from Maine. She can handle a couple of beers. But not only that, she said they'd have a drink, then she'd dance for a while, and they're spaced out. You work it off. Yeah. Last call here was around 12.30 a.m. Jesus. Is that right?

Yeah, I don't know why there at this joint. Live a little, guys. Good Lord, 12.30. We just got here, for Christ's sake. So, Rubwright said he looked over the balcony of the two-story club and saw Amy talking with the same two men, who were, he said, both around 5'8 to 5'10. One had long brown hair and a pot belly, and the other had brown hair with gel in it with blonde highlights. Oh, 2001.

Douchebags is what he just described. Yeah, a couple of douchebags. Gelled brown hair with blonde highlights. Welcome, everyone, to 2001. Sugar Ray did this to us rub right said he finished his beer and visited the bathroom when he came out around 1 a.m the bar was closing how long was he in there rub right wow rub right was dropping the kids off at the pool over here what are you doing hold on i'm gonna blow up the club bathroom before i

leave who does that? Go home. Sounds like that lobster dinner wasn't quite done. Oh, he's staying at a chick's house, though. He doesn't want to do it at her house. He's like, I don't want to blow it up. What if she changes her mind? Yeah, this is a smart move.

I'm going to get it over with now. There's no lobby in this hotel. No, exactly. This is rough. We're going to have to do it in the yard otherwise. So he said he couldn't see Amy in the crowd at that point, so he waited for her outside. By 1.20, he said she never showed up. So he left without her and drove back to her apartment, assuming that she ditched him and took off.

What? Yeah, he said, I waited outside till everyone was out of the bar at 1.20. And she wasn't in the parking lot and nobody else was in the bar so i figured she must have left she probably said where is this asshole he's shitting the place up either that or she thought he left so that's a bizarre move though yeah it's it's the right move obviously in that scenario but doesn't that feel weird to be like to leave after we went out together and then just go back to her to her apartment? He figured, I guess I'll run into her there.

He thought she was already there is what he says. He said it was weird. I didn't understand the now. Later on, these other two men will tell police that they left the club before closing and actually took Amy to a party at a nearby apartment that never really came together. Only a few people showed up and not everybody showed up. So they dropped her back off at the pavilion at 2 a.m. Back to where they got her from at the pavilion. I don't know why they wouldn't take her home.

Right. Why they take her there. But I don't think she doesn't live right there. So it would have been a drive. She left a car there. No, she drove with Rub Right in his rental car. So I don't know if she thought that Rub right would be there or what. So Rub right said that Amy never called him or returned home, though, that night.

So Sunday morning, he said he packed up his belongings and moved to the home of a friend. He said because she her car was in the driveway, just like it was when they went to Boston that morning because he drove. her car was in the driveway just like it was when they went to Boston that morning because he drove. He said he fished a house key out of – he had a house key, but he thought about going inside, but he said, I don't know if she's in there or if she – maybe she doesn't want me in there. So he just slept in the car in the driveway, Rub Wright said. That's a good move. He said slept in the car in the driveway. Then the next morning he went into the house and took a shower.

He said then he went in and took a shower. Oh, God. Yeah, because he's still got remnants of club funk. Club shitting. Yeah, club shits on him. And he slept in a rental car with that. Gross. God damn it.

He said that he was pissed off about the night before getting ditched in a strange city. He said, I mean, we weren't engaged or anything, but you don't go out with someone and then ditch them like that. He said, fuck it. I'm just going to drive back to Portland, and I'll spend a couple days. He spent a couple days hanging out around Portland. Then he flew back home to Florida after that. Okay. Left the rental car at the airport.

Flew back on Tuesday. Yeah. So he said he put her belongings, because had like her purse and shit in his car. Wow. Because she went into the bar, just took like her ID and stuff, didn't take her whole purse with her. So he had her purse and stuff.

So he said he put her belongings on the kitchen table and left an irate note on the door, which was discovered later that said, where the fuck did you go? Oh. Okay. Are you believing this guy? I mean, he's making some weird decisions but that the all those decisions after going back to her house makes

sense they don't make sense i wouldn't go in somebody's house exactly i thought the same thing yeah going back to her house is fucking weird in the first place but if you're staying there then that makes sense i guess yeah if you lose track of each other but that's the only place he knows that's what i mean they have both have cell phones on them too other good point that's the other thing i get that it's not now where you text somebody or whatever it's 2001 but it took a while to make a text but you could do it yeah and you could just call someone too yeah there's that so she did not also show up for work the next day either which is never she, she's never no called, no showed. So this is a little bit weird.

Now people start calling, her parents start calling the police on the whole deal. So police thought that Rub Wright's scenario seemed suspicious. It is weird, right? They didn't like his story. So let me get this straight. You saw her talking to two strange men, went in the bathroom for a for a half hour came out and these two strange men they just disappeared and then you waited then you went back to her house you slept in her car and then you went in and took a shower in her house and put her purse in there and shit and left but you hung out for a couple days like they called last

call and you're like i got a shit you're like oh perfect dump time shit? You're like, oh, perfect. Dump time. Who's ever done that? He said he was standing on line to the bathroom, which usually there isn't a big line in the men's room. Yeah, but and if you're going to shit, that's not where you're doing it. Because in a club? Oh, God. There's not even doors on most of those fucking stalls. There's not a dry spot to stand in there, let alone sit. You're going to shit at the end of the night?

No, thank you. No, no. You shit at like 8 p.m. and then it's it. That's the only way you're going to let it. I'll go to the beach and shit in the sand before I do that. Cover it up like a cat? I see Jimmy just with his hands on all fours with his hands fucking kicking sand back on it. I'll sit in the sand and get it all to clump up and knock it off before i try to

clean up in a bathroom after a bar night fuck that shit so they were like you left the you left the old port there that area alone you found your way back to her home in the middle of the night not even only been there like once then you slept in your car so he said he would take a polygraph they said we're gonna need you to take a polygraph. They said, we're going to need you to take a polygraph. He said, okay. The results are inconclusive. Okay. But they said he seemed extraordinarily nervous during the test. He was very jittery and shaky and shit. So a lot of the investigators were like, whatever happened to her, this is our guy.

He knows something. He knows something. So this is according to the investigators there. They said, you know, definitely we're looking at this guy. But he insisted that this is he said, I know it's weird, but this is what happened. He said, quote, It was weird. I didn't understand. But he said, I'm telling you, talk to the two guys.

She talked to them at the one club and then the other club. And she was talking to them the whole time. And that's what she was doing while I went to the bathroom. So if she went anywhere, it's probably with those guys he said one had long hair other gel douchey sugar ray hair so right do there so one of the guys they talked to this is uh gel boy here yeah gel guy is jeffrey russ he goes by russ gorman he's 21 middle name russell obviously has to be yeah or he just goes by Russ. I don't like that at all.

Russ Gorman here. He's 21. And Jeffrey, he told police that he dropped her off. He's the one of the guys that said, I took her. Yeah, we went to this party that never happened. And by 2 a.m., she was back at the club and dropped her off. They find him. That's his story.

He came forward because they were looking for him, and he heard that people were looking for her. So he called the cops and said, you might be looking to talk to me because I talked to her that night and we were hanging out with her. So he came forward to say he'd been with her that night, saw her at the pool room again at the pavilion, invited her to a party at a friend's apartment on Brighton Avenue and had driven her back to the pavilion around 2 a.m. when the party didn't materialize. He said he went back to that apartment after dropping her off and slept on the couch. So problem is people outside the pavilion that were still hanging out smoking cigarettes, staff and people like that that were cleaning up didn't see him drop her back off. And people at the apartment said that he didn't return that quickly because he said that he dropped her off at two. They went right back to the apartment,

which was right there. I mean like short distance. And they said, no, he didn't return to later actually. So they actually know that because police records show he was stopped for driving with his high beams on at 3am. Oh God damn it.

So at 3am he was out. So they talked to Dick Swallow. Dick Swallow said he's never heard of the two men that Amy was talking to. Russ? Don't know. Yeah, don't know Russ. Don't know the other guy. He said he doesn't believe she would leave with them voluntarily to go to a party

is what he said. He said she would not just take off with other people. I don't know about that, but her friend, her best friend from high school, says she was street smart and had really good instincts. And she doesn't think Amy would have voluntarily put herself in a dangerous situation. But she might. I mean, maybe you don't know. Yeah, that's the thing.

He said she could look at a person and tell whether a person was good or bad. But not that's she's you can be a very smart and savvy person and still get fooled by a bad person. Just because she had hip dysplasia doesn't make her part German Shepherd. That's the thing. She doesn't know people's character. She doesn't tilt her head and go...

She doesn't sense danger and evil. No. I'm sure all the girls Ted Bundy took, the all the girls ted bundy took not all of them were dumb probably probably a lot of them were probably pretty savvy and street smart and you know you either get murdered or that's how you meet a husband back then you know what i'm saying like guys walk up to you you talk to him or is he gonna kill me or does he have a good job and maybe we can talk i mean i assure you every man that's ever spoken to any woman had some sinister intentions.

Not necessarily murder or rape. But sexual. They just had some like, how do I convince this woman unknowingly, unwittingly to be naked with me? They want to do dirty shit to you. Yeah. Every time we've done everything, we've wanted to be worse. Oh, yeah. We were thinking of way worse stuff.

This is the worst stuff we could get away with today. That's what it is. Without you fucking telling your friends about it and embarrassing us. That's really how it is. That's how you call in the cops. We're as gross as we can be without you telling your friends about it. That's how it works. Can't be gross enough to where it's a subject of conversation.

So the cop said that something happened to this girl and we don't know yet what it was. She did not just walk away. And then her mother said, this is literally my worst nightmare and now I'm getting to live it. So she's missing. Everybody freaks the fuck out. Everyone keeps saying there's no way she'd run away. She wouldn't just ditch her job like that. Just no.

There's no way. So there's a huge missing person search by the next day. She's very cute also. So there's going to be. That's no way. So there's a huge missing person search by the next day. She's very cute also. So there's going to be. That's no good. She's a very pretty girl. It's going to be all hands on deck for this. That's going to be in the newspaper.

Strawberry blonde, Jimmy. Oh, no. All hands on deck. That's going to. Oh, red tin shit. I swear to God. Columbo, who's not even a real detective, was on the case. Everyone was. DeKojak was on the case everyone was to

kojak was involved you name it ncis was involved in this beretta heard about it fuck chris maloney tried to solve the case you know what i mean it's a lot yeah so her friends plastered the streets of portland and they're looking for and there's not a lot of other young ladies missing at this time. So let's take a peek and try to find her. Hundreds of flyers go up. She's officially declared missing on October 23rd. Two days later, her family offers a $35,000 reward to anyone that can help find her in any condition. That's a good reward.

That's a real good – yeah, that's a reward that will make people tell on people if you know something. Yeah, that will change some people's lives for like a long time i don't like my brother that much i think i'm gonna turn him in like that's one of those that truck i was looking at looks nice right shit i got a lot of credit card debt right now tell you what that was a had a rough run of it back then 2001 you could buy a sick car for 35 oh yeah that's awesome so the mother said quote i envision and imagine her out there somewhere cold and alone i wonder if she's scared and why someone hasn't found her yet that poor mother that poor lady diane jenkins everybody can feel that and you're she's great at strangling my heart that's yeah i mean that's

those are the words that do it she's trying to get people to help look for her daughter so she's trying to find she found the words and they said that we're her father so her stepfather said we're confident the tireless work of the portland police department and the effort of the larger community will return amy to us together we'll bring amy home so uh they talk about that there were over 100,000 missing people in America at the time. Ninety percent of them are found because most of them are just people that take off on their own. But they said these are a person who knows a lot about this. This organization said the kind of troubling facts surrounding Amy, though.

She said we find more women in that age group are victims of foul play. When there's foul play, the more time that goes by, the less chance there is of finding that person. Right. Is there a 25-year-old person who's got the wherewithal to call home if they want to, you know, to call their parents unless they're incapacitated and can't. And the odds that she's talking about, they're not great, but they're even worse

if you're on this show. That's the problem. Absolutely. It goes from slim to none quickly. Almost zero. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody says she's responsible, well-adjusted, wouldn't just take off. The cops actually agree with that assessment too. They don't find anything in her – talking to her friends, they don't find, oh, she actually used to smoke meth with this one guy and has a secret group of – they don't find any of that. She's just – she is what she is.

So they are investigating it as if it's a crime. They search for clues in woods and roads. I mean, there's people they have dogs going everywhere. There's search warrants for people's houses. They're searching rub right stuff, searching all these people. I think I think rub right got searched. The Portland police chief said this is not a typical missing person. All investigative leads lead to the fact that there's something criminal happening here.

Yeah. So the police are further able to confirm rub rights seemingly unlikely event because they're they're looking at him. They're like and then he takes off to Florida. I don't think so. But a security camera captured him buying gas at 138 p.m. by himself with toilet paper attached to his yeah just god damn it holding his ass cheeks together and police were able to locate the toll taker who allowed him to pass about 15 minutes later wow that he talked to and they they fucking recognized this guy's bizarre story is true yes he actually shit the place up slept in his car did all this stuff rinse his shit in her shower and left her stuff on the desk so then they were like okay we got

to talk to russ gorman and also a few days after the disappearance gorman's friend ryan campbell reported his nine millimeter handgun had been stolen the previous weekend oh no so they get a search warrant for gorman's car as we'll'll talk about. They don't find anything in there, but what they do find is kind of evidentiary in a way. The car is clean, clean, like just got detailed clean. Yes. They said it's a little odd here, there. Gorman, though, apparently is going to violate his probation, so they're going to be able to arrest him and bring him in. Oh, yeah, we'll talk about him for a second.

He went to, by the way, before he took off from town, he went to his grandmother's house and told her that he was carrying a gun and said that he would kill himself before he'd be arrested, and then he took off. That's a bad sign. Nice to see you, sonny. See you at Christmas? Fuck, man. Yeah. So, Gorman, come on over. I got a fruitcake for you what is that what a weird thing to say to your grandma gorman's friends had said gorman's one friend had said that's that girl

you were talking to you should call police when they saw her on the poster so that's why him and his roommate kush sharma is his name which sounds like a strain of weed or really nice toilet paper great this is kush sharma it's the best um he said you know exactly what happened and then uh he said they talked again uh gorman said that amy had lost track of rub right at closing time so she agreed to go to the party where in that apartment so he said that amy grew uncomfortable being in the house alone with the two men when nobody else showed up. So Gorman said he drove her back to the apartment or back to Old Port, dropped her off in front of the pavilion and then returned home. His roommate said, yeah, he came.

He was in bed by 2 a.m., which we know isn't true because he got pulled over at 3 a.m. So, yeah, Gorman was one of the first people to call the cops. He didn't seem evasive, but parts of the story are adding up, like when he went home and why is he lying about that? So after they search his car, he takes off back home to Alabama. He's born in Troy, Alabama. He also grew up in Florida as well. He's been doing drugs since he was 12. He has two kids that he doesn't pay for by 21.

Yeah. One of the cops said he knew Russ Gorman most of the time he was living in Troy as a kid. And he said he knew that he left and came back. And he said, I don't want to talk about anything while he was a juvenile. He had a lot of shit. Yeah. His parents got divorced before he was one, which is fine. But his father accused his mother of beating the baby with a belt at least one yeah a baby wow when he was 18 he was

charged with domestic battery against his mother wow yes um his mother though refused to file a complaint and the case was eventually dropped. She wouldn't talk against him. She's been had it coming for 17 years. Yeah. In court papers, it said Jeffrey does not have a healthy relationship with his mother. I guess not. He moved with his mother in 2000 to the Portland area just the year before.

His mother's name is Tammy Westbrook and her boyfriend to raise golden retriever puppies as a business I guess. He also worked part time as a car detailer and would hang out with a bunch of his friends and sleep at the apartment on Brighton Avenue most of the time which is a short drive from the

Old Port area. The cops don't know what to do so they get a psychic in here because they want to find Amy. Vicki Monroe, they bring in, a psychic messenger, she's calling herself. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep

and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers

at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church

for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan

and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched.

He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback

Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus and the wondery app or on apple podcasts she's okay she told investigators she had a clear vision of amy quote she was uh there she was standing in front of me amy full just like i'm looking at you she said so the first thing she said was very pronounced she mentioned the suspect's name she mentioned the guy's fucking name. She said Russ. She said Russ? Yeah. So the cops said, I went, wow, okay.

He said, now, there was no information in the paper. There was no way you could put two and two together at that time. No one knew they had talked to him. This was not public at all. She just knew. Then the psychic said, quote, there was a blow to the head, trauma, a blow to the head. And then she's suddenly standing in front of this large farm, which I then find out is a very popular farm, Smiling Hill Farm. She was beyond that road, that farm, but not too far is what the psychic said.

She said all these things without knowing anything. Without knowing shit, I guess. Just what she could read in the paper paper but that's just that a girl is missing and disappeared from a bar but she got a name of a farm and a dude's name a dude's name head injury that's amazing she said i see a yellow house she's telling me he lived in two states oh my god he lived down south and now he's living with his mother, which is true. Look for the house. Look for her. They're close.

Vicky did it, and she's framing him. Dude, I'm saying, Vicky. That's incredible. Vicky's giving me creepy goosebumps here because then December 8th, 2001, police are searching the woods near Gorman's mother's house in Scarborough. And they had a bunch of dogs and a volunteer finds a soft spot in the earth they bring the dog in and uh they put together enough clues uh here the earth had been disturbed recently 30 minutes later a detective's on his hands and knees at the site you know digging out soil and he found a bit of gray fleece matching the pratt and whitney

sweatshirt that she had been wearing when she vanished. They find her body with the sweater and with the sweatshirt and she is definitely dead here. Gorman had been living here for the past couple of years with his mother and other relatives at 68 County

Road. How did he think he was going to get away with that? Just a few hundred yards from where the body was found. buried her she's three feet on in the ground he buried her oh my god he buried it was just to happen to be a soft spot in the earth and they were really looking hard around there wow so the attorney general said the key to this case was finding amy because quote nobody no because, quote, nobody, no crime. Nobody, no crime. How does it always happen? Every fucking time. It's amazing.

Between the birds and how many people say those words together. It's a message, James. With island music and this many birds, we have to live near a beach. We need to. Someone wants us there. Jesus Christ. That's crazy. What the fuck?

So now it's a criminal investigation, a homicide investigation. They couldn't find any physical evidence, though. No gun was discovered. She is shot in the head, we'll talk about. The psychic said the other thing that she said that this is what the cop said the other thing she said that i remember distinctly was that amy would be found before the first snow as we were retrieving the body as we were pulling amy out it started snowing like crazy what yeah this is a good psychic let's just say she nailed it dude she nailed it why doesn't she win every fucking lottery every every every time she should have

all the money she doesn't know the numbers but she knows the name of the guy who's going to win the lottery that's what she knows but not the numbers and the gas station he buys the gas station it's going to come from there the cop said he credits good old-fashioned police work for solving the case. But he also says the psychic helped. He said she said things that were totally unique and outside of any information that she could possibly get. In other words, it made it to, oh, my God, there's something here, is what the cop said. Deputy Vicky now, right? Yeah, she should be something.

They should just ask her about everything we ask you some uh the autopsy shows that amy has been beaten sexually assaulted then shot in the head oh god it's horrible her underwear were twisted around her ankles that's how they found her toxicology tests indicated traces of fucking ghb wow drugged her yeah this is disgusting um what a scumbag police had collected anecdotal accounts from people that know russ gorman that he has used ghb to try to have sex with women in the past before his friends are like that's his move um but they had nothing to tie that to him they said that the case didn't really add up to much of a case against Gorman outside of it being found by his mom's house because there was no semen or other bodily fluids that could be tested for DNA. Can't find the murder weapon. Nothing.

So Gorman, they wanted to talk to him. They had taught he had volunteered to talk before. Then he put off a police officer's request to take a polygraph exam, saying he should see a lawyer first. He also said he was too busy to allow the forensic experts to inspect his car as well. That was before they got the warrant. Police decided to interview his roommates, seeking collaboration. His one roommate, Jason Cook, said he'd been on the computer when he got home sending an email message to somebody here. Gorman said that he recalled making a phone call, but he couldn't remember to whom.

Basically, his friends are saying that they got home between 3 o'clock and 3.15, and he wasn't there yet. Oh. Yes, unlike his one friend said. Oh, yes. And unlike his one friend said, and they said another friend said when he got up at 430 or 5 a.m., Gorman was fully clothed as though he just arrived home. He said he was washing up fully clothed. So his roommate who said he got back by two, they asked him to get take a polygraph exam and he didn't want to. So once they get him to, he said he could only be certain that he was home at 4.15. He wasn't sure he was home at 2. I don't know any other time. They said, why is your car so clean? And he said, well, I used to work for a carpet cleaning company and I do detailing.

He said, I usually clean my car twice a month. All I did is vacuum and wipe down the dash. There was no work involved. It wasn't like scrubbing carpets or anything like that. Yeah. He said, I would have taken hours to clean it correctly. Are you kidding me? So Gorman here, in the few weeks that this has gone by, they said when he's first interviewed by police, he had a wholesome look, quote, with fashionably coiffed hair and a certain boyishness.

Two weeks later, they said he went from looking like an all-American to a roadie for a heavy metal band with multiple piercings, a shaved head, and several new tattoos. What? He just turned into Lemmy from Motorhead in fucking 15 minutes after he murdered a girl, apparently. Pierced himself and several tattoos? He was just screaming Ace of Spades at people, and they're like, what is wrong with this? Several new tattoos? Wow. Then December 9th, there's a phone call, okay? Two days after the body's discovered, detectives get a call from a woman named Mary Young of Delray Beach, Florida.

What the fuck could she possibly have to do with this, right? That's far, yeah. Well, she wanted to say, she called the Portland police to say that her friend Tammy Westbrook had told her a story. That's Gorman's mom. This woman reported that Westbrook received a phone call from her son, Russ Gorman, in which he confessed to the murder of Amy. She said that he told her that he shot her in the head,

a detail that investigators didn't hadn't even told anybody. They hadn't told anybody. And the autopsy hadn't been completed, so they had no idea themselves. This young woman said she urged Westbrook to tell police, but her friend refused. She said, I can't do that. He's my baby.

She kept saying, I can't do that, and that it was her fault that he is the way he is. She blamed herself for it. It's my fault. She's literally begging her to call for her, isn't she? No, I guess that she has to be because she can't do it herself so young went to the police and they call they subpoena westbrook the mom to testify before a grand jury oh because if you get her in the box she's not going to admit it if now is it's what cops will say in the interrogation room when you're going to a grand jury if you lie to me you know i might get my feelings hurt if you lie to them it's a crime so that's the way it works that's perjury this is just you know we're fucking around

so uh westbrook refused to answer questions but then a judge pulled her aside and took had a chat with her and then she was ordered to and she did they said i'm gonna hold you in jail forever until you answer these questions so wow before she took the stand of the grand jury investigators told her what they had uh that they had videotaped the statements of young also a priest who had heard westbrook's story and they said we know it happened either you repeat it or you face a charge of perjury that lady had so much guilt but she didn't want to turn in her kid so she started crying she told how her son told her that he looked at amy and momentarily thought it was her she told her ma he told her mom his mom that i thought it was you i looked

at her for a minute and thought it was you he said he pulled out a gun and shot her in the head his mom said mom yep i'll never forget it as long as i live meanwhile he fucking sexually assaulted her in some way we don't know exactly how but he sexually assaulted her in some way. We don't know exactly how, but he sexually assaulted her in some way. Did he think he was sexually assaulting his mom? If he did, this is like co-ed killer shit. He would have done this again. He was going to do this so much. Oh, so who knows if he hasn't done this so much in Alabama and Florida?

There's women missing in Florida everywhere. And he also said that Gorman had told her that he had taken lsd and he thought he saw his mother's face when he shot amy in the head she said uh yeah she blamed he blamed her for messing up his life and that he also said that his mom was lucky she wasn't the one he killed take some responsibility you piece of shit wow he said quote okay mom i'll tell you what happened. I did it. He said she said something to me. I don't remember what I just looked at her and he saw my face and he said he said he pulled out a gun and shot her in the head. He said, you ought to be glad it wasn't you, mom. You ought to be glad that you're not dead. I'll never forget that as long as I live. Jesus Christ. Yeah. He said he didn't know if he blacked out or just snapped or what, but he said he pulled the gun out and shot her in the head. Meanwhile, also what he's leaving out is I pulled out a gun that I stole from my friend because I'm a terrible friend, too. Oh, and I drugged this chick and fucking raped her, by the way, too.

I'm terrible to strangers and friends. By the way, I'm terrible to strangers and friends. I drugged, beat and raped this chick that I met at the fucking bar and then put her behind your house, too. Just to. Yeah. Yeah. So December 10th, police announced he's the suspect and they want to find him. December 11th, he's down in Alabama.

They want to find him for this and a probation violation. He's down in Alabama at a gas station where he claimed a man was staring at him, Gorman. So he pulled out a pistol and pointed at him and said, what are you looking at? Oh, my God. And drove away. This guy called the cops. And the next day, there's a standoff here at a house outside of Troy where everyone has to evacuate the residence. And there's a big standoff with Russ.

He refuses to be arrested. There's a four-hour standoff, nearly six hours. He threatens suicide. He has two guns, one in each hand. He wasn't cooperative and didn't make any demands either. All he asked for was a phone. He wouldn't threaten anybody, but he did threaten to kill himself. Negotiators refused to give him a phone.

Things were broken off several times, by the way, the negotiations. He held the guns out of sight so the traffic passed because there was traffic going by and they were all looking. So they said, will you please hold the guns down so the traffic will pass and people won't stare. Eventually, police negotiators disarm him by they negotiate the release of one of his guns for a cigarette and the other one for a can of soda. Telling you, man, sometimes the rock star lifestyle just holds on to you. You got that cigarette. Got to have it, man. He said he didn't leave Maine to run away from anything.

He just wanted to visit his grandparents. That's it. That's all. Yeah. He just wanted to visit his grandparents. That's it? That's all. Yeah. He said, that's fine. He said that his mother, none of that happened. He described his mom as a complete lunatic. So they searched for the gun for a while.

January 2002, he is sentenced to 90 days in jail after he admits to technical violations of his probation involving an earlier crime. Now they can hold him without having to charge him or anything because he's not. Neither of those two guns he had was the murder weapon. No. Wow. Neither one's a murder weapon. So grand jury, like I said, Tammy has to go up. His mom has to tell everything here.

He's indicted on a charge of murder. He pleads innocent. OK. His defense was that he thought he was shooting his mother. That's what he said. And what his mother said wasn't true because his lawyer called his mother a deeply troubled and unreliable woman subject to memory loss and delusion. Okay. While he's awaiting trial in jail, he has to plead guilty to trafficking in prison contraband for hiding razor blades in his cell.

Wow. That's because we'll find out he's been stabbed seven times in jail. Seven. How much of a piece of shit is he? That's what I'm saying. Even rapists of adult people don't get stabbed. He's an asshole. He's an asshole.

People don't like him. Jerk. This has nothing to do with what he did. He's an asshole. He's an asshole. People don't like him. Jerk. This has nothing to do with what he did. He's a dick. Maybe one or two stabbings, but the rest of them are, you know, we already stabbed him twice. Right. He says he never made the call. He said, I love my mother a lot.

We've had difficulties when I was growing up, but doesn't every family? It wasn't like she was chasing me around the house with a butcher knife. I was a bastard growing up, completely resentful. I didn't go to school. I caused my mom a lot of problems. I guess when I got older, she got tired of it, me staying home from school, drinking and smoking weed and breaking things around the house. I'd scream at her and tell her, I'm not going anywhere. What are you going to do about it?

I have matured a lot since I've been here. I'm not a kid anymore. This is serious. I've been stabbed seven times. I've been stabbed. I'm not a kid anymore. This is serious. I've been stabbed seven times. I've been stabbed seven fucking times. They asked him about the inconsistency in his stories, and he said, so many nights, so many beers, they all run into each other.

We were going out every night. I was doing acid. Who the fuck knows? I have no idea. So, wow. His trial comes up, and now his hair's grown out. Yeah. But he used to be 170 pounds he's 236 now he gained

packing it off 55 pounds he said that's from our 65 pounds he said that's from eating candy bars and being depressed holy shit he said that it troubles him that people think he's a murderer he said i do care what people think people think i'm a monster people think i'm an animal he does some weird shit in court he winked at the family of the victim how dare you you piece of shit on one trip here um they watched spectators watched him wink at the at the sister here and um that's wild and then later on he mouthed the words i'm sorry and he said he did do that he said i did he said i wasn't trying to be a dick i was trying to say i was sorry he said if i was in their places and thought someone killed my daughter i would hate that person and want to see that person put away for a long time yeah you think um so yeah it's the the prosecutors say use your common sense

jury they found the fucking body in his head at his house here. His mom on the stand says, I don't remember that phone call now. It's all gone from my memory. I don't know anything about it. So they have a big side trial almost to say whether they can just play her grand jury testimony for the. Oh, yeah, because that's all taped. And they end up saying, yes, they can. So they end up doing it because she refuses to testify.

She will not testify. She says, I've always wanted to tell the truth. I just never wanted to talk. That's hilarious. Oh, you. Pain in the ass. Then in court, she pops a pill. And it turns out to be a Seroquel, an antipsychotic drug.

They thought maybe she was going to kill herself in court or something, so they had to make sure. She's been paranoid lately. She thought she came home to believe her telephone's been tapped. She's been making phone calls from a payphone, and then she believed the payphone was tapped too. She said, a lot of people call me paranoid. Okay. Well, I mean, you raised a terrible young man, so this is your sentence. A very bad person.

I hope you're paranoid for the rest of your life for no good reason. No shit, right? Jury, six men, six women deliberate for five hours, and they come in guilty of murder. That's shit, yeah. Sentencing, the great uncle here, her great uncle said, I believe in an eye for an eye it's just too bad they don't have the death sentence uh her her father her stepfather here said oh no this is yeah this is her stepfather said quote you burn in hell gorman from the stand just like wow that's

hardcore that's not too shabby here the sister said she doesn't get a second chance i don't think you should do you should get one either mama westbrook though his mom said he's a caring person he's not evil he's not a monster he thought he was killing his mother it's a very simple explanation you guys he thought it was me not her then she said he's being quote picked on in jail and he's been stabbed seven times. The other boys are picking on him in there. There's a vast difference between being picked on and being stabbed. Even he knew this was too far. Gorman got up and said, just sit down, mom. Stop.

Enough. Enough. He said enough. This is getting embarrassing. You're making it worse. So the prosecutors are seeking the maximum, is life and there's no parole and at all in maine what your sentence is your sentence so life is life so um life is life the state argued that the did this to cover a sexual assault or premeditation and that this

this is you know whatever his lawyer said he's capable of change and recommended 38 years in prison for him what about that the judge said i expect that no one in the courtroom will be pleased with what i do i do not consider this to be a life sentence case he said that he doesn't think that it was a premeditated thing he think it happened quickly which i don't know if i believe there he then recounted gorman's troubles past starting with the you know all of this shit starting drug use fathering children he doesn't provide for he also says that gorman cannot be high hide behind the excuse of a bad life and had not chosen to make those gains and he could have helped improve his life if he tried he said

you've shown absolutely no remorse to this moment you remain defiant you sir may fuck off 60 years hard 60 yeah he has to do 60 years with good time he's gonna do like 51 or 52 okay with good time so the family's pretty happy about it i mean the mom's gotta be like he'll be dead i'll be dead by the time he gets out they said he's they're going to appeal based on the fact that mom's testimony shouldn't have been allowed in from the grand jury she should have been allowed to lie he's been stabbed seven times before the trial was done if he's not getting out he said the way they found me guilty violates every right every rule there's no case law on this. He said whatever the courts are claiming, my mom said, I have no idea. I'm not acknowledging the grand

jury testimony because it was an illegal process that they did, and frankly, I couldn't ID the voice on the tape. He said, might not even have been my mother, even though a grand jury, bunch of people, stenographer typed it out. Everyone was there. He's saying maybe it wasn't that. The appeal,

they tell him to get fucked um take a hike here he uh is at the cumberland county superior or the main state prison facility there so he writes a letter that starts out to whom to those who care this is 4 17 21 is the date so 2021 he talks about how he's completely screwed stuff up. He won't admit it, though. He's saying because of the appeal, I can't really talk about much more of this, but I'll just say I was a bad person and I want to right my wrongs. I want to be a good person. I'm so very sorry. He said, never have I believed or thought I would have a second chance. I'm not sure I deserve to have one. Even so, I will try everything to have another chance. I want to be a

father, a son, a brother, my fiance, soon to be wife. I want to be a husband. I want to be a member of the community. I want to earn a college degree. I'm so sorry. I was just 21 years old, and I don't know who I was back then. I was not a good person. I was an evil, horrible person.

I'm not that anymore. I will continue to work on myself. Yeah, that's what I mean. Parole is just one. He says parole is just a wonderful thing to have some hope to dream of one day being with my family. They have suffered. My sentence was 60 years. I'll be 73 when I'm released. My fiance is 52. Now I don't think she would be here. My daughter will be 53. I don't think it would. I don't think I would make it to that age. If I had that, I would have nobody there.

I can be a good man and help people. I'm no longer that 21-year-old scum, he says. And he ends it with Jeffrey Russ Gorman, 46863, a man seeking forgiveness and a second chance. Thank you. Fuck off, Russ. For the last 20 years. I want all these nice things. Okay, so do a lot of people.

Sure. For the last 20 years, her mom, Amy's mom, and her family have been running an organization called RAD, R-A-D, Rape Aggression Defense,

teaching thousands of women, teens, and children how to keep themselves safe. There was a book written by the cops who did this story, who investigated this called Finding Amy the True Story of Murder in Maine.

So there's that. That everybody is Scarborough, Maine and a hell of a fucking crazy tale. Poor Amy. She didn't deserve that. That was fucking heartbroken and rough sucks and fuck his mom too. She shouldn't women shouldn't have to go through a rape aggression defense fucking class.

No, that's so fucked up. So yeah. Yeah. hey don't hot take everyone stop raping hot take stop raping everybody sincerely stop it yes please we beg you we're serious about this if you like this show tell the world about it get on whatever app you're listening on give us five stars it does help a lot shut up and give me murder.com. Head over there right now. Tickets to live shows. September 8th, Atlanta. September 9th, Charlotte, Dallas.

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