Small Town Murder - #437 - Sex, Greed & Vice Principals - Toms River Township, New Jersey

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

This week, in Toms River Township, New Jersey, a wild & cruel conspiracy is the only explanation when one member of an important, well liked local couple is brutally killed. An affair with the local high school vice principal is uncovered, along with many insurance policies, and a phone record that leads detectives to multiple other culprits, in another state! Will anyone in this mess get the death penalty??Along the way, we find out that you don't want anyone to tamper with you scarecrow, that you should never open a joint bank account, with the person you're having an affair with, and that sometimes, true killers can go unpunished!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Tom's River Township, New Jersey, when a member of a prominent, successful couple ends up murdered, there's way more than meets the eye as an elaborate conspiracy unfolds before everyone's eyes.

Welcome to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrogallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another really crazy episode of Small Town

River, as they've been, I was going to say lately, but really for about seven years now. They've been pretty crazy. So we're going to continue that trend today with a really, really wild story very quickly off the top before we get started. First of all, thank you. Thank you. Thank you to everybody. Thank you to everybody. Thank you to everybody who purchased the virtual live show and watched that for Halloween.

I hope you liked our costumes. What a party. Jimmy with hair is going to be wonderful always. That's going to be fun stuff. I've been trying to figure out how to grow hair back. It changed my mind about all of it. Never mind. It's hot, you said.

Pretty hot up there. Never again. So there you go thank you for doing that if you want to see us live you can do that december 2nd dallas still a few tickets available there not many but a few tickets available there december 2nd dallas shut up and give me murder.com is where you get that and every other thing you could think of small town murder based you want merchandise it's all there get in there and do it patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you

get all of your bonus material and you go slash crime in sports what is that that's our other podcast that you should probably also listen to and also your stupid opinions our other podcast some of you checked it out to get the lord calvert's review the whiskey that the whiskey that will make you behead a woman in a trailer. So check that out. Sounds like exactly what you assumed it would be. Exactly. Episode 8 of Your Stupid Opinions features the Lord Calvert's Review, so you guys want to check that out over there.

But Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you get all the extra stuff, the bonus material, anybody $5 a month or above. You get a whole big back catalog of bonus material, a couple hundred episodes there, bonus episodes to get into into new ones every other week including this week which you're going to get for uh crime and sports which you'll have access to you're going to get the donnie moore story which if you want to hear a tragic story my goodness watch a man go downhill very quickly after one very important thing on the baseball field went wrong this whole life went in the toilet and it was over quickly after that it's pretty wild and then for small town

murder since we did the costumes on the virtual live show yeah we've all been talking about it let's get into it finally we'll talk about the menendez brothers and uh what they did and what was done to them and all that good stuff so we'll get into all that patreon.com slash crime in sports and you'll get a shout out at the end of the show jimmy will definitely mess your name up he wants he wants to get it right you don't understand but yeah just gonna have a hard time so that said let's do the disclaimer it's a comedy show everybody it's a comedy show we're comedians so we're gonna make jokes but that doesn't make any of this any less real. That's the thing. Nothing is exaggerated.

There's nothing embellished to make it more comical or anything like that. That's the crazy part of the show is you don't have to do any of that. These stories are insane, so don't worry about it. There's none of that there. But what we don't do, what we go out of our way not to do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why is that, James? Because we're assholes. Hey, but?

But we're not scumbags. That's how that works. So if that sounds good to you, we're going to tell you a wild ass story. So buckle up for that. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever, ever go together, maybe we're not for you. But maybe we are. Give it a shot. If not, then no complaining afterwards let's

just say right that said i think it's time everybody okay to sit back let's all clear the lungs let's all shout shut up and give me murder let's do this j Jimmy. What do you say, everybody? Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yes. All right. We're going to Toms River, New Jersey. Okay. Toms River Township, New Jersey, technically, I guess it is. It's in southern New Jersey. It's about an hour to Trenton, New Jersey, which is the capital.

An hour and a half to Manhattan. So still, that's still commutable to the city. Still there. Yeah, you can still commute to the city. So that's something there. It's a long's still commutable to the city. Still there. Yeah, you can still commute to the city so that's something there. It's a long day but you could do it.

A lot of people do that. An hour and a half is nothing on the east coast to commute to work. That's fucking wild, man. My brother does that every day. Man alive. Every day, yeah.

So that's just normal here. Jesus. It's expensive to live in the city so you try to live as close to it as you can afford to get to.

That's still nice. And then make up the difference in fuel. And that's what you do. Luckily, if you work in Manhattan, jobs usually pay pretty well. I hope so. If it's worth traveling an hour and a half for, it's got to be decent. So also an hour and 35 minutes to Ramsey, New Jersey, which was our last New Jersey episode, Too Fat to Kill. So check that one out.

I remember that one. That was his defense. I'm too fat to kill people. What are you talking about? Couldn't have done it. Yeah, it's not us. That's the defendant saying that. The county, it's in Ocean County, area code 732.

Motto here, not real creative. Again, great places, familiar faces. Oh, I like that it rhymes. Yeah, let's make it rhyme everybody that'll that'll get people pumped to come here von jovi wrote this oh you know he did you know he did that's the that's what he got it was he wrote the the jingle for the town's tourism commercial jesus christ to the tune of wanted dead or alive so history of this town.

There's conflicting stories, which I always love when people can't even agree on how the town got started. Because none of this, it's not like a thousand years ago. This isn't England. It's at most 300 years ago, and no one can agree on shit. A couple of grandparents ago told you this story. They, different sources, list the township as either being named after an english captain named william tom oh or a farmer and ferryman named thomas luker who they called tom okay it really doesn't matter i don't think honestly you could say both you say we like

both these guys both of them had a tom in their name, and we said, fuck it. That works, right? It's just a river. Who gives a shit? Who cares? So in 1992, as part of the celebrations commemorating the 225th anniversary of the town, official recognition was granted to the tradition that the Tom in Tom's River was for the farmer who ran a ferry across Goose Creek there, which is now Tom's River. Thomas Lucas.

They gave it to him. In 1979, the movie The Amityville Horror was filmed here. Okay. There you go. Not even in Amityville. No, no. Amityville's a little expensive, so you just go to Tom's River here. Local police and ambulance workers were extras there, which is fun, I guess, here. Local police and ambulance workers were extras there, which is fun, I guess, here.

The volunteer fire company was used to provide the rain in one of the exterior scenes by shooting a fire hose in the air. Rather than the big rain machines normally used in movies, they said, can y'all spray a fire hose in the air? And then that's what happened. Maybe I'll

crack a hydrant for us. Yeah, we're all just run around in the streets here. In the mid-1990s, state and federal health and environmental agencies identified an increased incidence of childhood cancers here from 1970 to 1995. Multiple investigations by everybody on Earth said that the likely source was contamination from Tom's River Chemical Plant. Gee, shocking. Weird. Which had been operating since 1952. Also, the area was designated as a U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Superfund site in 83,

and an underground plume of toxic chemicals was identified. Oh, fantastic. So after that, a discharge pipe was shut down after a sinkhole at the corner of bay avenue and vaughn avenue revealed that it had been leaking toxic shit so the plant ceased operations in 1996 so that's good i guess and then they said from 96 to 2001 the childhood cancers went completely down yeah all the way down i mean yeah and and the litigation probably still goes i'm sure it does few famous people from here actually oh really comedian dimitri martin is from here right yes um one of the real housewives of new jersey is from here okay melissa gorga um the kid who played

the guy guy now jesus who played smalls on in the Sandlot is from here. Oh, really? Yeah. The little guy. And Piper Parabo, also the actress, is from here. So Coyote Ugly, that one. The blonde? The broad and Coyote Ugly. The main girl there.

The Coyote Ugly. John Goodman's father was, you know, John Goodman's her father. Daughter of John Goodman, Jimmy. Jesus Christ. Now you know what I'm talking about. Reviews here. These are strange reviews uh five stars here's one toms river new jersey is a wonderful town on the jersey shore nice people delicious food and many nice beaches i recommend it highly okay that's five stars right there sounds like it's fucking martin for christ's sake

i don't think he's doing an act on the sidewalk, probably. Probably not. I don't think he's... He's not the welcoming committee? He's doing that old-timey doing casino lobbies where they'd have a guy just stand there for like six hours doing the same shit over and over. That's what he does, just on a street corner. I'm from here.

I have to do comedy, everyone. Poor Demetri. I have to do... They said all the material I have just over and over. I'm just standing here dressed like the 70s and Velcro shoes. That's it. I have to. Some guy that looked like Tony Soprano told me to do it.

And if I didn't, he'd hurt me. So I'm doing it. Here's four stars. It's a good place to live. It's a typical Jersey shore town. Lots of traffic and tourists. There are a lot of restaurants uh there is a mall two movie theaters and pretty much any business you could think of

yeah so a place it's the jersey shore it's the jersey shore it's tourism it's tourism driven it's so they're gonna have everything fucking corporate everything's drunk people will fight in the streets at night oh for sure that's what's going on here. Three stars here. Overpopulated. Overpriced. Schools are okay. Not much going on culturally. It's the Jersey Shore.

What kind of culture are you looking for? What are you looking for? Honestly. Let's be realistic here. You go to the Jersey Shore. There's no opera here. Where's all the ballet? Away from the Jersey Shore.

That's where it is. Away from where people come to get drunk and fight with guys from Connecticut. That's why. That's where it is. And Born to Run is on loop. Just enjoy it. Just constant. Well, no, they do mix in some Bon Jovi.

A little bit. You get like bad medicine every once in a while. A bed of roses? I'm on fire plays. At the end of the night, I they play that springsteen you know just to tone it down just to get everybody to go home yeah everybody to go home stop fist fighting in the streets yeah stop swinging bottles at each other like okay everyone's like oh come on bruce ah the pedophile song is on now let's go bruce said the night's over he's gonna find a child now bruce is coming out to a child

perhaps little girl was the worst lyric you could have put in that song bruce well that's that's every like 60s and 50s song yeah little girl and little girl little baby oh that's all of it don't say that it's the strangest fucking thing in the world not much going on culturally job market is competitive restaurants are lacking i'm a tourist area without restaurants that seems odd right beach areas are nice well it's the beach so yeah i would hope sand and water the ocean the ocean meets the fucking land it's pretty cool yeah yeah they used to wail out of here the next one i don't understand why you would review

a place if yeah this because it's all you this next one okay three stars okay honestly my major issue with this town is that it is in the suburbs and i absolutely cannot stand being outside of a large city well you knew that's then go there what the fuck are you reviewing this place for i knew i wouldn't like it but i came here and i don't like it well then that's then go there. What the fuck are you reviewing this place for? I knew I wouldn't like it, but I came here and I don't like it. Well, then that's your fault. That's your fault. It's, you know, I'm allergic to coconut. I know if I eat it, I'm not going to like it.

If I eat a fucking Mounds bar, I'm not going to review how poor it was. I don't like those. Imagine just only loving being in a fucking giant loud metropolis. I can't imagine that. There's good things about everywhere. Yeah. There's good things about everywhere. Yeah.

You just have to figure out how many of the things you like. Compromise, man. That's life. Do your pros and cons list and figure it out. They know where they like to be, so be there. Don't be here. And then they left there. And then they left there.

Population of this town, right now, it's really shot through the roof. It is 95,002 at the moment so a lot back when our story happened it was more like 60,000 okay which is still big but these towns on the east coast like this that's not a big town it's still like kind of in the woods sure it's by the beach it just doesn't feel like a big town everybody who's in the story refers to it as a small town really kind of the way yeah it's like everything revolves around the country club and all that sort of shit oh yeah so we got a different kind of we're going away from the trailer park here yeah the country club is like the small town in the

small town that's what i mean yeah that place is very insular that you're like there's no you don't experience the outside world when you're a member of a fucking country club exactly when you own when you own a boat with a name jesus god a named boat so a little few more females and males uh median age is a few years higher than usual it's about 44 here it's the average it's a suburbs 51 percent married low divorce rate you know there's a lot of a lot of assets to split up. You don't want to do that. Yeah, race of this town, 82.8% white, 2.9% black, 4.1% Asian, 8.3% Hispanic. Religion here, about 48% religious, which is almost the average. It's usually 50-50, and no surprise here in New Jersey, 30.7% of the people here are Catholic. prize here in new jersey 30.7 of the people here are catholic as we know catholics are the baptists of the south or of the north as we know 9.1 jewish wow hey we found it let's do it

i don't know the words hey hey We haven't had it in a while. I haven't been able to sing for a long time. That was beautiful. That was fun. Last election in Ocean County, 34.9% of the people voted Democrat, 63.5% Republican, 1.6% Independent. The unemployment rate here is a bit high, a bit higher than the national average, but so is the median household income, $84,928 a year. Wow. Which is a good sight higher than the national income.

Median home cost here is, if we're going to cost a living, median home cost $368,000. That's fantastic. Slightly above the national average, but not overblown compared to the income that happens here. So maybe you're going to come here. Maybe we've convinced you. It's possible. Going to the Jersey Shore. Damn it.

I've heard things, but none of them good. But you know what? I think maybe that's all a lie. We have for you the Tom's River Township, New Jersey real estate report. The average two-bedroom rental here is a little bit high. It goes for about $1,600 a month, but that's tourism is going to factor into that too with rentals. You know, so it's going to spike in tourism seasons and things like that. Two-bedroom, one-bath house here.

This is like a small little near the shore, little Jersey shore house. 1124 square feet. Little nice, yeah. It's a nice little house. It's nice inside. It's been redone probably about 2009 by the looks of it based on the granite countertops and the way that everything, the colors

are. You can see that. It's not too shabby. Marilyn Monroe pictures everywhere. I don't think you get those, but that's who's coming from this house. I was very obsessed with Marilyn Monroe. I don't know if that matters to you price-wise, but $289,900 for this house.

Not a reasonably priced house near the shore. Proximity to the water, yeah. Not bad. Your price is going to go up. Not bad at all. Here's a three-bedroom, three-bath tea bowl for each and every b-hole over here a 1974 square feet decent house um not bad a little farther away from the water pretty nice um just kind of an average house but a good size house yeah 589 900 bucks for that though my god you're. You're going to pay for it. It's steep, yeah. Then we have here four-bedroom, three-bath, 2,852 square foot.

The exterior is very weird. Yeah? It's very weird. The look of it looks like, look at my house. Like some guy built it and goes, ah, look at that. That's what it feels like. Statement piece. Yeah, but there's waterway behind it with, like, boat things and stuff like that.

So you can have a boat that you pull out. I don't know if that goes to the... Like a canal? Like a canal, yeah. Okay. Exactly. Like in Florida, like that. Yeah.

You have those here. So it's 2,852 square feet. $975,000 for that, though. For almost 3,000 square feet and near the water, you can own a boat. It's not bad. It's not bad. That's what I mean. If you've got a decent job in Manhattan or something, you're looking for a million-dollar house, there you go.

And you've got a statement piece. Get after it. Things to do here, the Comfort Food Festival. Uh-huh. Yeah, it's a free admission. This doesn't sound like much of a festival. It sounds like— Popeyes and meatloaf. It sounds like they basically have they close a street down and have people sell, you know,

handcrafted shit and Etsy stuff and live entertainment. But nobody that you want to advertise because it must be great entertainment and a beer and wine garden. So it sounds like it doesn't seem like the comfort food. That's what I mean. It's you buy it on the streets. They'll have tents with fucking like the comfort food that's what i mean it's you buy it on the streets they'll have tents with fucking food in it that's what i mean it sounds like it's just kind of a we shut down the street not much of a festival like there's not a lot of organization

there unlike the scarecrow walk which is all the walk the walk it's one again returning to downtown toms river the streets in downtown are lined with scarecrows for this annual event. Oh, yes. For two weeks, the public is invited to visit and vote on their favorite. So this is a big two week running contest. Businesses will have ballots for voting. Look for the scarecrow walk poster in their window. Holy shit here.

It's a Halloween thing, obviously. It says, do you think you have what it takes to enter the contest? What's that? Some straw in an old shirt? What's the fucking? What do you have? What it takes? An old hat to stick on some.

He has some clothes you're going to donate. Fucking stuff them with hay. That's it. With hay and throw up on the sidewalk. Their special judges. There's a there's a people's choice and a judge's choice award. OK, that's what they do here now entrants are responsible for bringing their fully assembled scarecrows to the courtyard

in front of town hall that's i mean don't tell me this isn't a small town everybody bring your scarecrows to the steps of the town hall on saturday that's not a fucking city that's a small town come on down to manhattan yeah imagine about fucking 10 000 people with scarecrows at the piling in near the bronx yeah it doesn't happen at all it's a small town so um they said a weatherproof sign with the name of your entry will be provided at check-in you then get your location for placement scarecrows will be affixed to the light post throughout downtown all scarecrows must face affixed to the light post throughout downtown. All Scarecrows must face in toward the sidewalk

and businesses, not face the street. Oh, you might scare somebody and distract them. Let's see. Public can only vote once. All entries must be family friendly. Here are the rules. Scarecrows that reflect controversial social, religious, or political

situations will not be accepted that's probably best that's probably for the best yeah they started that after uh there's about a hundred both of us are just giggling going what jokes won't offend half of our fucking audience because there's anybody you get what we're saying you know it was imagine bush jr bending over yasser arafat there you go let's make a joke from 2006 that's fine we'll leave it back there you go it's it's bush bending saddam hussein over some shit like that something useless yeah like bin laden being like on fire or some shit that should be the jokes it should be like uh they draw a line in time and anything yes yes 1972 you can do a nixon joke

your scarecrow can look like kennedy and have hay coming out of its brains out of its head that's fine but you can't have anything perfectly fine nothing nothing that'll upset people today. 20 years, I think, is the window. I think 20 years. 9-11 on the table, everybody. Get after it. Let's go. This year we announced that it's finally time for 9-11 Scarecrows. So we recommend you check in on your Scarecrow periodically. Pediatrically, I almost said.

Pediatrically. Check on it pediatrically to make sure that it hasn't fallen down or nobody's messed with it or, you know, that it's still pretty good. Is there vandalism that happens? There's got to be, right? It's the Jersey Shore. People are destroying these things. Yeah, you're drunk at 2 a.m. You're going to definitely take a scarecrow head and carry it down the street with you, take pictures.

So that's what's going on here. And they also have a Halloween parade that is recognized by the guinness book of world records as the second largest halloween parade oh in the world well where's the biggest not here somewhere else not in uh we know that much yeah so crime rate in this town we're interested here property crime right at the national average, like almost exactly at the national average. So it's about normal. So that would be a lot of, I think, your tourism, too, because that counts as drunken people in the streets and stuff like that. Something that happened.

Violent crime, though, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about half the national average. Oh. So, yeah, not a lot of that going on here. Yeah, pretty damn safe that said let's talk about a very safe situation that turned into a terrible murder let's talk about it here okay okay let's talk about some people some folks that uh i mean doing well for themselves here it sounds like it shit yeah let's start with robert here robert marshall he is born on uh december and december of 1939 oh he's from queens new york yeah his dad was a

salesman his mom was a housewife you know i think he grew up in the late 40s very 50s yeah very 1944 yeah i mean queens leave it to beaver That's what you could imagine here back then. But it's not like leave it to Beaver because his father's an alcoholic. Yeah. And as an alcoholic, that prevented him from keeping jobs for long periods of time. Oh, no. Which isn't good back then. Back then, especially, like if you had worked at a couple different places, they were like, what's wrong with you?

You know, I'm not hiring this man. He's obviously a transient. Like, he might as well have a bindle, this guy. There's a war on, and we're still firing you. We need bodies, and you're still a piece of shit. No, we're going to hire a lady over you. And retrain that person. You hear that, pal?

We're going to hire a skirt. That's how useless you are. A skirt could do your job better than you. It's the 40s. Here she is right now. Tell him, skirt. And she'd be like, I could do my job better than you, buddy. And they go back and forth.

And then we get to look at her, see? Yeah, I get to look at her, see? She's got a nice firm behind on her, see? We're going to get rid of you and get some scenery. Get some tail in here. So he didn't do well here. His family would have to move all the time. Damn it.

They'd have to move from apartment to apartment as they'd be kicked out of places. Hotel rooms they'd stay in for periods of time. It's a tough life there. But Rob's mother was a devout Catholic and would not leave her husband really wouldn't leave her husband yeah didn't do that by the time rob was 16 he lived in 10 different homes and they were currently in haverstown pennsylvania 10 different cities yeah and they were in haverstown pennsylvania and um he was the type that felt like he was better than his parents okay the whole time

because he was like these fucking trash people I'm better than them yeah they don't do anything look at me I'm better which is a funny really funny attitude to take with your family whatever your family is you're you are too you know yeah or it's really amazing um self-awareness to have at that age to be like i i know what it takes to make it work just pass some laws to let me be able to do it and i'll figure it out yeah i guess everybody does that with their family though whatever it is if you see their track like my family i saw they were like my grandmother and they were all crazy immigrants and they were like they act like they I was like wow this is hilarious like I could see the humor in how they were acting because they were just like just weird little things that were people you know whatever didn't grow up with

unless someone came from like a terrible situation somewhere and I'd be like Jesus Christ you don't have to act like that and it would make me aware of that so maybe that's what he's doing I didn't realize we were white trash until I was Jesus Christ I was probably in my 20s before I was like act like that and it would make me aware of that so maybe that's what he's doing i didn't realize we were white trash until i was jesus christ i was probably in my 20s before i was like oh not not everybody lives like this no no is that right really i always huh interesting that's interesting not everybody not everybody knows who randy stoklos is i always modeled my shit on like tv and i'd watch tv and go no none of this matches up like that's not us yeah there's no sitcom that matched my situation so at least you had like when rosanne came on you could fucking latch on to that i guess right yeah there was that yeah i

did kind of silver spoons was i was like what what is happening i don't know why do they all like each other they had a goddamn train that went around the living room and outside. I don't think anyone related to Silver Spoons. And if you do, fuck you. If you related to Silver Spoons, I don't like you. You're a dick. Must be nice, you son of a bitch. You had it super easy.

Yeah. Now, Rob wanted more than his parents had. He felt better than them and he knew that this is not okay. I need to shoot above this. Problem is, I'm not real good in school. So which is kind of – especially back then, that's kind of your way out is to do real well in school. It's also like the way to define that you're better than your parents by showing it. In the 50s, by the time – I mean he would have graduated in like 57.

In the 50s, by the time he would have graduated in like 57, by the time he would graduate school, high school, back then, if you had good grades, your life would be an easier path. You'd get a job. You could do decent. But he doesn't do that. He flunks the 11th grade. Fails that. So he has to go to summer school. And while he's in summer school, he meets another young man who was forming a band at the time never make lasting relationships with people in fucking summer school most but you got

to understand this though if you listen to like stories of like any like you know big bands from like the 80s and 90s most of them started from two guys meeting in summer school or like juvenile detention or or walking down the street in the same fucking shitty jacket yeah i met my friends being in trouble that's how you meet them yeah but i mean we all do these dumb things summer school is worse than being in trouble that's summer school is like a pattern of shitty behavior whereas detention after school is an isolated event summer school was two people. It was the people who didn't get it done during the year. Then there was like the ultra good students that were getting like a jump on something and getting like an extra credit.

And you were like, wow. There was also those two kids that got mono or some other shit disease that kept them out of school for six months. Yeah, yeah. Their sister had leukemia and they had to keep going to the Mayo Clinic or something. And he couldn't. Yeah. One of those. Yeah, yeah, their sister had leukemia and they had to keep going to the Mayo Clinic or something and he couldn't, yeah, one of those. Yeah. In May of 1980 near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really

happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great.

A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Yeah, I remember that. We had a girl who was held back a year because she had mono and then she came back the next year repeated the same grade but now we're in that great grade with her and she's so much hotter than everybody else she's got an extra year on all these broads and mono hot yeah yeah and she kisses jesus yeah yeah so uh he's rob is likes to play the drums uh-huh so he said i'll be the band's drummer okay all right so let's do that so now he's going out he's in a band yeah it's the late 50s he's playing rock and roll like oh boy pretty cool stuff you dance shit not you know he wasn't

playing like metallica or anything he was playing he's playing fucking buddy holly type shit so he is playing that one of the first gigs they play is a going away party for the older brother of one of the band members that's a good game to get you know zant gave it to him that's good it's easy um his older brother had enlisted in the air force and was about to take off at that party he meets a young lady who he takes a fancy to here. She's only 15 at the time. He's like 17. Her name is Maria Posinski, and he is going to be awfully smitten by Maria here. Maria, she is her parents' only child.

They're from Philadelphia. She comes from a very successful, very upper-class family. Oh. Oh, yeah. She attended Polish Catholic school. Jesus. Yeah. What is that like?

It's like Catholic school, but dumber. I'm just kidding. I had to. I had to. I had to. How do you not make that joke? You have to do it twice. We are comedians here, after all.

That's just, I mean, you can't set a plate in front of me of ice cream and not expect me to are comedians here after all that's just i mean you can't set a plate in front of me of ice cream and not expect me to take a bite like that's ridiculous i don't mean that obviously but it's fucking hilarious pretty funny yeah it's a terrible funny joke so i wonder what i wonder really what the differences are like other than the i guess it's just everybody's last name is ski ski yeah Ski, yeah. That was a lot of these ethnic ones. They would do that. Or it might be taught in Polish also. That's also a possibility.

Oh, fuck. Imagine a Polish Catholic school back then. It's half Polish, half Latin, kids. Enjoy. Good luck. What a nightmare. Jesus Christ. But she was a singer there, and all the nuns liked her, so that's good.

She wasn't beaten by nuns. Like my mother always complains of being, they tried to beat the left-handedness out of her. Literally. She's just left-handed. She still is. And it's like, they didn't like that. The Bible was against it.

What are you supposed to do? They would, they would whoop her ass back in the day, going to the Catholic school in the Bronx. So her parents, especially her father, said right away, you will not be dating boys, bringing them to the house and doing all that kind of shit. You can do that in your 30s, Maria. Yeah, that's later on for that.

You're going to go to school. You've got 24 years of Catholic school to do. Yeah. You've got to do it twice. There's a lot happening. Oh, so nice she did it twice. So that's what she, they want her to go to school. Her father's a doctor.

Oh, yeah. You're not dating. You're going to college. You can figure that out after your doctorate. Right. Because back then, you know, 1957, you fall in love, you get married, you get pregnant. That's it for these ladies. It's over.

These girls, and they don't go back to school and their housewives. And that was considered fine for a lot of people back then. But if you have someone who you think can have a successful career and a, you know, they just want her to go to college. So Rob though, likes this young lady. She's,

you know, attractive. No. Yeah. So they start dating secretly. Oh, that's the other thing you You'll find a way. You know?

Horniness is like water. Like, water pours into every crevice. It will find a way to flow, and that's what, so will your semen. That's the point. Telling a teenager no is, that's the luck and force in that. Yeah. Especially no to a person, a friend or a love interest. Oh, my God.

Talk about it. I'll hang out with, I'll be near them so fast how much more attractive are they now yeah right yeah so that's how it is he may have broke my heart and i'd walk away but you said no so now when i when he breaks my heart i fucking super want it now i want him back what they continued to date all throughout the rest of her high school for two years okay without her ever talk telling her parents about it wow years she never told her parents about rob until she was in college oh she went to college though she went to college yeah and then she told her parents by the way i guess that's an i told you so kind of thing yeah by the

way i've been dating this dude for a couple years and i'm still in college you said no and guess what but maybe keeping it secret kept them from getting married. You know what I mean? Too young an age. But he also wants to do things. He's got a lot of ambition, this guy. Really? He doesn't seem to have, yeah, didn't do well in school or anything like that,

but he's got a lot of ambition and a lot of drive to do things. He joins the Naval Reserve when he turns 18. He wanted to go to Annapolis and go to the Naval Academy. That was his goal even though he flunked 11th grade which is the all of the military academies are really difficult to get into academically they're all i imagine so yeah really really like annapolis and west point i know especially are the you can go to boot camp cream of the crop sure it doesn't matter we want the smart ones at the fucking academies yeah it's like really really smart people that go there so he wanted to go there but he spent an entire year prepping for his sats

to try to get in because that was his grades weren't it but if he could nail the sats and was in the naval reserves then he could probably get in but after a year a whole year of prepping he still did like shit on the SATs. Wow. Not good. I'm told those are really hard, though. Well, yeah, that's why you spend a year prepping for them. He was told the same thing. Yeah, they're real hard. He's like, I better start prepping now, and it wasn't enough. So he does not get accepted into Annapolis here to go into the Naval Academy.

He instead gets into Villanova oh which at the time wasn't a real they everybody said it wasn't a real rigorous academic type of you could kind of just walk on in there so yeah um he was though he was in college he was in the navy rotc program and so he hoped that that would make maria's father think he was okay look i'm in college i'm an rotc guy look at i'm in college. I'm an ROTC guy. Look, I'm in my uniform with homework under my arm. You can't get more upstanding than me. Right.

You love the fucking drums. Get involved in the marching band for the military. Yeah, Dr. Pazinski didn't like this shit, though. He wasn't into it. He didn't like Rob or Rob's family. This is the thing. It's not about Rob. Rob comes from trash stock as well.

rob's family this is the thing it's not about rob rob comes from trash stock as well yeah he wants the daughter probably to marry whoever somebody from his country club's kid or something it's you know have a debutante ball or some shit i don't know but not let's yeah let's combine our powers yeah not marry mr flunk out of the 11th grade you know out of work alcoholic father fucking over here you know like that's just less hates him i don't want him yeah and that's there was a lot of that back then too i mean class was a big issue back then and this was like they're just not in our class was his view on it he thought that um he thought that they would try to look better than they were basically try to act like they were in a higher status than they were in society turd yeah polish in a turd and also uh that they were in a higher status than they were in society. Polished and a turd. Yeah, polished and a turd. And also that they also spent their money badly and they weren't good at saving. Confessments, yeah.

So, yeah, that's not what he wants for his daughter. Not at all here. But Maria wants to marry Rob. She likes him, yeah. Loves better. He barely graduates from Villanova. He had a 1.9 grade point average. You need a 2 to graduate, but he's really good at talking people into shit,

and he convinced one of his professors to change his D to a C, and then it bumped his grade point average to 2.0, which allowed him to graduate. So he graduated in June of 1963. Okay. He goes to Pensacola florida does some navy flight training school and um yeah completes that course and was accepted for helicopter training in november of 63 but he's squeaking by and everything and everything we're gonna put that guy behind the controls of a barely fucking airborne vehicle maybe he's really good at that

though maybe he's not good at that's what i'm saying maybe he's really good at that though maybe he's not good at that's what i'm saying maybe he's not good at that but maybe he's good at practical things maybe i don't like the word maybe yeah well i mean fuck you the guy who fixes these jet planes they're not usually they don't do great in school but they have a mechanical aptitude for this and that's so might be about aptitude here plus it's november of 63 and we're going to be going through quite a few of these guys in helicopters. We're going to need one or two. We're going to be using a bunch of them, so get whoever is willing to go up there, get them up there.

Oh, boy. So December 28, 1963, about a month after he does his helicopter stuff here, he and Maria are married. Married here. Against her parents' wishes or what? yeah they're not they're not thrilled about this at all they're not like we won't you know we disown you but they're not thrilled about the in the pictures there's some scowls absolutely here um so he the first year he's stationed in florida then he's stationed overseas for a while okay so she'll come with him at one point for a little bit. Then he's assigned to the Naval Air Station

in Lakehurst, New Jersey. So he liked Tom's River. It's the first time he'd ever been there. He said it's close to the beach and the base. And the houses were cheap at the time so he said, let's settle here. Let's do it. And Philadelphia is also within driving distance

where her family lives. Yeah. Close enough where she could visit, but not close enough where they're going to break balls and show up unannounced. You know what I mean? One of those things. Yeah. A year after they're married, they have their first son named Chris. Yeah.

Right away. Rob here, once he's out of the Navy, he didn't do Vietnam, so I don't know what happened with his naval experience, but he becomes an insurance salesman, which is insurance salesman is kind of one of those jobs where it doesn't really. Can you sell people shit or not? Sales are. It's not a big doesn't matter what your background is. If you can sell, you can sell. And the product doesn't matter. You don't have to be specific in that.

It's whether or not you can fill the need of what you create the need and fill the need. That's sales. Are you willing to batter people into submission until they give you what you want? Are you willing to do that or not? And nobody loves insurance. You get into it. They're bored by it. It's not like you're gonna i got this

thing it's the coolest thing ever well let me see it it's none of that it's insurance oh yeah yeah you pay a little bit every month right and you get this piece of paper and then and then and then when you die yeah other people will get money so it's fun it's exciting right you'll never see anything for it you will never get to enjoy anything. There's this other piece that I sell that the state makes you carry this on your vehicle. You have to. So I can get it for you at a cheap price. So, I mean, you know, you can get it from literally any company here. Anybody at all.

I think Shaq is involved in it at some point. I think he's on a commercial. You can get it from Shaq. Really, anybody has insurance for you. Cartoon generals generals it's fine cavemen lizards shack cartoon generals it doesn't fucking matter someone will sell you brunettes with huge tits it's weird it Strangely attractive brunettes with, yeah, in white outfits. Giant jugs.

You know, all that stuff. So that's what he does. Now, the thing is, he's great at selling insurance. Really? He found his niche. That's what I mean. It's about aptitude. Duck the water, yeah.

If you can get a professor to bump your grade up, you might be able to sell insurance. Great point. Because there's no benefit to that professor. At least this, you can sell a benefit as far as, don't you worry about your kids? Dollars to Donuts, he sold that by saying, you never have to see me again. I swear to God, never have to see me again. I'll be out of your hair forever. Forever.

Forever. So he sells more than $ million dollars worth in his first year holy shit making him one of the company's top 50 salesmen in the entire united states in his first year top 50 top 50 that's how you get that's a guy who can get a professor to change a grade and a high class broad to marry him and he may keep saying broad because it's the 50s and 60s. He may have talked the military out of sending him to Vietnam. Maybe. Maybe.

He's like, listen, guys. Listen, guys. I think I'd be better served here. Let me tell you why. I could train the guys that it will go. I'll do that. Let me tell you why. And also, too, what's going to happen if something happens to you?

Your kid's taken care of? Let me show you what I have in terms of the life of a term policy i think you're going to enjoy this don't you want one of the best to stick around here and because if because if not then you'd kill all the best suppose the north invades new jersey then what happens you got no helicopters to fight them off training shit that's see i'll stay here yeah i'll make sure everything's cool best of luck guys all right you guys no call me call me let me know what's going on send letters so um the next year he does the same thing wow so they he's making good money this is a commission's business so he's doing great the family moves up into a larger house three blocks away. And they have another son named John in 1971.

They also end up with a Robert Jr., by the way. Okay. That was never a good sign. But they don't name their first son Robert Jr., I don't think. No, we go with Chris. I think they named the second one, which is interesting here. So that's 1971. Their third son is born.

They're making money money they move to a bigger house in 1973 they have a brand new house that they design had designed and built they hire an architect i mean he's got a what is the commission for for it's got to be 10 right i don't know it's i know he makes he's making over a hundred thousand dollars a year so i don't know it's probably not 10 it's not back then yeah if he's making over $100,000 a year, so I don't know. It's probably not 10%. Back then? Yeah. If he's selling 2 million.

Back in the early 80s, I know he's making that much. Okay. That's not bad. Yeah, it's got to be 5% then, right? It's something like that. Who knows? That's huge money, though. I'm sure there's bonuses and sales.

I don't know how the insurance salesman could be finding more money. Well, you're selling multi-million, and you're getting $100,000. Just math alone, it's 5%. it's something yeah yeah there'll be some kind of money five percent's a hundred grand so um that's how they're doing here they're building a house and doing everything and uh they're acting they're they're like we have we've arrived you know what i mean what's up with that polish daddy? Yeah. How do you like that shit? And people look up to them. They go, look at them doing great. They joined the country club here.

Wow. That's right. They play tennis. Wow. Go to church on Sundays. Rob has a red convertible Cadillac that they drive to church in. Yeah, that's very East Coast. I'm doing well.

It's convertible, though. Take the top off that Caddy and let's hop the kids in. We're going to church. What do you say, Padre? I don't want everybody to see my baby and my children. I love it. Let's do this. So they would do that.

They all dressed very fancily. The boys had their suits and ties on, going to church every day. And he would call his wife the Beautiful Maria. He would introduce her like she was a wrestling manager the beautiful maria accompanied to the ring by the beautiful maria so they're doing well in tom's river they're successful they're um people do say he is he's known as both pushy and you know doesn't doesn't let anybody stand in his way. He'll run you over to get a sale for insurance

and shit like that. But that's how he's got to be. He's a salesman. That's how his kids eat. That's exactly right. So he joins the country club and he's doing so well for himself. By 1984, they had an in-ground pool built in their custom house.

They have a timeshare in Florida. Oh, my. That is 80s New Jersey affluence right there. I could go down to Florida two weeks a year. I could go down. Not have to pay a fucking dime. You know why? Thought ahead.

Timeshare. How about that? An insurance guy got taken by a timeshare guy. Amazing. Isn't that wild? Isn't that crazy? Timeshares were very popular in the early 80s. People actually liked them.

They actually enjoyed it. They didn't know that it was just such a load of shit. It's a load of shit. So I think there's a tax benefit to some of it, though. There's got to be. I don't fucking know. It's a second home, so you can probably write off a giant chunk of it. Even if it's too, yeah, because of the interest or the mortgage. I don't fucking know. It's a second home, so you can probably write off a giant chunk of it. Even if it's too, yeah, because of the interest or the mortgage.

I don't know. And if you own a business, you can take people down there and write that off as a business trip. There's a lot of things you can do. You could give away nights to clients if you wanted, things like that. Yeah, you could do that. So they do that. They also have a big boat that he buys as well and a Cadillac. also have a big boat that he buys okay as well and a cadillac and uh maria is closet full of all designer expensive clothes they're tony and carmella here except yep what he's doing is

legitimate that's all very legal yeah it's very legal it's you know it's shitty but it's legal so it's not easy to do nope they have three sons robert jr who they call robbie chris and john are their three sons robbie and chris have their own cars by the early 80s here a yellow mustang and a jeep robbie has the mustang chris has the jeep john in 1984 is only 13 years old but he rob had promised him a porsche when he reaches driving age a A Porsche. What is happening? A Porsche. Wow, that is remarkable. Mustang, Jeep, Porsche.

All right. Wow. Holy shit, I would hate these kids in high school. Yes. I would hate these fucking kids. Hate them. Oh, my God. She is, Maria is very good. She's a mother, and she does well with the kids

and raises them wonderfully. And they seem like the Christmas card perfect family. Yeah, doing very well. Doing very well for themselves. The only thing that's – in 1984, Robbie gets suspended. Robbie goes to Villanova, follows in his father's footsteps. Yeah. And during his freshman year, he was hanging out with a bunch

of kids and drinking yeah and an ra there um somebody's door got kicked down as a prank yeah because that's what dipshit kids do when they're drunk yeah especially rich dummies yeah yes they had no consequences so they told him that he would have to start his sophomore year at a different school and then reapply for january they kicked him out of school basically oh shit so rob is furious at his son's behavior embarrassing me at my alma mater is what he's saying here yeah so he said that um you're making the whole family look bad he He had promised to purchase him a brand-new Mustang convertible after his freshman year, but now he won't do it. Not going to happen.

Not going to give it to you. Now you got kicked out. Why the hell am I going to give you a Mustang convertible for? You blew it. Yeah, you blew it. Those 80s Mustangs weren't any good anyway. You don't want that, Rob. Those are garbage.

I mean, the Fox bodies, once they get to the early 90s, they're okay. They're like the 91s, 92s. Those 85s look like shit. They look like an Escort. You don't want that. Yeah, the Escort, once they get to the early 90s, are okay. They're like the 91s, 92s. But those 85s look like shit. They look like an Escort. You don't want that. Yeah, the Escort's not a good car either. Not great, no.

And so Rob just treats Robbie like shit, and he's very mad at him the whole summer of 84. Just holds a months-long grudge, whole season-long grudge for him. You really fucked my whole life up. You really pissed me off. And that's crazy because it's not – mean i get under being disappointed but to take it out on him where it's like he's he's got him he's already got consequences for this i'm gonna wake up and look deal with you too and he didn't do anything that that's one of those things that if you found out that he did that and didn't get caught you'd laugh along with him right yeah if

there were no consequences yeah that's if nobody got caught and he was like the next year he was like one night when we were freshmen me a bunch of my friends we got drunk and we kicked this guy's door down he didn't know what the hell happened and then you know they were all laughing he'd be laughing along with him but if he gets caught oh god it's a nightmare but kids 18 year olds that are away from home for the first time, get drunk and do dumb shit. Oh, boy. Freshmen. I bet there's sophomore that can't keep it up.

I would imagine. They do the same shit. Yeah. Yeah. Too much whiskey. That's why they can't keep it up. That's the problem. Yeah.

And the juniors and seniors, the only ones that do that are the ones that are on the football team. Yeah. So this all leads up to this whole summer. Think about it. New cars floating around and kids swimming in in-ground pools and the beach is nearby and they're what a what a life you know what a time even with dad mad at you not a bad life thursday september 6th 1984 comes around normal day everything's you know

normal chris isn't there chris is away at lehigh university so he's not there uh he's just started his freshman year just now september 6th rob was working and john went to school and robby here rob the father goes to go he's working john goes to school that day and robby didn't he didn't have classes or uh work that day so he slept in he's hanging out uh maria mom rob dad and robby had lunch while on on rob's break from work on rob's you know they had a lunch break then rob went back to work uh he and maria were planning on doing what they do pretty much uh once a week or once every other week now they have kind of a steady place they go yeah they go for dinner and then at blackjack then they play blackjack at harris

marina in atlantic city oh they're running up to ac yeah they do dinner and gambling thursday that's lovely thursday night nice they're living a fine life these people really true going on the night that nobody's there he's beautiful 45 he's fucking yeah that's his that's not a bad life so he's a really big gambler rob he loves to gamble yeah he's gotten into it he named his boat double down jesus that's how much he likes blackjack he named his fucking boat double not just gambling but a specific game he's gonna have a second boat called split those aces pretty soon it It's going to be very interesting. So he also organized casino bus tours here at the same time.

Yeah, he would do that. And he, yeah, he would do all that kind of shit. What is a casino bus tour where you just get on a bus and go to different, like a pub crawl, but a casino crawl? Get a bunch of people going yeah like a bunch of people are going to go to atlantic city and you know he rents the bus for 500 bucks and then he makes 200 profit taking yeah but that seems uh that seems fucking conflicting to to gambling where like if you get on a fucking streak now it's time to go over to a nut fuck all of you i'll meet you there that's what it is though that's how it is yeah my my racist nan used to do that she'd go to atlantic city on like a bus

yeah like all the other old ladies they'd all go on a bus and go to atlantic city for the day but what if you're doing great what if your fucking machine's hitting and you're not you don't want to walk when you get a room these those they those were old ladies they're going home well you don't know maybe the fucking manager is going to come over here and give me a breakfast and a room. We don't know. If you're doing that, well, get a taxi home. But get your own bus. But, you know, come 6 o'clock, the bus is leaving.

Get on. Yeah, good point. Let's go, Edna. Get off the blackjack table. This streak has to end at some point, I guess. Yeah, yeah. So Maria isn't quite as into casinos as he is. But she does like going out and doing that.

They dress up when they go out. All right. And they all know them at the casino. Rob loses a lot of money there, so they kiss their ass and that sort of thing here. So they leave home about 6.15 p.m. They have 8.30 dinner reservations. And Robbie saw them on the way out out told his mother she looked very nice gave her a kiss goodbye and that was that so robbie hangs out the rest of the night watches a little

tv calls his girlfriend hell yeah you know that kind of shit goes to bed around midnight yeah he's living it having a decent night so there's a guy named john heckler uh h-E-C-H-L-E-R. He left Harris Casino in Atlantic City on September 6th, late night September 6th, almost in the 11s, 1130 or so at night. He spent the night at the Blackjack Tables, losing some money, I'm sure. He said he got on the Garden State Parkway, looked pretty empty. He was driving home. He went through a toll plaza and noticed in his rearview mirror there was a car coming up super fast with high beams blazing on. As the car passed by, he recognized the car.

It was a 1980 Cadillac Eldorado. And he said he recognized the car because he had seen it at Harrah's, and he recognized the people in it from Harrah's. I know those people. So the car just zoomed by, though, and he said after a few seconds, the taillights disappeared. I mean, it was fucking. Wow, really going. Yeah, they're going 90, and he's just going speed limit.

So he said that once he couldn't see the taillights, he didn't know if it was going so fast that it was ahead of him or if maybe the vehicle ran off the roadway. That fast? Maybe somebody fell asleep at the wheel and maybe that's why they were going fast and that sort of thing. So he catches up to the car eventually because it stopped. He sees that it had gone off into what was the Oyster Creek picnic area at the time. gone off into what was the oyster creek picnic area at the time and this guy says the car was stopped headlights turned off taillights on which to me means a foot on the foot on the brake as you do when you park somewhere you turn the headlights off you'll keep your foot on the brake for 20

fucking minutes before you go oh shit what am i doing what am i doing yeah why do i have my foot on the brake it's one of those weird things so that's what he sees um he didn't get out of his car and offer any help or anything he just saw they were there and then went home so what a guy nice guy there i know those people yeah we were there fuck them i'm going that guy that was sitting next to me sure was gotta go they must be fucking in trouble oh well doesn't even say you guys need me to call somebody for you because there's no cell phones in 1984 you want me to get to my house and make a phone call? Hope you find what you need.

See you around. That looks like a pain in the ass. He's going to help ask me to do something. I don't want to do that. I'm drunk. I can't have the cops stopping. Yeah. So a little while later, Bob Gladstone, let's enter him into the picture, better known as Lieutenant Bob Gladstone.

Oh, okay. Of the Ocean County Prosecutors, of the Homicide Department here. Now, he had been sleeping, it's two in the morning at this point, when he gets a phone call, 2.15 a.m., and they say a woman's been shot to death in a picnic area off the Garden State Parkway.

Oh, my God. That's the call. So he gets there in less than an hour. He finds a white Cadillac with 42-year-old Maria Marshall inside. Uh-huh. Okay. Oh, my God. and realized that she's not asleep so they said that uh they he said well was she alone what the fuck here basically they said no no her husband was with her he is uh has been taken to the hospital he was bleeding from the head so they took him to the hospital so yeah it was very dark there there's no lights this is a picnic area yeah for daytime right it closes at dusk so we don't put our dawn what is dusk dusk yeah yeah

yeah closes at dawn party all night at the picnic area woo we don't bother with with lights when when it's closed at dawn no when god damn it i try that one more time those two have always confused me i don't want to talk about it the movie from dust till dawn that i tried to remember that he still didn't understand which was which he was like i don't know what's going on in this movie why are the vampires so mad it's the daytime it's day what is it what dust fuck every time and every time i try to remember it that way i i try too late in the thought and then i go wait which one is which yeah you need to go ahead of yourself like when you're when you're thinking is it is it i or me here yeah that's one of those so where am i just

i just skip using those words when the sun goes down let's go it's sundown here it's also as shitty it's also yeah it's also shitty so welcome to the small town of chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper in this new thriller available exclusively on wondery plus religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro,

who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar.

Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting

all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. This is very dark, like we said. Nothing there.

There's tables, trash cans. They said there's a lot of not really shielded from the roadway. You can see cars going by as they go by, but there's tables trash cans um they said there's a lot of not really shielded from the roadway you can see cars going by as they go by but there's also a lot of trees and that kind of muffles the sound of the cars so right and somebody might not have heard anything they said that it looks like the cadillac pulled in and stopped about a hundred feet from the end of the asphalt blacktop where the where there was an uh cinder block restroom structure with no lights on in it also again you're not supposed to be here after dark um so they said the right rear tire of the vehicle was completely flat oh they're pulled in pretty far so they said a state

police officer tells this lieutenant gladstone all the info that he could get here. Rob, they talked to Rob. They had talked to Rob before he went to the hospital. They said Rob said he and Maria left Atlantic City around midnight. They had some dinner and some gambling. They passed by the toll plaza, and he felt some vibration in the car and thought it might be the tire, so he pulled into the picnic area to check the tire. That's what he said.

He said so when he was looking at the back tire, he said a dark sedan pulled into the area and stopped by his car about 30 feet away. He said he ignored the vehicle because he didn't see anybody exit from it. He thought somebody else maybe stopped to take a leak or something because it's the only time you can pull off right there. So, you know, it's a rest stop. What the fuck? Somebody might be resting. I know I'm resting i'm resting as joe pesci would say he said that uh he went to maria's door and she opened it and he asked her would you please pop the trunk in the glove compartment there that's all those cars are so he said i want to fix the tire he said at that point

um according to rob as he turned away from mar, something hit him on the head and knocked him out. Okay. He was cracked in the head with something, lights out. That's all he remembered, is turning away from Maria. He said he has no idea how long he was unconscious for, but when he came to, he saw Maria had been shot. Okay. So he said he couldn't wake her up. He tried to rouse her so he ran out into the roadway

and flagged down oh tried to flag down help in the middle of the garden state parkway which at two in the morning that'll stand out no someone will notice that so especially a dude with fucking just blood running blood running hey help me i think you'd go around him jesus christ i don't think so so he also said that he had over $2,000 in cash in his pants pocket from the casino. Still has it? No, that's missing. Okay. So he got robbed, too.

So he got cracked and robbed, and they stole his wife. They shot his wife on top of him. Wow, what a terrible, terrible night. Yeah, sounds like a terrible night. I don't care how you did at the tables. That's a bad night, you know? Awful, awful, awful night. Yeah. a terrible night i don't care how you did at the tables that's a bad night you know awful awful yeah so lieutenant gladstone was interested in this because he said as he looked around

everywhere and this is just his immediate yeah you're looking over a crime scene and he's just trying you know as one does not us but you know people with experience and things they do yeah as they do he's looking it over and his first initial response is, he said, it's really dark here. How the hell did anybody expect they were going to change a tire? Great point. Yeah, because there's no, like, cell phone flashlights. I mean, that sort of thing. You've got to keep track of fucking six bolts.

And lug nuts. Yeah, lug nuts. And Jesus Christ. Hub caps, Cadillac hub cap and all that shit. But they said this would have been really hard to do that. This is ridiculous. He said, why did Rob continue on past the toll boots, which are busy and lit up and a good place to either get help or to see your tire.

And where cars are stopping. That's the other thing. Yeah. And instead choose a picnic area with a sign that says right in the beginning closed after dark. Right. So they're like, that's really weird. But now he says that Rob told the cop that he didn't hear the vibration until

after the toll booth. So that explains that. They said, well, it's about three more miles down to a Roy Rogers restaurant at the next exit. Why not go down there? Why, why would you do that? Also, why would somebody hit Rob in the head but shoot maria

twice in the back mind you yeah why are you just hitting the the threat to yes exactly and then destroying her that doesn't make a lot of sense uh there so that's that's an interesting thing they said the tire seemed to have a clean cut in it with no signs of having been driven on flat or low on or while it was low on air as we remember from our large headed friend in oklahoma yeah the sidewall gets fucked up oklahoma you you don't know that a tire is going flat you don't predict it and go it's gonna go flat i better pull. You stop and it goes and goes to the ground. Yeah, I knew it. It's flat.

You feel it. What is that? Is that what the fuck is a road? Shitty is that shit? Oh, God damn it. And then you have to pull over and you drive a half mile on it no matter what. Ah, fuck. God damn it. A friend of mine just gave me a ride home.

And while we were driving, he was like, what is that fucking noise? Five miles, James, on a flat tire. Neither of us recognized it. That's what I mean. That's how it goes. That's what you do. So you're going to see it's going to be all mangled, wrapped around shit. So they said this, though.

No, anything like that. And while her handbag is missing. So there is that. But she's still wearing a gold necklace, gold bracelet, three rings, including a diamond on her finger. Yeah, you don't kill people, take a couple grand and some things, and then be like, I came up enough. That's good enough for me. Right. If they've got more, you take all of it.

If you're in for a murder, you're taking everything, I would think. Yeah. Yeah. So at the hospital, Rob gets five stitches, and then he's discharged. So five stitches on his head she got shot how many times twice in the back he gets five stitches yes which is not a lot of stitches no a little a little cut that's a very small cut yeah yeah he was on his way out of the hospital when a homicide sergeant danny o''Brien bumps into him here.

And it happened on a state parkway. So because this happened on a state parkway, this O'Brien is not allowed to take a statement from Rob without having a state trooper present. Because that's their jurisdiction. State trooper jurisdiction. Fascinating. So, yeah, that was a thing. What he told Marshall, he said Rob said he was headed home to, quote, break the tragic news to his sons. Okay.

Yeah. So he said, well, hold on. Before you do that, hang back a minute until cops get here because we'd like to talk to you. There's a trooper coming and we'd like to talk to you. So they said, this cop said that he was wearing a blue blazer and tan slacks. He didn't look seriously injured or anything. He said, looked like he was about to go to the yacht club. Which, I mean, he was still going out to dinner clothes.

What's he supposed to do, change into a more somber ensemble? Before you put these stitches in me, I need to get the visiting the hospital gear. Yeah, is that a thing? Is there a sad my wife got shot outfit around here i can put on so do you guys have my sweatpants and stuff yeah that's being a little picky i think they're looking at them all dressed up well yeah he came from somewhere jesus christ he doesn't just have sweatpants and a shirt with a worn-out collar in the truck. With holes in his pants and shit. Hey, guys. Does this look sad now?

He looks reasonably sad, I guess. So now the autopsy here, while they're talking to him here, an autopsy's being conducted on her. She's been shot twice in the back at very close range with a.45 caliber, too. Jesus Christ! That is a big old gun to shoot somebody close range at man oh my god the two entrance wounds were so close that a 50 cent piece could cover both of them that's how both of them covered the holes that's how but not on

the front i guarantee that that is a big hole in the front. One bullet exited the front of her chest. The other threw her left breast. Uh-huh. So tore up her way out. Tore her up. Yeah, that leaves a big one on the way out. Oh, boy. The trajectory of the bullets, as well as a.45 caliber bullet found lodged in her left forearm as well.

There's a third bullet here. Indicated that she'd been lying down with her left arm under her oh no that's the second bullet when she was shot so her cause yeah came through and god damn it her cause of death had been massive hemorrhaging caused by her left lung and the main artery of her chest was lacerated so just destroyed her inside so it was they said it would have been instant death i mean those two things together boom done they said whoever shot her obviously wanted to kill her this wasn't to well not trying to wing her or anything here so this isn't warning her of what's to come yeah and the lieutenant said this to me looks like an execution this looks like somebody pissed somebody off and they you know this isn't a normal killing here

so by 5 a.m here comes uh rob going into his son's bedroom, going in to tell Robbie, flick that he's got blood on his shirt and he's crying, and he says, Mom's dead. Here, he wakes up Robbie and John, tells them their mother's not ever going to come home. She's dead. And by the way, I got cops with me here, so put some pants on. Rob offers the cops drinks. They say no thank you, and he's taken to a precinct for an interview. He said the same thing he said earlier, but now he adds that he said the car had not seemed right almost immediately after leaving Atlantic City, and it had only gotten worse the farther north they traveled.

So that's what it was. So they answered the questions. He's been married for 20 years. They had no problems. You know, they had some financial issues from time to time, but he said that was due to Maria's excessive spending and living beyond their means. They tried marriage counseling as a result of that at one point. At one point he said, quote, to be perfectly candid,

he said that Maria had been the last couple of years suspecting me of cheating on her, and I never cheated on her, though. That's crazy. But she suspects it, though, so that's out there. He said, they said, did you kill your wife or have anything to do with it? He said, no, absolutely not.

I love my wife. No, of course not. Jesus, what are you kidding me? Christ's sake, what are you kidding me christ's sake what are you nuts over here yeah they said that um they were doing all of that they said on the before the interview started while in the squad room and in the car on the way back to his house rob fell asleep both times which is number one at one point i see this both ways they always and it's a it's a,

it's a kind of a cliched thing. If you get three suspects, put them in the boxes and whoever falls asleep is your murder. Yeah. The homicide cops really do that. That's a fact. They want to see if you fall asleep, that's they're like,

well, he's checking that box. That's definitely, that's the first guy I'm talking to. The one who fell asleep because innocent people don't feel comfortable being in a fucking interrogation room and they pace back and forth because they're like why am i in here what the fuck's going on they knock on the door they look through the window guilty people tend to go well i'm caught and they relax and go to sleep this is where i'll be

forever at the same time he's an insurance salesman that's probably been up since six o'clock the previous morning yeah yeah and dude he's 45 years old so he's gonna fall if everybody stops talking for 20 minutes i'll fall asleep that's what i mean i will i will nap while watching a show i was waiting to watch you know what i'm saying like i will fall yeah i fall asleep with the most anticipation ever yeah like this is gonna be i can't wait to watch this. We'll fall asleep sometimes in the green room when a thousand plus people came to see us and we're super jacked to do a show. We're just like, what? Oh, we got to go now? Okay.

Yeah. All right, let's do this. So I can understand him falling asleep and that doesn't to me make him guilty. But shortly after 9 a.m. here that Friday. So this is we're going to do a timeline here. That was 6 a.m. 7. Now it after 9 a.m. here that Friday. So this is we're going to do a timeline here. That was 6 a.m., 7. Now it's 9 a.m. on September 7th here. Gladstone, the lieutenant, gets a call from a former state policeman who is now a private detective.

Okay. He turned retired cop. A lot of them do private detectives. I love it. Yeah, it's easy money. I used to be a cop. People think that you know what you're doing. They love it. Yeah, it's easy money. I used to be a cop. People think that you know what you're doing. I know shit.

Yeah, I know some shit. And also that says I know a lot of cops, so I can get information on people that other people can't get. I can get reports and blah, blah, blah. This guy's name is Fred Grasso. Now, Grasso tells Gladstone that Maria had been a client of his in the private investigation deal and that she was the nicest lady anyone could ever hope to meet. Sweet lady. Why was she his client?

Well, he said he was first contacted by her in December of 1983 following suspicions that Rob was having an affair. Right. There you go. He said they met in the parking lot of the superfood town because she did not want to be seen going into his office. Okay. Because everyone knows who they are because it's a small town, regardless of how many people are here. That's the thing. If you care about people seeing you go into a place, you live in a small town.

That's a small town, yeah. Whatever the amount of people is, that's a small town. It doesn't matter. That's what a small town is. Yeah, nobody will ever see me going in anywhere. Anywhere. In Phoenix, I never once thought, what if someone sees me going in here? No, never.

Never even thought about it. So, yeah, they did all of that. They met there. She gave him a $100 bill in the parking lot that day, saying that she needed to pay him in advance due to, the way she put it, the way our money's disappearing. Oh. I don't know if I'll have money next week to give you. Now, Grosso said he thought Rob was kind of a piece of shit. He considered him a schmuck, which I think is a great.

It's very, very. Yeah, a guy named fucking Fred Grosso. I thought he was a bit of a schmuck, if I'm going to be honest with you. He's a bit of a schmuck. Very New Jersey. They said to anybody that maria would have had as have as an enemy and he said only one i could think of could possibly be would be rob that's it the only person that she's ever had a crossword with is schmucky over here so yeah yep so not long after talking to grasso gladstone gets another phone call from an attorney people are are just, it's 9 a.m. This is, they didn't start the murder thing until 2 a.m.

In the first seven hours, he's getting people calling with information. This is great. So for him, it's terrific. So yeah, another lady or another person calls here. This attorney named Michael DeWitt. DeWitt had gotten Maria as a client in December of 83 from another attorney, Tom Kenyon, who also referred Maria to Fred Grasso. When Maria told Kenyon her suspicions of Rob cheating on her and who she thought he was cheating with, this Kenyon, he said he knew

the other woman. He said, so that's why he passed her along. He said, that might be a conflict of interest for me because I know this woman. So I'll find you, help you find another council. That's how he got, she got to wit and the other one. So DeWitt said that Maria's problems weren't just that Rob was unfaithful, but he was having an affair by the way,

according to the private investigator. Uh, the affair was with the local high school's vice principal, by the way, Oh shit. Take me in your office and give me detention, honey. That's what he said. They were also, as a matter of fact,

not as affluent as they seem and are in deep financial distress as well. Deep financial distress. That's the way he put it, this attorney. He said that Rob had sent the family into financial ruin and attempted to fix or disguise the problems by getting a $100,000 home equity loan to which he had signed Maria's name on the loan application without her knowing it. Without telling her. Without telling her, yeah.

So DeWitt had prepared a divorce filing for Maria and a bankruptcy petition as well to get her out from under his debt and all that kind of shit. and a bankruptcy petition as well to get her out of, out from under his debt and all that kind of shit. But Maria didn't want to, she wanted to save the marriage. What? Much like, much like Rob's mother.

Right. His mom. That's why people look for people like they're, you know what I'm saying? That's she'll think I'm a piece of shit, but stay by me is what he thought. That's what he found. He found a woman nice enough to put up with his horseshit. So,

um, she, at that point became seriously concerned that her husband was involved in criminal activities as well all the way through the summer of 84 including uh using and selling cocaine she thought he was doing possibly jesus that's a big step up from selling insurance but okay she she thinks her husband is in a cocaine ring, cheating on her, spending all the money. She thinks she's married to one of the worst men on the planet. She thinks she's Carmela Soprano right now.

Yeah, she does. Yep. And she said she thought he was falling into the underworld of the Atlantic City casino scene. Wow. Yep. So then that happened. Then DeWitt had once again prepared another divorce filing for her in July of 84. Just keep one prepared, I would say, for this one.

Keep one on deck. This included the name of Saran, like Sarah Ann, except with just one A. S-A-R-A-N-N. Saran. Oh, okay. Saran. Saran rap with two n's exactly saran kraushar kraushar k-r-a-u-s-h-a-a-r kraushar is that the lady from the school that's the that's yes that is the pinelands regional high school vice principal here that's the girl that he's banging that's the that's the lady he's having a little affair with here so this lawyer prepared a notice um which would place a lien on the family home

keeping rob from using it as an asset to borrow more money which is what you have to do papers were ready to go on july 26th but maria said nope hold up don't pull the trigger not quite yet not quite yet why because they were going on vacation on the 27th, the next day. It'll ruin the vacation if I bring this up. She said, maybe this vacation, literally, she said, well, maybe this will solve it. Maybe she hoped to get it all resolved privately and get him to admit to everything and then go to counseling or whatever the fuck. So he'll go down on me and realize that I'm better than. Yes.

And then go to counseling or whatever the fuck. Maybe he'll go down on me and realize that I'm better than him. Yes. Maybe we'll have sex by the beach and feel like young people again. Fix it all. Fix it all, man. He won't want to bang any vice principals when I'm done with him. So DeWitt had seen her again in mid-August when she stopped by his office to pay her bill then. So 3.30 p.m. that day.

Wow. So they had a busy morning talking to lawyers and investigators 3 30 p.m saran kraushar here um she is brought in at the end of the school day that's why it's 3 30 they waited till yeah they bring her in she demanded two lawyers before she would speak to the detectives two lawyers two lawyers i got two i'm thinking of not just one lawyer two lawyers before she would speak to the detectives. Two lawyers? Two lawyers. I got two I'm thinking of. Not just one lawyer, two lawyers. They're going to confer. Talk to me.

I'll talk back to them. It'll take a while. Oh, my God. So there was two detectives. One, she was advised of her rights and she's not under arrest. Anything she said is voluntary. Then she said, okay, fine. Yeah, all right.

If you're not accusing me of it. Because she was like, oh, shit. Guy on fucking's wife just got killed. All right. If you're not accusing me of it, because she was like, oh, shit, guy I'm fucking's wife just got killed. Two lawyers. Two lawyers, which is smart, I think, at that point. Not bad. And they said, no, we don't think you did it. And she was like, all right, then.

Fine. Yeah. We started fucking in the summer of 83. Been over a year. Yeah. Yeah. She said that Rob was unhappy in his marriage and told her that Maria was possessive and spent all the money. Yep.

That's marriage. I mean, both people would say that about both people in a bad marriage. He's possessive. She's possessive. This one, you know, it's already not going well. And she might be possessive because she knows he's having an affair, too. That's also when you're positive through investigative means that someone's having an affair you might start to be suspicious of them karen looks uh possessive by screaming you're nothing but a whore but yeah

all she's trying to do is keep her own life together that's the thing that's the thing um so she said that uh yeah he's unhappy and all that. She herself, by the way, was not happy with her husband. Oh, my God. Let's get this more complicated. Dirty. I like it. Yeah. She said that she and Rob said they decided they were going to leave their respective spouses.

Yeah. They had rented a beach house in Manahawken, as well as they have a joint safety deposit box and just signed papers for a joint checking account. You two. You are so deep in this. Deep, deep. They were so deep. They did paperwork. This was planned. Financially deep.

Yes. When you tie your finances together, that's a next level. You're both still married. You can't do that yet finances together, that's a next level. You're both still married. You can't do that yet. Yeah, that's crazy. But that happens a lot in these stories. How many stories have we done where there's dudes still married and have joint checking accounts with some other lady? It's crazy.

They also had a downtown post office box. That was where they would leave each other letters and tapes declaring their love for each other in their post office box. Wow. Yep. One would come pick it up. Oh, good. He left me a tape. Wow.

Yep. And the week following Maria's death here, that's when we'll find out they pretty quickly decide to announce to their families that they're going to be together. Okay. That's wild. The kids are not thrilled about that no i can't imagine yeah hey i've been fucking this lady while your mom before she died really but now that she's dead i'm gonna i'm gonna bang her like publicly you guys cool with that i did notice that there is an opening in the household and i've gone ahead and filled it uh just so everybody knows no shit it's all taken care of don't worry about spotting my bed all claimed so saran said that she had uh she had seen rob the day before about 4 p.m they met and one of their favorite parking spots and chatted for about an hour to an hour and a half. What a relationship. You got a favorite parking spot.

We sit in the parking lot and eat fucking fast food in our cars. Rob complained about having to go to Atlantic City because Maria insisted they go. So they parted. That's what he told her. They parted around 530. Saran had gone to a Tom's River gym to lead an exercise class, then gone to a birthday dinner for her father with a small group of friends. To lead an. Oh, boy.

She's a smoke show. Oh, yeah. I think she does. OK, this is I mean, this guy, his wife is pretty, too. It doesn't make any sense. None of this makes any sense. Rob had called her at school that Friday morning after he told his sons about the murder and to tell

her that Maria was dead. She said he broke down crying and saying he didn't want it to be like this. He told her the same story he told the first officer and, you know, I got hit in the head. Don't know what happened. She also remembered that Rob had been experiencing financial difficulties

and she was aware of his $100 dollar second mortgage on the house nicely told his mistress and not his wife who's actually financially responsible for that hundred grand what a nice move that is jesus christ so uh she's allowed to talk to her attorneys before for a few moments here and uh she added that before christmas 83 rob had told her that he that the insurance he had on maria would take care of his debts oh so that was 10 months ago she said that he wished maria wasn't around and asked her if she knew anyone who could quote take care of it oh boy his assistant principals at schools that screams, I, you know, a murder contract. Yeah.

Well connected in murder circles. Jesus Christ. You know, a 14 year old that could probably take care of this for me. So Saran told him that if you're serious, I don't want anything more to do with you. I don't want to fuck. That's what she tells the cops.

I don't want to fucking be with some guy who help him kill his wife. It's a little deeper than I want to get here. He was willing to murder so that we can fuck. is too much it's kind of sexy that we're both having affairs that's making me you know that's making my car seats moist when we sit in our parking spot but the rest of this is getting a little creepy so she said no she wouldn't do that um he did she and then she also uh provide also provided him with the name of someone she knew who had run-ins with the law that might be able to help him. If you do this, I don't want anything to do with you. But here's a guy I know.

It's a very mixed message. Here's the baddest dude I know. Yeah, here's a guy that gets arrested a lot. So on the same day, again, Friday, September 7th, this fucking Gladstone is having a busy day. again friday september 7th this fucking gladstone is having a busy day he gets a call from philip gerard who's an insurance agent that felt unsettled he said and concerned when he heard of maria marshall's murder really according to this guy on september the 3rd which is monday of this week yeah three days ago rob had contacted him and saying he wanted an insurance policy taken out on his wife in the amount of $100,000. Oh, like the second mortgage money?

Like the money he owes. He said he was in a big hurry to get the policy taken out and into effect to the point where he wanted the paperwork and medical examination done within 48 hours. Holy shit. You know, by Thursday. Yeah, you know, by the time i go to dinner yeah he's looking on amazon going well let's get shipped before i have to leave to go out of town shit it says it'll be here on the second but will it you know it'll be the next day you know it'll be the next day sitting on your porch you'll see you'll hear the your ring doorbell notification

here well you're simply airplane you're simply safe thing will go off and you'll go god damn it look at it sitting there. I need that jacket. I just landed here. So he said that he and his wife were leaving on a vacation at the end of the week, and it was imperative that the policy be enforced by then. So this guy arrived at the home on Thursday, September 6th, around noon, two hours before the medical examination was conducted. She had a medical examination conducted at 2 o'clock in the afternoon before she died. Oh, my God. So they said that they did all the paperwork as they were headed out to lunch with Rob.

Yeah. So at the memorial service, by the way, here, this is Monday, September 10th. By the way, this is over the objections of Maria's parents, who are super Catholic. Rob had her body cremated. Oh, you dick. As soon as the autopsy was over. Yeah. Which is suspicious at best.

Very suspicious, yeah. So, yeah, the memorial went on. There's about 150, 200 people that show up. And, you know, Rob goes from guest to guest and talks to people and, you know, all that kind of shit. Two days before the memorial, though, Saturday. Yeah. He sat his sons down, Robbie, Chris, John, and he says, we're going to have the memorial for your mother on Monday,

but someone I got to talk to you about, and that's Saran. You need to know about her. So this is a quote from Robbie. Quote, my dad told Chris and I about his affair with Saran that Saturday. I remember being really, really mad here. He said then the next week she came over. Chris left. He wouldn't stay when she was there.

But I stayed because I wanted her to feel uncomfortable. I wanted her to feel uncomfortable. wanted her to feel uncomfortable oh that's amazing yep i didn't want her walking around our house my mom's house and thinking things like hey i could get used to this it wasn't her house and i didn't want her to feel as though she was welcome fantastic i mean that's fair yeah fair i mean christ new mommy 48 hours later no i don't want it that's and he also warned his father that um some people are gonna think you're you know it's gonna look bad in police circles i would imagine yeah and um but his father said that listen that's gonna be normal people are gonna talk he said it's very common for the husband to be considered a suspect, especially if he was there. So no worries, though.

I'm not worried about it. Okay. So now Chris, the one who was away at school, he said the moment his father had come into his dorm room on Friday and told him that something had happened to his mother, he said he wondered if his mother had suffered, if she was afraid. Did she say anything? It looks like she was sleeping in the car, leaned over on the console, got shot in the back. That's what it looks like she was sleeping in the car leaned over on the console really shot in the back that's what it looks like yeah because the bullet went through and went to her arm which she had all right she had her hand up yeah so they think that's what happened to her so um they said that his father only had vague answers and that didn't help he said why didn't

my mother run away to get out of the onto the parkway try to get help if somebody was bum rushing them or why would she just lay there? What the hell's going on? He said that he wondered if his father was involved. It just made him feel terrible. It made him feel bad and disloyal and all that kind of thing. Yeah, he said it just felt bad for him and he didn't like it. He said he didn't want to tell anybody that he was suspicious

because he felt bad talking about his dad. Couldn't reconcile with the feelings. That sucks. Yeah. So now Rob's brother-in-law, let's enter him into the picture here. Maria's brother? I believe so, yeah. Or maybe Maria's, it's got to be, no, Maria's an only child.

So this is Rob's sibling's husband. Husband, got it. Yeah, because Maria's definitely an only child. So his brother-in-law, Gene Leahy, he's an attorney who lives in Wilmington, Delaware. Oh. So he's got an attorney who lives in Wilmington, Delaware. Oh. So he's got an attorney in the family. When he heard of Maria's murder, he got right in the car and drove up to Tom's River, and accompanied by Robbie and John, they went to Philadelphia to tell Maria's parents of her death.

Wow. So, yeah. So then they told, obviously that Saturday, they got told about the affair with Saran. He also told Gene that day. Rob tells Gene, his brother-in-law, and Gene wasn't surprised. He told Rob that Maria had known all along and had put together a file with American Express charges to various motels in the area and had found a secret toiletry kit that he kept for his affairs with saran as well as tapes with various love songs and love proclamations she knew everything yeah she had

it all he's bad at this he's not he thinks he's slick as fuck this guy right and he's lazy gets away with all the only thing on earth he's good at is selling insurance. Yes. That's what it seems like to me. Everything else is terrible. He's not good at anything else. Yeah. So Jean said that. Maria had called Jean on Tuesday, September 4th. And Jean said she'd been frantic, saying everything was coming to a head and she was ready to confront her husband then.

Oh. Yep. She wanted Jean to be there when she did and he agreed you know keep it like cool and calm keep it all professional here he and maria planned to sit down with rob on monday morning september 10th which turns into her memorial instead wow so gene had looked at the facts as he said as logically as he thought he could muster. He said that he was told by Rob that Maria had $1.5 million worth of life insurance. Holy. At that point, Gene said, well, everything's pointing to you then because that's a lot of fucking money.

You're having affairs. You're having all this money. She's about to divorce you. None of this looks good for you, bro. And then she dies? And you just have a bump dude this is good this is crazy rob said no no one would think that about me he literally said i'm like i'm like a i'm a country club guy and they know i'm not everybody knows i'm not a

bad guy no one would accuse me of that that's what he thinks yeah he thought his status could just make him fine now but his friends have some doubts. One of his group of a couple here, Sal and Paula Caccaro, they've been friends with Rob and Maria. They said they met at the country club. They met them at the country club and they said they loved Maria. She was great. They were horrified by her death. They said they had joined the marshals for dinner a week before Maria was killed at Harrah's

and Sal remembered the dinner conversation he had with Rob. Rob had talked about how he kept at least a million dollars in insurance on Maria for a good selling point and that both of them had decided to be cremated when the time came. They said he mentioned it several

times. Why do you keep bringing up cremation at dinner? That's weird. I know I overcooked this steak, but you know what that reminds me of? Yeah. He also said, though, that Rob said he was going to be start taking every Friday off from work to devote to his family as a means of to try to, you know, just fix my life, fix shit with Maria and all that she'd done for him and all that he'd done to her.

Rob said that it had rekindled their relationship into a full fledged romance. That's why they were staying out late Thursday night. He's told Sal how, you know, you should do the same. He said, always make sure your work's done by Thursday and you should, you should spend Friday with your wife. You owe it to her. That's what you should do. Sal said that he was a little bit pissy about Rob's patronizing lecture.

He's like, fucking tell me how to run my marriage. Tell me I'm fine. I plow my wife on a Wednesday night. I don't need it to be Friday. I don't need a fucking day off. Leave me alone. I'm fucking Sal. I plow her on a Tuesday.

What does it look like? I wake her up 3 a.m she loves it 3 a.m i say roll over sweetheart come on it's time to ride the sal train i wake her up sucking on her thighs what do you want oh man that's right so he said that um he found sal said he was growing pissier and pissier here then on september 8th rob sat down with him and um after he talked to gene lahey there sal said he was even madder and madder because sal rob told him he just told everybody that day oh by the way i have a ton of financial problems and i'm having a fair just so you everybody knows i guess it's now fuck your wife on friday

now fuck you now go home and fuck your wife on Friday I do also you should bang another chick on maybe Tuesday Monday but by Friday be ready for her you'll be good and stiff by then and act horny too act like you ain't been with nobody else that's part of it you can't act like oh you know I don't care about none of this

so yeah he just tells everybody I guess so they don't read it in the newspaper because if he says that he can spin it if they read it in the newspaper then he can't spin it then they're going to form their own opinions he's a salesman rob was blaming maria for the financial problems and all that kind of thing sal also knew who saran was and was friends with her husband as well why because this is a what jimmy it's a small town this is a small town whenever everyone in the story knows each other and they're afraid to be seen going into an office you live in a small town so he was aware of her reputation for being flirtatious with the husbands

of other women but actually he said that she her nickname around town was Tom's River's Own Madam Bovary. That's what they called her. So she just went around throwing tits on people. Yeah, who's just flirty. A little horny, yeah. Well, also, she's having an affair and everything else. But does Madam Bovary, well, it's Madam. Is that a loose gal, Madam Bovary? Well, it's Madame. Is that a loose gal, Madame Bovary?

It's definitely not saying she's the one to go to for your accounting every April when taxes are due, I don't think. He said that Sal said it made him angry that Rob didn't seem to have any concern for the grief his sons were feeling, any of that. you know feeling any of that so tuesday september 11th robbie he's as he's leaving his house robbie is confronted by several reporters that are waiting outside now we've come to this they ask him questions did you know about the affair is your father in debt to casinos does he owe people does he sell coke i mean they're asking him all these questions yeah he's like holy shit he said have you they also asked him have you heard the, the rumor that your father is going to be arrested for your mother's murder? Oh. Yeah.

So she was like, he said, what the fuck? So he was trying to be polite. He said he was trying to be like his mom. So he politely declined to comment, but said that if the reporters knew his father and seen his parents together, they would know there's no way his dad was involved. That's what he said. Later that night, Rob, he's feeling very sad, obviously. He made a love tape for Saran that night. What kind of love tape?

He put some of their favorite songs on there. Oh, my God, a mixtape. He cried about how much he loved and missed her and told her that the entire experience has brought him closer to God. Oh, Jesus, really? The balls on this guy. Holy shit. Robbie says this about the whole situation. He couldn't believe this was happening,

and this is what he said to the press on his front lawn. Quote, It always feels like when you live in a small town, you're tucked away from crime. And when it comes and invades your little circle, it's devastating. People just can't imagine that anything could happen in such a small little town like Tom's River. We're going to get a hundred messages that say Tom's River is not a small town.

That's why I keep reiterating this. Your residents keep saying it. Yeah. Sorry. If they feel like they're in a small town, it's a small town. So then the next thing comes on here. During the memorial service, the attorney, Michael DeWitt, brought his file on Maria Marshall to the lieutenant, Bob Ladstone. DeWitt thought one particular thing of interest was a note Maria had sent him on July 23rd along with the words, holding my own, pray for me.

She had attached three telephone numbers with the area code 318 that she had gotten off of their telephone bills and said can you look into these dewitt found out 318 is western louisiana yeah so gladstone though the cop is able to get a printout of the toll calls made from because it's a it's not a local call so it's going to show up on the phone bill made from, because it's not a local call, so it's going to show up on the phone bill, made from the Marshall's home and from Rob's office. Yeah. From his office. It's not one of the kids. It's not Maria.

It's got to be him. For the six months prior to this happening, okay? First number on the list was for a hardware store in Shreveport. Uh-huh. Insurance agent in New Jersey has to call a hardware store hardware shreveport uh how many nails do you have okay good just checking click you guys need insurance down there so insured for water damage anything that number appeared on the phone records over 20 times starting in june of 84 what who over 20 times the last June of 84. What? Who works there? Over 20 times.

The last call being made on Wednesday, September 5th. Second number belonged to a 47-year-old man named Robert Cumber. His nickname better be Q or I'm very disappointed. Cumber, just like Cucumber. He lived in Bossier City, which is just outside of Shreveport. Cumber's number appeared on the Marshall phone records 10 to 12 times. Cumber worked at the hardware store in Shreveport. Okay.

So now, okay, that's where the hardware store makes difference. That's why we're calling him. That's why it makes sense, not difference. telephone number here appearing a few times on the phone records was for a pay phone located outside an exxon gas station 10 miles west of shreveport how many times have you called a pay phone outside an exxon station 10 miles west of shreveport that's the most random site i can think of i couldn't think of one more fucking random than that i've never called an a pay phone at an exxon station 10 miles outside of anywhere anywhere never mind phoenix so um then they get more information from the phone records thursday september 6th uh 6th rob had called saran at work at 9 46 at 9 48 she called him back from a different line which she neglected to tell the interviewer they

said she didn't say that their call lasted 10 minutes until another call had come in for rob at 9 59 that call came from a pay phone at the airport motor inn in atlantic city oh and i have to take this yeah this is an emergency yep um they also uh two days later they figured out that eight minutes after the 9.50 a.m. call, someone had called the payphone at the airport motor inn from a payphone outside a 7-Eleven store five minutes from Rob Marshall's office. Payphone to payphone now. Payphone to payphone. Payphone to payphone. It's got to be a love song, right? It is. It's the one from Twins. It's got to be a love song, right? It is. It's the one from Twins.

Yeah. Is it? Brother to brother song. Payphone to payphone. Yeah. We watched Twins the other night. It was great. Did you?

I haven't seen it in years. That's fucking wonderful. Me and Sarah were laughing our asses off. So the September 11th, the detective traveled to Atlantic City and the airport motor in looking at the motel's register. They discovered that a James Davis of where Shreveport, Louisiana. Yeah. Had checked in shortly after seven in the morning on Thursday, September 6th and checked out the next day. Davis paid the right the rate for a double occupancy as well.

So there's two people there. Yeah. More insurance info. They said in addition to two separate $100,000 policies that Rob had taken out on Maria in the years earlier through his own company, which he had told everybody, by the way, that that was a good sales technique to tell everybody that he had this much. I have so much on my wife. She has it on me. He had this much.

I have so much on my wife. She has it on me. He also took out a $500,000 policy with a different insurance company, Banner Life Insurance, in September of 83, a $500,000 policy with the Manhattan Life Insurance Company in February of 84, $100,000 policy with the Fireman's Fund Company in February 84, $100,000 policy with the Minnesota Mutual Life Insurance Company in April of 1984, then another $100,000 policy that he rushed into effect the week she died. Wow. That is wild. $1.2 million of the insurance policies had been obtained after his affair with Saran had started.

So the original half million dollars, they're a wealthy couple that would make sense for them to have that kind of insurance money on each other that's how it goes but the rest of this little much but he is really to to to be a beacon of society you know and a member of this community that is that is affluent and very wealthy he's stretched us so thin offering porsches to children that's what i mean this is it's all the way for the looks of it all yeah it's to be better than his parents exactly i will be better than my parents and my wife will stick with me just like my mom did so or else other info here thursday september 14 gladstone the lieutenant studies records he got from a credit check and a harris marina

the harris report showed that rob had made 25 visits to the casino between january 84 and september 6th 25 oh he played blackjack for roughly 93 hours and seven minutes over the course of those visits because they have video of everything at a casino. How much money can you lose in 93 hours? His average bet was $131. Okay. You can lose a lot of money. Yeah, you sure can. And that guy, his credit limit,

he had a credit limit, he had credit there. Oh, God, Jesus. Was $10,000, and at the time of Maria's murder, he owed the casino $3,000. Okay. So he's still well under his limit. Still fine. The $100,000 home equity loan that Rob had forged

in Maria's signature had been raised to its $130,000 limit in the spring of 1984. In April, Rob had taken out a $20,000 loan from the First National Bank of Tom's River and another $15,000 in May. He followed that up with a $30,000 loan from Navy Federal Credit Union and a with thirty thousand dollar loan from navy federal

credit union and a twelve thousand dollar loan from city bank okay over the summer he applied to raise his credit limits on his visa and master card and they both denied him that oh he's got so much out there too much yeah he's overextended he's way overextended how about that that's a fascinating way of living a life too if you have a ten thousand dollar limit at the like credit at the at the if you take two grand out of your of your chips and go and wager that and win four grand and don't pay that back you can go blow four grand you still owe them two grand you still owe them two grand you have four grand now yeah that's what happens when you just walked in there with nothing.

That's why it's credit. Dangerous. That's especially for a compulsive gambler. That's right. For a degenerate gambler, that's a lot. So James Davis and Robert Cumber now, we know these guys here. On September 15th, Friday, Lieutenant Gladstone discovered that James Davis's trip to Atlantic City on the day before Maria was killed was not his first. He traveled to Atlantic City on June 18th, but it stayed at the Harrah's Marina, which is a lot nicer than the place he was staying there.

June 18th, they said, was the same day Rob had attempted to acquire a $20,000 term life policy from Bankers Life in Chicago on Maria. So New Jersey detectives asked Shreveport people if they go talk to Robert Cumber and see if he's got anything to say here about any of this shit. So Cumber's the hardware store guy. Cumber said he met the marshals in May at a party for a family friend in New Jersey. He said that this friend allegedly had ties to organized crime and was also connected to the person that Saran mentioned to Rob Marshall. The guy that used to get arrested a lot?

Yeah, that's what I think it is, yeah. So Tuesday, September 18th, Gladstone and the two detectives fly down to Shreveport. Robert Cumber repeats the same story about talking to Rob Marshall. He said, I talked to him about IRAs, financial shit. Not the Irish terrorists. So he said they're whatever they are. I don't know what your angle is on that.

I don't know enough about it to even have an angle or a side on that one. I don't know. Investments. Depends on if you like you two or not, I think, is really how you feel about that. So, they had no luck talking to James Davis, who said, I don't know, Rob or Maria Marshall, I never went to New

Jersey, and I don't know anything about an airport motor in. Even though they have all the records of him going there several times. This guy calls you, you call him, you stay by him. Never been. Never even been in the state of New Jersey. Well, all right. So they're able to get a search warrant for his home based on the fact that they know he's lying.

Absolutely lying. A receipt for a Western Union money order sent to Davis from Tom's River on June 25th, as well as a piece of paper with a notation that Davis would be receiving a $3,000 money order. Oh. as a piece of paper with a notation that Davis would be receiving a $3,000 money order. Oh. The paper came from a memo pad belonging to a Shreveport hardware store that Cumber works at. So this couldn't all be tied together any better. Wow.

He said Davis wouldn't say shit about it. All he would say is, it's not my handwriting. Okay. That's it. Doesn't matter. But his wife, on the other hand, Davis' wife they told detectives you should check out a friend of his named billy wayne mckinnon oh this is getting deep dude we're deep in the body and everything else 41 year old mckinnon she said's a former policeman and the kind of person who would commit murder in her opinion a A bad man. A bad man. Yeah. Former as in retired or former as in fired?

Former as in not anymore and is possibly the recipient of a double occupancy rate. Okay, got it. That's what I'm thinking. So they found out on September 21st that Davis had received two money orders from Tom's River, like we said. The receipt they found a day earlier had been the second one. This is the first payment. The first one sent on June 13th had been for $2,500, and it has a sender on there.

Uh-oh. Robert Marshall. Oh, no. Not good. He's wiring money. They said the second money order was sent from a different name, a James McAllister, but the handwriting on both was identical. He said, oh, shit, I shouldn't put my name on this, should I? You know what?

That's a bad idea. I probably shouldn't have put my name on the other one. Whoops-a-daisy. Nope, I think that's what he noticed. So Cumber, at the request of the detectives, came down to the station around 5 o'clock. They read him his rights. He admitted James McAllister. They read him his rights.

He admitted James McAllister. James McAllister was a name that Rob Marshall used and that Rob had asked him if he knew an investigator he could hire as he didn't want to use one locally. Cumber had suggested Billy Wayne McKinnon. The 31 phone calls between Shreveport Hardware Store and the Marshall residence were mostly between Rob Marshall and McKinnon. Cumber was merely the go-between. Wow. Because the guy who doesn't work at the hardware store can't answer ace hardware he's gonna he's gotta go oh it's for you yeah so at 1 30 a.m september 22nd of this year robert cumber is charged with conspiracy

to commit murder and arrest oh shit that handing that phone over as conspiracy. Absolutely. So four days later, he's indicted by Ocean County, New Jersey's grand jury on the charge of conspiracy to commit murder. And ten minutes later, he pleads guilty. No shit. Now, Rob denies knowing Cumber Davis or McKinnon, but Robbie admits to having taken a message for his father from Davis in the days prior to this. message for his father from davis in the days prior to this yeah so uh sarah saran at this point on the advice of counsel ended her 14 month relationship with rob after news of this yeah they said you're gonna look bad if you stay with this guy so yeah they said that um that was that was the hard part she said that she she thought he was somehow involved and she was, quote, appalled by the deception, she said. Yeah.

Yeah. September 27th. OK, this has really been a wild three weeks here. Marshall Rob checks himself into the best Western in Lakewood. Oh, it's room 16. He records messages for all of his sons and one for gene leahy his brother-in-law he puts them in an envelope addressed to leahy with specific instructions on the outside that it was to be opened in the event of his death okay the hotel clerk who's

new marshall because that was probably one of his fuck pot spots there called the ocean city car county prosecutor to let the office know that Marshall's here. Why is that, Jimmy? Who would do that? Who would know? Small town. Small town. Know who to call, know who was there.

Detectives were dispatched, and they took the room next door. They took room 17 and just hung out next door. With a cup to the wall. Anything? Just hung out next to him. Just put a cup to the wall. Anything? They watched him buy a can of soda at 10.30 p.m. and then drop an envelope into the outgoing mail at the front desk at 11.30 p.m.

Seeing the notation on the envelope, they feared he might be killing himself. So they called M.E.M.S. and then entered his room. Hilarious. He was asleep on his bed. A photo of Maria with Robbie, Chris, and John was on the floor beside him. He had mixed 50 Restoril sleeping pills in a can of Coke. That's what he got the Coke for. Oh, yeah.

And was trying to kill himself there. So he stirred the mixture with his finger, and I guess he didn't finish the whole thing. Because of Coke, you have to drink the whole can yeah sometimes you have to burp and so he fell asleep before he finished the rest and the all the pills were at the bottom yeah so he was enough in there to make him go to sleep though counteract the caffeine what a dad what a dipshit yeah this guy he's very dad like unless for everything else that he's doing there. He's taken to the hospital, and then he is transferred under the advice of his attorney to the psychiatric facility close to Philadelphia. Now, on the tapes, because they confiscate the tapes here, he explained that he made it for his sons. He said he was taking a shortcut out of this and would hopefully join their mother.

For Robbie, he said that he had instructed Gene Leahy to purchase him a Mustang. That Mustang he owed him. You're going to get that car, son. Don't worry. You're going to get it. He explained that he had instructed Gene to purchase that. For Chris, it was Leahy who had been instructed to purchase the lease on the Jeep. For John, it was that Leahy would buy him a Porsche when he turned 17.

I know I took your mom from you. How about a Mustang? How about a Mustang convertible? On the tape addressed to Chris, he ended it with, quote, please love me. Who hasn't said that before? You know what I mean? Please love me. Please love me please love me please fuck you please i know i killed your mom and did a bunch of shit but please love me

please love me he said i am convinced in my mind that without uh and all of the other circumstances surrounding maria's death this is on the tape, that not only will I be indicted, but the inevitable will happen. And a jury of men and women who do not know me will be compelled to find me guilty and I'll be sentenced to death. Not only can I not bear going through that, but the embarrassment to my family would be far worse than anything else I can think of.

I want a little dignity to remain if possible. Please. He also, yeah. So come to your shit over. Just a little dignity to remain if possible. Please. Yeah. So come to your shit over here. Just a little bit. Please love me. So other excerpts from the tapes here.

Quote, as I lie here wondering where to start. I think back 14 months ago when I went out with a lady, Saran, who for years we just winked across the pool or across the room. Nothing but a friend. A good friend.

A friend that Maria didn't care too much for. But a friend of mine who was a lot like me. You know. Dirty. Dirty. Horny. Without any scruples. Willing to fuck their whole life up.

With a destroyed moral compass. willing to fuck their whole life up with a destroyed moral compass uh i began a relationship that developed into a torrid love affair that was going to tear my marriage apart and if it were not for maria's death that would have happened within a month i guess my problem began long before that though really because for some reason and i'm to blame whatever we wanted to do or buy we just went ahead and did it and if it meant borrowing to do it, we did it anyway. And I always assured Maria that it was okay, that there was enough, even if there wasn't. I think she knew, but she knew that I wanted it, and I know that she wanted it, whatever it was. And we did it and created a spiral, a spiral that accelerated to almost $200,000 in debt, not including the mortgage on the house. Oh, my God.

Debt that I was determined to pay off, but I just couldn't seem to climb out. Well, maybe gambling once a week isn't the best way to do that. Yeah, when you've got $200,000 in debt plus the house, the fucking APR alone will fucking destroy you. Killing you. Killing you. He said, we were starting to work on it together, and I had emphasized the importance of spending less. And I knew, of course, within a month I was going to be leaving, and I would make the necessary changes to eliminate the debt by putting Maria on an allowance and taking whatever cash was left and applying it toward debt reduction. However, that never happened.

Never had the chance. Because some bastards followed us home from what i can gather perhaps after tampering with one of the tires on my car knowing i would have to pull off somewhere or pull over and we're either going to rob us or do what had to be done to take the money we had on us the circumstances that and then it says even in the transcript it says sigh he had such a pause in a side they had to put it in the transcript the circumstances that surrounded the entire event evening are bizarre and i can only think that the police uh that i think that i'm involved somehow because of maria's actions over the last four or five months because her actions because your action in response to your actions right her reactions

he said i felt like i felt compelled to hire somebody who thought i thought had a good reputation was from out of town didn't mind coming the distance to make a few inquiries to find out what the hell is going on where the money was going was missing from the checkbook our cash entries blackjack money of five or six thousand dollars that had disappeared without explanation they're saying mom was out fucking gallivanting and i had to figure out financially what she was up to so i needed a private investigator for that yeah not the bank records so he's got he's got a private investigator investigating his wife when he's being a piece of shit yeah it's like find out if she knows that i'm being a piece of shit. Yeah, it's like, find out if she knows that I'm being a piece of shit. Find out if she knows. Find out if she knows.

He said, I had asked Maria to turn that money over to me at one point so that we could reduce the loan, and all she could produce was $1,400, telling me that the rest had been spent on the kids' clothes and stuff like that. I find out now that what she had done was hire an investigator of her own to follow me, and that that investigator, unbeknownst to me leaked the knowledge of my affair to several people uh one town in one town including an attorney who was a drinking buddy uh robbie and bobby robbie and bob gasser mr gasser the attorney

had discussions about this i believe they want to pursue the matter legally if possible um okay the thought that comes to mind is if anybody who knew about it, the attorney who he told, who is a friend of mine, or any of the people who the attorney told, if they had said something to me, this entire thing would not have happened because we wouldn't have been in Atlantic City that night. Worse than that, if Maria had confronted me when either she wanted to or sooner, none of this would have happened. If she would have just called me a liar a month ago, of this would happen i wouldn't have had to kill her called me on my bullshit then i wouldn't be covering up all my bullshit wouldn't have to kill her then it would be so much easier he said and i of jesus christ and i think back at the circumstances of our last meeting with dr miller the family counselor we were going to i found out that she maria wanted to uh to ask him

privately about a letter she had written to me, which apparently was a letter telling me that she had me followed and knew everything and was all documented but didn't matter. She wanted to start over. It didn't matter. She loved me. She would forget everything. And when I think about that now, how incredible she was, how much she loved me, how foolish I was to walk away from her. I miss her so. And so as each day goes by, it gets worse and worse. Oh my God. Glenn Zeitz and Russ Colins, his investigator, Colins? Colins? Russ Colins? Russ Colins knew all the details of the investigation that I hired. Unfortunately, they've been indicted for conspiracy because

it appears as though they were hired for something else. I'm convinced in my mind and all the other circumstances surrounding Maria's death that not only will I be indicted, and that's when he says the other stuff, you must communicate to everybody my love to Maria in spite of our problems. And I wouldn't hurt her in spite of what seems apparent. You must also let the authorities know that Saran was not involved in any way. Yeah, sure, dad. Let me save your girlfriend from legal troubles. We don't think she is. We think you did this.

Jesus Christ. He said there's lots of things that are going on that have to be taken care of, Joe. And I'd like you to do it for me, please. First of all, you have my authority to release Glenn Zeitz from the civil action against the insurance companies on the life insurance policies for Maria. I want you to handle that, and hopefully I'll remember to put that in writing and leave it with this tape. I've given him $5,000 for the work he's done so far. I think that's, at this point, all he's entitled to, although if he gives us a bill, submits a bill for additional expenses, I believe we should pay it. But considering the limited time he's been involved, I think $5,000 should cover it.

Naturally, all the life insurance on my life will not be collectible because it was all purchased within the last year or so, the same as Maria. That is to say, they were all purchased at the same time. However, there's a considerable group of life insurance contracts with Provident Mutual that will pay, and that money can be used. I've also sold the office building, and there should be close to $40,000 net after commission. I should also point out, by the way, that the premiums on all the life insurance on my life will be refundable.

So a claim in that respect should be submitted to each of the companies. Jesus Christ, this guy is really how many fucking policies? Chase down all these life insurance companies and get this money back he also said he wants robbie to go back to villanova in january and um he thinks that um you know he should continue at the community at the county college until then he'd like john to finish out his his thing at school too uh he talks about loan information's bunch of boring stuff he said i'm not entitled to veterans benefits so don't even bother applying my was discharged yeah probably my will and all he

can do is sell insurance and all the legal papers that you'll need are in the top drawer left hand file cabinet behind my desk i gave sam and philip worzel the com the condominium in captivity of florida and there's a letter to that effect in the file. Okay. He said he's talking about the boys' cars and all the Porsche shit and all that kind of thing. He said it's now 630, and as I lay here, I'm really tormented. Twenty days ago, I prayed to St. Rita to spare me the ordeal I feel is inevitable now with a sealed indictment at the Ocean County Prosecutor's Office.

Everybody's best guess is that it's got my name on it. In spite of my innocence, and as I'll say, I feel I'll be found guilty because of the circumstantial evidence that points in that direction. And I can't bear the thought of all that. Circumstantial. Circumstantial. Idiot. There's so much evidence

it's all financial and telephone phone calls and financial dude it's over for you imagine if everyone had cell phones forget it he said so I believe what I will do at 1245 tonight which is approximately the same time we pulled off

the parkway three weeks ago to look at a flat tire as I will join Maria. I hope that God forgives me as I'll be praying right until the end that he does that. I'm sorry, Joe. Tell Jeannie that I said I recognize that St. Rita is the let's make a deal saint and that whenever she grants something, she takes something away. This is the only solution I could find, although in retrospect, others might say I should have left it in the hands of God and all of it would have worked out. I can't see it that way. I'm scared and I don't have the courage to go through this.

I'm sorry for letting everyone down and not see it through. I'm especially sorry for the boys. Jesus Christ. Then he says, when you get a chance, call Saran and tell her that I loved her and that I'm sorry for disappointing her. I will not be doing that. her that i loved her and that i'm sorry for disappointing her i will not be doing that tell her that as i speak to you i'm in room 16 at the best western where i was my happiest and now i'm the saddest it's leaving their room gross gross i'm sleeping in our old jizz puddle good god i can feel it all over the fucking i'm gonna i'm gonna die in our in our old just oh my god tell her that i knew she was going back

to stanley and that i understand in spite of the feeling that i i think all would have worked out for us could have i guess if i had stuck around to see it through with her gone and her not here i'm alone really i can't go alone uh tell her i love her i tell her i wish her not here, I'm alone, really. I can't go alone. Tell her I love her. I tell her I wish her the best. Tell her to stay straight and tell her I said stop smoking. Stay straight. You do not tell people when to smoke and when not to smoke. It's bad for your health.

Being married to you is the worst for your health, sir. He then says, something else just popped in my mind. There's two outstanding markers at Harrah's, one for $1,000 and one for $2,000. That represents the money that Marie and I came home with the night of the 6th. He took markers out to have cash to say he lost. I have put stop payments on the drafts. There just wasn't enough money in the checking account to cover them. I've spoken with Harrah's.

They know that I did it, but I don't know if we can avoid paying them. But if not, Joe, just take care of it eventually. And he talks about his final arrangements, bury me here. He says, give Ted Sari a call too. He's been an absolutely super. Tell him I love him and both him and Sue and I appreciate them standing behind me. Tell everybody to pray for me and Marie

and I hope that we're together. I will have made a tape for each of the boys which will be in the attache case here in the room. Oh, my God. Yeah, please love me is the bottom line. Please love me. And then he fell asleep. He even talks about there's a client of his

who owes him $400 because he sold him a table. And he wants that money back. So he's like, you should collect that $400 from Harry Tomberin. Get with him. All sorts of shit like that. Very detailed. I mean, he sat here. It goes on for fucking pages about very specific shit.

But he does talk about Cumber. Oh? Yes. He says that I mentioned at the house that I said, I wired money to a fellow, to a fellow in Louisiana to pay off a debt, a bet. In fact, that money was being sent out to the investigator that I mentioned earlier in the tape. This was a guy who was recommended by this fellow, Bobby Cumber, supposed to be a very good investigator. He made two trips to New Jersey one in June after I wired him 2,500500. He's trying to say it's not the other guy. He said he was going to be busy for a

while, but I wired him some additional money. If I did, he would come back and check things out. The objective was to do this quietly without anyone in the area knowing. As we found out, people in the area are not reliable. I suspected that from what I knew of the people that work in Ocean County, that this was the logic behind getting someone out of town. This guy would apparently work as cheap as somebody in the next state and was supposed to have a good reputation. OK, so he's trying to say that the money that he spent for the murder was for private investigation.

Yep. Yep. And he said Bob Cumbery talked to him on the phone. That was just for some investment business. That's all that was because they had talked about IRAs at a party. Yep. And he said Bob Cumber, he talked to him on the phone. That was just for some investment business. That's all that was because they had talked about IRAs at a party. So those guys didn't come here. No, absolutely not. All right.

Are you kidding me? And if they did, it was because they were investigating her while they were here. Everybody. Everybody. Yeah. And talking about our investments. Okay. he said the police and again they have a sigh in here the police as i understand it have indicted both bob cumber and this fellow jimmy davis whose name is billy something okay as conspirators but and i'm convinced that the third sealed indictment that's in tom's river is for me oh my god so that's what he says. He says, fill the boys in on everything and, you know, do all of that shit here. Talks about any other outstanding debts. Now, after all this, they talk about McKinnon here. And in spite of his innocence, he worried he would be convicted on circumstantial evidence and pointed and that pointed in his direction.

He said the casino money had been missing. And Robert Cumber and recommended an investigator named Billy, Billy Wayne McKinnon to look into it. Marshall said he wired McKinnon twenty five hundred dollars in June, after which McKinnon came north to New Jersey, then wired him a second installment of three thousand dollars. The second time Marshall had seen McKinnon was at Harrah's the night Maria was killed, where he gave him $800. He says that on the tape. He saw him at the casino, gave him $800, and they drove away and his wife was killed. Wow. This gives the detectives a reason to arrest Billy Wayne McKinnon, too.

So they do. He doesn't get extradited because he fights it until december 3rd wow and that is they're both james davis and cumber uh are borrow mckinnon and james davis are both sent to tom's river here uh the prosecutor's office said they're ready to make a deal with mckinnon and or davis for the right information and mckinnon was a cop and he knows that he knows what that means yeah he knows what this means so he said he's ready to talk uh but only after he heard the tape that marshall made he said i want to i want to hear that that's real yeah so he told the cops he was not the shooter he says he said that marshall was only only going to be an easy

mark to collect thousands of dollars. So that's all it was. So they played the tape for him. McKinnon commented that Marshall was supposed to say that he and Maria had patched up their marriage to the point of a second honeymoon and that before her death, he no longer needed McKinnon services as a private investigator. That's what he's supposed to say on the tape. No, that's what he's supposed to say. McK tape no that's what oh he's supposed to say got it mckinnon was told to say that if anyone asks you yeah mckinnon told gladstone that marshall was so stupid he should be put to death for his stupidity alone he's the worst at organizing murder killing then he says fine i'll take the deal i. I'll ID the shooter and I'll testify. Oh, shit.

So he said that after Mrs. Marshall was killed, her and her husband knocked unconscious as planned. He and Thompson, this Thompson we'll talk about, returned to Atlantic City. On the way, he said Mr. Thompson tossed the gun into the river. In Atlantic City, he said they picked up two prostitutes and took them to the motel. Kind of have a little post-murder coitus, you know what I mean? That guy's a badass. Watch out for him. That's a frightening person.

Kill, ah, that guy's dead. Let's get hookers. Yeah! Jesus Christ. You want to get some pay, pussy? Let's get it. What the fuck? After they awakened, they drove McKinnon's Cadillac back to Louisiana.

That's what they did. McKinnon said that Marshall had paid him $22,000 in advance. He said he told Mr. Thompson that he would collect $50,000 of the insurance money within six months and would give $25,000 of it to Thompson. He said that Marshall had never seen nor talked to Mr. Thompson and did not know who would be helping McKinnon. Wow. McKinnon said he'd suggested that Marshall be shot in the leg or the arm

to make sure the crime looked like a robbery and not a murder for hire. But he was like, was that a 45? Fuck you. Jesus Christ. Can you wing me with a 22 maybe? He said that Rob rejected the idea and even ordered that he not even be hit over the head so hard. Don't hit me too hard over the head.

Take it easy. He said, so, quote, he wouldn't become an idiot for the rest of his life. Don't scramble my shit, please. I've heard about these lawn darts. If you would just do it gentle. Just really give me a nice crack here. So on December 19th, 1984,

a 42-year-old man named Larry Thompson was arrested outside of a hot dog stand in Stanton, Louisiana. Oh, really? As most people are. Having a hot dog. So then that same day, 2.30 p.m., while he's out Christmas shopping, Rob is arrested. Oh, wow. Yep, he's arrested. He had been told that—

They got him out before— They saved his life, really. Kept him out of going into debt further. Debt further. Kept him from dying from sleeping pills. Don't do this. You're going to die. They said, though, he had been pricing tickets from Miami to Costa Rica, where extradition is difficult. They found out.

From a travel agent. Why? Because it's a small town. Assistant Ocean County County, as you can just call it. Ocean County Prosecutor Kevin Kelly said that during a trip to Florida

in late October or early November, less than two months after the murder, that fucking Rob went down to Florida and met a woman named Christy and began a relationship with her. This guy? Yes. Began a relationship. Oh, met a woman named Christy, then began a relationship with a woman named Karen O'Dell,

who is the wife of a guy named Ralph O'Dell, who was an acquaintance that had moved to Florida from Tom's River. How does he do it? I don't know. He's a golden-tongued son of a bitch over here. He denied he was engaged to Mrs. Odell, because that's what they claimed, even after

Kelly produced a November 1985 Ocean County jail request in which Marshall asked for a contact visit with her, who he described as quote a woman who will be my future wife yes a contact visit i need to fuck i need her to touch my penis they also get an illicit from marshall an admission that he never picked up his wife's ashes they were still at the funeral he never picked picked them up. What? Bro, at least act like you fucking care. Wow.

They're still in a brown cardboard box in the funeral home. Didn't even get a nice urn for her. Unclaimed moms in that section. Oh, my God. Wow. Not yet. No, they give it the box and you put it in whatever. Right, and then you figure it out.

But he left her in the lost and found. Yep. He explained that his family had planned to bury the ashes during a Christmas vacation that was canceled because he got arrested. If you just wouldn't have arrested me, I would have picked it up tomorrow and we would have gone and buried it. I was on my way to get it. I just figured I'd leave her there for three months. I'd want those immediately. Let me take my wife home with me, please.

Yeah, I'd love to have those forever. Love to have that love to love to yeah love to weird out all of my family and friends for the next 30 40 years love to do that it's gonna be fun uh so january 1986 is the trial here yeah and there's several people on trial at the same time rob i think rob has tried with uh rob has tried with one of them here. So we'll get into this. During the opening, they called it, by the way, newspapers called it, quote, the Shores Trial of the Century was held in May's Landing in Atlantic County.

It was moved counties because of extensive news coverage. Because this is a big deal. It's a small town. It had everything it says from some sex to greed it's got it all uh it was a soap opera for the observers and everybody would you know this was a big deal in town they said there was all sorts of riveting testimony um one here kelly the prosecutor branded him a coward and a liar okay Okay. Not bad. Said that he looked at his jury, pointed to Marshall, and said, and he has the audacity to bring his three boys in here to testify.

That's obscene. He says, and I'm not being critical of them because I probably would have done the same thing, but to put his boys on the witness stand is obscene. And for that, there's a special place in hell for him. Okay. I'd like to help get him there faster yeah he left off yeah the defense said they barely have any evidence these people are crazy oh my god yes they have several co-conspirators testifying against him but

what does that mean really what does that mean they can certainly build a case and prove it but is it real is it really um yeah he said that um yeah that uh mckinnon says that they were it's all based it's basically mckinnon's word versus their word at that point so this is larry thompson is the other guy larry thompson is the guy mckinnon says is the trigger man okay that they hired brought up there, and the guy that was given $800 right before it happened. So it's going to be Rob and Larry Thompson are tried together at the same time. So that's how that goes. They're both charged with first-degree murder with special circumstances. Death penalty is on the table, and prosecutors are seeking it in both cases.

Absolutely. On both of them. circumstances death penalty is on the table and prosecutors are seeking it in both cases absolutely on both of them so the judge who presided here and then they got the kevin kelly's the attorney and um glenn zeitz is his attorney that he mentioned before he's marshall's attorney and then thompson has his own attorney thompson's wife wanda and their teenage son stayed in the Marshall's home during the trial. Oh, boy. So the guy. Are the kids there? Yes.

Oh, my God. This is weird as fuck. That's how weird is that? So gross. I mean, it shows a united front, but Jesus Christ. So the state said they believe Rob Marshall drowning in debt, wanted to continue his relationship with his married mistress and had solicited and paid for the murder of his wife in exchange for the $1.5 million insurance money. That money would allow him to start a new life and, you know, everything's going to be great.

So Saran testifies. That's going to be rough for him. Yeah. She takes the stand. According to her, Marshall told her in December of 83, he was 300 grand in debt due to Maria's spending. And that if he could, quote, just get rid of her, the insurance he had on her would take care of everything. That's all. That's all I got to do.

If I could just kill a 42-year-old woman who was the mother of my children. I could just really get out of these annoying situations. So she testifies that he was heavily in debt. He told her all of that stuff. She said that, I guess, by the way, her husband is a very prominent car dealer. So she likes a salesman. She does. Who the fuck would want to spend time with both an insurance salesman and a car salesman? Yeah.

Dude. What's wrong with her? I would like to sell her something because I think she's buying. I think those are the kind of guys that say really nice things to women to try to get what they want. They're full of shit. Yeah, but she doesn't care that they're full of shit. She just wants the compliments. It's got to be what it is, right?

I would think so. Yeah. Has to be. Has to be what it is right i would think so yeah has to be what else has to be maybe i don't know so now he's accused of hiring thompson and billy wayne mckinnon to kill his wife so he could collect the money obviously mckinnon made a plea bargain agreement that's going to limit his sentence to a maximum of five years in prison really that's really light conspiracy to murder they want those two bad which worked wow yeah they want those two bad i understand conspiracy to murder if the person's still alive and you get five years but conspiracy to murder they're dead it worked and you only get

five wow yep he said that the conspiracy called for rob to stop at the picnic area, be knocked out, and rob while he's checking a tire. He said he was supposed to tell the police that when he regained consciousness, his money was missing, his wife was killed, exactly what happened. So they talk about Saran a little bit more. They ask her. Talk about Saran a little bit more. They ask her. She said that Saran said that when asked about if anyone, when he asked her if anyone could do the killing that she knew to kill my wife, she told him that violence was absurd and that she would not deal with it. Despite despite his comment that if she was not around, you know, I could take care of the debts and then gave him somebody's phone number, which is fucking insane.

I do not stand for violence. Call this guy. Oh, my God. She said that two weeks after the murder, she was at Rob's home when the authorities confronted him with the names and pictures of McKinnon and James Davis of Louisiana and that Marshall denied knowing them. she and Marshall returned to a condominium that she owned after a walk on a beach. And she had a message on her telephone from the eldest son, Robert Jr., saying that a number from Louisiana called and it was he got caught lying everywhere. He's really bad at lying here. She said before the murder, they met at hotels and other places up to three times a week. They were fucking.

She said they had planned to leave their spouses and rent a house the murder stopped the plans and uh her and her husband moved uh to the condo she quit it was vice principal and um yeah she had to quit her job if you're if your fucking plan is let's let's just there's no reason we're not wanting to be with our spouses. It's just that you fuck better and your plan is to move into a rental. Your plan is to move into a rental and then fight with your spouses for the next 10 years. That's your divorce. Sounds like a lot of fun, really, guys. That's great.

Just fucking close your eyes and fuck your wife. You know what I'm saying? What are you doing? What's wrong with you people? Jerk off over the toilet. Come on, like a normal person. The jesus christ so billy wayne mckinnon's the star witness he testified to using james davis's name when traveling to and from new jersey he said i used his name to check in and do all that and that he had if he's going to use a false

name why not use someone you make up i don? I don't know. Why use another guy in the conspiracy's name? Please don't attach to your life. Is everyone involved in this a complete moron? Is this a Coen Brothers movie? What the fuck is happening here? This is insane. These are a bunch of successful... What the fuck is happening?

It is fascinating that to murder one woman, it took three hillbilly idiots from Louisiana and a dipshit to ruin it. Idiots. So he testified to using that name and said that he had first met Rob in June of 84, at which time he was promised $65,000 for Kelly Maria, $22,000 or so of which he eventually received. Wow. Different payments. He said that Rob had wanted to kill Maria on that first meeting in June and then again in July. Can you do it now?

Now? How about now? How about now? What about now? McKinnon said he had planned on stringing Rob along as far as he could and to continue collecting money, or at least until he heard from Larry Thompson that a contract may have been put out on McKinnon for not holding up his end of the bargain. So he said McKinnon never intended to shoot Maria,

but he knew Thompson would and would have no qualms about doing it. So in September, he brought Thompson along to New Jersey, and it was Thompson who shot and killed Maria. According to McKinnon, Marshall told him that in killing Maria, he did not want anything that would destroy her beauty. No bludgeoning, no stabbing of any kind, or no sexual assault. That was part of it.

Two shots to the back will do it. To the back. Make an open casket real nice for the kids. He said that Rob refused to allow himself to be shot. They said that he only allowed the shot to the head with reluctance um that's my favorite part that's it don't make me an idiot the rest of my life is it love me or

is it that shit he's such a chicken shit he's such a chicken shit unbelievable no shit man so thompson's attorney told the jury the only reason thompson's been charged was because mckinnon needed a fall guy otherwise it's him. All the evidence he said pointed to McKinnon and only McKinnon. The only thing putting Thompson in is McKinnon, which is true. But still, it's a pretty good, it all lines up. So yeah, people come up, they testify about what happened here. The insurance brokers, all the, they dot all the I's and cross all the T's about money that was taken out. Shit we've already talked about. So he also the sons are there.

Robert Junior's there. Christopher's there. Oh, no, they're away at college. And Robert Junior was there for opening statements. That's all he saw. And then they'll come back to testify as well. come back to testify as well. So in cross-examination by Mr. Thompson's attorney,

McKinnon said that from time to time he lied to or misled Thompson and Marshall and the authorities. Whatever suits my purposes. He said after returning to Louisiana, he suggested to an investigator for Mr. Marshall that Mr. McKinnon and Mr. Marshall

agreed to say that Mr. Marshall's payments were simply for McKinnon to come to Tom River to steal a file on Mr. Marshall's extramarital activities. Jesus Christ. So the lawyer said, you could have a story. You'd have a story you could lie under oath in a courtroom. And McKinnon said, if I were sitting over there where Marshall and Thompson are, like, I'd do it.

And the lawyer said, you'd lie like hell, wouldn't you? And he said, I would possibly lie like hell. Maybe. Yup. And he said, under oath,

you'd lie like hell. And he said, possibly it's possible. And he said, well, you're under oath right now. And you're lying like hell. And he said,

with no strings attached, I'm here to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help me God. That's what I just said. That's what I just said. You hear that? Hey, Bible guy here to tell the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God. That's what I just said. That's what I just said. Did you hear that? Hey, Bible guy, come back over here.

The guy that held the Bible. Remember me? That's right. Check with the clerk's denote over there. That's right. So the jury hears the suicide tape, which is not good, that whole thing. Yeah. He takes the stand in his own defense.

He has to. Holy. Got no choice. Yeah. He takes a stand in his own defense. He has to. Got no choice. He said he hired McKinnon not to kill his wife, but to investigate what Maria knew or didn't know about his affair with Saran and what she did with the casino weddings he had given her. So they asked him to produce a contract for McKinnon for those investigator services, and he said he didn't have one. I don't have one of those. Yeah. That would sure help right now.

Just wired stuff. I wish I did, really. I should have had him fill one out. I'm just willy-nilly sending money across the fucking country. Yeah, just doing that. So when recounting the murder, he said now that he heard Maria cry out, oh, my God, when he was checking the tire just before he was struck in the head. So, by the way way no one else has never

had said that before yeah all the sons were like what the fuck yeah they thought huge maria was asleep what was going on they were banking on that they didn't want her to even know what happened here so um they they said that uh in the closing here or during this kevin kelly the prosecutor noted that marshall wore his wedding ring during the trial. He said it made him angry, feeling that Rob was playing at being the grief-stricken husband. Under Marshall's prior testimony of undying love for Maria, Kelly asked him why Maria's ashes were still in a cardboard box at the funeral home if he loved her so much.

Right. And he, by the way, who had time to travel to Florida, began two affairs after this and the relationship with the other one there. In these three months, he said he just didn't have any time. I was too busy. You don't understand. I've been fucking so much.

My schedule, tight. Just making sure my children are okay, and my dick's raw, I'll tell you that, raw. It's really hard to walk. Closing arguments are delivered and the prosecutor ends his with a pronouncement that there was a special place in hell for the cowardly

greedy and self-centered Marshall who had put his sons on the stand in an attempt to save his own skin. It's not a bad argument. Yep. He said that Marshall shook his head while his sons sobbed and cried audibly before turning around in his seat to smile at them. Whereas before, they had always offered their father support and acknowledged the I love you signs Rob had penned on the backs of manila falders that he held up to his son so he could see.

By the last day of the trial, Robbie, Chris, and John kept their heads down and none of them made eye contact with the father. They do not love you. They do not please love me. So, verdicts come in. They both have to come in here. Verdicts come in. This is a day and a half of deliberations encompassing six hours and 38 minutes. Yeah, it's good.

Okay. It's fast. Larry Thompson, he's up first. Larry Thompson, for the charge of murder here, up for the death penalty. He is found not guilty. Really? Not guilty. The only evidence they have is McKinnon's word.

Oh, my God. Thompson smiled, shook his attorney's hand. The judge told him he's free to leave at any time. He crossed the court, shook hands with the prosecutor which is a ballsy fucking move sure is sorry about it grabbed his wife and fucking took off later um wow later on when outside the courtroom when mckinnon was asked why thompson named him the shooter he said i have no idea he knew me well enough I guess to know on any given day where I was at if it hadn't been for the circumstances

surrounding this I wouldn't have even known where I was at at any given time I could have been at the lake fishing or something what they said did did McKinnon kill Maria and he said I have no idea I really don't everybody knows as much about this as I do

he said just what they read about in the papers and heard about it on tv that's all i knew about it from the start and that's all i know about it now other than what was in the discovery there's nothing in there who said who killed anybody holy shit yep so they said that he was headed for a van they asked him how he liked new jersey and he said i don't know i ain't seen enough of it to know i'm leaving i talk like i'm from here but i ain't seen enough of it so then it's rob's turn oh my god they find rob guilty of first degree murder yeah because there's too much split decision yeah oh it's all he's got all sorts of everything they said at this point his eyes rolled back in his head and he collapsed point his eyes rolled back in his head and he collapsed oh my god yep and as he's leaving what they said he's being put into the ambulance and his son christopher is trying to talk to him

as they're closing the ambulance doors he's going dad dad thinking he's dead in there his his son said quote what can i say we wanted our father home. How's that? We didn't get him. Really? He said he still believes in his father. He said people were saying all along that we were here for my father, but we weren't. We were here in memory of my mother. We were here just as much for her as for him. He feels the same way about it, that we were here for her.

I feel the same way now as I did when my mother was killed. And he said that his family would be tracking the fate of McKinnon, who was promised a five-year term as well, and he'd be making sure he does sometime. So McKinnon's gonna do five, that guy gets nothing, his dad's gonna do however much they sentence him to,

and that's it? We'll find out in a second. And that's it. Everybody else is... Holy shit. Okay, now, Rob, here, dad, he gets to the hospital hospital he found out nothing at all is wrong with him of course not yeah um so he's returned to the courthouse at 1 30 to commence sentencing because sorry asshole so the jury here is asked by the defense attorney to impose a minimum 30 year prison term that's the lowest he can get. Oh, shit. They said that, look, he's an insurance guy,

unblemished record. He's got tons of civil activities. He chaired the local United Way campaign, for Christ's sake. Give him a break here. The prosecutor said that Maria Marshall had no prior criminal record either. Maria Marshall was civic-minded, and this defendant did not give her

the option of 30 years. Great point. So the aggravating factors are the circumstances leading up to the whole deal with all the hiring and yeah the mitigating factors are quote Marshall's reputation as a citizen

which means who gots here is that a reputation just means what people think. So here we go. There is only two outcomes possible for Marshall here, and that is life sentence with eligibility of parole after 30 years or death by lethal injection. Oh, shit. Jesus, God. So a jury takes 90 minutes to come back and say, you, sir, may fuck off death penalty.

We recommend death. That guy, innocent. You you kill him send him home with his wife you you're we're killing him big difference oh boy he becomes the 18th person on new jersey's death row they grant it they oh yeah he's he's death penalty that's what they got that's what he got so he's the 18th person here um Yep. He said that he said to his brother, Paul, take care of John because John's only 16, his son. That's it. Outside the courtroom, a friend of theirs, a friend of his spoke about this. He said this was a woman. Her eyes were welling with tears. She asked not to be identified. I'm sure he was having sex with her, though. She said, I'm just shocked.

I don't know. It's just the impact of it. I know he's guilty. I know it. But when you hear it like that, the family, you just have to feel empathy for them. When you hear it like that. When you hear it like that. When you hear it like, you deserve death for this. It really hurts.

Yeah, it's great. She said, for a moment here, she said the impact of the murder and trial has had on her community and the Toms River Country Club as well. Uh-huh. Yeah. Where the woman and the marshals became friends. She said, quote, we have nice people there. Nobody could believe that something like this would happen. Really?

Yeah. They said, what would have happened? What would Maria, what would she have thought of all the events that happened after her death which is a weird question because unless she died they wouldn't happen i don't know what that means he she's she said quote it would have killed her which is the funniest funniest fucking response you could give to that if she didn't die then she would have died afterwards that's what they were looking for, right? She was a goner. Just come on, say it. Come on, say it.

Oh, my God. It would have killed her. Yahtzee fucking got it. And then she said, quote, who would believe it? We know a murderer. Who would ever think it that a friend is a murderer? Maria's family, they speak out here. Oh, yeah. Her mother, Helen, was disturbed that he lied

about all this stuff and she said my husband and i are very very upset i've been upset ever since maria died which is fair during the trial here a week ago her dad dr pozinski suffered a heart attack during the trial he couldn't take it, which is, that's tough. They said if the jury's verdict in convicting Marshall of conspiracy, conspiring to kill her daughter was fair. She said, I don't know. She doesn't know.

Great point. She also said she was uncertain when asked if she believed Marshall was responsible. She said, I don't know what happened. Someone killed her. Yeah. Yeah. They said that Marshall,

that Marshall told her that, and her husband, that the newspaper reports before the trial about him having an affair were untrue during the trial, though he admitted to having an affair. Obviously, she said he wasn't telling us the truth. He said he didn't have a girlfriend. Yeah, no shit. So anyway, a friend of theirs here, he says that, look, Rob probably killed his wife. This is fucking great. This guy's from philly he goes but not for a broad he said quote rob was always with other women women didn't mean that much to rob money did whoa that how about that saran and all the broads in florida how do you feel now how do you feel exactly he said whether it was with the tennis the parties or plying people with booze control control is something Rob always had to have.

And when he didn't have it, he found a way to get it. He couldn't divorce Maria. That would have led to other possibly messy legal complications. So we found another way. Wow. Yep. They also said he was absolutely obsessed with Saran. I don't think, though, that he would have ever been able to confront the family and say i don't love you i'm leaving so like rob always did he looked for

another way to get around it it had to be saran another acquaintance said because um you know all that kind of shit so in the days and weeks uh that one friend said all he ever heard about was saran saran saran that's all he would talk about so in the aftermath here, Robert Cumber is tried for his part in the murder. Yeah. In June of 86, he's offered a deal in which he would go free after pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit insurance fraud. But what? This is from a murder charge. He'd go free.

No jail time. Wow. He says, no, I'm not taking your fucking deal. He'd go free. No jail time. Wow. He says, no, I'm not taking your fucking deal. Yeah, let's go to trial. Fuck you. So they went, okay, fine. Yeah, and then he said, you're going to convict me. If you do that, I'll file a lawsuit for false arrest, all this shit.

Instead, he's found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and sentenced to life in prison. guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and sentenced to life in prison. He went from no jail time, you're done, to life in prison in fucking Louisiana. Whoa, Jesus Christ. Yeah, because he did it on the phone. Yes. Wow. In 2006, he received clemency after serving almost 20 years of his sentence. Oh, no, he served it in New Jersey, though.

He returned to Louisiana, and he was blind in one eye, and he said no one but his wife and daughter would still talk to him. Good. His wife stuck around for 20 years. Billy Wayne McKinnon testified in that trial. He was then sentenced by Judge Greenberg to five years in prison but served only three months after being paroled in accordance with his plea

agreement. Unbelievable. Jesus Christ. And he was present. He was absolutely present, right? Oh, absolutely. He then entered the Federal Witness Protection Program, but stayed in it for only two weeks because he found it constrictive and it cramped his style, he said, so he went back to Louisiana. Saran

resigned from her vice principal position shortly after all of this. She and her husband reconciled, and I shit you not, opened a chain of Blockbuster video stores. I hope it bankrupted her. No shit. No, in the 80s, she killed it. Yeah, she killed it. But then eventually, they left New Jersey and moved to Florida. So they probably sold them all.

They probably made a fucking fortune. She has Blockbuster video money. How crazy is that? Unbelievable. Right on trend, though. Yeah. 1987, Maria's father, Dr. Vincent Pazinski, suffered a heart attack. Then he recovered.

He said he planned to look after his grandsons and protect them from their snake of a father. But in February of 1987, he suffered a second heart attack that was fatal. So he's dead. And then Maria's mother, Helen, died in 1995 after living for about six, seven years with senility. Jesus Christ. Poor thing. Larry Thompson. Yeah.

After being acquitted, he had driven to the Marshall home in Tom's River to get his wife's belongings. While there, he talked to the press assembled outside wearing a red philadelphia phillies baseball cap he found it inside and just put it on it was maria's he stole maria's hat what a dick what a dick you can't just take people's shit here after returning to louisiana him and his wife filed a 50 million dollar lawsuit against the prosecutors and the investigators for the violation of his civil rights by malicious prosecution and wrongful arrest. Following

a two-week trial, they said, go fuck yourself. You're not getting a dime. He wrote a letter later to John Marshall, Maria and Rob's youngest son, telling him that he was welcome to come visit the Thompson family or even live with them if he wanted to stay down there for a little while. What?

He didn't. Yeah. Okay. 1989. A book called Blind Faith by Joe McGinnis comes out and becomes a huge bestseller. Yeah. Because this is a fucking wild story. Yeah.

They called it In Cold Blood, but like the upper class fucking marriage version of it. Even Colder Blood. Well, In Cold Blood was real. Yeah. Even Colder. We had an episode called Even Colder Blood. Right. Because it was, they imitated Truman Capote's book on purpose.

Oh. Writer Joe McGinnis attended the trial. He published the book, became a bestseller, and then was adapted into an Emmy nominated 1990 miniseries. What? Of the same name starring Robert Yurik. What? Robert Yurik. You know who he is? No.

He was on that one show. You'd know him if you saw him. He was an 80s action star. I never watched the show. Action star? Not action, but he was on a TV show where he was like a detective or some shit. I don't know. Whatever. And Joanna Kearns, who's the mom on Growing Pains. Oh, yeah. I don't know. Whatever. And Joanna Kearns, who's the mom on Growing Pains.

Oh, yeah. Is there. Yeah. Also more people because we'll talk about this here. Oh, yeah. There he is. Yeah. You see him.

Focuses primarily on the three children, Robbie, Chris and John here. The executive producer bought the rights to Blind Faith before McGinnis had even finished the book. Wow. They said it'll be very accurate because Robbie Marshall, who has a degree in communications, asked to be a part of the project and has worked as a consultant on all phases of production. It's super accurate.

It's accurate. Robert Urich said, he was at my side to say, you know, my father was very nervous. The ice cubes began to shake in the glass when he was questioned about knowing a man from New Orleans. So he was giving him like like, just little tips here. Now, the Marshall sons, Robbie, he had moved out to California,

served as a consultant for the miniseries. While there, he became close with actress Joanna Kearns, the mom on Growing Pains. Probably a mother figure type of deal. She portrayed his mom, too. She portrayed Maria. She introduced him to her on-screen daughter, Tracy Gold, who played her sister on fucking Growing Pains. Yeah. And they ended up being married in 1994 and have four kids together.

And they're still together? Robbie and Tracy Gold, yeah. Wow. That's weird. And she had all those eating disorders. Yeah, she had all kinds of issues. But this whole time, she was there. She's been married to that kid.

He works as a teacher in California. That's what he does. Hilarious. Chris Marshall graduated from Lehigh. He was the varsity swim coach there before becoming Cornell University's senior vice president of alumni affairs. Wow. becoming Cornell University's senior vice president of alumni affairs. Wow.

John Marshall, he thought his father was innocent. He was the young one at the time. He was only 13. He married at 17. Who did he marry? And who knows? And became a father to a daughter that was given the middle name of Maria. He's, of course, now a divorced father of two.

And he continued, though, to support Rob through the appeals process. Fascinating. Yes. 1991, state Supreme Court or the state Supreme Court, yes, upheld Marshall's sentence. This is after the state Supreme Court of New Jersey had reversed 27 straight death sentences. They said, you, fuck you. We're leaving yours. Yep.

They called the prosecution's case weighty and compelling so um yeah he said they had to take a position on the death penalty and they chose my case to do it with because i'm a white middle class guy they didn't want an indigent they didn't want they didn't want a poor black defendant to be the first one oh my god you're also a huge asshole yeah he did a 2001 jailhouse interview as well and it's just a load of shit it's a huge load of shit he said i'm trying not to say that i didn't do something stupid but i had nothing to do with my wife's death i feel responsible for it of course because if i had not messed around blah blah blah that's the whole interview had i not hired a man she'd be alive yeah it's fucking ridiculous

they said well what do you do here um he said he spends time with his cellmate jesse tim aquendaz who was sentenced to death for raping and strangling a seven-year-old what do you do we read and watch tv and write well he sounds like a lot of fun that guy i can't wait to sit in a fucking room with that guy forever. Jesus Christ. Holy shit. That's worse than anything else. So, yeah, they go on. They also said that he has a website around 2002 for people who think he's innocent.

Supporters of Marshall here. They have a website. You can make donations. The Canadian Coalition Against the Death Penalty sponsored the websites, as they do for numerous death row inmates. Whether you did it or not, they don't care. So the website, which was last updated in 2002, featured an anonymous letter that indicated McKinnon lied about Marshall's

involvement and county investigators helped him prepare his confession. So it was ccadp.org slash Robert Marshall. That was the website. Rob comes out with a book in 2002. Oh, boy.

A book called Tunnel Vision, Trial and Error. Uh-huh. It's an attempt to show that he was framed and not guilty, as it was. Oh, man. Now, Son of Sam law prevents him from profiting from this, but it doesn't prevent his son his son John from publishing and marketing it and making the money off of it. That's what happened. Yep, that's exactly what happened. So in Tunnel Vision, he writes that she cried out, oh my god, as he was

hit from behind and when he woke up that's what happened. So he does that kind of shit there. He also maintains that it was his wife who said to pull over in the picnic area. Oh. That's it. He said it was his wife. I to pull over in the picnic area. Oh. That's it. He said it was his wife.

I didn't even want to pull over. I just do what my wife says in putting us in endangered spots. Yeah. It's fucking. She says pull over in the darkness. You got it, babe. Yeah. There is a guy named Robert LaTorre who's a Seaside Heights publicity director.

He said that he's been visiting him for some reason. And yeah, he said he doesn't think he got a fair trial. He said, I don't know if he's guilty or innocent, but it sure does stink. They never looked for the gun. The tire was cut, according to the police. Yeah. So it's all bullshit, he says. He goes, quote, he may be a son of a bitch, but I didn't know being a son of a bitch was a capital offense which is a great line by the way that's a great line uh robert in his appeals

here he sits on death row for 18 years and then in 2004 he is granted a new sentencing due to a federal court decision regarding inactive or ineffective assistance of counsel on his case. So they say you got ineffective assistance of counsel. So you, sir, are resentenced to 30 years with the possibility of parole in 2014. Okay. Now, Larry Thompson returned to Louisiana after all this. Yeah. He ended up returning to his crimes because in 2003, he's convicted for his part in an armored car robbery and the

attempted murder of a shreveport police officer oh that'll put him in jail forever in 2014 at the age of 71 after serving 12 years of his 50-year sentence he admitted that he was the trigger man that shot maria marshall what a scumbag they can't try him for double jeopardy but he fucking admitted it he tried to sue the state over that. Wow. He told this to a retired chief from the Ocean County, New Jersey prosecutor's office. What a dick. He admitted his witnesses, including his wife, son, and brother, who claimed he'd been in Louisiana at the time of the murder, had lied on the stand to give him an alibi.

Well, what about that? He said that he simply answered, yes, yes i did to the questions he said he fired two gunshots that killed her and all that he said that there was no the prosecutor said there's no legal avenues we can pursue because our laws say we can't fucking pursue this but you know it might give people some closure anyway to know this he also admitted to a bank robbery 33 night depository box robberies three-arm car robberies and burning down two businesses, a former meat market and a residence in Louisiana. Oh, he also offered up the solution to a 1979 cold case for which he had long been a prime suspect, where a 32 year old woman named Deanna Montgomery had been sitting in the passenger seat of a car driven by her husband when she was killed by a shotgun blast to the back of her head.

She was a pretty blonde whose husband had taken out huge life insurance. Same exact situation. They also at the time thought he was involved, but he said he was in Montgomery with friends and they couldn't prove it. Wow. So he was sentenced

there. He also confessed to two other murders. Larry Wayne Lester, who he shot to death on June 15th, 1988, in Dolet Hills, Louisiana, and Chester Chester Underwood, who he also shot to death on June 25th, 1979, in Harrison County, Texas. Bad man. He then said, I'm not going to give any more details, but that's not all of them. I've killed a lot more than that. I'm sure, yeah. He's a hit man is what he is. Within days of all of this, and he had gone to the, wow, he had gone to their house and wore Maria's hat and everything. Yeah. A piece of shit.

And offered the kid to stay with him. Scumbag. One of the kids, one of his sons, meaning Rob's son, said that he had heard that his father got remarried in prison by some woman who was infatuated with him after the murder. But the Department of Corrections says that he never got married. So we don't know. 2012, he wants his sentence to be reduced, Marshall does, complaining in court documents that he suffers from, this is a list, diabetes, hypertension, dementia, hemorrhoids, athlete's foot, and a post-nasal drip. I shit you not. That's in court documents.

My ass, my feet, I got a drippy problem. Also, these things, I don't know where I am. The nose is just, that's hysterical. That's hysterical. That's the funniest list of things ever. If it helps, my nose is just... Oh, my God. That's hysterical. That's hysterical. That's the funniest list of things ever. If it helps, my nose is dripping. I got a little drip happening. It's annoying.

You know what I mean? A little Synex or something. I got to take care of that. Oh, my God. So for his parole hearing, his son Christopher testified on behalf of the brothers and said, we feel he should stay in prison forever. Wow. Okay.

Now, there are tons of letters came into the parole board too, unsolicited from the public. Just people who knew. Hang the bastard. That would be too good for him. Fuck that guy. A couple people said they should let him go. A couple people said, no, let's let him go. I think Robert served his time and should be paroled, one woman read about here.

They said, why should other people get off when he gets away with it? So they think he's going to get paroled here. And then February 21st, 2015, he fucking drops dead. No parole for you. Yay. The drip was too much. That's it. He had a stroke and poor health.

He's 75 and he died. I hope he drowned on the drip. That much that's it he had a stroke and poor health he's 75 and he died I hope he drowned on the drip that would be amazing that's incredible my lungs are filling up the prosecutor said it's obviously one of the most sensationalized cases I've been involved with

now the guy who saw the car pull off the road and didn't go help he said my first impression was that the man got out and opened the door for his wife. That drew my attention. He said that I asked him later. He watched a man at one of the tables placing bets without sitting down. That man was McKinnon. I asked him if the spot was open.

And with a southern accent, he said yes. McKinnon was the only person who looked suspicious a little bit like he was watching a little. He wonders whether things would have turned out differently if he had stopped at the picnic area. He considered it but remembered Marshall was acting weird in the casino and continued on home. He just shot you too, man. That's what I mean. He said, if I would have pulled off and went behind them, they might have aborted it. On the other hand, they might have done it some other time.

So who knows? A lot of this came from a very good article that I had information that other people didn't have called The Shooting of Maria Marshall on Medium.com by Laurie Johnston. So I have to give credit where credit's due there. And also good job by Allison here on this one. So there you go. That is Tom's River Township, New Jersey. What a place. Crazy story. If you enjoy that story, tell the world about it.

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Jimmy, sing me the names of these people. I want to hear them at the top of your register. Sing me the names of the most wonderful goddamn people on the face of the earth. Hit me with them now. This week's executive producers are Bethany Komenine. I don't know. BK. That's her name. B earth. Hit me with them now. This week's executive producers are Bethany Comany, I don't know, BK, that's her name.

BK, thank you BK. Kyle Norwig and the Lewiston Police Department. His cousin's a Lewiston police police. He's a police. And everybody in Maine. Mainers, remain safe. Thinking about you. Other executive producer James Smith in Virginia.

Susan Sauer, happy birthday. Giving it to us both ways. Thank you, Susie. Aaron Thompson, you guys are what make this world. You better thank her more. Anyone who gives it to you both ways, thank her more than that, first of all. But we thank you for your donation, Susan. Happy birthday. Other producers this week are

Lamont Sanford. Oh, you know who that is. Big dummy. Ned Braden, rising hockey star. I believe that's from Slapshot, right? Absolutely, yes. Liz Vasquez, Maxwell Davis, Zach Bowles, the fucking trellis guy

I guess? But he says he's not the trellis guy. It's a different trellis guy. Figure it out. How many trellis guys do we have? Joey Nix, Scott Adonaisio, he's in Poughkeepsie, It's a different Trellis guy. Figure it out. How many Trellis guys do we have? Join next. Scott Adonaisio. He's in Poughkeepsie. Janice Hill.

Harry Cockburn. Sharon Jones. Aaron would know the last name. Harry Cockburn? Harry Cockburn, James. Very mature. You happy now? You happy, everybody? Very mature.

Kim Trauger. Frankie would know the last name. Chris Fuentes. Mia B. Priscilla Moeberts. Moe Roberts. Mick Roberts. That's a C.

All right. Sammy Highsmith. Phil Baird. Jade O'Hare. Elizabeth Volk. Shane Hirschman. Hirschman. True Blue.

Lauren Jones. Emily McKenzie. Christina Ward. Kim Sewell. Sewell. Sewell, probably. Abigail with no last name. Carrie Redaglia,

Amber Bach, all right, Deb with no last name, Angie with no last name, Amethyst Rose, Connor with no last name, Oscar Gomez, Caitlin Bentley, Andrea Rose, Amber Nedgro, Nedro, Nedro, Amanda, Ned Rowe. Ned Rowe. Amanda Debrose. Debrose is a Debrose. Debrose. Debrosia. I don't know. Spencer Sorgan. Whatever the hell your name is.

Daniel Jesse. Graham Matthew Owetkin. Cordero Mack. Oh, that's the last name. Kurt Gaskins. I wonder if that is a. All right. That's a.

Maybe. Have you heard of Pee Wee? That's a terrible person. I wonder if that is a... All right, that's a... Maybe. Have you heard of Pee Wee? That's a terrible person. I wonder if Kurt's a member. Mike, the night logger by trade, noble. Colin Stitcher, seesha. Ann Shepard Young, Matthew McCoy. Gigi with no last name.

Jim Matthews, Andy Miller, Bunny469. Oh, is that right? What was that? Bunny469. Oh, is that right? What was that? Bunny469. That was somebody's – it was a name of somebody. But that's who it is, Bunny469. She'll do it. She'll do it.

Abby with no last name. Chris Finch. Lisa Alanis. Alanis. Charles Jewell. Lori Lee. Matthew Caruso. Stephanie Bales. Jordan with no last name. Columbo Cain, Gabrielle Prohl, maybe Ricky's kid, Willie Reed, Angel Klages, Hannah Martin, McCleasy with no last name, Laura with no last name, Lisa with no last name susan gahant gahag again gah again colin o's or

zini uh lisa taylor uh cindy greenig tyler miller cat van dam scotty oh gaviel i think tim tebow james oh tim tebow i don't believe it for a second but well no it could be someone else it might be yeah sarah taylor like us because we hate him i specifically uh despise for tearing down i don't care about football i'm just tired of hearing from leave us all alone tim sarah taylor aaron swank grindstone donkey jr sienna montgomery uh gary oats todd polling ethan roving Roving, Stephen Perez, Zoe with no last name, Michelle Villata, Vincent Maycock, maybe. think p gabrashak uh jared jara sturdivant wilson jonelle janelle uh liz liz jones jen with no last name jenny b ebony gonzalez daniel tay oh tatich tatich uh cecil with no cecile cecile with no last name tanya schmidt this show brought to you by the letter d stephanie with no last name david kobe uh shaunt shawnee boswell eric maxwell katie with no last name. David Kobe. Sean, Shawnee Boswell. Eric Maxwell.

Katie with no last name. Cherie Boateng. Andrea Baker. Ashley Smith. Anita Cocopinio. Yeah. Cocopinme? Oh,

Cocopinme. Good for you, Anita. I like how you tried to pronounce it like it was a fucking Spanish name, though. Then I figured it out. Cocopinio. I coughed you up.

Vicky Duggan. Caitlin Copra. Spra sparks with no last name nick with no last name geniata alex uh kingsley carrie c jessica davis clayton whitmore gavin fitzgerald nicole brooks brian stetfeld staff stafelt uh stafelt uh Casey Davis, Kerry Isaacs, Keon Weems, Jordan Shebley, Tasha Larson, Mary Jeffers, Chris Weber, all right, probably not. Tay would know last name. Hey, listen, fucking time out.

Time out. Amber Meeker, Lori would know last name. Jody would know last name. Joe G94, Zach Wolf, Casey Mullen Hannah Birchfield Elizabeth Putney Kelsey Strach Chris Russell Daniel Lawrence Colin

Smith JC Sarah May Suzy Sauer oh that's Suzy again Dylan Derringer John Lorien oh boy Taylor Dykoff. All right. Maybe.

Carol Laufer. Lothier. Lothier. Lothier. All right. Lisa Klingin. Michael McCall. Wilcox.

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