Small Town Murder - #421 - Three Murders & Six Congenital Idiots - Starke, Florida

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

This week, in Starke, Florida, a woman tries to help her sister find someone to scare the sister's husband into an easier custody battle. This leads to an ex-Marine, turned mercenary, who advertises his services in a magazine. Of course, the next thing you know, there are affairs, lust, overprotective mothers, multiple murders in different states, true cousin love, and finally, lethal injection. You may need a scoreboard to figure out who wants who dead!Along the way, we find out that Florida has some very strange murders, that being an ex-Marine, doesn't make you an international assassin, and that being in love with your first cousin can lead to being executed!! Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Stark, Florida, an ad in a magazine causes a string of events to take place that results in three murders and several idiots sent away for a long, long time. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks folks so much for joining us on another insane edition of small town murder to have you gobbling about this is uh this is wild it's florida we're going to florida so oh boy when we do small town murder in florida you know it's going to be crazy because there's so much to choose from down there it's really it's an embarrassment of riches if you're if you're a

murder podcast looking for crazy stories especially especially a comedy murder podcast, because they're all ridiculous. So we'll get into all of that and more in a little bit, though. But first, definitely head over to shutupandgivememurder.com right now. If you head over to shutupandgivememurder.com slash virtual live, you can get your tickets to the virtual live show. Oh, yeah. October 26th. It's a Halloween theme. We're going to dress up. It's going to be a Halloween theme we're gonna dress up

it's gonna be a Halloween-y creepy murder we're gonna do all of that the studio will be decorated all creepily

it's gonna be amazing it's gonna be available for a week after that as well so all through Halloween get your tickets right now we cannot wait

just like a regular live show the visuals the jokes the murder but we will be here and you will be there wherever you feel like watching us,

anywhere in the world with your own food and your own booze and your own whatever you're into. So you could be nude and watch. We don't care. That's fine. Or you could wear a parka. We don't give a shit. It's up to you. I will be under the clothes.

Under all our clothes, we'll definitely, definitely. So check that out. Also, get your tickets at shutupandgivememurder. com for Dallas. All the kind of sold out all before that. I think there's a couple of tickets left for Philly because we released our personal one. So I think there's tickets left for that. And then Dallas, December 2nd as well. There's some tickets left for that. Everything else is sold out because you guys are awesome. Thank you so much for doing that you certainly want to check out september the 18th monday morning your stupid opinions our new podcast that we are so damn excited about we've had bubbling in the cauldron for a while and it's finally all ready and we cannot wait stupid people from all over the internet's dumb opinions and dumb reviews about everything you could imagine from places to people to things to products it's's awesome. We can't wait to do that. That is September

18th and you definitely want Patreon patreon.com slash crime and sports. How much is it? Very expensive to get a bonus. No it's a cup of coffee. One singular cup five dollars or more whatever you want to do gets you not only the whole back catalog

of bonus episodes, a couple hundred of them to binge on, but new ones every other week. It's the best bargain you're going to get, the best bargain bonus you're going to get. And this week is going to be awesome. We have for Crime and Sports, which of course you have access to, we're going to talk about Operation Slapshot, which is a gambling operation that was going on in the NHL, including a very prominent player turned coach. And it was a big mess.

And then we're also going to talk about the movie Slapshot because somehow neither of us had ever seen it, which is crazy. What a movie. And we didn't put it in our list of top sports movies, and we feel like we need to give it its due. So we'll talk all things Slapshot. And for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about something very fun, being what happened at Burning Man and all that kind of thing.

We're going to talk about the Fyre Festival. Oh, boy. People need to be reminded since Fyre Festival 2 is going to happen, and people are actually bought. It's sold out. Don't do it. People actually bought tickets for that. It's sold out.

Oh, yeah. People are very dumb. So we'll talk all about that Fyre Festival and the mess that that was and everything that surrounds it. That's patreon.com slash crime and sports all right disclaimer quickly this is a comedy show it's also a murder show there will be murder the facts are very accurate we nothing is embellished for comic effect or anything ridiculous like that it is that's what's so ridiculous about it is that it's true it would be no fun if we made anything up so that's how this works there will be jokes and there will be murder but yes the way we do this is we never make jokes

about the victims or the victims families why james because we're assholes yeah but we're not scumbags see that's how that works so if you think that sounds good to you holy shit are we going to have a good time yeah you think true crime and comedy should never, ever, ever, ever go together. I don't know. Maybe you're not for us. Maybe we're not for you. Good thing we found out now. Maybe you want to give a listen.

No complaining afterwards. That's what we're saying here. We laid it out for you. We told you what we do, you know, as you do. Let's do that. So that said, I think it's time, everybody, to sit back. Oh, boy. Let's clear the lungs.

Let's all reach to the sky and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, Jimmy. Okay. Let's go on a trip. All right. We are going down to Stark, Florida. Okay.

S-T-A-R-K-E, Florida. It's not like John Stark's. So this is in north central. This is like northeastern Florida, I guess you'd call it, basically. You know how Florida's two panhandles stuck together, one that goes down and one that goes over. So it kind of looks like two legs. This is right in the taint. This is like right where your butthole would be kind of a deal.

So if you look at Florida. So northeast or northwest? Northeast. Northwest is over in the panhandle. That would be a foot. So like right in the center, near Pensacola. It's between Gainesville and Jacksonville in between there. Oh, it's far over there.

Yeah, in the northeastern part. Yeah. So it's a half hour to Gainesville, about two hours and 10 minutes down to Orlando. Yeah. If you want to go somewhere a little different. And then two hours and 45 minutes to Newport Ritchie, which was our last Florida episode, Natural Porn Killers, which you should definitely check out if you have not heard that because it is insane. So this is in Bradford County, which is that? No, it's Brevard that we have those patches and we have oh yeah we have get out of jail free cards for bravard county

from the that's awesome we have like the patches we have all this he's like here's all the stuff you'd need yeah pretty much atlantic too don't kill anybody but everything else you're fine you'll skate on it and they're like oh wow this is and we'll take care of you. Yeah, that was great. Thank you to the guy who gave us that. And keep your dick in your pants, though. Yeah, we won't mention his name, but he was a good guy. He was a chief of police, actually. He was a good guy.

So this is area code 904. Motto here. All right. Southern hospitality at its finest. Yeah. A little bit of history here. Prior to the 1850s, nobody was here,

pretty much. It was just kind of a open, sparsely settled. Then they announced a railroad was coming through here to connect the Atlantic Ocean with the Gulf of Mexico,

and then people started coming in here. The first post office opened in 1857, established by George W. Cole. So, I don't understand. Again, there's a where who's Stark? Yeah.

Yeah. This guy. Nobody named Stark. I can find here probably some guy from the railroad. I assume probably the brake man. Yes. The guy who decided to run the railroad by the town or something, because that's what they used to name it after this guy cole in 1859 obtained 40 acres of land around the post office which is described as the original town of stark so he said i'm going

to buy all this shit and make a town out of it they had a weekly newspaper the bradford county telegraph began publication in 1879 and it continues to be the oldest weekly newspaper in Florida today. It's still around, which is very obvious. I mean, how many newspapers have folded? Thousands. How many people are still reading newspapers? That's impressive. Whenever I'm on a plane, I see somebody with a newspaper.

I'm like, look at that. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's weird because it's a fine thing to do. Look at you. Look at you doing it. Look at you with a paper. Look at you hanging on to it. Yeah. I'm like, look at that. What year you. Look at you doing it. Look at you with a paper.

Look at you hanging on to it. Yeah. What year is that from? Oh, my God. That's today's paper. That's new. I was looking on the front for JFK assassinated or something. You know, Nixon resigns or some shit. I'm looking for it.

No. Nothing about Watergate. Japs surrender. You know what I'm saying? I'm looking at old headlines headlines and it's not that. Not there. No. Not there.

So they experienced tremendous growth in the 1880s and 1890s from the citrus industry. Yeah. And that came when people decided they started liking oranges, which by the way, oranges, people didn't have like an inherent want for oranges. They grew oranges in Florida and California. Both these places simultaneously created a demand for oranges. Like the whole have a glass of orange juice with breakfast thing. That wasn't like doctors said that. It's not some traditional thing for thousands of years.

That's what the citrus growers said to try to sell orange juice in the 1890s and early 1900s. You know, that may be the best campaign built by an industry ever. Yeah, it's delicious. It's great. You know what I mean? The milk thing, you look like a fucking weirdo if you're just drinking a glass of milk. It's thick. It's weird.

Orange juice is sweet. It's good. It's delicious. It's got a lot of vitamins in it. It goes in alcoholic beverages. Yeah. You can kill the taste of vodka. It's fantastic.

Pour it right in your fucking champagne. It's amazing. It's great a lot of vitamins in it. It goes in alcoholic beverages. Yeah. It can kill the taste of vodka. It's fantastic. Pour it right in your fucking champagne. It's amazing. It's great stuff, man. So a bunch of northern people moved to the area, and tons of them moved to take a stake in the industry. But then in 1894, 1895, that winter, they had, quote, the Great Freeze. Oh, ruined all their crops. Which fucked up all the orange droves and moved the citrus industry further south like let's go where's the line that

didn't freeze at go south of there that's out there so Stark saw a lot of expansion when the highway came through and all that there was a World War II camp Blanding was near here also after World War II people continued to

settle a lot of the army guys stayed here so that kind of happened they had the strawberry festival was born all right back in the day we'll talk about that later here um the late 80s it received national media attention during the proceedings of the ted bundy case oh it was there oh because i was in jacksonville the prison is nearby in rayford so okay a lot of people were staying in this town and also didn't kill that girl in jacksonville was it there i don't remember i think it was outside of jacksonville yeah in the northeast over there so he they also and uh lawton chiles was florida governor and uh there was a notorious speed trap town which was this town stark was

they had warning the governor had warning billboards placed on the exits of the highways saying that be careful because this is a speed trap town so that's the kind of it's a town where that makes you know depends on people speeding through it yeah yeah so that's that's never really a good sign. Right. Reviews of this town, because we don't know. Let's see. Right. Tell me more. Let's see what they say here.

Reviews, five stars here. This is a community filled with God-fearing people that work hard and care to make a difference. It is a location that is central to everything Florida has to offer. Three exclamation points. That's how central it is. Yeah. That's how central it is. That's how central it is. It needs three exclamation points. And filled with good God-fearing people.

Yeah. Okay, four stars. I grew up in Stark. It has always been a small town. Everyone knows everyone. It has a lot of potential, and we are currently working on our town growth. Working on it.

We're figuring it we'll get there downtown has a bit of a historic mayberry kind of feel which draws a lot of memories of the simplicity of life back then back when and in on a on a fucking tv set in burbank because that's where that was shot that's's where it was shot in Georgia. That little guy doesn't have any hair today. I mean, things change. No, yes, he's very bald at this point. Very disappointing. He didn't know it was going to turn out this way.

Fonzie doesn't exactly look the same either. No, he doesn't. He says, overall, it's been a decent experience. My roots are here. I will always remember where I came from. Oh. That's important. Forget it. remember where I came from. Oh. That's important. Forget it.

Here's three stars. Three stars. Stark is a very small country town in Florida. There is one high school and one middle school. The people are friendly. However, if you want to eat healthy, then this is not the place for you. Lots of fried chicken. That's not surprising. There is mostly fast food restaurants and no fine dining.

Raising a family, yes. Nightlife, no. Okay. There you go. Diet of high cholesterol, abs a fucking loopy. Check. That's a good answer. Yes.

Three stars. I enjoy the supportive atmosphere in this small town community. However, the schools in this town have an overall grade of f that's not great this city also does not allow for much learning or job opportunities due to the small population allow is the weird word to put there i get that it works technically but it sounds like you have to like go and they're like nope you ain't going to school and they like cross you off a list and then you're not allowed to go to school you're done you're like, nope, you ain't going to school, and they cross you off a list, and then you're not allowed to go to school. You're done. You're done.

Sorry. Nope. Not a lot of people here, so nope, you can't have a job neither. Click. You're out. Here's two stars. These are both two-star reviews. They're both one line, and they kind of go together a little bit. One is there are no nightlife-slash-entertainment options,

which are going to be expected, and the other one is there aren't many job options, which is going to be expected. And the other one is there aren't many job opportunities, which is understandable. It's a small town. Hand in hand, yeah. People here, 5,669 is the population. Wow. It's not a big place at all. Little place.

For some reason, and this is way out of whack, there's usually a few more females than males. Here it is 55% male. Dominate. I don't know if that's citrus industry workers, but there's not a lot of females than males. Here it is 55% male. Dominate. I don't know if that's citrus industry workers, but there's not a lot of citrus here anymore, so I don't know what the hell that's about. There's a lot of swinging dick around here, James. It's a dick town. It's a

dick and balls kind of town, if you know what I mean. Heard of hick towns? Well, this is a dick town. This is a dick town. Median age here, 37.1, which is just about normal. A lot of people 25 to 34, way over the average for that. Really? 45% married, so a little bit lower.

A lot of single with children, though, 24% which is two and a half times higher than the average. Race in this town, 62.9% white, which is like exactly the national average there. 27.2% black. 0.0% Asian. Oh. No Asian people. Not a one. 5.1% Hispanic, which is a town in Florida with 5% is low for Hispanic people.

That's low. 45.8% of the people people are religious which is below the national average but out of everybody 27.4 are baptists because is that right oh yeah we know baptists are the catholics of the south they're everywhere they're all over the place uh 0.0 percent jewish which is a florida town with very few hispan Hispanic people and zero Jewish people is a, this is a strange place. So in this town or in this county, Bradford County, last election, 23.2% of the people voted Democrat, 75.7% Republican, 1.1% independent. The unemployment rate's pretty low here. Household income, though, very low it is 33 958 dollars a

year oh boy which is more than 20 000 less than the national average not great cost of living uh is also pretty low though that's the other thing uh housing is definitely low median home cost here 205 000 fantastic so that's pretty low. And if we've convinced you, you don't care about it. You don't want to grow oranges. You want to go down and eat fast food and be fine about it. We'll build a future. We'll build a future together. We have for you the Stark, Florida Real Estate Report.

average two-bedroom rental here is 920 dollars which is again well below the national average uh here's a three-bedroom two-bath 1025 square foot kind of raised ranch that is it's looks beat up a little bit just looks oh really there's a lot of paint and some tile and it just needs the outside everything needs a sprucing on this thing looks like it's just kind of been sitting there in the salt air it's gonna take a couple months to fix it too yeah it's kind of worn out it's kind of shitty the good thing about the listing is though is that they photoshopped furniture in some of the pictures. I love when they do that. Not in all of them. The walls are super dirty. It's not cleanable.

You have to paint. Yeah, it's like where furniture's been, and there's like a mark around it where it's been there for 20 years. Smoked in or some shit? Yeah, it looks like maybe grandma, grandpa died, and we're selling their house now. Oh, no. So that is $174,000 for that.

It's very affordable. Next up, eight bedroom, nine bath, tea bowl for each and every b-hole. That's a lot of b-holes there. In the middle house? This is great. This is, yeah, 5,254 square feet on 40 acres. Oh, my. It's the weirdest goddamn house you're ever going to find ever.

oh my it's the weirdest goddamn house you're ever gonna find ever it looks like it looks like if you had like like like toys that were houses but they were all different and you had five of them and you're like i'm gonna make this into one house and one of them's a raised ranch i'm gonna put like a wood thing over here and some bricks i'm gonna stick over here no it's like a frankenstein of like multiple bad houses and they just over the last however many years people just been adding on to it it's so strange and inside too it is all doilies and really it looks like Florida grandma lives here let's go down come on kids let's go down and visit grandma grandma's got 5,000 square feet of come on over yeah oh and it's got the of course quintessential raised tub with carpeting around it,

which everybody wants in the bathroom there. $799,900 for that. That's 40 acres and a giant house. That's incredible. That's incredible. It's ugly as shit, but you can make it work. Here's a three-bedroom, four-bath, again, T-Bowl for each and every b-hole,

4,976 square feet. Oh, boy. It's on a lake, right on a lake. Your yard goes out to this big, giant lake, which is a nice view, which in Florida, that just means you're going to be dodging fucking alligators. Gators.

That doesn't, like... Gators and flying insects that can carry your children away. Keep me away from the water in Florida. I don't want to be near, like, any body of water that isn't salt. I don't want anything to do with it at that point. So it's very weird.

It's a very boring house. It's real expensive looking. Everything inside looks real fancy and nice and expensive. And it is $4,500,000. For a place you don't even want to use because you'll ruin the investment. You'll ruin it all, yeah. This is like an Airbnb that our rapper trashes, and it's on social media.

We don't shower in that toilet. Stay out of there. No, stay out of there. God damn it. That's not for you. Things to do here. The Bradford County Strawberry Festival. Okay.

Yeah. Smells nice. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Strawberry Festival. I love strawberries. Yeah, they're the best. The festival will feature arts, crafts, vendors, kids zone, laser tag, which I always think of when I think of strawberries.

They go hand in hand, right? Great food and entertainment and more. It's a whole weekend. All capital letters, exclamation point. No pets allowed. Goddamn dog home. They don't like that. I'm not a fan of German Shepherd here with my chocolate-covered strawberries.

They don't want it there at all. Damn it. I like it. To me, if there's a dog around and we're outside, I'm a happy guy. Yeah. If we're outside, who gives a shit? If you're sitting at sit-down dinner in a nice restaurant, fine. Keep the dog home.

But we're outside walking around a field in Florida. What are you kidding me? The dog can protect me from the gator. Somebody in the upper echelon of designing this whole festival stepped in dog shit one year and has had enough of it. Never again. No more. We won't have it.

These are brand new. They're two minutes away from banning kids too. These fairies were expensive. He said, Each year, the Florida Strawberry Festival hosts world-famous headline entertainment from across the globe. We work hard to provide our guests with a fresh festival experience each year and every year by securing award-winning performers to fit guests of all ages. Who the fuck is coming to this? Wait till you hear.

Gate admission is not included with the purchase of a concert ticket. So you have to buy these things separately. Okay. For included with the ticket is Jimmy Sturr and his orchestra. Never heard of them. S-T-U-R-R. I don't know them. These are all ticketed events after this.

The Oak Ridge Boys will be there. The Oak Ridge Boys are playing a town of 5,000. How popular do you think the Oak Ridge Boys are as a draw nowadays? I'd go see them. Fuck, I love them. Fuck, I love them. How much do you think of them? How many times can they play Elvira?

You know what I mean? Like, how many times, really? This is their porch singing tour, it says. Oh, my. Are all of them still alive i i want to know how many of them are still alive everyone in the picture looked 100 but i mean they could have got other old guys to replace dead old ones we wouldn't know as long as there's a guy that's a good bass yeah as long as there's as long as there's that guy um walker hayes will be there. Yeah. Good singer. Seems like a country guy. Hale Storm. She's terrific.

H-A-L-E Storm. And that's crazy that Lizzy Hale is playing the same festival as the fucking Oak Ridge Boys. Dude, it's weird. Unbelievable. Sarah Evans. This list gets weirder. The Gatlin brothers will be there. Now you've lost me.

Old guys there. Yeah. Of course, with most Gatlin brothers, whenever they're around, you're going to see our next guest, obviously. Ludacris will be there. Okay. Now I've had enough of this place. I don't know what's going on. And then Roots and Boots will also be there.

I don't know who that is. Is it the Roots and they're wearing boots? I don't think so. I don't think they go with Ludacris and the Gatlin brothers too well. I don't know what's happening there. This is a crazy event. We'll just say that. Wow.

The event is fucking bonkers. Lizzie Hale plays rock, James. She's a badass. There's also Willie Nelson's there. It was sold out. Wow. Yeah, they have all these giant fucking acts, I guess, that people buy tickets for. They also have the Stark Bike Fest.

Okay. It is a result of combined efforts of local motorcycle enthusiasts, the business community, and the city of Stark and Bradford County governments. Live music, contests, a terrific opportunity to meet other motorcyclists. Well, sure. I mean, we're all here. Great opportunity to be stabbed in a parking lot. That's what that sounds like to me. Yeah.

I mean, you're going to park next to them. They'll be there. You can talk. Take a ride through pre-interstate Florida back to a time when the journey was just important as the destination. Isn't that dirt roads? You don't want to ride a motorcycle on a dirt road. Probably not.

I don't understand that at all. Crime rate in this town. We're interested in here. Crime rate. Property crime is a little bit above the average here. Is that right? A little bit more property crime. But violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime is almost double the national average.

Wow. So there is some shit going on in this town. Boy, I don't know what is happening. I didn't hear any of that in the reviews. Yeah, nobody said a word about feeling unsafe. Twice as many people that I know as normal are being stabbed and beaten and robbed in the streets. But apparently there's bad stuff going on, and there's a lot of bad stuff going on in this story. Let's talk about a murder here. Let's do it. Many murders, actually, we're going to talk about. apparently there's bad stuff going on and there's a lot of bad stuff going on in this story let's

talk about a murder here or let's do it many murders actually we're going to talk about okay let's go back to 1984 shall we oh 84 hulk hogan is flexing all over the place and is that is that back to the future or was that 80 that's 85 back to the the Future. Close. We're almost there. 84 you got here. This is, you know, what? We got like Madonna's huge. Yeah, she's crushing it. Just to give you an idea of, put you in a place of 1984 here. So let's talk about a couple of people. Let's talk about Marlene and Cecil Beatty.

B-A-T-I-E. Oh, that's not her. That's a different Beatty. Either one. Yeah, not like Ned Beatty or Warren Beatty. So Marlene is 27 and 84, and Cecil is 33. Okay. Now, yeah, that sounds nice.

They're a married couple. The issue I have with it, though, is that when they got married, not when they met, when they got married, actually legally married, Cecil was 21. Yeah. And Marlene was 15. Yep. One sophomore. That's sophomore.

Oh, man. And that was in the 70s? Late 60s? This was 12 years with 72. That's far too late for that shit. Yes, I mean, this. That's far too late for that shit. Yes, I mean, this is not, oh, you know, your older brother died, so I need help with the farm, so now you marry his widow. This is not that. This is 1972.

Get the fuck out of here with that. This is crazy. So, wow. That's what was going on there. So this is the relationship. Wow. It's hard to have a healthy relationship, out of really is yeah when an adult met like a 13 year old and courted her and married her you know took her away from all that pressure of her sophomore year of high school

that's a rough right start i don't like it uh cecil is a tree surgeon around gainesville that's what he does oh which i'm arborist or actual i don't know i know i don't like him right away because i've never been robbed you could come up to me never had more money taken from you and stick a fucking nine millimeter in my face and say give me everything you got and i would feel less robbed than when i had a fucking tree problem and the tree people had to come out and do it and they they were just like, I don't know, a zillion dollars. How's that?

Good? I don't know. Is that the going rate? Is that the right price? I don't fucking know, but they, oh my God, I've never been robbed so blindly than by someone who saved a tree in my yard. Yeah, but you have.

And it's like a 250-year-old, it's this giant, you know the fucking year old it's this giant you know the fucking tree it's this giant tree it's this it's the fuck else you're gonna do it's gonna rot out and fall into your fucking house six stories high at least it's a it's massive this street it's gonna take you all your power lines on your property everything's going down gonna crush my office for christ's sake we're gonna be so i'm gonna be sitting on a fucking branch recording if this thing goes down so in may of 1980 near anaheim california dorothy jane scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell she insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment while he waited for his prescription dorothy went to grab

her car to pick him up at the exit but but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that

if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us

and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery

Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Our studio's now a treehouse, everybody. When it comes to that you basically got to go how much is it to save it how much is it to cut it down which one's cheaper all right we'll save it yeah that's and why is that barely cheaper than cutting down this enormous tree and i can't yeah that it was i think it was cheaper to cut it down than to save it honestly i think it was cheaper

because it was like a whole bunch of shit they had to do and they had to like chain a thing up to put these to take pressure off of it. It's crazy. But I feel like a dick because it's this giant old tree. And I don't it's I feel like like an obligation to the area to fucking keep all this old. I can't destroy this thing that's been here longer than the town. That's what I mean. Longer than, you know, like George Washington could have leaned against this tree.

I'm going to fucking cut it down. I just feel weird. I watched my house adult. That's crazy. It's yeah, I Washington could have leaned against this tree. I'm going to fucking cut it down. I just feel weird about that. This tree watched my house adult. That's crazy. Yeah, I can't do it. So anyway, he's a tree surgeon, and they have two boys, but they end up getting a divorce. Okay.

Okay. So at this point in 84, they're not married, but they are in a huge custody battle. So that's always fun. That's a good time. Those go hand in hand battle. So that's always fun. That's a good time. Hand in hand. Absolutely. Those are always fun. Next up is her sister,

Marlene. She has a sister named Debbie here, Deborah and Sims Bannister. Yep. Sims is their maiden name, Marlene and Debbie and Bannister. She's married. So got it.

Deborah and Sims Bannister goes by Debbie. Their parents are Franklinlin and iris sims they seem to come from a nice family frank was an insurance agent okay that's nice um in the early 1970s he and the girls these two before they got married off young here yeah moved to a trailer park just outside gainesville hell yeah and right after they moved to this trailer park outside gainesville which is the optimal conditions to raise your children obviously great place to be both of the girls dropped out of high school and got married may as well perfect isn't that nice yeah fuck it so you know you've done a bang-up job when both

of your kids are before their junior year they're just married off and out of the house you know you've done a bang-up job when both of your kids are, before their junior year, they're just married off and out of the house. You know you've really helped mature them at that point, right? Married off, done with school, and living in trailers in Gainesville. Yay. With guys well older than them, by the way. Right. With guys who can legally buy alcohol. Perfect.

Awful. Excellent. And in the United States, that's 21. Right. Because in the rest of the world, if you're here in England, you're like, yes, 18 the united states that's 21 right because in the rest of the world if you're here in england you're like yes 18 no it's 21 here so go back to that's how it is so deborah um she ended up uh when she was 19 she got married to joe bannister and she started dropped out and started seeing him earlier. He was Joe Bannister. Okay. Got it.

Yeah. Joe Bannister, who was 12 years older than her. Okay. So both girls picked older guys. The 21 year old seems a little more, because if you're 15, you think 21 year olds are cool.

Oh, and they're so smart. Because they're like a grownup kid at 21. You know what I mean? You're still a kid, sort of, and to a kid, you sort of look like a kid, but you have like a job-up kid at 21. You know what I mean? You're still a kid, sort of. And to a kid, you sort of look like a kid, but you have a job and an apartment and a fucking car and all this stuff. You know how to write a check.

Yeah, you have a checkbook and you're buying fucking hard liquor. It's amazing. This is crazy. You're doing it. I could see a girl or a young guy being attracted to someone who's 21 because that just feels like someone who's a little cooler than you. But 12 years older, that's like, oh, you're a grown up. He was 31 at the time. Oh, dear.

They got married. So, I mean, that's a lot. It feels like it's not. It's legal, but it's also kind of weird. And 12 years isn't that much of an age difference and later on if one was 46 and the other was 34 we'd never say a fucking word about it you know you're looking a lot earlier than me all right 72 and 60 we'd go good for you people for finding love late in your life terrific hey yeah hats off to both of you but this is 31 and 19 is oh my god

not only that he's had like experience. He served five years in the Air Force. He's in other countries. Yeah. He's been to war. That was in the Vietnam era. Yeah. And before he came home and got a job with Western Electric.

So he's a grown up, like a full on grown up. Like, yeah, I was in the service for five years. And now, you know, I take a shift down at the electric plant there. And she's like, well, you know, isn't Leaf fucking Garrett cute? What's happening? It's the 70s at the time. How Florida is that? Your electric company is called Western Electric.

And you couldn't be more Eastern. Well, the Eastern's just Alma Walter, and then once you get from there, it's Western. We get away from that. And also, not only is he an Air Force war veteran who works with the electric company, he also has already been married twice. Of course he has. Why not? That's what you love your teenage daughter to marry a marriage to marry a twice divorced almost your age right vietnam war veteran who works for

the electric company perfect very stable man this is great i mean at that point i mean he's got a steady job and all that i guess that's what they were looking for but also he's already been divorced twice it's a lot um now by 84 though she they're married she's married to joe that's still they're still together still kicking it's got marlene and cecil though they have divorced and are in the middle of a custody battle okay okay now debbie and marlene sit around and they're like how can i how can we get Cecil to be cool about this child custody thing? You know what I mean? How can we get him to understand that we mean business? Damn it.

OK, so they said, hmm, maybe, well, maybe we can find a way to scare him. Maybe we can scare him. We can have somebody like go up and be like, oh, you better fucking be nice to your fucking ex-wife and give her the kids or I'm going to kick your ass or something. Maybe we can have him like shook up and scared. Run the agreement based on fear. Yeah. That seems very healthy as a very healthy way to decide the living arrangements of your children, by the way. That's that's good. Smart. That's thinking. Yeah. Wow. It works for some places and some people but i don't think in family court it's the best choice probably not probably not well i mean i'm gonna give her custody what made you change your mind sir well a large man a large burly man approached me in

the street and uh threatened my physical safety if i didn't so i'm gonna go ahead and give in oh well by all means go with a man said it was A man said it was good for my kneecaps. I don't know. It's going to be better for me. I'm going to be healthier if I do this. I don't know if he meant like I'd have more time to eat good foods if the kids weren't around, more time to take care of myself. I'm told if the kids live with me, my blood will be on the outside of my body. So I don't think that'll

support life i tried to think about it didn't sound good so i'm gonna go ahead and sign these papers so they're thinking but who who can do this though i mean honestly if you're a normal person normal people don't know people who are willing to do this right just your average think about it right now everybody's sitting out there who could you go to to literally scare someone into signing their children away and here's the other thing if you can think of somebody real quickly get that person out of your life right yeah they're probably i guess stop what you're doing i can think of a few which is terrifying yeah right never be around them again no so they don't know anybody though they can't think of anybody and they're like also we don't want it to be like you know one of our friends doing it then can't be a traceable yeah cecil

know who it is and it'll be less threatening at that point if you see some stranger that's so this guy means business so debbie i don't know if she she picked this magazine up in search of this or if she just happens to be a reader or if the fact that her husband was in vietnam he might get this magazine and she was just flipping through it but soldier of fortune magazine somehow comes into debbie's hands that's a real magazine soldier of fortune is an absolutely a real magazine hilarious it of Fortune is absolutely a real magazine. Hilarious. It's just ads for Rambo knives and horse shit like that. These binoculars are great for cosplaying.

Yeah, or for ex-soldiers or for douchebags. Douchebags and ex-soldiers. That's basically what it is. Not that they're not the same group. We're saying ex-soldiers and also douchebags and i'm sure there's a venn diagram where it crosses over of douchebag ex-soldiers there's douchebag everybody's so there has to be that in the middle somewhere so she sees an ad in soldier of fortune magazine yeah and here is the ad i have the actual ad here, which is hilarious.

Professional for hire, in all capital bold letters. Professional for hire, weapons specialist, jungle warfare, pilot, highly skilled individuals or teams, discreet and confidential, any assignments, U.S. and overseas, WSG. I don't know what that means. World Series genius. I think it's World Series game one. It means something. It means something. So that's the ad she sees and she goes, oh, sounds perfect.

I don't know how she. For what? For what? Weapon specialist, jungle warfare. He'll go scare Cecil. what for what weapon specialist jungle warfare he'll go scare cecil this seems like he probably would you know blow cecil up from a helicopter maybe or something that's what he's yeah she's hiring fucking rambo well we can uh hang an m60 out of that chopper and just we'll we'll just take that whole village out on the way over boy i'll I tell you something. She's hiring Gary Busey from Tommy Boy.

This is insane, dude. Yeah, this is crazy stuff. So she says, this is the one. Yeah. I like it. This guy sounds like my kind of guy. Let me give him a call. So she does.

All right. And she picks up the phone and dials Mr. Weapon Specialist. Mr. Weapon. Hello, are you the jungle warfare pilot hi would you scare a man into weapon weapon specialist something isn't it uh maybe maybe maybe yeah i have no idea what it is i'm not even gonna we're not gonna speculate because we're wrong we're always wrong we're never right when it comes to shit like that. So she calls this idiot here, and she's like, I am going to get this done because, like I said, this is the exact qualifications you need to have a guy give up every other weekend with his kids. So the guy's name is John Wayne Hurd.

Yes, John Wayne. His parents named him. Hurd. John Wayne Hurd. So here he is, his parents named him. Heard. John Wayne Heard. So here he is. Hearn, not Heard. H-E-A-R-N. Hearn.

Hearn. Okay. 1945, he's born here. So he's a couple years older than the rest of the group here. This man is real. He's a real guy named John Wayne Hearn. He put this ad in Soldier of Fortune magazine. Hilarious. He's a real man. He's a real guy named john wayne john wayne hearn he put this ad in soldier of fortune magazine hilarious he's a real man he's a big fuck too six four 275 jesus big burly son of a bitch here now

a little bit of his background his mom's name is mary watson okay and his mom was 17 when she was pregnant and her husband had been killed in world war ii so it's like late 1944 dead husband husband knocked her up went to the war got killed so now she's 17 and pregnant yeah somehow this is her she must have been a fast talker somehow mary got remarried before the son was born within nine months yes met and rocked up a new marriage a new guy pre-18 as a 17 year old she's already got two husbands baby she's a widow baby on the way yeah this yeah she she would rock a multi-level marketing like nobody's business she this woman have a pink Cadillac in five years. Oh, Jesus. She's making money off so many people.

So she somehow does that. John Wayne is born, and they said that she was clamped to him all the time when John Wayne was born. Just, your dad's dead. You're not going anywhere. And just mothered him and they said he acted everyone said that she acted like he was the only human being on the face of the earth little john wayne she even had other children but oh with the new husband as important as john no everyone to john was the the little prince of everything and then the other kids were the other kids. The other kids.

It's described as a fascination and obsession with John. What is that? She's in love with him in a weird motherly way. It's very strange. Always favored over the other kids, which causes rifts in the house, obviously. Everyone said no matter what he did did could do no wrong in his mother's eyes huh the other kids would be disciplined and shit not john john wayne was a different story you didn't want to discipline him or anything like that so anybody if anything

happened if he did something she would blame somebody else for it well he only did that because of this and that it's their fault not his fault how dare you talk about my little john wayne like that he's perfect he is just perfect he's an angel but mommy's little angel little john wayne angel mommy's little man that's him he's like the kid in a league of their own that's what i picture him running up and down the the bus with hands full of chocolate, slapping ladies. Still well, Angel. So everybody's kind of annoyed by this. Even when he ends up enlisting in the United States Marine Corps. Yeah.

He signs up for the fucking Marine Corps. She didn't care. She was still up his ass. She wanted to go? While he was in boot camp, she often snuck into the camp perimeter to watch him do his early morning physical training drills.

You don't come to PT, Mom. What are you doing here? She would sneak into a federal military facility, which, to watch her son do calisthenics. What the fuck? What a weird lady is this? That's weird. And a one and a two, Johnny.

Keep going. You're doing great. What happens when they yell at him and tell him to do push-ups? Because even if you do everything right, they're going to yell at you and tell you to do push-ups. You stop yelling at my John. I'm the drill sergeant. You do push-ups now, lady. What the fuck are we talking about?

Imagine how embarrassing that would be. Ah, mom. He's our job now. You don't own him. I own him now. Mom, I'm in the Marines now. Stop. You gotta stop, mom.

I'm a killing machine. You may own his heart. We own his ass. I'm a killing machine, mom. Stop. Mom, I kill them all and let God sort them out born to kill mom born to kill leave me alone we're a department of the army mom the men's department get out of here get out you're not welcome mom if uncle sam wanted me to have a mom he'd have he'd have issued me one

he'd have issued me one that's what the drill sergeant said and i believe it bob oh man she's yelling at the drill sergeant slapping the hat off his head probably bopping him one she snuck in to watch not just once often this was a common thing like they'd be like oh christ is that, oh there she is again. Here's Mary again, this fucking lunatic. So things are a little weird here. When it came time for his duty station assignments, Mary raised a fucking insane, crazy mess with military officials

until they decided to finally station him near home so she'd shut the fuck up she bullied the united states marine corps into doing what she wanted good assignment can you imagine they probably said if we send him somewhere she doesn't like she's never gonna leave us alone ever we're never gonna get rid of this lady she's gonna fly to saigon who cares i swear to God. She's going to be peeking over a fence on the demilitarized zone. She's going to be hanging out in the DMZ dodging landmines. Mom, you can't be there.

No one's allowed to be. Mom. Okay. That's embarrassing. That's very embarrassing for the Marines. You know he got picked on because his mom came and watched. No one else's parents are doing that. No.

So, Jesus Christ, man. By the time he's here, he's 6'4", like I said, 250 pounds. Wow. And it's not just the career, the military thing. She's also meddling in his love love life telling him he should break up with this one this one's a nice girl she's just trying to run his life like he's a seven-year-old but he's a grown man who literally joined the marine corps which people used to do that to get away from their family and he can't even get away where does he have to go prison like we're

fuck their family they did that to get away from the state. Like, everything involved in their lives. It's wild. He can't even escape his mom. No, he can't. He does three tours in Vietnam. Three. I assume she had to let him go at that point. I don't think she was over there hanging out in a fucking rice patty with him.

Here's fresh. Did you pack fresh socks, John? You're going to need them. Come on. I've never heard of more than two he did three three i guess yeah that's what he said um because he's a pilot i guess maybe that was more needed i suppose if you're that that's a skill i would assume um after this he ends up having partially because of his mom because his mom will tell him when he shouldn't be with a woman anymore um he'll end up having

four wives oh four over like a 12 year period he has four wives and several long-term girlfriends in there all of these end in disaster um all of whom will later say they left john because of his mother and her intrusive overbearing ways. She drove four wives away in a decade. Unbelievable. 15 years. That's impressive. Yeah. That's impressive.

So by 1984, you know, he's working kind of jobs here and there. He's doing some stuff. He's alone. It's just him and his mom all the time now, which is just what she wanted. Yeah. You know, but he's 40 years old at this point, 39 years old. It's like, hey, mom, for Christ's sake here, I've gone through four marriages. I feel like a failure. So he tries.

He does a bunch of work. He gets a job here for a month and quits and then gets a job for two months over here. He says none of them offered the excitement like it was in Vietnam. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not allowed to kill people here. It's a problem. Very few, not a lot of explosives I get to set up. It's not as fun.

In the grocery store here, I can take an avocado, pretend to pull the pin out of it, and launch it over the aisle. I launch it like six aisles over. Every once in a while, a child screams, so it makes me feel better. Sometimes I hit a housewife. That's fine. You never know. She gets pissed.

I'm telling you, you hit the kid too. She gets pissed. You got to duck down and do the crawl through the cereal aisle below the Count Chocula. So he loved it there. So he just said it was on a whim he places an advertisement in soldier of fortune magazine which is the one we told you by the way he read soldier of fortune religiously it was oh the new soldier of fortunes here and he was so weird his evening is all set at that point. So that's the weapons specialist, jungle warfare pilot, highly skilled individuals that are that's the one he puts in there. So is that he envisions in his mind?

He put this in here. He envisioned basically the A-team television show. put together a team of mercenaries and we're going to focus on covert operations and clandestine killings of you know dictators and that sort of thing around the world around the world they think they're going to be hired by like you know the the the rebellion in some country to take out their their dictator leader the cia does that already we don need. That's what they did for decades. We don't need you for this. Does he envision himself as the leader? Yes. No, no.

He's absolutely putting this team together. He's the guy with the ad in Soldier of Fortune. The guy that loves when a plan comes together. They might have skills, but nobody else thought to put an ad in a magazine. Obviously, he's the leader, clearly. So that's what he wants to do. Clandestine dictator killings, you know, as one does.

He learns pretty fast though that instead of that, he's getting all sorts of just domestic stuff. People looking for hits? Yeah. Greedy spouses is what he said, just constantly. His ad appeared in four issues of the magazine in late 1984.

And he was also another ad he had seeking former Marine and Vietnam veterans and weapons specialists with jungle warfare expertise for high risk assignments in the U.S. or overseas. So he said it's either killing dictators or like bodyguard security work. Like, oh, you know, they'll hire him to like, you know, oversee a security operation. He'll come in and make sure the venue is clean and, you know, all the exits and set up all the people and, you know, set up there with a sniper rifle. I don't know what he's supposed to be doing. Hilariously, we're laughing about this from 1984. I guarantee this same fucking ad exists today a million times on the Internet. Yes. Tons all over the place.

Just not in a physical magazine here. So he was working at this very moment as a truck driver, but obviously that's not as exciting as you can't stick an M60 out the window. Yeah. Not a lot of Charlie lining I-40. No, it's just not a lot. It's very rare, do you find that normally? Sometimes around the Oklahoma City area, but outside of that, you never know. So this is in the Atlanta area.

He's driving a truck. The ad generated 10 to 20 calls a day. A day? I thought like once a month maybe someone would call that stupid ad. 10 to 20 calls a day. So many he had to hire an answering service to take care of them. You'd call an answering service. For murder?

Yeah, for different things. A lot of it was can you spy on my husband? Can you do shit like that? Can you spy on my husband? Can you do shit like that? Can you spy on my wife? Can you, whatever. I listed a couch two weeks ago. It took me three weeks to sell it. I got four people interested.

Four. Well, if you were offering- This guy's got 10 a day. If you were offering jungle specialism and shit like that, I bet you would have gotten a lot more hits. I should have listed it as a jungle specialist sofa. sofa yeah willing to kill your ex-husband that would have fucking you would have gotten a lot of hits on that ad jimmy that would have been the one right there it was willing to buy this couch willing to annoy your husband because it's old and ugly oh my god so 10 to 20 hires an answering service to unbelievable take care of the extreme volume here.

He said, quote, probably 90 percent of the calls I received concerned illegal activities. Yeah, because you listed it. It sounds like illegal activities. Even the way it sounds kind of everything's a little coded. Like I'm not saying exactly what I'm saying. If he said we'll kill people for money, it would seem less real than what he put. It sounds like a website where you would see it and go, ah, this is the feds. This is.

Yeah, that's what that is. OK, I see. So he said three to five of those daily concerned killings. Oh, three to five calls a day. That's how many people wanted to murder people in 1984. Unbelievable. While others concern drug transportation and sales a lot of times. Can you get 10 keys into the country through your clandestine operations?

Let's hire a mercenary from the jungle. I mean, why not? Give it to him. Let him do it. Let him take the rap. Either that or also illegal arms transportation and sales and assaults as well holy shit so can you get me a whole bunch of guns you know yeah military grade guns and beat the shit out of that guy so wow so through this ad he meets

four vietnam veterans oh boy these guys here uh guys named don jeff david and warren those are his buddies here those are going to be his carry out the assignments guy okay he claims that i don't believe this at all he claims that one of the guys whom he would not identify obviously that means it's super real you know that's i love that when people are like, I'll give you this information, but I can't tell you that. So that means you think it's real, obviously, because I said, you know, now I'm being secretive. So, oh, he must be telling the truth. He says that one of them whom he would not identify had been involved in a coup in Haiti and was in prison there for a time in Haiti, in Haiti. He went to Haiti, obviously, to overthrow the government.

And that doesn't work out sometimes and now he's in prison over there but i can't tell you who that is though it's the most unstable government on the planet so probably there's a coup designed every day and one of my guys yeah was there it's a hurricane could come through at any time it's a problem so there is a that's crazy so most of the calls were a lot of Vietnam veterans looking for work. So he had a lot of like – he could pick and choose his team basically. He had a lot of guys for that. And he said that these people were willing to use their combat training to do whatever needed to be done.

Oh, my. Whatever. But one call he said stood out from everybody. Oh? One call. And that's a call from a young woman named Debbie Ann Sims Bannister. So he said it was a young woman. She had a sultry voice.

Sexy. Sexy, sultry voice. And was calling because her family needed help. She didn't say much more. She only left a telephone number. She was like, hi, what's happening there, stud? My family needs help. So much help.

Oh, God, they need help. Help them. Here's the number. Hope to hear from you, big boy. And he's like, I got to call that shit back. A sexy voice called for hire. Wow. So he imagined a beautiful woman, he said, just this gorgeous woman.

And he said, I was intrigued, and I called that one back. That was the whole angle of 1-900 numbers in the 90s. He was like, oh, shit. Well, thankfully, the 1-900 numbers didn't asks. He was like, oh, shit. Well, thankfully, the 1-900 numbers didn't ask anyone to kill for them. Right. Hi. Did you come yet?

Good. I need you to kill my father. Yeah. Break in through the back door. For $9.99 a minute. You're going to sit back early. I'll put a gun in the garage. Oh, yeah. i'll put a gun in the garage oh yeah can you can you believe six hundred dollars an hour to hear

that that's how lonely people were yeah higher prices than a lawyer to jerk off to a hideous person with a hot boy well you could hire a live person to not be on the phone back then for less than that i would assume what do you mean six hundred dollars an hour no but i hire an actual lady an actual lady to come over and talk dirty oh yeah probably three four of them you could have gotten yeah for six hundred dollars you probably could have gotten to do anything you wanted. American psycho style. No, not you. Next one. What do you got? It's an asshole. Eat it. No, I don't like your voice. How about you?

Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery+, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group.

Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan

and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max,

starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. you get your podcasts. with a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing.

This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes.

You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. He's a dude, but he'll do. It sounds great. Yeah, sounds good enough. It sounds great. Yeah, it sounds good enough. So he imagined this beautiful woman, and he agreed to meet her, ooh, halfway between their houses in the sexiest of locations.

Yeah. Ashonis. Oh, yeah. Ashonis parking lot. Get in that booth and get it on, baby. This is a fucking Randy Travis song. Jesus Christ. Ashonis.

Which is, how would you describe a Shoney's to people? Shoney's is, Jesus, there were Stucky's. I mean, it's a truck stop that has a little, like a corner mart inside that has like trinkets and stupid shit. If the waitress from Denny's had a best friend and she worked at shoney's she would constantly be telling her girl you're better than that i'll let you know when we're hiring okay i yeah i'll let you know first i'll tell my manager all about you that's yeah you're right i'll let you know when when wendy retires she'd been here 46 years. It's got to be coming.

She limps worse every day. Wendy's looks down. Yeah, Shoney's is gross. So she introduces herself. Hi, I'm Debbie Ann Sims-Bannister. Oh, Shoney's. But you can call me Debbie. Oh, yeah. Bitch, no sexier name than debbie so right away he's hard so she goes on to tell john about her sister marlene and this awful nasty

ex-husband of hers named cecil oh he's a mean mean man and we need to scare him and all this stuff so on during this first meeting she leaned across the table and this is a weird move and kissed him on the tip of his nose oh fuck yes which is a weird move and he's just like i love you i love you so much yeah yeah it didn't take a lot for him and he is just whoa yeah smitten fucking smitten so she tells him cecil's an evil man very evil see he's abusive toward the children oh beats them so he can't have custody of them. He's beating them. He's mean to them. And he's mean to Marlene, too. And on top of all that, he's an alcoholic and he tries to keep the kids away from their

mother who loves them. They're nurturing, nurturing mother. And you think that John Wayne would be like, whew, that sounds like a real relief for those kids to get away from their mother, you know, for him. But no, he's upset about it. And he said, not only that, Cecil is turning the kids against the entire Sims family. The whole fam? Their grandma and grandpa.

Crying over this. This evil, evil man. He beats them, manipulates them so that the family hates them. Well, he's shit-faced, mind you. Wouldn't you call the cops? No. Not a mercenary? No, you call a mercenary, Jimmy.

It's Florida in 1984. You call a mercenary. We need to willingly stop all this. You immediately look in Soldier of Fortune magazine for a solution to your problems. That's what you do. So John's sitting here melting. He's been kissed on the tip of the nose. Can't stop thinking about it.

Oh, he's just rock hard. He can't stop dealing with it. There's a beautiful woman here, and she's in trouble now. He's got to rescue her. That's how he feels like. Yeah, he's in distress. Sure. The way he's looking at it she's begging for

her nephews to be rescued away from this monster yeah as a man how could he deny her you know point yeah at the same time he's got to get paid though this is a job there is yeah there is that small but he wants to be the guy to do it he said i can do this for you i am the guy for this job yeah i want that don't call any more people at a soldier of fortune magazine it's the buck stops here okay throw that mag away that is you don't need that anymore so and she said that she i don't think she thought he was as like a real hardcore jungle killer like he says he is either at this point because i mean she's kissing him on the nose and manipulating him so yeah at the same time she she starts you know being very friendly with him and you know oh we should talk on talk on the

phone and all this stuff somehow over the course of the happenings here, it goes from you need to scare him, you need to scare him, to, well, I mean, just kill him, I guess. Oh, boy. We should kill. Why would we just scare Cecil? While you're scaring him, you might as well just kill him. That way we don't ever have to deal with him again because, I mean, if you scare him, he might pop up a year from now being a dick again. And also, I mean, the fear is fear of murder. So let's just skip the fear.

Let's just skip the middleman and go right to murder. So he says he'd do it. It's going to cost $30,000, though. Wow. Which is a realistic number. That's how she knew he wasn't a cop. Because like we said, if they quote you a price and you can afford it, that's a cop. That's not a real hitman.

Get away from that. You're going to jail. Murder is expensive. Good, well good well done murder very expensive and he said 30 grand and in 72 a brand new car was five to eight grand yeah you can't you right you can't you can't this is several cars nobody has 84 though this is oh it's 84 okay so you're still looking at you're still looking at uh 10 12 grand you could buy a fucking house in some place this is three cars this is three cars or a house this is not bad here but debbie debbie talks him down i didn't realize you could haggle over murder prices she fucking kills people like it's a flea market like she's at a yard sale and he's like i don't know that lamp cord looks awfully frayed how about five dollars instead of seven she this isn't that yeah but

when you're at the dealership haggling on a car that guy doesn't also murder people that's what i mean if you don't like the deal you say how about 30 or i'll make you fucking disappear too you say fuck you if you don't like the deal yeah this guy is a mercenary she talks him down not only talks him down this isn't from 30 to 25 from 30 to 10 is a big talk down she got 20 she got 60 off ten thousand dollars is the final price. 65% off. Now, here's the other thing. I don't know what Marlene and Debbie expected a man like this to charge. You would expect it would be expensive. You wouldn't expect he'd be like, I don't know, $300 or something.

But they didn't have $10,000. Of course not. Or $30,000. It's not like they talked them down to an amount they had. They didn't have $10,000. Of course not. Or $30,000. It's not like they talked them down to an amount they had. They didn't have $10,000 or $30,000. What if you do it for $10,000 that I don't have? That I don't have. But they can get it.

They can get it. How do you, if you're two enterprising young women, how can you make $10,000 really fast? Well, here's the thing, James. At $250 a month over five years that's roughly ten thousand dollars if we can we put together a payment plan can we stretch this out can we lay away cecil's murder is that possible kill now pay later program do you have it all they offer do they offer 10 grand in blowies no no no no that would at least be fine that's your body do what you want um no no in order to raise the funds their

enterprising idea here is to burn their grandmother's home to the ground and collect the insurance money oh my god to burn their grandma out of her home that's their idea so in order to commission a murder we're going to commission insurance fraud and make grandma homeless arson we're gonna homicize our grandma through arson in order to further. You're deep at this point. That's triple aggravators, isn't it? This is a lot going on here. And this is what Debbie and Marlene are like.

Yeah, this is a good idea. We'll burn grandma's house. And they do it. What? They do it. Wow. And you know who they get to help them? Who?

The mercy. Frank and Iris, mom and dad. Oh, Jesus Christ. They go, yes, let's burn grandma's house to the ground. This is fine. To pay for. We'll burn grandma's house to pay to get Cecil out of the picture. It's worth it.

We'll take grandma in. It's fine. We got an extra bedroom. Holy shit. So the whole family's in on this scheme to kill Cecil. This is very Florida florida oh it gets better it gets more florida because john and debbie start having a huge affair just a real rip-roaring affair they call it there's no now now it all makes sense they call it stark because

these people are stark raving mad stark raving fucking it's short for stark raving lunatics is what it's short for it's insane it used to be called the stark raving lunatic asylum and they've they've dialed it back since the 1800s john used to call his sexual experiences with debbie he'd call them each one a wild ride he'd call it jesus she'd give me one hell of a wild ride he'd say boy really and after every wild ride debbie would then use that opportunity they're laying next to each other enjoying their post coital bliss and and debbie would start saying i'm just so worried about Marlene and what Cecil's going to do to her. And we really need to take care of that a lot.

That's on your mind? Not I got to pee before I get a UTI? No, I just want the boys to be back home with their mother. And he's like, my dick is still wet. What are we talking about? Really? You're going to need cranberry juice if you don't get out of this bed. In that state though

a guy will agree to just about anything we're like yeah yeah totally cool yeah no i yeah that's good hand towel quick this is just gross so january 6th 1985 okay cecil um who by the way um doesn't beat up his boys or the family or do anything of course not um he's known to drink sometimes he's not known to be a severe alcoholic or anything like that he's known to love his boys and be a decent guy basically loves his boys he's fine he likes to drink yeah he married a 15 year old so let's not let's not give him too much pass let's wait but yeah murderable maybe that's an exaggeration you know what i mean here so um at this time john wayne what he does is he slips onto the porch on january 6 1985 slips onto the porch of cecil's trailer

okay because obviously he lives in a trailer yeah And takes aim with his gun through the front window and shoots Cecil while he's sleeping on his couch. Oh, that is far from mercenary. That is not a mercenary killer. That's the most chicken shit. What kind of bullshit? He didn't even break in. No. He couldn't quietly break in, come and slit his throat fucking quickly.

He bucked a shot off through the window. Through a window. Yeah. This is why maybe he's not the experienced hitman that he might portray himself as here. So he shoots him through the window. Kills him. He's dead. Yeah.

Wow. Good shot at least. Yeah. That's good for him. So the Gainesville, Florida detectives were positive that Marlene is behind the killing because they've been fighting so much here. And she collected $30,000 life insurance from his life insurance policy that he had here. So police also thought that maybe Marlene's family could be involved, but they could never get any evidence on all. They had no evidence.

Yeah. Nothing. All they questioned everybody. They all said, don't know what you're talking about and so nothing else if you have a five four people in a conspiracy all saying we don't know what you're talking about it's kind of hard to crack that sure no physical evidence what do you do so nothing happens with it it goes cold what's cold so now let's talk about joe bannister debbie's husband who's 42 at the time here the affair continues between debbie and john wayne obviously even after cecil's death but now after they're done with their wild rides rather than complain about how ceil needs to go. Oh, Joe. Debbie starts to complain,

oh, man, my husband's abusing me now. Oh, now? He's just started abusing me recently. Okay. Yeah, he's abusing me a lot, though. He came from 20 years of no abuse to now he's just beating the shit out of me on a daily basis. Yeah, just always beating me up and yelling.

And she talked about his obsessive, controlling nature and the brutal, diabolical treatment that he inflicted on the two young children that they had. Sure. It's just this man is a horrible, horrible man. Terrible. And then she said, if only just just wish he would go away because then we could be together. Oh, oh, my goodness. And John said, really, we could be together. She said he said, well, you know, you should get a divorce and we'll be together.

And she said, yeah, but I'm that Joe. He's a mean guy and he's going to take the children away from me. I know it. If we get divorced, he's going to take the children. He's going to beat them and do terrible things to them and you know hang them up from a tree and beat them with broom handles you know all the terrible like a pinata just an awful thing cecil 2.0 wait and see yeah yeah it happens i don't know if the ghost of cecil inhabited this man and now he's evil i'm not sure how it works john but um here let me let me get up on top of you a minute does that make any sense now it does now so um debbie is the beneficiary of the life insurance policy and said if you if

we got rid of him think about how perfect it would be we could be together right the kids wouldn't have to put up with this kind of abuse and and I'll be able to use the insurance money, and we can build our dream house together. Oh. And we'll just be happily ever after, walking hand in hand on our throw-away picket fence. I mean, dream house. It's going to be beautiful.

They even opened a joint checking account together. Oh. Debbie and John Wayne here. Isn't this sweet? What's happening? Well, this is so you won't have to pay for it because what are we gonna do put it in my joint checking account with you come on it's a freebie i've been fucking you for a year give me a freebie here so not even a year it's a month later so around not february 2nd around midnight february 2nd, around midnight, February 2nd, 1985, around midnight, a 911 call comes into the Bradford County Sheriff's Office. Great.

Reporting a car crashed into a drainage ditch on a remote stretch of highway. Oh, he doesn't do it the same way every time? There's a car. Oh, no. This is, I mean, yeah, he doesn't live in a trailer, Joe, so how do you get to him? Oh, okay, yeah. It's different. His windows are a little better. Yeah. He's got, like, doors and, like in a trailer, Joe, so how do you get to him? Oh, okay, yeah. It's different. His windows are a little better.

Yeah. He's got, like, doors and, like, a foundation and shit. It's hard to... So the authorities converge on the scene, and they find Bannister, they find Joe Bannister dead behind the wheel of his car. Oh, wow. Crashed into a drainage ditch. He's covered in blood

yeah it's a terrible scene his vehicle though has minimal damage to it oh they're like wow there's like a dent up front and he looks like he like ran it off a cliff in an old movie and it like bounced off six rocks and exploded this is wild very very soft impact for a man who just rattled around the inside of this car. Everybody, I think he had medical examiner said he had weak skin. Any kind of jolting and all his blood comes out. It's just weak skin. It's a real bleeder, this one.

It's weird stuff. So his vehicle did that. So the investigators were like, we don't think this crash is the cause of death. Let's grab an autopsy on this guy. think this crash is the cause of death let's yeah grab an autopsy on this guy it's not like he was in a burning heap of a you know pile they had to get him out with the with the jaws of life they just opened his door and was like oh hey that doesn't look right yeah you are to shit you're right like they probably thought oh he's probably drunk in there you know what i mean oh no never mind so deborah is notified of her husband's passing.

We found your husband, Joe, in a ditch in a car. She broke down in tears, sobbing, sobbing. She said, we spent the night out with friends before we then we just drove home separately because we had driven. We were coming from different places. So we took separate cars and we hung out with our friends and drove home separately. And I just don't understand it. I can't imagine. places so we took separate cars and we hung out with our friends and drove home separately and i just don't understand it i can't imagine joe uh he drove he's such a good driver i mean he she was doing the whole deal yeah so they said um yeah that's okay um and she said oh i'll call

the funeral home and we'll make arrangements and they said well right now he's being taken to the county morgue to have an autopsy done and she said oh no absolutely not oh no autopsy on my husband no you can't do an autopsy she said quote well i'm not going to agree to an autopsy that's her quote to the police officer well now we're going to do two and yeah they were like hmm this is a florida highway patrol commander winston barber said, I informed her that was not a decision she could make. It was a matter of procedure. You know, with a suspicious death and all. Right.

We got to look into it. So the autopsy, not the autopsy, the autopsy, they open him up a little bit. And weird thing here, they were right. He didn't die from the car crash. Really? Not even from blunt force injuries or glass or anything. He didn't die from the car crash. Really? Not even from blunt force injuries or glass or anything. He died from two gunshot wounds. Two?

Two. Huh. Wow. Weird, right? It's really rare that, yeah. It's hard to put two in yourself. It's hard to put two. It's also very rare in a car accident for your car to crash and then your car to shoot you twice in the head.

That doesn't happen very often. That was a recall on the edsel though that's i and the pinto too that's what happened with the pintos in the 70s yeah i had to get those back in there pinto but it was called the pin 2 because it would put two in your head put two in you if you got hit from behind that's what it was and then it would blow up yeah they'd be like, he must have died from the explosion. They'd do an autopsy, and they'd be like, two in the head again. Fuck this car. These goddamn cars. Why do they build them with bullets in it?

I don't understand. Ford, why? Why? Somebody call Ford and tell them to stop putting the bullets in them. Why? On the assembly line? That's somebody's job. I understand.

You don't want to eliminate it. It's a union thing, maybe. I'm not sure. That's why Jimmy job. I understand. You don't want to eliminate it. It's a union thing, maybe. I'm not sure. That's why Jimmy Hoffa disappeared. He really wanted them to keep putting them. That's what happened, man. Shit happens back then. Damn you, Detroit.

Detroit! The investigator here said one of them was a grazing-type wound to the back of the head. The second shot went through the brain and caused his immediate death. Wow. Yes. So this happened on February 2nd, 1985, a deserted county road out there. They said Joe, described as a

quiet, well-liked, hard-working guy. They said that, you know, what the hell happened here? So, Jesus Christ. But Debbie and John are like, hey, now we can be together forever. Right. Now we have we each have something on each other. This is terrific here.

So February 5th, the Bradford County Sheriff's Office is contacted by investigators in a nearby county sheriff's office that were looking into the death of Cecil Beatty. Obviously, Marlene's husband. Now, he'd been murdered on January 6 6th obviously like we talked about so at that point they said hmm this is weird this is the county sheriff's uh detective farnell cole farnell his name is he said we had two sisters who within a period of weeks had their husbands murdered. Weird. That's weird. That's enough of a coincidence that we immediately started to look at it as a single person being involved. Like, this is, that's not usual. That's not normal.

Were both of your husbands in the mafia by any chance? No? Brothers-in-law both murdered within weeks. Weird. A month of each other. Less than a month. So, also, at Joe's funeral, Deborah is accompanied by John Wayne. Is that right? That's her date for her husband's funeral.

She's not good at this murder stuff, I don't think. No, she's not. Don't go to the funeral with the guy you're fucking and who killed the guy. She told people, though, this is my long lost cousin. Oh. The problem is at your husband's funeral you know who's there who's that your whole family all your family who goes i don't fucking know this guy who is this guy how lost is he what well yeah none of us i'm your mother and i don't know who he is so he's got to

be pretty lost if he's lost boy i must be so lost oof i, I am in the weeds here. So that's what she told people. Everyone was like, all righty. So they bring her. The cops want to talk to her and just bring him in for an interview. OK, so they bring him in for an interview. He said, my relationship with Deborah is strictly platonic. Yeah. Number one.

And they said, well, where were you on february 2nd february 2nd and january 5th right and he said i was with my mother in south carolina on the night of joe bannister's murder are you kidding me so you know where else would i be but with my mother obviously i'm a 40 year old man obviously i'm with my mother that's what i do yeah so they go and they go to south car Carolina to talk to Mary, his mom, to see if this is true. And she backs up that alibi 100%. He was with me. They said, what do you know about this Deborah Sims Bannister lady? And she said, I've never heard of her.

I don't know. I don't know who she is. I don't know who you're talking about. And they went, okay, well, that's that. So but while they have Mary, this is wild here. So, but while they have Mary, this is wild here, while they have the two of them in here, Farnell Cole, the investigator in the police department, while they're at the station, sees John Wayne's son in the station. John Wayne came with his son. So they strike up a conversation.

Hey, you know, I'm Detective So-and-so and I'm the kid and we'll chit chat a little bit here the cop says so mind if i show you a picture of somebody real quick now number one you're you can't really question kids without their parents present for anything i mean but he's not a suspect that's the thing right so this is more like if he's ever seen this person yeah this is like canvassing is the way they look at it. Like if you went on the street, you could ask anybody, have you seen this person? Have you seen this person? They're not a suspect in any crime. No.

So if he was a suspect, you'd have to have a parent with him, which if cops talk to my kids, I'd like to be there anyway, I think. I don't want cops talking to my kids. Not without me there to go, pep, pep, pep, pep. Yeah. You know, like. Maybe not. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not. kids not without me there to go you know like maybe yeah yeah maybe no so and any cop would tell you they wouldn't let their kids talk to cops either right you just you know they don't what happens yeah you don't know so shows a photograph of deborah to the sun yeah do you

know this lady and he said oh yeah that's new mama new mama new mama that's what he's having him call her oh my god platonic mom's never heard of her new mama and said oh yeah we recently all went to disneyland together oh they went on a fucking trip with the insurance money to fucking Disneyland. Disney World. No, land. He said land. All the way to California?

Oh my God. The world is two hours away. He said land. I don't know if that's a misquote and it's world or if they said to the kid, guess what? We're going to Disney. And he was like, Disney World. And they went, no, we're going all the way to california to oh my god disneyland so very excited now the mary obviously was lying about her alibi and everything here yeah she though didn't care for debbie though

she doesn't like her doesn't like deb. The few times they spoke on the phone, they met once in person. Mary believed her to be a, quote, low-rent whore. So she has two new nicknames, New Mama and Low Rent Whore are her two nicknames here, according to the family. Both are pretty solid. Both are hilarious. I'll say that much. So an old lady. Low rent whore.

An old Southern woman. An old South Carolina Southern woman calling you a low rent whore is hilarious. Or a fantastic compliment. It's so funny. And then the kid going, new mama? That's hilarious. I'm sorry, this is all very funny.

So, wow. Mary was even more pissed off or more mad at because she said that in her mind john seemed to just do whatever debbie wanted any demand boom he's on it i need this done kill my husband no problem jump how high that shit which i mean he has committed two murders for her. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you'll do a lot for a low rent whore. You do a lot for a good low rent whore. So after that, could that be the title of the show?

A low rent whore? Is that the? I don't think iTunes is allowing it. I don't think so. Probably not. I don't think we're allowed to do that. But it should be the title of the show for the rest of us is a low rant whore but only in a south carolina old lady's accent it's only funny if an old lady says it so yeah after all this happened joe's murder

investigators soon connected john and debbie to the crime at this point yeah all of you know there's electronic things, not email or anything, but phone records and things like that. Things are lining up. People see them and they witnesses. So they come sniffing around Mary's house. Let's talk to Mary a little more.

The mom, they think John's mom knows more than she's letting on. Okay. Since he's such a mama's boy and he lives at home all the time. He's always home. So she, wow. And also, the fact that she had called to the cops not only a low-rent whore, but had called her a white trash slut as well. I mean, aren't those interchangeable?

I was going to say, they're kind of white trash slut low rent whore is what she called it. Yeah, they are the same thing. Yeah. So she figured she didn't know that Joe had killed these people. She doesn't know as intricate shit like that. But she figured that if he did anything for the cops to be looking at, it was probably this one here, Debbie, who got him into the mess. So that's why she gave him an alibi she said but how does she know about her sexual proclivities and her looseness of well i think it's you had a man

kill your husband so you could move in with him is probably what she was going on did she did he tell his mother that she is doing fantastic things for me it's a wild ride you gotta see it man she says sultry voice things to me and just there's a lot of for the murder fantastic does he just get to snap his fingers and she'll do things like does he just like snap his fingers and then her lips are like a code firmly pressed around it i don't know maybe it seems like no it seems like she would be the finger snapper i think yeah maybe who knows it seems like he's just real happy to have her around mama watch and and mary keeps getting on john about her get rid of that fucking girl what is wrong with you blah blah

john said but i love her mom i love her you don't understand more than any other woman i've ever been with i love her she's the one more than any of my wives or girlfriend well except for you mama of course yeah obviously except for you so at the same time this is going on jean is finding out that debbie really likes to spend a lot of money she's a spender boy yeah that's why they're like hey disney world's two hours away and she's like no we need first class tickets all of us it'll be 20 times more expensive to do it this way we're going to anaheim for a much smaller version yeah for one that's a third of the size maybe so they said that he said that was a little disconcerting he couldn't keep up with her spending. Yeah.

She's going out and having shopping sprees, and he'd come home and be like, holy shit. She would then nag him more and more about, we need to make more money, got to make more money, how come we don't have more money? Yeah. So he's like, Jesus, I'm killing fast as I can, sweetheart. Christ almighty. I'm a mercenary. Good Lord. I got to wait for the calls to come in.

Yeah. Enter another guy here. Okay. Oh, boy. Robert Vannoy Black Jr. Really? Yes. Bob, he goes by.

Bob Black Jr. Mm-hmm. Bob Black, born in 1947, so he's a couple years younger than John. I even have his social security number if you need it there. Oh, we don't need that. We're good. Well, it really doesn't matter if you have it we'll put it that way no it really wouldn't matter i won't give it up this one today it's yeah it's it's

in a certain pile so um he was he lives in brian texas b-r-y-a-n texas yeah and he responded to john's ad oh and soldier of fortune it's still running by the way he's just i'd be like i think this ad's got me in enough shit already i'm gonna but i think you pay for like a year of it in advance he start he put this ad in for excitement he's getting his money's work he's you know what he is he's getting pussy and murder and uh he's getting fucking uh like interrogations and everything else that's That's very exciting. You bet. Awfully goddamn exciting. This ad, by the way, was a $40

ad it cost him to put in. $40. All this for $40. Wow. There isn't a theme park in the country that will give you this much excitement for $40. Right? There is nothing. No offer of adrenaline for $40 that will give you this much of six flags.

Ain't got shit on Soldier of Fortune magazine. The adrenaline dump alone. Oh, man. Now, Bob Black is later described in court documents as, quote, a frustrated faux Rambo who was a troubled Vietnam veteran as well as an Eagle Scout. He's been in an organization since this boy could walk. Very organized. Well, let's find out.

He grew up in Haskell, Texas and he's a very, I guess everybody thought he was going to be something special when he was a kid. Is that right? Everybody, he was like one of the most promising people around here. Big and Boy Scouts at a young age, rose to an Eagle Scout and even volunteered to serve as a den chief to the younger boys in the Cub Scout troop. Is that right?

Oh, yeah. Won numerous honors in scouting as a young man, including the Eagle Scout. That's a thing. He played football. He ran track. I saw his grades. All A's and B's, by the way, in high school. Of course.

All A's and B's. Ran track. Played football. Played coronet in the school band. He played the coronet? He played in the band. Played football. Ran track.

Did well in school. Teachers giving him recommendations for college and wow just a shining beacon of hope here this guy in a small town boy yeah doing great in 64 he was chosen by his teachers to represent the school at boys state which i guess was some uh like a trivia, not a trivia, like some learning B. I don't know. Some shit like that. One of those. Geography B or something. Trivia B. Some shit, yeah. Some knowledge B, I guess you'd call it.

Just knowing general shit. He decides to go to Texas A&M University. So he's going to go to school. He's going to do his thing. He studies chemical engineering at Texas A&M. He has a great future. Yeah, chemical engineer.

I wouldn't even know where to start with that. I could never think to be a chemical engineer in a million years. But two years into Texas A&M and his chemical engineering, he drops out. Why, you ask? Because he has a bigger calling well to join the marines yeah to go to vietnam yeah there's a conflict he's charlie sheen and platoon is what he is he wants to fix this he wants to be a part of it and that's what charlie sheen did back in that in platoon his character drops out of college because he didn't think for him he said it wasn't

fair the kids who couldn't afford college had to come here and he did and that was a whole thing whereas for him it's different for him it's because his father was in uh world war ii and volunteered out of you know sense of patriotism so bob thought that maybe i could do the same thing yeah that's what you do so bob he wanted to fly with the air force that was what he first. So Bob, he wanted to fly with the Air Force. That was what he first was going to do. He wanted to be a pilot. No, not even. He said later on that he ended up joining the Marines instead because the recruiter, the Air Force recruiter, was, quote, outmatched by the Marine recruiter. He said he was outmatched by a, quote, patriotic and rousing appeal from the Marine Corps recruiter he said he said he was outmatched by a quote patriotic and rousing appeal from the

marine corps recruiter we're more patriotic than they are that's what they said so he was like i gotta do it they got cooler nicknames that's what it is that's all it is yeah so he decides to do this and to volunteer for service at the height of the vietnam, too, by the way. This is like 1968 we're talking about. The most body bags coming back. Oh, tons. His family, his dad wasn't like, oh, I'm so proud of you. He said, what the fuck are you talking about? This is an entirely

different war, son. Yeah. I did that so you could do that, not this. So you don't have to. Go engineer chemicals and shit. And this is every night is just caskets on the do go engineer chemicals and shit and this is every night is just caskets on the news coming home and this is a lot you're seeing that going i don't want my fucking kid going there a lot of people did this you know even if they were pro-war they still were terrified and even the ones that came back that were breathing and walking and standing

were getting shit thrown at them and spit on and it It was not a popular thing. It was terrible. So he ended up receiving the Blues Award for being the distinguished Marine in his platoon. Oh. Yeah. And he flew on over 100 combat missions in Vietnam. A hundred. A hundred. Yeah. And this is all, I have the documents.

I've seen his commendations. This is real. This is all real. Not like, this isn't a bullshit Haitian coup. This is actually I have the documents. I've seen his commendations. This is real. This is all real. Not like this isn't a bullshit Haitian coup. This is actually what he did. He's a really good soldier. Yep. When he was in 67 during a leave from boot camp, when he first signed up, he married Sandra K.

Iman. And so, Sandra, he met her at an ROTC dance in Bryan, Texas. Adorable. Just like mom and dad probably met at the USO dance there. So over the next three years they moved around a lot because he was stationed in different places. California, Virginia, Florida, Georgia,

Hawaii, all over the place. Bob received various combat training assignments all over the place where he was now training people for other shit. They have one child, Gary Wayne Black, and he's born in 1969.

October 7th, 1969. So, among these things here, though, Bob has some... he's got some issues from Vietnam. Sure. That are documented by several stints in facilities here uh among one one incident that remained with him was the most strongly was one particular bombing mission

which he recalled in exact detail to a psychiatrist later on in which the squadron was to bomb targets of opportunity quote unquote that meant anything you see. So as he explained it, as Black explained it, this meant they could bomb anything that looked at all like a military target. He said on this occasion, they dropped their bombs on several small boats in a river, not knowing whether the boats were used by the enemy to transport munitions or were just fishing boats used by civilians. He said that the mission later on his recall, quote, it was clear that it deeply this is

what a psychiatrist said. It was clear that it deeply bothered Bob and that we were rather indiscriminately dropping thousands of pounds of bombs that on what were indefinite targets in Bob's opinion. Yeah. Or indefinite targets, in Bob's opinion. So another incident, Black blamed himself for this incident, in which two planes in the squadron ran out of fuel and flamed out short of the runway. Oh, shit. Black recalled that, quote, in particular, he faulted himself for the accident and the near loss of life on the grounds that it had been primarily his responsibility to locate the airstrip for a safe landing. So it took me too long and they ran out of fuel.

So they said that Bob, the psychiatrist, said that they were impressed by the very strong impact that the event left on Bob that was still evident even more than a decade later. He was still talking about this. They said all sorts of different things. After his discharge from the service, he returned to Bryan, Texas, where he kind of worked a few jobs here and there. He worked at an electrical company, and people said that he was a good worker, a good electrician. They liked him, but still, he would go through long periods of unemployment.

He's got some problems in his head here. Yeah, and chief among them is nobody even got hurt. No, but it fucked him up. It fucked him up. So while he was employed, he said he found difficulty sustaining interest and enthusiasm for his work. Well, I've never had a job besides this one and comedy that I've been enthusiastic or interested in. So, join the club. He said he never encountered that before.

He'd always been interested in everything. Really? He said the difficulties he had maintaining employment spilled over into his marriage. And Sandra had to, at that point, start shouldering the financial burdens of the family, making sure she had a job and an income. His behavior and moods became erratic. He was often very irritable. He fell into long periods of depression. His self-image deteriorated.

He started to drink more and more heavily. They said he's just a mess at one point he was described that this is not the same aspiring industrious and successful young man who left haskell looking forward to the promise of the life before him this is a middle-aged man who has experienced life he's and and and bad parts of life too right that's what i have to experience yeah My point is like he's experienced life, which sucks. And now he's handling it not great because he's not prepared for this. Totally. He's not.

He's not prepared for it at all. There's no transition period. So there's also testimony later that he had been involved with the Boy Scouts with his son and had been helpful to a friend of his son who suffered from physical and emotional issues. Wow. So he would help that kid out. By April of 76, Bob's symptoms, though, drive him to check into the Veterans Administration Hospital in Houston, Texas. It's too much. He advised hospital administrators that he had come to the hospital because he felt that

he needed help, quote unquote. He said that he was suffering a nervous breakdown, but he suffered a nervous breakdown a couple months before but didn't receive treatment at that time. He said at this time he was asking for help with anger, control, and depression. Wow. Yep. His self-admission to the VA was his first kind of public cry for help, you know, saying he actually needs help. At the time, he reported marital, financial, and employment problems. That's all three.

That's everything. That's the ones. According to that, he came to Houston, according to the records, because Sandra, from whom he was estranged at the time, they had split up at this time. She was in Houston, and Bob had tried to talk her into some reconciliation of some kind. But she didn't want to, so then he went to some kind, but she didn't want to. So then he went to a hospital instead because he couldn't take it. He recognized his problems in the marriage. He said, candidly acknowledging that he sometimes felt sudden, uncontrollable and inexplicable outbursts that were often directed toward his wife.

Now, according to the hospital here, the outbursts were as bewildering to Bob as they were to his family and friends. He didn't understand why it was happening either, he said. So he's unemployed at this time. He told doctors he's had a series of employment periods since his release from the military and said that, quote, his only training is of a bombardier and there's no demand for them now. Yeah. I know how to drop bombs on shit and that's not a real big. In Texas in 1983, there's a 1976, that's not a real big in texas in 1983 there's a 1976 there's not a real big demand for that so he was admitted for observation and treatment and

remained there for four and a half months wow it's incredible because in the boy scouts the motto is be prepared and they they're not prepare. They prepare you to survive if you don't have anything. But they don't prepare you how to survive when all of that training goes wrong. How to figure all that out just afterwards. How to be a person. There's no person training course afterwards. So he is diagnosed as suffering from explosive behavior disorder. Oh.

And was placed on psychotropic medications. behavior disorder. Oh. And was placed on psychotropic medications. Now, as they'll explain here in the footnotes of his paperwork, Dr. John Wilson explained that the first time information about PTSD became available was December 79. So this is three years before that was a diagnosis. And the diagnosis was first listed by the American Psychiatric Association in the diagnostic and the fucking DSM, the book for all that, the third edition in February 1980. That's the first time it's listed in there.

Wow. Yeah. of disorders as PTSD, a diagnosis of personality disorder and explosive behavior was the common one that they would use for the person who had this disorder. So that's what they're saying he has, but they didn't have a name for it yet. The problems are, this is his doctor's actual report, and I'll read it. Quote, the 29-year-old male stated that this was his first VA hospital Houston admission. He said that he came to the hospital at this time because he felt he needed help. He said he had a nervous breakdown in November 75 but did not receive any treatments.

He came to Houston to try to talk to his estranged wife and talk to her into reconciliation. The patient stated that for some reason, all of a sudden, he goes into a rage and at many times has been very abusive to his wife. Most recently, he went into the house, got his gun, and came out and killed the dog. What? Bob shot his own dog? Just shot his own dog because he was so angry he didn't know

what to do. So, at that time, his wife threatened to leave him permanently unless he received some help. He came to the hospital for help. On admission to the unit, the patient's physical examination was in the realm of normal variation. His lab work and x-rays did not reveal any significant abnormalities. He's placed on medication consisting of Haldol one milligram.

Haldol is strong, strong shit. Yeah. Four times a day. Um, RB with C once a day. I don't know what that is. All of his physical complaints were taken care of by the necessary services and treated empirically.

On 6-29-76, the Haldol was discontinued and he was started on, uh, low loxapine at 10 milligrams twice a day. After a period of time, he decided that he didn't need any kind of medication, only vitamin E. What? I don't know. I don't know. His medication was discontinued. That's D is the sun. Oh.

I don't know what the fuck E is. I'm not sure. I have no clue. Oh, I need some lanolin. I'm going to be all right. I'll be all right. Don't you worry about it. I think vitamin E comes from just Vaseline lotion.

Don't they have? I don't know. I have no clue what vitamin E is. It's topical. Don't they have? I don't know. I have no clue what vitamin E is. It's topical. I know you can do that. Maybe. They said he did well without any medication. He went on pass one time and came back very late.

This was an authorized absence. The patient did not create any disturbance and was placed in activities and participated sparingly and superficially. It was at this time the patient asked for a discharge it was felt that he had reached maximum benefits and was given a regular discharge at the time of his release from the hospital he was considered to be competent okay so he makes progress um there um so he does he still has problems though for a few years after this so on and off off after this, Bob has some problems here and there and they build back up again by June, 1983. He's checking himself back in a hospital.

Jesus. And the report is that he has a unusual and violent behavior. Quote, Sandy describes Bob as having several extramarital affairs throughout their relationship. Jesus, Bob. She says he sees himself as a stud, quote unquote. That's in the doctor's report. And much of the time, she does not desire him

sexually. They have one son, Gary Wayne, who's 13 at the time, who was born while Bob was in the service. Sandy is worried about Gary having seen Bob's violent behavior on many occasions. Recently, Bob has placed a lot of pressure on Gary with the Boy Scouts, and she has observed their son's grade improving when Bob grades improving when Bob is not living with them. Oh, boy.

Yeah. Sandy describes Bob as being physically violent with Gary on two occasions, once when he was three years old and once about a year ago when Bob beat him with a switch. Okay. So he's sent to the Greenleaf Psychiatric Hospital where he's admitted for full psychological and medical evaluation here. They describe him as a 36-year-old white male who was in the office with complaints of depression, explosive personality behavior, and a past history of diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia issued at the VA hospital several years ago.

That wasn't in the reports I saw. But maybe he went back and I didn't see that. History was obtained in the office that the patient's been having a difficult time in his marriage, becoming irritable and outburstive. Outburstive is a word? Never heard of that before. Never heard of that. irritable, and outburstive. Outburstive is a word?

Never heard of that before. Never heard of that. It's in the document. Outburstive at home, as well as having generalized job dissatisfaction. He indicates that he started having depressive symptoms while he was a naval flight officer in Vietnam. During the course of his subsequent one-week hospitalization, he's only in for a week this time,

they talk about his history, and they did an interview with Sandy. And it says, quote, Sandy said Bob had begun talking about Vietnam flashbacks since the middle of May after visiting a pilot whom he had been with in Vietnam. Mrs. Black believes that her husband's emotional problems began shortly after his discharge from the Marine Corps in 1973 and after serving in Vietnam as a flyer. Bob was unemployed for five years after the Marine Corps, and Sandy describes him as being jealous and unable to handle stress. Bob's work history has been very erratic. Sandy's complaints is his lack of motivation toward work.

During the last five years, he's held four jobs, and the most recent one was at the post office for one year. And they talk about how he excelled and everything like that. Mrs. Black reports that Bob never talked about his experiences in the war until after they saw the movie The Deer Hunter. Oh, really? With Robert De Niro and Christopher Walken and lots of people in it. He then told her a story about seeing one of his best buddies being killed, describing some of the horror of war, and then asking her never to bring it up again. Okay.

So he's trying to share something with his wife, but then said, but please don't bring that up. Let's never talk about this ever again. Which is, I mean, I guess you're trying. I don't know what that's like. So, you know, I can't get inside his head. But they said he is suffering from major affective disorder, atypical depression and PTSD at this point, as they finally do. Following a week of treatment and counseling, there's sufficient progress where that he could be treated on an outpatient basis, they say. And, you know, later on that Sandra reported a decrease in his explosive behavior.

Overall, the evaluation of him is Bob's level of intellectual functioning was in the superior range overall, with a clear preference for performance tasks over verbal ones. No indication of organic dysfunction was noted. Instability in a number of areas, including interpersonal relationships, mood and self-image, interpersonal relationships for Bob, tend to be rather intense, situation-specific, and unstable. Mood can change within a matter of moments and can shift from extremely dysphoric to elated. On numerous occasions, this shift was noted throughout the assessment period. This makes sense here. So, post-release follow-ups. Here's one. 888 eight 83 met with Sandra today.

Um, things have been going well up until last week when he started a double, started working a double shift and became exceedingly exhausted, resulting in exacerbation of his irritability and moodiness. Anybody working a double shift is irritable and moody. It's going to be a mad man. It's weird. He comes home after 16 hours of work and he's a little pissy strange jesus tired eyes barely open but his mouth just will not stop calling me names christ they said we discussed his obsessive need to work and how he cuts himself off from other

things that are good for him generally i think things are going well uh and his current medication dosage is appropriate uh two weeks later met with him again things are going well and his current medication dosage is appropriate. Two weeks later, met with him again. Things are going generally well from a depression standpoint. No major disruption, nothing like that. Then October 5th, 83, quote, Bob's wife came in stating Bob had gotten angry with her and was planning to leave once again. He apparently is still taking the lithium but has not yet gotten a blood count level. She also brought the son with Bob's understanding and knowledge, and I sat with

both of them trying to explain a little bit about what was going on. I asked her to get Bob to get to the lithium level, and they will be calling me with results. Okay. So they end up increasing his lithium as the result here. His son Gary would later on say, quote, my father never really talked to me about his experiences in Vietnam during the time.

It was understood in my family. You just didn't bring it up. For example, if I brought a videotape about Vietnam home to watch like Rambo, my father would get up and leave the room. He would do the same thing if a television program about Vietnam would come on. It was clear he didn't want to talk about it. And then he also talks about the deer hunter thing. So in by 1984, he's working sporadically in and out of these, you know, mental evaluations. And he likes to hang out with like biker gang guys the weekend. At the VA or just random ass bad men? Around Bryan, Texas.

He likes to hang out with biker friends that are kind of outlaw biker guys. And he treasured, one of his real treasures is a collection of photos showing biker chicks pulling up their shirts to show their tits. Listen. He collects pictures of tits i mean that's yeah it's not the most normal thing about him so far in 1984 this is uh what everybody did yeah these are all my tip pictures this is my jerk bank i gotta save up for later my uncle's garage was oh yeah lined with them on the walls garages fuck yeah so yeah. So now, like John Wayne Hearn, Bob Black fantasized about, you know, getting into some covert military action.

Sure. That's the only time he felt alive, goddammit. Some gun running, some toppling of an evil dictator or two. You know what I mean? Some life. He wants to live god damn it right he's he said but it never really nothing ever really came up uh he had been calling hearn and wanting to get in on whatever action hearn was doing which as we know wasn't very much it was you

know shooting a guy through a trailer window so bob black became acquainted with john wayne hearn when black answered his advertisement from Soldier of Fortune magazine. Of course, John Wayne, who was involved in he claimed to be involved in a group that was gathering weapons to send to the Nicaraguan Contras. Oh, Iran Contra, Oliver North Reagan hearings. He's involved in this heavily, heavily involved. See, I everything that the CIA does, he's saying he did. Right. So that's weird.

He eventually became interested, though, in purchasing Bob Black's gun collection. That's what he wanted to do. Bob wanted to sell it, and this guy wanted to buy it. So John Wayne meets Bob Black in Texas in early 1985 to talk about purchasing guns. That's all it's about at this point. In the course of their meeting, you know, this is fucking funny. They talk about all this. Black tells Hearn that, you know, Christ, I mean, yeah, I got to sell the guns because I need the money.

I got to have the money. He said, I'd have all the money because I need the money. I got to have the money. He said, I'd have all the money I needed if I didn't have this goddamn wife over here. Yeah, she's a pain in the ass. Yeah. So, I mean, you know how that goes. And then he described to John Wayne Hearn a plot that he had concocted to kill his wife, Sandy, in which he and a friend would force a speeding car containing sandy into a bridge embankment those are a trope of a hard place that'll do it generally yeah that'll do it yeah what's solid a bridge embankment can't take down a bridge let's do that everybody says

that that's where they're gonna put their car with the if she doesn't shut the fuck up but the gun deal ends up falling through somehow yeah and her and goes back to florida john wayne goes back but that doesn't stop bob from wanting his wife dead obviously yeah yeah i mean just because he leaves so bob tells john listen i need you to murder my wife sandy okay i'm only capable of dogs dogs Dogs and, you know, possibly Vietnamese civilians, but not my wife. Just high up as it gets, yeah. So he, definitely not a woman I know here. So he said, you know, John said, why do you need it that bad?

Is it that big of an insurance policy? He said, well, I also would like to be with my young girlfriend. Oh. I have a girlfriend who's a lot younger than me. More on her later, by the way. More on her coming up because, wow, is that fucking very Florida also, even though this is in Texas. Yeah.

So, well, you know what? Fuck it. I'll just spoil it now. His young girlfriend is also Bob's first cousin. Bob. Not third cousin. Not fourth cousin. Not second, three times removed.

First cousin as in my mom's sister's girl. Right. Fucking my dad's brother's boy. Right. Fucking my dad's brother's boy. Right. My mom's brother's kid. Either way, Bob, you can't do that. It's illegal and causes major problems. Either way, you've sat next to this person at Thanksgiving for countless years.

This is ridiculous. So John is offered $10,000 from the proceeds of Sandra's life insurance policies to do this. By the way, the cousin doesn't even live in Texas. She lives in California. Does she know that he's interested in her? Oh, they have had a long distance but, quote, very steamy love affair complete with explicit home photos and home videos to prove it. Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, yeah.

They've hooked up. So $10,000 is the agreed upon price here. Wow. It's at this point, during all of this, that John Wayne's relationship with Debbie is starting to fall apart. Yeah. Because he doesn't have enough money and all of that kind of shit. And also, the cops are starting to put two and two together with his shit in Florida. Sure, yeah. kind of shit and also the cops are starting to put two and two together with his shit in florida so sure yeah now sandra the bob's wife sandra black worked with her mother marjorie every day in their

home daycare business oh okay now they were very close and marjorie was also very well aware of the marital problems when you have a daycare you can talk about your marital marital problems because one-year-olds don't pay attention or care. Right. They don't know what the fuck you're saying. They couldn't care less. Yeah. The wiggles are on.

They don't give a shit. So it was a – I'm trying to think back then. Was there the wiggles in the 80s? No, that's the 90s. Oh, it was Pee Wee Herman, right? It was Sesame Street. It was Captain Kangaroo. Sesame Street.

There you go. Sesame Street. And fucking Lamb Chop. Sesame Street's on. Boom. So was Captain Kangaroo. Sesame Street. There you go. Sesame Street. And fucking Lamb Chop. Sesame Street's on. Boom. So it's a lot going on here. It was, they said, he said, you know, it was also, Sandra was telling her mom it would happen so fast when we were kids and now it's been this long.

And yeah, it happens. So Sandra's mother, Marjorie, thought that her daughter, she thought he was a good man when they, you know, he's a Vietnamese going to the military. He was a chemical her daughter, she thought he was a good man. He's a Viet and he was going to the military. He was a chemical engineering student. She thought it was a good deal. But a few years into this, Bob began having trouble holding on to a job. And Sandra would go to her mom and say, Bob's cheating on me. And now the mother-in-law doesn't like him so much, obviously.

So Sandra ends up finding out about his affair with his first cousin. That's the last straw right it's got to be hard enough to explain an affair to your wife anyway yeah but then to be like it's my first cousin like yeah talk about all the moral high ground in the world to complain to you if this was she has you cheated on me and you're fucking gross at the same time and you're a hillbilly perfect i've been fucking someone who shares DNA with me. Teresa Heather Hetherington is her name. She's not getting out of the scot-free. So Teresa Hetherington is the cousin here.

She ends up Sandra is filed files for and is granted a divorce. But Bob talks his way back into it. Oh, after this so sandra though is unaware that bob is still seeing his cousin even though he said he wasn't anymore and at the same time he's also plotting to murder her for her life insurance right so yeah now bob has a real problem he can't find anyone before he talks to john wayne to kill his wife and he's asked a lot of people by the way he's really yeah he's asked several of his friends

around town to kill his wife but none of them would none of them reported it to the police or told Sandra about it they all thought it was just Bob being a blow hard I'm saying that shit about killing his wife again you guys yeah Christ he made an attempt to

kill her himself in january 85 but it didn't work out well okay do we know how you do so we'll find out here um he said he never really explained why he wanted her dead to his friends but it was clear that he really didn't want to get a divorce he wanted her fucking dead yeah because all of the all the friends said why don't you just get a divorce man he was like i can't okay i did she's gotta die we said till death holy shit and then because he's obsessed with his cousin so anyway um she i guess right before i'm sorry a little while earlier sandra's mother marjorie, said that Bob had thrown Sandra through a screen door during an argument. Oh, my. Okay, so plans to kill Sandra.

All right. Fall of 1984. Bob asked a man to choke his wife to knock her out, pin her underneath a motorcycle in a garage, then burn down the garage. Is she? What is that? I don't know what the motorcycle or the choke or any of that has to do with anything. in a garage, then burned down the garage. Is she? What is that? I don't know what the motorcycle or the choker or any of that has to do with anything. Is she a common motorcycle mechanic? Is that a thing she does all day that maybe it would fall on her neck?

That's what I thought he was going to say, yeah. Then burned down the garage. The motorcycle fell on her and got her caught by the neck and then the garage spontaneously combusted. Black said his alibi would be that he and his son would be away jumping on a trampoline. Okay. Jumping for joy. Is our trampoline day. That guy said, I don't think so.

That sounds crazy. A little while later about a month later he approached the same man again really listen i already told you i'm not killing your goddamn wife but no again this time he said okay i got a better idea check it out i want you to steal a truck and while my wife's riding her motorcycle, run her over with the truck. Oh, she's got one, yeah. She's got a motorcycle, yeah. Run her over with the truck. Just blast her.

Just destroy her, just splatter her all over the front of the truck. And he said, I don't think so. I'm not going to do that either. So he then talks to other people, a guy named David. There's David and Mark Huber. Mark Huber's the first guy he asked to do

this and said no. So then he talks to Mark's brother, David. Maybe he wants to kill my wife. He suggested David's or Mark's. I'm sorry. Jesus Christ. Bob Black suggested David. Maybe you'd like to help me burn my wife to death, he said. Have you got a flamethrower? Yes. And then he said to him, what if you steal a truck and run her over on her motorcycle? See, he's got recycled ideas that he's given out now. The guy said, no, no, that won't do. What if she survives it?

And he said, okay, that's fair. What if you hit her on the head with a baseball bat and dump her over a bridge? Oh. And he goes, well, that, no. Well, why would she be near the bridge then? I'd have to get her near a bridge oh and he goes well that no well why would she be near the bridge then i'd have to get her near a bridge at that point otherwise it would show that we dragged her there and he said okay okay i get i get it you're smart you're good at this you're good at this so many good points what if you fake a rape robbery oh what if you rape and rob my wife and then kill her with one of my guns what What about that? Would that work for you?

Yeah. And the guy said, you know, I'm going to I got a lot of stuff to do. I'm chase checking his watch. I'm going to go ahead and I got a thing with the kids. Well, I got to be to work early in the morning. And I know it's Sunday. I'm a preacher. I got to go.

So he also discussed killing Sandra with a a guy named gordon matheson as well and matheson said that bob hated sandra and was obsessed with his cousin theresa and that bob asked him to assist in killing sandra by driving a car into sandra um he said that he would assist killing sandra by driving a car into which Black would crawl after guiding Sandra's car into a bridge embankment. So he would pretend he was in the car, too. Okay. Like, oh, we got in an accident, but she died and I'm fine. Because he'd crawl into another car?

Crawl into that car like he was there in the car. Oh, we got run off the road. Oh, no, my wife's dead. So he offered both David Huber and Matheson monetary rewards for this, obviously. Like he was there in the car. Oh, we got run off the road. Oh, no, my wife's dead. So he offered both David Huber and Matheson monetary rewards for this, obviously, here. And the guy thought it was just funny. He thought he was funny. He thought, this is crazy. None of these work.

Yeah. Then, though, he said he stopped being friends with him because he kept bringing up killing his wife constantly. Yeah, that's a friendship killer yeah mark huber the brother of david said that yeah he uh had received 500 as a down payment back in 1982 to kill his wife he's been talking about killing his wife since 82 but they never carried out the plan at that time rob just bob discussed shooting sandra running her over with a truck or dumping her in an abandoned well and covering it with cement. He has wanted her dead for two years. At least.

Yeah. Then there's another one he had. One plan, his first plan. This is what he was going to do was called the El Camino plan. Yeah. It involves an El Camino. Shockingly enough, he was going to hit her on the head, knock her out, then put her body in the back of his El Camino. If you don't know what an El Camino was, in the 70s they made a car, 60s and 70s, that was half car, half truck.

Picture a car with a truck bed in it, and that's what you had. And picture it the ugliest way possible. Oh, absolutely hideous. Hideous, hideous car. A punchline for many years to come. They're very popular now. Now, of course, because they're hideous, so they're popular now. Because they're dumb.

Everything's a, yeah, everything. Vans are popular, even though that we decided, hey, that's too molesty. We don't like those. It's gross. They're popular. So they planned to take her body in the El Camino. The plan was his plan, not their plan. Take the car out on a freeway bypass road

near bryan texas put it on cruise control jump into another vehicle just before the el camino jump to another he's gonna bruce willis this shit like he's gonna dive out of the door as it as it flies off a bridge like he's gonna do keanu reeves in speed yeah that was a plan um wow that is fucking amazing so then he found though john wayne hearn in the ad and he was like you know this is a guy high risk assignments let's get this fucking done here yeah um anyway he offers bob says i know you got to go back to florida john wayne hearn but uh i'll offer my services and anything, weapons, things, anything you need. I'm here for you. OK, so Debbie learns about this possibility of a job in Texas to kill the wife for 10 grand.

And Debbie's like, fucking do it, John. What's wrong with you? I need money. I got a Birkin bag I want. Yeah. So, by the way, it was after this offer that she she said, cancel that answering service. I'll just answer the soldier of fortune calls. I will tell you what ones we're going to do. Yeah, I'll do that. And that way she had the

opportunity to speak to Bob herself. From that point on, she would beg John to kill just one more time. If you do it, you can take care of all of our bills and we can go on vacation and life will be great after that. We'll be together forever. It's going to be wonderful. And then next month. And then two months from now, what do we do? Yeah, they're like crackheads. They're like love crackheads. Murder crackheads.

Yeah. John said that investigators have been talking about stuff and he's kind of scared. But Debbie kept insisting, saying the police can never connect you to a crime. It's not even in Florida, stupid. You don't know that guy. It's not like you hang out with him all the time. Go there, kill her, come home, it's over with. Right? So Hearn and Black talked about this.

And although the weapons sale fell through, they agreed that Black would pay Hearn $10,000 plus expenses, of course, traveling. Keep your receipts, though, from Shoney's because... Sometimes there's a travel lodge. It's $10,000 plus expenses, and they were going to kill Sandra with her own gun inside Bob Black's home. Wow. That's the way they're going to do this. Okay. Now, February 21st, 1985, Sandra leaves her mom's house.

She's at her mom's house, heads home. When she walked out of the house, she walked into the house, and nobody's supposed to be there. She walks in. A man steps out of the shadows. Who? Is already in her house. Turns out the day before, Hearn had traveled there, and

he was... He and Black ransacked the house to make it appear like a burglary occurred, stole jewelry, shit like that. Then Black, Bob, and his son Gary ran errands while Hearn lurked waiting for Sandra to come to the house. They said, quote, Hearn waited five, six, seven minutes, maybe more, trying to sit here, trying to wait, trying to wait she came in he shot her multiple times one shot is right between

the eyes shoots her the first time, she falls down she's gasping for air, he shoots her between the eyes and ends it she didn't even know what was going on, she just saw a figure and was like what the hell and then she was shot I mean it was that quick so a short while later Bob and his son came home She didn't even know what was going on. She just saw a figure and was like, what the hell? And then she was shot. I mean, it was that quick. Oh, boy.

So a short while later, Bob and his son came home. And by the way, his son had been sick in bed, but Bob insisted that he come out with him to run errands. Oh. Because that's part of the plan. It'll help you get better. And Gary's the one who finds his mother. Poor 15-year-old Gary. Oh, Jesus.

The one who finds his mother in the kitchen. Because, you know, Bob couldn't find it because that'd be suspicious Gary has to find it now it's you know so um the pictures are horrible the author of this book later on says quote the first time I saw these pictures I felt sick not nauseous but sick about what kind of world this is it really affected me the book by the way is called the soldier of fortune murdersders, A True Story of Obsessive Love and Murder for Hire by Ben Green. I don't really like the book. No. I'm going to be honest here.

This is the writing, okay? I'll give you a quote from the book. Cecil Beatty was still asleep on the couch, but he had pulled the blanket completely over his face. That made it easier. Heard didn't have to look at him. He stood over him, staring down, and now the choice was clear his options certain if i don't do it i can't have debbie if i don't do it i can't have debbie it was a chant a catechism drumming in his head the fuck do you know that that kind of stuff ignore annoys me but he also you know fucking

goes on to really describe. Listen to the murder. This is Cecil's murder. He squeezed the trigger. The explosion thundered across Beatty Hill, echoing off the cracker box houses and the metal sides of the. What is that? Oh, the Sims's trailer right across the street. The first shot blew a perfect hole in the plate glass, sending hundreds of tiny shards of glass rocketing into the blanket just ahead of the pellets of number two birdshot that slammed into Cecil Beatty's face. Wow.

So there you go. Now, will they get away with it? Let's find out. Hearn, John Wayne, after he does all this, does the murder of Sandra here, kills her. He flees the scene in her van and left it in a grocery store parking lot after picking up his rental car and heading to Houston where he catches a plane home. Brilliant. Now, for a down payment, Bob had given John Wayne some of Sandra's jewelry, which is a weird down payment. Very traceable things that could get you busted.

Here you go. Have that as down payment. So finally, it all comes together here. While John Wayne's taking care of this in Texas, police in Florida are really working on him for those murders. Detectives had discovered that John had attended the funeral of Debbie's husband, which was suspicious, and had even taken photographs of them together standing next to the casket before it was lowered into the ground look what we did isn't this nice so soon after the sandra black killing debbie fucking broke up with john because the cops were getting too close she didn't want to be with him okay so but it doesn't matter because police have telephone records of calls between john's Florida hotel and Debbie's room from the

Times and then from Texas to back and it's obvious they knew each other. Also Bob Black is pretty fucked here because the murder for hire plan is undercut by the fact that he already tried to get five fucking people to do it so a bunch of people know about it so when his wife actually is

murdered those people go I know a guy who wanted to do that not to mention eight days before the murder eight days bob had taken out a hundred thousand dollar insurance policy on sandra eight days just over a week and on the way to her funeral asked the agent if the policy was valid and would pay off. All right. Not good. The agent said he wasn't completely surprised by the question. Apparently, it's not unusual for bereaved relatives to inquire about the insurance payoff process in the early days after death. Is this something else I have to worry about?

That makes sense. Yeah. However, after Sandra was killed, a number of other people connected to the couple talked to police about how they'd been approached by Bob Black to help him kill his wife. Oh, my God. So the cops said once. Maybe we think they were bullshitting. Twice is getting bad. Three, three different people were too much smoke.

Too much smoke. The fire's raging. He really wants to do this. Now, how do who does it all come down to? Mary, John's mom. What did mom say? She lied to the police, gave him an alibi and all that sort of shit there. But they figured out a couple things.

They figured out evidence that John was not visiting before, during, or after the murder of Joe Bannister. They said, you lied to us. So now she's backed in a corner and she says, okay, fine. John Wayne was in Florida at the times you asked me about. Uh-oh. She gives him up. So that's not great. Then they contact her

and they said, quote, that's when she broke down and she told us she had lied about his alibi. She also gave, by the way, Mary does, gives police recordings of phone conversations between john wayne and debbie that had been recorded on her answering machine she hates that woman so much fucking hates debbie so they said in between declarations of love debbie had given john wayne details about her husband's schedule and when he

when might be the best time to kill him um one time john wayne said i can't stand this anymore i've got to have you he says to debbie uh this is after they finished finalizing murder details jesus she also uh mary gives detectives a photocopy of a thousand dollar check made out to her son, but sent to her. It was from Bob Black in Texas. Oh, no. Detectives contact police in Texas said, you know, anything about a Bob Black? And they go, well, his wife had just been murdered in her home like just now. So now they connect these homicides.

March 15th, 1985, John Wayne Hearn turns himself into police in texas and um they said oh shit he basically sits in the in the interrogation room and sobs uncontrollably the entire time like a soldier of fortune would he's a mercenary jimmy what do you want like a very dangerous man would yep and after a few hours of questioning he confessed to everything all of it everybody involved two of the worst states to do this shit oh yeah oh my god he said he was looking for bodyguard work when he placed this ad he said he didn't expect to get 10 to 20 calls a day and i got a call in 1984 she's looking for a strong arm guy. And I end up shooting the guy. And the cop says, quote, he admitted he put the AR-7 gun together with one hand as he drove with the other.

He put the gun in the groove of the truck window and fired two shots, hitting John Bannister's Ford Escort, the first shattering the window and striking Bannister, the second shot striking Bannister. That's the headshot. Yeah. They said, yeah. So he started doing more. They figured all this shit out. It's wild. So Hearn is also extradited to Florida now because they got two murders on him there.

Jesus Christ. He waived extradition and they said, we used a private outfit known as prison transport to bring him back. We're just borrowing him from Texas for a while. I expect he'll go back to Texas once Florida is finished with him. Unless we prosecute him, in which we have a deal with Texas where we will saw the gentleman right up the middle, give them half, and we keep half.

We can have half. We're going to kill him first anyway, so it don't matter. So they said in the indictment, they said the appearance of John Wayne Hearn might be critical to the indictment of others, they said, because they're indicting him first and they're using him to arrest everybody else is what they want to do.

So another source close to the investigation said Cecil Beatty's wife, Marlene, who was Debbie's sister, may have also been involved. So, yeah, because Hearn may have been contacted through an acquaintance with the sister's father. They said that Hearn may be cooperative with Florida investigators. The prosecutor said, our expectation is that he will plead guilty and not face a jury trial. I can't go into detail about why, but I have my reasons.

In other words, we already are making a deal with them. Yeah. So he told investigators everything they need to know, including the role of Debbie Bannister, Marlene Sims. Their parents, Frank and Iris, as well, are involved in this, as well as Bob Black. Right. Altogether, it's a six-pack of dipshits. This is a fucking amazing thing here. And Grandma's still homeless.

And Grandma's still homeless. She's still homeless she's sitting out in the front yard with her few remaining possessions in a rocker just on these kids just pictures of my grandkids is all i got left john wayne plea bargains yeah to avoid the electric chair oh he enters a plea in the shooting of john bannister. I call him Joe before I'm going to call him John. The circuit court judge are a buzzy green. We'll sentence him later on. We'll talk about here. The state's attorney said the plea agreement was a tough decision to make to take Hearn out of the chair, but we would not have the case with the cases we had otherwise. He said, I don't want this misconstrued. We have one hell of a circumstantial case against him. But we took the plea because now he'll testify against everybody. So, yeah, they said that. The plea bargain he signed, the state agreed to not seek the death penalty if Hearn promised to testify in the other cases.

So they said that now it's stronger. And the prosecutor says, as distasteful as it may be. Right. We have stronger cases. More indictments come down now. They indict Marlene Sims Watson and her sister Debbie. Obviously, Franklin Sims and Iris Sims are also indicted. Oh, shit.

Not great here. The whole thing is a fucking mess. So they said that Hearn and Debbie Bannister planned to kill the husband up to a week before it happened. They met within 45 minutes of the slaying. So that ties them all together. Make sure she's in it. The state's attorney general said this is the most bizarre and complex murder case we've ever dealt with. If you had the movie rights, you'd probably make a million dollars.

Yeah. Or you can make a podcast out of either one. So Bob at the county jail bob black because he's in the county jail in texas a deputy sheriff from the brazos county jail in texas there testified that bob was being held pending trial a map of the jail and surrounding grounds and some wire were found during a shakedown grady deckard another inmate at the jail testified that black had told him of an escape plot.

So he's even trying to escape jail. Holy shit. So John is in court, and they say that he admitted putting it all together. They talk about John Wayne Hearn. This is for Bannister, Debbie's husband. In Florida. In Florida. He admits to putting the gun together, shooting him in the Ford Escort, the whole thing.

They described it and they asked her if the description was correct. And he said, yes, sir. And they find him guilty of first degree murder. OK, now we'll just do his John sentencing right away. You, sir, may fuck off life in prison for you. Of course, that's what he gets. He also faces first degree murder charges in Texas. And they said the plea agreement, though, applies to there as well.

Oh. So the worst he can do is life. Overall, he's sentenced to three life sentences, one for each. It's at this point, Soldier of Fortune magazine comes under some fire. Oh, yeah. He should. Yeah. Yeah.

They file a Gary Wayne Black, the son of Sandra, files a wrongful death suit against the magazine and they're requesting a monetary reward reward here. The publisher said they had no way of knowing an in in money in civil suit here their lawyer said no one would suspect an ad would be seeking criminal conduct okay though the publisher the editor said he didn't think anybody would be so stupid as to put an ad for a felony in their magazine that would be stupid you you put the ad in your own magazine. Jesus Christ, man. So that's how that goes. Hearn testifies at the magazine trial about his responses to the ad. Yeah, he had a big deposition, and he said that attorneys for the magazine do not dispute, by the way, that the magazine brought all these people together. But they insist the publisher, Robert Brown, had no way of knowing the ad was for illegal activity.

Hearn's ad appeared for high-risk assignments. That could be anything. He could have been driving a truck in the snow. I don't know. Anything's high risk. He says, he testifies, though, probably 90% of the calls I received concerned illegal activities. He said three to five of those a day concerned killings. So that's a lot.

The rest of them were just people with dietary restrictions wanting to watch me eat the foods they can eat. Yeah, that's all it is, man. He also said in a deposition, he did not go into any detail, but he said that someone was trying to hire him to assassinate a Canadian official. Diplomat? Wow. He also said that there was a request to bomb the Oregon commune set up by

Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh. He was going to blow this place up. He said, quote, a farmer wanted something done up there. He wanted some of the trailers blown up but to make it so no one was hurt. Hearn said he had his people check the place out and found it armed like a military base, and they said they had machine guns equipped.

He said they had a machine gun equipped helicopter, this commune. That's a weird commune. Do you want to learn how to grow vegetables uh or fly the attack helicopter which one would you rather do you want to do upside down tomato baskets or the armed apache great he said we didn't take that assignment that seemed ridiculous he said black first contacted about the sale of a gun collection and then suggested maybe he might need help killing his wife and he said quote i and this is uh john wayne i intended to kill her instantly i didn't want her to suffer and he said he was upset because the first shot didn't kill

her right away he had to shoot her again okay so in response to whether soldier of fortune or his publisher was responsible for his illegal activities, he replied, if I had never run an ad in Soldier of Fortune, I would never have killed anyone. Great point. That's fair. Why not? They said the magazine is devoted in no small part to violence. The pages of the magazine promote a subculture of violence is what the prosecutors are saying here or the civil suit side there. The magazine attorney, Larry Thompson, said the magazine was focused on Vietnam veterans

and the classified ads were run as a source of employment for them, but also appealed to military historians and people who like adventure. He said there are people out there who are armchair warriors. They want to live out their adventure at home. Okay. Sure. So the jurors are urged to tell the world the value of human life

before they began deliberating. They deliberate for two and a half hours and then they come back. They rule against Soldier of Fortune. Yeah, of course. For 22 and a half million dollars. Oh shit, it's over for them. Yes. Marjorie Eyman, Sandra's mother, said thanks to Robert K. Brown.

That's the publisher in his magazine. He taught his readership to do something I wouldn't know how to do. That is contact and hire a professional killer. Thank you, Mr. Brown. Wow. They told the jury a true measure of civilized society is how much value we place on human life. You're the jurors are going to tell the world. Yes.

They said they tried to stop him, but he wanted to run them. He liked them. All this type of shit. Hill said employees tried to warn the publisher that some of the ads have been linked to criminal activities. And he said, no, they're great. We weapon specialist. So he's not awarded the full $22 million, though. The jury awards Marjorie and Gary $9.5 million in damages.

Good award. That's our best. Soldier of Fortune immediately appeals to its readers for money it says it needs to keep publishing and fight a $9.4 million court judgment. Yeah, I fuck up, you pay for it. Holy. The magazine is appealing the award to the family of a woman who was killed, and they say that the jury gives the award, but they say they need it. Mark Carson, an accountant hired by the magazine to be a trustee of the fund,

said about 500 readers have sent in donations for a total of $12,000 to $15,000 so far, right away when they put it up. Yeah, that's a drop in the bucket when it goes to $9 million. $9.5 million. Also, Prime Minister Brian Mulroney of Canada, yeah, Canada, here, said that there was a report that an American

was offered the task of assassinating him. And they said, well, we are aware from press reports that the allegations that John Wayne Hearn was approached in 1984 to assassinate the prime minister. We're actively pursuing an investigation of this allegation along with U.S. authorities. So they're doing that because they think that happened. Now, Debbie here. Oh, by the way, they said that I got to tell you a little bit more about Hearn here. Hearn said the Canadians financed the overthrow of the president of French Guyana to the tune of $100,000. A hundred grand?

A hundred grand. He said that he did not go into the Canadian assassination request and did not mention Mulroney by name, Hearn. Hearn said in a deposition that the Guyanese president was terrorizing the population with murderous hit squads, but French Guiana is a protectorate of France and has no president. Hearn alleged, so it's not the president, it's some other guy. Hearn alleged that he and 11 others trained in Tennessee for about six weeks before setting out for the South American country. They aborted the mission when they developed engine trouble while flying over the Gulf of Mexico. Holy shit. I don't believe any of that.

No. Nothing. Debbie's trial comes around and they called her a widowed by her own hand is what the prosecutor says. OK. That's, that's crazy. Uh, Bannister,

Debbie testifies for three hours, admitting she had an affair with John who confessed to shooting her husband, John, but she denied the plot to kill her husband. She said she first met her at a truck stop before moving to Florida in 1978 to marry John Bannister. That's not true by the way. Uh, florida in 1978 to marry john bannister that's not true by the way well uh she said she visited her in atlanta in december 1984 to get away from home and think that's more like it uh but

bannister's testimony conflicted with his he said she they first talked on october 30th 1984 never saw her before that never knew about her. They produced phone records indicating 37 calls had been placed from Bannister's phone to Hearn's Atlanta apartment between October 84 and January 85 when Hearn finally just moved to Florida. So Bannister ends up being found guilty of second degree murder, Debbie does. Oh, boy. Yes. Oh, yes. murder debbie does oh boy yes oh yes and uh the the uh sentencing comes around and the judge says you ma'am may fuck off 17 years in prison oh boy which is the maximum that's allowed by law and what she is uh you know fucking charged sure she said she showed no reaction when the verdict and

sentence were read here um she's ordered removed from the courthouse and let out. The state attorney said, I'm satisfied with the sentence of the court because justice has been met. She was widowed by her own hand and will now pay for her actions. Wow. Robert Adkins, whose home the Bannisters visited for dinner, traveling in separate cars that night, said he felt relieved at the verdict. He said, fortunately, the tracks of justice run straight and true. At least now I'll know where she'll be eating supper

for the next few years. Marlene has to plead guilty as well. Yeah. I mean, remember, her husband's the first one. She only gets, you, ma'am, may fuck off. Nine years? Five and a half years in prison. Really?

That is nothing. She, this is what what how is that possible she still is super involved with a conspiracy to murder yeah she wanted her husband dead she just got other people to help that doesn't five and a half wow wow franklin and iris sims here their parents uh they they entered no contest pleas to being accessories after the fact to murder and were fined $5,000 each and given five years probation. What? They said, let's burn grandma's house down to get you that money to hire that hitman. That's five years probation. Are you fucking kidding me?

And then they're fined together as the same as it costs to hire the hitman yeah five thousand each that's fucking crazy uh bob black's trial comes around here and they said it was kind of a open and shut case bob's case yeah pretty good pretty open and shut yeah um hearn's already in prison he's testifying against him it's all terrible for bob here and in texas poor bob verdict comes in guilty as shit for bob you cousin fucking bastard cousin fucking idiot so the sentencing comes around death penalty is on the table here for bob by the way trigger puller or not um the two special issues they hit with are deliberateness and future dangerousness. They're submitted for the punishment phase here.

He offers a great deal of evidence as well. Witnesses say that Black had not been a mean or vicious child, which doesn't matter now. That's long gone. And that he won numerous honors in scouting, including being an Eagle Scout. Doesn't matter. So we should just let him walk free. Let him do some scouting. being an eagle scout doesn't matter so we should just let him let him walk free do some scouting eagle scouts kill too apparently they don't think so yeah let him go uh the judge has a different idea you sir may fuck off death penalty oh shit lethal injection for bob

they're getting bob hardest. Hardest, absolutely. Oh, my. Marlene got five and a half years for essentially the same fucking thing. The other two got a fine for hiring and facilitating. I'm sorry, but this is wild, right? Oh, boy.

So the appeals from Bob, by the way, is him claiming PTSD from Vietnam, which is real. We know for a fact he's not making that absolutely based on multiple hospital visits and page i could have read you 20 more pages of hospital reports too so he and this was before it was like convenient for him to say that that was his probably was just he was just seeking help so uh in his appeal he contends that the evidence did not support the jury's findings that he would be a danger to others and should be executed.

You're willing to fuck your cousin and murder your actual wife to make that a thing. You're dangerous. To fuck your cousin harder. Harder and more. Yes. You are so dangerous, Bob. You're a bad man. Wow. The judge, though, said that Bob hired a stranger to lay in wait in your own home to kill your wife. Have your son find it and make it look like a robbery had taken place. He said the capital murder was senseless and a cold blooded killing. They said the Supreme Court also refuses to disturb a lower court decision that soldier of fortune and we'll talk about that for a second so um

hearn's mom is also um this is crazy mary she's so annoying she gets the florida prison officials to move him to south carolina oh my god and they do it they fucking do it how fucking annoying is that woman who are the two least movable entities we have marines florida and marine corps and the florida prison system those are the two immovable they don't do anything for anybody that they don't want to do moves more than mountains she manipulated that that is crazy fuck a. I will move the Marines. Wow. How do you get the Florida? But he didn't commit a murder in that state, man.

Doesn't matter. I want him by me. She's being a real pain in the ass. What is she? How does she do it? She's good. She is. And she's the same one who got another husband while she was still pregnant and 17 and all.

Mary should. She should have been a salesman. A salesman. She would salesman. She'd crush. She'd have been multimillionaire by now. So, yeah, she's so annoying there. He was transferred to the Broad River Road Reception and Evaluation Center last month and is awaiting transfer to a maximum security prison as soon as space is available. He will serve out his prison sentences under the Interstate Corrections Compact, so he

can go. The compact allows member states to swap prisoners who want to live in their home states. Unbelievable. Only about 22 inmates have been swapped under the compact agreement. And she got it done. She got it done. Fucking Mary, man. Holy shit.

Wow. That is crazy. More than a dozen reporters from Canada have called in the past two days seeking information about Hearn. Yeah. But he refused all requests for interviews and won't elaborate on the I was going to kill your prime minister claims. Next up, Geraldo's involved. next up Geraldo's involved uh-huh we got Ben Green the the book author um Geraldo and John Wayne Hearn all set up from a satellite link up from from the fucking prison there yeah uh which is insane so um he actually says Geraldo cuts away for a commercial and starts talking to the

audience and says okay who has questions for the killer who has questions quote unquote that's what he fucking said who's got questions for the murderer anybody questions for the killer questions for the killer god he's an idiot so um also on stage here relatives of the murdered people uh all sorts of shit here and then ben green the author is sitting there in the middle of this whole thing trying to make sense of it holy shit it's it's green says quote heraldo who could probably boil down the lynn bird kidnapping to a 10 second synopsis had a hard time giving all the details in just a short version of the case

yes this is so many people and it's so many people you need this is this is the format for this um he says i had really worked on my sound bites for the heraldo show this is the author i needed 20 second replies i would afraid i was afraid i'd get nervous and take off on rambling tangents yeah so holy shit he said the quote he was a mama's boy about hern yeah i don't think he liked me calling him that in the book but hey i could have called him much worse things sucked any baby yeah i was a fucking at least not cousin fucker yeah yeah he said quote it's a small southern town story and i grew up in a southern town most of the people in the book are just working people i was scared what some northern journalist would do in this story everyone would be portrayed as a congenital idiot or something.

Gee, how the fuck would we possibly get that out of this? How could we think for one minute that this one who's fucking his cousin to get this one to come here and then this one's convinced to murder two people because this girl gives him a wild ride. This guy's shooting through trailer windows. How could we possibly portray anyone as a fucking congenital idiot here? Well, a suck titty baby is coddled by his mother for 40 years. Fuck me. How could there ever be idiots involved? You know what the name of this episode is? Congenital Idiots.

Congenital Idiital idiots there you go ben yeah it was green author green or cousin genital idiots cousin genital idiots cousin genital idiots those go that goes so perfect that fits so much better yeah 1988 marlene who was sentenced to five and a half years was released after serving three years in 1988 she remarried soon after you are in danger man she's a real prize you want to go home with there and in 1990 opened a home daycare center with her father what the fuck you can be convicted of a murder adjacent crime and run a daycare center that's fine you get licensed for that and her dad is that the one that uh burned the house yes oh my god who just got out of two who's on probation i'm on parole and he's on probation we'll bring your kids over bring your kids over we're great at forming a plan together this is

great yeah it's gonna be wonderful this endeavor was short-lived not surprisingly because no one We'll bring your kids over. Bring your kids over. We're great at forming a plan together. This is great. Yeah, it's going to be wonderful. This endeavor was short-lived, not surprisingly, because no one wants to give their kids to a murderer. You still have to have clients. Jesus. 1990, Soldier of Fortune appeals the ruling. Wow. The U.S. Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals says, quote, the standard of conduct imposed upon the magazine was too high because the advertisement was ambiguously worded.

Reverse decision. You have to be kidding me. Don't have to pay him a fucking thing. You have to be kidding me. Ambiguous? It sounds so menacing. It sounds menace. That's what they, I think they use that word at one point here. It did result in the magazine suspending the public publication of classified advertisements for mercenary work. argue that Bob had been led to have his wife killed because he was suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome

that he had been brought on by his combat service in Vietnam. The court entered findings of fact and conclusions of law recommending that the relief be denied. The court reset Black's execution date from May 22, 1992. Black filed objections with the Criminal Court of Appeals and sought a stay of execution, but the Court of Appeals adopted the trial court's findings and conclusions and denied relief. So he has several grounds. His trial attorneys rendered constitutionally ineffective assistance by failing to investigate and offer for purposes of mitigation evidence that he suffered from PTSD.

That seems legitimate to me. Ineffective assistance of counsel for many other things. He says that's the PTSD thing as part of that. The Texas capital sentencing statute applied to this case violated the Eighth Amendment, he says. He said Black adduced evidence relating to his activities as a youth, including his accomplished participation in the Boy Scouts. They didn't take his good works into account. And he said Sixth Amendment right to counsel was violated when evidence of a conversation he had out of the presence of counsel with a jailhouse informant was admitted at trial.

That's the guy who said they had a plan to escape. He also says that guy's testimony was false thereby violating black's rights under the 14th amendment they use that escape plan big time at his trial to show that he's a future danger because look at him he's trying to get break out of prison what could happen to do it now yeah yep um he argued that the district court to the district court that the sixth amendment right to counsel was violated when grady deckard the cellmate was, was allegedly acting as an agent of the state, testified about statements. That's what every one of those says all the time. I guess they based it on letters written by Deckard to his attorney, which were excluded from evidence by the state court. So I don't know what he's talking

about, and they don't let him go on that one. Also different evidence and inflammatory evidence, failure to grant a motion to change venue, all these different things. The issue finally reaches the United States Supreme Court. Is that right? All of these issues for the stay of execution, and they vote 6-3 to deny a stay of execution. Wow. So they're going to execute him. Oh, boy.

So May 22, 1992 is execution day. He's declaring his innocence all the way up to the table. Screaming it, yeah. Didn't do anything wrong. He's joking around with everybody. What? He recites a poem. While strapped to the gurney, everyone's around,

and he looks up to the guys that are placing him in it, and he says, I look like a stretched out cooked goose. He's joking around and laughed about it. In his final statement, he reads the poem High Flight. What? It's a poem. Quote, Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth and danced the skies on laughter silvered wings. and danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings.

Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds and done a hundred things. And at that point, he gasped four times and stopped breathing. He got to that. Didn't get to finish that. It's got two more paragraphs in the poem. Fuck, that's dark. That's dark shit in the middle of a poem. That's dark shit, man. Do you poem that's dark shit man yeah do you have

any last words sure do here i go all right we're just gonna start at least normally not a fucking poem geez not that many we's like a sentence maybe yeah i got seven stanzas guys hold on i got wait i got two more left to go yeah you go ahead with those words we're gonna we're gonna get over here wow somebody hates that poem that is fucking wild i've read enough of this shit fuck this poem now give him extra get next to him kind of knocks him out because this is bullshit blows doesn't even rhyme did he say silvered wings fuck this guy right right push the plunger man laughter silvered wings man kill this motherfucker i'm sorry did he eat oh in texas i just give him whatever everybody else got huh

uh no not at that point but he has no last date i i looked for two hours in the middle of the night trying to find his last meal nowhere to be found it. Nowhere to be found. I'm so sorry. It's so brutal. I love him so much. I want to know, too. I'm so curious. I want to know what was coursing through his veins while that guy couldn't take that fucking bottle.

Which stuffed crust pizza did he get is what I want to know that's coursing through his brains. How many pork chops did he eat? Tell me. He gasped in the middle of the bottle. Dead. Fucking unreal, man. That's fucked up.

That is dark shit. It really is. That's grim, Karen. So his lawyer, by the way, Bob's lawyer, Peter Erlander, writes a big article called The Wrongful Death of Bob Black. Yeah. And he said Bob Black never killed anyone except for his military service in Vietnam. He goes on to say Bob Black talked about getting rid of his wife for years and no one in Bryant took him seriously. But when her needed to get out of Florida after the first two murders, he became deadly serious about it.

So he blames it all on John Hearn basically and says that he didn't describe it, didn't deserve it. The jury did not hear Bob's cellmate admit that he had lied in the death penalty hearing about Bob's planning to escape from jail. The cellmate said that he had lied in exchange for being made a trustee in the jail. So I don't think out of everybody doing this, Bob shouldn't be the only one. Yeah, he shouldn't. If John's not getting killed, John literally with his own hand killed three fucking people if he's alive you can't it's just not proportional it's just not and for bob to go that way that's fucked

up man that's fucking crazy so 1995 franklin sims dies that's the debbie and marlene's dad yeah 2000 iris sims. That's mom. So they're both gone. Yeah, that's mom. 2004, Debbie is released from prison. Okay. After she's sentenced to 17 years and she served nine years and was released in late 2004. As far as we know, as of 2020, she was living in Oregon.

Mm-hmm. As we know here. Now, John Wayne here, old John Waynene um mary by the way because she died in 2004 his mom mary yeah she had hassled the prison officials to move her boy even closer to home the state of south carolina wasn't close enough closer i need him in the garage you guys i'll build a cage in my garage just put him out there he was incarcerated at the Perry Correctional Institution in Peltzer, South Carolina. 2020, Marlene, the little sister there, was living in Santa Rosa Beach, Florida. That's where the grandmother's house that burned down was, by the way. And she died in 2020.

Wow. She's dead. And so they're all buried. Robert Vannoy Black Jr. is in Huntsville at the, no, he's in the Houston National Cemetery. So he was in the military.

He can go in there. So there, he's buried there and that is Stark, Florida and Bryan, Texas and some crazy goddamn shit. I'm sorry, that's a wild story. What a story. From top to bottom. That is a, Florida and Bryan, Texas and some crazy goddamn shit. I'm sorry. That's a wild story from top to bottom. That is a lot of murder and a lot of craziness and cousin fucking.

When you throw that in there, it really makes it weird. So, holy shit. If you like that, tell the world about it. I don't shit. Get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. Say something nice. It does help drive us up the charts.

Certainly listen to our other two podcasts. i can say two because they're coming up one is crime and sports it's been going on for years and it's it's hilarious i'm sorry we do a great job on crime and sports if you like this show you'll like that show and finally also september 18th we're finally getting your stupid opinions it's coming out we cannot wait it's going to be weekly lost just making fun of people's stupid reviews from the internet of everything under the sun. So check those out and do that. Head over to shut up and give me murder.com is the name of our site. Not only that, shut up and give me murder.com slash virtual live.

Get your tickets to the virtual live show. Oh, we can't wait. We can't wait. October the 26th, we're doing another one. Wherever you are in the world, come out and watch us. Or not come out, stay in. Do what you want. Stay in your living room. I don't care what you do. Sit in your car, sit in the yard, do whatever you want.

But you can do it. It's going to be available from October 26th for a week after that. So all through Halloween as well. It's going to be nice. We're going to have costumes on. We're going to do a Halloween themed episode, a nice creepy murder. Sure.

So much fun. We can't wait for that. So get your tickets right now. Shut up and give me murder.com slash virtual live. They are on sale as we speak. Also, while you're at shut up and give me murder.com. Yeah.

Get your tickets for the Dallas show on December 2nd. And I think we just released a few tickets for Philly so they might still be there. By the time you hear this they might be gone. I don't know. Get your tickets for both of those. Thank you for selling the rest of it out everybody. We really appreciate it. Boston sold out in like three days like ten months ago. Unbelievable. You guys are incredible. Thank you

for all that you do for us. We cannot wait to come see you for shows. Patreon dot com slash Crime and Sports is where you get all the bonus material. Super easy to get. Costs five bucks. Anybody, five bucks a month or more, it's a cup of coffee will get you so much stuff. Way more

than a cup of coffee. It will get you over 200 back bonus episodes that are in there that you can listen to and binge. And then you're going to get new ones every other week. One Crime and Sports, one small town murder. You get it all. You do. This week, what you're going to get for crime and sports,

we're going to talk about a gambling thing that was going on in hockey in the 2000s involving a very legendary player and a turned coach and a whole big mess called Operation Slapshot. And then we'll also talk about the movie Slapshot, which somehow we had never seen. As adult men, it's the oddest thing. And we saw it on the same night, and we both loved it, and we want to talk about

it, and we wish we could add it to our list of greatest sports movies, but we already did that. So we'll give it its own due. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about some behind-the-scenes stuff of that. It'll be fun stuff. So check that out then for Small Town Murder. We're going to talk about a very fun subject being with burning man being a mess and then fire festival 2 happening uh we're going to talk about fire festival what a disaster it was and why no one should ever give

billy mcfarland 10 cents if they expect to see it back so yeah there you go check that out patreon.com slash crime and sports and of course yeah you are going to get a shout so yeah there you go check that out patreon.com slash crime and sports and of course yeah you are going to get a shout out yeah i'm here while jimmy will mispronounce your name and try to get it right when does that shout out happen jimmy right goddamn now jimmy hit me with the names of the people who would never ever answer an ad in soldier of fortune magazine to have us killed hit me with them now this week's executive producers are uh martin martin's son steven maul uh k Norweg, and his pup responding well to treatment. That's wonderful.

Terrific. Todd Cavallo, Catherine Connaughton up in Canada. Thank you, Catherine. Connaughton in Canada? Incredibly sweet. Connaughton in Canadia. In Canadiana. What an angel of a woman.

Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Andrew Grange. Rest in peace, Bob Barker. We've killed him a few times on the show, and he is now officially dead. Several times. Matthew Berube, maybe, Holden Bazingas, Scott McDonald. And he had a ticket for Charlotte, but it's too late for you. Janice Hill, Arnold Ziffel, and Wilbur Zuckerman's anniversary. Rabbi Shmulevich and his quest to read every Harlequin book ever written.

Whatever that means. Terrific. Get in there. Jimmy the Wax Stick Wisman, Cody and Delaney Leversey. Happy birthday. No. Happy birthday. No, it's their anniversary.

Happy birthday to your marriage. Happy anniversary. Birthday. Happy marriage. Birthday. Ah, this time someone squeezed your marriage out of their twat. Good job, guys. Thomas Smith, Ronnie Hubbard, Nathan with no last name, Troy Lobel,

Suratag Ant, Suratag, Suratag, Liz Brinkley, Jamie McKean, Sia, I think, with no last name, Michael Werame, Annie Harris, not Annis Harry. All right. Annis Harry. Oh, boy. SC, with no last name. D'You Today, Van Ash, Van Widjic. All right.

That's not right. Baby Yaga, Susan Churchill, Ryan Mayo. Ginger Noble, Lindsay Collette, Kennedy Lemieux, Blake Kernighan-Hills, Keely Berrientes-Christians, Whitney with no last name, Katie Dow, Melanie Scott, Darren Foyle, William Brown, Susan with no last name, KB Carson, William Menteo, Emmy with no last name, Mark Parambo, Ashley with no last name, Zach with no last name. KB Carson. William Menteo. Emmy with no last name. Mark Parambo. Ashley with no last name. Zach with no last name.

Kendall with no last name. Richard Herman. Taylor Mann. Nick Robinson. Sophie Tix. Jonathan. Jonathan. Jonathan.

Jonathan. Jonathan. Jan. Joel Doolka. Crystal with no last name. Jessica Collier. Fiddly Frog. Taylor Burns.

Eric from Portland. Tommy D. Jen Collier. Fiddly Frog. Taylor Burns. Eric from Portland. Tommy D. Jen. Gene. Gene E. Johnson. Sky Man. Brianna Taylor. Bobby O'Hara.

Gina Fortune. Andrew Garange. Justin with no last name. Etienne Peralt. Carissa with no last name. Oh, boy. Peralt. Yep.

Sonia Harry. Angioli. Angioli. Angioli. Peptta. Yep. Sonia Harry. Angioli. Angioli. Angiolipeptic. Paul Harris. Patrick Morales. Anna K. LP.

Sun Barrett. Megan Gorey. Adam B. Devin Martinez. Rob. Jade. With no last name. Jade Aguilar.

Amanda Godsey. Aileen Murphy. Chase. Oh, boy. Slezinski. Salina. Salina, Selina and Kendall Reeve, Jacob Nuss, Bernadette with no last name, Bailey Booney, Booney, June Richardson, Homeslice and the Boat, Adam with no last name, Dr. MX Kelly, Holly, Holly Dennis, Sarah J., Lisa C. Wirt. Oh, Lisa C. Wirt. All right. Jenna Nautilus, Nadelus, Nay Dallas.

Cameron Smith, Nathan Weddle. We don't weddle. We don't. All right. Amory DeJoey. What are those? Amory DeJoey. All right.

Shannon Sprout, Tammy Brown. Leslie with no last name. Mike Hawks. All right. Are you proud of you, Tommy Parisi, Garrett Gardner, Alex Thornhill, Maria Hunter, Jordan Tornabini, John Lurcher, Lisa Chamberlain and Matthew Berube, Alan, oh, Jesus, Lorberbaum, Taylor Smith, Mary Willis, Larry Conger, Erica Knoll, Ethan Whitehead, Kerschners, 14358. That's not a phone number. Cam with no last name. Daryl Yarrow. Chad Wilber. Jess with no last name.

Jen Johnson. Brittany Matt White. Courtney Quam. Micah Chatfield. Robert Forbes., Angel, Angela, Cardo, Kayla Fy, Declan, Declan with no last name, Catherine Chirac, Gilly, Gilly Bobbs, Nelly Fonzarelli, Alexis, Kaijanecki, Kaijanecki Jenke, Kai Jagu, Abby S. Perfect. Nailed it.

Julia Real, Eva Thorpe, Shanna Polite, Chris Moyle, Celine Deskunk, Anne Wimmer, Elizabeth Kay, Rob Crow, Tamara Culver, Arisa Ar Arice Clorinda Harvey with no, oh, alright, Chris with no last name Henry Purdy, Christian Kristen, Kristen Cunningham Landon Wayne, Jade Trimble Beverly Solshine Bianca with no last name, Joe Fight

Tia Hawley, Dabrofsko Jazara Jr. Arara Ara Ara? Alright, A-R-A. That's a name. That's a person. Thank you. Alisa Adlam.

Angie Richards. Jay Melton. Bob with no last name. Donovan Black. Brendan Brett. Andrew Revelist. I expected something more complicated. Brett.

I took a breather for that. Andrew Revelist. Roy Weathington. Mike Kubiak. Probably not. breather for that. Andrew Revelis. Roy Weathington. Mike Kubiak. Probably not. Maybe. Gary Sun. Possibly.

It was a Yahoo address. It probably is. Chloe Pickering. Ryan Fosna. Stephanie Price. Natasha Armstrong. Kelly. Kelly Carter.

Jesse Wilkins. Jory Thompson. Weston Tucker. Natalie Marie, P.S. That's just the names. Lucy Gunderson, Tony Smith, Amber Rowley, Kate Hedges, Caitlin Long, Jamie Campbell, Paul Churicato, Cara Chacko. All right. Paul Churicato, Kara Chacko.

All right. Corey Madison, Linda Gravely, Kevin Dierstein, Otter with no last name, Ashley Smith, Michael Barrett, Kat Harvey, Cora Lukehart, Keith Lennon, Christy with no last name, Vicky with no last name, Megan with no last name, Alana Renee, Alyssa Lemon, Chris Conley, Nicole Schuldays, Deborah Hounsell, Mike with no last name, Lori Checkley, Mandy Ramirez, JJ Bullhart, Susan Bryan, Brandon Peterson, Tricia Reddy, Jessica Long, Caitlin Wellborn, Jenny Gilliam, L.L. L.E. Heed, Jill Free, Kaylee Buchholz, Tanya, Tanya Layden, Jesse Wallace, Jennifer Madison, Ward Vogel, Stephanie Lynn, Daniel Cropley, Hannah with no last name, Daniel Farron, Leah Apple, Chris Ferguson, Bruce Ballweg. All right.

Nice name. Chris Ballweg. Wag those balls, Bruce. Strong name. nice chris chris strong those balls bruce strong name uh chris allen peggy timmons simmons uh terry esposito scott wales kate roach kade roach uh isaac isaac clinger dylan graham kaylin kaylin baker nicky with no last name joe Beans for breakfast, Miranda Childers. Avoid her by lunch. What is that? Avoid her by lunch. Zoe Tuttle.

Carol Andradeze. Andradeze. Tiffany Lambert. Andrew Chiali. Chiali. Chiala. Chiala. Chiala.

Tiffany Hensley Cummings. Patricia Pratt. Terry. Colleen McGinnis. Elizabeth Jackson. Mark Lilly. and all of our patrons. You're amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody, so much for all that you do for us.

We hope you love the bonus stuff as much as we love making it. Thanks for hanging out with us and doing all that shit. We really do appreciate it. If you want to get a hold of us on social media, excessively easy to do that. Shut up and give me murder.com. Links are right there. Come see us. Keep coming back becausecessively easy to do that. Shut up and give me murder.com. Links are right there. Come see us. Keep coming back because we can't stop coming back.

And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.