Small Town Murder - #82 - Sick, Twisted & Extra Stupid in Flora Vista, New Mexico

Episode Date: August 23, 2018

This week, in Flora Vista, New Mexico, a young woman goes looking for a job in broad daylight, then suddenly vanishes, sending the whole area frantically searching. The tragedy only gets worse from there, when we find out what her last, horrible few minutes must have been like. Plus, jokes!! Along the way, we find out that people used to be willing to fight over paperwork, that 74 degrees is the perfect temperature for a criminal evacuation, and if you get arrested for murder, don't tell everyone you meet that you did it!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday!!Please subscribe, rate, and review!Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!Head to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder!For merchandise: crimeinsports.threadless.comCheck out James and Jimmie's other show: Crime in Sports Follow us on social media!Facebook: facebook.com/smalltownpodInstagram: instagram.com/smalltownmurderTwitter: twitter.com/MurderSmall Contact the show: [e-mail] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events, told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week, in the scenic town of Flora Vista, New Mexico, the disappearance of a young woman in broad daylight sends

everybody scrambling for answers. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. And I can feel the yay in my bones this week because I feel it. It's big sorry.

We apologize, any crime and sports listeners, to the lack of crime and sports this week. But I am ill. I don't know if you can hear it in my voice, but I'm not in good shape right now. I have enough voice for one show this week. And since Small Town Murder has like five times as many listeners, we said we should do that one probably. That's all we got to do. This is what we got to do. So we apologize for that.

But thank you, thank you, thank you to everyone joining us today. Thank you guys for all of your iTunes reviews this week. They mean the world. We've said it before. It's a business thing. It really helps the show drive up the charts. So if you've not done it yet, go over to iTunes or Apple Podcasts or whatever the hell it is and give us five stars. It doesn't matter what you say.

It really doesn't. Just say something on there. It's not for our egos. It's really just for business. You're not changing my point of view. No. And if you want to be an even bigger superstar, a real superstar, one that we can't tell you how valuable you are, you can

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shutupandgivememurder.com you can get all your merchandise needs t-shirts and mugs and bath mats and all that good shit there and of course tour dates all of the tour dates there as we've mentioned before we're going to be everywhere might as well run it down quick san francisco portland seattle cincinnati minneapolis detroit

chicago philly boston new york uh dc or baltimore whatever the fuck somewhere in maryland i don't know what the hell it is spring valley or spring silver springs silver springs there we go atlanta houston dallas and denver and houston and houston dallas and there are no that's in no particular Silver Springs. That's the one. Silver Springs. There we go. Atlanta, Houston, Dallas. And Denver. And Denver. And Houston. And Houston, Dallas. And that's in no particular order.

But we'll be in all those places. That's a shitload of cities. It's all those. And we've had a lot of questions. We're going to answer one question right now. This one is very important. It's very important because the venues and the different ads, it'll say general admission or it'll say standing this or that.

So people ask us, will there be chairs because we had a yes yeah the answer we had a couple shows last time where there was like half the room is seated and half isn't we're not going to do that we didn't realize that was even a thing that people would try to do yeah we were just up there like why are why is half the audience not in chairs like do they want to not be in chairs what's happening leaned against those people are not leaned they're sitting on purses and backpacks. Yeah, man. It's like an hour 45, two hour show. Make you stand for that shit.

It's comedy. There's no music. There's no dancing. It's just comedy. It's not a fucking incubus concert. No, you're going to laugh. So if we have to go to a rental store beforehand, get a goddamn U-Haul truck and fucking rent chairs and bring them 500 chairs

out of our pocket. We'll fucking do it. We don't care. But everyone's going to have chairs, so no matter what your tickets say, fear not. The chairs will be there for you to sit in and get so drunk that you won't be able to stand, which is the goal. That's it. A bunch of people standing, they're not going to get drunk enough. Have you been to a live show? These people drink their

fucking asses off. They don't understand how comedy works, some of these people. So much fun. Yeah. Some of the clubs, they understand. You go to Punchline in Philly, they goddamn get it, those people. Goddamn it. The Cubs.

The Cubs in Nashville? Not fucking around. The Cubs, the Zanies, they know what the hell they're doing. There's certain clubs. They know what's up with that. But never mind all that shit, Jimmy. It's time for the disclaimer. Yeah.

As always, we have got to do the disclaimer. This is a comedy podcast. It is. Above all else, else it is that's what matters we take the facts extremely seriously that the cases are real the research is real we don't make things up to make it more funny or more interesting or anything like that but we do make jokes we're comedians that's what we do that's kind of the point of the show right uh if you want to listen to a very sober, solemn telling of it, there's a hundred thousand options for literally... Watch the fucking news.

Watch the news. It's half the podcast. You can watch Dateline. You can listen to Dateline. There's a million places to go, but this is not one of them. We're going to make some jokes mixed in there. What we don't do though, is we do not make jokes at the expense of the victims or of the victims' families. They don't deserve that. Why do we do that, Jimmy?

Because we're assholes, but- We're not scumbags. We're not scumbags. That's the point right there. So with that said, we're all in the car. We're on the way to the liquor store. Everybody's just as involved as everybody else. So if you're on board, then you're on board.

You're in for the long haul. You're in it for life. Let's do this. Let's do this. I know what you're saying. You're saying, shut up and give me murder. That's the one. So let's do it. We have just that for life. Let's do this. Let's do this. I know what you're saying. You're saying, shut up and give me murder. That's the one. So let's do it.

We have just that for you. Murder. Hey, how ironic. Look at that. Hurry up and buy, James. You want murder? We got murder. Yeah.

So here we are. Let's go on a trip, Jimmy. What do you say? You ready? I can't wait. You packed up? I got a new charger. I saw that.

That's pretty cool. I like that. It's a handy key change. That's pretty neat. It plugs right the fuck in and goes right back in my bag. Going to be handy for the road. We'll pack it up and let's go. That's pretty cool. I like that. This little fucking handy key change. That's pretty neat, dude. It plugs right the fuck in and goes right back in my bag. Going to be handy for the road. We'll pack it up and let's go. Let's do it.

We were in South Carolina last week for a real asshole. That guy's a dick. We have a lot of listeners that live at James Island, I found out. We've got so many people right around James Island. Right 20 minutes from my house. Oh, my God. I was like, Jesus Christ. We've got to go to South Carolina for live shows. Scott Countryman shows fucking lives right there it seems like half our listeners lived right there based on

twitter i don't know but uh fucking bananas we're going clear across the country today to one of your least favorite states jimmy oh new mexico you know it that's it baby i knew he'd know that jimmy is notorious for being an anti-New Mexico. He's unabashed about it, too. That's the other thing. He's completely unabashed. Fuck that state. He is to Mexico with a man standing in a Klan hood with a flamethrower or a torch up to a cross. Right in public.

Just like, I don't care. That's what he is about New Mexico. If that was how you taunted new mexico that's what jimmy would do like david duke running for office not even hiding not even hiding here i am we're going all the way to flora vista new mexico okay flora vista this is up in the four corners area really yeah we were in north central new mexico last time for in that area so many times. Yeah. This is in that. Remember we had a trailer park shootout, I believe, in Chimayo.

Yeah. The guy just popping shots off and hiding up in the woods and shit. And wow, it was crazy. That was ridiculous. Like looking, sniping at cops and all that. Well, this is up Northwest corner of New Mexico. If you're not from the US or just shitty at geography, there's the Four Corners area where four states come together and make a perfectly weird plus sign. Four Corners.

Perfectly weird Four Corners. It's the only place where that happens. And so this is right there. There's a little plaque on the ground. You can walk up and stand in Arizona and Colorado, Arizona and Utah, Arizona and New Mexico. Wherever you want, Pat. Or any of those four. Or lay down, get in a twister position. Lay them maybe lay down have your wife sit up put your head

right there the glory have your wife sit on your face and you can you can punch her box in four states at once oh baby four states where where's it gonna be where's it coming honey where's it going to be? Where's it coming, honey? Where's it going? Where are you going to do it? Utah? All right. Fuck them Mormons. That's awesome. Hillbilly box eating on the four corners. That'll be scared away everybody here.

There's no hillbilly box eating at all in this, I promise you. All right. Flora Vista, New Mexico. Northwestern New Mexico, like I said it's that the county of where the four corners is so it's in that area it's three this is truly in the middle of nowhere this is middle of god you've been in the four corners area it is god forsaken no man's land there is nothing out there it's very strange that like you'd think that that would be right in some fucking mountains and it's not no it's it's just on the edge of beauty but it's it's

in the mountain it's elevated yeah that's the thing it's just a it's just a flat yeah they just elevate it and flat up there it's super weird there's nothing but there's like mesas and all sorts of weird shit to look at middle of nowhere the closest real place is albuquerque yeah which is three hours away which i still pretty much consider the middle of nowhere albuquerque is a shithole horrible sorry albuquerque uh but uh three hours away which I still pretty much consider the middle of nowhere. Albuquerque is a shithole. Sorry Albuquerque. But three hours to Albuquerque about six hours to Denver

six hours to Phoenix. It's just in the middle of nowhere. It's the way to put it. It's like eight hours to Salt Lake from there. That's what I mean. It's so far from everything. I mean in three hours

we can be in Albuquerque. Oh wow. Just think if our car was full. Put the kids in the back of the truck bonnie let's do this so it's in san san juan county uh up there zip code 97415 area code 505 like most of new mexico is and it was all 505 for a while there's like seven people you'll never run out of that area just keep keep going. You got it. I know they put a new one in there, but still. 2.1 square miles this town is. So it's a small town kind of in the middle of nowhere.

There's a couple of nearby towns, one of which had some brutal murders in it also. Really? It ties into this. That case and this case tie in so tightly that I actually was confused for the first part of my research. Because they attribute this murder to somebody else in a couple of places oh no and so i was looking at i screwed it all what a bunch of dicks it's super weird there's another case like literally the next town over yeah that's just as crazy that we have to do sometimes shitty new mexico yeah they try so hard for nobody to know what's going on here no they nobody cares they're like new mexico that's a state right they're like the the arizona diamond

backs are to major league baseball like if you haven't paid much attention to baseball you're like is that that's a team is that a real team they're still doing it that's a minor league is that real one oh that's a major league team okay Okay. They're still trying. Like the Cardinals go there. They won the World... Fuck out of here. The Tigers go there. Just, okay. All right. Real teams go. Okay.

I'm just checking. Real teams play them. So elevation of this place we normally don't give, but when it's this kind of anomalous, we have to. 5,509 feet of elevation here. It is higher than Denver. So it's higher than Denver. I mean, this is a mile high place.

This is a... He doesn't get the credit for it because nobody's there to see it. Nobody gives a shit. Motto for this town is, our motto sadly committed suicide two years ago, so we no longer have a motto. It's very sad. Rest in peace, Motto. Rest in peace. It was super bored.

It had nothing to do. He shot himself. It jumped off the cliff. It went out in a shed in the back and just shot himself. It was very sad. Very, very sad. Left a note. Right uh it was just bad things on the racial slurs it munched the box yeah of the neighboring towns yeah got to keep their motto now the history of this town the only history here is conflict and strife the west like, it's a strange place, as we all know.

If you're American, you probably would know this just from general movies and history. But people, for the most part, didn't go out West because things were working out fantastically for them other places. I mean, some people did. Some rich people went out there to try to, you know, to have everything because here there's other rich people there. There's nobody there yet. But for the most part, it was, well, I'm wanted in four states.

Shit, eight people want to kill me. I'm busted out. I owe everybody money. Four banks are after me. The Pinkertons are chasing me. I think I'm going to go to New Mexico. That sounds good. That's what people did in the West.

So these were mainly. The land was so, it was so threatening. You could die at any minute. So it was like, yeah, if you had the balls to go out there and you could survive out there, you could kind of get away from shit. And that's what people did. It's modern day Alaska. That's what people do in Alaska now. It's like, what are you doing here?

If you're not born in Alaska, if you're in Alaska and you see someone who's not born in Alaska, you go, you want to cruise right now? They say no. You go, what the fuck are you doing here? Be very suspicious because they're running from something. Something is after them. Now, this and that's the only reason to go out on the on this run is just because you've got the benefit of getting there far outweighs staying there.

Yeah, no, it's true. And the chance that you're taking to get there. They're going to hang me if I stay here, so might as well go out there. I'm dead either way. So, yeah, these are people with little to lose, and moxie, we'll just say, a lot of them. Obviously, the first people here were not that type. The first people here were natives, the Anasazi people. That's where the Anasazis were. They were in that area, yeah.

They built the Pueblo at the Aztec Runes National Monument in the early 12th century. Around there, by the 16th century, Pueblo and Navajo natives were all in this area here. So that was interesting. There was a war between the Navajos and the whites for centuries, obviously, in this area here so that was interesting there was a war between the navajos and uh the whites uh for centuries obviously in this area as just for the most of everywhere in the west uh then the spanish were there also uh so the spanish the spanish and then also the americans forced the navajos into slavery and made them do shit obviously because you know they show up they're like okay

well they don't they're not wearing a shirt I guess we'll make them pick shit like that. I really think that was the prerequisite. Their shirt was painted on. Let's make them do some shit. Like if they knew that and they were all just like, oh, shit, they're coming. Everybody put your shirts on. I really feel like we could have avoided a lot of catastrophe. They would have just been like, oh, they're not.

We can't take them. They have shirts. They could have just killed a few soldiers and took their uniforms and then shit would have been a lot different. Yeah, that's true. Damn. That could have just killed a few soldiers and took their uniforms, and then shit would have been a lot different. Yeah, that's true. Damn. You got a good point. You should have been doing that.

In 1864, American soldiers, led by Kit Carson, forced over 7,000, not 700,000. That would have been a real- That's a lot. That's a lot. Especially for back then. Kit Carson couldn't count that. No. He'd be like, I don't know a shitload of them.

7,000 Navajos to make the, long walk there oh no way where yeah they they can they walked them to they established reservations at that point in new mexico and north northeastern arizona as we know a lot of northern arizona's reservation and that goes the same as mexico or new mexico is the same way especially this county the same way, especially this county. The Navajo Nation owns 60% of San Juan County. And the U.S. government, the federal government, owns 29% of the county. So do the math. 11% of this county is privately owned.

That's crazy. The rest of it is just already taken. So there's not a lot of privately owned land here. The San Juan County was established in 1887. And this is when shit got really crazy, because this is when soon as the white people showed up in droves, shit got wild. It really did. These were people running away from things, like we said, and rivalries again with the counties. I love when they fight over things and shoot each other over records. Imagine shooting a man over paperwork.

Imagine you want the paperwork that's in that other building so bad. We're going to get together and figure out how to kill many of them, possibly burn most of their town to the ground so we can have that paperwork. Sometimes at my job, when I need paperwork from another department, I would rather just fucking murder them. Well, you know what? It's an option, apparently. Because they are, fuck, man.

Here's a tip, Jimmy. Make sure after you murder them, you've got to burn the department down. That's how they did it back then. Oh, God, no. That way you know, oh, fuck, now we have no place to put the records anyway. Yeah. We've got to rebuild. We don't have time for paperwork. Or write new paperwork.

Jesus Christ. So, yeah, people came here looking to get away from other shit the territorial government named the city of aztec as the county seat of san juan county it's a very very very tiny town this is all political wrangling bullshit okay but there's a rivalry obviously uh among the different towns for who's going to be the county seat because you get to keep the goddamn records. Holy shit. So the residents of Farmington, Junction City, Largo, and Mesa City all protested the appointment. I know where all this shit is. You've been around there.

And they all thought they should be the county seat. So they had an election in 1890, and it was nothing but controversy. Junction City received the most amount of votes. They beat Aztec by nine votes. So there's calls of cheating. And Farmington only had one vote. Well, it makes sense. And Mesa City had none.

None. Not a single one. No one showed up, apparently. Fuck voting. So in 1891, a judge ordered the city of Aztec to move all the county records to Junction City. And so they moved all the county records. And everybody's happy, right, Jimmy? That's the end of it.c to move all the county records to Junction City. And so they moved all the county records. And everybody's happy, right, Jimmy? That's the end of it.

Everybody goes, no. What they did was officials, the Aztec, the people in Aztec said that the election was illegal. And a judge investigated the election process and found discrepancies and illegal activities during the election because it's an Old West election, for Christ's sake. It was by people with guns to their head voting for shit. Russia was meddling. Yes.

You know it was. They're like, I don't even know where that is. You got a globe? So you said Mesa just refused to vote at all? They got no votes. Mesa City, no votes. What if... I think because they all threw their lot behind a certain

town wouldn't it be amazing though if we all just in this country just bought into that whole thing and the next election just everybody was like go fuck yourself we're nobody's gonna say a word what happens then whoever's got the bigger family wins i don't understand what you're talking about i mean like i think it's better if everyone says a word oh i guess you got a point i guess you got no no obviously no one does i think that's what they did last time and look what happened so i think you're probably the wrong answer you're right that if whoever has the biggest family then it would be whoever's gonna vote for whoever's in their family exactly like well i'm voting for my uncle fuck it at least i know him i don't know the other guy what if their family hates them i don't think their family hates them i'm just saying what if zero votes are cast except for one each for themselves

yeah then what the fuck happens i don't know well then you go to the senate at that point if there's a tie and whoever's in charge there i guess they probably can't get away from the red tape jimmy it's not gonna happen we don't live in that there's 300 fucking 30 million people in this country we can't just go i think bob should be it yeah bob's a good guy we all we there has to be things and we have to figure it i know it sucks i like chaos and anarchy as much as the next guy but we need something you're probably right and that the forefathers are probably like what if nobody votes they probably thought more about this than I did. I think we should make the president live in a different house every four years.

You got a good point. So you never know where it is. So that's not like part of the allure at all. You might be in Lincoln, Nebraska for all we know. You could be in Flint, Michigan tomorrow, motherfucker. You have no idea. With no bottled water. Yeah, I'll bet you that water gets cleaned up tomorrow.

With no fucking, with no sparklets thing. No Dasani. Nope. Nothing happening there. So that would be an interesting thing. Fuck my dumb ideas. That's a brilliant idea. Move that motherfucker around to the shittiest area of this country.

Yeah, and don't tell them. No. Until like inauguration day. You swear in and then they'll be like, and you're going to Grand Rapids, Michigan. Yeah, do a drawing. Shit. Damn. Sorry.

Flint and Grand Rapids. Sorry, Michigan. By the way, we'll be in Detroit. We actually like Michigan. The people are cool. See you at the Fillmore. But, yeah. So, I think that would be really fun at that point.

Just to see the look on the guy's face. Just see the depression. Just see them try to hold it together when you tell them somewhere awful las cruces new mexico and pennsylvania and they're like great hard working blue collar kind of place my kind of town how much money i just invested to be president this is bullshit living fucking scranton and that's that's not just the president mind you that's every motherfucker at the senate at the congress what and you have to play golf in there too you can't play golf anywhere good you have to play golf wherever they put you i feel like that would be a good thing then they'd be fucked fucking nine whole courses shit cleveland

oh man enjoy everybody enjoy uh so they these people were fighting this is obviously you know they're going back and forth like we said said, a judge investigated the election, said that there was illegal things. And he said that Aztec was, again, the county seat. So the county rented a room from a local businessman for $10 a month to bring all. They needed to like, they didn't have a place for the records. And they were going back and forth. So they were just like building temporary space for these records. They were just storing it in Tom's unused basement he's got a closet so we'll just do

that i don't know uh it's so ridiculous the whole thing's ridiculous they built a jail in 1892 so you got to have a jail right away obviously uh now people started to it is it's sort of pretty it's i've said this before about new mexico in this area it's postcard pretty yeah a picture of it is gorgeous it's beautiful really i mean there's purple sunset and orange and these maces and it's gorgeous but if you're standing there you're like jesus this is horrible how do i leave i hope my car doesn't break down because i'll die out here that's how it's not pretty anymore it's just postcard pretty so people would saw it was very pretty back then and some people lost their fucking minds and moved there around the uh you know turn of the 1900s somebody got a postcard

somebody got a postcard like this is phenomenal how to do it a lot of uh agricultural stuff popped up here fruit orchards apples and there was tons of apple orchards in this area makes sense vegetable farms all this type of shit so apparently it's like you stood up on a on a higher point and you looked over there was like a lot of different colors of trees and plants and fruits and the different colors of the red rocks and all that so at one point it was very pretty back then still hell on earth but pretty pretty hell on earth and hot as. Pretty hell on earth. And hot as fuck, too. Hot as balls up there. Holy shit, is it hot. It's hot there.

I've been to Farmington a handful of times. That's right by here. That's way too many times. It's awful. Way too many times. Way too much. By 1905, the Denver and Rio Grande Railroad had built railroad through the area. So people started bringing sheep and cattle and all that shit through there.

It became like a real town. And then 1950 is when the oil and gas industry really started here. And that's when people came to the area. Before that, it was just a couple of farmers and people that thought it was pretty. That's pretty much all that lived there. But it went huge around from 1950 on the population of the county like the city of farmington increased 763 percent in 10 years yeah that was just a blow up because there's jobs there so people wait till electricity happens and they have some oh power plants up there huge uh in the

country nothing else is up there might as well stick it up there you bet that's coal natural gas petroleum everything there uh today it's uh it's not it's also like we said and you just said it right there with the electric uh grids or the electric whatever the fuck they are things up there also there's tourism up there in the four corners area so people people drive through there on purpose to see that for some reason i gotta see where four square born states i don't give a fuck about intersect i gotta look at it eat my wife's box right fucking jesus middle of the night it's just a weird it's the most bizarre thing because it's just a fucking marble slab on the ground and i think you gotta pay to get to it now probably i'm pretty sure there's a fucking entry

when they built it well i don't know for Four Corners, but 2001, they built a huge stretch of highway out there, US Highway 550, which made it easier to access, and then the tourism picked up after that.

Now, people, population of this godforsaken place, tortured souls that rest in this hellhole, 2,115 people live here, which is up 107% since 1990. So that's since more jobs have been there.

Just out west, everything's blown up. Median age in this town, 46 1⁄2. So almost 10 years older than the national average. Way more females than males, because there's an older crowd. Always going to be more females, because like we've said before, these son of a bitches outlive us all the time.

Nothing we can do about that. Married population in this town is about 70%. So that's way higher than the 51% average. So I think you're going to, well, it's also an ethnic thing because there's a lot of Hispanic people there. And I don't know if this is considered racist or considered just anecdotal what I've seen. It seems like Hispanic people are more likely to be married,

I feel like. If there's a stat of Hispanic and white people and their average age of marriage or their average marriages, I feel like the Hispanics are going to, and they stay together longer too. The longevity is insanity. Yeah, I feel like the Hispanics are going to, and they stay together longer, too. The longevity is insanity. Oh, they'll hate each other for 30 years, but they'll stay together, goddammit.

She'll call him a puto every day. Yeah, they're like, we have pooled our resources, and I ain't fucking breaking it up. Sorry. I want a pool, and we're saving for it, so fuck you. I drink Coronas, the little baby bottles, every Friday night. I'm just going to keep drinking them and put up with her.

Actually, less widow people here than normal. More divorced people here. Less people married with children. A lot more people married with no children, which is usually older people. Usually not Hispanics. Don't say that fucking much right there. That is racist. So anyway.

Insanely racist. Speaking of race, race in this this town it's about 63 percent white which is exactly on the national average uh 0.0 percent black yeah none at all that makes a lot of sense no asian 0.0 percent asian even not a one even on the tourism spectrum nothing there are no black people out there no nobody fascinating nobody. It's fascinating. Fucking 8.7% Native American, which is normally under 1%. So that's going to be- That feels low, actually. That's what I said, too.

And about 29% Hispanic, which you'd about expect there. And 41% of the people here are religious, which is lower than the national average of 50%. You got your about 10% Catholic, which is your, that's going to be your Hispanics there. You got almost 12% LDS. Wow. That's going to be your hispanics there you got almost 12 lds wow that's right by utah close enough fuck there that's an easy invasion right there they're coming 0.0 jewish i don't think so no you're like fuck this place no way no thank you moving on unless we own the power plant fuck it it. The motto killed itself. We're leaving. Sorry. 0.0% Islam also. I don't think so.

No. Politically in this town, 35% or so are Democrat in this town and about 63% Republican, which is strange for this state because it's mostly a blue state in presidential elections. It's also strange when you have that much blue-collar jobs around. Yeah, they're all blue-collar jobs, as we're going to find out. It's bizarre for that many people to be Republican. But the income's a little bit higher, as we're going to find out here. The unemployment rate's high, though. They want to hang on to their money. Yeah, well, unemployment rate's 9.1%, which is way higher than the national average, about 4% higher.

Thinking, though, I mean, on the Republican side, those people, they want to hang on to the roads. The amount of money it would take to make those roads drivable in terms of, like, comfort would be bananas. Oh, yeah, yeah. It would be more than what those fucking people make. That's a federal project, those highways.

Yeah, but I'm not talking about just the state stuff. Oh, you're saying just any road. Any road. Just to make anything. And that general area is fucked up. Oh, you're saying just any road. Any road. Just to make anything. And that general area is fucked up. Well, there had to be industry there, yeah, to have any of that shit happening. The household income here is about $65,000 a year, which is normally about $54,000. Yeah, that's a good chunk of change.

A little bit higher here in the jobs, like the mining jobs here. Normally it's 0.6% is the national average here. It's about 12%. So you get a lot more of that here. A little danger in your life. So yeah, a little bit of danger, that sort of thing here. Overall cost of living, normal is 100 averages. That's average or par or whatever you want to say.

Here it's about 106. We have groceries are about the same, health care. Housing is a little bit high, though. Is that right? Median home cost. I. Housing is a little bit high, though. Is that right? Median home cost, I'm sorry, a little bit low. Median home cost in the country is $216,000. Here it's $193,000. But the house is actually, there's not a lot available,

and the ones that are, as we'll find out, with the Flora Vista New Mexico Mexico, real estate report. Your average two bedroom structure, I guess, for to rent an apartment home is about $1,030 a month. It's about 200 less than the national average. Three bedroom, two bath home I found here. It's about 1,372 square feet. It's a little rough. It's got kind of a chain-link fence out front that's not all connected. They're not all together. It's a little messed up here.

A couple of poles missing. A couple of poles. Exactly. That's exactly what it is. A couple of caps missing on those poles. $180,000 for that bad boy. At that point, those things are so fucking easy to build. Don't you just fix that?

I think to sell it, just build another one. I found a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,553-square-foot house. This one's put together nicer. It's cleaned up. The chain-link fence is all nice and sturdy. $239,000. Still a little pricey for this particular home, if you ask me. And I found a four-bedroom, five-bath, 4,015-square-foot home here.

Whoa. This is really nice. It's got pillars. What a waste. Yeah, there. Like, why? $549,900 to live in what's the opposite of paradise? I don't know what the word for that is.

Flora Vista. Oh, that's Spanish for opposite of paradise. Okay, gotcha. Things to do. Outdoor shit. Stare at a mesa. I don't know. There's a lot of lakes around there that you can fish.

Lakes. Shit to stare at. Also, the history hikes are back at the Farmington Museum, everybody. They went away? They were gone for a minute, but fuck you, they're back. If you think they were gone forever, you can suck a dick, fella, because they're back. They're treating the mystery hikes. Is it mystery hikes? They're back. They're treating the mystery hikes. Is it mystery hikes?

They're back. History. History. Join us on the second Saturday of the month, May through September, for a fun and informative hike that explores the cultural and natural history of the Four Corners region. Space is limited and registration is required to traipse through the woods. The program is for adults 16 years and older, includes transportation and lunch. They will take a 3.8 mile hike to look at foliage down through shit.

It's $20 a person. $20. To fucking walk four miles through the woods. Jesus. And we're treating it like the McRib, like it's a big deal. Jesus. That better come with a man to pick the ticks off of you afterwards, too. Some poor guy with a tweezers and a McRib.

They hand a McRib to you and they go, you've done it. Good Christ. it's back. It's back. Crime rate in this town, also back. Property crime in this town is pretty low, actually. It's about two-thirds of the national average. So it's pretty low, about a third less than the national average. So not bad at all there.

Violent crime, murder, crime murder rape robbery and assault obviously the mount rushmore of uh violent crime is uh just about at average slightly below but pretty much right about average so more likely to kill you than steal your shit in this particular town and let's talk about some people who were killed or some person that was killed and let's get into murder and i had to this case here like i said it started out with i found this murder and it was attributed to somebody else accidentally i found out later so i started getting into that person but i already had a big backstory of the actual murder covered and and researched so then i had to i'm researching this person and i'm like this is not the same person

they were talking about before. How did they both kill the same person? Neither of them are code. If what the fuck is going on and I'm sick and I'm trying to fight through a day, Quill Hayes, snot mind and figure this shit out and finally sorted it out and found this case. And I like it because it's not over. We've had a lot of very personal cases lately. Yeah, very personal.

Like I'm going to torture you because you fucked my girlfriend. Or the other one was, I want to get rid of this one so I could be with some other woman. It's just all very, very, very personal. So I wanted to do more of a random this week because I've had random shit happen to me this week and it reminds me of it. Quick story, very quick sidetrack,

and then it is murder time, I promise. We're selling our old house, as you know. We rented this house. We rented this house here with the studio and all that, so our other house is for sale, and it's actually sold. I have to preface this, that this, by the way, is about to be fucking disgusting. This is horrific, by the way. We will try not to put a Blue Apron ad after this story, because that would not be fair to be fucking disgusting. This is horrific, by the way. We will try not to put a blue apron ad after this story

because that would not be fair to Blue Apron. So we're selling this home, and it's only about two miles from the house we're in now, so we check on it all the time and shit, and the neighborhood it's in is not the best. It is directly down the street from a methadone clinic. This is why we beg for Patreon money and shit to get me away from a methadone clinic. This is why we beg for Patreon money and shit to get me away from a metrodome.

Methadone. Methadone. Methadone. Jesus Christ. To get me out of Indianapolis. Get me out of Minneapolis. Minneapolis. See, I can't say methadone and you can't say.

So there we go. It's Annapolis. I'm on board. Anyway, so we move out of there. The house is sitting there. We sell the house. It's closing in two weeks, less than two weeks now. So we're like, this is terrific.

We go there the one day and someone had broken into this house. Okay. They're broken into our house. No idea what this person is. No, they didn't break anything. This is the thing. Broke in through a window, like pried it open and then closed it behind them when they left. Didn't break anything this is the thing broke in through a window like pried it open and then closed it behind them when they left didn't break anything didn't like rip anything up or kick holes in the walls what they did do though was give themselves an enema i know this because my toilet was clogged

and there was a bum enema on the floor. So. Who the fuck does that? And then gave themselves a bath, did not clear the water out, and stole my shower head. So I don't even know what the fuck to make of that. What kind of caper is that? What the fuck kind of a goddamn master criminal did this shit? So that's not what you want to see. No. Oh, look, a bum enema.

That's wonderful. I love it. That's great. Yay. It's either that or a neighbor ate so much cheese and was like, I can't make this mess either. I can't do this to my toilet. I can't get to the 7-Eleven. So let's just bust into there.

That is fucking amazing. So I figured from me being violated by a stranger, let's talk about other people violated by strangers, people that deserve it even less than me. It makes me feel better. You know what I mean? It doesn't just happen to me. It happens worse to others. It's the greatest goddamn story that ever happened. A bum enema.

That's great. So $200 later for a fucking plumber because I wasn't going to unclog the bum enema really that's great so 200 later for a fucking plumber because i wasn't going to unclog the bum enema because the toilet was clogged there was toilet paper in it and i don't know god knows what else in there and i'm like i'm not digging into that no fucking way no fucking way no because it's it's not it doesn't take a lot of math junkies are constipated opiates constipate you there's a methadone clinic up the street one plus one equals fucking two here come on jesus christ that's amazing that was the air conditioning was turned down and the fucking bum enema they got comfortable they got comfortable they put it down to 74 of those motherfuckers they got comfortable like it's hot because we had it

turned up because we don't we're not living there it was was on like 85, you know? Nope. They're like, let's turn this down. Holy shit. They're in a bath. Their fucking intestines cleared out, feeling comfortable and good. Sitting in that bath. You did not tell me.

Yeah. They set the AC down. Like assholes. So I know this is a long sidetrack but this was really traumatic and you know what this goes along with what we're this is crime fuck you guys it happened he murdered your toilet murdered the toilet fucked up the tub stole the shower and cranked my ac down to 72 it wasn't like a rape but he definitely tried to jerk me off when i wasn't looking you know what i'm saying it's not as bad as a and we had to call we had to call the cops obviously just to have the record of it and uh that was uncomfortable i had to tell them there's a they just shit really

because they're like what'd they do like well they shit how do you know well there's a bum animal in the toilet's clogged so that's a good way they're like all right then like every all of our detective work they're like yeah that's probably right and uh. They're like, all right, then. All of our detective work, they're like, mm-hmm, yeah, that's probably right. And then they're like, do you want to press charges? I'm like, what, are you going to go out and look for this guy? Who's the mad shitter? I'm going to go out and hunt this man. You're not looking for him, number one.

And number two, for what? I'm going to go to court and go, that man shit up my house. I want him put in jail. I don't know. No, don't press charges. I don't know. He obviously needs a place to shit, so he's got other problems besides let's set up some sort of social structure that gets these people enemas and gets some fucking toilets i didn't know that was such

a problem to clear it out amazing so uh on to murder oh my god i can't believe that they moved that was amazing turn it down why is it so nice in here what the fuck is that that was the thing sarah walked in and went why is it so cool in here it shouldn't be this cool in here and then was like why is there oh that's disgusting she's like has anyone been here i'm like what do you think so what do you think the realist the realtor came over and gave themselves a fucking enema? Hold on. Before we buy the house, I want to test out the plumbing real quick. Honey, get my enema. Was there an open house here this weekend?

I'm going to blow this bowl up, and then we're going to see if the plumbing can handle my... Oh, my God. I had a big charcuterie board last night, so I'm going to see if it can handle the salty, fatty porks that I've ingested and fire that bad boy out like a missile. We'll see what happens. Sweet fuck. Oh my Christ, that's amazing. We could do an entire show on that caper.

This could just go all over. The caper of the bum enema. That would be the name. So good. The caper of that. But we have murder to discuss. We do. Hey, everybody.

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Now back to the show. Holy shit. Oh, boy. Okay. On to this murder here that we have to talk about. Let's talk about the second worst crime of the week. No, this is way worse than the bum enema, But it's still, the bum enema is violating. It's pretty up there.

Let's talk about a young lady, shall we? Let's talk about Sandra Phillips. She's 17 years old, back in 1994. So she is a teenager, kind of. That's pretty much, she's a year older than me. So that's interesting. So I know what she's all about. I'm sure I can see how she's dressed. I me. So that's interesting. She's about. So I know I know what this what she's all about. Yeah.

You know, I'm sure she's I can see how she's dressed. Yeah. I can see what she's like. Yeah. I feel it. You feel or you got the same thing. But I don't know what it was like growing up in New Mexico. Of course, she did live in Phoenix for a while.

Also. Yeah. She lived in Phoenix. And her brother took her to live with her mother near Flora Vista, New Mexico, seems like a terrible if you're a 17 year old you live in phoenix phoenix is a big city there's you know some shit to do at least there's stuff going on flora vista there is nothing we told you the things to do and it is hike and pay money to walk through the woods that shit will cost you not a lot to do there uh she she lives with her mother near flora vista kind of right on the outskirts it's you know the little town it's 2.1 square miles

and then like you know there's little houses kind of right around that little actual town proper that's where they are here uh she has a friend named lacy minor uh she she hung out with sandra phillips all the time they were both uh into cheerleading. They were cheerleaders, and they both really dug animals, as a lot of teenage girls do, and younger girls, they like animals, as young kids do. My daughter loves cats. Everybody wants to be a vet. Oh, my God. If you ask every nine-year-old girl what do they want to be, 87% of them will say they

want to be a vet. It's the weirdest fucking thing. They either want to be the vet or the president one of the two they have no love animals and boston people that's it yeah perfect if they could find a job bossing animals you'd really have an eight-year-old girl in a nutshell yeah really i've had them you had you have i have one right now currently a current one a roasting son of a bitch absolutely so uh sandy had a pet iguana that she was super super into and she like took around places i don't know she lives in new mexico i guess that's normal based on new mexico kind of wild there aren't they yeah i guess just pick one up by the tail i got it

meredith are they doesn't their tails fall off though uh no they're pretty stiff yeah iguanas are dicks i don't like iguanas i think they're i think that's all bone on an iguana. Oh, my stepfather had an iguana at one point. No, they'll hit you with that. Oh, it whipped him good. He was all bloody. Yeah, he was a dick. This thing.

But it got out one time and got out into the house. And they were like, after like three weeks, they're like, well, it must be dead. And then all of a sudden it was hanging on the blinds. Oh, my God. Inside of the house. And it was, I don't know, 20 times the size it was when it was in its cage. When it left, it was this little tiny thing that you pick up in your hand. And now it was a fucking monster.

It was a fucking monster. It's a dinosaur in your house now. It was the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life hanging off the thing. I was like, oh, my God, what the fuck is going on? Where's the house cat? It was bigger than a cat. It was a fucking kid. It ate the cat.

It mauled the cat. That thing was nasty. But anyway, Sandy had plans for the future. She was a smart kid. Everybody said she was very nice. She loved her animals. And she wasn't a dick. She was just a nice kid.

Typical teenage kid. She wanted to be like her mom, who was a nurse. So she wanted to go to nursing school after high school. Her and her friend Lacey were all excited because they had it worked out. So they had it all planned that they were going to go to nursing school together to help each other. They take classes, try to get in the same classes together so they can carpool and do all that shit. So nice, right? That's good.

They have plans for the future. That way they could study together and all that sort of thing. But, you know, that's what people do. We could go to this college together and it'd be really fun. And, you know, whether you follow through on that or not is one thing. But we've all had those conversations. Learn how to give each other enemas and houses for sale. You know, that's what you do.

You're just like, hey, check it out. You just stick this right up your ass. Wait, turn the AC down first. No, no, it's got to be cold. That's the only thing I know about animals is apparently it has to be 74 degrees to administer them. That's the only fucking thing I know about them. You have to be insanely comfortable. You have to be super bathed.

Fucking Jesus Christ. I'm surprised there wasn't like a fancy bath bomb wrapper in there or something. Something from Lush. Yeah, just something real, real fucking ridiculous, you know. All natural. Either that or just a big thing of Mr. Bubble. Just going old school with it. Perfect.

Now, it's February 7th, 1994. Like we said, she lives with her mom, Flora Vista. She has friends. She does things. But it's a small town. And there's not a lot to do she needs a job uh she's like she's 17 she's looking for like a job just to make extra money and for christ's sake find something to fucking do this is pre internet everybody so back then if you wanted to find a job you couldn't just be like i'm gonna sit here and pick my ass and get on my phone and apply for like a bunch of jobs you had a newspaper every day you had to get a fucking newspaper either

that or if you lived in like a small town like this you had to get up out of your fucking couch and put clothes on and make yourself look as nice as you could and then go to these places physically and say may i please have an application to give you and they'd hand you a piece of paper that you would have to embarrassingly fill out for 45 fucking minutes and then hand them back to them so they can read it in front of you and decide whether you're worthy to fucking talk to for three minutes. And in front of other customers go, what was the highest grade of education, y'all? To make $5.50 an hour back then.

So that's what having a job was as a teenager in the 90s. Now it's a little bit different. You have to proclaim that you're still a junior in high school in front of some dick that's trying to put gas on pump four. I'm in school still. So she called from home. Her mother was at work, and she was at home, and she calls calls from home sandra does at 12 40 p.m so middle of the afternoon on february 7th 1994 she said she's gonna walk into town and apply for jobs uh all she's just gonna walk up and down the main drag there and a couple of streets and just apply

everywhere she can basically she's fucking bored everything that says help wanted yeah get my embarrassing fucking resume i've pretty much done that as a teenager, too, where you go in and apply for 20 jobs in a day. What's the first place you got turned down to work at? Oh, God, I don't even remember. It's embarrassing. I'll tell you mine. I don't remember. I walked right the fuck to Subway on my 16th birthday.

I filled out an application, and the manager looked at it and goes, not now. You're not ready. Yeah. You need a little extra seasoning. That's what he said to me now you're not ready yeah that's what he said to me you're not ready i'm not qualified i'm like to do what meat and cheese on a fucking bread qualified are you talking about not qualified how could you not be qualified for that this is bread this is meat you put the bread on the meat and then you close it put the meat on the bread and then you close it see if you put the bread on the meat you fucked it all up never mind done he was probably right because i was a fucking idiot you were an idiot but i walked over to peter piper and they hired me 10 minutes later yeah i had a

job when i was like 14 because it was illegal of course but i was back home nothing was legal like i don't know anybody that had like a real inspection sticker that actually had their car inspected like because you have to have an inspect everybody knows a guy for 10 bucks they'll just put a sticker on it there's nothing is on the up and up in new york nothing is nothing even the jobs weren't like my cousin worked in a beer distributor and my dad talked to the guy so i went in there and he hired me even though it was very illegal and he paid me like cash under the table and all that shit that That doesn't happen out here. It was everybody back there. Nothing was on the up and up.

This is the wild west. There's no stipulation. When was the last time you had your car inspected here? There's no inspection at all here. Well, they have emissions here, though. That's a different thing. Close enough, I suppose. But there you'd have to have the sticker.

I literally have never known a human being that went to a place and made an appointment and did it. It was just Frankie would look at it. He knows a guy who's got stickers and that was the end of it i don't even know what the emissions place does they plug some shit in my car and then they go all right have a nice $28 please give me $28 now you can go spend money at the dmv and go buy your place thanks thanks bud thanks a lot appreciate you so uh yes whatever the fuck you just did to my car thanks for plugging something into my gas tank or whatever the fuck they do. So the mother says here, her daughter Sandra said she's going into a town to apply for jobs. But the mother said, hey, you're supposed to vacuum.

You're supposed to clean up the house. She says, I'll do it when I get home. I want to get these job hunt over with. You don't want to go in there at 6 o'clock applying for a job. It's best to go. She should have been going at 10 o'clock in the morning you're going at noon at lunch after the lunch rush i guess who knows here uh now sometime uh uh between uh 12 30 and 1 30 on february 7th people see her walking in flora vista uh this is less than a mile from her house by the way this is not like way on the other

side of town this is a mile from the house she's seen walking toward a convenience store uh there uh which like i said this particular convenience store is less than a mile from her home so she's right there a bunch of people said that they saw her uh walking around all different parts of town like she she was seen over there you know i saw her on the corner of this and that oh yeah i saw her at that store over there yeah she was in the denny's there whatever the fuck the restaurant yeah she was seen all around town which is consistent with what she said she was doing she's going around applying for jobs so she would literally be all over the place uh so she was and uh also she uh it's there's a record of her going

to the water the flora Water Users Association, and she paid her mother's water bill there. So she's running errands. She's applying for jobs. She's walking around doing shit. That was probably how she got out of vacuuming. She's like, tell you what, I'll vacuum later. I'll pay the water bill now.

You don't have to go on your lunch break. What do you say? I'll go down there for you. Once again, everybody, in 1994, you had to sometimes physically take something to a building and hand it to someone you couldn't just go bloop and then it worked and you could take cash that's the well they'll take cash they don't give a shit anything now they probably could mail it in also but probably not if you're late on it and it's the seventh so maybe they were late on their payment and trying not to get a dinged for a fine or something i don't know they don't have the most

money these people i don't know if they're poor, but they're not wealthy. I know that much for a fact. So she's seen all over the place, like we said. She applies for a job at a restaurant. They have an application of a job that she applied for at a restaurant. So the afternoon goes by. Her mother gets home from work, and she's still not home. She says, my floor, A, is dirty, so this is a fucking problem.

Sandra, Sandra, where are you? And she finds out she can't find Sandra. So she's like, okay, maybe she's running into her friends or something. Who the hell knows? But this is unlike Sandra. She's a nice kid who likes an Iguana. She's very reliable. She's not known as somebody that kind of goes off the reservation.

In northwestern New Mexico, you have to be very specific about that. Which one, James? It could actually be the reservation. She's not somebody that wanders off, though. That doesn't really happen here. Her mother becomes concerned, obviously, over the course of the evening when her daughter's not home and she doesn't get any phone calls from her daughter. Nothing.

No one's heard from her. This is now the evening. This is now the evening. She gets home from work and she says, OK. So the mother calls the police, which seems reasonable. She calls the police to report that her daughter is missing and she should be around and isn't. And but after she calls the police she also goes looking for the daughter because it's a fucking small town and if your kid's missing it's a two

mile square mile town it's right there you're gonna go search around and so she does uh she goes looking for her at the restaurant she goes looking for her at the convenience store she figures she might have stopped for a drink she asked them if they had seen her the restaurant says yes she was here she applied for a job here here so she's kind of retracing her steps doing the police work for the police at this point now uh lacy minor again uh she talks about trying to find uh the family and her trying to find sandra and uh it was so hard they couldn't find her. She, uh, she was the mother. Darlene is Darlene is Sandra's mother. Darlene Phillips. She calls Lacey in the evening and tells her that Sandra's disappeared.

And, uh, you know, she doesn't know what the hell to do. Have you seen her? Have you heard? Can she tell you anything? Basically like,

you know, even if she said not to say anything, you could tell me, please tell me we're super fucking worried and all that. And Lacey minor hadn't heard anything. She really just didn't't know anything so she didn't know what to do uh they everybody stayed up all night they nobody slept they said everybody sat around waiting for her to come home and uh she didn't come home uh so the next day they all talked to the police including lacey minor because she's closest like friend to her and the mother. They talk to police the next day.

They immediately put up posters. They're aggressively looking for their daughter. This isn't like, well, I guess they're missing. We've seen some of these families are just not, they're not the best family. Some of the families, when something happens to a kid, a lot of times- The reaction time is slow. The reaction time's a little bit slow. They're like, well't they don't see

they're just not on the ball for whatever reason whether it's sometimes it's drugs and sometimes it's just a general apathy sometimes it's whatever it is grasping the urgency of the situation they don't grasp it and they don't care and they they get that head start these people the next morning they were up they're making posters they're talking to police they're trying to find them they put posters up it's all the way in flagstaff which is you know probably four hours from there it's a good clip uh prescott which is another hour down holbrook which is northeastern arizona kind of on the way from phoenix to new mexico if you take that what is it the 87 you take that weird through flagstaff and then over that's the 40 and the 17 but if you take the 87 the beeline hit it over there if you take the beeline it goes up to you can meet the yeah what are you kidding me if you're ever driving east never fucking drive up to 17 don't be an

idiot drive up the 87 and hit that way now that we've done arizona northern arizona traffic time with james and jimmy hey look at this that 87 is the most dangerous strip of freeway it's fucking hard. It's terrifying. It's super dangerous, but you'll get there way faster. You're going to save like 20 minutes. It'll be so much quicker. Never don't.

I never not take that way. Give me a break. All the way down to Phoenix. So six hours away, they were putting up posters because she's from Phoenix. She lived in Phoenix, too. That makes sense. Yeah. So they don't know.

And they basically put posters all the way on the way to Phoenix, both directions, whether you go down the 87 or the 17, there's pictures. In Phoenix, there's pictures, because they think maybe she ran away. They don't know, because the cop said she'd lived in Phoenix. Okay, then she's recently moved here. Well, she's a teenager. Maybe she went the fuck back. Maybe there's a boy that she was seeing back there.

Maybe there's something. Maybe there fuck back. Maybe there's a boy that she was seeing back there. Maybe there's something. Maybe there's this. Maybe there's that. Maybe it's just Flora Vista versus Phoenix. Yeah. And she chose the right answer. Yeah. No, that's the thing.

She was like, yeah, I'm going to the... No. And Phoenix, by the way, is awful. Trust me. It's the worst. By the way, we'll be here on November 5th, I think, in this awful, awful town. I think it is the 5th over at the venue. On a fucking Monday night in a venue that's way too big.

So come see us there. Or watch us have a complete fucking meltdown in our hometown. Either one. Something's going to happen. I'll tell you that much. It's going to be so packed, you guys. It's going to be amazing. Get your asses there.

You better be fucking packed. I'll come to your houses. Where the fuck are you? We will drag you there. You better be fucking packed. I'll come to your houses. Where the fuck are you? We will drag you there. You love the show, do you? Heard you like my show. Prove it, motherfucker. Where are we on a Monday night, cocksucker?

You don't love us then, do you? I'll tell you where we are. Yeah, we're on a goddamn stage. That's fine. Okay, so anyway, she's missing here. And they asked Lacey about, I'm sorry. They asked Lacey about, you know, she said this whole period was horrible because this goes on for weeks. Days turn into weeks.

They're looking for. She's gone. They're looking for. There's not a trace, nothing. And this is a lot like the recent thing in Iowa. The was a Molly Tibbetts girl who just disappears. And this happens a trillion times a day. the recent thing in iowa the was there molly tibbets girl who yeah just disappears and uh this happens a trillion times a day and we get that it happens tons of women of color and all

that shit they get it a lot more and it doesn't get advertised it's a cute white girl it's out there especially with a picture of like a college thing on you but we're saying in the news this has been out in the news yeah a lot lately and this is kind of the same thing of everybody's like what the fuck here uh is happening so it was that sort of that thing it goes on for six weeks of they just uh you know what's fuck man they said that uh they didn't know where she was obviously they were worried about her they didn't know if she ran away or they didn't know if somebody took her they don't know because she's 17 so it's also possible and reasonable that she ran away. That happens a lot. I just saw a thing like two weeks ago of a girl who emerged as at 19 now who ran away when she was 14. And she was like, now I can tell you she was a missing person and she got tracked down and the police went to her and they were like, you know, you're a missing person.

Did you know that? She said, yeah, I fucking disappeared on purpose. And now I'm an adult and I don't want to be found. So fuck off. And they were like, bye. All right. You'm an adult and i don't want to be found you can say so fuck off and they were like bye all right you're an adult you don't have to be anywhere so it's people do that she outlived the placement back to her parents that's exactly right she was like go fuck yourself i hate those people i don't want anything to do with them slam the door fucking awesome it's like good for you good for you you're amazing yeah good for you so uh running for president yeah you should because you Can I tell you that? You're not running for president.

Yeah, you should because you're a badass. You don't give a fuck. I know you're not eight anymore. That's all right, though. So they said every time the phone rang, they would jump up and hoping that it was her or hoping it was someone telling them where she was. The mother was the one because you're dealing with northwestern New Mexico police here, too.

So this isn't the biggest. I don't know. i wouldn't trust these fucking people either we'll put it that way no offense to them up there but this isn't the most crack police force in the world probably you don't have a deep receiving pool that's the other thing not a lot of people this doesn't they don't deal with this very often either is the other problem it's mainly not even a lack of training or lack of intelligence or whatever. It's a lack of experience in this sort of thing. In LA, fucking people disappear all the time. They know how to look for them. It's a thing that happens.

So Darlene, the mother, Darlene Phillips, she's following all the leads. She's talking to the people. She's out and walking around in the streets with a picture just saying, have you seen my daughter? Do you know my daughter? Have you ever seen my daughter uh at one point her and her son uh uh sandra's brother

went to colorado to talk to a psychic i mean that's where they are after a few weeks they're they're fucking tapped they went that far well you have to do something i feel like that's what it is you at first you go out you look you search you put up posters it feels like you're doing something you ask people you ask people but after a while you're in a town of 2,200 people or 2,000 people. You've asked everybody there is. You've gone everywhere. You've put up posters. There's nothing more you can do.

You've got to resort to it was clearly somebody blowing through town. You're doing something. Somebody's got to know something. Let's try one of these psychics. Fuck it. It's better than nothing. So that's all it was, though. They said they got up every day.

They went to work. The mother said, quote, they got up every day. They went to work. The mother said, quote, we got up every day and we went to work. We slept, but it wasn't life. It wasn't a life for six weeks. Now, February 24th, 1994, the sheriffs here, the county sheriffs talked to a man, talked to a man named Timothy C. Allen. So Timothy Allen, we'll call him tim allen baby yeah this guy here yeah the thing is no matter what tim allen i mean we could talk tim allen might

end up killing 30 people in the story we don't know even if he does the other tim allen's a worse human being probably than him i think he's worse i think i hate him more anyway i don't know maybe i just maybe i just fucking hate home improvement and everything everything that man represents to comedy is the fucking worst bottom of the barrel lowest common denominator horseshit privilege a a just dumb privilege uh trafficking son of a bitch is one of the richest fucking quote unquote comedic actors in America. And he's a family. He's the Santa Claus.

He's a family. He's Mr. Family Guy. Not Mr. Family Guy. That's an actual. That's Seth MacFarlane. He's Mr. Family Man. Before Seth MacFarlane was out there singing show tunes being a closet homosexual. Yeah, he was out there.

I don't even know. Would you call him closet? I don't think he's closet. Let's be honest here. I'm serious. I think Seth MacFcfarland's most talented motherfucker around and i don't care who he fucks but i don't i i don't think he's hiding much really he was banging uh he's always seen with women though i've seen yeah he's whatever i don't really care but we are way off because we don't care who fucks who or what or whatever we're just it's just fascinating it's just funny yeah i don't know

just exactly fascinating we're nosy it's more just gossip is all it is i don't care i just want to know because everything's my business so it works you know and if it wasn't tmz wouldn't exist exactly that's the point we're no we're a I'm a curious. Look at what I do for a fucking living. I'm a curious person. I see there's a murder. I'm like, well, let's find out all about it. What about that town? What do they do?

What's the parade like there every year? I'm an asshole. I like this shit. You know, you too. We're both assholes. So Tim Allen, the worst, lesser Tim Allen. This guy, I guess, because he has less money than tim allen we'll call him lesser tim allen even though the other one's worse you get it lesser net worth

tim allen yeah he is has a meeting with an off-duty sheriff's deputy and the deputy's wife on an unrelated matter okay now we don't know what the unrelated was. All we know is it's some sort of legal matter. And why the fuck was the deputy's wife there also? This makes no sense. I don't know if maybe he had a beef with the deputy's wife or his wife had a beef with the deputy's wife or somebody that he knew. And then the cop got whatever it is, whatever it was, they're having some sort of meeting about some other unrelated matter. Tim Allen and the sheriff. Now, this Tim Allen says, unprompted to the sheriff, because it's about something totally

different, that he was waiting for a friend at the convenience store in Flora Vista back on February 7th when Sandra disappeared, and that he saw her walking and saw her go into a couple of buildings while he was waiting. He saw her walking around. She go into a couple of buildings while he was waiting. He saw her like walking around. She went in a building, came out of a building. Now, later on at a different meeting, because this I don't know what the negotiations were like between this guy, the spouse and the deputy's wife saw her name saw sandra phillips name written in red ink on a page of of uh tim allen's daily planner what the fuck that was under the date of february 7th so they saw that they both uh claimed to have seen that okay now you obviously

are curious about tim allen i would think at this. Not only does he have a name that's stupid, but he's also I want to know what the hell the other unrelated matter is. Number one. And number two, why is he have a missing teenager's name written in red, red and redding under the date on the plan? Because it's a day day planner under February 7th. He he's got her name written in there which is super fucking weird well we'll find out with him uh alan is a carnival worker oh which is probably the least trustworthy job in america number one first of all they're they're transient right i have actually known a carnival worker well. There was a guy, a quick story. I've told the story about my friends who robbed the concession stand at the Little League and got away with garbage bags full of candy, and my friend with the spree and the cops coming in the package of spree. Well, the guy who initiated that whole thing started out with a carnival worker named Satanic Bill.

I think you've mentioned that. Satanic Bill lived with my friend kevin for some reason he let him there was a carnival in the parking lot next to his house and somehow the carnival left and satanic bill lived in my friend kevin's basement around don't understand it so quit the carnival he was yeah total and now he's oceans 11 and do a candy heist with teenagers this guy was like 27 years old we We were like 15 years old. That's the other fucking thing. That's amazing. So he's hanging out with kids.

He introduced my friends. Two of my friends became crackheads, smoking crack with this fucking guy. He was the worst. He carried a gun all the time for no reason. The worst human being ever. His name was Satanic Bill. That's what we called him. He's got underground drills for stealing spree.

Oh, God. It's fucking amazing. So carnival workers, awful awful people so this is what we're dealing with here he's a carnival worker with a criminal history which honestly that has to be on your application to as a carnival worker like we're sorry you don't have enough felonies for this kind of like you with the subway they're like you're underqualified that's what it was they were like we're sorry you need to go get yourself a couple felonies do a little time get a couple of white pride tattoos in the can and then come back and we'll maybe hire you.

This is back before Subway was the biggest fast food chain in America. It was when they still had the 90s. It was just it was kind of good. Yeah, it was when they still cut the bread in the weird triangle and stuck a little strip on top. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Now they split it in half. Now they make it like the rest of the universe makes a sandwich. We've figured it out.

Everyone's been making a sandwich wrong for centuries. No, they haven't, actually. The best delis in the world, they don't know what they're doing. You cut the top in with V, put all the meat on, and then just stick that on top like a fucking cherry. It took so long for them to cut that fucking bread, too. Because they would miss. They'd be like, oh, shit, it's deeper over there. No, it's deeper. It'd be crooked. The fucking cut that fucking bread, too. Because they would miss. Right. And be like, oh, shit, it's deeper over there. No, it's deeper.

It'd be crooked. The fucking disaster. You can't fit anything. You'd have to hold it like a trumpet, too, when you're putting it in your mouth, because otherwise the fucking top would fall off and it's a disaster. What a mess. And they have that shit crab meat. Ah, good.

You don't want that. No. Some of the weirdest sandwiches. I just got the brown roast beef. I know what I'm doing. I'm going to mess with that shit. Just get the brown roast beef. It's brown, it i'll mess with that shit just get the brown roast it's brown it's thick and it tastes fine whatever so he uh he has a criminal history like we said a prerequisite for carnival work uh he's added a

dui or two we don't know in the past which like we said that's normal uh surprised he had a car to drive that's shocking maybe he was like one of the bumper cars or something is all we can strove it off the lot there. Big pole sticking up. That's how they caught him. He was trying to make a run for it. He was trying to make a run for it. They're like, I can see his pole above traffic.

Just keep following it. He can't get away. He's not going very far. He's not going very far. He's got a flag hanging off it. Come on. When this road goes uphill, it's going to stop. It's over.

It's over at that point this chase is done also in 1982 and details are very sketchy on this but in 1982 he attacked a young woman we're unsure of it if it was a physical or a sexual manner but we from everything i've read in the these fucking court man oh man in court they danced around it like what it was but they they didn't spell it out so it seems like it was a sexual assault of some kind uh he didn't kill this woman but there was some sort of violent assault on this woman who then survived she had injuries to turn him in wow and he uh got in trouble for that at that time and uh she'll come up later on as well so and the funny thing is as we know if

you if you follow killers and that sort of thing any sort of killer shit there's all there's a progression a lot of times and uh a lot of times if you let somebody go and then you get caught for it next time you're like well i know not to let the motherfucker go now instead of going well i won't do that anymore they go well next time i gotta kill him jesus christ what was i thinking all right someone's gotta die uh also uh if that's not enough for you he had recently checked himself into a mental institution for a while good god and had recently gotten out and hey guess what everybody if you've got problems and you need help you go ahead and you check yourself into an institution go ahead knock yourself out hope you've good luck to you i hope you get the help you need if you are a a carnival worker with a criminal history who just got out of a mental institution then i'm

gonna look at you sideways because you've that strike one strike two strike three the mental institutions like strike nine that's not i'm not even worried about that way more worried about the carnival just go piss on a cop car and stay in jail for a while that's it right there yeah that's perfect do us a favor just keep doing that like just counting stretches in county for a while that's it right there yeah that's perfect do us a favor just keep doing that like just counting stretches and county for like two weeks three weeks a month at a time and when you get out find another one piss on it again now you know what's up going uh his mother this is how his mother describes him okay his own mother this is her description of him quote he's killed a cat tripped his sister down the stairs punched his sister in the stomach while

she was pregnant like to fight and generally like to hear the sound of breaking glass wow that's her description of her son good dude in a nutshell yeah just uh killed the cat tripped his sister down the stairs punched his pregnancy i like how she said it too punched his sister in the stomach while she was pregnant not punched his pregnant sister in the stomach not attempted murder no baby and then obvious that's a if you punch a woman in the stomach that you know is pregnant that's a you know what you're doing you're going after that kid vicious assault that's not even assaulting her you at that point yeah and then also like to fight and generally like to hear the sound of breaking glass which is like what the i'm and he works at the carnival and he's got a DUI and attacked a woman and just got out of a mental institution.

Have we painted a fucking picture here? Clear enough picture? Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little more about The Great Courses Plus. TheGreatCoursesPlus.com. Oh, The Great. We're getting smarter.

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Watch or listen whenever you want with the Great Courses Plus app. And now this special offer just for you guys. And you know, we've talked about it a lot. We love the Great Courses Plus and we know you will too. And as one of our listeners, you can start enjoying all of these wonderful lectures for free, Jimmy. For free. For free. But to start that free trial, you must sign up now at thegreatcoursesplus.com slash STM. That's thegreatcoursesplus.com slash STM. Unlimited library in their trial for free. Thegreatcoursesplus.com slash STM. Go learn about Gershwin. And now back to the show. so march 21st 1994 this is you know six weeks after the this uh sandra phillips disappears a shepherd out in the uh in a remote hilly area about sheep shepherd like a sheep a guy with

fucking sheep that's how far in the middle of nowhere we are just a dude walking with sheep that's that still exists apparently there's at least in 1994 there were still just people walking around america with sheep fucking staff it happens yeah just a staff sheep i assume his dick out he's had sex with the sheep anyway this particular day uh this is about three and a half miles north of flora vista uh this shepherd this shepherd finds Sandra's partially decomposed body next to a tree in a hilly, remote area here. Investigators come here, and they say that they found a denim coat draped over the lower part of the body when they arrived. Heath Ledger. It was like, over there, it's Heath Ledger that did it. I knew it.

I knew that bastard. So they see that. Now, the mother had told the police earlier that she had told her daughter to wear the denim coat on the day she disappeared because it was chilly out and the coat belonged to the mother. And then she said, take my coat and wear it when you're out there. So also the coat had bloodstains, and these bloodstains were consistent with Sandra's blood also. So all this is not boating very well here. The investigators at this point, they lift up the coat,

and they find that Sandra's shirt was pulled up over her bra, and that one of her, she like like tie up lace up boots. One of her boots had been removed and her pants and underwear had been pulled off one of her legs. So the person pulled off her boot and then pulled her pants and underwear off just the one leg. Now, a medical examiner who examined everything and a forensic pathologist who did the autopsy said that the condition of the clothing was consistent with a sexual assault, which it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. You don't really need a medical degree. And also, the forensic pathologist found evidence of bruising on her inner legs that indicate a struggle during a sexual assault that are very consistent with common injuries during a sexual assault. The forensic pathologist also testified that the decomposition of Sandra may have prevented

the discovery of further evidence of a sexual assault, obviously, or a struggle with an assailant because the decomposition kind of takes some of the trace evidence away sometimes, especially with bruising and that sort of thing. If you're decomposed, your bruises aren't there. Tissues go on the, right. Exactly. So both these people said that the cause of the forensic pathologist and the medical investigator both said that the cause of death was ligature strangulation. They said that a rope had been wrapped tightly around her neck uh about four times they

could tell by the marks they said the note contained two two knots uh one after the third loop around the neck and then another after the fourth loop so it was like looped and nodded and looped and nodded so it was really on there it was on there really really tight uh also they they uh they found uh they thought from the way everything was they thought that some of her hair may have been caught and tangled in the rope as well uh they also said the rope probably cut off the circulation of blood blood obviously the brain and that's the medical way that this person strangled there you go uh probably took between 30 seconds and a minute to cause her to lose consciousness and then they said it would take several minutes of strangulation to

cause the death so you really that's what i mean this is not an easy to strangle someone you gotta really want it you gotta want it and uh you either have to be such a fucking cold-blooded just killer that you that you can just blast through that or you have to have this an engulfing rage that lasts for minutes at a time while while you're extracting revenge which would seem like it would wear itself out i would think but you know that's that's just me i guess i'm not insane so that's the problem i guess i'm not a psychopath shit i mean in a fight like if you've never been in a fight when you're throwing fists with somebody, you don't realize how fucking fast you get tired. Oh, God, yeah.

If you don't for sure hate that person or you're in it for the money, you know what I mean, in boxing. Box for three minutes, which is a round. You want to die. You will be winded. Oh, yeah. To strangle somebody for that long. Someone who's fighting. Right.

Someone who's, and a 17-year-old girl, not someone who's, this isn't like an 82-year-old woman who was in a wheelchair or anything like that. This is someone who's stout. This is somebody who's got the willpower to live. She can go walk a couple miles and be fine. You know, that's the, she's physically stout. The amount of energy this takes to do and complete is fucking just bananas. Oh, absolutely.

Now, based on the condition that she was in at the time she was discovered the medical examiner uh investigator testified that the she probably died the same day she disappeared but they can't pinpoint an exact time of death they just say that would be consistent with that also they said the condition of the crime scene suggests that she had been killed somewhere else and then dumped there uh before when she was discovered uh you know in that location so i think it was not really staged but they don't she dumped he dumped her there and then put the place the jacket over her and that's all you know part of uh how you do your thing yeah that's all that's all john douglas the profiler

guy of the mind hunter book always says if you want to know about the artist, look at the painting. And that's kind of what it is. It's like, don't worry about the good profilers. They don't want to know anything about who you think did it. They just want to know, show me crime scene photos. Show me what he did. I don't want to know about your this or that or anybody else. Just show me that, and we'll work backwards from there.

And that's kind of, you can see like that. So they think that she was dumped there. There was a boot print in the soil beneath her body. Now, the the the state says that this evidence suggests that the killer left the boot print when he carried her to the location, obviously. Now, March 1994, after Sandra was found, back to Alan here, back to our awful, awful Tim Allen, the carnival worker with mental problems and a long criminal record of violence and everything else. And a grunt of, uh, uh. Yeah, and he was grunting all over, annoying everybody in town, looking over his neighbor's fence, but doing it like while he's jerking off, not looking for advice. But doing it like while he's jerking off, not looking for advice. So after she's found, Tim Allen has a conversation with his wife's stepfather where he says that he saw her.

Now he says he saw Sandra hitchhiking near a bar and restaurant in Flora Vista. So now she's hitchhiking all of a sudden, which doesn't make any sense. And he says that he stopped to pick her up and he offered her a ride into Aztec, quote, to do some applications there or something. Yeah. Which they mean job applications, not to invent some apps for the younger people out there and actually fill out job applications. That's a dumb statement to make.

Yeah. Why are you putting her in your car? Dummy. That doesn't seem smart. He also then explained that she had become very and now he's telling like the story to him why bring it up you know to the stepfather to his wife's stepfather he says that sandra became very angry and insisted on being let out at the convenience store in flora vista which he had brought up earlier that's where he says he saw her from he said that he bought her a soda and a candy bar to calm her down what is she six she's 17 years old and the last time he saw her was at the convenience store he just told her look here

take take a take a snickers and chill out and i'll let's part ways and apparently he says that she was cool with that and the last time he saw her was at that convenience store. He also told several other people, not just the wife's stepfather, that he talked to her, either talked to her or gave her a ride on the day of her disappearance. What was he doing? Anyone that will listen, he's like, I saw that girl. They're like, which girl? The missing one. You know what I'm talking about.

I saw her. The dead one? I saw her. Yeah, that's right. On the day. Gave her a ride and everything. Did you say the day. Gave her a ride and everything. Gave her a ride and everything. Nobody knows she's dead yet.

So she did. Don't worry about it. I saw her. I'm sure of it. He told one of these people that he had talked about his marital problems with this 17 year old girl and that she gave him a sympathetic response and that he may have asked her if she wanted to go have a beer. Okay.

Now, 17 year old girl that you picked up on the side of the road. Now, all of a sudden, he didn't tell his father-in-law that, but now he's saying that, yeah, she was open to talking to him. Now she's going to be a shoulder to fucking cry on for this dipshit. Well, she is stuck in his car after hitchhiking. Well, you know, in most 17-year-old girls, what they really want to hear about is an adult carnival worker's marital problems. That's how you get their attention.

They're into that. They want to hear about a dirtbag's problems. So, yeah, he said that he may have asked her if she wanted to go have a beer. He never was. And this is his thing, too. He tells different things to different people. Super weird. Also, he admits to somebody else that he said he wanted to give her a ride because she had red hair and he liked red hair.

He said she had red hair and she was young and good looking. And he dug that. looking and he dug that and he said that uh that non-verbal communications from her suggested uh that uh that she liked him and he said that uh he just but you know he was just looking to kind of pick up a girl so he's cruising around a town of 2 000 people looking to pick up a girl you're good luck dude a married carnival worker with a criminal record and fresh paperwork from the mental institution is cruising around looking for chicks to pick up on the street in a small town non-verbal clues like who are you quentin tarantino and dust till dawn like do you see her just like making the the blow job motion in the passenger seat what are you doing that's almost

verbal by the way it might as well it's more clear than that's any language that works in it's really tuck your tongue in your cheek yeah it's any language everybody so uh yeah he so he's looking at looking for good looking girls here uh his mother-in-law also around this time says that she noticed a scratch on his face and a bruise on his lip right around the time of the girl's disappearance. Back about a month and a half ago, I remember he had a bruise and a scratch. And I was thinking, what the hell happened? It looked like he got in a fight before.

Also, when they talked to him, the boots he's wearing, they see the boot print and they just noticed just on the eyeball test. This isn't like in the melted snow reebok thing like it was with the other case but just on the eyeball test it looked like pretty close to the same pattern of like yeah they're pretty i think they're just work boots like that's a pretty close pattern of the squares wolverine on the bottom yeah that's the one here now so he's starting to look a little shady for this now this isn't good no it doesn't look good for him. Also, they link him to a rope that they believe was used to strangle her. Okay. Now, several people said that the rope that they showed that strangled her had a distinct design and came from the back of a white pickup truck.

This is amazing. This is why small town murder is different than big city murder because a big city murder no one notices anything that's on anybody's car no one knows this notices anything several people in town recognized a rope as belonging to a certain truck that they've seen that's how small of a town this is and how little there is to do there stare at a mesa or match ropes to vehicles. That's their things that they, that's things to do. They said that it came from the back of a white pickup truck that belonged to Tim Allen's wife's grandfather. Okay.

Okay. That's not too much to, too deep. Okay. That's too close to Tim is what that is. It's a little too close to Tim. Also, these people said that the rope was kept in the back of the pickup truck and was used to restrain a trash barrel when the pickup was hauling trash to the dump. That was the normal thing that the rope was in the back of the truck for forever, for years. It's always back there. And that's what he.

Now, the problem is Tim Allen was seen driving this white pickup truck all in the week around the Sandra Phillips disappearance. And obviously, he's the grandson-in-law of the owner of the truck. So there's a lot of things that are looking awfully suspicious here. They also, oddly enough, a bunch of other witnesses also said that they observed Tim Allen extensively cleaning the cab of the pickup several times in the days after Sandra Phillips disappeared. This is a truck with a with a rope in the back that hauls trash right so it's not a truck that you clean detailing that it doesn't get detailed very often i'm gonna go ahead and say here so now if that's not enough now they still

he's still on the street they don't have enough to pick him up they just have all of these very circumstantial very coincidental things very. But very well lined up. That line up pretty goddamn well. And a man probably full of rage that the Tim Allen is on TV at this date. Oh, yeah, yeah. Killing it. Just crushing. And he's like, when he ever gives his name, we're like, Tim Allen? He's like, no.

I work in a carnival, actually. I make like... See that truck? That's not even mine. I made six grand last year. And that was a good year like i was it was a banner one for me i don't even run the tilt the world i don't even i'm i'm working my way up i know how to do the assisting on it but i can't actually i'm not

actually the one that makes sure everyone's secure what do i do right now i hand out potato sacks for the kids going down the big slot either that or i'm the one that rigs those little frog lily pads when you throw the ball on them so they don't stay that's i'm the guy who does that i'm the one that that robs people yeah that's what i do that's the other thing about carnival workers is they are the most dishonest people in the world and they're known from it it's so funny like everything like in uh all the all the terminology in like wrestling yeah is from the carnival all like they call the fans marks because the fucking marks of the carnival we're stealing from you're stealing yeah we're faking them out that's the whole point that's these people are just just swindling swindling fucks oh and they

also get teenagers to rob concession stands so yeah things happen like that so uh one night and they all fuck each other oh they all fuck each other it's like they're making more yeah oh god it's like a low iq olympic village it's like a shit genetics olympic village because they're all in there together they're all doing like this little road show but the genetics in there are awful the day after they all ran out of condoms. Yeah, it turns into that. So during the summer of 1994, so this is a few months later, five, six months later, he's still out there. He is with his wife, and they're working at a carnival in another state, of course, because that's what they do. So he says to his wife, now keep in mind, he doesn't have to say anything more to anybody about anything. He's said enough. Yeah, keep in mind, he doesn't have to say anything more to anybody about anything. He said enough.

Yeah. Why are you still talking? He says now to his wife. Now, unprompted, by the way, this is months later. She's not like she's grilling him about this shit. As they're unbuckling kids off the. Yeah. It's like, let me let me tell you something.

Here's your teddy bear, sweetheart. Here's your pink bunny, darling. He says, quote, that he was with this girl and he had sex with her and that after he had sex, after they had sex, that she said she was going to the cops and so that he had to kill her then, he said. So he told his wife that he had sex with a young girl and then said she was going to go to the cops and so he had to kill her. That's what he said.

Now, his wife tells, why would you tell your wife that three more and you get the big giraffe yeah uh she was dead i left uh i strangled her good you know that rope your dad got in her truck you know that right there that's three for a dollar there you go step on up step right up what are you about i'd say 155 okay so he's a weight guesser in case you didn't get that so let me tell you about the eyes popping out of the head while i was strangling it took me about seven minutes to strangle her and the horse number seven oh yeah we he just hold the trigger down till the clown's head fills up whichever pops first gets this whatever the fucking piece of shit animal thing is there you

go stuff it's got lice on it, so it don't even matter. Hey, whoever wins gets this vehicle to get bedbugs into your house. I rubbed it on my ass like three times already today. Poop and lice and crabs all over. Sweet fuck. So he tells her that. So she goes and tells her mother about that, which I don't know. Who else would you tell at that point?

My husband said he had sex with a teenage girl and then killed her that's something you'd want to tell your mom probably tell the police but what eventually the mother did to tell the police okay because this was a big deal that this six 17 year old girl is missing in a town of 2 000 people that just went to the middle of town and disappeared like that was an application to fill out applications and there's posters everywhere this was a big fucking deal so uh now police investigators asked him about this statement they asked they talked to him this is how much time goes by february she disappears summer she talks to uh he talks to his wife and tells her that he killed her december 27th they talked to him again so this is almost a year that's gone by now they

asked him about the statement again and he said that he lied to his wife because we all lie to our wife by telling them that we cheated on them that's the lie you want to tell i've cheated on you and killed a girl that's a good lie that's going to get me some points what's the strategy there to that lie i was just trying to turn her on because we're so close to the four corners i wanted to munch her box up there you know how them four corners excite me you know i hate them mormons and i'm like i'm gonna munch that box all up in your state i thought she would be turned on by it that seems to get her real wet jesus christ with the h exactly the wit terrible fucking terrible so this happened then he tells

he tells them look i was lying to my wife uh now he also tells another person around this time that he was just kidding when he made that statement for sure that's how we all kid you know the teenage girl that was missing i raped and killed her that's a that's a funny joke that we all tell our spouses hysterical that thatical. That gets you something. Some kind of points. I don't know what it is, but something. So they arrest him on December 29th. I don't know why it took them two days after that to arrest him, but it did.

They did. Now, he's detained in the San Juan County Detention Center. There, this fucking guy, I don't understand this guy. He just can't stop telling people things that he shouldn't fucking tell people who is he telling now he gets into jail and immediately like in the second he comes in contact with other inmates he just begins telling them shit he's like i killed that girl immediately just two that's it and two separate occasions he told that one inmate i killed that

girl quote i killed that girl and he so many people he told he forgot he told that guy the guy was like you already told me like that's what it literally literally was he's like you know that girl i killed her he's like i know you fucking said that already what are you bragging i killed that girl yeah i know i know i didn't ask you You asked me what I'm in for. Why are you answering your own question? Fucking dummy. So now on another occasion while he's in jail, he tells he tells another inmate that he had confessed to his lawyer and said that, quote, I wish I wouldn't have took. I wish I wouldn't have took taking that damn rope with me. Later, he told another inmate, quote, I'm going to tell you the truth.

I'm going to tell you what happened to the Sandra Phillips girl. And he says that he described her. This is what he described to this inmate. So we can kind of figure it out. This is according to him. Now, he said that he picked her up outside a bar in Flora Vista and took her up in the hills. Okay. Which makes sense to where this was. Now, took her up in the hills.

Now, he says that she was making moves on him. Yeah. Because that's probably likely. Yeah. That's what happens. When you pick a 17, when a carnival worker with mental problems picks a teenage girl up in a garbage hauling truck they usually can't stop grabbing your cock that's what happens that's why i will never pick up a teenage girl not because it's untoward because i know they'll try to fuck me because they all attack carnival workers

that's what they're doing it's's so difficult. They're everywhere. Unbelievable. So he says that she was, quote, making moves on him. And that so in response, he was, quote, making moves on her. And then after that, quote, some stuff happened. Yeah. I assume that's sexual stuff. Some stuff happened.

He said that he tied a rope around her neck because she likes it he said that he tied her up because she was quote cute and he wanted to make love to her oh boy so he tied a rope around her neck which is a good way to do it unless someone is begging you to do that i implore you do not do that no ropes no no just please use a little hand put a little handle i don't know i don't know what i don't want to tell people to do what turns them on people that are weird but be fucking careful out there if that's in reality but this is not a consensual no there's nothing about this is okay no this is a horrible person assaulting a teenager at this point the ropes away from the neck wow so he wanted to uh quote make love to her which is fucking disgusting

and also he said he liked to have control over people yeah which is uh okay and at this at that same point he's like look she's cute a i wanted to make love to her b i like to have control over people and and d my girlfriend and i we had a fight so i'm gonna get back at her okay by having sex with this 17 year old against her will yeah with a rope around her fucking neck wow uh he said that uh while she was tied up in the pickup truck and he was starting to quote make love for to her which no she quote just fell down or limped out he said and uh he said uh after she limped down i guess out of the truck i guess is what he's trying to say he said he got scared and tied the rope again uh so so he had it three times with a with a knot and then threw it around it again to do it again

just because he got scared because you know i don't know she was trying to get away because she's losing consciousness and limped out to me sounds like he was inside her and she just fucking lost consciousness in the back of the truck probably from lack of oxygen so he roped it again and kept going oh my god he took that as everything was going great and then she's just something weird. He was strangling a girl against her will while he raped her. He didn't say that part. That's what I mean. He doesn't seem to understand

that that's what was going on. Or maybe he does and he's not saying it, but whatever the fucking case is, he's not a good guy here. He says so. She just limped down. He says he got scared, tied the rope again,

and then at that point, he noticed that she was dead. So he's like, oh, shit, killed her. He pulled a, you know noticed that she was dead so he's like oh shit killed her he pulled a you know mice and men here so he's a little too hard started getting cold yeah weird and uh he said he was going to take her somewhere else uh to take to get rid of her but the road was too muddy so uh he picked her up and just carried her off to the side of the road and threw her in a ditch wow that's what he. And he said he threw the jacket on top and just fucking took off. And a parent has to fucking hear that story.

And a parent has to hear that story from an inmate that this guy was telling all about this shit, which is absolutely fucking nuts, man. Oh, Jesus. So they need a lot. They need proof here. Several months after this whole thing, the pickup truck in question was sold to somebody else. It was sold. And this person said that he found strands of red hair under a seatbelt strap on the day he purchased it, which is crazy because they had searched the truck and didn't find them.

The crime scene people searched. I mean, this is inept as shit. So he threw the hairs away after looking at them because he didn't know what they were they know he didn't know their evidence of a tree bought a fucking pickup truck and there's some hair down there so he took it off and threw it out that's gross like anybody you're like ew gross hair yeah and you throw it out somebody's hair you don't know that it was you know which makes it even grosser uh then uh so uh he didn't know there were any evidence. And also they went back again in January. Ninety five investigators went back and looked at the truck again.

And that's when he said, actually, when I bought the truck, I found a bunch of red hairs wrapped around the seatbelt thing. But I just threw him out because the fuck do I know? Nobody told me anything about that. So they said, OK, they searched it again. They didn't find anything. They returned the pickup truck to him. And then after they do that, the owner finds more strands of red hair. They missed it again. They didn't find anything. They returned the pickup truck to him. And then after they do that, the owner finds more strands of red hair.

They missed it twice. Twice. Two different parts. This whole fucking team. The only thing they're looking for is fucking red hairs. And they couldn't find it. And they couldn't find it.

Twice. And this other guy is like, I found red hairs again. Whole team. One guy. Okay. Wow. So he said he found more strands of red hair when he removed a

broken handle that was like a window roller there it was red hair or in the like the rolling gotcha like where the window back of the back in the day used to manually roll up a window and it was like a crank thing yeah in case you didn't know so he found him in that he found him in the crank of that they didn't search there when he took it off to fix it because it had been broken. Apparently at that point it had been broken. Because it was wrapped up with too much fucking hair. Well, the funny thing is, too, people, it's not funny, but people said that the window handle was not broken when Tim first borrowed the truck back in January of 94. The window rolled up just fine.

Then after that, the window roller was broken. Got it. And he was just like, yeah, it broke. And it's like, that's an old truck. It broke, whatever. But it would really break if you were struggling and trying to overcome a 17-year-old girl. A girl kicking and screaming. Against her will, this shit happens.

So the trial of this starts, obviously. He is charged with first degree murder, first degree kidnapping and attempted criminal sexual penetration. OK. All of those terrible charges. Not good. None of those are good charges. Attempted is a bit loose.

Yeah. Don't have proof. They don't have exactly. They don't have proof. But they knew that he tried. So this is a capital case. They're going for the death penalty, which in New Mexico is not very common. They're not a real big executing state in New Mexico.

Yeah, they choose. Juries opt for life in prison a lot there. Okay. Under hard circumstances and everything else, it's just not what they're about. So his lawyer, Tim's lawyer that he gets, has never tried a capital case before. Perfect. Which, that's just what you want when you're dealing with that. And he conducts no mental health investigation whatsoever of this man.

I mean, on the positive side, he's never lost one either. That's true. He is fucking batting 1,000, or at least zero. At least zero. He's at least even zero he's at least even he's at least over oh so uh uh he did no he had no mental i would think in a case like this right away first thing you would do if you're a defense lawyer is see if he's fucking crazy because that's that would be your easiest out like it'd be hard to deny it you're crazy you fucking hear things

or anything like that you hear voices uh, the prosecutor gets testimony from inmates left and right, saying that he killed her, saying all this shit. Another, one of the people that testifies here, an inmate, said that Tim told him that he broke into a house, set it to 74, and then had him on fucking after. Shit all over the place, and then fucking left. Son of a bitch. And the guy laughed and laughed. He couldn't even get it out in court the judge was laughing it was a disaster the jury was laughing they had to they had to take a five minute recess they told me about this animal cable let me tell you

74 no shit can you believe it amazing and yeah you got to be cold to stick it in there i don't know what it is he tells uh this inmate testifies that tim had told this inmate that he was going to quote beat this case which that's not that bad uh he also gets testimony the prosecutor gets testimony from another inmate who said that tim said that he confessed to his lawyer and from the first time uh from the very first from the first time he talked to his lawyer that he killed the guard the girl but that his lawyer had told him that all they had was circumstantial evidence and that if he just keeps his mouth shut that that the guy would get him off what are you doing so he's telling me that i told him i killed him but he just said keep your mouth

shut they don't have shit on you so you're gonna be good why are you talking stop talking to just inmates in the county jail who it's like oj sitting in there saying i i was told that if you pay a dream team you get off you get off they told me that oh okay yeah they said it's not they ain't got nothing there's a racist cop we got tapes of him saying the n-word don't worry about it so uh this line of questioning apparently the uh defendant did not uh their his team tim's team didn't object in a soon enough time to this questioning so they let it go on.

I guess technically he could have got this part thrown out. Well, just never introduced in the first place. Later on, he'll say that that was a problem too. Another thing that he's going to say that the trial court messed up on here is by allowing the allowing testimony about the quote inmate code which they talk about

how inmates uh uh you know if they testify against other people obviously that's putting themselves in their safety in jeopardy clearly and uh the prosecutor says that uh uh the prosecutor told them that these inmate witnesses that were testifying were being very brave because they could, quote, get a shank in them. So which is, I think, fair to say, probably that's not going over the top. But that's a big deal later on where he's going to say the prosecutor went outside the scope of what they are allowed to. But the prosecutor's line of questioning was only happened because the defense counsel repeatedly attacked the credibility of the inmate witnesses. So they had to come back and say, well, actually, they are getting whatever consideration, but they're also risking their safety, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So that was the way they were trying to go about that. Yeah. During the opening statement, the defense counsel said, quote, the only people who are going to be pointing to Timothy and saying that he did it are jailhouse snitches. So defense counsel also raised the issue of their credibility during cross-examination. He questioned each of the witnesses about possible incentives that they have. So that would mean the prosecutor would have to say the other incentives that they have that aren't about time and getting off of trouble that they're in. During the closing argument, the defense counsel urged the jury not to base its verdict, quote, on the word of child rapers, liars, thieves and people hoping to get lesser sentences when they face judgment themselves. He led with child.

Yeah, he did. That was first. Yeah, I would have closed with child. I would have for sure. I would have said liars and thieves people hoping to get lesser sentences these people are child rapists that's how i would now that's i think that's the most weight that's how your comedian would put it right there that's damning boom that's a oh you want the punch line at the end oh man you're sinking home there leave them fucking wondering that's how you roll so rapist

by the time you get to thieves and people getting time off their sentence you forget that they were child rapists yeah and he said child rapers right you say child rapist rapist almost like hasn't sounds like you're saying he's got some sort of fucked up art to it or some weird shit but just child raper just sounds like he goes from house to house raping everybody you can find. Just really forcing it. It's awful. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about True Car. Truecar.com.

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Yeah, that's true. At TrueCar.com. And now, back to the show. The evidence here, they said that he's upset, the defense is upset because the prosecution, they just bring up tons of people saying he's a shithead. Yeah. They bring up, this is great, somebody's grandfather, a friend of his grandfather that he'd been arrested for, that he'd stolen money from. They basically said, did he steal money from your grandfather? Yes, he did.

Okay. He's a scumbag. He stole money from my grandpa. Also that he'd been arrested for dui and all that kind of shit uh they talked about how he was a carny yeah and they also talked about how uh carnies are are liars typically fucking swindlers yeah they also said that he he had told people uh prior to his arrest and then after his arrest that he had been prepared to quote shoot it out with the police wow so they put that on the stand too you know that's another point that i just thought of there's never a manager of a carnival no never you've no one wants to take responsibility for that when the tilta world goes fucking rolling down main street and they go

who's in charge here you think anyone wants to raise their fucking hand hell no there's no manager on shift no manager no he took off i don't know he's an albuquerque so he said uh also his wife testified that that uh his carnival work that tim's carnival work involved talking to customers and quote tricking their minds so lying to people and bullshitting people which makes it their tricking their minds his phrasing is such shit. That's her phrasing. Oh, hers. That's her phrasing. It runs in the family.

It's his wife. That's why they're together. Sexually transmitted. Yeah, sexually transmitted stupidity. So, an STS. So, watch out for that, everybody out there. They're everywhere, STSs. Jesus Christ. there they're everywhere sds is oh man so uh he said that uh he told police that he he said that

the carnival work was an at issue this is funny because he's saying that they shouldn't have brought that up but then he was the one who brought up that the carnival work was an issue because he told police that he avoided sandra the victim when he saw her on the day of her disappearance because she looked him directly in the eye he said that he explained he would always avoid people who looked him directly in the eye based on his carnival experience because everyone knows you never look a carny in the eye i don't know what the fuck that means everyone no one knows shit what is that they look me in the eye i'm forced to tell the truth so i I. Yeah. Please don't. Please don't play this game. I just spread Pam all over it.

But that's what he said, though. He said that that's that's what it was. It was people, you know, he knew not to. I don't know what the fuck he's doing. Ridiculous. And then they get a doctor. A Dr. Matthews calls. It's called to testify.

It's a statement attributed to uh timothy by one of the inmate witnesses now he testified this inmate witness that he asked tim why he killed the girl and that he replied quote i don't know it was like i was standing outside of my body watching myself do this okay which sounds like a really typical that's pretty much what everybody says like i don't know it was just the weirdest thing i don't remember those 10 minutes it was like slow motion i wasn't even in control of my body it was like i was standing outside i've heard every killer so literally every murderer says that okay so this dr matthews guy reviews this testimony and his conclusion is that uh timothy what he was he was describing a dissociative, and he didn't know what it was,

and dissociative experiences are a common way of dealing with situations that are stressful and that sort of thing. He also says that a dissociative experience doesn't necessarily indicate a medical condition that would negate his capacity to deliberate intent to kill or anything like that. So he's still, even if he had that experience, you're saying he's still responsible, the doctor said.

It doesn't mean he's not responsible. At minimum, it incriminates further because it proves that you know the difference between right and wrong. It's so wrong, in fact, that you're removing yourself from it saying, I just watched myself do it. I just watched myself. It was weird.

I'm not a bad person. No, it's like that time the Ferris wheel broke and all them kids was just diving off the top and falling and necks were a breaking. I saw that one get smushed. It was like I was jerking it, you know, because it was what I'm into. But it was like I wasn't jerking myself. It was like someone else was jerking me from the outside. One of them toddlers was, you know, I was hugging. Yeah.

So there there's some testimony that he is going to make a big deal out of on appeal later on now this is this it's very very very detailed of of sandra phillips mother's reaction to the news of her daughter's death and uh all that sort of thing here they talked to uh they talked to uh lacy the friend lacy minor and she describes this she said she describes walking to the house she says she got about halfway there and she stopped and said she can't she can't because the cops were like the cops were having her tell her wow the cops were like look you should tell her yeah listen she is gonna be pissed when we tell her i know this is my job twice but you should tell her no this is after they found the body oh you have to tell her she's dead and And they were like, well, first of all, that's not your job as the friend. But I guess she said she wanted to and then said that what I would say if I'm Lacey is

motherfucker. I didn't find the body. Well, they called her. Tell her they called her at work. The cops called her at work and said, can you meet us at the Phillips house in 15 minutes? Get out. And she said when they got there, the deputy Chevrolet told her, quote, now you have to go in and tell Darlene.

Pardon. Excuse me. No, no, thanks. She said that, quote, I cannot go in and tell her her daughter is dead. I cannot do that. So he said he would do it. We went into the house. She said Darlene had had an appointment with the sheriff's deputy.

So she didn't think it was strange that he was there. And she thought that Lacey was there for support because she was going to talk to him and she could have her input blah blah blah so uh she said they walked in and greeted her and uh she said she the mother could tell that there was something wrong right away and so they had to tell her that they found sandra's body and uh in court they said how did darlene react no and she said her answer was a great answer quote probably like any mother would react when some but whenever somebody tells them that their daughter's body had been found yeah yeah she was a little upset i would say uh she said then the cop said wouldn't she do to detective detective our deputy chevery the answer is that she started hitting him in the chest and

she started asking him why and who and then went outside i guess she ran away like darlene ran she's freaking out exactly what you fucking blame her she didn't know what to do uh so the friend said she followed her uh lacy and her sister stayed in the house while uh her lacy sister stayed in the house while she went outside and found darlene uh she said she was running around the driveway crying kind of doing like a frantic you know whatever losing her shit yeah she said she uh she wouldn't let her hug her or do anything like that she was yelling and screaming and neighbors were coming out of the house and i mean she's making a fucking scene which you can only only imagine uh that she would uh she just describes this horrible horrible scene she said that they had to start calling relatives in phoenix

and started making travel arrangements so everybody could get here so they could have some kind of fucking some kind of uh service and they went to her sisters and they got beds and pillows and blankets because all these people are going to come into town now for this and they said they went to sam's club and bought food so they also have to deal with like logistics of there's people coming over we don't have any chicken wings on top of the fact that the kid's fucking dead like when you have to deal with all that shit is there enough toilet paper oh and darlene's dead or xander's dead it's a fucking lot uh it's it's been crazy so uh they said the father has had a lot of problems also uh uh he says he feels extremely guilty uh just the whole thing is is everyone feels horrible about this uh they

said that uh that uh the darlene has been just a mess since uh since the daughter is dead she said she kept her her room the same for you know eight months afterwards which is you know i i don't know how that's got to be heartbreaking what do you do in that situation though anyway that's what i mean i'm not going in there it's i mean it's so heartbreaking keeping it it's the same it's just fuck i'm not gonna yeah no yeah do you want you're gonna go take stuff down and like unpaired pull down a debbie gibson poster yeah no thanks no thanks that's what i mean i don't know what's 94 we'll give her more credit than that but still it's the flora vista actually so she probably just came out. A few years behind.

Yeah, Debbie Gibson just came out there. They're like, wow, she's hot. She's a hot new young artist, isn't she? She's three years away from being in Playboy. Yeah. So she kept it that way until September of that year, which is very, very sad. So they talked to her. I only gave you the broad brushstrokes here.

She went into just everything, detail after detail of everything the mother did, every emotion of every family member, her emotions. I mean, it was like a victim impact statement wow during testimony as her testimony which is uh you know that's not uh that's that's a problem sometimes so that that's going to be later on a problem but for for one side yeah that's an issue so uh in the closing arguments the defense contends that it was misconduct for the prosecutor to argue that the jury should return its verdict based on improper considerations such as community outrage, because they say that this is outrageous and your kids aren't safe. And they really gassed the jury up when they go in there.

They said that, quote, this is the stuff that we as parents fear for our children. And then and this they need and a need for a stern message from you that this conduct won't be tolerated. It's the typical prosecutor thing of send a message. Is that what they do? Oh, fuck yeah. They tell you send a message to that guy. He represents the evils of society, and if you bury his dick in the dirt,

it's a message to all of the people out there. That's what they tell him. Wow. So the verdict comes back guilty. Not shocking here that it's guilty. He's told everyone on earth that he killed this girl. Fucking physical evidence and hairs and ropes and things and his enemas fucking out the yin yang so uh he is guilty now uh sentencing uh the only evidence of mitigating circumstances

because now this is when the defense has to present don't kill me because a b and c the only defense they they present during this, they call no witnesses. They don't do anything. It consists of a brief allocution and a stipulation regarding his age. He was 34 years old. So, like, he's only 34. Don't kill him. That was the only thing they had, which is not like that's a better argument if he's, like, 18.

He's only 18. He's only 34. They're like, whatever. That's fine. 34 is fine to kill. Like, who cares? Wasn't like 36 i mean who gives a shit domer was who cares we don't care so uh not the death penalty domer didn't get the death penalty but still so anyway uh he's 34 years old they present basically no kind of did sort of yeah basically so they they present basically no defense of uh during the in the penalty phase here of the death penalty.

The mother, though, his mother testifies for the prosecution. His own mother, Wanda Lindberg, who's his mother, the same one that said that he punched his pregnant sister and all that shit. That's where she says this in court. He punched his pregnant sister, pushed her down the stairs, all of that shit. The mitigating evidence side? No, this is for the prosecution. Yeah, of that shit mitigating evidence side this is this is no this is for the prosecution she's doing yeah this is his mitigating evidence thanks mom he said that uh she testifies that her that alan or tim told her that she he had seen uh sandra and gave her a ride the day she died so he says she says that also she said that he is

incorrigible and quote that the death penalty would keep him from hurting anyone else his own fucking mother said that how shitty of a person do you have to be for your mother to just be like i just kill him i don't even know he's gonna kill him he's gonna kill again. It's going to happen. Give up on him. Give up on my kill my son. Kill the boy. Kill my boy. Come on. String him up. Kill my boy. String him up.

Come on, everybody. Get behind this. It's fucking nuts. So crazy. So one of the prosecutor closings, because there's a couple of rebuttals and all that, he says, quote uh the prosecutor says quote don't take rides from strangers don't accept candy from strangers the story of sandra phillips is the stuff we can tell our children or our grandchildren because it's the agony and the

horror of every parent uh then he goes on to talk about in his closing just about the anguish of the mother they played a video in court of like just a video of her like hanging out with her friends and like i think they were on like an elk hunting trip or some shit and all this and she's a happy teenage kid and so they're like this is the life that he snuffed out the joyous life of this so it's that's that's that's some damning shit right there so uh they talked all about this shit they talked in detail basically everything that lacy minor said that darlene went through all the anguish that whole thing he just reiterated all of it in the closing again you know fucking jurors are crying and shit because it's make it sting and

then said you can stop it by putting people like him and you know like i mean all of this can be solved by just crushing him so uh yeah, he makes all these remarks. He says nothing will bring Sandra back, but there is still justice. A verdict of guilty and a death penalty is what he wants. Now, the defense closing arguments here, theirs had a religious theme. They talked about remarks about leaving the defendant's life, quote, in God's hands. Because, quote, a long time ago, a man died on a cross, and his final words about his killers were words of forgiveness.

That is not a good closing argument of defense. But I guess that's not guilty or innocent. He's saying, don't kill my client. So that's actually go. You might want to go with the Jesus forgiveness shit here at that point. I'd really like to hear some words of forgiveness from this guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's giving nothing.

No, no, he's giving nothing. He's offering jack shit. No, he's just denying what he said. Yeah, he's a fucking idiot. So he says this, and after he says this, there's a bench conference and everything, and they give the jurors this instruction. Quote, any suggestion that you as a jury have some obligation to express a particular

opinion on a case through your verdict or to carry any kind of message through your verdict is totally inappropriate which is good. This case may be decided upon the facts that you have before you in this court and not any play upon your desire to please a public or to

carry out a particular aim of society deal with this case on its facts in the manner of which i've instructed you putting aside your bias and prejudices and deciding the case solely upon what you've heard and uh they went to deliberate didn't take long before they came back with a verdict on life without parole or the death penalty and they they said, you, sir, may fuck off. And they sentenced him to death by lethal injection. Holy shit. There. Now, this is weird.

New Mexico, not a big death penalty state. Since 1979, juries have only returned 12 death sentences. Is it 79? This was from 79 to 98. They had only brought down 12 death sentences and uh only two of two of them were still on death row uh five of them were commuted by a governor in the 80s and then three were overturned by the state supreme court uh which is uh yeah that's a that's a an issue so that's why the death penalty is kind of shitty yeah only two

stuck but three were overturned for reasons that that's that's not a good ratio not good enough uh to do that three out of 12 that's a that's a third or fourth yeah that's crazy it's fucking 25 percent of your shit's getting overturned that's not good that means you might have fucked up and out of the ones that got overturned maybe one of them didn't actually do it which is still enough that's one out of 12 is too many way too many if you're killing every 12 people one of them didn't actually do it, which is still enough. That's one out of 12 is too many. If you're killing every 12 people, one of them that didn't do it, not a good enough ratio. He didn't do well enough. So it's not good police work at all.

No, or good prosecution. We should say that's why we are real sketchy on the death penalty, because as much as we like to see assholes get killed, who know, like last week, everybody watched this guy torture a person. He was on the phone going, hey, I'm torturing this guy torture a person he was on the phone going hey i'm torturing this dude now then literally would hold the phone out and go tell them i'm torturing you he's torturing me see i'm torturing him and then he killed him and he's like yeah i just killed that dude yeah the dude i was torturing forever i can't tell you he killed him

no question there's no questions about that one that's fine but like this this is weird and we'll talk about why in a second briefly that i'm also a little sketchy on this particular case. Darlene Phillips, the mother of Sandra's mother, said that the death penalty is, quote, too good for him. She said it's not over yet, but at least we know he can't hurt anyone else. That was the most important thing. No family should have to go through this, which fuck. Yeah, obviously. Now, on appeal, uh obviously he's going

to appeal death sentences here uh he def he challenges all sorts of shit 10 grounds here prosecutorial misconduct insufficient insufficient evidence of aggravating circumstances uh jury selection errors refusing to uh submit lesser included offenses all of this shit insufficient evidence to support kidnapping a bunch of bullshit basically uh cumulative error just they just fucked everything up is what he said uh he said that uh uh mainly it's the inmates uh the inmates testimony saying that he said he would beat the case because he talked to his lawyer and admitted it and his lawyer told him this his his uh assertion here is that well if i if i'm

talking about a conversation i had with my lawyer then that's confidential and you can't elicit that through somebody else no that's what they're trying to get but yeah i mean you get client confidentiality agreements but when a third party's involved right then you've waived it at that point that's what they say once you've told someone else then you've waived your privilege at that point now he knows as much as someone else it's you've waived your privilege at that point. Now he knows as much as someone else. It's telling your buddy you got ball cancer

and your buddy goes and tells your boss you got ball cancer. Your doctor didn't disclose the information. No, that's what I mean. You told him and it's not the problem.

Jesus. So that's what they did there. Also, the defendant's prior bad acts, he said that that shouldn't have been introduced into it, but the way they did it was the crime he did in 1982.

They they tried to say the state introduced evidence on him by calling the victim of that crime to talk about him in the penalty phase, because you can bring that up in the penalty phase. He says that that should have weighed in his favor because he didn't kill her. That's what he said. He's like, so that should have been a pro for me. Like, if I rape a chick, I don't kill her. That's my policy. You know, live rape victims only. Fucking insane.

Listen, not killing and raping is very similar as the Kohl's we don't need your receipt policy. It's just policy. It's just store policy. It's how we run things around. It's how it works. I don't know. Also, he's upset at the background evidence given by his wife about working in a carnival and his general tricking people's minds. That's bullshit.

And also the statement that he made to his wife that he'd raped and killed a girl because he was only kidding that day. Jesus Christ. Also, the defendant's the friend's grandfather he stole money from and all that. He talked about the DWI arrest. The court says they were brief inadvertent statements and they weren't responsive to a prosecutor's question. So it wasn't like the prosecutor was eliciting this on purpose. Somebody just came out and said it. brief inadvertent statements and they weren't responsive to a prosecutor's question. So it wasn't like the prosecutor was eliciting this on purpose. Somebody just came out and said it.

So there's that. He also asserts that medical records were not not. It's weird. The way that he's saying that the way the prosecutors got his medical records was not on the up and up, which is very, very strange. He acted. The court actually agrees on that that the confidential medical records and the issue were not not a proper subject of discovery it's a very legal mess but it's actually one that he's he's actually kind of uh right on here but they

just don't know if we'll find out if it's enough to overturn a death sentence uh also the kidnapping thing he says listen kidnapping as an aggravator to the murder that's bullshit yeah i kidnapped her to fucking rape her i didn't kidnap her to kill her so it's not the same thing it's not a continuous thing so she was hitchhiking so she got in on her own so she kind of got it on her own so i didn't kidnap i mean i held her while i raped her and then i killed her but those are separate i didn't kidnap her to kill her. That's fucking nuts. What am I, crazy person?

So working a carnival, you're a carny worker. So he also says that there's not a sufficient evidence of murder in the commission of kidnapping. It's just fucking ridiculous. Anyway, it's affirmed the sentence. You tell him, fuck you again. You fuck off again. It's affirmed the sentence. You say, tell him, fuck you again.

You fuck off again. But with dissent, there is a one justice in the state Supreme Court who has a blistering dissent of this, basically saying how the fuck he says. This is the beginning of it. Quote, in my view, and contrary to the majority opinion, which I love when they start like that. I was really hoping that he was going to say how the fuck. Yeah. How the fuck he says, quote, the impact, the victim impact evidence in this case was excessive and warrants a new sentencing here and hearing even under the pain standard portions of the victim impact testimony which in my opinion far exceeded

the limited testimony tolerable under the law of pain so he's saying that that whole thing was way too much to allow he deserves a new sentencing hearing because that jury was tampered by tainted by that shit. 2000. He. So they say that's only a majority opinion, a minority opinion. So that doesn't matter. That sentence affirmed. He's on the hook now.

By the way, there are three. There was him and there's a guy named Robert Fry that we'll talk about who's on death row. And then they executed a guy named Terry Clark, I believe, who was a child murderer. This guy here. So there's two people waiting for death. In 2009, they abolished the death penalty in New Mexico. All gone. They abolish it.

No more. But they don't resentence the two guys sentenced to death. So they're in this fucking quandary now. What is that? They have two people sentenced to death in a state where the death penalty is abolished. So it's a big legal shoulder shrug. Everyone went, I don't know. Probably should have put that in the law, huh?

I mean, it's only two guys, so they didn't even think of it. Hang on to them. What the fuck do we do now? You can't kill them. Just hang on to them. No, but the prosecutors want to kill them still. And, you know, they keep bouncing around. It's a legal question that's been going on for five...

This was 2009. We'll tell you about this. September 2014, New Mexico's remaining death row inmates ask the state's highest court to spare them for potential execution because of the repeal of capital punishment. It's just Timothy Allen here and Robert Fry who contend their death sentences violate state and federal constitutional protections because New Mexico abolished capital punishment in 2009. The state Supreme Court are supposed to hear arguments, but a decision may be months away. This is in 2004, mind you.

But a decision may be months away. This is in 2004, mind you. Neither of them have a scheduled execution also. So that makes it even harder because then they'd have to have the whole workings of scheduling one. They've dismantled their death rows and all that kind of thing. So what the fuck do you do with these two people? So what are they? Are they in like gen pop or are they on death row?

It's crazy. The attorney general, Gary King, who represented the state, says the death sentences are constitutional and should remain in place. The legislature's decision to apply the repeal to future murders, quote, furthers the longstanding policy of ensuring that criminals are punished according to the laws that existed at the times of their crime, is what the attorney general is saying. So they're like, listen, these are the laws at that time. So we need to do that. So we should do it based on those rather than the laws that are currently in place i agree that's how we all do things we all do things based on whatever was going on 25 years ago that's how you rules was then that's how you bet no we are i believe it's current laws how we work things but still uh a good jesus christ a group of uh university of new mexico i kind of agree with the ga itA., though. It's funny there. G.A.?

What is that? Attorney General? I think it's Assistant Attorney General. A group of University of New Mexico law professors and the New Mexico Criminal Defense Lawyers Association are supporting the latest legal challenge brought by these two. Their quote is that, quote, these capital sentences are political vestiges of an abolished state system of death. Capital sentences are political vestiges of an abolished state system of death. New Mexico has no compelling interest in distinguishing Mr. Allen and Mr. Fry from future defendants who will escape execution because of repeal. Yes.

The last execution was in 2001. That was Terry Clark, who's a child killer. And that execution was the first in the state in 41 years. Wow. So they're not into it. They've executed one guy in 50 years. And then they're now they're trying to execute two. They want to keep these death sentences of two guys while there's no death penalty. It's really difficult.

But in 2016, their governor at the time was Susana Martinez here. She found it politically. She found a little crack in a political landscape to say if i say i like the death penalty this is good for me right now and this is the reason why we have problems with the death penalty because it's not it's it's a political thing more than anything and that's what's the what the problem is sizing death is it's weird and she says she intends to, in 2016, intended to seek reinstatement of New Mexico's death penalty. This was the day after the shooting death of a police officer. So everyone was pissed off.

She came out the next day and said, this is horrible. This is why I'm going to seek to reinstate the death penalty and used that. Used a fucking poor cop's death as bullshit for her. And maybe he likes the death penalty. Maybe his family does whatever it doesn't fucking matter the governor shouldn't use that to try to score some cheap political points and that's what he did after that's what she did the day after the day after right body's still warm what a bitch doesn't care yeah she was coming right out and doing it and uh

and two she tried to like insert it into a state legislative session but she tried to do do it haphazardly and quickly so it wasn't put together correctly even. To have a law, you have to have a structure of how it works. You can't just say, we should kill people and they write, people going to die now, and then they pass that as a law. There's a whole procedure and a setup and an appeal system and housing and where you're going to kill them. Who's going to do it? Who do you hire out? Where do you get the drug? There's a whole fucking thing you have to plan.

When you're killing human beings, you know, in a big plan, even the mob takes a minute to make a plan about it. They don't just write, kill Johnny and then hand it to a guy. Even the Nazis talk about it. That's what I'm saying. Fuck, man. That's what I'm saying. Fuck, man. So in 2018, this year, April of 2018, they still hadn't decided from 2014. They listened to two more hours of oral arguments with a ruling still likely to be maybe a year away. So this is still not ruled on. The attorney general's office urged the court to stick closely to the 1980s era guidelines for reviewing proportionality of death sentences. Like, let's stick to that thing from like 30, 40 years ago. I think that's where we want to be. Remember when Billy Joel was on the radio?

You remember, don't you? When Phil Collins was popular. Remember that? Remember when Phil Collins had hair? Let's talk about that. Remember when women wanted to fuck Phil Collins? Remember how weird that was? Yeah, that time.

You know what I'm talking about. So the Attorney General here, Assistant AG Victoria Wilson said that Phil Collins' road gash bucket was full. Full. Overflowing. Full. He had to give it away. He had to give some to Genesis.

Throw it out to seals. Here you go, Peter Gabriel. I don't know anybody else in genesis's name so i'm gonna go nobody else does either i don't think any of it matters really so uh this uh assistant ag uh victoria wilson said that uh that the the limits of consideration that that limits consideration to all it's only to other murder cases within the state that are virtually the same aggravating circumstances. She said the deliberation should primarily focus on whether the death sentences were applied with good reason and not arbitrarily. Also, they're also deciding whether a law that is in place now supersedes a law that used to be in place. That's the other thing they're deciding, which is the main thing.

Most of the time when you're grandfathered into a law, it's for something good. You know what I mean? Like, hey, no more putting that color flower in the homeowners association, but you had them before. So your grandfather, then you can keep your pink flowers, not fucking grandfathered him with the death penalty. That's kind of rough. So all this is still going on.

So hopefully, maybe, possibly at some point in the future here we will have an update on whether or not this fucking guy or is commuted not only him but his friend robert fry not his friend but the other guy there's two defendants and robert fry is the other one and i swear to christ right now podcasters on the sound of my voice if any of you fucking touch that guy i'll hunt you down and break your fucking legs he's mine understand he's fucking mine i found him and i'm gonna fucking do an episode on him and you guys can eat fucking dicks and find your own shit so this robert fry he's a fucking menace this guy and on his psychological report because he has a big psychological report from a university that's how much of a nut he is in his psychological report because he has a big psychological report from a university that's how much of a nut he is

in his psychological report it credits credits Jesus Christ it is listed that he murdered Sandra Phillips in Flora Vista in 1994 but it lists her age difference so I'm like there's no way there was two

Sandra Phillips that were two years apart that were both strangled in 1994 the weirdest part is that you've got two guys in the same same vicinity in this farmington this guy's from now this guy also both on death row and he's credited with killing him yeah he killed like four people robert fry some of them in the same way of this especially a woman that he killed, kidnapped from outside a convenience store and ended up beating her with a sledgehammer, tried to cut her head. He did all this horrible shit to her. We'll talk about it when we do an episode on it eventually.

But good Christ, horrible shit he did. And that was only one of the murders he did. And then there was a bunch of others. He was suspected that he just would pick up native guys that were like, you know, drunk or something. And they would fucking, you know, brutalize them them sometimes kill them and leave them in the desert like this was just a really really bad guy he had a couple different accomplices and all this but they attributed this to him and when you look at it you're like fuck it makes i know this guy probably

did it but it makes so much more sense that the other guy did it. It just does. He's in the area. It's what he does. He's a sick motherfucker. But this guy says he did it so much. Why would he keep telling everyone he did it if he didn't do it? That's what bothers me. It bothers me that there's no DNA here. That's a little annoying. The truck thing with the rope and all that,

that's pretty solid stuff. And the hair and the thing. All the fucking thing. That's pretty solid. But if he didn't tell, I don't know, everyone he ever met that he did it, I would be really weirded out by this, you know, just by the physical evidence because it's like, shit, that's physical evidence. But it could be circumstantial to blah, blah, blah.

But he's his own worst nightmare. Telling everyone. I would if it was just the other inmates, I'd say fucking jailhouse snitches are most of the time full of shit because they are. You're telling the wife's stepdad. He told his wife. Yeah, that's another point. He said he fucked her and killed her. That's what he told me.

So, like, yeah, so that's that. He told everyone he could fucking find, anyone within the sound of his voice. He went up atop a mesa and said, everyone, please. I killed this girl. People of Flora Valley. People of the Valley. Lend me your ears. Vista, whatever.

This Flora Vista. Lend me your ears. So that's what I mean. So this this Robert Fry guy is super, super interesting. And these two are really intertwined. And I wish this was like a fivehour show because i would love to do a fucking like a a little bit on both mashup but i was like man can we do that and i'm like it's gonna be too long but yeah i was thinking about just to say what do you think about this guy even

though this guy did it i still i want to sit them in a room together and i want to find out who the fuck did what yeah like because this can't be this guy's first time he did this don't no way he he tried to fuck he did that to a woman in 1982 and then didn't do anything until 1994 that's a long time it's a long time i realize he's had other legal problems but he's also had alcohol problems he was stopped he's also traveling with the car that's what i mean so much opportunity in other states who the fuck that's the thing about these carny workers is that they're gone the next day so who the fuck knows what they're thing about these carny workers is they're gone the next day. So who the fuck knows what they're doing?

They're like truckers, for Christ's sake. No offense, truckers. We have a lot of trucker listeners, but a lot of you are killing prostitutes. Let's be realistic here. This is the same thing, but worse. There's been way too many. One would say that's probably the most serial killer profession. It probably is.

Well, you're on a highway. Just get on and keep going. It facilitates the shit out of it. All the trucks look the same. No one notices. It's wild. all the trucks look the same no one notices it's it's wild same at every truck stop that's right well that right there is flora vista new mexico and the fucked up case of the well less bad tim allen well maybe not they're about even i would say they're going to be about equal these two uh but there that is one minus pamela anderson when she was hot yeah that's the one right there so if you like that show there's a few ways you can help us out and tell us that you can give us

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And I think right about now it's time to talk about the goddamn most amazing group of people who did just that, who actually went there and donated to us and made us feel special and to keep the lights on. Jimmy, why don't you do me a favor and hit me with that list? This week's executive producers are Amy Spicer, Laura Blakeslee, Barbara Johnson, Stern, Casey Pettit, Chrissy Ann Castaldi, Ryan Bobo, Carrie Clark, Sue Sparks. Thank you, guys. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Sue Sparks. Thank you, guys. You guys are fucking amazing. God, thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Wow, thank you. It's really just amazing. It's too much. Thank you, guys. People coming through like that is really fucking spectacular. We're blown away by it, really. Michaela Stafford, Emma Kaysen, Ryan Baer, Kirby Dotson, Lauren Demerath, Melissa Roper. Demerath sounds like a drug that they give you. Like, eh, doctor prescribed me Demerath. No, it's pretty good shit. It makes you feel good, Melissa Roker. Demerath sounds like a drug that they give you.

Like, eh, doctor prescribed me Demerath. No, it's pretty good shit. It makes you feel good, but you know. It's just a niche. It'll go away now. It's cool. Melissa Roker, Justin Inwood, Jillian Tuba, Charles Voque, Janice Hill, Shannon Feltus. She's been around a long time.

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Hewitt. Muriel Pelletierier. No. I was excited for you. I'm like, hey, good job. Muriel Pelletierier.ier it's French I'm sure of that that one just leaked out that's the best I could do

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I think so. Elizabeth Holzkamper. I think so. Elizabeth Holzkamper, Brian Toole, Courtney Cassidy, Jess Landgren. Oh, thanks, Jess. Thank you, Jess. Richard Hill, Nicole with no last name, just question marks. Barbara Pagani.

Barbara Pagani. She's been around a while, too, with us. Yeah. Thank you, Barbara. I don't know why I can't say Barbara. That's a very easy name. Krista Fleischer. Taylor Page Jennings.

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Oh, yeah, yeah. F-O-C-K-E. That could be Fock. Could be Fock. You're going Focker, like meet the parents. Did I say Focker? You said Focker. F-O-C-K-E.

There's no R. Fock. I don't know. I think it's Fock. Hey, Fock. What are you doing, Focky? Get the fuck out of here. Margie Kunze.

She's been around a long time, too. Fuck yeah. Thanks, Margie. You fucking rule. Karen Lambiasi. Summer Tweet. Jason Fuller. Jason, come here. Jason, my man. Rachel Stora. Kath Leder. Kath Leder. Marissa Oman Hughes. Kate Myers. Sherry Sheer.

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I knew a kid named Fajardo in school with that lesson. That's ridiculous. Martina Kunkel. She donated twice. Thank you, Martina. Chris Davis. Jen Hardman. Kate Ives. Austin Weiser, Anthony Renaro, Antonio Garcia, Ricardo Basantes, Darian Long, Stephanie Ahern, Chris Voss, Christy Birch, Under the Sea Fabrics, thank you, Arthur Kazuba, Alexandria Rowland. Katie's. I don't know what that is.

It's a restaurant, maybe. It's Katie's with apostrophe S. Well, that's not a place. No, that's a place or something. I know she owns something. Yes, she does. Ownership. She owns that donation.

That's right. God damn it. Thank you. Jeremy Lemos. Rachel Gallagher. Rachel. No, Zachary McAbee. Zachary McAbee. Zachary Mickeby.

He donated twice also. Thank you, Zach. Well, thank you so much. Belinda Sanchez, Trini Martinez Jr., Sarah Huffskins, Justin Miller, Brittany Neville, last home stretch, Jesus Rodriguez, Hillary Cooper, Meg Morrow, Stephen Gibson, Tabitha Staples. She's new. Thank you, Tabitha. Kelly Creighton, Willis Wood, Casey Moore, Gina Buechel, Ross Van Dam, Micaiah, Micaiah,

right? Micaiah. Yes. Micaiah Johannes, Reagan Fisher-Byrne, Melissa Cole, Janice Hill, Angela Miller, Zoe Slingluff, Aaron Shett. Well, we love you. Aaron Sayre, Taylor Winslow, Michelle Rogers, Heather Avery, Thesis himself. I'm not sure what that is, but he's on Twitter.

Yeah, he's cool. He's always tweeting at us. Thanks, man. Damian Palmer, Brian Welch, M. Cho, Andrew Wilcox, Elisa, Elisa, E-L-Y-S-S-A, Elisa, Elisa, Corey Putts, Dick Blovin, or Bloin. You know what? I think somebody's fucking with me there. I think you're probably getting picked out of there. Dick Bloin.

That's for sure getting fucked with. Zachary Randall. I think I said that. Michael Paul Gibson, Zach Watts, Stephen Butaro, Jacinta Edmonds. Yeah, we're teaching you silent J's today between Fajardo. Shane Slocum, which is brutal. Random Precision. It's better than FastCom, I guess.

Bill Shazinsky, Gretchen L. Jones, and Jason Michael Smith. You guys fucking come through every week. You are the best. We appreciate you. Thank you so much. Honestly, we cannot do this without you. We would not be sitting in this studio right now. We would be trapped under somebody else's thumb.

I was going to say their boot. It felt more like that. Trapped under their boot and being told what to do and to let old ladies do things that are less important than us in the space we are in and all sorts of crazy shit. But we're all free of that because of you guys. Thank you so much. And they're always super important to us. So thank you so much. And what if one of these people wanted to tell you how important you are, Jimmy?

You can tell me anything you'd like to say at Wisman Sucks, W I S M A N sucks on Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat. I like hearing everything from you guys. It's pretty fucking amazing to find out how you guys found us, where you found us, why you listen, what, what, what you enjoy about the shows.

And we really appreciate that. What about, man, we dig it a lot. You can find me at Jimmy at Jimmy P is funny. Find it there. Look around, you know,

Twitter and all that shit. And it's, it's on there. Or you can just copy and paste my last name from the show description and there's that so do that because it's long and you'll fuck it up anyway and uh thank you for hanging in there uh me feeling like shit and i hope it wasn't too shitty for you but i think we came through uh jimmy picked up some slack there and uh we did it up and thank you guys so much for hanging with us through this incredible, incredible journey. We'll be back next week.

Get those damn live show tickets, please. Let's go. We'll be back as always. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, True Crime Podcast.