Small Town Murder - #423 - The Killer Has Something In His Pants - Walsenburg, Colorado

Episode Date: September 21, 2023

This week, in Walsenburg, Colorado, the whole area panics, when a man is found in front of his house, very bloody, and barely conscious. But his real concern is his wife, who turns out to be dead, in the kitchen. He tells a harrowing story of home invaders, tormenting the couple for multiple days. It seems to be a real mystery, until detectives discover the case of another woman, who seemingly disappeared off the face of the earth. Is it enough to put the killer away?Along the way, we find out that southern Colorado is mine country, that there's only so many times you can go to the bathroom in your pants, and that one missing wife is a problem, two is a major issue!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Walsenburg, Colorado, what appears to be a vicious home invasion takes a wild turn when some new details emerge, including that the lone survivor of this attack has another tragedy in his past.

Welcome to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrogallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us. We're here. You're there.

There you are. I'm sick as can be. Oh, boy. I apologize for sounding terribly. Too much sugar in your sweet tea, James. Wow. This is, yeah, the South at Charlotte Airport, in addition to holding me hostage for eight hours, also ensickened me.

So I'm just atotte airport can eat every dick that is available so my god stuff inside you i'm still bitter jimmy i'm bitter they lied to us and i'm not happy about it so never mind all that though we have a wild episode for you today a crazy one it's been a while since we've been in Colorado. A couple things off the top. First, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com slash virtual live, and you will find tickets to the virtual live show October the 26th. It's our Halloween spectacular. You bet. We are just like a regular live show.

All the pictures, all the visuals. Us, we're going to have costumes and something silly. What are we going to dress as? You never know. And it'll be available for a week after the 26th as well, so all through Halloween. It's going to be wonderful. Get your tickets right now.

We cannot wait. We're excited for that, and do that. And definitely also at shutupandgivememurder.com. Get your tickets to Dallas on December 2nd. I think everything else is sold out until then, but thank you. We can't wait for our East Coast shows, our Northeast shows.

We're excited for those. Can't wait. So East Coast shows our Northeast shows we're excited for those can't wait so shut up and give me murder dot com for those you certainly want to keep your eye out right now because if you're listening to this when it comes out regularly it's already out your stupid opinions our new podcast we're so excited

listen and laugh your asses off because we really think it's a good time we make fun of all things reviews and it's reviews of everything, place, person, anything you can imagine that's reviewable, which is everything because the Internet is all reviews. It's all it is. So that's what we're going to do. We can't wait for that. You certainly want to check out Patreon if you haven't got Patreon yet. Anybody $5 or above, you're going to get access to everything we have

for the price of a cup of coffee. You really can't beat it. That's patreon.com slash crimeinsports which is the name of our other podcast that you should also be listening to because we've had some wild, gross, nasty stuff going on over there lately. So check that out this week which you're going to get in addition

to the back catalog and new ones every other week for Crime and Sports which you'll have access to. For the, which you're going to get in addition to the back catalog and new ones every other week for crime and sports, which you'll have access to for the bonus. We're going to talk about Operation Slapshot, which was a big hockey scandal with gambling. And it's also it's a mess and including very legendary players. And we'll also talk about the movie Slapshot, which somehow neither of us had seen until like a month ago. I don't know how we missed it. We watched it the the same time, and we want to add it to our list of top sports movies and talk about that.

And then for Small Town Murder, we are going to talk about Fire Festival. Oh, baby. What happened with Burning Man and Fire Festival 2 allegedly going to happen. We should delve into this and really talk about it and Billy McFarlane and the mess that happened. From cheese sandwiches to non-existent villas, we'll into all of it there that's going to be a lot of fun patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of that and more that said disclaimer time this is a comedy show we're comedians we are certainly going to make jokes and people are

certainly going to die thing is those things happen separately that's how that works there's nothing funny about an actual murder when someone's being killed that's not like oh my god a hammer right in the forehead oh god that's that's not funny but what is funny is someone going if i take this hammer and just wash it off in the garden hose and then put it back no one will know that's funny because that person's an idiot and those are the type of things we make fun of and uh that's how that works so it's very tasteful what we go out of our way not are the type of things we make fun of. And that's how that works. So it's very tasteful. What we go out of our way not to do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victim's family. Why, James?

Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's how that works. Exactly. So if that sounds good to you, wow, you're going to hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, maybe we're not for you. Who knows? But you've already been warned. No complaining later.

There it is. I think it's time, everybody, to take a deep breath here through your stuffed noses, if you're anything like me. Hands to the sky and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, Jimmy. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it.

We're going to one of your favorite states here, Colorado. Oh, it's so lovely. Here's Colorado. Well, down here, it's not quite as lovely as what you're thinking of. We're going to Walsenburg, Colorado. Different. This is a mining area down here. It's not, you know, this isn't a ski resort type of place.

It's a far cry from Vail. I was going to say, there's the Aspens, and then there's the mining towns. And so, not quite the same. This is southern Colorado, kind of south central Colorado, about two and a half hours to Denver, about an hour and a half to Colorado Springs. Oh, yeah. On the way over there. Hour and a half is all? two and a half hours to Denver, about an hour and a half to Colorado Springs. Oh, yeah. On the way over there. Hour and a half is all?

Hour and a half. That's it. And about five hours to Cortez, Colorado, which was our last episode, which was, I think it was over nine months ago, I think. Which was The Undercover Idiot, which is a great name for an episode. So area code here, 719. The motto here, this is hilarious they just let they grabbed any 10 year old and they were like come up with a motto on the spot and they went yep that's the one and put it on the website quote a great place to be welcome exclamation

point exclamation point so doesn't really tell you a whole lot there it is there it is welcome thanks for coming so a little bit of history first post office here was around 1870 so that's when it's kind of been an official town since it was named after fred walsen who's an early settler oh that's all well it's nothing nothing walsensberg not like a german word that meant something else or any of that just Just a guy named Fred. That's all. Robert Ford, who's the famous gunman here, he had a saloon gambling house in Walsenburg. Really?

For a long time. Yeah. Which is pretty neat. At 320 West 7th Street. And it still stands. Or his home still stands. Not the saloon. Not the saloon slash gambling hall.

It was burned down. I was going to say, I was going to assume that was burned to the ground in slash gambling hall. It was burned down. I was going to say, I was assuming that was burned to the ground at least 100 years ago. So they had the Colorado Coal Field War here. Oh. Okay, this was a strike of the United Mine Workers of America against the Rockefeller-owned Colorado Fuel and Iron in 1913 and 1914. the rockefeller owned colorado fuel and iron in 1913 and 1914 and this town walsenburg was the site of a colorado and southern railway stop and location of several gun battles before and after this uh ludlow massacre that happened in 1914 that killed over a dozen women and children right when colorado national guard opened fire on a striker encampment

at ludlow which is 22 miles away from our town here so we've talked about that before yeah but there's also a sign on the side of the road that tells all about it yeah i remember stopping there as a kid and reading all about the ludlow massacre we're like wish we wouldn't have stopped here hey mom this is grim this is is there like a stuckies nearby can we get one of those pecan rolls to wash down talking to your sister mom's a real grim karen today we gotta the hell she's stopping here for jesus christ is she trying to tell us at least we're not them there's an arby's two more exits up like we could have stopped there this is bullshit you don't like this so yeah they had all sorts of things like that the battle of walsenberg took place on april 28th and 9th 1914 and it was the penultimate engagement of the national guard and militia

against the pro strikers during a 10-day war the pro stri-strikers took on the military? Took on, yeah, the militia and the National Guard and all that. I mean, yeah. And so several men on both sides, as well as other civilians who had nothing to do with anything, were killed before the strikers finally withdrew. So Walsenberg is mentioned in the Woody Guthrie song, Ludlow Massacre, which is a real a real toe tapper let me tell you

that's uh request that in the club next time you go yeah the girls will just be you'll know where they are because there'll be a trail behind them of you know just just wet so holy shit 1927 28 another coal strike down here in 1970 or 1927. The coal mines in Walsenburg were one of the tons that were shut down statewide after all this stuff. So in 20 this century here, 21st century, in June of 2013, the Boy Scouts at Spanish Peak Scout Ranch. Bad things happen there. I know both of us went, we looked at each other and went, they have a whole ranch? Noticed an uncontrolled fire near East Spanish Peak

which rapidly grew over the next few days, growing into the East Peak Fire. And Walzenburg was placed under pre-evacuation notice. The fire burned over 13,000 acres of Colorado. And the Boy Scouts discovered it? They found it. There it is, everybody. They didn't put it out. They didn't do boy scouts discovered it they found it there it is everybody

they didn't put it out didn't do shit about it but they found it there it is thanks kids sometimes i feel like somebody that found the fire probably started the fire hey grab a bucket of water shithead let's go yeah be prepared motherfucker where's your putting out that fire badge i don't see that badge on your shirt right now not tying isn't real helpful at the moment yeah so let's find out what other people think of this town with some reviews oh baby uh five stars is your first one here all right it is a small town with very helpful people leveling in it they spelled living wrong if they spelled living with an e leveling when no i so one vowel in the word living one vowel and none of them are eyes one vowel and it's not an i jimmy that's scary vng that's the l e v l n g leveling helpful people leveling in it uh it is very quite i assume they mean quiet quiet

but the community is good and you will feel safe okay not not not a deep well of uh vocabulary yeah i'm not i this this is a type of person where if they told me that and again the internet you read something it sounds one way but imagine the person saying this if they told me that in, again, the internet, you read something, it sounds one way, but imagine the person saying this. If they told you anything, you would not believe it. Nothing. No, you'd go, oh, you're soaked in urine and yelling at me in a street corner. I don't want to hear that. So four stars. This is a beautiful area, just expensive to live here, which it's absolutely not. I don't believe that for a second. We'll give you the stats. Anything south of Colorado Springs to the border is cheap as shit. Nobody wants it. We'll give you the stats.

It is dirt cheap to live here. It's like Honduras here. It's fucking price-wise. Let's see. Three stars. The only auto repair shop that is honest and reliable is Daniel's Towing and Auto Repair and Communication. That's it. That's the whole review. The only one. shop that is honest and reliable is daniel's towing and auto repair and communication that's

it that's the whole review i don't care about anything else schools culture restaurants infrastructure there's the water bed daniel's towing and auto repair top-notch transmit transmission specialists that's what they are in In Walsenburg, Colorado. In Walsenburg, Colorado. I almost called them transistor specialists, which is not the word I'm looking for. Three stars. The only restaurant worth eating at is George's Drive-In. Great food, good prices, and outstanding service.

What has happened? This has become an advertisement section i feel like daniel and george got together and had a good idea tell you what you do for me and i'll do for you yeah what if because that's yeah one will say george the other will say daniel but we'll go to every site and we'll do this um wow two stars okay now we're back to normal people who aren't trying to sell us anything here two stars trying to get someone to help around here is like pulling teeth, unless you know or are related to someone. The only helpful person is Todd Stevens at 245 Main Street. You might want to stop by his business, Todd Stevens Printing and More.

He's so helpful. Dude, this is help with what? Yeah, what are we talking about? Is your house on fire or do you need like a landscaper? Which one? Because those are very different problems. Stop coming over and asking for sugar and salt. Go to the store and buy it.

And if your house is on fire or a crime crime has taken place you shouldn't have to know or be related to anyone to get help for that that should just be who's this calling i don't know hang up on the place no i know julie oh josh he knows julie everybody get in the fire truck at the dalmatian and everything. He knows Julie. Very rare that that occurs right there. So this place is interesting. It's fascinating so far. I'm fascinated. Now we have a couple of one-star reviews.

One star. If you are at all well-read and well-traveled, Walls and Burgh is, all capital letters, not the place for you. The only reason people live here is probably because they inherited their homes from their parents. There are no jobs to speak of, no decent restaurants. And as another reviewer said, people probably, I thought he was going to go, Daniel's towing and auto repair. Just so you know. Just so you know, as another reviewer said, people probably only live here to help their aging parents. The city is corrupt and don't appear to be making economic development a priority.

My goodness. Run for office, friend. Wow. That's what it sounds like. Sounds like that's what they're doing. This is their. So people are advertising their towing businesses and announcing their congressional campaigns in the review section of niche.com one star everyone talks about wanting to get out but few can make enough to actually leave

there's a highway man just get on it you'll figure it out eventually it costs a lot to get a bus a bus ticket i mean yeah i guess you got to settle in somewhere but yeah i mean shit i don't care don't pay your rent and there for two months and and yeah you know i don't know something there's gotta be out on break your lease and run yeah there's i mean it's make them try to find you just get in the car and go get on a bus and go so people in this town 3034 not a lot wow that is a small town in the middle of fucking nowhere, as you know. Truly nowhere.

It's the middle of nowhere. I mean, that's not a lot of people just plunked down in the middle of somewhere. Is this south of Pueblo? I think it is. It is, I think, yeah. If it is, there is nothing. No, there's nothing around here. It's known for it.

It's a mining place. There's mines everywhere out there, like abandoned mines, old mines. You can go for hours or days and look through them. More males than females by a lot, which is also not usual for us. Median age is a lot higher than normal. It's 46 and a half. There's very few children. There's children.

All those demographics are low. Old people, teaming with old people. Really? 65 plus, 65 to 74, it's like double. It's like double, 75 to 84, and way higher in the 85 and over. So it's a place where I guess it's quiet and slow if you want to slow down a bit if you're 85 and over. 37% married here, 22% single with children's a lot of older people uh race in this town 41 white 41.2 white 0.0 black 0.0 asian 0.7 uh native american 57 hispanic

in this town so religion here 65 religious in this town that is oh very strange uh for just a middle of nowhere town and it's the hispanic people because it is 50.5 percent are catholic so catholics as we know are the baptists of the rocky mountain region yeah obviously the baptists of the rockies here 0.0 percent jewish that's not happening in this county what is this whore whore fano h-u-e-r-f-a-n-o uh it's got to be where where where fano where fano okay i don't know where he is where fano uh fano i't. They're looking for you. Somebody's asking. Oh, Farofano. Get over here. Farofano.

In this last election, this county, 47.1% of the people voted Democrat, 50% even voted Republican, and 2.9% independent. The economy here, unemployment rate's a bit high here. It's almost 10%. The rest of the country, it's under 4%. So that says a lot. It's almost 10%. The rest of the country, it's under 4%. So that says a lot. That's way high. Median household income here is $33,372 a year, which is like half the national average. That's not good. Cost of living, though, is also low. 100 is average here at 73, and the housing is the low thing. Median home cost $183,600, which on 33 grand is still not.

It's still steep. That's a tough hill to climb. Yeah. Yeah. So if you want to climb that hill, everybody, put on your climbing shoes. Get your yodeling lungs ready. And we have for you the Walsenburg, Colorado Real Estate Report. The average two-bedroom rental here goes for

$1,030, which is cheaper than the national average by a bit, but still steep. I think you're better off buying. Here's a one-bedroom, one-bath 761 squaresquare-foot house. It is built in 1915. It looks like the kid from Willy Wonka.

Was it Charlie Buckets? Is that the kid that sleeps with his grandfather? It looks like their house inside. The cabinets have coal soot on them. It's the weirdest shit I've ever seen. Either that or someone dusted it for prints after a horrible tragedy. That may be a thing. It might be it.

Either one wouldn't surprise me. $75,000 for this. What? Yes. There's a big old like old old wood burning stove right in the middle of the living room. Like in the middle of it. Does it have acreage? No. 700 square feet for 70 grand?

75 grand, yeah. Wow. I don't know what they're thinking here. This house here, this is a problem. A lot of the places are expensive because they come with land. This one here is a two-bedroom, two-bath. T-bowl for each and every b-hole, but not a lot of b-holes. Both of them.

1,292 square feet, so not very big, but on 9.24 acres. Okay. And this house looks, it's adobe, adobe, wood, adobe, wood. That's all it is, the whole damn house. It's how somebody would decorate their house if they're like, I want it to be like Southwest-y and adobe. This is how they would make a house it's one of those a lot of rocks that sort of thing to look at 435 000 for that though holy shit because you're buying nine acres yeah next up six bedroom three bath this is on 1903 acres. Almost 2,000 acres.

That's a shitload of land. That's so much land. That's so much land. It's a big ranch, I guess you'd call it. It says, quote, complete with a log home, modular home, barn, outbuildings, and arena. But they don't have any pictures of that stuff. Really? No, but they have them.

It's something, but $2,165,000 for that. For 1,900 acres of Colorado. For basically a plot of land the size of a small city. That is so big. I think Tucson is about that size. That's a decent- size plot of land i think holy shit i'm concerned uh i now want to run 5ks until the end of time so i can raise two million dollars and get that house whoever buys that keep an eye on them they're up to

something that's all we're saying it's all we're saying from everything yeah that much land that far from everything nothing's growing out there you know what you're doing yeah so things to do the walsenberg porch fest okay yeah that's something i can get behind what's a porch fest is the question the website that puts out to everybody everyone yeah puts out to everybody. Poses to everyone, yeah. Poses, puts out. Here we go. Nothing to overthink here. Oh, that's good. It's just a big decentralized block party. Oh. All right, that's good.

Simply an excuse to get outside, meet new neighbors, and reconnect with community. It's not, it's just go outside. You could do that any day. You don't need. I kind of like this, though, because then you could go out on your patio. This is like you're participating. Wave to some people. Head back on inside. But they're going to come up and talk to you because it's encouraged on this day.

Is it encouraged to come on the property? I think so. We can do this from your patio on my patio. I think we're supposed to go porch to porch, babe, and just do it. Oh, we're porch hopping it says fill up a water bottle pack some snacks slather on the spf leave the cars at home bring a chair or blanket for live music and travel in numbers you want me to drag a fucking chair around all day it says you are responsible for your own behavior safety and welfare at porch fest you're walking around in your neighborhood this is not a festival there's It says you are responsible for your own behavior, safety, and welfare at Porch Fest.

You're walking around in your neighborhood. This is not a festival. There's no admission. There's no gate. There's no organization. How dangerous is this town? This is the weirdest goddamn thing ever. I don't understand.

What's it cost? It's free. Well, I guess so. It better be. You're not giving me anything. So I can walk down my street for free today. Great. Holy shit.

And then there's also Mountain Mining Days. Yeah. It says each September, the Walsenburg Downtown Revitalization Committee presents Mountain Mining Days as an end of summer celebration at Miners Plaza in Walsenburg. The fun starts with a downtown parade featuring marching bands, horses, collectible cars, and so much more. How much more do you think it is? Probably not a lot more. I bet not much. I bet it's not

much more. Yeah, the annual events here, they have performances. Among the well-known musicians who have come to the festival through the years, this isn't who's going to be there this year. This is who's been here uh this is their a list here by the way they're going to really pluck from it carlos nunez oh um is that the real name of somebody that's what i mean or he's the guitar player for you know i don't even know. Is that Ricky Martin's real name?

Maybe. Yeah. I'm not even sure. So the High Kings? No. Don't know them. I think they've actually, we've had them on another small town festival, I think. The Old Blind Dogs.

Well, I mean, obviously they're going to put on quite the spectacle. Kevin Burke will be there. Yeah. Panties drop and left and right on quite the spectacle. Kevin Burke will be there. Yeah. Panties dropping left and right, as we know, when Kevin Burke's in town. Kevin Burke. I think I went to high school with a guy named Kevin Burke. Yeah, everybody did, because that's a very common name. I buy insurance from a guy named Kevin Burke.

You know what I don't do? Watch him on stage perform, because he's a boring man named Kevin Burke. John Doyle. You know who's more boring than Kevin Burke? boring man named Kevin Burke. John Doyle. You know who's more boring than Kevin Burke? Only one guy. John Boyle. John Doyle. Doyle.

Doyle. Martin Hayes. What the fuck is happening? People, stage names. Stage names, people. You're fucking musicians. What are you doing? You're tackling Hollywood.

Let's go. I want Burke, Doyle, and Hayes to team up and form a band and name it something. That's what I want. High Time is another one. Moya Brennan. Okay. Kevin Crawford. I don't know who these people are.

This is so bad. Martine de Cogian. Yeah. Is that a French country singer? I've never heard of that before. That's new. What the fuck? Edian. Yeah. Is that a French country singer? I've never heard of that before. That's new. What the fuck? Ed Miller.

Yeah. And many, many others. Well, I don't know where to sign up, but I'm in, everybody. Let's do it. So that's the festival. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in. Property crime, almost double the national average. Oh, my God.

3,000 people in this town. Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime, about 25% above the national average. It is so dangerous. For 3,000 people, you better be scared of all of them is what we're saying because it sounds terrifying. Three times higher for property and violence? Double. Double for property crime.

My God. That is something. That's some shit right there. That said, unsurprisingly, let's talk about a murder. Yeah. Judging by these stats, this happens all the time. It's pretty, yeah. I saw there was a recent murder a couple years ago, and the murderer's name is Psycho.

That's his... Yeah. He's got tattoos all over his face and they said they were looking for Psycho and then they caught Psycho. And I was like, oh, that's good. You want to catch Psycho when he's loose. Did they wait for Porch Pirate Day?

What was it? Yeah, that's what they did. They caught him. It was a coordinated effort with the guy in Pennsylvania they were trying to catch. They couldn't catch either. So this one, let's talk about some people. Let's talk about a murder here. let's talk about some people let's talk

about a murder here uh let's talk about first of all a man let's do this uh ralph candelario okay okay now we discussed remember i sent jimmy a map when we were out of town because i found it and i found it fascinating where there are italian people in the united states and it had like a you know different colors for where they are and there's the United States and it had like, you know, different colors for where they are. And there's- The denser, the more blue or whatever it was. We're in like three places in the whole country, basically. The rest of it, the whole middle of the whole South,

that were nowhere to be found. It's Florida, New York, and the UP. Couple up there. And then the Northwest too. There's a- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's where we came over to and a few in New Orleans.

Outside of that- It's fascinating that they're- And Chicago. So dense in, yeah. Because that's where we came over to and a few in New Orleans. Outside of that. It's fascinating that they're so dense in the UP. That's it. Yeah, but that's of the percentage of people that are there. Right. In that area, there's like 100 people and there's an Italian family, so they're going to be. There's 40 that are Italian. Yeah, more represented.

But you noticed and you said Southern Colorado? What the hell is an Italian? It's a fucking wild ass place for them to be mine country though yeah those are all a lot of the places are where there's mines are where things happen and outdoor shit because when we got here you know we'd go do whatever so like we remember you grease it you just grease us up throw some pasta in our pockets and shoot us down a hole that's how it works drop them in the opening that's the only explanation I have for Ralph Candelario being in this area. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity,

that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.

Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one

and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Or he's in the program. Or he's in the program. Well, then he wouldn't be Ralph Candel pro well then he wouldn't be ralph

no he'd just be ralph candy ralph candy where you from al candy des moines iowa okay sure you are yeah so ralph's born in 1964 here ralphie um he's got a mom named June, Mama June, who we'll definitely have a discussion about later because she's a piece of work. I don't know what exactly his upbringing was like, but judging by what I'm going to tell you in a little while, what am I going to tell you in a little while, it was said there, but judging by that,

you're going to go, wow, he must have had an interesting childhood. So he finds a woman growing up here. He finds Dina, D-E-N-A, Angelique Candelario when he marries her here. She's born in 1968, a few years younger. They hook up in the late 80s, get married in the 92-ish. Okay. As of 1991, Dina is a nurse in the 207th evacuation hospital.

She's in the military. She's a military nurse. I guess they're extending reservists' tours of duty in Iraq at the time. People are upset about it. They said they have the threat

of war, which hadn't happened yet. Also, you know, all this type of thing. They said that George Bush at the time, number one, the first one, George Bush, not W, asked for authority to extend these reservists for up to two years. The active duty service of military reservists for the Persian Gulf. Yeah. So she was one of these people. service of military reservists for the persian gulf crisis yeah so she was one of these people so yeah the first reservist called active duty after iraq landed in kuwait last august are completing their maximum six months of service in february and they want to extend them so

they said that um ralph candelario the newspaper interviews here and he called the proposal screwy it's not fair hey it's screwy let me tell you something something sounds screwy to me what is he in the little rascals alfalfa ain't that screwy it is okay it's also fishy it's it's a little fishy i tell you something stinks like yesterday's fish so make like a tree and leave, would you? He said, quote, I can understand it, but I'd be bitter. I'd like to see it like Vietnam where you served a year unless you reenlisted. You would not like it. Yeah, nothing should be. But he wants the Vietnam a year and out.

Yeah. Plan to happen. But yeah, don't say I'd like to see it like Vietnam. Never say that when we're entering a war. That's not a good one. I'd like us to stick around, you know, have everybody be miserable and then come home with nothing gained. I'd really like that to happen, you know, and it'd be good. I'd like to see it exactly happen like Vietnam.

I'd like to really fuck the soldiers over and have them fight a war for no reason. That'd be good, you know? That'd be good for everybody. Have them be a mess when they come back and kind of abandon them. You know what I mean? Oh, it's going to be great. It's going to be great. So Dina here, she at the time is a nurse, like we said, and she had just returned from

their honeymoon, and she's called up. Oh. said and she had just returned from their honeymoon and she's called up oh now i don't know how she returned from her honeymoon because they couldn't it's interesting we'll talk about it but they apparently they just returned from their honeymoon and ralph said this is hard on me i'm down that she's leaving but i'm proud of her so they have two kids at the time, two sons. They have Joel and Aaron. Joel is born in 1994, and I think Aaron's born in 93. So that's how that works. August of 2004, Aaron's 11 years old.

Yeah, so he was born in 93. His parents recently separated now. Dina and Ralph have separated. And one day, after a weekend at his dad's house here, Aaron went home to his mom's house and found there was a note on the coffee table. And he said it was in kind of

weird handwriting. Didn't really recognize it as his mom's, but it said, I love you, my boys, and I'm taking off. That's all the note said. And his mother wasn't home dina was gone yeah so aaron was like what the fuck and um so you know he went to his dad and his dad said oh maybe she moved to missouri wild it's fascinating how these people can just come to a conclusion of where these people went. Well, apparently she'd been talking to some guy online, and he said, you know, maybe she ran away to be with him.

I don't know. That's what she had to be told as a kid. Like, I can't tell you. I'm not in her head. So Aaron didn't know what to do. So he would search the Internet for any signs of his mom. He was trying to find his mom. And she just never came home and

never contacted them again poof thin air ma ma gone ma do that oh you can't do that so she was last seen in pueblo colorado on august 15th 2004 and she was never heard from by anybody ever again ever not just her kids her family sister mother people like that no one ever heard from her again ralph candelario her husband reported her missing on september 6th she left on august 15th now they were separated so i don't know if it's his job to you know to tell the cops or if that's like her family's job at that point or what but he told police he thought dina had just left him because they were separated and having problems and he thought that you know

she probably ran away with some guys she met online done is done yeah yeah so they investigate because she's a missing person they can't find her and ralph is questioned by the pueblo police department he passes a polygraph test indicating he had nothing to do with her disappearance or anything like that. They discovered through forensic computer work here that Dina had been corresponding with numerous people online, including some with lengthy criminal histories. She'd been numerous men that had lengthy criminal history. She's been when you meet someone online, like we said, you don't know who the fuck they are. No. Who knows?

And something lengthy about them, but not necessarily that. There were some indications that Dina may have gone to visit one of these men and just never returned. So they're like, they don't know which guy. They don't know who this person is, but she might have just gone to visit somebody. So she could be literally anywhere. Yeah, and that's the danger, obviously, of the Internet like that. Anybody could have been anybody back then. It's way worse back then.

Yeah, oh, way worse. Yeah, people are a little more savvy with it now. There's little tricks and stuff like that, but back then they would just talk to somebody, build up a fantasy, and go to Missouri at a whim. And then get turned inside out. Yeah, you never know. So Ralph, after a little bit, seeks a legal divorce from her. So I guess she's not coming back. I mean, they were separated anyway.

And during this time, he begins a relationship with a new woman, Dana Franklin. That is way too close. You can't have a Dina and then a Dana. Um, yeah. You're calling Dana Dina at some point. For sure. Absolutely. Yes.

How positive that's going on, and that's not going to be good. I dated a Teresa and called her Mary. That's what I mean. Anything's possible. Anything is possible. I'm dumb. Dana Dina. No way. Big D. that's all you'd be saying

hey d she is anything but her real name nope d what's up d frank how you doing girl fuck man so this continues for several years after this so wife disappeared kids are heartbroken they never heard from mom again. Okay. Ralph's moving on. What are you going to do? Dana in the house now. 2006.

All right. Uh, this is weird. One of Ralph's nephews, apparently not his kids, but a nephew in 2006 prosecutors file 39 charges against Ralph's mother, June Candelario. Wow, June. Mama June, who's 61 years old. These charges are for locking her, or allegedly locking her grandson in a 46 by 30 by 35 inch tall dog kennel for up to 11 hours at night while she worked as a detention counselor for Jefferson County.

What? She would go do her night shift and lock the 13-year-old grandson in a dog cage while she was gone. You can't do that. That was her babysitter. I'm going to jail you all on my own with this dog kennel. Not even somewhere. Put a fucking outside lock on his bedroom if you're gonna do some weird shit like that i hope there's not a fire but yeah a dog

kennel if he's in a dog kennel hope there's not a fire that kid is never getting out of that but did you did you put like at least a hamster bottle with one of those water things with the ball you have to put yeah at least i hope it was strong yeah there's no fucking room for anything else holy shit man so that's how this went charges include felony second degree kidnapping uh attempt to commit child abuse that seems like more than an attempt that seems a success intent you did it yeah hey good job resulting in serious bodily injury and 37 misdemeanor charges of child abuse. Well, she she told the social workers that according to her, she felt that locking the 13 year old boy in the dog cage was better than her going to work and having him possibly just walk in the streets. Is it better? What could happen on the streets someone could kidnap him and stuff him in a dog cage that's that's about as bad as it gets i think right you're already doing it yeah

i also fingered his asshole just to make sure no one else does it like what the fuck is that what kind of what kind of logic is that at least at least it won't be his first time now and i won't i won't yeah he's i'm tempering him to being in this dog cage shit is weird so he's a five foot four hundred ten pound young boy yeah stuffed into a dog cage he told the cops that he had to pull his knees up to his chest to fit inside of it, and he could only move to roll to his side. That's all he could do to move and roll back and forth. That was it. Because otherwise he was in a fucking dog cage.

That's ridiculous. So Ralph here, it's obviously his mom. It's his son. No, it's his nephew. Oh, his nephew. His nephew. He said that he was perplexed. By the way, three years this was going on, the dog cage.

This wasn't like two times in a dog cage. What? She had been locking him away every night for three years in a dog cage. 13? 13. So starting at 10, come on into the cage. And that just continued. She couldn't have taken the cage with her?

Put it in the back seat? She didn't trust a 13-year-old to be home by themselves? He'd be wandering the streets, Jimmy. It'd be all over for him. Trust him. Maybe he'd just watch TV and eat Froot Loops and go to bed. Probably, yeah. Yeah, maybe he's a good kid.

I don't know. He'll never have the chance to because he's in a fucking dog cage. Right. So he said, Ralph said, quote quote it doesn't make sense to me it's totally out of the range of what i would believe yeah me too that's really weird he said that he's spoken to cops about the boy who's his nephew and he said that the boy quote seems to be doing okay he's used to it he's been in there a long time. He's not crazy, per se. He does climb walls from time to time.

But you talk to him through the little bars, and he's fine, though. He seems okay in there. He doesn't even shake it anymore. Nah, that was years ago. It's been two and a half years since he shook the goddamn thing. So Ralph's doing fine. He's all right. don't worry about him now ralph's love life is really blossoming he's got dana franklin like we talked about but he's also found himself another young lady what named pamela palmer

yeah and she's born in 1966 as well now these they're all Jehovah's Witnesses, by the way. Really? Everybody involved in this story is are Jehovah's Witnesses. Ralph's a Jehovah's Witness, Pam's a Jehovah's Witness, Dina was a Jehovah's Witness, Dana's a Jehovah's Witness, all of them. Yeah. Okay. So, at the time, Pamela Candelario, she,

she's already been married three times, we believe, that her son said, I believe she'd been married three times, her daughter said. Most recently, she'd been married to Jerry Palmer. She has two daughters. So he has two sons. She has two daughters. That's how this is working.

Now, Jerry, the ex-husband here, they talked to him, and he said he first met Pam in about 1993 at a country bar in Colorado Springs where everybody meets. Uh, at that time, Jerry was in the air force and working at Cheyenne mountain. They dated for about a year and then they got married and lived in Colorado Springs and the fountain Colorado area up until 2000 at which time they moved to Pueblo, Colorado and purchased what? Yeah, that's not that's downgrade. That's that's a bad is actually. And he said then they purchased they moved here to purchase what he called, quote, Pam's dream home in Pueblo.

Pueblo. Why is it there? I don't think I would say her home, there's not a location attached to it. She wants this beautiful house and probably a very inexpensive place to build it is Pueblo, probably. Better than Denver, I would assume, for price-wise. I assure you it's a much better location than anywhere between Colorado Springs and Denver. Yeah, for prices, for sure. than anywhere between Colorado Springs and Denver.

Yeah, for prices, for sure. So Jerry, Pam, and their two daughters, Shannon and Kelsey, are told that, or I'm sorry, they're all together until 2010, in which, well, that's when they get divorced officially, but they break up before that.

So Jerry and Pam break up in 2009-ish to get divorced in 2010. Now, while they're married, Jerry said he and Pam would argue from time to time, mostly over guess money. Boom. Yeah, you go mostly over money because we don't have it. And we are in fucking Pueblo,

Colorado and everything is more stressful when the next thought is, how am I going to pay that bill? That's the worst. So Jerry said their arguments were never physical or violent, not any physical abuse toward Pam or anything like that. He said that he was never physically abused by her.

He never hit her. She never hit him. Everybody kept their hands to themselves. That's terrific. That's nice. Jerry said that he didn't drink alcohol, but Pam would drink alcohol. Now, Pam's drinking kind of, it's got a range of what people say about it. He was asked later on how much Pam drank while they were married and what her choice of, you know, what's her poison?

What's she like? Jerry said Pam drank beer or wine. You know, what's her poison? What's she like? Jerry said Pam drank beer or wine. Well. So, you know, she's not drinking. Yeah, right.

She's not pounding scotch out of the bottle anyway, so that's good. That's tolerable, yeah. Yeah, on a daily basis, she'd have one or two drinks at night. Great. That's, yeah, unwind after work. That seems reasonable, right? Yeah. They said how often did Pam drink to intoxication, and he said that she maybe drank to intoxication

maybe once a month on average. Yeah, your third Saturday night of the month she'd have three glasses of wine or four and polish off that whole bottle and giggle at some sitcoms and fall asleep. So not a big deal. He said that Pam used alcohol but he didn't think she had a problem with it.

And when she got intoxicated, it was typically at a gathering with friends from church or something like that. Really? Yeah, they would all have a couple tie it on a little bit, which I did not think was allowed. Drink a little heavier with the friends. Yeah, which is normal. That's a social drinker. That's what I mean. Normal.

That's when. That's a social drinker. That's what I mean. That's I would I'm no expert at this, but I would assume on the scale of healthier, quote unquote, drinking alone at two in the morning is probably less healthy than drinking with your friends. Drink to blackout alone is generally the least healthy. That's the least. But it can be the most rewarding. That's the thing.

It really can be. Sometimes you'll get Amazon packages a few few days later you didn't know you're gonna go on a journey really yeah over the next few days that's for sure yeah people you called that you didn't know you called yeah you're gonna find yeah information you gave people you didn't know you gave that information to it's gonna be fun it's gonna be fun you're gonna have a good time now jerry said that pam was a jehovah's witness you know the whole time as long as he'd known her she'd been a jehovah's witness yeah jerry said he wasn't a member of the jehovah's witnesses and wasn't affiliated with any religious organization or church and was never asked to join the whole

jehovah's witnesses that's That's incredible. Really? He found the way to get them to not knock on your door. You have to be married to one. They think you're already part of the plan. Yeah, you're already on the team, and they don't come to your house. That's the only way. No, I just like the pussy. He figured it out.

You've got to be inside. That's amazing. The calls don't come from inside this house. No, they don't. Absolutely not. It's amazing. The calls don't come from inside this house. No, they don't. Absolutely not. It's amazing. At all those parties, no one said, hey, chair. That's amazing to me.

Chair bear. His house, that's an outgoing line. That's what that is. That's the outbound calls. You get behind the outbound calls and you're in business. They leave to knock on doors and he's like all right ladies have a good one he waves and goes in and watches football that's jerry that's jerry's plan jerry's a genius oh jerry you figured it out chief um so pam though

was a devoted member of the local chapter of jehovah's witnesses and raised their daughters in the church okay so jerry was like i don't care what you do with the kids, whatever you feel like doing, as long as I don't have to do it, I don't care. Interesting. So he's got the Homer Simpson approach to the whole thing. Yeah. As long as I can watch football. I don't give a shit.

Jerry said that all of their friends were members of the church, and even though he wasn't a member, he said he always felt welcomed and was invited to all the social events outside the church so you know they that's all the people they knew and hung out with sure he wasn't one of them and they were all nice to him jerry stated that there were some church-related activities that he was not invited to and he said that he quote had no issues with that i bet not i wouldn't have any you mean i'm not allowed to come to your Jehovah's Witness service tonight? Oh, darn it. Tell you what.

I'll be home waiting on you. Can't you ask to make an exception for me, please? Oh, no. Oh, darn. Well, you guys have fun. Is there anything around the house I can do for you? You guys have a good time. Oh, no.

I know it's Monday and football's on. It's fine. have a good time. Yeah, no, I know it's Monday and football's on. It's fine. So Jerry stated

that their marriage seemed to be strong. Everything was going well up until March or April 2009. That's when things started to kind of go awry

because Jerry started hearing rumors from coworkers of his who were also members of the church, by the way, that Pam was spending a lot of time with a church member. Uh-oh.

A guy church member. Yeah? Yeah, a guy named Ralph Candelario. Oh, Ralph. At the time. He's a member of the church, and the rumors he was hearing, he said one had to do with outings that the older church members would take with the younger members or the kids. You know, I don't know, like mentorship outings or some horse shit.

I don't know. Opportunities for diddlings. I don't know. Some young life shit. I guess so. Yeah. Apparently, the children and teens of the church would go on trips to Denver and other areas of the states with just random church people there. We're going from the country up to the city?

Up to the city to show the kids around. Head on up to Elitch's and get fingered on a roller coaster? I guess that's how it's going to be. We're going to show them what the secular life is like here. Let's get it on. So Jerry was never invited to attend as a chaperone because he wasn't in the church pam would go as a chaperone and so would ralph all the time so they would hang out out out of town here as well as other adult church members sure jerry said some of his co-workers

would comment on how pam and ralph would be seen together on those outings. Yeah. But once the group would arrive at their destination, Pam and Ralph would, quote, go off alone, leaving the children and teens unsupervised. Yeah. Yeah, that's horniness. Makes you go, well, they'll be all right for 15 minutes, right? Okay. That's what that is.

Uh-oh. The comments that his co-workers kind of uh made was saying that in jerry's words that pam and ralph's behavior was essentially quote weird is the way he put it it's not weird it's very standard behavior for people it's very normal yeah for adults that fuck very normal for people of the opposite sex to want to disappear together it happens a lot since you know i don't know since the beginning of time i would assume this started since i've ever heard been a thousands of years we've been doing this yeah so as everything passed here um millions of years i guess i don't know how fucking long people have been here a long time i'm

sure dinosaurs would want to do that too so as the months pass leading up to all of the separation and all this drama here, Jerry said how Shannon, who's their oldest daughter, began dating Aaron Candelario, Ralph's son. Oh, oh, yeah. Yes. So and also a church member. They're all church members. Yes. So and also a church member. They're all church members. Jerry said Pam would chaperone dates that Shannon and Aaron would go on and that Jerry wasn't invited to go to chaperone his daughter. Like, hey, the church aside, that's my daughter. And if someone's going to chaperone, maybe it's going to be me. Maybe he's more afraid of me as the father. That's what I mean. I could put a little bit of at least respect in his back right now, you know, something. So according to Jerry, he, that while one time are here, while Pam was chaperoning those dates,

Ralph Candelario would show up, quote, out of nowhere to co-chaperone the date. Or in other words, make it a double date. Yeah, that's all it was jerry said that he suspected pam was involved in a relationship with ralph but he said he had no proof only rumors that said that and he wasn't allowed around any of the church stuff so he had no way of proving it i'm not invited to see it i'm not yeah that's mighty convenient to you're not allowed to come here where I have hooked up with somebody else. Where I do things that you wouldn't like. Yeah, it's a little bit weird here.

Now, both of her daughters said they were a little bit, you know, kind of a strained relationship with their mom over a lot of this. There's also other reasons. Both daughters describe Pam as, quote, classic bipolar. Oh? Who can be very manipulative and very money-hungry, too, is what both daughters said. Oh. They said they didn't think Pam was ever professionally diagnosed as bipolar or got any treatment

or medication, but that mental illness had run in the family and other members of the family had had this. Sure. She displays characteristics. Kelsey, the one daughter, said that Pam came across as a very nice person. She's got that door knock personality of, hi, have you heard the good word? You have to have, you can't be crazy and, you know, foaming at the mouth and throwing things at people when you're trying to sell them something and you knock on their door. Yeah, you got to be kind of visually kind of visually inspiring yeah yeah at least a smile

you have to do something here so she said she would go to church and act like a perfect christian but when an angry when an angry person uh and not violent person but she's a very angry person she said she would act all happy but she was also super pissed off at things. She said that Pam found the tiny things that would piss her off. Little things. And she also, the kid said she drank a lot, which added to it. When she was drinking, it would be worse. Okay. As many people are.

Pam, though, did not think she had a drinking problem, and apparently neither did her husband. Yeah. But then again, her husband didn't know she's fucking plowing another guy either. So he doesn't know what the hell she's doing. I don't think he knows anything. I don't think he's real. I don't think Jerry's with it here. I just don't.

I don't feel Jerry's real with it. And even if he is, even if he feels like he is, his credibility is fucked when he's not. He doesn't know where anybody is or what anybody's doing. Nope. He doesn't. He knows who's leading the AFC East, though, at any given time. That's it. That's all he knows. Outside of that, he doesn't. He knows who's leading the AFC East, though, at any given time. That's it. That he knows.

Outside of that, he's not sure about a lot. He knows what the Broncos are doing in the AFC West always. Otherwise, he's very clueless. So Pam would act bubbly, what the kid said, when if she was drinking in public, she was like this happy-go-lucky, you know, drinking person. But at home home she'd fight with the family and become a little more violent and it was she was a less happy drunk here uh pam and jerry fought a lot during the relationship we said there was never any physical abuse but i guess both daughters said that they described emotional abuse and it was indicated that jerry

was the calm person during these episodes while pam would be the angry person flying off the handle they also described pam as overbearing being nothing ever good enough for her ever and which i mean a lot of daughters say that about their moms that's just a very common thing and it doesn't mean that they're wrong i'm just saying that's a common thing the daughters indicated here that they remembered growing up and always being afraid of Pam and that also Pam was not affectionate or caring toward them. Yikes. So that's rough here.

They painted kind of a rough picture of their mom as an angry drunk who acts a certain way in public, kind of a hypocrite who seems to care more about trying to get affairs going with church members and all this. They painted a bit of an ugly picture of their mom. Definitely a different picture than the ex-husband. You'd think those would be switched. Yeah, generally. The ex-husband usually has the darker view of the woman

or whatever. Yeah, the ex-husband seems to be thrilled with her. Yeah, she's fine. Apart from the leaving all the time. Yeah, apart from the banging around with Ralph. They seem fine, but the daughters were pretty harsh here. Now, November 22, 2009, this is when Jerry said Pam told him that she was not happy in their marriage and no longer wanted the life they had built

or wanted to be married to him anymore. Done with all of this. Jerry said Pam wanted out she wanted a divorce but she wouldn't leave the house she said i'm not leaving the house this is my dream house yeah you're fucking me yeah um she he said that words were exchanged that evening that's the way jerry put it yeah i wonder what those words were. Wow. Whatever words they were, they made Jerry choose to leave the house. So they had to be some kind of words. And he left the house and never came back and filed for divorce.

He did state that he did not want the relationship to end and did not want to get divorced. But she made it pretty clear that what she wants is this house and the kids. Same to you. Just the only thing that's, hmm. I'm looking around. I'm taking inventory. The furniture I like. I like that.

That's fine. The colors, I don't need to paint the walls or anything. It's mainly you sitting in that room that I don't care for. Yeah. Should I go to another room? I'm going to redecorate this room. I'm going to take you out of it, and it's perfect. I'm going to take you out of it and put you, I'm gonna take you out of it and put it i don't put you i don't know in another home somewhere not near here possibly maybe a two-bedroom apartment

i see you in your future all right leave your ring on the nightstand okay yeah go ahead all right have a good one so yeah however pam wanted the divorce and she could not initiate the divorce due to the rules of the church due to the rules of the church. Oh. In the rules of the church, apparently, the only way a Jehovah's Witness can initiate a divorce is if their spouse is adulterous to them, which Jerry isn't, is physically abusive, which he isn't, or dead. Which he isn't.

So he can fuck around, beat you, or die. Those are the only ways you're getting out of this. Oh, my. That's not a lot. Not just, I'm not fulfilled isn't on that list, really. But those are kind of the three biggies. Those are big. Yeah, yeah.

Those are reasons. But, I mean, you can get a divorce just because you feel like it. I don't want to be with that person anymore. I don't like the noise they make when they chew. That's, I mean, you know, it's a free country. I super hate fucking them. Yeah. It's weird. When I fuck them, I think about wanting know, it's a free country. I super hate fucking them. Yeah, I just, it's weird. When I fuck them, I think about wanting to fuck other people who aren't them.

And I thought, maybe I'll just take the middle person out of this and fuck the people I want to fuck. What about that? Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity.

The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion

that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st.

Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy.

The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast. So, uh... Fuck her. I'd rather fuck an overripe microwaved avocado. seems better it seems better it's more attractive to me it doesn't get drunk and yell at me the avocado that's what i like about it most very few times has it done that so uh if one of those elements doesn't happen though and the members divorce the member initiating the divorce is not viewed well by the elders of the church and are subjected to various sanctions and penalties within the church oh i

don't know what those would be no door knocking for you for six weeks what if i just walk the fuck away i didn't that's i don't know not good so but her status in the church was very important to her. She had worked her way up, and she felt like that was important. So Jerry agreed to file for divorce to prevent Pam from suffering the repercussions from the church. Okay. Even though he's being decent about the whole thing. He filed for divorce and stated the church still censored Pam from the congregation. And Jerry felt, though, it was due to the elder's knowledge that she'd been fucking Ralph.

That's what the whole point was. So during all this, Ralph was still going out with Dana Franklin. And so he just leaves Dana Franklin for Pam. And she's pissed, apparently. Dana or Pam? Dana. Dana. She's pissed off. And she's in apparently Dana or Pam Dan or Dana she's still she's pissed

off and she's in the church too yeah so this is all a big mess this is very messy and reported to the church the fact that Ralph had a simultaneous relationship with her with Dana and Pam to the church elders

and she also slashed all of his tires so she went two routes with it she dang she went to the church elders and said listen you're you know this is a real problem spiritually we have an issue with this and then she went outside and fucking got a guitar and sang a country song with her switchblade this is fucking insane holy shit wrote her name god dashes headlights out too this is what it sounds like so and it makes sense it's in the you know pueblo colorado out there and oh boy yeah yeah that's them yeah that's it so ralph is sanctioned by the church for cheating on his wife oh he got in trouble but uh pam a Jehovah's Witness, stood by him until they're able to work their way back into the church's good graces together.

OK. And they eventually get legally married here. Wow. Yes. Sometime in here, like in the church and everything. Eventually, the church even recognizes their marriage. So, OK, they work their way back in the divorce divorce from with jerry and pam was final in march of 2010 so it was somewhere around then and he said his relationship with pam at that point was tense because of the circumstances surrounding the divorce and that pam's relationship with her daughters was good at the time but then when she married ralph all of a sudden then the daughters were pissed off and she threw everything in the turmoil a bit with the kids it doesn't feel like the the j-dubs got much

uh the the sanctioning and the punishments that they can dole out doesn't feel like they the they at some point they're gonna have to let them back yeah you still let them into the room you're just like you can't talk during services you're not not allowed to be like, you know, an active member of the congregation. You have to sit in the back. Yeah. We'll recognize your marriage now because we're thinning around here. You know what I mean? We are knocking on doors to recruit.

So we're not. We're still doing that. We're not turning a lot of people away is what we're going for here. We don't even know what's on the other side of that door. We'll take whatever's there. Yeah. That's what we're going for. No matter who it is that's it so i guess that jerry said that um

shannon and aaron candelario get engaged and we're planning to marry as well oh yeah that is yes um which is very strange and um i guess pam and ralph get married before shannon and aaron can get married which causes a huge issue between the girls and pam yeah you stole my thunder yeah and you know married you just made my my my fiance my stepbrother also thank you for doing that yeah appreciate that for that for some some trailer park balance there that That's nice. Thank you. I mean, thank you for making my relationship the Pornhub homepage. This is good. Well, you know what? Now we have a title for this thing.

That's the thing. We've been wondering what the title is going to be, and now we know. It's going to be Girl, Fuck Stepbrother. It's going to be a whole category. Oh, boy. brother that's it's gonna be a whole category oh boy they said that uh this issue was such a severe issue between pam and her daughters that they became very strained between them and jerry said especially the relationship between shannon and pam was so strained strained that neither pam nor ralph was invited to shannon and aaron's wedding oh yeah. Oh, yeah. Both of you stay out.

Both of you stay out. Her mom, his dad, neither invited. Wow. This is fucking crazy. Jerry said he had no idea whose idea it was for Pam and Ralph to get married. I don't know. Who knows? The two of them. Ralph runs an antique store.

He owns and runs an antique store. Really? Yeah. For years he's done that. And it's interesting 2012 pam and ralph buy a home in florence oregon for 145 000 they use as a vacation home oh yeah it's just a retreat just a retreat here so uh here is a woman named Carol here, Carol Palmer. She said that the Candelarios bought the house a couple years ago as a vacation home as they lived in Colorado.

When they first purchased the home, Ralph borrowed some of this woman because she lived up there, some of her outdoor furniture so they would have something to sit on. They bought the house, not an empty house. So Carol said she remembered they moved their belongings into the house of the U-Haul truck and their son helped them. She said they would usually show up at night at the home and would leave early in the morning, which was weird. It's a long ride. Yeah. She said they didn't know they would fly in and take a rental car there. Carol didn't know when they were coming and there were no scheduled visits, which you don't have to fucking tell your neighbors when you're going to go to your own house tell you i mean

it might be nice to know when my furniture is going to be busy that yeah well i mean once the furniture's returned once you return our garden furniture i think it's over at that point after that i need to tell you nothing i don't have to check in with you anymore so carol told said that pam would frequently show up at the house and stay alone and they would you know fly in drive with a rental car fly into portland and drive down with a rental car carol said ralph was very friendly but pam was not friendly she said that pam avoided contact but ralph was outgoing um you know they didn't really know carol other than having a neighbor there but this carol said she thought ralph was outgoing um you know they didn't really know carol other than having a neighbor there but this carol said she thought ralph was into car restoration and she heard that

pam worked as a paint chip rep oh yeah carol said that they recently talked about moving to cottage grove or medford and that pam was trying to transfer her paint business to Eugene. And Carol said she would accidentally get Pam's mail because Pam's maiden name is also Palmer. So they'd mix up their mail all the time. So November 2013, Pam visits Jerry, which is strange here. Okay. Pam showed up at Jerry's job unannounced and uninvited one day. Oh, you can't do that. In November of –

Your ex-wife? Yeah. Hey, your wife's here. I don't have a wife. Oh, that one? Fuck. Okay. Somebody's baby's mama is here.

Damn. Pam told Jerry she was remorseful about how the divorce happened and also about her marriage to Ralph and how that's affected the girls and how it affected her relationship with the girls. So she showed up to just kind of hash out some stuff that's over already. And you know where you take that shit to your therapist, not to your ex-husband. General remorse and regret. Take that to whatever God you serve. Whatever you got to do.

Yeah, church person, therapist. You know who you don't take it to? Your ex-fucking husband who's at work, not interested. Don't bring it to my job. Nope. Don't even bring it to my house. Don't bring it anywhere. Don't bring it to me at all.

Don't care what you do. So January 7, 2014, here, Shannon and Pam, daughter and Pam, talk for an hour in a car outside Shannon's job try to have a yeah a little moment here Pam told Shannon she and Ralph had been planning to move to Oregon but that was falling through and that during the conversation Pam got emotional and cried and told Shannon that she did not like living in Walzenburg and that she was very unhappy with her decision to leave Jerry and marry Ralph. She basically said, I fucked up, Shannon.

Whoops-a-daisy. I fucked it all up. I messed your life up. I messed my life up. I messed it all up. You know how your life is fucked up? Mine, too. Super fucked up.

It's weird. You know who caused it all? Me. I did it. I regret it's weird you know who caused it all me i did it but she's but you know what she realized it and she's to be to be adult enough to tell your your adult daughter that look i fucked up and i'm sorry and all that that says a lot i don't know that's you know it says something maybe she's trying to make amends you know what i mean is she looking for the the burying of the hatchet or what whatet? What's the goal of this?

Seems like she just wants to have a relationship with her daughter. Okay. With her oldest daughter. I think that seems to be the plan. And if that's the plan, then yeah, I understand. Good for you, Pam. So January 14th, 2014, David and Carol Roche are neighbors and acquaintances of Pam and Ralph. carol roche our neighbors and acquaintances of pam and ralph uh in the afternoon that day they were at the antique store that ralph and pam own and operate these neighbors during that visit

pam made a comment that she was unhappy about what ralph was doing and then wouldn't say anything more with that oh she was just like i'm unhappy with what he's doing which i don't know not a fan of his behavior. That's terrific. How much is his lamp over here? I like the- What behavior? Is this called Coleside for Sale? Wow, that is nice, I'll tell you.

Is this Civil War era? This is pretty nice over here. So January 15th, 2014, apparently they're supposed to go to Oregon, the two of them, for six weeks. Oh, my. Six-week trip up there, which they're trying to sell their house also six weeks oh my six week trip trip up there which they're trying to sell their house also their house has been on the market up there okay so this day police arrive at the home oh located at the intersection of west third and uh hendron streets in walsenburg it's 7 a.m on january 15th a call to 911 had been made by a neighbor who heard Ralph's cries for help from a sidewalk in front of their house.

Oh, yeah. A woman named Far Far. He true. True. True. True. True. Willow of Walsenburg is the neighbor. And I guess Ralph, she called for help. She saw Ralph call for help and collapse onto the sidewalk. So she called 911. And, you know, he's bleeding from the head on the sidewalk, passed out on his face. So it's like, holy shit. So he would yell to the neighbor to help him and go help Pam and go check on Pam. And then he passes out.

Okay. From God knows what here. So the neighbor said, he's not good. He's crying. he told me to go help her she's in the kitchen i go to get my uh i go i'm going to get my neighbor to help me here um you know and i'm saying ralph are you okay are you okay and then the police arrived and the police went in with to the house with guns drawn and uh they said that when they popped in the front door there in the entrance you could see the kitchen and pam is laying there still in her nightgown with her

head covered in blood oh so yeah um the neighbor said quote i knew she was dead when the ambulance showed up because they didn't go into the house they just stayed and were working on ralph oh the cops found her in there dead and were like don't bother you know no rush on her yeah get to get to him so ralph wasn't shot but he was hurt and bleeding from the head and he was airlifted to the nearest trauma hospital here and um yeah it was you know it's a big deal now walsenberg, the police department, not equipped to handle this kind of investigation. Dead woman in the house. Fucked up, beat up

guy in the sidewalk. Oh, shit. So, yeah, they said you have small town departments, five, six, seven people. You don't have the murder cops on staff. You don't have forensic professionals on staff. You gotta call the county, and in a small county, they have to call in the state. Sure. That's how it works so pam is found dead inside the house like we said she's found

in the kitchen um they thought she'd been shot in the head when they first arrived she's bleeding she's got like a hole in her head and uh later on they will learn that she's not actually shot to death and we'll find out which is interesting um i guess at the time these ralph and pam were not supposed to be home oh they were supposed to be in flying to oregon but their flight was delayed fucking delta see what happens i get sick people get killed this is what fucking happens fucking fucking delayed flights staff your goddamn people correctly and this won't happen god damn it you assholes so they come home i guess uh they returned early early in the morning on the 15th and that's when this happened i guess there's they were supposed to fly out the night before

plane got delayed so they ended up coming home i, to catch a later flight on the next day. And that's what happened. So the neighbors are freaked the fuck out. Ralph, before he went out, the last thing he said is that there was two men in the home and they were there for hours. Oh. And that's what happened. So neighbors are terrified, obviously. There's two vicious people in the

fucking on the loose here according to ralph uh the next door neighbor said she slept with a gun in her fucking under a pillow after the killings so uh ralph is airlifted to parkview medical center and and now they're gonna go from there now pam when they take her to the county medical examiner's office they find out she actually died of blunt force trauma. Like what? A fucking cast iron skillet? Well, they thought it was a bullet hole, but it was actually a fireplace poker. That's the murder weapon.

Oh, dear Lord. Which is a nasty murder weapon. They're fucking nasty. Stabbed or just beaten beaten my god the marking on her head was the exact replica of the shape of the fire poker that like octagon yeah it was just planted in her head and that's why they thought she was shocked because it was so bloody and she had a big imprint so when you just see her um they cataloged everything they found investigated the house there's broken glass in the back door.

They took knobs off the drawers even to send them to the labs hoping that there was a DNA or fingerprints on them as people would try to rifle the house here and go through shit. So at this point, it's definitely a homicide and a home invasion here. So

now Shannon arrives at the hospital. She hears all this and arrives at the hospital looking for her mother she doesn't know her mother's dead she just has heard her mother's been taken to the hospital so an agent of the colorado bureau of investigations there to meet her along with aaron who you know her husband and they said how did she take it and uh the cop said about as well as anybody would take to get hit with a sledgehammer or whatever first you're just kind of shocked and then a little bit of denial yeah so shannon said suddenly i realized that the last conversation i

had with her that was it no fresh start now nothing so she's kind of screwed here um you know she starts sobbing and the and everything like that ralph here uh his face is all fucked up he has bruises in several places he was confused uh they thought figured he was kind of a guy coming out of concussion he was exhausted and um you know that's how it went so they got to investigate this this is a lot of things are going on here so they continue the investigation and the Colorado Bureau of Investigations called in to provide technical crime scene assistance and they take two days processing the house. They want to get everything.

Yeah. Because Ralph said they were there for hours and we'll talk about it. Whoever was in the house? Yes. Yeah. These invaders were there for hours. They said they had to have left some kind of physical evidence. Got to be hours.

Yeah. So a broken window is discovered, but they're not saying whether that was connected to it. The cops won't. The police chief here says, I assure you that our officers are working extremely hard along the CBI, along what side the cbi to bring resolution to this case nonetheless it's critical to maintain the integrity of the investigation as we navigate through the forensic testing process i asked for patience so be patient you know who's not patient neighbors not at all patient catch those fucking people before they murder my whole family is what they're thinking so their next door neighbor said quote i was afraid i didn't even want to go to my paint class

that i do in the evening because i was afraid to be out a lot of people got guns a lot of neighbors told me i went out and got a gun you know i want to protect myself everyone knew the candelarios had a nice house filled with antiques because it's another thing. So also there's a little bit of jewelry that Pam has and stuff like that. But the thing is about antiques is they're not easy to hock. Yeah, that's a tough go. Yeah. You want to get top dollar out of those.

Yeah. Even an expensive antique, you can't take that to a pawn shop. They don't know what the fuck to do with that thing. So it's difficult. So are there any suspects here? they say they cannot find any suspects they um the lead investigator said that he was with ralph the surviving victim and said that you know he's told him all he knew and um they said at no time or were the police did they tell the residents to be extra cautious of any potential threat the police officer here said i have field be extra cautious of any potential threat the police

officer here said i have fielded a number of comments and concerns from citizens about their personal safety following the homicide of pamela candelario well i cannot comment about the specifics i can indicate that we believe this to be an isolated incident why do they always say that we don't know who so there's no panic we don't know who did it We don't know who, so there's no panic. We don't know who did it. We don't know why, but we believe that you're safe, which is it's- You're fine. You'll be okay. Don't worry about it. That is fucking crazy.

So any leads here? Some missing things? They take Ralph through the house and do a videotape tour. They said, all right, we're going to take you through the house, and you point out on this tape anything that's missing as we go through the house so he goes out through the house he said the television's gone okay um they said that so the cops are saying well the candelarias were about to go on vacation so maybe as far as anyone knew they were going to be gone at that time in the middle of the night so maybe these people knew they were going out of town they know them in some way and we're going to break in when they were going out of town, they know them in some way,

and were going to break in when they were gone and then found them there, and then, oh, shit. You know what I mean? What do you do? So they said a citizen's tip leads to a possible lead. They said that this person brought up individual names that he believed were involved in the homicide. So that's something. These are Ramon Bear Rose and Jose Nino.

He brings up this tip. They're known drug users and both have, you know, long criminal records, histories of breaking and entering and assault. Bad, bad things. Yeah. Yeah. They would be in the group of people you'd be looking at. I guess the day after the murders, they were caught trying to sell stolen jewelry oh that's not great yeah so they checked into them um yeah so that's what happened pam's daughter

shannon found herself being mad at ralph for not preventing what happened for not you know protecting the situation that's a tough that's a tough anger, right? That's hard. Well, she said, quote, I was angry at him. In my mind, I was like, why didn't you protect my mother? That's your role as her husband. But if there's criminals coming in, home invading, it's kind of, you know, you can't really blame him for that.

I mean, so it's a little bit difficult, obviously, what's going on here. So a few weeks after the murder here, another thing that happens is Ralph says that not only was he beaten, but he didn't want to say it first, but he was also sexually assaulted in the bathroom. Oh, no. He said he was while he was being held captive, he was asked to go. He asked to go to the restroom, and that's when he was sexually assaulted. And he said that he didn't say it earlier because he was embarrassed, and it was difficult for him to talk about. He's a religious guy and shit like that. Maybe that's how it goes, and that's what the cops think. So Ralph tells everything that he can remember to the police.

He writes it out in this long real long thing and then in addition to that he also takes his hand-typed story that he wrote for the police and drops it off at the huarifano news or world journal the newspaper the huarifano yes to answer questions he said everybody's asking him questions. So, you know, he's, he's going to tell. Okay. And he says,

quote, to whom it may concern the following account. I am recording to the best of my memory during the week following the death of my beloved wife, Pam. It is what I can remember. I must start on Tuesday evening because I had to go back and piece together the day's events one bit at a time as I could. I wish I had more time to recover, but time and circumstance won't allow that. All right.

Tuesday evening, Pam and I had dinner at about 630. She made chicken and rice, and we had half glass of red wine each with dinner red wine with chicken come on guys it's a bad day unless that's uh parmesan even then it's sauce yeah that's a tough go yeah you can do it you can pull it off i'll drink that but it's still i don't think pam's making chicken parm out here in Walsenburg, probably. No, it's fried. It's fried. It's fried. Yeah.

Or baked. Then we sat down to watch some TV. Some Frasier, some Star Trek Voyager, and White Collar. Wow. Catching some Frasier syndicated reruns. Yeah. Star Trek Voyager, and I don't know what White Collar is. Do you know what that is?

I got a feeling it's going to be something that back then was new, like Call Me Earl. Like suits or something. I was going to say, it sounds like a one-hour, like, you know, one of those drama. Yeah. Yeah. Pam took her bath at 9 p.m., and I took mine at 9.30. We were both in bed by 10.30 approximately. Okay.

We were both in bed by 10.30 approximately. Okay. The morning of January 15, 2014, at about 2.30, I got up to go to the bathroom, went out of the bedroom into the hallway upstairs, and noticed a downstairs light was not on. So I went down to check why. I would assume a bulb blew out. Bulb burned out. Somebody flipped it off. Something, accident.

Yeah. Nope. It's got to investigate. Yeah. I heard something downstairs as I got to the bottom of the railing. I turned and someone hit me in the back. Oh. Okay. I tripped forward and went toward the front door when someone else hit me in the head from the side room.

I got a glimpse of this person, a tall, dark man with yellow glasses, short, curly hair, wide nose, large lips and marks on the sides of his face. I could not see his eyes or ears. So it's Dennis Rodman he just described. Yeah, I believe. Right. Is that who you just described to me yellow glasses short curly hair wide nose large lips marks on the side of his face tattoos anything red or green up top anything Madonna on his breath anything like that Carmen Electra any any supermodel that any man would fuck blowing him. Anybody. And is that on the agenda here?

A moment later, I was lying on the floor unconscious. I don't know how long I was there on the floor, but I started to hear noises. Noises upstairs. Noises in the kitchen. No lights anywhere on. I knew something was wrong. My head hurt. I was dizzy.

I could not see clearly, but I tried to get up a couple of times and finally stumbled toward the kitchen. Okay, so there's stuff going on, noises and things and no lights, and he's coming from an unconscious state and stumbling just toward the kitchen because he knows where that is. I turned the light on by the kitchen sink and found Pam lying on the floor by the cupboard. She is alive. She is badly hurt. There is blood all over her face and all over the floor. I yelled at her, but she did not respond at all. Do you notice one thing that she's done here is he's going back and forth with tenses?

Yeah. She is. She was. and forth with tenses yeah she is she was she is like she he's telling you like he's been hypnotized and telling you where i'm walking through this now and then she'll say then he says she was like it's a past tense thing that already happened which that's kind of a weird thing that he's doing there so she's alive badly hurt there's blood all over her face and all over the floor i yelled at her but she did not respond to, to it at all.

She was breathing hard and blood was coming out of her nose and mouth. I tried to clear her mouth, but she was bleeding and it wouldn't stop. She started to convulse and I held her hand for a couple of minutes. Uh, and then she just went quiet. I yelled at her again and just started crying. She did not respond and was no longer breathing.

I just collapsed down to the floor by the sink. Okay. A moment later, the two guys ran downstairs and told me to shut up. Yeah. The taller man took me to the front hall and told me to get down and shut up. When I lay down on the floor, I was crying, and he kicked me in the side and told me to get down and shut up when i lay down on the floor i was crying and he kicked me in the side and told me to shut up okay they were speaking spanish but the tall one did speak to me in thick in thick english okay like a thick accent i guess and so it's just a he

got a real like a birmingham england accent like a real heavy one like ozzy started sounding like thick english yeah and only gov a lot yeah a lot like all the time and told me not to move or make any noise and he took all my beer out of the refrigerator which i didn't care for they turned the kitchen lights out they both had some kind of led lights on the sides of their gloves. What? I don't know. Lights on their gloves? I've never seen that. That's why they don't need lights.

I've never heard of that. That's awesome. Yeah, just built-in headlights, built-in flashlights. That's kind of cool. He said something was wrong with him. The tall guy was talking on a phone in Spanish. I don't know what phone he was using. I could only determine that he was very angry. Something was wrong with the car. I could not know what phone he was using. I could only determine that he was very angry.

All right. Something was wrong with the car. I could not tell what. He told the shorter guy they would have to wait a while, and he told me not to move. All right. This is all fair enough. Wait a while. Don't move.

Okay. Some time went by. Don't know how much. He came back and asked me if I had any more money. I told him I had a couple of stashes upstairs in the garage. He told me to go get them. He followed me to the kitchen where I put on my tennis shoes to go out to the garage. Hold on.

I got to put my shoes on. Okay. If you were killing people and bashing people, would you let them put their shoes on first? You'd be like, you're going in the garage barefoot. Yeah, give a fuck how comfortable your feet are. Let's go. Oh, no, let him put his shoes on. There could be pebbles in there.

We don't want him to. Don't want him to step on a, right in the heel? That hurts so bad. It hurts so, I mean, yes, we bashed his skull in with the butt of our guns, but that's, you know, a heel in the pebble. That hurts. That's different. Wow. I put on my tennis shoes to go out to the garage.

He took out a small handgun and told me he would be watching. I went out the back door, and the rear door glass was broken. Some pieces fell when I opened the door. I continued to the garage where I tried to lift myself up into the loft. He just said that they let him go outside. They just stood by the door with a gun and said, I'll be watching. And let him go outside through the yard and into the garage by himself. I'm going to stand right here with you.

Where he could obviously have weapons or he could have a machine gun in there. A car, a fucking, an acme wiley coyote bomb anything could be in there a rocket that he's gonna ride out of here wow but that's what they're looking they're gonna let him do it so i had an old shotgun in the loft with a couple of shells but i couldn't pull myself up so i grabbed the 200 i had under the candle and i went back out wouldn't you try harder i'd get up there if I had to. Gee, my wife's in there. She's dying on the floor. These guys are probably going to kill me.

They're robbing me. I'm getting up in this fucking loft no matter what. I'll find something to stand on. I'm getting up there. But I'm not in that situation so maybe I'm being too picky. When I turned around I saw Farhi, that's the neighbor that found him, saw her husband in the back of his yard.

I always wave at him, but the tall guy was standing by the bathroom window with his gun looking at me. So I just looked straight forward and didn't wave. I didn't even look over. I thought maybe he might even think that was strange and come check on us. Nobody ever came. Oh, my God. So the neighbor saw him outside. When I went in, more glass fell.

I was sure someone would hear. I think it was about 5 o'clock now because there was some traffic starting to move around. Once I was inside, I told them it was cold and I needed to keep fire going. So I went back out to get a couple pieces of wood for the stove. He's in and out so much. They're just like yeah

he'll be back and that's all right hey you know what stop it stop at 7-eleven for me i'm low on cigarettes while you're out there if you could find a stuckies that pecan roll so good shit but i could not see fairy's husband so i brought the wood in uh okay so went out looked for the friend's husband couldn't see so he just came back in with the wood. Yeah, so we're going to roast marshmallows now, that's all. We'll make s'mores. But when I picked up the poker to stir up the fire, I saw blood on the end of it, and I put it down and told them I would just turn the electric on. What?

Hold on a second. Okay, I assume they're burning the fire because the electric heat's probably expensive. Yeah. So even in this situation, he was being cheap up until now? Evidently. Wow, okay. So that's interesting. But when I picked up the poker, okay, there we go.

Just turn the electric on. I turned the heater on in the TV room, but the tall guy would not let me stay. He took me to the hallway and told me to lay down and stay. I just broke down. I was crying and I was cold and I was freaked out. Pam was there with me just a few feet away. I grabbed a small pillow off a bench and a small blue knit blanket to cover myself and I just cried. I either passed out or fell asleep exhausted and cold.

Okay, that's what he says. That's it? No, no, no. Oh, no. That was just that night. There's a whole other day coming up here. Oh, boy. The next bit of memory comes at about 11 o'clock on Wednesday morning.

Guys are still there. Wow. They're moving in. The one guy brought his kid over. Well, we're going to steal this place from you it's gonna be the long game though we're squatting i was gonna say what we did is we set your we took your one bedroom and it's now my daughter's door of the explorer room so that's all set up in there we got that done we're squatting and uh we're gonna do this uh the hard way and my wife

is making homemade tortillas tonight so good news news. Good news there, right? Yeah. Wow. So 11 o'clock Wednesday morning, the tall guy was walking around angrily on his phone talking about telling one to andele and then cursing puta you puta. So we all know what that is. More, but I don't know much Spanish. Those are the Spanish words I know. So that's all he heard him say luckily the guy used the only two spanish words that he knows that's helpful very helpful shit he got from a cartoon shit that he learned from speedy gonzalez and shit that he learned from a cypress hill song and that's all he knows he could have he could

have just said the English words, and it's done. That would have been easier. They were in the TV room, and I asked if I could go to the bathroom. He followed me upstairs to the bathroom. I went to the bathroom, then washed my hands and face.

This is when they assaulted him sexually later, he'll say. I saw my face was absolutely swollen above my left eye, and I had a cut only nose or cut on my nose. I went across the hall to the sitting room and got my slippers, took off my tennis shoes. What are you, fucking Mr. Rogers now?

It's real comfortable. Put your cardigan on and get some graham crackers and shit, and went down the hallway. I turned to go into the bedroom, but he told me no, and he said down. I was trying to get my phone, but it was on my bed stand. He told me to lay down and be quiet. Okay. Lots of laying down and be quiet.

Lots of lay down and be quiet. Okay. But then if he needs to go outside, that's okay, too. Do what you want. Dick around in the garage. He's got some errands to run. That's no problem. He's got to errands to run. That's no problem. He's got to pay the water bill.

He's got a lot of things going on. Around one o'clock, some glass fell out of the back door. The guys ran into the fireplace room and closed the door. I thought someone might be checking on the house, but it turned out to be the wind. Still nobody. Why did no one ever come by? I still don't understand. Who knows?

Why did no one ever come by? I still don't understand. Who knows? In the afternoon, he called someone again and started cursing again. You puta and other things. Same thing. So he's just a broken record here. On repeat.

On repeat. About four o'clock, things took a turn for the worst. Jesus, has it been better? Now? When was it good? This has been bad the whole time the tall guy was still angry and thought he would come over and kick me what a weird way to put that you just say the tall guy kicked me like who would say he thought he came yeah like i could see i made him angry so he kicked me but But he was still angry and thought he would come over and kick.

Like it's just a really strange way to put that. So he built sentence. Weird. I was just resting on the floor. And this is he typed this out. So this isn't like just, you know, they just pulled him in. He just regained consciousness. And then they were writing it down as he was free flow.

And that would be a different story. This is a dude that created this. Yeah. He sat down with sheets of paper and crossed stuff out and rewrote it. Like, wow. I was just resting on the floor. Then he pointed his gun at me and fired. Yeah.

It just clicked. I can't fully say what happened to me at that point. This continued for almost an hour. I lost all control of myself i shit in my pajamas okay i peed in them also all over myself and they just laughed well i mean he just went to the bathroom didn't he yeah but he literally scared you to evacuate yeah yeah he scared the evacuation out of you. That's scared. For a psycho or somebody that does bad things like this, that's funny.

That's what he said. They just laughed at me. Great joke. He said, I was laying there in my own shit and they were laughing. I just broke down altogether. I passed out at some point because when I woke up, it was dark outside. Jesus. And the shit was stuck to you by then.

Only the light from the street was coming in. I thought how nice it looked and how it was quiet. But I realized I was freezing. I couldn't stop shaking. I got up and went into the TV room and lay down in front of the heater, just crying and shaking. I smelled terrible. He smelled himself goes goes without saying jesus i lay there for a while then i decided i would try to go upstairs and clean myself up

but the tall guy came in from behind the fireplace room and told me to shut up and lay down on the floor okay okay again with the lay down and shut up up. He told me, do you want to die? I said, no. He said, shut up, and I mean forever, or I'll come back and finish you. I just said, okay, and laid back down on the floor. I couldn't help myself. I just peed all over myself again. It was more than I could deal with.

I passed out again this guy gets emotionally upset pees and passes out that's his i'm impressed that he can uh satisfy a woman that's what i mean just pees and falls asleep everywhere it's pretty it's pretty interesting he said i don't the passing out is what i don't understand he just like, and he just passes out. Yeah, he's like a fainting goat. Yeah, he hasn't been repeatedly bashed over the head. No, he's like a Victorian woman. Like he puts his wrist to his forehead and he goes, oh. I get that this is harrowing, but I don't know about passing out.

I saw Die Hard is what I'm getting at. I never saw Bruce Willis have a little faint and a little pee and a faint. And then. saw die hard is what i'm getting at i never saw bruce willis have a little faint and a little p and a faint and then wait till he gets to the to the sexual assault for christ's sake that's what i well he's already been sexual oh he is okay yeah yeah that's what's happening yeah he's losing all control of everything losing control when i awoke the sun was coming up and light was in the house i thought my nightmare was over but i looked down the hall and I could see Pam's legs in the kitchen. I couldn't. You know, he didn't mention Pam for a long time.

Yeah, she's been missing. Been just missing out of action here. I couldn't hear anything in the fireplace. Doors were closed. I mean, when I couldn't hear anything, I mean, there was absolutely no sound, No voices, no traffic, no dogs, nothing. I was so cold and dizzy, but I got myself up and went over to Pam and I just lost everything.

I yelled, I pissed my pajamas again. And I just... A lot of pissing. This guy is... I haven't heard of him drinking anything. No! But he's just got so much piss, just really at the tip, right at the top, ready to go.

It's everywhere. My goodness, Jesus. And I just went for the front door. I didn't think. I just went. Maybe I could get help if it was near. So he's just stumbling out. I stumbled down the front steps and saw Farhi to my right.

I yelled to her for help. I was walking. I made it to the second set of steps and went down. But when I turned to go to her, I lost my balance and fell on the sidewalk and hit the right side of my head. I asked her for help for me and Pam to check on her, and I remember her calling 911. Then I lost focus. I was so cold on the concrete, but I was already freezing. Plus, he's got a lot of pee in his pajamas.

When the paramedics arrived, I remember them talking to me, but I don't remember what. I vaguely remember them cutting my clothes off. I was shaking, and I couldn't stop. The next thing I remember was the hospital. They were trying to warm me up and get an IV into me and they were trying to clean me up. The next thing I remember was riding in a helicopter. Wow. It just hurt my head worse. It vibrated all the way and just made me sick. When they got me to Parkview, they gave me a warm

IV and blankets and put some morphine for the pain, and I started to feel better. Well, yeah, it'll make you feel, yeah. Sometime in the ER, a gentleman came over to take pictures of my injuries to my head, ribs, arms, and face, and also my pajama pants because they're the most injured party of anything that I have. There's shit and piss all over. All over. I can't remember my name. Also, Greg Sudar from CBI came to talk to me and to ask me what happened.

I tried to tell him as much as I could. Also, Greg Sudar from CBI came to talk to me to ask me what happened. I tried to tell him as much as I could, but by that time, I was still in shock and all I could really remember was getting hit in the head. I could really not remember what all had happened the last day. I thought everything had happened that morning. That's what I believed. After some more x-rays

and a CT scan, the doctor said I had a concussion, and I was stable, and I could go home. Okay, my son Aaron came to pick me up, but Greg and Kirk said they would give me a ride to CBI and then I could go. So I said, okay, little did not know what trauma was in that little. Did I know what trauma was to unfold next and how badly I was to be treated for the next 11 hours. I was mistreated, bullied, intimidated, tortured, and coerced for the next 11 hours. Yes, I repeat, 11 hours. About what? Well, he's going to explain. Kurt took me to the CBI office in Pueblo around one o'clock and said they needed to ask me a few questions about what had happened. I said, okay. When I got there, they said they needed to take my fingerprints.

I didn't understand, but said, OK, will you? Any OK. Any common sense would go well. They're probably going to need to eliminate mine and Pam's fingerprints from the other people. So that would make a lot of shit from the killers here. Yeah. So I said, OK. They asked me questions for about 40 minutes, minutes, I guess, while they waited for something for the for the fingerprints. I asked if I could get a drink or something and something to eat and if I could get my prescription. They gave me a drink but said no to everything else. And then I asked Greg if I could get at least some Tylenol. And he said he couldn't do that. Greg if I could get at least some Tylenol, and he said he couldn't do that.

Finally, they took my fingerprints and then asked me more questions, then let me sit on a couch, and I fell asleep for a while. They woke me up later, and I was cold and asked for a blanket and some clothes, and they said no. They took me to a small cold room, sat me down on a cold vinyl chair. This is an interrogation room. It's an interview room. And proceeded to grill me about what happened, as they would with anybody who was witness to a murder.

At first they were pleasant and just asked what I could remember. After a while they became rude and threatening. Damn homicide detectives. The first thing they teach them, before they teach them anything about finding killers or they teach them to be damn polite.

And they're just blowing it. Manners are very important to murder cops. It's always everything. Yeah. Always offer like an Oreo or something first. Maybe a Chips Ahoy. Just to make them feel comfortable. Yeah.

Yeah. Juice box, maybe something good. So he said, I was traumatized. I was still dizzy. I was tired. I was traumatized. I was cold. I didn't have any clothes. I was traumatized. I was still dizzy. I was tired. I was traumatized. I was cold. I didn't have any clothes.

I was also hungry. But I tried to answer the questions, and I told Pat and Kurt all that I could remember about last night, that I went downstairs to check the light in the stove, and when I got to the bottom, I got hit from behind in the head and got hit above my right eye and was knocked out in the hallway by the front door. I could not remember anything until when I woke up in the morning and found Pam on the kitchen floor. I told them I went over to check on her and she was cold and not breathing and did not respond, and that I just peed my pajamas and ran out the front door and yelled to the neighbor to please help me and check on Pam. I said I did remember the evening before when we had dinner and watched TV and took out baths and went to bed around 1030.

They seemed angry with me that I couldn't remember more, but what was I to do? I had just lost my wife. I was injured. I was hungry. I was cold, and I was not allowed my medical treatment. How could anyone think under those circumstances? I ask you, how? What I told them was accurate from my memory. I was just missing a whole day and couldn't figure out why. That's all. Sure. Super normal. That's a problem for crime scene investigators.

I even asked Greg why I would have dried feces on me. Yeah. If it had all occurred that morning. Yeah. He said he didn't know. Why I smelled so bad like I hadn't showered in days. I wanted that morning. Yeah. He said he didn't know why I smelled so bad. Like I hadn't showered in days. I wanted to know.

Yeah. Okay. Cause he missed a day. Well, about six o'clock, Pat and Kirk finally gave me a, got me a hamburger and a drink, which I thanked them for an eight,

not even realizing myself that I had not eaten since Pam's dinner on Tuesday night. Then they told me someone else had come to talk to me from Denver and that would be a couple hours. So I leaned on my cold vinyl chair, propped my head up and fell asleep. Exhausted, hurt and cold, without medication, without clothes, in paper clothes, no shoes, no underwear. All I could do is sleep. I was going to say, is he going to pee himself again? Yeah.

All I could do is pee myself. Don't fall asleep, dude. Paper underwear are not going to be very absorbent. Not at all. The gentleman from Denver turned out to be a polygraph guy who explained he needed to give me a test and explain how to do it and asked if that was okay. I said, yes, okay. This took about 45 minutes and he said he needed to grade the test and come back in a while he didn't explain that i knew more about the evening than i was saying which in retrospect is true but i could remember what i could remember okay so he's saying there must be some memory in there that you know he knows it's in there uh but then it got worse more so than you can imagine more p um now at

about 10 30 p.m on thursday pat Thursday, Pat and Kurt came back loaded for bear. They came out and said, I knew more than I was telling, and they pieced together a story for me. Then they decided to bash Pam, riffing her, saying she was an alcoholic and a drunk and that she and I had been drinking heavily and we got an argument and things got out of hand. Well, it gets worse. Oh, he says. After about an hour of this, I told them I was not involved in the hurt Pam suffered and that we were happy and we were not arguing and that we were getting on getting to go on our long planned vacation to our home in Oregon.

Then they changed tactics by telling me if it was okay if I agreed to self-defense. First, they tried to scare him. They go, this is a guy who pissed his pants eight times in a day, so we can scare him into a confession. That didn't work. Then they go, hey, this is the, I hit my kids all the time. It's not your fault the little bastard fell down and hit his head. Maybe it went too far.

You don't know. Maybe it went too far. But she hit you first, maybe. That's that thing. She said, if I agreed to self-defense, he says, I was shocked, even insulted. They said, well, we know how it goes. She was drinking. You were drinking.

She hit you. You hit her back. And this is where we are. It's OK. She hit you back. We get it. Yeah. She hit you.

You hit her back. We understand. See what I mean? You pissed all over yourself. We get it. You pissed. She, she hit you. You hit her back. We understand. See what I mean? All over yourself. We get it. You pissed. She was mad at you for getting shit everywhere again. We understand.

He said, quote, it's not okay. I maintained I had nothing to do with Pam's injuries and I didn't. And I would not plead to some story that Pat and Kurt came up with. It was almost 1215 in the morning when they said I could go. I was so tired. I could not even think,

but Kurt gave me one last message. He said, we'll work this out, but not in your favor. Okay. Well, then. I can't even imagine what I had to endure that Thursday. I can't even imagine. You just described it. You know what you...

Yeah. I can't imagine the thing that just happened to me. That's weird to say. I can't even fathom exactly what I can fathom. Yeah, it does not even register to me. I am numb with fear, with hurt, with disgust, with loss. And on top of all of that, I'm trying to recover from my own injuries, both physical and emotional. Not to mention my pajama bottoms are irreparably destroyed.

I can't even. They're done. One of their comments in the conversation was that I was not acting normal, quote unquote. I ask you, would anybody who had been through what I had been through those two days be normal? No, and I probably never will. I pissed everywhere. Do you know how much piss was there? I was too tired and too hurt to be angry at the time, but I've had lots of time to think about what's happened to Pam and me.

I am angry. Well, I guess you are. At the two people who needlessly took my sweetie from me and in the process destroyed my entire life. That I have to stay behind and live now. I am angry at myself for not finding a way to do more or just getting myself killed too. And I'm angry at how badly the law enforcement of our community has treated my situation and the life I enjoyed with Pam. You have no idea who she was, all the good she brought to my life, but all the people around me do and they loved her like I do and they are the ones who helped me to endure this injustice and the pain I feel every day.

Every day. Every day. I had no choice but to face the sadness of my reality last week by planning the services for my wife and taking care of all the other things one must do in such a sad way. Yeah. I didn't even get a chance to mourn properly

and I'm also upset that no attention has been given to the people who did this horrible thing to pam and me good god where are they find the spanish-speaking guys just yell puta they'll answer i love how you say it it's so good well that's how he would yeah you know colorado guys say it exactly like that exactly that's why i'm saying because that's how a would yeah you know colorado guys say it exactly like that exactly that's why i'm saying because that's how arizona guys say too an arizona guy named ralph is saying it exactly like that that's how i've heard them say yeah puta yeah no fucking spin on it at all so yeah he's doing that um a sad way. Didn't get a chance to mourn properly.

I have given all the information to the CBI and to Kurt, including the description of the person I remember. Okay, that's good. And a list of the items they took from our home. I just wanted anyone who had any questions to know what I am going through and that I can't recount this every time for everybody. This is his one. I'm going to throw this out there for everyone. I'm not doing this again, guys. No, one more.

That's all I got. I can say it once. Yeah. Jimmy one time is what he is. One take Charlie right here. Said it once. What's that? And he says nothing.

It's too much for me. So please be patient with me. look out for yourselves and your neighbors and please accept my heartfelt thanks for all your prayers cards flowers hugs and love and pajama bottoms yeah on behalf of myself and my beautiful wife thank you all sincerely ralph candelario yeah the walmart is sold out of of pajama bottoms in his size. It is at least three peas in his pants. That's a lot of peas. So January 16, 2014 is the next day.

Pam's daughters and Ralph's sons are all interviewed as well. So this is when they find them here at about 6.05 p.m. Agent Mark Hodges and another agent interviewed Shannon and Kelsey. Yeah. Two daughters at their residence located in Pueblo. Candelario and Palmer, those are these two here, were identified as daughters of Pam who were found dead, obviously. Joel and Aaron, the Ralph sons, were also, and also Shannon's ex-husband. They're divorced by now.

Yeah. So Aaron Candelario didn't really like Pam, but he said he didn't really care either way. And he just kind of avoided her is what Aaron said. Joel said he did not like Pam at all. And they had clashing personalities. So both sons don't like her. That's not good. Joel told Kelsey and Shannon that Pam and Ralph fought a lot and there were threats of divorce and leaving the relationship.

The girls thought Pam was the one making the threats of leaving and divorce. Neither Kelsey or Shannon ever lived with Pam and Ralph, so they didn't see what goes on at night between the two of them. Shannon last saw her mother about a week and a half ago when they sat in the car for about an hour, and Shannon had not heard from her mother by phone or text since. Pam and Ralph were planning to move to Oregon, according to them, which Shannon thought maybe fell through because, like we said, financial problems possibly,

but she knew that her mother did not want to live in Walsenburg and that she was upset she divorced jerry and married ralph so kelsey had not seen her talk to her mom in approximately two months oh about one month ago pam went to jerry palmer's work that came up then about you know the daughters indicated that pam got emotional and told j Jerry she was sorry and wish she never left him. That's unannounced. That shit there. Yeah. So Shannon and Kelsey did not know of any enemies or threats toward Pam.

Although when Pam first moved to Walsenburg, she had her gas tank siphoned and her tire slashed. I think I could have a pretty good idea who did that. Do we know where Dana Franklin was that day? Just allegedly. I don't know. Just a thought. A thought. Not saying she did it. She's good for it. We Just allegedly. I don't know. Just a thought. A thought. Not saying she did it.

She's good for it. We know that. She did it once, yeah. The daughters did not know of any infidelity issues within the marriage, but claimed that Pam had a history of it. Our mom fucked around from time to time here. And as she has been married at this time four times. She said this is her fourth marriage, and she's pretty much all of them have ended by some sort of infidelity here.

They said Shannon and Kelsey did not know about how they said, are your parents real safety conscious, Ralph and Pam? Do they lock all the doors, bolt all the windows? Are they that kind of people? And they said, we have no fucking idea.

We don't live there. Pam said, she said her mother wasn't overly safety conscious about locking doors when the daughters had lived with her previously so don't know if she's changed since then kelsey said that she did not think the side door was very secure at their house in walsenburg one time she visited the house and pam and kelsey went in through the side door which had one lock being used that wasn't very good. They said on one occasion in 2010 or 11, Pam even broke into the house herself when she wanted in for something prior to her and Ralph getting married.

She didn't have the key yet, but she wanted to get something and went through that door. So when asked what the girls thought happened to Pam, Shannon thought that Ralph or Aaron told her that two guys broke into the house and Shannon was told Ralph heard something and Pam got hit in the head with something. And at the hospital, Ralph was crying and sobbing and kept repeating that he didn't know what to do. Shannon got angry as it seemed like a stupid thing to say. You don't know what to do.

Kelsey did not think Pam was involved in something that would have gotten her hurt. Whatever happened, she thought was probably in something that would have gotten her hurt. Whatever happened, she thought, was probably because of Ralph. Ralph probably pissed somebody off. The girls questioned why anyone would want to break into their house. They didn't have much valuables in the house other than antiques, which, again, you can't take to Johnny the pawnbroker and hand in. So they don't know what the fuck they're looking at. Pam wasn't a flashy dresser.

She didn't wear flashy diamonds all the time or anything like that she had some jewels but it was more of a native american type of jewelry and turquoise southwesty shit yeah the southwest silver and turquoise shannon and kelsey thought pam may have been back in contact with her sisters who are identified as tina taber from albuquerque and karen calloway from hobbs new mexico and shannon and kelsey did not have a way to contact their aunts though so shannon and kelsey didn't know who else pam uh who didn't know pam as they you know they said they didn't know any of her close associates they just basically said check the church i mean that's who she hangs out with um and she said though though, that Pam used to have good friends in Pueblo. But when she got divorced, she lost all those friends because they were church friends in Pueblo.

I am stumped. They had to start all over. So the investigation continues. Yeah. A copy of Candelario's Ralph's original statement's been forwarded from the police to the behavioral sciences unit at the FBI. Oh. And they remain in contact with Ralph, checking on his well-being and discussing the crime. They bring up his sexual assault.

Oh. And they said that he was sexually assaulted by the intruders, and the police confirmed to everybody that this information had not been reported to them until two weeks after the incident. Oh. And that's when he said, quote, he grabbed me with the other hand on my hip right here. Then he proceeded to assault me. So that was the whole awful story is what he said.

So he said he grabbed him there. Now, immediately the police, one of the things they want to look for is any similar crimes in this area because. Yeah, that'd be helpful. This doesn't seem like something that you do once and never do again like this is yeah you rarely beat a woman to death uh rape a man rape a man who's got poop in his pants right that's a very very sick individual that's willing to do that dangerous people here yeah so police chief to McLallan researched other home invasion crimes reported in recent years in Colorado and the surrounding states, even looking for any similarities, the being there for two days or anything like that.

He said he found none that involves stranger perpetrators who've stayed in a victim's home for an extended period. Not one. None. Not one. Cause it's rare. Yeah. You're in a... Who's to say if they don't have the known of a party planned for tonight and a bunch

of fucking people are going to come over. You have no idea if half their family is going to show up at the door at five o'clock with cakes and balloons or something. You have no clue. Get the fuck out of there. Yeah. You don't know if a bunch of workers are coming over to fix the furnace. You have no clue what's happening.

So you get in and you get out. So they said none of that. In many reported cases, drug dealers are the targets of home invasions by either rival drug dealers or people who want to rob drug dealers. Omar robs drug dealers as Omar said.

None of those seem to be related to this though. They're Jehovah's Witnesses that don't do drugs really. Pam has two glasses of wine and she's tipsy so this isn't what we're looking at here um on monday april 14th this is three months after the murder yeah walsenberg and state investigators along with prosecutors are reviewing their meeting to review all the evidence and try to figure out if they have any suspects. Okay. Now, Pam's ex-husband, Jerry, they bring him into this because they're like, she's got an ex-husband and she showed up at his job a while back.

So Jerry described his relationship with Pam as tense, stating he had only spoken with her and seen her maybe four times since they had broken up. Jerry further reported the relationship between Pam and their daughters was also tense. Maybe the daughters did it. Maybe they disguised themselves and spoke Spanish. I learned the word puta. Puta. Very convincing now. I was trying to say it like Casey Kasem.

Puta. There's a puta on the loose um so she said uh he said that um once last time he physically spoke to or saw pam uh jerry said he spoke with pam on november of 2013 when she popped up at his job yeah uh jerry said pam asked how the girls were doing and commented on how she wanted to re-establish and have a better relationship with the girls, which then she followed that up with having a conversation. So it seemed like she was very interested in doing that. Jerry said Pam never mentioned her relationship with Ralph or mentioned any issues or problems she was having with Ralph. Jerry said it appeared to him that Pam had remorse as to how the divorce and her marriage to Ralph had affected her relationship with their daughters.

The police officer said at this point in the interview, I asked Jerry if Pam had ever contacted him about reconciliation. Jerry said that Pam never contacted him personally while married or divorced to discuss reconciling their situation. Yeah. However, Jerry said during a conversation he had with Shannon, Pam commented on how she made a mistake divorcing Jerry and that she should have never left Jerry. As the interview came to an end, the police officer asked Jerry if he knew of any friends or friends, any friend or friends of Pam who maybe she would have confided in. Yeah. Somebody that, you know, she's talking to that you wouldn't know about that he would or she would. According to Jerry, all of Pam's old friends seemed to have disassociated themselves from her due to the divorce.

Jerry said Pam's friends, while they were married, were largely, if not all, members of the church. And once he and Pam divorced and the truth about what caused the divorce was revealed, Pam was essentially censored from the church and no longer permitted to be considered, quote, in good standing. Okay. I bet a few bucks in the jar could fucking fix that. Fix everything, yeah.

Jerry heard Pam and Ralph Candelario began attending church in Trinidad, Colorado. We did an episode there. Yikes. And eventually, oh yeah, and eventually regained the acceptance of their church. Before concluding the interview, Jerry was asked if Pam were close with any relatives. According to Jerry, Pam's only surviving relatives are her mother, who Jerry said lives somewhere in Wyoming, a brother identified as Randy Ash, who resides in Durango, Colorado, and a half-sister known only to Jerry as Tina, who lives in Albuquerque.

Tina. Tina. Just the mysterious Albuquerque Tina over here. So police go check on their Oregon house. Maybe there's some clues there. What's that? Yeah, let's check that out. They speak to neighbors. They check their records.

They found that one contact with Pam Candelario was on 9-1, so September 1, 2012, at about 2 o'clock in the afternoon when Pam was stopped on the street for a seatbelt violation by an officer. Okay. So that's the only time that she – there's no like – she wasn't up there getting caught slinging crack rocks or anything like that here. So they said they checked the regional database for the address and found a record that shows Pam and Ralph are the current owners of the property. The record shows they purchased it for $145,000. This cop said he found the house was for sale and met with the neighbor here, Carolyn Palmer. We talked about her.

Palmer said she's lived in her residence for a long time and said that the Candelarios had been selling their house and that Carol had made an offer on the house of $154,000 but the real estate broker hadn't been able to contact them yet to give them the offer. Carol also advised she was in the house the other day with the real estate agent and advised it was still fully furnished with their belongings. They said, have you ever heard any disturbances or domestic violence between Pam and Ralph? And she said she never heard anything and that they were very quiet people. Yep.

Carol called Robert Jarvis, another neighbor over to the house, and Jarvis said Ralph was very friendly, but Pam was not and would avoid conversation. Ralph said they kept to themselves and didn't share any personal information. Ralph advised that they were very quiet and that they were there and no one ever heard any arguing between them and anything like that. Nobody knows shit. They pointed out

that people would wave and he would wave back but she wouldn't. A lot of people said that here. I don't know. If she waved and we're together, that's our wave. That's the way lot of people said that here. I don't know. If she waved and we're together, that's our wave. That's the way. That's what I mean. You don't have to wave.

It's fine. We don't need two waves. Jesus. Jesus. How much waving do you need? Fucking needy prick. That's everybody fucking so needy. So the real estate agent, so they met with the Coldwell Banker real estate people.

Yeah. And they said they wanted to list their residence the candelarios they said they wanted to sell the house and buy a commercial problem property because pam collected and sold antiques and wanted a place to sell them remember she was they said that they knew ralph restored cars and car parts and neighbors said or i'm sorry the real estate agent said that pam owned a beautiful victorian house in colorado and wanted wanted to move, but Ralph's business had picked up and they couldn't move. That's the dream house that she still owns, apparently. Pam had told them they'd been married for about a year and that she'd left her husband and he left his wife, which was true.

The Johnsons advised that Pam was a very happy person and outgoing. Those are the real estate agents. They said Ralph was more closed and not very talkative. So they got the complete exact opposite experience as everybody else with them. They said they had gotten offers but hadn't been able to relay them yet. So six months pass with nothing to show for it after the murder. Ralph is still saying he's having a hard time. He spent some of the day before the six month anniversary of the crime pulling weeds around the house and working on the yard at his home he said he didn't want to spend a lot of time at the business he and his wife built so he was

trying to avoid it he said the days pass with difficulty but he continues to try to be patient with the long investigation he said he's found out firsthand in an awful way that reality is so unlike television crime dramas that nearly always wrap up with a solution. And 30 minutes. And in 30 minutes. Candelario said in past discussions with the police chief that he's learned that he may have to live to learn with the fact that the crime took place, took his wife, and it may never be solved. Yeah. Sometimes these things are never solved. Sure. He said that he's learned about compassion others have for him.

Friends driving from Walsenburg to Denver from Denver just to talk. He says he remains working with counselors to learn patience and how to cope with the tragic loss he's faced. He said anyone who goes through a tragedy has to find a way to deal with it. Find someone to talk to and never give up. He said, how are you coping with things? And he says, I don't know how to answer that question. There's a lot of frustration. I try to stay busy. You still have to go on even if it's difficult. It's been extraordinarily difficult. I talk with my counselors, but it's a monumental task. There have been

days when I just wanted to give up. I haven't lost anybody recently i i got the same just give up yeah i just want to give up i'm sorry it's on a quick just give it up man it's over with early 2015 though um they police find some evidence that uh some throw rugs that had pam's blood on them were washed in the house. And also they found some other things. They called it tampering with the crime scene by staging some items in the home and removing others. Then they decide all of this could only have been done by one person. So they arrest Ralph for first degree murder.

Really? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. They have a hearing, seven and a half hours of testimony from seven witnesses yeah about the whole thing special prosecutors call six witnesses to the stand ranging from a paramedic to the state bureau of investigation forensic forensic experts all these different fucking people they bring in witnesses also had just like ambulance drivers to see what his reaction was uh they said that they described photographs they made room by room with a two story home, testified about the condition of the home, saying that numerous curio cases and their contents were found mainly undisturbed.

Countering the claim that saying that these were burglars that were madly ripping the house apart. Yeah. Some of these things were just perfectly neat and fine. They said that. They also said that the defense saying that these were probably a killing done by burglars, someone who was trying to obtain money to pay off a Mexican mafia debt. Right. You bunch of putas.

Gee, putas. Hey, putas. Hey, putas. Pay my debt, putas. Pay my debt. I'm going to call you names. I know three words of Spanish, andas. Pay my debt, puta. Pay my debt. I'm going to call you names. I know three words of Spanish, and I'm going to use them all. Torres said that, this is the cop here, said that forensic testing found DNA under a single fingernail of the victim, and that was possibly from the defendant or a male Candelario relative.

So either him or someone related to him. So he's the only guy home. was possibly from the defendant or a male Candelario relative. So either him or someone related to him. So he's the only guy home. I mean, do they find poop on her at all? That's any pee anywhere. That would be an open and shutter there. So they said the DNA test used could not narrow down the sample to one specific person. They testified that two rugs were found in the washing machine of the home and later removed and hung up to dry inside the home.

Inside? Yeah. One small drop of blood from the victim was found on one of the rugs. They testified that a suitcase containing women's clothing believed to be that of the victim was found packed and sitting outside the bedroom on the home's second floor. In earlier interviews, he said him and his wife had planned a six-week trip to Oregon. There was no evidence presented that any travel bags belonged to Ralph were packed in preparation for a long vacation.

So, yes. They also said the life-size photograph of a fireplace poker was placed near the victim's head injury during the autopsy and is obviously the murder weapon. They said also investigators who interviewed Ralph testified to his demeanor and statements made at the hospital,

and when he was being flown around, they said, he said, I was attacked by these two men, but never really all that clear. Switching tenses all the time again, which is not great. Remember that piece, that's, I'm doing this, now she is, that's not, she was that. She was that, yeah. Yeah.

They said all the cross examination of witnesses here they had and they said that they obtained Suarez, who's the defense guy here. Oh, no. He's the case supervisor. He said, who told investigators of problems the defendant had with a, quote, businessman down the block from his antique store. So obviously he's going to come in, stay for two days and kill his wife. Obviously, that's not him, though. Right. Only the wife. Yeah. They said information obtained by a parole officer who said a parolee might have information the killing was done during a botched burglary. This is the defense.

So they tried to interview the parolee, but it was found that the information was secondhand from an unknown source incarcerated within the prison. So prison gossip is what it was. So they interviewed all these people. People's names came up. Nobody. It never went anywhere. Nothing ever went anywhere. In summation, the special prosecutor said there's no evidence that anyone besides Ralph and Pam were ever in the house when this happened.

They can't find any evidence. And based on that, they're going to have to charge Ralph because Pam didn't do it to herself. That's it. And they said Ralph's statement is a disaster. His long statement is a fucking mess in terms of believability. Um, no forensic smoking gun, obviously.

So he's going to plead not guilty. I mean, yeah, you have to, right? You have to. Yeah. Now during this case,

Dateline wants to film the court proceedings. Okay, good. Do it. They want to, they want to follow this bad bad boy because this is a fucking wild case. This is nuts. Yeah. This is crazy.

So at that point, Dateline does a little research and they go, hey, whatever happened to his first wife? Oh, yeah. Where the fuck is Dina? Right. Now you have this story, which is crazy, and a guy whose first wife is still just i don't know she just disappeared one day she loves her kids but she doesn't want to be here so they got a little bit interested now in this whole thing uh they said this her the first wife's case remains an open missing persons case and um you know who knows but it may not be a fact presented to the court

okay like in court they can't say he's more likely to kill pam because yeah yeah that's not allowed so um that's that prosecutors will contend here just that he killed pam staged the home to make it look like an invasion so the defense attorneys don't want cameras in court defense is interesting yeah that's usually the people who want it and they don't want it. They said that can't have that, can't have the court in there. It'll make it prejudiced against him. They said at least one CBS 48 Hours producer will be present at the trial with at least one other crew member and agreed upon number of cameras should the request be, you know, be taken granted here. So they said in a letter to the judge, CBS News Magazine 48 Hours said, our cameras are small and can be placed in very discreet locations

that can be wired into another room outside the main courtroom. Like, we'll just put a little camera up. We don't need to do shit. We can go back and forth to that camera from the studio. We don't have to be there. Yeah, we don't do shit. We'd be totally remote. She said in the past, CBS has used small remote cameras to cover trials in Colorado and ensures the cameras are turned toward the ceiling of the courtroom when jurors are being seated or leaving for breaks.

If you watched a trial recently, you see they always do that. you see they always do that. So one of the two deputy state public defenders advocating for Ralph filed an objection by this, saying, quote, a number of requests for expanded media coverage have been made by various organizations at various stages. This court has denied them all. So why let them do that? So they said in this particular case, the defense anticipates a number of witnesses who will testify about the fact that two other men naming names are responsible for this murder.

The defense has great concern that the presence of cameras in the courtroom, even discreet ones, will deter these witnesses from testifying truthfully, not wanting to be labeled as snitches. Excellent point. To be killed by the Mexican mafia. So the judge kind of does a halfway to both of them here. He rules that video and audio recordings can be taken of the opening and closing presentations, the verdict and the sentencing if there's a conviction. But not the testimony. OK. So the trial, it's a five man, seven woman jury.

I'm sorry, five woman, seven man jury. OK. seven woman jury or i'm sorry five woman seven man jury okay so they said that the prosecution made a pretty strong case but they don't really have any ironclad evidence right and um witnesses for ralph are like you know prison people saying that they heard through another guy that mexican mafia killed his family and another guy who got called in there by the defense as a defense witness and then took the fifth on the stand for some reason like which was weird so during the yeah i think that's a defense strategy oh to say like i'm gonna ask you very pointed questions about something and you're gonna act afraid of it and take the fifth like maybe you had something to do with it and

that'll put some doubt in their head that'll put some doubt why is he taking the fifth it's a it's smart if i had a defense attorney to try to muddy the waters a little bit here so the deliberation here um they're sent in to deliberate and they said the jury would deliberate it's on a tuesday is when it ends There's a little background of the deliberations here. The jury said they deliberated the remainder of Tuesday and all day Wednesday. Okay. And as Tuesday ended, Wednesday began. It was obvious the jurors, they were interested in the whole thing.

They were ready to fucking really strap in and have an argument here. So they said the first informal vote was taken Tuesday. The count was nine to three for guilty. Oh. Okay. For the prosecution, though, they need obviously it to be unanimous. Yeah. So the jury was given instructions and that there were no lesser offenses for them to consider. They just had to decide guilty or not guilty of first-degree murder and tampering with evidence and nothing else.

Okay. of first-degree murder and tampering with evidence and nothing else. Okay. So they said two fellow jurors, including this one here, believe that the defendant to be not guilty and the other guilty but of second-degree murder, account not included in the instructions. So it's nine to three. Two of them say not guilty. One of them says, I think, second-degree murder,

which isn't even an option. Right. So they said voting and conversations and heated debate they had a whole god damn it south of pueblo yeah no one seemed to be moving it was still nine to three what they didn't yeah they didn't take secret ballots either all 12 new they just did it out in the open so okay they were like fucking susan will not agree to our shit which is the whole reason why you do a secret ballot so you don't attack people into badgering them into believing what you believe.

The jurors continued deliberations on Wednesday, and the one who believed him to be guilty of second-degree murder finally changed their mind and went to first-degree murder. As Wednesday's deliberation dragged on, all the family members and everything, they're getting worried about what's going on here.

They said that as five o'clock hour approached on that day, this juror said, the jury seemed deadlocked, 10 for conviction and two for not guilty. The jury foreman had their hand on the doorknob of the jury room about to open the door and tell the bail if the jury could not reach a unanimous decision hung jury then uh this juror said another juror suggested let's just sleep on it one more night one more night let's sleep on it if by the noon break tomorrow we're still deadlocked we'll all eat some lunch and then we'll fucking go tell him never mind but we are gonna eat a lunch on the state though that we're gonna do was this poly short angling to not have to believe it was i believe it was like this is great some guy really likes the hotel yeah this is sweet they got all tv channels man

it's it's one of those heavenly beds can we just stay one more night damn there's no bugs in here like in my house. So they came in and they did that. They said, let's do it. We'll wait one more day maybe. And that seems reasonable, I think, though. That's very mature. Yeah. That is very mature.

Don't go in there with the hung jury and cost the county and the state all this money all over again. Let's at least think about it. Make sure that for sure we are deadlocked i don't want to wake up and come back here tomorrow morning we're done yeah that's it i'm not doing that 12 other strangers to do this shit again yeah so now they thursday comes and the 10 members who are the guilty people say that they're for the guilty they asked the other two to talk about what was bothering them about the case what what makes you think they're not guilty let. They asked the other two to talk about what was bothering them about the case. What makes you think they're not guilty? Let's talk about it. Talk amongst yourselves.

Discussions led to another look at some of the evidence, some of the photographs. Jurors studied the photos in question. One had blood droplets on the floor of the Candelario kitchen, blood droplets that trailed from the victim's body where the suspected murder weapon, the fireplace poker, was leaned against a a wall it was obvious after its use for the you know purpose of killing someone that it had been put

back in its usual resting place they were like that's interesting the other photo they said would uh kind of mess up his testimony testimony of candelaria on videotape made during his interrogation showed him telling agents he at one point in his captivity by the two home invaders said uh killed his wife was allowed to go to the garage to get some money he had under hidden under a candle and then he was allowed to go get wood yeah so like they let this guy go outside and he didn't just take off he didn't go when he saw the and he didn't just take off. He didn't go. When he saw the neighbor, he didn't go, call the fucking police, 911, 911, 911. People in my house. Holy shit. Those guys would have ran out of the house if he did that, probably.

Absolutely. Yeah. Instead, no. So they said that was interesting. They didn't really like that. So he had also told law enforcement investigators he tried to retrieve a shotgun that was located in the upper level of the garage, and he had also written down his portion of the story and gave it out to the to the newspaper. The photograph showed without a doubt that there was a shotgun in a case in the upper level of the

garage. The shotgun shown in the photograph was shown to be pristine, clean and free of dust, dust, unlike every other surface in the upper area of the building. Oh, my God. He put it up there after. Afterwards. Had to be. He said it was clean. Everything else was covered in cobwebs and dust.

It's the upper part. You know the upper part of my garage? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cobwebs and dust. It's gross, yeah. It's gross. Yeah, it's a bummer thing. The fact that the case had been placed in the location to support his story and had not been there for a long time.

Now the jurors went, oh, shit, I didn't notice that. Look at that. None of them noticed it until then. Even the guilty people hadn't realized that. They went, holy shit, look at this shit. There's no dust on it. This is fucking crazy. He put it there.

So the verdict comes in and they find him guilty of first degree murder and tampering with evidence. With the shotgun. With the shotgun up there and tried to stage it and everything. So sentencing is going to come in, but not so fast here. Yeah. Okay. An hour before he's scheduled to appear in the third judicial district court in Walsenburg for sentencing. He attempts to kill himself in the county jail.

Really? Yes. He attempted to slash his throat and wrists with a razor blade. Ooh. They were said to be non-life-threatening injuries. Couldn't do it. Damn it. It's hard.

He spent the night in an undisclosed medical facility, and they said the jail does not have a specific policy of putting inmates on suicide watch when they're convicted. They do that all the time now. If you're getting convicted, sentenced to life in prison, they're going to put you on suicide watch for this reason. Yeah. Yeah. And sentenced to the State Department of Corrections, he was being held in a regular jail pod at the time of the attempt here. Is that right? This doesn't happen a lot around here.

Meaning someone in for murder. So they confirmed that Candelario used a disposable razor to cut himself. They asked the sheriff if they thought this suicide attempt was a serious one and he said I don't think so. We don't really care.

It doesn't matter to us. I mean, Jesus. He's going to be the state's problem real soon so he's about to get out of here what county ain't gonna bother him no more so sentencing here during this pam's oldest daughter shannon addressed the court she told the court over the last two years things happened she'd like to share with her mother but no longer can she said she's reminded of her mom whenever she looks at her sister Kelsey, who resembles her mom so much. She never envisioned she'd have a life without her daughters in it, and we never pictured our lives without her. She said, we've mourned her to death, and now we have to mourn our future.

Or we mourned her death, and now we have to mourn our future. It's our responsibility to carry on her goals. And she also said thank you to the cops for figuring this all out. Kelsey was sobbing in the courtroom. She did not address the court. They were there every day, though, and everything like that. Ryan Brackley told the court, we got to know somewhat the life of Pam Candelario, a woman who had hope for the future. That hope and the future did not include the defendant.

We don't have a lot did not include the defendant. Right. We don't have a lot to say about this defendant. One guy said here, today he faces sentencing for the brutal murder he committed. The court has heard from Shannon Palmer and the Palmer family he destroyed. The defendant has destroyed the lives of his two young sons and tried to destroy the lives of two young men who he tried to blame for his crimes. Those two dudes, they were like,

oh, you killed this lady at first that he blamed it on ralph speaks they go what do you got to say for yourself ralph he said quote i've maintained i'm innocent throughout this whole process i know he peed a little all over yeah excuse me i just shit excuse me hold on jesus i need new pants he said throughout this whole process from the beginning to the end, and I still maintain this, a friend told me we have a legal system, not a justice system. That's what he told the judge. When they said, beg for your life, and he said, well, I'm innocent, and this isn't a real, this isn't justice, it's just the law. Can I go to the bathroom?

Which is not what you want to say yes you might thank you yeah after a slight pause he says thank you he goes okay this is the law not justice what is that steve martin do it does that what is it uh yeah yeah yeah yeah there's a can i go to the bathroom? Yes, you can. Okay. Thank you. Exactly what it is. The judge has something to say to him, though. The judge

says, Mr. Candelario. Oh, boy. That's a bad start. Speech or no speech, we have a criminal justice system and the rule of law allows everyone their day in court. He said that you've had your time in court. He called the murder of Pamela Candelario reprehensible, brutal, and deliberate.

And the judge spoke of his willingness to deceive everyone from law enforcement to his family to the entire community. You, sir, may fuck off life in prison without the possibility of parole yeah it's incredibly cruel what he did he spent two days yeah after bashing her head to death i think he bashed her head and then just let her die on the kitchen floor for probably a day and then he was like i don't know figuring out how to how to get out of this and then started shitting himself and pissing himself every five minutes that was his his plan was i'll hit myself in the head and then i'll shit myself sitting it for a day and a half and then fucking just piss myself the whole time and then they'll believe me because what kind of a what guilty person shits in their pants for two days i'm gonna go buy wood and piss all over

myself what a fucking weird thing to say here he also gets 18 months for his class six felony conviction of tampering with evidence to run concurrent with the life without the other thing that they're wondering now is it really comes to light is what the fuck happened to Dina? Yeah. What's up with Dina? It's crazy. Where's she? So the son thinks that his father must have done something.

Had to. Had to. If there's something this elaborate that he would set up for this, who knows what he set up for her. But then again, it's also plausible if she's talking to a bunch of people online and she went to meet one of them that anything could happen to her but maybe they did it that's the thing who knows but with this guy around i would look at him first yeah anyway far too plausible he said the son said that after that he kind of started thinking my father must have done something so he started thinking, where would he put her body? Where would my father have put her body?

He said when he was maybe 13 or 14, he used to go to old coal mines just looking for signs of anything to see if maybe his mom's body got thrown into a mine by his father. Because there's so many mines around there. That's the place you'd look. So, holy shit, they they said you actually went and looked and he said oh yeah i went through a lot of those mines myself he just explored they said alone and he said yeah just looking for my mother yeah they said you're looking for the remains of your own mother i mean i can't imagine what that's like and he said i can't explain it it's always been a fire that just drives you to do something then one day I'd been going through some of my dad's stuff in the basement and I found a box of stuff that she had supposedly taken with her that he kept.

A denim jacket her mother had given her. Her passport was there. All right. Yeah. It's obvious. They said, what was that like? And he said, that was kind of the final straw. Naturally, if she was gone, she would have taken those things with her, and it was my final piece of the puzzle.

He left it there. Left it in the box in the basement, and that was that. The kid said, he knew about that. He knew it. He said, did my father kill my fucking mother after that? Why wouldn't he get rid of that? What an idiot. That's what i mean

but nobody noticed it for 15 years yeah that's the thing and why as a guy with life without why wouldn't he just say it that's what's so weird too um it's i don't understand it it's he's already in there he's fucked but he is appealing appeals are going on yeah they said that um no shannon said that aaron wouldn't talk much about his mother when they were married but you know when shannon and aaron were married but uh he said she said quote i would find him up at night just over her stuff just looking over her papers i mean just emotional trying to piece it together trying to figure it out going through the papers just going through her stuff there is still an open investigation

in the dina candelario case i mean it's it's less than 20 years ago it is definitely solvable or at least you know figure out where the fuck he put this lady and there's somebody put him but if you have any information you can contact uh the i think it's the sheriff's department here at 719-553-2588 if you're bored if you feel like perusing some southern colorado coal mines near the pueblo area don't go in them poke around i mean no duh i mean if you're going to explore them anyway while you're in there yeah if you see a fucking for a body if you see a blonde lady you know let us know and uh we can give her kids some fucking closure because that's horrible. Not we because we're not going to do anything.

But don't go in those with the stress. Don't go looking for them. No. But if you're like an old – some people go explore old minds. That's what they do. I know. That scares the shit out of me though because – It's terrifying.

Yeah. What if there's no oxygen in there? That's what scares me. The collapse who gives a shit. Maybe there will be two bodies there. Maybe so. So if you do run across her, though, maybe give a little shout out to somebody else here. This case is one of those cases where they have no physical evidence.

There's no people love the physical evidence. That's what you want. DNA, there we go. But this is ridiculous. want oh dna there we go but this is ridiculous and the fact that i i think it's the funniest part the part that fucking messed with me the most is he was like all this happened here's all the details in a very rambling form of something that you yeah you know definitely how you wouldn't say it to people yeah not only that but then he waits two weeks and he's like oh yeah they rate me too did i mention that i i didn't want to tell you i didn't want to tell you because it's real

embarrassing but like really you got like i don't know man that's to me even grosser because he's like oh that'll really they'll feel even worse for me now yeah you know what i mean like that really pisses me off this guy i don't know this guy sucks it's especially i don't want i don't know that i don't like it evidence when there's no physical evidence tying anybody else to it no there's no that's what i mean he's the the only physical evidence is that he was the only fucking person in the house yeah two people wandering around a house raping someone generally some shit yeah for two days they're gonna have to piss they're gonna have to shit they're gonna have something around the house. They're going to leave a sign of themselves,

a hair, spit, something, and they don't find shit. So there that is. So if you like that episode, tell the world about it. Get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars and say something nice about the show. It really helps drive us up the chart.

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Shit, that's a fun show. And give it a chance if you haven't listened to it and you're like, I don't know about sports. Trust us. If you like us, you'll like you're like I don't know about sports trust us if you like us you'll like the show you don't know what you like we know what you like let us decide for you what's best for you god damn it give it a try

and it's crime and sports so do that head over to shutupandgivememurder.com the only tickets left for a regular live show are Dallas on December 2nd everything else is sold out but you can absolutely get tickets for a regular live show are Dallas on December 2nd. Everything else is sold out. But you can absolutely get tickets to the virtual live show. Get in there. That is shutupandgivememurder.com slash virtual live.

Right. October the 26th. It's coming for a week. We'll have it going. It's our Halloween spectacular. You can watch it as many times as you want in that week. Hang out. Do whatever.

It'll be available that whole time. We're going to dress up in costumes, have an extra creepy Halloween story. We cannot wait, so get those tickets. That is for October the 26th and a week afterwards. Virtual live, just like a regular live show, except you don't have to leave your goddamn house. Isn't that nice? Your own booze, your own food, your own pajama pants to poop in. It's up to you.

That's all over. Poop and pee is at will and no one will no one will be the wiser and you will i promise you not have 105 pound chick kick you in the chest after throwing a drink on you at a virtual live show anyone who was at atlanta will understand what the hell we're talking about that place is some live shit going on boy they are playing man our shows are like a big kumbaya like it's a big hangout of a bunch of like-minded people just instead we our shows are normally woodstock 69 and in atlanta it was woodstock 99 like people were fucking i swear i saw one of the monitors go over and catch a flame like it was like what's happening unbelievable

you people are fucking wild atlanta but uh then charlotte wonderful the next night very easy I saw one of the monitors go over and catch a flame. It was like, what's happening here? You people are fucking wild, Atlanta. But then Charlotte, wonderful the next night. Very easy, very calm. Back to normal. A baby, nuts, but calm. But you know what? That baby was calmer than anyone in Atlanta. Anyone in Atlanta.

Adult, sober people, any person that was in Atlanta, that baby was calm as shit. He out subdued you. He did. So get in there and come see a live show. If not, come see the virtual live show. You will not be disappointed. We fucking throw down.

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of bonus episodes, over 200 of them, and new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder, and you get access to it all. This week is no different. We have two fun ones. For crime and sports, we're going to talk about Operation Slapshot, which is a hockey scandal that happened in the 2000s where people were betting when they shouldn't have been betting. It's very funny.

There's coaches and players and all sorts of people involved. And then also we're going to talk about the movie Slapshot. We had never seen it somehow as adult men. We had never seen this movie. We both decided to watch it on the same day somehow. That was really independent of each other, too. We hadn't even talked about it. I don't know how the fuck it came up.

I think it just came on Netflix or something. It was a suggested. We were like, eh, why not? So we clicked on it. We were both watching it and love Reg Dunlop, and we'll talk about the whole thing and add it to our list of top sports movies. Then for Small Town Murder, this is so much fun. I can't wait to talk about the whole thing and add it to our list of top sports movies. Then for Small Town Murder, this is so much fun. I can't wait to talk about this. The Fyre Festival.

Yeah. What the fuck happened there? The disaster. What's Fyre Festival 2 going to be like? Where did Billy McFarlane come from? Why do you guys keep going to these? What planet? And God damn it, if somebody seems like a real charismatic guy that wants your money,

don't give it to them. Stop doing that. Stop doing it. So that's all at Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. And, of course, you get a shout out here where Jimmy will mispronounce your name while he wants to get it right. Before we get to that, though, certainly follow us on social media as well. We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram. We're at Small Town Pod on Facebook, at Murder Small murder small on twitter and follow us hang out with us keep doing everything and also follow all the

pages for your stupid opinions because they're going to be up and do all of that and keep hanging out with us and jimmy please hit me with the name of the people who would never ever beat us with fireplace pokers then hanging out pooping their pants for three days before they call the cops jimmy hit me with that list. This week's executive producers are Jordan Bennett. Thank you so much, Jordan, for always being a part of this. Danielle Loveland, thank you. Alexander Frost and the Watershed Voice nominated for a journalism award.

Congratulations and thank you. Jeff Lewis, we missed you in Charlotte. Thank you. Anachronix LLC, thank you. Kyle at Roadrunner Cannabis in New Mexico, my friend, thank you. Love that. Yeah, wonderful man. Leslie Savage, it was a pleasure to meet you.

Donald McCord and his 103-year-old World War II veteran papa. Happy birthday, Mr. Ben Towns. Thank you. Happy birthday. Thank you. Happy birthday, Mr. Ben Towns. Thank you. Happy birthday. Thank you. Happy birthday to you. Taylor Clegg. Clegg.

Taylor Clegg. Thank you for driving so far to come see us in Charlotte. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Other producers this week are the Scarlet Horbys and the CIS Movement. Liz Vasquez on her way to the UK. Skip Bayless and tyler manfred

janice hill tanya willis giving it both ways mildred happy birthday from us and debbie thank you stretch cunningham kyle norwig dr cubert pam parent james crate creasy snyder with no last name uh david baker shitball weasel head junior patrick Doherty, Rascal Beardley, Chris Cerrone. That was Jr. I thought you were going to say something else at the start of it. I was like, wow, that's impressive. Yikes. Rascal Beardley, Chris Cerrone, Scott Sullivan, Kelly Pearson, Darren Wilkins, Mark Hollinger, Tin with no last name, Mikey Stevenson, Dick Spaulding, Sarah Bettler, SLED, the actual S-L-E-D, the fucking people who investigate things. I don't think it's really them, but that's the initials that we're given.

Alyssa Sick, Siak, Siak, that's what it is, Siak. Derek, with no last name, Christine Erickson, Kelly Stroll, Dale Caldwell, Andrea Roberts, Darby Casey, Whitney Adams, Rosemary Garcia, Michael Longwell, Benjamin Ruback, Rebecca Dijak, Shane Gordon, Dwayne Donovan, Sadooth Alexander, DC2891, Nicholas Akins, Tristan Miller, Jason D, Jodea, Pacos Priggs, Briggs, Leslie Kennedy, Taylor Hawley, Thank you. Matt Roberts. Thank you. Mama Kenna. Evan Aroli. Brian Wellborn. Joey Murda87, Amanda Milliken, Raven Thompson, Kevin Miller. Oh, like Percy Miller's brother that's dead.

Kevin, no, that's kids. Kids Meet World, 206. Emily Jones, that's Master P. Jennifer James, Antoinette Nichols, Daniel Sawyer, Drew Sawyer. I imagine those are brothers. Wesley Behar, Miss Shelly Belly Jelly Bean. Adam Grout, the brother of Tyle and also Thinset. Allie Yao VIP.

Allie Yao VIP? I'm not sure. Jim Kolb. Jabe Richardson. Jabe Chibi. Richardson. Lauren Gb. Jabe Richardson. Jabay Chibi. Richardson. Lauren Gassner. Casey Burns.

Liz Sullivan. Donna Taylor. Jennifer Woodard. Katie Tucker. Brian Natureboy. Loney. Ashley Madeary. Madear.

Madear. JV McGilt. Tucker. Tucker Doyle. That is two last names. Meredith with no last name. Simon Brown. Nicole Adams. Miss Z. Aliza. Alicia probably Lopez. Maria G. Jamie Moon. Jody Salzman. Katie Ferrero. Cliff with no last name. Hannah Obey. O-U-B-E. Ryan H. Carl with no last name. Katerina. Katerina A. D. Cave. Scott O. carl would know last name cat katarina katarina uh d cave scott o kev would know last name christina would know last name justice haffen uh miss chestnut uh jason hensley

nick nicky nicky shepherd eric r noel noel would know last name shauna oh, that's just Sean Thornton. Teresa Basate. Holly Nassis. Nese Niasse. Janir the Bat. Charlie. McClanahan. Ruse Kid. Deja Brown. AJ Macy. Michael McCoy.

Melissa. Malaysia. Malaysia Hall. I don't know, that's an I and an A. Malaysia? Maybe, perhaps. Sydney Galihar. Galihar.

Ben Thompson. Donovan King. Kathy Stiltner. Malaysia? Maybe. Perhaps. Sydney Galihar. Gallagher. Ben Thompson. Donovan King. Kathy Stiltner. Stiltner. Pedro with no last name. Carly Ryan. AJ Ski.

One, two, three. Matt with no last name. Alex Gibbs. Jennifer W. Ben Neve. Erica Henge. Corinne Lavelle. Justin Robinson. Alexandra Nann.

Allison Pawlowski. Jeff Alble, Jake Danky, Jason Palmer, Bleach Black Cat, Russ Morgan, Jamie Harper, Rogan Helms, Lisa Moody, Jasmine, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazzy, Jazogan, Misty, with no last name. Casey with no last name. Jeremy Fisher, Brendan Sather, Matt Mosher, Jerry Cockrell, Jessica Miller, Max with no last name. Liberty Schumacher, Mara Gannon, Tony Gruters, Joseph Thompson, Joanne D'Onofrio, all Vincent's wife, obviously. Give him our love, would you? Janelle Johnson, Mike Evans, Bailey with no last name. Grant with no last name. Happy Maggot, a.k.a. Maria Kip Soosley, Drew Taylor, Alexandra Johnson, Trish McCluskey, Paige Pieschke, Matt DeFever, David Henry, Uriah Sporks, Sparks, not Sporks.

Whose last name is Sporks? Joshua Wilson, Matthew Marks. Johnny Sporks, nice to meet you. Jeanette McMahon, Vienna Castellanos. Ah, you know what it is. Amanda Anziano, you know what that is. Courtney Cunningham, Wayne with no last name. Lacey Kotaki, careful with thatham. Wayne with no last name. Lacey Kotaki. Careful with that one.

Beth with no last name. Kakashi 98. Lisa Bell. Lena Marie Jacobson. Christy Kelly. Samantha Wagstaff. Brooke Montana. Brent with no last name.

Sada with no last name. Jasmine Lauren. Tiara W. Zander with no last name. Tyrone Bullock Jr. Lisa Wright. Becky Neibarger. Dina. Dina.

It's Dina Hollister, Autumn with no last name, Beautiful Monster, Liana Schulster, Caleb Nelson, Nathan Dolezal, Shannon McCarty, Ashley Johnson, Brendan Gardner, Baitman, James Spaulding, Emma Scott, Wavy Jones, Madeline Biggins, thank you, all of our patrons, you're amazing. Thank you, everybody, so much. You crazy, wild sons of bitches. We goddamn love you. Yeah.

And we hope that you're enjoying it. If, by the way, you do your donation for Patreon and you do not hear your shout out, number one, it's really easy to miss your name. Yeah. Because if you're listening to seven minutes of names, you could zone out for 30 seconds and not even realize you did it miss your name so that's totally totally normal but also if you listen to it and you still don't hear it just just shoot jimmy a message and he'll easy it out so it's super easy what you don't do is wait like a year and then send a nasty message that you're super angry and that you want all your year's money back, even though you've enjoyed the bonus material a lot. But you didn't get that shout out a year ago and you've just been waiting for it for a year. Or it possibly happened and you missed it.

We'd like to make you happy right away. So just message Jimmy. He'll go, oh, yeah, I'll hit you next time. Easy. Done. Done and done. Super easy. So do that.

You want to get a hold of either one of us. Very easy to do that also. Shout out to GibbyMurder.com. Drop down menus, links, all that shit. Thank you, folks, for joining us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today.

Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.