Small Town Murder - #597 - Talkative Serial Killer - Kellogg, Idaho

Episode Date: May 22, 2025

This week, in Kellogg, Idaho, when a family is murdered in their home, it leads detectives on a frantic hunt for two more victims, in an attempt to save them from a vicious serial killer. The hunt lasts almost 2 months, as the hope of finding them alive, begins to fade. Will they be found alive? The killer turns out to have killed before, and even defends his depravity through a series of blogs that will make your head spin!!Along the way, we find out that silver mining seems pretty dangerous, that sometimes you can tell exactly what someone is going to turn out like, and that once you've been caught being one of the worst human beings, ever, you should maybe not blog about it, from prison!!New episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to small town murder early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. When Luigi Mangione was arrested for allegedly shooting the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, he didn't just spark outrage. He ignited a cultural firestorm. Is the system working? Or is it time for a reckoning? I'm Jesse Weber, listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. This might just be the most important book you'll ever read. Go to SurvivalGuidebook.com to pre-order How to Survive Against the Odds today. This week in Kellogg, Idaho, the finding of a murdered family leads detectives on a frantic hunt

to save two remaining victims from a serial killer. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh yay indeed Jimmy, yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo, I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today We have some seriously crazy stuff for you today

Right absolute menace of an individual a serial killer and a bad bad guy one that slipped through the cracks for a long time It is scary stuff here. So we will get to all of that before we do though head over to shut up and give me murder get to all of that. Before we do though, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Oh, what's over there? All sorts of merchandise. Number one, everything from skateboards to bath mats. But you also get your tickets for live shows. Get them for the remainder here because pretty much everything that's going to be there is going to be in the fall, September and on. And a lot of those are sold out and the ones that aren't are selling out fast. Philly and DC in December selling out fast. Get your tickets for Seattle, because Portland's already sold out.

So get in there and get those tickets right now. We're very excited for that. That's shutupandgivememurder.com. Then also listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which trust us, you don't have to like sports to like this show. No, no, no. Not at all.

Some of the stuff, we did a 10 parter on Evil Can Evil. We have a multi parter on Randall Woodfield the i-5 killer coming up So a lot of good stuff there you want to check out and your stupid opinions Where we read the most annoying reviews on the internet and make fun of everybody for it So that's a that's a lot of fun, too. So you've listened to all that you still need to get patreon. Yeah patreon.com Patreon.com slash crime in sports, just like the name of our other show. And you get that. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get immediately upon subscription hundreds

of back episodes you haven't heard before. And then you binge on those new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get them all, baby. You get it all. You get it all this week, which you're going to get for crime in sports. We are going to do, we are gonna do, we're gonna talk about some of the worst soccer riots that have ever happened.

Oh? Yeah, that's a famous thing, soccer riots. Really? Oh my god, they collapse stadiums when they do it. It's crazy. I've heard of that, yeah. It's crazy, so we're gonna talk about. They're called hooligans, yeah? Oh yeah, we're gonna talk about some of the worst

soccer riots in history. You don't have to like sports to know about that. No, no, no, no. And then for Small Town Murder, we are gonna talk about the, it's actually the killer this week. We're going to talk about his blog. Oh, he has a very extensive blog and we're going to read from it because it is a dipshit that puts his thoughts out there. Oh man, it's fascinating. He compares. He compares. I can't even get into it now. It's crazy stuff and you gotta hear it to believe it.

So there is that, patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. That said, disclaimer time, it's a comedy show everybody. It's also a very real murder show. Those two things are both true. We are gonna make jokes but there is horrible murder and it's all completely real Nothing is made up for comedic effect or anything like that

And you might go well how the hell do you mix those things together? Real easily the way we do it is you never make fun of the victims or the victims families Well, why is that James because we're assholes? Yes, but we're not scumbags Yeah, that works plenty to make fun of including murderer, which is usually an ample target for humor to be picking on the guy. So it's a lot of fun. So we'll check all that out.

So if that sounds good to you, you're gonna hear a wild story. You think true crime and comedy should never ever go together, we might not be for you, but we might. It might not be what you think. We're not making fun of things that you might think we're making fun of that's right

Try it. It's good stuff. Eat your broccoli And then when you're done with that take a deep breath. Here we go arms to the sky and let's all shout Hey, let's go on a trip, shall we? We are going to Idaho this week. Oh boy, Kellogg, Idaho. K-E-double L-O-double G. Kellogg. Just like the cereal. Is it two Gs in Kellogg's cereal?

Yeah, of course it is. That's a strange thing. I'm a cereal connoisseur, as you know. Love cereal, I have 20 boxes of cereal all the time been eating cereal since I was a kid saw I Must see that name 400 million times and never took in what the spelling of it is that's definitely to two L's to G interesting This is up in the northern part of Idaho. This is panhandle country up here. Idaho Panhandle. Yeah, it's near Coeur d'Alene.

It's about 40 minutes outside Coeur d'Alene, this place. Two hours to Missoula, Montana, the other direction. Yeah, closer to that than most other stuff. And then two hours and 40 minutes to Lewiston, Idaho, which was our last Idaho episode, called the Incurably Crazy Killer. That was the one where a man named Dump truck beheads a co-worker and it's crazy Stuff man, you gotta hear that it was an express episode. This is in Shoshone County like the tribe

area code 208 The motto here and this is true. This is real quote founded by a jackass and inhabited by his descendants That's true. The reason is Noah Kellogg, okay the guy it's named after, his donkey alerted the prospector to a mountain outcropping of galena, a lead ore often containing silver. Sure. So this was a big deal and then people came all the way this donkey started a mining Silver sniffing donkey. Yeah, he had a silver sniffing donkey. Wow take him where the gold is Maybe you can yeah better than silver you why you treat Why you training that dumb shit? Yes. I don't think he trained him. He was just he's a natural

That's amazing so a little bit of. Kellogg was incorporated in 1907. The population in 1960 was 6,000 people. It was a booming mining town. And yeah, it became a center of silver mining and there was a lot of silver being pumped out of here. In May of 1972, the Sunshine Mine of Kellogg was the site of one of the worst mining accidents in US history It was a a result. There's a big fire that caused the deaths of 91 miners. Oh my

91 that is incredible fires. Hey, not just smoke no no underground Burning to death in a hole in the ground Jesus eight days after the fire started when they figured everyone was dead two men emerged from the mine Oh my god, can you imagine eight days down there? They were found on 4800 feet the 4800 foot level of the mine near a fresh air source They happen to find some little a pocket pocket where they're fired and get him and there was fresh air. It's amazing Everyone else died. They beat the fuck out of the owner. I know, you motherfucker. No, they probably took him out back and shot him when they were done.

So they wouldn't tell anybody about it. The Bunker Hill mine and smelter closed in 1981. The yields started to wane. That's what happened here. Thousands lost their jobs and everything kind of went away. And also the mining operations resulted in regional lead contamination of the water and soil as well. Why not? Yeah, that's all contaminated and fucked up there. Kellogg has been developing as a resort town after that and trying to take advantage of skiing and shit like that.

Come see and ski, come ski, come ski over the 91 corpses of miners. Yeah, it's a great mountain. It's, you know, come ski over the 91 corpses of miners. Yeah, it's a great mountain It's you know come ski over the 91 corpses of miners and get lead poison. It's it's fun. Don't drink water Five stars here's a review there for some reviews of this town because I don't know shit about this town Maybe it's great five stars Kellogg is a great little town with lots of character There's so many surrounding towns as well Kellogg is a great little town with lots of character. There's so many surrounding towns as well. The best thing here is that it's peaceful. Not too many people as well as not a lot of hype.

Yeah. I guess like other, well, some of the more popular ski locations are probably. There's a lot of hype around Breckenridge and Schillinger. Yeah, yeah. You're surrounded by the mountains and have very easy access to prime hunting areas, fishing spots, river access, lake access, and plenty of hiking trails.

Three stars, very small town. Home to Dave Smith. Dave Smith vehicles are everywhere. Who the hell is Dave Smith? I need more explanation on such a generic sounding man. Dave Smith motors and he just owns like a Chevy and a GM or a Ford and owns all the dealerships. You don't get a more nondescript sounding man than Dave Smith that tells you nothing.

It belies nothing about what he is or what he does. Beautiful scenery however. So apparently they are taking two stars away because Dave Smith's cars are everywhere. Fucking Dave and his car. The hell. And there's plenty of trails and rivers for the outdoors people. And then one star. Wow.

It is completely toxic. And they don't mean that in a social way. They mean that in a literal way. The environment was deemed poisonous by the EPA having an entire school district of elementary age children listed with the highest blood levels in the world. Blood lead. What lead blood lead levels in the world. Yet they are not the only yet they not only let people continue to live here, but now whatever is left alive today are the ones here and they are severely under reported about the devastating and volatile effects of social capacities from lifelong toxins exposures.

People here are thick in complete denial and loyalty to the cause of their toxic status, which is mining, is still going on strong and runs every inch of this place. People here are sick in the worst kind of ways. A ton of kept quiet abusive behavior from domestic violence to every age sexual assaults to suicides and homicides are through the roof this place is out of control according to that one person we don't know you might be fine I haven't looked up killing everybody beating the shit out of their wives and raping them population in this town 22 hundred fifty five so it was 6000 in 1960.

Oh wow. Once the mines closed, nowhere to work. Few more females than males so that tells you how far away from the mining we really are because otherwise I'm sure in 1960 it was probably two thirds male because of the mining. Median age is about 34 which is younger than the national average by a few years.

Lower married rate than normal, it's about 43% married. It's a little less of like, not really a move out here with your family type of place. It's kind of different type of place. Race in this town, 91.2% white, 0.0% black, 0.0% Asian, 1.5% Native American, 2.5 percent Hispanic. Religion here, 25 percent of the people here are religious, which is very low. Oh, that's incredibly low.

50-50 is the national average. Yeah, especially for Idaho. And I'm looking around. That's what I mean. And this is like Lutheran takes it with the top spot with 5.8 percent. So I mean it's... Yeah. Incredibly hodgepodge mixed bag. It's like 5.3 percent Mormon 5.5 percent Catholic

You know it's mixed around 0.0 percent Jewish though that we are pretty sure of in, Idaho The unemployment rates a little bit high here. It's about seven and a half which is higher than the national average Median household income here. This is crazy national average about 69,000 here, 35,000, 658. That is like half. That's the brokeest Idaho town in the entire state I get. It's gotta be. Wild. That's why people don't have a ton of kids here, I guess, and aren't married because

it's too hard. You don't have any money for it. Can't afford to get married and have kids. Cost of living, 100 is regular average here at 77. And the meat at the home cost is a big reason for that median home cost here, $256,900, which is below the national average. And if we've convinced you, damn it, you don't have enough lead in your bloodstream. We have for you, and you like to ski. We have for you the Kellogg IDAHO REAL ESTATE REPORT. Average two bedroom rental here goes for about $860 a month.

That is well below the national average. Really low. Here is a one bedroom, one bath, 580 square foot house. That's little. That's not a house. No and when you look at the house it's not a house. It's barely shelter. Like it's barely shelter. There's ceilings missing from rooms. No ceilings. Top shed with the partition for a room. Dude there's missing walls so never mind partitions. It's wild. There's missing floors and other shit, like this house, you need to knock it down and rebuild it.

And it says, would make a great Airbnb. Who the fuck is renting this? You are going to be sued. Wow, $125,000 for that. Maybe for like an escape room, like a serial killer can pop out from the open ceiling or something and scare you and maybe that sort of thing. can 125 grand is steep for that. Yeah. Here's a three-bedroom two-bath 1,526 square foot house real weird. It's like a Generic house like a suburban regular, you know three-bedroom two-bath house, but it's also a log cabin

It's on the outside instead of siding there's logs but otherwise everything else is your standard generic house here. It's really weird but it was built in 1910 so it's old school. $299,000 for that. Doesn't seem worth it. And here's a four bedroom one bath. I assume it's one and a half usually when it's one. It's usually there's another half somewhere. 21 down. Yeah. Yeah. Sometime for a listing, I guess, but it should be, you know, more than that. 2116 square feet. Um, the outside looks like if you like, if the Wolf came, the pig shouldn't hide in there because he's going to blow it down. It doesn't look good. But the inside is fine.

It's really nice. It's been redone. They just didn't get to the outside at all. So it's really weird. Inside fine, outside looks like, I mean, nobody would rob you. They'd be like, those people don't have shit. $430,000 for that house though.

Oh my God. A little pricey. What is going on? I don't know It's expensive up there though that median home price shit was they're off things to do here brews fest Yeah, you know what's gonna happen there craft offerings of breweries and cider ease from the inland northwest be craft beer scene Just chance to track down some local favorites that are only available in select tap rooms. Oh boy. You get a ticket here.

Tickets include a scenic gondola ride, entry to the event, a tasting mug, and six drink tickets. Dang! You're gonna be hammered. Six pack? Holy shit! Additional drink tickets could be purchased at the event if you're not falling down drunk enough already after six ticket prices Wow 49 45 95 are the tickets for this forty five dollars and ninety five cents that seems steep

It's steep man. That is a lot There's a combo ticket that includes mountain biking for the day who the hell What who says I want to have six deep beers and then mountain bike in the same. Who the hell, who says I wanna have six beers and then mountain bike in the same day? Who the fuck does that? What kind of crazy? I kinda wanna see if I can do it. That should be like an Olympic event.

Six beers and then mountain bike. And if you come out the other side of the trail, you win, that's it. I wonder if I can remember to ride a bike after six IPAs. And then maybe you ride before and then I would get so drunk, I don't know. That might be it, yeah.

Get so tired that you work up a thirst for fucking high octane craft beer. Jesus Christ, man. So they also say that you can't, prohibits bringing your own alcohol. Can't bring your own alcohol at all. No, we've got plenty here. Music they have, of course, because you're

going to be sweaty and tired and shit faced, so you're going to need this. So I might as well be annoyed. Of course. Listen to music you haven't heard before. Eternal Jones is one person. Hailing from Spokane, Washington, Eternal Jones is a rock and blues dance band with some surprises.

They throw in like a George Strait song once in a while and you're like, I'm surprised, that's weird. That is shocking. They played Taylor Dane before that. I don't know what's going on here, this is weird. They called Taylor Dane, Taylor Swift. Hell's going on here. I heard Paula Abdul straight up and followed by,

I don't know any George Strait songs, so I can't help you there, but a George Strait song. Have a real good morning, James, that's a good one. I I honestly couldn't name a George straight song with a gun to my head. Oh shit Fuck do I know about George straight? He's had more number one hits than anybody number one hits to who? Number one hits on the country charts. I don't listen to that shit, especially but we listen to real cowboy No, he's not he's playing music. He's not... He's a real cowboy though, James. No, he's not, he's playing music. He's not. If he was a real cowboy,

he'd be fuckin' doing cowboy shit, not playing music with a real clean hat on. But he does do that too, he's got a workin' ranch. That's a real cowboy. Oh, I'm sure, and I'm sure he's doin' all the work. Nobody's hired on that. I'm sure it's all, I don't really care about that. I've never, I know nothing about George Strait.

He's great. I could imagine being a teenager in New York going, I wanna listen to an old man sing country music. That wouldn't, what the hell, why would I do that? That would've been crazy. Wanna watch a very old man, and when you were growing up, he wasn't an old man, but he fucking sounded like it. He was an old man to me.

He's been an old man since he was born. Anyone older than the Wu-Tang Clan was old in 1994 to me. You know what I mean? They might be close to the same age, to be honest. Probably possible. So also New Jack City, NU, new. Not, okay. Yeah, not the movie.

Well, that was a movie. Yeah, not the Wesley Snipes movie. They blend soulful Motown classics with R&B and Top 40 hits. Blah blah blah. Okay. And then Tamarack Ridge Duo. Multi award winning artists Rico G and Lynette Sherry are a powerhouse duo whose names are synonymous with musical excellence across the Pacific Northwest.

Well that makes sense because I've never heard of them. What the fuck if they won awards? No idea. It says they have heartfelt ballads and high energy anthems. Yeah, dollars to donuts James, they're awards, none of them are Grammys. No, I doubt they're in the Northwest. Yeah, that's not going to be Grammys. Crime rate in this town, what we are interested in here, property crime is slightly above

the national average, not too too high. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault just below average. Okay. That one review made it sound like people were just clubbing each other in the streets. Just free for all. When you went out of your house, you cracked the door, looked both ways. And if you saw nothing, ran to your car, hope not to get shot by a sniper, that's what she made it sound like. So that said, let's, oh yeah, I did that murder, rape,

robbery, and assault, Mount Rushmore just below after. Okay, so that said, let's talk about a murder. All right. Okay, let's talk about a guy first here. Joseph Edward Duncan III. That's a lot. He's born, he's born February 25th, 1963. He has a couple of nicknames he likes to be called.

Joe Dunks? No, you would have thought so. No. Jett, he likes to be called. What? Or, this is a better one, Jazzy Jett. Why? What is he doing?

I don't know. Is he alright? It just makes me think of the in-betweeners when he goes to get that suit and he goes too jazzy? He goes yes maybe, maybe a bit too jazzy. Jazzy Jett. Why does he do that?

Don't know cause Joseph Duncan is a boring name. Joseph Edward Duncan I'm Jett. Joe's not so bad. No. Joe's a pretty good goddamn name. It's a fine, no one makes fun of that as a name. No.

You know what I mean? It's not like your name is fucking Chester or something. It's fine. Even as an adult, Joey's a cool name. That's not a bad name. He doesn't wanna be Joe's. A lot of people name Joe. He's gotta be Jet.

He thinks he's something special, this guy. We'll talk a lot about him. Name me the same thing as a German Shepherd. Really does. Jet. He's born in, name guy. We'll talk a lot about him. Name me the same thing as a German shepherd. Really does. Je. He's born in, name me an American gladiator name, please. That's what I'd like. I'd like to be named as an American.

I got a brand name, Laser, already. Nitro's coming over. We're gonna have a little chat. So he was born in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Oh, the military family? Yeah, that's right. I was gonna say that should tell you exactly what his family's all about

and what they're involved in. Okay. Joseph, or Jet here, is the fourth of five children born to Joseph Duncan Jr., the second, and Lillian Mae Duncan here. He has three older sisters and a younger brother, so they had three girls and then two boys, which is interesting.

His parents were married in 1957 in Pennsylvania, and then in 1958 his dad joined the army. And his dad will be a career army guy, next 20 years he'll be in the army. And yes, and apparently that basically he, so this is until Joseph is about 12. So basically he complains that they moved every two years with the military assignments.

They lived in Europe and several US posts and apparently this made him fucking miserable. Sounds like it, yeah. A doctor that he saw in his teen years said, a court-forced doctor, well yeah you could call it that but his court-forced psychotherapy more than anything else. Court ordered mental gymnastics. Yeah.

One said as a result of this, meaning moving around a lot, he kept to himself and a lot and formed only a few superficial acquaintances. So he never really made friends anywhere, he was always in his own little world, which is real weird. They said he told them he felt picked on and mocked all the time, so he spent most of his days watching TV and daydreaming. That's what he did. Just sitting around, which is not great for a kid. I mean if you're creative and you're artsy, that's great. Oh that's what he did just sitting around which is not great for a kid I

mean if you're creative and you go in your artsy that's great oh good terrific fucking upset that nobody wants to hang out with you that's terrible if you're writing poetry and painting pictures or like you know learning the guitar or something that's a different story but this kid's just an instrument he's sitting around seething is what he is just sitting around going why do we have to move? I hate my parents, I hate this, I hate all the kids. Yeah, planning his revenge.

He said, quote, we moved every year or two. We traveled quite a bit until dad retired in Tacoma. We went to school, we went to church, we were members of the Boy Scouts. We were typical teenagers. So, normal stuff here. Teenagers, but not typical underteens. Underteens, yeah, exactly.

So, 78 is when his dad retires from the military. His dad gets a job with the US Postal Service, working at, yeah, they hire veterans a lot. I know I have, an uncle of mine is an Air Force career veteran, he went and got a job at the post office right away. They have a veteran hiring program. It's great that they do that, an Air Force career veteran, he went and got a job at the post office right away. They have a veteran hiring the program. It's a great job, it's great that they do that,

but that sounds fucking exhausting. You have to get mail from so far away to so far away. Well, he works at the Tacoma Area Bulk Mail Center, so he's in a sorting center, he's not a mailman. Okay, all right. So he's just, he goes to the same building every day. Most people who work for the post office aren't actually carriers, that's a, you know. It's like a day. Most people who work for the post office aren't actually carriers.

That's a, you know. It's like a tooth, basically. You see that on top, there's a lot underneath it that's going, I don't know, I mean, it's a federal job. It's probably not that much work. It's a federal, I mean, I think it's just, you sort as much. There's probably just a shitload of them doing minimal work, yeah.

You just sort as much as you can in eight hours and move on, I don't think it's, that's it. Then the next shift comes in. I really think that's all it is. A very lazy approach to it. Yeah. I wonder, he's retired for fuck's sake. Yeah.

So a year later, after he retires and gets a job, after 22 years of marriage, his parents separate. Oh. So apparently the military thing was fine and then once they all settled down, it doesn't work out. He's like an athlete, basically. That's what happens with athletes. They get a divorce.

It's like 80% of them within a year of their retirement, they get a divorce, because it's like now we have to spend time together. I have to stare at you, fuck. The husbands used to be in out, you know, having affairs with other women in every city. The wives used to have, not having him around, but having millions of dollars to spend. It affairs with other women in every city. The wives used to have not having him around but having millions of dollars to spend.

It clashes when they get home together. Money, the bank account just goes down now. Yeah, it's fucked up. So their marriage was irretrievably broken, according to the documents, for unspecified reasons. And Duncan and a younger sister were the only ones, Joseph and a younger sister were the only ones Joseph and a younger sister were the only ones still living at home Meaning the younger of the sisters not younger. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I don't know his younger brother had already left somehow, but he's there I don't know how that works. I think it's in somewhat with dad and some stayed with mom too

So Duncan went to Lakes High School in Tacoma until his sophomore year when, in his sophomore year, he went to Christmas break and never came back from Christmas break. Just didn't go back in January. In his sophomore year. So he dropped out midway through the sophomore year, which isn't good. He had a good Christmas that year.

It was like, I'm not, I'm not going back. I'm not going back, man. He had a 1.7 grade point average. So it wasn't like he was walking away from much, which is weird because he's real smart. That's the strange part. An introvert too, right? Yes, it's a strange thing here.

Apparently he told doctors later on that he was using marijuana daily by that time, by the time he got to high school, and he was also into acid, amphetamines, barbiturates, and Valium. He's doing everything. And PCP. If he can put it in there.

If you got it and he can smoke it or fucking snort it, he'll do it, basically, or eat it, he's gonna do it. When he was 15, this is right after he didn't go back to school, he tried to run a police roadblock. Tried to just run through a police roadblock. Because he didn't have a license. So rather than just get in trouble for that,

he said I'll blow through the roadblock and run. He crashed, shattered his sinuses in the right side of his face. Oh no. And injured a couple cops too. Not great. Oh, no. Yeah Not good at all, man. So Now as far as the home life goes when his parents split up Duncan remained with one of the sisters at his mother's house while his younger brother went to live with their father Right for a while. So that's when you split the kids up into different camps too.

Now you're really splintering a family. I'm of the opinion that the kids need to stay together wherever they are, I feel like, if they're gonna have, if you want them to have a relationship like that. They either stay in one house or stay in the other or 50-50 at the exact same time all together. That's the thing, yeah.

You gotta move the herd together. It's kinda unhealthy otherwise, in my opinion. I'm not a doctor, I don't fucking know any of this shit. I know it works, but it seems like keeping everything together is the best way to do it. Yeah, yeah. So his father remarried and his dad started another family, had a step family and all that.

Really? So he's got that going. And we've talked about that before, how that'll that'll mess your psyche up a little bit when you're a kid and you're like, so hold on a minute. Guys can't can't pull it together for us, but you can pull it together for another family. Thanks a lot. It is dangerous. I've been there. So in 1980 here, he has some problems. And this is when he's 17 years old.

He'll end up in a hospital after this. Yeah. He has already run a roadblock, crashed his face, and now he's going, what's he doing now? Okay, well. Savor the flavor of the Dragon Slayer Smoothie for a limited time at Booster Juice,

one of three new dragon fruit sensations taking wing with the dragon booster ball and pink dragon booster mixer. Slay your cravings for dragon fruit. Order now on the Booster Rewards app. Lamont Jones's world is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County PA, a chilling true story of corruption and cover-ups that begins as one man's search for answers, but soon reveals a disturbing pattern.

Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many, and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never-before-heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County PA pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story, it's happening right now. Follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can binge all episodes of Death County PA early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. He knew that one of his neighbors was gone one evening so he smashed out a storm window and broke into the guy's bedroom. He stole four pistols. He's 17? 17. A thousand rounds of ammunition and some porn mags of course because they're there so you gotta take those.

I mean you gotta take them. He later said guns and tits. I mean what more does a 17 year old, if there was like a six pack and you know a sandwich and some beer and some whatever like that's the only thing that's an awful lot of ammo though that he's taking. A thousand rounds? That's a crazy amount. It's a shitload of ammo ammo that could kill a thousand people. That's a lot I mean depending on the the rounds because 22 caliber come in like a little brick. That's like it's 550 That's easy to take two up. Yeah, everything else comes in rounds of 50 or That's so heavy. He's got a pillowcase full of shit It seems like he said his intent was to return home, look at the magazines, and jerk off.

That's what he planned on doing. Holding the pistol. I don't know why he needed the pistol for that. But when he got home, he said, quote, then I decided why not the real thing? What? He's going to jerk off, but he's like, well, I mean, I have all these guns. Why don't I just go-

No. Oh yeah. So he said, so I got a gun and went cruising for a victim. What the fuck? He's 17. That's crazy. That is a- first of all, that's really annoying because a 17 year old with that kind of like self confidence should be doing other things

Able to earn pussy on his own. Yeah shouldn't need a gun at 17 You could be you should be like I couldn't even get a victim if I wanted to like you That's you should be so fucking emo at 17 that you shouldn't even know that you could are capable of being a monster You know, he had sex yet. Do we know that we yes, we'll find out all about his history here Yeah, he's had some some problems Is he having sex yet? Do we know that? Yes, we'll find out all about his history here. He's had some problems. So he found a 14-year-old boy in front of a nearby school. That's an interesting choice.

At gunpoint, he forced the boy into the woods and made him take all his clothes off and made the boy perform oral sex on him twice. That's not the real thing, man. You had to do titty magazines. Yeah, but I don't think that's what he's interested in. We'll talk about. He's got, his sexual proclivities go in all directions. He has no, there is no real lockdown, you know.

He's got a lot of ambivalence in the sexual department from things that have happened to him here In the past is what he says, but we don't know so he hit the boy repeatedly with a stick by the way Well, he did this and burned the boys buttocks with a cigarette repeatedly and then let him go Really? Yeah, so when he got home the police were waiting for him because the kid ran right back to the school and said Oh my god, I just got tortured in the woods. Joey dunks did it Yeah, he found a kid that wasn't a kid that's probably from a decent background and knows enough to you know And those that's not okay. Yeah, he's a bad predator. He didn't seek out the victim that won't tell you know what I mean predators often have that sixth sense

He doesn't have that yet to do that He got a kid who was fine and this kid is now gonna tell on him So he is going to plead guilty to first-degree rape over this at 17 Yeah, cuz the op the options are very limited there. That's not a lot there He wrote on his plea form. I held a gun to a juvenile and forced him to commit certain sex acts and His spelling is atrocious by the way commit is co mm et comet and certain is s e r Tan certain with an ass with an ass. Oh no. Yes I would say so

Now he When he's arrested and he's talking to the psychiatrist and all that he describes his mother as a very Domineering woman and claims to have been abused a lot as a child But his younger brother says that didn't happen his younger brother said I was there that didn't happen But his brother was gone after the divorce so You know what I'm saying? Yeah, now he says this is this is what Joseph old jet says here He said that the rapes then stemmed from a sense of rejection by his mother and father

He said he was upset because his parents had been fighting a lot and were breaking up and because he was doing badly in school and because he couldn't get into the Air Force because of his auto theft conviction for the car he stole and ran into a fucking police thing. So, not good at all here. So he's frustrated by his own actions and the consequences of those actions,

so he raped somebody. Yeah, and he's 16, 17, so in a year a year or two you know what get the fuck out of the house go get a job but that records expunged you know even if it's not go get a job and fucking work it out like that's life get out of the house make your own way the same shit I had for gypsy rose you're 22 I don't really care what just get just leave walk out the door and go get a job get an apartment That's it. It's the end of the hold on you period you know the

The car theft as a as a juvenile. I don't know the laws and that falls off your record in, Arizona I know that probably when he's 18. Yeah, but I don't know I guess maybe the federal government might be able to look into your background a bit probably for the Air Force database somewhere that you Can't delete But it may be locally it's got to go away So he is sentenced to for this rape use you young man May fuck off 20 years in prison All suspended what all suspended

Not no not a sentence of 20, 15 suspended, you do five, maybe you're out in two, you gotta talk to us like a counselor in there and all that shit and then we have you, if you do anything else you're back in for another 15. That would have been the smart thing, they just suspend all 20. 20 years, get out there and be somebody. That's right. Or else you do 20, right? That's the answer?

I guess so. Well, instead of that he is committed to a sex offender Treatment program at Western State Hospital basically there because he's because of his age They're trying to divert him and thinking if he can get treatment and stop whatever road he's going down Maybe he won't need prison type of thing I'm a firm believer the therapy can help and can help people grow and be better people I don't know about I don't know that they're that they can yeah I think we we figured out by now that... Yeah, different degrees of rape too. This is fucking crazy. At 17, that's a lot. That's crazy. That's a lot. I think they're just, they don't know

whether he, this is, his cement is wet still or not, I think. And if his cement's still wet, you can fix him, but if it's, if it's dried, already got a handprint and a date's carved into it, you're fucked at that point. This might be Hoover Dam where outside it's still wet, you can fix him, but if it's dried, already got a handprint and a date carved into it, you're fucked at that point. This might be Hoover Dam where outside it's holding up, but the inside is still so soggy and you can't change that dam anymore. Totally. You're right, I think. So a psychological evaluation at a Washington State mental hospital found that Duncan at 17 was quote preoccupied with deviant

sexual fantasies and also quote meets the definition of a sexual psychopath. That's not good at 17. Now get on it. Well he's in the hospital. He has to stay in this hospital. They didn't let him out. They instead of jail they put him in a hospital. And he won't he'll end up in jail. Don't worry. Instead of jail, they put him in a hospital.

He'll end up in jail, don't worry. So during assessments at the Western State Hospital, he detailed a sexual history that began at age eight. You don't do that without something happening to you. You don't, you just don't. It's been touched before, yeah. Anybody in the child range does not sexually abuse other children unless they've been abused They just don't they don't think of it. It's just not something that I mean maybe 1% of the time Yeah, 99% something's happening. They may not even realize that they've been abused

Yeah, oh no, they may think that they've just had had sexual contact of some sort They don't realize that that's not right and And that's the thing, and they haven't had treatment. That's why. If it happened to them and they got right in treatment or something from then, like other parents knew about it and put them in treatment, then they have a chance to be fine. But when it happens like that and then nothing's done

about it, yeah, a lot of times that manifests itself. Not that all people who've been obviously molested are gonna molest other people, but the ones who do have been you know Yeah, so He said the age eight when he was this is with his claim that he was performing incestuous sex acts with female relatives Don't know who that is don't know who that's supposed to be I don't know if he's trying to say his sisters or he's trying to say an aunt or mom or I

don't know what the fuck the deal is. He also tells doctors that by age 12, he had already forced a five year old boy to perform oral sex on him. Forced. Forced by 12. Imagine I had no capacity to force anyone to do anything at 12. Nothing. No. All I wanted to do was ride a skateboard at 12. Literally, it's all I play baseball and ride a skateboard.

It's all I was interested in. And my social skills at that point were so destroyed, I had no fucking idea how to even show interest in anybody. That's crazy. So at 15, he told the doctors that he did the same thing to a nine-year-old boy at gunpoint. Oh my god. So that time he got busted, not his first rodeo.

Not even close. Not even close, as you wouldn't think it would be, because that's kind of a, to have the balls to go up to a kid standing outside a school and take him into the woods, you've done that shit before. At gunpoint. At gunpoint. So the hospital report noted that it is important to note that mr. Duncan did go out looking for victims

This wasn't like they fell in his lap. He said I'm gonna go find someone and then went out. That's another thing That's really disturbing They also note that at 15 He had tried to outrun the police in a stolen car and at one point tried to run down a police officer That's guy to dive out of the way. So that for that he was sent to the Dislens Boys Ranch for several months when he was 15 which God knows what he would happen to him in there too which you know a little more history he said by age 16 he told the doctors that he had committed 13

rapes of young boys by 16 who did what to jet here yeah yeah he's that you're not fixable at this point no no that's so many if that was the first time he ever did anything what this is he's got a pattern of behavior and he is starting to hone it to really get it the way he likes it Which is also creepy in one case. He claimed that he tied up six boys six you know ages six through ten and Force them to perform oral sex and then rape them anally. That's what he said. This is horrifying. I don't know if, we don't know if that's true or not, so it's a little less horrifying.

That's a very, very tall tale. That's what I mean. We don't know if that's true. That's why it's a little, it's disturbing. Perhaps he's doing that to detract from the deviance and absurdity of what he really has done. Maybe, or I think he likes the attention. I think he likes, he's probably, if he's saying this,

they're calling extra doctors in to hear about it. Tell him what you told me, shit like that. He probably enjoys adults' attention, you know what I mean? Because it doesn't seem like in his family he got a whole lot of it. Not that that's an excuse for it, but. Right, there's not a lot of stories

in the history of child abuse that's made public that somebody had six children. No, that's like an Abu, he made an Abu Ghraab fucking pyramid out of these kids. That's crazy. I don't know if that's true or not. That's an absurd claim. Yeah, so the clinical director, Dr. William Voorhees Jr.

said, this position of power over children So the clinical director, Dr. William Voorhees Jr. said, this position of power over children has developed into a very powerful and compulsive pattern. Mr. Duncan is not safe to be at large. Right. Okay, now, by 1982, he's 19 years old, and the hospital basically gave up on him. They're like, we can't fix him, he's fucked, and he does not behave himself in here either,

and he's not trying to fix himself. He's just telling us horrible things and then doing more horrible things. He's just ruining my lunch every day. That's it. The therapist wrote in his report, after 22 months in the program, Mr. Duncan has showed an unwillingness

to modify his sexual deviant behaviors and has chosen not to commit himself to program techniques. They say that he showed a constant need to maintain secrecy about his fantasies and he rebels against treatment. So guess what? You're going to end up going to prison here. They cited a key incident on Valentine's Day, 1982.

His mother came to stay with him at a Western State Hospital cottage used for family visits. Right. So yeah because there's there's juveniles here so the families come and you can actually you know have a little family night in the college. It's like a conjugal visit thing but for families. Yeah with dominoes. Yeah with yeah with board games and shit with the chutes and ladders. Yeah So after she went to bed He grabbed a coat put his gloves on and grabbed an extension cord and then left the cottage Hopped the hospital wall and crept up to a nearby home With yeah with the cord where he spied on an 18 year old woman

and other people in the houses in the house the dog began to bark and somebody spotted him so he ran away went back over the wall and went back to the cottage where he woke his mother up didn't tell her I don't know if we told her what she's did what did, but after she woke his mother up, quote, she then taught him how to disco dance, according to the report. Hey, Ma, I'm in the mental hospital. It's three o'clock in the morning. I just climbed the wall to peep on somebody.

People found me, so I broke back into the mental hospital. Can you teach me how to do the hustle? Please? I need to know now This whole thing is dogs saved their lives maybe or say incident Yeah, that's why you get a dog. That's why I have dogs. I can't tell you how many serial killers Incident yeah, that's why you get a dog. That's why you have dogs. I can't tell you how many serial killers We've done stuff on and they all seem they hate dogs. They all say that you remember in the in the the Shit the Vallejo, California where the kidnapping that was they thought was fake and all that the guy told the one victim He goes, you know, you should really get a dog

If you had a dog, I wouldn't even come in he said I would have heard the dog bark and left He goes so you should probably get a dog. If you had a dog I wouldn't even have come in. He said I would have heard the dog bark and left. He goes, so you should probably get a dog if you want to be safer next time. That's the guy telling you that. The guy told her, yeah, he was giving her tips. That guy's a bad guy. A week later after this he announced that he wanted to leave treatment and serve his time in prison.

He wants to leave the hospital to go to prison. I need you to keep me in. Yeah, well it's also probably less strict time in prison. He wants to leave the hospital to go to prison. I need you to keep me in. Yeah, well it's also probably less strict at the prison. You have to kind of mind your P's and Q's in the hospital. You have to go to therapy, you have to do certain things. Yeah, there's a lot of like, you can just go to prison and sit on your ass and do nothing. And that's, he's like, I don't wanna fucking participate

in this, he'd rather go to prison and where he can get in trouble a little bit more. So one of the therapists wrote to the Pierce County officials about him he's exhibited little remorse or guilt for his sexual deviation while in treatment he is not safe to be at large and also that mr. Duncan is available for transport back to your county by your sheriff at your earliest convenience. Please come get this ragamuffin. This asshole. We can't stand him.

Come scoop up your boy. Oh my god. He also, by the way, in addition to the car crash, he claims that he was hit in the head with a shovel as a boy and that fuck has scrambled his eggs a little bit there. So he is going to go to jail here, gonna go to prison, where he says he's repeatedly abused in prison. Now we don't know if that is by staff or inmates. But he did say later on that he began to quote plot revenge on society by studying kidnapping and murder after that.

Wow. Yeah, this is not good. Where do you study that? Is that in the library? Yeah, you can see true crime stuff like that and you could read court cases, you can do all that kind of shit in the legal library there or whatever.

Sure. I mean, I don't even, this is a snowball, but I don't know what path would have sent the snowball from kept it from gathering more snow I don't know. I think he was who knows he was on it seems like an unstoppable path from a young age that I don't know How you stop this so? Now he started in January of 1991 Here January 2nd 1991 so he's still in prison He started a pen pal correspondence

and later developed a relationship with a King County revenue officer named Wolfert. This is his last name. So Wolfert wrote the review board in 1991 to try to help him get out of prison, quote, "'Mr. Duncan is filled with remorse for the act he committed many years ago. He is open, honest, and eager to move on with his life.

So that's David Wolfert there. He is no threat to society whatsoever. Oh, wow. So when he ends up getting released to a halfway house, Wolfert loaned Duncan here $3,000, also paid his initial rent in the halfway house, and reportedly hooked up with Duncan as well as a sexual partner. Confident sexual partner.

Yeah. So Wolfert wrote, it is my intention to back him, support him, and help him in any way possible upon his release. He loves him. He loves, yeah, yeah. So he said further incarceration of Mr. Duncan will serve no purpose whatsoever. So yeah, Duncan served 14 years for the rape,

and then he's gonna serve some more for some parole violations as well. Now his mother, Lillian, said that her son had to overcome tremendous hurdles from bed wedding to being spoiled by his father. That's not a hurdle being spoiled by your father. Is that a hurdle? I would have loved that hurdle as a child. That's interesting.

She said, I tried and tried to properly train him up in an authoritarian Christian manner, but his dad had apparently been raised in a very liberal fashion You know and you're blaming that rather than Either one of those sets a thing Either one of those can create the same thing for sure extremes create extremes. That's it Yeah, sometimes they go with the parents sometimes the complete opposite of parents So you never know he would they were almost assuring that he would go in extreme by having two different streams there so 1994 is parole and

Apparently, I will kind of go through a little timeline of some of his movements around this time in 1994. So this was after September 28th, 1994 is when he is released to a halfway house in Seattle. This was after repeated since 91 ish unsuccessful pleas for parole. So he starts treatment with a counselor. October of 94, a couple weeks later, he lands a job. Wow. Desirable hire he is. Holy shit. How the hell is he working?

Telemarketing for Time Life Books. So this is in the 90s, so when they had those commercials for like Time Life's books, you know, Aliens series and all that. You'd call a number. He's the guy that answers. This is the guy that answers and takes your credit card number. Oh God. Yeah. So April of 95 he moves out of the halfway house with the okay of the courts and everything and into the Tuscany apartments in Seattle

He also that month spends Easter with his mother in Tacoma. They attend church together the whole deal May of 1995 he visits his father who was in a retirement community near Las Vegas He's hanging out there. Yeah Yeah, one of those joints. They're just no kids allowed Those are the weirdest things in Phoenix just son and fun and old man balls out. Yeah, just old man balls right golf carts That's all it is fucking weird June 1995 he looks into schools offering courses in computer science Yeah, okay

January 1996 meets a married Seattle mother of two and starts dating her. Really? Yes. So. Seriously? He's dating her, yeah. He means it. He means it.

She is, you know, married at the time, but he doesn't care. He's not looking for, I don't know if he's looking for a full relationship or if someone who's not available is exactly what he's looking for a full relationship or if someone who's not available is exactly What he's looking for you know what I mean? That way I can't can't progress any more than it already is So January of 96 at the same time he meets her and starts dating her he gets a new job at a software company in Bothell Bothell

B-O-T-H-E-L-L, Bothell. August of 96, he moves in with a gay couple, he knows, in North Seattle. Oh. Yeah, so he moves in with them as a roommate. He's a throuple now? No, no, no, he's a roommate, he's a roommate. Okay, all right. If you had a roommate move in with you and your wife,

you wouldn't automatically be a throuple. You know what I mean? Just have a border in there now. If you're not fucking. He also tests positive for marijuana during a routine parole urine test. So he is arrested in October 96 because of that. They arrest him after the test comes back.

He tells police he's worried about losing his job and he has two kittens as well. So he's like, I have kittens and a job. Like I can't go to jail. This is crazy. Who's going to feed him? Who's going to feed him? So after several weeks, he's paroled again with new restrictions. Then after that, he disappeared with, you know, his married girlfriend.

He stole her car and disappeared. Sure. Why not? He just has no, you can't pin him down. Pin the tail on the Duncan. It doesn't work. You can't do it. He's moving too much.

He refuses to conform to any societal rules though. And even when you think you understand what he's about, he just does something the opposite. He's like like it's so fucking weird. So Anyway, December of 1996. He spends Christmas with his sister in Washington and at that point He's working two jobs. So he's Doing a lot March 4th, 1997. he tests positive for marijuana again. But apparently, they don't arrest him for it. I don't understand.

They gave him a free pass. You get one failed test a year, buddy. In Seattle, it's been progressive a long time. March 25th, 1997, he quits his telemarketing job that he had for the other software company. I don't blame him. Yeah, that's an awful thing. Then March 27th, 1997, he calls his parole officer angry about a polygraph test result. Apparently. Yeah, he was made to take a polygraph and they told him he failed it and he's pissed

off about it. He didn't like it. So he called to complain. He said at that point he was calling from his mother's house in Tacoma, which is where he's supposed to be. Yes. Okay, so May 20th, Dave Wolfert, remember him? Yeah, that old therapist that he was sleeping with.

The revenue service guy. Oh, is that what he was? King's County revenue service guy, his pen pal. He said that Duncan called his former roommates a week earlier and the call was from Northern California. Which is, he's not allowed to go to Northern California. No. August 26, 1997.

So they go to look for him where he's supposed to be and they can't find him. He's not there. He's, yeah, he's run off with that girl's car. He's taken off. So on August 26, 1997, an FBI task force heads to his half sister's house in Kansas City, Missouri they knock on the door and he answers it. Oh Joey dunks Joey Joey the jet Joey the jet you just open

Joey the jet come on man, Joey jazzy jet the jet So the car Joseph you open the door just put your hands out to be cuffed right like what do you even do I'm not sure what you're talking about So yeah, he answered the door. He's arrested sent back to prison. So now he's reprisioned again, so rehomed. Now enter Dr. Richard Waxman. Dicky Wax, I like to call him. Dick Wax. Dick Wax.

So Dr. Dick Wax over here. Why would they do that to him? All right. You had to be a doctor at that point. You couldn't be a normal person. You needed to replace your first name with the word doctor so people would not put the dick in there, I'm telling you. So he, this is fucking amazing.

He meets, Dr. Richard Waxman meets Joey the Jet Dunk Dunk at either, they don't know which one, either a coffee shop or a gay bar One of the two they don't remember. I mean those are very different places 97 that's the same place Only Starbucks is really Running mainstream yet, but one is closed at like 2 in the afternoon And then the other yeah doesn't open till. Doesn't open till two in the afternoon.

It makes no sense. Maybe it's a coffee shop till it's a gay bar. Who knows? Oh no, so this was while Duncan was out on parole. He was in San Francisco they met. So this guy, Dr. Dickie Wax, hires an attorney for old Dunkie the Jet here. Okay.

So Dr. Dick tells Duncan's parole officer that he met Duncan in San Francisco and that Duncan visited Waxman at his home in Fargo, North Dakota before he was arrested in Kansas city. So he went down there and then he ended up in Kansas city after that. In late September, according to Duncan's department of corrections, computer log, his parole officer got a call from Dr. Richard Waxman, who told her that he'd met Duncan in San Francisco at a coffee house.

Waxman felt that Duncan was honest and sincere, he told the parole officer. Review board chairwoman Catherine Bale met with Waxman and then wrote in a memo that the doctor feels that he can help Joe and His wife Joe and his wife Dr. Waxman support is in support of his efforts. He stated that Joseph is bisexual at that point. Yeah. Yeah, I mean what? Everything sexual. Yeah Waxman asked the state to parole Duncan To dr. Dickey's home in North Dakota where he lives with his wife and his eight and eleven year old kids Yeah

The parole board rejected the proposal and said that they, quote, wouldn't expose his children to that kind of risk. Yeah, just because you're all confident that the guy's fine. We're going to be the parent that you should be. Holy shit. What's your problem? So his parole was revoked on December 12th, 1997 during a hearing at the King County Jail, and they reinstate the remainder of his prison sentence with time off for good behavior as well while he's in prison.

Okay. In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him. We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world.

And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione. Became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was targeted, premeditated, and meant to sow terror. I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi, produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever is awoking the people to a true issue.

I mean maybe this would be rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our health care system. Listen to law and crimes Luigi exclusively on one degree plus enjoying one degree plus in the one degree app Spotify or Apple podcasts. In the early hours of December 4th 2024 CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This a silent starts firing at him and the suspect he's been

identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. It was meant to so terror is walking the people to a true issue listen to law and crimes Luigi exclusively on one 3 plus enjoying one 3 plus one 3 app Spotify or Apple podcasts. In the early hours of December 4th 2024 CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant starts firing at him

and the suspect he has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. It was meant to sow terror. He's awoking the people to a true issue. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple podcasts. So in 1998, he wanted to go to his, he wanted to be paroled to his mother's home in Tacoma, but that was rejected as well and he's kept in there till July 14th, 2000 when he's finally

released from prison. Okay. Okay. Now, during all of his movements, because he went from San Francisco and ended up in Kansas City, we'll find out later, he made some stops in between there. God damn.

Oh yeah, so Dr. Waxman is here, I guess Duncan accepts Waxman, Dr. Dick's invitation to come to Fargo, where Dr. Dick helped him enroll in computer science classes, classes, did I just say that? Classes. Classes. Now wear glasses.

I'm gonna take computer science classes, that's me. Computer science classes at North Dakota University, God, my fucking mouth is stupid, and worked at a local computer consulting firm called Envy Consulting Inc. So he moved there, he's in NDSU, he's majoring in computer science, twice earning a spot on the Dean's List. This is what I mean. He went from a 1.7 GPA spelling fucking things that shouldn't be spelled certain with an S to being on the

Dean's List. Yeah. You know, it's weird. He's also a member of the Phi Kappa Phi Honor Society as well. Okay. He's really figuring it out late in life, but he's figuring it out. He's figuring it out. He has an online resume at that point, which is said to be a mix of fact and fiction as all resumes are

So a resume it's all um it's something yeah, he said he enjoyed karate skiing and scuba diving Okay, he said I hope to relocate to a more southern state possibly the Kansas City region so to a more southern state, possibly the Kansas City region. So, yeah, his resume said he held jobs in Spokane, Edmonds, Washington, and Colorado during the 90s. He does register as a sex offender with the Fargo Police Department when he moves to town. He's classified as a level three offender, which is considered a very high risk for reoffending.

Keep an eye on this guy is what there's only three levels there's three levels some states have more Mississippi has nine levels I found out no I'd be in a level nine sex offender that's clear the streets when he walks down it just clear the fucking streets penis is out it's rock hard and he's ready to assault you all the time what what do you got to do? I don't know. What's a level seven? If you're a seven, you're a nine.

If you're fucking three, you're a nine. If you're two, you're a nine. Any sex offender is a nine to me. It's all nine. But anything over three is incredibly fucking dangerous. It's scary. That man's scheming all the time to get in some child's bowl. Every one of them.

Holy shit. Or adult too. He doesn't really care. He's a sex offender. It's not underage. It's just sex offenses. Boys, girls, men, women, doesn't matter. Whatever's around.

Nine is hide your dog, right? Nine is hide everything. Hide your cockatiel. He's going to go after it. He'll figure a way to fuck that thing. Nothing with a hole in it around this man. No, Jesus Christ, no donuts. You're not allowed to buy donuts in front of this man.

He will fuck them. He'll put a few of them together and fuck them. He'll fuck the munchkins, the donuts. Yeah. So, I guess the Fargo police captain said that Duncan followed the rules for sex offenders and said, as far as we know, he was more or less a model. So, cause he registered basically.

Cause he said, I'm here. I'm here. So Saturday, July 3rd, 2004 here. Okay. He lives in Fargo. Detroit Lakes is about 45 minutes east of Fargo, and is a popular spot for people in Fargo to go hang out, right? So in the middle of the day on July 3rd, 4th of July weekend, it's a Saturday, 4th is on a Sunday, yeah, one of the busiest weekends of the year, obviously,

at a lakeside place. Duncan, apparently, he was spotted with a video camera lurking near the playground equipment. Stalking children and videotaping them essentially here. Making bait movies. Yeah, and this isn't now where someone could have a phone and look like they're texting while they film people or something like that. He's got a fucking camera on his shoulder.

This is like a. He had a Velcro to his hand. It's got a VHS tape in it spinning like this is crazy. So wow, or a smaller one, the DVs at that point probably. But either way, it's still Velcro to his fucking hand. He's holding some shit there. So he ended up doing that. At some point he called over a six year old boy

and the boy's eight year old friend. Okay. Duncan pulled down the shorts of the younger boy and touched him, but the older boy, he was unable to pull his shorts down. Okay. So the boys, who are healthy, went and alerted the adults immediately that some guy just assaulted them

Again, you know, he's a he picks People who tell right away. Yeah police arrived at the scene after he fled in his red Pontiac grand am The boys described him Described a stranger who had molested them and said that he had a noticeable bump on his upper lip Which touched his bottom lip when he spoke I Don't know what that means like Either that or I'm all they meet do they mean his his like lips come to a point Oh, there's that I mean cuz you know some people's lips do that like a weird on the top lip

I don't know so either way based on the description as well as another witnesses account of the car being parked near the playground the Detroit Lakes police put together a photo lineup of six men from a database of Minnesota predatory criminals so Minnesota and North Dakota criminals so the six-year-old boy immediately picked Duncan out of the lineup. Obviously. With the big thing on his lip. There's the guy and the fucking handicam in his hand. So one count of second-degree sexual criminal sexual misconduct and one count of attempted

second-degree criminal sexual conduct were filed against him. No warrant was issued for his arrest rather a summons to appear in court listing the charges was mailed to his home in Fargo. What? That is a very exodasical approach to child abuse of a sexual nature. That dude that's what they do. That's what they do when you get... photo radar tickets that's what they do. That's what they do when you get caught with. Photo radar tickets, that's what they do. That's what they do when you get caught with weed in Florida. They go, it's technically an arrest,

but we're not gonna arrest you. We're gonna send this thing to your house and you go to the court date and whatever. He tried to fucking molest two boys. We'll notify you through the mail about your touching of a naked child's penis. Holy shit, so he appeared April 5th. That's ballsy.

Yeah, the judge set his bail at $15,000 and ordered him to return for another hearing. By the way, that was on April 5th in Becker County, Minnesota. The Dr. Dick there paid his bail, by the way, 15 grand, and he ends up disappearing, takes off. Dr. Dick there paid his bail by the way 15 grand and He ends up disappearing takes off

Yep gone out of that area anyway. He doesn't go back to court in Minnesota and just goes back to Fargo. He's just done Yep, so a year later. He's hoping to graduate from NDSU and land a job and all that kind of shit here But we don't know if that's gonna happen. He ends up being arrested on April 5th 2005 here. I guess the another guy had helped him a Joseph Crary who was a real estate developer and an investor and He cut Duncan a personal check worth $15,000 to cover his bail, but I think the other guy gave him money too. I think he got it from two places.

By his own account at the time Duncan was living paycheck to paycheck. They said he used the money to get out of jail and spent $731.99 at Walmart for a radar detector, a car battery, a small camcorder with tapes, and night vision goggles. What? That's all for, I'm sure, real non-nefarious purposes, right, that's just for he's gonna hunt at night maybe, that's all it is. Who the hell, anyone that has night vision goggles,

you're up to no good. You're up to no good. Throw them away, you fucking weirdo. What do you need to see in the dark that much for? Go in your house. Go in the house, go watcho. What do you need to see in the dark that much for? Go in your house. Go in the house. Go watch TV. Yeah, get inside.

Go fuck your wife and go to bed. Get inside, dummy. Oh, man. So with a total of $21,500 given to him in April 2005, minus the bail money and purchases at Walmart, he still had over $5,700 left over. So the guy who gave him the money believed Duncan was not a flight risk. He was working on a college degree, holding down two jobs, and also just returned from a trip to Kansas City after receiving the court summons in Detroit Lakes.

This Crary guy, the investor real estate guy, said he met Duncan while biking. Hi, how you doing, biker? Are you a registered sex offender? Let me help you. You talked to another person on a bicycle? Why? And didn't stop once he got to the registered sex offender part? Yeah, he's like, what is that, a Schwinn?

It is, I suck kids' dicks. Get out of here. Get out of here. Yeah, I think this is the reason you don't talk to people on bikes Guess what we have biking and calming and I no longer ride bikes This guy said we both enjoyed biking on the bike trails in Fargo when we became acquaintances in My contact with him. I saw him like many others apparently did he was polite soft-spoken and seems sincere in turning his life around So he knew about his shit knew about it Many others apparently did. He was polite, soft-spoken, and seemed sincere in turning his life around.

So he knew about his shit. Knew about it. Okay, May 5th, 2005. Days before graduation, by the way. Police visit his Fargo apartment with a search warrant. Okay. Because he had left the area and not come back from that last charge. So they said that the Fargo police said they don't believe Duncan was ever at his apartment again

after that day of May 5th. After nearly two weeks of not hearing from Duncan, the officer went to Duncan's home and found nobody home. They also discovered that he was absent from his classes at North Dakota State as well. So they also said that he was absent from his classes at North Dakota State as well. So They also said that he rented a Jeep Laredo from Enterprise rent-a-car but didn't return it So they issued a they issued its for stolen. So

Yeah, police had information that he might have headed west from Fargo. Yeah May 11th, 2005. Okay, this is, he has a blog here called The Fifth Nail. That's what it's called. What is that? It was devoted to basically, at first it was, it was basically devoted to opposing the sexual, the sex offender registry system. I'm sure he does. Yeah, he doesn't like that a lot

Oh my god, I'm gonna write a blog that supports it vehemently Yeah, he really does. That's how he's gonna take this out to in a blog I really think you're treating me bad later on he will compare Oh treatment of pedophiles to treatment of the Jews by Nazis. Difference is you fuck kids. They just were existing, that's the difference. All they were doing was existing. You're fucking kids.

There's a little difference there. People wanna gas me. Well, can you, what? Yes. You are the thing, because it's all, and this is all based on actions, which is how you're supposed to judge somebody. The content of their character, you're a kid fucker. The content of your character is a mess.

They just wear a tiny hat. There's no comparison here, man. Not the same. I don't like those little fucking, I don't like those little brainy sideburns. It's not a fucking braided side. That's not, no. That useless man apron. I don't like it. Well, at least he's not fucking children.

Not fucking kids. So he wrote on the May 11th blog entry, I am scared, alone, and confused. And my reaction is to strike out toward the perceived source of my misery society. My intent is to harm society as much as I can then die." Holy. Put that on blogspot.com? He put that on fifthnail.com. A blog appears on another website with a similar name, fifthnail.blogspot.com and contains postings that are very similar, even identical in some instances,

to material that he had. So he's doing the same, he's just putting it on two places. Or he's having a friend copy and paste something, yeah. Yeah, the blog mentions his 18-year stint in prison and his fears that university colleagues and other friends would shun him if they knew his secret. The blog's author said he cherished his fresh start and his acquaintance with an array of really great people, from professors and co-workers to landlords and neighbors.

He said, I tried to make it work, but the problem was those demons. They kept reminding me that if my new friends knew about them, then so much for their friendship. The last entry here was written on May 13th, saying, quote, I wish I could be more honest about my feelings, but those demons made sure I'd never be able to do that. I might not know if it matters, but just in case, I'm working on an encrypted journal

that's hundreds of times more frank than this blog could ever be. That's why I keep it encrypted I figure 30 years or more in 30 years or more we will have the technology to easily crack the encryption currently very uncrackable and Then the world will know who I really was and what I really did and what I really thought Whoa? Whoa is right and it's wild what he really thinks and

Crypted it locked it away. I don't know he said at all May 13 2005 police talked to dr. Dick here They talked to him and they report that dr. Dick believes that Duncan is not homicidal Although he quote although he has in the past talked about suicide and what it would be like to drown Okay, so that's what we know May 17th 2005 Wolf Lodge, Idaho now Wolf Lodge is it's not really a town

It's kind of a there's a wolf Lodge Bay resort type thing It is well outside Coeur d'Alene. Like it's, you know, on a road going to nowhere. Yeah. But it is still technically Coeur d'Alene address, even though it's nowhere near Coeur d'Alene. And then there's Kellogg beyond that goes. Okay. Okay. Now this is a 1212525 frontage road near Wolf Bay Lodge or Wolf Lodge Bay. This is a house here and it's I looked up the street view of it. It's on a frontage road near Wolf Lodge Bay. This is a house here. I looked up the street view of it. It's on a frontage road with a fucking highway right there. Interesting.

Now, people in this house are Brenda K. Groene, G-R-O-E-N-E, 40 years old, Brenda is. She's been divorced for a couple years. Her and the ex, though though still parent the kids together and have a mature adult relationship as far as co-parenting and things. Yeah, she's got a fiance too that lives with her here named Edward McKenzie, he's 37.

Now Brenda has five kids, but two of them are older, I believe, or not. Two of them are not here, They're a little bit older. And I don't know if they're with their dad or what's going on, but they're not here. The kids that are in the house and living here are Slade Groany, he is 13, son, Dylan Groany with a Y, Dylan with a Y,

he's nine years old, a son, and Shasta Groany, who is eight years old, and that's her daughter. So that's the five of them living in this house, okay? Shasta would say back then about Dylan, me and Dylan were only 16 months apart, we were very, very, very close. We loved riding bikes or being on a scooter

or going to the store with my mom. Me and him were just very attached to my mom. I think that's why me and him were so close, our shared love of our mom. You know, your brother and sister, they're two years, a year apart though. So she said that Slade, the 13 year old, her and Shasta, him and Shasta used to butt heads a lot.

Shasta said he always wanted to do things with our older brothers, and when we wanted him to do stuff with us I would remember I Remember a lot about it So he said she said I wish we were closer So and about mark, I guess mark was really nice to the kids Shasta told people back then that he would take the kids to go craw dadding, you know looking for craw dads and the creek there

Yeah, and fishing and stuff like that. Also, the kids all said, he made it a point to tell the kids, you know I'm not your dad, I'm not gonna step in and try to take your dad's place, but I'm here for whatever you need me for. That's a good guy. That's exactly what a step-parent should be. Look, you need support, I'm here for as much

as you need me for. I'm not gonna try to take over. He said, I love your mom and I'm here to support you guys as a family and hopefully be a part of it, which is exactly how you should be. So they seem like a real nice family. On May 17th, 2005, they weren't answering phones or doors or anything like that.

Somebody called the cops to come check on them. Okay, welfare visit. Welfare visit. The deputies arrive and when they come in the door, they find three people face down on the floor. Really? They find Brenda partially in the kitchen and partially in the living room, dead on the floor.

They find Slade, 13 years old, at her feet, dead on the floor. They find Slade, 13 years old, at her feet, dead on the floor. And they find Mark in the living room dead on the floor. No sign of Shasta or Dylan. They're not in the house. Okay. So they're hoping that they spent the night at somebody's house and went to a friend's house

or some shit. Oh, sure. Yeah, fingers, maybe they're with their dad, whatever, but three people. The forensic examination shows that all three were killed with a claw hammer. Oh, brutal fucking brutal, brutal. And also they're duct taped and tied up. These people, it's, it's horrifying. They learned it to be a fat max claw hammer oh those are big yeah that's a big fucking hammer man that's a brutal part on the back of a fat max doesn't hook it's no great

so it's like a stabbing thing those yeah horrifying it's a crazy hammer he went around someone went around killing people with that yeah a lot too slayed the 13 year old was struck 14 times with that hammer Mark was struck seven times with the hammer and Brenda was struck three times with the hammer hmm interesting which Personally if I'm looking at this I go okay. You're going after mark first because he's the threat He's a you know what I mean so you're gonna hit him so it took seven times to put him down

then you're gonna go after mom because if you do anything to the kids mom's gonna freak out took her a little less three times and then he had his time to do whatever he wanted with Slade whoever this was and beat them as much as he felt like it. What if he beat up Mark and then Slade and then hit her and then went back that's even worse right? You don't know, she could've bang, bang, bang. Who the fuck knows? But he had them all, apparently whoever did this had them all tied up.

So there was no reason. It was what they felt like doing, whenever they felt like doing it. Now, they look for Dylan and Shasta. They're not at any friend's house, they're not at dad's house, they're not at grandma's house, they're nowhere to be fucking found. They were home, that's where they were, and they're not at any friend's house, they're not at dad's house, they're not at grandma's house, they're nowhere to be fucking found. Oh no. They were home, that's where they were,

and they're not in the house. So this is. They were just out there with somebody. An eight year old and a nine year old, I mean all hands on deck, nationwide, holy shit, put up billboards, search here, because obviously someone who has murdered their whole family has taken them, so that's not good

They're not we have the benefit of a pre story here, so we have a pretty good idea Yes, they have no fucking clue. They don't know any of this none of this shit. No. It's not a fucking clue Hey guys search blogspot quick Anybody just saying anything maybe just look The whole blog blog spot.com. So the way it looked basically the way they put it together is that it looked like they were kind of corralled into the living room and everybody was tied up including they think Shasta and Dylan as well and they believe that the mother was probably,

the way it looked, they believe that the mother was probably up first and the mother went, was instructed to get the kids and bring them into the living room and bring everybody into one room and cooperate, nothing will happen to them type of thing. Apparently, that's what they think happened here. Later on, they'll find out that basically,

mom said someone's in the house, and then they went into the living room, and when they were entered into the living room, they saw a man wearing black gloves and holding a gun. Oh, boy. They tied the mother up with nylon zip ties and did the same to Edward and then to Slade and then Shasta and Dylan were removed from the house and placed outside on the lawn for a while they think.

Now there is multiple thumping sounds that people heard coming from inside the house and They're the Apparently they think that slayed Was injured and was staggering around. I don't know if there's a blood trail or something like that So yeah, this is fucking horrifying then they figure that he took whoever this was Whoever this was took the kids and put them in a car and took off. So, yeah, a neighbor said, this freaks everybody out, as you can imagine. Yeah.

Everybody's freaked out. A neighbor said she was a guest and said, quote, it was like the boogeyman was coming to your house. Even with everyone there, they were absolutely not safe. I thought this couldn't be just one person doing this. To be able to round everybody up. Yeah, that's hard. Deal with five people and all that,

kill everybody efficiently, and then take the kids, that's a lot. That's a very controlled person that has something on their mind. Or multiple people. Yeah, oh right, right, right. Yeah, that's what she's saying. And she's like, this couldn't be one person doing this. That's too much to do so everyone's freaked out the family goes on America's most wanted and

Pleads for the children safe returns. I mean they're they want the kids back They're like what the fuck here, and it does obviously we from our experience like what the fuck here? And it doesn't, obviously we, from our experience, doing this, and I'm sure the police experience too, the chances that they're getting any of these kids back are not great. Especially if they- Unless it's like a teacher that is in love with a child.

Yeah, yeah. They want a future with this. There's no, this person took two children, they don't care about a future with this. But if the teacher killed the kid's whole family, you never know at that point. That could be anything. The sheriff of the one county in Idaho said it's probably the most horrendous case we've ever seen. It's they said yeah it's crazy fucking crazy. It's

worst-case scenario. Wow they said it could this it's a lightning strike case I mean it could have happened anywhere, but it just happened to happen here We've had murder cases before but not this serial killer kill the family kidnapped the children cases And I spent 38 years in the sheriff's department. He said Doesn't exist Lightning strike situation. It's just wherever this fucking guy is Yes happens. It's fucked up. So July 1st 2005. Dr. Dick calls the cops He calls the cops saying that on July 1st that day Duncan called him

So Duncan's on the run as a fugitive and he said Duncan called me The cop said quote then he stated that he just began yelling at him. So Dr. Dick said he just was yelling at me. He stated that after yelling at him for some time, Joe just suddenly hung up. So he called to rant and rave and then all jet dunks hangs it up. Now Waxman said he told the cop that he was angry at Duncan because he took off and he has a big investment in him. He says, I've given this guy money, I've helped him.

He said, it did appear though that while talking with Dr. Waxman that he was looking for information from me about his friend, Mr. Duncan, but I was unwilling or unable to provide any information. So he's thinking this guy was trying to poke around for pieces of the investigation to relay back to Duncan to help him.

So that's July 1st, by the way. May, think about how long this has been. This is three weeks. Three, it was the beginning of May. May 11th, right? It's been 42 days, I think, or something like that. Oh, and June! Oh my God! Yeah think or something like that. Oh and June! Oh my god! Yeah we're in July. Oh my god! No sign of the kids. This is insane. July 2nd, 2005.

Where the fuck is... 2am. How were they hidden this this whole time. This is crazy July 2nd 2005 2 a.m. A Denny's restaurant in Coeur d'Alene That's what's open at 2 a.m. Yeah at about 1 30 in the morning Shasta Groney was spotted at the Denny's uh-huh the little girl who's missing whose face is everywhere She entered the Denny's restaurant with a 42 year old man identified as Joseph Edward Duncan III. Is that right? Oh yeah. An employee and a customer recognized her from the TV. A customer said, that little girl over there, is that the good mother? Is that the kids from fucking America's Most Wanted? Yes, and they were like holy shit. So they had one of the kitchen employees call the cops And they were starting to leave Joseph and Shasta so a quick-thinking waitress said hey little girl you want a milkshake?

And she said I'd like thinking or is that like raising all the suspicion in the world no She was like you're so cute, and it's empty she goes. I'm gonna make you a milkshake Oh, she said it like that like you know, just, I love kids. Stick around a while. I'm going to make you a free milkshake. And so she went and made a milkshake and gave it to the girl while the cops are coming. OK.

And Coeur d'Alene police arrived, and they confirmed Shasta's identity and took Duncan into char, into custody on charges of kidnapping on a fugitive warrant. Wow. By the way, Dylan is nowhere to be found here. Yeah, that's the other question. Where's Dylan? What the fuck?

There's only two people eating? So, yeah, that's it. There's only two in the restaurant. So Shasta was taken to the police station where she was reunited with her father, Steve. She underwent tests at a hospital, was interviewed by authorities. They gave her cartoons to watch, just try to, you know,

whatever. The dad told Geraldo Rivera she seemed to be in pretty good spirits. Wow. Shasta's uncle, Bob Price, said that she may remain in the hospital for several more days. They said, as we can imagine, her psyche is pretty fragile at this point.

She's been almost two months of being kidnapped. In a brief statement, Steve Groany, the dad, said he wasn't sure how long Shasta would be in the hospital. He did say that her condition is better than the family expected. He said, quote, one of the doctors said, she's a tough gal, she's a scrapper,

she's got a lot of groany in her because they knew the family. God knows what she's been through. We'll find out. Shortly after Duncan's arrest here, police in Fargo went to his home and put crime scene tape all around it to wait for a judge to sign a search warrant

to search his home in Fargo. His two cats were left behind. The neighbor said she's been caring for the cats, and then after a while she just took them to a shelter, she didn't know what to do with them anymore, she figured he wasn't coming back because it was two months already. She said that she considered Duncan a friend

and that he never caused any trouble in the neighborhood. She said there were kids all over this neighborhood, never did anything. People who lived in Duncan's neighborhood for 10 years said they heard that a sex offender moved across the alley but they never talked to Duncan. They said that other residents around here watched everything unfold on TV.

An elderly woman said, I've never seen him in this neighborhood but I'm sure hearing about him now on cable news. So she only lived two houses away too. So why didn't they catch him earlier? Why indeed? They said more than 100 tips came in to the Sheriff's Office tip line,

so they were doing that following publications of Duncan, pictures of Duncan and the red jeep in his possession at the time of his arrest here. They said, the Larray, he still has it. He put stolen Missouri license plates on it. That's how he And he has a radar detector what and remember he bought it at Walmart when he got out getting caught No And they said that he was able to drive around in a stolen vehicle

Because he probably the one main sheriff said probably because he obeyed traffic laws He said police officers look for the unusual But he didn't stand out as unusual look like a 40 year old guy driving a Jeep, the speed limit between the lines. So no one gave a shit, no one looked twice at him. After his arrest, Oprah Winfrey invited the family on the Oprah show where she announced that she would give $100,000 to people

who helped catch sex offenders. Oprah. She launched the Oprah's Child Predator Watchlist and viewers helped nab four sex offenders. Oprah. She launched the Oprah's Child Predator Watch List and viewers helped nab four sex offenders since that started, apparently. Okay, absconders, I imagine. I mean, there's one thing. I think so, yeah, not just put them on TV.

Yeah, don't send Oprah's audience out as vigilantes. That's fucking crazy. No, no, no, that's insane. Jesus. Winfrey told her viewers that Shasta's story was the last straw and said, we can change the laws so that when in this country, a child is molested the first time that person's put behind bars and never let out, never let out. I'm so sick of it. That's

a hard one to do life without parole for a 17 year old for a 17 year old who yeah, and that's the other thing too. We're talking about You know obviously yeah fucking there are different levels of monsters, but yeah, right yeah, obviously this guy's the worst-case scenario Yeah, never let this guy out, but yeah, I'm talking if it's children as opposed to adults as right and they also compartmentalized sex offender as a Blanket statement, but there are levels of it, actually, a drunk guy pissing in an alley, I'm not afraid that guy's raping people. No, no, no. Not yet.

Yeah, he probably just, well, when you walk up, does he kind of turn his dick a little bit? If he turns away from you, he's- Did he shake it at anybody? Yeah, if he turns it away from you, he's fine. If he's hiding in a fucking walk-up, then he probably doesn't want you to see it. Exactly.

He's probably embarrassed. So the crazy part of this is these people at Denny's were not the first time they've been seen out there. They've been around. Some workers at local businesses have been interviewed by investigators and some thought they remembered seeing Duncan. Jackie Allen, a gas station and convenience store clerk

in St. Regis, told the Associated Press that she recognized Duncan after seeing his photo and telling law enforcement that he had come into the store several weeks after the disappearance of the child. She said that Duncan bought gas and a 12-pack of beer and asked her about local campgrounds. She said that neither Shasta nor Dylan were with him in the store and she never saw his vehicle. So she's, I just remember the guy. She said he said he had kids and he was married. He was a very friendly guy, very nice, very polite. He didn't put a scare to me at all. Um, so other sightings of his Jeep in St.

Regis as well, uh, here, one woman, this is the same woman by the way, the Jackie Allen, she said, it's been crazy. I mean, if I would have known, I probably could have saved those babies. So Joe Cantrell, who owns a bait and tackle shop in St. Regis said him and his son thought at first they had seen Duncan, but a search of surveillance material

and business transactions proved not to be so somebody else here The owner of a st. Regis convenience store harassed not to be identified said some of her employees thought they saw the man as well Then there is video from a Kanoko station. Yeah Kanaka, whatever it is Ted Bemis installed security cameras there only three months prior to this happening. And apparently here it's eight cameras and they said that the cameras since produced only since have produced the only video footage of eight year old Shasta traveling with Joseph Duncan.

They were videotaped entering the convenience store at 8.20 p.m. They said that Shaped entering the convenience store at 820 p.m. They said that Shasta's body language on the tape tells a story as she roams around the store aisles she walks slowly with her arms crossed. They said she's not looking at the shit on the shelves. They said she's looking up at people in the store. Every customer in the store she's looking right into their faces. She's not looking at the store screaming help me without a word Walking around saying please recognize me. Yeah, do you see this place?

You see you've seen it on shit cuz she's driven around she's seen her face on billboards I mean they were everywhere man him and her and Dylan's face were everywhere Walsh talked about me. Oh The the owner Oprah's been talking the owner of the Cameron Street gas station business said she's probably scared to death she had all the chance in the world to talk to this people and she didn't yeah she could have said help me help me help me and I don't think she knows she knows what he did to her family exactly she's terrified of this man needs you to take the initiative oh my god she said that she looked like the sheriff said she looked like she was wanting to be

recognized by the people So she's walking around stopping looking stopping in front of people and looking at them in the face eight year old How often eight year olds do that? You know what I mean? So holy shit. They said that she reported the incident after reading about the rescue And she told her boss that those people were in here So then they reviewed the surveillance tape and found the footage of the two of them. The tapes were sold to a Spokane television station for $275, which they said they will donate to Shasta. You should have asked for more.

Yeah, you should have probably given it to the cops more first. As they look, they said they were amazed at how, you know, this is in Kellogg, Idaho, and they're like, they were amazed that this could be, this is the fucking crux of a nationwide hunt for kids. This is two kids and they're in my little store at my little town. He said, it just gives you the willies to think some psycho is here in our town. The Willys. Oh man. So they were in the store for 10 minutes, by the way, and they said that Duncan acted like

he didn't have a care in the world. Didn't look suspicious, didn't look like, you know, holding onto the Shasta all tight. Brightening. Mm-hmm. They said he was walking around. You could see him kind of watching her. One time in the store, she's wandering up and down the aisles

and he kind of loses track of her, and you can see him looking around in kind of watching her. One time in the store she's wandering up and down the aisles and he kind of loses track of her and you can see him looking around in a panic for her. But then he picks up the local newspaper and he's standing there thumbing through the local newspaper. It's trying to act casual at that point. They said the FBI ended up getting a tape of this and all that kind of thing. The store owner did interviews with Good Morning America, the Today Show, and Dateline. He said, you can't believe the calls we've had.

Oh my God. So apparently he's gonna be charged with three charges at this point, attempted criminal sexual contact and two counts of second degree illegal sexual contact. Each carries a potential maximum of 25 years in prison, but they haven't charged him with any murder yet. I don't know if they think he just picked chest up off the side of the road or something somewhere, but the main

question right now is where the fuck is Dylan? Where the fuck is he? Where is this poor nine-year-old kid? So investigators were sorting through evidence trying to figure this out, but they reiterated at that point They said they didn't expect to find him alive Obviously, yeah, they said based on investigate on an information investigators were able to put together In totality leaves them to believe that Dylan is dead That's why we're working so diligently right now to verify that or to find out it's not true. They said, frankly, I'd be more than happy

to stand up here and say it's the biggest mistake we ever made, but unfortunately, we don't think it's going to be. Wow, and Steve, the dad, said he's holding out hope that Dylan will be found alive. So Shasta, this poor Shasta man, oh my god, they said that she got enough gifts and toys and cards and well wishes to fill a classroom from people. People were, I mean this poor girl's been through hell, hell on earth.

Classmates and family sent it, the principal came, you know, gave a thing and the whole school had a big deal and They said the staff is overjoyed now, of course, everyone is praying and talking about Dylan So this is this is from Shasta now. This is an interview. She did later on they said do you remember when you were spotted? Do you remember that moment what happened meaning at the Denny's and she said, the cop came up to us and he asked me what my name was, and I remember feeling really scared to say anything. I remember looking at Joseph Duncan, almost like for permission to answer the question,

I was really scared. And they said, did he give you that permission? And Shasta said, when I looked over at him, he kind of nodded his head like, yeah, go ahead. Like, it's over, it's over. I mean, the cops are here, we're not getting out of this. The woman said, do you think he wanted you to be rescued? Yeah.

And Shasta said, sometimes I do think about it, and sometimes I don't know if he would necessarily be that nice to do that for me. But at the same time, I think he brought me to so many public places for a reason. I don't know what was going through his head. Right. Then the interviewer said, what are those next few months like with your dad? He brought me to so many public places for a reason. I don't know what was going through his head Then the interviewer said what are those next few months like with your dad Did you get the help you needed and she said I remember not being in school for a while

I remember not being able to watch TV because my dad wanted to protect me from what was on there He didn't want me to have to see Duncan again. I do remember everyone wanted to love on me and just be there with me I think it was just a time for my family to get back to to have to see Duncan again. I do remember everyone wanting to love on me and just be there with me. I think it was just a time for my family to get back to not normal because things could never be normal after that, but back into a motion of we need to move on with our lives and start somewhere.

Some sort of fucking. Some sort of normalcy. Yeah, some sort of stability that you need as a family and as human beings and people. So they said, did you see a counselor? Did you get to talk about it? She said, I was seeing a counselor that I really, really loved, but that came to an end

when she was telling people outside of our sessions what was going on in our sessions. Oh, what the fuck? Yeah, because she had somebody people were interested in, this poor little girl, so she was telling people about it. That's horrifying. Be a professional, shut your fucking mouth. Wow. I went to another person, and then after that, I was she was telling people about it. That's horrifying. Be a professional, shut your fucking mouth. Wow.

I went to another person and then after that I was so tired of talking about it and I was so tired of having to relive it, I just wanted to focus mainly on what the rest of my life was going to be. I hated looking back on my past. They said, did you get the support you needed looking back? And she said, yeah, I definitely do think that

if it wasn't something that my family could do for me, my family would reach out and other people would step in and help us There wasn't ever a time that I was really ever alone and that made me feel better Just being around other people and feeling that I had some sense of security They said after you were rescued was there a debriefing time, right? And she said yeah the night that they found me they took me to a back room I was sitting on a chair and they were just asking me questions. I remember closing my eyes and saying, I'm thinking, but I was really sleeping.

I was super tired and just exhausted. I really didn't want to answer the questions. I just wanted to sleep. I do remember the entire interview I did with the cops. So they said they looked into a connection. Does Duncan know these people? Does this idiot, how did he pick these people out? And they said that they looked and they said after all the looking into everybody from both sides, quote, I'm sure there's no connection there. He is just a boogeyman.

He saw the kids outside the day, the earlier that day and decided he's gonna go and take those kids. That's what he did, that's what it was. That's fucking insane. Now the Jeep was, like we said, stolen with Missouri plates. A key tag, by the way, was found, for the Jeep was found in May by Rangers at the Bighorn Canyon National Recreation Area in Wyoming.

They found the tag that comes on your rental car there, but not the car. So they knew that he had been in Wyoming at some point. So apparently after he took them, he put them in the Jeep and took them to a campsite. That's where they were. Shasta said that her and Dylan were held by him in rough and extremely dangerous mountain

terrain in the Lolo National Forest. The FBI and Mineral County Sheriff's Office believe Duncan held the siblings at a campsite near St. Regis, Montana, which would make sense because they were seen there multiple times for at least part of the seven weeks. Shasta told the investigators that the kids were taken to at least two campsites in Montana where they were repeatedly molested. Oh God.

Of course, that's what he's doing. What do you think, he's just having burning marshmallows with him? Give me a fucking break. Holy shit, six weeks she was gone. That is horrifying. What he did was he terrified them. He kidnapped them and basically told them

that he has killed other kids in Washington and California. So if you don't cooperate, I'm gonna kill you too. I have no problem killing kids, he told them. So Shasta said that Duncan told her about the crimes and then showed her stories about dead people on his laptop that he said I killed these people so she believed it. Now his bond is set at two million dollars. Obviously.

Yeah. Is that I don't think it is. So I don't think he has friends that have two million to give him 15 grand maybe. So then finally July July 4th, 2005 here, this is two days after Shasta's found investigators, um, find a makeshift campsite in a remote area of the Lolo national forest near St. Regis, where they find human remains that they believe are Dylan. Uh,

their remains are sent to the FBI lab in Quantico for DNA testing. Inspired by the hit, Wondery podcast, Against the Odds, comes the gripping guidebook, How to Survive Against the Odds, Tales and Tips for Animal Attacks and Natural Disasters. This might just be the most important book you'll ever read.

Go inside life or death situations where everyday people survived nature's most extreme scenarios. And learn how you can too. In these tales, you'll hear about the grit, willpower, and know-how needed to endure shipwrecks, alligator attacks, earthquakes, and more. You'll learn from experts, including top doctors, about what happens to your body and mind in life-threatening situations. Plus, important tips on what to do, and equally important, what NOT to do when faced with a situation that is truly against the odds. Go to SurvivalGuidebook.com to pre-order How to Survive Against the Odds Today and get the perfect gift in time for graduation and Father's Day. Last year, long crime brought you the trial that captivated the nation.

She's accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe with her car. Karen Reed is arrested and charged with second degree murder. The six week trial resulted in anything but resolution. We continue to find ourselves at an impasse. I'm declaring a mistrial in this case. But now the trial resulted in anything but resolution. But now the case is back in the spotlight. And one question still lingers. Did Karen Reed kill John O'Keefe? I'm Kristin Thorn, investigative reporter with Law and Crime and host of the podcast

Karen, The Retrial. This isn't just a retrial, it's a second chance at the truth. I have nothing to hide. My life is in the balance and it shouldn't be. I just want people to go back to who the victim is in this. It's not her. Listen to episodes of Karen, The Retrial, and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Uh, where they will be positively identified as Dylan.

How old are those? Wow. Fuck, man. When did he do that? How long have they sat in Montana? In the fucking- Wyoming? Where is it? Montana. St. Regis, Montana. He was shot at point-blank range by holding a Sawed off 12-gauge shotgun to his head. Oh

For heaven's sake a nine-year-old Shasta saw or heard that yep. She's gonna explain it here Shasta Told investigators that Duncan insisted that Dylan's death was an accident that's what she said now initially Shasta was standing on the other side of Duncan's jeep when she heard a loud boom then she ran over to the other side of the jeep and saw Dylan lying on the ground screaming Duncan was digging through a clear path plastic box looking for beer he said when a shotgun that was also kept in the box went off hitting Dylan in the stomach. Okay so he said it's an accident I shot him by accident Shasta said that she then saw Duncan put the

shotgun to Dylan's head and pull the trigger but it didn't fire. Missed fired. Yeah. When Dylan begged Duncan not to kill him Duncan reloaded the gun. Oh Christ and Put it back to his head and shot him According to Shasta Duncan then started crying and Told her that he only killed him to put him out of his misery because he had shot him in the stomach So he felt bad Shasta reported that Duncan nearly killed her and in the days following the killing of Dylan She said that he gave her the choice to be killed by either strangulation or with a gun an eight-year-old

So what which one do you want? She chose strangulation She's afraid of guns. Yeah Good loud. You know what I mean kids She doesn't understand. She's afraid of guns. Yeah Good loud, you know what I mean kids She doesn't understand. She's eight Duncan proceeded to wrap a rope around her neck and pull it causing her to start suffocating She said though she begged she summoned enough breath to beg him to stop and use the nickname jet She said I called him jet cuz that's what he liked to be called, and he immediately stopped.

Oh, boy. That's wild. He then asked her if she would like to meet his mother. Yeah, sure. Okay, great. Is it strangle me, shoot me, or I meet your mother? Let's go meet mom. Sounds good.

To which she responded, yes, and that's when they were driving toward Coeur d'Alene and stopped at the Denny's. They were on their way to go to his mom's house. Is that right? What would his mom do if he shows up with a fucking obviously much nationwide searched missing eight-year-old? Yeah.

What the fuck is going on? If she doesn't say, if she doesn't call the police immediately, what's wrong with her too? Yeah. What the fuck is going on? If she doesn't say, if she doesn't call the police immediately, what's wrong with her too? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. She'd have to be, so. Do you want to meet my mom? This is my new bride, my new, she's nine. I just adopted this kid.

Right. I found her, like what do you say? It's a kid. Was he looking for a way out? I think he was looking for a way. I don't think he knew what to do at this point. So Dylan, they bury Dylan on what would have been his 10th birthday. Yeah, it was fucking horrifying, man.

That is horrifying. More than 700 people showed up, by the way, for his funeral, because this is I mean, everybody feels like they're kind of a part of this whole thing in this whole area by now. Even the Denny's waitress who recognized Shasta fucking showed up at the service and everything. A lot of people are connected to this shit and they feel connected to it because, I don't know, it's one of those days, if you steal a kid,

the whole community feels like, oh no, that's an assault on everything. On everything, yeah. Everything and everybody, that is, at that point. It's not a personal thing, it's not like you had beef with the eight year old, they sold you a lemon car and now you're pissed off. You just pissed on our whole town.

Yeah. So before leaving his apartment at 810 7th Street in Fargo, Duncan, who's typically very fastidious, left a mess and two cats behind when he left. He also taunted law enforcement with a message on his dining room mirror. He wrote a message saying, sorry you missed me on there. To the cops. Yup.

Investigators seized computer disks with programs he encrypted, a bag of auburn colored human hair, um, okay, a sleeping bag with quote, an adult sized bloody footprint on it, notebooks and more than 21 boxes worth of belongings in the basement of his home, all turned over to the FBI. Now he's gonna be charged with three counts of murder and kidnapping and the attack on the family home. All six carry the death penalty,

all these charges, by the way. You don't have to tell us that you did it. We know you did it. We got it. Federal prosecutors have said they will file charges in the abduction of the children and in Dylan's death as well. So he's gonna get state and federally charged for this.

So now the sex offender levels, they said, okay. They said the problem is that the system is different in every state in Idaho You're either a sex offender or you're not in Washington. There's three levels of sex offender So in Idaho, it's just there's level three doesn't mean anything. Yeah, you're just you either do bad things or you don't yep And in Mississippi, they said there's nine there Fucking crazy They said there needs to be a standardization of all the levels and there needs to be an ability

to do civil commitments so those people aren't out there hurting anyone else. There has to be some standardization. Which makes sense. They said that would have made it more difficult for him to slip through the system. He said, the one guy said, I think it would have been harder.

I think that if we had standardization, we would all understand what the levels mean and those he demonstrated as level three offender, he would have been civilly committed. He wasn't even on the radar. We didn't know about Joseph Duncan until he was caught here in Coeur d'Alene with Shasta Groany. Not having those high propensity reoffender databases to see who has the high propensity, we followed thousands of leads. We had over 2200 tips given to us, called in, we followed thousands of leads. We had over 2,200 tips given to

us called in faxed and emailed. Not one of them had anything to do with Joseph Duncan, by the way. How do we not nationwide have a, at least a rainbow colored tier system? Something. That's, that's just uniform. We can't have nine levels in Mississippi and three in fucking yeah, it can't be. What's an eight? They'll fuck a hog, but only if it's their own hog?

What is it? That's what I mean. Where does it end? How specific are we? Yeah. I don't get it. You like to rate people, but only if they're like over the age of 72 or something, as like a level eight.

I don't know. I don't like it at all. They said we had to follow up on all those, and that takes an incredible amount of manpower. Some are very far-fetched, but some are also very possible. They said laws related to sex offender registry were created on a national level in 94 and strengthened in 96, requiring all states to conduct community notification of sex offenders. So there's that now July 19th 2005 Duncan is gonna talk to the police

this conversation is gonna last more than three hours and he's gonna reveal some horrifying shit they said anything else you want to tell us about because you're fucked but I mean like you're in so much trouble don't you think about the most trouble you could be in. You were caught with a live child with a story to tell. You are fucked. Couldn't be more trouble. Yup, and that's what it was.

She described how she took them in the house, how he took over the house and everything. It's crazy. He said, well, I have a couple more things to tell you. About 1997 or so, I killed a 10 year old in Riverside, California named Anthony Martinez. Oh, he's got a name. Oh yeah, he said absolutely. He said he hit the kid in the head with a large rock before leaving him naked and wounded in the desert to die. Oh boy.

In July 2005, bloggers noticed similarities between Duncan and the composite sketch in the Martinez case and between Duncan's vehicle and the one Martinez's assailant was driving. And he said, yep, I did that. No problem. The FBI and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children became involved and in turn contacted Riverside. Riverside authorities were able to match the fingerprint taken from Martinez's body to Duncan. They have physical evidence.

And on August 3rd, the Riverside County Sheriff's department announced Duncan's connection with the Martinez case. The FBI then sought a full set of Duncan's fingerprints to compare to a partial thumbprint found at the Martinez scene. and that was a match as well. When two FBI agents came to the jail to take the fingerprints, Duncan told them about the crimes anyway. The agent said, quote, he told me that these two girls were his quote, two girls, not Anthony

Martinez. There's two more. Oh my God. for two girls not Anthony Martinez there's two more oh my god the two girls were his quote first revenge and that it occurred in 1996 when he was out on parole his revenge for going to jail for the first time I think his actual quote was quote sheer unadulterated revenge he was mad for going to jail so he came out and these two young girls, Carmen Cubias, age nine and Sammy Jo White, age 11, they're sisters by the way, in Seattle. They were staying with their mother at the Crest Motel in Seattle and, he said that the mother, Margaret Delaney,

who was their mother, said the two girls left the Crest Motel room, where Delaney and her five children were spending the night to visit a taco time restaurant across the street, and the kids never came back. The mom said she arrived back at the motel room with food shortly after the girls left, and sent their 15-year-old brother to look for them.

When he failed, she searched for an hour and then called the cops. Their skeletal remains were found a year and a half later. And Duncan told the FBI agent here that this was revenge against society for sending him back to jail for a probation violation and he was mad that he had to go to jail for a month because he quote lost a good job So I'll kill two kids that makes sense That is fucking horrifying more on Anthony Martinez here Ernesto Medina Who's Anthony's father said his two sons Anthony Mark, were playing in a neighbor's backyard. And from inside his apartment, he heard children screaming, a man's got Tony, a man's got

Tony, Anthony Martinez. The father ran outside and saw his six-year-old son, Mark, limping toward the apartment, one shoe on and one shoe off, saying the same thing. Dad ran inside and called 911, grabbed his keys and began searching for his son. He would check back at home often to see if the kid came back and then he continued the search for three days and nights for nothing. Never found him. Anthony's body was found 15 days later. Jesus Christ. Yeah, he said that Mark, the other kid who was almost abducted too, said how a tall thin

Caucasian man in a white car pulled into the alley behind a neighbor's house where he was playing with Anthony and his friends. He said he approached the fence and called us forward. We came and he showed us a picture of a cat. He offered us each a dollar if we helped him look for his cat. Three boys agreed to look for the cat. After searching the alley, the kids went back to Duncan and told him they couldn't find the cat.

So the boy said he gave us each a dollar. The next thing I remember is seeing a knife being drawn. And then the next thing after that, he had my brother knife to his head. He was being taken away and put in the car. And that was the last time I ever saw him. Holy shit. So they tried, he tried to grab Mark first and Anthony got between them. That's what happened and uh, and he fell down and the other kid lost his shoe and then Duncan just grabbed Anthony instead. Holy shit. That is fucking horrifying.

So he was trying to grab the younger kid but ended up with a 10 year old. Then a document shows Duncan visited Mexico two days after that murder and a leather bound journal Duncan left in his Fargo apartment where he made references to the murder and wrote a poem entitled An Ode to the Killer. wrote a poem entitled an ode to the killer.

In a letter written from prison later Duncan wrote that the poem, said that he wrote the poem the day after he murdered Anthony. In a journal entry dated three days after Anthony's abduction Duncan wrote, now that I have fulfilled my greatest fantasy, I have no reason to live, no reason left to live except to flesh it out. I have no feelings for my victim and I never will, but I do have feelings. I love life even more after my fight with a true monster, after being a first-hand witness to what others are enraged by merely imagining. Then he said in another entry, he said, I just realized the pain is gone.

The pain is gone. Now there is only fear. I like the fear better. An extensive search for Anthony was conducted and they had 6,000 leads and everything else. In April 19th, 1997, a park ranger found Anthony's body among rocks in Burdo Canyon about two miles north of Dylan roll road Dylan Road in the Indio Hills area

The desert out there. Yeah Drive through country Gas station country is what that is. so why didn't he kill Shasta? Why thing well he had a complicated four gigabyte file of map point coordinates He thought one day someone would find one of the points was named epiphany And they said he said under that this is the spot that I intended to kill Shasta But instead I had the epiphany that changed everything just a second before I was about to deliver the fatal blow with a large rock

so he decided that he had some sort of epiphany that is interesting now right around this time they're going to have a psychologist federal psychologist, talked to him. And this is how, this is what she said about this. Quote, he described that as he was straddling her, he had picked up a large rock, boulder, and held it over his head, and was going to bring it down and smash her head. And in the process of doing that,

had a realization that she and he were the same person. Oh, he's crazy, great! There you go, a 42 year old man and an eight year old girl. We were the same person. Oh, he's crazy, great. There you go, a 42 year old man and eight year old girl. We're the same person. Same guy, yeah, the same people. That we were in the same person, that they were connected and that to do so was wrong and therefore he should not kill her, instead he should turn himself in.

He decided that he would return her to her home and turn herself in. Well, those, which she was on the way there anyway, those were also decisions that he reported having attributed to this epiphany, this realization, and in that regard it is society rather than he who is ultimately responsible for the actions that he engaged in. That's what he says anyway. Now, November 2005, Duncan's brother speaks here. Oh, the young one, yeah. Yeah, Bruce here.

He said, I knew from- He doesn't want to be the same guy. No, we're very different guys. Oh yeah, we didn't even play basketball together when we were kids, nothing. Couldn't be more different. He said, I knew from day one he didn't get caught by accident.

He was in another state. He could have gone 500 different directions, yet he took Shasta back. He's a human being and he does have feelings, but he has this problem apparently that he does not value life. I have no pity for my brother for what he did. I feel sorry for that family. That family, he destroyed it.

He said if he's convicted and it's cut and dry and there's no way around it and there's no question about it, he may be my brother, but there's no excuse. If someone were to do something like that to me or my family members, I'd want to see him dead. The law is the law. We all live under it. And they said, well, what about like mitigating factors like the abuse he suffered as a kid and all that?

And Bruce said, I grew up in that household. I was not abused and never saw any abuse going on all the allegations from the childhood I'd say 99% of them are false Yeah, Bruce Bruce said no, he's got a sister that will say absolutely not everything was real and it was worse than he said Yeah, so and it was worse and it was worse now I don't know if that shit had burned out by the youngest child or not I don't know how that works, but he said that he saw his brother a few times in prison.

He said then when he got out, I met him in Seattle as at his apartment. We hung out for a few times and saw each other on the holidays. He said all that time changed his brother all that time in prison. He said you take a teenager who's confused about his sexuality commits a horrible crime That was inexcusable even for a child and you throw him in prison with a bunch of murderers and rapists He's a hundred pounds soaking wet and he became the target of other prisoners looking for sex The hierarchy all irrelevant nothing to do with whether your brother's a horrible rapist brother irrelevant He fits with them. It's and he was doing this shit before he went to prison So don't want to hear about I see why is he minimizing? What's the deal?

Bruce said he didn't pay much attention to the killings or the urgent requests for information seeking the return of the children That of this kidnapping he said I didn't even know my brother was on the run He didn't tell anyone in the family about the charges on the playground or anything the ones where he's He didn't tell anyone in the family about the charges on the playground or anything the ones where he was Yeah Bruce Duncan she said he's had to change his phone number twice He said that his brother's arrest has split the family He said certain people in the family are in denial other people's are other people are angry and other people are just wanting to ignore It like it never happened. Those are the three reactions families have. So the option's possible, yeah.

Yep. He said, I'd like to sit down with him and talk to him without the FBI listening in because I'm sure he would tell me more than he's gonna tell anyone else. Needless to say, anything I'd find out, I would turn over to the authorities. If he's gonna tell anybody, he's gonna tell me.

I think he is, he wants him to be executed. I think he would. Yeah, well to be executed. I think he would. Yeah. Well, does he want to be executed? No, he, the brother wants him to be executed. He's even telling him all the mitigating things he's talking about are bullshit. He's totally against his brother. So the sister is later going to disagree about the abuse. This is Sherry Cox, the sister. She said that Cox said that her and her four siblings were frequently beaten by their mother while she ranted that men were worthless

and described her mother as a quote, crazy woman who attended church obsessively every day. Every day. Yup, authoritative Christian household, remember she said, those words? Prosecutors didn't question here that Duncan's mother was abusive and they couldn't and nobody else would do it. So Duncan, who's the second youngest of five, the sister said he was passive in the face of the beatings.

The sister said when she was beating on you, if you fought back, it was worse. In his case, he just took what she gave and kind of whimpered off into his bedroom She said their father who was in the military and often deployed was the main subject and target of their mother's derision hated him She this daughter left home at 17. She got the fuck. That's how shitty of a house She got the fuck out of there and said she only saw Duncan once after that, several years later when he was a patient at the mental hospital.

Now, trial is coming up. On the day scheduled for jury selection in the kidnap and murder trial, Duncan stops and says, I plead guilty. He has enough, yeah. I've had enough, I'm pleading guilty. We haven't even started yet, Dunks. We haven't even started, Pickenshires.

So they said, and the reason, well you might go, why the fuck do you give this guy a deal? The reason you give him a deal is because if you don't, a nine-year-old has to go on the stand and describe horrific crimes that have happened to her outside of a doctor's office setting and in front of lots of people. She has to say horrible things in front of strangers

and anybody that wants a ticket to this. Because there's going to be a line out front to watch this. That's fucked up. Even if they take her in judges chambers and all that it's still lawyers and the judge and the clerk and someone typing it all. That's overwhelming for a child, man. So the prosecutor said

this agreement is possible because of a brave little nine-year-old girl who is willing to confront Duncan face to face in the courtroom. She was gonna do it. She's a goddamn hero. No, she's tough, man. She's tough. Just to survive that, she had to be tough. Think about that. Almost two months being held by a fucking psychopath

who just killed your whole family in front of you. With a hammer. With a hammer and a shotgun shotgun and you probably watched him murder your brother. Yeah, he did she said she watched him so It's harf. That's why the cops said they were pretty sure Dylan wasn't gonna be found alive because she told them I watched him shoot my brother So wow, he said guilty six times in court here. Three counts each of first degree murder and first degree kidnapping. Now without a trial, they have to stipulate the facts, okay? Which stipulate means both sides agree

that this is evidence that we're gonna answer, that we don't have to go over it, you know what I mean? Otherwise you have to enter everything formally. So, it recounts how Duncan stalked the family for two days Two days of stalking they had no idea they're going about their lives in their business and he's stalking them He stalked them at random after seeing Shasta playing outside in her bathing suit. Oh got him going Holy fuck man this sick fuck They said Duncan ordered Brenda to tell the kids to cooperate with him and they'd be fine. So she was telling her kids, just do what he says, it's going to be okay.

Trying to protect her children. He then bound Brenda, Mark and Spade with, or Slade with zip ties and duct tape. When they arrived, they found all three face down on the floor and like we described before. They said that Duncan was linked to the killings by numerous items either left at the scene or found in his red stolen rental car the Jeep Cherokee oh My god went to a he said that he brought them to a remote Montana website sexually abusing them for nearly two months I'm sorry campsite yeah

Or I say website oh my god them for nearly two months and threaten campsite. Yeah. Not a website. Oh, did I say website? Oh, my God. We'll call it a remote Montana website. Wow. A remote Montana website. It's on the dark. Very different. You find the remote Montana website. Wow. Where you sexually abused children. Oh, that's horrifying.

What a horrible website. That's the worst website ever. Don't go to that website. So he said that he threatened them with death if they disobeyed him. And he, this is fucking disgusting. Duncan used recording and computer equipment to video tape abusing Dylan.

He fucking filmed himself abusing, yes, there's a tape of this somewhere before shooting him in the head. This is horrifying, man. This guy's a sick fuck. So sentencing comes around and he said, I've thought a lot about what I've wanted to say, Duncan says.

I have nothing to say. You fucking motherfucker say You bastard the judge says Judge says I sure got some shit to say You said yeah may fuck off three consecutive life sentences no parole eat dicks, okay? That's fair. Yeah fuck off So consecutive to you're not going anywhere Yeah, and there's also a federal case pending too. So don't worry about it So we couldn't get death for this because he pled right he bled it made a deal Yeah, he's so afraid to die this fucking pussy that well you will hear about that coming up here

So Steve the father of Shasta and the two poor dead kids, wrote a message on a portable whiteboard thanking the community for his support because he had cancer surgery two weeks before and can't speak, this poor bastard. So he had to, while recovering from cancer surgery, go to the- Scrawl shit out on a whiteboard. Go to the plea hearing of the guy who killed and kidnapped his children

That's poor bastard He said on the whiteboard. He said this is we feel this is the best possible outcome they said it was the best thing for everyone and One family member said especially for Shasta. We did not want to have Shasta take the stand That's what the grandmother said. She said it was difficult even being in the courtroom. It's like sitting in a room with the devil. He is the devil, this guy, I would say. So the county commissioner said, thank heavens, I'm absolutely thrilled.

My thanks go out to all those involved in bringing a resolution. My thoughts are with Shasta and I hope that this can start the healing process. This little girl doesn't have to go through this anymore Well, not so fast So they talk to people on the street. What do you think about the plea bargain? Yeah, man on the street What do you think now? I'm gonna look at it this way. It's what the victims families wanted sure it keeps a poor fucking horrified and Traumatized nine-year-old from having to fun now nine-year-old from having to testify and

Saves taxpayers millions of dollars. No, there is no negative here unless it's I like to see that penalty Unless it's that there is no negatives. You have to be a huge fucking Just absolutely pulsating asshole to not be fine with this deal if this is what the victims family wanted That's what is good. You know One person said I think it's a good idea for the plea bargain. I think she went through enough Another person said I think he basically should have the book thrown at him But anything to keep her off the stand she doesn't need to relive it with everybody watching her I couldn't agree more and it was I mean he he has the book tattooed on his forehead It was thrown very hard very hard right in the middle of says the book on his

It says no parole on his forehead Another person said I think it's great. I hope they fry his ass when they get to the federal end of it Another person said, quote, I guess I'm all for her not testifying and if they can give him the death penalty do. I mean, no, another person. What the fuck are you talking about? Another person. No, it's a deal. That's the point. Lisa Humphrey, a resident of Coeur d'Alene said,

I think he should be put to death, period. There should be no right to a plea. The family wouldn't let her testify anyway. But they would have if there was a trial because without her, they don't have the same case. They would need her. It's called evidence, man. It's called evidence.

You are an ignorant twat, you fucking idiot. That's why I gave her name. You can't just take a potato peeler to people and no and just do it until they die No, in my opinion Lisa Humphrey of Coeur d'Alene is an ignorant twat I hope so Another woman said I think it was a good decision It saves the county some money and lets the federal charges go for the death penalty and another person said they shouldn't plea bargain with him at all he should get the fullest extent of the law which he is.

And then another guy this is the dumbest thing this is by far the dumbest thing anyone could have said quote this is bullshit now we're now we're paying to keep him alive. Do you know what it would have cost for death penalty appeals? You would have been paying a hot, that's what I mean. These people are, some people are so emotional they can't even see, even if it's all about money they can't see, well that saves a lot. They don't even see that. They're like, well now I gotta pay for this.

Well, you gotta pay a lot, you know what it costs to keep someone on death row? About 10 times what it costs for a regular prisoner. Fucking stupid. This is bullshit. This is bullshit. You know what it costs to keep someone on death row about ten times what it costs for a regular prisoner fucking stupid This is bullshit Meanwhile the father of the dead children wants this The father of the dead children scrawled out that he wants this on a whiteboard because he can't talk So the deal allows the state to hold a death sentence trial over Duncan's head in the event that he's not convicted Convicted or sentenced to death in federal court So they have a deal where they can come back and re-sentence him if it doesn't work out like that

So someone's gonna give him the death penalty is what the deal is Some of the people are too ignorant to read that far down in the article though Shasta would not have to testify in that hearing too So they would just stipulate to the facts. Now Duncan must cooperate with county authorities investigating the murder case. They said that Duncan's lawyer, a public defender, met Friday to hammer out the agreements.

He said a lot of hard work went into it, I guess so. And they said that Shasta will Will never be required to relive the events of 2005 in a courtroom Just only in her head for the rest of her fucking life the poor thing However, he admitted that it's likely she'll be called to testify against him in any federal prosecution. That's just by the state They said that the death penalty was never negotiable in this case and also they demanded that Shasta must not have to testify and Duncan needed to agree to three back to back to back life sentences.

Duncan's attorney said, it's been a long, difficult road. I'm happy it's over and said that it was a good deal or I wouldn't have recommended it and said that his client decided to plead guilty because he said his client wanted to save her from testifying. The lawyer said, Mr. Duncan wanted it to be known that he entered into this because he felt

that the community and the families of the victim, and especially Steve and Shasta Groen, he had been through enough and he didn't want to put them through anymore. Also, I'm fucked. Also, I'm real fucked. And wow, that's crazy. They said that He even said that the lawyer said his clients intention was to have returned Shasta to her father

That's why he was driving that direction and the grandmother Shasta's grandmother said I don't care what he has to say, which is yeah I don't care where he was going. I don't care what he has to say. I don't give a shit about that guy I don't care where he was going, I don't care what he has to say. Don't give a shit about that guy. Yeah, so they said already the defense had spent $400,000 on the case and would likely have spent another half a million on the trial, so this saved all of that plus whatever.

Now federal charges are gonna happen, and yeah, grand jury is expected to hear evidence of all of this shit. Duncan with the crime stemming from kidnapping of the children, including the murder of Dylan, sexual abuse of both children, and child exploitation charges. And the prosecutors have received permission

from the Department of Justice to seek the death penalty as well. His public defender said, he got a good deal on the state case, and here we are. So under the final agreement Duncan who pleaded guilty to this will doesn't have to turn over How to get into his encrypted computer files to prosecutors why? don't know they were seized from his home and An earlier plea agreement offered by Duncan's attorney that was rejected by the prosecutor would have required Duncan to give the password key

For the encryption somehow that fell off the table here That's interesting But the so they said that we negotiated some things came in and some things came out one of the lawyers said so under this that The under this agreement his federal public defender Robert Pevin is the only person who will be provided Duncan's password key Okay, the lawyer said I have access to the encrypted files and how I choose to use them I don't know yet and he said he's already seen the files and he said I'm in no hurry to go look again

Disgusting. That's how bad it is. Also, how about, don't be a dickhead. Give those to police, you fucking. He also said, well, he's his lawyer. He can't go against his job. Really? He doesn't work for society. He works for a client. Get him out.

That's his job. If he's in no hurry to look at it, why would he tell us that he's seen it then? Fuck you, dude. For a reason. He said there's a possibility the files could be used as leverage. He said in the federal trial He said if they're interested, it's certainly something I talked to them about He's saying it's so bad to try to bait the federal the feds into saying we'll make a deal if we can get at those files

That's the point that he's going for here. So he's he's selling it hard Yeah So they said the state resolved the case, but we're looking into putting a case together federally and all of that. So how hard is this shit to crack, these encrypted files? I mean, we've got pretty good people in the case, right? FBI is in it.

They said basically encrypting a computer file said consists of basically you just take the text and run it through an encryption file that turns it into gobbledygook. Breaking that code has to deal with how many random number strings you can generate in a period of time. The general feeling is that nothing's impossible, but depending on the encryption algorithms and size of the password, it could take a while. Yeah, but it's a long spot. We can do that. Yeah. He said, well, this is the FBI.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, youot. We can do that. Yeah, he said, well, this is the FBI. Uh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you're saying the files were blocked. Everybody can... every fucking housewife in the country had a Blogspot blog about their fucking recipes. It's not on there, though. These are encrypted files on his hard drive. So he's turned it into something entirely different. Yeah, he has those, but he has his own blog

that he keeps offline to his own shit. And they said that he estimates it could take years depending on the capabilities and state. He's a computer science guy. Exactly, he was about to graduate. So he knows what he's doing. He said, I would hope that the FBI will have better equipment than anyone else.

And they said that it doesn't take a computer science degree to encrypt files. He said the concept is going to be part of any computer science work. There's several products on the market that will do it. So other cases now. Okay, because now the feds are bringing that in. The Anthony Martinez and Sammy Joe White and Carmen Cubias in 1996.

They said one of our biggest goals of our overall investigation is to account for his whereabouts every single day he was out of custody. We've made some great strides, but there's some gaps. And they said their FBI would welcome anything that can tighten up that passcode or that timeline. So 2008, he pleads guilty federally to 10 counts. Yeah, kidnapping, sexual abuse, you name it, murder, everything here. He faces a death sentence on three of the felonies, kidnapping resulting in death, sexual

exploitation of a child resulting in death, and using a firearm and in relation to the crime of violence resulting in death. He also pleaded guilty into kidnapping, two counts of aggravated sexual abuse of a minor being a felon in possession of a firearm transportation of a stolen firearm and transporting a stolen vehicle The plea means that Shasta who's 11 now it will be spared having to testify again 2008 federal sentencing Dylan has fun his acting or Dylan Duncan is acting as his own attorney now at a boy. Yeah, you know, he's a true

Narcissistic asshole when he goes I can handle this Oh my god, Jesus Christ He dismissed his adjourn attorneys and chose to represent himself. His attorneys objected, saying he's incompetent to do so, and the district court ordered an evaluation and said, he's good, let him do it. Let him have it, who cares? Yup. Psychiatrists working with the prosecution have diagnosed Duncan with pedophilia, sexual

sadism disorder, and antisocial personality disorder with narcissistic traits. But say he's legally sane, just a real asshole. Terrific. That's just a real jerk. So yeah, I'll read from an article about this hearing. Glum federal jurors listened to her testimony, but several looked away from her and across the room at Joseph Duncan, who told the FBI he kidnapped two girls on a Seattle street and was killed with a crowbar and killed he killed those girls with a crowbar by the way out of here beat them to death with a

fucking crowbar so her their mother gets on the stand yeah the the jury of nine men and three women will decide whether Duncan should die for the kidnapped torture murder of Dylan Grone, God Groney. Um, so here we go. Um, they're trying to prove future dangerousness and by that they're introducing the uncharged as of yet cases of Martinez and the two girls to show he's dangerous. It is allowed into court even, uh, even after a big argument because they said it is not relevant to the prison setting Context it's undoubtedly prejudicial. That's what his attorney said But the attorney did district attorney US attorney said it was a continuing pattern of violence

That's a concern even in a prison setting he said So the judge said yep, that we agree with you, the prosecutor. So the stories of the three murders don't just show Duncan's a danger to children. The evidence in this case is highly relevant in that it corroborates the government's argument that it shows a pattern of violence throughout his adult life.

Duncan's choice of weapons has included anything at hand with which he could administer blunt force also and There's plenty of things to hit people with in prison. So They also noted that Duncan was on a rampage against society They said mr. Duncan's own words show that he calculates and plans his opportunities to get even He was acting as his own attorney and he said one of the judges statements was inaccurate He was acting as his own attorney and he said one of the judges statements was inaccurate He said I've never said that I'm on a vendetta. I was but I'm no longer I just wanted that clarified and the judge said yeah noted asshole great

Jury comes back three hours of deliberation Here and They sentence him to you sir may fuck off death penalty times three Yeah times three On that and sentenced to an additional three consecutive terms of life without parole also So he's got six consecutive lives without parole and three death penalties He could kill an entire baseball team that he could oh, that's nine people, nine completely lost lives,

the whole baseball team wiped out. He's in so much trouble. Oh yeah. So when you get those, do you serve your state time and then go to Fed or do you go straight to the federal system? I think he's gonna end up in the federal system, if I'm not mistaken.

He should. We'll talk about it though. April, yes, he'll end up in the federal system, if I'm not mistaken. He should. We'll talk about it though. April, yes, he'll end up in the federal custody because he's got higher penalties there. He's got death penalty there. So they get to keep an eye on him. April, 2011, Anthony Martinez case.

The states love that too, because then they don't have to pay for him. So works out great. Anthony Martinez here, Duncan was returned to Riverside County to stand trial for that murder after the federal case. In 2011, he pled guilty to Anthony Martinez's murder again. You sir, again fuck off.

Life in prison with the possibility of parole for that one. Total sentences for this asshole. Here we go on death row times three with eleven life sentences and three death sentences and he will be sent to the penitentiary and terra haute louis indiana yeah that's a federal joint that's a shit one I think that's where Gotti was I think that's where I'm pretty sure that's where the dude from Chicago that had born to raise hell on his arm Yes, that's where probably what is it? I said probably I think you're right

No, I don't know So it is Robert. There you go. Yeah, right. It's vector. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no They're both specters bad people Robert Specter Richard Specter Richard spec spec spec that's back. That's yeah. We're thinking of Phil Spector. It's Richard spec He's the one with the tits. Yes Yeah, that's the one so Duncan's standby council note filed a notice of appeal and Duncan

Subsequently wrote to the court and informed him that any appeal that was taken on will be against his wishes. He doesn't want to appeal. In 2011, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed the district court's decision to permit Duncan to represent himself without first holding a hearing as to his competence to do so and remanded him for a hearing on this issue. So anyway, the appeal decision, a federal judge ruled that he was mentally competent when he gave up his right to appeal the death sentence

so he doesn't have to have appeals, go rot in prison. Now in the media, this has inspired a lot of works of shit here, an episode of Law and Order SVU. Sure. A Kentucky author, Karen Robards, said the Groany case gave her the idea to make child sex slavery part of the storyline in her newest novel.

Yeah, that sounds great. That's a page turner you got there. Jesus Christ. It's a real riveting happy ending story there. Holy shit, I couldn't wait for this to be over, putting this together. I didn't want to write more about it. I was like, good Lord.

This is what I want to lay down and read. Fuck, good luck. Never get a wink. Oh shit. This woman said, what made Shasta stand out is that when she was rescued, it became obvious that the man who had taken her and killed the rest of her family,

including her brother with her, was a nutcase if there ever was one. You don't really think... Shocking. Now, after being in prison, Duncan maintains the blog spot website titled Joseph E. Duncan III Returns to the Web from Federal Death Row to Expose the Meaning of Fifth Nail. Okay. Okay. All the content on the site was posted by someone using the pseudonym Silenced,

who presumably received letters from Duncan to post on the site on his behalf. This happens a lot in prison. I read a book about a guy who was in prison and he would write all this stuff. Send it to people? Send it to people who would then put it out for him. So, he explains it as this quote

The fifth nail is the one that we drive into our own soul It is the nail that destroys us and causes us to be reborn at the same time Okay, that's what he writes. All right Let's Christian thing, huh? Not really. Let's let's find out here. I believe okay 2012 Saturday June 23rd 2012 here is one of his blog postings and this is by the way the Patreon we're gonna do is gonna be diving deep into his ball and find a weird shit

Holy shit, do you just wanna hear what this nut fucking has to say? So, he basically wants to start a sex offenders club. He wants a real name. A club. Yeah, he wants Sex Offenders Society. Quote, the Sex Offenders Society, SOS, is an organization of registered sex offenders.

It does not matter if you have not ever committed, if you have or have not ever committed a sex crime, you can register as a sex offender at our website or in person at one of our Pride Parade Booths. Sex Offender Pride. Free SOS t-shirts will be given away this year to all new registrants at the Seattle, San Francisco and Minneapolis Parade Boots. The t-shirts read, Registered Sex Offender, Keep Women and Children Away, Men Preferred in parentheses. Jesus Christ.

SOS is light-hearted, but provides real support and information for all registered sex offenders criminal or not not just gays Our organization is founded in the future in other words. It doesn't exist This is not a real thing He just made this up and wants it to exist Christ and is based on the simple belief that not all that all people Wow based on the simple belief that all people are sex offenders and all sex offenders are people i mean no one of those is true that's what i'm saying he said no s.o.s. does not advocate or condone sex crime or any sexual

behavior that compromises another person's freedom to choose their own behavior. Okay. This is this is infuriating. Okay. Tuesday October 4th 2011 the title of this blog is quote Dylan was a bully. What? He murdered a nine-year-old and he's gonna talk shit about it. He's gonna piss on his grave in front of us oh Man quote I've been reading hundreds of pages of newspaper articles about the quote child molester killer Joseph E Duncan the third going back to May 2005 since my arrest I have generally been unable to follow the press and or just not Interested so I didn't know for example about Michael Anthony Mullen the man who murdered two men who were registered sex offenders in Bellingham, Washington.

According to the article, which I just read today for the first time, Mr. Mullen wanted to quote, send a message to sex offenders because of what he had read in the papers about the Joseph Duncan murder sex abuse case. I actually applaud Mr. Mullen for at least acting on what he believed. Even though what he believed was a bunch of lies fed to him by our industrious quote free press, at least he had the courage to take some action and hence direct the responsibility

for what he perceived as wrong with the world. He writes like Sarah Boone. He wrote like those letters from Sarah Boone to the judge with like these little snarky things like no one's gonna notice that like You've got one over on somebody fuck you He apparently later decided that spending pretty much the rest of his life in prison labeled a murderer was a bit more Responsibility than he bargained for so he murdered one more person himself I don't mean to call him a coward for killing himself in a way that took courage to do responsibility than he bargained for, so he murdered one more person, himself. I don't mean to call him a coward for killing himself, in a way that took courage to do.

I just wish this present world were not such that people like Mr. Mullen are taught to think in terms of victims and offenders. This is crazy. His shit is crazy. He said, you are either one or the other according to popular sentiment, but in the real world it's almost impossible to be one or the other, as I think the demise of Mr. Mullen clearly shows. Mr. Mullen lamented the brutal death of Dylan Groany, who I personally murdered in the name

of my own deluded sense of justice, calling Dylan a hero even though Mr. Mullen never met the boy. Mullen did not see himself as a bad guy though Mr. Mullen never met the boy. Mullen did not see himself as a bad guy at all. Writing according to the article, I care too much if anything. I've always hated bullies and pedophiles are the worst kind. I wonder what Mr. Mullen would have thought if he had met any one of the numerous smaller and weaker boys at Dylan's school that Dylan used to get in trouble for beating up just because they were dweebo's

So Dylan himself told me now you're gonna say shit that no that he can't even Wow, um he goes on to say I don't mean to dishonor Dylan's memory Oh, okay Yeah, and he certainly did not deserve what I did to him But the truth is Dylan was a classic playground bully and everyone who knew him knew it. He was fucking nine who cares He was nine. Yeah, whatever he is now. He's not gonna be that in five years. He's nine. That's crazy He doesn't even have pubes yet. What are we talking about? Jesus Christ, that's a fact that you'll never see in the papers

And it's a fact that might have kept Mr. Mullin from becoming the very thing he hated, a bully, if it had been reported. He would have said, Oh good, I'm glad the kid's dead and not went and killed pedophiles. If we want to have a truly free press, then we must allow the press to report the truth. But we don't. Instead, we want to judge everything that's reported just as these words here will be judged instead of heard. Even though I'm stating simple truths with no other motive than to expose the lies. And we do not honor Dylan, who was a real child and human being, not some fictitious angel who always smiled and never hurt anyone. We cannot honor his memory with a lie, so I'm honoring him here, as no one else dares,

with the truth. Dylan was a playground bully. What does that change? Playground man. He's a child. He's nine He's he said nana booboo man And I knew kids. I remember kids who were like like that in elementary school They were bullies that were completely different by fucking 10th grade. Someone punched them in the face and they stopped. That's what happens.

Nine. Oh my god. Okay, here is a blog he wrote about his SVU episode that they did. Law and Order SVU. He watched it, I guess, here. This is from 2015. SVU flattery, question mark? They say that mimicry is the highest form of flattery.

I wonder if that applies when a popular TV show like Law & Order SVU makes an episode based on your crimes the way they did mine. The episode I'm referring to was actually a rare two-parter, though only the first part and entire episode was dedicated to making a monster out of me so that the SVU heroes could come to the rescue and save the little girl in the end. Yeah that's what happened you're a monster and you stole a girl. The second part of the second episode was all about the aftermath caused in the first part. Police fantasy shows like Law and Order are known to take their story ideas from real

life crimes, but of course they rewrite the story to fit the theme of the show, i.e. good guys vs. bad guys. You know, people who don't kill kids vs. people who kill kids. And suit the main character's location. In my case, they made the semi-r rural home that I invaded into an inner-city apartment The kidnaps chill the kidnapped children's older brother found murdered in the home became an older sister And instead of a loose pet dog alerting the neighbor that something was awry. It was a loose pet bird Despite all the changes they had to make it in New York City. That's why not rural, Idaho

Despite all the chair, Idaho. Did I say Ohio? Okay, good. Okay good despite all I'm fucking questioning myself after before when I said website instead of campsite During all the changes they made to the cry make my a crime appear in the heroes domain the crime itself and the criminal Were clearly copied from the news The family's home was surveyed and invaded by a monster that murdered the parents and teenage siblings Solely in order to kidnap the younger children to keep for his sexual pleasure. What's wrong there? That seems right The children a boy and a girl the same ages as the victim in my crimes were then taken to a remote location an abandoned warehouse in the state in the city instead of a forest in Montana, and repeatedly raped until one day

they were spotted in public and the SVU heroes were called to the rescue. Go get him, fucking Maloney. In the TV version of my crime, however, the boy was killed publicly in order to allow the man to escape briefly with the girl, and the girl was rescued later after the heroes sleuthed out the secluded warehouse and killed the monster.

It's not all the similarities to my crime or crimes that make this show interesting to me, it's the differences. Why for example did they choose a bird instead of two large dogs as pets for the victim's family? Perhaps because large dogs would have made the monster appear bold instead of cowardly and weak and Okay, and what I think is it was in New York City So you're more likely to have a bird in your small apartment than two large fucking dogs. That's probably why

Just you know makes sense and why did they depict the man as someone who uncontrollably lusts after sex with children And why did they depict the man as someone who uncontrollably lusts after sex with children? Gee, I don't know, because you constantly rape kids probably. You murder children after you rape them. And that's constantly. This is something that I've never done. Okay? Um, I have no problem at all controlling my sexual behavior and never have. Very few so-called sex offenders ever do, despite the myth made by popular TV shows like this in

Svu fantasy world the man is shown bragging about as many victims and videotapes from his treatment days I of course had many quote victims too if you count all the all the older children who satisfied their own sexual Curiosity at my expense when I was a child as my victims the way the popular news agency is reported after my arrest You being a monster doesn't make those people not monsters exactly you're all fucked up That's the problem the news reports are basically were based on supposedly confidential records for my own days in treatment But I never bragged about my crimes or glorified them in any way and yet in the TV story The man is depicted as a monster with only one craving to rape and torture children.

Well your actions certainly show that. Maloney and his dump truck have to save somebody. Yeah, exactly. In fact, the final scenes of the part of part one episode, while the monster is holding a gun or knife or gun or something I can't even really remember to the head of one of our heroes He starts to rant about how much he enjoys raping children It's precisely scenes like that that really make me question the mentality of the people who watch this crap

Not to mention the people who write and produce it Monsters like that simply can't and don't exist in the real world Okay exist in the real world. Okay. Psychologists have known for a long time, though it seems even entire factions of them have somehow forgotten this fact, that sex crimes are almost never about sex. They're about power and control over some perceived source

of pain and suffering that's pathologically associated with sex. Yes, but they are associated, so you can't control the one that triggers the other. that's the problem The most humiliating thing that you can do to a person involves sex and in sex yes behavior therefore That's why it's linked you Fucking idiot. I thought we all agreed on that

He's like why don't they understand what I'm saying so how in the world can so many people still find sex fiend monsters? So believable? It's like believing in sea monsters, which is actually a better analogy than it might seem at first, at least from a sociological and historical perspective. Okay. It reminds me of a show that I see sometimes on the Mexican channel, Gayla Vision, called La Rosa de Guadalupe, in which problems are miraculously resolved after someone prays to the Virgin Mary for help The only difference is that the hero is Guadalupe the spirit of the Virgin Mary

Instead of an SVU police squad in both shows the heroes and villains are pathologically unrealistic And both shows have devoted fan base made up of quote true believers He hates hate. Now I also, and I love SVU and I've seen a million episodes of it, but I have a problem with how, hey listen, how serious they are. Most of the time, those cops that do sexual, special victim shit, they don't do it for 25 years. They do it for like five years and they're fucking burnt out and they go to homicide

after that. That's what it works because they're fucking burnt out and they go to homicide after that. That's what it works. They're like, well, fuck this. I can't deal with this shit. Yeah. Okay. This is, I'm going to read a short section from a blog he wrote about Criminal Minds, the show Criminal Minds.

The show, yeah. The other one. Yes. He's really obsessed with this. Criminal Minds, we all have one, is what it's called. The simple fact that there's a popular television series called Criminal Minds is indicative of the depth of ignorance that permeates our culture. It doesn't matter what the program is about.

The title alone portrays the ignorance of which I speak. In another age, titles such as Negro Mentality or Jew Psychology once indicated the same kind of ignorance. It's the ignorance of prejudice and self-righteous superiority. The only purpose such program titles serve is to bespeak a class of people who are deemed inferior and undesirable so the rest can feel superior and accepted even though the traits that define the marginalized class are superficial and meaningless Whoa He can't lump it he's being behind bars a lot of those guys just end up going that all the greatest Injustices are in here. You can't compare yourself to a guy that

Got caught with a stolen car on his third strike and now gets like That's a different guy. He's like I'll say you You want to hear him double down on what he just said? Oh, please do. We know today that Negroes aren't the simple and stupid cretins they were once commonly believed to be. Instead, the culture itself that depicted them as such literally defined and created the circumstances that supported the appearance of the inferior Negro mentality. Yes, but you rape kids!

You're not just born black. You're fucking a kid raper What the fuck are you talking about? You can't scream white privilege God and Jewish people aren't the greedy and single-minded herd animals that they were once commonly held to be not just by Nazis But by major political factions in the United States and other countries as well, prior to the so-called Holocaust. We know now that the quote science that was used to support both of these prejudicial allusions was itself the cause of so much ignorance.

Negro brains are not in fact less functional than Caucasian brains and Jewish culture does not in fact center around money and wealth Negroes and Jews are collectively no different than any other people on earth aside from the color of their skin or bullet religious beliefs And so criminals quote-unquote are no different than anyone else as well Aside from the arbitrary fact that they were caught and convicted of a crime. It's not arbitrary though That's how we judge people by their actions Not there right, but listen to Martin Luther King's that's I just say yes The content of their character oh

My god, he said I personally use the term criminal to refer to people in general Not just those who've been caught and convicted in my book We're all criminal by nature not by arbitrary law and circumstance. I believe someday perhaps, even someday soon, I will have a lot of company. I agree, we're probably all criminals at some level. We've done something. Everybody's broken the law.

Never kidnapped a kid and held her for two months and never did that. Kidnapped two children and shot one of them in the fucking head with a shotgun, man. I don't even want to be around kids. Yeah. I can't stand it. What the fuck do I want to be around them for? I can't smoke weed around them or anything.

Get out of here. You guys are lame. I want you guys near me. Yeah. Get the fuck out of here. I want to put the righteous gemstones on. You won't understand it. Uncle Baby Billy's Bible Bonkers is happening. I got to watch it. This show is bananas. He said, wanna give an old man a blowjob? No, what a sucking old man's dick.

What a sucking old man's dick. My favorite line in the whole show is, Why the fuck you mumbling? You tanges. That's the greatest line of all time. Why the fuck you mumbling? You tanges. Okay, so how is Shasta doing? Yeah? Okay, maybe talk about Shasta. Should we I don't yeah. Yeah. No, she's out in public. She's talking people She's doing interviews. I would never seen us. I've seen all these videos of that smart girl talking

I've never heard of this girl and never seen her talk and I don't if she doesn't want to talk I don't want to know she does she's out I would definitely you know me dude. I'm gonna get names out. You know no she's talking alright, so This is 2015 so ten Shasta ten years later she's 19 and lives in Treasure Valley and She said that quote I think the things that happen like that you can't really forget about them I think that the images will always be, you can't really forget about them. I think that the images will always be vivid in your mind or I know they're in my mind. She said, I feel like I'm doing pretty good, but I do have bouts of depression.

I have PTSD and bipolar disorder. She said she fell into drugs at 12. What choice would she have? I mean, just to get just to silence whatever's going on in your head. I mean, she said that's when I started smoking marijuana and drinking. It actually made me feel really good because I didn't have to focus on all the stuff that was going on in my life at that point. I mean, there was still court stuff going on with Joseph Duncan and counseling stuff I had to do.

When I was 14, it was my first time ever doing meth. No. And for four years after that, it was meth. Pretty much anything I could get my hands on that made me feel like a different person. I would do in 2014 she landed in a juvenile detention center for a drug related crime. She served her sentence there She talked about her struggles with drug abuse She said that trying to deal with life as a quote, celebrity victim was not easy because it keeps getting brought up.

Yeah. So she said that her path began to unravel. She said she was after a year in a correctional facility, she was clean and sober. And she said, I actually came to a step down program that's in the Treasure Valley area and was there for four or five months. And they helped me get on my feet, get a place and just work on my sobriety seemed like a

lot of people here see me and recognize me but they're like let's let her live her life so she said now she's been sober for two years is expecting a baby boy in March and she said that she said I guess for a long time I always had this feeling that I couldn't have kids. Duncan stole my innocence. He stole my family from me, but he's not going to steal the fact that I can bring children into this world and that makes me happy. She said, I think it's just kind of, you know, that I lived for a reason. I know there's a reason I'm on this planet and I want to help other people.

She says she wants to go to college and become a counselor. She said, I've had a lot of counselors that don't have a lot of experience with either troubled kid or kids that have gone through Trauma, they're very inexperienced. I feel like I could help a lot of people She also said she wants to write a book To inspire other survivors. She said he doesn't define my life anymore I'm not going to be victimized by someone who's already done so much of my life She said that that, you know, she always thinks about her dead brothers, because she's got a baby

that's gonna be a boy coming. So she thinks about her dead brothers. A trust fund set up for Shasta right after she was rescued has been used for housing, therapy, and counseling, and other expenses through the years. It is dwindling, and she doesn't have a lot of money at this point either in 2015. She said there's a lot of people who may want to reach out

to help her, they said you can visit her GoFundMe, she's got a baby registry and all this type of shit. They said, do you think that, what do you think's the right punishment for him? Rotting in prison, the death penalty, what would you like to see? And Shasta said, I agree with the death penalty, but I wish it was more like the older days death penalties. What does that mean? Draw and quarter him? I know

that the two wrongs don't make a right but I feel he should be able to feel what he put others through. Shasta has the right to feel like that. I mean she's was tortured. She said, on Saturday I'll be 26 weeks pregnant with my son. His name is Lorenzo. I don't know if it's just completely different. I feel like my whole mindset has changed now. I'm very focused on my son. Every time I make a decision, I think how this is going to impact my family. I think my mother instinct is kicking in.

She also met Elizabeth Smart in 2012 at a conference and talked to them. They talked together. She said, I really liked her. You could tell that nothing could tear her down and that her goal She was so goal oriented and wanted to help others. She's definitely a part of my life in a way that she doesn't know about Holy shit This is fucking wild

So I have another blog here, but I think I'm gonna skip that Blog because we're almost out of time here, but he's talking about That one is ridiculous Okay, 2018 shasta's family's house fight here a house in Coeur d'Alene was supposed to be a gift for shasta Okay, but more than a decade later the house is entangled in litigation and is likely to be sold. Oh my god. Yeah, it's fucking ridiculous. It was held in a charitable trust. She and her father began living there in 2007 when she was 10.

Now she's 21 and living in the Boise area, a judge is expected to decide whether her family has any right to stay at the home. Steve, her father who battled throat cancer and lives on disability payments, was served an eviction notice last summer sparking a legal battle. This is a fucking mess, man. That's wild. So they go all into that and that's a mess. She said, I've always considered it to be our home,

not just mine or the trust's, and it's my wish that my father continues to reside there as long as he wishes. They said once she moved out, then they had to yank it. It wasn't, my father continues to reside there as long as he wishes. They said once she moved out then they had to yank it. It wasn't the father couldn't live there. It was only for her. Oh, that's crazy.

Fucking ridiculous. It's asinine. So not sure exactly, but he said I could be homeless in three weeks. Okay, one quick thing here. 2018 blog. Will the real perverts please stand up? Okay. Okay.

The lie that the system wants us to believe is that consensual adult child sex is unnatural, unhealthy and harmful to the child. There's no such thing. No such thing, asshole. The so-called victims are literally brainwashed into believing that they have been harmed. They're told what they should feel, think, and even remember about the bad thing that's happened to them. If you've ever seen a video of the classic first interview of a child victim of sex abuse,

then you've seen this happening. This goes on and on about how this is bullshit. Another article that I won't read is called Holy Children, Holy Shit. It's saying how we put children on this pedestal and they're actually pieces of shit. And this is ridiculous. They're not gods. They're nothing. They're fucking little people and fuck them. Basically. It's wild. I'll up with that one in the, in the, in the Patreon. Then also here's one pedophile hypocrisy.

Why do, why do women shave their body hair? Then also, here's one, pedophile hypocrisy. Why do women shave their body hair? Why do they use makeup so their eyes look big, their cheeks flush, and lips red? When a woman wants to appeal to a man, why does she refer to a girlishly high voice including childish lilts and inflections complete with demure looks? All these things have one common factor. They all mimic the characteristics of sexually immature children, and yet in our culture we accept a woman's attempt to deduce men with immature traits so it were perfectly natural while at the same time condemn the

men who dare to admit they're sexually aroused by real children and call them pedophiles. I'm not suggesting anything here about whether or not I'm right or wrong, only asking why, because it is. Okay, 2019 Federal Executions resume. Yeah? Yeah, after reading that, fuck, someone needs to kill this guy. He has a day-to-day on Death Row blog that we'll talk about on the thing there,

kinda talks about how Death Row is and all that fucking bullshit there. And then early 2021, maybe there is a God Duncan has terminal brain cancer. There you go. Jet. He's life expectancy of six to 12 months. They said, wow. March 28th,, fucking dead. Didn't make it three months. Oh, wow. Dead is a fucking doornail. Wow. Anthony's mother, the kid he killed said, the sun is brighter today. My soul is lighter. The world is a more beautiful place without the evil that is Joseph Duncan. 2024 Shasta's trailer burns down. No, this is so sad. Jesus. That's trailer burns down. No. Look at this.

This is so sad. Oh Jesus, that's terrible. She now has four kids and a burned down trailer. Oh my God. She has a GoFundMe. She had reached as of April 4th, 2024, she had reached 43,000 of $100,000 goal. But maybe we can help her out a little bit.

This poor girl. And you can buy on Amazon Volumes one through five of the fifth nail the journals of Joseph Edward Duncan the third where the fuck does that go? Amazon hardcover $31. I have no fucking idea. Hopefully to Shasta at this point So anyway, there you go. There is Idaho and some crazy shit. Gonna get through the end real fucking quick here. Go to shutupandgivemurder.com, get your tickets for live shows,

rate, review, do all that shit. We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Small Town Pod on Facebook. For certain, get Patreon. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material, five bucks and above, gets you all sorts of hundreds of bonus episodes, new ones every other week. This week, which you're gonna get for Crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material five bucks and above gets you to all sorts of hundreds of bonus episodes

New ones every other week this week, which you're gonna get for crime and sports We're gonna talk about soccer riots the worst ones that have happened you get access to that and then for small-town murder We're gonna go into this assholes blog even further and hear his crazy fucking thoughts dot-com Slash crime in sports and you get a shout out which now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most wonderful goddamn people in the world who would never do any of the shit that happened today on this episode. Hit me with them right now.

This week's executive producer, Gary Howard, happy hour checking in in Menton, Mentoni. The thing is, Menton, Texas, that sounds so bleak. Oh boy, Ashley McCann, happy birthday to Cain. Ashley, happy birthday. Happy birthday. Ashley McCann. Happy birthday to can Ashley. Happy birthday Happy birthday. That's fantastic Betty better beat it. I don't know what that means Betty better beat it that sounds Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows Janice Hill Jimmy Chrisman the fellow that I went to high school with evidently Somebody decided to donate in his name and his honor because I

fucking hate him. Samantha Beckham, Michelle Aldrich, Sharon Yandoll, Yandoll, Yandollie, Yandoll. Matt Dennis, Jessica Hanson, Jill Sanders, Sylvia Czech, I think. Danny Engelby, Danny Engelby. Eric Metcalf, not that one. Oh, it's Medcalf, not with the T. Oh, not the old punt returner. Not the old Browns punt returner. Browns, yeah, the Browns. Jennifer Kaluzny, Carolyn with no last name, Audrey with no last name, Melinda Welles, Wheelis,

Danielle Tamaszewski, Tama Zurski, Jesus Christ. Brooke with no last name Jennifer Perato Emily Dobert Karen Smith Philly with no last name Wanda Taylor Chrissy Fitzgerald Rob Thomas Thompson not right That who's Rob Thomas This picture of standing next to sinbad. I'm always sunny. He's a big fan of ours. Johan Ornberg.

Johan. Johan Ornberg. JR, with no last name. What'd you say? Johan. Johan. Johan, that's what it is. There you go.

There you go. Ha ha ha. Johan. Johan. How American am I? Brittany Pollitt. Uh, Warren Dudley, Hannah LeClair, Dash Hoggaboom. Nicole Arrington, Mike Becker, DC, Ashley H.,

Sarah Joy, Nellie O., Jen O'Brien, Shell with no last name, Jonathan Lavelle, Brian Talbert, Sky Murphy, Jenna Rittenhouse, Vicki Stern, Jay Lert, Lening, Haley Powell, Chris with no last name, Timothy Fraley, Luke Turner, Lucas Peterson, Maureen Courtright, Ellen, Ellen, Ellen Maffey-Hardy, Kristy Coffee with no last name, no that is the last name Kristy Coffee with no last name. No, that is the last name. Haley with no last name. That's where I was going.

My brain was a name ahead. Kathleen Potts, Harry Rigolot. It feels like you're trying to get me to say something gross and I don't think it is. Stephanie Packard, Andy Nelson. Linda, Linda, Linda, Linda, Linda. Mike Laney. Katie Journey, Christopher Jones, Tim with no last name, Stephen T, KDCS,

Sean with no last name, Ali Cross, Charles C. Hill, Memory Hess, Christopher Mackey, Big Perm 1970, Man in Space, Saskia with no last name, Kramer and his cougar milf. I mad, all right, I'll take your word for it. Allie with no last name, Send Some Pictures. I gotta fuckin' judge this if I gotta say it. Ty Wainer, maybe it's Warner.

I may have missed an R, that might be Ty Wainer. Jessica Lee, maybe Leah. Samantha Baker, Jason Partipillo. Brian Wilges. Ron would know last name. John Polichuk. Kristen Thomas. Laura Gongole.

Gator Hader. Mike would know last name. Michael would know last name. Steven Rasmussen. John Bilad. Blad. Steven Rasmussen. John Belaud. Blad. Blad. Katie Souther.

Shane Rainey. Yeah, Rainey. What? All right. Amari Dejoy Burbridge. What the fuck? M Freeman, gimme hot sauce. Working hard.

Hout sauce. Is Hout, is that dirty? Is that the hout sauce? I don't know. Yeah, it's a different, yeah. Is it like filthy in like Britain or something? Jacob Schlamer. Summer Ross.

Bridget Toon. Maybe Toony. John Lenderman. Tim Latalupi. LaTulip. LaTulip. Nancy Meese. Courtney Jackway. Nicole Falcone, Stacey Andrews, Ben Rash, Summer

Barnes, Vivian Harrah, H.V. Quay, Bailey Denham, Finn is God, James, I just learned that today. Lucy Roberts, Alina Koskinen, Alina Kayla Christensen, Samantha Responte, Kristi Higgins, Chris Orr, Cedar Ribidu, Holly Birdsol, Alyssa Kitchen, Samantha Driscoll, Demetrius Davis, Blaise Bradshaw, Robert Sanborn, Dallas Martin, Colleen Berg, Samantha with no last name, Jeannie Enzee, and all of our patrons are the best. Thank you. Thank you so much everybody from the bottom of our cold dead hearts. We appreciate the fuck out of what you do for us. Please please don't do anything bad to people or kids or anything else.

We beg of you. You want to follow us on social media. Shut up and give me murder.com. Drop down menus take you where you want to go thank you so much and until next week everybody it has been our pleasure Mom, mom, did you see my race? Of course I did, darling! Look, you did your best. You tried.

The thing is, it's not about winning, it's about taking part. Next year you might do better. But I did win, Mom! You did? When it's sunny, make sure you can still see. At Specsavers, get two pairs of glasses from $149, and one can be prescription sunglasses. Hey, the sun won't wait. Visit Specsavers.ca for details. Conditions apply.