Small Town Murder - #467 - Abnormal Acts Of Brutality - Valley City, North Dakota

Episode Date: February 22, 2024

This week, in Valley City, North Dakota, the suspects are seemingly endless, when a young woman is found, horribly murdered, with a knife broken off in her neck. Could it be her boyfriend? Her ex? The town weirdo? The town hermit, who lives in a camper? Maybe a strange neighbor, who couldn't wait to touch the body? A very surprising conclusion is made, leading detectives down a rabbit hole of one man's depravity!Along the way, we find out that Peggy Lee was apparently a singer, that no matter how weird someone seems, DNA will tell all, and that changing your name can't erase all the awful things you've done from existence!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Valley City, North Dakota, everyone is a suspect when a young woman is found horribly murdered. Was it the boyfriend, an ex, the town drifter, the local weirdo? Everyone ends

up being surprised by the answer. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today on a crazy edition of Smalltown Murder. As usual, this is one of those today where it's a real whodunit, and then they find out whodunit, and it's a, oh man, does it open up a huge rabbit hole that, you know, you're pulling all sorts of gross stuff out of. Wait till you see and it's a oh man does it open up a huge rabbit hole that you know you're pulling all sorts of gross stuff out of wait do you see it's a lot but we will get to that

definitely first though head over to shut up and give me murder.com right now i would suggest get your tickets to live shows they are for sale for the rest of 2024 and there are already two sold out and a couple getting close so So get your tickets right now. Sacramento, April 5th. San Francisco, April 6th. You are up first. You're on deck. Get those tickets.

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we're going to talk about a mobster who owned a football team. So that's a lot of fun. A guy named Paul Sasso. He owned a World Football League team, and he was just a gangster. It's hilarious. Then for small-town murder, we're going to talk about Natalia Grace, Hilarious. Then for small town murder, we're going to talk about Natalia Grace, the Ukrainian orphan who might have been six or 45 or who knows how old she is.

And, you know, based on what maybe she's a murderer, maybe she's just a poor little girl. We don't know. All we do know is that we do know. We'll talk about it. All we do know, though, is that the father makes tears pop from his eyes like they're shooting out of a family, out of a cannon. It's a very weird thing. Check all that out and more. Patreon dot com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show where Jimmy will go ahead and mess your name up for you, even though he wants to get it correct.

That said for you, he will do. That's the Jimmy Wissman promise. He'll try, but it's still fail. That's good. That said, it's disclaimer time. Oh, yeah. Listen, everybody. Two things. Number one, the stories are as real as they get. Insanely real. Every detail is real. Number two, we're stand up comics. We're going to we're going to make jokes. It's how for sure. It's how we operate in life and it's how we get through things. And for us, I think that makes the dark stuff a little bit more palatable at that point. I don't want to hear anybody darkly, then he cut her head off. That sounds creepy. Let's try to lighten it up a little bit. But we don't make jokes. The thing that we do, we don't make jokes about the victim or the victim's family.

Why, James? Because we're assholes. Yeah, but? But we're assholes. Yeah, but? But we're not scumbags. So that's how that works. Definitely here. Yeah, there's a lot to make fun of besides. Sure.

The murder itself is never funny. But the stuff around it of, I think I can get away with murder, that's hilarious. That's wild. There you go. So if that sounds good to you, I think it's time, everybody, to sit back. What do you say here? Sit back. Let's all clear the lungs and let's all shout.

Shut up and give me murder. There we go, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's move it. Let's do this. Oh, by the way, I have to remind you, the Apple podcast thing. Apple podcast did an update where your shows don't automatically download anymore. So click it.

You go on the actual show page on your Apple podcast and on the upper right-hand corner is the arrow and the fucking dot, dot, dot. And you'll see and it'll say automatically download. It'll bring you new shows. There you go. That'll get you new shows to your phone or wherever you're listening. Here you are. We're going to North Carolina. North Dakota, everybody. Not North Carolina. North to Carolina. your phone or wherever you're listening here you are we're going to north car north carolina north

dakota everybody north to carolina north to carolina you'd have to be in florida or somewhere like that uh this is in southeastern north dakota okay north dakota not a lot going on there no this is a hard state this is like our fourth or fifth north dakota episode we've ever done that's how few and far between because they don't even have a lot of murders. And the murders they do have are in like the one city they have. So it's just we just were in South Dakota. Is that true? A while back.

Yeah, yeah. We're in South Dakota. They have a few more, but it's still it's it's rough going out there. They're Montana, Wyoming. Difficult to find murders. Wyoming has like 12 murders a year in the whole state. So is that right yeah and most of them are not like show worthy

you know that interesting of a crazy tale or anything so there's always got those every week oh god Jesus Phoenix you could pick an area of Phoenix and a lot of those so this is about an hour to Fargo and about two hours to Bismarck North Dakota which was our last North Dakota

episode episode 412, the Bloody Basement Breakfast Club, which was fun. Oh, yeah. That was the kids hanging out at the scum house there. Then this is in Barnes County, area code 701. Motto here, or more like a nickname, is the City of Bridges. Oh, well. I think Pittsburgh has that covered, right?

Yeah, I think they're done. Yeah, City of Champions, City of Bridges. Yeah. oh well i think pittsburgh has that covered right yeah they're i think they're done yeah city of champions city of bridges yeah if you drive it's impossible to not drive in pittsburgh and go holy shit there's a lot of bridges like you no one ever drove and went oh yeah i didn't notice all the bridges it's important they're like eight feet away from each other you could jump from one bridge to the next in pittsburgh and they go to the same places yeah every street crosses the river it's insane it's so weird so uh history here this city was established in 1874 valley city was uh they built a railroad station so now it's a place that's what you had to do the town was originally named worthington oh yeah after the town's promoter i guess come on over to this town. We got a railroad.

They had a Don King there? Yeah, they had a Vince McMahon there. All jacked up. Ha, ha, ha, everybody. Promoter. Come to North Dakota, everybody. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Come on.

Take your shirt off. Let's see what you got. He does morning radio and neighboring markets. Let's see your pecs. Yeah. Let's see those pecs. Oh, baby.

So this is- Promoter. Promoter, George Worthington. It's in a valley, so then they just change it to Valley City. So it makes it nice and easy. They had a post office named Worthington in 1874, but then they changed it to Valley City in 1878, and that's what they have been here. They opened the Carnegie Library because there was a bunch of Carnegie Libraries. Were there?

Yeah, they donated a bunch of money to build a bunch of libraries. Yeah, when you're that rich, you got to bury that money somewhere. Need some write-offs, I would imagine, if you're a robber baron. Jesus. You're literally a robber baron. Like, they just take all your shit from you. jesus you're literally a robber baron like yeah take all your shit from you so fascinating man because there's carnegie hall and then there's uh the guy carnegie so what the fuck how are we pronouncing your name sir that's a i think we all just decided that uh we're all going national

we're going carnegie we're not gonna we're not gonna hit your emphasis if you're going national locally you can you can push people but once you get out in the sticks, it is what it is. They're going to call you what they call you. Locally, you can push. You can bully people. You can. If you're that rich, you're like, listen, okay? Yeah.

It's Carnegie. Thank you. But once you're talking about people in North Dakota, they're like Carnegie, and that's what it is. They don't know who the fuck that guy is. They also call it Carnegie Mellon. Is that right? Is that the same?

I don't know if that's the same person. Is that the college? I mean, like I said, he donated so many endowments to do all this. So maybe that makes sense. Anyway, Carnegie Library opened in 1903 and through the efforts of a local women's organization called the Tuesday Club. They got a library here. On Tuesdays, we wear pink.

Interesting. Tuesdays, we're going to read. The inception of the nation's first barber association occurred in Valley City during a state barber convention in 1909. They unionized? Every barber there, they formed an association, I guess, so you could be, that way you'd know if the barber was half decent, if he was a member of the association. It was probably before licensing. I can't imagine bad barber licenses back then. Tons of people fucking your head up.

Oh, destroy your head, which is neat, because I have tons of barbering in my family, so that's interesting. One famous person from here, and that's Peggy Lee. Who's Peggy Lee? An old country lady. A little country singer. Peggy Lee? From like the 40s or something. Fuck, I don't know.

Well, we'll get to it when we get to things to do because there's a Peggy Lee day. So we'll find out. Reviews of this town. Let's find out here. Five stars. Valley City is a nice town to live in. Okay. It is close to many lakes for fishing and other recreational activities.

Yeah, that's what you do up there. It's a lot of outdoor. You could have probably saved that five-star review and just went and spent time with your kids instead because that seems it is a nice town. It's close to lakes. We get that there's fish in lakes, and we know where the town is located. So we didn't need your help there. Uh, four stars.

I want opinions, not, you know, give me something subjective here. Give me something to chew on four stars. Being a Minnesotan. I am in love with North Dakota weather. That's the only time anyone's ever said that.

Um, the snow and intense winter is great exclamation point what intense winter is great i love it when it's 38 below zero fucking blizzards are beautiful it gets so far below zero there it is disturbing how far below zero it is it's like being from minnesota i feel like i could die here. If you're outside too long, you will die. That's dangerous cold. That's not good. Although I am definitely a minority in this thinking, I love the weather in my area.

The only problem is the sub-zero temperatures. Well, then you don't love the intense winter. That's intense winter. When it's 20, that's just normal winter. That's fine. Look, I love cold. I am a big fan of winter and fall. Until it gets to about 15, and then I'm not a fan anymore.

When I turn my faucet on and nothing comes out, that's fucked up. I'm okay with above 15 or below about 82. About 83 degrees, I start to get a little grumpy. Water's not happening, no. No. Wow. But you get used to it after a while. Or you can move someplace that doesn't get sub-zero.

That's another option. Here's two stars. In my opinion, there are only two good eat-out joints in town, which is a hilarious way to say that. Gross. Two good eat-out joints. I go to others and i'm like you know i went down on a few broads but it wasn't what i was expecting these two on the other hand top notch five stars to the two stars for the town five stars for the eat out joints

well tangy i liked it you know what the eat out joints are called he tells us in the next time what are they pizza ranch ranch. Pizza ranch. Gross. Have you ever heard of pizza coming from a ranch? You ever see a big fat guy named Tony going, come over to my ranch and I'm going to cook you up a couple of pies on the barbecue. That's never happened before.

I'll smoke you a couple of pies. Don't worry about it. Never seen a guy on a horse go, hey, cowpokes, come on over for some damn nice pies. It's pizza night, y'all. I've never seen a guy on a horse go, hey, cowpokes, come on over for some damn nice pies. It's pizza night, y'all. I've never heard. No. Hey, y'all, it's pizza night.

On the ranch. Pizza Ranch and City Lights Supper Club, which sounds fancy. Yeah. Sounds like you got to put a tie on to go there. Other than these two restaurants, there aren't any high quality or fancy restaurants to eat at. Pizza Ranch is considered a high quality fancy restaurant it's valentine's day baby put your best dress on taking you to the pizza ranch about you what the hell is happening um i am under the age of 21 so i cannot comment on the bars in town although there are roughly six to eight bars in town, I have not been to any of these.

Six to eight bars and we got two good restaurants. Two restaurants. They are, Minnesotans are welcome. Their priorities are in order. You bet. There is a pretty good variety of variety in Valley

City for restaurants, but still I usually travel to Fargo for my favorite restaurants. Oh. Worth an hour drive. Two stars. We have as many bars as we do churches. That's good.

You got to keep it even. Oh, yeah. Keep them honest. Yeah. We have two chain restaurants and are supposedly adding a third. Oh, one of these days. Hotel.

Yeah, I'm not sure. This person here, one star. there are virtually no tourist attractions. Yeah, it's North Dakota. North Dakota is one of the least visited tourist destinations because of our lack of attractions. Yeah, obviously. You don't have anything to say. People go to North Dakota for the outdoor shit. They don't go there for anything else.

To look at shit. Yeah. The largest attraction is five hours from our local area and located in the western part of the state. The only close attraction is 30 miles away, and it's the world's largest buffalo and three albino buffaloes. And one day those won't be there. No, they're going to drive. I don't know if they're stuffed. Are they stuffed?

I don't know. You can't just depend on them. Don't buffaloes wander? Don't they look around? Three albinos? They can't last out in the sun by themselves. I feel like they're probably stuffed. No.

Buffalo roam. That's a song for Christ's sake. Yeah, that's what I mean. Where the buffalo roam. Yeah. They move around a lot. That's what I said. Don't they roam?

Where do they move around? Yeah. People in this town, population 6,5866 which sounds like a lot seems like a lot but there's nothing around it it's just like these towns are plunked in the middle of nowhere on the highway so they're far away the next thing is an hour over 6,500 people trying to make it yeah a lot of there's a college here too so that's another part of why there's even that many people a few more males and females actually which is not normal uh median age is a couple years above the average but nothing crazy

it's about 40 a lot of people 18 to 20 years old here because of the college i assume yeah yeah it's the only way it's like a very high percentage of the people uh only 41 married which is under the national average sure um race in town, it's North Dakota. You can guess that pretty easily. 91% white, 1.3% black, 0.8% Asian, 1.8% Native American, 2.5% Hispanic. Religion in this town, much higher than the national average, which is about 50-50. Here it's 64%. So pretty high.

And the vast majority, I mean by a long shot, 34% are Lutherans. Is that right? It is Lutherans. Lutherans and more Lutherans up there. So yeah, 0.0%. Religious as fuck. Yeah. Minnesota's the same way.

Lutherans up there. I know that from Drop Dead Gorgeous. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. The Women's Lutheran Gun Club and all that kind of shit. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. The Women's Lutheran Gun Club and all that kind of shit in this town here. Last election, Barnes County, I should say, 32.7 percent Democrat, 64.1 percent Republican, 3.2 percent independent. Unemployment rate here is under 4 percent. So not bad, I would say. Median household income here, though, is less than the national average. It's about $54,000, about $15,000 under the national average. But cost of living, good news, is pretty low. Average is $100,000.

Here it's $75,000. So not bad. Housing, though, median home cost here, median home cost is $163,400. Fucking great. Which is pretty damn affordable. The dollar stretches if you don't mind an intense winter and you are just hankering to have a little something from the pizza ranch we have for you water you don't need it we have for you the valley city north dakota real estate report the average two-bedroom rental here goes for about 850 bucks a month which is well cheaper

than the national average that's not bad here is a two-bedroom one bath 1760 square foot house it's kind of ugly i mean it's not big for big for two one. Yeah, it's got some good, decent living space. Need some work inside. Needs to be updated. It's like I said, it's kind of you look at it and go, nothing to be that excited about. But the price of it, if you're a young family or something, not bad. Ninety three thousand five hundred bucks doable. So that's what I mean.

You can work on it as you go. If you're looking for something, it's just outdated. That's all. Here's a three bedroom, three, three-bath T-bowl for each and every B-Hull. 2,225 square feet. It's a nice house. My only complaint about it, it's built in 1906, which is nice. It has nice old woodwork. They didn't tear down the moldings and shit like that, which is cool. work. They didn't tear down the moldings and shit like that, which is cool. Only thing I would say is it's crammed into this little neighborhood where you don't really have a lot of room. You're kind of on top of the next house. The yards are right on top of each other. So there's no, if I moved to North Dakota, I want some space. Yeah. Like there's no other reason to live there unless you want some space. We got to open it up a little for sure. Yeah. It's not bad though. It's nice inside inside too much wallpaper for

my taste but that's okay 265 000 bucks which is still great well under the national average and pretty pretty decent here then here's five bedroom two bath 3104 square feet it's on an acre um it's nice it's big i guess it's not bad um not that spectacular either though it's nothing that you're like oh my god look at this amazing thing it's it's nice but uh 524 900 bucks for that though holy that's an acre so you got a little room to breathe there that's not bad only an acre only an acre though it's the thing it's not like anything crazy. Things to do here. Okay. Here's the big one. The North Dakota Winter Show. It's in March, so it's tail end of winter.

But in there, that's still pretty winter. We got to get outside. We've been inside all fucking... We've been inside for six months. It's up to about 14 outside, so we should really head on out. Let's get out there and party. Let's get out there and move around. side, so we should really head on out. Let's get out there and party. Let's get out there and move around.

The North Dakota Winter Show is home to the oldest and longest running agriculture show in North Dakota. Okay. It is held every March and attracts exhibitors and visitors from numerous states as well as Canada. The show features a rodeo,

a country concert, livestock shows, a craft show, an old-time tractor pull. In March? Is that craft show, an old-time tractor pull. In March. Is that with horses, an old-time tractor pull? Yeah. Yeah. It's two guys up there pulling it.

That's where you just get out there and grab a hold of a tractor and pull on it. That's what I mean. It's two guys pulling it with leather straps around their waist or something. That's the tug-of-war. Free stage entertainment, so that must be great. That's got to be wonderful. I stage entertainment. So that must be great. That's got to be wonderful. I have their schedule. They kick off here.

They have a kickoff concert on Saturday, March 2nd with Easton Corbin. Yeah. That's a good one. You know who that is? Yeah. His name's in big letters. So I figured people might know who he is. Mikel Buck.

Never. Michael or McKellie. I'm not sure. And Zach Thomas. they're grouped together those guy from the from the bears buck and thomas yeah the old dolphin middle linebacker the dolphin middle linebacker zach thomas a little short but a little undersized but boy he could pop put a poppin on you don't worry about it hear him on that banjo absolutely you don't worry about it hear him on that banjo absolutely there's a milwaukee tool demo going on hell yeah there we go come look at the new tools come see our new sawzall then at one there's a

tractor pull then at six there's a truck pull so those are different oh we usually pick one or the other how many pulls are you gonna have we got a car poll next year. It's going to be awesome. The horse team events are going to be there. There's a pony poll. I assume it's a pony. Come on, a draft horse poll and a ranch rodeo and Calcutta. I don't know what the fuck that is. What's the Calcutta?

Beats me. That's a country. I don't know. the fuck that is. What's a Calcutta? Beats me. That's a country. I don't know. Queen contest horsemanship also. Queen contest fashion show. And then an interview and a brunch. And then they crown in the coronation on Saturday, March 9th. They crown the queen of the fair, I guess, here.

Fuck. That's not bad. And then there's a bid call auctioneers contest to round it out hilariously around the country we do fairs around fall because that's like the harvest they have to wait until fucking march oh yeah they have that's it's been frozen since october so uh they all peggy lee day is another thing they have and she is is celebrate her learn more about her music. I thought she was an old country broad. I don't know her. Old country gal, I think

Peggy Lee from like the 40s, if I'm not mistaken. Fascinating. Old school and her radio career and how it all started in Valley City. So just go hear about some lady that you've never even heard of. That's a lot of fun. Crime rate in this town. property crime is right at the average

okay the only thing i could think is because it's a college town so you're going to get drinking in public and pissing in an alley and yeah two idiots you know being idiots in the street disorderly conduct and the alcohol crimes yeah and then violent crime though murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime is about one third below the national average. So that's where you'd expect a small town to be. Yeah. You know, and that even with a college, because in a college you're going to get obviously your your your your rapes and your fights in the street because two idiots are drunk and they're fighting over a girl because one guy just tried to rape her or something because college kids. Somebody got punched and then hit their head on the way down and they're dead. And now that guy's going to jail for murder.

And all he wanted to do was teach him a lesson about you don't rape girls. Yeah, because it's I'm so happy. I'm so happy to not be in college. I'm so glad I didn't go. Yeah, I would have been terrible anyway. So that said, let's talk about some murder here. All right. Okay.

All right. Let's start out with it. We'll talk about a nice couple here. Yeah. Let's talk about Eunice or Eunice, I guess. Eunice and Larry Morgenstern. Okay. Morgenstern.

They have one child, natural, just, you know, he puts it in her and she spits it out. And then, you know, how kids work. That's how I explain it to my children, by the way. Daddy, where do babies come from? It's kind of like a vending machine. You drop one in her and she spits it out. Okay, and then they went off into the world. Let's go over to the vending machine and I'll show you how this works.

Show you how this is. And then you got M&Ms. Enjoy. Imagine this quarter was gross. Okay, now. Put it in the slot. Yeah. So they adopt three kids.

What? They're big into adopting because they thought they couldn't have kids. For a long time, they couldn't have kids, actually. They ended up, during the adoption process of their oldest michael yeah here that's when eunice found out she was pregnant and they're in the middle of adopting a kid because they couldn't have kids holy so that's i've actually heard of i know somebody else that happened to a guy him and his wife for years they tried he went and got all these treatments all this crazy shit both of them all these fertility things couldn't get pregnant started the adoption process and like a week before it was finished they got they were pregnant

they're like jesus christ but now you're happy yeah yeah they were fine with it because he was wealthy so he was okay with it but um he wanted this yeah so uh michael was two and a half when they brought him in they're their oldest and then they have Rebecca as the child that Eunice actually delivers here. And then they have April as well, another child that they adopt. And then Mindy as well, another child they adopt. Okay. So they adopted two girls and a boy and then had their own girl. And had their own girl.

So all together, three girls and a boy. I had it right the first time. You were there. And I was there and I second-guessed myself, damn it. So that's how that goes. They live in New Salem, North Dakota, which is a couple hours away from here, two and a half hours away from Valley City. And Mindy they adopted from Columbia, actually.

Oh. Yeah. And they also adopted April from Bogota as well. Oh, really? They adopt Colombian kids. Yeah, that's the thing here. They decided after they had the first two, they waited about 10 years. They had their adopted kid and the kid they had, and they waited about 10 years, and they decided to have, let's get more kids in here.

Let's adopt more kids. They couldn't have any more kids, I guess, after the one. They only had the one. So they adopt Aprilil from bogota and um then they found out that april had a biological sister who also needed an adoptive family is that mindy that would be mindy so she said they they said oh they were so happy with that because they were they didn't want to split siblings up obviously it. Sure, sure. So she said they went to Columbia to go see Mindy, who was their youngest, April's biological sister. She was then four and a half months old when they saw her.

Brand new. Which is a great age, four and a half months, because they can't move around yet. You can put them somewhere and they'll stay there. Yeah. You know what I mean? They won't end up on the other side of the house, but're like awake and alert and shit because when they're like a month old they're no fun they don't even barely see things yeah they're lame they have no sense of humor this baby's also made it for 120 days so it's probably fine it's probably fine but you can

like you do peekaboo and they'll fucking laugh yeah i mean like you do that to a month old kid and they're like they just look at you they have no idea what's going on so this is a fun age before they start getting ambulatory spit everywhere oh spitting and puking um eunice said she saw mindy and said quote she was all eyes and a big smile and she remains that way she's a very happy kid mindy everybody's awesome happy outgoing really upbeat and a lot of energy and that sort of thing. Now, they raised this brood of children on a farm. They had a farm. So they're like, we have this big farm and stuff.

We have plenty of room for kids. Let's get kids that need to be adopted. Are they working the farm? Yeah, yeah. No, they work the farm. Like they have a big working farm that they do. And so it's pretty cool. I mean, it's nice of them to do that, honestly.

They have the room. They could afford it. They have the time. They said, sure. Not to mention a little help on the farm. I mean. Many hands make light work, I've heard. Yeah.

Why do you think the Amish try to have so many kids? Right. You need to. There's a lot of fucking work to be done. Get out your asses out there and put that barn up. You know, these fireplaces aren't going to build themselves. They're not going to know or clean themselves or any of that shit. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers

at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent VB Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth.

With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited

to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your

podcasts. So, uh, that's how this goes. And they raise the kids on the farm. This farm was in the family. It's an old farm. This is dad Larry's mother grew up on this farm. Wow. So that's how old this is.

His mother was born on this farm. Awesome. So that's cool. This is a family handed down through the family. And that's the other thing, too. You kind of want kids to leave this too to be able to work it so they said mindy from the beginning giggly happy loved people um you know all that sort of thing there by the way there's not a lot of colombians in new salem i can't imagine there's north dakota these two that's that's what it's all a bit of

three I think it's Michael April and so outside of this family there really aren't a lot of Colombian kids wandering around in this town so they kind of get a lot of looks like what the where the hell that could come from type of deal like yeah so um but her sister Rebecca said she talked to anybody she'd strike up conversations with people. She was very, very musical, Mindy, as well, at the time when she was a kid. Her sister April says when she was 10, she could just watch the piano teacher play a song, and then she could come home and play it by ear. That's awesome. She could do it by ear, just stick around until she found the right sounds that work and put it together.

People that are self-taught on instruments,'m blown away especially that's impressive it's very so many fucking keys especially because i've had people actively try to teach me and i can't learn so i don't get it i can't imagine just taking it on my own and figuring it out that seems well beyond my capabilities to say that i memorized eight keys of beethoven and that's it yeah we can all play heart and soul on the piano one of the one of the sides either the high or the fucking low i can only play the high i don't know where you can do you can you do the lows they're just the high i don't know i can do the banana that's it yeah that's all i've got yeah that's what you got wonderful yeah we suck dude thank god our live shows are comedy because yeah because if i had to play a fucking

if we had to fill it with music it would be a short show thank you everybody good night thanks for coming out. Thank you. I did it. All right. We go backstage, wipe our foreheads with a rag, high five like we do after a real live show, you know, do all that. We got to get a drink tonight, boy. That took a lot out of me. That is why I won't do two shows in a night.

I won't do it. I won't do it. Won't do it. Where the hell is that from? That is why I won't do two shows in a night. That is Beetlejuice I won't do it. I won't do it. Where the hell is that from? That is why I won't do two shows in a night. That is Beetlejuice. Won't do it. That's right, Beetle. Thank you.

It sounded like Michael Keaton in my head. She also plays basketball from the time she's in like the third grade. Yeah, Mindy's very good at basketball. She plays all the way through high school and always on the school teams, and she's really good. She also loves farm work. Loves it. She loves to milk a cow, raise a chicken, bale some hay. She's into it all, man.

She's a fascinating girl. She's jacked about the farm here. Now, in high school, she also, both April and Mindy, show athletic skills here. They're on the varsity track team through junior high all the way through high school. Also basketball. Her favorite player is Michael Jordan, and she's obsessed with Michael Jordan, which makes sense. If you're a child in the 90s. He's the best.

And you like basketball. It's kind of the thing here. basketball it's kind of the thing here she uh even wore number 23 in honor of which i think basically in the 90s kids would have to like fist fight over 23 because everybody wanted it was it was certainly in the bin yeah it was every then it was tough it was really tough in new york because not only was it jordan but it was also don mattingly so kids would want to murder each other over it that was like forget about it that was a very popular number um she had posters of jordan in a room and all that nobody give a fuck about 45 no not really nobody ever no i'm trying to think of uh well who wore 45 jordan at the end oh jordan's 45 yeah yeah jordan's jordan's 45 nobody switch back to

23 yeah i was like that's not to work. And would that last? A playoff series, I think? And a half or some shit? I think a season and a half. A season and a half? Or was it just half a season? I think it may have been just that half season that he was out for a little bit. I think it was that half season.

Yeah, when he came back. In the middle of the playoffs, he switched back to 23. And everybody was like, no. Yeah, he had a bad game. And the next game, he came out in 23 during the playoffs. I remember that. I was like, ah, fuck. And everyone was like, ah, shit. Yeah, fuck your a bad game, and the next game he came out in 23 during the playoffs. I remember that. I was like, ah, fuck. Everyone was like, ah, shit.

Yeah, fuck your baseball number, man. Damn it, now it's going to be. And that started the trend, though, of big basketball players changing their numbers during mid-career, I think just to sell jerseys again. Sure. That's all I can imagine. So they play basketball in front of the farmhouse, even after dark.

She's like Larry Bird out here, basically, playing outside the farm and shit, sometimes till after midnight. They'd have to tell, like, one in the morning, come inside, it's enough basketball here. She wanted to do Jordan stuff, they said, so she's always trying to do fadeaways and rock his shots here. Her sister said she loved the way he played, his attitude,

and she thought he was good looking. She also thought he was. He was a handsome man. I didn't think about that. From a boy's point of view, none of the guys, like you wanted to dunk like Jordan. None of the guys were like, he's fucking hot too, I'm telling you. Fucking smoking. See the ass on that fucking guy. Forget about it. He's got great Jordan. Yeah. And the guys were like, he's fucking hot, too. I'm telling you. Fucking smoking.

See the ass on that fucking guy? Forget about it. He's got great hips. Shit. I will forget things I would do to him. Let me tell you something. Like, you never heard that, really, as a kid. He has got baseballs for cabs.

Those are incredible. I'll tell you something. Oh, boy. Jesus Christ. Come on now. Let's shoot some hoops. I got to get distracted. She also played clarinet in the school band.

Fucking hell. Busy. Yeah. Track, basketball, clarinet, cow milking, piano. She's got a lot going on. Fuck. A lot of energy here. She had aspirations to be a basketball coach, like a school.

That's what she wanted to do. Coach like a high school basketball team or a college team. Her high school English teacher said that she would have been, she thought, yeah, she's going to make it. In high school, she said, wow, what a great coach she's going to be later on. So she's doing all this shit. She's also very popular. She has a lot of friends.

She's really outgoing. She's smart, athletic, and attractive. So popular is what it's going to be and outgoing it's on top of it so and not a lot of time to be like she's spread thin so like yeah when you're when you're in demand and you only have this tiny bit of time to give it makes you that much more in demand more rare Yeah. Her teacher said the word that most describes her is bubbly. She didn't walk into a room. She sort of bounced into a room.

She floated. She's got to be because to do all that shit, you got to have a lot of energy. Sure. So she graduates from high school and in 2002 decides she goes to college and she enrolls at, this is in Valley City. This is how we end up here. Valley City State University. Is that a place? Valley City State University sounds made up.

Yeah. It sounds like that sketch where the guys are announcing crazy names and colleges they went to. We've seen that a hundred times. It sounds like that. Valley City State University. Does not sound real. But she always, they said she took her old she has a baby blanket she's always had that she took with her to college and everything

she's also sentimental yeah that's another thing and in addition to all that other shit she's doing super into church like really she sings in the choir she's a suit goes to church every Sunday, no matter what she's doing. Even in college, she'll wake up Sunday morning and call her friends up and say, you guys coming to church? Religiously. And hear me sing. Yeah. Almost like a religion with her. It's weird.

So she was really cool. Sounds like a cool girl here. So she always had her blanket with her. If she was sleeping somewhere, she'd take her green blanket. At a friend's house, it'd be with her. Her baby blanket. Her baby blanket. Now, during her freshman year, she wants to play basketball there, ideally, or be that she keeps having this recurring numbness in some of her fingers and in her face.

She gets some numbness in both of these. So she goes to the doctor. She's 18 years old, this kid. Active as can be 18-year-old. And she's diagnosed with MS that year. Oh, no. Yes. That's young for ms obviously and for it to manifest right absolutely

that is young yeah but um and ms by the way can go it's the biggest yeah biggest spectrum of what can happen because it can be terrible and debilitating or some people can live with it for 40 years and they're 50 years and they're fine. Not fine, but they can manage it. They got challenges. They manage it. I mean, you know, there's a lot of people. I was just reading a book about the Sopranos and what's her name? Jamie Lynn Sigler that

played Meadow. Yeah, Meadow's got it. She was 20. It was like season three. They told her she had MS. She worked and did the Sopranos and was okay. She was just on a Super Bowl commercial a couple years ago. She's doing okay. My stepfather's had it for 20 years. Yeah.

And he does fine. He has other problems too. Sure. But yeah, she also goes out with a guy during her. She finds a boyfriend during her freshman year here named Kyle, which a guy named kyle that sounds college yeah it's part of the college checklist go out with a guy named kyle i think as you check that off done do kyle's generally keep that name for the rest of their lives or do they there's no short for kyle kyle there's no long no i call you kyler what the hell are you gonna call you knowler. What the hell are you going to call me? You know what I mean? You can't go by Kai. You can't adult that up any.

Yeah. Impossible to adult that. Timmy is bad, but Tim is fine. There's no way to fix that. There's only been one Kai, and he was a hitchhiking murderer. So you can't go by that. Hitchhiking, disaster, fucking schizophrenic murderer. We did a Patreon on that, by the way.

Check that out. And he is a fucking enigma good he is a weird guy i just feel bad about kyle names because it's always a joke it's always a joke well yeah yeah because kyle's mom's a big fat bitch james it's big fat bitch she's the biggest bitch in the whole wide world if they're ever a good i know that song way too well by heart i love what he does it was my daughter's favorite song in the world when she was like 10 and we would play it in the car over and over again and sing it so she's a cool kid needless to say it's her favorite thing

boys and girls. Boys and girls. Boys and girls. So she's going out with Kyle for about, he's a junior when she meets him. So he's farther along than her. They go out for about two and a half years. Wow. Yeah, two years of, he graduates after two years,

and then about another half year they stay together. She planned on marrying him. She told everybody, this is the guy. That's him. He's the one. I love the school. She was talking about picking out dresses and shit, like she was wanting to marry this guy,

but after he graduates, he moved an hour away, which is hard if you're busy, so they couldn't really keep the long-term thing together and they ended up breaking up okay so kyle is out of the picture here um donzo but she's still always all her friends said she kind of harbored a little something for kyle yeah he's the one that got away he's the one yeah this is she's she's always hoping kyle might come back and be in the picture here. So 2006 is her senior year. It's the end of her senior year, the very end here, or the beginning of her senior year.

She was in her – she's doing that. She is doing a phys ed degree. That's what she's – for her degree because she wants to be a coach. She hoped to be a trainer maybe or a coach, basketball coach. wants to be a coach she hoped to be a trainer maybe or an or a coach basketball coach um she uh her um she also was an assistant basketball coach at a high school in valley city at the time so she was doing that in her spare time to get coaching experience and she was a lifeguard at the university as well and sang in the church choir and played the piano and clarinet. Wow. And did schoolwork and was going out with Kyle and had friends. I want a nap.

And she's got MS, for Christ's sake. Yeah. That's something right there. She's got a lot of energy. She's living in an off-campus apartment now. Yeah. And the reason is because her doctors told her, apartment now yeah and the reason is because her doctors told her she basically she be she gets to take part in a clinical trial for ms a new ms drug and it was kind of like a chemo-ish drug

a little bit it would suppress your immune system a lot so that was difficult so they told her to move off campus to her own place she could do other things and go out and do stuff. But being in a dorm with a shitload of stuff just floating around, all these kids, that's not really great for you. So get your own place off campus so you can keep it clean and how you like it and everything like that. So she does. And she has a job here. She works at Robbie's, which is a restaurant in town. It's a friend of hers.

Parents own it. Her mother owns it. So she works there as a waitress. And everybody likes her. She's a very popular waitress. People ask for her. She's nice and friendly. So, yeah, give me the friendly one there.

She's better. So she does that. She's at church. She's going to school school doing all sorts of shit here uh the athletic director for the university is a guy named doug peters he says that you know he was friends with her from 2004 on when he became athletic director and you know she was close to his family she loved his daughters she was a sweet kid and she uh they attended the same church as his family she did so yeah she would sing in the church choir and volunteer to do the youth group things and really shit for the kids.

And, yeah, that's I don't know where she's getting this energy, but she's making me tired already here. So now her sister, Rebecca, moved back to New Salem. She got married and moved away. But then they moved back to New Salem in July to July of 2006. She's moved back to start a church with her husband. She's going to create her own? That's, yeah. I didn't even know that was an option, but I guess churches- I didn't think about it. Yeah, I guess, I mean, they got to start at some point. A few miles away from me, there's a church that's been for rent, for lease, for like ever.

It's just sitting there, this church. We should start a church. Want to start a church? Want to start a church? Let's do it. We been for rent for lease for like ever it's just sitting there this church we should start a church want to start a church let's do it we should just rent this place out i don't know no no we have no dogma that's our church come on in what do you want i have to believe in whenever you i don't care it doesn't matter church of early day saints i don't know whatever you feel like make it up make it up as you go along just don't make anybody else do it all right bye and that's it that's church we could do that the church will handle your business yeah so her husband jason is a nazarene pastor and they also i have no idea nazar it's a what some super jesus denomination yeah i'm sure i assume so. And I guess there was she is. They adopted kids from Columbia as well, I guess.

So that's nice here. And she's the natural born of Morgan Stearns. So the trial study, she like I said, Mindy participates in. It's experimental, but she's trying to do it. Her father said she said she was feeling better as she was taking the medicine. It was making her feel better. And she was expecting to hear the trial results in October of whether this drug works and is going to work. So she's doing all this stuff.

She gets a new boyfriend as well. Got to move on. Got to get over Kyle. You get stuck on Kyle. Oh, come on. No one should be hung up on Kyle. Let's be realistic here so this boyfriend's name is jordan rainham and she found a jordan a jordan yeah she's like i like

that i like that yeah you know what that's my jersey already says it on the back so fuck it that's my guy uh he's a local guy from valley city and he's also raised on a farm so get some shit in common farm guy he's a little more shy than her she's more outgoing he's a local guy from Valley City, and he's also raised on a farm. Got some shit in common. Farm guy. He's a little more shy than her. She's more outgoing. He's a little more reserved because most farm guys are kind of quiet. There's a lot of aw shucks guys. Yeah.

I've met a lot of people from farms. None of them are real boisterous because it scares the animals probably. Well, there's that, and there's also a lot of shit to do when I'm tired. Another reason why Italians don't farm much, I think. Maybe that's why. We're not going to, oh, and everything runs. Ah, come back, you motherfucker, and they're chasing shit. All the hand talking scares the chickens.

All the hand talking, and you're going to get shit in your pinky ring, and nobody wants that. For sure. That's going to happen. So people said that he seemed a little more serious about her than she was about him. OK. She might have been still harboring some feelings of Kyle. Kyle. Yeah.

Some little Kyle left in their little residual Kyle left around the around the rim. And but Jordan's very into her, though. Awfully into her. So late August 2006, she contacts the police, Mindy does. Okay. She calls the police about a suspicious man who stopped outside of her apartment. Oh. Now, this sounds like not a police calling worthy thing, but this must have been a feeling she had to be because she's friendly and she's

outgoing so she's not like oh my god a person talked to me i better call the cops like that's not how she is at all yeah it had the the interaction must have been very not fluid well she the guy just asked her for directions oh he got out of his car asked her for directions to a street that was only about a block away so he was like right there if he just drove he would have found it so she described the man as being in his 60s and driving a blue car that resembled what she thought was like a ford torus type car okay so mid-size blue sedan basically here and they all look the fucking same in the 2000s yeah and from 2000 on they still making a taurus oh yeah they were that ugly rounded shit yeah rounded oval piece of shit

one ugly fucking taurus yeah nasty so she's stereo ah terrible stuff there so she said that when he stepped out of the car she felt threatened is what she called the cops he didn't threaten her he didn't touch her he didn't do anything but she said she got a weird body language yeah and she just wanted to put that out there that there's a guy who freaked her out and that's fine because now if somebody else reports you know my kid got taken and the only car in the neighborhood was a blue taurus maybe that's the guy i mean so maybe you get a report going and that's how you build stuff up there documented at minimum absolutely um her mother says she used to come home and just to ask for food like to make her mother's version of that food because she was homesick so she'd go all the way home just for scrambled eggs sometimes it's like a two hour

drive for scrambled eggs yeah um they said she put salt on everything. That was one of her traits that everybody knew. Everything heavily salted. Okay. Heavily salted. And her favorite thing in the world is mashed potatoes,

apparently, which I ate after my own heart. Yeah. After my own heart, darling. How whipped are they? Are they how fluffy? God damn.

I don't even care. Lumpy, fluffy. Give them to me fucking lumpy fluffy baked you want to throw some shit in it great put some bacon in it okay you want to be just potatoes i'll tell you there's a potato base i'm eating it period a whipped fuck like a giant fluffy mashed potatoes is so good the sour cream and milk get them forget it bring it on and butter shit i'm hungry now bring it on oh i can't wait to eat tonight i am jacked for this so yeah she said that you know eunice who's more of a serious type the north dakota farm woman is you know yeah kind of what

you expect she said mindy would come in and turn the radio on and make her mom dance and do all that shit. And she's like, we're getting Colombian up in this motherfucker. Let's go. She puts on drums and horn music and mom's got to dance now. It's all over with. So she comes around here in late August of 2006 here. And she's small, too. She weighs like 115 pounds.

She's a, wow. She's a small girl. And, uh, she said her dad was outside loading hay bales and her parents said she told her dad, fucking, I got this.

You're going to have a heart attack. Old man, get the fuck aside. Get aside. With her MS. She's flinging bales. She's flinging bales, bales of hay,

telling her dad, you're going to have a heart attack, which is pretty damn cool. That's, that bales of hay, telling her dad you're going to have a heart attack, which is pretty damn cool. That's the type who – that's how she is. She had a 96 Chevy Corsica that would break down all the time. Yeah, yeah, she did. Which is kind of how that works. I could have just said she had a 96 Chevy Corsica and you'd all go, wow, that broke down all the time, I bet.

She was working on it a lot. Oof, man. She said that coming up to this time here september 12th 2006 she had a nice unis said she had a nice phone conversation with mindy said a wonderful conversation we talked about everything and then september 13th 2006 comes around here now about.30 a.m. this day, a woman named Lacey, who's known Mindy since school, since, you know, 10 years or whatever. She met Mindy at the library at Valley City State University, which still sounds ridiculous. State City. State City.

City State. And they talked for a while, and then they both left the library together at 12.20 p.m. Okay. Talked for a while, and then they both left the library together at 12.20 p.m. Okay. Now, Ashley Koons, she said, K-U-N-Z, by the way. That is one letter short of this girl having a rough childhood. She said that she was chatting online with Mindy on September 13th here.

This is during Koons' lunch break from student teaching. So Ashley was doing that. She said that Ashley said she told her she had to get back to her student teaching and the conversation ended at about 1220. So it seems like that's when she was talking to her from the library and, you know, online. And then when the other girl went back to work, that's when she left the library with her friend. She was like, OK, shut that conversation. Now I can leave. OK, so Mindy apparently has plans on this day. Everybody says on the 13th that day she's supposed to have some sort of modeling shoot. Oh, and yeah, her friends know vaguely it's a modeling shoot her sister said she didn't really

know a ton about it she just said mindy called her tuesday night to ask the night before it's a wednesday is the 13th she called the night before on a tuesday to ask advice on what to wear to this thing okay so but her sister she said she didn't really give her that many details of the thing i don't know if it's like one of these agencies that they take your pictures and they charge you $400. I don't know what's going on here. But you got to know what it is to know what to recommend. It might have been for the school pamphlet.

You know what I mean? That's a student you want to put on there. She looks like she's having a good time. So she did that. Mindy said that she had found it on the internet, this modeling agency or modeling whatever, and had checked it out with the Better Business Bureau even. So she's not giving Nigerian Prince money here. She actually gets on the Better Business Bureau website and checks them out. I never do that.

I've never checked the triple B for anything. No. She's got her shit together, man. That's wild. Wow. So the photo shoot was supposed to be early in the day on Wednesday is what her sister said. So presumably when she's at the library, she's already gone to the photo shoot. That's all we can assume here.

Now, she's supposed to meet her friends later on now this is shaky whether she's supposed to whether she knows she's supposed to or her friends are trying to recruit her to basically know which friends yes um yeah a couple of her friends tony bauman and danielle holmstrom are their names and they apparently tony's got a boyfriend here that is a little bit possessive. And apparently she had told she doesn't the boyfriend doesn't like it when Tony goes out with certain friends, men and women. You know, your significant other has a friend you don't like and you don't like it when they go out with them because they're whatever the fuck. So they're different around that person. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's how that goes uh so they decide now mindy's okay to hang out with according to this guy she's okay because she's smart and has her shit together or whatever so the friend is telling the friend thinks about first about lying to the boyfriend and saying i'm gonna i'll be at mindy's house i'll hang out with mindy instead of going out but then they decide to go let's get mindy to go out with us that way when mindy comes out with us when i talk to him mindy's right there too and then you'll be like yeah i'm here yeah because she told tony told her boyfriend that mindy was i guess gonna be there so sure she uh they try to call her all afternoon and she doesn't answer her phone all afternoon. All afternoon, all afternoon.

They're like, fuck, fuck, we need to get with her because she's part of the plan. And if he talks to her before we do. Fuck it all up. Fuck it all up here. So they said they wanted to stop by her house then because she's not going to answer the phone. We'll just stop by. So they stop by her place here and um she uh this is from bauman tony bauman now we'll say also people could say for the last couple hours people have been

saying that they can smell pine saw very heavy by the apartment by her apartment just a heavy pine saw smell like in the hallway all out here so tony goes and she says this, quote, I ran inside and knocked on the door and there was no answer. It wasn't locked. Door was unlocked. First of all, if I go to anyone's house, unless it's like my mother, I'm not checking the doorknob anyway. I've never checked anybody's doorknob. I guess if you're real close, you just check the doorknob. So she said it wasn't locked.

So I opened the door and stepped in. Seems normal. Quote the door and stepped in. Seems normal. Quote, about two steps in, I saw something on the ground right in front of my feet. It was Mindy. And then I noticed something around her neck. Oh, boy. Now, she bolts out of the apartment so fast she, like, trips and falls into the wall because she's so freaked out by this, obviously. She runs out of the apartment

here uh danielle is in the car basically she's still waiting in the car so they stopped by they said that uh danielle said quote that tony came running to her car and opened it and was screaming she just ran out screaming yeah she grabbed a phone a phone, Tony did, called 911, and she said she thought that there was something wrapped around Mindy's neck is what she said out loud here. So they go back to the apartment. They're not waiting for 911 because they don't know if she's still – if there's something around her neck, she could be unconscious. Let's help her. Maybe if we pull that thing off, she's fine. be unconscious. Let's help her.

Maybe if we pull that thing off, she's fine. So they run back up there and they find a neighbor who's outside, this guy, and he walks into the apartment with them to check if Mindy's alive or not. And he puts his hand to her face

for some, I guess, to feel for temperature. To feel for wind? I guess, maybe wind, or like I said, or temperature to feel the face if she's cold or not. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and

Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people.

With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes,

you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. or on Apple Podcasts. touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.

Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. So she is unfortunately not alive, though, Mindy. She has passed away on the floor here. Next to Mindy is an empty bottle of pine salt laying there okay and it really smells heavy of pine salt like you open the door it punches you in the face of pine salt pine salt strong if there's a lot of it in a small area it'll oh man it'll overwhelm you yeah i didn't know how much you needed when you mopped, and I used a lot. The bottle is what I used.

The whole bottle, and that's too much. That'll take your house over for a while. Yeah. So the neighbor, Danielle, described the whole thing with the neighbor as strange. She said it was weird. He was just like right there. We walked in, and he was just like hanging out in the hallway now. And he's touching bodies and shit.

And he's happy to go in and check out a potentially dead body. Like he was more than happy to walk in there. So she said also she'd never seen him before around there either. So that was different as well. So anyway, when they get in there and see her, there's a belt wrapped around her neck. That's what's around her neck is a belt. And she's been, there are two different knives in the region. One is lying next to her, very bloody.

And the other one is sticking out of her neck and it's broken. Oh, wow. A broken, like the handle broke off so the blade is sticking out of her neck. Shit. So this is like, holy shit, hardcore violence here. It's a vicious, vicious attack. It looks like her throat's been cut and it's been broken, ripped off too. So she's been strangled, stabbed in the neck,

and her throat's been cut at the same time. Very angry. I mean, yeah, you stab someone hard enough to break a knife blade off in their neck. Your neck is not that. No, there's not a lot of stiff shit in there. There's not moves around a lot. Like Ed Kemper said. Yeah.

Yeah. The Mindhunter show. He's talking about fucking people's necks. Yeah. To break a knife blade off is that's something else there. So other than that, her her apartment there's not ransacked her shit's not knocked over there's not you know doesn't look like all the furniture has been tipped over or anything like that and her purse and her lanyard are still on her arm like her

college id and her purse corduroy purse she's got is still on her like on her way out or on her way in yeah she's only two she's right in right by the door yeah so did she go to leave and have somebody jump her from the other side did she let somebody in and they were going to leave together right who you know who knows here so yeah phone and wallet though are scattered on the floor so purse purse is on her shoulder, lanyard on her shoulder. Phone makes sense because she probably had that in her hand. Right. That ends up on the floor. But her wallet's on the floor, too.

So it looks like they don't know. Did somebody rifle through her purse, find her wallet? And threw it? Yeah, that's the thing. It's kind of not clear at this point. All they know is she was last seen alive at 1225 p.m. That is when she left the library and was in the parking lot.

That's the last time. So police arrive and they find no forced entry into the apartment. No forced entry. There's no secured entry, by the way, into this apartment building. So anybody can just walk up to the apartment doors.

It's not like there's a gate outside where you've got to put a code in or put a key in the locker or anything like that. So the door was unlocked, as the friend said. So they said that. Now, the special agent Mark Saylor of the North Dakota Bureau of Criminal Investigation said, quote, as I entered, I could smell a very strong odor like an ammonia disinfectant. The body of the victim was laying across the entry hallway. And they said she lived alone and they're not aware of anyone else who has a key. Really?

Nobody they know has a key. So it's not like a bunch of her friends have keys or she gave a key to a neighbor to water her plants or some shit when she went out of town. Nothing like that. The person they'd really like to find is Ford Taurus man at this point. Yeah. Because that guy is a guy that they certainly should like because that guy scared her. You know what I mean? Made her feel threatened.

She never said anyone else made her feel threatened. So they don't know what to do. They're starting from scratch here, basically, with let's interview everybody within a 50-mile radius. Friends, anybody that ever met her. The problem is she knows so many people from college. Yeah, colleges tend to fuck things up. Yeah, and she works at a restaurant,

so this could be some sick fuck from a restaurant that kept an eye on her. This could be some sick fuck from college that's been keeping an eye on her for two years and decide to make their move. Who knows? Some guy requests her section every week. Yeah. That's what I mean.

It could be anybody. So they said the cause of death here is an incised wound of neck and asphyxia. So it's strangulation and fucking. And the bleeding. Yeah. Jesus Christ. That is. This is brutal, man.

One or the other could have done it. That's crazy. They were strangling her, what I would assume, strangling her and it wasn't going fast enough. So they started stabbing. That's what this sounds like. Jesus Christ, that's too much. The strangling takes longer than you think. It's wild.

It takes three, four minutes to strangle somebody. That's a long fucking time. It's a lot of effort, number one. And I think it's just not what people expect. They see movies. Yeah. The guy goes down. It's the noise.

I mean, it took me 42 years to find out that it was the blood circulation cutting off, not the oxygen. And the noise makes people think that you just run out of oxygen and you knock out that's not it that's not it so that's what it feels like is this was taking too long right and then they went obviously were i mean two knives one wasn't even enough right and she was stabbed with both knives by the way yeah the one wasn't like a backup that got left behind she was stabbed with both knives, by the way. Yeah, yeah. The one wasn't like a backup that got left behind. She was stabbed with both. Yeah, because one broke off in her neck, so I assume they got another one.

Went after. And I say he because this just doesn't seem like a. Gals don't do this. Yeah. No, no. And she could probably fight back if it was somebody her own size. Yeah, somebody might have some wounds. Yeah.

She can toss a bale of hay. Yeah. I mean, that's why I was making sure to state that. She can toss a bale of hay and you play, you know. She's kicking MS's ass at this point. That's what I mean. She's pretty tough here. And she's not a withering flower either.

She's spunky. She's got a lot of energy. She seems like she'd fight you. So the reactions, obviously, people freak out. Everybody liked this girl. Her sister said she was just a really awesome person. That's Rebecca. I said how much she loved sports and the,

or even helping people at the school. Uh, the athletic director said, I just knew her very personally. Well, or very well, personally, she was one of the nicest people I ever met.

She really liked kids. She's somebody I would hope my daughters would be like. That's a compliment here. The family all gathers at the farmhouse. Her dad's 57. Her mom's 54 at this point. The kids come home. This is how they found out, basically.

Eunice noticed someone outside and in the dark noticed somebody coming up to the farmhouse. So they flicked the light on and they saw it was Rebecca, their daughter, who lives in New Salem. And she's crying. And then next to him, next to her, is the Morton County Sheriff's deputy next to her where they live, that county. So he said, he said, he said oh christ now what jesus what the fuck's going on now didn't expect this obviously um so yeah they said they were just horrified they basically uh devastated they sat in her room for the rest of the night because they didn't know what else to do with her there they uh they said even the cat who doesn't like

people was crawling all over everybody that night trying to comfort folks animals are like that dude they know man they do they do no my friend my friend my dog frankie if i'm sad that's your friend will not leave me alone yeah but i bought her that's i can't count that i didn't even buy her i found her on the street so you know you find friends on the street so yeah you chose that friend yeah yeah we didn't pay a dime for that fucking dog so the next day they have a few leads i mean they got to talk to boyfriend ex-boyfriend yeah you know people at work see if anybody's being weird stuff like that but they don't have any suspects no everybody's confused all the friends are like i don't know who could have hurt her it just doesn't, nobody was mad at her ever. There's just no reason for anybody to hurt her.

So the police chief here of Valley City, Dean Ross, he was conducting interviews, and they said that they had to follow up more than 100 phone calls they received very quickly. Everybody that knew her was just like, this is what I know. Yeah, that's overwhelming. Yeah, and they said, we do not have a suspect at this time. However, we really want one, which is... We'd really love one. We'd love to have a suspect. That's the most honest, and I feel like this is a guy who the Valley City fucking chief of police doesn't talk to the press about murder very often, I feel like.

That's the thing there, probably. I don't have any you know i'd really like one really would like one though uh so they said also there was no evidence that gives any indication that sexual assault occurred that's positive so that's good she was fully clothed and everything like that you know so that's that's something anyway um the police here the chief said at this time i can't talk motive. You're not going to get a lot of answers about why. What we do, we do have further investigation to do.

This will come to court and we don't want to jeopardize our case. We know nothing. And I'm going to say it's because we're keeping it close to the vest, which a lot of the details they are keeping close to the vest because they have to interrogate people. They want to know if, you know, you keep some shit secret. If they know anything, then they'll tell us they know things. You definitely, you know, want to chill it out. He said, quote, everybody's scared and we want to bring some peace. We're still a safe community.

This one tragic death shouldn't have happened. So don't think that there's a maniac out there on the loose, even though there is. Don't think that. Don't be freaked out by that. Don't let it change your life. Yeah. Vote Chief Ross, by the way. So the Mark Saylor guy, the Bureau of Criminal Investigation cat here, when he gets in here,

he's the one who figures it all out that the pine saw pine saw had been not just poured in the apartment poured all over her body she's soaked in pine saw yes so i don't know if this whoever did this thought that she would be just be left here to decompose maybe no one will find her so that's how strong pine saw is yeah it'll cover the stuff yeah that's all i can imagine but he should have done it away from the front door because that's everybody smelled the pine saw right weird or was he doing it to like get rid of any sort of dna that's possible too i mean because that's i imagine that'll clean that shit up it'll clean everything up it doesn't that doesn't work though there's dna sticks around unless you really get it on the thing, like especially under fingernails. Yeah. Mindy's a fighter.

Yeah, yeah. This guy, he realizes that the belt around her neck is a cloth belt, and we never find out if it's Mindy's belt or not. That's what I'd like to know. Is this something someone brought with them or something they just found on the spot? Same thing with the knives. Are these Mindy's knives,

or did this person bring a kill kit of a belt and knives? That's a different thing here. There's no usable fingerprints found on the knives, which is very – fingerprints are really tough. They just – they don't – They smudge. They smudge. They smear.

It's really hard to get a good print here. They do get DNA from the knives. Terrific. Two male DNA hits on this. Oh, two different ones. Two different males on this with two knives, which is interesting. Yeah. Because there's two knives.

Also, on the inside of rubber gloves that were found at the apartment as well. They've left them? They left them, which is, I guess if they're bloody, you'd probably don't want to take them with you, but leaving them is leaving your DNA behind. But I don't think in 2006 everybody was aware of how you can get, just like if your skin cells fall off in a thing, people probably thought you needed a hair.

You're sweating your ass off inside of a plastic glove. Those things, fuck, they're so wet in there. Hair samples are collected from the crime scene, including one from the left-hand palm of Mindy there. The hair is never traced to anybody. Really? So no idea where the fuck that came from. Could have been anyone.

Random ass hair. So they believe that she was stabbed and strangled around 1230 p.m. Because at 1247 is when a phone call came in and she didn't answer and she never answers the phone after that. So they assume sometime between 1225 when she was seen and 1247 when she didn't answer her phone. It's a very short window it's like a 20 22 minute window of of or it was happening when that phone call came in too that could have happened as well absolutely but at some point it started in that window yeah yeah it started in that window so that's what they're and that's what they have to know so they can you

know when they get suspects they can narrow down where were you between this time and this time type of shit so um questioned a little bit further they said they they estimated the time of death by considering when apartment building residents started smelling pine salt as well great point yeah that's another thing now there is another weird one here though because because there is a woman named Nicole Thorson who was at her mother's apartment in this complex. She went to her mother's apartment earlier in the day after leaving work at 7 30 AM and smelled pine salt. So that's earlier than this morning early. Yeah. Like mid morning. Then she was, went to the apartment again at two o'clock and didn't smell the same odor. But then she went outside at 2.30 and smelled the Pine Sol.

I don't trust this lady's sense of smell at all. It went away. It came back. Get the fuck out of here with that. It was strong. Everybody else smelled it. If it was there, it was there. It's there or it's not there.

Yeah, it's not going away for a while right maybe the wind shifted her so i don't know but so they quickly the cops need realize they need to figure this out they really want a suspect as the guy said they'd love to have one right now he did say that and people are freaking out all the you know any any 21 year old girl at college is for sure locking the door and you know getting a weapon to sleep with and shit. There's a fucking slasher here. Yeah. So they do have DNA from under her fingernails.

Oh. That's not hers. So that's plus, male DNA. So that's something they're really going to look into. And also on her shirt and some blood, there's DNA there as well in her bloody shirt. And also on her shirt and some blood, there's DNA there as well in her bloody shirt. So they look into a few different people like her friend's boyfriend who is a little bit jealous. They look into him.

They look into a man who her coworkers say – we'll talk about this guy. Her coworkers say made her a little uncomfortable at work. He's a guy who used to come in all the time. Also an ex-boyfriend's dad. I think Kyle's dad might be involved in this. Yeah, Kyle's dad they talk about. Random people. Her boyfriend.

Who is it? There's a drifter guy that literally lives in a camper at the edge of town they want to talk to, too, because he comes to the diner sometimes and requests her section. Really? Yeah, that's what I mean. There's a lot of people. And where do you start? So one person is her neighbor. The first guy they want to talk to is the guy who just happened to be hanging outside the fucking apartment and going in and touching her. You just touched a dead body?

What are you, nuts? Yeah, out of your mind. So they questioned him. Yeah. So they question him. They asked him what he was doing during the time of the murder, which the medical examiner has said happened between 1223 and 1247. And that's only based on evidence, not on medical evidence, because you cannot pinpoint even now. You can't pinpoint a body even close to that. 24 minutes. Fuck no. It's like a four to six hour window they can get it within because so many factors are a thing. So the neighbor said, they said, what the fuck were you doing?

He said, I was just watching TV in my apartment and I heard, this is how he put it, abnormal noises. Yeah, like a murder? Would you put it like that ever? Would you say I heard abnormal noises? No. Strange, odd, weird. I'd describe them. I don't know that I'd say.

Like a boom, boom, like a bang. Like you were trying to tell a mechanic what was wrong with your transmission. For sure. It makes like a knocking noise. your transmission for sure it makes like a knocking noise like i would have descriptions of the exact noises i've heard not weird words to like what did he say abnormal noises no i'm not sure so he said he ran into the apartment by the way our terrible band that plays 10 seconds of fur release and heart and soul we're callingnormal Noises when we hit the road. That's how this is working.

It's the name of our band. Can't wait. Thank you, Weird Neighbor Guy, for naming our band. We are Abnormal Voices. We are Abnormal Noises. We don't know how to play instruments. Thank you, Minneapolis. Good night. Thank you.

He said, like I said, he ran into the apartment, and he said it looked like Mindy had been strangled. So police ran a background check on him and he's, he's been in prison before. Oh, that's not great. No. Um, he's been in prison for some stuff. Well, he's been in prison for like stealing a car and had some weed on him and stuff like that. No violent crimes, no rapes, no burglary, no like the residential burglaries and stuff like that no violent crimes no rapes no burglary no like the

you know residential burglaries or shit like that the fun shit yeah he's out having a good time i picture him like we with like a beer out the window as he's joyriding while he's getting arrested joint in the other hand here um then also they notice he's got fucking cuts all over him on his finger he's got a band-aid he's got a slash on his arm he's got a cut on his other hand he's got fucking cuts all over him on his finger he's got a band-aid he's got a slash on his arm he's got a cut on his other hand he's got all sorts of cuts on him and well they find out he's a steel worker guy yay he does steel work and tin shit and stuff like that yeah so that's what he said he goes well i cut this one this day i cut it here this day he goes i cut my hands every day i get cut every single day.

And they're like, interesting that you would. Because one of the cuts is a pretty deep one. He said, I got that on the 13th. They're like, hmm. How do you know the date? OK. That's weird. Because it was like two days later.

So he goes, yeah, I got that on that Wednesday, which is the day of the murder. So interesting. So they go, well, tell you what. How about we swab that cheek, buddy? What do you think of that get some dna off you he said no problem and uh so they get the dna from him and then they let him go now little investigation they talk to his supervisors at work and they say he does cut the shit out of himself all the time all the time everybody he's a sieve they said

everybody's walking around with fucking wounds all over them at this place we call him first aid yeah it's but it's everybody there yeah not just him it's just my whole crew it's the whole crew yeah the walking wounded they're just that refuse to wear the pb i give them the pb they refuse to wear it doesn't work i give them gloves and they say they're too baggy i'll just cut a finger not happening happening. That's how they do. So they release him for now while his DNA gets cooking. Boyfriend is a suspect, obviously. That's always number one suspect.

Boyfriend, ex-boyfriend. That's who you're talking to. Jordan Kyle. Let's talk to both of you. Jordan Kyle. Oh, yeah. So they talk to Jordan. He was with her the night before. She was dead Tuesday night.

He said at 1045 a.m. on Wednesday, the day of the murder, he had a conversation with her on his cell phone before he went to work plowing a field. So he was out plowing. He doesn't have a lot of punch-in type things. He's out plowing a field, which he could be a mile that way. Sure. But a lot of these farm equipment today plowing those things got gps and just like a car so they know if that son of a bitch was

running probably not in 2006 though maybe not nah i don't think so not because i don't think of my two yeah i had a 2006 dodge ram it didn't have anything from the fucking fuck no gps no if you have a tractor that's yeah navigation was legit you were a baller 2006 on your on your built into the dash so uh now he said he didn't finish work until about 8 4040 p.m., and he had just gone to bed when his father came in and told him at 9 o'clock that Mindy had been killed. So he said that's how he found out from his dad just after he went to bed after working in the fields all day long. Being a plow boy, yeah. Yeah.

So they interview him several times. They keep having him come back again, have him tell that story one more time. How about again? How about tomorrow? Maybe you'll forget. And Bruce, his dad, he will say that his son came out to the field about an hour before the time. He said that he came. He was in the field well before 1230.

So he said that between 1230 and 1, his son was plowing the field and remain plowing the field throughout the afternoon. So it's an alibi, but it's from his dad. So who knows now? How about a suspicious man? Okay. This guy here, um, one guy that people said stood out to Mindy's friends, especially her one friend, Lacey. Lacey told a police sergeant that the man was carrying a laundry basket at one point and appeared unaware of the... This guy was just walking around with a laundry basket and everybody was out there, like, mourning and shit.

And their friend was like, this guy's weird. He's like, log lady in Twin Peaks? You should check on him. Wandering around with this? Yeah. Yeah, just, like, wandering through the complex, almost like like voyeuristically hanging. Oh, a bunch of people morning just holding his laundry basket. Like he went to the laundry room and he was just like, hey, what's going on here? What do we got?

Like a little barbecue happening in the front. But then just people crying again, carrying the laundry. Yeah. One more again with the laundry and police detectives with notes and shit. You know, it's just strange stuff. So that guy is identified as Maurice Moe Gibbs. Yeah. Actually, his name is Moe Maurice Gibbs.

That's his official name. Really? Yes. Moe, which is usually short for Maurice, but in this case it is Moe Maurice Gibbs. He is a corrections officer or jail he works at the jail the city jail so i don't think that's a co or just a guard or whatever the fuck that is so he uh he also had worked in the past as a night security guard at the university okay so there's that guy um he was in the military as well.

They asked him about that. He said he had been dishonorably discharged from the army because of an assault. So they take his DNA, kick his ass out too. Now, let's talk to Kyle. Yeah. Step up, Kyle. Your turn. So Mindy and Kyle stayed for about two and a half years they broke

up a few months before the death and according to him he says well she had a very flirty personality okay which is a just a to put put put down somebody who is well dead that's not even putting down no he didn't say she blew everybody she's a flirty personality which to me says who knows she could have been talking to anybody like that somebody could yeah somebody could that's a suspicious statement for me for me yeah my my you know ears are up when i hear that i don't like anybody talking like that about people yeah should have very flirty personality he said that he they had been in contact for a while um or they hadn't been but she had been in contact with his dad his dad called mindy that afternoon of her murder yes which is interesting kyle's dad called

um he said that he had been uncomfortable kyle was, with her dad and Mindy still talking. He didn't like that. Yeah, that's fucking weird, Dad. Weird. And, yeah, he said that it was actually ruining his relationship with his father, that his father still talked to his ex-girlfriend. Stop trying to fuck my ex-girlfriend, Dad. That's what it looks like. I don't know that you are, but that's what it feels like.

Either way, it's creepy. You have kids. It's good enough here, so stop doing this shit. So they brought Dad in, and it is revealed that Dad was one of the last people to call Mindy, actually. They take DNA from both of them. Neither of them are a match on the DNA. They're ruled out, obviously. None of their DNA is laying around.

All right, how about a weirdo? Let's talk about the town weirdo. Yeah, the guy in the trailer down the way. Yeah. A few weeks here before she had died, first of all, there was Taurus guy. That's one guy. Then there's another guy. She had gone to the police station to report that someone had been following her.

Oh. Someone's following her. Now she's dead in her apartment. That's a pretty good avenue to go on. She was very scared and she told all of her mom and friends about it too. She felt like she was being followed. Like I said, she worked at the restaurant and there was one guy who lived across the street from the restaurant in a camper. I don't like that. He is described as, quote, a drifter and loner, which is... Yeah, he lives in a fucking camper.

When you find this girl dead, the first thing you say, are there any drifters or loners about? That's like the first thing they think about. Possibly a guy who lives alone. Yeah. Has nobody. Non-traditional housing, we'll call it you know what i'm saying lives in a fucking camper yeah is a little bit creepy that's the first guy you talk to in town is his domicile perhaps uh something that people will can only

tolerate for three to five days does Does he empty his shitter ever? Is that a thing that happens? Because I don't have to empty my house shitter. Does he oftentimes have to hook up a hose to his building? Let's talk to him. Let's talk to shithose guy. Come on in and bring your shithose, Mr. Drifter. Does he have to plug his house in?

Yes, that's what i'm wondering to like an extension cord coming out of the gas station so he's a drifter and a loner they bring him in for questioning he tells the police that he didn't know mindy and had never been in the restaurant huh meanwhile he lives across the street and all that sort of thing he also had cuts on his arm as well. Uh-oh. He said he was doing some maintenance work, and that's how he got cuts on his arm. Had to try the toilet.

Yeah. Had to empty the chemical toilet. For work, like he was making a couple of bucks. That's how he buys, you know. Yeah. So they get DNA from this guy. His DNA is not a match either. He was the front runner. People were like, that from this guy. His DNA is not a match either. He was the front runner.

People were like, that's the guy. It's a match for something probably. Yes. And the friends had said that guy had come in the restaurant, asked for her and all that. Now he's lying to them too. So either he just knows I'm the drifter loner. They're going to question me. I better deny everything.

And that's what he did. Or he's suspicious. But the DNA doesn't match. So moving on. Excluded. Get the fuck out. He goes. Now they're going to go back to Mo Maurice Gibbs over here. Yeah.

Okay. Because they want to talk to him because they just get a weird vibe off this guy. And he's got an assault in the past that he talked about, which isn't big. It's an assault. You punch a guy or something. It's not the same as stabbing a woman to death obviously so they search his vehicle and no evidence of anything is found in there there's no blood at all they find or anything like that and no pine saw like he has like a a

trunk full of pine saw or something that's his signature he's the pine saw killer he's got a bunch of bottles he buys in bulk he's planning a real assault on the Valley City area. So his apartment is also searched. No evidence linking him to Mindy or to her death found in his apartment as well. Because he lives right by her. He's in the apartment complex. So September 18th, this is five days after the murder, DNA results all come back in. Here we go.

Okay. Now, first of all, before we get to that, no scratches were noticed on Gibbs' hands, but he had scratches on his hands because he indicated that he did have some cuts on his hands. Gibbs said himself. He said he had some cuts on his left hand and on his right hand. He said he cut himself while moving boxes the day after the murder is what he said. Because he and his wife are at this time and were during that week in the process of moving out of this apartment complex. Oh.

So they're packing and shit like that. So he says and also he cut himself quote while putting in or removing his stepdaughter from the car seat which i've never heard of that before they generally make those real edges thank you yeah say the obvious why would they do that jimmy those are children that are sitting there's babies in them why. Yeah. There's a one-year-old just flailing out. They would be a fucking fountain of blood afterwards. Just a sprinkler. Which Graco has the razor blade edges?

Yeah, no. There is no way you could cut yourself on a car seat. It would be very difficult. Maybe on the back if there was some sharp plastic. I don't know. That thing wouldn't pass safety regulations. There would be lawsuits. So they're like, wow, did your stepdaughter cut you?

Did she stab you while you were doing that? She's filing down the edges of her car seat because she hates you? She's fucking nasty. So now, but the DNA that was collected from under her nails does come back as a match to Mo Maurice Gibbs. Mo. Mo, what are you doing? So who the fuck is Moe Maurice Gibbs? Let's talk about it.

What's going on? So this is, he's 34 years old. He's the hamper man? He's the hamper man, exactly. The hamper man cometh here. So he, when he went to the, this time, because they get the DNA, but they also call him down to the station

before they arrest him. They say, are you willing to take a polygraph test? Yeah. Because they don't know. Maybe they shook hands. Who knows? You know what I mean? So the examiner tells Mo that his answers are inconsistent, and then they ask

how his DNA would have been found under her nails. Now they hit him with that. By the way, how would your DNA be found under her nails now that he failed the polygraph? He said he didn't know and that he was never in her apartment. Dude. So I don't know. The wind doesn't do that.

That's what I'm saying. That's a rough one. Now his wife's name is Christina Judd. Yeah. She's one of the Judds, I believe, that didn't quite make the band. Yeah. She didn't make the band. They're down one right now. They're down a Judd at this point.

She's going to step up. She'd been married to Gibbs for about three months before the murder happened. He's a newlywed, for Christ's sake. Yeah. And she tried to explain where he was until about 1 p.m. She said she knew. She said that he returned to their apartment at about 7 a.m. from a 12 hour shift at the jail.

Yeah. So he works night 12 to 7 to 7 at the jail. That's a fucked shift. But everybody all the jail people say that's the easy shift because nobody does anything. It's just the drunks coming in. That's got to be a pain in the ass. You do a count, but eight hours of it is everybody's lights out. They're not allowed to do anything.

So you just sit there and jerk off, basically. So nobody's, less stabbings, I would assume. I imagine, yeah. So I don't know how many stabbings are in the Valley City County fucking jail either. I doubt there's much. That's when people suicide, though. That's that'll happen in the middle of the night. You know, when no one's looking.

Yeah. So they said that he got home at seven. He went to bed and slept until about 11 a.m. So he did a little half sleep there. 11 a.m. So he did a little half sleep there. At that point, he got up and took Judd and her daughter, his stepdaughter, Tiana, to – she's a toddler.

That's who he might have – obviously has a vicious car seat she's got. Yeah. Oh, God. He took them to lunch after dropping off a vehicle at Judd's parents' house. after dropping off a vehicle at Judd's parents' house. After lunch, Gibbs dropped Judd off at her job between 12.20 and 12.30, at which time she punched the clock, so we know that's a fact. Then, a few minutes after Gibbs dropped her off at work, Judd said, now she's seven months pregnant, by the way.

God damn it. With his kid. Now, she's seven months pregnant, by the way. God damn it. With his kid. So she said she sent text messages to Gibbs asking him to get her something to drink and bring it to her at work. So he returned five to ten minutes later with the beverage. 12.40. So we're in this window, hardcore at this point. So Gibbs said that after he dropped off the drink, he returned to his apartment where he parked his vehicle with items they were relocating because they were moving in with Judd's parents.

They were slowly moving shit over there. So Gibbs said that he made three trips to his in-laws house. He returned the second time at about 2.15 p.m. and the third time at about 4.30 p.m. So he's taken loads of boxes over at a time. p.m. and the third time at about 4.30 p.m. So he's taken loads of boxes over at a time. He said at 4.30 he stayed and talked with his father-in-law until he picked up Christina at work. And he said when they got home in the evening, the smell of pine saw was heavy in the

apartments. He could smell pine saw as well. He said he smelled it during the afternoon, but he just thought maybe there was a vacant apartment and they were cleaning it and then airing it out. So he didn't think anything of it. That's his story. Now, Judd, though, because he said he smelled it all day. Judd says that his wife says she didn't smell the chemical on either Gibbs or on the daughter.

She didn't like smell it on his hands. Pines off to get it on you get on your clothes it's around yeah you're gonna smell like pine salt she also said that gibbs was wearing the same clothing as when he dropped her off at work when he picked her up yeah and didn't smell like pine salt okay or have or he wasn't covered in viscera either so that's viscera and pine salt in yeah same clothes from this morning morning. So that lends to he didn't change. That's interesting. So they said later in the evening when they were putting the kid to bed, the toddler to bed just before 9 p.m., that's when they noticed flashing lights outside.

And Judd said she went out and got some information that a murder had been committed in the apartment complex. So the family leaves the apartment and stays with her parents that night. Who knows if there's a psycho killer out there, you know? So he came in voluntarily, by the way, for this. They didn't have to, like, arrest him. They called him, asked him to come in. He walked right down there, happily took a polygraph, let them take DNA. Now, who the fuck is this guy?

Well, Mo Maurice Gibbs isn't his real name that's one thing oh um that he just changed it to that a year ago why so when they did a background check on him on mo maurice gibbs nothing came up they didn't get anything they didn't get shit uh when they look up glenn dale morgan jr oh now there's some shit because that's his real name. Yeah. He changed it to Mo Maurice Gibbs. Glenn Dale. Jesus. Glenn Dale Morgan here. Junior, by the way.

If you listen to Crime and Sports, which, by the way, listen to Crime and Sports if you're not. Yeah. There's a rule about this. There's murders going on. There's all sorts of stuff. And your stupid opinions while you're at it.

Yeah. God damn it, that's funny. Jesus Christ. So there's a junior rule here that's usually not good if someone's a junior. So now Glenn over here, we'll just call him Moe because we know him as Moe at this point. He was born in 1972 in Merced County, California. His mother was 15 years old.

Shit. When she had him. And his father was 20. So his father was a child molester let's just call that what it is i'm sorry that's not oh she's a sophomore he's a senior that's he's a sophomore in college who's got a day she's a sophomore in high school yeah not good all right yeah he's got a day job and bills right Right. He knows how to pay an electric bill. That's a grown man.

Too old. So his father, the 20-year-old, was a maintenance worker at the time. So he wasn't even in school. He was a fucking just a maintenance worker plowing a sophomore. Gross. That's just gross. He was employed with Merced College, though, at the time as a maintenance worker. Yeah.

So he had access to an entire campus of age-appropriate women. Right. And he said, 15-year-old. That'll do. Wow. These are long maids. I did find, and I believe this is him, when he's 18 years old, because it lines up perfectly with the age, Glenn, Dale, Moe, Gibbs here. Moe, when he's 18 years old, he looks like he got married in Pensacola, Florida.

He was married to a Tasha Ann McGraw, who was an 18-year-old from Chicago. So he's married to her. That makes sense that he'd be in Pensacola because he is in the U.S. Navy at that time. Oh, is that right? sense that he'd be in pensacola because he is in the u.s navy at that time oh is that right he joined the u.s navy in august 90 and he will be dishonorably discharged in july 99 and we'll tell you what happened there um he claims when he got a job at the jail he put a bunch of shit on his resume number one he put his mo maurice gibbs is his name and he claimed that he was a search and rescue supervisor in the Navy. But in fact, for five and a half years of the time he was enlisted, he was actually an inmate at the U.S. disciplinary barracks in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

He's actually in the fucking Army pokey in Leavenworth. In the brig. Yeah. Yeah. Not great. He was in there from 90 january 92 to april 98 what did he do attempted premeditated murder attempted attempted premeditated murder and he only got six years yeah because he didn't it didn't work

apparently um that is fucking wild. So he didn't tell anybody about that part of that. No shit. He just said assault. He changed his name from Glendale Morgan Jr. to Mo Maurice Gibbs on April 15, 2005. So, or August 15th. Barely a year he's been this name in North Dakota is when he changed it. That tells you he's been suffering for a long time because of this Glendale name. He's got to get a new one.

Glendale Jr. It's a lot. And he went with like a Bee Gees name? Mo Maurice Gibbs. Sounds like a bass player. And he's a big black guy, too. That's the other thing. So I don't know if he's, you know, I want to look like Andy Gibb, I don't think is his fucking.

Yeah, that's not it. Probably not. So anyway, in 2005, he changed his name and he gave the reason on his petition at the Cass County District Court as, quote, my father abandoned me and has never been a part of my life. I want to no longer be known as having the same last name. Also, Glenn's been to prison. Well, another thing on there, he also wrote that he's never been convicted of a crime or a felony lied lies and they okayed the name change in june 2005 and uh not only was he doing other shit he works at the jail but before he worked at the jail in the spring of 2006 he was the basketball coach for valley city parks and Recreation League team.

What? Youth basketball is what he's coaching. Put him around the kids. That's nice. One person said that he coached for her son's Valley City Parks and Rec League team, and she said, quote, he was an awesome coach. The nicest. Great guy. She said that, quote, everyone felt so fortunate to have someone of his talent coaching the boys who were ages 8 and 9 and really looked up to him. He was such a good coach.

He could get down on the level of 8 and 9-year-old boys. That would be great if we didn't have other problems. Right. She said she also knew him as, you know, an employee in the area because this lady, her name is Schweitzer. She lived in the Fargo area. She said Gibbs wanted a job at the Wagon Wheel Inn in Valley City so that he could be near his fiance. Sure. She was there at the time. That's before they got married. So she said that Gibbs's fiance had worked in the at the inn a long time ago and came with Gibbs for the job interview to explain their situation and to help him get the job. So she was like, hey, here's my soon-to-be husband. This lady said that it was explained to her that Gibbs lived in Fargo during the week and wanted to come to Valley City on the weekend. So could you get him a job? Also, the Valley City State University spokesman said that Gibbs worked as a security guard at the school from February 24th to April 15th, 2006. Just for a couple of months?

Just for a couple of months. And that's when he got the job at the jail. Got it. That's how that went. So, yes, he claims, by the way, on his resume that not only was he a search and rescue supervisor in the Navy, he was a night supervisor of 15 to 35 personnel, trained all new incoming personnel, created schedules and directed duties to all personnel and assisted with assisted and was directly involved in all search and rescue missions. All of them. Holy. He's Mr. Search and Rescue. None of that sounds even possible.

He also claimed on his resume that from 2000 to 2003, he studied whatever this, quote, medical assisting. Oh, yeah. That's how he put it, medical assisting um at whatcom university which sounds like you made it up again it sounds like some what comes or some shit yeah it's on that commercial is on like while you're waiting to see if the person's the father on maury they have the whatcom community college dot com university yeah what doc What the fuck is that.com? This is in Bellingham, Washington. From April 2002 to May 2003, he was the lead shipper at a company called Fast Cap in Bellingham. And then he was in Texas, he says, from August 2003 to May 2004, where he was studying medical assisting at the Hallmark Institute of Technology in San Antonio, Texas.

And he also was working at SeaWorld in San Antonio. What? I assume training the dolphins to speak because he's such a fucking genius, this guy. He's making orcas, you know, play fucking Pinochle with you or some shit. So also he at that during that time. Oh, he worked in the shipping and receiving department, he said, at SeaWorld. At SeaWorld, yeah. June 2003 to December 2004.

During that time, he also, according to the Texas Boxing Association, so technically we could have done this one either way. Yeah. The Texas Boxing and Wrestling Program, he was a licensed Texas boxer from August 2003 to August 2004. He didn't renew his license, but he had a full year of boxing license. Yes. Then he was in North Dakota from June 2004 to May 2005. He studied physical education at Mayville State University and was working at a housekeeper at the Wingate Inn from June 2005 to December

2005. So his girlfriend. And then we know where he was from there, security guard, blah, blah, blah. Right. That's when he got a job at the Wagon Wheel, which he kept through March, and then he left for something else and all of that. His boss said that he was good at his job. He didn't do anything wrong.

They also say the role of night security staff is to walk around campus when he's a night security guard and check that doors are locked and that people are where they're supposed to be there were no incidents that he reported or involved him in any way so at a hotel at a on campus that is okay got it at the campus so that's he wasn't going around climbing in co-eds windows or anything nobody reported anything um they said at the school the school did a criminal background check on gibbs when he was hired right and the guy who did it said quote we found nothing it came up clean yeah it's two weeks old yep too fucking unreal so then he got a job as a CO at Barnes County Jail. Yeah. He married Christina Judd in June 2006.

And by the way, she is the daughter of a university's athletic director. Really? Yes. So Gibbs' wife here, Judd, is an artist and a photographer. And she graduated from Valley City State University. Sure. And she's pregnant with his kid um what his old boss said quote he seemed like a very loving father to his daughter and new wife right meaning a stepdaughter um he registered for classes the spring before at

the university but withdrew before the classes started so they said that he used to come to the athletic events with his family. One person at the college said he carried himself very well, was always respectful. There wasn't anything abnormal about this guy. Abnormal must be a big word in North Dakota. It's the Canadian joke. That's the Canadian joke, absolutely. So his wife had graduated from the college, and that's why they were moving out of the apartment complex and they were moving into her parents' house for something.

So around 3 p.m., George Judd, his father-in-law, confirms that Mo Gibbs stopped at his house on the way to Fargo to pick up his wife from the airport because the father was going to the airport. He said Gibbs was at the house when he left to go pick up his wife. He said Gibbs wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary, nothing abnormal. Don't worry. Judd noticed no scratches or Band-Aids on his hands. He said Gibbs was at the Judd residence with his stepdaughter because they were going to move in with them. So the DNA they found here, Gibbs' DNA was on the fingernails of Morgan Stern's left hand

and on the front of her bloody shirt. Oh. Okay. So that's two spots. That's not great. Not good at all. So the problem is DNA samples from two other people were also found under the fingernails of a right hand. Oh.

Yes. But they can never match those to anybody. But his DNA is not on a knife nor in a glove. Yeah. But there are other people. So it's very fucking strange here. But his DNA is on her and under her fingernails, which would tend to be. And he's saying he never went near her and never went in her apartment.

So that would be difficult. If he said, yeah, I gave her a pound outside, you know what I'm saying? We did a little. We knuckled up. We knuckled up. We did a little, you know, one of these and then one of them and a palm and like a bro hug at the end. The coolest handshake you guys have ever seen. yeah but that's not what he said so um gibbs maintains his innocence though he says but he has no explanation as to how his dna was found on her

doesn't understand it yeah hey just tell you i well it's a pretty i think i can guess probably i'd be i'd be screaming how the fuck is that possible? Yeah. That doesn't make any sense. I don't understand that. Anyway, that's abnormal. That sure is abnormal. Yeah.

So a statement released by the office here, sheriff's office, said that Gibbs was in the Valley City Law Enforcement Center on a voluntary basis. He was unarmed and placed under arrest at approximately 6 p.m. without incident. His vehicle was seized as well. So the DNA and now analyst here at the North Dakota Crime Laboratory, Hope Wilson, tested will testify later on about analysis of DNA taken from fingernail scrapings or clippings from her. Now, this is going to get real technical on DNA for about five minutes. If you've ever wanted to know real technical shit about DNA, this is going to be your window here. Maybe three minutes. She said that the DNA found matched a profile of Gibbs.

The major profile was Gibbs. DNA found matched a profile of Gibbs. The major profile was Gibbs. The total amount of DNA taken was 41.2 nanograms. How much is that? A very little amount, but it's DNA under fingernails. It's not... Nanograms. Nanograms, yeah.

Like how they measure for THC in blood. Nanograms per milliliter. Little amounts. Like how they measure for THC in blood, nanograms per milliliter, little amounts. But out of all of that, 75% of the DNA found belonged to Gibbs. He had 30.8 nanograms of his DNA was under there. They also, because he's going to have lawyers that say it's a transfer. It's a secondary transfer.

They could have touched the same doorknob. That's literally what they say. Oh, boy. She goes to the laundry room, touches the doorknob. He goes, boom, under her fingernails. Now he's a murderer. That's what they're saying. So this person from the lab said that his DNA could not have come from a secondary transfer. She said that she agreed that the small amount of DNA could be touch DNA, but it can't be

like a secondary transfer, which is a different thing. He would have touched her, she's saying. It had to be touched. She said, though, the DNA found on Mindy's right hand did not belong to Gibbs. The DNA found on the knife in Mindy's throat did not belong to Gibbs either, but it did belong to another guy. Yeah. So this is confusing as fuck is what this is.

So they get a computer analyst to examine the hard drive of his computer, Gibbs. Moe's? Yeah. Moe. And it showed internet activity beginning at 1.07 p.m. and going on for a period of roughly two hours. Okay. Now, did she know him? This is something we need to know.

Well, Jordan, her boyfriend, said that other than seeing him and passing and saying hello, he doesn't think she knew Gibbs at all. Okay. Just doesn't think so. But he had seen Gibbs' car parked outside her apartment building

because she lives there. So they asked about Jordan. They say, what do you think the motive is? You're asking her ex or her fucking boyfriend. What does he know? He said, I don't have the foggiest notion. I am very, very angry. No shit.

OK, I bet you are. And I don't blame you. So the police also said they the chief again. Here he comes, mister. I wish we had a suspect. Yeah. He said, quote, I don't think they found a motive and they feel they can i don't feel like i think they found a motive they feel they could hang their hat on is what he says so his wife now his wife has a

different story judd now his wife says that gibbs told her after his arrest that this is, he doesn't say anything about this till after his arrest tells her that he had helped Mindy carry laundry into her apartment the day before the murder. Look day before though. But he never says that till after he's arrested. Okay. He's like, well that could have been at the day before, you know,

I helped her in and you know, maybe when I was grabbed it from her hand or something. First of all, she doesn't need help carrying shit, number one. She carries bales of hay. And I've got a new story to tell? Uh-oh. Yeah, and this is a very convenient story of how DNA might have been on her from him. Right.

And she said so he had calped her in there. And she said so he had calped her in there. The wife said she does not remember what day Gibbs pointed out scratches on his hands, but she thought it was September 11th, 12th, or 13th. Okay. So any of those days. Judd's sister, Angela, also says that Gibbs pointed out to her a deep scratch on his left hand and a scratch on his face on September 15th. Oh, he already had there. And his face, which makes sense because you'd be grabbing at faces if someone was strangling you. So Gibbs told her that it was Judd's daughter that caused the scratch on his face and that

he had cut his hand on the tailgate of a Chevy Blazer while moving. Okay. Again, just he sawing off tailgate. Tailgates are not that sharp they're just not they don't get your hands usually no no there's not like a tin edge on it it's you know it's surrounded for a purpose there so that's his story there so he has multiple stories about how he got cuts he has multiples once once it's a car seat then it's the tailgate of the blazer it's on boxes then it's his fucking stepdaughter so this is interesting uh the world is too sharp for him

he is very very oh pokeable paper thin paper thin yeah he's like a 90 year old just i mean you can see his blood through his skin coming out he's just spewing it everywhere everywhere he is he's a sprinkler this man a human sprinkler so the sister also said that she and her sister his wife talked about mindy's murder on september 15th but gibbs did not join in the conversation he said they were because it's if someone two doors down from you gets brutally murdered you're going to gossip about that for and they haven't caught the guy in the apartment complex at all if their address is the same as ours minus yeah uh unit number we're talking about it and they haven't even caught the person yet right so now you're playing detective on top of everything jesus so they said but he wouldn't join the conversation she said quote mo was really quiet about it He really didn't say much of anything, which is strange. She said, though, they said, was he is he a real like boisterous guy? And they said, no, that's not out of the ordinary. He's usually pretty quiet.

They also have a timeline of his cell phone and internet use, which shows a gap of more than an hour where he was unaccounted for on September 13th. Where there's no calls, no interview, no internet use, and nobody saw him or knew where he was. For an hour. Yeah. So they say that the information from Gibbs' cell phone here and text message records, call and text records show myspace yahoo and ms jesus this is 2007 or 2006 this is the yahoo msn and myspace is what he was on yeah show he was unaccounted for one hour and five minutes on september 13th and uh the cop says, I believe that time allows him time to kill Mindy Morgenstern. Sure.

The timeline included two cell phones used by Gibbs, the cell phone of Gibbs' wife, Christina Judd, and also they had Mindy's cell phone and computer records they were trying to see. Mindy's last communication

was around 1230, first missed call at 12 46 so short window people obviously are shitting their pants shocked here about the whole thing this is horrific yes they everyone interviewed by this newspaper could not find anyone to say a bad word about mo by the way wow great guy did no self-destructive habits He wasn't a drinker He wasn't a gambler He wasn't this He wasn't a womanizer

He was into his wife And his pregnant wife And all that here For him I mean yeah They said he's known His boss said That you know

At the wagon wheel Said he's known as a nice guy By everybody Yeah She said it upset a lot of people And she also said That this murder Quote Upset a lot of people and she also said that this murder quote upset a lot of little boys in valley city it's a basketball coach oh yeah that's coach that they liked here

um so yeah they talk about uh then they find a couple of his ex-girlfriends oh one doesn't say nice things usually not um two of them that they find here. One of them here is Cheryl. She says she had children by him as well. So he's got kids out there somewhere by her back when he wasn't Gibbs. They said they were also unaware of his criminal records here. Yeah. Now, the one ex-girlfriend said she was aware of the thing in the army, but she said that it resulted from a fight outside a nightclub in which a bullet hit a female bystander. You want to talk about leaving out a chunk of the story?

He shot a woman? A bullet hit a female bystander like it fell out of the sky. He shot at someone, missed and hit a fucking female, hit some poor lady by mistake, so they put him in jail. He's a bad shot. That's not even good. And it was premeditated, so he decided somebody was going to die and shot at them, missed and hit somebody. Holy fuck. He planned it, went there, so I'm going to kill this motherfucker.

Bang. Ow. Sorry. That's interesting. Missed. Missed. So this this woman Goh was her last name. G-O like Doh with a G. She said she wrote letters to Gibbs and he wrote letters back to her while he was in Leavenworth and they got together again after his release. She said that Gibbs told her he was taking responsibility for what he had done and trying to better himself and create

a different life. She said that the couple did split up when she found out that he was cheating on her, though. That's a bridge too far. That'll do. A boxing coach who worked with Gibbs said Gibbs also told him that he was trying to straighten up his life, too. He said, quote, he was capable of creating mayhem in the ring. But, you know, it's funny. There was this gentle side of him that I liked too.

He was like this gentle giant, but behind the gentle giant, I knew he could be a killer in the ring. In the ring is a very important addition to that. You know what he was in the brig for? Yeah, yeah. One thing that bothers me is that she wasn't hit or anything. There's no- There's no assault. I feel like- It's just strangle stab.

Yeah, I feel like his first fucking go-to would be punching, because how do you get a belt around someone's neck to the point where it stays there? It's tough. So I thought they did a background check on this guy, especially when he got a job at the jail. Right here. But they found out that the Barnes County officials that hired him conducted a state criminal background check only. So just in the state, just in North Dakota. Oh, my God. Just for Mo Maurice Gibbs in North Dakota.

Oh, my God. It's just for Mo Maurice Gibbs in North Dakota. Oh, Jesus Christ. And they didn't do a national check and did not look into his former name either. They just said, oh, you're fine. They really fucked up. They fucked up. Well, wait till you hear how bad they fucked up to hire him as a jailer because it's going to come out. He's a fucking monster. Whether he did this or not, he's a monster.

Yeah. He said that this guy guy said he was his department was aware that gibbs had changed his name from glendale morgan jr he even gave them the other fucking name but they they said that they didn't believe anything would come up under that name so they just didn't do it probably not nothing came up under this one probably not that one either he's had this name for like six months so he's fine um okay yeah and what the what the sheriff or one of the guys who works there who does the hiring said quote if you would have told me that you could hide your record by changing your name i would have called you a liar really really that's

the reason a lot of people do what the fuck is going on this is insanity why are you so dumb man yeah i bet the attempted premeditated murder would have probably precluded you from being a jail guard, I would assume. For certain, yeah. Yeah. You can hang out on the inside, but you're not getting a uniform. Not one with a badge on it, anyway. So the initial February 24th check on Gibbs was done through the State Bureau of Criminal Investigation. Came back clear, according to this. After he was interviewed for the jailer position here, the Sheriff's Department

asked the Valley City Dispatch Center to undertake additional criminal background checks on Gibbs. They said that the one guy said he expected a national search to be done and believed one had been done, but he didn't specify what search he wanted done so apparently they didn't do it they just did the easiest one he just said search this yeah they go to lunch then this idiot says this quote i just can't blame anybody because i didn't make a request saying you have to check this name you have to check that name i just asked for a records check blame yourself i can blame it's you you're the one in charge telling people to check shit tell them what the check dummy i wasn't specific and uh yeah

that's their fault now you figure that's all them right yeah now you figure maybe it's cost prohibitive to do a national check it's gotta be expensive because it's a small town thing so maybe they don't have the budget for something like that. Oh, wait, no. A national criminal background check on Gibbs would have been conducted free of charge because of the type of position he was applying for, according to FBI Senior Advisor Roy Weiss. Unreal. Free of charge, and results would have been available, what, it's got to take six months, they're all backed up, 24 hours it would have been available. Tomorrow. Tomorrow and free

they said nah he's good wait do you hear what the fuck he did in there based on this this guy should be kicked right in the fucking balls the guy who didn't do this check on him unbelievable now the fbi guy says that the bureau recommends using fingerprints for background checks he said quote names are a big problem period it's a It's a real unreliable identifier. No shit. It's weird how you can just say, I'm this, and then there's no record for that. They said a person's new name is entered into the system only after they're caught and linked with the old name. So it's a huge system.

And the guy who does the hiring at the jail, what does he have to say about this? Quote, how can you hide your record underneath a name change? I'd have never guessed that. Gee, if only it wasn't your job to fucking guess that, then it would be fine. But I wouldn't have guessed it either. But I'm not hiring fucking jail guards, so I don't really have to know that. Is he just like asking names and then hiring? Is that how he does it?

Pretty much. He seems like a decent sort of cuss. Why not? He was a big guy. I think they looked at him and said he's a big guy. He said he used to be a boxer. Jail guard. He said his name's Moe.

I mean, who would pick that? He's huge. He is a big, muscular fucking guy with a bald head. He looks tough. I mean, he looks like a big, tough guy. He really does. So they said that the Barnes County, whole county is reviewing its employment procedures and how it obtains information about potential employees.

Gee, maybe do that. And they said they were doing an internal investigation into the specific hiring of Gibbs. The human resource officer at the North Dakota State Penitentiary said the prison is now changing its policy on background checks because of this. He said the prison didn't use fingerprints in the past either, but now they will. He said a black guy named Moe, that checks out. That checks out. Yeah, look at that. Bald head, muscular, perfect.

Now, why is that so problematic? Why? That he got a job as a jail guard. Well, that's because on October 26, 2006, he is charged with more things. He's charged with six counts of sexual conduct with five female inmates of the Barnes County Jail while they slept. He raped women while they slept in the fucking jail. Yes. He raped six people while they slept in fucking jail.

Unbelievable. yes he raped six people while they slept in fucking jail unbelievable that's why you need background checks because that shit happens these people are completely at this guy's mercy were they just investigating them one by one no this all it was all okay they were looking at it but they knew they were looking at him for something else because it didn't come out until he got arrested and he stopped going to the jail. Then all six women came forward and said, that guy's been raping us at night, by the way. Couldn't tell you because he threatened us. You know, can't do it.

Well, you can't. It's hard to tell on a guard while he's your guard because now that he's not here, we can tell you what he's been doing. Exactly. So that's wild. From May through September, he did this. Fucking hell. That's a long time. That's a long time. That's a long time.

So now he's charged with murder, also six counts of sexual conduct with five different female inmates. He pleads not guilty to the murder, and they're going to wait a while on the other charges here. Oh, by the way, November 13, 2006, another charge comes in. They ran his DNA around a little bit to see if there's any hits his dna is linked to a rape in fargo in june in 2004 oh when he was in fargo by the way so lines up perfectly so this guy's a fucking monster period certainly a sex pest sex predator jesus sex predator so now the theory goes to he tried to hit on this girl because she's a cute young girl. She said, go fuck yourself or whatever.

And he said, oh, I'll fucking strangle you. He didn't rape her, but he attacked her. There's got to be, to break a knife off, there's got to be some anger. We know this guy. How is his DNA not on the fucking knife? That's crazy. So April 10th, 2007, his wife wife christina has his marriage annulled has their marriage annulled she's like enough of this yep yeah she did she asked for an annulment

saying she wouldn't have married him if she had known the truth about his past so they give her the annulment based on that yeah she's a good person yeah she's like i would not have married the scumbag yeah um she said she he lied about his criminal past and also the number of children and marriages that he's had. Because he's been married before. He's had a bunch of kids. His life is just a complete. He tried to wipe it clean with a new name. Jesus.

It's crazy. So Christina said his wife that Moe told her before they were married that he had been incarcerated but lied about the nature of the offense. Yeah. Said he got in a fight outside a bar. Which oh that's normal yeah that happens to a guy in the navy but yeah i saw a car and shot a woman that's gonna put that in there yeah yeah she said her consent to marry him was obtained by fraud which is just a funny sentence i think he snowed me he snowed me up here um yeah the couple by the way still owe around town 1420 for their wedding rings and wedding album so that hasn't been paid for and it's already annulled give the rings back

um that's amazing so he somehow i don't know how but in the somebody he was banging on the outside, he gets engaged to at this point in jail. Really? Yes. At least six rapes. He's up for and a murder of a young woman with this. Yes. They have a daughter. He apparently got her pregnant at some point.

I don't know if it was. I don't know. I don't know if it was in the jail or if it was because we know that's possible, even if there's no conjugal. Just from love after lockup. Yeah. People throw and seed at each other all the time. People will smuggle jizz. That is a thing that happens.

So or they'll fucking sneak off to a broom closet. Yeah. That happened in the one. Yeah, absolutely. In the one there. So that's how she's from Moorhead, Minnesota. This lady, Amy Olson, she's 30. There you go. So motivated by the Gibbs case, the state legislature approves tougher criminal

background check requirements for correctional workers and other professions hired by the state, which is probably good. I would say Jesus Christ, man. One person said, I was kind of surprised when I reviewed the process. I feel it's important to get the background check done at the time of the name change. That feels important, yeah. Yeah, that's good here. There's a guy running for sheriff. He's next time. And he said, I think that law enforcement can have updated information on people with criminal histories is a very good thing.

But I also think we have to look on how it could affect other people who are changing their names, such as people who are getting married or going through adoption. So he's just talking about the whole process. The current sheriff says he believes most law enforcement agencies already have thorough background checks. This was just a fluke. Let's not make a big deal out of it. So one of –

I hope that guy lost. I really do. It's fine. We don't need to submit a free thing that'll be done in 24 hours we don't need that we're doing fine guys it's all fancy book learning i ain't talking about none of that like what are you fucking ridiculous what an idiot so wow um yeah the national search includes criminal civil financial and military records and personal information so any of this stuff anything that would go to the honesty and integrity of the National search includes criminal, civil, financial, and military records and personal information. So any of this stuff, anything that would go to the honesty and integrity of the person. So, yeah, one guy said we check them even if we've known them for 10, 15 years.

We not only check the references when we go talk to somebody, we go get other names to talk to from those references. So that's how other people do it. He doesn't do it. Gibbs, by the way, recently was among 11 law enforcement officials who were honored at a September 11th breakfast in Valley City. It was Monday. Wednesday he's doing this. He was photographed. September 11th, like a tragedy day breakfast, and you're honoring a rapist. Well done, guys.

You've done well. He was photographed alongside the sheriff, or the chief of police, and the Barnes County sheriff, Randy McLaughlin, as well. That's an embarrassing photo. That is a terrible photo to have come out. Now, also, while he's in the jail, there's a guy named Jeremy Leopold. Also, while he's in the jail, there's a guy named Jeremy Leopold. He says he overheard Gibbs confess to the murder while they were watching a television news show explaining how the murder trial was moving to Minot due to all the publicity. This is the guy's quote. This is Leopold's quote.

Quote, he goes exact words. I'd do it again. Fuck it. He gritted his teeth and went, he had a mean look on his face. He had a mean look. I'd do it again. Fuck it. That's what he said he did.

He relived and loved it. Yep. Leopold, who's 30, has a criminal record that includes at least 10 felony convictions and a half a dozen misdemeanor convictions. He wrote a letter to the Cass County State's attorney five weeks after he heard this, um, here. Um, he said, and also he wrote the confession of another man in an unrelated crime. I heard this and I heard this. So they said,

why the fuck did you wait so long to report this? And he said, well, I just found Jesus. That's why I'm trying to get right between then and now. Yeah. I found Jesus shit. Yeah. He said he started reading Between then and now, I found Jesus. I've been a real piece of shit. Yeah.

He said he started reading the Bible, and now he knew that telling the truth was the right thing to do. I just learned it. I just learned it at 30. Didn't realize. He also said that he had met Gibbs when Gibbs was a corrections officer, and he said that Gibbs treated him well and was a good officer. Well, yeah, because he didn't want to rape you. That's why. You're a guy. You don't have anything he wants.

So June of 2007 is the trial here. So quickly, they got to go pretty quick. They had media protests because the judge closes down the courtroom for jury selection. Nobody else in. So they're trying to do all this. They said they were when they go over the trial and they finally pick the jury here. They the defense concentrates a lot on their saying, well, he brought his wife a drink at this time. It's in the text and all that.

So the window's too small. His attorney asked the investigators how they determined the time of death. And they said that they did not consider they didn't ask the coroner to consider body temperature. They were going by because they had electronics instead. So they're like, it's between then and their body temperature doesn't matter because we knew she was alive then and we know she's not now. She talked to somebody then and she's dead here. So, yeah, somewhere two so the defense says so you're saying a missed cell phone call is your sole basis of determining time of death and they said yeah we determined it that from 12 47 on she never answered a telephone right which she could have been taking a dump you know anything yeah she could have just been

in a wicked she could have been in the midst of this she's not necessarily dead yet but that's the other thing there There's shit happening. Yeah. Who knows? And they said, we don't have an exact time. So this sailor guy, he's the investigation guy. He said officials also estimated the time of death by considering when apartment building residents began smelling pine salt, which had been poured on the body, which, again, is not a like a real scientific method. What time did you smell pine salt is not a good way to determine this.

It really isn't. It's tough. Yeah. So but it's honestly the electronic stuff is a way better determination determiner than a coroner could ever make. Right. Coroner will tell you between four and six hours of this. They'll tell you, well, after this, you didn't answer a phone. between four and six hours of this.

They'll tell you, well, after this, you didn't answer her phone. They also said the authorities had more than 350 leads in the case and more than 150 items of evidence. They tested about 125 pieces of evidence at a lab. They said fingernail clippings and scrapings, tested positive for the DNA. Obviously, they had to say that in court. They said that samples of DNA were submitted by 21

people, and Gibbs was the only sample that matched. Out of 21 people that came in contact with her that day or all the time. His lawyer said that couldn't it be that Gibbs could have picked up the DNA material by

touching something that she also touched? Isn't that how it could have been? the DNA material by touching something that she also touched. Isn't that how it could have been? Or the other way around. And they said, how many leads went unresolved? He had 350 leads. And the cop said there was a number, but they don't know how many. So, I mean, obviously some of them they can't track down, whatever. So they had a Verizon wireless company account manager testify that official company records could not verify the time of text messages to Gibbs from his wife.

Weird, right? Her phone shows the messages asking him to bring her something to drink was sent at 1233, which would have kind of put him just about out of that window. I mean, right. It would have to have been right at that window. of put him just about out of that window i mean right it would have to been right at that window um but the verizon guy said other calls on gibbs phone that day show a time that was off an hour from the company's official records yeah so they're saying this might have time zone shit this might happen at 1 33 actually some sort of computer problem they had they said that they asked if there was any way to verify through

the official records that asking for a drink was sent at 12 33 or an hour earlier or an hour later and the guy said i don't i have no way of determining that so yeah they talked to that um now her his wife gibbs her his wife here judd, she said that she first told investigators she sent the message at 1.33, but then later realized it was 12.33, which is interesting. So that's a thing here. defense attorney said that he was not familiar with the one investigator said he was not familiar with all aspects of the investigation, including the results of DNA tests found on cleaning gloves in the apartment. And the defense attorney said, who would know if not you? Who? You're the lead investigator, which is a fact. The lead investigator should know everything.

You're the guy. When you testify, you got to study first to do that. You can't just. The root word of leader is lead lead yeah you're it and you can't and if you actually you don't know what the fuck you're doing the jury loses a lot of confidence in what you're doing he said that other agents handled part of the investigation and that some reports from an independent lab went directly to attorneys because they happened after okay yeah there was an arrest and after attorneys were already found.

He said, the investigator, that the hallway in the building, Mindy's building, was not checked for evidence of biological fluids until 14 days after her death. Holy. That's terrible. He said, we were following up and just looking for what we could. He said that fluids might be degraded by then and who knows. For sure. It could have been out there.

But yeah, who the fuck knows. So people walking back and forth over it with dog shit and mud on their feet and everything else. There's pine salt all over. Pine salt all over. Yeah, people walking in and out with pine salt all over their feet. Right away, everything's fucked. Yeah. So, yeah, they talked about how the defense had questioning about leads that weren't pursued.

And they were asking the cop about some of them. One was a woman who told officials that she had a vision that something bad was going to happen. And the guy said, we don't pursue leads like that. How do you clear that lead? That's when I said, no, not all of them are cleared. How do you clear the bad, something bad vision lady? Also, it already happened so yeah yeah we've confirmed it it's we confirmed it um to now at this point the mo had to get a

restraining order against a spectator oh saying a man followed him and his attorneys and made threatening remarks about the defense lawyers. Oh. Yes. Some guy here, this is fucking crazy. What's his name? Kraft. John Franklin Kraft. He's 55. He could not be reached for comment here. They said that Kraft

was served a temporary restraining order in Minot where he was living out of a van. In a van down by Minot is where he's living. And he's a problem he's out here running his mouth let him do their job john yeah well he sat in on the trial on june 27th and lingered outside the courthouse and uh where spectators often gathered but they said the craft camped out in the parking lot of the Minot Motel where the lawyers were staying. That's where he put his van.

One vehicle was defaced and vandalized overnight. And they said that Kraft made smart aleck and pointed comments at the defense lawyers. So they were worried the jury would overhear them. July 9, 2007, case goes to jury. Two female alternates are dismissed, leaving a jury of seven women, five men. Okay, they've picked their final jury there. July 11th comes around, 2007, still no verdict two days later. Wow.

Yep, they close the courtroom to have a session with jurors, just the judge and the attorneys, obviously. And Gibbs and the attorneys for both sides, everybody. The judge asks jurors, are the judge and the attorneys, obviously, and Gibbs and the attorneys for both sides, everybody. The judge asked jurors, are you deadlocked? And in a public session afterwards, they said that they were making progress. So they're not deadlocked. July 12th, the jurors send the judge a handwritten note at noon telling him that they are at an impasse.

Really? Yep. A jury statement signed by Walter Scraney Jr., the foreman, said that the jurors have unanimously concluded they could not reach a decision. So that's the one thing they could unanimously decide was that they can't decide. That it's over. They couldn't decide. Yeah. That they could decide.

We unanimously agree we can't do this. And yeah. So you would imagine usually there's one or two holdouts in a case like this. You know what I mean? Not this one. This is the letter. It said, this is based on our completion of your instructions and our deeply held judgments, which are evenly divided. It was 6-6.

Wow. 6-6. They dismissed the jury. Officially a mistrial. New jury? New trial? The state's attorney said a mistrial. New jury. New trial. The state's attorney said a six six is unusual. This is not how it works. Usually. Yeah. Abnormal. Ten to usually ten to in one way or the other.

It's not abnormal. Exactly. North Dakota abnormal. So they said generally you're only going to have one or two people that are stubborn and that are going to go against the majority. Right. This is six six. And they said it's going to be to have one or two people that are stubborn and that are going to go against the majority. Right. This is 6-6. And they said it's going to be difficult now to find an impartial jury if they decide to retry him because everybody knows about this shit. They said I guess they're going to have to have it someplace in North Dakota. An impartial jury is not very likely, though.

Right. They said, yeah. They said usually they want to talk to the jurors because they said we talked to the jurors, find out what was holding them up to get a feel of how the evidence played before a jury. So, you know, for the next trial. And they said they we certainly would love to know the reasons why this is happening. Her one of Mindy's friends said, quote, it's a little bit of a shock. Her best friend on the track team. Yeah. Her family's pissed. Chuck, her best friend on the track team. Yeah. Her family's pissed.

Her dad, Larry, said, quote, I'm a Christian man. Yeah. Which when someone starts out like that, they mean I'm about to, I want to tell someone to fuck their mother and punch them in the throat. Yeah. I'm a Christian man. I'm a Christian man. I don't like to get angry is how he starts it. But this angers me. The DNA didn't seem to get angry is how he starts it but this angers me the DNA didn't seem

to mean anything to the jurors it seemed pretty simple to me but apparently a good share of the jurors didn't think it was simple yeah she said that they she he believed the jurors overlooked the DNA evidence implicating Gibbs and he says he obviously hopes that Gibbs would be on trial again he said we were hoping it would be over, but who knows how long it will be now. We had just hoped this would be closed. Yeah, of course you would. You want to get past this, for Christ's sake. He said, everybody has their own beliefs, but if there's DNA, there's DNA.

I don't know what else they need. Yeah. They said they hope this guy, her friend said she hopes that Gibbs will be convicted in the new trial. She said he's behind bars no matter what. He has rape charges against him. He has all those other charges against him. I don't know how you can find him innocent. Because that doesn't, you can't find him guilty of murder because he's got other charges because he's a piece of shit.

It just doesn't make him a murderer. That's the problem. And especially he hasn't even been convicted of those yet. So you can't. So Gibbs' brother-in-law, though, Steve Etienne, says that Gibbs

was wrongfully accused and that Gibbs was devastated he wasn't acquitted. He said Gibbs was the target of a rush to judgment and authorities

who investigated Mindy's killing, quote, did less than a great job to get to the bottom of this. You don't have to say that. That you can say. He said, quote, did less than a great job to get the bottom of this. Get to the bottom of this. You're allowed to say that. That you can say.

He said, quote, there's a killer out there and pinning it on my brother-in-law. I think it's just wrong. Okay. For the jury to come back with this verdict, there is obvious doubt. It really puts us in limbo because we don't have any closure. When you're being accused of something like that and your life is on the line, the jury did the best they could to either come up with a conviction or come with a not guilty, and they couldn't come up with it. The bummer with saying shit like that after that is that he's justified.

But if it goes the other way next time, you look like an asshole. Well, you're still arguing against DNA evidence, which is kind of weird. That's kind of weird. Yeah. against dna evidence yeah that's kind of weird that's kind of weird yeah gibbs's sister breeze said quote that uh they need to reopen the investigation and find out who really did it and then her husband said they need to get back on the horse and ride again which is a very north dakota thing to say he fell down once get back on that horse yep so um that is fucking amazing now people in new salem are all freaked out one guy who runs the counter at the farm supply store said we kind of thought

this was going to happen it was taking too long old farm farm supply courtroom expert and counter man at the farm supply store slash uh He said that this guy, clack, Rick clack. He said he saw the Morgan Stearns come into the store on occasion and employees and customers had discussed the case in passing. They felt the jury must have haven't been having a hard time getting to a unanimous opinion.

Well, no shit. Yeah, clearly Jesus Christ, a relative of Morgan Stern here. Marie Hanson said some parts of the trial have mystified her. What fucking part is that? Yeah.

She said the defense attorney's assertion that Morgan Stern could have picked up DNA, Gibbs' DNA, from using the same doorknob to get in the apartment building. She said, you know, there were a lot of things that were brought up that make you wonder. But I mean, DNA on a doorknob? Come on. Not that much anyway. It's there, but yeah, I get what you're saying. Under the fingernails. Yeah. Scraping a doorknob, come on. Not that much anyway. It's there, but yeah, I get what you're saying. Yeah, under the fingernails, scraping the doorknob. It's not like a vat of DNA that she reached her hand into.

She dipped it in and she went bobbing for apples in a DNA barrel. Of just his DNA. Just his DNA. It took him a while to make that much, I'll tell you what. It's a lot. It's a lot. But she also said that she felt Gibbs was guilty because of the DNA, but she said many questions were raised by the trial that gave her room for doubt even. This is her friend, Mindy's friend. She said, I'd have hated to be on that jury.

I don't know one way or the other. Okay. Really? Wow. That is fucking interesting. Yeah. Ashley Coons' mother, Sandy, said, quote, she runs the family hair care on Main Avenue. She said, I just think God has a plan, and we're just not going to second guess it.

Is that right? What's the fucking plan here? You don't second guess anything i think yeah what i just let everything so that's anything then it's god's will that's what we gotta do jesus christ um they one of her friends said that she's hoping for justice in the case against gibbs she said quote if the good lord says he's innocent he should be proven innocent if he's guilty he should be proven guilty i would wish him luck but I don't know if he deserves it. Are these the nicest people?

We just give everybody the benefit. He said he's fine. He said he's not a murderer or anything, so let's hire him. It's God's will. It's God's will. The DNA, I mean, DNA could be like these people just give everyone benefit of the doubt. I want to move here. You can get away with anything.

These are people who you'd be like, the mafia doesn't and they'd be like i didn't know that thanks for telling me they tell everybody i heard the mafia doesn't exist like they're just real gullible yeah wow um so the judge reaffirms his decision to postpone the trial of gibbs involving the assault of the jail inmates okay the rape of the jail inmates until after his murder trial. October 2007, second trial. Same judge and lawyers, by the way. Is that right? I mean, it's a redo of all redos here. Yeah.

They said during Gibbs's counsel's cross-examination of Dale Makesner, an agent for the Bureau of Criminal Investigation of North Dakota, Gibbs's counsel asked him about statements made by Gibbs during the videotaped interview. He said, quote, and Gibbs wasn't concerned about your accusations that you were making, was he? And the answer was he wasn't concerned at all. So, yeah, he wasn't concerned at all was the answer there. Fascinating. And they said, in fact, he could. He told you more than once, you and the other agents, you can talk until you're blue in the face.

He said, he said more than once, you can talk until you're blue in the face, and it's not going to change my statement that I wasn't there and didn't have anything to do with this murder. Isn't that right? And the agent says, yes, and that's what I'd expect from a street smart person.

Someone has been arrested a whole bunch. He continues denying it. That's wild. Yeah. And the lawyer says, well, that wasn't part of the question, which is fucking hilarious. So two days into the trial, Gibbs just out of nowhere says, I want new attorneys. Oh, for God's sake. Judge, can I get new attorneys?

And the courtroom said, fuck no, you cannot. We're in this trial. They represented you. You got to see their work for a whole trial, and then you rehired them. Two days into the trial, now you can't fire them. Fuck off. So again, DNA, they're talking about no usable fingerprints.

The defense is trying to make a big deal out of that. They said there were seven usable fingerprints found in her apartment. The prints did not match Mindy Gibbs or her ex-boyfriend or her brother. But, I mean, she's a college kid. There's probably people coming in and out all the time hanging out, you know, a couple of friends over. That's just what happens here. I mean, when you're young, you just have friends over if you have your own place.

Who doesn't, you know? So, yeah. So they said, we process a lot of evidence for fingerprints. young you just have friends over if you have your own place who doesn't you know it was just so yeah so they said we get we process a lot of evidence for fingerprints sometimes you get lucky lucky and find some sometimes you don't find any they also talked about a piece of carpet taken from gibbs's apartment which had seen footprints they saw footprints on it when they sprayed the surface with luminol yeah they said they sprayed the carpet with luminol but the entire carpet glowed and he didn't see any footprints. They said they saw it at first but then they didn't after that.

So they got another guy who testified to doing mitochondrial DNA testing on a piece of hair found in her hand. They explained that it's passed down from a person's mother thus siblings with the same mother have the same mitochondrial DNA. The hair

was tested for that but did not contain nuclear DNA, which is less plentiful in a cell and unique to each person. So that nails it to a person rather than a whole, just a bloodline. He said the test excluded Gibbs and Mindy as the source of the hair,

and they said there's no database for mitochondrial DNA at the time, so they said it does not determine the gender either of the hair. And they said there's no database for mitochondrial DNA at the time, so they said it does not determine the gender either of the sample. So they don't know. So yeah, they bring them in. There's so much DNA stuff they're trying to find. They're trying to get Dr. Michael, is it

Baden or Baden? Baden. That guy who had the show and all that shit. That's the guy they tried to hire. This guy agreed to reduce his standard retainer to $6,000, which is the same retainer he charges to indigent defendants in other states. Dr. Michael Varden? Yeah. He'll do that. So that's the state will pay for that.

Yeah. That's great. Because if the state has an expert, the defense has to have an expert. So they said once his potential involvement was secured, they contacted the commission to get the funding. The funding was only secured for half of his reduced retainer, and he wouldn't lower it. So his services were lost, and he was not able to get the services of a forensic pathologist as a defense witness to counteract the state's forensic pathologist. So, yeah, apparently they off they sent it indicated several areas that the state's forensic pathologist did not address. They said, doctor, they tried to say, Dr.

Bodden would have said this. This was his report. They proposed off the testimony also refuted the state's evidence as to scratches on Gibbs' hand, wrist, as well as defensive wounds found upon the deceased and the anticipated wounds that would have been left on the perpetrator. The defense arranged to have another guy, Birch Henry, Ph.D., and Thomas Wall, Ph.D., forensic DNA analysis experts testify in defense of Gibbs. They're developing a DNA analysis lab at North Dakota State University. Their anticipated testimony would have put into context the one billionth of a gram of weight of DNA that was found under the fingernails. They said that would be a small amount of DNA.

They said the deceased's use of bleach in cleaning the restaurant where she was employed as well as her hygiene would have provided testimony with regard to discrepancy in the ratio and quantity of DNA. It's all very technical shit here. So that's how that goes. Now they talk about transfer DNA. Guy talks

about secondary transfer DNA, which is a thing that comes up a lot. DNA, they talk about any fluid is capable of being a source of DNA, very large quantities of DNA, obviously, in your blood, tears, mouth. They said the greater amount of DNA, the greater possibility of transfer from one to the other. Based on experimentation in his lab, they said studies have shown that basically DNA transfer is a very quick process typically. We use 30 seconds just as a convenient way of doing it. The tests found about a nanogram of DNA in a 30 second interaction.

He concluded that based upon transfer from various sources, it's critical that the source of DNA, the amount of DNA that gets on fingers, hands or whatever, becomes very significant in this transfer process. So you need to have a whole bunch to transfer any. Right. They said DNA is transferred to a person's hands. If you don't wash your hands, it can be transferred to another individual or surface. And, yeah, so he explains that the touchery transfer is the transfer of DNA from one person coming in contact with their DNA

and transferring it to clothing and other objects. He said that lower quantities of DNA are more easily transferred than higher quantities of DNA, obviously. It's easier to get a little on than a lot. And a lab would have a better understanding of the mechanism of transfer if they know the nature of cellular material. They said picking up an object, i.e. a plastic laundry basket, because that was his claim. This guy went on to say that 30.8 nanogram transfer of DNA from Gibbs to Morgenstern's fingernails would be more than a kind of coincidental casual contact. You can't get that from a doorknob. He said that's a primary transfer. That amount is a primary transfer, not a laundry basket transfer or a doorknob transfer.

That's skin cells. He did concede that cases have existed where the victim was not the major contributor of the DNA found under the victim's fingernails or the perpetrator, wasn't he? He said there and thus there is a potential way for secondary transfer of DNA to happen. So they said that also. so that was his opinion. It's all opinion. They asked his wife, when you saw him, did he look frazzled?

Like he just got done killing somebody? The defense attorney asked. She said, no, that's good. That's scary. It's helpful. Yeah.

It just looked fine. Yeah. That's even more terrifying. They also found through his computer that MSN Messenger had been started on the computer at 1.07 p.m. and activity on the computer continued throughout the afternoon. But on cross examination, they said it was possible

that all of that activity between 1.07 and 1.53 could have been going on without a person sitting at the computer. Really? Yeah, just it was open and people were, you know, shit was going on. That activity included automatic updates by computer programs and people trying to chat with Gibbs who were ignored. So he didn't do anything back. Oh, he wasn't even there.

So he could have just been open. MSN Messenger, he just might not have a screensaver on or whatever. MSN Messenger may be able to set up, may be set, can be set to automatically ignore other users and it can be set to automatically sign a person in without entering a password when the computer's turned on. The defense tried to call in a guy who said there was images from videos of him when he was at the bank from September 15th where he doesn't have scratches on him. mean he's looking at surveillance video through that rather than that's ridiculous um so second trial these are the changes the prosecution makes

they called a forensic scientist from connecticut to the stand he told jurors about peer-reviewed studies done in his lab that showed the transfer stuff we told you about that they did not call the inmate the guy who said he heard him say, I'd fucking do it again, because they think that might have hurt them, because people didn't believe him. Because he just said, I just found Jesus all of a sudden after 20 convictions of shit, and now I immediately decided to be an honest person.

And these are God-fearing people. They don't want to hear that shit. Yeah, yeah. They did not show a videotaped interview of Gibbs with law enforcement. The interrogation the day of his arrest, the videotape showed him repeatedly denying any involvement in the murder. Jurors in the trial in Bismarck asked to see the tape after an hour of deliberations. But the judge denied the request because it had not been entered into evidence. Between the two trials, the state crime lab director, Hope Ol Olson also testified that residue on filter paper

holding scrapings from under Morgan Stern's left fingernails to see if it was blood, the reddish brown substance tested presumptively positive for human blood. Olson said the test can also return positive tests for ferret, mink, or monkey blood.

So if you're looking for ferret blood, Yeah, she could have had it under her nail. It could have been monkey blood. Listen, for all we know, the blood that they also found, they found DNA and blood, the blood could, this could all be a monkey that did this or a ferret. We don't know. You know how rare mink coats are?

That could happen. Have you ever heard of a monkey when they go buck wild? They rip you the fuck apart. They'll tear your whole fucking face off. They'll break a knife off in your neck i guess i don't know so uh that's that that's the claim though that they're saying too well it could have been a ferret she wasn't handling ferrets recently crazy ferret or a crazy ferret uh a dna expert said the transfer stuff like we said the prosecutor then in his summation at the end said the defendant had changing stories as to where he got the scratches, who was there when he got the scratches, which we heard. He had a changing story as to when he may have been in the apartment, whether it was one day prior or three or seven days prior.

Right. Because he had different stories. Because he had different stories. They said he has a complete lack of explanation for why his blood was on her shirt, basically, mixed in the DNA. And he said, is it a coincidence that the DNA and the blood are in the same spot at the same time? And there's no explanation as to whose blood it is other than his? Because Mindy did not have blood on her arms. Right. So they said also the defendant had changing stories to all of that stuff.

So November 13th, 2007, case goes to jury. Okay. It is basically DNA versus whatever. Versus, no, I didn't. They deliberate for 27 hours. Wow. These people are just, they will. Give them all the credit, James.

They're doing it right. They're taking their time. I mean, if you're up for something, boy, you want to have a North Dakota jury. They will weigh every piece. Holy shit. Will they really go over it with a fine-tooth comb? 27 hours. They come back with a verdict this time, though.

Is that right? They have all agreed on one particular unanimous verdict, and they find him. find tooth comb 27 hours they come back with a verdict this time though is that right they have all agreed on one particular unanimous verdict and they find him guilty of murder yeah okay now sentencing comes around and no matter what he says now he's pretty fucked because he's already been found guilty guilty and the judge says you sir, sir, may fuck off. Life in prison without parole. No parole. Life without. Shit.

That's a rough one. Yes. The parents, Larry and Eunice, said their, quote, we're just glad it's over. It's hard either way. It's really difficult. Then, this is how nice Eunice is, okay? These people, I swear to Christ, the sweetest fucking people in Morgenstern family.

We adopt fucking orphans from Columbia and raise them. And their siblings. And their siblings. Well, she had a sister. Well, you got to bring her over. These are such sweet people. She said this, quote, God damn it. She said she felt sympathy for the gibbs's family she said they're

losing a kid too it's hard either way because there are two losses two lives lives lost our heart goes out to his family that is most people are like fuck them and fuck where he came from and fuck everything i want to hear shit about that same blood jesus yeah eunice was in the courtroom every day and she said it wasn't easy. That's for sure. The Lord helps us. He's our strength. So he Larry said his first order of business was to call Rebecca, who couldn't be there today because she said she was too nervous to do it.

He said she couldn't come. She couldn't handle it. I'm going to call her and tell her how much I love her. So, yep. She couldn't handle it. I'm going to call her and tell her how much I love her. So, yep, they said that the verdict was welcome, but it didn't necessarily make anything better. That's the thing.

And that's the thing that people don't get. If you have a relative that's been murdered like I did, it doesn't help. That woman who killed my great-grandmother is still in prison now. It was 33 years ago it happened or something, 34 years ago, And she's still in prison, and it doesn't help any. I'm not like, oh, well, good for her. That doesn't matter to me, honestly, either way. So she said, quote, she's not here. It doesn't bring her back.

There'll never be another Mindy. So now he's got other charges against him. This isn't it for him. Right, the rapes. The rapes. Six rapes he's got going on now in different places. And one of them is the prison. One is the other one.

Any rape is horrible, obviously. But to fucking have people in cages and have you be responsible for their well-being and to do that is disgusting. They can't even run away. Right. There's nowhere they can go. They literally are not allowed to run away from you that's insanity so he will end up pleading guilty in all the rape and sexual assault cases he's fucked anyway and just guilty he's got it they have they have him dead to rights there too they have tons of witnesses in jail all the girls are you know all the women are backing each other

stories up dna from from fargo, from a rape kit that was performed. It's bad. So the woman, when he goes for sentencing, the woman who he raped in Fargo looked at him and did her victim thing, the impact statement. She said she hopes he remembers the sound of her screaming for help as he sits in prison for the rest of his life. She was only 25 at this time, so she was like 20 when this happened. Jesus. Yeah. She described the horror of waking up face down on a bed in June of 2004 to find Gibbs on top of her, arm around her neck, raping her.

He's got a style. Let's just say that because that's what he did to the so he did to the prisoners yeah when they slept which is disgusting he's like fucking richard ramirez this guy he's like the night stalker puts him on their stomach that's i guess she was sleeping on her stomach and that's how he attacked her so yeah um she said the pain was unbearable i tried to scream but couldn't because his arm was in my mouth. Um, she says, I bit, I kicked,

I elbowed and I struggled. He's twice my size, but I fought anyway. She said that Gibbs brought her to the apartment lobby and told her he had a taxi for her. But when she did not see one, she panicked. She said at that moment,

I realized that he was taking me somewhere else. And if I didn't escape, I was going to die. He said, I'll get you a taxi. Come on downstairs. He was taking me somewhere else. And if I didn't escape, I was going to die. He said, I'll get you a taxi. Come on downstairs. He was taking her somewhere. She said that she then broke free and fled with her clothes,

partially torn off, barefoot, crying her eyes out, screaming, ran away. Somebody help me. Somebody help me. This is the worst nightmare horror situation.

Not only is he break in and rape you while you're sleeping he then is going to take you somewhere afterwards oh my god what a fucking nightmare where where the taxi where did where is he going to send her in a taxi yeah i'm going to send you away somewhere okay but then unless he had a choice unless it was at his place and he was taking her. I don't know. That's crazy. So he didn't appear to react or even look at her. She talked. Prosecutors said that the woman's violent experiences and his six felony convictions for sexually assaulting five female inmates while working at the jail warranted receiving a prison sentence consecutive to the murder sentence. Oh.

Gibbs' defense attorney disagreed. He said that Gibbs took the responsibility for his actions by pleading guilty and that a consecutive sentence would be like trying to punish Gibbs after he dies in prison. Okay. Whatever. Why not? He said, quote, that's for powers beyond us. Oh, is it?

Yeah. He's a God-fearing guy, too. It's about, yeah, we'll leave that to God there. The district judge agreed with prosecutors and rebuked Gibbs for destroying several lives. He said, you have earned consecutive sentences. Wow. And he sentenced him to, you, sir, may keep fucking off, 12 years in prison for the rape and 15, that'll run concurrent with 15 years for the inmate sexual assault. So hard 15 afterlife without.

All right. Consecutive to the murder charge. So that is not, so even if he was to get the murder wiped away, he still is in jail for 15. To get the murder wiped away. He still is in jail for 15. So he appeals based very quickly. Based on the fact that he wasn't allowed to spend more money on experts. Denied. Fuck off.

Keep going. Keep going. So poor Mindy is buried at the New Salem. The Graceland Cemetery in New Salem. Morton County, North Dakota. And that guy is still in prison. And here's the thing. Are we positive he did it?

I think so. Close, right? Yeah. I mean, he's good for it. That's for sure. That's the thing. He's sure. Everything lends to it.

Yeah. Yes. But if you're at a trial and you don't know about all that shit, all you have is murder he's mo he worked here and here and they think he killed him here's 30.30 nanograms of dna and that's what i like is he guilty uh i mean uh yeah maybe yeah i the dna part he said that he did that he said he's never been around her. And that is a primary amount of DNA.

And then he said he was around her. And then he switched what days he was around her. Right. And you can't do that after being presented with the evidence. So that's the only reason he did it is because they told him he had his DNA. Problem is the DNA. There's two other male DNAs on the knives. It's a lot of DNAs on the knives.

There's a lot of DNAs. But he also wore gloves, so he wouldn't have his DNA on the knives. That's the other thing. There's rubber gloves. And the point is, maybe he realized this time, if this woman's fighting and you can't make it happen, let's make sure nobody tells on me.

If the situation dies, then nobody can talk. So there you go, everybody. If the situation dies, then nobody can talk. Yeah. So there you go, everybody. That is Valley City, North Dakota. Oh, my. An abnormal-ass place in an abnormal-ass case. That is some wild shit. I don't know.

Let's hear your opinions. Hit us up there. We are obviously at Small Town Murder on Instagram, Facebook groups there, Small Town Pod on there. Let us know how you feel, because I have a feeling there will be a lot of discussion about this one. Yeah. So definitely kick that around. Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com right now.

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