Small Town Murder - #444 - A Tale Of Two Sisters - McLean, Virginia

Episode Date: December 2, 2023

This week, in McLean, Virginia, a frantic 911 call, from an out of state boyfriend starts an investigation, where a mother, and her adult daughter are found dead, in the same house. What initially looks like a standard murder/suicide, turns into a crazy plot, involving some wild staging, and very incriminating phone calls. The killer claims innocence until the very end, but the evidence was just too strong!Along the way, we find out that good bands play longer than 20 minute sets, that even rich people apparently have problems, and that even when the explanation seems obvious, there may be more layers to that onion!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay!

Choo-choo! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you for joining us, everybody, on another crazy, crazy edition of Small Town Murder Express. As you know, it comes fast and furious in this little

episodes, in these episodes here. Can't wait to get into it. Very quickly before we start, shutupandgivememurder.com is the place to get everything. Merch tickets, last live show of the year. If you're listening to this when it comes out regularly, it is tomorrow night in Dallas.

Hurry up! I don't know if there's any tickets left by then, but a few tickets are left there. So come see us in Dallas. And this month, December, we will be announcing our 2024 tour schedule. Can't wait to do that. So thank you so much. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get the bonus material. Anybody, $5 a month or above, you're going to get it all.

You're going to get the whole, there's 200 back episodes of everything. The whole shit and shaboodle here. You're going to get everything. You're going to get back episodes. You're going to get new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder, and you're going to get it all. And this week, what we're going to get here for crime and sports, we're going to talk about roller derby. Oh, boy.

What the hell is roller derby? It was popular at one point is it is it wrestling is it who knows is it a sport let's find out we'll figure out what the hell happened with roller derby and do that so small town murder it's love after lockup time everybody one of the best times of the year this is a great season because yeah there's already there was somebody dead before it even aired. There was an in loving memory before the show, before it even came out, which is amazing. That's incredible.

In loving memory. Now let's see how it happened. Let's check it all out. So that and more and get everything and a shout out at the end of the regular show. All of that, patreon.com slash crime and sports. And by the way, you should listen to Crime and Sports, our other podcast.

It's very murdery lately. Trust me, you need need to do that and you should also listen to your stupid opinions our new podcast where we talk about some of the dumbest reviews of things you could ever imagine they called the grand canyon mid put it that way that's you know what i mean it's just a lot so check all that out can't wait and uh we will see you there that said let's get into this here i think it's time everybody to clear the lungs what do you say let's all sit back arms to the sky and let's all shout shut up and give me murder let's do this right. Let's go on a trip, everybody. Yes. We are going to Virginia this week.

And it's interesting because it's not that far from our express last week, which was in Maryland. Turns out the towns are pretty close by each other here. This is McLean, Virginia or McLean, Virginia. It's M-C-L-E-A-N. So McDonald's would call that the mclean i think if they made a burger that would be uh something made of that would be something yeah like a real that's their turkey burger the mclean

virginia this is at the tip top of the upper virginia panhandle that little hump that it has the camel hump at the top there uh the northern panhandle this is kind of the northeastern part of that almost maryland right near the border west virginia is near there there's a lot of different borders near here could get to a lot of places for quickly yeah it's about 20 minutes to washington dc so this is kind of a very expensive suburb of washington dc because it's only 20 minutes. It's a very nice place. 35 minutes to Dumfries, Virginia, which was our last Virginia episode. Shocking Brutality, Shocking Stupidity.

Or Stunning Brutality, Shocking Stupidity was the name of that one. I love that. Population of this town, 49,310 at the moment. It's gone up lately. Median household income here. Buckle up for this. In the rest of the country right now, national average is $69. Median household income here. Buckle up for this. It's in the rest of the country right now. National average is $69,000 for household income.

$242,610. The median income. Wow. That's middle class in this town. That's amazing. Who the fuck lives there? And then people. Lobbyists.

Lobbyists and D.C. lawyers and, you know, who knows. Median home price here, $1,186,400. I'd fucking murder, too. I get it. I just, I can't pay this mortgage. I'll kill everybody. You lose your mind trying to pay that. Oh, my God.

Holy shit. So history of this town. It was named for a guy named John Roll Mcclean i guess who's the former publisher and owner of the washington post back in the day back in the day there um along with the guy named stephen elkins stephen benton elkins and a and a french aristocrat jean-pierre genard in 1902 they brought the uh the charter for the railroad to go through here. So once this connected to D.C. by railroad, forget about it. The place was on. Is this Elkin's guy?

Is that the plumbing guy? It's got to be, right? Not Belkin, Elkin. Oh. Like an elk. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is that plumbing?

Isn't Elkin? Belkin is like electric and shit. Oh, I have no idea. Elkin is, there's Elkin, I think, yeah. I'm pretty sure it's plumbing shit. I don't know a lot about plumbing supplies. I got to be honest with you. Like Chevy Chase's dad, that kind of wealth.

Yeah, I don't know about wholesale plumbing equipment. That's not my normal area of expertise, but I don't know. I don't have a lot of expertise, and that is definitely an area where I don't have any. So reviews of this town, because we've never been here, so let's find out what other people think. Here's five stars. This person is clearly from another country because they say so. My experience at the high school is special

because it is the first school I have attended in the U.S. There you go. Oh, exchange student. Yeah. I felt that the students and teachers around me were very welcoming, which is why I was able to adapt and make friends easily. Okay, so the kids are nice to foreigners. That's good.

Nice to an exchange student. It doesn't say whether this is like a Swedish exchange student with double D breasts and, you know, who's bouncing through the hallways. Everyone's so nice to me. I wonder what they didn't say exactly. It's crazy how they carry my bag turns into american pie very quickly that's all it is the story of american pie here's four stars and they do pros and cons and list them in order of oh by number so i like the organization here yeah pros number one great public schools some private, not the best nationally, but great schools.

Okay. Two, close to D.C., Tyson's, a lot of grocery stores. Tyson's? Is that a grocery store? What's Tyson's? Mike Tyson's. You just go there and he punches you. Yeah, it's near his house.

Punches you, feels you up a little bit, and you go home. Feeds your baby to a tiger. Yeah, you know how it is. Eat your children. Three stars. Number three, mostly clean and very green. Number four, library and community center is good. That's nice.

Number five, close to a lot of parks. Number six, overall safe for families but is deteriorating. The crime rate is like less than half the national average here, by the way. Deteriorating. Yeah. Cons, a lot of cookie cutter houses no walkable or bikeable downtown no whole foods within town boundary but balducci's overpriced and sell out of date meat that sounds like i gotta look up balducci's for your stupid

opinions is what that sounds like i hear about this meat i want to hear about this out of date meat that's gonna be good yeah also how dare you gripe that there's not a Whole Foods nearby? There's not even a Whole Foods. This place is, like, totally ratchet. Like, it's awful. You are exposing your class, my friend. Two stars. Very congested.

Tons of traffic, and it takes forever to go anywhere. There are few sidewalks, which makes walking dangerous. Public transportation is encouraged and widely available through city buses and the metro. Yeah. Okay. Finally, one star. This person's laying it down. People in this area are snobs.

Well, they make a lot of money. They have million dollar homes, man. I wouldn't live in a place like that. The schools are way too hard schools are too hard what you mean they're good schools they make you do work and stuff it's totally weird they push the children to succeed crazy and the area is insanely expensive that's true my mom has a renter in our house because she can't afford to live in the crazy expensive house well yeah it's a million dollars.

Why'd she buy the expensive house? Yeah, go to a worse neighborhood. I couldn't get into any Virginia schools because my GPA at Langley was not good enough, so I had to go out of state, and now I have loans. Everyone here is very rude. Kids are so spoiled, including you. You sound spoiled. Yeah, you fucking asshole.

What, are you going to complain about Whole Foods at the end of this, too? You're dumb, too. Yeah, that's the other Are you going to complain about Whole Foods at the end of this, too? You're dumb, too. Yeah, that's the other thing. You couldn't even get into school. Some kids here are getting allowances of $500 a month because their parents are spoiling them. Okay. Okay. Well, that's nice.

They do that in Beverly Hills, too. That's just, yeah. You're in a rich place. That's what they do. What do you want? It sounds weird and like nothing foreign to what the two of us grew up around. I have no idea what that's like. No clue.

Allowance. That sounds incredible. I don't care if it's $20. I used to pocket my lunch money and keep that and spend it on something else. Man, things to do here. McLean Day. Okay. Need fun?

Come to the biggest annual festival. There's all sorts of shit. A hundred exhibitors, gourmet food, music, games, sponsors, balloon animals, a magician, a petting zoo, amusements, large and small carnival rides, and much more. What else is there? Sounds like that's everything you could possibly have. Also, things that we don't want to tell you about, like monster trucks. Yeah, they said trucks. Truck poles. Yeah. Oh, they said trucks. Other than live vivisection, I don't know what tell you about, like monster trucks. Yeah, they said trucks. Truck poles. Yeah. Oh, they said trucks. Other than live vivisection,

I don't know what else you could offer people. Live sex acts, what else could you offer? It draws 10,000 plus people, they say, through the day. Wow. There's rides and shit. Performance will be held throughout the day on a main community stage and a more kid-oriented juggler's stage

oh man uh here's like that sounds like circus it's kind of what it is there's like a here's um uh 1250 noah asher comes on low-key covers and originals it says is what he is 110 so he's got a 20 minute set these are like comics get out get get in and get out just to set your guitar up and make the sound okay all right get the fuck off now i didn't even play anything i just got my pick in place and everything's tuned though i got student loans you guys i need to play 110 hull which is an alternative rock band. Then, oh, my God, 140, Unruly Theater Project, the Alden's Professional Teen Improv Group. Oh, Jesus Christ.

Oh, no. Yikes. Then we have the Teen Character Awards, Kareel French, who does Broadway tunes and pop solos. And then Hull's going to come out for a second set at 345. Oh, they get two. And close this fucker down that's right no one's gonna follow them so they're gonna just a warm-up set to get you thirsty for more wow and

you there's a voting booth there where you can cast your ballots for the uh governing board election also for the oh and it's election day for the uh yeah i don't know what's going on this play that's you can't offer anything more than what they for the. Yeah, I don't know what's going on this place. That's you can't offer anything more than what they are. There's even voting. I don't know. It's weird. That said, let's talk about murder. I think that's less weird than what we just discussed. So let's get into this. OK, let's talk first of all about a woman named Pam. Let's get into Pam. Pam Hargan. H-A-R-G-A-N. Okay. That's her married name. She

marries a man named Steve Hargan, and they're going to have three daughters. Alright, we'll talk about that. Now, she's born in 1954, Pam. And later on, they're going to get divorced, her and Steve, and then you're pretty much not going to hear from Steve for the rest of the story. So Steve's pretty irrelevant

in this whole thing. Pam and Steve plus three. Now it's Pam and Steve. No, just me and Pam. Pam and three. I mean, three daughters. Pam plus three. That's it. That's it.

Yeah, it's a half a Brady bunch going on we got here. She's looking for, what was his name? I don't know. Mike. Mike Brady. Mike, there it is. Yeah. So Steve's going to disappear into the wind, basically.

He dropped some babies in her, and that's what his role in the story is. On his way, yep. That's it. So Pam, on the other hand, let's talk about them. Let's talk about their daughters. There's Ashley, Megan, and Helen are the daughters. Yep. And Helen is the youngest by pretty far, too, I think, by a few years.

Based on name, yes, she is definitely. Yeah. Well, Helen sounds like she could be the older one. Oh, yeah. Or she's hearkening back. Yeah. Like putting on those bell bottoms again today. You know Megan was born in, you know.

74 or 75? No, the 80s. Well, she grew up in the 80s. Megan was born in 88, I believe. Oh, really? Yeah, which makes sense because Sarah's sister's name is Megan and she was up in the 80s megan was born in 88 i believe so that's oh really yeah which makes sense because sarah's sister's name is megan and she was born in 1988 so i think i've aired 87 megan's a little bit older than me yeah around 77 78 70s through the early 90s megan was a pretty popular name i believe pretty big and ashley was a big name too because my cousin was born

megan and ashley were usually sisters my cousin was born in like 88 her name is ashley so they i got all that stuff so um and then helen is someone who was born in what 42 31 it's usually the mom of megan and ashley that's what it is but it said helen is the youngest daughter she wasn't born until 93 helen wow yeah um now pam and steve divorced Helen. Wow. Yeah. Now, Pam and Steve divorced when the kids are young. So mid 90s is they get a divorce. Pam takes them and they move around a little bit and they end up in Potomac, Maryland. Oh, so that's where they live for a while. Pam's very successful, very driven. We'll talk about her. She's what she do. Well, she's we'll talk about that in a second here. But they said that a neighbor of them of theirs in Maryland named Tammy said that Megan was very upset about this divorce when they got a divorce. Not happy about that.

This neighbor said she got to know Megan and her little sister Helen and would see them across the fence and that sort of thing. She said the girls were always out in the yard with the dogs and that sort of thing. And she said there was always a little sibling rivalry with them which is pretty normal um and she said that megan brought it up a lot saying that helen was the favorite helen's the favorite helen's the baby yeah what do you want yeah that's which yeah you're gonna get that so she said though they got along this was just like you know normal sister shit and um yeah she liked she liked the neighbor liked the family they seem nice pam and the girls here so pam her career she's huge in a uh in a career sense like that's what she really focuses on she is a vice president of lockheed martin at that point holy yeah she's

been working her way up nautical shit jesus she's been working her way up. Aeronautical shit. Jesus. She's been working her way up the food chain here for this for a long time. Playing the game, huh, in the corporate world. Works her way up to vice president of Lockheed Martin, which is a pretty impressive job. She's got. Yeah, there's probably 11 of them, but she's still one of them, and that's awesome. She makes good money, I bet. That's the thing. She builds up a lot here um she builds up an estate

worth about eight million dollars fuck not too shabby um what year is this this is well this is by 2014 she's built up that much more so from the time she gets a divorce and really works on her career she really you know yeah works her way up and she's doing amazingly. Everybody says she's very generous, too. She gives the girls anything they want. She's very generous with the daughters, helps them all the time. Yeah, it is. It's nice. So Helen kind of takes after her mother, very ambitious, the youngest daughter.

Yeah, she goes to SMU in Dallas, and she's double majoring in math and management science there so corporate stuff that seems like for management i don't even know that's so brilliant i don't even know where you apply it that seems like vice president of a corporation type probably yeah you know what i mean type of degrees that's what i just strikes me as like her mom probably told her that was a good idea for how to yeah wake her way in the corporate world both of those majors are outside of my capabilities and i have no fucking idea what she's doing where she's going imagine majoring in math in college oh that sounds terrible i would be awful at that i'd be so bad at that and then i quit on it junior year my senior year because

you have to take math all four years of high school. My senior year, I took consumer math, which is learning how to balance a checkbook. Literally plus and minus. That's it. Addition and subtraction. 18 years old. That's what I'm doing. Now, make sure to put your dollar store purchase in as $18.

You got to subtract it. Okay. Put the dollar sign or you get it wrong oh my god so uh 2014 she meets a woman named erin or young lady helen does at college helen's away at southern methodist and she meets a woman named erin and erin said when i first met her i was extremely scared of her of Helen. Of Helen? She said because she didn't laugh or smile, but she's kind of like an onion. You have to peel the layers off, and you really get to know the kind of genuine person underneath there. But that's how driven she is is she scares people to the point of like, Jesus.

She doesn't smile. She's a focused one there. Dead serious. Erin became very good friends with her. They studied a lot and all that sort of thing um helen works at a restaurant while she's at school down there for a couple extra bucks she's working as a waitress and um she ends up meeting a guy helen does down there working at the restaurant also now it's not a fellow student who's double majoring and some shit like that

it is a guy who's in his 30s who works at the restaurant that's all he's got so if you're in your yeah when you're in your 30s and you're because i i've done it and i know a million people like this and shit i was there myself you know what i mean so that's you're a lifer at that point there's nothing else you do really i mean she's possibly a lottery ticket if if we if I can get her to fall in love with me. I can get out of this. Yeah, hopefully. Or maybe just also had a genuine connection, but there's an over 10 year age difference and all that, which whatever.

His name is Carlos Gutierrez, the guy who works at the restaurant, and they fall in love with each other here. Her friend said they had plans to move in together. That's what it was all about they wanted to get married according to carlos they were ready to get married and um pam had started this is how nice of a mom pam is pam built started building a house for helen having a house constructed for her wow that is some shit that. You get done with college and your mother has constructed a house for you. She has gone and purchased two by fours for you. Holy shit.

That is insane. So that was in Northern Virginia also. So in 2017, Helen moves back from Dallas to the Virginia area to get ready to move into her home that was just built for her. Wow. Not too shabby. Now, according to Carlos, he didn't propose to her yet, but that was on his mind. He was going to propose to her pretty soon. That's how it's happening here.

He said it was just a matter of she didn't know what she was going to do with her career yet, Helen. She has these degrees and stuff, but didn't figure out exactly what route she wanted to take sure and um which i mean when you get out of college that's what you got to do you poke around and a lot of times what you think you're going to do isn't what you're going to like i know a lot of people who went to school for something we're all excited and then did it for five years and went i don't even fucking like this what was like yeah i just decided when i was 17 that that sounded okay now i'm 25 and i don't like this job or i'm 27 now and i don't like this fucking job and they have to start over it happens to a lot of people it's amazing it crushes her we are yeah we are forced to choose what our path is going to

be when we're so young it's like your your frontal lobe isn't even yeah isn't even done yet i gotta know what i want to do with it forever unless you have like a 47 inch vertical jump or you're like a piano prodigy or some weird shit like that which how what's the percentage of those people outside of that everybody else who just works for a fucking living you don't know what the hell you're gonna do you gotta decide between architecture and vet tech. Wow, that is wild. So now Megan here, let's talk about her. In 2015, she met a woman named Rebecca Wolf, who's going to be very good friends with her.

They met while Megan and her were volunteering in a program to find homes for dogs that were rescued from war zones. Unreal. Which is like, hmm, let's see see if you were writing a script and you said we need to make this character sympathetic like in a romantic comedy like she's really nice and she's great but her love life is bumbling or whatever what's the what's the thing that would show how nice she is what if she with animals some animals yeah that's good that's good like something with you know a homeless. She places them in homes. Rescues.

No, no, no. Not rescues. No rescues. How about rescues from people who died? No, better, better, better. I got something better. War zones. War dogs.

Three-legged fucking IED victim dogs. That's what we're looking for. Somebody in it said, what if the owner died? Well, what if the owner died in war? What if dog almost died in war? What if dog almost died in war? What if the dog crawled out of a house of rubble? What about that? Like half on fire and shit, and then Megan comes and towels her off and then hands it off to somebody who lives in the suburbs of Washington, D.C.

Here's a yard to run around in. An old person for the rest of its days. Car backfires, the dog picks cover not good but that's how that's as nice a thing as you can imagine here it's a nice find something nicer i dare you know what i mean that's pretty nice that's all i'm saying oh god so her friend rebecca said about Megan, she's very compassionate, generous heart, just a really good person. So it sounds like it. She said that Megan often talked about her family, how generous her mother was.

She said that Megan admired her mother's wisdom, her career, and she always spoke very highly of her and looked up to her. up to her and uh well her mom went through the fucking 70s and 80s working her ass off in the 90s to get ahead to get to a point where she's got eight million dollars so she's doing great for herself impressive she's doing and that's what she kind of self-made too and they they really you know they were impressed that she worked her way up the chain did that and got a divorce that's what i mean and since then it took her like 20 years to work her way up the chain did that and got a divorce that's what i mean and since then it took her like 20 years to work her way up to vice president so she unbelievable they're impressed with that so and also they she said she talked very well of her sisters also and she was especially close to helen her and helen are the close ones here so she said megan talked about helen struggling with

things and feeling depressed dude if i worked at a restaurant and double majored at SMU and doing all this shit, I would feel, I'd be overwhelmed. Never mind depressed. My head would be swimming. She said, but I never got the impression that it was an insurmountable thing. Just that, you know, Helen was having problems. Which is very normal for college age kids working. So, 2017. Megan, by then, she has an eight-year-old daughter named Molly, and they've been living with Pam while Helen, Pam and Helen's living there as well.

Helen's husband, I guess, is away in the military, I believe, and, or not her husband, I'm sorry, Megan's husband. Jesus Christ. Got it. Megan's husband, they're in the middle of a divorce at this point. Oh. But he's away. He's in the military. So she is staying with her mom.

And Helen is also living there while her house is being finished. Sure. So not bad. So that's the house. You got an eight-year-old. You got the two sisters. And you got mom there. So three generations.

She's gone somewhere else. Yeah, she's doing her own thing. She doesn't live there. So July generations. She's gone somewhere else. Yeah, she's doing her own thing. She doesn't live there. So July 14th, 2017 comes around. Yeah. All right. We've set the table. This 911 call goes as such.

Okay, here's from the recording. Dispatcher says, Fairfax County Police and Fire, which is where this town is. How may I assist you? Carlos Gutierrez is on the other end of the phone he says yes i have an emergency and he said i'm in dallas texas and my girlfriend lives in mclean and he says that helen he spoke to her earlier that morning and now he can't get in touch with her and he's worried welcome to the small town Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller available exclusively on

Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family.

But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Mor follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus and the wondery app or on apple podcasts okay yeah he said my girlfriend won't answer the phone and i'm thinking my girlfriend's life is in danger that's a wow that's a maybe she's dropped it in the toilet you know what I mean she's sitting in a bag of rice

right now like we have no idea she's had enough of your shit for today maybe she's had enough of your shit maybe there's a lot of explanations for why phone calls don't come or go or you know maybe she went out and fucking left her phone and dropped beneath her car seat she can't get it out who knows we don't know maybe she's dating another man that's her age you are you never know it Maybe she went out and fucking left her phone in a drop of neither car seat. She can't get it out. Who knows? We don't know. Maybe she's dating another man that's her age. You are. You never know.

It doesn't work at a restaurant. You never know. So the 911 dispatcher says, OK, what I need you to do is contact your local jurisdiction, file a report with them and tell them that Fairfax County requires a teletype in order to do a welfare check. What? So that's like three layers of shit. Rather than I'm calling, can you go over there? He's got to call Dallas PD and then they'll fill out a report and then they'll fax that

to fucking Virginia and then they'll get that report and then they'll go do a welfare check. Well, but here's the thing. We don't know you. We've hung out with those guys at the police jamboree that we throw every year so we trust that more than we trust you great hall rocked the house double set it was pretty hot why don't you give those guys a call and they'll make a whisper to us and we'll figure it out from there jesus christ so what kind of bullshit policy is that? That's crazy, isn't it? Isn't this public safety?

Isn't that your main baseline fucking job? Public safety. Get some reports filled out first. I don't know. We got other shit. Get somebody we trust. Wow. We don't know who you are and we can't take your word for it.

To drive all the way to someone's house and knock on the door? No, that seems like a bit too far. too far million million and a half dollar homes we can't just go knock on these doors yeah and this is too this was like a one scene this was like a 1.5 million dollar house in 2017 that they live in right yeah it's really nice we're gonna knock on doors there it's gonna make people question things it'll drive the property value yeah it's gonna the whole neighborhood will be mad at us so he's trying so now he's calling so he's supposed to call the other police now and figure all that out so call ends with nothing so he calls back 15 minutes later okay hi me again yeah they said you know fairfax county how can i help you and he said my girlfriend told me now he just comes out with this rather than you know i think my girlfriend might be in danger she won't

answer her phone his first thing he says is quote my girlfriend told me that her sister killed her mom now my girlfriend won't answer her phone that's there it is excuse me phone call you should have why did you say that the first time when fucking that would have been a thing oh you got to call them and they'll fill out a report hey my girlfriend said her sister killed her mom so maybe get the fuck over there okay thanks click what the fuck are we talking about heard there was one murder now there may be two yeah possibly two what do you think? The longer you wait, there may be more. That is wild. So they said, the 911 dispatcher here said, okay, well, this was out of the blue. Your girlfriend is sitting in a house with a dead woman.

And he says, yes. I don't know. I'm in Texas. I have a lot of questions here. And I think everyone, he does and the dispatcher does and no one has the answers. You know, I can solve this. Send someone the fuck over there. Get on site, please.

Let's give it a look. See what do we get? Jesus Christ. So he calls. They're saying, well, and they're thinking, too, like, why didn't Helen call if someone was dead? Why did she talk to you instead of the police? This is very suspicious. He said, quote quote i reported a murder

earlier and i didn't have the address now i have the address because he had to call back and say now i have the address okay wow so police arrive around 3 p.m and they go in and um yeah they're gonna find and we'll tell you the details here but they're gonna find pam dead oh boy and then they're gonna find helen dead too oh no yeah. And then they're going to find Helen dead, too. Oh, no. Yeah. Helen's dead in the house, too. What about that eight-year-old?

Well, we'll talk about that. Oh, my God. That's Megan's eight-year-old. So Megan lives there with the eight-year-old. Yeah. Now, the eight-year-old is not harmed at all. Okay. All right.

So the police visit now the next of kin, obviously, and say, hey, your mom was shot twice and killed and your sister's dead as well. And, you know, all of that. They they talk to they also first they notify Steve, who is the ex-husband and the father. Dad. And they say she had a gunshot wound. They talk about Helen. Two shots to the head of Helen in the mudroom. Or not Helen, Pam, the mother.

They said, Helen, she had a gunshot wound that appears to be self-inflicted. So they're like, that's what they told the father. This looks like a murder-suicide because she had a rifle resting on her with the stock between her legs, between her feet. So it looked a little suicide-y there. So that's not great. So then Steve calls over Ashley and Megan. Megan's the oldest. She's 34 at this point.

And 32-year-old Ashley. So they bring them in. She's born in 84. I'm sorry. It wasn't 88. I thought 88. So Megan here says what happened, what happened. And she then freaked out.

She said, what are we going to do? Oh, my God, this is crazy. Ashley said, our mom always took care of everything. We don't know what to do here. And Megan said, I just don't even understand. We were at the friggin house. Like the fuck how could this be she said she left the house with her daughter about 1 30 p.m that day and said there had been an argument between pam and helen who had been upset but megan said to the police helen has been so angry like just so angry all the time

and struggling emotionally and she said i knew that helen was was depressed but like to do this i can't even wrap my head around it like what the fuck yeah that's heavy yeah and they said that and she also said that she had helen had threatened suicide in the past and during bouts of depression as well she's talked about it and ashley said to the police also i know my sister was depressed the middle girl and uh they said has she ever talked about hurting herself the police asked her and she said yes so both sisters said she's depressed and also they come up with another thing here um they they say Megan says well that's true Helen is depressed and everything. But at the same time, they might have been attacked because I saw something the day before.

And that was two suspicious males that she said were casing the neighborhood. And she said that that's why she ended up bringing the rifle that Helen ended up having. She brought it upstairs herself. Megan did because she saw people casing the neighborhood. So she brought a rifle upstairs. So she said to protect herself. It's the.22 Ruger rifle found with Helen's body. It's that one.

So it belongs to Megan's husband. So Megan had brought it upstairs. She says that her mother allowed her to store it in the house until they moved into their own place because they were getting they were just buying a house in west virginia as she got a divorce as things were going on yeah yeah so she said my husband this is when they were still together for a minute she'll be divorced very quickly she said my husband and i just literally closed on our new home yesterday megan says my mom bought it for us so because if you build a house for helen you gotta fucking buy one for megan yeah so yeah she said was there they asked her okay helen's depressed but that makes sense for a suicide but why would she kill your mother yeah what is this this doesn't make any sense why was

why were they fighting so megan says to the police quote well she meaning pam she believed that helen was going to try to move carlos into the house from texas and my mom didn't want that oh she said i didn't build the house so you and your 35 year old boyfriend can fucking move in there so you can import this guy from texas and he can you know just sponge off of us the whole time. Not happening. So that's what she said. She said this morning, my mom let Helen know that she was canceling the contract on the house she's building her because she truly believed that Helen was going to try to move

Carlos into the house. So, yeah. Carlos is full. Well, Carlos, at the same time, they ask carlos now they go to carlos and they go what up with that and he says well megan killed both of them he says when i talked to helen helen said that megan just killed pam so megan must have killed helen too so megan did it all that's that's his story so ashley they talked to ashley and they go does that hold any water with you you're the middle sister you you know you know everybody better than anybody here

that hold anything and uh ashley said she would never do that ever never okay and would never do that that's what she said never okay that was her response her friend rebecca wolf also said that she said i do not believe that megan could kill her mom Pam or her sister no piece of me can believe that and she said that Megan called her on the day of the shooting and sounded like a destroyed you know puddle of a person who was just you know my sister my mother yeah yeah she had nothing to do with it because the the news of it was the reaction to the news of it was far above anything that she could fathom that's what she gets what she said she said she was very distraught and she did not give me details of what had happened she just said we've lost mom and helen that i find strange you'd think you'd say

somebody fucking killed her you know like that's weird but so by 8 p.m that night police are telling the media that this looks like a murder suicide becauseicide, because this is a big deal. It's in a very nice neighborhood. Fuck yes. Not a lot of police tape usually in this neighborhood, so people are a little curious. Well, the average house is $1.5 million. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. You better, there's questions.

All right, so let's get into the scene here, because that's going to be important, the actual evidence here. So the crime scene, the detective here, Julia Elliott, she's with this other detective, Byerson, at the scene. And they're looking through the evidence, and they arrive at the scene. Pamela's found shot in the head and lying in a pool of blood in the laundry room, shell casings strewn about her body, is the way they put it. So everywhere.

The detective said she saw Pamela's body first, and she said the first thing that caught her attention was Pam's cell phone. She said it's lying on top of the pool of blood and the blanket. Oh. Yeah. And the other, they said, she said it wouldn't fall on top of the blanket

and on top of the blood once you were already covered up. Yeah. Like, then how would it fall out of her pocket on top of everything where there's no blood? So she said, that suggests to me that it was placed there by someone. Somebody touched it. Someone murdered her, obviously, so that makes sense. So they said they went to Helen next.

Helen also shot in the head, found dead in an upstairs bathroom with the rifle placed between her feet and the muzzle resting on her stomach. Now, they said she had a lot of blood on her face. It was very hard to see until they got her in to the medical examiner. They couldn't really tell anything at this point what the fuck was going on. They said the butt was on the floor between her legs, barrel pointing up toward the ceiling. on they said the butt was on the floor between her legs barrel pointing up toward the ceiling and the detective said you would expect that if the rifle had been sitting there as she bled so heavily it should have blood on it that was weird covered in it yeah so that was weird no blowback on it from the strange on this on the none of it so yeah they said that's weird um and um they said

were there fingerprints on the rifle? And there's no fingerprints that were usable on the rifle also, which is a problem. They said there was DNA on the trigger, but it doesn't belong to Helen or Megan or Pam. I think it belongs to the husband who's overseas. So he's definitely not the murderer. So they do find Helen'sna is found on the rifle case near it okay that's found as well so here's another thing they find they said uh they're trying to figure it out but they said that um they were looking around and the detective said

i got a little nosy and i wanted to see what my victims may have looked like in life you do that you look to see how they live to see that makes sense of what could have happened so I weird way to say it though well yeah but you have to you have to know the murder you gotta figure out the victim who's the victim the victimology is a big part of how like the profiling works is but

why did that person just say during the investigation I found this I was investigating. Don't say I got a little nosy. Well, this makes sense because when the end of the sentence comes out, you'll understand. She said, so I pulled out one of the center photo albums to look at it. Because the photo albums don't mean anything for this. You know what I mean?

That's what I think she said, nosy. It wasn't like, oh, she wasn't measuring shell casings, distances, or anything like that. This was like, I was poking around, kind of just going off on my own. Got a little nosy and started sniffing their bras. Started just sniffing underwears and checking out the drawers and opening them, closing them. I want to know what they smelled like. Look in the medicine cabinets, poke around, you know, see what kind of moisturizer this

lady, because she looked good for her age. I'm not going to lie. Not bad. Not bad. She's using theirs. What is that? Avon product what you got i think it's a little oil of ole so she looks it up and inside the album of family photos was documents and they had megan's bank statement there was pam's these were folded up in there pam's bank statement a spreadsheet full of passwords and security verification details to unlock all of pam's bank accounts just stumbled

upon it just in there and um so they said that um at the time though the financial documents were not on the search warrant so she couldn't she couldn't take these so yeah she photographed the documents and left the house she got the proper search warrant came back this is after the scene's been processed and the house has been turned back over to the family yeah when she comes back they're not there anymore all gone all gone wow that's odd that's just got a little nosy and unbelievably i found this and now it's gone now it's gone so that's interesting now also uh the detectives get a little bit suspicious as they go a little more onto this they do test megan's hands for gunshot residue and photographer and everything but that's like way later in the day.

So they said she was in the house at some point that day, so they have to look into her. She's saying basically she left right before all this happened. And during her questioning, she did admit to having the murder weapon in her hands. Yeah, the day before she brought it up. The night before, but still she had it in her hands. Which also, her DNA, Megan's, was found on the gun case handles. Which she said, yeah, I was the one who took it upstairs. So, of course my DNA's on the handles. So they were like, okay, that's interesting.

So they also said this about Helen's phone. The victim here. Possible victim or suicide. Perpetrator, suicide person, I don't know. They said there was almost no blood on her phone. They said Helen had used it that day to talk and text with Carlos, but there's no fingerprints on it either. Oh.

I mean, who wipes their phone off every time they text somebody? That's not normal. Pre-COVID? Not even a chance. Yeah. Yeah, they said that in the lab they found what looked like swipe marks as if someone had taken their hand and wiped off the front screen like if you just take it you know so one big smudge at that point so now the autopsies

let's find out here okay uh the gunshot wound and on helen turns out that um it is on the top of her head wow which would be very difficult to hold a rifle between your legs and shoot yourself in the top of the head yeah and i don't mean top of the head like you know hits in the top of the head and then goes back i'm talking top of the head down bullet ended up in the bottom of the head and then goes back. I'm talking top of the head down. Bullet ended up in the bottom of like in her throat, like by her jaw. Wow. Here.

Yeah. That's, think about that. So absolute straight line down. So that's interesting. It traveled downward toward, downward into her neck, they said.

They said she would have had to hold it straight up and be able to reach the trigger to accomplish this. Impossible. And they said, the detective said, I've worked a lot of murders. I've never seen that before. Never seen anybody shoot themselves in the top of the head like that. It just doesn't exist.

It's not a thing. So yeah, they said at that point, they started thinking someone else pulled the trigger here. This is not them. So July 17th, 2007 or 2017, they found something else. That Monday morning, they got a message on their phone from Capital One. Yeah. Okay.

Bank employees had seen reports of Pam's death, because it's a huge story in the area. because it's a huge story in the area. And they said, we saw that she's dead, but we have this recording of this call that you might find interesting that came today. After? Yeah, and it was Capital One Bank. Can you tell me your name, please? Pamela Hanson Hargan, the caller says.

No. Holy. And they said, yeah, they said, what can we do for you? And she she said i was told i could do a wire transfer oh my this is a recording from the day of the murder by the way yeah um they said uh he was she's trying to do 420 000 out of pam's account and into a real estate settlement company in west virginia where me Megan's house is. And Capital One said, oh, you're going to buy a house? And she said, ah, for my daughter, yes. And then she passes through the security verification questions.

Yeah. And they said, all right, great job. Here we go. The transaction, though, didn't go through. So then the caller tried again the next day because that was from the day before the murder. Then the day of the murder, they call back and she says, oh, yeah, we attempted yesterday, but there was a bit of a mix up. So I'd like to do it again now. And she said they need it today.

And so they're trying to do all this. So the detectives are like, well, who the fuck is trying to steal our money? Because that's not Pam that did that. And so they're very suspicious of Megan at this point. So they talked to Megan and the detective asked her how she's holding up. And she says, I'm not really okay. No, not doing okay. No. Um, she says they asked her about the wire transfers and she said, oh, it must have been

some kind of mix up at the bank because yeah, she was supposed to pay that title company and blah blah blah um so he said he started to think that maybe megan wasn't telling the truth here megan said i realize there's a lot of confusion here she said helen has been so angry like just so angry all of the time over everything but megan said that her sister would never have killed her mom um or herself or her mom and herself. Any of the combination of those. She said, I can't imagine my own baby sister doing all of that.

That's that's crazy. She said, but have you looked into the strange men in the neighborhood? Anybody got a doorbell cam of some casing? We are looking for what strange man cased your house, murdered your parents and then tried to buy you a house. And then tried to weird guy. He was like was like i'm gonna buy that daughter a house i bet they need final payment from that title compound it's a very strange man you're right she said i had to call the police about these two guys other people had called about them too apparently now she's trying to say like so that gives her credibility but they said no one else ever called.

The police said when they looked on it and it was nothing else was reported. And the only person who ever mentioned that was Megan. So they're like, interesting. The only call that's made about these guys in the neighborhood is from Megan Hargan. So they said there's no nothing. The only thing they have here is Helen defied the laws of physics. Yeah. Or Megan killed her mom and sister.

That's what they're thinking. That's it. Nothing else. So then one day she the detective said she demanded to come in and get an update on the case, which that's a bad. Yeah. I want to know what you're thinking here. So July 19th, 2017, she thinks she's getting an update.

They think they're doing an investigation here. So, yeah, they bring her in and she says you know all this shit she said this is just unimaginable everything my mom was the best i could ask her for anything and um you know she all of this shit right she ends up staying here for more than four hours she thinks she's getting information in that four hours yeah and they said we would ask her questions that we would know the answer to. And she would either pivot to something else or just outright not answer the question for four hours. A lot of, you know, she they said a lot of long story short and the point I'm making is and like all of these weird things. Yeah. I don't

know what you want me to say. At one point, they said, we want you to tell the truth, just the truth. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people.

With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar.

Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed,

red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener.

Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one

and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on max or wherever you get your podcasts and the detective says oh i want you to just answer one question and um they said i'm gonna play a call for you and they play the tapes and it's the tapes to the bank yeah and they said who is that on the phone and megan said it's me tapes to the bank. Yeah. And they said, who is that on the phone? And Megan said, it's me. Oh. Yeah.

And they said, it's you, right? And they said, well, why would you do that? And why didn't you tell us you did that? And she said, because I knew how it would have looked if I told you. Well, how do you think it looks now? It looks way worse now. Just like Carlos, why didn't you tell us about the murder stuff? It looks worse now.

So he said, no, no, it's not how it would look. You knew that if we knew about this, it would shine a whole new light on you. And she said, I didn't kill anybody. This is crazy. I don't know anything. Then halfway into the interview, when they're just asking these questions, she just stops and says, you know what? Just blame me. She says, just blame me.

I'll just take the rap for it. Fuck it. I don't care. Do you know what that means, Meg? The cop said, just answer the questions and explain it. And she said, just blame me. Just blame me. Just blame me.

My family's been through enough. Just blame me so they can move on from this, okay? What does she think that means? Just sweep it under the rug. I'll just go away somewhere and it's fine. Dinner's ruined. Let's just go get somewhere and it's fine. Dinner's ruined. Let's just go get pizza. That's not how this means, lady.

Who's ordering pizza? Let's go. Wow. So they said it seemed as if she was acknowledging that we knew that she had did it without openly giving us detailed confession. She's just blamed me. I didn't do it, but I'll just take the blame for it. It's easier on everyone. It's easier for the rescued war dogs if I just take. I like to put it on

me. That's what I do at Christmas time, so let's just do it. And then she said, quote, this is not happening. And then they said, well, will you take a polygraph? And she said, absolutely, I'll take a polygraph. Not only did she take a polygraph, she took a polygraph three times said absolutely i'll take a polygraph not only did she take a polygraph she

took a polygraph three times and failed all three times so they're like huh um and then they let her leave that day really let her leave that day for some reason it's not it's inadmissible anyway we got to get evidence and we'll arrest her yeah well yeah he said but if you get a girl like that who's already in that position saying those kind of things she's it's it's you could tip her over evidence and we'll arrest her yeah well yeah he said but if you get a girl like that who's already in that position saying those kind of things she's it's it's you could tip her over it seems like you could make it work but i guess she didn't want her to lawyer up though that's the problem yeah she said fuck this lawyer then it's over with they got no then they can't get anything out of her and the detective said so murder investigations can be extremely complex you not only have to be

sure you have to be right and the decision is not only have to be sure, you have to be right. And the decision is not, does it just rest on me? I have to be on the same page as the Commonwealth Attorney's Office because they're the one who filed charges. So in consultation with them, we decided to wait. So she never got her money from her mom, but she and her husband used a VA loan to buy a different house in West Virginia. So that's how it worked. And that goes on. And the detective said, we kept an eye on her. We knew where she was and, uh, you know, things kept coming in. Um, by the way, her gunshot residue test that finally came back. So it showed she had gunshot residue on both hands, both hands.

Both hands. Oh, boy. Yes. Then finally, on November 9th, 2018, a year and a half later. Oh, my God. They do a press conference and they say, we're arresting Megan Harden, finally. Or Megan Hargen, finally. So, yep, they say we think it was a double murder made to look like a murder-suicide. And she tried to obtain money from her mom's bank account

she probably got caught they probably called pam and then this is happening so the prosecution said that helen called her boyfriend carlos hysterically crying at 11 30 a.m here's the timeline helen told him that megan had come into her room to say she just shot her mother before going downstairs somewhere on the computer and transferring funds that's what helen was telling carlos yeah megan then told helen that she shot her mother because she got court she got caught doing an escort deal and pam was going to take away her then eight-year-old daughter who also lived with them so she was doing like according to the sister yeah she was getting she was like doing shit on the side, escort shit on the side.

You don't mean escrow deal? No, no, no, not escrow. Mom does escrow deals. Megan does escort deals. All right. And she said that Pam threatened to take away her eight-year-old. Oh, my God. Say, I'm going to take possession of your kid here.

I'm going to go to the court with my lawyers and say that you're not an unfit mother because you're you know i didn't work my ass off to get up through lockheed for you to just do it the easy way like this no easy work hard too hey you know what sucking dick is never the easy way i would never call that the easy way you might be right that's a hard that's a hard way trust me me. That would not be good. It does show. Yeah. It shows how hard it is based on. You don't see a 60-year-old.

No. If I asked you, how would you like to make some money? Would you rather work at some company for 20 years or suck a million dicks? You'd go, Jesus, a million dicks? Wow. I guess I'll go to work every morning. Cubicle doesn't sound that bad. Good God. How many dicks 500s too many

think about a thousand dicks laid out end to end that's miles and miles and miles of dick it's so much so much dick so that's a lot of dick jimmy so then anyway they uh megan transferred uh nearly 420 000 from a different bank account the Capital One, a different one to the title company handling the closing for her home. So she got that money eventually. She then, Helen said that Megan returned back upstairs. Helen said, but this is what happened. Helen, Megan returned back upstairs and shot her sister in the head, top of the head, obviously. The video evidence shows Megan's car leaving the home at 12.58 p.m.

That's when they left, and Helen's boyfriend continued to receive text messages from Helen's phone after Helen was obviously dead. Prosecutors believe that Megan was the one who sent the messages, and that's what they're thinking here. Unbelievable. Yeah, we'll talk about exactly what they were, they were like i'm not mad at my sister anymore everything's fine shit like that i've gotten closure fuck mom yeah i'm over it i was hysterical crying an hour ago now i'm fine what an asshole megan is i'm over it yeah she's a real asshole so apparently that the capital one bank account pamela had put a freeze on it after being alerted by the bank. That's why she couldn't do that transfer she was trying to do.

Yeah. So they said we, the detectives here, when they do their press conference, they said, you know, they're obviously they were they were suspicious from the start. But it took a long time to get all the information. What a spoiled bitch Megan is. Yeah. A $400,000 house that mom is taking care of you on. And you're going to complain? And you can just wire half a million dollars to yourself.

No problem. No big deal. No big deal. Like you deserve it. Like you're owed. Fuck you, man. It is absolutely bonkers. So during the trial here, opening statements, prosecution, they tell the jury that the day before the murder and on the day of the murder, Megan tried to secretly steal $400,000 for a new house.

And then she killed her sister to shut her the fuck up, basically. Wow. That's pretty cold. They said this is an individual who murdered two of her closest family members for money. This defendant took that 22 caliber rifle and killed Pamela Hargan and Helen Hargan. And I'm going to ask you to find her guilty. Now, the defense says this is crazy. Helen's the killer.

Okay. says this is crazy helen's the killer okay yeah they said that she's been described by both sisters and other people as mentally unstable at times depressed at times they tell the jury that helen was furious at her mother for saying that if helen didn't break up with carlos the man she wanted to marry and move here that she wasn't getting her new house and the prosecution says though there's no evidence that helen was depressed even though even ashley said that she was depressed and had threatened to hurt herself that's the thing here so the defense says that no it's a murder suicide just like they said at first and uh that's it now the prosecutor said that no they said that they within days bias affected the

way they viewed every piece of evidence um and uh you know, at that point, that's what the defense says. But the prosecution says the evidence is just obvious. That's fucking crazy. So Carlos testifies. He tells the jurors that he planned on proposing marriage to Helen and that they hope to move in together in a new home in Loudoun County, Virginia, that was being built for Helen when she was killed. Oh boy. He says that he got the call that morning. Helen was crying hysterical.

He said that quote, Helen told me her sister had killed her mother. She sounded very frightened and scared. I could hear her mouth trembling. She was sobbing. She said she didn't know what to do. This is what she was concerned about. Carlos said she didn't know what to do because This is what she was concerned about, Carlos said.

She didn't know what to do because her niece was in the house, the eight-year-old. She was in the house for this. Think about that. This Megan is sick. That's sick shit, man. She's a bad woman, dude. This is a sick fucking person. So she was home, and she didn't know how to get the – Helen was concerned. She wanted to get the niece and get the fuck out of the house.

That's what she was trying to do. And she said, Carlos said he told Helen to get the fuck out of the house. Get out. So then more phone calls came after that. And then she couldn't get a hold of her anymore. So he called her over and over again. He eventually got a series of texts from Helen's phone, which he believed were being sent by Megan imitating Helen.

You can tell someone's cadence on text. You know them, especially your girlfriend, your boyfriend who lives at a state. You talk through text constantly. You know exactly how they talk. And one of them said, quote, everything is fine. I'm not mad at Megan. All good. All good.

Feeling better now. Yeah. Feeling better. Holy shit. all good anymore all good feeling better now yeah feeling better holy shit now in cross-examination of gutierrez the defense highlighted that helen never called the police she called you what the fuck were you gonna do about it um and also reads gutierrez his own grand jury testimony in which he said at one point that she told him, quote, Carlos, you just need to be quiet. Let me handle this. Don't call the police.

Which sounds suspicious, you know? Yeah, I guess. Well, if you were going to kill everybody, if you were going to kill your mom and try to get away with it, you might tell your boyfriend that your sister told me that she killed my mom. You just set up that as a thing. So that makes sense. And why would she say don't call the police that's just weird yeah looking from that side it's like why what why are you trying to handle this you should be in fear for your life

and that child yeah get the fuck out while you're calling the cops run on the way and die in one one as you're running yeah don't call me back until the cops are there. Yeah. Yeah. And so the defense says that Helen lied to Carlos as a part as a part of an elaborate ploy to frame Megan and then realize that she couldn't pull it off and just shot herself. Yeah. Megan also said that her mother told Helen that she was canceling the contract on her home. Megan said that was the reason. contract on her home megan said that was the reason the reason was because of carlos um the mother blamed carlos for getting helen into drugs oh which if you're if you're 30s in your 30s you work at a restaurant everyone i ever knew not all of you do but you know where to get them you can get it in two seconds the other guy who's next to you has it if you may be proxy holding because

you know where it is yeah and that's honestly yeah we've both worked at restaurants so that's not don't get insulted if you work at a fucking restaurant because you know it's fucking true how easy 30s working at a restaurant it's because you do drugs how easy can you get coke at a restaurant right now restaurant person get me some coke right now no problem know exactly who has it is your answer. I'm going to go knock on the kitchen door. So Megan said, I love Helen, but something has really changed in her over the last couple months. They bring up that that she said. The forensics said that they reconstructed Helen's death scene and testified on behalf of the prosecution that Helen's arm was not long enough to pull the trigger to make the bullet run that way.

A rifle. The barrel is 20 inches long. You can't reach up and get the trigger. But the defense says you certainly could with your toe. Okay. And that's where the butt of the rifle was. If you use your toe, you could do it. But the bullet didn't come from that way. And the experts said, yes, that is possible, actually.

She could have gotten that shot off with her toe. That's possible. They said possible, theoretically. To curl up, I guess, yeah. So the prosecutor, by the way, at one point when he's interviewed, he said, I think she's pure evil. She's a pathological liar, and that's what she is. So the detectives come in, talk about the bloodstains, position of the rifle. The detective said she didn't have an arm span long enough.

Her fingers couldn't reach the trigger. So, you know, they had a forensic animation, a virtual model of her not being able to reach the trigger and all that sort of thing. They said she needed about five more inches on her arm to be able to pull the trigger that way. So they said, no way. That's how that goes. They play the capital one calls um one yeah the day before the shooting the bank called pam and they said somebody tried to do a wire out of your account for 400 and some odd thousand dollars and pam said what i didn't do that oh boy so yeah now the defense here the defense is this it's all it's all helen she didn't call

9-1-1 she called her boyfriend she realized she couldn't pull it off she used her toe to shoot herself duh jesus christ how stupid is everybody here what are we fucking dumb so um also helen has no signs of a struggle either she's not hit at all she's not there's no signs of a struggle just a very clean which i mean she could have been bending over megan walked in the room shot her in the top of the head and that's it she fell down and then she placed her put the rifle between her fucking legs and that's that's the scene that's very obvious or possible ashley testifies the other sister and jesus christ she says i know my sister was depressed um and they play her tape of her saying that yeah she's talked

about hurting herself but then she testifies that she doesn't remember saying that on the stand oh ashley does she says 150 times plus that she doesn't remember certain things i don't remember i don't remember that's ashley's testimony why doesn't she want to be involved at all that's wild um they said you know she doesn't want to they said maybe she doesn't want to say things that are helpful to the prosecution is all it is or hurtful she doesn't know who knows so they said also she's a she was a victim of trauma and she might have – there's a lot for her. Maybe it overwhelmed her, possibly. But they said, yeah, she puts her head down, uses the toe to shoot the top of her head. So they said it's unlikely but possible, the experts say.

They said her legs are long enough that her toe could reach the trigger technically, but it's very unlikely. So the verdict comes in here jury deliberates for less than two days and they reach a decision and they find her guilty of yeah two counts of first degree murder two counts of felony use of a firearm here yeah now her friend rebecca says megan hargan is innocent really yes she said and rebecca said she's worked for the Justice Department for five years. She knows criminal trials. She's around them all the time. She said, I would not be comfortable sending someone to prison for the rest of their life without knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind that they did it.

That's not the law. The law is beyond a reasonable doubt, not a shadow of a doubt. Those are very different. Shadows 100%, reasonables is 70 percentish you know if you're gonna put a percent on yeah 75 three quarters if you have gunshot residue on your fucking hands yeah you fired a gun that seems like both hands and and yeah not on helen the blood spatter doesn't align up the phone thing doesn't make any sense. You fired a gun. You fired a gun. So in the appeal, she appeals, and they say that one of the jurors during the trial, Tasha Nix, went home on her own and did an experiment with her own.22 rifle to see if she could pull that off.

She did her own recreation, which she does not the same exact measurements as Helen and all that. So that's a completely irrelevant thing. So they said Miss Nix went home and used her own rifle to see if it was possible. She tried to hold the rifle and maneuver it with one hand. She tried to see if it was possible to hold the rifle without leaving fingerprints. Because that's another thing. No fingerprints on there. She tried to see if it was possible to shoot herself at the angle a medical examiner explained.

She decided she was unable to figure out a way to do that then when they did deliver so before the trial was over she had made up her mind already which you're not allowed to do then during deliberation she told all the other jurors that about this which you're not allowed to do it has to be stuff in the jury room they could have done it in the jury room they could have asked for the gun and done it. You can't do it there. So, yeah, they said that she then told all the other jurors about that. And obviously, that's not great. That's horrific. Yeah.

So they said a juror is not expected to check his common sense at the courthouse door, is what the judge said. He said that the juror could not properly receive any information about the case except in court and in the matter of law. And they said that juror 82 engaged in juror misconduct, albeit well-intended, and that there is sufficient grounds to believe that extraneous information might have prejudiced the jurors and can't have it. So they set aside the verdict and set a date for a new trial. Whole new trial. Whole new trial. New trial.

By the way, the public defender put it this way, quote, this is a tale of two sisters, which should be the name of this episode. Should it not? The tale of two sisters? This is a tale of two sisters, Helen Hargan and Megan. And he said, one of them killed their mother it's up to you to decide which one of these two theories you're going to believe yeah and the jury says oh we still believe the first it's guilty as fuck yeah she's guilty again

it is a tale two sisters one did helen things the other did megan the other did megan things yeah in the first trial she was you ma'. May fuck off life in prison. She got sentenced to this trial. She has not been sentenced yet. Really? Is the this trial just ended in September? She was found guilty again. Six years later. Six years. That's what I mean. How much longer can we wait for this? You know, so wrap it up. Wrap it up.s. Let's go. Let's fucking do this. She's going to be sentenced in January of 2024, probably to life in prison, I would imagine. But we don't know, obviously. She's guilty, though. Yeah. The last time the jury recommended life, judge gave her life. So we don't know. It seems super guilty.

If she didn't call Capital One and do that stuff, I'd go, wow, how the fuck do you convict her? Because there's, I mean, yeah, her DNA is on that, but so is that. There's no fingerprints. Well, lack of evidence isn't evidence. So, you know what I mean? She did a decent job of cleaning. That doesn't mean that she's, it just doesn't make, that phone call crushed her. Destroyed her.

make that phone call crushed her destroyed her yeah because especially the stuff with carlos and helen not calling the cops and calling him without all that stuff it looks like helen period but that gunshot man it's from the top that nobody does that nobody does but how do you you could have said i think she was murdered i don't think it was a murder suicide but you can't yeah prove megan did it at that point right it just doesn't mean that she did it. It just means somebody did it. But Helen saying that she did it and the eight-year-old was in the house, that's damning too, but... But it looks like a lie

the other way. Without those... It looks like he's batting it away. Yeah. Without playing those phone calls in court of her voice saying those things, that fucked them. That fucked her. You know what i mean it really did so anyway that's virginia so holy shit virginia coming strong this week with a twisty one holy shit it is for lovers if you like that show tell the world about it get on whatever app

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