Small Town Murder - #93 - Perverted, Depraved & Mom Approved in Middle Township, New Jersey

Episode Date: November 8, 2018

This week, in Middle Township, New Jersey, a vague rumor around town, causes a man, and his family to plot, and carry out intense revenge. So intense, that it's some of the most outlandish, brutal, and ridiculous behavior that have ever been discussed on the show. What's even crazier is the other people involved. No description could do this mess justice!! Along the way, we find out that some of New Jersey is actually the south, how a simple home pregnancy test could have changed the course of at least 7 people's lives, and that a mother should never encourage her son to torture someone for no reason!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday!!Please subscribe, rate, and review!Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!Head to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder!For merchandise: crimeinsports.threadless.comCheck out James and Jimmie's other show: Crime in Sports Follow us on social media!Facebook: facebook.com/smalltownpodInstagram: instagram.com/smalltownmurderTwitter: twitter.com/MurderSmall Contact the show: [e-mail] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Middletownship, New Jersey, a vague rumor around town leads an entire family to exact intense revenge. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello and welcome to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrogallo. I am here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Oh, thank you so much for joining us, everybody. We are jacked this week. We're very excited. This is our week in between touring cities so we're like home for a week fresh off a home show fresh off a home show thanks for everybody who came out to phoenix and of course san francisco last week where we had an

amazing time san francisco's always a lot of fun uh thank you for the sellout there everybody at cobs dan rogers helping me out yeah thanks for a bunch of people there you guys were so cool too many people to mention but thank you guys and well we'll get into that we have one of the crazier episodes if you've listened for a long time you know there's certain episodes like Rulo which is known as a Phillips Oklahoma

those are a couple this is up there with that in terms of pure insanity I don't know how long the story will go I don't know if it'll be a full two and a half hour, if it's going to go a little short on two hours, but the story's so crazy. If it was 20 minutes, it would be worth... It's insane.

It's one of the most insane stories. I don't know how it got no national publicity. Nothing. Nothing. And it is the most batshit story ever. It's crazy. But we'll get to that. I just want to thank everyone, first of all, before we do get to that, for their iTunes slash Apple podcast purple icon reviews.

Thank you for that. We really do appreciate those. If you haven't done that yet, please just get in there. Give us five stars. It helps us move up the charts. It's not our fault. We don't care. It's not for our ego.

It's iTunes and their funky algorithm that needs to be fed. it's dancing around and we need to keep feed it so it keeps dancing it's very very hungry doing the pb dance it absolutely is it's hungry that's what it's hungry uh also uh what you can do for anything else small town murder or crime and sports which is our other podcast which you should most certainly be listening to because there's really no excuse not to. If you don't like sports, great, perfect. It's good for you because it's like we always say, crime and sports, always crime, sometimes some sports. A little bit peppered in.

It's mostly crime. So, yeah, check that out. But go to our site, which is shutupandgivememurder.com. And you can do that. You can do everything there. You can do reviews. There are links to the reviews, links to social media, links to merchandise. You want to get your small town murder T-shirts or your crime and sports T-shirts or mugs or bath mats or whatever the hell it is.

Also, tickets to live shows. Please come out to live shows next week. They're almost sold out. Almost next week. We have Atlanta, which is close to sold out. Minneapolis, which has been sold out since the day it went on sale. And then Denver, two days on Sunday. That one's about sold out.

I think that one is sold out. That one's getting close, too. So we're going to have a lot of fun. Get those tickets there. Another thing you can do there, if you want to be a hero, a true hero, one of our producers, the people we hold closest to our hearts and we talk about at the end of the show, a long list of these fine people, you can do that very easily from there you can follow you can follow the uh shut up and give me murder links to uh patreon.com slash crime and sports you can make a donation there or uh

over to paypal or you can use our email address which is crime and sports at gmail.com and make donations there uh but uh without further ado i think it's time for the disclaimer because we gotta may as well i just can't wait to tell the story it's one of those i don't want to i don't want to fart around in the beginning jimmy i want to get right into it so uh yeah disclaimer guys this is a comedy podcast if you're new to the show uh it's a comedy podcast and that's what we're that's what this disclaimer is for it's to tell you that there's jokes in there uh obviously there's murder and and violence and things like that you clearly don't mind that because you clicked on a show called small town murder but there are jokes also and

that's what we need to warn you about because some people don't think that true crime and comedy should go together ever and we disagree with that we think there's plenty of room for it all around the actual murder there's so much there's so much idiocy in every murder there's plenty of room for it. All around the actual murder, there's so much idiocy in every murder. There's a murderer trying to cover their tracks clumsily, a police force that still doesn't pick up the clues. There's just a small town. There's lots of comedy here. There's plenty of room for us to jam John Candy up your ass.

There is also. You're going to get that and Deadwood and Wire references and Great Outdoors and all sorts of stuff. But what we try not to do is we try not to make fun of the victims or of the victims' families because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. And that's how we try to roll with this whole thing. So if that sounds good to you, awesome.

We're excited to have you on board. You're going to have a great time because we're going to have a ball. If that doesn't sound good to you and you're one of the true crime and comedy people that don't think they go together, hey, you know what? No offense. It's cool. We're all good.

Nice to meet you. We're all shake hands and then turn around and head on out the door because you're not going to have a good time. We don't want to hear you. I'm not going to enjoy this. Don't want to hear you complaining later. So everybody else that's still left, hopefully most of you, it is time and it's a crazy one. So let's get it on wherever you are in your cars and your cubicles. It's a crazy one.

So let's get it on wherever you are in your cars and your cubicles. Obviously, if you're working for a quieter, more conservative company, you may want to go to the bathroom in a stall and quietly say to yourself, but everybody else shout it. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, Jimmy. Let's go on a trip. What do you say, buddy? You ready?

Let's do this. We are headed all the way out. Geez, we've been all over the place lately. Let's do this. We are headed all the way out. Geez, we've been all over the place lately. Now, we are headed all the way to New Jersey this time, which is a trip. Yeah, from last time.

We're going all the way to Middle Township, New Jersey, which is, man, it is at the very bottom of Jersey. When you think of Jersey and you think of, you know, next to Philly there and below New York. You're kind of next to New York, too, I guess. On the water. Below, it's on the water. This is the very, very tip of the southern part. This is practically the south. It's next to Delaware and Maryland. It's the south, basically.

It is most certainly the Jersey Panhandle, which is two words have never fit better together than Jersey Panhandle. All right. This is the jersey panhandle so whatever you think that is it is that's the thing there's no oh you know i don't want it's a stereotype no it's true it's all true jersey panhandle these are like jersey hillbillies on most of the people here back then this is back our story's going to take place in 1980 so you know back then now i don't know what the frigate's like it doesn't matter but back our story's going to take place in 1980 so you know back then now i don't know what the frigate's like it doesn't matter but back then it's probably probably about the same

it's probably about the same because southern jersey has gone like atlantic city has really gone to shit again now like they just gave up every 20 years they try to revitalize atlantic city and they go oh no it's a dump okay never mind but jersey doesn't change much like they've got the jersey short back on mtv yeah and they are exactly the same they're all about 30 pounds heavy yeah jerseys never jerseys yeah jerseys never changed much honestly i grew up in new york we go we used to go there on vacation yeah that's that's how how much how great my childhood was we're going to new jersey on vacation yay i think great wow. Great. Wow. Oh, good. The beaches are open.

There's no more medical waste on it because this was in the 80s. So it was like, oh, the syringes are all cleaned up from last week when it was. Okay, good. That's great. This is about an hour and 15 minutes to Philly, about two and a half hours to New York, and also about two and a half hours to Baltimore. So think about how that triangulation is. That's fascinating. In no time, you could get to New York, Philly, or Baltimore, which are way different fucking places. two and a half hours to baltimore so think about how that triangulation is that's fascinating no

time you could get to new york philly or baltimore which are way different fucking places like baltimore and new york are so different it's not even funny but you're just right there philly's philly's its own thing completely cool philly's cool yeah i love philly's awesome we had terrifying it's but we had one of the best times in philly we went there as far as like the crowd those people are animals and we fucking loved them our show is like if you're an old school wrestling fan it was like an ecw crowd like they were they were rowdy but in a great way like they were into it that's why oh we love them shit that mattered oh yeah it was boomer sooner yeah none of that bullshit they were really into it uh drunk drunk people that if you said shut the fuck up the whole crowd would go roar with approval that you told them to shut the fuck

up it was wonderful so we love philly but i mean this is a weird place if you think about it just it's it's so strange it's in cape may county and we'll tell you how it's broken down, Cape May County. Again, really weird, abnormally broken up. Zip code 08210. Area code 609. It's a big area, this whole area, because there's a lot of like, I don't know what you'd call it. Well, there's a lot of like areas in it. It's 82 square miles. That's big.

Okay. The county is the whole panhandle, is the county. That takes up up the whole panhandle and it's broken into three townships. And this is middle township and they have upper and lower. So it's it's broken up like that. So and inside the townships, their boroughs, basically. So it's kind of like in Brooklyn. Bed-Stuy is a place in Brooklyn where it's like I got shot in Bed-Stuy, but it's still technically Brooklyn because it's in the borough of Brooklyn. That's just a section of Brooklyn.

So it's that sort of thing here. The event that you use is a man's murder. It's apt for what we're doing. It's a person. It's pretty awesome because it's because we're going to say this person was murdered in another place, but it's inside Middle Township. But it's another town, not a town, but a section. Whatever. Fuck New Jersey.

Anyway, it's a weird place. It's a weird place. See, this is great because as a New Yorker, we get to shit right on New Jersey. That's one thing that New Jersey gets. And everyone in New Jersey just kind of shrugs and goes, I get it. I'm from New Jersey. What do you expect? You know, it's that sort of thing.

And also to everybody, we've we've we've taken some heavy shots on the south a lot lately. A lot of southern shows, a lot of western shows. And now we're going to make fun of the northeast. And you'll see that I'll go just as hard after my own people, if not harder, because I know I know the shittiness that they have. I'm not even guessing. I get it. We rope a dope the fuck out of Sunny Slope last. Oh, well, yeah, that's we live here. We beat that up-doped the fuck out of Sunny Slope last week. Well, yeah, we live here.

We beat that up. And no one can argue that. Go to Sunny Slope and drive around for five minutes and tell me how many crackheads you almost hit with your car as they skittered out in front of you. At four in the afternoon. Yeah. It's fucking weird. Check it at two in the morning. So 82 square miles, 70 of it is on land, and then the rest is the surrounding coast, obviously.

And it's the middle of the pan know surrounding coast obviously and it's it's the middle of the panhandle just a big swath of area uh motto of this town uh quote where new jersey truly meets panhandle so that's that's very nice uh they're made for our show that's perfect their history of this place it's it's really just uh the history is not that exciting honestly there's some stupid shit here no county seat fighting for records or any crazy shit like that there were native americans obviously right their first uh they were there to hunt and fish during the summer and tan which makes sense get real nice tans absolutely that's great uh the area that's now cape may county was claimed as part of new new uh new netherlands new sweden the province of new jersey under the british crown and later west jersey it

was so it's it kind of got tossed around because first that area belonged to the dutch and then it's been it's been passed around quite a bit if you read like the history of new york it's interesting how many different regimes they've had. And there's a Jersey in, uh, in the UK, correct? I'm sure. Yeah.

That's a, there's a new Jersey because there's a York and Jersey and everything new is from over there. There's a Hampshire over there too. There's a Hampshire, I assume. And a new anything. Yeah.

There's a whole England, a whole entire England, an old England, just all of it. Uh, they had, uh, a,

uh, a 1609, August 28 1609 english explorer henry hudson entered the delaware bay and everything was named after him from then on i did not know that there was a person yeah henry hudson they found the hudson river and i assumed yeah yeah i know all about that you didn't know it was an actual guy though you thought it was just named after an old woman who lived in the area? Ma Hudson. Ma Hudson. Ma Hudson from up on the hill. Some big fish in a river now.

I mean, if there's anything named there, you just got to assume that that was a person. A bewig douchebag at some point. Some fuckface with a booted heel on the front of a bow somewhere. 1609. That is an Englishman. That's a bewig douchebag to the extent of it. He entered the Delaware Bay and stayed one day on land. And then turned the fuck back?

And then went somewhere else. And then they named everything after him. What is now Cape May Point. That's one of their big claims to fame is Henry Hudson stopped here for a day. Wow. Good for you. That's terrific uh dutch explorers came after that which it's already found i don't know what you're doing i mean when

you pull up and there's already a bunch of natives fishing you just go oh well never mind found already hi how you doing what do you call this place and at that point too i'm sure there was still there was already syringes in the water that That's what I mean. Yeah, a Dutch explorer, Cornelius Jacobson May, sailed the coastline in New Jersey from 1620 to 1621, and he wrote in his journal, too many syringes, hard to navigate, sorry. The medical waste is thick. It's frothy, the ocean water with medical waste. We can't even get off the boat and wade in without puncture wounds. and get off the boat and weighed in without puncture wounds.

We found a lot of these glass tube-like things with a bulbous end and a lot of what appear to be fire marks around it. I don't know what those are. They smell. It's chemically smelling. It's very strange. A lot of those around. They just clearly use this to start their fires. Don't understand what they're...

They use this to start their kilns. Start their crack fires. So, yeah, Jesus Christ, man. Like a lot of these, the Dutch West India Company purchased 16 square miles of land from the indigenous people in the area along the Delaware River and then bought a bunch more land like 11 years later. And then I'm sure pushed those indigenous people far, far away to a place way less good for fishing and hunting and growing things and everything else how did they buy 16 miles of new jersey and go we want more we want more new jersey we need more jersey well they were i'm sure they were storing shit from somewhere else there probably shit we ran out of space from the good place it's it's basically how you get

from 16 of scratch off tickets to 58 of scratch off tickets you go there's got to be a winner there's got to be a winner yeah maybe it's not this track the land we bought maybe it's the next one it can't all be this terrible right right if we buy it all some of it's got to be good i'm sure at some point you cut your losses the indians seem to have liked it we had to kill all of them to get them off of it so i mean you have to cut throats it must be worth it right shit it's worth a throat cutting ridiculous so uh as if the dutch were were you know as if we weren't portraying them as bad enough uh they founded a town bank in this area in 1640 around the delaware bay because it was a big whaling village so that's also the thing they were doing was killing whales there too did i know that there

was lots of whales up there but well yeah the hartford whalers was a oh that makes sense yeah there used to be a lot of whalers but that the problem is uh by 1685 uh they it was it was diminishing because the whaling you know there's not a lot of whales that's the thing they're huge yeah and so it seems like there's just a ocean full of them if you see a couple of them but in the end there's not a ton of them so if a lot of people hunt them there won't be any left that's kind of how it works with them and that's kind of what happened there the whales population declined so people started you know the bank kind of it's hilarious lost its money and uh by uh 1750 kind of most of the town was kind of gone again.

It was floundering. Yeah. It was a dead whaling community. So a lot of foresight from those people. It's going to be a whaling community for the rest of time. We're always going to be whaling here. It's going to be amazing. The short-sightedness of our founders and people that created everything.

We still always do everything short-sighted. We still burn dinosaurs to drive around. It's funny. Bridges were just like, well, we'll just fix that one part of it. Well, I know it's 200 years old, but it's fine. A lot of cars can drive. Only one column's cracked.

Let a million cars drive across it a day. That can't be that much stress on it, right? It's fine. Well, when it falls into the river, then we'll fix it, okay? I don't know what to tell you. It's fucking hilarious, but that's how we are yeah as a society as a society we need um we're trying i don't know i don't know how to put it into perspective we're out of money well not only that but even if we had the money we would spend it right it's almost like if you have a house

you're not gonna it's a great idea to put like some awesome dual pane windows in they save you on energy they save they're really great they're great for the house they're good for resale value and all type of shit like that but to spend like 10 grand on windows they're still windows yeah you can't do anything with them you can't like watch your windows it still looks you're you look through them and you still see outside so you're like i spent 10 grand on nothing and that's how like i feel like we see everything like if you buy like a new tv or something shiny you can look at that that's exciting when there's no real excitement to windows even when they're all done like your windows are done oh good they're still clear they still look like great old windows yeah there's no there's no nothing to it you just got

to replace them as junior knocks them out with a baseball bat. That's it right there. That's what it is. Yeah. The first water mill in the county was constructed in 1699 in Cold Spring. They also built the first Baptist church in 1712. They're going to pop churches up quickly as soon as people get somewhere. And the first Cold Spring Presbyterian church was built in 1718.

They were kind of the – that was also – it functioned as the center of kind of the early government, was everybody kind of met up at church to talk about what was going on. Which, if you don't have that many people, you can just meet wherever and talk about shit. Once you get over 100 people, then I think it's more complicated, probably. How about that? They were just mixing church and state all together. Oh, Jesus Christ. Well, this is pre-Constconstitution it wasn't even state it was just church and group of people

that live around here like there wasn't a lot of formal government it was just kind of uh hey bob what are you gonna you're gonna sweep that shit up when you're done okay good uh what's he doing over here there wasn't much to talk about really let's sing our god is an awesome god yeah then we'll do that and all right let's do it so uh they built the first jail and courthouse in 1764 uh in 1750 the population was around a thousand and uh but this was a weird thing because between uh southern new jersey is a lot of forest land it's a lot of pine forests and shit and then this is down here by itself separated from everything else by a law by a lot of forest in the 1700s you know it's not there's not a highway through there there's no you know they don't have the the throughway that goes down the state so you had to like trek through the forest

to get here so this was an isolated area like these people were considered a little out there you know uh then it grew as it it was it's uh it's america's oldest bathing resort which we said gross right i'm gonna go on bathing that doesn't even match i'm gonna go on a trek to get in water with other people that sounds strangers from other all sorts of lands that sounds great uh yeah the uh the the current the actual motto, I like mine better, but they like to say it's the nation's oldest seashore resort. Fuck you. That's boring. Yeah. But you can't really say that, can you?

I mean, who knows? That's the thing. How many of these towns is the oldest this and the oldest that? None of them are true. They don't know. The oldest within that they heard recently. I mean, Plymouth Rock was like the first one, wasn't it? Well, they don't know.

That's a resort because that's a stay away from home. They don't know what's happening in Myrtle Beach. They have no fucking idea how long it takes to get there. Then you have to get a guy. There's not even a telegram. You have to get a guy to bring you something on a horse and hand it to you you know how fucking complicated that is jesus christ by the way get on down to miami because i'll bet there's been some people down there resorting like a motherfucker for all sorts of people yeah they'll be down there soon to take

their land as well so uh yeah they had obviously the revolutionary war was this was a part of it as the whole northeast was uh two broad two british ships pursued and attacked uh the american brig which was called the nancy which then fled inward here into the uh an inlet and uh the nancy was abandoned and sabotaged and killed uh 30 british sailors when the brig exploded after they boarded it oh that's badass so yeah they ended up i don't know if it was sabotaged or what, but the British soldiers got on to fuck with it and take it afterwards and it exploded and killed a bunch of them. That is rad. Yeah.

So I don't know if it was like a booby trap, but if it was, it's pretty goddamn smart. That is awesome. I gotta say. So yeah, they split it into three townships, Cape May County in 1798, lower, middle and upper. Very creative once again uh during war of 1812 there was british raids that uh forced farms in the area to give them uh food and water and all sorts of shit like that which is normal there uh the the oldest independent borough in the county

was cape island borough which became a part of uh cape may in 1869 uh also ocean city is is i think that's in lower uh township and that's that's kind of that's kind of the biggest that's like the population area if they want to call it that was founded as a religious retreat really a lot of these beach towns were they were originally religious retreats which makes no fucking sense that's ocean city that's ocean city yeah which is all the way the hell down there weird place uh the uh land development company established avalon around there in 1887 in cape may county and in 1891 woodbine was founded on the mainland as an agricultural settlement for russian jews who fled religious persecution wow in uh 1891 there were russian jews yeah yeah lots of russian jews tons of i know that yeah you should i did know that religious persecution in 1891. There were Russian Jews. Yeah. Yeah.

Lots of Russian Jews. Tons of them. Yeah. I did know that. Yeah. There's a lot of Russian Jews. It doesn't seem right to me. There's tons and tons and tons of Russian Jews.

I'm seeing a guy that looks like the guy from Rocky and then a little Jewish guy. No. It doesn't make sense. No. They were persecuted like fucking Russia, too. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, think about the Germans, how they were, obviously, with Jewish people.

They don't famously get along. The Russians are not really warm and cuddly people, also. Also true. When they decide a group is out, they're fucking out. It's one of those things. Yeah, they were rough on the poor Jewish people back then. That was tough. Now, 1928, North Cape May was founded and then dissolved after it failed

to attract development. So this is what we're dealing with here. It's a, it's nothing. It was kind of floundering until the garden state parkway until they built that in 1955, which then the tourists could come down and then you could get out of there. Wow. Highways connected everything. Once the 1955 is when that was built?

That was, yeah, 1955 is when they really did the highway system and the interstate system. And that's when people got connected and that's when people started going places. Is that like throughout the whole country? Absolutely. Yeah, that was the big Eisenhower had a giant, that was like his big works program. You know how many schools were built in the 50s? Like back home, every school was built. Most of them, if you look, they're all built in 1955, 1956.

They dumped a shitload of... He had the thing where... Get off on... It's not really a political thing. It's fine. Yeah, yeah. But he had the thing, and it's funny because if you listen to an Eisenhower speech, who was an army general...

I mean, he's a square, square flat top wearing republican conservative son of a bitch but his whole thing was uh do you know how many schools you can build for the price of one bomb it's from a military man that's why he was the guy who said let's not make you know the military industrial complex a thing we can build roads otherwise we can educate children but uh yeah never mind it yeah it's good i just didn't don't i i obviously i knew that the the interstate system don't say we're fucking hippies because eisenhower said that so if you think you're more square or fucking conservative than eisenhower you're not fuck you so the uh i knew that the interstate system fixed a lot of things in this country

and made it expand a lot further i didn't know it was that late oh yeah yeah 55 is not that long ago no it wasn't but also that is the boom of the automobile too you know what i mean because they could get around you could get around that was that was the thing that's when people could afford automobiles and you could get around and cars got badass too we had that and we had during the depression when they had the uh tennessee valley authority which brought the you know kind of electricity and phone shit to the hillbillies and that was a big deal too that brought them into the modern century they were living like it was 100 fucking years ago so they didn't have electricity some of them still do but

i mean back then they were living like it was the 1700s in the 30s and they're like if we're gonna have a country we can't have half these people walking around fucking barefoot with no electricity we need to it's 1935 let's get our Overall, one strap and no shirt because they can't afford it. Yeah, no fucking rope belt. And that strap's broken. Jesus Christ. A lot of French Canadians go down there, apparently, in the 90s, 2000. Tons of people from Quebec go down there a lot.

To Jersey? To southern Jersey. This is a big spot for the Quebecians. I don't know what you call them. Quebecers, I guess. Quebecers? That sounds better than Quebecian. Yeah, it does.

It sounds like an alien. Yeah. Sounds like I'm on Star Trek. It's an old WWF tag team, I think, too. Quebecians? The Quebecers. Oh, okay. One of the two in the 90s.

I don't remember. One of the Rougeau brothers was in it. Moving on. People in this town, population 18,778. It's up from it had 14,771 in 1990. So it's growing down there for some reason. 20.9, about 21% of the people are under the age of 18. Seems like there's a lot of kids down there.

Also, 19% are 65 and older. So there's also a lot of retirees down there. So it's kind of old and young, median age of 44.6, which is about seven years older than normal. So the seesaw is a little bit—there's like five old people sitting on one side of the seesaw and like three teenagers. Look at it that way. It's a little dipping on the other side. That's a long leather fitting. It's just dangling on either side of the of the seesaw there's they aren't necessarily male or female there's a little

bit of both that's what i'm saying uh more uh more uh females than males as there always is with older towns and that sort of thing uh 54 of the people here are married, which is 50 percent. Fifty fifty is the norm. That sort of thing. They have a pretty normal household size. I've been fascinated with these household sizes. How many people live in households? Because I feel like that's the key to happiness. Is it?

Yeah. Smaller. Smaller. Yeah. I feel like square footage is a big deal. I feel like if you have if you average like five people in a house, that's fine. But there's going to be way more tension than if there was two people in that house. So, 2.58.

Big goddamn house. Or it's a big house here. Now, race of this town, it is about 83% white, 10% black, it's about 1.79% Asian, so that's about half of the norm there.

5% Hispanic, so pretty white for jersey that's pretty fucking white for jersey like jersey mixes in but the towns are kind of some white towns and some you know it's based on economics mostly too and italian is still classified as white yeah yeah there's a bunch of fucking guineas there there's a lot of us spread throughout there yeah yeah so that's a separate thing anyway i don't know if because uh you know you can count it as whatever you want but the the real white bread people are like they're not like us right those motherfuckers are loud i was in a restaurant there was a family on the other day and we're not the same thing they all took the steak knives it was strange sorry yeah it's one of those deals i don I don't think they feel the same way.

Now, we'll see how many guineas we have here in a second here. 54% are religious here, which is a little bit above the average. 37% Catholic. Holy shit. Guinea's abound, baby. God damn. 30%. 37%.

Catholics. The Baptists of the North. And they absolutely are. That is percent almost aggressive 0.3 uh three percent lds so they haven't been able to penetrate the the southern jersey pine forest and get it 0.0 percent jewish so it started out as a good place for russian jews and they're like we're getting the fuck out of here. As soon as this farm starts kicking up, we're getting out of here. 0.0% Islam. 45% of this people in this county. I don't have the town voting stats, so I had to go to the county.

45% Democrat, 54% Republican, which is odd because Jersey's a blue state generally, but it does have kind of red pockets. Same as New York. The more rural areas tend to be more conservative here. Unemployment rate 6.8%, so well higher than the rest of the country. Is it 5% nationally? It's about 5.2% at the moment, so that's a little higher. Household income, though, is $57,394, which is about $4,000 over the national average,

which Jersey's expensive, though, too. So we'll talk. You better be making a little bit more as we'll talk about cost of living, 100 being average, regular, par. Here, cost of living is $125 out of 100, and that's because housing is the high one at $177. All right. Your average, your median home cost here is 30 333 500 that's steep but for the east coast it's not terrible too bad no and i found there's

a lot of bargains down there too right now that's home value but like the ones for sale yeah the real estate market's kind of taking a dip and uh especially in places that aren't excessively desirable yeah like in san francis it's still really expensive but it's gonna be that way a while southern rural jersey it's you know it'll drop a little quicker i have a feeling so uh yeah 333 5 the average in the country is 216 most of your houses here are going to be between 150 and 300 000 you're going to be between $150,000 and $300,000. You're going to get about 40% of the houses there, so a good chunk there. A lot of vacant vacation rentals here, too.

Of course. You deal with that in the winter, there's nobody there. So it's about 51% vacation rentals. So that tells you a lot. And if we've convinced you, you need to be in southern New Jersey in the smack dab in the panhandle, we have for you the Middle Township, New Jersey in the smack dab in the pan handle we have for you the middle

township New Jersey real estate report your average two-bedroom rental here seems like maybe the way to go at 1350 a month which is uh actually just slightly above the national average, about $1,250. Three-bedroom, two-bath house I found here, 1,296 square feet. It's $160,000. That's the deal. It's not bad. I mean, it's not like a real up-to-date or anything like that, but hey, you know what? 1,296.

You got two kids. Yeah, you got two kids or something like that. I mean, you can afford... It's not an overly excessively expensive house. It's hard to find that in Phoenix at the moment. Yeah, $160,000 for a three-bedroom, two-bath? No, that'd be hard to do now. Three-bedroom, two-bath, I found 1,700 square feet. It's a little bit nicer, but just kind of like a little spruced-up version of the other one.

This one's $269,000, which still, for the area, isn't terrible. I found one here. This is a goddamn nice house. It is on the water. Your backyard has a beach. It goes right up to the beach. Four bedroom, three bath, 3,100 square feet. That's a big house.

It's a big house right up to the beach. $525,000. Wow, that's not bad. Which is not... I mean, it's expensive for me, but it's... It's a half million dollar house On the beach That's what I mean For

If you want to live on the beach You're going to spend some money So that's not a bad That's a big house too It's not like you've got to Live in a shack on the beach Yeah I defy you to find that

In San Diego Oh Jesus good luck It's not happening You've got to find a studio condo You can rent one For half the year for that Definitely That's it

Things to do Found here The Not a lot The A lot of outdoor shit go bike around yeah there's a nice gym tan and laundry you're close yeah you're close to the ocean on either side or bays or whatever the fuck they are i found the middle township harvest festival oh baby

harvest it's basically halloween but they don't want to say halloween because there's too many catholics i feel like a lot of old ital Italian ladies going around dressed all in black holding the rosaries. How about that? They won't celebrate death, but they will celebrate Easter, which is a dead guy. Which is a dead guy. Yeah. This happened. We just missed it.

October 28th. It's 12 to 5 p.m. free. It's totally free. They have craft and food vendors rides. Quote, entertainment. I don't know what that is. It's got to be terrible if they're not even mentioning it not even giving a line item on that one halloween costume contest for kids and pets oh pre-registration required jimmy don't just fucking saunter up in a costume

and expect to be judged and given the blue ribbon you gotta sign up ahead of time down at the piggly wiggly how dare you surprise us jesus. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in. Property crime is about 20% higher than the average in the nation. And violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and assault, of course, for Mount Rushmore of crime, is also about 20% higher here. So it's dangerous. It's a crimey town, which Atlantic City is a shit place. Jersey is just crimey in general. There's a lot lot of crimey areas in there and this is kind of out

there so i've heard of a lot of mobsters that go to jersey to crime like oh yeah it's it's there just in new york they try to keep it clean up here well philly too they used to use philly philly and new york used to use not to get off on a subject with this uh one guy read his book. And Philly and New York used to use Atlantic City as kind of like their little meetup pub. And they kind of both shared it and shit like that. And it was, you know, it was like their used condom they left behind. Just jizz all over the streets. Throw it back to your buddy. You do it.

Throw it out the window. Your turn. Throw it out the window. You know, push the lady of the night that you've picked up out into the street and drive off screeching with your IROC T-tops open and your Bon Jovi playing. It's that kind of town. Throwing a 20 at the top saying, clean yourself up. Terrible.

Jesus Christ. I have a resident review of this town. I love that. Resident review is, quote, there are good and bad people in this community well no shit yeah the amount of people that use drugs however is on the rise it is causing the crime rates increase as well it's extremely sad to see but makes me want to move away okay three stars so not that bad no not that bad that's average so we've we've run this poor town down and we've made fun of jersey and the northeast

which is good and uh all of my guinea brethren and uh let's talk about a murder i would love it wow uh this murder actually takes place in uh swainton which is a part of middle it's a bed sty of middle township we'll say it's a part of middle township uh it's so fucking stupid and confusing if you're not like from the east coast you'd go that makes no sense what's the town stupid well it's this but sort of that hey everybody just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you about one of our sponsors third love oh is this third love.com this is thirdlove.com slash town if you want to get our promo code here. These great bras.

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to find your perfect fitting bra and get 15 off your order that's thirdlove.com slash town for 15 off today thirdlove.com slash town 15 off go get your bras and now back to the show uh we have to go back here to january 10th 1981 jesus christ this is just this is one of those stories where i had to read it and i went no it's not doesn't say that i read the court i i actually had to fact check the court documents because i did not believe them. You snopes to this. I actually was like, this is not true, even though it's in a very reliable source of just, you know, court decisions.

And it's dry. Nobody would like put it would take a lot. You'd have to be like a legal scholar, like put in different cases to cite and all this shit and write it like I would know if it was fucked up. I've read enough of these where I'd be like, this is weird. But it was written correctly, but I actually had to go find newspaper accounts to back up the court documents. That's how wacky this shit is.

You genuinely thought it was like one of those spoof news websites. I thought I was like, did someone slip this in here? Like somebody editing Wikipedia. Yeah. That's exactly what it was. Like, okay. Then he went to Southern Methodist University. And then he worked for Intel for a few years.

And then he went to Mars and did a sex tape with Pamela Anderson after she had hepatitis C. So that's odd. I didn't realize. Oh, and then he got married had three kids and is currently the ceo of yeah well what the fuck is going on that's what it was like it was very mad libby yeah like the geez all right let's just start from the beginning here i think this is one of those stories too you can start it anywhere and you just be like who just dive in man just dive in and just fucking get a flop around the muck uh

we'll start with january 10th 1981 and we'll work backwards how's that sound january 10th 1981 a former policeman in the area named burt schubert which sounds like a former policeman that's the dude that was fired very high sideburns i feel on that man all the way up above the ears still rocks the flat top mustache very much under control though does not dangle below the lip whatsoever uh yeah he's got about a third of an inch uh gap between lip and mustache yeah oh yeah yeah he's got it but it's a thick one though it's he's got it all taken care of and he was he was he was fired correct we don't know that. He's just a former policeman.

He drinks his coffee precisely at 610 every morning. He's one of those guys. He's got it planned out. He's got newspaper, coffee, and then he shits at 627. He's got it all lined up. And he leaves the house at 645. That's how it works. Because he takes a shower before he shits.

Of course. He's a strange man. He's one of of a weirdo. He's a strange man. He's one of those kind of guys, you know. He's a pre-shower. He's a post-shower shitter, which is a sign of a psychopath. So if you know you're going to shit at a certain time and you decide to shower before, I'm not saying if it happens, it happens, whatever. But if that's your schedule, you're fucked up, man. man you need to adjust that shit i'll tell you this right now if i got a shit and

i gotta go somewhere i if i have showered and i get out the door and i'm like i gotta shit guess what i'm late to wherever i'm going because i'm about to shower again you're not gonna waste the whole shower being all shitty that's the problem because why now you might as well not even have taken a shower you might as well go roll around on the ground with the dog at that point it's a mess go wherever i'm going you know what everybody if you have to shit just stay home everyone will understand if we all had that as a as a societal that we would all understand if someone just went i sorry i was about to come over i really had to shit and then the whole thing i'd have to take another shower and they go i totally get it yeah i'll catch you next time yeah it's a universal excuse

so let you know the next time there's a super bowl oh i'll tell you i'll tell you all about it so well i don't want you sitting on tell me what tell me what box you want and how much you're gonna bet and we'll fucking figure it out oh christ so uh this former policeman he's walking through the woods uh uh bob burt shuber burt okay that's burt shuber god damn it he's uh walking through the woods between 10 and 11 a.m so it's a mid-morning walk for a retired policeman or fired policeman we're not sure of his uh pedigree but whatever he's walking just strolling and uh he ends up uh uh uh coming across something that he didn't expect to see and that is a partially frozen body uh in a shallow grave of what he appears to be in the court uh kate may courthouse section of town uh it's what which is kind of like the

center of town off to the east a little bit it's it's he's freaked out he seems to be a female but it's also something has happened to this body besides regular decomposition there's uh the color is not of an of a human of a human color color. It's like a jet black, which is very strange in a weird way. No, but not Byrne. That's the other thing. No hair on the head, but appears to be a female also, which, you know, it's fine. But in 1980, that's uncommon to find a, you know, a shaven headed female, especially a young female, because it doesn't appear to be an old woman. So it's very much a mystery at this point.

So he obviously calls the police and they're like, it's Bert again. They're like, you found another one, Bert? Jesus Christ. You didn't find it in your garage again, did you, Bert? You know, we had to fire you for that the first time. Somebody tell the captain, old Schubert's back on the phone. Shuby's got some questions. Old Schubert.

That's what it said on his desk in his little nameplate. Old Schubert. Old Schubert. How you doing? Old Schubert here. You're like, can you refer to yourself properly as Officer Schubert, please? That's why he got fired. He's just old Shuby.

Wouldn't wear his uniform just wore his regular clothes with his sheriff badge on the on the breasts just no problem they're like you have to wear a fucking uniform dude he's like my my they know i'm the sheriff he's like oh oh schubert to headquarters old shooby to. This is the phone, sir. What are you talking about? Bert, is that you? Can you call me Old Shoebert, please? Old Shoebert, you called the switchboard. It makes me feel excited. You don't have a radio anymore.

Well, he did call, and he reported this body, and they come to check it out, and they believe they have – they're automatically – there's a missing woman in the area that has not been seen in about a month. And so – and the clothing that this body has around them and was wearing is vaguely matching the clothing that this woman had. It's about the same size. So they're thinking this area. This is probably who they believe is 29 year old Josephine Trombetta. So they believe it's Josephine because she's been missing for a month from this entire area. This is 250 yards to the east of Stagecoach road into the woods, uh, in this area.

I don't know anything about stagecoach road, but there it is. Uh, it's about a half a mile from shell Bay road. It says here in an old article I found, uh, he called the middle township police. They contacted the prosecutor's office to say, Oh, this might be the person we're looking for. And I'll tell you why, because they already had people in custody. they didn't have a body or know what the hell happened to this woman and we'll tell you how that all came down and they just got some nudnicks and they're like y'all probably killed somebody well we'll find out this is an onion boy it keeps peeling and

it keeps stinking it is a fucked up story so uh old shooby here old Shuby calls the police. Now, the police right away, they don't dig this body up. It's in a shallow grave. They right away rope off the area leading to it. They rope off the dirt road. They shut down the whole area as a crime scene, obviously. And they wait until about 7 p.m. that night to actually excavate the body. They wait till the state medical examiner who's Dr. Robert Good is helicoptered into the scene to supervise

the excavation because they don't want it fucked up. They do not want anything messed up. They don't want physical evidence tampered with. They want to have a strong case. This is January. It's freezing. That's why the body's frozen. The body's frozen. So it's dark in January at's why the body's frozen the body's frozen so it's dark in

january at about 4 30 in new jersey so i'm not shitting that's about when it's dark so it's cold and dark it's cold it's dark and they're gonna dig up a body at 7 p.m jesus so your helicopter and it's been dark for three hours also there's been guys out there guarding it all day since 11 o'clock in the morning you've had to guard a fucking shallow grave how'd you like that to be your assignment johnson yes sir see that shallow grave with that corpse over there yes sir stand next to it how long i don't know eight hours or so until you hear the whirlybird when you hear the helicopter coming that's when well you can't leave but when that guy's done and when he leaves yeah then ask me and then maybe in a few hours you can leave but you're gonna get some overtime today is this why old shooby retired is this what it was i think old shooby hung out there anyway

and he's like no i got this like no we don't need you bert bert that's not your job we don't need you to guard it fuck out of there bert he's like don't touch anything but i'm doing it i'm gonna guard they're like we prefer you didn't bert we just prefer you didn't i'm sorry i'm volunteering that's what makes this so difficult it's a kramer on seinfeld i don't even really work here that's what makes this so difficult so uh he gets there they excavate the body very very carefully with little tiny shovels and uh brushes and it's and brushes. And they do like it's archaeology. Exactly. Like they're getting a Tyrannosaurus Rex bone out of the ground.

I would, too. Yeah, I'm glad they did that. They didn't just be like, just get a bulldozer and yank them out. Somebody throw a toe chain around the neck. If a foot falls off, we'll pick it up later. We'll sift through it later. Don't worry about it. But just get most as much as you can.

Yeah. By the way, now you know. Don't say we're making fun of the South with this accent because we're making fun of New Jersey Guineas with this accent because this is just the idiot accent. It has nothing to do with your region. It's just panhandle accent. It's not even a real accent.

Nobody really talks. Nobody talks like that. People have a Southern accent, but we kind of put a thing on it where nobody really talks like that. It's a totally different. It's I'm stupid and I'm enjoying it. I like being stupid. This is fun.

It's essentially my inner monologue voice. Yeah, it's Jimmy's inner child is what it is. Jimmy's inner trailer trash child. That's the guy I talk to all day. Nice. Jesus Christ. So police say they're're gonna make a full autopsy they take it to burdette tomlin memorial hospital and uh to the morgue there and they're gonna do a full autopsy the next day once the body's thawed so they can cut into it more easily and set in the microwave figure out what the hell's going oh you're gonna

have to zap that up i think you put it on the chicken setting defrost chicken and i think it'll come out perfect i'm not sure don't take my word on that if you have color yeah any if there's any coroners out there listening we know actually we have like some people who yeah listen from morgues and shit that's not how you do that that's not proper procedure uh they have fillings that'll spark oh it'll do all sorts of stuff. Consult whatever manual you have. I feel like you're going to get a manual. Probably a handbook. How to make a body that's dead be not frozen anymore.

I don't know how that works. How to defrost a body. But that sounds like you're doing it to cook it. I don't like that one. So there's got to be a way to. Yeah. Anyway. So they say.

Soft again. Yeah, to make it soft again they believe it's trombetta though josephine trombetta based on the clothing again they say they're quote almost positive that it is josephine trombetta she is 29 years old uh she graduated in 1970 from millville senior high school uh she lives in south dennis, and she has been missing since December 4th. So they've been looking for her for over a month, all through the holidays. I mean, that's crazy.

She was said to have gone to a, and I am going to use this in the loosest way possible, quote, unquote, just as loose as you can possibly make it. I mean, I can't quote unquote it enough. Party that she went to. This is not a party of any stretch of the imagination, but it is continually called a party because that's what she thought she was doing,

was going to a party. And this was, I guess, a party. It was a celebration. It's a party in a Phillips, Oklahoma kind of way. It's sort of a party. It was a celebration. It's a party in a Phillips, Oklahoma kind of way. It's sort of a party. They she had disappeared. She was last heard of going to this party and then disappeared December 4th, never seen again and was suspected based on certain things we'll talk about, was suspected to at least be the victim of a possible sexual assault and maybe more. But if only it was if it was only

that we'll just say that uh they searched for the body all around uh primarily centered on middle township since uh since uh the week before they were searching all around but they didn't know if maybe she just took off with somebody or something like that she She's 29. She's 29, who knows? But since the week before this, they've really, really started searching hard because they believed she was dead after that, which is what one of the police captains says here. He says, quote, we had the feeling that when she was found,

she would be dead. In fact, we began searching an area near where her body was found last Friday in an attempt to locate her body. So they've been searching. They kind of had the right area. I think I dropped my keys over here. And you did.

It's just by the bush and you didn't see it. But why were they suspicious all of a sudden that she was dead? Yeah, that's the question. It's a lingering question. It's a lingering question. There's good reason for it. We'll just say that. There's good reason for it.

We'll just say that. Mid-December 1980, about a week and a half before Christmas, two people were arrested attempting to sell Josephine Trombetta's car for $1,000. It was worth more than $1,000. So they were trying to just offload somebody else's car that they didn't have the title for or anything like that. Well, they did, but we'll talk about how they got it and everything else. But these two people that are arrested here, this is crazy. Leroy W. Camp is the first guy who gets arrested. He's 30 years old at the time.

Him and his stepdaughter are arrested, by the way, together for trying to sell this car. And we'll talk about her in a minute. How old is Leroy? Janice Ann Neelis is her name.'s 19 he is 30 years old he is her stepfather his his stepdaughter's 11 years stepdaughter's 11 years younger and the mother is uh the mother is 37 at this point okay so yeah the mother had the kids early as we'll talk about because there's another there's another son involved in this imagine having a 19 yearyear-old right now. Oh, well, I have a 17-year-old.

But you're 40, though. Yeah, still. I'm 37. I'm thinking about being her age. Well, I guess you're right. Yeah, it's the same exact thing. I feel it's exactly the same. What difference is there between us? We have the same exact everything, too.

We have the same reference points. Same reference points, same body pain. We are the same generation. If there's no... Three years might as well be five minutes. It doesn't matter. So, yeah, that's suspicious, though, when someone's trying to sell a car for less than it's worth when the person's missing

and under suspicious circumstances, too. The people they end up arresting, like we said, Leroy W. Camp, whose nickname is and this is a small town murder classic here this is gonna right away hard to think of one before you hit it his nickname is the rodent the rodent rodent they call him that's his main nickname rodent okay okay that's clever though that they went further than the rat or the mouse or whatever it's true yeah rodent it could have been the vermin right i think that's very vague they wanted to go with the rodent uh leroy rodent camp here uh

the rodent he is the a former vice president of the south jersey chapter of the warlocks whatever the fuck that is i assume now i looked it up and i couldn't tell there's like groups of dudes who like which like wicca people but like more not like wicca i couldn't tell there's like groups of dudes who like which like wicca people but like more not like wicca i don't people don't fucking tweet me about wicca i get it but like there's warlock people who say they're warlocks and shit so i don't know if it's that or if that's like a club of some kind there's also a biker gang of warlocks well that's what i'm thinking it is because he was also the president of the, at this point, defunct Icon Motorcycle Club of Rio Grande, New Jersey. All right.

So I feel like he's a biker gang guy. 30-year-old biker gang president, vice president named Roden. So he's a good dude right away. Yeah, so in 1980, too. So this isn't like, yeah, it's a different time period here. Like now there's biker gangs that they're full of yies wearing like yeah yeah it's a total bahamas yeah it's a leather vest super horseshit dude i'm not scared of you this guy was like what are those pills give me a handful like i don't care just stuff them in his mouth ladies that's a different see what these

feel like this is hunter tellipson wrote a book about us a different thing completely totally so uh this is the guy who gets arrested. So now you're even more suspicious if he's the one selling this thing. You're like, what the fuck is going on? Him and his stepdaughter, which is another strange twist to this whole deal. They're very close. They're very close. Very, very close.

But they end up through this arrest. They end up arresting four more people, most of which who are in the family. Okay, let's talk about who they are. There is also Frances J. Camp, who is Leroy's wife, who is Janice Ann Neelis' mother. She's 37 years old. Also involved in this is Curtis Smith. He is Frances J. Camp's 20-year-'s 20 year old son leroy stepson uh janice anneal is his sister so they're that family the four now there's also alberta westcott who is a

family friend who's just hanging out some girl who's 24 years old and jack a gaskell who is francis camp's brother okay who's 31 years old so that's curtis and janice ann neilis's uncle got it okay so this is the family the all of these people are arrested at once now there's one more two who gets arrested but she ends up it's not she's not involved in the main deal of this got it so she's not important until she comes up. But at this point, six people are arrested in mid-December. This is well before the body's found. Okay. Six people are arrested and connections with the disappearance, but they weren't charged

with murder or anything like that. They didn't know what to charge them with. So they were trying to charge them with something based on the car, stolen property, some shit like that, basically. the car stolen property some shit like that basically and they they also were uh they ended up ultimately deciding to book them on sexual assault charges uh before they ever found josephine's body of josephine of josephine yeah and they the she was last seen leaving the home of uh of of one of them so that's why. So they were all charged with aggravated assault, aggravated sexual assault,

even though they had no idea where the hell the body was or if she was still alive or dead or what. But they assumed that that happened and we'll figure out why that is in a minute, which right away, this whole thing is fucking... How does all those people get arrested?

How does your mom and your stepdad and you're okay yeah we all rape together this is crazy thing is that's what i mean we're gonna find out exactly it's worse than that that's the thing it's it's worse because it's sort of that plus plus more it's not real i can't even gotta get into it i'm gonna let you tell the story the police here's uh paul pitts who's a spokesman for the cape county prosecutor's office he said that the charges this is before they found the body, quote, the charges stem from an incident that occurred December 4th at Gaskell's house. That's Jack Gaskell, 31 year old uncle of the two younger ones slash brother, brother

in law of the camps. OK, at that time, Josephine Trombetta was allegedly allegedly physically abused by those persons now charged. Now, after they find the body, now they know what the fuck happened to Josephine as far as she's dead and she's not dead. She didn't just die of exposure out there and crawl into a

shallow grave. No, no, no. This is there's a lot wrong with her, boy. I mean, she is she's been there's been some trauma. Bail was increased for the three men to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars each in 1980, which is after they found the body. And they're also charged with murder and kidnapping and also seventy five thousand dollars each for bail for the three women charged with just kidnapping. So there's all of that. Now, there's a seventh suspect here.

This is Catherine J. Smith, 27 years old. She's charged with aggravated sexual assault and aggravated assault, but was released after posting a thousand dollars bail. She the evidence indicates that she did not participate in anything other than the, I guess, drawing this person in. She wasn't a an active participant, we'll say so her her story is kind of gonna end there uh she does this she ends up taking a plea for way less than everybody else ends up uh even being charged for and i wish people would stop doing that what kidnapping people and sexually assaulting them i mean apart from that stop being no no i let him do that i

have another issue my point is like stop being the dick that No, no, I let him do that. I have another issue. My point is, like, stop being the dick that's just like, I'll tell him to come over, but I'm leaving. Yeah, well, that's the... Fuck you. You're just as guilty as a dick. Well, they were... She was the... Well, yeah. Anybody who was anywhere near this fucking house and didn't run screaming from it to get help is an asshole.

And it deserves anything that the court system throws at him because this is fucking horrific so these people are in custody now this this whole cabal of family now you got to be thinking what the fuck did a mom and a stepdad and two kids and a family friend and an uncle and some other lady that got released on bail. I'm picturing the drapes from Crybaby. I'm picturing this is like a nothing but trouble scenario, like a nothing but trouble house. It's very similar. It's super fucking weird. So according to Gaskell, okay, Jack Gaskell, that Josephine Trombetta, she had been in a relationship with Curtis Smith, 20-year-old Curtis Smith. So they had been in a relationship on and off, the 20-year-old Curtis Smith. So they had been in a relationship

on and off for a while. Nothing serious, you know, just an on and off thing. She's 29, he's 20. They're both kind of fucking around. Not a big deal. But apparently, according to Gaskell, Josephine was, as he put it,

quote, spreading it around that Kurt Smith had her pregnant. Not got her pregnant, had her pregnant, which is a real, real hillbilly way to fucking say got her pregnant. Spreading it around that Kurt Smith done had her pregnant. He just dropped done probably out of his syntax. Very recently, I would say, was spreading it around to Kurt Smith, done. Had her pregnant. So had her pregnant.

And apparently they had a gathering that night. This is what the party was, quote unquote. Yeah. Loose quotes. Was to get Josephine over there and he said, quote, to straighten it out. Okay. And he said, quote, to straighten it out. So all there is vague, vague things floating around that she may have told someone that this Kurt Smith, 20 years old, possibly impregnated her. Had her pregnant. Had her pregnant.

Had her all sorts of pregnant. And in this area, this is being spread around like wildfire apparently and it's fodder for who cares first of all especially if you don't think you did get her pregnant be like well they'll find out pretty soon that i didn't within the next nine months it's gonna be or if it's somebody else's i'll say it's not mine and we'll work it out but i mean whatever rumors are rumors but instead they said i come from had her pregnant is when you fuck a pregnant girl yeah that's i had her pregnant i had her not pregnant i had her upside down i had her in the car i had her out on the grass yeah so yeah this he had her pregnant so uh uh they this is so fucked up so instead he says i'm gonna get my whole family together

to straighten it out yeah which is weird so uh gas skill because this is a gas skills house jack gas kill okay it's at his place gas skill apparently had uh kurt smith there curtis smith and josephine uh all three of them were at gas skills apartment uh there when other it's it's it's kind of iffy whether kurt smith lives with gaskell also in this apartment or not it's kind of like hey he sometimes stays here he's not real settled he's 22 so who knows he's bouncing from people's futons he's got time he's got time to figure it out well he doesn't well spoiler alert he doesn't figure it out put it that way well he figures something out but not the way to get a life together so uh apparently they're all drinking together in the apartment uh well first it's gas

skill and kurt smith are hanging out drinking and and they get uh they get uh josephine trombetta over there she comes over to hang out and uh and she starts drinking also with them and it's it's it's a it's a light-hearted social affair it starts out at. Then other people come over. Leroy and Frances Camp, which is Kurt's mom and Kurt's stepdad. And Anne Neelis, like we said, the stepsister. And Alberta Westcott, the family friend. They arrive after the three of them, Gaskill, Kurt Smith, and Trumbetta,

are all already hanging out drinking. So it just seems like a family party sortetta, are all already hanging out drinking. Okay. So it just seems like a family party sort of thing. They're hanging out drinking. The rest of the crew comes over. Seven people all together in the room. Well, there's eight, but that one girl, like we said, comes and goes. Right.

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Once they're all assembled, they decide to confront Josephine about her rumor spreading. And he said, you said Kurt had you pregnant, didn't you? And she says, no, and I didn't. And they say,

you're a liar. And she says, no, I'm not. And they go back and forth and have a big argument. And she, like a sane person, Josephine says,

you people are out of your fucking mind. Have a good one one i'm taking off okay uh see ya she starts to head for the door it's at that point that they do not let her leave uh it's at this point where it turns into a bronx tale yeah and they close the door and they said now you just can't leave uh now she's stuck in there uh and then this is when i don't even i've never heard of a family of number one first of all for any single male person to do this i'd be like what a fucking psychopath but for a family of people to do this including a mother yeah it's i don't even know what the fuck to say about this but let's let's

let's get into the seat okay uh yeah this is uh everybody buckle up here so they take her they hold her against her will okay right away they tell her that she can't leave uh they make her sit down they at jesus christ okay they force her to remove all of her clothes first of all okay um they uh uh now this is also uh because, because he was, he was pissed off. Curtis was pissed off about this rumor spread. This is, this, that's, this is the motivation for this. Curtis is pissed off and the whole family's pissed for him. That's why this is happening.

That's why a 29 year old woman has already been kidnapped and now forced against, held against her will and is now nude. I assume also against her will. She didn't want to be there. I can't imagine she wants to be there nude. Anywhere you don't want to be, you especially want clothes on if you're going to have to be there. It's very rare when you're like, I'm leaving. They're like, nope, and you're getting nude.

You're like, now I'm partying. Now we're talking. Now we're talking. Now this is a party. The only time that happens is if you were out with a woman. You'd be like, well, I'm taking off. And she'd be like, no, no, stay and get nude. And you'd be like well i'm taking off and she'd be like no no stay and get nude and you'd be like all right well that's never mind the night has taken a turn i guess i'm staying i was clothed and that's why i was leaving that's why i was

and now i'm not so now i'll stay i guess i'll stay if it's if that's your request but instead this is not requested this is forced this poor woman uh At that point, they force her. They hit her. They kick her. They generally rough her up a little bit, but that's nothing. Then it's some psychological torture, some physical torture. They force her to sign over the title of her car to them, which is why they were then trying to sell it later. So at this point, they're all in they're like fuck this uh not only are we mad at you for doing this and we're gonna

hit and kick you or whatever or embarrass you in some crazy sick perverted disgusting criminal way but uh now we're also going to now start like that's crazy to makes to force to force a nude kidnapped person to sign over the title to their car is next level fucking crazy. And that's the difference between now and 1980. Also, is that like if somebody was like, sign your title over me, I'd be like, I got to pay the lien off first. Yeah. First of all, you have no idea what I owe on this. You want it? You want you really want that on your credit? Cool. Six to eight weeks for that.

Send over fucking rock and roll because my payments i they're they're too high if i'm being honest you want to know what the insurance is on that fucking because i'm going to cancel the is this you now because i'll cancel that shit tomorrow i don't need this moment let's say it's paid off and you have the title that's in like a lock box or up in the top top shelf of my closet this was in her she keeps the title to her in her fucking glove box it used to be back in the day they used to have to where you could sign it over on the back of the registration remember that's all on the register remember there used to be a thing where you could do that i know in new york it was a thing where it would be like a temporary like that's how you

would sign your car over would be yeah so that that's kind of the the way it would work so uh or not the right it was the registration there was some piece of something i remember where the back i remember my dad selling a car the title is like that that's it might have been the title whatever the fuck it was a piece of paper from the glove apparently in the glove compartment yeah so they force her to do that uh they then hit her some more they then uh jesus christ they shave her head at this point which is okay uh they shave her head at this point, which is okay. They shave her head. They spray paint her body from head to toe with black spray paint. So they forced her to strip, sign over her car, shave her head.

And now they have. I just put it together. That's how she got all black in the hole. That's how she got black in the hole. Yeah, she was spray painted black from head to toe, complete total body. What a weird thing to do. Yeah, well, you haven't heard anything yet. It gets not only weird, but just fucking sadistic. They beat her some more, obviously.

Punch her a little bit, knock her around, kick her. This is fucking sick. They they make her dunk her breasts in boiling water to hurt her. Also to some sort of physical torment. Now that they've psychologically tormented her and beat her and everything else. And at that point, by the way, while this is going on two different times in between all these activities, they have, Jesus Christ, they have forced her twice to perform oral sex on the dog. What? Twice.

During this. Yeah. This twice. No. They were doing all this and they're like, let's have her blow the dog again. Is this like a really bad porn? No. now bring the dog in yeah bring the dog in again this has happened to a human being like this is horrific the mo this is like a bunch of people just with like bad ideas like this is like wiley coyote fucking got mad because somebody said that

he knocked her up but how do you make so he got him in and was doing acme fucking stunt torture to her this is ridiculous what 12 year old mind thinks of this what what kind of this person's mother was there yeah curtis's mother was there his mother was like make her blow the dog then spray paint her that'll teach her like what the fuck is happening here if curtis had the idea first and she's like that's my boy yeah i don't mean to put the the the onus on the mother put him on the women but that's jesus christ that's just bizarre that somebody's mother would be okay with their son doing that to any woman you think i don't even know i don't know what the fuck apparently leroy was the main uh instigator and all this is from what everybody says he's the main instigator in all this is from what everybody says. He's the main instigator.

But after all this, this takes place over six hours. Oh, Jesus. This isn't fast. This is a six-hour process. This is them fucking with her, deciding what to do with this person on an hour-by-hour basis. And her, I'm sure, scared shitless about this whole thing and being just tortured to the whims of a bunch of lunatics yeah this is crazy it's escalating in level of like of mutilation and pain of boiling water yeah that's crazy it goes from humiliation to to

actual pain and then and beatings also along the way during the whole thing, the physical. Jesus Christ. They asked Gaskell if anyone hit her so hard that she started to bleed. And he stated that Curtis Smith, quote, got up and just started swinging wild and hit her inside the head. And some blood trickled out the side of her head. He tried to say upside. Upside. And he said inside the head. Yeah. He said hit her up inside the head or the side of her head. He tried to say upside. Upside. And he said inside the head.

Yeah. He said hit her up inside the head or hit her inside the head. So apparently Curtis Smith, the one who's been so wronged. I mean, good Lord. Honestly. How dare her have sex with somebody else? No, not only that. She didn't even have sex with somebody else. How dare her maybe tell someone mistakenly

that he possibly impregnated her when i'm sure they were having unprotected sex so god i'm sure you know what could have happened she could have been a week late on her period she could have told her friend she may have been panicked i'm scared i'm a week late and she said holy shit do you know whatever it's it's curtis i've been with curtis blah blah blah and she's like okay then she told her friend hey curtis fucking knocked up josephine and next thing you know in a small town curtis knocked up josephine and you're getting your head shaved you're blowing a dog this is fucking insane with krylon just talk to people and what the fuck man this is nuts so apparently curtis did that he was the one who was really beating her pretty badly. Gaskell also described more blood.

They would have to attempt to stop the bleeding because they cut her open. They attempted to stop the bleeding with a towel. Apparently, after six hours of abuse, and this is the worst. I mean, Jesus, I don't know. This could be worse than Rulo, I think. This is bad, man. There wasn't much be worse than Rulo I think this is this is bad man there wasn't much dog blowing in Rulo no I mean it was goat rearing

yeah that's true but this is bad this is pretty brutal this is fucking somehow worse because it's not on a farm and it's like so many more people and it's his mother I don't know I just feel like your mother should yell at you for disrespect like if I came up with the idea to do anything near this in front of my mother or my grandmother,

they would beat the shit out of me for this. What the hell is wrong with you being nice to women? Are you crazy? There's no way. If I sprayed spray paint near a woman, my mom would be like, you could get it in her eye. Oh, forget it. It would be over. It would be over.

What is wrong with you? So after six hours of abuse, they pick her up, dust her off. She's still covered in spray paint, has a shaved head. She's burned. She's beaten. She's lumped. She's got cuts on her head. She's bleeding.

They dress her. They help her get dressed because she needed help because she was in such pain from being beat on. They help her put her clothes on and they tell her, we're going to take you you to the bus station now so this is how she's going to ride the bus apparently they're going to put her on a bus is that the plan they were going to they she curtis was so embarrassed they're going to beat her up real bad and put her on a bus to god knows where and that'll teach her right like i don't know what she thought i don't know i don't know. I don't know. But instead, Gaskell. Now, they leave the women behind at the apartment. Gaskell, Leroy Camp, the stepfather, and Curtis Smith, they all take Josephine in Camp's mother's, in Curtis's mother's car.

So they take them in the mother's car. And they say they're driving out to uh to to the bus station instead they take her off the road to a dirt road in some backwoods near a gravel pit and uh gaskill of course to the police he says no i don't know what was i fell asleep along the way of course because isn't it funny how all these stories like something they always just fall asleep in the middle of this horrific thing that they're doing. So they've got to detach themselves from the horrible part. Yeah, well, they have to tell the police. Look, I mean, I didn't do the bad part, obviously, but I was there enough to tell you that, you know, because you know I was there and try to get away with it.

So he said he fell asleep along the way, so he didn't recall exactly where they stopped. But he did admit that shovels were put in the car before they left the house. So if you're putting shovels in the car, you're probably not going to the bus station. We'll put it that way. He said, quote, it was mentioned or it was not mentioned. Nobody mentioned it, but he had an idea that they were possibly going to kill her. But, you know, the fact that they've gone too far to turn back. And they put shovels in the car.

So only fucking genius to deduce that. Good job, Gaskell. You are a sharp. Don't let anybody ever tell you that this family is inbred of any kind. They're very sharp. They stopped the car. Gaskell says that Curtis Smith and Leroy josephine out into the woods and out of his sight obviously right he said uh that when they returned to the car without her sometime

later uh gaskill was told to help them dig a hole yeah which is a bad sign again we got to get down to the bus stop yeah we're going to the bus stop so what i like to do before i take anyone to like if someone needs a ride to the airport i stop and dig a hole along the way i mean it's good luck and safe travels i feel like it's just a weird superstition i have maybe it's an italian thing i don't know shortcut to the terminal it's a shortcut yeah we're gonna go underneath yeah we can put you right out by the right out by the stairs of the plane there you pop right up so instead the gas kills called told to dig a hole uh help dig a hole uh he described them uh saying uh they said they were digging what he believed to be a quote grave hole which is a yes uh i would say a hole out of that just

a grave that's what i mean a grave hole this, I love the way this gas skill speaks. Like, you can tell he's a fucking moron by the way he speaks. I pictured 100% Sling Blade Billy Bob Thornton here. He said they were going to dig a grave hole. We going to dig a grave hole. Goddamn hole. Goddamn grave hole. A hole or a grave. One of the two.

Two words that are the same thing. Either one of them. If there's a corpse and you're going to dig a grave or a hole, we understand what's going to happen. We know what's going in it. We done dug us a grave hole because he had her pregnant. So Gaskill said, quote, she was bleeding. She looked pretty bad. This is when he went back there.

By the way, when they went back to dig the hole, she was still alive. She was in the woods, but still uh when they went to dig the hole she it's we'll find out what happened here did you watch them dig it oh we'll find out don't worry don't worry they uh they stopped outside uh to discuss what to do with her and leroy was the one that said quote we can't let her go uh at this point so and then uh gasgill told the police quote when when leroy was the one that said quote we can't let her go uh at this point so and then uh gasgill told the police quote when when leroy said that he gasgill said quote i didn't answer i had an idea what he meant that he wanted to kill her an idea an idea i figured i you know we couldn't let her go maybe we was going to pay her to be an on-site like a nanny type uh hang on to her

forever you ever seen mr. Belvedere? Kind of like that. Just live in the house and cook and clean and kind of take care of whoever comes by. Sit on her ball bag all the time. Make us a better family all together. Sitting on his balls. So Gaskell said he returned to the car

and described, he said he heard but didn't see Camp and Smith dragging what he believed to be the victim's body uh into the hole on the way home uh no mention was made of the killing gaskill says except that curtis smith said quote i know that she won't ever fuck me over again and then camp yelled at him to quote shut up and forget about it yeah so yeah stop talking about it i feel like camp's done this before yeah i feel like this is not new yeah territory for him there's too much um torture and actual plotted murder and then well we got to get rid of her shovels in the car and then you're talking about and he goes just shut up and forget

about it that's what you do when you kill somebody that's how cold cold individuals just get on with their life that's what i'm saying man so uh also uh january 5th 81 when gaskill talks further he describes a conversation he had with curtis smith that took place the next night after the killing on december 5th where curtis smith told gaskill that uh curtis smith had blood all over his pants and he was mad because he guessed he was going to have to throw them out now. I guess his fucking pants are ruined. There's fucking blood all over them. Now I've got to go buy a pair because that's all I've got.

I had one pair of pants. My murder pants are all bloody now. He said that at that time that Curtis Smith told Gaskill that Curtis had to, quote, cut her throat. Is that how they did it? Well, if only that was how they did it. You know what, man? If only that was how they did it, that would be great.

Not great, but that would be way better than how the fuck they did it, which is even worse. We'll get to it. We're giving a little bit of time here. So the next day they took Gaskell to a psychologist. This is 1980 remember and used hypnosis to attempt to obtain a clearer account of where the body was buried because he said i fell asleep i don't know where we pulled up in the woods it was dark piece of shit out of me

so which honestly even if you did doze off it makes sense for six hours it was the middle of the night who knows even if he didn't doze off he still might not know your headlights only shine so far that's it and if you're going like the same in the woods somewhere who knows now under hypnosis he repeated pretty much the same account of what happened but a much shorter version and with additional descriptions taken of the route that they went and the location of the murder and the grave they were subsequently That's how they zoned in on that area that they were searching. And they were right. But they just didn't get that. Yeah.

Old Bertie Shubes found it first. By the way, autopsy reveals that she wasn't even pregnant. She's not even pregnant. Way to go, Dex. Thanks. Good job. Good work. Not even pregnant.

An EPT could have solved this for you. Not fuck. They didn't even think of that. They're making her do all that shit. They could have had her pee on a fucking stick maybe or that might have been something but nope not even fucking pregnant crylon and blowing a dog came to your mind before an ept you fucking idiots yep uh unreal man so we'll find out exactly what what the final moments were here because curtis smith is finally going to crack on that and talk about it so all six people are indicted on multiple counts related to sexual assault, kidnapping,

robbery, and murder. The men are all charged with murder. The rest of the women are charged with everything else minus murder. Now, prior to Leroy Camp's trial, all the defendants moved to suppress the Gaskell statement that was made under hypnosis. And the motion was denied because they said that what he said under hypnosis matched what his original statement was. So there's no harm, no foul. Doesn't matter.

He was just reiterating. But they're saying it doesn't matter. He said it, blah, blah, blah. So whatever. blah blah blah so whatever the the only thing of extra information they got was a little bit of more information of where that the body was possibly buried which has nothing to do with the substance of the case but the point is i mean if he says the same goddamn thing when he's sober versus when he's drunk it's the right story he didn't say it was all me when he was not under hypnosis and under hypnosis he's like let me tell you how everybody killed him and they charge everybody so camp is put on trial for murder kidnapping sexual assault and a post of

other fun shit obviously after a six-week trial camp is found guilty of murder and multiple other shit obviously now what comes out in court because leroy Camp ends up for a sentencing thing. He ends up giving a little plea. Sure. So Leroy, he says, Gaskill, Kurt Smith and Leroy Camp drove from better to a wooded area near Cape May County village of Goshen in Middle Township. And they killed her. Listen, listen to what they fucking did. They brought her back there.

They buried her alive okay they buried her alive this is fucking insane buried her alive uh they had stabbed her a couple times not dead by any stretch of the imagination buried her alive went back out got dipshit gaskell there and said hey let's dig a hole here went back dug a better hole dug her back up oh my god dug her back up still alive oh no still alive stabbed her cut her throat then reburied her what the fuck yeah they buried this fucking poor woman alive anyway twice twice she was dying and then fucking after all that torture and stabs she's dying and uh and then like i said they finally slashed her throat and reburied her for a woman

that's not pregnant and you're doing this because she's pregnant literally nothing nothing she literally i mean nothing nothing she could do outside of if she stole your baby from your arms and fucking spiked it on the ground and you know fucked its head or something that would be the only and even then this is like what kind of a sick mind does this right like just even then you're like i don't want to fuck with that person because they'll do that to the baby they're crazy to me what this is not there nothing they did this for nothing now uh during sentencing this judge you can imagine, did not really like these people very much. He was a little bit pissed off at this Leroy Camp, especially.

Leroy Camp, by the way, was on parole already. Really? Oh, he's a fucking president. He's a known local scumbag who's already been on parole. And now he's the ringleader of this mess. And he sees it. The judge sees it as you brought all this shit. You forced this on everybody.

The judge says, quote, camp deserves nothing less, nothing more or less than the mercy he showed Josephine Trombetta. He is a public menace. He should be detained for the rest of his life because these evil deeds require nothing less. Which, yeah, I would fucking say so uh first degree murder all this shit uh he says you sir may certainly fuck off uh life in prison uh with uh 50 years before parole or 52 years before parole eligibility and he's 37 30 he's 30 he's 30 30 he was so in his 80s so yeah it's yeah minimum which yeah which is he's not it's 2033 i think is when he's up for parole some time he's got some time in there still uh yeah it's a first degree murder it's life in prison 25 years of parole and eligibility

first degree kidnapping is uh 20 years uh 10 years parole and eligibility. So you can start adding them up. First degree aggravated sexual assault, 20 years, 10 years parole and eligibility. Second degree robbery, five years, two years parole. For the car. For stealing Trumpetta's car. Absolutely. Aggravated assault is 10 years,

five years parole and eligibility. Everything is imposed consecutive. Oh, damn. And also they tack on a little more for his parole violation that he was there for begin with. So, yeah, it's they fucking bang her good bang this guy good on this shit, which is good. If anybody fucking deserves it, it's this

asshole. Also, at all this time, he's there after this, the other's there. After this, the other co-defendants, all five of them end up entering guilty pleas. Yeah. Because they see what he got

and the prosecutor's like, you guys want 50 years no parole? And they're all like, oh, maybe let's talk about it. Let's see. Now, can we go with 30? Maybe 30 is better.

That seems more reasonable. It's so much time. It's so much. Imagine if you're 30 and they go, 52 years, no parole. And in 52 years, you don't know if they're going to parole you. I just read what happened. If you're a parole board person and you read the person in front of you on his first parole board, that's what he did. Nope.

I'm not sure. I don't care if he's 102, never mind 82. I don't think he's getting out. I think I'm going, you know what? That's fucked's fucked up man you made her blow the dog seriously the rest wasn't enough you piece of shit manson died in prison he didn't kill a single soul that's what i mean this guy this guy participated fucking hard holy this guy was like a nike commercial he was going after it he doesn't give a shit he's following a dream yeah he's following a dream he's just doing it he's a gatorade it's pouring out of his there's orange pouring out of his pores evil coming out jesus so the woman defendants did not plead guilty to

murder but they did admit to the assault on on them and they pled guilty uh eventually curtis smith pled guilty to murder kidnapping sexual assault and robbery and was sentenced to 25 years of no parole. Yeah. So he's fucked, too. Is that 25 to life? It's life with 25 years minimum. No parole for 25. May 28th, 81. Alberta Westcott, she pleads guilty to the charges against her. During her court appearance, she said that she had to describe in detail about how they cut her hair and spray paint her and beat her and made her blow the dog and all this type of shit. She's indicted on everything except for murder there, obviously. obviously. Now, Curtis, at his plea hearing, Curtis Smith,

the guy who this whole bullshit stemmed from, this fucking idiot whose reputation was so sterling that, God forbid, somebody say that he had her pregnant, it's time to fucking pay. Meanwhile, when your reputation is that sterling, that you're such a great person. Is it that sterling?

What is he, the pastor? I mean, who cares? He's a 20-year-old kid. Wouldn't it be great to be that person that somebody's proud to be telling people? You know, when I got Lisa pregnant twice,

telling people was the last thing we wanted to do. Yeah. We were not proud of ourselves. We knew we did wrong. Right. If she's telling people,

we can't afford this. You know, I've got a bun in here. Yeah. It's Curtis's. I'm not bragging. I'm not ashamed to tell you. I think I nailed exactly how it probably got spread around. Literally, she probably told two people that she's late and it might be Curtis's.

And next thing you know, the whole bar scene knows about it. And that's that. So at Curtis's plea hearing, because he's got to do the same thing. Everybody's got to give the whole allocution. Everybody's got to give long, factual, detailed. And it's all got to match up. Sure. You pretty much have to go over it ahead of time to make sure that it's correct.

Otherwise, they'll say, oh, no, no, no. That doesn't match up with this person's thing. You actually did this. Get that shit right. He describes his role in the murder as this. He admitted to striking her beforehand in the apartment so hard that she began to bleed in several places. He hit her so hard that he broke his knuckle on her head. Oh, Jesus.

That's fucking hard. I've been in fights and I punched a lot of shit and I've never broken my fucking knuckle. I've hit a locker. I've hit a wall. I've hit fucking studs. I've hit drywall. Not just a handsome man. I've hit faces.

I've hit things. And I've never fucking once broken a knuckle. So that's hard. Like the boxer's fracture? You've never gotten that one? If I didn't fucking do anything about it. If I did, I fucked my hand up. Yeah.

Good, but I never actually fixed it. I've had some sore knuckles. That shit hurts. Oh, shit, yeah, it hurts. It'll fuck you up. No matter what you're hitting, it hurts. It hurts. It hurts.

But I've never blown up a hand either. I've never broken anything. He broke a knuckle on this poor woman's head. He said that he had to testify, because based on everybody else's he had no choice he couldn't make anything up now no uh he said that he was the one who killed her he said that he stabbed her uh the first time and then uh he stabbed her the first time and left her there and he described how when they returned to drag drag her to her final grave that she was making gurgling sounds. Oh no. And that he

was like annoyed by that. So he stabbed her and cut her throat three times just to make sure she shut the fuck up and stopped gurgling and you know like Jesus I'm trying to bury you alive. Can you shut the fuck up? Can you keep it down? Good God I mean I just got

home from work. I'm trying to bury you alive what what a complete piece of shit you're running your mouth about being pregnant when you're alive you won't shut the fuck up when you're dying lots of compassion from this guy just just a family full of compassion i don't know you go how can a person be a monster like this and then you go well look his mother's participating and married this other monster. So I get it. Yeah. He's 20. He's 20.

This guy is 20 fucking years old. And his 19 year old fucking sister was there who was like, this is normal. Here we go. Yeah. Not. Oh, my God. Mom, please stop killing a woman. Jesus.

So, yeah, he was the last of Kurt Smith was the last of everybody to plead and be charged because he was the main culprit. He pleads guilty to charges of murder, kidnapping, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault. All of those. He gets them out. Rushmore. He gets it all. Murder, rape, robbery and assault. It's all right there. He said the judge here. And again, this judge is just going off on one because he got to say, you're the biggest piece of shit I ever saw at a camp. And now he says to O'Neill, this is a definite fuck off here. Or O'Neill's the guy's name. This is what he says to Kurt Smith.

He says, quote, This is the most cruel and depraved crime I've ever been involved with. It seemed almost cult like you, sir. May fuck off life on life. No seemed almost cult-like. You, sir, may fuck off. Life on life. No parole, 25 years. Wow. Get the fuck out of here. So no parole.

And we'll talk about his parole, because think about it. That's 1981. Oh, good Christ. So yeah, whenever we do these older cases, we go, ooh, these guys could be out. So we'll talk about that in a minute. Camp appeals. Leroy Camp, by the way. He appeals. That's some bullshit. Leroy Camp, by the way. He appeals.

That's some bullshit. Yeah, that's some bullshit to appeal. After that? Yeah, he appealed in February of 1982. Jesus Christ, it's ridiculous. He pursues this in 82 and nothing comes of it. That's just his first appeal and they dismissed that pretty quickly. Also, 1993, a federal court dismissed

Camp's petition for a writ of habeas corpus. In 2000, a federal court dismissed a second petition for a writ of habeas corpus. So it took them another seven years to get another one together and they said take a fucking hike. But 2007, L leroy camp appealing

again this time he's got his shit together a little bit he's got quite the argument here he says he's got several points we'll go over he says the lower court uh erred in denying the petition of the first one because it was for ineffective assistance of counsel uh he said the trial counsel failed to investigate and call key defense witnesses yeah you what you what you admitted what you did dude not only that other people in the crime said yeah leroy told me to kill her like you're what witness is going to be there somebody's standing there going i was there he was begging him not to do it and they fucking knocked him down no uh uh they knocked the head of the biker

gang down and said get away from us leroy you fucking queer go on over there go on leroy they screamed down the rodent yeah no they didn't scream down the rodent and call him fucking uh slurs i don't think at all so uh yeah uh also trial council failed to conduct an adequate pre-trial investigation of Gaskell's vehicle. They're saying that it was all Gaskell took her in his vehicle and this had nothing to do with camp. And he wasn't even there, even though he said in court that he was there in a big, long allocution. So, yeah, trial counsel deprived camp of his right to testify, even though, gosh darn it, he was fired up, ready to tell his side of the story.

Because that's what you want, the president of a biker gang to get up and say how even though everyone involved says he was the ringleader, he had nothing to fucking do with it. Rodent. So should I call you Leroy or the rodent? I think right then you're over with the 1981 in a jury trial. Done. It's fascinating that a rat is a rodent and you've told us everything. Yeah.

And now you're trying to scurry. Sounds like it sounds like he's scared to death of what's about to happen to him in prison. It seems like it. Actually, not. He's a fucking biker gang guy. He'll probably find friends. I would imagine.

Probably. I don't know. I don't know if this is considered. I have no idea. This doesn't sound Probably. I don't know. I don't know if this is considered... I have no idea. This doesn't sound honorable by any stretch in prison terms. I would think not. I would fucking hope not.

What the fuck? No criminal is going to look upon this. I get that it's prison, but I would hope there's some sort of fucking code that says this isn't correct. There is certainly honor amongst these. If this woman killed your grandma or something, they might be like, get that way to go but no even then they'd be like it's a little over the top hey listen hey i get that we're all in prison here but uh there's a little

much that's all i'm gonna say now i'm not gonna break your balls right i'm just saying if he did this to a cop because a cop uh gave him a ticket they'd be like you are a hero so yeah i'm just saying don't put your tray next to my own re-match. That's all I'm saying. Keep your shit on the other side of the chat hole. I got a reputation to uphold, you know what I mean? I can't have people going around telling people I had him pregnant. You know what I'm saying?

What do you say, eat the fuck over there? Eat the fuck over there. Jesus Christ, man. So he also is saying that the lower court must be reversed since the sentence should have been reduced. He's saying the sentence is excessive and illegal because of a later Supreme Court ruling that is not retroactive. So it doesn't matter. The imposition of consecutive sentences is illegal and unjustly harsh.

He said that they they intentionally lined up those sentences as much as they could to keep him in as long as possible. Yeah. Yeah. You you're the idea. You're a monster. That's what the judge said. I don't want you near my daughter. The judge said you are, quote, a menace to society.

Literally said you are a fucking human monster that we can't mix with the other humans. The only way we want you out is if you're at least 82 years old. Yeah. To where a woman that's 29 could probably fend you off. Might be able to take you. Right. That's it. Even then, though,

we'll have to do a physical test. You're going to have to do some calisthenics. We're going to watch you and see what you do. You're going to be under supervision for a while. It's going to be very, very bad for you. It's a rigorous... It's a long certification process. Let's just put it that way.

You'll probably die before we're done. It's a rigorous return to society. I'm going to put you on the stairmaster with those suction cups to you. That'll probably kill you. If not, maybe you'll get out. Fingers crossed. If it doesn't kill you, then you have to stay.

If it does kill you, you get to leave. Good luck. Hey, but you're dead. Treat him like a witch. If he floats... You're free. Then he's a witch. And we have to stay. If it does kill you, you get to leave. Good luck. Yeah, but you're dead. Treat him like a witch. If he floats, then he's a witch, and we have to kill him. But if he sinks, hey, your memory is warmed. You're not a witch. Good for you.

You're dead, but you're not a witch. He's about to be super free. Super, well, dead, actually, because then you're a witch, and then they're going to kill you in a different way. So, yeah, it's also that the sentence that it was imposed on him he says is far harsher than his co-defendants yeah how dare you we should all be sentenced equally myself and my 19 year old stepdaughter had equal uh say in this no you were the ring leader you're the biker gang leader in the group so they probably listen to you you're probably

the tough one you're the only one with a nickname in this entire house. The only guy with a street name in the whole house. I'm sorry. The stepdaughter didn't have a street name. She wasn't known as the butterfly knife or the switchblade or something. She was the field mouse. The field mouse. Yeah. Also, that the lower court erred in not granting his request for an evidentiary hearing and a bunch of like little ticky tack legal shit.

Now, they say that the petition was tossed based on it being, quote, grossly out of time, noting that counsel has been unable to present any basis for the failure on the part of the defendant to file within the time period allowed. So basically, you're allowed to what it says is a petition to correct an illegal sentence may be filed at any time. No other petition shall be filed pursuant to this rule more than five years after the rendition of the judgment or sentence sought to be attacked, unless it alleges facts showing that the delay beyond said time was due to the defendant's inexcusable or excusable neglect. He had a health problem. Some lawyer had something that was judged, wasted his time. Out of his control. Out of his control.

Otherwise, you have five years to challenge a sentence, which seems like plenty of time. Yeah. You're sitting in a cot for those five years. I get legal things come up and something might come up but but there's a there's no that that's an excusable neglect that would mean i didn't have any reason to then this came up now i have reason to right this is just met five years five years sounds like a good window i mean you're seems like it it's not like you got a nine to five and you come home and you're like i am just too tired

what do i need to do again what about five oh shit i'm in prison that's right yeah no you got you're thinking a lot about getting out i'm sitting here watching a clear television yeah how long my sentence is you know clear television so uh then they explain further in the law this is kind of interesting as time passes after conviction they say the reason for this the difficulties associated with fair and accurate reassessment of the critical events multiply achieving quote justice years after the fact may be more an illusory temptation than a plausibly attainable goal when memories have dimmed witnesses have died or disappeared and evidence is lost or unattainable so that's why they try to keep it in with that which sort of makes sense and whatever uh they said that it's not a rigid

rule when an illegal sentence is in question no time limitations apply as long as they demonstrate uh excusable neglect and that apparently happens all the time and that's waived all the time they're just system yeah they're just saying you're a scumbag and you didn't have any excuse and you're a piece of shit i mean hang on to you a while. Yeah, well, the thing is, he was convicted in 81 and didn't file the first petition until 2002. That's so long. So five years is way shorter than 21 years. That's so much longer.

It's not like it was seven years. It was 21 years. You blew it, dude. They're like, who? Who the fuck are you again? They had to look his number up and be like, what the fuck did you? I don't look his number up and be like what the fuck did you i don't even know who you are you don't even look the same as your mugshot anymore

jesus your sentence can legally drink beer at this point your sentence voted three times you're legal to drink beer in prison congratulations look at you that's what they should do once you're in prison for 21 years you should be able allowed to make wine in your toilet i feel like or at least have a beer yeah no no you have to make wine in your toilet that's the only way you're allowed to drink we'll ship barley and hops and you just gotta make it you know what yeah do that it could be good it could be bad i don't know i'm not sure probably bad probably bad probably not the best thing but it would be fun for the first 20 minutes It could be bad. I don't know. I'm not sure. Probably bad. Probably bad.

Probably not the best thing. But it would be fun for the first 20 minutes. Like, this is great. They're all getting along. I'm allowed. Holy shit. We've had 14 stabbings tonight. What the fuck, man?

Yeah. So anyway, he says this loss. The judgment here says, therefore, we are charged with searching the record for a showing of the imposition of an illegal sentence, the defendant's excusable neglect for the late filing or interests of justice, which would mitigate toward our relaxation of the time bar. After a careful, careful review of the relevant relevant facts and circumstances, we perceive no such facts or circumstances that would move us to disturb the PCR court's denial of the defendant's position. Get fucked. Your sentence is great. He says he comes back with an argument that the time bar shouldn't apply because of erroneous advice given by his appellate counsel. He says that his counsel advised him that many of the issues for appeal needed to be brought forth in a federal court,

that many of the issues for appeal needed to be brought forth in a federal court. And because he contends he was forced to pursue federal remedies, he now claims that's his excusable neglect. However, he didn't do the federal things that he was talking about until 1990, which is still nine years after the sentence, which is still too fucking long, stupid. So I don't know if math isn't... It escaped him. I feel like he probably wasn't an a student i'm just gonna say no probably not uh he also says that in this case he has a sworn affidavit now saying that his defense counsel would not allow him to take the stand

in order to testify on his behalf and the defense counsel threatened to quit if he testified on his own behalf now horseshit yeah if you go to a judge and say i want to testify and this motherfucker threatened to quit if i testify that judge would go he has a right to testify if you quit i'm going to hold you in fucking contempt of court for that 1 000 times out of 1 000 times that is not allowed you sorry it's his case and it's his life and I'm not going to allow you to quit in the middle of a trial because he wants to take the stand in his own defense. It's his right. Also, that's going to help this trial go really fast.

Let him sit down and talk. And it's going to be fucking hilarious. Put him up there. He's going to try to make excuses for making a woman blow a fucking dog. Let's honestly, let's seriously hear what this dickhead has to say. It's an interesting color that they chose to paint her too yeah i'm fascinated i think that's all they had you think that's what it is you think they like meant to like racially dehumanize or something

like try to make jokes i don't know if they were i don't know how they seem such scum they're probably racist i'm sure but i feel like they get some get some paint what do we got and he's like i got got some black Krylon. They're like, fuck, good enough. Yeah, I was painting that bike frame that I stole off the neighbor's porch the other day. Remember the wrought iron fence was rusty? Yeah, so it ain't no more. It was just the tip.

I got a lot of paint left. Tons of it, tons of it. So he says, it says in here, the judgment, our state Supreme Court has recognized that the right to testify is essential to state based concept of due process of law, which guarantees fair and impartial trial. They said that obviously he's entitled to to to testify if he wants. But the fact that this exchange happened in court probably means that it's not his lawyer's fucking fault. Yeah, this this exchange happened in court. The judge said to him, quote, you'll have to go through him. Quote, I'll ask for Mr. Camp now.

Mr. Camp, would you stand up a moment? Your attorney has asked me to direct this question to you. Namely, you understand you have a privilege against self-incrimination. You do not have to testify against yourself. Moreover, if you wish to exercise the right to testify, you will certainly be permitted to do that. And I was just going to ask you if there's anything you want to tell the court at this time as to whether you do care to testify or you prefer to exercise your privilege against self-incrimination. So that's clear cut, not asking the lawyer. I'm asking you in court. Right in your face. What do you want to do? And he said, quote,

Your Honor, I feel that I should testify so that the court would know what happened that night due to the circumstances of your decisions on bringing up my past record, though. I feel it would be prejudiced to the jury and it would just make things a lot worse than what the witnesses already said and some of their lies that they said. All right. So he said, I want to say I want to say my piece. But then my character shit comes up and uh they're just going to bring up a whole bunch of other rapes and shit that i did in the past and it kind of looks bad if you put it out in like a trial type setting it looks bad you know you just lay it out in the light of day you know if we're sitting around having a couple beers

around the bonfire or something it don't sound that bad in context it's great it sounds kind of fun actually it's going on a run bad read bad read here in the daytime with with the ladies present you know how that goes it just doesn't sound good it's like reading stand-up like you read somebody's not that good not so funny it's a context everything the court the judge said well you certainly have a right to do that and if you're prepared to that, we'll proceed because we have the jury here. And then they took a recess. And the defense attorney said, Judge, I think he said he didn't want to testify. And Mr. Camp, Leroy says no, because of those reasons. So he says, I don't. The judge says, well, you see, I can't be your lawyer. You're going to have to decide whether it's in your interest and talk it over with your attorney to testify or not. He won't get it through his head.

He doesn't want to testify. The defense attorney says, judge, I think what he says is he wanted to testify. But because of your honor's ruling that the convictions could come up as past bad deeds, he does not want to testify. Court says, OK, is that right, Mr. Camp? And Leroy says, yes, I didn't want to fucking testify. Lawyer, nothing to do with it between you and the fucking judge. So they said, based on that fair exchange, clearly you could have testified if you wanted to and go fuck yourself. Other one, they said that they said that he says that he makes several arguments.

Camp does regarding the ineffective nature of his trial and appellate attorney saying that he's required to show a reasonable likelihood of succeeding with a different strategy. And basically they don't. There's no way of winning this. Yeah. They said the great majority of what he calls errors asserted to the to the by the defendant can be attributed to viable trial strategies. It's just strategy. How hard do we want to question this person? Or how hard do we want to question that person?

Or do we want to introduce that? Or when? It's all defense strategies. That's part of the game. That's like saying a head coach is trying to throw the game because he decided to run on third and two instead of pass. Was Pete Carroll trying to blow the Super Bowl? You've got Marshawn Lynch. Yeah, that's what i mean but it's it's still that's a viable strategy to to if that pass goes in the end zone he looks like a genius god damn genius of course they knew he was gonna

run the lynch so they got lynch of course he threw it absolutely so that's what i mean it's it's all that's why it's be careful picking an an attorney. You've got to be careful with everything. Try to make enough money to have an attorney that you pay for and will follow what you say. A courtroom is a suited war zone. You fucking, you have your strategy and you go into war with that strategy. You stick with it. How it comes out, how it comes out. Yeah.

Sometimes you lose 34 fucking 17 and that's life, man. You can't change a halftime game time decision. You absolutely can't. They said that the, in this one, the defendant must overcome a strong presumption that counsel exercised reasonable professional judgment and sound trial strategy in fulfilling his responsibilities. And they called what he's talking about with his lawyer, bare allegations, no indication that any omissions of the trial counsel, nothing happened on purpose. The jury had a full and fair chance to evaluate the evidence and found you guilty. No independent or cumulative error by the counsel could have affected this decision. The sentencing arguments, basically they say, it's the thing with the filing and all this shit.

And they say, sorry, asshole, not in time. Everything he said is bullshit affirmed rot in jail for 52 years dickhead see you around see you around so curtis smith appeals uh his he filed a direct appeal he raised uh his objection to the admission of the statement stirring made during hypnosis by jack gaskell and uh they rejected those those arguments in his first appeal and told him to eat dicks and sent him packing on his fucking merry way. 2015, though, is another appeal. This is an appeal of parole denials because he's been up for parole several times, several times. And again, he's talking about the hypnosis on this uh which is ridiculous they say the court

found no merit in smith's argument that more current and stringent regulations involving the use of hypnotically refreshed testimony should be retroactively applied to his case smith argued is guilty pleased to charges of murder kidnapping aggravated sexual assault aggravated assault robbery were induced by threats from the prosecution to use hypnotically refreshed statements from from Jack Gaskell. So they're saying that even after the whole thing, he had new hypnotically. They had like this secret trove of hypnotic statements that that they were going to use on him if he didn't plead guilty.

Those bastardly bastards. Court found no merit in that argument. They said, go fuck yourself. Other co-defendants confirmed the statements in their guilty pleas, and no one, including Curtis Smith, has ever contested the truth or reliability of the facts set forth in the statements given by Jack Gaskell, either under hypnosis or not. So the whole thing is bullshit. He's not eligible to apply for parole again till next

year 2019 no this was in 2015 so 2016 he filed two other state pcr petitions and uh two federal habeas corpus applications all of which were denied uh he was denied his first two applications for parole and he has to wait till 2016 so he's been in jail for almost 30 years basically well shit now more 35 years he's been in jail for uh which is crazy i'm not good at math and i mean that's goddamn 35 years yeah the parole board in the latest denial relied in part on his pre-sentence report and the attached hypnotically induced statement of Gaskell, which is what he keeps fighting. Now he's saying that he takes the parole board to court, saying that not only should the hypnotically introduced things have happened before, but now they're keeping me off parole, which is even worse. So now he's whatever. It's ridiculous.

off parole which is even worse so now he's he whatever it's ridiculous uh but they said that uh the the parole board they they rule that hypnotic statements or not they're relying primarily on other information including curtis smith's own statements that he you know stabbed her fucking dragged her was angry at her gurgling slashed her throat a bunch of times and then finally buried her alive for the second time. It's so hard to listen to. It's the fucking work. It never gets easier. After all the other shit. Like, this woman had the worst ending to her fucking life

of anybody I've ever heard, almost. Also, the board noted that he still did not seem remorseful. He wasn't remorseful at his first parole hearing when they told him, hey, if you want to get paroled, you should probably show remorse. He showed up and was still not fucking remorseful at all still blaming other people still saying that there he's being screwed over also they uh they noted that uh he during his parole hearing he attacked the character of the victim oh boy here's what you don't do during your

parole hearing say that the victim fucking deserved it that's what you don't do you don't understand she was talking shit oh i'm i'm sorry everybody let's reconvene we didn't we didn't realize she was every she's been talking shit no she she was talking sir you're free to sir we're we apologize for taking 30 years of your life uh we she deserved every last thing that happened to her how many times you make her blow the dog 12 that you know what you were you were kind you should have made her do it three times because holy shit uh this guy's a fucking complete fucking what an idiot he's a dummy yeah and also uh he continually blamed his relatives for causing him and forcing him to do the terrible things that he did to his former girlfriend that night so not only is it not his, it's the people who forced him to do it, but it's her fault for being a fucking whore, apparently,

or a loudmouth or whatever his stupid complaint was. Where the hell was my mother? Wow, what a complete asshole, man. Yeah, right there, cheering him on. He claims that at the time he received his second parole denial, he became aware of the hypnotically refreshed memory thing, but they say retroactively it doesn't matter. And there's no record here that he challenged any of the facts contained in his pre-sentence report, whether supplied by his uncle under hypnosis or from anybody else, including in his own fucking words and Leroy camps and everybody else. else.

His also, his argument that the parole board improperly relied on the hypnotic statement lacks sufficient merit and that they tell him to officially eat dicks on a state level actually now. Dog ones. Dog ones. Listen, we've all decided that dog dicks are best for you, sir, on a state level. Canine chomping is all for you. Yeah. K9 chomping is all for you.

Yeah. Now, this is all after in 2013, another judge rendered a decision denying his PCR petition on the same issue. Find that it wasn't filed in time. Blah, blah, blah about the hypnosis. Co-defendants confirmed each other. So he's been repeatedly now told to eat dicks. From everything I found, both of those two assholes are still in jail. Right. From what I know, I of those two assholes are still in jail. Great. From what I know,

I'm not sure about Gaskill. I couldn't find out about Gaskill, and I assume the women are out by now, because they got 25 years. So, even if they did the whole thing, they're still out. They're out in 06. They're out in 06. So, they're all out, but I don't think they're the dangerous ones. I'm going to say that

as long as Leroy Camp and this piece of shit are away, it's probably for the best. And Gaskill, too. I would hope that they're the dangerous ones i'm going to say that as long as leroy camp and this piece of shit are away it's probably for the best and i would hope gas bill to registered sex offenders wherever they're at oh fuck yeah yeah fuck yeah no that was hardcore sexual assault and aggravated sexual assault they're 100 sex if they're on the radar i hope that you get flyers about these people your goddamn door even if they don't live near you yeah just hey these people exist listen to what they did i want that in the mail there's just a link to this episode listen to this shit i mean seriously just that's all and they back the fuck off and uh man so they're all in prison thankfully poor josephine trombetta i don't think i've heard of a worse fate for a person.

It's horrific. I mean, she thought she was just going over for a drink with her on-again, off-again boyfriend, and then this all happened. And she chose to get out of there, and then they wouldn't let her. Yeah, and she had to feel somewhat safe feeling that his mother was there, his younger sister was there. The rodent was there. The rodent's there. It's party time.

So, I mean mean he's like captain kangaroo new jersey version but i mean if someone's mother and younger sister are there you automatically feel like oh everything this is a safe environment like their family's probably not going to kill me as a whole because the mom and little sister are here so everything's cool it's really usually they're the calming ones but instead uh the rodent if he's in charge anything's possible i guess so uh that is middle township new jersey the panhandle of new jersey and uh jack gaskell curtis smith leroy camp and neilis amber westcott and uh what's her name the camp's mother yep francis camp i believe it believe. It sure was. Francis. It was.

It absolutely was because it was Leroy and Francis Camp. I'm just agreeing. I don't know how the fuck I remember all that. There were so many people and they're all equally awful. Amber Westcott. That's the other one. Yeah. They're all terrible, awful people in a terrible, awful place doing terrible, awful, horrible things to each other.

What a fucking nightmare. Wow. That's Middle Township. I'm so glad you found found this i don't know how nobody's heard about this this was so it was covered i found the court documents and i found some uh a couple of very local newspaper orchard beach news shit like that uh local newspapers that covered it from around that no ap pickup no anything what was going on at this time that they were like we got other shit i mean i guess the hostages and i guess but still

how did the crisis she the things they made her fucking do what the fuck that is the most uh how did nobody say these people look what they did oh Oh, my God. This poor fucking girl. Jesus Christ. So fucked up. Yeah. So the craziest part to me, being honest, there's no drugs involved. None. I mean, they wasn't brought up.

I'm sure they were drinking. But booze was all of it. That's bananas. That's a lot of booze. Yeah. Well, I think the booze was probably just to loosen them up to get them to the point where they could do this. Get to murder time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think the booze was probably just to loosen them up to get them to the point where they could do this. It's a murder time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure. I don't know if the rodent can throw down sober, but everybody else probably could use a couple of drinks if they're going to fucking do all those. If they're going to, you know, beat a woman and paint her black and burn her breasts and shave her head and bring the dog in the room.

Bring the day. Where's Sparky? Bring him on in here. That that's insane if you like that story um please recommend it to a friend if telling this is the weirdest story you've ever heard uh do all of that shit uh get on itunes apple podcast whatever it is the purple icon thing give us five stars just tell us whatever you want it's not for our ego it really really isn't it's just to keep driving us up the charts with which you guys have done so much for us to do. Thank you so fucking much for that. Honestly, we really, really appreciate that. And everything you do for us, if you want to buy merch, very easy to do.

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So sorry about that. I'm going to keep you out in the snow there. Sorry. Sorry. And then Denver. Enjoy your mall. And then Denver. And at the end of November, we have Philly, Cincinnati, and then New York.

And the most stupidest routed thing I've ever heard in my life. They said, hey, how can we get them the most possible time in the air? Is that possible? It's like a scheme for airline miles. Fuck my sanity. I need miles. Jesus Christ, we have that. And now we end up with the last show of the trip.

Hell on earth. The furthest place from from home boston detroit chicago baltimore i betcha fuck me all in four straight days my i'm gonna tell like this in in baltimore hey guys i'm not telling you guys i like the wire i'm gonna make him whisper it we're gonna have to i'm gonna be like i'm gonna have to be like a mute at these meet and greets to save my voice i'm gonna be like and shake hands and give high fives i'm just gonna be like i'm gonna be like teller yeah so i'm gonna be i'm just gonna smile and nod at everybody because i gotta save my voice teach you a card trick i'm saying man jesus christ so please come out to

these live shows pull an ace of spades out of somebody's mom's asshole see us do magic fucking magic and honestly guys if you haven't been to a live show just go on social media and ask people just go in one of these groups say who's been to a live show and just let them tell you because we feel like dicks we don't want to tell you we feel like dick saying that it's the best fucking comedy show you're going to see and you probably have seen and you've never laughed that hard at a stand-up show i goddamn promise you that and uh we feel like dick saying that but it's true it's fun we throw down at these live shows and uh it's it's just a lot it's this plus the energy of being live plus visuals which is a whole other level when we do the visuals the visuals rodent yeah that's what i mean the visuals are a whole other level not only do you see that too we throw in believe me i'm

it's fun i'm a crafty fuck with these things uh so uh please come out to these live shows uh also before we get to the producers one thing because uh i got messages and i've gotten these over the course of the show but lately i've gotten a bunch of them that say, why don't we do credits at the end of the show? Like what? Like at the end of the show, they go, hey, a producer this week was so-and-so and research done by this person. Music by, you know, fuck your mother in the twat. You know what I mean?

Like they do that little thing at the end. It's the quick editor by edited by this guy. And they have like a credit list of like so long of Jimmy P is a list of like, well, at the end they have a list of like six, seven people that put the podcast together. We don't have a list. That's why we don't do credits. We got a list of people. We have a list of people that are our producers.

But as far as like, hey, we do this. It's just fucking, I'm just doing some shit. So it's not a big deal. I don't know why some of you need eight people to put a fucking show together for 45 minutes. When I do just fine doing it with just me and fucking Jimmy giggling overiggling over here but it's fine we have credits at the beginning hi i'm james petrogallo with my colors i'm jimmy that's the show there's no one else is involved that's it sarah says hide back to you on social media and stuff that's our fucking team and does some marketing and shit like that but the actual production of the show it's skeletons you're

looking at it it's this i'm gonna go going to go. Jimmy's going to go home. It is actually midnight. We need to put the show out right now. Midnight, motherfucker. It is 1230. It's 1230 on when the show. This is Thursday morning when the show needs to come out. I'm going to go up, edit it real quick, and put it the fuck out because I was at horrible

service in a restaurant. My dad's in from out of town, and we went out to eat, and it was horrible service. It took an hour and 20 minutes to get priests. It's smoked meat. You fucking idiots. It's a barbecue place. How does that take it? Never mind.

So that said, I have to say thank you. And we have to say thank you to our long list of our favorite people in the world, our producers who you can you can find that. And if you want to be a donor or a producer, a wonderful hero of the show, you can do that from shutupandgivememurder.com. There's links there that will take you to patreon.com slash crimeandsports and also over to PayPal. Use our email address, crimeandsports at gmail.com, and you can make a one-time donation there. You want to get a hold of us, you can do that at crimeandsports at gmail.com, at smalltownmurder on Instagram, at murdersmall on Twitter, SmallTownPod on Facebook.

And, Jimmy, I need to hear, after that horrible story, I need to hear something that's going to cheer me up, like the list of my favorite goddamn people on Earth. Hit me with it like a fucking lightning bolt, Jimmy Wissman. This week's executive producers are Kenneth Meinhart, Michael Kennedy, who donated twice this week. Thanks again, man. Thank you so much, Mike. Nicholas Levitt, Eva Tarowska, who moved back to England, but thank you so much, Eva. Oh, gave up on us?

She, her work visa expired. Ah, shit. Well, we're sorry to lose you. Thank you very much. Cheryl L. Wright, Caitlin Stupik, Deniseise herdman maria maria martinez and christianne costaldi thank you guys thank you guys so much christianne comes through all the fucking time you guys are fucking heroes thank you really uh sheldon murphy uh tyler atkinson in san francisco that was the fellow that we helped on stage uh oh yeah man cool dude yeah

dude nice nice saying that guy yeah dude good dude thank don't fucking run off next time dude that i that is the bravest man i've ever seen i know truly blind people don't give a shit because they're like dude this is what we do right but for people like us that are you know fucking scared of the world anyway this guy goes out by himself don't give a fuck i'm gonna do my shit not gonna mess up my world awesome dude man we respect the hell out of you, bro. Keep going, Tyler. I know you deal and you battle and you're a fucking good kid. Thank you. Brendan Ables, Jesse Hartman, Hunter Perry, Sugarfoots Cupcakes. Not sure what they are.

Brendan Ables is that teenager too, right? The teenage kid? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so. Yeah, he's a teenager. He's a good kid.

Thanks for that, man. Appreciate it. Stephanie Ponchett, Samantha Bonesar. She's the czar of the bone. Oh. Thank you, man. Appreciate it. Stephanie Ponchett, Samantha Bonesar. She's the czar of the bone. Oh. Thank you, Samantha. Thank you. David Ranazzi.

For all of your contributions. Rob Madersky. That's the dude that was in Detroit, I think, with his daughter. Maybe it was New York. Maybe it was Chicago. Yeah, I get confused on cities. I remember. I remember.

It was called there. It was chilly out. We know that much. David Clark. Eric Langenneacker, Karen Lambiase. That's the one that brought us to the suites in San Francisco. Thank you, Karen. That was so cool. Jessica Schaefer, Andrew Cordovas, Timothy Jenkins, Corey Browks, who is the president

of the Lionel Lake's Pronunciation Committee. Hey, very nice. He wants to always remind you that oh thank you cory's a dick we need him i like it cory uh tess garcia not dick but you know what i mean yeah no you like dick too just move on tess garcia reagan shalkley uh martina liluanga uh oh yeah nice to see you again thanks martina uh tyler sheets catherine hints or heintz uh matt matt dietrich uh gwendolyn very james fraker from la that's the guy that was oh in the time suck hat over there cool cool cool yeah nice to meet you james pleasure to meet you uh cynthia mixer sinfully delightfully clean eating uh sarah right uh lindsey roosten or

rustin uh laura schwartz uh laura schwartz, Laura Schwartz, Laura Schwartz, hockey. There you go. Go see Laura and Schwartz. She make hockey shit. I don't know. There's her last name. Is it hyphen hockey? No, it wasn't hyphen.

Oh, it might be. Maybe her last name's also Justin Miller donates every show that he listens to. And I think you may have wrapped up because he sent us a nice donation. Wow. Thank you so much. I mean, all of them are nice. No, anything bigger one was yeah we appreciate the hell out of you thank you uh big rig rick and also the homies down in in florida uh they they are all guilty they say and uh and also that we're safe uh they're tough to imagine but i like it they'll make sure that our buttholes stay tight if we're ever incarcerated in Florida. Nice.

I'm happy to hear that. That's good. It's very important to me. Big Rick, who sounds like a very tough man. Thank you, Big. Thanks. Big Rick. No, Big Rig.

It's Big Rig Rick. Big Rig Rick sounds like a guy who'll beat you with a tire jack. Not even like a small, like a hydraulic one that you have to stand on and pump. One of those, pick it up and beat you with it. The lumberjack one. Yeah, yeah. Jason Fuller. Again, thanks, Jason.

Oh, thanks, man. Brian Tool. Jordan Barrett donated twice. Thank you, Jordan. Actually, both ways. Patreon and then PayPal. Thank you. Pass and mouth.

Okay. Good thanks, brother. Both of them. Appreciate it. Gina XL. Catman Do Real Estate. Neil Campbell. Christopher Ross. Under the Sea Fabrics, of course.

Oh, thank you. Kirsten Brozvic-Flatjord, I think that's true. I think that's true. I think that's right. I think that's true. Laura Ashton, Kyle Knapp, Rika Dayo, Rika, Rika, R-I-K-K-A, Rika. Rika? It's Rika, right?

Sure. Dayo. Ricka it's a tough one jason miller not the jason miller who's in trouble by the way no no not that jason mayhem's going back to jail yeah yeah yeah fucking dipshit of course he is maria taylor megan simmons megan simmons jen gross uh alice l-a-l-y-s i I think. David Clark, Kayla Pentecost. David, no, no, Devin. It's Devin Merriman. Drew Manery. Manery.

Is that a man boob? A manery? Manery? No, it's manery for sure. Oh, yeah, maybe. That'd be manery. Right. It's a manery.

Man-mary. Ryan Bear. Bear. Ryan Bear. Amanda Mitchell. John Pickett. Nick Jubry. Laura Christensen, Frank Maggio. Hey.

That's our guy. Franky. Lisa Benadry. Lisa, thank you. Thank you, Lisa. Kim Owens-Goldstein, Callie Ander, Dana Papalia. Jesus Christ, that's tough. I'm going to roll today.

Amy Williams, Tony Naune, Matthew Pauk, Scott Dawson, and Christine Stange. It's not strange. It's Stange. Stange. Thank you guys so much. We can't do this shit without you. Thank you so much. Honestly, guys, we're blown away by your support

it really is and we're just so happy thank you we're making a program note uh we're going to be making a network change at the beginning of the year so we want to tell everybody that ahead of time now in case they catch up later they're just about they could be listening to this in january or february so as of januaryst, we're going to be making a network change. It will still be on all the same platforms and all. It will change nothing. But if for like two days, if we don't show up on Spotify, don't lose your fucking minds, we'll be back.

We'll be on there. It's just a transition. We're transitioning to another network that's way, way, way, it's going to be a good move for us and everything. It's helpful. It's helpful, and it's all a good thing. So no worries there. But just to let you guys know technically.

And man, it's been a lot of fun this week. And Jimmy, what if they want to tell you how fun it's been for them? How can they do it? You can find me at Wiseman Sucks, W-H-I-S-M-A-N Sucks, on Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat. And thank you guys for being involved. Having you guys around is fucking, it's really, it makes the show much better. Just having an audience, obviously, but people that are involved is fantastic. Especially when you give a shit.

Yeah, no doubt. And Tim and Scott and Billy, I work with the fellas. Oh, cool. And they are amazing men that didn't tell me they were coming to the show, but they found their way out there. Fuck yeah. Thanks for coming, guys. Did I get to meet them? I believe you did.

Okay, I hope so. Well, thanks if I did. I imagine so. They're great dudes. Met a lot of great people. It was really fun. And thank you guys all for coming, guys. Did I get to meet them? I believe you did. I think so. Okay, I hope so. Well, thanks if I did. I imagine so. They're great people. Met a lot of great people. It was really fun. And thank you guys all for coming to the shows. These live shows don't happen without you guys.

Yeah, this is it, man. Obviously. It's a really shit show without an audience. And when you guys are there, it's not a shit show. No, we'll have a ball alone. We don't care. We don't give a shit. We do it right now.

We just did it right now. Yeah, we just did it. It was great. But the energy with you guys there is mind-boggling so we just love it and everybody leaves with a smile on their face and if they don't that shit's on them because we had a good fucking time you guys kick it up a notch like crazy and we appreciate it where can they tell you oh my you can do that very easily at jimmy p is funny you can find me or just copy and paste my last name from the show description. Don't be a hero.

You can't spell it. No. So don't even fucking try. That said, credits on the show. I did a bunch of shit and so did Jimmy. So here we are. Till next week, everybody. It's been our pleasure.

Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects

connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder

is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.