Small Town Murder - #97 - Overwhelming Evidence Of Overkill in Belmont, New Hampshire

Episode Date: December 13, 2018

This week, in Belmont, New Hampshire, a couple's fiery relationship causes everyone around them concern, until the whole thing erupts, taking down others in the process. The sheer cockiness of the murderer is as astonishing as his complete ineptitude for the actual acts. Fingerprints, blood, and even an eye witness end up being discovered, but is that enough to keep him from further terrorizing New Hampshire? It's a wild one!! Along the way, we find out that a mill sounds like a boring place to work, that those who do meth together, tend to stay together, and that human beings just aren't very flammable! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday!!Please subscribe, rate, and review!Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!Head to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder!For merchandise: crimeinsports.threadless.comCheck out James and Jimmie's other show: Crime in Sports Follow us on social media!Facebook: facebook.com/smalltownpodInstagram: instagram.com/smalltownmurderTwitter: twitter.com/MurderSmall Contact the show: [e-mail] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Belmont, New Hampshire, a couple's argument spills out of control, causing death and bad feelings for everyone. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

hello everybody and welcome to small town murder yay yay indeed jimmy yay indeed thank you folks so much for joining us we are excited for another week of mayhem and lunacy and uh murder i guess you could say right uh thank you for everything this week by the way a couple things to announce number one we won an award we did which is pretty cool uh thank you to discover pods uh does a discover pod does a contest thing every year with all all of it we won the best true crime category with small town murder yeah it was cool we were in it with a lot of the heavy hitters of the true crime and big media companies and stuff like that and And two jackasses put it together and somehow beat the Washington Post. So whatever. Thank all of you.

I don't know. Thank you guys for that. Thank you, DiscoverPod. Thank you guys for all of your iTunes slash Apple podcast purple icon, for lack of a better term, reviews. Thank you for that this week. They really helped drive us up the charts. So if you haven't done that yet, please get on that. Give us five stars if you would. Doesn't really matter what

you say. It's not for our ego. I think you have to write something, but whatever. I don't know what it is. Just say whatever you want. It's just to drive us up the charts, whatever it is. Thank you so much for all of that and everything you want to know about the show. You can find it. Shut up and give me murder dot com which is uh you can get your tickets to live shows like boy this is the last weekend guys of this tour so get in here get in it today tonight if you're listening to this today it comes out on december 13th we are in boston right now because uh we are i'm flying out i have to be at the airport at 4 30 this morning to go to boston so we'll be in boston Boston at the Wilbur Theater there.

So come see us there. We're in Chicago the next night at the Vic on Friday, Saturday at the Fillmore, which is a nice old theater in Detroit. And then Sunday, rounding it out with Silver Spring, Maryland, outside of Baltimore, D.C. there. And I think it's a Fillmore there, too. It's also the Fillmore. Also the Fillmore. Come to these shows. Come hang out with us. We're only there once a year. I mean, Boston has been a couple of times. Boston, too. It's also the Fillmore. Also the Fillmore. Come to these shows. Come hang out with us.

We're only there once a year. I mean, Boston has been a couple of times. Boston, we've been there a couple of times. Chicago has been a couple of times. This is our third time. This is the last one. Chicago, this is our third time in Chicago in a year. This is our last time this year.

You keep coming out. So, yeah, we're not planning on touring again for a little bit while, a concentrated tour. We do have January 25th is Seattle. That show was moved. We announced that last week in case you didn't hear it. If you still have tickets to the old Seattle show that got postponed, they're still good. Otherwise, come and get those.

And West Palm Beach, Florida. Boy, are people jacked about that. Yeah, Florida. They're like, they're coming to Florida. We're like, awesome. Yeah, I think that's going to do well. I think so. West Palm Beach, Florida on February 21st.

Can I tell you how excited I am about that? That's going to do well. I think so. West Palm Beach, Florida on February 21st. So get your tickets to that. Can I tell you how excited I am about that? That's going to be fun. Just because it's Florida and we bash on them so much. Oh, yeah, and they're going to love it. They love it. And we've told them we're never coming there. Yeah, we're always ribbing them.

We're coming there. We're fucking liars. We're liars. We are liars, but we're not scumbags. We're assholes. We're assholes and liars. So you can add liars to that list there. We're lying assholes. Lying assholes, but not scumbags. assholes. We're assholes and liars. So you can add liars to that list there. We're lying assholes.

Lying assholes, but not scumbags. So there's that. Also, get your merch there, t-shirts, everything. Leggings, ladies, leggings are being made as we speak right now. Again, another thing people are jacked about. That's going to be fun. Ringtones are going to be coming out next week also. So all

the ringtones that you've wanted. Get all that stuff at shutupandgivememurder.com you can uh you can follow those uh links over to uh patreon.com slash crime in sports which is very important that's for to donate and uh that is our life's blood so thank you everybody who does that we will have a long list of wonderful producers later on that we can't thank enough or you can go over to paypal use our email address crime and sports at gmail.com to make a one-time donation we love you guys thoroughly for that we have to say i have to do the disclaimer at this point i have to do it this is a comedy podcast we are comedians we're going to make jokes uh we we do we're making jokes about small towns we're making jokes about just idiots in general, murderers.

You know, we have no other recourse against a murderer. We're comedians. The facts are all real. The stories are real. None of that is fake or, you know, embellished for comedic purposes or anything like that. What we do not do is we do not try. We go out of our way to try not to make fun of the victims or the victims families because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags.

That's how we're trying to roll we're not scumbags that's how we're trying to roll here so uh that sounds good to you awesome we're gonna have a good time it's a lot of fun we're gonna hear some uh horrible murder and some funny shit in between and uh if that doesn't sound right to you and you think that true crime and comedy never belong together you're not gonna like the show probably you just say there's a lot of serious shows look on that list of uh shows we beat there's a lot of them that you'll probably like on there. Go look at number two, three, four, five, six. They're good shows.

They're great shows. Great shows. They're just not comedy. We're just more fun. We're just a lot of fun. So if you want to hang out, that sounds great. If not, have a good one. Bye.

Don't let the door hit you too hard on the way out. And if you're sitting there remaining and excited for this, then I know what you should be doing. Shout as loud as you can from wherever you are unless you're in a conservative office then go into a bathroom stall and say it into a big bunch of toilet paper very muffled roll it into a single plot shut up and give me murder let's do this all right let's go on a trip jimmy what do you say all right oh all right okay we a trip, Jimmy. What do you say? All right. Oh, all right. Whatever. Okay. We've got a lot of plane tickets right now. Oh, so many plane tickets.

Jesus, we have a lot of plane tickets. So many boarding passes. I don't know where the hell I'm going anywhere. So we're going. Last week, first we were in Kansas, and then for our second episode, we were in Wyoming. And by the way, we got a message from somebody, which I thought was awesome. So great. Who worked with the murderer, the Osborne guy in Wyoming,

and said that we nailed him. He's a squirrely fuck who'd spend his whole paycheck on cheap vodka and crank. They called him Squirrel. They called him the Squirrel because he would go into people's lunchboxes and eat shit out of the lunch fridge and shit like that. And the guy said that he actually got in a fight with this man and knocked his front tooth out like two weeks before the murder. So I don't know.

That sounds hilarious. I hope that's true. The other one we got was about the lady who sold cigarettes to Floyd. To Floyd. Yeah. The poor guy who got wrongfully convicted for 15 years. It was his brother who did this horrible crime. So he's been going into her store and buying cigarettes from her for so long.

She had no idea. How you doing? Going to get a pack of Marlboros. I was convicted wrongfully for raping a 14-year-old girl and murdering her and spent much time in prison. Turned out to be my brother found out on DNA and after suicide notes. Here's some articles.

That would be a very long introduction. Just pack of Marlboros, don't do anything. Marlboros shorts would be great. That's fine. Pack of Reds, thank you. So we're going from there, going to the northeast this week. Very close to Massachusetts, actually, where we are going to be in Boston.

We are going to New Hampshire. Great. Going to Belmont, New Hampshire. I know people in New Hampshire. There you go. Belmont. You know anybody in Belmont? I don't know.

Probably not. I don't know where the fuck that is. Not a lot of people there. Probably not. It's right in the middle of New Hampshire. Very central. Not in the upper panhandle or any of people there. Probably not. It's right in the middle of New Hampshire. Very central. Not in the upper panhandle or any of that shit.

I call it the Canadian panhandle up there. None of that stuff. It's right smack in the middle of the state here. About a half hour to Concord, which is the capital. Concord, which is the capital. That's not with a southern accent. They say Concord. That's the weirdest thing. Now, everyone up there talks like the Pepperidge Farm guy.

Pepperidge Farm remembers. I'll tell you that right there. They all have a weird Kennedy accent mixed with... There's some hillbilly in those. It is. In there, too, in Vermont and New Hampshire. Our buddy Casey, who works at the club here. He's from there.

He's from New Hampshire. A lot of people are. There's a little bit of hillbilly that runs in Casey's blood. I'm sorry about that. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. He hides it underneath that suit. It's true. Well, he's descended from bog people. That's the problem.

He's very Irish. Sorry, I'm Italian. I have to say that sort of shit. Bog people. That's a 30 rock line I stole from Alec Baldwin. Yes, about his Irish girlfriend. Bog people. She's descended from bog people.

Saying that she's very emotional. That's my favorite Irish song, though. The Rattlin' Bog. That's a great song. Jesus Christ. That's fucking Alec Baldwin ringing through my head there. That's a great character.

Anyway, moving on here. It's about a half hour to conquer. I don't know how fake and put on that is, so that's just Alec Baldwin. I'm convinced of it. Oh, no, no. They make him like super... Oh, he's a great he's an amazing he's just play yeah he's really fun i love him uh this place is about two hours to boston so this is driving distance to our show

so there you go at the wilbur theater on december 13th today if you're listening to this tonight so you can still get tickets uh cold out here two hours to portland maine the other direction so that's kind of all the different directions two hours to portland maine in case you want to go there for some reason it's in belknap county or belknap county i don't know if you pronounce the k i don't know because the k do you do it twice is it because it could be belknap it could be belknap or it's b-l-k or n-a-p. B-E-L-K-N-A-P. There's no vowels in this word at all. B-L-K-N-P.

Buknip. It's Buknip. We're going there. It's fantastic. So one of those fucking counties. Zip code 03220. Area code 603. It's a big area here. 32.3 square miles, but it's kind of spread out.

So that's why it's not a lot of people in that area. It's kind of the woods, I would say. Motto here, town motto. This is not a bad one. It's obviously trying to draw in the tourism and people to move there, too. Draw people in, basically. Motto, quote, not to Canada, not to Boston. So that's not bad i'm

pretty impressive it's not bad it's a good motto i think cold as shit it's still cold as shit not bad i wish that was their motto i wish i didn't have to make that one up no boston no canada but it still feels like it to canada not to boston so it's all right not too drunk not too friendly you know what i mean so we're right in the middle. We're drunk and reasonably friendly. We're mildly buzzed and reasonably friendly. That should be there. That's right there. Originally known as Upper Gilmanton, this town was. Which is an awful name.

Belmont, much better. Much better. Much fucking better. Was chartered in 1727, this was, as a parish. This is all old shit up here. They had water power from the Tioga River, and also it developed after that as Milltown. So there's a lot of milling going on up there, which, I mean, in the 1700s, what else is there to do? You're either whaling or milling, pretty much.

I don't know what else. You're farming. Or woodzing. What do they call that? Logging. Logging, farming. I guess there's a lot of jobs. Yeah. But that's it. It's all just working on the land. much i don't know what else you're farming or woodzing or logging logging farming i guess there's a lot of jobs yeah but that's it's all just working on the land it's a lot of land jobs and then you could it's just outdoorsy tough shit block a hat maybe i don't know there's not a lot

of you had to be a real different cut from a different cloth man it's what i was thinking about this today quick aside uh sarah really wanted a pillsbury doughboy funko doll because she likes like advertising icons right so she really wanted that and it came out at noon and she got on the she was on there ready to buy it and in in the time it took her to to get it in her cart and do it it was sold out already it was like you know 20 seconds it was sold out so it's ridiculous so i go on obviously because i'm a nice fucking guy and she won't hear this show probably for a couple weeks so i get on uh i get on there and i'm like well i'm gonna find this shit for her because she really wants it so i find it on ebay of course already the cheapest

it's there is 50 bucks it's 15 originally so in an hour this guy made a 35 profit on a fucking pillsbury doughboy thing and i'm like how many times did this person do it? I'm like, that's this person's job. That's what they fucking do. Nowadays, you can literally buy a doll and sell it a minute later and make a living doing that. Whereas back then you had to have a mill. You had to like turn wheat into something.

You had to like fucking make a shoe. You had to like, you couldn't just be like, hey, I got this fucking doll a minute ago. You want it for somebody would have killed you. they'd have beat you with an iron back then for that you can't do that you're fucking crazy like i bought this log for two cents here i'm reselling it to you for 50 from here to here i'll beat you to death they'd be like no i'm gonna go to the guy with the log and just get it for two cents but now it's this so that's what i mean it's a different world yeah uh in 1833 the gilmanton village manufacturing company uh was built uh they made cotton and woolen textiles okay so they made clothes cotton clothes clothery they were they were a veritable clothery

uh it would change owners and names and products but they kept this mill there for a long time. Can I real quick tell you thank you? Please. For how much I have. Thank me. I seriously, and thank this audience. What have I done, Jimmy? For keeping this show going. I have learned so much.

Geography and just general knowledge. There's no oil in Florida. I've learned, A, that I'm an idiot. I've learned what a textile is. I've learned all kinds of weird shit. We've really got some strange facts out of this show. I should have known this shit. Kind of, but not really.

But you've given it to me. Well, I didn't know most of this. It's a treat. It's a goddamn treat. It is a treat. This is the thing. We get some people who don't give a shit about the town stuff and they just want the murder. And they're like, why do you do the town shit in the beginning?

And then we have some people who are like, I don't care about the murder. The town stuff is my favorite fucking part. I'd rather hear the real estate report than murder. So we get like that. Like, well, I love doing this town shit. That's the reason I like this show. I like to look at it. God damn it.

I like to look at a small town because honestly, when people email us or whatever from a small town and they say that we've done and they go, dude, you totally nailed that fucking town. And we've never been there. This is just based on reading some stuff. That feels cool. I like it. I like to try to get the sense of what's going on. And it helps to know the people involved, to know where they're from and shit like that. The history, obviously, has nothing to do with the murder, but it's just kind of fun.

If we just did a murder story, I still wouldn't know what a fucking textile is that's the thing and it's just it's fun to do this shit it's fun to look back at some weird historical fact and it takes 10 minutes relax fascinating down you still get an hour and a half at least of murder more likely an hour 45 calm the fuck down so you can skip to 30 minutes in otherwise because that's about how long this takes so 1921 it was the was the Belmont Hosiery Company. They made silk and woolen stockings. Oh. So very, yeah.

They didn't make silk. Worms made silk. Well, worms made silk. They fashioned them into stockings because worms don't make stockings. No, that's true. They don't do that. They tried to train them, but it's very difficult. It went out of business in 1955, and eventually it was renovated at this mill building that was all these different clothing places.

It was renovated eventually, and it's now a community center. Really? Yeah, I'm sure where underpaid workers probably died in a fire at some point. You can go shoot basketball. Yeah, old people can go read right and play backgammon yeah whatever the fuck yeah whatever the hell they're doing over there pickleball pickleball it was separated from gilmonton by an act of the legislature and was incorporated on its own uh here belmont was in 1859 as upper gilmanton And then 1869, they changed the name to Belmont

after August Belmont, who is, I know, one of your heroes. He was a German-Jewish American. He's a Jewish guy. German-Jew. In the 1800s. Pre-issues. He had no idea. Pre-problems that were going to occur.

But he was a politician, financier, a foreign diplomat. He was an ambassador at one point, a chairman of the Democratic National Committee during the 1860s, and a horse breeder and racehorse owner. Well, how about that? He was the founder and namesake of the Belmont Stakes, which is the third leg of the Triple Crown.

So if you, for that three times a year when people give a shit about horse racing and you're wondering what the fuck, one of those races is this guy's name that you're hearing about. The Belmont. Yeah, that's one. And this is the last one. And this is the town that took his name also.

Yeah, many towns did. And in New York, like in Jersey, there's a million Belmonts. There's a street named it here. There's a hundred Belmont Avenues back there. There's towns Belmont all over Jersey, all over New York. It's crazy here. So they basically, they named it after him. He had no point in it.

He had nothing to do with this town. Really? They named it after him in hopes that he would give to the town, contribute, but he never even acknowledged them at all. He just ignored them. They changed the town name to try to kiss somebody's ass, and he completely snubbed the gesture. Not interested. Not interested, fuckheads.

Keep milling. Welcome to Buffett, Arizona. Yeah. Come on. We like you. Warren, look what we did. It was like towns when they were wooing Amazon recently for their factory. Towns were, we'll change the name to Amazon.

It'll be Amazon, Georgia. We don't give a fuck. Atlanta? Fuck Atlanta. They'd pick a town and crush it to the ground and rename it for them and but i want that kind of money you know what i mean yeah people try to woo you that's like to just be nice to their town the guy that started amazon he's got cousins and shit coming to him for a while until now he's as big as he is now he's got a whole fucking town coming to him oh well he had cities all over.

And he knew where he was putting it the whole time. Never mind. We'll talk about that. So famous people in this town here, from this town, Richard Paul Pavlik, another, I know, one of your heroes, Jimmy. I know your posters on your wall as a child. You dreamed of days just imitating this guy.

He lived, actually, he's an old motherfucker. He lived from 1887 to 1975 a retired postal worker yeah uh from new hampshire who stalked uh president-elect before he took office between the election and the uh and the inauguration john f kennedy with the intent of assassinating him on december 11 1960 in palm beach florida which will be in west palm beach florida on february 21st at the west palm beach improv buy your tickets now uh this pavlik guy positioned himself to carry out this assassination by blowing himself up and kennedy with dynamite he was gonna do like a fucking he's gonna run at him yeah he was gonna do some uh you know

terrorist terrorists yes and what you think of suicide bombing shit. But he stopped because Kennedy had his wife and kids with him. And so he didn't do it because it was 1960. Right. And so the people were still like, oh, gee, there's kids in the car. I can't do that. Oh, man. He looks like a swell fellow there next to his wife.

I'm not sure about that. I was hoping you were going to say you got a glimpse of those steel blue eyes and just changed the attractive man as a matter of fact i think i'm gonna just try to have sex with him instead can't do that if we're both dead so i'm gonna unhook the suicide vest and i'm gonna go in there i'm just gonna jam a stick of this up my ass and pull it out and put it in and take it out and put it in he's the most famous person from this town just just do that a few more times too by the way for that that's what he's famous for, mainly, what you were just describing. He ended up being arrested before he was able to stage another attempt on Kennedy's life. And so thwarted him for, you know, it didn't last long, obviously.

We know what happened to Kennedy. Somebody else got him, Pavley. Yeah, somebody else got him here. Historically, the population of the town, from 1860 to 1960, it grew like 800 people maybe. In a hundred years? In a hundred years. 1860, it had basically 1,200 people, and by 1960, it had 1,900 people. So it was 700 people in that many years.

But nowadays, it is 7,315 is the population. So it's really shot up since 1970. That's when it was 2,400, and it's just jumped ever since then. It's up 26% since 1990, so pretty steady growth. Median age here in this town is a little older than normal, about 39 1⁄2, about two years older than normal. But it's not a huge elderly population either. older than normal but it's not like there it's not a huge elderly population either it's like uh it's there's a few extra old people but it's pretty standard along lines of it's in within range of normal of every all the age groups that sort of thing more females than males so uh they

are they are well i think it's just the men are dying off i think faster than the women so those old people are probably just women they They outlive us every goddamn time. Married populations about 57 percent. It's normally 50 50. So a little high there. Widowed populations actually low here. It's about half the normal rate. Divorce rates about normal.

So it's a there's not a lot. That's pretty like like aberrant out of the statistics here. I would say it's a pretty average American town. race of this town is average for these small towns uh in the country it's it's like 63 percent white is the is the norm in these small towns every one of these towns is 90 percent here it's 88 percent uh 3.7 percent black uh 0.26 percent asian which is not even a percent super low five is an average five percent so this is like even a half a percent that's not even a half of barely a quarter for christ's sake uh 5.53 percent hispanic which is a third of the norm in the country uh religion in this town 33 percent of the people here are religious so So it's not a not a highly 50 50 is normal.

New Hampshire is a blue state usually. Right. Yeah. It's their free thinkers kind of though. They'll go there. They're weird. But most of the time. Yeah.

Most of the time they end up going blue. But not last time. OK. I don't think I think they did. I think Trump ended up. I'm not sure. I don't remember that. Never mind.

So it's a painful. So thirty three. Thirty three percent religious. Twenty one point5% Catholic, obviously, because Catholics are the Baptists of the North. It's true. Obviously, that area, boy, it's going to be pretty Catholic, everybody. So even the 0.8% LDS, they can't quite penetrate it, which is a bad thing to say when we're talking about both the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church. Shouldn't use the word penetrate, probably. It's not great good with it not good with it 0.3 percent jewish which i'm very i thought i was going to get a havenagila today i was going

to get to sing it but nope 0.3 percent jewish not at all uh not going up there 0.0 percent islam also uh politically this particular town actually leans more conservative than the rest of New Hampshire. About 39% voted Democrat in the last presidential election, 55% Republican, and a little over 6% Independent. That's the other thing, too. New Hampshire's open. They're open to, like, independence and ideas like that and shit like that.

They're a different breed up there in New Hampshire or Vermont. A lot of that enough of your shit. Yeah, well, their state motto is live free or die. Yeah, that's a good point. They have die in their motto. So they're pretty fucking hardcore up there. Their state motto is like a Bruce Willis movie. I'll live in the woods with a musket.

I really will. I don't care. Like, that should be their state motto. I think that's actually the town motto. I'm not sure. So they're open to shit up there, we'll say. They're a little bit more open. Unemployment rate's about half the norm in the country here, but there's places to commute

around here, too, so that helps also. 2.6% is the unemployment rate here, which is very low. That's great. That's terrific. It's seven usually, or five? It's 5.2's terrific. Yeah, that's great. It's seven usually or five? It's 5.2 right now. So that's exactly half. Not bad at all.

Now, median household income in the United States is about $53,500. Here it is $65,500. So actually a higher income here. Job-wise, there's a lot of manufacturing jobs here. I guess they're going to reopen some fucking mills over here. A lot of retail trade. I guess that's a higher thing here. Not a lot of white collar jobs.

Like it's about a third of like the science jobs and technical jobs and like a third of the finance and insurance and that sort of thing. Because I guess Boston's right there. Yeah. Why be here? It's one of those deals. I'm not sure. So a lot of health care, too.

There it's that's a that's a high one in this whole deal. Why be here? It's one of those deals. I'm not sure. So a lot of health care, too, there. That's a high one in this whole deal. Overall cost of living, 100 being average regular par. Here, cost of living is 103. So it's right around average. Making a little more money, and they're still right on par. Yeah, that's not bad. Health care is right at normal.

Utilities are high here, actually. That's the high one. Housing is right at normal. Utilities are high here, actually. That's the high one. Housing is right around normal. It's $201,600 is the median home cost, which is not for the East Coast. No, that's great. That's not bad for two hours from Boston. And I looked at the houses. There's not even it seems like it might be lower than that now because housing costs are really dipping. If you look every especially East Coast, if you look every like just out of real estate, actually listing, you'll see see that's very current. So I think it might be one of those things. Here, some of the houses, a lot of them, about 50% of the houses are worth between $150,000 and $300,000.

So that's pretty normal, I would say, for everywhere. And if we've convinced you, dammit, that the only place for you to possibly be is Belmont, New Hampshire, we have for you the Belmont, New Hampshire. We have for you the Belmont, New Hampshire Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here of any kind is about $1,150, which is a little below the national average. So that's actually not a bad deal. Houses, I found some deals, man. I'm sorry.

If I'm looking for a house here, I'm going to clean up. We'll put it that way. Found a three-bedroom, one-bath foreclosure here. So it's going to be cheap. 1,296 square feet. Need some work on the inside, but $79,900. Jesus. That's cheap, man.

To live two hours from Boston, that's not too bad. Three-bedroom, two-bath I found with 1, with 1800 square feet it's a nice like clean looking white house 78 500 178 500 not terrible and then i found this house and this is like kind of redone recently and pretty cool three bedroom three bath 2358 square feet so you're talking good size it's an old like farmhouse with like a converted barn that's all been redone awesome and it's all red and peaked roofs and it looks cool as shit 219,000 bucks fucking great looks awesome yeah so

kind of sitting in the woods ah it's pretty awesome so there you go move to New Hampshire stays on the market I want that I'm telling you man things to do they have old home days is what they call it here. For over one. This is right off the website here.

For over 100 years, old home day has been an annual event. Now, with day long and evening festivities throughout the village. Very exciting. Each year, the old home day committee also accepts nominations for the Belmont Good Citizen Award. Jesus Christ. Who's on that fucking committee? Nominees must be a resident of the town. This is what I want to know.

What are the qualifications for Good Citizen Award? Must be a resident of the town and someone that displays good citizenship qualities through academic, civic, volunteer, and personal achievement. Students receiving this award are to be commended for their exemplary achievements in being model good citizens for the community. So, yeah, it's a pretty special day, they say. Everyone for everyone. They have the 10 mile road race there. Also, you can check out the winners on their website because we all want to know who won. What if what if a resident is just somebody that owns a home there, right?

Yeah, I guess you just have to live there. I mean, I don't know. Because if we don't have to live there, let's fucking save some of our money. We have to live there. We need an address. Let's get that $79,000 house. Let's do it. And then let's have all these people nominate us as a citizen.

We are going to crowdsource. We need 80 grand. We want to win that award. We're going to crowdsource a shitty house in Belmont, and we are going to win the fucking award. The citizenship award. It's going to be the greatest. The good citizen award in Belmont. We're going to be so happy, guys.

And then we won't show up to the ceremony? Nope, not at all. Fuck them. Nope, fuck them. Look forward to that. Jesus Christ. That's coming soon, guys. I want that.

I do, too. Crime rate in this town. Property crime. It's high crime in this town, actually. Crime rate. Property crime is about 20 percent higher than the norm that I found. And violent crime, murder, rape, robbery and assault, of course, the Mount Rushmore of crime is about a third higher.

It's high there. That's that's a lot. It's for a small town. There's only 7000 people here. That's pretty violent. I've heard that New Hampshire's got a really bad drug epidemic, though. Well, that's... Do you think that that's driving it?

That's going to... Well, that segues beautifully into our murder for this day. It really does. No, sorry. You've just segued it beautifully. That's great, because drugs are an issue in this entire murder and just these people's lifestyle. And then later on a very

funny thing that we'll talk about that has something to do with drugs it's pretty fucking funny actually not that a drug epidemic is funny but it has to do with prison so who cares okay it's one of those things so uh not that who cares if they fuck them anyway stop back that's why make our statements and we move that's right we stick and move that's what i do i was not planning on that at all good that was good at the end it was going to be okay so uh let's talk about this murder that happened here because this this was also by the way sent to us by a listener uh last week oh great when i was looking for a case in new hampshire i was literally looking for one and a message popped up, actually eight messages popped up saying, here's this murder in New Hampshire.

That's like my nephews, this and that. So they had a personal involvement, which you might say, did you contact the person? No, because we don't do that. If I OK, let's say I contacted this person and they told us whatever backstory then i would feel obligated to contact somebody that disagrees with that person to get balance on it and then at that point i'm a fucking journalist which i'm not now you're chasing down leads at that point i'm sarah koenig and i'm not sarah i'm not i'm just she's great but i'm not her i'm a fucking comedian and jimmy's a comedian and i'm not chasing down stories are what we do is we like just like the people say hey you you you nailed the town or

the guy who said uh oh holy shit you nailed the murderer i totally know that guy and he's that exact guy that you described like that's what we try to do we try to get it from the that that's the charm of this otherwise we don't know we're not going to do yeah you're like a police sketch artist and somebody's just whispering the shit to you yeah i'm reading court documents and getting all the facts i can but if we start talking to people then like i said it's you're building a it's a different thing completely and that's not what we do and then you'd end up concentrating on one story you know it's a different thing we gotta bounce from week to week so let's go back to september 2006 here so not too far in the time machine.

It's a short trip. It was quick. It's a quick one. I'm not even winded. Usually I feel kind of lightheaded after our trips, but I feel pretty good right now. It's not bad. Nothing like this trip to Boston I'll be on at 6 o'clock this fucking morning.

What I do like about going to the East Coast from here is that going there is quicker because of the Earth's rotation. What I hate is when we have to fucking exhausted it's the worst done and it adds another fucking hour hour and a half to the flight yeah four shows and four nights and uh this is going to be and flying home from dc and this is going to be brutal yeah this is this is insane this is gonna hurt if you see us just say you know, fucking you survive, guys. Keep plugging along because we're going to be tired. Take it easy. We're literally going to be on.

Boston will be all rested. You might not because you're flying all night. I'm flying all damn night. I'm going to try and get a nap during the day and then get to the show. And hopefully I'm rested enough. I'm going in a day early. So I'm going to sleep like a bastard for the entire time I'm in Boston until the show. So then I've got to save that because then all weekend I have none.

2006, talk about some people here. We talk about a brother and sister combination. Jennifer and Jeremy Huard. His real name, I guess, is Jeremiah, but they call him Jeremy. Jeremy at this point is 29 years, and Jennifer's 26 years old. So they're brother and sister. They hang out together, and we'll find out how they hang out and all that sort of thing here. They hang out basically because of a guy here named Kirkman Cassavaugh.

Kirkman? Kirkman. Oh, boy. With a K, and Cassavaugh with a C. Man, at the end of Kirk. Kirk man. Oh, boy. the end of Kirk. Kirk Man. Oh, boy. A man named Kirk.

What the fuck? Kirkman Cassavaugh, which it should be not Cassavaugh. It should be Cavanaugh, I feel like, or something of that. But Cassavaugh III. Oh, Jesus. If you know anything about crime and sports, you know that juniors are never good. No. And whenever it's the third, we're like, oh, Jesus Christ.

Juniors, junior. Yeah, juniors, junior. Jesus no and uh whenever it's the third we're like oh jesus christ juniors junior yeah juniors juniors it's a not a good thing but we don't know about this story yet but generally we're always because i mean floyd bledsoe right last week was a junior and he had all the chips stacked against him he's a junior his brother's testifying against him he had it all against him fucking didn't do shit nice guy so uh just wants to buy a cigarette to be left alone kirkman casavod the third sounds like somebody that plays fucking water polo or something yeah he sounds very uh he's not let me tell you a little bit about his background he's not folks are bullshitting his folks are bullshitting he uh well his his grandfather uh seemed like a i don't know anything about his personal life but i found his obituary yeah when he died he died uh in 2007

a little bit uh after this but uh his he worked at the coca-cola plant in in near there's a coca-cola plant apparently somewhere in this area he worked there there for 48 years, it said in his thing. 48 fucking years in the same place. That which sounds unbelievably- That's awful. 48 years, man. I work with a dude who has been at the company for 51 years. Good God.

Why? What are you doing? Go home now. Get the fuck out. Don't you want to do other things with yourself? Well, I guess not. He's happy with what he's doing. He's doing it.

48 years at the Coca-Cola plant here. So his dad, his grandfather has his father. Her was Kirkman Cassavaugh Jr., obviously. His dad, okay, this is interesting. Because in all these articles up here, it mentions his dad was a police officer that then moved to Florida. And then that's it. They never mention anything else. But if you just do search some newspaper articles, like our archives, like normal people do, right?

Everyone's sitting around searching newspaper archives for information on people that have nothing to do with shit, right? that have nothing to do with shit, right? Well, if you do that, and if you search Florida newspapers in the 80s, you find out that his father was a dirty cop who ended up having to resign from the force over basically a sex ring. Well, let's just read from this article I found. What the fuck?

We're talking right away. He comes from good stock, Kirkman Carr. I mean, his grandpa's a hard-working son of a bitch mind you he might have been an alcoholic that beat the shit out of everyone when he got home every night we have no idea he might have molested the grand kids we don't know the person that's why i said you know from the outside you go he had a big family grandkids worked at the same place 48 years sounds like a nice old guy but who knows we don't know why didn't he 48 that's not why not stick it out for two and be a celebratory guy nope no why not just get to 50 and dip he couldn't make it jimmy that's why he's a he's a slacker that's why fucking slacker so uh apparently uh this one guy

here another cop a cop named walker was fired after a year-long internal investigation and kirkman cavanaugh uh cassavaugh who was walker's supervisor and our guy's father yeah the guy in our story's father had to resign also uh they basically are ended up taking disciplinary action against these people they uh palm beach internal affairs sergeant said quote there were several by the way we'll be in west palm beach florida i almost did it. February 21st. This is actually this is in Palm Bay.

I'm sorry. Palm Bay. He says, quote, there were several allegations that could have resulted in criminal charges. But in consultation with the state's attorney's office, we determined there was not enough evidence to convict anyone. evidence to convict anyone. Basically, they showed that this Walker, Officer Walker, spent an inordinate amount of duty time in the homes of girlfriends and female acquaintances. He also spent a lot of time at convenience stores socializing with female clerks. I guess both Walker and Kasavaugh were present at a house where drug transactions were taking

place and should have been aware of the transactions. They were like hanging out while people were buying drugs in a drug dealer's house with their eyes closed and their dick in a woman's mouth this is in like 87 so in 87 they used to pay off local police forces all the time they would the cops would transport cocaine for guys back then as for a fee and like it was just easier uh they said that uh uh during the investigation also confirmed confirmed allegations that walker developed relationships with young and vulnerable female victims of domestic violence calls yes he would he would try to swoop in on uh and there's a lot of cops actually that i've heard that got busted that get busted for this

they get somebody and then they end up coming back later on hey how you doing make sure you're okay and they kind of push themselves on them and uh yeah they notice this and see if it's clean that kind of thing yeah you know like hold on let me check my dipstick quick you know out in the car uh not great so uh apparently uh smith and cassavaugh's action showed a repeated pattern uh but uh they said cassavaugh recruited walker and they were kind of you know he was like his underling and his but uh they said cassavaugh recruited walker and they were kind of you know he was like his underling and his whatever uh they said quote it has made us examine our policies and make our background checks more in depth than they were before so this is his father we'll talk about now uh there was a lot more to that story too there was several it was an

unfolding whatever that's just the overview and if it was if this was uh you know beach town corrupt police yeah uh show that then that's all we would talk about this whole time but it's small town murder yeah so let's get to something called gleaned all he needed from that archive that's all he needed right there yeah this was he basically had a training day situation going on here so cassava uh cassava is dating uh uh the uh he's dating uh jeremiah's sister jeremiah's sister jeremy's sister now uh he had also a uh violent history with his ex-girlfriend uh here got the third now we're talking about kirkman cassava III. He violated a restraining order obtained by a woman named Nicole Cadaldo, formerly of Belmont. She's the mother of his son.

At this point, he's got a seven-year-old son, this Cassavaugh. So, yeah. How old a guy is he? 29. 29 years old. 29, so he's the same age as Jeremy. With a violent temper. He's friends with Jeremy, and then he goes out with Jeremy's sister Jennifer. That's how it works.

That's the relationship when she's not around they're still hanging out. Of course that kind of deal. So Cataldo moved down to Maryland. I assume to get away from this nutcase who's violating restraining orders. I assume just just a fucking hunch. Maryland Silver Spring like Silver Spring

Maryland where we will be this Sunday December the 16th, at the Fillmore. Not a lot of tickets. I think that one's almost sold out. Almost. Just about sold out. You better hurry up.

So if you want to get on that one, get them now. Shut up and give me murder.com. All right, no more plugs. I swear to Christ. By the way, this episode, you're going to notice

this episode has no ads in it. This is an ad-free episode. We're presenting this episode ad-free so we can plug our fucking show instead. This show's brought to you by episode has no ads in it. This is an ad free. We're presenting this episode ad free so we can plug our fucking show. And this show is brought to you by shut up and give me a shot up and give me murder.com. Yeah. We're going to, Hey, just going to take a quick break to tell you about our fucking live shows and

the fact that we have six on the books and four left to this tour this week and you better get to them. You sons of bitches. So anyway, and now back to the show. Give me, come on. and now back to the show give me come on and now back to the show there you go excellent anyway oh christ so uh she moved down there uh family court records basically from this area note a history of quote violent and unpleasant interactions between cataldo and cassava who apparently had difficulty they said in the in the reports that he quote

apparently had apparent difficulty in managing his temper that's what a judge wrote in her report of the domestic violence overview of the situation he's a fucking asshole he's a dick with a temper and his dad's a fucking kind of a dirtyish cop i don't know if we want to call him dirty he wasn't who knows his dad's got had to resign from the police force for shady sexual actions and other fucking things like that treats women like shit so it's not a great yeah there's a there's a pattern here with this whole thing oh dad treated women like shit and look at look what happened yeah oh isn't that weird it's so strange dad moved to florida and fucking took advantage of of women in hard positions and then his son's a dick too weird super fucking strange right man isn't that weird so strange how kids will see

things and then do it it's almost systemic and cyclical fucking isn't it strange wow i bet i bet now hear me out yeah i bet that if his dad beat his mother in front of him i bet he'd hit women too i think that's a bit crazy is it a stretch jimmy oh no you're really rich shit or he'd hate people that do that one of the two because that's what happens that's what that's that's the way i went it's kind of the only options really in society no one's kind of lukewarm to domestic violence. No one's like, I could take it or leave it. No one says that at all about domestic violence. That's true.

You're either like, yeah, fucking hit her if she has a problem. Or you're like a normal person. Like, what are you, a crazy asshole? Fucking hitting people? I will be honest. One of those two. When my ex has made me mad, in my head, I saw my, my stepfather hit my mom and I was like, this is why he did it.

That's, that's a natural reaction, but there's a difference. I feel what he probably felt feeling, but I didn't do it and doing it. You've, I'm sure I wanted to murder people in traffic and just in traffic, strangers that had no effect on your life other than a two second delay jobs.

I've had, forget it. It's understandable to have thoughts, but normal people control them and don't act like monsters and start fucking being violent with people which is the problem here apparently it got worse because the spring before this cassavaugh was acquitted this was a god they went to court and everything went to trial was acquitted of intentionally running over cataldo's toes with his car he ran over his her feet while she was i guess she he buzzed her and uh she she was wearing like a shower she was wearing like a size 10 and it was a little much for him and uh he said hey we better move those

fucking gunboats i'm coming for you and then this poor woman got her foot run over he just didn't know how wide his mickey thompson's were right got some bigger tires man what a fucking ass who does that he could hit her what if she leaned yeah that's not good what if they're so big he takes the fucking shin we yeah yeah knocks her down and runs her over that's another problem it happens so this is a speed off lunatics i wonder why she moved to maryland gee uh around the same time shirley cassavaugh uh who is his grandmother uh reported a break-in in his trailer that he had obviously on the property because every fucking story has a family trailer compound i don't understand this and uh she told police that a shotgun had been taken from the trailer that was there so now there's a missing

shotgun there's always a shotgun in the trailer always a shotgun in a trailer it's fucking nuts man i know that's that's just what's there here we go i promise next week it does not next week our story takes place in like a nice like upper upper middle class home that's a promise i i know the story already so this one a foundation and all that shit it's's got it. Yeah. You can't tow it anywhere. It's built into the ground. So this that ended up happening there. So there's a shotgun missing now. Also, Jeremy Huard is not exactly an angel either. Jeremy Huard hangs out with Kirkman Cassavoy and they all they do drugs.

They're drug course drug doing pals. Court records also show that Jeremy had a violent record with his ex-girlfriend. He was convicted of three misdemeanor charges stemming from a 1998 violent incident where he was accused of beating, choking, and threatening the life of his then girlfriend. I mean, but was it during sex? I mean, that's the thing. They didn't say that. Either way, she didn't come got it so it's not okay it's not okay at that point she wasn't into it that was the problem

she either way she ain't into it now whether it was during sex or not so uh yeah beating choking and threatening the life of his girlfriend is not terrific and he's actually convicted of this somehow those are misdemeanors i don't know choking your girlfriend's a misdemeanor that seems worse choking's a fucking you could kill somebody with that yeah that's kind of a lot i think that's that's assault and then while you're threatening to kill them if you're choking them going i'm gonna fucking kill you that's that's that looks you know attempted murdery to me i don't know misdemeanor assault that's misdemeanor that's misdemeanor assault? Is that what that is? It's misdemeanor. Yeah, that's crazy. Assault and battery?

Yeah, it's just three misdemeanor charges is all I can get out of that. I mean, I'm sure if he pled, they'd lower him and that sort of shit. Like, we had in a crime in sports a horrible sexual assault, and it was like attempted sexual assault he pled to. It's like, no, he did more than fucking attempt it. But, you know, for the years, they take the plea. At first, you called this gross, and now it's just attempted that was gross so uh during the summer here of 2006 leading up to where we are now so we have kirkman and we have jeremy you know they're both kind of i don't know under the uh under the societal radar we'll say i don't neither of these guys are running for like a county commissioner anytime soon

or anything of that nature, I feel like. It's a pretty... Shitbirds of a feather. They're fringy, I would say. They like to hang out in Kirkman's trailer and do drugs. It's probably his parents' trailer they own. It's not his. No, no, it is.

And he's turning it into a crack den or whatever it is the fuck they're doing. Pretty much what he's doing here. So during the summer of 2006 uh kirkman and jennifer heward are involved in a romance jimmy they're they're hooked up together uh kirkman and jeremy hang out a lot they're friends and uh jennifer kind of joins the group and and starts hanging out and and hook it is hooked up with kirkman cassavaugh so the three of them would hang out and use drugs together, basically, in the trailer. Kirkman's house was the hangout for doing drugs. You go to his trailer, you hang out, and you do a bunch of shit.

So that's what they did. And everybody knows people who like to hang out. You need a place. They have their center of operations here. My sister did this in high school, and then she married the dude. That's what happens. It happens a lot, honestly. I think there's probably a lot of those stories floating around America.

I guarantee it. I mean, it's the safe place. It's the escape. How our population keeps going. Otherwise, we'd shrivel up and die. So the trailer he lived on was on land on land owned by his grandparents well it's in like a 90 acre uh plot of land that they have this is what i mean it's big plots of land that's why the you know it's 32 square mile town and it's kind of spread out a little bit here pays well

and coca-cola pays well yeah so uh and who knows what you know new hampshire fucking woodland cost 48 50 you know 60 years ago when they moved up there probably nothing he's been there 48 years yeah he's probably buying his neighbors die he buys their land and shit like that so uh but kirkman and jennifer had a real stormy relationship as a lot of people do with their like drug hangout people too that's those drug relationships get stormy they really they stay together because they're kind of they're both into it because you have to explain the shit you're into to somebody it's like all right here's what i like to do i like to get a bunch of fucking crank right okay i know i know stay with me whole

bunch of crank right i like to go home and fucking do it and then just like pace around my house and argue and get generally belligerent for a while and then like six hours later like to go out and get fucking more even though it's super late and it's sketchy and we have to like so are you in relationship it's the worst speed dating i've ever heard in my life that's really good next have a good one fuck are you talking about that dating show that would be great i'm into that that would be amazing ben bailey hosting that from cash cab and you're gonna have to go through a few people before someone goes me too holy shit that's exactly what i want to do you're gonna do a lot of crank today trying to find that person that's what happens and they're they're entwined socially because her brother

hangs out with him and they're all it's a they're all enmeshed here and they're all enmeshed with drugs and everything else and they argue a lot uh during that summer uh there's a woman here named crystal sanborn and uh her she'll come up later on she makes a telephone call to jennifer uh during which she can hear a man yelling at jennifer uh from what she describes as filled with rage this voice was she heard the man call her a whore and say that he was going to fucking kill her. I'm going to fucking kill you. You whore is what he said.

So that's that's a lot. That's pretty aggressive. I would say. Haki. It's Haki. Yeah. I've never said that to a woman. I'll be honest with you.

I've never said I'm going to fucking kill you whore. I've never. It's never fucking happened. I think I've called a woman a whore when I was young because i didn't know how to insult to her face yeah oh wow yeah and uh she was a virgin mind you because we were like 15 yeah but i didn't know what i'm fucking saying well you're 15 i think yeah i think i've i think i'm probably said that to more people too but yeah i think i've said it to uh a bolt when i when I couldn't get it loose and I busted my fucking knuckle. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You cock-sucking whore. Well, the I'm going to kill you part, I feel, is a little more insulting, honestly. That's the aggressive part. The whore, I mean, that's bad, but it's a cherry on top of the aggression sundae, I would call it, of the I'm going to fucking kill you. It really insinuates a bad thing's about to happen. Yeah, so this is going on in the background and this crystal sanborn's like um uh problem i hear jennifer uh excuse me whore is there are you going to be are you that's i assume that's are you going by that at home now what's going on here either

that or you're in trouble and what the fuck is happening because i if you're not okay with that then we have an issue here if that doesn't turn you on then we have a fucking problem uh and uh all the gonna kill you part two let's talk about that that seems like whatever so jennifer explains to crystal that it was just kirkman who was yelling and they they fought all the time and that's normal so don't worry about it yeah that's my pet name she's like she goes we fight all the time he's always just talking shit yelling i'm gonna fucking kill you whore which is unacceptable oh don't mind him uh we don't give advice a lot but ladies if you're if your significant other is yelling i'm going to fucking kill you whore that's not a good relationship and that's not okay to happen all the

time and please get some help if at all possible. Ask your mom if that's okay. Yeah. Yeah, unless your dad did that to her, then we had a whole other fucking problem. So in September, they ended up, like, over the summer, Jennifer and Kirkman were living together in this trailer. Like, she moved most of her stuff in there, and she kind of, you know, basically just de facto lived there. And Jeremy would just hang out over there, and then he'd go back to where he lived,

which I think was with his parents, obviously. So September here, 2006, they have won too many fights and Jennifer gets pissed off and takes all of her shit and moves out of the trailer and moves into her father's house. Now, at that point, though, she moved all her shit out, but her brother still hangs out with Kirkman because they hang out and do drugs. And so does she. She remains in contact with all of them because that's their kind of circle. You don't want to do drugs with. It's their kind of circle. And it's fucking sad.

I feel bad. I don't know what happened to Jennifer to make her feel like this was okay to be treated like this and to be there. And I don't know if it was a drug addiction or what the what the issue was there's obviously something there uh you know if you took a strong person and put them in the situation they'd be like fuck you eat dicks i'm gonna go over here what are you doing i don't know i don't know if it's even just strong because at that somebody threatened to kill you called you a whore and then you had more fights and you moved out but you're gonna go do drugs but you're gonna hang out and do drugs because it's you know with drugs jimmy that's the problem is she getting them for free there well i

mean that's the thing we don't know we don't know what the financial situation of this is that's splitting up the check and that's their crew well who knows i mean that's they figure they plot and get drugs together so it's just one of those things here now september 19th 2006 uh the night this night uh kirkman and jeremy and several of their pals are hanging out in the trailer all fucking doing a bunch of drugs right uh and we're assuming by the way uh they always say drugs in this and from what everything i could find it's like it's a a meth and from everything I could find, it's a meth crank type thing here they're doing. It's that sort of deal.

It's not classy drugs. They're not sitting around with piles of cocaine, wearing tuxedos with loosened ties, chopping it up with fucking engraved razor blades here at $100 bills. And swilling some really nice scotch. This is some dirty speed freak shit going on here this is yeah this is marked up tinfoil is what we're talking about here burned up tinfoil pieces it's a lot of cloudy and yellow rocks it's gross so uh they're they're all there's a bunch of people hanging out having a little get together i guess uh doing this here now uh a bunch of people left uh everybody leaves except

for jeremy from the trailer jeremy ends up hanging out with kirkman further they're kind of the they're they're they're each other's bottom bitch here they hang out together and they're down for each other when everybody else leaves like okay now how do we get more drugs yeah did you steal from that guy because i stole from that guy type of thing i don't know if jeremy does that or not but uh whatever either way it's a drug thing so after everybody leaves jennifer ends up calling uh kirkman uh and asked to be picked up from a house some friend's house in franklin okay so she calls her ex-boyfriend who threatens to kill her to get a ride away from i guess a worse situation. How bad is the situation in Franklin where you're calling this guy to get you out of it? Like, it's got to be shitty there.

So Jeremy went with Kirkman. Her brother goes with Kirkman to pick her up, which seems fine, right? At least the brother's there. That's good. And they won't get too out of hand, at least. So apparently during the car ride back to the trailer, and by the way, they went back to the trailer instead of taking her back to the father's house. She didn't want to go back to the father's house.

Probably made me to get high. I'm not sure. That's all I can assume. So they get back there. And on the way back there, Kirkman and Jennifer got in an argument, of course, because who you blowing in there? It's what I mean. I'm sure it was him being who knows what the fuck they were arguing about it seems like these two were oil and water they got together and arguments fucking happened

period well and it's also an insecurity thing for dudes to know that the girl that they're that they were sleeping with is with somebody else what if he's better yeah and well we don't even know if she's with somebody else or she's with a girlfriend or with her grandma we have no idea she's in franklin either way they're arguing and he's been doing drugs all night right so he probably isn't in the best state of mind either and we don't know what state of mind she's in she could be in a just as bad a state of mind or she could be fucking jones and or she could be fine and he could be going nuts because he has been doing drugs for hours so this is a this is a powder keg this whole situation i'm just fascinated by jealousy, too. Well, jealousy is very fascinating.

That's a really shitty emotion that people feel. I am so thankful that I don't feel that emotion ever. I'm just unwired for it. I used to feel it, but I don't know. It's just burned out in me. I feel like I had that until I was in my 20s, and it's just like, I don't know, whatever. Go do you, bro. Be better than me. You do whatever you want. i don't know whatever go do you bro be better do

whatever you want just fucking tell me about it and that way i'll figure out what i'm doing in response to it i don't know is it an inferiority complex is that what it is no i i'm just i'm just you know the jealousy is yeah i thought you meant what i was saying i'm like i'm just tired that's all it is for me i just don't have the energy i'm just done with it i'm just tired man i don't know i just don't understand otherwise what jealousy is. I'm just done with it. I'm just tired, man. I don't know. I just don't understand what jealousy is. It's got to be an inferiority thing, right? It's an inferiority complex. That he fucks her better than him?

It's not even that. It's anything. People feel like people are their property. No, I mean, yeah. And so it's like if somebody broke into your house and stole something from you, that's the way they're looking at it. I suppose. It's a possession thing.

That's the only thing I can think of.'s a possession thing and you can't and i'm sure it's jealousy the root is different for different people probably some people it might be an inferiority or some people it might be a possessiveness and some people it might be it's all just insecurity and just feeling weak though loneliness yeah but it's it's everybody people are angry at fucking people they don't even they never met because they have a nicer house than them or they people get angry for people for a million different reasons silly it's crazy so jealousy is a big motivator for people though i mean it is people people vote based on jealousy people act they take you know different jobs based on jealousy they they literally change things in their life based on their weird. Affect everything.

They'll shake their whole life up based on being jealous of something. Whatever their weird reptile brain is making them think. That portion of their brain is still, that's weird. Skip that shit, people. Stop that. It sucks. People can't help it. That's a juice.

How many things do we talk about where it's a jealousy murder? It happens so often. It drives them that crazy that they fucking kill someone over it. So it's jealousy murder it happens so often it drives them that crazy that they fucking kill someone over it so it's it's insane here so they're they're arguing in the car jennifer and kirkman the argument continues after they arrive at the trailer obviously uh they keep arguing to the point where it wakes up a neighbor here who's apparently living on the property also a guy named mark thompson he lives in an rv nearby the court documents listed as a recreational vehicle let's be realistic his house seriously has fucking wheels and it's attached to them at

this very moment and it's probably got a motor an rv yeah he lives in a fucking it probably wasn't like a hundred twenty thousand dollar winnebago that like opens up one of those bad boys. I assume this is like a, you know. It may require a motor. It might require a vehicle with a motor. Yeah, it's probably an auctioned U-Haul truck that he somehow converted into a quote RV in the back there. You know, I put a cot down, you know, bolted to the wall and shit. That thing don't go nowhere.

I just sleep back there. You could drive and I'll sleep in the back. I don give a shit it's an rv now boy i don't fucking know i just realized that it's the reason i don't have jealousy is because i don't assume i deserve anything yeah that's possible my low self-esteem and self-worth is why I don't give a shit about what everybody else has. Yeah. I just, man, that's a good point. That is depressing. Yeah.

Well, it ends up breeding a good quality and not being jealous. I just don't have the energy to give a shit. I think that's mine. I don't know what it is. I don't know if that's inferiority or what, and that's the way I've disguised it in my own brain to make me feel better about myself. And I'm like, I just don't care. It's probably just that I just assume that people, what the fuck do they want with me? Of course, maybe that's what it is.

I don't know. I'm passed over for everything else. Why not this too? Whatever. Yeah. Who knows? Except for the Discover pod. Best truth.

Right. They seem to like me. They liked us. They didn't pass us over. But everybody else does. They thoroughly enjoyed us. They liked us. So, yeah. So this Markpson and he's living in the rv he looks out of his window because he hears an argument and so obviously if you hear it right outside you're

gonna look out and see what's going on he looks out of his window to see kirkman punching jeremy oh boy uh punching him and then throwing him to the ground okay Okay, so Thompson yells out the window of the RV. I don't know if he had to roll it down. I made a manual roll-down gesture there. I don't know if he, whatever, but he yelled out the window to Kirkman, quote, don't kill him, Kirk. I don't know. I guess he just doesn't want to death outside the RV while he's trying to sleep,

which is reasonable. I'm going to be honest with you. I wouldn't want that either if I had a choice. He punched him and threw him to the ground. Why do you think he's so strong that one punch kills people? I have no idea. Well, I think if he saw him punching him repeatedly and then he threw him to the ground,

I think he's thinking he's in control of the situation. Got it. Why don't you stop fighting him now? Because it's not a fight anymore. It's over. Because he's on the ground. It's not worth it, Kirk. It's not worth it, Kirk.

Damn it. You're going to go to the pen for that so now come on over here in the u-haul let's smoke some crack now uh thompson gets dressed here because he figures that you might have to go out there and whatever deal with the situation so he gets dressed and he looks out of his window again and at this moment in time so in the time it took him to get first, he's beating Jeremy. Now he gets dressed and he looks back out the window and doesn't see Jeremy now. But he does see Kirk dragging Jennifer out of the door of the trailer by her feet. Which you very rarely drag people by the feet voluntarily. And it's typically or historically, generally, after something bad. That's what I'm saying.

Usually not conscious. Generally, people don't go, just drag me by my feet. That's not normally how it works. And if someone does need to be dragged, you do it by the arms so their head's up. So it's not bouncing off the fucking shit that you're dragging them on. That's the usual way to do it. But apparently, he's dragging her out by the feet. So Thompson's like, holy shit.

He just closes the fucking blinds and is like, I didn't see nothing. He just sits there and tries to figure out what the hell he's going to do now. Literally, he just, maybe I'll just pretend I'm sleeping and this will all. Hope he didn't hear me say don't kill him. I'm dreaming, right? This is a dream. I'm going back to sleep. But shortly after he sees this, he had to to this had to be the worst imagine you're

this guy you're thompson you fucking wake up to an argument look out you see this guy punching some guy you know he's like dude don't what are you doing stop being an asshole you know he's all jacked up on whatever drugs he's doing yeah you go you put your clothes on you're fucking half asleep jesus you look out now someone's dragging by the feet and you're like that doesn't look good that looks corpsey i am going to fucking close my blinds and pretend nothing's happening exactly then you're sitting there for a few minutes and then there's a knock on the door oh boy how what what does your stomach do at that point how many fucking flips and cartwheels and god i hope this is the cops and somebody called

them the cops this is the person he was dragging and they came to and they're fucking asking for help or a place to go or something. I mean, you are whatever it is. You're just hoping. And if it is the guy you saw beating and dragging, you're thinking, well, does he want to do that to me now? Right. Because I saw him beating that person or worse. Does he want to help? Yeah.

Does he want to talk? Does he think I'm his buddy now? Like, what's happening? So this guy, they know that he's there because he just yelled out, don't kill him out the window. So he can't just sit in the fucking U-Haul trailer or whatever the fuck it is. So he opens the door and Kirkman tells this Thompson, quote, I killed them. So Thompson's like, holy shit, that seems what the fuck? I was sleeping five minutes ago. So Kirk at this point asks this

Thompson for help. This is what I mean. This is worse than if he wanted to kill me. At least then I can try to fight him off. This I gotta what the fuck, man? This is a minefield to navigate. Good morning, Mr. Thompson. You got a shovel? You got a shovel is what he said. He asked this Thompson to

for help in dragging the bodies to the back of the trailer so he could burn them. He's like, look, obviously I've got two. Yeah, clearly he hasn't heard the show. I don't know what he's thinking. But he says, look, I got two bodies and, you know, dragging's tough. So maybe you can grab an end. I'll grab an end. And, you know, maybe you can help me build a fire.

You got a match? Burn these fuckers up. Thompson is obviously a little taken aback by this whole situation and isn't used to disposing of human corpses. So he's a little, you know, leery, I would say, of the offer. So Thompson responds, well, why are you doing it now? If you burn him at night, that's going to attract lots of attention. This is good middle of the night quick thinking because this is at like four in the morning he said it's fucking dark out you burn you just wait because if you burn them now yeah it's gonna be fire for everyone's

gonna see it from a while miles around right so uh this uh uh you know that's the guy said uh kirkman's like well yeah that makes sense that's cool uh he said tell you what we'll do we don't want to attract attention and i really want to help you here. Thompson said, obviously, I'm very concerned with your situation. So here's what I'll do. He goes, instead of burning them and attracting all this attention, I'll warm up the car. And then you can get that because it's cold out. I'll warm up the car a little bit because I have a piece of shit.

And we'll drag them into the car. And then we'll take them somewhere else and just dump them. That you don't attract all his attention terry yeah you hold on just one second here let me fire it up and i'll warm it up and then he just drives away brilliant he fucking drove away i'm just gonna warm up the car and it's fine and he's just like i'm gonna go spin it around town a little bit how is it is it down to one you know rpms he's like you know it's one more minute and he just fucking puts it in drive and peels out, and the guy's like, are you just, you taking it for a, back in a minute? You're getting on that around the block, right?

Around the block? Okay. Hand gestures, like, with his finger, and then waving. Okay. He just never comes back. Shit. How long did, how long did he wait for him to come back? He's on drugs, so he's probably, how fast is time going?

He'll be back going he'll be back he's pacing walking around in circles so this thompson the smartest man in this entire story he decides uh fuck this shit uh i am driving away i have no interest in this uh later on a couple hours later i don't know if he went and continued to sleep or what but later on he ends up going to the police and reporting this whole thing so this guy guy not only asked that he didn't kill the man, fucking tried to avoid the whole thing, and then drove away from a potential body disposal situation. Now he's reporting it to the cops, too. He's pretty much doing everything a normal person would do.

Hey, don't kill him. Oh, shit, that girl looks dead. Oh, fuck, I don't want to be involved in that i'll just warm the car up and then call he's perfect in this this thompson to me he's the police station warming the shit out of this sitting in the heat so to me this guy is is uh you can't unimpeachable at this point this man here he's done everything right so the police rewarded with a big ass u-haul something they're gonna give him the best impounded RV they can find. We took this one from an elderly drug dealer.

It's just stocked. It's huge. No miles on it. Him and his wife, Edna, were going across the country on it because that's always been their dream. But unfortunately, they were unloading kilos of heroin along the way. Only made it one trip. One trip. You pop open a panel.

You never know what you're going to find. Be careful. Edna's hip gave out. It happens it happens it happens but they made a killing they did and they saw the grand canyon finally which is their lifelong dream look at the back of the rv has a sticker to prove it's pretty good see that's not bad yosemite wow they got around is that mount rushmore excellent look at them wow is that a koa campground sticker? The world's largest ball of twine. Look at that. Well, I'll be damned. These people, I'm fucking jealous. They really seen it all.

Dead or not, they knew how to live. Meteor crater. They found it. They found it. Look at that. It's impressive. So, obviously, the police are curious to talk to old Kirkman Cassavaugh about this. this see they've been told quite the wild tale yeah by this mark and a guy pulls in in a shitty rv telling the story you're probably

like let's calm down yeah number one uh let's talk about this and uh so they end up doing an interview here uh with uh with kirk how fucking surprised was he when they pulled up he's like cool he went and got help hey here he comes with the headlights and he's finally fuck he's fun oh shit oh that's our red did he bring friends oh no no uh-oh yikes okay wow i don't think they're gonna help not good uh they said that at first he in the initial they told him hey uh jeremy and jennifer are missing yeah you know anything about that because people said you, they told him, hey, Jeremy and Jennifer are missing. You know anything about that? Because people said, you know, they saw him with you, so maybe you know where they went.

You know, pull that old trick with people to try to get them to lie. And they said he did not appear either surprised or concerned to learn that they were missing. He was like, they're missing? Well, yeah, that happens. People go places. What do you want? He characterized Jennifer to the police at this point. This is fucking amazing he goes well

that jennifer she's a miserable bitch first of all that's what he said to the cops quote miserable bitch not she's miserable and she's a bitch separately a miserable bitch is what he calls her he said she's a miserable bitch i gotta jot that one down this is this fucking guy miserable bitch that's what he calls her to the police who are asking saying you're the last person they were seen with anything about that he goes that miserable bitch okay do you want to i don't know because it's ridiculous it's the craziest thing to say to a cop when they ask if you've seen someone that's missing because they've been seen with you. And you go, that fucking bitch, that's not what you say.

He's clearly never seen any police investigation. Because if you're the last person to see them, you never insult them. No. You'd be like, great girl. The best person. We've had our problems, but you know what? I love her. We like each other so much we still remain friends. we said the romance is it just ruins our friendship we're liking more of

an elaine jerry situation now than we really are of like a sam and diane because i'll tell you it was a real kim and emma it was a real kim and emma that's the problem uh unfortunately it's turned into an emma lyric about kim instead of just the actual relationship. And it's not good. Just going to tell you that it's not good. So miserable bitch, not the thing you want to tell the cops, I would say. Probably the dumbest thing you could say, honestly. And he states to the police that she and Jeremy left his house on foot, walked off into the wilderness of off a 90 acre property, which I assume is surrounded by other large properties

where it's probably not a compact urban center is what I'm getting at. There's probably... Tons of trees. There's probably not a Marriott fucking half a mile down the road they can trek to, I'm getting at here. He said this. They left on foot at about 4 a.m. after he and Jennifer had been in an argument. He said, we got in an argument on the way fucking home.

I picked that miserable fucking bitch up got a goddamn argument i said well well fuck off you and your goddamn brother and they walked out of here on foot and i ain't seen that bitch since that's that's pretty much paraphrasing exactly what he said to the cops uh ridiculous so the police uh began to press him a little a little bit little bit about whether he killed them. He goes, well, maybe they didn't leave. Maybe you killed them. And he, at that point, they say his demeanor completely changed. He started breathing quick and heavy, slumped down in his chair. They said all the general signs of when someone killed someone and you confront them with it.

Although he continued to deny the uh any involvement in the killings whatsoever and then he uh just abruptly asked that the interview be ended and he's like i'm not under arrest well i'm fucking out of here basically i'm leaving yeah we're not talking anymore this is over with and then what and then they went all right because at that point they just have missing people they don't have any evidence of they don't they don't they haven't found jeremy or or or they have jennifer they don't have any evidence. Okay. They haven't found Jeremy or Jennifer. They don't know anything. Can you get a warrant based on-

Suspicion? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But there, I feel like, I don't know. I am. It's tough to wake a judge up. That's the problem, too. Well, it's later on in the morning, but I feel like they want to get some evidence before

they actually do this, because they don't know. This fucking Mark Thompson guy comes in. Maybe he killed him. I mean, you don't know this fucking Mark Thompson guy comes in. Maybe he killed. I mean, you don't know. All you have is his word. And he's a guy who lives in a fucking RV on someone else's property. So he's not the most upstanding citizen. But now you got Mark Thompson back at his RV and this son of a bitch going back home. Yeah, that's the thing.

This guy's going back home about this whole deal. Now, based on what they do, they had to talk to him immediately and now also back at the station based on what thompson told them the police are uh getting a permission from kirkman's grandparents beautiful to search the property yeah so they don't need the warrant because they're getting permission they said well why might as well try to get permission first just ask and if they say yes fuck it if not then we go get a warrant i mean shit uh so what they end up doing is they bring in dogs and uh because it's a 90 acre property yeah so they're like this fuck this they could be anywhere any fucking where dogs and i mean it was a huge undertaking and 50 square mile city a town it's a 32 square mile town 90 acre

property which 90 acres is big, especially in woods and shit. You need dogs and they figure they're going to need some time to comb this whole thing because, you know, with all this property, it's probably deep in the woods or something. That's like a half mile square. It's huge. It's a huge area. But instead, directly behind the trailer, they found both of Jennifer and Jeremy's bodies in a debris pile, half burned. You know, because bodies, as we know, don't really burn well. Not real flammable.

And not super, try to set yourself on fire. Just for a second. It's not, it doesn't work. It hurts, but it doesn't work. Your skin didn't burst into flames. Takes a long time. Your skin is not an accelerant accelerant unfortunately for anyone who's trying to well i guess fortunately for the rest of the world but if you're trying to burn a body

it's that's that's not working out for you at all it's one of those monks that sit down and self-immolate uh is that what it is immolate yeah they have to soak themselves in fucking gasoline for a long time yeah you have to be soaked and covered in it and then you light yourself up yeah and if you better make sure all the gasoline doesn't burn off before you die or else you'll just be burned a lot. So burning is not a good way to go for people. It just doesn't work very well. So they try, though, and they find them in a debris.

He just left them back there. 90 acres. He's like, right in the back should be fine. You know, dude wouldn't help me drag them. What am I supposed to do? I mean, they're heavy. Fuck, man. Jesus Christ.

I barely got her out of the fucking thing. Oh, man. Jesus Christ. He came down off his buzz. Because, I mean, you put some meth in you, you can drag bodies around a 90 acre. You can set them up and make a little play with them like a puppet show. You can do anything if you're

on enough meth. Oh, my God. What? A murdering? That's a murderer. A murderer on a lot of meth. What do you want? That could happen. They've done way worse than murdering nuts. I didn't say he was going to fuck them, did I? Shit, what's worse?

What's worse? What would you rather be done to you? Have you be danced around or used as a goddamn necrophiliac pincushion? Which one, Jimmy? I think I might like the dance around. Probably. Probably be better. That could be fun almost.

I mean, what's the matter? I'm dead. Yeah, who gives a shit? But at the same time, I don't necessarily want psychopath jizz dripping out of my nose. That's a problem. I don't want that or worse orifices than that. Anywhere else. That's bad, too.

That is awful. I just saw a marionette, like somebody, like Weekend at Bernie's, giving themselves a handjob. With the marionette like somebody like Weekend at Bernie's giving themselves a handjob. With the marionette? Yeah, that's terrible. Just like moving the chain. Oh, no. I think that's worse. That makes it worse.

That might be worse. Is that worse than necrophilia? Doing both, yeah. The necrophiliac pincushion, I think? I think so. That's much worse. Ugh. Autopsies here reveal that Jennifer, she initially uh she died within seconds of a

gunshot wound to the chest is her initial death we'll talk about there's more seconds within seconds so that was a quick death jeremy died of multiple stab wounds and quote contributing gunshot wounds so he was stabbed and shot a whole bunch. By the way, Jennifer also sustained a second gunshot wound to her shoulder. So he shot her twice, even though once was plenty. And she also had bleeding under the skin on her back, on the back of her head that was consistent with having been dragged downstairs. She got bumped, bumped, bumped.

That's why I said when you're dragging a live person, you tend to drag them by the arms so their head doesn't hit anything. That's the point there. If you're dragging a live person, like we've all had to drag a child at some point. Or a drunk friend. Or a drunk friend. You don't drag them by the feet. That's not what you do.

We've all had to do that shit. That's dangerous. Yeah. Jeremy suffered 12 stab wounds. 12. That's a fucking lot and then he shot him and this is an addition to well we'll get to that in a second this is an addition to he was beating him up outside uh as well as gunshot wounds to his face oh boy back and like ass area like lower back ass like around there back of the leg wow that area so he got stabbed 12 times

and shot all over the fucking place including including in the face yeah uh which is crazy fucking shit uh marks on jeremy's neck were also consistent with having been strangled wow so jeremy got the brunt of it this was like the jeremy was the one who really fucking took it. Yeah. It seems like. Whatever rage he had that caused this, Jeremy was the focus of the rage, clearly. It might have been he got in a fight with her and Jeremy got in the middle of it and he snapped on Jeremy or it might have been a fight between those two.

Who the fuck knows? We don't know. Or he shot her and Jeremy freaked and then he's just yeah why are you defending that whore something yeah or something miserable bitch or he attacked jeremy and then she was like why are you attacking my brother stop and then she said he said i'll fucking shoot you too and who knows that's the thing we don't we don't fucking know jeremy also uh and it's so strangled 12 12 stab wounds, shot in the face, back ass. I mean, he's been shot all over the place. Where's Thompson with the knowledge of a gunshot?

None of that shit. None of that shit. Well, we don't know. That's the other thing. He said he didn't hear. We'll talk about Thompson in a second. All right. Marks on Jeremy's neck we talked about.

He also sustained a forehead injury, Jeremy did, which was consistent with being struck with the butt of a rifle. So this is like possibly the initial attack. Yeah. But to the butt of the rifle stab wound. I mean, this is a fucking lot, man. His body also had abrasions that were likely caused after death, which were consistent with being dragged also. So they're building the case against him that he dragged them to this uh debris pile according to the forensic reports jennifer's blood was all over the kitchen of this place

all fucking over the place jeremy's blood was found on the carpet the floor uh the floor mat and the walls kirk's bare footprint was discovered on the floor mat uh which was covered in jeremy's blood so they found a bare footprint in the blood blood, which this is all very incriminating. That means that you were there when there was a lot of blood. Yeah. So at the very least, you saw puddles of blood, walked in it, and didn't alert anyone to this, and then said, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. So not great there.

There were bullet holes all over this fucking trailer, too. He shot a bunch, so at least one, two, three, four, five. He's at least had five shots just with them. There's a whole lot fucking more. This was just a, he went crazy here. What kind of rifle? There were bullet holes, we'll talk about it. There were bullet holes in the front door of the trailer, in a wall beside the refrigerator, and in the refrigerator door.

A bullet was removed from, the bullet that they removed from jennifer's body was identified as you know in match ballistics the rifle uh from all of the gunshots all around the place in the wall over here a second bullet they found in the trailer was uh was also the same thing so they found they matched all these bullets together so he went nuts with one rifle shooting away uh also kirk's finger and palm prints were the only prints discovered on the rifle. Oh, that's not good. That's another thing. So footprint in the blood, prints on the rifle.

It's a problem. Guy saw you dragging a lifeless woman out of your trailer, asked to help dispose of corpses of a man, building quite the case against him at this point here. Also, bullet holes found in the refrigerator had been freshly filled with caulking. So he immediately went and filled those up because I don't know if he thought maybe the cool air would leak out or something. So he went and filled those up kind of like on the wire when Bunk and McNulty went into that girl's apartment that D'Angelo shot, Avon's girlfriend. And they had to reconstruct the whole thing without talking. And they just said, fuck a whole bunch of times.

And they found a bullet hole in the fridge that had been covered up. And they ended up doing a trajectory of it and figuring out that she was shot from outside the window instead of inside the house. And that was how that happened. Similar. You wouldn't know about that, but very, very good. It's good police work. It's good police work. It's solid detective work

there here so uh finger and palm prints all of that uh and also a tube of that same caulking was found in his trash can so he he didn't couldn't burn that in the debris pile he just was like map fuck it's caulk i don't know that ain't gonna get me nothing not great here uh the senior assistant attorney general said that uh officers with cadaver dogs had to search the property and fields they sent them all out there and then they found them right behind the trailer basically uh they had about a dozen police continue to search the grounds for maybe there's more who the fuck knows hey if he's willing to just kill people dump them outside while we're here yeah well we have permission and we have the dogs out might as well fucking

send them around the property see what we dig up run them on a sweep who knows yeah i mean that's a smart thing to do uh so now they have to talk to him again now that first he was like i don't know what the fuck you're talking about um i'm gonna leave now and then they they got permission went search found the bodies his footprint and all sorts of every bit of evidence possible so now it's time to have another chat yeah. Some of your stories are a little inconsistent here. They get a second interview. This is after the bodies are found, like we said. They read him his rights this time.

He said he would talk anyway. He agreed to speak with the officers, waive his rights. But after a minute, obviously, you can only have so much small talk in a murder interrogation. He knows why he's there. So you can only say, like, how's your mom, you know, grandma holding up with your grandpa's

death. How's the Coca-Cola factory for so long before you have two years, two years, two years. So you're going to that parade, the old one with the goods. Are you going to win the Good Citizen Award? Are you up for that? I don't think you're going to talk about why you're not. Let's talk about why you're not going to win that award. So the conversation eventually quickly turns to his potential involvement in the murders.

Obviously, it's at that point that he invokes his right to remain silent. So they arrested him. Obviously, they don't want to talk and fucking arrest you anyway. Fine. No problem. They lock him up while in the booking area because now they have to process him and all that while in the booking area he was agitated and pissed off at the whole process and out of nowhere he just yells out quote i didn't kill them they attacked me uh-oh out of nowhere so number one i didn't kill them they attacked me or two separate things trying to get

your fingerprints bro they attacked you or yeah or you didn't get so you killed them they attacked you so you didn't kill him i don't understand what you're telling me i'm not even a cop just turn your head i just need the profile just come on dude they don't even let me go out on the street yet bro it's two shots it's two shots i don't need you to i'm not asking you to have a certain look i don't need you to look pouty, look longing. Just fucking stare. Look at me. Look away. It's that easy. Dead-eyed stare. Dead-eyed stare, my friend.

I don't even care about this. I don't care what you're here for. Just roll the finger. The next guy's just here for a DUI. I don't give a shit what you're charging. He's not going to yell shit. It doesn't matter. So at that point, later on, he makes, just out of nowhere, as they're walking him to

the jail, he just says, says quote this all stemmed from me being kicked in the balls and pushed into my tv and they're like you'll get your time to talk just go in here i thought you said you didn't want to talk you keep talking you're awfully chatty for somebody that doesn't want to talk so it's almost like he didn't expect them to arrest him and then they arrested him and he's like well i can just say something that'll make him let me go like i'm just they kicked me in the balls like they were going to stop and go oh wait a second did you say the balls did you say he kicked you in the balls and then you were pushed into your tv now if you were only kicked in the balls i'd say fine to kill one of them but that's two infractions a kick in the balls and a push

into the tv so i'd say you know let's get those cuffs off you, sir. I'm sorry. Are those too tight? We're very sorry. The food has been terrible the last couple days. Can we order you something? Because I have Uber Eats on my phone. I'm happy to get you something. This is ridiculous. You still have black shit on your finger?

Get me an alcohol wipe. Guys, we fucking arrested this guy. They kicked him in the balls, guys. Of course he burned them. What do you expect? His hands are still black, you guys. What the fuck do you expect? This is ridiculous.

He hasn't had a decent meal since last night. Can we get something? He's a third, you guys. Can we at least get like an Outback delivery going? Something, you know, like a mid-range steakhouse possibly? And let's not go crazy here, but. His grandfather didn't make it to 50 years. Come on.

Jesus fucking Christ. He's going to get a Coke watch. Do you know that he's going to get a Coke watch? And so is his father from different Coke down in Florida. He also got a Coke watch from his company connections it's perfect everyone's got coke watches so for his crap he didn't make he got nothing he didn't get it so during the course of that second interview by the way at one point the police informed him obviously that a forensic team searched your property and you know well we found bodies there so that's why you're sitting here in front of us

they asked him uh quote what do you think we found? And he said, quote, I don't know, but that's just what you said you were going to tell me. So they were just like, I don't know what that means. That's just what you said you were going to tell me. I just said, what do you think? What do you think we found, man? Yeah, because they said, I guess we're going to find those bodies, aren't we? And he said, I don't know. And then they said, what do you think we found? He said, that's just what you said you're going to, what do you think we found, man? Yeah. Cause they said, I guess we're going to find those bodies, aren't we? And he said, I don't know.

And then they said, what do you think we found? He said, that's just what you said. You were going to tell him he's very unclear. I feel like he's coming down from a pretty good high. He's crashing hard. He's not real lucid at this point. So they just said, fuck it. Let's just arrest him for first degree murder and do all that.

So like I said, they process them, all of that. First degree murder in the death of Jeremy Heward and second degree murder in the death of Jennifer Heward. I don't know if that is based on the egregiousness of the attack on Jeremy. It seemed to be worse. I don't understand what that is exactly. But Cassavaugh's attacks, they say, during the arraignment, the prosecutor says

they were fueled by drugs and alcohol. He said that his, because they have the Huard's father and the arraignment talk about their history. And he said that they a lot of drugs and alcohol with the couple and that he knew about this abuse. The whole family kind of knew that he was a dick and he was abusive to her. She, by the way, was a retirement home worker. The daughter, Jennifer, she worked in a retirement home. She was too afraid, he said, to report the abuse to the police. She was too afraid of him, which is fucking horrible.

And especially for the father to do that. He must feel guilty also. He said, quote, she never turned him in. She was too afraid of what he might do. So, I mean, there's a lot of people in that fucking boat. I would say uh yeah that's that's not an uncommon position it's horrible it's so uncomfortable it's super it's super uncomfortable you gotta confront somebody yeah something terrible it's yeah and hope that

they fucking handle it and then hope they act like an adult even though they obviously don't because they beat you up when they're angry so So it's very fucking, it's ridiculous. He also testified, the father did, that Jeremy lived at home with him and that he had no idea why Jeremy went to go see. He doesn't know why they went to pick the sister up from Franklin. They're like, well, what was, they were trying to put that together.

He has no idea why, because Jeremy was out doing drugs. He didn't leave from the house. The father also, he described his a as a loving and protecting older brother which i mean obviously you're gonna you're gonna have that uh during the same uh this is awesome during the same uh hearing the preliminary hearing uh kirkman is attacked by a guy in the courtroom really fucking tries to get him tries to go over the fucking fence yeah like a family member of somebody i like him already this was the person they were related to the person that sent us i think was related to this guy who's whatever uh this guy is michael griffin who's 22

uh he ends up being charged with criminal mischief and disorderly conduct and resisting arrest he earned it and fuck it yeah hero uh they uh the i guess the outburst came as people were standing at the end of the arraignment hearing this guy jumped over the railing and lunged between the spectators area and cassavaugh and he was caught by deputies the deputies as they got him they said he never touched him he never touched him yeah you know to say that there's no whatever there's no contact right uh but he tried to he fucking dove over the thing at him and tried to get at him so i hate like, I hate you, Jeffrey. I hate you, girl, from the Jeffrey Dahmer trial.

Yeah, yeah. He's the one that everybody's like, yeah, good. Fucking go get him, sir. Yes, that's the thing. And this is like the Fred Goldman thing. For some reason, I would like Fred Goldman more if he did that. I would be fine with that.

I could understand your emotional thing like that, but to just sit there with your mustache and look for money, I feel less. I'd respect deputies a lot more if they'd maybe hesitate a couple seconds before they go get them. Yeah, that's true. But that's their fucking job. If they don't, then the state can be sued and then they get, it's a big fucking money

thing. I don't know, kind of look down at your shoe and be like, I thought my shoe was untied and I didn't see what was going on. I missed it. The guy was fast. Did you see how fast he was? Jesus, it's a blur. He's probably a UFC heavyweight champion, I would assume. I don't know. I didn't want to get going on. I missed it. The guy was fast. Did you see him? Jesus, it's a blur. He's probably a UFC heavyweight champion, I would assume.

I don't know. I didn't want to get in the middle of that. So, yeah, this happens here. So he's arraigned now, and they have a pretty strong case against him. And it only gets stronger, because now they get some evidence from a cellmate of his. The detectives with the State Police police major crimes unit interview a guy named cory donovan here uh this guy had been he's a convicted bank robber who was jailed with cassavaugh at the uh house of corrections the uh whatever it is belknap county house of corrections

this donovan told these investigators that he and cassavaugh shared a cell and so they spent about 20 hours a day locked up together, obviously, and during that time they began to talk. They said that Donovan began, Kasabov started giving out some of the details of the crimes during their conversations here. This

Donovan said, quote, I kind of fished a little bit. Why do you I would be like, don't tell me that shit. I don't want to know. I don't want to know a goddamn i don't want to know what the fuck you did to anybody he said i kind of fished a little bit i'd ask uh little questions and i'd get responses and uh i basically got to learn a little bit more about his case each day as he just let uh let things slip that what that he wasn't even thinking uh wasn't that he wasn't even what the fuck he let things slip you tell me a criminal a guy in prison doesn't have a convicted bank robber

he let things slip that he wasn't even you thinking that i'm i'm remembering right i don't know what that means but these are exact quotes so the om-om and the odds and the stammers and everything uh during the interview he also told investigators that he learned from Cassavaugh. It's a.22 rifle, by the way. I forgot to tell you that. I wanted to get to that with the forensics here. That when the police seized the rifle, that a.22 caliber handgun from his home, which is a Walther handgun, is still missing. That's what this Donovan told him.

He told me you didn't get his handgun is still missing. That's what this Donovan told him. He told me you didn't get his handgun. Got it. And Donovan says, oh, and that's the one you guys were looking for, right? Because that's what the guy told him. They're going to be looking for that gun because I guess he used that gun to shoot also. So according to this whole interview here,

this Donovan says that Cassavoy wanted to kill, wanted, he, okay. Cassavoy, he's telling him all this, this donovan says that cassavaugh wanted to kill uh wanted he okay cassavaugh he's telling him all this does donovan because he cassavaugh wants donovan to kill mark thompson the guy in the rv uh who's a key witness in the case he's like look we'll do he then he does like some throw mama from the train shit here with like he said that uh uh that uh uh cassavaugh was gonna he wanted him to you, he didn't help him with the body, so now he's going to testify and he wants him. So Donovan says that he and Casavar hatched a plan, which they discussed that if Donovan was released on an electronic monitoring bracelet, because that was part of his case possibly, that he would go to Thompson's home in Belmont and photograph him, which is weird. Donovan would then visit Casavant in jail to show him the photo to make sure he found the right man.

So rather than just say, here's his description and address, he wants him to go take a picture of him and then bring it back to jail to identify, which seems a highly complicated way to do this whole thing here. But this was the plan they have, which is fucking nuts fucking why don't you write a letter and send the picture and then if you get a yes or no yeah and you know it's possible it's a lot of work it's a lot of work and show a guy a picture so by the time you go back what if the guy changed clothes or fucking did his hair different put a hat on so shaved his face fuck man so this cassavaugh here uh uh donovan suggested to

cassavaugh that if the missing gun turned up basically like if you tell me where that gun is i could hold thompson a gun point and make him uh and and make him load the murder weapon and then shoot him with it making it look like he committed suicide with a murder weapon. Holy shit. What a fucking what a brilliant fucking thing. Get two idiots together in a jail and that's going to solve the whole thing. Mark Thompson couldn't take the guilt of it all. He had the gun. His fingerprints are all over these fucking bullets. And he's the one who did the shooting.

So apparently the shootings happened with the pistol and he just hit Jeremy with the rifle. Got it. So we don't know if he hit him and then stabbed him. And then she my thought is he probably hit him with the pistol and he just hit jeremy with the rifle but got it so we don't know if he hit him and then stabbed him and then she my thought is she probably hit him with the rifle he went down started stabbing him that's what i'm thinking because the gunshots loud then she came over tried to break it up i feel like he shot her and then said fuck it bang bang bang with jeremy too at the same time that's my theory of the case but what the fuck do i know the hole in this plot though especially these are criminals and they're not very smart because they're caught what if

donovan hands thompson the gun while it's loaded and thompson just goes fuck it and shoots him that's the thing i'll hold him this is this okay that's what i wanted to get back to that i could hold him at gunpoint and make him load the same weapon that I'm holding on him. Right. How does that work? How does that happen? I don't understand. You have to hand him a gun and tell him to load it. You're going to have to bring another gun. Now you've armed the man that you're holding.

Well, you have no gun because you gave him the gun because that's the gun you're going to hold on him. This is just absolute. This is a dumb plan. These people are like Coen brother movie criminals. You know what I mean? I'm an idiot and I've already found the floor that's the thing yeah that was that was the big gaping thing here uh so then and then he's gonna take the then loaded weapon away from him and shoot him with it but make it look like he committed suicide so wow put it in his hands you gotta get powder on his hands i mean there's a whole I don't think they thought about the forensics of the whole thing.

I'm going to say here. I don't think they've seen any of these shows. None of them. They've never heard this, obviously. So they asked Donovan here, how did Cassava react to this fucking idea of a plan? He says, quote, Cassava's eyes lit right up. He was like, he was like, yeah, if you get you get out he says that's an awesome idea and uh but i didn't he didn't want to go into where the gun was uh what what i had what i would have happened

to it he said so he didn't want to go into what happened to the gun is his quote but he stutters and fucking stammers with every sentence he says he says at that point i say yo i'm not out so i don't really need to know that anyway so don't worry about it so's like, he didn't want to look like he was digging for information. So he's like, well, yeah, I'm in here anyway, so don't even worry about it. Maybe when I get out, it'll be different. But for now, fuck it. He says, and Jesus Christ. And the guy says, and I've been shot with a.22.

And I said, you know, it didn't even hurt. That's what he told me. He was trying to tell him, like, you know, hey, a.22 is not that bad to get shot with. Like, I'll shoot this guy, no problem. So then the guy, he says that Kassovoss says, well, when I shoot people, I aim for the head. That's what Kasavas said. So he told this man, when I shoot people, I aim for the head. Well, you hit a girl in the chest and the shoulder.

You're a bad shot. You hit a dude in the ass, man. He did shoot him in the face. That's a real bad shot. Yeah, also the face, though, which was right on target. You aim for the face, and then out of five shots, one hits it? And it's probably the two while he was squirming, and then when he's dead, he shot him once in the face, which is crazy here. He said, and he told me a bunch of times he had to call people to remove Jen and Jay so he wouldn't have to kill them because of their crackhead behaviors.

So Kassevois claiming they were constantly driving him not several different times he had to like have other friends get them the fuck away from him so he didn't kill them because of their quote crackhead behavior which is doesn't include dragging corpses out to the back of your trailer to burn that's not crackhead behavior or anything yeah also says that they uh they discussed wiring a bomb while in the jail together wiring a bomb to explode beneath the driver's seat of thompson's car home these uh i and home i i i don't i don't even know what or or there's another option so so far it's get him to load a weapon and then kill him with the same weapon after he's for for some reason, given it back to you. And then that'll implicate him.

Or wiring a bomb to just to explode beneath the seat of his car home. Have you seen Casino? Or, and Scarface, we can get a remote one and drive behind him. or here's option three, dropping a test tube containing acid into the tank, into the neck of the gas tank so that when Thompson filled up, the mixture would explode in his face. This is a fucking,

this is a real idea that human beings said might work. What the fuck are you thinking? Are they 10? Who? And they're gradually going from murder to like childhood prank that's what i was gonna say they're 10 and at some point when this in this meeting of the minds the wiley coyote got up and said i'm out this is getting too silly i'm out

guys i'm sorry i i mean i was in up until the acid exploding and this doesn't work does this evolve into making him sit on a whoopee cushion? This is so fucking ridiculous, man. What the fuck is going on? Jesus Christ. What is this? This is ridiculous. Jesus Christ.

Donovan also believes that if he were released under federal monitoring, monitoring conditions and was, quote, given some help that he could learn the location of the murder weapon. So he's trying to use this to get out, too. He's like, look, if you let me out now, I'll, quote, follow through on the plot, which I'll get the murder weapon for you. I'll be a big hero. I'm going to win that Good Citizen Award down in Belmont.

You let me out on this bank robbery charge. Bank. Bank robbery to Good Citizen. I'll never do another bank. Never. It'll look so much better on my resume. You guys will have. Bank. Bank robbery to good citizen. I'll never do another bank. Never. It'll look so much better on my resume. You guys will have the gun.

Win, win, babe. I think everything's fine. And your banks are safe. Win, win, win. Shit, I'm cool. There's so much winning. I'm going to win that award. We're all going to win, especially me, that fucking award. I hope it's a medal I can wear around my neck so everyone can see it.

Or a giant key. I'd like to have that. I'll put it right on my dashboard. I want a real one that fits every lock in this motherfucker that's it especially the banks but i'm not gonna use it i'm never gonna use it but if i could just have the key it'll show me how much trust you have for me and how much i've grown that's the thing you can say look now he was an untrust he was a bank robber now we've rehabilitated him to the point where we can trust him so much we just give him keys to the vaults now make me holiday cheer meister also i might want to go get a subway sandwich at two in the

morning because they're not open late and i'm hungry sometimes it happens so i'll just make my own don't worry about i don't need anybody there i know how to make a sandwich the fuck i won't toast it i won't make a mess don't worry just make it i'll clean up so uh crystal sanborn also told investigators of the threats she's the one who was talking on the phone and heard i'll fucking kill you you whore right uh she's that one there uh she obviously has to talk to the cops about that you sound like a speaking i'll fucking kill you you whore i'll fucking kill you you whore kill you you whore every time you pull the string oh it landed on that one again shit i'll fucking kill you you whore what the fuck yeah jesus it's great that's the worst

the worst speaking spell ever it's's a good one, actually. That's what we need. It's solid, yeah. A small-town murder speaking spell. Never mind ringtones. Text alerts. Small-town murder speaking spell. Wow.

Oh, fuck. It's Stephen Hawking threatening his wife. I'll fucking kill you, you whore. I'll fucking kill you, you whore. Which kind of sounded a little Casey Kasem-esque, too, on that one. I'll fucking kill you, you whore which kind of sounded a little casey case of mask do on that one i'll fucking kill you you whore coming at you oh jesus all the way to number one it's i'll fucking kill you you whore top 40 right out of a slow song it's fucking ponderous fucking ponderous that's an old reference you'd have to listen.

I don't even know what. Dedication to a goddamn dog. Goddamn dead dog dedication of coming out of an upbeat fucking record. I think he says upbeat number. Upbeat number. That's what it is. I was looking for the old timey term. Record number.

Number. It's number. From an upbeat number. An upbeat number. Fuck you, Casey. Yeah, that's great. Jesus Christ. I miss you, buddy. An upbeat number. Fuck you, Casey. Yeah, that's great. Jesus Christ. I miss you, buddy.

Oh, God. So Crystal Sanborn, they get all of her statements on tape and all that kind of thing. And they want, obviously, to admit that threat as evidence of his general demeanor toward her and the fact that he was willing to fucking kill her. her and the fact that he was willing to fucking kill her so uh they uh also donovan uh told police that uh the whole thing about donovan about mark thompson uh quote and they they're in court in the preliminary shit they're trying to rule out all this stuff the defense is and uh they said the prosecution said quote the defendant's statements are relevant uh because they are probative of his state of mind at the time of the murders his intent intent to kill Jennifer Heward and his consciousness of of the guilt and identity of himself as the killer.

So this all makes sense that you would put that in there and not want it. Of course, he doesn't want somebody saying, I'll fucking kill you. Admit it. And you whore. And the guy in prison who's coming up with Wile E. Coyote fucking witness attack. It's crazy. Which why would you want to kill these people if it wasn't true so uh yeah at the trial the state uh i guess has to prove that he killed the he killed these people and acted within the requisite mental state of

what they're trying to say he was that's they're trying to set up a mental state and then say he was in that state and he killed those people uh so they need a first degree murder charge. The state must prove that Kirkman's mental state was, quote, purposely with premeditation and deliberation. Which, that's a lot of kill. He killed Jeremy in three different ways. So I would call that pretty deliberate. Can they get him on three charges of murder for that? That shit was not accidental. Let's put it that way.

Yeah. They said, quote, since there's no way to examine the inner operations of the defendant's mind, his state of mind and intent must be evaluated in light with all the facts and circumstances surrounding the victim's death. That's what they say in the official motion, why they're going for first-degree murder and all that sort of thing. Now, here we go here. Now, according to a transcript of an interview with Crystal Sanborn, there's more to her story besides just I'll fucking kill you, you fucking whore. Crystal Sanborn tells him about one time she went to the trailer of Cassavaugh to pick up her brother Frederick, who was hanging out there. And that that night, for whatever reason, he got mad at her.

Cassavaugh got mad at Crystal and held a nine millimeter pistol to her head. Holy shit. So this is another character thing to add. Not only is he threatened to kill people, but then he holds guns to a woman's head for fucking no apparent reason. Threatening to kill her. I would say a gun to your head without even verbalization is a threat of killing at that point. I think that's worse than I'll fucking kill you, you whore. I'd rather be called a whore than have a gun to my head.

Definitely. So fuck, man. I guess the week before they were killed, the Hewards, Sanborn told the police that she was with this. She didn't tell them a week before. She was telling the police that this happened a week before the deaths. She was with Jennifer Heward at a home and that cassavaugh came over uh took jen and slammed her head off the door so this is just uh the thursday before the killing so this is

within a week of the killings uh he in front of other people blatantly and deliberately bounced her head off a fucking wall off a door so that's that's crazy that's that's insane domestic violence is crazy enough but when people start doing it just in front of people they don't even have any shame in it you're like jesus that's been going on way too long yeah uh crystal said quote she came running back in the house crying and where kirk had pulled a gun on me before i was completely scared so i left she didn't want to get involved she's like the guy had like fucking gun to my head two weeks ago i'm not going to get involved here uh sanborn also here to crystal told the investigators uh about the uh that that

cassavaugh would call jennifer eward's father's home regularly she'd he'd call her father to threaten to kill jennifer i'm gonna kill your fucking daughter like this is what i mean every this was no secret that that this was the relationship. There was no secret whatsoever. What's going on with that dad? Has he just been like, my daughter's out of control. Her boyfriend's calling me threatening shit. And she's 26 years old and they're all been doing drugs and the older brother's into drugs.

And I think he's just fucking tired. He's probably been dealing with drugs and kids for 15 years. And he's just like, you know what? I don't even't even know anymore i don't know they're out there doing shit this one who knows who she's with this week because they're on drugs and if he doesn't know he's the father they don't discuss integral it's the old frog in the hot water thing it's not a frog in hot water and jumps right out you put in cold water gradually turn the heat yeah it'll cook itself to death that's the thing that's what's because yeah if you call over 15 years if this happened at 15 right if when she was in the 10th grade somebody called i'm gonna kill your fucking daughter blah blah blah there'd probably be shit done about it

but over the this time period of he probably just they probably just you just give up my daughter's 26 and somebody calls my house talking about they're gonna kill yeah i'll meet you somewhere exactly unless it's been a long thing. And I don't know. None of these people went to the police. I mean, it's fucking crazy. Crystal Sanborn said, quote, Whenever she was out with somebody, he would call her phone and say that he was going to kill her if she didn't get home. So obviously jealous.

Quote, she said, quote, I know a lot of it was due to drugs. She would steal his drugs and get high while he was out working or whatever, which was then she he'd get pissed off, beat the shit out of her because he came home and expects his drugs there. And then they're not there. He beats her up. They have a big fight. Then they end up getting more drugs and everything's fine for a while. It's fucking crazy.

This whole relationship is crazy. And that's coming from her friend at trial. He's indicted on six counts of murder of this whole thing here. The big ones are the one count of first degree murder and two counts of second degree murder with respect to each victim because they give them an option of first or second just in case they don't want to convict him on first. Got it. They're not going to let him walk on that shit. So all that sort of thing. over his objection over kirkman's objection to admit the testimony of crystal sanborn as i would say yeah constant fucking violence against this woman as well as a bunch of the

transcripts and videotape recordings of the two police interviews with kirkman he didn't want to have that shit in there because he looks bad if you can see his body language change and his demeanor change and everybody's seen that on fucking law and order and first 48 and everything else they go oh he's guilty look at it happened on the wire once or twice i bet once or twice on the wire it did happen except when you'd interview the crew most of the the drug crews like if you get bird in there when you got bird in there and said did you kill somebody he threatened to uh quote uh he threatened to fuck keema quote in all three holes so that was that was his response to it who you let me out of this

cuff bitch i'll fuck you in all three holes that's what he said so this person's a cop no no no the person was a drug it's a a drug deal a drug gangs enforcer no no who's the drug gang enforcer threatening to all a police detective okay a police detective a lesbian police detective by the way who has no interest yeah and then he calls her several uh obviously uh lesbian slurs yeah yeah of course it's a it's a pretty decent diatribe uh you're just like wow he was passionate about that holy shit that's a lot all three a little too much ouch ouch yeah that's not great so uh yeah this all they uh they they keep the testimony in though it doesn't end up getting bounced out thankfully uh because uh her testimony is really relevant i would say it's

super fucking it's not like it's 10 years and they do they they cite a case of based on new hampshire state law that uh it doesn't have to be like five minutes before the threat could be because there's a case where a threat was made three years before the event happened and they let that in and allowed that as a sufficient as a sufficient threat so if they're saying well that was two weeks that's way closer than fucking three years so eat dicks but that's the legal justification for that in the case where it was three years did they get convicted yes they ended up being convicted that was that was considered a threat and that was a big part of the conviction.

Also, the threat made under the circumstances similar to the events on the night of her death also was the same type of thing. The threat was made during the course of a heated argument between them. Evidence of the prior threat also went into whether he intended to kill her when he shot her. Because as you say, if he's threatened and he's thought about it and then he does it, that's premeditated and deliberate is what they're trying to get at. And they're also saying that the court ends up allowing all this in. He also tries to argue that there's a prejudicial effect that weighs the probative value of the whole thing, but they disagree.

The court says, quote, because the issue of the defendant's intent was central to the trial of this matter, the probative value was significant, which I think is fucking exactly correct. Sure. There is a three part test here for to to establish admissibility of evidence here. Three part test to see if it's admissible. One is the evidence must be relevant for the purpose other than proving the defendant's character or disposition. So it has to have some evidentiary quality. Two, there must be

clear proof that the defendant committed the act. And three, the probative value of the evidence must not be substantially outweighed by the prejudice to the defendant. So they have to weigh it along without all the other evidence. They can't give it extra weight. And it also has to be like, they have to weigh it along without all the other evidence they can't give an extra extra weight uh and it also has to be like they have to believe that it happened it's gotta be fair it's gotta be fair which makes total fucking sense here and they had they ruled that it

is admissible uh the the he contends kirkman contends that the the interview uh ended abruptly at the that that there should that he showed the jury like the tape ended abruptly. He said, which could have led the jury to infer that he asserted his right to remain silent, which would have made him he feels look guiltier in the tape. That's why he doesn't want that tape being shown like that. Not because it looks like he killed his fucking girlfriend or brother. Obviously, he also argues that most of the interview contains no evidence against him and amounts to little more than quote casual conversation but body language is a lot and that's what they're trying to show these people uh that it is also he concludes that the president

he says the prejudicial effect of the evidence substantially outweighs the probative value and the court says no fuck off so the the evidence uh the other witnesses come in the videotape shit comes in from him all that shit is in uh everything here the trial court determined that because his demeanor visibly changed when the conversation turned to the murders that the interview appeared to reveal the defendant lying to the police about what they would find in a search of his property and that's obviously important in a fucking murder trial uh i would say here the state also asserts that that his that a defendant's conduct after a homicide including his attempts to conceal the killings as well as any statements he makes or facts that the jury

will be instructed to consider uh in determining whether the defendant committed first or second degree murder or any fucking murder at all for that matter uh so that's the only insight they have basically they said they can't read his mind like we said before uh they asked uh the the big deal was him when they asked what do you think we found on your property and all that that's what he wanted to keep out now the defense here wow what do you say to the you're the defense in this uh they're they're crazy crazy. Everyone's lying. They're all on drugs. What a railroading.

What a fuck, man. I bet it was that Mark Thompson. I bet. Fuck. And that Crystal Sanborn. I bet they're fucking. I heard they're fucking. I'm not going to.

Archie is a miserable bitch. Miserable bitch. And a bit of a whore. I'm just going to say right now. Just going to say it. Bit of a whore. We're real close to Salem. I'm going to guess guess which i say we

should probably burn her i'm just i don't want to i don't want to accuse nobody but if we burned her i would not be upset about it so we're burning crystal okay i think that these was witches too the two that they burned oh absolutely big witches and that's listen my man didn't have nothing to he's listen he saved y'all from witches. Don't you understand that? He deserves the holiday cheermeister. One witch, and now he's trying to save you from another with that crystal sandborn. That's two witches. He's up two witches.

Witches and a warlock. And a fucking warlock. That Jeremy, that runs in the family. Don't you understand? Witch, warlock, they're brother and sister. Same shit. I'll tell you that right now, boy. brother and sister same same shit i'll tell you that right now boy so uh these two here uh uh the the defense of this is their their alternate theory of the crime because they need to present

present fucking something they got to uh they present that uh this whole thing was related to a failed drug deal involving several area men but not kirk he had nothing to do with any of this shit at all uh that's what his public defender said anyway. She said, quote, Jennifer and Jeremy Heward were murdered, but Kirk Cassavaugh is not the murderer. So obviously that wasn't a suicide, but fuck. Yeah, this, wow. She, even the defense attorney admitted on first glance

that Cassavaugh looked pretty guilty. Yeah. He said, look, I'm not going to lie to you. Few fucking. It looks bad, but there's problems with the case. OK, first of all, the schedule of Mark, the testimony of Mark Thompson. This guy, forget about it. They said that the guy who says, quote unquote, that he saw them violently saw Cassavall violently beating up Jeremy and then dragging a limp corpse of Jennifer from the structure.

That's fucking nuts. She says the defense attorney says what the police did not know was that Mark Thompson was withholding information from them. That's the whole thing that they say here. Step back and stare at it and stare at the case real good. It's like it's like a painting in the mall. You just unfocus your eyes. That's what you do. You unfocus your eyes.

Spaceship right in front of you. So she says that he, Thompson, is covering up the involvement of a man named Jack Vincent of Northfield and Jeff Torello of Laconia, of Northfield and Jeff Torello of Laconia, who were friends of both the Hewards and Cassavaugh, who were, quote, looking to recoup from a drug deal gone bad, but Kirk was not involved in any of that, so he didn't know what was going on. He just said, what the hell happened? I've been framed.

Oh, my God. So this is the OJ defense is exactly what it was. Even though it's clearly me, it was drug dealers, drug deal gone bad, those fucking colombians man everywhere except these aren't colombians that was like a guinea from fucking uh jeff tarallo of laconia new hampshire some fucking guinea and jack vincent so yeah no uh she also told the jury this is eight men and eight women total and then they can peel off the four alternates uh that the defense team would not be able to clarify

who did kill the Huards. Now, they said, look, we're going to tell you a story, and it's going to involve other people killing these people. Now, we don't know who these, we have no theory of how it happened. We just figure that these other people probably did it. If it wasn't these two we've mentioned, it's probably others. I mean, shit, they have countless enemies. Everybody but Kirk Cassavaugh, basically.

Look for a Pontiac Tempest. That's all it is, a Pontiac fucking Tempest. So, Jesus Christ. But they could show that Cassavaugh had not killed them and that the evidence was manipulated to point the finger at him. Because it's a big setup. But the Attorney General said the state would be able to clearly show that cassavaugh killed uh the hewards yeah obviously here uh they have the trial and it's all the evidence we just stated all the forensics all the testimony that was allowed in uh the jury comes back on this uh guilty obviously of something uh guilty of second

degree murder in the death of jennifer and first degree murder in jeremy's death so that's a big one first degree murder is chunky yeah uh so they go to hampshire though yeah they go to sentencing on this thing and uh who he gets sentenced here and uh the judge says you sir may fuck off uh life without parole no parole uh life for the first degree murder and then a little later on he's sentenced for jennifer 40 years to life to be served consecutively also so just in case that's just to be that's just to bury him further because obviously life without parole nothing else needed uh but extra sir but you're getting a little bit figure it out a little bit extra just so you know you're in here we will keep your corpse another 40 to 60 years we don't care i wish they would

that would be great nope we're keeping it in a glass cabinet up front until it's time i wish they were your ancestors your descendants can have it back if they want it 40 years from now but otherwise the little fucking countdown above it with red numbers, we're going to turn it to powder and put it all over our flowers in the back with like hundreds of a second. Clicking the warden's flower garden. That's where it's going. So now during the sentencing, the victim's families just kept family just kept pleading for him to confess to the murders and all this sort of shit. But he remained silent during the whole thing. Two dozen family members of the Huards were there and obviously a little bit emotional.

The defense attorney said she disagreed with the content of the pre-sentencing investigative report compiled by the New Hampshire State Department of Corrections. She said that Kasava stood by his not guilty pleas, but added that issue was best raised in the appeal process. So he's not going to say I didn't do shit during sentencing. Not that it matters. His life without parole. The prosecutor detailed a lengthy list of relatives and friends of Jennifer Hewitt, who had either witnessed Kasava's alleged abuse of her or threatening her life. The prosecutor said, quote, His behavior after the murder was equally as despicable.

He threw her away like a piece of garbage and exhibited not a shred of remorse when he was interviewed by police. He called her a miserable bitch. Abusers and murderers like the defendant don't stop unless they are stopped. Yeah. Bill Rowley, who's a cousin of the Hewards,

was he spoke and he called on Cassavato to confess. He said, quote quote if you were a real man you'd stand up in the courtroom and let us have some peace and tell us what really happened that night uh not bad at all uh the uh victim's grandmother she got up on the stands and gave this motherfucker the business all right his old lady got up there and said my fucking 48 year coca-cola whatever husband that's cassava Sorry. I don't know what the Hewitt's grandparents are like, but she got on the stand, Louise coats and fucking laid into this asshole.

She said, quote, maybe God will forgive you, but I never will. She called him a coward and a bully. She said that he had other options. He could have called 911 if he were being attacked in his own home. She said, quote, what I want for you is to stand up and say you did it. You can't blame them anymore for what you did is to stand up and say you did it. You can't blame them anymore for what you did. Please stand up and tell us you're sorry.

When someone takes the life of another person, it causes repercussions for every citizen in this state. By your actions, you took away two people who could have added something wonderful to our whole environment. So, yes. And then the judge says, quote, Now you probably don't care how the family of Jay and Jenny feel about what you've done to. How about what you've done to your own family? And then the grandmother of this is the best because the grandmother piggybacks on this. His grandma.

Oh, that. Her grandma. The victim's grandmother. She said, your siblings, your mother, your grandparents, aunts and uncles, they felt the same emotions we did. They have to live the rest of their lives knowing what you did and realizing that they raised a monster, which, yeah, I would say so. She said, during the trial,

we saw some horrific pictures of what you did to Jay and Jenny and how you threw them on trash piles. The autopsy pictures were so horrific that none of us will ever forget them, but the pictures I will always remember is not the one shown during the trial. It's the one of my brother

carrying his children to their grave. That is fucking rough. And then a standing O. And then a standing O and a mic drop, and then the judge says, fucking life without parole. That is just, wow. And then the committee comes and hangs medals on her. Yeah, she gets the Good Citizen Award.

It's all good. Kasava showed no emotion during this whole thing. Nothing. He is credited. Nope, he just did their stone face. He is credited with 940 days of pre-trial confinement which means nothing and he was ordered to pay restitution for funeral expenses of 2742.50 and 2997.50 plus the statutory 17 administrative fee to the victim's compensation fund, which I bet they'll never fucking get. Kordalko also recommended that he receive drug

and alcohol treatment and counseling and that he complete counseling treatment or education programs as directed by the correctional authorities and that's easy. That's easy. Who cares? No more alcohol for you. 20. You're locked down. So good luck. Pretty great.

Yeah. Look at that so uh well they have a lot of drugs in jail as we'll talk about but uh they the judge here said that the second sentence has no practical effect as he's already been sentenced to life without parole but uh it was a separate day of justice for the killing of the second victim just another chance for me to tell him to go fuck himself that's all i wanted that's judge for i just told him fuck himself it was fun fuck off and i loved it so during the appeal uh that he appeals obviously uh he our appeals with uh that they admitted evidence that he previously threatened her it's the same shit he didn't want in the court he appeals at the crystal sanborn shit and all the

other people who said that he threatened her in front of people and then held a gun to this one's head and all that type of shit. The court says, quote, we reject the defendant's contention that the trial court erred in failing to issue a limiting instruction in Sanborn's testimony. So fuck off on count one. Two is admitting evidence that he terminated his initial interview with the police. That whole thing because he didn't like when they cut the fucking tape. Yeah, that's that's ridiculous. They said tough shit basically uh they did say that that wasn't the best way to do it uh they did kind of admire

they got on the on the prosecution a little bit for that they said quote that gave the jury the impression that because the defendant had killed the victims he invoked his right to silence they said uh presenting the facts of that interview more vaguely could have reduced the prejudice against him. The judge said, quote, that's not the best way to present evidence. The best way to present evidence is to reduce prejudice. So that makes sense. But it doesn't matter. It's not enough to do anything.

And also admitting the evidence from the second police interview also. A couple of things were redacted, and he was trying to get off on that, basically. The interview appeared to reveal the defendant lying to the police about what they would find in a search of his property. And so they said, well, yeah, that's what we're looking for is evidence that he's a fucking liar, too, on top of it. So that outweighs any prejudice. And they tell him you can keep fucking off, have a good one, enjoy life in prison without parole, which is great. Now, 2017, his name pops up again in the paper here.

He's gotten a more, he's stuck, he's fucked on appeals and all that kind of shit, unless he comes up with some cause, some habeas thing. Anyway, 2017, there's a big article about crackdowns in the prison due to drugs. And they've caused such discomfort for prisoners. They took away their board games. People aren't allowed to send the mail like physical shit anymore. Like all these different crackdowns. So they talked to a bunch of prisoners about it.

And one of them is Kirkman Cassavala III. They talked to him. He said, quote, this is what Kirkman said. Now he's trying to diagnose and fix the system now, this fucking idiot. All right? He's a social. A trailer-dwelling crackhead murderer is going to fucking tell us what's going on here. He said, quote, they're trying to plug the little leaks instead of the big ones.

He says that he complains that he no longer gets greeting cards over Christmas from his best friend and that visits from his grandmother have been stripped of their joy due to limit a stripped of their joy. We're sorry. We're real sorry. Does your grandma not get to have a joyous visit with her grandson? She prison. I know another grandma who doesn't get a joyous visit with any of their fucking people. It's fucking prison. He says, quote, My grandmother visits me once a week when she comes up now there are no cards no board games no food we don't have enough conversation to talk for three hours so she's going to travel four hours for what we need fucking parcheese here now i need simon when she comes in the door if connect four is not on the table i'm leaving we don't have anything to talk

about for a half an hour what are you staring staring at each other? Three hours. No, so they need to play fucking Battleship and look at greeting cards, and that'll pass the time. Figure out something to talk about. Or have her come once a month. Hey, this poor bastard can't talk to his grandma as freely and openly as he would like to. What are you kidding me? Don't you feel bad for him? He has a Facebook page because he's a dildo.

Yeah. Not that you're a dildo if you have a Facebook page, but he's a dildo that happens to have one. And he also has a Vimeo account, which is the video site, but no vids loaded up to it. He's not done anything. But the picture on the Vimeo account is fucking, it's him and his prison scrubs, like these beige prison scrubs trying to look hard. And I'm like, that's your Vimeo picture? What a turd.

You fucking lunatic. Well, that's Belmont, New Hampshire. Wow. And that is a complete asshole named Kurt Cassavaugh. The third story. He's an asshole. He's a miserable bitch. He's a miserable bitch.

And thank you to the listener who who actually sent that to us, because honestly, that that was a cool one that we we needed to find. And that was one where I was like I said, I was looking for one. And that was the one that I found. You did great. And I didn't do shit. I just found this person sent it to us, I think, right here. What's the name?

Let's give a good name first. Give some credit to somebody where it's due. It is Kathy DeFelice Hines. Thank you, Kathy. Who sent it on Facebook. What a story. We really appreciate that. That was super cool.

Yeah. So thank you for sending that to us. And all of that good stuff. If you like that show, I have an idea. Yeah. I think, now this is going to be out of left field. This is crazy. You can go to iTunes, Apple Podcasts, whatever that purple icon is.

Give us five stars. Doesn't matter what you say. It's not for our ego, but it does help us drive up the charts. So we really appreciate that. And we are going to be on a new network so we need all that support we can also uh quick thing here besides giving us five stars uh we are going to have a new thing when we go to our new network in july where every other week we're going to do a bonus show all right it's it's on there whatever their i don't know premium we'll get we'll get to whatever it is but it's not a bonus show like a story we're gonna do like uh basically just some extra stuff uh it's gonna be like 15 20 minutes uh whether it be uh some questions you

guys have asked us or or just updates things like that it's just gonna be 15 20 minutes of like just some extra stuff we'll make it funny and we'll answer your questions and kind of try to get back with to you guys and stuff like that so that's going to be a lot of fun we're excited if you want to be a part of that and you have questions send them to crime in sports at gmail.com absolutely and uh also you can head over to shut up and give me murder where you can find our email address crime and sports at gmail.com you can also find merchandise damn it t-shirts and mugs and leggings, ladies, on guys, whoever. Leggings for everybody.

Leggings all around. Also, tickets to live shows, like we said, tonight, Boston, or maybe yesterday if you listened to it on Friday, or last week. Who knows? Six months ago. I don't know when you're listening to this. I hope you're listening right now. You're in Boston. December 13, 2018, we're talking about here. We're in Boston.

We are in Chicago on Friday. Detroit on Saturday, Silver Spring, Maryland on Sunday. And then I drop dead in an airport on Monday. And then I pray for it to crash on the way back. That's how it happens. And then so get your tickets there also, January 25th in Seattle and February 21st in West Palm Beach, Florida at the Improv down there. It's a sweet club, so enjoy it. It's a gorgeous club. Great place to watch a show.

Come out and see us there. If that's not enough for you, you can follow us on social media. You can. If you want to hang out with us there. We are at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Murder on Instagram, and Small Town Pod on Facebook. Yes, there are three different ones because this world sucks. That's fine fine if you want

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And Jimmy, tell me the people we're blown away by this week. Hit me with it now. This week's executive producers are Jennifer Gross, Catherine Polus, Anastasia Middleton, Laura Blakeslee times two she donated twice and something was going on with her this week i don't remember what but oh you know what never mind i think she's gonna make it to the show she was going back and forth okay about going to a

show uh hope to see you there definitely she's gonna make it to a show i don't know if she did or not we'll see come see us damn it thank you margie kunze again. Thank you so much. Mary Noe. Matt Kleeman. Lonnie. No. Lonnie Halt. She donated twice also. Wow. Thank you.

Craig Ventura. He's back. Thanks, Craig. Thanks, Craig. Michelle Hayes. Shannon Russell. And Christopher Dobransky. Dobransky.

That's right. Thank you guys so, so much. Thank you guys. You guys are awesome. Regina Kuda. Already. Right out of the gate. Regina Kuda-Jaroff. There you go. Kuda-ajaroff. There you go.

Kudajaroff. All right. That's not bad. Martina Liwalanga. Oh, she's the best. Thanks, Martina. Ashley Vio. Brendan Ables.

Jesse Hartman. Jordan Nevarez. Sarah Reichert. Valerie Anderson. Nicholas Sanders. Carissa Wilson. Temri Iverson. Nicole Renard.

Georgiana Whitley. Whitard, Georgiana Whitley. Whitley? Georgiana Whitley. Whitley? Yep. Martina Kunkel, Heath Belowich. No. Deloach.

That's it. Ah, Deloach. It's not a B. It's a D. Deloach. Ah. Cindy Oaks, Heather Cotton, Stephen Rood, Cody Neuenfeld, Kat Powell, and Lauren Demerath. Thank you, ladies. Thank you, guys. Pytila's OK Welding. It's just OK.

It's not great, but it's fine. They're decent. They're getting through it. You need something to stay on, it'll stay. They're learning. Nothing fancy, but it'll stay. Andrea Samples, Justin Miller, Tyler Atkinson, Shalima Altos, Kelly Latta, Blaze Patterson. He donated twice.

Thank you, Blaze. That's a cowboy name. Thank you. That's a damn good name. Taylor Catawalt, Catwalliter, Gary Howard, Melissa Schmaltz, 30 Roses. I don't know what that is. Google it. Catherine Beal, Tanya Howard.

No, Tanya Hayden. Under the Sea Fabrics, Jordan Bennett. what that is google it uh katherine beal tonya tonya howard no tonya hayden uh under the sea fabrics jordan jordan bennett uh the lino leaks lino lakes is it lino is it lino what is it it's definitely lino it's absolutely there's one thing in the world i know that's hilarious sorry matt dietrich i didn't mean to step on your name kyle juarez uh lillian lillian frank uh jen stevens bryant tool rosanna wagner cody beretta uh janae compton uh shit i wrote these really small uh charlene rambler john starks i don't think it's the same john starks yeah i want it to be the same so do i love john starks renee uhort-given son of a bitch right there. Preston Letterman. Shauna with no last name.

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Captain Surly. Jessica Seidel. Lauren Odom. Taryn McNee. Janice Hill, Joey Leschnak, Nicole Vaughn, Nikhil, Neil Threats, Tara Bendick, Don Hanson, Jaina Dickens, Jaina Wellhouse. How do we have two Jainas? That was impressive. Thank you, Jaina Society., Jaina Wellhouse. How do we have two Jainas? That was impressive. Thank you, Jaina Society.

Donating right next to each other. Joshua Conley, Tristan Stevenson, Simon Oxley, Melissa Sewell, Stephen McTeague, Annette Wright, Leanne Edwards, Brendan Healy, Jared Dobbs, Johanna Rosas. And then Johanna Rosas. Johanna Rosas. Anyway. And then this is my favorite. Johanna. Yeah, it is Johanna Rosas. I knew a girl named Johanna Rosas. Johanna Rosas. Anyway. And then, this is my favorite. Johanna. Yeah, it is Johanna Rosas.

I knew a girl named Johanna once. And then, Javon Sanga, who is Manja's son. Hey! He donates with his dad. That's amazing. He took two pounds out of his own money and gave to his dad and told him, give this to those nice boys in America. That's incredible.

Thank you, Sanja or sanga family i don't thank you man he told me that we pronounce it wrong every time we always say sanja yeah so we're probably wrong his family's fucking amazing you guys rock we really thank you so much you guys you're fantastic thank you so much everybody we really cannot say and stress how how thankful we are for everything you guys do for us thank you from awards to accolades to things you say about us on social media to every dime that you send the fact that we could buy a new computer without you know not being able to pay our rent right to uh to keep our show going to record so thank you guys changed our lives and given us amazing meaning and

something to do and we really love doing it is and what if they wanted to tell you all about the meaning you've given them, Jimmy? How can they get a hold of you to do that? You can find me at WismanSucks, W-H-I-S-M-A-N, sucks on Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat. And truly, it's really, I'm just, I'm really thankful for what you guys do for us. So thank you. What about you? You can find me at JimmyPIsFunny, or just copy and paste my last name from the show

description. Look for me that way. You can do that, and you won't be able to spell it. So it's easier like that. Trust me. Trust me. Guys, come out to live shows. We tell you our live shows are awesome.

We have a lot of fun. We put a lot into them and we make sure that you're going to walk out of there in pain from laughter. That's our goal. Let's have whiskey. Yeah. And also whiskey and weed and whatever else comes up. I'll bring James Plenty up.

Oh, please. It's going to be a good time. We're going to have so much damn fun, everybody. And until next week, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max, starting

April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinks Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts.