Small Town Murder - #503 - My Dead Mother Told Me To - Ontario, Oregon

Episode Date: June 27, 2024

This week, in Ontario, Oregon, a man with a dark past, which included his father killing his mother, seems to be adjusting to the world, then appears to go permanently off the rails. He can't stop getting arrested, or getting married, or having the voice of his dead mother telling him to do things. After kidnapping his wife, and shooting at the police, he gets a new start. Only this start would end in an even darker place, with multiple people dead, in a horrible way!Along the way, we find out that you have to be a felon to stand the smell of an onion processing plant, that super heroes & super villains have similar origin stories, and that if you can't even decide if you're legally insane, it's not very easy for anyone else to figure it out, either!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. She was a romance mystery writer. They gloomed on the fact that she writes stories like this. There are murders in all of the books. From Wondery, the makers of Ghost Story and Feta, this is a story about a murder that rocked my little community. Binge all episodes of Happily Never After ad free right now on Wondery Plus. This week in Ontario, Oregon, a man with a very strange background starts to do more and more violent things until one day the whole thing comes crashing down

in a murderous romp that leaves people saying he must be crazy. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today.

We've been on a wild run lately, if you've been listening, obviously, and this is going to be no change because this is one of those cool narrative stories too where you get to actually kind of be a part of the thing as it happens. It's a wild story, can't wait to tell it. We will do that for you in just a minute, but before we get to that, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com.

What's there? Merch is there, number one. Also, tickets to live shows. Come to a live show. If you've never been to a live show and you're wondering about it, you're on the fence, let me tell you, it's a comedy show. It's not a lecture about a murder. We have fun, we have pictures that are funny, you're in with the stuff and we make jokes

and the whole thing. It's a comedy show. It's a two hour comedy show. It's going to be a blast. Definitely get your tickets for Minneapolis September the 20th. That's our next show. It's going to be our biggest show ever if you sell this out guys. So So let's do it and then we're gonna be at the Pabst in Milwaukee the next night, but that's just about sold out. There's a few tickets left, get in there if you want them. Also Oklahoma City, Kansas City, we added more tickets there so now they're available. And also Austin, Boston, New York.

It's gonna be great. There you go, do that, shutupandgivemurder.com. You also definitely want Patreon. Patreon.com slash crimeins sports is where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody, $5 a month or above, you're going to get a whole big giant back catalog full of stuff, hundreds of episodes immediately. New ones every other week, one crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get it all, baby.

So this week what we have for crime in sports, which you'll have access to, we're gonna talk about nothing that has to do with sports. It is just industrial disasters. Yes, it's a steel factory just melts down and everyone is instantly incinerated, stuff like that. It's gonna be wild. Then for small town murder, we're gonna talk about the cannibal cop.

If you remember him from a while back, the New York City cop who said he wanted to eat women. And it was a weird thing of can you fire somebody for saying they want to eat women? Is that artistic? Is it something to worry about? Should he be put in jail? Who knows?

We'll talk all about it. That's Patreon, P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com slash Crime in Sports. So that said, disclaimer time. Oh, before we do that, listen to your stupid opinions, by the way. Give it a shot, yeah. Check it out. Also, crime in sports, too,

but we figure you knew about that already, but check out your stupid opinions. You will not be sorry. It's hilarious. Disclaimer, this is a comedy show. It is, yeah. We're comedians. We're gonna make jokes.

That's what's gonna happen here. At the same time, people are gonna die. Now, the thing is, not to mix those things together while they're happening. There's nothing funny about someone getting their head chopped off. We don't go, that's hilarious. The blood was squirt, there's nothing funny about that.

But the funny thing is, a guy going, I think I can cut someone's head off then get away with it. No you can't. That's hilarious. I think I can hire a hit man for $400 and he'll do a great job. No, that's not a good idea. That's hilarious. I think I can hire a hitman for $400 and he'll do a great job. No, that's not a good idea. That's hilarious. So things of that nature and small

towns that we roast because we're all from a small town, what are we doing here? All that stuff. So that said, I think it's a good time. What we don't do though, what we never do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why is that, James? Because we're assholes. But! But we're not scumbags. That's how that goes. Nope, that's the deal. That's how it works. So if that sounds good to you,

you're gonna hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never go together ever, you might not like it, but you might. So, you know, no bitching afterwards either way. That said, I think it's time. I think it's time to do this. Let's take a deep breath, everybody, and let's all shout.

Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's go. We're moving, we're going to Oregon here this week. We are in Ontario, Oregon. Ontario, of course worse like the Canadian

Ontario as we are well they're both I think named after Canada though. I know this one is specifically This is very far eastern, Oregon. It's on the Idaho border. Oh, so this isn't like, you know, Portland you think of like, you know Not that not that Oregon fascinating group of folks think of like you know not that not that Oregon. Fascinating group of folks. Think of think less lesbian coffee shop more militia. We're in different areas here. So this is people that want to move the border. This is wild. Yes they want to be Idaho. Please make me yeah they want to be a part of Idaho which if everyone else in the country is going what the hell anybody want to be a part of Idaho. Exactly that's the point. That's what, what the hell, anybody want to be a part of Idaho? Exactly. That's the point. That's what we're laughing at.

Yeah. So see when I said we're going to roast shit? That's what I'm talking about. That's what it is. Yeah. Don't get pissy. This is fun. Calm down. So this is 50 minutes to Boise. So it's right there. Oh, it's real close. Yeah.

Less than an hour to Boise, five hours and 45 minutes to Portland. So nowhere near Portland. And it's about six hours and 15 minutes to Colton, Oregon, our last Oregon episode, which was 454, and it was called As Crazy Is, As Crazy Does. And the Oregon people always, there's always like serious crazy involved with these people. I don't mean like, oh, they did some crazy shit.

I mean, that guy is fucked up in the head, that stuff. This is in Mallor County, which is spelled Malheur so hmm. I was real worried about that pronunciation. I looked it up, and it's just Malor Yeah, if it was Mal If it was Mal er it would have been Mal-U-R-E-R, or some shit, it wouldn't have been, and I would have got bitched at for how I pronounced it. So the motto here is Where Oregon Begins.

Yeah, it is, yeah. Because it's right on the border, so yeah. History. That's it. It was founded in June of 1883, so anniversary here, by a guy named Bill Morfit, Mary Richardson, Daniel Smith, and James Virtue. They all showed up, and they were developers. They were like, we can make, yeah, they were.

They weren't even like, oh, I wanna put up a house and raise my kids. They were like, hmm, we can make money here. Yeah, so then in March 1984, a guy named Richard Welch, so Dick Welch, started a post office for this area and they named it after Ontario, Canada. Then two months later, another guy applied for a post office, a guy named James Morton. He applied for a post office in the same area and wanted to call it Morton because his name is Morton.

So he's like, yeah. Right. And that was about a mile away. Yeah, he's like, no, after me. So unfortunately though, for them, there's a gold miner here, James Virtue was a gold miner and a lumberman, and he apparently

just bought a shitload more land and said, there. Now, who's post office counts for more? How now, brown cow office counts for more? Oh, now, brown cow, I found some nuggets. Got that shit. So, yeah, everybody knew the railroad was coming, so this became like people wanted to move here.

By the time World War II came around, this became a place for displaced Japanese people to go. Oh. Japanese Americans would settle here because people didn't want them on the west coast. You know what I mean? On the coast. So they were like, well, you can move them inland is what they said here. And the mayor, Elmo Smith, said, yep, Elmo, Elmo Smith, the mayor, he said, he said, no, he did. I would love to hear Elmo say this by the way

This is what I want to hear in an Elmo's what Elmo says If the Japs both alien and nationals are a menace to Pacific Coast and safety unless they're moved inland It appears downright cowardly to take any other stand than to put them out the call send them along Bring bring me your Japs Okay That there was about a hundred and thirty four Japanese people or about a hundred and thirty four people total in the city and then They got to recruit workers during the war for farms and shit and I got up to a thousand people so

Reviews of this town. Let's find out what other people think because we've never been here. We didn't even know how to pronounce the county. Five stars. Yeah, we didn't know anything about that. Five stars. I have grown up in Ontario my entire life. Alright, I personally enjoy smaller rural towns rather than larger cities. Well, you're in the right place then I think.

So Ontario has been a comfortable place to live. It's a quieter place that feels like home. Whenever I find myself wanting a change of scenery, Boise, Idaho is a relatively short drive away or there are plenty of areas within an hour or two for camping, hiking, fishing, etc. People generally keep to themselves but are willing to be respectful and provide help to one another. They're willing to. Like those other places where they're completely unwilling.

If you really twist their arm they'll be respectful but otherwise they're willing. I'm not saying they want it but willing if possible. Three stars. If I were to change some things, I would plant more trees, that's, you don't hear that a lot in Oregon. Yeah. Or encourage homeowners and business owners to take more pride in what their yards look like. There you go, Jimmy.

When we first got together today, Jimmy, I walk in and Jimmy is watching yard clean up videos. So when I said that, his eyes just perked up like, oh yeah, you should clean your yard up. Can you tell I'm on the HOA board? Jesus Christ. There is quite a bit of trash and litter. Oh, that wouldn't go well at the next meeting, would it, Jimmy?

No, sir, I will send you one. You'd be voting thumbs down on that, wouldn't you? Don't check your mailbox, friend. Oh boy. Around town, and most people don't have nice things to say about the town. I found a stranger in my backyard at 1 a.m. What? Yeah, that's a totally different problem.

Fuck the weeds. Why is he back there? Why is that not your lead? Hey, watch out for people in your yards. Random strangers in your backyard. I like how they didn't say, I found a person, I found a stranger, which makes it sound like they're seven years old, which is hilarious. I found somebody about to break into my house.

That's what you found. That's what that's called. I found an attempted burglar in my backyard. And I always make sure to lock my doors, windows, and vehicles. Sounds great sounds wonderful Wow litter and weeds and Strangers wandering in your yard strangers three stars not the best but also not the worst Right, that's three stars actually accurate rating. Good job, sir

ma'am two stars here I've lived in Ontario Oregon for all of my life and I've seen the crime rated go up, the crime rated. Which, this sounds like whatever, but when we get to the crime rate in this town, it is shocking, it's shocking what's going on over here. The prison has made it worse for people to live here. No shit, yeah.

That'll do it, yeah. That'll do it, because that makes the main source of jobs, kind of mediocre paying jobs, where literally you spend a third of your life in prison. That's a terrible, it's not good. And a lot of people, a lot of people that are in prison, their families will move closer to the prison so they can visit you.

And oftentimes, I don't wanna be a... Well, a lot of times, you come from trash families when you're... There it is. A lot of times, criminals have criminal families. When they go there, they're like, well, three of our sons are in the same prison, so we should probably move closer.

We should probably be close. This visiting day is difficult for us. It really is. They go on to say they have closed the local swimming pool to update it and haven't stated it... haven't stated it it's oh it's been I guess they're trying to say haven't stated it's been four years now so they just they closed your pool that's what that is they quit fixing yeah it's it does not take four years to update a swimming pool ever no so maybe one tops

to build it from the from scratch from scratch and that's in the Arizona ground that you have to like blast out this. This is just dirt you can shovel up there. People in this town, 11,465 is the population. Way more females than males actually. It's 52.5%. So that's way out of whack of the normal. Median age is a little lower than normal. It's about 34 here.

Otherwise, a lot of people are single with children. That's a big thing, single with children. Race of this town, it is 52.7% white, .4% black, 2% Asian, and 42.8% Hispanic. It's tons of farming in the area. And that's, yeah, people come to here to farm. And then religion in this town, 58% religious, which is way more than normal.

And the most here are, it's gonna be- Mormon. No! Oh! Catholic! Is that right? Yeah, the fucking Spanish, AKA, yeah, that's Catholic. Oh, yeah, yeah, that'll do it, yeah.

So Catholic is 25.7%. I was shocked too, on the Idaho border, you expect second place as Mormons. Don't worry. Yeah, there you go. But the Spanish community, really, the Mormons aimed at that. Oh, they're trying to get them. Yeah, they're trying to get them. Their families are big and they'd love that.

That's exactly what they're like. They're like, these people fuck, okay? Yes. They get married and they fuck. Let's get them. Children, cousins, there's lots, let's get them. Round them up and let's go. A lot of tithing. Ontario's unemployment rate's about the rest of the country,

it's about average. A median household income here, low though, $42,568 a year. It's about 70,000 in the rest of the country, so that's pretty low. Cost of living also low-ish. 100 is regular here, it's 80, so on the scale. The median home cost here, $278,400, which is hard on 42 grand for a household.

That's a tough one. So if we've convinced you, damn it, you're going to Ontario, Oregon. You're like, I've heard a lot about Oregon, but not about the Idaho border region. I'm going here. We have for you the Ontario, Oregon real estate report. So here we go. This first one is a trailer, let's say.

Found, here we go, this first one is a trailer, let's say. It's a two bedroom, one bath, 924 square foot trailer. But it's one of those trailers that's in a trailer park that these trailers aren't going anywhere. They have the corrugated steel on the bottom and they're painted the same color as the house and no one's moving. These are permanent settlements it's it's inside not as bad as it looks on the outside inside is actually not terrible manufactured home market it's gone it's fantastic they're really doing good

things for the inside oh no this is old somebody just put some like laminate flooring down yeah this isn't a new like they didn't bring it in and go to da this is someone were like let's cover up that yellow linoleum shall we put some laminate down but they've done their best in there not bad $39,000 for this though I mean if you need a place to live trailer I had that I don't know but I'm sure that's what it is you probably pay the lot fee or whatever the fuck it is but still if you need a place to stay just can't move it anywhere really next up one bedroom one bath it's a t-bowl for each and every beehole of just one beehull though

so the one 848 square feet it's a fucking dump It's a it looks like it looks like a shack where a family was murdered and then they let it go to rock basically It's crammed in between two very much nicer houses that are like on top of it on either side. It's terrible. Like the up house? It's kind of what it is, yeah.

And it's, but worse though, if the up house, if the old man was running a meth house there, then yes. He didn't take care of it anymore. The up meth house, yeah. He quit taking care of it when that old lady died. Fuck it. Tell everyone they can smoke crack in my living room. I don't even care anymore. I quit taking care of it when that old lady died. He's fucking no tell everyone they can smoke crack in my living room

The listing says unlock the potential of this 1930s fixer-upper so they use the word potential and fixer-upper in the first fucking sentence With an after repair value and then in parentheses ARV like that's an actual With an after repair value, and then in parentheses, ARV. That's an actual stack, the after repair value. That's it. ARV, that's an industry term. The fuck out of here with that? First time I've heard that acronym.

Never heard it before. They just have it like, you know, the ARV. Of $210,000, they're saying. Sure. This property offers an excellent opportunity, there you go, for those with a keen eye for investment. So there's a lot of hedging words there. It's a shithole.

It says sweat equity somewhere in there. Yeah, exactly. Someone was willing to put in some sweat equity. It's $89,000. Just reduced 10,000 too. You can double your money guys. Recent price cut. The ARV.

That is my favorite thing in the world. No real estate people. Here's a four bedroom three bath, 2,906 square foot, very nice little house. It's a little outdated inside and stuff, but it's nice. You'd look at it and go, why not? That's a nice house. What a place. Nice family house, clean, nice. $4 look at it and go what I that's a nice house. Nice place Nice family house clean nice

430 grand for that. Oh boy. So you're gonna pay for it If you don't want to have a piece of shit and almost Boise almost Boise. Yeah things to do in this town We got a couple things First up is America's global village festival Okay. All right This is it. Well well it celebrates Ontario's diversity through food, dance, music, education, and games. The tents representing various cultural communities offer cultural cuisine. It's like a mini Epcot Center it

sounds like. Yeah. Um and teach about their history and heritage. You go from thing to thing. All right what do you got? What are you people all about? America's global? I mean yeah. Come on. That's boring. Moving on to the Samoan tent. Fuck you. At the center of the village, Scottish clans participate in the Highland games. Okay. So that's what we're talking in the center village guys. Balls are going to be swinging free out of their kilts while a huck battle axes at each other. Awesome. Right. Oh man.

Also an event stage holds special performances of music and dance throughout the day. Okay, it's a very, I get it. It's educational and shit, but I'm trying to get drunk. I'm not trying to learn. I didn't hear booze or beer or. I didn't hear anything about Native American tacos. Those are so good.

Is there a 420 tent I can get at there? Tell me about your culture. It's Oregon, come on. That's what I mean. Tell me about your culture. Next up is the Mallor or Mallor County Fair. And that's got a fair. Let's see what's there.

There's a lot of bands there. Oh boy. At 8 p.m. on the Tuesday night, it kicks off. Everybody knows 8 p.m. Tuesday is the prime gig that you want That's your show. Yeah, that is the wrench monkeys will be there. Yeah, they'll be fixing a 72 Plymouth I think actually but they're still they'll be there though. You can catch us all at 8 a.m. At Jiffy Lube Yeah, see us here tonight either way. Well, they've been they've been posturing the fuck out of the Jiffy Lube There's a flyer in the hell out of that thing

Wednesday the the wrench monkeys are Lube. There's a flyer in the hell out of that thing. Wednesday, the Wrench Monkeys are playing again. Oh my god. There's also county team roping as well. So get your team together, rope up. On Thursday, all day long, Magic Man Brad is going to be walking around. Oh show him what it is Brad. Nothing I love more than a roving magician. That's my card. That's terrific Brad. He shows up hey go in a central location and we'll come to you if we're interested how about that. Yes Brad, eight of clubs. Imagine that like a comedian imagine as a comic imagine we had to go somewhere and just walk up to people and be like hey let me tell you something about my wife. You know what I mean? Like,

what the fuck are you talking about? When I went to the mall last week, Hey, one time I shit my pants. Want to hear about it? No, I'm going to tell you anyway. So anyway, I'm driving along. That's a terrible gig. There is a stick horse. All I saw was tail lights. So you know what I did. You know what's going there. Next up is Stick Horse Rodeo. Is that people on stick horses running around?

Oh, yes it is. Yeah. Very cool. That is disturbing. 2 to 3 PM, Magic Man Brad. Now he's going to be roaming all day, but at 2 to 3 PM he's going to hit the stage to really show you what he's all about,

then wander back into the crowd like most people do. At 3 PM is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard of in my life, a milk chugging contest. Oh, that's just vomit, isn't it? This is in the beginning of August as well, too. So it's hot out, let's all chug milk. I'm disgusted right now, that's horrifying. You can only chug so much, so I guess it's a speed thing of like a certain amount right because you can't

There's a contest to see who takes the longest to throw up afterwards like they follow you around for a while and who chugs the hardest The long how to projectile vomit. I think it should just be a pint and who can get it the fastest, right? That would I guess that's still disgusting though. No, I'm not doing that. Gonna be like Strawberry Quick maybe? At least. Somebody's gonna puke. Well at 8 p.m. they better clean it all up because the James Howard band is hitting the stage so watch out everybody.

Then we have the Magic Man Brad again Friday all day. Corbin Maxey's gonna be on stage, wonder what he plays. The Veggie Critter Decorating Contest. Okay, there's a watermelon flicking contest, apostrophe and apostrophe, flicking. I think that's like pumpkin chunking things. No, I think they're catapulting watermelons,

maybe, I'm not sure. Then Jimmy River and the Groovers will hit the stage. You'll be groovin' all night to that, baby. Next day, the Pretty Baby contest will be there. Don't like it. That's creepy. Oh, that's a cute, that's weird. Junior Livestock Auction, the Gem Cloggers

will hit the stage. Okay, yeah, clog music. And then finally, 9 p. 9pm on the last night, I assume they're the headliners, Earn and Burn is playing. Ernie and Bernie? We're going by Earn and Burn. E-A-R-N, like make money and fucking spend it, like that.

Oh, alright. Earn and Burn, Earn and Burn, but I bet their names are Ernie and Bernie. They just were like, it'd be cool if we were Earn and Burn, like, you know, make my paycheck and blow it on booze. Piss it away. Yeah. That said, crime rate in this town,

other than being accosted by fucking unwanted magic from Brad there, would be. Maybe that too was in that person's backyard. That's possible. We don't fucking know Brad out there with his cards. Get out of my yard. All in the dark and shit Please leave no, but I have a pull on pull this thing sticking out of my sleeve seriously

For the next ten minutes just keep pulling. Is this your watch in my pocket? That's just theft now, man You're just stealing. We're not at a show. This is in my yard, and it's late, and I'd like to go to bed now Crime are these your daughter's underwear in my pocket? Where'd you get those? Were you in her room? Oh my God. Crime rate in this town, property crime, two and a half times the average.

Oh my God. What is happening in this town, guys? Everybody, what the fuck, there's 11,000 people. Stop doing what the fuck there's a lot of people stop doing what you're doing get out of people's yards thousand people whose families are in the prison five and a half thousand of them are apparently thieves I don't know what's going on here and then violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the Mount Rushmore of crime only slightly above the national average but not too bad course assault the Mount Rushmore of crime only slightly above the national average, but not too bad.

Okay. In the range of normal, whereas property crime is out there. So that said, holy shit, let's talk about a crazy, crazy story of some murder here. Wow. Okay. We've set the table where we are. Let's talk about a man first with quite quite the background. It is, he's got an interesting story. He's got like either a superhero or super villain backstory.

One of the two. Yeah, like this, he's got like a Batman backstory. It's fucking, it's weird, okay? His name is Anthony, goes by Tony. Anthony! So Tony Wayne Montweiler, and that is M-O-N-T Wheeler. So Montweiler, he's born in November of 1967 here. I have to give a lot of credit to Rolling Stone did a great article on this whole thing. Really? Yeah, brought a lot of, had a lot of connecting

pieces that other places didn't have that was very helpful. So, gotta give them credit for that. So, he's born in November 1967. His mother's name is Linnie, L-I-N-N-I-E, Linnie Laverne Hendrix with an X. Oh! That sounds like a country singer, doesn't it? It's a rock star is who that is. Linnie Laverne, yeah, that sounds like, yeah. Linnie Hendrix, shit, I'm listening.

Linnie Laverne Hendrix, that is a rockin' like Rockin like she's open. Yeah. She opens for Johnny Cash back then. You know what I mean? Yeah, give a big hand for Lenny Laverne now would you? This is wow So she's 21 when she gives birth to Anthony His father at the time Wayne is his father's name and to give him the middle name of Wayne his father's name, I had to give him the middle name of Wayne. His father's 59 when he was born. 21, 59. And his father is not a rock star, he's not a famous fucking comedian or anything like that,

he's not a movie star, he's not anything like that, he's just a dirt bag and a con man. He's not the front man of the red hot chili peppers James. No that's what I mean none of that shit. Leonardo DiCaprio. No not the coach of the Patriots. None of that shit at all. Nope 21 59. Dirt bag. Dirt bag. Wow. He also shall also have another son so Tony will have a brother named Monty Monty Montweiler is the guy's name get out Monty Montweiler are you come on people again? This is the fourth time today? We've said come on everybody get it together. You gotta start thinking Jesus Christ, man

So one family member described dad Wayne who's 59 at the time 38 years between the two yes 38 years what the fuck you have to be so wealthy to make that work you just have to be such a like famous charismatic motherfucker to pull that off you can't just be a regular guy yes not gonna work yes and I don't care if it's legal it's fucking weird man it's gross never mind weird or legal it's just gross it's legal. It's fucking weird man. It's gross. Never mind weird or illegal. It's just gross. It's just gross. You'd fuck younger. Stop it. Stop acting like this is okay. You would fuck them at 16. You would. She touches his papery ball sack. Think about that. God damn it. That's so weird. You would. Yeah. 21 he'd be like, well I mean close enough.

You're absolutely right. Right. Absolutely. On the money. It's so fucking awful. So Wayne, the father, was born in Wisconsin. He's a brick mason. And one family member described him as, quote, a big fancy talker and a con man. Bullshit. Fancy talker. You know, a liar.

You know, to be 59 to bang 21-year-olds, you'd have to talk pretty fancy, I would think. Yeah. You know, what be 59 to bang 21 year olds, you'd have to talk pretty fancy, I would think. You know, what fancy is he talking? You know what I mean, how fancy could you talk? Does he speak French? What's happening? I couldn't imagine.

We've all been there, turning to the internet to self-diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes. Though our minds tend to spiral to worst-case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery. Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home by his son,

except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings. Hey, listeners, it's Mr. Bollin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast. It's called Mr. Bollin's Medical Mysteries. Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night. Follow Mr. Bollin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Nancy's love story could have been ripped right out of the pages of one of her own novels. She was a romance mystery writer who happens to be married to a chef. But this story didn't end with a happily ever after. When I stepped into the kitchen, I could see that Chef Brophy was on the ground

and I heard somebody say, call 911. As writers, we'd written our share of murder mysteries. So when suspicion turned to Dan's wife, Nancy, we weren't that surprised. The first person they look at would be the spouse. We understand that's usually the way they do it. But we began to wonder, had Nancy gotten so wrapped up in her own novels,

there are murders in all of the books, that she was playing them out in real life? Follow Happily Never After, Dan and Nancy on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Happily Never After, Dan and Nancy early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. First of all, a 21 year old at our age would be ridiculous. You'd be like, oh, this is silly. You are a child. You know, we're not in the same, not that you're a child, but compared to, I'm an old fart, so you're a child.

But 59, that's way older than us. I couldn't imagine that. That's crazy. Yeah, what is that? It's much older than me. I couldn't imagine that that's crazy. Yeah, that's what is that? It's much older than me Yeah, yeah, that's a lot. Yeah, that's a fucking long time. So yeah 43. I'm way older than her That's too much. Yeah, 22 years older than her double her age more than double her age You can't more than double someone's age. That's where it's like, okay, this is weird This is weird. So legal to drink and you were born's like, okay, this is weird. This is weird.

So- I was legal to drink and you were born? No. No, not at all. Yeah, that's wrong. I can't do that. No. Yes, both of our significant others

are 10 years younger than us, but we're comedians, so that's different. We're... Right. Yeah. It's... I'm just kidding. Maturally 27 27 at best.

Yes, we're children, that's the thing. In reality, they're much older than us, that's sad, but it's true. For sure, yeah. Anyway, Wayne is physically abusive, as you would be. I mean, you're already, just having sex with this girl feels like an abusive act, never mind anything else. Yeah, oh my God, showing her anything on your body.

Look at my balls. Yeah, jeez, that's assault. That's assault. Look at these moles. Come pick my balls up out the toilet water, would you, dear? That's not okay. Forget the genitals and such. None of it looks new.

You know what I mean? They all look so old. He's got the really long gray hairs on his chest. They're like four feet long and real. Oh, Jesus. So he shows signs of instability. Like at one point, he just took, he got angry, obviously, from the act here, and he took an ax

and just chopped up all the family's furniture in the living room. Just started going to town on the family furniture in the living room. That's interesting. Another time he went out in the garage or wherever and got cans of paint and just started fucking doing like the beginning of a living color back in the day where they spin around with paint cans and fucking just spreading, throwing paint all over the house. Just going, how do you like that?

That's what he would do. That's periwinkle blue. Look at that now. Well, part of it anyway. In 1974, they've been together for about seven years of marriage here. They've had a son and everything like that. Oh yeah, he's 60 fucking six years old at this point.

Linnie is planning to leave him. You know, her late 20s, she's starting to get a different itch for things. Starting to sober up maybe. Yeah, doesn't want somebody who's been collecting Social Security for a few years now. And he didn't want to be left, Wayne. Yeah. So at one point, she was at a restaurant in Bend, Oregon.

Oh yeah. And he showed up in the parking lot and shot her in the chest with a 22 caliber handgun and killed her. Had an argument, yeah, murdered the fuck out of this woman. Right there in the parking lot. Yep, they said, this is from his cousin Jim, said Wayne went back into the restaurant, he shot her, then went back into the restaurant. He shot her, then went back into the restaurant,

and they said he would go outside every 10 minutes to see if she were dead. That's how he said it. Oh boy. He just, she dead yet? Nah, bitch is still alive out there, pain in my ass, blah, blah, blah. The guy's not.

She's just bleeding in the parking lot while he's having hash browns. Bleeding out. Yeah, bleeding out in the parking lot. Oh my. Going and checking. So his father, Wayne, is convicted of manslaughter, which is probably lucky for him, because it seems like murder.

To show up somewhere with the intent of killing someone and doing it sounds a lot like murder to me. I don't know. Sounds a lot like premeditation, too. Seems like it. Yeah, to show up with a gun. He spent some time in prison and then ended up in the state mental hospital.

He was too much for the prison to handle. It's crazy too. So they put him in the mental hospital. And then in 1983, he died of a heart attack. God bless him. Go with God. This is Tony's childhood life. Dead mom. Man.

He's six years old, mom's dead, dad's the town crazy who's been put in both prison and a mental institution and he never sees him again. So that's rough, man. That is a... It ain't easy. That's a Batman start to life. Certainly, yeah, or worse.

Or a villain, or worse, that's what I mean. It's one or the other, either a superhero or a supervillain when this is your beginning here. He and his brother, Monty, embarrassed as shit your beginning here he and his brother Monty Embarrassed as shit by his last name and his name They went to live with mom's older sister Teresa and her husband Jimmy Ray Hilderbrand Old Jimmy Ray. I love it that family had three kids of their own and they lived on a dairy farm in Halfway, which was a town of about

300 people. What the hell was that? About halfway I'd say. Tween there and there. It is in Oregon's Hells Canyon Pass. So I assume about halfway through the pass. Yeah, Hells Canyon. Well, I just like to live in a small town in Hells Canyon.

How far in? About halfway. So small town and they live, you know, it's kind of isolated on a dairy farm in this tiny place. In high school, Tony ends up really coming out of his shell in high school. How so? He becomes a three sport athlete. And like, super popular and everybody likes him. that's one of the things you if you're a

Boy that you can do is if you're just really good at sports all else falls into place for you socially in high school like And a lot of I mean ever all everything's the same out there rules don't change. Do you know I mean like yeah, it's uniform out there We were on this team there on're on that team. Everything, nothing, there's no variables. We just know what we're supposed to do. And a guy like him might take to coaching because obviously dad was a lunatic and then gone. So a guy like him might look for a father figure and some guidance and that sort of thing.

So he's a three sport athlete. He also loves to fish and hunt because they're in the middle of nowhere there. His cousin Jim, again, said, quote, he could build or weld anything. He said he once made a winning ice sculpture of Bart Simpson. He made Bart Simpson out of ice.

Yeah, yeah. You can weld all you want, but if you can carve in Out of ice? It's artistic. That's not fucking welding. You know how fucking hard that is? That's amazing.

No, welding you can learn to do. I mean, there's an art to it, and a lot of people are better at it than other people. Of course, yeah. But ice sculpting is a whole different thing. I can't fucking ice sculpt. I mean, I've welded, I have an ice sculpt. You put two pieces of metal together,

and you drag the fucking electric thing down. It's not that hard., show me how to make a Sculpture out of a piece. You know like that's not yeah, by the way There's however many welders are listening to the show right now are going you fucking bullshit I'll show you a fucking good weld the bad weld Look, you know cuz my dad's a big welder, so I get it like we know we understand It's different the together, man. That's my point.

Yeah, whereas an ice sculpture either looks like Bart Simpson or it doesn't. Or it's a broken piece of ice with shards going everywhere that looks nothing like Bart Simpson, one or the other. I don't know how you make Bart Simpson out of ice. I don't know how you do it. The top of the hair, you'd have to really be gentle with that. Oh, man.

Snap one point off off you're fucked That's it you ruin the whole thing. Yeah, that was fucked Now it looks stupid. So this was at the halfway snow festival. Okay I guess it's partially melted snow festival is what that would be at the same time here They said Tony Jim said quote Tony always had a screw loose. Oh Yeah, he's whatever mental illness his father had seems to. He's got a little bit, yeah. A little touch of the crazy here.

Including, this is when he's a teenager now, this isn't even an old grumpy man, and this is insane. Anybody that would do this should be in fucking jail. All right. Sure. His neighbor's dog would bark whenever someone walked from the house to the barn in their house in the Hildebrandt House that he was growing up at one night

Tony told that told the family that quote you won't have to worry about that dog anymore. Why not? And they said well what why is that tone and he said I drove over it with the pickup truck and he'll shut the fuck Up now I squashed it. I just ran it it with the pickup truck and he'll shut the fuck up now. I squashed it. I just ran it over with the pickup truck. Oh boy. So Jimmy Ray, the old dad of the family here, told him, well you gotta bury the damn dog. It's not right to leave it sitting out there.

You know, at least. It's got to sink, yeah. Also just, you know, in terms of not being a piece of shit person. If you killed a dog, fucking bury it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Don't be a piece of shit person if you killed a dog fucking bury it you know what I mean Yeah, don't be a piece of shit, so they said that he got a whole Post-hole digger and just took one swipe of earth

Well a postal that's the two sticks James it like yes like fucking earth Yeah, a big spoon salad yeah, yeah, no worse like fuck two spoons That's the sticks the Japanese sticks Chinese chopsticks there it is there you go Bring your Japs on down here and pound them bring their chopsticks and tell them Dig a grave for this dog a done run over Dig a grave for this dog a done run over He did that just one with that shit and then laid the dog in it and then threw it in there Unbelievable and his cousin said he could have spread it out make a good-sized hole do it respectfully, but that's not what he did That's just that's Tony

So after high school being a a sensitive, caring young boy that he is, he joins the Marines. Which is- That's what we've got, I mean. I mean honestly though, what are, and anybody in here who's been in the Marines, what is your job as a Marine? All right, kill them all and let God sort them out. So you know what I mean, they don't build it,

so I mean this might be the right place for him, who knows, if he can maybe channel that in a good direction. Sure. So for three years he was stationed in Guam, where he was an MP, he's a military police guy. Really? Yeah, which is strange,

and not the guy you probably want to be doing that. I feel like the ASVAB fucked up right there, right? They picked the wrong job for that guy, Jesus. They were like, I think he scored higher in hole digging than he did in this and he didn't score high at all in Hold it as we found pretty bad So guys they were just his unit was responsible for defending a stockpile of nuclear weapons We apparently keep on a tropical island Okay

He earned two ribbons for good conduct, okay, and as we'll talk about he will Soon here. He'll end up getting married when he's in Guam that won't last long at all His marriages are not stable. He's got a lot of them and they're not stable Then and this is something that he claims haunts him for years and years During one patrol his his close friend, he said his best friend was another Marine named Michael, stepped on a landmine and was killed. Oh no!

I don't know why there was landmines here to begin with at this point in time, but I don't know if it's like Afghanistan where there was leftover landmines. Just sticking around somewhere. From the 80s and it was like World War II and they were still there in the 80s. Did they not get all the landmines in the 80s and it was like World War II and they were still there in the 80s. That doesn't, did they not get all the landmines in Guam from 40 years?

When they step on those, do you know you stepped on it? I mean obviously there's a, you find out. I think that's the point, yeah. I think they're under the ground, you step on them and kaboom. Then you move your foot and then bingo. Yeah, when you take it off like a mousetrap, it fucking slaps you.

So that's what he said happened. He'll have a different story later on though but this is a story he tells over and over again that he's haunted by his friend's death here because he saw it and he was there. It was April 88 he got married to a woman named Norma Jean Go Go. G-O-G-O Go Go. Norma-Go, and Tony, Norma Jean, and there we go. That's Marilyn Monroe's name, right? Yeah, absolutely, Marilyn Monroe Go-Go, which she should have taken that. That's what she should have.

There's a Go-Go dancer named that, I'm sure of it. Norma Jean Go-Go, I'm sure there's a dancer, five drag queens, eight burlesque ladies. Every way to tease about your titties, they name it. That's the one. So there we go. In 1989, he leaves the service. He's only in for two years.

Gets divorced apparently, I would hope, because he's gonna get remarried very quickly. He moves to Oceanside, California in 1989. Fuck yeah. So he's gonna get remarried very quickly. He moves to Oceanside, California in 1989. Fuck yeah. So he's gonna settle down here and he meets a young woman named Rosa Carrasco. Yep. And she was 23 years old at the time

and he was only 20, he was about 22, going on 23 also. And she was very pretty and he was smitten with her. He's doing it, yeah. Her stepfather, okay follow this on the family tree, put this up on the wall with strings connecting it. All right, her stepfather who lived in San Diego was Tony's Aunt Teresa's brother. Her stepfather, Tony's Aunt Teresa.

Well if it's, if the aunt has to be like a cousin aunt, because otherwise, yeah, because otherwise if it's his brother it would have to be his uncle. Her brother would be her, so it can't be like a- Unless there's a step involved. I don't know, I don't know what's going on. Oh, her stepfather was, so yeah, it was- Okay, yeah, stepfather. But still, that's his aunt's brother so yeah

right that's not okay step doesn't make sense that's on the other side it doesn't matter that's because it's her stepdad that's fucked up i like every both like oh okay wait no it's not yeah no same time that took him the same amount of time to process for both of us there so according to rosa tony was handsome and charming and an outdoorsy type and a tireless worker just got out of the Marines So he's used to doing things and shit like that didn't drink didn't take drugs Yeah, just a real square go-getter kind of guy and she was she was really into him I don't like this married and it's still married in cousin, but it's

Yeah, stepfather was Tony's aunt's brother. Yeah. So his uncle was her stepdad. So his uncle was her stepdad. That's not okay. There's no relation to any of it. No, but they're still coming to the same fucking Christmas. That's what I'm talking about.

No. There's no blood. Like the kids will be fine if they have kids. But other than that, it's gonna be weird at Christmas time. When people say how'd you meet him at my dad's wedding with his aunt. We were sitting on the same side. At the wedding, we were both on the bride's side.

You know what I mean? I don't like it. That's creepy. I don't like it at all. So, yeah, she liked him. She also said he rarely spoke of his mother's murder. He didn't really, he kept that close to the vest and didn't really say much. She said maybe around her birthday he would come around or around Christmas he

would say, you know, I wish my mom was here and that would be it. So he just kind of kept it, you know, I assume he's had time to deal with this since it happened when he was six. So maybe he's figured out a place. So after they get married, they move to Oregon for a little while, where he gets a job as a corrections officer and leaves the prison though, this is a great way to get fired from a prison by the way. Oh, fired, yeah. An inmate accused him of stealing naked photos out of his mail.

Some chick was sending him his wife or girlfriend who ever sent him naked photos. This dude who was job was probably to go through the mail because that was my mother's job at Green Haven Prison was to go through the mail. She used to, yeah, in the 80s she worked there. Oh, she said it was just tons of tits and drugs, tons of tits and coke. That's all that was in there. And it went worse. She said tits, it was like there was a lot of graphic shit and she'd have to look at

it all to make sure there was no a lot of graphic shit. She'd have to look at it all So the he fucking open he was like I'll keep this for later and put it in his pocket You're on the outside. You can go get a fucking penthouse this poor bastards in prison. Yeah, but this is real He's but he's like waiting with his dick in his hand for this. He's like, oh, she said she was gonna send me, should be here today, I can't wait. This guy's like, no, this is some girl next door shit right here, I'm gonna put this in my pocket. Wow, he also has some other run-ins with the law here. He gets arrested for a hit and run in 1991,

or 1990, August of 1990. A hit and run and property damage. So he hit something and took the fuck off, basically. I don't know any other details with that. But it's enough to make them go back to California. He lost his, you know, he's got nude photos and all this, and he's getting arrested, so he might as well leave. Here he joins a street sweeping business

owned by Rose's father. Yeah. So he starts working for his wife's father at this point. Okay. Okay. 1993 they have a son. Hell yeah. He and Rosa.

A son named Emilio. Yeah. Which is, Emilio, that's a poor kid. As soon as I was typing and I'm like, Emilio, this is terrible, this poor kid. Emilio and Tony, they said, became increasingly withdrawn after the birth of the son. I don't know if it was because of less attention on him

or if he was a baby like that. Or. You know, it could be. I mean, he's got a lot of trauma from his childhood. He doesn't know how to be a dad. Maybe that's part of it too. Maybe that's part of it, yeah. Treat him like your coach has could be, hmm. I mean, he's got a lot of trauma from his childhood. He doesn't know how to be a dad. Maybe that's part of it too. Maybe that's part of it, yeah.

Well, shit, treat him like your coach has treated you, maybe that'll help. I mean, that worked for you. Make him do laps and wind sprints and shit, maybe. I don't know. Keep going. It's better than running away, I guess, you know? So, he said-

Latch on that nipple or you're running laps, boy. Let's go, come on, you better latch, son. It's gonna be squat thrusts from here on out for the rest of the night. You're running suicides. Oh man. So they said he would disappear for hours at night and would just miss shifts at work, not show up. He'd disappear at night and then be gone the whole next day and then come home at some

point. Real flighty, huh? Yeah, and they never knew what he was doing or where he was or he just he's a nut. At the time, Rosa said that he wasn't much of a sleeper, she told people. She said, for a while I thought maybe he's on something because he was just always up, but he was never the type to do drugs. But he doesn't sleep basically, which is if you don't sleep, there's a couple different reasons for that. One is, if you don't sleep, there's a couple different reasons for that. One is bipolar, a lot of times.

People will have a manic phase, or just manic. You have a mania thing. But the manic phase will keep you up. Yeah, or there's a guy with knives on his hands that's in my dreams every day. One of the two. Sometimes you gotta run from that. Sometimes you gotta run from that.

And sometimes you just have recurring bad dreams that you don't want to fall asleep because, I mean obviously you're not gonna get hurt, but it's just not experiencing those dreams is pretty nice. It sucks waking up in a sweat and out of breath and shit, that's the worst. Or the only other time I hear people for days do this are like paranoid schizophrenics that lose time because they're somebody else and they don't you know No, they're not sleeping. That's the only other thing. I'm not saying that's what he is. I'm just saying always yeah, so

eventually Tony is going to Just take off from Rosa and Emilio and move back to Oregon and get a job as a truck driver His jobs have been so varied, it's just. Yeah, none of them relate. He can't stick with anything, because yeah, he's just kind of out there. So March of 1996, Tony and Rosa agreed to meet in a parking lot in Oceanside to talk about a divorce.

This is sounding eerily familiar of his mother here. Rosa told her family, if I don't come back in a couple hours, there's something really wrong here. So she gets into his Dodge pickup truck with Emilio, who was three years old at this time, and out of nowhere, because they were just gonna, they were driving like around in circles in the area, he just pulled onto the freeway and said, quote, change of plans.

That's not terrifying at all. Change of plans. I think that maybe we just need some time together. She didn't agree to this. Right. We going to Yellowstone? Where are we going? He drove 15 hours.

Oh boy. How far is that? What the fuck do you have? Yeah, it's a three year old. Can you imagine how many times a three year old would have to pee in 15 hours? That's a lot. So this is in Baker City in Northeast Oregon where his brother Monte lived. He's going to Monte's house. That's where he's going. Took him 15 hours to get there? from California. They were an Oceanside, California Okay, yeah, you're right. You're right. Yeah up to Baker City. So He they just lived there for two months

He just took her from the parking lot and said you're coming with me to move into Monty's house and they just lived there For eight weeks for months and they stayed in a rented trailer on the property Which is like, oh, this is great. Thanks for picking me up. This is terrific. I appreciate you operating my life for this. This is wonderful. And Tony appeared to just go leave and lose his mind a little bit more here. Rosa found clippings of newspaper stories. She had like a collection of newspaper clippings all about the same thing,

all about men who got away with killing their wives Who killed her wives and then got away with it somehow got acquitted? That's what he saves. He's like, oh man. That's a good one. That's a good article for the good guy so people save like recipes and shit or like Even like a big game. They'll save the story. This guy's like, oh this guy really Oh, you bash your head in with a fuck with that with an axe. This is great Yeah, a lot of guys have like the front page of one like the Yankees won the world Yeah

Yeah, he's got when he's fucking John Richardson got away with fucking beheading his wife. Oh Oh J's got a shrine to OJ You kidding me?'s got a shrine to OJ. You kidding me? He gets a shrine, man. So he would regularly take Rosa and Emilio, we're talking pre-Sunrise, to a payphone where he would get on the phone while they sat there and he would, they, according to them, it seemed like he believed that he was speaking with his old Marine buddy,

Michael on the phone. He found a pay phone where you could call heaven. So, or you could fall, call the afterlife. The landmine guy, the landmine guy. He takes them. It's 4 AM. Get the kid in the car. Yeah. We're going to the pay phone so I can talk to my dead friend. Oh man. Oh, okay, sure. That's totally normal, everything's fine.

Remember Minderbinders in Phoenix? You could talk, you could pick up the phone at the fish tank and talk to the fish. I do, I did comedy on the second floor. How did you do that? I did, the second floor with all the shit hanging upstairs. Yeah, with the basketball hoop on that stage. I knew where it was happening.

It's a big stage. It was actually a good stage. It's huge, yeah. You'd crush in that fucking room because it was half stage and then there was cramming people in there. Had a railing around it. Yeah, yeah.

You'd crush in that fucking room. That room was great. It really was. I used to go there as a kid. It was like 60 people top. Yeah, it was a great, ah, I miss it. That place was cool as shit. They tried to push those shitty

peanut butter burgers on you there. Everything there. The burger was fine. It was a fine burger. It was big, yeah, I don't know. It was okay. She's fine burger. Just a cool environment, yeah.

Yeah, it was okay. Did they knock that shit hole down? It was like a giant barn. I'm sure it's something fancy now. I think the building still exists, but it's closed. Oh, it's closed, okay. Yeah, like a giant barn. I'm sure it's something fancy now. No, it's closed. Oh, it's closed, okay. Yeah, I think the barn still exists, but it's closed.

They may have built office space there or something. With their gravel parking lot. Fucking terrible. Jesus Christ. So in addition to weird middle of the night payphone calls to the afterlife, Tony also all of a sudden out of nowhere becomes abusive, which he had never been abusive before at all. But he seems to be losing his shit a little bit here.

During one argument, he pulled out a.22 rifle that he kept in the back of his car, in the back seat of his truck, and threatened her with it. Said, I'll fucking shoot you, I have a gun. Another time, he held her down and choked her boy Oh boy, so things are getting weird and to the point where she's like, okay It was strange enough for him to essentially kidnap us and take us here. But now it's getting really fucked up I need to get out of here. So she starts trying to get an escape plan together. All right

She's got a brother named Javier and Javier is going to help her Escape that's the that's the plan here. He's gonna drive. Javier's the hero. Javier's gonna come in, scoop her up, and rescue her. The plan is for him to drive up from San Diego to get her and Emilio at Monty's house and fucking get out of there as soon as possible.

The hope was that Monty himself, the brother, though he didn't know what's going on, they thought he would help deescalate the situation because he seems pretty sane and wouldn't be like, wouldn't let his brother flip out and start murdering his children and his wife. So that's the plan. We're hoping Monty's sane enough and hopefully this'll work.

Oh boy. So March 26th, 1996 is the day that we have planned for this. Okay. Javier calls to check that Rosa and Emilio are there and in place. And still into it. Because Javier called, for some reason Tony got suspicious. He knows. Just something happened in it.

Yeah, he's very paranoid and he's actually right, but. How about that? Your brother called, you leaving bitch? You leaving? Is he coming up from San Diego to steal you and my son from me and drive you away to safety? Wow. So he jumped in the car with his wife and son

in the front seat of the pickup and took off. Okay, took off. Okay takes off. On the highway out of nowhere he just pulls over. He said he needed to collect his thoughts. He just pulls over and he's just sitting there talking to himself now. And Rosa said quote he's saying all these weird things that I can't understand and I just took that opportunity to jump out of the car. So she jumped out of the car screaming on the side of the highway on the shoulder, just losing her mind, help me, help me, help me.

So she left the kid in the car though because she figured he's probably not going to hurt the kid, he wants me, and so I'll get help and then me and the kid will get rescued. So instead he takes his.22 rifle and points it at his son's head. He points it right at Emilio's head and tells Rosa to get back in the truck. Oh boy. So she does.

Yeah. As a person would. Yeah. So he bound their wrists to the seatbelt. Both of them. And Emilio. He's a little prisoner too. And he said, quote, if you're going to leave me, I'm going out in a blaze of glory.

How terrifying is that if you're stuck with this guy? Especially because it's not like he's always been crazy. This is a new thing where you're like, I don't know even who the fuck this is anymore. This is a, he's been taken over. So Tony drives to Monty's house, drives back, like we're just gonna go home and pretend like nothing happened. When he gets there, Javier is standing outside. He's waiting.

And Javier's being a good brother because he's like fuck this, I'm fucking taking my sister. This is crazy. So a huge confrontation obviously blossoms on the front lawn. This is fun. So a huge confrontation obviously. Sure. Blossoms on the front lawn. This is fun for the neighbors. I'd love to be a next door neighbor for this one. Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in

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listen to Scamfluencers early and ad free right now on Wendree+. When the matriarch of a prominent Princeton family is found stabbed to death in her locked basement, investigators look from a serial attacker to her family, to Princeton University students. One hot-blooded investigator sees a conspiracy. Is he way off base or does privilege let you get away with murder? You can listen to In the Shadow of Princeton, exclusively and ad-free with Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or Apple podcasts. There's two brothers, another guy out there. This is a mess. So just put the kid inside. I don't want the kid to see this but otherwise this is crazy

So in the truck though By the way, Monty is trying to calm Tony down So they were right about that Monty's like chill the fuck out, bro. This is you're acting nuts. What are you doing? This is outrageous Rosa works herself free from the seatbelt here because she's been tied up She tried to she was trying to get Emilio out works herself free from the seatbelt here, because she's been tied up. She tried to, she was trying to get Emilio out, but he was really tightly bound.

So she was afraid of what would happen here. So she said, quote, I just started to panic. I had to make a quick decision and I had to leave my baby in the car. Oh no. That's a wild decision, man. So at one point, Tony gets back in his truck and starts ramming his truck into Javier's car. With the baby in the car by the way.

Baby still in the truck tied up in the seat belts. I guess that's as good as a car seat probably. So Javier ends up driving through a neighbor's fence when he tries to flee with Rosa. Rosa jumps in her car, Tony starts bashing it. This is in the front lawn of the fucking house. There's a demolition derby going on. Javier just takes off through the neighbor's yard, plows through a fence, which is crazy. Finally, Tony stops the car, grabs the rifle and Emilio and runs inside the house. So now he's got his kid in there. Obviously, police begin to gather on the lawn, as they might. This will draw some police attention if you have this kind of confrontation on the front

lawn. A demolition derby? Someone's calling. I think, right? The rifle and gunplay with a child and it's just you holing up, that's not good either. I bet nobody called though until the neighbor's fence got taken down and then they were like, okay, that's enough now. Now it's other people's shit.

Now it's my stuff, okay? It's going to cost me a few hundred bucks to fix that. So he, as they gather on the lawn, Tony does the strangest thing ever. I mean, not strange if you want the cops to kill you, but he begins firing the rifle indiscriminately out the door in a series of warning shots. Not at the cops, but in the air, out the door, like, hi, I'm here and I have a gun. He thought maybe that would make them go away. Make him understand he's serious. He then snuck out

and lit his pickup truck on fire. He got out of the house? He snuck out, lit his pickup truck on fire, went back in the fucking house. So now there's a giant burning car in the fucking goddamn driveway that's going to explode at any moment now and there's cops are trying to stay back from that and he's pointing a rifle at a Three-year-old's head in the house Wow, this is crazy shit. Yeah, so his cousin Jim by the way who happens to be a sheriff's deputy Perfect shows up here the the amount of coincidences in these in this story By the way of this person's related to this person, is fucking insane later on. Wait till you hear this shit.

So Jim Hildebrand shows up in his deputy uniform here to try to help talk him down, because he heard what was going on. He goes, that's my cousin. Maybe I can talk to him. I grew up with him. So finally, after 10 hours, he surrenders. 10 hours standoff with a burnt pickup truck and everything else.

The cousin Jim said, because I guess Jim went in to talk to me, let Jim come in to talk to him, Jim said Emilio had wet himself. Tony was just totally out of it staring out into space telling us they can't take my boy, they can't take my boy. He got a complete mental fucking snap breakdown. Somebody's gotta take him from you, man. You can't do this. He broke. This dude broke from fucking reality. So he's arrested, then they take him into custody

for kidnapping and arson, which is, yeah. He's lucky he didn't get more. Of his own shit, though, you know what I mean? Oh yeah. But I mean, just for firing the guns with the police in the vicinity is lucky He didn't get attempted murder. Yeah Assault on a police officer for every cop that's there exactly. That's so he's very lucky. He didn't get all that

So kidnapping obviously we understand that so it's assault but they do a charge him with assault in the fourth degree harassment Kidnapping in the first degree arson in the first degree, and carrying and use of a dangerous weapon during the commission of a crime. So he's put in jail, obviously. That's a 20-year sentence, isn't it? It seems like a lot, right? Especially the standoff at the end really puts the cherry on top where...

And the weapon in commission of a crime and the crime being first degree kidnapping. That's what I mean. Like before that, you get a good enough defense attorney, you might be able to argue misunderstanding about the kidnapping and enough to muddy the waters for a jury, but once you have a fucking standoff with the entire county's police force and you've shot at them and set your truck on fire and shit,

like I think you've gone past the point of that's a 20, right? Seems like it. So in jail, uh, he tries to kill himself immediately. Sure. That doesn't work. Um, that doesn't work. Then he starts telling anyone who will listen about all the demons that are in him and around him. There's demons everywhere, man. And he starts, that's all he'll talk about is demons. Demons, demons, demons. Oh, they're in there, yeah. They're in there.

Not around here, they're in there. If he just shakes his head, you could hear him rattling like a fucking maraca. I hear him in there, okay. Yeah. So he pleads not guilty by reason of insanity. Really? Yeah, which honestly seems like probably, I don't know.

There's some mental health issues, that's for sure. I don't know if it's, yeah. So his defense is that, and this is what his defense attorney's gonna say in court at the trial, his actions were guided, at least in part, by the voices of both his dead mother who had been shot and killed by his father. So he said this was his, he had his dead mother's voice in his head and he did whatever it said.

That's what he said. Dead mom did this. Why would his dead mother want him to do this is the weird part. I don't know. She seems sane. I could see the voice of my father. He's fucking crazy, but not mom. So people, there's a lot of publicly, a big argument and a big debate about whether he

meets the crazy criteria, insane criteria, legally. A state psychiatrist concluded that he was depressed because of his circumstances, but he didn't have any other mental illnesses and didn't qualify for the insanity defense. But a private psychologist disagreed and said that Tony had told him he heard voices. His mother, who was killed by his father, and his buddy too, from the Marines who died. So he hears him.

He hears him too. So they're both. Got him there. Got him there. He also described other symptoms that said that he probably suffered from bipolar disorder as well. Okay, so he ends up being diagnosed

with schizophrenia and depression here, and he is going to be, go to a verdict to find out if he's crazy or guilty. That is 1997, the verdict comes in, he is guilty, but insane. Okay. Guilty and insane. So he is guilty, that's good.

So he's, yeah, he is guilty. So he's placed under jurisdiction of the State Psychiatric Security Review Board, as we'll talk about, that's a thing that Oregon had that's kind of a special thing. He's placed under their jurisdiction for 70 years. So the rest of his life, essentially. He's almost 30 years old, so they're saying until he's 100, he's under their care. 70. 70 years.

I mean, I saw 12 to 20 as a possibility. 70. As jail. This is, he might do less time, but then they could put him away again if they thought he was going nuts again. They could hang on to him for 70 if they wanted to. Or if he never gets sane, hang on to him for 70.

Wow. So he's committed to the Oregon State Hospital. He's 29 at that time. And this, by the way, this hospital, you've seen this hospital. You've seen the inside of it a lot, because it is the primary filming location for One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

Oh! Yeah. Seen it, yeah. Such a shithole that it actually, the whole point of the plot of the movie was we gotta get the fuck out of this place, it's so bad. Or you commit yourself voluntarily, and that's why everybody except Jack Nicholson is it?

Exactly, one of the two. So yeah it's infested with mold and rats. Yeah, nice basketball court. It's sweet, it's pretty sweet. And you can get out the windows which is important, you know, it's very important. Including a wall of shelves in the basement Lined with because there's tons of storage from years of neglect. They have five thousand copper urns of unclaimed remains of people 5,000 five thousand of people who've been in there that have been cremated and nobody wanted so they Died in here. We just burned them up and nobody Those are just the unwanted ones that ended up getting cremated because nobody wanted them. So that's

So think about that people have died here so many fucking people Yeah, but these are just people they went I just throw them in the basement and they just threw away That's a mausoleum, right? Is that what you call that? Yeah, you'd call it should be something I think there's fucking cemeteries that don't have that many dead people in them That's crazy, dude. It's a lot of dead people. You can't just store that many. You can't do that, right? There has isn't that like not okay. Just put that in the basement That's what I mean. Give a special room a special little building the other Build a fucking like a storage like a thing but like say, this is for that special. I don't know something.

So according to the records here, Tony experiences auditory hallucinations and endorsed some paranoia in the early stages of hospitalization, but then seemed to settle in, they said, okay. So he's got comfortable with his surroundings now and he's getting chill here. Yeah. Okay, so he's got comfortable with his surroundings now and he's getting chill here. Yeah, um settled in so well that he became kind of like the he became the like the uh, uh, it's the word i'm looking for the um, uh,

Fucking illegal no the illegal shit guy He became okay. Yeah, he became the contraband fucking guy. Sorry. What the hell that word went from me. He would loan shark. He's loan sharking. That seems very sane. He's doing like what Uncle Junior did in The Sopranos when they put him in there. He was like, well run a poker game and charge him $5 for a Coke. And then he would sell, this is the best, this is so 1997.

He sold porn CD-ROMs to the patients. CD-ROMs? He would get CD-ROMs of porn and sell it so all these fucking people could be whacking it still. That's amazing. A psychologist noted that the staff was always challenged to try to keep up with his latest attempts at engaging in commerce and getting away with it.

Wow. Because yeah, he's smarter than a lot of these people in there, or not smarter, he's just more with it than a lot of the people in there. Yeah, so in 1999, this is two years into his stay, he incited a riot. Really? Oh, that's a- Talked all these people into rioting.

Can you imagine? He is Jack Nicholson, except he has to be there. That's the only difference. So November 4th, 2002. Okay, he's been in here five years. It's been five years. Okay, the security review board decides to release him to a group home in Ontario.

They can't handle it. Now, this is what they do also, this group, the board, they have these communities where they send them where they're basically like, they're basically like outpatient, almost, yeah, almost like halfway house facilities where they live a normal life and do all that shit, but they're under supervision also.

They have to be back at the house, yeah. And they have to get therapy and they have to do all that shit but they're under supervision also. They have to be back at the house, yeah. And they have to get therapy and they have to do all that shit. So they grant it. Mary Lee Burgess, who ran the Burgess Adult Foster home, said he was always very likeable, but he just had a way of working people and doing crooked things. He's a bullshit artist like his father. That's what it is.

A lady. artist like his father. That's what it is. That's a very minimal minimizing of a woman that I mean she's a bad guy. Things she just said is terrifying. Crooked. So now this review board by the way this is an attempt by Oregon to actually do something half decent because very quickly in the early 60s the president Kennedy at the time made a big speech about we can't have because this is when abuses and all these member like the Heraldo special. It's a famous thing back in the day where he went to the Cropsey place and fucking went in there. And if you look at old videos from the 60s when reporters would go in, these places were fucking horrible hellholes.

They just had people in there just with shit all over them banging their heads against the wall. Nobody watch, nobody helping, nobody doing anything. It was just a place to house people. It was horrible. And so this was in the early 60s is when that first started to become to light. And they said, you know, we got to stop this. So they ended up closing a huge portion of the mental health facilities in the country because they weren't horrible. They were terrible. The problem is they never

built any new ones. They just closed those. They never built any new ones. And by the eighties, they slashed all funding to that kind of shit. So that was that basically. So now you had way less places for these people to go and no funding for them anyway. So that's when you have a lot of, that's also when homelessness spiked too because those people were mentally ill. There used to be beds for them. Exactly.

So whatever your opinion is on that is your opinion. I'm just saying that's what happened. That's how it ended up being. So in 77, Oregon created the Psychiatric Security Review Board and it would evaluate and discharge different people. So it was the first agency for insanity acquittals in the country set up to operate outside of the prison system. So there's got to be, their basic whole thing was there's got to be something between prison

and no treatment. There's got to be something in the middle there, you know, just whatever we keep an eye on them, right? Yes. They their oversight comes with regular case manager check ins, drug and alcohol screening, a screening, subsidized housing, mental health care and work placement. And it's not even just for compassion, that's for their fucking safety because you can't put somebody that's mentally ill in with the fucking, it's like putting cereal in hogs. That guy's incapable of living with those people.

But now that's exactly what they do. That's what they're doing, yeah. Like if you read any book about anybody in prison, half the people are seriously mentally ill, they're not getting meds or anything like that because that's expensive They're just being housed basically and then it's fucked up stabbing each other over and over again Taking advantage of it whether they're being stabbed there. They can be sold for sex They can be yeah passed around for anything and yeah, so fucked up. It's oh, yeah a lot of times That's what they are. They're robbed all the time and shit like that

So the offenders would be placed under state jurisdiction for the maximum length of time that sentencing guidelines allow, but fewer than half of the agency's population, which was about 600 people, are in the state hospital. So they'd have kind of half and half, half in the hospital, half in this kind of halfway house world. The majority were living in Oregon communities with designated mental health center in every county offering services there. So they did that. This is expensive too, this program. Each person, it costs around $18,000 a month to run this program. It's fucking expensive, obviously.

So it's more expensive than jail, clearly. So the people who would be suffering from mental illness who have not committed a crime, they said might not have as much access to the system as people who've committed a crime because this is for the jail system. It's part of that. You got to commit a crime to get in here. So that's that. That's the tough part. They said most of these offenders have been charged with serious crimes, but they rarely commit another act of violence while they're under state supervision on the outside because they're very monitored. And they can tell when they're either snapping or if they're doing drugs again or some shit

like that. So the board estimates the recidivism rate for offenders on conditional release is around a half of 1%. That's wonderful. Which is nothing, yeah. That's nothing at all. So now June, that's what they say though when they're reporting.

June 21st, 2003, he's out and about and he's gonna be arrested again, Tony. He's arrested for a few things, all in the same act, unauthorized use of a vehicle, theft in the first degree, and theft in the second degree. Yes, there you go. He's gonna be sent back to the hospital at this point, because the board can revoke your release at any time

and send you back to the hospital. That's part of it. At a moment's notice, they can go, you're going back here. Apparently, he bought a truck at auction, but just didn't pay for it. Okay. Which means he stole it. He just stole it. Yeah that's called stealing it is what that is. You're paying for it, it's just bidding on it, it's not the whole transaction. You got to actually

complete it. Right. Wow. According to the police report it was impounded and it had stolen plates on it. So not only did he... Oh, he did. It wasn't a misunderstanding. He stole license plates and put them on him. Yeah, he knew exactly what he was doing. So back in the loony bin with him, there he goes. And while he's there...

Now most people when they go to a facility like this, I assume they're either trying to get out of the place or trying to get better maybe, they're trying to do whatever. This guy is trolling for fucking puss is what he's doing. What? Oh yeah, he finds a woman in there to hook up with. Oh, inside. Inside. Holy shit.

Which is always gonna work out great. Which side of the fence is she on? Oh no, she's a patient. Oh, not a doctor, no a patient. Wonderful. Perfect, there's gonna be a match made in heaven here. It's probably great sex. I'm sure.

I mean, it's cliche, but it's probably true. You know what I mean? Yeah, both sides. As hack as it is, it's true. It's like that's why it's hack because it's true. Absolutely. Oh, boy. So Roberta is her name, Roberta Chandler.

She's another patient. She began dating him in 2003. She said, quote, I was in love with him. So much to love here. He kind of treats you like a queen. He would give anybody anything they needed. But then there's that awful Tony. She's broken him into two separate people. He's two different guys. Nice Tony and awful Tony. Yep. So that makes a lot of sense. So yeah, he's dating her. He was back on conditional release within a month, by the way, of this act.

Yeah, that's too fast. He just said, like, he got confused or whatever. The recommendations were, this is based mainly on a recommendation from his caseworker, Alice Mills, who worked there. She wrote in his month at the state hospital that, quote, this should be a wake-up call that he needs to monitor behavior because of loss of freedom and respect is a big price to pay. So she thinks this properly chastened him.

He learned that if he does anything silly, they'll throw him right back in the hospital. I think now he's learned his lesson that he needs to straighten the arrow now, fly straight, big guy. So he would meet Alice and Tony, Alice Mills, the case worker and Tony, would meet nearly every week for nine years. And she seemed to really care about him and frequently advocated on his behalf. In one report she wrote that he's bright and capable, he's a good problem solver, and savvy in communication. Full of shit is what that means. He's hardworking and goal oriented, which if put in a good path that's great, but if you're a con man that's not great.

Yeah, and if he's got no,, he's never gonna toe the line. This is, these are all terrible qualities for a bad guy. As we'd say in crime and sports, he's good now maybe. We'll find out. Sure, yeah. He's got qualities that are positive. Something here. Now, okay, by the way, there's still murder here coming,

even though we've already had murder and kidnapping and fucking police standoffs and everything else. This is a happy one, yeah. So he's dating Roberta on the outside. I guess he's living with her as much as he can and he has to go back to the facility, whatever the halfway place. One time, during this, a fire broke out in her apartment

while he was there. Okay. A fire. He claimed the dog knocked over a halogen lamp and set the place on fire. Why you got halogen lamps? Halogen lamps and I guess this is pre whatever but knocked it over. Yeah. What year is this?

Is it 2000? Yeah this is what is this? 2002, 2003. Remember those tall lamps? Oh yeah. Yeah those things start fires. Everyone had them because they were bright as fuck. You'd have one you could light a whole room with it.

Yeah. You aim it up, and it lights this whole motherfucker. Whole fucking thing. It was 7,000 degrees if you put your hand anywhere near it. Don't drop any piece of paper on top of that light. No, that would take the fucking, take the hair from your knuckles, like fucking, whoa, cinch that off.

Holy, that's hot. Holy shit. This is safe, huh? All right. So, he ends up, like we said, there's a fire. On the insurance claim, they say, quote, he wanted me to say, this is Roberta talking, he wanted me to say that we had more stuff than what was in there. The insurance company threw up a red flag and I didn't get anything. Oh, really? He burned this, apparently, allegedly we'll say,

him or the dog burned this poor woman's apartment down and then she got nothing, all of her stuff is gone. Thanks. Also he's reporting the 12 Fabergé eggs that were destroyed. Yeah. Yeah. He's reporting his-

All the normal figurines. Yeah, his fucking Scrooge McDuck fucking gold pit that it wasn't all fucked up. I had a pile of about eight million dollars in the corner. Did you know that? I had that here. You know I had several rare paintings, right? I was a big art collector. I had Rembrandt's, I had a lot of stuff in there.

This is nuts. Basically the Louvre in this apartment. That's how we had it. I mean, that's, I put my money into art. Some people would buy a big giant house. I said, I'm going to get a small apartment, spend my money on art. You know what I mean? I wanted to look at it all.

That's what I want to do. So he has to meet with Alice Mills, his caseworker, about the fire. And Mills asked a clinical psychologist to interview him to see if he's an arsonist. Can you see if he's an arsonist. Can you see if he's an arsonist? What your opinion on this is? He arrived to the appointment on time wearing a t-shirt and blue jeans with his goatee quote neatly trimmed according to the report and his haircut short Neatly trimmed According to the psychologist they said this psychologist said that Tony did not have a quote serious problem with fire setting. He does have impaired judgment, which contributed to the fires.

So it's not that he really wants to start fires. It's just that he has bad judgment and if fires around them, that'll be the result of it. Not that he's a super in the fires. As evidenced by goatee. Yeah, neatly trimmed. So Roberta Chandler has a different opinion. She said, quote, I think Tony was playing and manipulating

everyone and everything he could to get whatever Tony wanted. There you go. I think she probably knows him best out of everyone here, too. That's the thing here. February 2005, by February 2005, he's involved in at least three more property fires by the way. Shit catches on fire when he's around. Which by the fact that he set his truck on fire for no reason back in the day. Right. He interrupted a kidnapping to start a fire for Christ's sake. Outside. When shit gets loud in his head, I feel like he starts

looking for matches, you know what I mean? He's like I need fire quiets it right down that's what I need. The crackling, the crackling. So by then one in his apartment led to, because in his own apartment, led to a $24,000 insurance payout. Oh boy. They did pay for the Fabergé eggs. He had runners insurance. Another he I guess set a fire in a friend's camper. Oh no, those brought bad. He set his friend's camper on fire. It got out of control and was gone and he ends up being arrested for reckless burning.

Which is not arson. That means like, if you were burning leaves in your yard or something and something else caught on fire, you might get arrested for that. That's very strange. Celebrating with a bonfire on a birthday, that's reckless burning. Reckless burning. Now later in 2005 he's going to go to jail for about 90 days, not for the fires by the

way, mind you, but for stealing $3,000 worth of scrap metal from a sawmill. Now he's pulling bubble shopping cart capers. This is fucking- $3,000. That's a fuckload of scrap. It's a lot of scrap metal. That's a truckload. Yeah, it's a lot. They didn't get them for stealing the truck too. I think it was a pickup truckload worth of scrap metal. He's always got a big Dodge pickup truck,

by the way. Loves them. So shortly after this, his caseworker Mills confronted him about his criminal bullshit. What are you doing? Setting fires and stealing shit. He told her that he could avoid these issues by being like some of his peers who don't do anything but take pills, sleep, and watch TV. That was his quote. Like, well, I could just sleep and take pills and watch TV and fucking pass out, but I'm

out there in the world trying to make something of myself. He's acting like I'm being ambitious and this is the fucking thanks I get. I'm out here giving the cops a reason to show up. No shit. So somehow in the midst of all of this, he finds another woman. He must be a charming son of a bitch. Because I've seen him, he's not the most handsome guy in the world by any stretch, so he's got He finds another woman. He must be a charming son of a bitch. Because I've seen him, he's not the most handsome guy in the world by any stretch.

So he's got to be just charm fucking city USA, boy. Because I don't know how he's pulling these women here. He finds a woman named Katie Gill. And he met her at a welding class at the Treasure Valley Community College. Okay. Yeah, he goes, community college welding chick he found. Hell yeah. at a welding class at the Treasure Valley Community College. At the, okay. Yeah, he goes, community college welding chick he found. Hell yeah. Is that an elective?

What is that? Katie the welder. I think that's you go there just for that. I don't think you're doing it. Is she there to weld? Yes, this is a welding class. It's not like, you know. Katie's an interesting gal.

Yeah, she's a welder. And they end up welding together and shit, which is crazy. They end up getting married, these two. They're going to have two kids. Dead serious. Dead fucking serious. They're going to have two kids in the next few years. Two kids.

This is all while she lives with her parents and he stays in the subsidized housing for the mentally ill in Ontario. What is happening with this, Katie? They're married and having kids. and he stays in the subsidized housing for the mentally ill in Ontario. What they don't even know with this, they're married and having kids. They don't fucking even live in the same house. He goes back to the mentally insane house at night. Wow. And she bounces the kids on her knees and she lives with her parents. They've got to. They must be. They're fucking in daylight. They're making children with the sun up. That's impressive. You've got them. They must be. They're fucking in daylight. They're making children with the sun up.

That's impressive. You've got to want somebody. So, spring of 2009, he requested a full discharge from the board supervision. Yeah. Full discharge. I'm a dad. Come on. Look at me.

I'm building a life. Exactly. I've got two kids and a wife and I can't even be with them. I'm fucking stuck here. So Alice Mills in her report wrote, I'm fine with this. Yeah, I'm fine with this. And she wrote in a letter to the board, my thought is that Anthony has a mental illness, but with symptoms well managed. If he does get into trouble in the future, it will more likely be due to his anti-social

traits rather than mental illness. if he does get into trouble in the future, it will more likely be due to his antisocial traits rather than mental illness. Like, he's more of a dick than he is crazy. If he gets in trouble, it'll be much more because he's an asshole than because he's a lunatic. You know what I'm saying? I'm fine with this because he's very dangerous, so let him out.

But what she's saying makes sense from the board's perspective of, you can't hold someone in a halfway house and all this shit because they're an asshole. That's a million assholes around there. That's a separate issue. If he does crimes because he's an asshole, then you put him in jail, but he won't do crimes because he's mentally ill.

That's for sure. That's her point of view. Is she saying that the behavior that he exhibits is more of a danger to himself than to public in society? She just saying it'll be his his mental illness won't cause him to commit crimes the fact that he's an asshole Well, and we can't hold him just because he's an asshole his mental illness is under control So that's the thing. Well, not the mental illness board Yeah, but it's it's till you sane, not till you're a nice guy. Till you're a good guy who we can trust

and wanna hang out with. It's just sanity. So it becomes a weird gray area where you're like, hmm, he's gonna fuck up, but he's not crazy, so what do we do? It's hard. Yeah, do you lie and say he's crazy so you can keep him? Who knows?

Anti-social behavior is fucking dangerous, man. That's dangerous, yeah, and it's caused a lot of problems in the past, obviously. At his request, though, even though it was backed by his caseworker, was denied. Within a year, he and his wife, Katie, have divorced. It's over now. She's moved on to a... She wants a guy that'll sleep next to her.

Yeah, she wants a guy that's going to come home with little welding burn marks all over him and then lay in bed next to her at night. Couple, we can pop each other's blisters, come home baby. Don't worry though, very, very quickly he'll be engaged again. Oh, is that right? Oh, absolutely, he never skips a beat this guy.

He's got Emilio out there somewhere. Who the, Emilio is long gone. He's an actor by now. Poor Emilio is, yeah, Emilio is committing his own crimes probably the poor kid so holy shit that poor kid. So anyway he meets his new woman her name is Anita Harmon that's Anita with two N's by the way and Anita. I've never seen that before. She goes by Anita that's what everybody calls her. So Nita Harmon, he meets her in the checkout line at Walmart. Atta boy.

Which is easy to do. You'd go, oh, what a big coincidence. Kismet, they're there at the same time. No, she's the cashier, so she's always there. So anytime you go there, you can meet her. So it becomes less mystical and cosmic, when you put it that way. Yeah, he could just look at the schedule and show up any time.

Any time, yeah. And he met her, and then he sought her out. He friended her on MySpace, because this is the time period here. Friended her on MySpace and pursued her via social media and email and got her to start dating him that way. And she was smitten man She told her family he is quote the man of my dreams. She doesn't realize she was just stalked

No fucking idea what's going on. She's getting involved with now. Anita's born in 1976 So she's a little bit younger than him nine ten years ish. She has two kids herself coming into this That's what happens. Well, he's got a shitload so. That's what happens, yeah. She's 30, I mean, Christ. And then her parents' names are Susan and Bud. We'll talk about them too, because I'll have a lot of quotes here. Now, Anita, Anita has problems of her own.

She suffers from pretty, pretty good bipolar disorder she's got. Pretty strong here, so that's tough to live with anyway. She lives on the property of her parents. Her parents on their property built an 1,800 square foot apartment for her. So she's all set up with the kids. They're trying to get her in a stable environment,

set up so there's not a lot of stressors that might make her have a hard time. Yeah, exacerbate her illness, anything like that. She has two kids, hugely into animals. She was a big horse kid as a child. So into that, and she would bring home stray cats all the time, and her mother would be like, please stop with the fucking goddamn stray cats. There's a lot of them out there, stop finding them.

Especially if you live on a farm. You know how many stray cats you're going to find? There's so many mice. Oh my God. All there is is mice and milk around here. Jesus Christ, do you understand? Fuck, so her condition, her mental illness, when it would get worse and worse, they said at times, because it would get worse from time to time, they said her apartment would

be in complete fucking disarray. You'd know her mental state by walking into her apartment. It was clean and tidy. She's doing fine. If not, they said disarray, dishes piled up in the sink, garbage everywhere, full litter box full of cat shit. And her mother says, I would hear her upstairs sobbing. Her depression was just so great.

So when she'd be on the downswing of the bipolar, that's so hard, man. That's difficult. So Tony and Anita own a business together. What? You hear these two and you go, they should start a business, I think, right? They can't work four people.

Well, they own Northwest Materials Management Services, which sounds fancy. Doesn't that sound like a big company? That's collecting scrap metal. That's their corporate name for scrap metal collectors. It sounds like a ABC Sand and Grab. It sounds like a place where they've got a big property. Yeah, Yeah, it separates sediment from like the pebbles No, no, they have a couple of pickup trucks where Full of air conditioning units Fuck an old fucking radiators and shit. Whatever bubbles is collecting on the wire. Watch the wire whatever he's got in his cart That's what they have

But their thing is they're kind of a middleman between But their thing is they're kind of a middle man between people with shitloads of scrap metal and the scrap metal people. Like if you have a bunch of scrap metal on your property, you can hire them to come clean it all up, take it to the scrap metal thing, and then you pay them a percentage of whatever the fuck it's worth, basically. That's what they're kind of their business here. So the now Susan, this is Anita's mom, describes Tony as, this is a nice way that your mother-in-law's

gonna describe you, possessive and domineering, that's great, that's what you wanna be, tried to segregate Anita from the rest of her family and other influences, you know, like these guys do. Like a stalker. Although Anita worked full-time at Walmart during their marriage, she also would then work after shift on the scrap metal business as well.

Because that wasn't paying the bills, she's still working at Walmart this whole time. Which is fucking crazy. So, yeah, it was in both of their names, the business. The mother, Susan, said it was a classic cycle of domestic violence, but it was more mental and emotional than physical. Yeah, and it's a lot of locker in this prison life

with putting her name attached to paperwork for scrap metal dealing, really? For scrap metal books, yeah, scrap metal shit. So August of 2010, they get a big job, big old scrap metal job. This is the Hyples, H-E-I-P-L-E-S is their family. That's the property. Edward Hyple, he contacts the company here,

Jita and Tony, about a scrap metal removal job. Now they owned a lot of property, the Hyples, in Grant County, where they had collected tons of shit basically. Antique metal equipment, old commercial trucks, vintage cars that have been rotting out there, logging equipment, train locomotives. Jesus. Just so much scrap metal though, basically at this point. They had like an old Plymouth out there, like a 40s Plymouth that had rotted away and all

this shit. They wanted away and all this shit. They wanted to sell all this shit as scrap metal. They just wanted to clear it out rather than go through it and see what they could restore and sell it on fucking eBay or whatever. So Hypal and Tony agree orally that the, which makes it sound like Tony blew him afterwards to seal the deal, that the Hyples will sell their metal to Tony and Nita, and they would process the haul to a recycling facility, and the Hyples would be paid based on the weight

and type of any metal that was removed from the prop. They're gonna get a cut, essentially. Everyone's gonna get their cuts. This job goes on for the next two months. There's so much shit out there, it takes months. So Tony, he hired a crew of employees to do this and everything they work to remove the metal from the property one of the employees Katie Montweiler, I Don't know if that's his

Ex-wife Or what his wife I know somebody's but she's a welder named Katie. That's got to be his ex, right? But why would she be with him still? It makes no sense. They've been... His circle can't be broad, right? He only knows a few people.

Who knows? That's what I mean. I'm thinking this is just... It could be coincidence though, as we'll talk about later. There's a lot of coincidence. She used welding equipment to cut apart the larger pieces of scrap metal so it could be more easily transported and everything like that. Yeah, torched it apart.

They loaded the metal onto trucks and hauled it to different recycling facilities, depending on what metal it was and all that kind of shit. So at one of the facilities, United Metals, the protocol went like this. Vendor would bring in a load of metals there, staff weighed them, weighed the loaded truck, then reweighed the truck after the metal was unloaded. Right. There you go. Yeah, like when you're trying to see how much your dog weighs. You weigh yourself first. Pick them up. The vendor's payment was based on the difference in weight, obviously. So the company paid the vendor directly and did not identify the source of metal. Now, in September and October 2010, Nita and Tony and two of their employees

delivered loads of metals to United Metals. While they were removing the metals, they periodically made payments to the Hypal family. On those occasions, their company would present Hypal with a check and a handwritten account, like a log book, of the loads of metal that they claimed they removed and what they were paid for,

you know, the books basically. On the last day of the job, Nita asks Eric Hypal to sign an accounting thing, like a sign off on the receipt. He said, no, I won't do it. He believed they had failed to properly account for all the loads they hauled away. Thought they were fucking them over.

He thinks there's more, yeah. Which I don't blame him for thinking that. He thought that the document did not account for the final load that had been taken from the property. Okay, now, this goes big enough for the cops to get involved. Several months later, Hypel tells an officer from the Grant County Sheriff's Office that they had stolen scrap metal from his parents, Nita and Tony. So Hypel gives the Sheriff's Office the handwritten accountings that had been provided by the defendants and the, later on, the defendants. The Sheriff's Deputy obtains business records from United Metal.

Imagine this is, you're a cop. You dreamt about like chasing people like, freeze police! And you're going around checking log books for scrap metal yards. This is not the excitement I don't think you wanted to. Imagine Tackleberry opening books. This isn't like Serpico exactly,

I don't think that you had in mind when you started this shit. So yeah, and other scrap metal facilities, Schnitzer Steel and Pacific Steel, where they had delivered scrap metal during the time that they were removing metal. They examined the weight of the defendants later on, this I'm saying the defendants, meaning their company,

metal deliveries as measured by the facilities and compared all that. The comparison suggested that they delivered more metal to United Metals and to other facilities than they claimed to have removed from the property. So they concluded that they'd removed and failed to pay them. They removed about 250 tons of metal, by the way. And they were trying to get paid for all of it and give them a cut for what?

150 tons, some shit like that? Basically, yeah, they paid less than half of its value. So what the medal they stole was worth, essentially, is $13,693 they stole from the Hyples. That's high-end methie. That's a lot. Well, it's tons, 250 tons. So they're arrested and indicted jointly, Nita and Tony, and tried for the crime of

first degree aggravated theft. And the police even put a thing in the paper saying, other victims have come forward to report similar conduct by the couple. That's how they behave. And victims are asked to call. They had like a special line set up if you were a victim of these scrap metal scammers. Have your family been diagnosed with lung cancer? Yeah, if you drank the water at Camp Lejeune because.

This is crazy, how's your vaginal match? Speaking of crazy, December 7th, 2010, Nita and Tony get married. What? Now that they're all indicted together and everything, you might as well get married together. What the fuck? He still lives in subsidized housing, by the way, in Ontario.

And he would spend weekends in Weiser, Idaho, like Bud Weiser, when he had custody a lot of times of the two kids. Because he would take the two kids he had with Katie Gill on the weekends, and they said Tony would just go into a bedroom and close the door, and the kids would be left out with Anita. Oh no. He's just like, watch these please.

Yeah, it's my time with my kids. Yeah, and this was in the attic apartment that they built for her, and Susan, her mom, Nita's mom said, I would hear stomping and screaming and yelling. And Susan says the only reason she thinks Nita put up with this was because of her mental illness. She said, bipolar people do some things that let you know that they want somebody to love them,

and that's what Tony provided. Tony was a manipulator. Sure. And he was in the same fucking boat. So they're, you know what I mean, the two of of them they go to trial in 2012 here for the scrap metal shit he's got an insanity defense so insane I saw stole scrap metal which is a can't count sometimes wow my insanity makes me not be able to count or be honest here which is fucking incredible they say that they're talking about mental illness here.

There's a lot of articles about what makes you mentally ill and whatever, and basically it's, some states have no, like Idaho has no mentally ill, like no guilty by insanity, none of that shit. You could be literally, you know, Sybil from the fucking movie they showed you in health class with like 18 personalities not know what the fuck you did, you're still guilty or not guilty, that's it.

Oh boy. Either they let you go or they put you in prison. So they don't have any of that shit. There's a few states passed laws that did that. So they said that there's a lot, they said this is a professor of psychology said what we've learned is that it's much more squishy than the determinations that we have to make in the legal system. Squishy. That's the way, that's the scientific medical way to put it. Squishy.

Oh my God. They said antisocial personality disorders or psychopathy, which manifest in traits like lack of empathy, a transactional nature, emotional volatility, and what experts call critical think or criminal thinking do not meet the threshold of the insanity defense. That just means you're a dick but not crazy even though you can't help it. What we don't want is the insanity defense to be redefined where this where this there's this new influx of diagnoses that fall under it basically. The defense they have here,

their witnesses testify that the metal was measured at the recycling facilities, including metal obtained from other clients. They're saying, no, no, no, no, that wasn't all your metal we took. We mashed that together with other loads we had from other, yeah, so that wasn't all't you all your about this from home Yeah, I brought extra from home

I have this here. You don't have that yeah, that's what they tried to say like when I got caught with my when I was stealing Yeah, cash register. They're like what's all this money on the side here? I'm like oh, I brought that from home Yeah, no I I brought that pre-wrapped shrink wrapped video game from home. That's I just carry it around with me. I haven't played it yet. It's mine When you're 12 so Anita testifies that she accounted for all the metals She had hauled from the property on a handwritten ledger, which she gave the guy She testified that the Plymouth and O'smobile the cars, in the last load did not belong to the Hipples. Okay.

Which they're saying they did belong to them. According to Nita, her employees brought those cars to the staging area on the Hipples property so that a welder could cut them apart before they were taken to a facility. So they brought them there to be cut and stacked with the rest of the shit and they're saying, no, those were on our property.

I didn't bring the welder to my car, I brought the car to the welder. Exactly, made it a lot easier here. So during this time too, there was a Supreme Court case on the insanity defense, considering whether states are allowed to abolish the insanity defense. Oh. One of the cases was a guy named James Coller, K-A-H-L-E-R,

who was sentenced for killing four family members, and his lawyers said he had such severe depression that it was impossible for him to understand reality or to distinguish right from wrong. They said because Kansas had eliminated the insanity defense, he was barred from raising the defense. So, that's how they were going into this. And they had different arguments. Stephen Breyer, the one justice,

he pointed out that this means that people are not culpable if they truly did not know what they were doing. If for instance, they killed a human being under the delusion that they are killing a dog, just as a hypothetical. If they thought it was a dog, but it's not. But they are culpable if they did not, if they do not know that their actions are wrong.

If for instance, they knew they were killing a human but believed a dog told them to kill that human. So there's, that's kind of how they're, he's trying to, and he said, what's the difference? It's a deep, deep question. Like, can you explain to me what the differences from a psychological standpoint? They got into all of that. Anyway, the verdict comes down, they're both found guilty of aggravated theft in the first degree. Okay. So there's that.

Both found guilty of that. Tony is sentenced to, you sir may fuck off, two years in prison. And Anita is sentenced to, you fuck off too, 16 months in prison. She got sentenced. Almost two years, Jesus. Almost two years. While in jail, county jail,

awaiting transport to the Snake River State Penitentiary, Tony passes a note to the sheriff's deputy. He said in this note, I do not know if it was a dream, a vision or voices. Was told that Anita and I would be in an accident and then he then he promised to tell the deputy quote where the dead bodies are that Anita hit in exchange for not killing us and then he said Anita did not do it on purpose it was an accident this hasn't happened in reality oh there's no bodies there's no bodies there's no anything he's saying I don't know if it was a dream a vision or voices or it was real but I was told that Anita and I would be in an accident there's gonna be dead bodies. So he's

trying to make a future deal where if you don't kill me I'll tell you where these future dead bodies are when they happen. Okay that's the note and then he probably gave him like a wink like right yeah you got you we got you and I get extra ramen noodles okay. So while in prison he kept up regular contact with Nita he wrote to her every day that they were in jail and professed his love for her and all that kind of thing she's let out in 2013 Nita is and when she's let out by the way her parents said she had threaded eyebrows and her hair and tight braids. She went straight, she went to prison quick. Yes, she did.

She got, it was a year and she's like, I'm in. She got a job at Dickinson Frozen Foods, which is a, they hire a lot of felons this place. It's a, it's an onion processing plant in Fruitland, Idaho. God damn it. Only felons will work at the onion processing plant. That's right. She smells terrific. Now she talks to her family a little bit about possibly wanting a divorce in 2013.

And her family said he would sweet talk her and tell her that he wouldn't do it again. And she was a rescuer. She had such a big heart. She always found a man who needed fixing. There you go. So 2014, this is nearing the end of his prison sentence for Tony, the psychiatric board, one of the members requested a spot

for him at multiple residential facilities and all of them rejected him. Okay. One of them run by Lifeways in Ontario called McNary Place. It's medical director Dr. John Bates by the way, remember this name, Dr. John Bates. He grew up with Tony in Halfway. He knew Halfway, he knew him from Halfway, Oregon when he lived on the dairy farm. Bates' father was the principal of the high school

and Dr. John Bates had played on the football team with Tony. He loves him. So he said I can't he can't be in one of my facilities because it's not fair. He called the past relationship an unavoidable conflict. Like I couldn't be avoided. So April 21st 2014 he's released from the state prison and transferred to the Oregon State Hospital and I guess they had it underwent a 458 million dollar renovation. Wow. Oh yeah they changed the whole fucking joint here. They could not find a community health center one of these halfway house type places to take

his case so there was little opportunity of him getting released here. As long as he remained under the jurisdiction of the board, which was another 50 years, he could be in the hospital forever for scrap metal charges. Golly. So he said the only way he could get out was a full discharge. So in April of 2014, he says that, he told doctors and social workers, quote, I know I don't have a mental illness. I'm fine, I need to be let out of the whole thing. Released, I know.

In April of 2016, the court, the county court, vacates both of their theft convictions, by the way. Him and Nita, they vacate their convictions. I don't know why, I guess on appeals here. I read the whole appeal, but the murder coming up is much more interesting than a scrap metal appeals case. Somehow it was overturned anyway. It's overturned.

They were already out, so who gives a shit? Gee, thanks, guys. Already got my eyebrows threaded and fucking my scalp hurts from these braids, but thanks. Fuck. Okay. December 7th, 2016, he takes his big swing here. He gets a state doctor will testify in front of this board that Tony has been faking mental

illness for 20 years to avoid prison. His whole life. His whole life. He said the hearing lasted more than two hours. Montweiler testified for about eight and a half minutes. When a state official asked if he'd ever had trouble sleeping, he said, no, I've always been able to sleep at night, which we know isn't true. That's not true.

We know it's not true. But he's saying he's totally sane and he's fine. They said, have you ever been depressed or felt like life wasn't worth living? And he said, I've always been happy. I love life. I'm always happy. Let me out now. I've never cried.

Never. He said, I mean, I've never been depressed. Never been depressed. That's crazy for anyone to say, especially someone whose mother was murdered when he was six. Didn't depress you at all? Not at all. We're keeping you.

Yeah. Because you're fucked up in the head. You got something wrong with me. What about the time you ran over that dog? No? Remember that? I love that. So when the guy pressed and said, you've never had any trouble getting out of bed and going

about your activities, he said, no, I've always showed up for work. I've always been Johnny on the spot. So he said that his lawyer in the kidnapping case back in the day when all this insanity stuff started, gave him a copy of the DSM manual, the psychiatric diagnostic manual. Really? Gave him that? Gave him a copy and told him to feign insanity. Find something fucking, here are your options of things you can be.

Pick one of those and do it. So that's what he says. He said as for the hearing of the voices of deceased loved ones, he told the board, quote, I basically made that up to, I guess, make myself sound crazy. I didn't hear anything. I had no choice, or I had a choice. Either I could go to prison, or I could take an insanity plea and go to the hospital. All I gotta do is make myself sound like I'm crazy and that's the route I took.

I've been using the system and just, I'm done. Okay. So, yeah, that's fucking wild here. Wow. A state psychologist warned the board that family members would be targets should he become violent, by the way, again. It's gonna be family members again, so just so you know.

So, we're pretty close to him, yeah. His attorney objected and asserted that for the first time now, I'm telling you I've been fooling doctors, I'm not gonna hurt anybody. So that's very interesting. One of the psychiatric review board's director, Allison Bort, said he lied about it.

He malingered. That's his testimony, that he didn't actually have a mental disorder. I think it was devastating to everyone in that, in that that was the decision that had to be made. I think if there was any way the board could have held on to him, they would have. He was dangerous but not because of a qualifying mental disorder. He's a dick but we don't pay 18 grand a month or whatever for dicks. So they said there was never any indication

he was experiencing active symptoms and he revealed to me that he was taking medication just to keep up the reasonable deception. And they said it would be very difficult to hide a serious mental illness for two years. And they said the last two years he's been in prison, he hasn't taken any fucking, any pills or anything. So he's been in prison, he hasn't taken any fucking, any pills or anything, so he's been fine.

So December 2016, it's a discharge hearing, they asked him, why now? Why is it just coming out now that United lied initially? And he said while he was on the outside, he could work and still stay in the group home and not have to pay rent or anything like that. So he said under the board's care, he said you have privileges. In some ways you get special treatment. He goes, but I can't get into that now. I'm in the hospital.

Let me out. So they said, okay. And they release him there. He's discharged from the hospital. Okay. I mean, the board's chair said, I don't even know where to start. While maintaining a lie for 20 years, they said he lived rent free. She said, I mean, that's troubling on all sorts of levels. I'm assuming somebody in the system might do a forensic look and figure out what the hell happened. But as of now, you're discharged. That's what they said.

Oh boy. Yep. My hope is that you'll do the right thing. I'm sincerely worried that you won't. That's the last words. They told him Yeah, get on out of here now Anita's living in Weiser, Idaho with her parents still that's where she is in the upstairs apartment working raising two kids working at the Dickinson onion place and

She had a new medication recently that her parents said it's like a light switch man They said well gave us back our old her parents said, it's like a light switch, man. They said, quote, gave us back our old Deneva. Oh, that's great. She found whatever works for her chemistry that is the right man. That's the problem a lot of times with mental illness. It takes years to figure out the right medication and the right balance and the right.

And then all of a sudden it doesn't work anymore. It's so fucked, it's so hard. Really hard, man. So that's the worst. So she would help cook and do dishes at Thanksgiving and bake sugar cookies at Christmas. Her mother said she was very thoughtful. Just wonderful. In January here, she tells her mom, I'm so happy.

And we settled things. And her mom said they had a big conversation. They settled things and said they loved each other and everything was great. Tony, though, the problem is when he gets out in December, gets a job at Dickinson frozen foods. Really? Yeah. I mean, he says it's the only place that'll hire felons, you know, she's been need is mad. She doesn't want him around. You know, they've been there in a dispute. They divorced while he was in the hospital. And on she charged $1,700 in phone bills, loan payments and various Amazon orders to his credit, his debit card.

She she and he's pissed. Some of it was without his permission. There's a then while they're at work, they get in a fucking argument over this. There's a police report and everything. They said the couple got in a fight on the plant floor at Dickinson amongst the onions about Amazon orders where Tony threatened her with releasing sexual videos of her he had in his possession. Dude. Yeah, my God. Jesus Christ. She reported to Human Resources. She went to fucking HR for this.

He said he's got pictures of my tits. No went to fucking HR for this. He said he's got pictures of my tits. No, that he might kill me. Oh, what? She went to HR and goes, my ex-husband who also works here might kill me, so can you not put us on the same shift? That's nice, yeah.

Yeah, I guess on December 30th they met up at McDonald's and it wasn't a good meeting, apparently. It was about the whole debit card debacle here. Holy shit, now in these weeks too, Tony is trying to intimidate her, like talking shit about her on Facebook, putting on her shit like that, making a point of being in her vicinity all the time

and then making loud derogatory comments about her. People from the plant would walk her to her car after work to make sure. She's that concerned, yeah. She's that fucking concerned about the whole thing, which makes, honestly, she probably should be, I think. If there's that much of a concern, though, then more people should be looking out, you know what I mean?

I would fucking hope so, but they don't seem to be. He shouldn't be working there. No, he's living at his brother's house in Emmett, Idaho He's living at Monty's house again, but he's staying with his new girlfriend Nicole krill on January 8th of 2017 he changed his Facebook status to quote in a relationship and Wrote to one friend time to enjoy life and be happy But I guess he had since Christmas he's hasn't been able to sleep very well to one friend, time to enjoy life and be happy.

But I guess he had, since Christmas he hasn't been able to sleep very well. And he had told a psychiatrist earlier, my sleep is one of my major warning signs like when I kidnapped Rosa. So when he's not sleeping he knows his brain isn't working right. Now January 9th, 2017, around 4 a.m., he told his girlfriend, Tony, does it. He's going over to Monty's house. He takes off driving his Dodge truck. About 5.30 a.m., one of the neighbors of Bud and Susan Harmon, where Anita lives, they

spot his truck parked on a side street right in the area. Okay. spot his truck parked on a side street right in the area. Yeah. OK. Police will find, a little while later, Anita's beat up Toyota 4Runner a half a mile from her home in the middle of the road, headlights on, keys in the ignition still. Like, people were fucking zoomed to space, just beamed up to outer space. It spun out and people disappeared.

In the middle of the road, it's just sitting there. It's literally in the middle of the road, like somebody cut them off and made them get out of the car at gunpoint or something. He ended up, he has her. He has her, Tony grabs Anita in Weiser and drives her about 20 miles across the state border to Oregon and gets to Ontario.

They stop at a Sinclair gas station in Ontario. He prepays for $40 worth of diesel, goes inside, gets two bottles of water and says have a nice day to the clerk and all that shit. Literally, he's friendly. Goes outside, it's dark and cold out by the way. It's cold, this is a cold area of the country and it's January. The roads are, there's a big snow storm had come the weekend before, so there's big snow banks everywhere.

Now the fuel attendant is an older guy, Vietnam veteran in his 70s named Michael McIntyre. He is the guy who does the gas pumping here. Oh, yes. Yes, because I think it's like Jersey, Oregon. Don't they pump your gas for you there? I believe I've never driven there. You know, we've we we over around there. So this guy is waiting to fill up the pickup outside. He because Tony went into prepay and this guy standing outside to, you know, have a click on the thing so he can pump it He 2017 this guy's got a Cummins diesel. He's doing it man. He's doing just fine so he hears some sounds coming from the cab this guy McIntyre and

He looks into the fucking into the cab and in the passenger seat Holding up her arms with her wrists bound to the seatbelt with plastic zip ties is fucking neat. This sounds familiar, huh? She said, help me, help me. And Tony walks out of the door just then of the store toward the truck. McIntyre said, just give me a minute, I have to go inside.

I gotta go tell somebody in there. So this guy, he goes inside real quick and tells the store clerk to call the police. He says, call the cops. There's a lady tied up in that truck. And then he goes back outside. Tony here, he's acting real casual. He goes outside and then, you know,

sits in the open door of the truck with his leg hanging out of the open door waiting for the gas to be pumped. Like he doesn't have a tied up woman in here, you know. So it gets to $40 and he starts to get to go to leave. He's like, okay, fires the truck up. The pump guy, McIntyre tells him to, Hey, hold on a minute. And Tony says, why?

He said, well, the cops are coming. Dumb thing to fucking say. He could have told me that he could, Naven Johnson. Okay. Dumb thing the fuck I was gonna tell you that he could naven Johnson, okay? The movie called the jerk cuz the guy's so fucking dumb. Yeah was able to hold criminals there For multiple minutes while we went back and forth to phone calls This guy can't figure out one thing to say other than the cops are coming Cuz that's what he tells him the cops are coming. Because that's what he tells them, the cops are coming. So Montweiler, they just fucking,

he said he reached below, this is the thing. Okay, he doesn't take off. They said that he stared at McIntyre for a minute, then reached beneath the seat. Pulls out, they said he came up with a wide-eyed crazy expression. Yep pulls up a fillet knife like a fishing fillet knife and Stabs her in the neck stabs need in the fucking neck with it. Just I mean a real bad one So McIntyre goes, holy shit. He goes he just cut her fucking throat. He starts freaking out out there obviously

There's a customer inside who just bought a box of donuts. Yeah, he throws the donuts down runs out there to help He said that when he got to the pickup he could see that the area around Nita's jugular was quote just all gone. Oh No big slash her throat. I mean, yeah fuck so The customer and McIntyre tried to pull him out of the fucking car. Are you adding who's guys are crazy in this situation? Yeah, he's been to Vietnam and this is scarier. I think I'm not touching that guy But instead of even attacking them with the knife to keep them away He fights them off with his left hand while repeatedly stabbing me in the chest as many times as he possibly could How the hell?

He got the door closed away from them Guns it plows his truck through a snowbank that is not you know It's not the entrance to the store just on a median there. He plows his truck through that ends up in the street Just on a median there he plows his truck through that ends up in the street Ends up in the center of Ontario near rusty's pancake and steakhouse. Yeah, what? Pancake and steak is it cuz they rhyme anyway He is just driving normal like like he's obeying traffic laws and shit a Patrol car spotted him passed through an intersection at a normal rate of speed just acting like nothing was wrong

The cops give chase. Yeah, they're after him obviously He then turns onto a two-lane highway and fucking guns it up to 90 miles an hour Yeah, and there's I mean this this is all snow-covered potato fields and onions and shit That's all it's out here, and he's just fucking going blazing During the Jesus Christ during the chase. He makes a phone call. He's 90 miles an hour. He's calling he's gonna call his girlfriend. He's late. He's probably got plans He said listen, I love you Yeah, but I'm not gonna be able to see you anymore because I just hurt Nita pretty bad.

So probably not gonna see me. And his girlfriend said, I knew that he had been in the mental hospital, but I'm just as flabbergasted as everyone else. Like, I thought he was crazy, but I think he fucking plunged knives into people. This is extra crazy. So during the police chase, that's what happened. Now

he's driving 90 miles an hour with a dead woman tied to a fucking seatbelt in his car running from the police. Heavy ass truck on icy roads. A diesel on icy roads coming the opposite direction on the same road is a Ford Excursion which is also a big vehicle. That's a lot of truck, yeah. Holding two people in it, David, who's 38, and his wife Jessica.

Their last name, by the way, is Bates. Really? John Bates. Yeah. Like John Bates, you know why it's like John Bates? Because that's his fucking brother. Yeah, of course it is. That's his older brother, Dr. John Bates. God damn it, really? Yes, which means that this guy probably went to... yeah. So they're calling

down, they've been married 13 years, they have five kids, these two. Five. Okay. They're driving their Ford Excursion, they're heading to work at the St. Alphonsus Medical Center in town where David's a radiology manager and she's an ultrasound tech. They're unbelievable people. Nice people. The couple usually took separate cars, but that day because of the snow, they decided to, David said he just wanted to drive them both so they know that they would make it safe

because he's driving. Montweiler's going 90 miles an hour in the opposite lane. He of course crosses over into their lane. David veers right to get away to go onto the shoulder, but there's giant snow banks on the side. Doesn't allow him to get right and get onto the shoulder. Therefore he, the diesel, the Dodge diesel plows into their excursion head on. Oh shit.

Going 90 miles an hour. There's nothing you can do. Head on, nothing like it's a two lane road, nothing they could do. Now the last thing that Jessica remembers from the collision is the sound of the change drawer smashing into the dash. She remembers the change going,

and she said and then blackout after that. When she came to, a police officer was next to her and his lips were moving and she didn't understand. She couldn't understand it, what he was even saying. He was asking about this car seat. Is there a fucking someone in that car seat? Is there a kid that got ejected or something? And she couldn't answer.

She couldn't process anything yet. She said, I couldn't even remember my name. Wow. She then blacked out again and then she regained consciousness in the ambulance and she said now she felt pain all over her and everything like that. First thing she said is, where's David?

Where's David? Where's David? And the medic just told her, I don't know, but right now I'm here to help you. I'm trying to help you. I don't know about, he's in a different ambulance or whatever. So she ends up surviving with a concussion,

three broken ribs, a fractured hand, and a collapsed lung. Brain damage and Jesus. Oh yeah, hit hard in the head, everything like that. She's in the emergency room at the hospital they work at. She works that. And she's saying, where's my husband? Where's my husband? And they told her, they didn't answer.

They were just working on her injuries and everything like that, but she insisted, where's my husband? He was pronounced dead at the scene. He didn't even make it to the hospital. Oh no. Yeah, he's dead at the scene. He had a really bad, he was driving and it just,

it was bad. It was a bad, bad scene. And he veered right, so he took more of it than she did probably. Oh yeah, he got hit with the brunt of it. It hit the corner of that fuckin' pillar, absolutely. It crushed into him and everything. It's really, really bad.

Now, Tony, because he's a crazy fucking asshole, suffered only minor injuries. Why would he be hurt at all? Minor, fucking two people almost died, crashed into anything going 90, minor injuries. Only a real asshole would fucking be that. Oh my God, they said that night, he's in the hospital, and he asked for a cup of ice at one point,

and occasionally complained he was in a little bit of pain. He told the nurse that I'm in the hospital because I fell down. She knows, right? Well, yeah, the nurse said, no, you were in a really crazy car accident where you hit somebody going 90 miles an hour head on. And he said, quote, that's not true,

don't go there because I'm here because I fell. Don't go there. Don't go there. Talk to the hand, he said. Yeah, he's like because I'm here because I fell. Don't go there. Don't go there. Talk to the hand, he said. Yeah, he's like, I'm pulling out any of my 90s vocabulary I got. Talk to the hand, mister. Don't go there, I'll tell you something.

Holy shit. Yeah. So the crazy part is, obviously the irony that Dr. John fucking Bates is David's brother. Right, and Dr. John Bates wanted probably to, would have said keep him in jail. Not in jail in the, in the thing rather than be released. He could have been under their supervision and not out in the world doing what he was doing. Um, this, they said that fucking, wow. Oh, John was Bates' younger brother, so David was the older brother.

John said, it's just turned into this ironic nightmare. If I had taken him into McNary, he'd still be under the board and all of this would not have happened. I'd still have my brother. Can you imagine that feeling? How the fuck you would feel? That's insane. So they search Tony's truck here. They find an empty package of latex gloves, heavy duty zip ties,

a roll of duct tape, a hundred feet of rope, a small pair of binoculars, a black nylon scabbard on the driver's side floor and next to the passenger seat, the bloody filet knife. He had a plan. Yeah. He knew what he was doing. He was going to hold up somewhere. He had binoculars to see when people were coming. And he probably used those to find her. Exactly.

That too. They probably scoped her out. Stalked the shit out of this poor woman. So he's going for the insanity defense, obviously. Even though he just said, I'm not crazy at all. Yeah. And that's a lot of preparation for a guy. That's not crazy That's well that that's the thing is you can prepare and still be crazy. That's premeditation. Does it mean yeah

It doesn't mean that you're you it just means that you don't know what you did was wrong. That's crazy That's the difference shit. You don't think is wrong. You could be a genius and have this preparation But you just don't know what's wrong to do it. You think it's fine. You thought you were killing an alien, not a person. You know what I mean? Like that kind of shit.

It's very technical in the law. It's weird. It's fucking strange. And I've read so much about it for this case. It's crazy. So they said he's going for insanity. This is when he was going for insanity a few years back now. This is six, seven years ago.

They said the insanity defense right now is pursued in fewer than one percent of all criminal trials. Really? Now a lot of that would be because they're those are probably smaller things if you get arrested for you know yeah they're stealing something you're not going to plead insanity for that. Yeah that's all trials. It's only successful about one quarter of the time. So one quarter

of one percent of these trials get found this way. So basically no people get found criminally insane. So the controversies over it, they say, tend to mask a deeper crisis of mental illness in the criminal justice system because that's the problem here. According to the most recent estimates 37% of prisoners and 44% of jail inmates have been told by a mental health professional at some point in their lives that they have some sort of disorder. They got a problem but they're not treated in there is the issue because you know we just it's not what we do. It's not what jail does. So at the same time they said 200,000 ex offenders with severe mental illnesses are currently living in communities throughout the U.S. They said

about 77 percent of them of them will be arrested in the next five years for more violent crimes probably. So they said that it's hard. So there's a new big newspaper piece here. This is the Maler Enterprise. Now the Malher Enterprise ended up winning a bunch of awards Really? For getting information that the board was trying to keep private. So they got a bunch of like journalism awards for making public information here. Now one problem is the Malher Enterprise made a series with ProPublica titled A Sick System Repeat Attacks After Pledging Insanity and suggested that the board in Oregon was endangering the public.

They said there was a piece filled with statistics that appeared to show that people freed by Oregon officials after being found criminally insane are charged with new felonies more often than convicted criminals that are released from state prison. I'm saying it's worse. But then the year after that, they did a review and found that the underlying data and assertions in the reporting, they had to do a series-wide retraction.

They said, but we fucked up, it's not that at all. They discovered that the coverage dramatically overestimated the frequency of which people discharged by the board commit new felonies. They said, actually, the rates of offenders being released from prison and committing felonies was way, way, way higher. They said the errors were due to a scarcity of available data and misreading of state records. On Twitter, one of the people that works for the paper there

said, I take full and direct responsibility for this tremendously damaging journalistic blunder. This doesn't represent the spirit of those who labor day in and day out at this newspaper. We will atone. So they fucked up. Yeah. They fucked up.

They printed long stats. They're trying to say that the crazy people are more dangerous than the people that are career criminals. Yeah, at least in the Oregon board thing, but instead it comes out that that's not true at all. It's not even true, yeah. June 20th, 2017, Tony is ordered to the state hospital to determine if he's fit for trial. The Oregon psychiatric board is suing to block the release of records of

his at this point too. But yeah, then the governor, Kate Brown of Oregon stepped in and ordered the records released. So fucking release them. People deserve, yeah. Which makes sense. This is Dr. Octavio Choi, which sounds like he's mixing two different ethnicities, a board that's interesting. I want a name like that. A Mexican- I want a name. Well, I got a long Italian last name. Just give me like an Asian first name. I guess it'd be fine. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, give me a name. Call me- Min Petragallo. Kim Petragallo, I'll be. I don't care. That's fine. So this guy's a board certified forensic psychiatrist and director of the Oregon State Hospital's Forensic Evaluation Service. Fuck. Imagine having to tell everyone that. What do you do for a living? Okay, hold on. It's complicated. Just look at my card. I can't. It's just a lot.

Read this. He made a 37 page report on Tony's mental state and sent it to the court. Good Lord. report on Tony's mental state and sent it to the court. The report concluded that Tony needed hospital care before he could assist in his own defense. He wrote that he had based his conclusions on a six-hour interview of Tony between in September 2017 and thousands of pages of mental health and legal records. Choi found that Tony had attempted to exaggerate impairment for the purpose of a favorable outcome,

presumably so he would be sent to the hospital. He cast doubt on Tony's claim that he was hearing voices, noting the time when he went in front of the board and said, that's all bullshit. So they said also that Tony provided highly inconsistent accounts of these voices and when they started. They said when he would be pressed about the voices, he would become quite angry. So anyway, the in September 2017, eight months after the murder, this Choi guy, you know,

re interviews him again, and kind of, you know, has the same thought here. During the interview, Tony once again claimed to have heard voices since his mother's death. The first time he said he heard, he was fishing at the edge of a creek on his uncle's farm when he was six, and a voice which sounded like his mother softly whispered Anthony to him. Yeah. He thought it might have been his aunt calling from the house, but when he ran to the house to check, it was empty. No one was there. He said, the voices continued into adulthood. Sometimes it would be his mother gently, gently telling him you'll be all right. You'll be okay. He said, then there were other voices coming from the outside

that were loud and critical. He said, they yell at me and everything. He said, quote, they're like assholes. We have never, ever heard someone describe their fucking delusional head voices as like assholes. They're like assholes. They're like assholes. He also believed that the staff at the hospital he went to for his injuries after the accident had inserted a metal device into his neck which connected to a cord that ran up to his brain. Broadcast my thoughts. Well he said since then his memories have been wiped clean.

That's what happened. Yeah. Most recently he said since then his memories have been wiped clean. That's what happened. Yeah. Most recently, he suspected that a lieutenant at the county jail could read his thoughts. They said, why do you think that? He said, well, because the voices are telling me that she can read my thoughts.

Well, that'll do it. That will do it here. So January 11th, 2018. Is he competent now? Yes Maybe Well choice says this guy has you know, almost certainly told lots of lies to get to the point He's at now there are lots of tests and things you can do to kind of back up your instant your intuition But in the end, it's kind of a gut feeling They said he's not fit to help in his own defense. Okay. So he's not fit. Susan and Bud, Anita's parents, they said, because in this, by the

way, he's brought into these hearings, he looks insane. Yeah. He's got a big beard, he's got bald in the middle of crazy hair. He's in a wheelchair, all slumped over, won't look up at anything. And the father, Bud father bud said quote. He sure looked crazy. I Mean, you know just based on looks he said never once lifted his head But Susan doesn't believe it mom says it looked like he was faking being mentally ill And she's okay. Yeah, if he goes back to some kind of mental facility He's going to be doing the same thing. He got away with before If he goes back to some kind of mental facility, he's going to be doing the same thing. He got away with before

So they said they were raising Anita's youngest child who was now 15 and she said, you know, we got a kid here and it's anniversary of the daughter's death and Fuck man. They said they brought they brought flowers to the Sinclair gas station on the one-year anniversary That's not where you want to look go to your daughter's remains at the Sinclair station No, she said when I walked in the clerk gave just gave me a great big hug She had wanted to call me but just didn't know what to say. A lot of people just don't know what to say 2018 his he still doesn't want to go to trial. He says he's had too lousy of a childhood to go to trial. That's crazy. Yeah.

Same as this man. That's what I mean. It was rough. It was shitty. I feel like I could do anything now. Defense attorneys said they combed through his past and they found a life of abuse and neglect and his mother was murdered and all this type of shit here. He said that he's so damaged

he's unable to defend himself and you know what are you gonna do here with this fucking guy he's a mess. So 2018 he sent ordered again to determine if he's fit for trial this keeps going on and on and on and they keep talking about the unreliability of Mr. Montweiler's self-reported history. Yeah and and then they say usually there's no clear, no brainer path when he does say he doesn't know or doesn't understand, is that reliable or not? Right, and that's the other part. That's what we're asking you, motherfucker,

you went to school for this. I'm a jerk-off comedian who dropped out in the 12th grade. I don't fucking know, you tell us. But he's so unreliable, how do you believe any of the bullshit that he says? Apart from, my dad killed my mom, we know that's true, but what the fuck else are we supposed to take into account the truth? We can't bullshitter and you stabbed to him in the fucking neck and I can tolerate the smell of onions That's the only things we can know for sure here

So he they said he should be properly considered highly dangerous and thus would be inappropriate for community-based restoration, Choi said. The ruling, the judge said, quote, this case is close. I have a serious concern about the defendant's potential for malingering, but on balance I don't believe I have a basis to contest. And I do agree with Dr. Choi's report and I'm going to define the defendant unable to aid and assist and I will be to define the defendant unable to aid and assist, and I will be sending him to the hospital for treatment. The families are super pissed at this.

By the way, Jessica Bates is gonna sue the Psychiatric Security Review Board, and the state also, and that's gonna be later dismissed by a judge though. It's dismissed, yeah. The attorneys were arguing that Tony's discharge hearing was improperly conducted and that board members were insufficiently trained to determine his mental condition and that the decision to discharge created foreseeable risk to the public.

Yeah, even if we had a trial about this, if John Bates' shit has a conflict of interest based on letting him out, he's certainly got a conflict of interest now. He can't Your brother's dead. Yeah, he's fucking dead So could the judge rule that there's no evidence of the PSRB board misconduct or impropriety And it was not reasonably foreseeable that upon discharge that he would be involved in an auto collision with the baits There's no way to see that because that was not part of the whole thing. I was running away from something else. So they did that.

Now December 19th, 2018, the state hospital reports him fit for trial. He's ready. Next month, the judge declares him all spiffed up, ready to go, his little bow tie is straight, and he's ready to fucking get rock and roll here. Let's get after it. He pleads not guilty to all charges. I am not guilty. I

couldn't do any of this shit. So I didn't do anything. So that's February 22nd. By February 26th he has changed his fucking mind. What does he want to plead to? Now he wants to plead guilty to everything. Okay. Changed his mind because they told him, dude, people watched you do it. We got so many witnesses. You can plead guilty to everything. Okay. Changes mind because they told him, dude, people watched you do it. We got so many witnesses. You can plead guilty, but insane or whatever, but you can't just say you didn't fucking do it. That's crazy.

So during sentencing, Anita's son, Lucas, testifies here and he said, all I can do is pray for your tormented soul. That's what he told him. The sister here gets on the stand. This is Anita's sister. And they painted a, they had to, cause they had to, they have to make like a human being out of her. This is who my sister was so you can know what it's worth so they can sentence him. So they said they talked about her joys, her family and dinners and animals and reading and even taking a long bath and shit like that, just little things.

They said she likes saltwater taffy and making homemade cookies. Then she said the cookies often came with colorful sprinkles on top. And this is a quote, Anita loves sprinkles. This isn't a criminal trial to determine the length of a man's sentence. Anita loves sprinkles.

Yeah, and I think that says a lot about a person, how you feel about sprinkles. A lot about, I mean, I was gonna say. That's an interesting thing to say. She then said that while going through her sister's belongings She found more than a hundred bottles of sprinkles in her house jars of sprinkles really wanted to put sprinkles on everything I'm gonna sprinkle the world god damn it That's a she's right. That's a fucking great person by the way I

There's nothing more. I love than fucking chocolate or rainbow sprinkles on any form of ice cream. The ice cream is just a delivery device for the sprinkles, because that's all I want. They do look great on everything. Especially when they're soft and not too stale. Oh baby. If they don't crunch, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, yeah, if they're soft, oh they're so fucking good. But they just make everything look fucking happy.

Ah, they're great. She's got a great point but they just make everything look fucking happy. Oh, they're great She's just got a great point. That's a very weird thing to say, but it's super strange But also I can't that's I mean, I can't disagree with the lady. That's what I'm telling you. She's talking sprinkles I'm like I fucking love sprinkles. I gotta be honest with you. If someone comes up to me and offers me sprinkles I'm gonna go that's probably a cool person. They got sprinkinkles. I'm sitting there with my fucking book open and I'm taking notes at this trial I'm looking at her fucking cock-eyed when she first says it and I'm going, you know, this lady's making sense She's talking us all this stuff and then she just goes Anita loves sprinkles. I'm gonna be like Is that the name of a horse or something? Is that a horse's name sprinkles? Is that her dog? Oh

No sprinkles. Well fuck I like Sprinkles too. All right, I'm feeling you now. I get it now, okay. All right. Oh man. The sister goes on to say that these crimes have terrorized her. She said, I used to be fearless.

Now I am a fearful redhead. I have anxiety. I don't sleep at night. I don't know what her hair color matters, but she's a very interesting lady. I like her a lot. Yeah, Stacey's cracking me up here. I want her to just wander around with me and say wild shit.

She's great. It seems random as fuck, right? She's just gonna... Just a worrisome redhead. Yeah, okay. Hope you put your snow tires on, because it's July. All right.

Cool, sounds good, honey. Wow. So, then Stacey says this, quote, I have no words of anger toward Tony. God loves Tony as much as he loves me. Which, if you're a religious person, that's how you're fucking supposed to handle this shit. You're not supposed to go, well, I think, you know, I should pick the vengeance form of everything,

because that's how some people do it. So that's nice, actually. At one point, she began to weep, and she said, I wonder what her body felt like when he stabbed her. I hate that I wasn't there to protect her. Jessica gets up there, too. Jessica says it's Jessica Bates, it's obvious you caused a huge amount of hurt and loss. It still feels surreal. I want you

to know that I forgive you. I really do hope this will give you pause to stop and seek God. She said, never in a million years did I dream I'd be married to someone so wonderful and have five children. I didn't want to lose David so early and then she looked at Tony and said I want you to know Anthony from my lips I forgive you Wow which is I'm saying these that's that's the right way to do it I mean there's the right way and there's a fucker way shit to hear that somebody that is and you're about to and you're still yeah you can't even be like oh well fuck you too Then you can't even do that You know you cut someone off in traffic and they fucking stop go like this and then wave at you

Yeah, you go. Well fucking all right. Well, I can't even yell at this person Yeah, I forgive you now go do all the time that they're about to give you that's a fuck. That's that's a burner Their son got up there also. The Bates' son. And he said that, yeah, he said that he couldn't put it into words and all of that. They got a nephew of David's and he said David was a great man in so many ways. There wasn't anything David wouldn't have done for someone and all of that. The prosecutor here. Dave Goldthorpe is his name He said there's no punishment under the laws of the state of Oregon harsh enough for Anthony Montweiler No amount of time in prison could ever even come close to making these families whole after what he did to them

He then called him evil Yeah, and he said our purpose he said even if he gets up for parole someday, he said I'll be there, the families will be there, he said our purpose will be to make sure the defendant never again walks this earth a free man. He said he should disappear into history, his legacy being one of jealousy, abuse, of greed, of deception, of evil. And after today, Mahler County and these families' legacies will be that they fought against evil

and that we locked it away where it will never again harm an innocent member of our society. Oh boy. He fucking threw the mic down. That's not even a drop. He fucking bashed him in the forehead with it afterwards. It's useless after this. Then he said he is abusive. He's a horrible human being the forehead with it afterwards. What's useless after this? Then he said, he is abusive.

He's a horrible human being, a horrible human being. And his face should never be seen by any of these good people who have spoken to you today. OK. Wow. Tony gets up and speaks. Oh, what? Yeah, what are you going to do?

Bag? Fuck. Starts just spouting crazy shit. shit broccoli cheddar soups in my pants. I got it everywhere who wants a scoop What do you say? He said I can't express the right words of sorrow I have caused too much pain to say I am sorry isn't nearly enough Now this is under the plea deal, there's a plea agreement for this here. You sir may fuck off. Life sentence for killing Anita but eligible for

parole in 25 years. So when he's 78. He would though, when he was paroled for that He will have to serve another 10 years of the 20 year sentence that he's been agreed to for Bates So he's looking at at least 35 years without parole He would also then get a three year sentence for injuring Jessica Bates, which would be served as well. So He's not he's yeah 38 years at least until parole. He's got that's a lot. He's got to be paroled on the first murder before he can start that other time. Yeah, yes. He has to actually be paroled, which I mean, that could be when he's 85. And then they go, oh, another 10 years turning around.

So, yeah, apparently the families of Anita Harmon and David Bates had sued the state and the board. They sued him for $3.75 million for the negligence, and it didn't work there as well. And so he is in prison as we speak right now. Yeah. Thank fuck for that. No kidding. He's put away, and I don't know.

I mean, here's a guy who, what can he say? Because he's obviously crazy. He's obviously mentally ill. He's mentally ill. He's sick. He's a sick man. But does he not know right from wrong? Because that's the law's definition.

I don't think, I think he knows. I think he knows. Yeah. Can he control himself? Possibly not. But he knows the difference between right and wrong. I think that's the problem is that he's mentally ill enough to have a dangerous personality,

and I don't think he knows how to control it. Therefore, we can't ever let that man out. And he's a con man on top of it. He's conned everybody always, including the board for 20 fucking years and the state and everybody else, so he could get free rent. Like, he's a scumbag if he's any anymore with it James he'd be a danger to the entire country not just every one

person close to him yes he's just a danger to his family at this point but he would be a danger to any and everybody if he wasn't and yeah this guy I don't know what do you this this where, this is the gray area of society where we don't exactly know what the fuck to do with these people. Because they're obviously nuts. Right. But we can't, but they're not like. He's with them enough to be a career criminal.

That's what I'm saying. Exactly. But he also is hardcore bipolar and all that, so it's like, okay, well, what do you do? Well, you put him in prison, but then we don't really have, I don't know, we don't have anything in prison. We don't have the infrastructure for that. but even when he's on the road to, We should, that's the problem. Right, even when he's on the road

to being a functional member of society, owning a business, he's manipulating that too, for personal gain. He's scheming, he's scheming, that was his second time getting busted for scrap metal stealing. You know what I mean? Like the lowest of the low. Yeah, scrap metal stealing. People just pick it up like the lowest of the yeah scrap metal

stealing it's people just pick it up off the side of the road it's free for fuck sake and you're gonna you stole it yeah Lee man this fucking guy yeah I don't know what because if when you look over his court stuff he's constantly being arrested yeah from 1990 from the time he's 22 up until the time he's in prison he is constantly in police custody there's a problem he's the time he's 22, up until the time he's in prison, he is constantly in police custody. There's a problem, he's getting sued, he's fucking being arrested, he's a fucking issue. So there he is everybody, that is Ontario, Oregon,

and a fucking crazy story, am I right? Jesus Christ, I think we hit you hard this week. So. I think, it feels like that was a systemic issue in that family. In that family, yeah. No, it's not going to stop. I hope his kids are okay.

Because now, his kids, dad's gone again. Emilio! Emilio, are you okay? I hope you're okay. I hope you're much better off without your dad. And I hope, because mom's okay, she lived and everything. So I hope your mom raised her. I hope mom married somebody great to be your stepfather.

Or didn't, just didn't fucking, just kept you away from crazy people, either one. Hope you're all right, Emilio. So there you go, everybody. That is Ontario, Oregon. If you enjoyed that show, tell everyone about it. Get on whatever app you're on that you listen to podcasts on and give us five stars.

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We are at, not Crime and Sports, we're at Small Town Pod on Facebook and at Murder Small on Twitter. You also can certainly head over to shutupandgivemurder.com. Tickets for live shows there guys. Not only, also tons of merch by the way. New stuff is up all the time. If you haven't looked in a while tons of new cool Shirts up there, but coming up September 20th is our next show We got the summer off and then we're gonna be in Minneapolis, which is one of our favorite places to go perform, too We fucking love Minneapolis, especially in that time before winter. We're gonna get like the last Not cold yet before winter comes and it's really nice. We have a really good time there. We can't wait.

It's at the State Theater, which is this beautiful fucking theater that seems way too nice for us. So before they realize that that's too nice for us and kick us out, get your tickets now. Do it. Sell it out. It'll be our biggest show ever if you do sell it out. Next night we're in Milwaukee at the Pabst. That's almost sold out. So get your tickets immediately if you want to go., otherwise there'll be none left. We also have Kansas City, we added more seats, so there's tickets there. Also Austin, Texas, Oklahoma City. You guys fucking beg us to come there. Sell these fucking tickets. We get so much come to Austin, come to Austin, come to Austin. Buy tickets, buy some tickets, buy some fucking

tickets Austin. We did it. We did it your turn. I I swear to God if they don't fucking sell that out I will never go back there again for anything I'm just kidding I'm fucking around but seriously come to Austin come there also Boston and New York too those are those are selling pretty fast and they're in December so get your tickets ahead of time on those shut up and give me murder calm. We can't wait for that shit We're super jacked for it. And then also patreon you want patreon patreon.com slash crime and sports if you don't know Patrion.com slash crime in sports. That's the other podcast that we do that you should be listening to but judging by the numbers

You're not so Judging by the difference between these two shows, very few of you are actually listening to that. Like a fifth of them. But thank you to the ones that are. Thank you to the ones that are. You are the best. And everybody else, please press play. Please give it a shot.

So anyway, head over there, patreon.com slash crime and sports, anybody five dollars a month or above, you can either get a cup of coffee or hundreds of back episodes immediately of bonus stuff you've never heard and then new ones every other week and this week is no different. We have one crime and sports, one small town murder,

you get all of it right here. This week for crime and sports, we're gonna do something that has nothing to do with sports. We're gonna talk about some of the most horrible industrial accidents in history. Oh boy. Body counts. Most people eviscerated in the shortest amount of time.

Shit like that. Really weird stuff, I'll tell you. You're going to go, at work everyone's gone. Oh, fucking Osha's a pain in the ass. Trust us. Here's why. We'll tell you why it exists. It's written in fucking bones and blood.

It's disgusting. Then for small town murder, we're going to talk about a very weird subject, the cannibal cop. He was a guy, a New York City cop about 10 years ago who said he wanted to eat women and do a bunch of shit. Did a lot of like army hammer type shit, but he didn't actually eat anybody. So we're wondering, you know, can you, is there charges? Can you be fired?

How does that go on? So we'll talk all about that what is it illegal to want to be accountable we'll get it we'll get into all of that that is patreon.com slash crime in sports and you get a shout out yes when do you get that shout out oh I think it's right fucking now Jimmy hit me with the names of the people who would never drive their truck 90 miles an hour head on into us at least would try not to Jimmy hit me with them right fucking now This is executive producers are Haley walls Raya B. Congrats on cancer surgery. Oh, no, that's wonderful Oh did well, I mean the surgeries bad. Oh good, but but getting it done and surviving. Yeah good for you. Yeah Welcome to the team other also Gary Gary Howard, Jen Mink.

Jen Mink subscribed twice, I think. She's terrific, thanks Jen. Maybe she gifted someone, thank you. Maybe, yeah. Jill King and Beverly Morrill, thank you all. Maybe Meryl, I don't know. Thank you for my present, Gary, as well. I appreciate that.

Oh yeah, what a guy. Thank you, Gary, I really appreciate you, bro. He's being very kind, yeah. You're a good dude, Gary. You really are, thank you. Stay out of trouble and don't cause problems at the fucking showers at the Lux. Don't cause problems at the showers.

That's amazing. Other producers. That could be anything. You really left it open vaguely. Is he peeking? What's he doing in there? Gary, what are you doing? Don't do that.

Stay out of trouble, brother. Other producers this week are Scarlet Horror Beast, Happy Birthday, Peyton Meadows, Abigail Gathered, donated twice, thank you Abigail, that's very nice. Janice Hill, Evan Pease, or Pease maybe, Alana Zemel, Maddie Sturm, Micah Tyler, Nick Weissman, Luke G., Hayden Feran, I think, Dark Windows Pod, Deb would know last name,

Astana, Astana? Astana, Kalash, Kalash the letter C-N-J. Thank you CJ. Talk to you bye. John, John, John, John, John, John,

John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John,

John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John,

John, John, John, John, C and J, CJ, the letter C and J. Thank you, CJ. John Blake Kearney or Kearney. Krista Keller, Amy Weinrich. Wenrich, Michelle Mick and Izzy. Garrity, oh Michelle Mick and Izzy, Garrity Bates. Hey, there you go.

If your last name is Garrity, I hope you are. Wasn't it Pat, oh, Pat Garrett, not Garrity. All right, moving on. Rosa Eiten, Quentin McCrudden, Bradley Powers, Tina Fogg, Samantha Ron, Angela Shimate, Ashley Roschetsky, Lee Heath, Christopher Ebeling, Lisa Liesel, Liesel Minone, Ben Dover, there he is, the guy exists. Everybody's been writing your name for years, Ben.

Yeah, and is Dick Gazzinia with him too? Who they found on the same desert island together? Hot Toddy, Matt Gordon, Brooke Whitfield, Robert McNitt, Brittany A, Corey Kavanaugh, Hadley Oberg, Jeremy Randolph, Larissa with no last name, Lucy Roots, Matt Spurgeon, Nick Grillot, Michelle O'Brien, Nikki with no last name, Amber Dreyer, Missy Dedlow, Sarah Baker, Petty Killer, Jen with no last name, Mara Catherine, Just Randy, Lauren with no last name,

John Ratz, Andrea Bacon, Elizabeth Price, Allison Delotinville, Delotin, Pam Castro, Haley Phillips, Edith McGiannay, McGallan, McGallanes, Maggie, Maggie, our sarcasm defender, Holly Garner, Seth, Bangy Banghart, Ivan, oh there he is, Ivana Foucar. Holly Garner, Bangee Banghart, Ivan, oh there he is, Ivana Foucar.

Oh, see, that's who's with, gosh. It's Ivana with Ben. I knew he had a bud there, yeah. Yeah, Ivana Foucar, that's what it is. Andrea Mack, Holden Gonzaga, there's also them too. Oh, nice. From the Gonzaga family, the whole family, yeah, I know them. Yuri Volnov, Jeff Doris, Abby Evans, Janet Lin,

Lunn maybe, David Inskeep, Myra with no last name, Dale Roberts, Justin Hegedorn, Ellie Johnson, Robert Wessel Tanner Murphrey, Terhan Jordan, Jordan Hill, Justin Taft, Stephen Darnell, Jeremy Haas, Sequoia Salazar, Andrea Belz, Andrew Belz, sorry Andrew, Marissa M, Kevin Hudson, Roots and All, Michelle Ryan, William Pagore, Janice, oh boy, Sagness, Sanice, Sagness, Andrew James, John Giles, maybe Gill's. Ryan McKinney, Auduballista, Elise, Allison Simonovitch, Simonovitch.

Allison M. Tyco, I think, T-Y-K-H-O, that's Tyco. Jacob Dick, Brianne Sullivan, Tina Davila, Davila, Peter Carini, Officer Big Mac, Suzanne Kelly, Jeff Jones, Roy Watson, WLH Kayden Kendrick, Skip Wiley, Nicky with no last name, Zach with no last name, Sue Bull, AMD420, Jen Mank, that's Jen there, she is again. Mandy with no last name, Patty with no last name, Jeff Scott, Tara Atkins, Troy Fletcher, Stephanie with no last name Nicholas st. James Josh Moore Ronda Ronda Kirkham Evan McKeern Chantel Conley Mariel van Tune

Amy Cartwright Matthew Bennett Casey Bowman Tara with no last name Kimberly with no last name Darrell Schooler Winona Kushal Samantha Richard Denise Parnau Hayden Bocceleve Nicole no corners no well go stalo Cricket on tour Jesse. Oh Iber I bury Ashley fucking shit. Damn it oliviado That's all right, man. You just got a 30 game hitting streak there. That was awesome We're getting real close most I would know last name Kevin Chitwood Cindy daughter

We're getting real close. Mosai with no last name, Kevin Chitwood, Cindy Daughter. Phillip Per- Kevin Chitwood? Yeah, Chitwood with a C. Thought you legit said Chitwood. I was like, somebody called themselves- Poor bastard, hurt it his whole life, the bastard. Yeah, I thought that's what you said.

Phillip Per-year, Mariah Plotkin, Beth Van Allen, Melissa Obel, John Jeldin, Chris Kay, Julie Pustos, Pu-estos, David Coyle, Adam Trout, John Warren, Jeremy Sopko, Rebecca Holra, Diana Thomas, Tina Buccioni, Bocioni. You're lucky there was no Italians in your good run there. That's what saved you. Latin Phillips, maybe it's Leighton. Brad Hinderleiter, Spidey Mama 4, preceded by the other three.

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