Small Town Murder - Just My Imagination - Howland Township, Ohio

Episode Date: May 14, 2026

This week, in Howland Township, Ohio, a popular local man is brutally murdered in his own home, leading the investigation to his ex-wife, who he was still living & sleeping with. Detectives really want to talk to his wife's new, MUCH younger boyfriend, who just got out of prison. Luckily, there is a treasure trove of letters, and audio recordings that show a clear murder plan forming. But was that all a fantasy, and the real killers are actually ex-felons that the victim would hire to work for him?? A crazy tale of betrayal, and greed!!   Along the way, we find out that people want to go to a county fair to look at carcasses, that there is no reason to have 52 credit cards, and that when you're in prison, you should assume that all of your letters could eventually be evidence!!   New episodes, every Wednesday & Friday nights!! Check us out on VIDEO Wednesday and Friday evenings on Netflix! www.netflix.com/smalltownmurder Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions!   Follow us on... instagram.com/smalltownmurder facebook.com/smalltownpod   Also, check out James & Jimmie's other shows, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts!!

This week in Howland Township, Ohio, a popular local businessman is brutally murdered in his own home, leading detectives to his estranged wife, whom he still lives with, several of her boyfriends, and a treasure trove of letters. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yeah, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petro Gallo. I'm here with my co-host.

I'm Jimmy Wiseman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. today on another crazy, wild, insane, just nutty addition of small town murder as always. And of course, bloody you can add to that too. Definitely crazy stuff today, as usual. We will get to all that and more. Before we do, head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for live shows, everybody.

Also, merchandise. Everything there you could possibly want. But tickets for live shows, I believe that Royal Oak is sold out by now. Yeah. So, yeah, the Buffalo Royal Oak, they're sold out. So next tickets available after the summer in September, September 18th, Milwaukee, September 19th, Minneapolis, then October 3rd in Dallas, October 16th, San Jose, October 17th, Sacramento, November 13th, Terrytown, November 14th, Boston. So that is the schedule. Get your tickets right now for those. Shut up and give me murder.com. Make sure to listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which you do not have to like sports to like. Trust us.

You have to like us making fun of a guy who committed criminal acts when they absolutely didn't have to. That's fun. We can do that, but you don't have to like sports and your stupid opinions because who doesn't like to laugh at other people's reviews. That's the funniest thing in the world. So can't wait for that. Then get yourself Patreon. My goodness, get that Patreon. Patreon.

Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of the bonus material. Yes. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get every damn. thing we put out, including as soon as you subscribe, hundreds of back bonus episodes, almost 400 of them as soon as you subscribe. Then you get new ones every other week, one crime and sports, one small town murder, and you get them all this week, which you're going to get. This is a fun one.

For crime and sports, we're going to talk about the power team. Do you remember those guys that were like on the Christian channel and they would like rip phone books and like bend things and be like, I love Jesus after they did it? You don't remember those guys? they had like all this crazy power stunts that they would do. Jack, steroided up lunatic. Jesus did it.

But that's what they go, oh, thank you, Jesus. After they would like lift a giant thing, and then afterwards, of course, it all fell apart. And there's some scandal involved because, obviously. It was a grift. It was a lie?

Well, I mean, at the time, who knows, but it turned into something weird. And then for small town murder, it's internet salad time, everybody. Here we go. Everything that's going on in the world today, that doesn't have anything to do with politics, because we feel like you probably get enough of that

everywhere else in your life. So we'll make fun of everything else. So patreon.com slash crime in sports is how you do that. And like I said, with that, you also get everything we put out. Crime and Sports, small-town murder, your stupid opinions, add-free with your Patreon as well. All ad-free.

Can't beat that. And you get a shout-out at the end of the show. Jimmy will mispronounce your name while wanting so desperately to get it correct. So do that. And come hang out with us, Patreon.com slash crime in sports. That said, disclaimer time. Hey, everybody.

It's a comedy show. Surprise. Yeah. It's a comedy show. We're comedians. We are going to make jokes. And people are going to die because it's called small town murder. So it'd be really weird if nothing else.

You know, if everybody was fine at the end of it. So that's how you do? And you go, well, how does that work? How do you make jokes when people are dead? Well, very easily, I think, honestly. You don't just don't be a jackass. And it's pretty easy. What we do is we don't make.

fun of the victims or the victim's family. Why is that, James? Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's all it is. There's plenty of other stuff to make fun of around it. Think about it. Somebody putting together a big murder plot and going, I think I can pull this off. That's pretty funny. We're going to make fun of that, you know? So that said, yes, it's crazy stuff. And yeah, we got to get into this here. So that said, I think it's time, everybody. What do you say here? I think it's time to clear the lungs. Arms to the sky, everybody.

And let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah. Let's do it. We are going to Howland Township, Ohio this week.

Howland. Howland Township, H-O-L-A-N-D. Howland, how did this land happen? Yeah, yeah. Howland Township, Ohio. It's in northern Ohio. About an hour and 15 to Cleveland, about an hour of. and 25 to Pittsburgh.

Fair. I feel like we've passed this driving from Pittsburgh to Cleveland for shows. One of those places you go through. It's about an hour 52, Bel Air, Ohio, our last Ohio episode, episode 658, the Dark Prince of Belmont County. Remember that? We did that for a virtual live show, too, and that was crazy stuff here. That guy was, wow. Too much.

That was a lot. That was a whole lot of craziness there. So there's that. This is in Trumbull County, T-R-U-M-B-U-L-L. L. L. County. Area code, not how you expected that one, huh? No. Exactly. So I spelled it because I'm like, it's a weird spelling. Area code 234 and 330 as well here. Now, a little bit of history. This is the only township in the state, which in Ohio, there are towns that share the same name. What? They didn't like go through. You figure like early days of the post office, they would have went through and they went, okay. This is before zip codes. Is there two Clevelands?

We can't, not two Clevelands, but there's a cup, two of this and two of that. You'd think somebody would have said, let's purge all of the names that are doubles. And whoever had it first gets to keep it. So it's wild. The town is named for the Howland family, who are the original settlers of the township. They were pilgrims that were aboard the Mayflower. Wow. They are very original, just got here, you know.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The first ones? First ones. Now, Joseph Howland purchased the township from the Connecticut Land Company in 1795, and then the township was organized in 1812. There was a sawmill by 1814, a grist mill by 1815. We're gristing and saw it. Now we got wood and grist.

Now we're ready to go here. Now we're out of town. In 1830, Howland Springs began operation as a health spa. Oh. And operated as a health spa until the township, in the township, until it burned down in 1882. The spa burned down? I believe, yes, the spring spa thing burned down. Which you think, I don't know how you burn down a spring.

That would be impossible. Yeah, how you burn down a spa. There's water and shit. And you could burn down the shit around it, but put another structure and it's still a springs. I don't get it. So anyway, reviews of this town, let's find out what other people think of this town, because maybe we've passed through it. but if we did, we don't remember.

It's possible. What are you going to do? It has 3.8 stars on niche. So questionable for a Chinese restaurant, put it that way. Not good. Not good. Here is four stars. Howland Township is a clean, safe, family-friendly community that offers a wide range of restaurants and community functions.

Sure. So they got that. That seems like a five-star. I don't know why he only gave it four. Wide range, yeah. Not quite wide enough, apparently. Four stars, again. Howland Township is a question.

quiet township with great schools and low crime. Yeah. It's an amazing place to raise kids and grow a family. This picture you watering them. Oh, look at little Johnny. He's getting up to my knee now. Yeah, I've got to prune him. He's getting a little too long.

They go faster when you do. Yeah, it's what I mean. Well, they grow wider that way. Yeah, you get more robust. Sort of bulk up. Yeah. So there's that. It's mostly older people and young parents with school-aged children,

which is a very odd mixture. Just like 25-year-olds with little kids and 75-year-olds that are retired there. What an odd thing. Real estate's a little on the high side, but so very worth it. Real estate is not on the high side, by the way, as we'll find out. Here is two stars. There's very few career growth opportunities, and the city is, quote, very dangerous. City.

The city, which it's not, is very dangerous. We'll talk about how dangerous it is when we get to crime rate. It's insanely low. Like this person is out of their minds. I don't know. This is the type of person that like hears something happened one time and then they think dangerous. Can't walk the streets. Here's one star.

This is fun. Issues with four with off road four wheelers and ATVs, dirt bikes, backyard, one acre of the yard. One acre of yard. The yard is literally a dirt track. Houses here are. very close. Noise is a big issue. Very old, excessively, not even spelled close to what excessively is, excessively loud.

There's no punctuation here, by the way. None. This is one paragraph. This goes on constantly in this township, plus many other zoning issues that are never addressed as this same residence. Others throughout our township also cause issues with off-road. By the way, they've spelled road twice and the same way wrong both times. R-O-E-D, road. R-O-E-D?

R-O-E-D. Twice. That's not even a word. Nope, that is not a mistake. And the E isn't close enough to the A to make a mistype either. That's how they think road is spelled. That's how you think, yep. You should see how excessively is spelled.

Yikes. Cause issues with off-road vehicles and other parts of the township and zoning issues that have been violated, but nothing done about them. They was already done before zoning was informed. Now the rest of the, whoa, neighbors, that is some way to. N-I-E-B-H-E-R-S, neighbors. N-I-E. N-E-H-H-H-H-H-E-Rs have to deal with such a big nuisance, not even close, and you don't even have to ask, for neighbors. This person's complaining about one particular neighbor that has a dirt track on their acre that their kids ride dirt bikes on, and they're very upset about it.

They do not like it. Not like it at all. People in this town, 18,093. That's kind of like the whole little area here. Good size, yeah. It's a good-sized town. 51% women, 49% men. So a few more ladies in that town.

Median age here's about five years over the national average. It's 43.9. So the retirement people are weighing the younger people, the other direction. About 49% married, so very close to the average. A lot of everything here is kind of average. This seems like your average Midwestern American small town. It's got all the, you know, single with children, married, all these things are right on the average deal.

Race in this town, not quite average, on 91.3% white, 2.5% black, 1.5% Asian, 1% Hispanic, 1.5% Native American, which is high. You see that in like New Mexico

or Utah, places like that, but I wasn't aware there was a lot of Native Americans in Ohio at this point in time, I guess there is. No, I don't know I can't even imagine why. No. Religion in this town, It's 48% religious, 50% is the national average. And it's really a mixed bag.

Everything's kind of 10% this, 11% that. Catholic is the number one, but it's like 14% to 13% or something. It's not a big deal. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the Midwest. Ohio River Valley. The Ohio River Valley. Cost of living here, 100 being regular average. Here, it's 90.

So not bad. Median household income, little above the national average, $73,6001,000, so about $5,000 over the national average. Very average. Median home cost, $181,500 bucks. It's not so bad. There's a one in front of this. And this person said, real estate's outrageous.

Outrageous. Outrageous. So if we've convinced you, you know what? You'd like to live in a Midwestern, small, boring town. We have for you. The Howland Township, Ohio, Real Estate Report. Okay, your average two-bedroom rental here is $790, which is... Very affordable.

$500 less than the national average. Extremely affordable. That's like 19 or, you know, 2003 prices. That's not bad. Here is house number one, four-bedroom, two-bath, 1,344 square feet. It's a brick square. It's just like a big brick block. I only got four bedrooms out of that.

It's impressive. You got to squeeze. I had a 1,400 square foot house with four bedrooms. Did you? They're pretty small. Yeah. They're carded out pretty small. Yeah, they're not.

Like one of them was a good, two of them were a good size and two of them were pretty small. Two of them you could have combined and made a third, basically. So, yeah, this is brick. It doesn't look that great. It looks a little tad bit run down. Not terrific. Built in 1925, so it's old, close to a lot of other houses. 99,900 bucks, though.

Not that. It's livable. The inside isn't torn. into pieces. It's a livable house with four bedrooms for $100,000. 2001 prices. That's not bad. No. Here is a four bedroom two bath, 2,052 square feet.

It's done a little bit more recently on the inside than the other one, but you got the gray laminate floors and it's, you know, they redid in the gray cabinets. They redid everything very neutral to make it sell. A little two-story house built in 1918. So an old house again,

$129,900 for that. Again, pretty cheap. They just had a $5,000 reduction on that one too. And it's on sale. And it's on sale. Next up, four-bedroom, five bath.

Tea bowl for each and every beehole right here. That's a lot. 5,086 square feet. They like the number five. It's beautiful. It's a big, like, the nice bricks and inside is very well done.

It's gorgeous. Built in 2000. Oh, and new too. Yeah, half an acre. 0.53 acres, you know, leafy around it. Looks like it's in a nice neighborhood. Very nice. 529,900 bucks for that.

And there's a five in the number. Look at that. Instead of a million in the number for 5,000 square feet. Ohio, putting the mid in Midwest. Yeah, putting the mid-priced in Midwest. This had a $20,000 price cut recently, too. Yeah. Okay.

Things to do here. Let's find out what we have to do here. Okay. Number one, the Trumbull County Fair. which is right next door and worn, you know, 10 minutes away, not even. So looking up this fair and, man, it's a lot of, a lot of, uh, Midwest shit. Yeah.

A lot of like livestock shit. Yeah, farming shit. I see a carcass steer way in, a carcass. Carcass hog weigh in. Does that mean a dead? Carcass is a dead animal, right? Yeah, that's usually a body. That's a, why are we weighing bodies?

I don't know, but I don't know if there's a autopsy practice course after that or what. I thought the idea of the idea. the fair was show us your prize-winning animal that breathes. Yeah, it's at least alive. Yeah. If we put food in front of it, it should react. That's how it gets a ribbon. Then there's the equine station judging.

Okay, so there's all of that. Carcass goat weigh in, carcass lamb way in. I don't know why they're playing your carcasses. You aren't to slaughter your best one and bring it down? I guess I'll eat the lamb. I mean, and the hog and the steer, I suppose. but not the horse. So there's judging of horses.

There's a 4-H Royal Court, the 4-H fashion review. Fashion. Fashion review, apparently. The Junior Fair Equine English show. What the fuck is that? I don't know what that is. What's going on yet?

We have the Jay Bird, who's a band playing, and Jim Hine is also playing that night. Jim Hine. Jim Hine. There's also a patriotic costume contest. Oh, boy. There's that. The Thunder Creek Band will be there.

Yeah? Shit, yeah. The Thunder Creek Band. Then there'll be tractor poles. Here we go. Oh, boy. Stephen Seramuga acoustic will be there. Oh, shit.

Playing all the tunes you know in love. Everybody loves them. I was real into it a minute ago. It was all motorsport. There's also a cow milking contest that takes place in the milking parlor, which sounds disgusting. They have a bunch of those in Reno, and it's nasty. You don't want to go to the milking parlors. Diane and Terry McAve.

You should say happy or super up there somewhere. Something. Diane and Terry McCabe will be playing. Oh, yeah. I don't know what they do, but old Diane and Terry will get together. There is a stick horse costume class. I don't know. A junior fair cheese auction.

Oh, boy. These all sound like Madlives. This is ridiculous. Demolition Derby. There we go. That's fun. Release large animals is one of the scheduled things. Just into the crowd.

It's just going to open the steppeils. People running. No. Trampling going on everywhere. Old ladies underfoot. Then there's release equine and small animals, which that's horses. Yeah. releasing horses. That's crazy.

So, yeah, there's all of that. We're just going to cut them loose. Cut them loose. Let them go, boys. Get them out of here. Then there is also the Community Park Sunday Summer Music Concert series. Now we're talking. In Howland Township. We got, let's see, this is starting in May here.

May 31st, the Richie Wilkins Trio will be there. Oh. Three guys named Richie Wilkins. Awesome. June 7th. Wilkins. Well, Richie Wilkins.

You know, Richie Wilson. No, no, no. Not the guy who edits this show, Richard, Richie Wilson. No,

we're talking about Richie Wilkins. Which could be one of Richie's alter egos. We don't know. We don't know what he does when he's not editing

the show. We know he owns a restaurant and he's pretty busy as a family, but still, you never know. That'll not be this shit. No.

June 7th, Strums and drums will be there. Yeah. June 21st, justified. Okay, I thought this was

the concert series, meaning there are concerts of... These are technically concerts. No, no, no. Ludacris won't be here, unfortunately. There's no national acts. No. Well, maybe. Let me go through more.

July 5th, Erie height brass ensemble. Is that one of your favorites? I know you got a poster of them up in your garage and, you know... I think they were touring this year. I thought they were off. Now, this sounds fun. July 19th, the drunken iguanas will be there. Nice.

Great. August 9th, speed limit. August 14th, the Howland High School Band will be there. Jimmy, this is all top-notch entertainment. So annoying. August 30th, mystery guests. Oh. I don't know if that's the name of the band or we really don't know if they just haven't booked them yet.

Not sure. TBA. Now, crime rate in this town. That's it. That's the whole summer series. It's all you get. They're not even every week. The mystery is the headliner.

That's it. closing out the summer, babe. That's how it's happening. It's usually the guy that sells the tickets for Christ's sake. Labor Day the weekend after. That's it. It's all over. Now, crime rate, like I said, very dangerous.

Remember, terrifying, according to some reviewer here. Property crime, about one-third of the national average. Two-thirds, whoa. Under. Yeah. Terrifying. Then violent crime, murder-rape robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one-quarter of the national average.

This is like the safest town we've ever heard of. Extremely safe. I looked up their stats. Last year, they had zero murders here. They're doing pretty well as far as safety goes. And this person, dangerous, won't even leave the house. Okay. That said, let's talk about some murder, shall we?

Here we go. Let's get into this here. All right. Let's start out in 2001 and talk about some people here. Let's talk about a guy with a very fun name. Robert Fingerhut. Really? Like the magazine?

Yep, finger hut. That's it. Like the magazine. Like the catalog. Did you ever have finger hut in your house? I've seen it. Not in my house, no, but I've seen it. Oh, my mom, what did it?

My mom treated finger hut like I treat Facebook marketplace. I just browse. Just browse, yeah, yeah. It showed up to our house all the time. We never bought a single fucking thing from them. I saw it. You'd see it at like a dentist's office or something. I never knew what the fuck it.

What do they have? What is that? It's just a catalog? A shit for Sam. like, kind of like a land mall for the ground. Land magazine mall. Problem is we have stores on the ground.

So it's like, but they have like housewares and shit or like clothes or. Yeah, they had all kinds of stuff in there. It was like like sharp or kind of. It's kind of like the quality of Brookstone. Say again?

Like Brookstone or Sharper Image or like weird shit. No, no, no. You know, like an air purifier. The fire that makes no noise. Okay. Okay, so a Varan— Okay, I get what you're saying. It's like a department store, but it's just a catalog.

It's Amazon with a catalog. Yeah, but I don't know a soul that ever bought anything from him. No. I don't know when it— It may still be— This guy may have been a part of it. Maybe. Well, he wasn't.

I think we know. No. No. I don't know what Finger Hut, man. He's part of the Florida Finger Huts. It's a different branch of the Finger Hut. Yeah. Yeah, you know, you're talking about the Newport Beach Finger Huts.

a different group. Now, Robert Fingerhut was born in 1945, or 40, yeah, 45. He grows up as two graduate degrees, by the way. Wow. Has a master's in journalism. Yeah. And a master's in criminal justice studies. Oh.

So he'd be a great crime reporter. I mean, that would be, Christ, he could break down the court shit for you. Like, he'd be a perfect crime recorder. By the way, reporter. By the way, he does not do that at all. He does none of these things. He owns Greyhound bus stations and like coffee shops and shit. Nothing to do with journalism or criminal justice.

But he found a place that has the most criminals. Yeah. Imagine going to school for that long to get master's degrees and not using them at all. Just using your finger hot money to buy Greyhounds. Not even like in the like adjacent. Yeah, not even like an adjacent industry. No. Doesn't make any sense at all.

So he's got a son named Michael that we'll talk about, too, who he has younger here. Two Greyhound Terminal, two Greyhound Bus terminals later on. One in Warren, Ohio, one in Youngstown, Ohio. We'll figure that out later. That's when they moved to Ohio, because right now he's in Florida. He is known as kind of a gatherer of lost puppies. He's kind of that kind of guy. Yeah.

Treated people very well. Like, he only hired ex-cons to drive his buses. Yeah. Which says that that's nice, but then you're also putting a group of people in a metal box with a felon for God knows how many hours. And you're giving a man control of a $200,000 vehicle that. That's true. That too. That shit may go to Mexico and never come back or somewhere else.

Somewhere else. They're just taking apart in Cleveland somewhere. You never know. But this is who he hires. He would also give destitute prisoners a free Greyhound ticket so they could go visit family, too. When people would get out of prison, they know they could go to Robert Fingerhut for a free bus ticket to see family. God, it sounds like an alias. That's so crazy.

Yeah, Robert Fingerhut. It sounds like a name like Austin Powers would make up. Like, I'm a Robert Fingerhut. This is my wife, Oprah. Oprah Finger Hut. It's really what it sounds like. So his father, Michael said about his father that he really just liked helping people. Yeah.

Didn't, wouldn't judge anybody before they fucked him over, basically. That's nice. He said he was probably the least prejudiced person on earth. He just gave everybody, whether you could just get out of prison or you could, you know, come from, you know, the governor's office. He's going to treat you the same way and give you the same amount of respect type of thing. So let's find out how we got to Ohio. All right. Well, he had been married earlier and divorced, and that's where the son Michael came from. But in 1980, he met a new woman, Robert Fingerhut. It's time for the Finger Hut to keep on walking,

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So he meets a new woman Donna Marie Roberts. She's born May 22nd, 1944, about a year older than him. Sure. So they're both in their mid-30s at this point. It's a prime time for a second marriage for everybody. Certainly, yeah. She's also divorced a couple of times, as we'll talk about. She was from Youngstown, Ohio, originally.

Sure. In this area, she graduated Austin Town Fitch High School in Ohio. Jesus. She's a self-described business woman, put it that way. She's recently divorced when they met. They met in 1980, and she had gotten divorced earlier in 1980. Right. And she meets Robert.

Now, a little bit of her history. In 1966, she was 22 years old, and she married her first husband, William Raymond, and they moved down to Miami together, Florida, not Ohio. Yeah. She got to say that in Ohio. Yeah. You might think we're talking about there. So they had a son in 1969, apparently also named Michael.

Huh. So both Robert and Donnie. I both have sons named Michael or around the same age from what I get here. That marriage didn't last very long and they divorced in 1971. So she's, you know, in her 20s, newly divorced, whatever. In 1972, she doesn't waste a lot of time. Grass does not grow under her fucking diaphragm. We'll put it that way.

She dives right back in here. I tried to think of a 1971 form of birth control and I'm like diaphragm. They loved a diaphragm back then. That was a hot shit. for him. So she in 1972 remarries, or marries another guy here. She gets remarried but to a different guy to Burton Gelfand.

Yikes. Burton Gelfand. Now, this marriage will last until 1980 when she meets Mr. Fingerhut there. Sure. So somewhere in from 72 to 80, she converted to Judaism. I don't know when that. Oh. Yeah. I think Burton Gelfand is probably Jewish.

Possibly, yeah. Especially she met him in Miami. It's, it all lines up. Burton Gelfand. So I think that's possibly it. So she converted to Judaism. She works as a plastic surgeon's assistant in North Miami Beach for a long time. What are they?

Yeah. From the 70s to the 90s. Help me jam this suction rod up this lady's thigh. Yeah, you got hand me this. You got a hand tools, yeah. Yeah, there's a whole, I mean, they usually have multiple assistance during a surgery. But she's not, she's not medical. But learned it?

No. She has no master's degrees. Okay. In anything. But, yeah, she worked as a plastic surgeon's assistant. Like I said, not sure exactly what that entails. That might be sterilizing. I don't know what she does.

She could be just doing paperwork. No clue, exactly. Which sounds like a decent job anyway. Sure. Yeah. Easy. Better pays well. Very Miami also.

Oh, boy. So 1980, she meets Robert Fingerhunt. Yeah. And it's the Donna Fingerhut connection here. Should they get together? They get married within a year of meeting. She's quick, man. She marries you, she meets you.

It's over. They bought a house in the Miami Gardens area in 1983. Mm-hmm. Doing that. So marriage seems to be going well. Yeah? So well that in 1985, they decide to get divorced. Oh.

Okay. But, and I say that very specifically, so well that they decide to get divorced, they don't break up. This has nothing to do with their marriage whatsoever. I mean, yeah, this is crazy. I mean, because, yeah, divorced kind of is everything about your marriage.

Yeah, but they, as far as, if they didn't have that paperwork, you'd never know anything. Nothing changes. They don't move out from each other's house. They don't, everything's exactly the same, but on paper they're divorced.

That's the way they do it. Now, this is some sort of, weird financial move. I don't know if Robert had like lawsuit issues possibly or something of that nature because that seems to be the reason why they did this because the divorce was a financial maneuver strictly. Oh. Yeah, they get divorced and then he wanted to move assets around in case he got sued or

something like that. So basically he ends up putting all of his business assets and shit in her name. Everything houses, everything they're going to have is going to be in her name from now on. And they're divorced. So you can't touch it. You sue him. You can't get to her, basically. Or you can't get to him, essentially.

Right. So that's how this goes. But they still live together. They're still a happy couple. They do everything together. They present themselves in public as a married couple. He calls her my wife. She calls him my husband.

I mean, it's just a paperwork thing, which is really weird. You know, slept in the same bed, all of that. Yeah, it's weird. And one person said most people who dealt with Roberts, with Roberts and Fingerhut assumed that they were married. Her last name is Roberts and his name is Robert. His first name is Robert. That's so confusing. Okay.

So they end up selling the Florida place and went to Richmond, Virginia in about 1992. Interesting, yeah. They spend about a year in Virginia, then in 1990. they move up to Youngstown, Ohio, you know, Donna's hometown. They decide to go from Miami to Youngstown, Ohio. Jesus. Which is a real specific move.

You have to hate that heat to go to do that. And yourself. And yourself. Well, that's a lateral move as far as pain goes. Youngstown is brutal. It's brutal, but I could not live in Miami. I would last three days there before I would strangle somebody because I was so fucking hot.

I can't take it. that fucking... Youngstown is just fucking hideous. 97 with 98% humidity and you're in Florida. Fuck that. Yeah, I guess. There's nothing great about rural Ohio, though. Rural Ohio is fucking bleak.

We've driven through it. All there is is that grandpa's cheese place that we stopped at. That's about it. Boy, the bathroom in there is a sight to behold. Let me tell you something. My God. Exactly what you would imagine a roadside cheese shop. Cheese distribution shop.

It smelled like. Like everyone's been in the car a long time, then stopped and had too much cheese, essentially. And sauce. There's meats, too. Oh, there's all sorts of weird shit there. It's fucking crazy. So, 1994, they purchase a house in Howland Township on Fonderlack Drive. Technically, Donna purchases the house because it's in her name, but it's their house.

But like everything else, all the assets are in her name. Now, they have these businesses, by the way. They have Greyhound terminals and Warren and Younger. Town in Donna's name. They have an Avis rental car franchise. Oh. At the Youngstown Warren Regional Airport. At the airport.

Yeah. And that sounds like a big one there, the Youngstown Warren Regional Airport. Lots of big flights going in there, boy. That's also in Donna's name. And inside the Youngstown bus station, these are the most depressing locations ever. Two Greyhound terminals, a car rental joint in a tiny rural. fucking municipal airport. Shithole.

Yeah. And a restaurant inside a shitty town's bus station. God's what they run. The restaurant inside the bus station was called

just the ticket. That's what they had here. So all of this stuff is what they own and this is all in Donna's name. Robert runs it all though. Donna does like the bookkeeping and stuff.

Yeah. Paperwork, that kind of thing. In addition to that, he also has, even though they're not married, even his life insurance policies are in her name. For sure. She's the beneficiary.

He has two policies with a combined $550,000 of money. And sole beneficiary is Donna for both of these. That's in the late 90s. That comes up. Now, he's at the Greyhound Terminal all the time. Which, he owns several businesses. I would think you'd have to probably spend some time there. Yeah.

Yeah. He was the one who was, you know, worked all the long, days there and shit like that. She'd do paperwork and payroll and things, but he did all of that. But they were very comfortable. They made good money. Yeah. Which is, there's no sadder place on earth than a Greyhound station. Not really, no. Nobody there would be traveling with that means if they could afford any other way to do it. This is, it's misery. It's misery. Yeah. And we've learned from your stupid opinions now that it's not even affordable. It's not even like a discount ticket. It's it's as expensive or more than flying.

So many people say in the end, they're like, I don't know why I didn't just fly because at the end, it cost me the same amount of money, but this took four days and they left me on the side of the road for seven hours

at the middle of the night. I paid $800 to go from Youngstown to Denver. You did what? In 10 days. That's horrible. Slept on several floors. Yeah. Shit and Greyhound station,

bus stations were a week and a half. You could have just flowed and two and a half hours. It's unbelievable. So Donna, in this relationship, Donna likes to spend money as well. Oh. Robert's a little more frugal,

but Donna likes to spend, she likes to flaunt a little bit. Okay. She, in her own words, says she has 52 charge cards. What? 52 credit cards. I don't even know how many,

I don't even know there was that many credit card companies. How the hell do you get that many credit cards? I guess you can have more than one with each one. But yeah, but still, like different shitty banks, different interest rates. It wouldn't make sense to have 52 of them. Or even more so, like, I have one, I have two cards and both of them have a crazy limit that I'll never, ever, ever, ever spend. Yeah, two cards. How many, how many? What's the limit?

You know what I mean? At five, and how many? 52. 52 cards. 52 cards. What do you have a limit of 600 bucks on each card? I have two credit cards. One, that is, we both use for airline shit.

And it's absurd what they keep doing with that. It's so silly. But, you know, we keep that and, you know, you need a credit card on the road and hotels and all that and then I have like a backup credit card that I never use. That's what I have, basically. In case there's some problem with the other one. That's exactly what I use. It wouldn't fucking read or won't read my American Express.

Something like that or even, who the hell knows, some weird glitch in some shit? I don't know. I'm not getting turned away. Here's my other card. Thank God I've got a bank one and then I've got the American Express. And it's because banks fail and they have done that to me. Yeah, that happens, as we remember when they shut down your account. They got to have that Delta AMX.

I had actual money. Well, they didn't have any money, but. You could charge whatever you needed, though. That's the good part. So she would basically, she wanted like large sums of money to do things all the time. Like there's a day that we're going to talk about here where, he refused, Robert refused to give Donna $3,000. And she got real mad at him.

And somebody who was nearby said that she gave him, quote, the dirtiest look like it can kill a person. That's what they said. She was so mad that he wouldn't give her three grand? Three grand just to go fuck around with here. Yeah. They said that she would get, she was so mad she was shaky and trembling. That's how mad she got. Like, you got to be doing really well, huh?

52 charge cards? I don't know how you wouldn't. How the hell would you get that many issue to you? And anybody can get a shit little charge cards, right? Can you? I don't know. When I was poor, I just didn't try to get charge cards because I was like, why would they give me one?

I can't afford that. They also have businesses, and you can make charge cards with no fucking... From the business, too. You can have a time of company cards, personal cards. Nobody signed on it. It's just the fucking company. Yeah, totally.

Now, at this time to late 90s, Robert's son Michael lives down in Florida. He's down there, so he's not around either. We'll get to him later. So during this time, 2001-ish, Robert starts cracking down on her spending. Yeah. Starts doing this. Now, she later on in her own writing, which, oh boy, we will get to her writing,

she is quite the prolific writer over here. Yeah? Oh, Stephen King's got nothing on her. We got a Shakespeare? Yeah, for incriminating writings, yes. Imagine if Stephen King wrote as much as he did, but detailing crimes he was going to commit. That would be equivalent. She said that Robert was now giving her $100 a week for everything.

That's her allowance. Exactly. And he took away her charge cards, she said, saying these are for emergencies only. Uh-huh. And so she's now, instead of $52 charge card, she's got $100 a week that she can discretion. used for discretionary spending. That's much less. Much less. She said that she was humiliated. She said, I'm not

used to living like this. I'm used to having plenty of cash for whatever I want, buying everything I want. Yeah. And they're in their 50s. He's probably thinking about retirement someday. How am I going to do this forever? Yeah. Yeah, retirement. We need to do whatever. I'm not sure.

Now, at the same time, you might say, well, who's she telling all this to? I'm not used to living like this, blah, blah. Well, one of the people she's telling is her boyfriend. Oh, my. Who is 28 years younger than her. By the way, did I mention that part? Because that's important.

Nice. 28 years? Yeah, and he's banging her because he thinks he's got a hot rich chick on his hands. Oh, yeah. Then she tells him, I get $100 a week. A hundred. I make more than that. Well, not where he is in 2001 because he's in prison in 2001.

So he's making like four cents a day probably in there. She's got a. boyfriend who's in prison? A 28-year-old younger guy who's in prison. Now, when they got together, he wasn't in prison, but he ended up going to prison while they were together here. And that's not her only boyfriend, mind you. What?

Several other boyfriends. Yeah, she's quite a busy lady, this Donna. My God. Now, Nathaniel Jackson is her boyfriend, Nate Jackson. And he, like I said, 28 years younger than her. They had sex whenever they could. He's from Youngstown, by the way. That's where he's born and raised.

And they have sex in, you know, apartments he's staying in with friends. They stop at motels, parking lots. They fuck at the bus terminal. How sleazy is that if you're fucking at a bus terminal? That's just disgusting. How old is she now in her 50s? In her 50s, 2001, Christ, she's going to be, yeah, in her mid-50s at this point. She's born in 45, 46?

She's banging a man in his 20s? Yeah, yeah. God, dang. Yeah, 28 years younger. Good for her. I guess. Well, not really. We'll find out.

But yeah, I mean, that's fine. We say good for her, but if it was the other way around, we'd be like, come on, grandpa, fucking. So the same bullshit applies. Come on, grandma. Fucking get your fucking shit in reality. Yeah. Either way, we're going, they're after you for money, stupid. Whoever it is, it's 28 years younger than you.

nobody 28 years younger than you wants to fuck you. That's put that to the world. She's in a relationship and she lives with a man. So it's like figure it out, lady. Get your fucking self-esteem in order. Thank you, exactly. And that goes for everybody. Anybody, if you're in your 50s

and someone in their 20s wants to fuck you and you're not famous, it's just because they think you're going to buy them shit. That's it. That's it. If you were in like a big band or something, you had a bunch of big hits in the 90s, you could probably get somebody younger than you

that just thinks you're cool or whatever. It's still for money. Either way. I suppose. Nobody wants your old balls. Nobody wants that. They just don't. For guys, for sure.

But I mean, living with an older woman in your 20s is, I don't know. It's pretty cool. It feels cool. Get the fuck out of here. In your 20s, you can get tits that are great. Well, why would you do that? Same thing with the guys.

You can get balls that are still close to the body. Why the fuck do you want one's hanging down in somebody's knees? It's bullshit. Nobody's fucking, you explain to me of, the older lady you fucked. And why was it, Jimmy? Because she bought you shit. Well, because it was fun. No, you told me why. It was because she bought you shit. That's why you said you went out with. Well, she paid for dinner and shit. She wouldn't allow me to pay for dinner. Yes, because you're younger than her son. That's why. I was younger than the daughter that my friend was banging.

Yeah. Exactly. Yes. She's a creepy, creepy old woman and you're a disgusting fucking. She wouldn't let me. That's so wild. Yeah. That's why you're, she's like, there's a reason why you're with me. And it's because I pay for things. And then you bang me. that's how this works you're fucking this all up dude that's what she's saying she's like bro you can't you're messing it up

yeah you're making the whole thing weird by trying to pay for shit you're trying to pay yeah I'm trying to get like a sugar mama situation happening and you're trying to make this a relationship I don't like it oh god

so he had prior convictions also this guy he's got problems he's got issues he's a criminal he's a bit of a He's a bit of a criminal. Yeah.

He is, has a bit of a problem here. By 2001, they got together around 99ish, early 2000. By 2001, he's incarcerated at Lorraine Correctional Institution in Grafton, Ohio on what's, I think it's a gun charge as the, what we've heard rumor of, but not positive. So he's scheduled to be released later on here, you know, won't be there for too long. But this affair, like we said, started well before prison. So Nate, 28 years younger. But they really seem to be getting close by the time he goes to jail. No, I don't know if that's because she's someone willing to hang with him while he's in jail.

Right. So, you know. Or maybe he's dangerous and she likes that and it's hot. Part of it, yeah. But it's very strange, though. when they started out around late 99, she was 55 and he was 27. Okay.

That's double. That's too much. Too much. So it's very interesting here. Now, Nate seems to really, in the correspondence as we find out about from jail, he talks about building a world of our own and running away together and all this shit.

Oh. Running away together, you better find somewhere with a good, like good medical care because she's pushing 60, sweetheart. You got a fucking, what are you talking about, bro? Run away within reach of your parole officer. Your parole officer and a very good regional medical center. That's what you need between the two.

Perhaps a mayo. Yeah. You need to check in every month and her hips are getting a little fragile. So, come on. Yeah, she's going to need mammograms and all that shit. All sorts of shit. Pretty frequently. Yeah.

All kinds of stuff going on. She's going to have to have her fucking, yeah. Yeah. You're going to have to have her pap smeared and all that stuff. She's going to have prolapses from all the areas happening pretty soon. You don't want that. Her heels are going to hurt. There's going to be some problems.

It's very soon, by the way. Running isn't really what you're talking about. Yeah, don't go running. No, no go running anywhere. Ginger brisk walk. We're going to go for a nice mall walking pace. In an orthopedic shoe preferably. In a very comfortable orthopedic shoe.

He's going to get her one of those walkers with the tennis ball. on the bottom, it's going to be great. Okay. Don't run, walk in hoax. Yeah. December 11th, 2001. Yeah. Okay.

Robert is working a closing shift at the Youngstown Terminal. He's by himself in charge there doing whatever. There's a bus driver named Jim McCoy, who I can only assume as a ex-convict. Maybe not.

He saw Robert there at 4.30 in the afternoon working by himself. All right. And he sees him doing that. And shortly after 430, this is that McCoy, the driver just left Youngstown, drives his bus to the Warren Greyhound Terminal, the other one that they run. And there, McCoy sees Donna with a young black male, who was Nate. Nate's a young black male.

And these two don't look like a couple. Let's just say that. No. She looks like an older white woman and he looks like a young black guy. They don't look like, they don't look like the most. like, oh, yeah, those two are probably together, like as a couple. It just doesn't look like it, you know what I mean, at all. Looks like a guy that she's helping out.

Well, I don't know, like adopted son maybe or like one of her son's friends or some sort of ward of some, yeah. Possibly one of her grandchildren's, you know, father. I don't know. Something. It's interesting. So he sees them together. And now the man identified himself to the bus driver as Nathaniel.

Okay. full name. Oh, he's going by Nathaniel, huh? By Nathaniel. What's his formal? Yeah. He's going bus station formal right now. Yeah. He's going what's on the driver's license.

Well, when you meet at a Greyhound station, you give your full government name. That's how it works. Sorry. It's every time. State ID. Yep. So he said the two of them appeared to be in a hurry to leave, the bus driver set. And Nathaniel told the bus driver, quote, we're trying to get out of here.

Okay. The security guard saw Robert leave the other Greyhound station at 9 p.m. saying I'm going home. So we know Robert was working at the Greyhound station until 9, then he's going home. December 12th, 2001. So this is that night at 12.1 a.m. So it's technically December 12th, but it's three hours and one minute after Robert left the Greyhound station there. December 12, 2001. So technically the next day, but 12.1 a.m.

So barely. Just, I mean, it's three hours. Brand new day. Yeah, three hours and one minute since Robert left the Greyhound station, so he was going home. A 911 call comes in to the Trumbull County dispatch here. It's Donna Roberts calling 911. Screaming into the phone. Oh.

Screaming like a banchy, hysterical. Big problem. telling the dispatcher, there's something wrong with my husband. There's something wrong with my husband. The dispatcher, for the first few times, she said it, couldn't even make out what the hell she was saying. That's how crazy. She's just freaking out. Hysterical.

Crying, shouting, you know, holding the phone away and yelling shit. Just crazy. So the dispatcher keeps her on the line and they send the police. They're like, once they get the address, they're like, all right, whatever's there, the police will handle. So we'll just send them. I don't know what you need, but we're sending everybody. have here. Here they come. Here they come. So this is the, the Howland Township is a very small department, obviously, and they get there pretty quick. It's a small town, not a lot of distance to

cover. Sure. It's about a mile from the police station, the house. So pretty close. Very close. So within minutes, the patrol cars are coming into the driveway here. First officers on the scene are the ones who are going to end up putting the case together here. Well, the first one there is an officer named Albert Ray. And then the detective starts showing up, Sergeant Paul Monroe and Detective Sergeant Frank Dillon. And also the captain, this comes as well. This is what I mean. Murders don't happen a lot here.

So if someone says, I don't know what's wrong with my husband, the police captain shows up. Well, send the cap. Small town, you know, that's a small town. My husband is in distress. Well, what's the problem? I don't know. Well, the captain does, I don't know. That's it.

The game ward and the mayor's going to show up next. We'll send them and find out what you need. So these are all the people that end up kind of handling the case, basically, here. Now, when they pull up, they find Donna out in front of the house, standing out in front of the house. They go in the house. She says in there and there. So they go in there. Just inside the door from the garage, face down in a pool of blood, huge amount of blood, they find Robert Finger Hut dead.

Okay. Next to him is a fully loaded 38 caliber revolver. Fully loaded. Fully loaded. That's going to be a thing here. He's fully clothed. There is, you know, his wallet is still on him. Yeah. There's no signs of any struggle in any of the rooms away from the kitchen. This didn't start in a bedroom and make its way to the kitchen or anything like that.

So they said that during the hours, immediately following, the 911 call, police observed, Donna's emotional state fluctuating, which will happen. Yeah. If you've watched someone who didn't murder someone find out about them dying, that happens a lot. That's what it happens. First, they freak out. They might hyper-enolate, fall down. And they go, okay, I got to get calm.

What's going on? What happens? Then they sit there for a minute. Seems like the first is like imagining what happened, and that's shocking. Yeah. And then once you get beyond that, then you start realizing, oh, God, they're dead. And then you get over that. And then you realize what dead means and they're not coming back.

And then you freak out there. Exactly. And you have a little lull in that. And you start thinking about, oh, shit, now what do I do? And oh, my God. And this is real. And then you start freaking out. But that's usually more of a quiet sobbing almost that I've seen.

It's not a, that's not a. Yeah. And then you go to a funeral and see the body and then you freak out again. It's just a lot of freaking out. It's a lot of freaking out. And everybody is different, too, because I've read in books, too, where like homicide cops, if someone's dead in a family, they're immediately scoping which family member they're going to talk to as a contact and get help from because there's going to be a bunch of people freaking out. A bunch of people doing histrionics, a bunch of people making it about themselves.

And then there'll be like one person who's calm and collecting going, what do we need to do? How do I help focus? You've got to focus there. So everybody reacts to. differently. But they said that very much fluctuated. At times, she'd be calm and quiet. And at other times, she was crying and screaming, oh, my Robert, my Robert. Oh, she was doing that. Real. Robert, yeah. Now, let's find out what's wrong with Robert here. And by the way, this is what she found this and said, something's wrong with my husband, by the way. He shot three times.

Well, that's impossible. You could pretty much see what's wrong with. them probably by the fucking bullet holes in him in the chest back and head. Oh, God. It's not good. Not good. And on the large pool of blood and everything else. What kind of round did that? We'll find out in a minute.

We're going to go through the autopsy. The shot to the head described in the autopsy as a penetrating gunshot wound to the top of the head. Top of the head. Top of the head. Which is not normal, obviously. That's usually somebody ducking or on their knees. On their knees or on the ground or whatever. Or already, yeah.

Yeah. They also one to the chest, one to the back. The shot to the head was the fatal one. Gunshot residue on the body indicated the head wound was inflicted at close range. So they said the muzzle of the gun very close to the head went off. In addition to the bullet wound, Robert had lacerations and abrasions on his left hand and on his head. So it looks like he was fighting as well. It was fighting, yeah.

They're consistent with a struggle, so he definitely fought. The laceration on his left hand between the thumb and index finger was interesting because it would show that this is crazy. They just found a wound at first on there. Then when they went through it, they figured out that the bullet went through the webbing. Webbing and into his head. That's the top of the head shot went through his. What? So he had his hand up.

Yeah. top of the head. So he saw it come and knew it was coming and tried to put his hand up over it and a bullet went through the webbing. Jesus. I mean, if it hit a bone, it might have helped him. It might have saved him. If it hit one of the hands in the bone, it might have deflected it a little bit here. They're saying it is either a 38 or a 357.

I don't know. That's going to stop it. Yeah. No, but it could. Bullets will deflect off bones like crazy. That's a crazy round, though. Oh, it is. It's got a lot of powder.

They deflect off bones a lot. That happens an awful lot. 38? It happens tons I've seen in autopsy shit. Deflecting off bones and things like that. Bones can be harder than we think sometimes. And bullets don't always break them. Sometimes they'll also could have slowed it down enough to where.

There's just so much powder behind a 38 and a 357. Yeah. They just move so fast. I'm not sure if at that close of range it would have mattered. Put it that way. That's a great point too. From 10 feet is a big difference from. A foot in terms of.

But if it's coming right out the barrel. Right there. It probably wouldn't make much of a difference. Now, it probably would go right through whatever. Even still, though, it's crazy that he knew to put his hand on top of his head. Yeah. That means they could see it. Yeah.

He could see what they were doing. To me, it sounds like head and chest. Hand-to-hand combat. Yeah. Got shot in the head and the back in the chest, went down to his knees. Yeah. And then some. Somebody did that while he tried to cover up.

That's what it seems like to me, but I mean, I could be completely wrong. I'm not a crime scene reconstructionist. I don't know. So the state investigators do have crime scene reconstructionists. Sure. And they have an idea of what they think happened. They think that this didn't start in the kitchen but started in the garage. They said that Robert came home, pulled into the garage, parked, got out of his car, and they think that's where he was attacked.

Okay. in the garage. They said he was beaten, pistol whipped also, they think. There's abrasions that are consistent with a pistol whipping, so that would make sense. If somebody hit him, he doesn't go down and fights back

and takes a swing because in the movies, when you pistol whip somebody, they fall right down. Right. Unconscious. I mean, they're out cold at that point. It's almost over. I mean, they're just, they could be standing there perfectly, they'll just, oh, and dead. I mean, on the ground. It's like in wrestling, when someone gets

hit with the belt, they're unconscious, no matter what. It's crazy, how heavy that thing is. It's insane that it's a, you know, a millimeter thick piece of metal, and it's just out cold. Just can't stop the guy. Even though I've seen him get punched in the head and kicked 40 times in the last five minutes, that makes it out. I'd see him get thrown off the rope and into a boot. And they're fine. Still, that belt, though, watch out.

But yeah, pistol-lipping, like the first Beverly Hills cop when he walks in and the guy hits him from behind, he just, he's out. Betty Murphy's unconscious in the first one. I mean, boom, in the hallway. Crazy how quick you can sneak up on somebody and just whack them with a snub nose. You never see him again in the movie. They're gone. They're out. May as well be dead.

He woke up later like, what, what happened? I mean, sleepy time. Yeah. So that's what they think. He was pistol whipped. He fought a little bit, leaving abrasions on his hand and head, made it through the door from the garage into the kitchen. Probably trying to get away from the person. And it was inside the kitchen door.

That's when the shots were fired. One on the back first, probably. They were all, yeah, they were all very close range. And they said the last one, top of the head, through his hand, was probably when he'd already fallen and was on the ground. Because otherwise, top of the head makes no sense unless the guy's eight foot three. Right. It doesn't make a lot of sense. So the blood spatter and the body position established the kitchen as the death site and the garage as the beginning of it all.

And the doorway is the route there, obviously. they said the shooter would have walked through Robert's blood on the way out. So they look for that. And there are footprints in the blood. Bingo. They have footprints of a certain shoe pattern and certain size. And they're pretty goddamn good and clean, too. Oh, boy.

That's going to help later. Okay. So they're processing the crime scene, obviously. This is a lot to process. While they're doing this at 3.30 a.m., the house phone rings. at the house. Okay. Someone calls the crime scene

at 3.30 in the morning. Calls Fingerhuts house. He calls Fingerhuts and Donna's house. Yeah. So Detective Sergeant Monroe answers it. Yeah.

And there's a pause and then they hung up. Hmm. They paw, which is amazing. Did he identify himself as a police officer? Yeah.

He said, yeah, hello? Crime scene. Detective so and so. Crime scene. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. go. So he does that, which is interesting here. There's a pause and a hang up on that. So a lot of times, too, people call, murderers will call crime scenes sometimes. It's very strange. Check who knows anything. Yeah. In one book I was reading, this guy killed a guy who's a debt collector. He worked for like one of those rental places. Sure. Weekly rent a center type joints. And he would go around in Baltimore and do his rounds every one. week and collect. And he just disappeared in the middle of his rounds one day. And he would carry large amounts of cash because he would be collecting along the way. And some dude just killed him and put him in his basement. And then left.

And then afterwards called the police and were like, yo, yeah, it's me. It's my house. And I killed him. And the cops thought he was a prank caller. So they hung up on him. And then they were like, hey, what's the name of the guy that lives here? And they told him. And the guy goes, oh, shit, I just hung up on the guy.

Fuck. They're like, well, we need to. And the guy called back and he's like, um, and they were like, no, no, no, you're good. Yeah, no, come on over. We got you covered. Hey, you told me to fuck myself. That's not, I don't want to complain, please. It was real weird.

So later on, this call is traced to Donna Roberts' cell phone. Oh, oh. She's not, after a while, she's out of the scene once they're processing. You can't hang out there. So, um, they also said that. It was weird. Over the course of the evening, her demeanor was odd. They said that the detective Sergeant Monroe and other officers noticed that, quote, when police investigators talked extensively, they no longer heard her shouting.

She'd be like, oh, my Robert. But then when they were in like a big talk and whatever, then she'd be sitting calmly. So they said when any, when they entered the room where she was, then she'd start wailing again. Oh, my robber. But when they were doing other shit and she was separate from them, she was very quiet. She's only way when someone was there. How long was she gone?

She had to leave the house, right? Because her cell phone is calling the house. Yeah, yeah. After a while, they'd take her out of there because she's just at the crime scene. So she goes to a relative's house after a while. Now, they don't know at first that that's who called, but they find out later through the records.

Sure. They said when a detective checked on Roberts in her bedroom because she had been quiet, she began shouting again upon seeing him. Like, see if she's all right in there. And they went and saw her as soon as he came in the room. Oh, God. Yeah. It's horrible. Which is interesting.

Yeah. Very interesting. A teenager trying to call in sick to school. Yeah. Oh, my stomach. Oh, God. It's horrible. Oh, it hurts.

It hurts. It hurts. at the scene said that he, quote, didn't notice any tears coming from her eyes through these giant, you know, bouts of hysteria. Yeah, yeah. Which is interesting, which a lot of people, when they fake crying, they're not good at, that's the part they don't get. You need snot and tears in there to make that shit believable.

Yeah, it's fascinating. How many, I haven't seen a real good cry on TV in so long. I'm trying to think. The last one I saw. I just saw that documentary. Oh, which one? Should I marry a murderer documentary with the Scottish people?

She crying a lot. She should have been crying because she's dumb as shit, but she cried a lot. The last one I found was that mentally challenged girl that was kidnapped by Ariel Castro. At that point, the one that he fucking hated that he was so mean to. Her crying in court is so real. Like she came over and forced her way in the house.

You kidnapped these people and you're like, ah, I don't like the one I kid. Kidnap. Sorry. Sorry, Dickhead. Poor those crying and blowing snobbles in court. It's so horrible. I feel so bad for her. That is bad. Yeah, that one that, uh, should I marry a murderer, documentary. You get to see a doctor cry a lot. Oh. She cries a lot. All right. So no tears. The cops notice this and write it in their report. No tears. She doesn't cry. Yeah. It's not a crier there. Okay. Um, so. Dehydrated.

She's, well, she's keeping it. That's what it is. She's conserving her water. That's how it goes. Yeah. So 10 a.m.,

Detective Monroe visits Donna at her brother's house. Uh-huh. By that time, she gives them written consent to search everything in the residence.

Okay. Because they still need consent from her to search everything just to make it official. You know what I mean? I mean, they could search around the body and, you know,

but to really go through everything fine-tooth comb. They need her to say, yes. So she enthusiastically signs it and says, quote, do whatever you have to do to catch the bastard who killed my Robert. Exclamation point. Don't, yeah, are you fucking searching search?

I don't care what you have to do. You find that son of a bitch there. So anyway, other things she wrote down are Nate and Donna were writing each other other a lot, a lot of letters we find out from the search, by the way. Oh. When they go to search her house and they search everything, they find a whole lot of shit with Nate here. They find love letters and shit?

Tons of them. Oh. Tons of them. The letters are addressed on Donna's end to a PO box she set up and warned because she didn't want to see Robert to see letters coming to the house from jail. Nate writes from prison on fucking whatever, like a paper bag chunk he writes in. Whatever paper he can acquire in prison is what he writes on.

which reminds me of dopesick love when he's sitting on the step and he's like, yo man, tell it how you feel, man, let it all out, man, tell him how you feel. And he's writing a crack he's on so much crack writing a fucking love letter to his imprisoned girlfriend on a paper bag.

On an inside out, McDonald's bag. It is wild. And he's going, you know, tell it how you feel, man. Tell how you feel, his friend's saying. Put your heart around the fries oil stains. The sad part was it was generic. It wasn't even a McDonald's bag.

It wasn't even a real stuff. Nah, it was like he got like a bodega when he got a pack of cigarettes or something. It was even sadder. It's just the brown paper. Just plain as can be. Plain as can be. So that's what he sends. And it's 285 letters in total that they're going to find.

300 pages? 285. 145 letters from Nate to Donna. They found sitting in her dresser drawer. She kept every one of them. Every goddamn one of them. Well, maybe. There could have been 400, I guess.

Then there's 140 from Donna to Nate. Ooh, we. That is found in a brown paper bag with Nate's name written on it in the trunk of Donna's car, which is parked in the garage at the crime scene. Oh, my God. His name is written on it, just in case you don't know that all the letters are addressed to Nate's bag. She didn't think that would look that. No, not at all. No, she said, you search and you go ahead.

So more of those letters in a bit here. All right. All right. Now, first of all, they do find from there that he's in prison. So they're like, okay, well, that's probably one suspect we don't have to worry about since he's in prison. He's in prison right now. Yeah, then they find out, oh, he was released two days ago. Oh, shit.

He's released from prison on December 9th. That's not good. So December 12th in the afternoon, Donna goes to talk to the police. Yeah. She, they got some questions here, obviously. 185 of them. At least 285. Explain this one.

Yeah. Explain this one. 285. Oh, my God. It's worse. Yeah, 185 would be. All day. All day.

Well, they don't bring that up at first. At first, they say, tell us about your life with Robert. You know, they treat her like a widow at this point. So she describes a loving relationship. Between her and Robert? Between her and Robert. Yeah. a loving relationship, but she also stated that, this is amazing, that she and Robert were,

quote, a cool couple, which what do you think that means? I know what that means. You know exactly what that means. And, quote, he did his thing and she did hers. Yeah. That's what he says. We're a cool couple, meaning she lets me a prison young prison dick and he can do whatever he wants at the Greyhound station.

Yeah. Wow. So cool couple doing his thing. Now, we're a cool couple. We're a cool couple. God damn it. He describes her relationship as loving here. But sexually, you know, like I said, they're cool.

It's all good. So they said, well, who have you been in a sexual relationship with? We'd like to talk to them. And she said, well, for about six months, I've been banging some guy named Carlos. So there's him. There's Carlos. there's also a sexual relationship with another guy named Santiago that I've been fucking for a while too.

She said, I tried to help Santiago and I was trying to help him out, you know, and fuck him at the same time. But he ended up stealing money from it, money and a gun from me. So I don't talk to him anymore. Wow. Yeah, he stole from me. So they said, anyone else besides Carlos and Santiago that you've been seeing? And she says, no, there's nobody else.

I told you everybody. Oh. That's all. So then the cops say, well, what about a guy named Nate Jackson? Uh-huh. Her quote, quote, yes, I forgot about him. Ha! Imagine fucking someone 30 years younger than you and forgetting about it.

Just, oh, wow. I get so many lineal feet of penis on a monthly basis from different people. I forgot about that one. I don't even know. I'm sure Nate's going to be thrilled to know that. Just forgot all about it. She said, oh, yeah, that's right. I've been dating him for about two years, but I forgot he existed.

Oh, yeah. And they said, well, he was in jail recently in prison. Were you calling and exchanging letters? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were writing back and forth and calling. Totally forgot about that guy. Yeah, see, that's why I forgot. Out of sight out of mind.

Yeah. It slipped. Jesus Christ. This is how out of sight he was, though. Yeah. She then realizes that she has to tell a truth about this. She said, well, they said, well, what's the last time you saw him? It must have been a long time ago if you forgot about him.

She said, December 9th, two days ago, three days ago, and he got out of jail. I picked him up at the Lorraine Correctional Institution and then left him in Youngstown at a house on Wirt Street. So, you know, I should have probably remembered him. You're right. You're right, considering I still have his dried semen on a part of my body somewhere, possibly. It may still be dripping. It's possible. Yeah.

I'm pretty, I keep pretty moist. Let's just say that. I keep myself lotioned up. Good. It could be anywhere. If I'm wearing the same underwear from yesterday, 100% certain as DNAs. It's in there.

A lot of it. So she said she last spoke to him over the telephone on the morning of December 11th, so the morning of the murder. Now, they know from people at the Greyhound Station that on the afternoon of December 11th, she was in the Greyhound Station with a guy named Nathaniel, who fits this guy's description. How many young black guys named Nathaniel you hanging out with, lady? So they're like, okay, so they're collecting her inconsistencies.

And then she says, look, Robert, like I said, we were cool and, you know, cool. We were cool. So you might want to look into people he was seeing. Yeah, people that aren't so goddamn cool. Yeah, because Robert, by the way, also was going both ways, quote, unquote. What? She's saying he was bisexual. Yeah?

Yeah. And said that Robert had a friend named Bobby. Oh. That was his guy he was banging. She couldn't even come up with a different name that wasn't his. It's crazy. She almost said Robbie, but she'd be too obvious. Bobby, Bobby with a B.

Yeah, lots of bees in that name. Yeah. She also said that Robert had been, quote, acting kind of nutty for the week and a half before he died, which she just attributed to whatever, you know, whatever relationship goofiness was going on with him and Bobby. Yeah. Okay. Now, there is absolutely zero. Zero evidence. Evidence or corroboration that Robert was bisexual.

There's zero. He had a friend named Bobby. There's zero evidence that he's had any other relationships. and they could not find a human being named Bobby that he interacted with ever, essentially. This Bobby, they couldn't, they asked her to track him down. She didn't know. They tried to track him down.

No Bobby anywhere to be found. Bobby is in the way. Feels perhaps made up. Bobby in the breeze at this point. Yeah. So they're like, hmm, that's interesting. A bisexual relationship with an imaginary man. That sounds plausible.

Okay. So they said, okay, do you have a cell phone? You have a cell phone, right? Can I look at it? Yeah. She searched her purse and said, oh, I must have left it at home. What? Okay.

And you got to understand, too, because everybody now, your phone goes with you to the bathroom. It goes with you everywhere. In 2001, your phone was just a phone. Yeah. You would just leave it sitting somewhere because unless you wanted to make a call, it was useless for anything else. There wasn't even a fucking camera on it yet in 2001. You could certainly play the snoburn.

You could play Tetris possibly if you got a really good phone. That snake game was mad addicting. There's a lot of those shitty games that were addicting. So Detective Monroe tells her that their call that came to the crime scene at 3.38 a.m. Yeah. Came from her cell phone. Right. So she sits there for a minute like, huh, that's weird.

How did that happen? I don't get. It's so easy. My cell phone? And then she comes and she figures it out. She says, oh, I know. Nate must have had the phone. He's always borrowing it.

He's been out of jail for three days. So he's only been borrowing it for three days, number one. And number two, you didn't remember this guy 12 minutes ago. Right. And now he's got currently has your cell phone. This is the worst lying. You should have done it so fast. I had to see if it was real.

Yeah. It's so easy to watch that call. I had to see, but why'd you hang up? That's the thing. Why would you hang up? As soon as I heard cops, I hung up. Yeah. I was like, it is real.

That would sound better than... I guess. I must have borrowed it to somebody? Yeah, that sounds... I mean, that would have sounded better what you have over here. Even though she was the one who called it in, so she goddamn knows it's real. It's not like they notified her of it and she had to call to make sure. Like, still, though, it sounds better than...

I don't know. Sounds better than a guy I forgot about has my phone. Must have. Yeah. I don't even know if that's for sure. He must have it. He's always borrowing it. Always borrowing it that guy.

Always. So still the same day, December 12, 2001, Roberts' vehicle is found. Oh, it was taken. It was gone. It is taken. It's found in Youngstown. Three blocks from Wirt Street, which is where Donna told the police she dropped off Nate when he got out of prison. Like three blocks from the house that he's supposed to be at.

Oh, boy. A forensic team finds blood on the driver's side, and in other areas around the automobile. Yeah. Not good. Then, over the next few days, police continue to investigate things that they hear. Right. And they end up at the wagon wheel motel, which sounds nice.

Just gorgeous, beautiful place here. They find out that Roberts had registered at the Days Inn also, because they find out that Donna and Nate had spent the night that he got out of prison together at the wagon wheel motel. Uh-huh. Then she went over to the days in and registered for a week and paid for it. Yeah, let's fuck it all the worst hotels in America. All of the most mediocre shitholes there are.

Let's go there. At least this is like a chain shithole, not the wagon wheel motel. Yikes. So they know that they were planning on at least having Nate have a place for a week or possibly her too. So they do ballistics. and the bullets that killed Robert come from a totally different

357 or 38, not the one next to his body. So they had to make sure of that, obviously. He's got a 350, a possible 38 slug in his head and a 38's lying next to him. Well, that gun also fires both rounds. That's the other. That's why they say they don't know which one it came out of.

So they said that they can't find that the other weapon, though. They'd love to find the actual murder weapon. Yeah, love to know what did it, because this thing's fully. loaded and how did he not get a round off in defense? That's fast. That's the thing. That must have been bum rushed pretty fast.

If he had time to throw a left hook, he had time to shoot. He had a gun out. You know what I mean? It's easier to shoot than throw a left hook. Or perhaps he's trying to get away because the gun's on the inside of the house, gets into the house, grabs the gun, but he's shot two times before he can let one off. Yeah. We'll find out here.

Okay. There's an explanation to this, which is the fun part. Now, Michael, his son, said he was more. than just a dead body. He was a person that people cared about. So he was very upset with the whole thing. And this Michael, too, he'll keep having to come back from Ohio, basically, you know, draining his bank account to keep coming back here to go to court hearings. Where's he from? He lives in Florida. This is he's got to keep coming back. Now, remember those letters they found in the dressing drawer? 295 of them? And in a paper bag marked Nate. Yeah. Okay. Here are the letters here. They start reading them and they got a Pretty good idea what's going on once they start reading him.

Here is Nate to Donna early October 2001. Yeah. Quote, why don't you leave Robert and let's carry on with a world of our own? Or let me do what I was going to do to him because you know what? That was our little thing. So you better not go and try and get someone, get to know someone else to do it because I told you. Or you better not to try, sorry, he spells no, N-O, K-N-O-W. He spells no like that.

He says, who does that? Nate, you better not try to get no one else to do it. K-N-O-W, no, no one else. That's why I was like, you better not get to know someone, but no, he means it this way. Because I told you it's getting done when I come home. Okay. Okay. Less than a week later, he writes back again.

quote, Donna, I got it already planned out on how we're going to take care of the Robert situation. Question mark for some reason, which that's not a question. That's very much a statement. And baby, it's the best plan ever, exclamation point. Because Donna, it's now time that we really get to be together so that we can really see the true side of our love because I'm tired of not being able to be with you. Oh, boy. Okay. It's the best plan ever, he says. He said that?

He said, the second sentence. Did you hear? He said, and baby, it's the best plan ever. All right. So, interesting. Her, the next, Donna keeps writing back saying, like, are you sure? You know, I mean, we don't have to do this, but maybe if you're sure, blah, blah, blah. Nate's next letter to her in October of 2001, Donna, I don't care what you say, but Robert has to go. Holy.

Now it's getting pretty specific and clear what's going on here. And he always spells and A-N, by the way, every time. And I'm not going to let you stop me this time. And, and, Donna, you know that I've always wanted to live my life with you and only you. but every time I wanted to take care of the situation by myself, you wouldn't never let me. Wouldn't never. That means she would let him. Yes.

Yeah, it's a double negative there, Chief. Because you wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do to make you happy, and that was get rid of him. So, Donna, can I do this so that we can go on and live happy, and then maybe we can sell the house and move on somewhere else on our own? and I'm not going to be happy until that happens. He's going to find a nice retirement community with his, and the best part is we can live in 55 and over communities. That's the best part. I don't know if he's allowed.

I'll sneak in, it's fine. You can buy the house. I'll just, you know, no one needs to know about that. It's all good, don't sweat it. Well, shit, I'm black. They don't know how old I am. It's a great point, too. You walk up and be like, I'm 63 years old.

People go, hey. Okay. It's possible. You wouldn't challenge it. No, you'll look like an asshole. You never know. Yeah, you never know. So he said, so this is, he's been, it seems like really talking about this for a long, just come on.

Let me kill your husband. And he's pushing the issue. Please. Yeah. Yeah, he's pushing it totally, totally. And she's saying things like, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe if you're good, we'll stop at McDonald's on the way home and then you can murder my husband.

But only if you're good. If you listen real good all day. If you're really good while mommy has her appointment, you can maybe kill my husband. But only if you also dig out of the trash when you're home. Please do that. Which, yeah, every time I wanted to take care of the situation by myself, you wouldn't never let me. That's very telling here. It's not fair.

It's not fair, Mom. So Donna's response, this is mid-October 2001, quote, you know you can. always count on me, you always could. It'll just be a little tougher now because he gives me $100 a week for everything and then makes me write checks to keep track of it all. She's got to balance the checkbook about it?

Well, then he can tell where all the money went. He just gives her piles of cash. He can go, you know, give it to prisoners who are fucking her and wanting to kill him. So it makes sense. Yeah, excellent point. It's a smart move. Don't go putting this on somebody's books.

You have $20 a day. You're not buying anybody's ramen noodles with this show. No. No. I should be able to sponsor you for $20 a day. That's it. So I think this was in response to him needing more money also because she's saying, look, I'll help you all I can, but you know I don't have any money now.

She says, quote, and I haven't been allowed, and it's on all caps, allowed, to use any of my 52 charge cards. She brings it up. She brings this up constantly, by the way, about the charge cards. 52 credit cards. Good Christ. That's one a week. It's wild. Yeah, she's very proud of the fact that she has 52 charge cards, though.

She brings it up quite often. I mean, it sounds like it's an achievement that she never thought that she would get. It's like being a million miler or something. But this is not an achievement. You're not in debt if you're a million miler. You get bonuses. This is like 52 people will allow me to. pay them back money that I like what the hell

accomplishment is this? It's wild with interest but still. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I haven't been allowed to use any of my 52 charge cards and then dash emergency only. I'm not used to living like this. I'm used to having plenty of cash for whatever I want and buying everything I want.

Maybe those days will return again soon. Do whatever you want to him. ASAP, she says. Do whatever you want to him. ASAP. Last word. Amen. Amen. She fucking amends.

You can go ahead and murder my husband message. Amen. Wow. What the fuck are you doing, lady? Thank you for this food. Wow. The Nate's response is even crazier to the ASAP amen bullshit here. Okay.

He responds with a sketch. It's not a letter. It's a drawing. Yeah. A drawing of Roberts Tombstone. with his name on it, all that shit. And in the inscription,

you know, the epitaph is rest in piss. That's his fucking... He's very creative this date. And what is... What is Nate so mad about? That's what I'm wondering. He seems more pissed off than her.

I don't know why. I guess because she should be able to spend as much money as she wants on him. And Nate doesn't like seeing his lady suffer, man. I guess so. She's suffering. She's really suffering, you know. You take somebody's discover from them.

I swear to Christ, that's not easy, man. It's disturbing when things are happening to your mom and you can't control them. You know what I mean? What's in her? Not Capital One. I'll tell you that right now. Capital One and everything else, but she's not allowed to use them, unfortunately. Yeah, she might be the last person in the country to have a diners club.

I think she does. She's got it all. man, whatever that Tully Savala shit that he was putting. That's a lot, man. I don't think they've ever seen 52 commercials for credit cards. That's about all I've seen 52 of is commercials for credit cards. I never heard of anyone having 52 credit cards. Imagine anybody, somebody watched TV for six months and then said, I'll take all of them.

Every card I've seen advertised. I'll take them. Local ones from a bank, I don't give a shit, everything I got. I mean, there was that old trope of the 80s and late 90s of like when somebody would like unroll all their fucking credit cards. Yeah, it was a joke. But it wasn't 52. And that doesn't mean anything.

Like 20 would come out. And that was like, oh, ha, ha. 52, you wouldn't, that would touch the ground. And go past the other person. You'd have to really ravell those up. It would take a long time. So the reason. I have a fucking fishing reel to roll up.

Yeah. So he responds, rest and piss. Yeah. Toomstone. Because he's mad. Because he's a little upset about some stuff. Then in late. October 2001 here. He says,

Nate says, and then after that, you don't ever have to worry about making no more, K-N-O-W-more. Right. Excuses to him because he will no longer be with us after 1210-01. I mean, how much more specific could he be? I mean, good God. By the way, if you're European, that's December, not. Right. Not October. Not October 12. Yeah, that means December 10th, 2001. He died on December 11th, 2001, by the way. After December 10th, he will no longer be with us. Rest in Piss. He may as well say, I'm going to murder a person on December 11th.

Not even, he'll no longer be a problem for us because he'll no longer be with us. is literally the only time you say that she might as well have said he'll be passed away by then like there's no other more obvious way to put it even when a company says oh they're no longer with us i go oh that's too bad that's just oh i'm sorry so sorry to hear it yeah how's his wife taking the news so he says and then it gets worse by the way he says and then it'll be me and you totally and completely. Then she goes on and say, hey Donna. Hey, Donna.

Hey, Donna. Just think, come 12-1101, you'll be waking up to me or maybe we'll give it a couple of days to let things look cool. And then after the funeral, baby, when I come home, I'm never leaving. and we're only doing it like that just to make it look good. Meaning, I would, I'd murder him and then we would fucking his blood. But, you know, the police will frown upon that. So basically, I'll take a couple days and then it's all me and you have to. I'll stay at the wagon wheel till Thursday.

Yeah, days in for a week. Yeah. Yeah. To make it look good. All I need is for my baby not to worry and leave everything else up to me. I got it. I got this. I am a very, very seasoned murderer.

I'll take care of this. I just wrote my whole plan down and mailed it to you. And mailed it through the jail, by the way, which can monitor anything anyway. And even if they don't, then it's in a fucking, this is an addresser drawer in the house of the murder scene. That you gave in writing permission to the police to search. You knew. And you said, you need to catch that bastard. Yeah.

The evidence is upstairs. Wow. So if you go over this, the amount of times, you'll no longer have to worry about making no more excuses to him. Okay, right there, that's pretty incriminating. That's pretty incriminating. Then the next thing, because he'll no longer be with us, that's very incriminating. Then he adds a date to it to really seal it in there. You're to sear the flavor in, you know, you got to sear it real good.

And if there was a question that maybe they're going to give him a trip, they're going to pay for him to leave. No, there's a sketch of his fucking tombstone. It's a sketch of that. Yeah, then she says, and we'll be me and you completely. Okay, yeah, maybe it's after that. That's when he gets out of jail. They're going to run away together. Then he just doubles down.

Hey, Donna, just think, come 12-11, you'll be waking up to me. Or maybe we'll let things cool down for a couple days to look cool, he says. So, you know, this is how we're also going to trick the cops is also a bad way to put it. And then he mentions the funeral. Then after the funeral, when I come home, I'm never leaving. So that just, in case you thought it was just we're going to run away together, no, no, no. After the funeral. Of who?

He'll be dead. Robert, who will be resting in piss. Resting in piss. This is the, I designed the tombstone for him. You can put that in. Give that right to the fucking stone cutter. It'll make it perfectly. Holy.

Then November comes along here. And they're still writing. Things get into logistics by then. Oh, boy. He starts asking her to buy him murder supplies that he's going to need. Okay. Here's one from Nate to Donna, late October, early November, 2001. Okay.

Quote, well, I see now you know that I'm about my business when I get out as far as our little situation. So that means you're seeing I'm serious about killing your husband now. serious and you know that now. And get me a size large leather gloves and see if you can find me a ski mask hat, okay? Jesus. Hey, let me

these are the murder supplies I'm going to need. Basically whatever OJ had, get me that. I'm going to need that. Some Bruno Mali is just all the whole deal. I want everything. See if you can find a used bronco. Is there to use bronco around? I'll escape in it.

Okay. So, see if you can find me a ski mask hat. Then he says, and I need them handcuffs you have, and it's mandatory. So get them for me because the way that I'm going to do it is going to be right, okay? Oh, boy. So this is, I need murder supplies. I need handcuffs so I can murder him and then, you know, to hide evidence, I need some other shit. I need anonymity and a way to lock a person down.

That is a horrifying letter. Them handcuffs you have that Donne already had. Apparently she has handcuffs. And I think they've probably used him before, it sounds like. Doesn't it sound like she's used him for kidnapping. Nope. Then her letter to him, talking about what she bought him, quote, I also went to four stores and finally found your ski mask and boxers and a pair of beautiful fleece-lined black leather gloves.

Beautiful. They're lovely. You're going to leave you even forever. I got you some lovely isotoneers. Oh, my God. So then he writes back here. And he says, yes, I'm taking care of that the next night because I told you that I'm tired of living like this when I don't have to. And after that, will you get me a 2002 Cadillac DeVille?

A brand new DeVille? Yeah, this isn't now we want to be together. He's asking for a specific model and year of a car. Brand new for this. brand fucking new Cadillac, okay? Next year's Cadillac. Oh, the new one. Well, it's December of, you know, it's, they're out already.

Oh, it's been out for three months, but it's still. They're looking good. The 2002 is you looking hot. People go, wow, what is that a 2001? No, this is next year's model. Yeah. So no two. Surprise doesn't want an 03.

Yeah. So he then says, and even if I got to come to the house and shoot Robert in his fucking head, you're going to be with me. My God. Add all of these letters up to this. This is bonkers. Is there a public notary? That's the only way he could have incriminated himself harder.

Any harder. Yeah. Or if he said, handed it to a guard and said, can you proof read this for me? I'm not good at spelling. Like, this is insanity. What are you talking about? In addition to the 285 letters, there are also, well, there's a lot more, but there are 18 specific recorded phone calls in their own voices that are also saved.

Oh, boy. This inmate, the phone inmate system, it records ever all the calls automatically. They're kept for at least six months afterwards. Does that, that's got a system of flagging stuff too, right? It's got to. There has to be something like that. I think it's mainly they're saved and then if anything happens, they can go back and look at it. That's crazy. You can't monitor everybody in the prison's calls for six months.

But there should be, today at least, there should be something monitoring it that flags when it hears certain words. Well, I guess a lot of people on these calls are talking in code too, so you wouldn't hear. They're talking. And on top of that, too, you know, the prisons are not. going to update their phone systems. You're only getting charged 4.85 a minute. So, God forbid, they could actually, you know what I mean? It's just a scam to make fucking money for this bullshit. It's disgusting. That shit is disgusting. Remember what fucking Arpaio is doing? A piece of shit. Scumbag. Robbing people's fucking families blind. Terrible shit. So,

anyway, that's what's going on. Now, the recordings are kept. Nate, despite knowing everything is recorded, called Donna on the prison line at least 18 times that are on the record. Openly discussing the murder. He talked about, he used code. Oh, he said the Robert situation at one point. Our little thing. That thing he would talk about, you know, that thing we're going to do. You know.

I did that thing for you. Who do you think, I did that. I took care of that thing for you. That was Pete the killer that said that in Goodfellas. You know what that means. Pete the killer said it. We know what that thing was. I used to do a joke about that way back in the day.

You know what it is. Pete the killer. What else could it be? What the fuck else would he be doing? So he, this is interesting. Now this is October 25th, 2001. Yeah. Nate, I'll be home to you.

December 9th. All the worries will be over, baby. December 9th. She just kind of says, okay. He says the next day out, I'm going. going to, I already got it in my mind. My mind made up. I'm going to go ahead and do that the next day, okay? All right. And she says, quote, oh, I just wrote to you that I didn't think you really meant it. Oh, boy. He says, what? My mind is made up. My mind is made. I wrote in my letters. You know what I'm saying,

but you know, I don't like to talk too much like that. You don't? I like to draw like that. Yeah. and write everything out in longhand. But when I come home, you know what I mean? It's going to be full detail. I'm going to let you know how I'm going to do it in everything. I'm going to do it for sure the next day. Yeah. Dude.

Like, that is so incriminating. And especially in his own voice. It's amazing. When you go before a jury, it's one thing to have something written down. He can even say, I didn't write that. You know, somebody else could have been, when it's someone's own voice and you're looking at them sitting there and you know that voice comes out of their fucking head and you're hearing it, that is so incriminating. It's not good. And their reaction to it has got to be outstanding. Yeah.

Like, as soon as you press play in court, watching their face as those words come through, it's got to be so fun. Watch the Saraboon trial and you'll see it. Yeah. When they play those videos of her with him, imagine what the look on that jury's face was. Is that you talk to me? Is that you talk to me? Fucking yelling at him, telling him he smells,

fucking screaming in his face. Then... Recording him in the suitcase while she's drunk and yelling out. That's my name. Don't wear it out. While he's dying in a suitcase, begging for oxygen. That's my name. Don't wear it out.

Sarah, I can't breathe. I can't breathe. when you're choking me. I can't breathe when you're choking me. I can't breathe when you cheat on me. That's what she said. I can't breathe when you cheat on me. That is not the same, lady.

I'm sorry. No, no, I mean it. Sarah, I'm in a Samsonite. Yeah, that's how I feel. My heart's in a Samsonite. My heart is zipped up with a combo lock, and I don't know. My heart's been beaten like a gorilla beats a Samsonite.

CSA goes through my thoughts. Have you seen? the commercials? Hello? I'm talking to you. Hello? That's my name. Don't wear it out. He's already dead and she's kicking the suit. I'm talking to you. Do you remember that commercial?

Hello? Hello? She's the worst. So that's what that reminds me of though, because everyone in court, I didn't get to see the jury, obviously, but everyone in the court was like, yeah. Like, look at her like, oh, you're a monster. So, okay, in this conversation, that is, okay, this is November 8th, Nate tells Donna that he wanted Robert to see Donna performing oral sex on Nate before he kills Robert.

So now it's worse. I want you to blow me in front of him before I murder him now. I need him to see why. Yeah. I really want to be a real jerk here. I need to humiliate him. Even though there's no beef with them. Okay.

Robert doesn't even know this is happening, does he? No idea, none at all. He's just working every day. He has no fucking idea. So anyway, that's the play. One of his plans is force Donna to blow him in front of Robert. Well, not force her because she'd be voluntarily blowing him. Forced Robert to watch her consensually blowing him.

And before he goes away is a funny thing to, like he's going to leave. Then late November 2001, there's a lot of, little debate here. They're getting a plan, but Donna's getting nervous about it. She's nervous about leaving evidence behind. So they're talking about how not to leave forensic evidence behind. Yeah, that's a good concern. And it's 2001.

So law and order's been on for like 12 years. People are know a little more. The OJ happened in 96. That was a lesson in forensics and DNA and shit and how not to collect it. CSI is three years in by now, right? Is it 2001? I think it's around when CSI started. I think it came out like 99?

Maybe. That's possible. It's very possible. But all those shows kind of things are becoming popular. Yes. This is becoming where people know stuff. So this is late November 2001. Okay. Nate says, you know what I'm saying? The next day after. You know what I told you I wanted to do, right? And Donna says, I'm afraid, Nate. Yeah. And Nate says, what you, man, I don't know what that is. What you, man. What you, I think what you mean. Is it typed? Maybe what you mean.

This is the transcript from court. It's probably what you mean. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah, somebody might have mistranscribed it. But then Donna says, I can't afford to lose you. I cannot lose you. Like, I will kill myself.

Oh. This is a man, she told the cop she did not remember. Right. So Nate says, just forget about it, man. By the way, calling a 58-year-old woman man is just weird. to me. It's just strange. She's calling her, man? Man, he keeps calling her.

Just forget about it, man. When a person man knows what he's doing, man, that's like jinxen, man. That's what he called her man three times and four times in one sentence. Oh. Man. It's like jinks in, man. It's like jinkson, man. But Donna says then, but what was the story with the trunk and handcuffs?

That's too involved. Uh-huh. They've come up with multiple scenarios. He's like taking him away from. the scene in the trunk. Yeah. So then Nate says, just, just, just leave it alone, all right? And Donna said, it's too much involved.

You're going to leave hair. You're going to leave prints. You're going to. So then Nate says, leave it alone, man. Leave it alone, all right? Come on, man. This ain't Perry Mason, man. Like, it's worse.

Cops now have forensics and shit. Perry Mason didn't have shit. He just had to yell at someone until they admitted it. This is crazy. Perry Mason was a lawyer, wasn't he? He was a lawyer who was. would take the case apart and then get the real murderer to admit it on the stand while his client's... Nate, this is much deeper than Perry Mason.

Yeah, Perry Mason didn't have a forensics team. Right. Perry just yelled at people until he got the logistics right in his head. And this guy's like, I'll get away with it. I'll be Perry Mason, man. Come on. Forensics and hair and shit. Who cares?

Perry Mason ain't shit. Perry Mason ain't shit. So then Donna says, I don't want to know anything about it ever. No, don't tell me any of it. Do what you need to do, but leave me the fuck out of it, basically. So there's more incriminating shit. Oh, yeah, they keep talking. Oh, they can't stop.

Okay. November 24, 2001. Nate's trying to ease Donna's, you know, anxieties about this whole thing. Calm her down. He attempts to reassure her about DNA, by the way. Now he is a forensics expert. What's he going to say? Let's find out what Nate thinks, how Nate thinks forensics work.

Number one, he thinks Perry Mason deals with forensics, so that's one thing. First of all, he's not scared of Perry Mason. No. That's wild. Yeah. So, all right. No, I'll just get into this. Okay.

November 24th, 2001. Mm-hmm. Okay. Nate says, man, we really going to talk when I come home, okay? Yeah. Stop calling her, man. Please, please. He's not going to do it.

It would be less creepy if he called her ma'am as he was fucking her. This is creepy. So she says, okay. Then Nate says, especially about our, that situation, man, you know? Yeah. And she says, yeah. And he says, I mean, it just, you know. You get too nervous at times.

That's all the deal is. You're tripping. You're nervous. You can't get away with murder? What a pussy. Yeah. You don't think this thing that we've planned out and we have in writing in several things. You don't think, okay, all right.

She says, yeah, I know. It's part of my nature. Hey, you know, she's the nervous grandmotherly type. What do you expect? I'm not a murderer. So he says, quote, and then you said DNA. the only way they can do a DNA is if they got the other persons. You know what I'm saying?

So he's saying they'd have to have his DNA already to know that it was his DNA. Oh, he's so dumb. He doesn't know shit. He said if they got the person and the hair because they just, because they can't just take no hair and say, this is such and such as hair, the laws that we got in the state of Ohio and the laws from everywhere else, I mean, they, they can't. way different. And everywhere else. He's saying the laws of the state of Ohio are way different from everywhere else, and there they'll never be able to match up a hair forensically to him.

He's saying they can't just pick up a hair and go, that looks like Nate's hair, and go find him. Only way they could do a DNA. Yeah. You see. A DNA. A DNA. His thoughts are they're never going to know he exists.

That's his thought. So how would they match it up to me? They'd need to get my shit. to match it up. And if they don't know why exist, how the fuck they're going to get my shit, essentially. They'd have to know that you and I talk, 285 letters at a clip.

While they're saying this on a recorded jail call, literally being taped. Under his prison ID number, right? Because you've got to. You have to sign in through your shit, yeah, because you have accounts and all that kind of shit. So the laws that we got in the state of Ohio and the laws from everywhere else,

I mean they way different. Yeah. They wait. So he's an expert in Ohio forensic law, this guy. And what's admissible and everything else. Why he's not afraid of Perry Mason? Not afraid of Perry Mason. Let Perry Mason try to talk to me.

I'll let that motherfucker know what's up. So Donna says, really? Yeah. Rather than going, are you a moron? She says, really? She's very easy to convince. Very easy. And he says, hell yeah.

He says, we'll talk about it when I come home. Dona. Okay. I don't want to talk about it over the phone. You already did. What's the fucking point? You might as well videotape the whole murder at this point. You've already talked.

I don't want to talk about it on the phone. Oh, okay. Sorry. Don't stop now. Wow. He's explaining forensic science. Fucking up how it works. Fucking up what the laws are.

He has nothing. And he says DNA only works if they have a sample from the person to compare it to. And if they have your hair and the laws. and state of Ohio. He's all fucked up. Everything's wrong. Ohio won't let him have my hair. No, they won't.

They'll stand in the way. Ohio says you cannot take a man's hair from him if he doesn't want him to. That's it. December 8th, 2001. This is all post-9-11, too. You think it's just so much going on. It's still smoldering.

Fuck. It's still on fire. So was no one else distracted by that? Maybe I was a little too distracted by that, but I wasn't setting up any murder plots for at least three, four months after 9-11. It's very distracting. It doesn't even seem like he's heard yet.

No, I don't think he has. He's been in jail the whole time that had happened. He was in jail. So I think maybe they didn't tell him in there. It's like Goodfellas. They didn't go up there and tell you, I don't shine shoes no more. I don't know if you know, they didn't go up there and tell you, but I don't shine shoes. Those towers don't stand no more.

They don't stand no more. I don't know if they went up there and tell you about it. But December 8th, 2001, day before Nate gets out, 24 hours before that here. This is the last recorded. call between them. They, why, okay, you're getting out the next day. Just shut the fuck up and wait till you're in person. Nope.

One more. Yeah. And it's, it's the dumbest one of all almost here. Okay. He says, I got to do this, Donna. I got to. Okay. And she says, I don't know, kind of hems and haws.

He says, just consider it a done deal. Yeah. Only thing I'm going to need is one thing. What's that? She says, what? and he says, I just need to be in that house when he come home. Oh my God, dude. It's so bad.

It's so bad. So bad. All I'm going to need is one thing. What's that? To be within inches of him. Yeah, to be able to jump out at him in his own home, unsuspectingly, in the dark. That's all I need. It's going to be fine.

Wow. She says, oh, no. And he. says, baby, it ain't going to happen in the house. He's trying to convince her, I need to be there, but I'll get him somewhere so it won't happen because you don't want to ruin the, they're going to live there together. I mean, what are we talking about? I don't have to mop.

I don't want to have blood stains on my floor when I get out of here. So she said, yeah, he says, it ain't going to happen in the house. It ain't going to happen in the house, man, I promise you. Man. He said, I just need to be in there, man. It ain't going to happen in the house, man. I mean, I ain't going to jeopardize that, man. Yeah.

Not that man like Robert. I ain't going to jeopardize that, meaning the house, comma, man, you. Your man. Donna. Yeah. And she says, well, let's not talk about it now. Right. Yeah.

And he says, okay, we'll talk. We'll, I'll just wait until tomorrow. Yes, stupid. Tomorrow. Tomorrow you're getting out. And you can talk to her all you want in the privacy of an automobile when you get out of there. Okay. Now, there was another thing here, December 6, 2001, three days before he got out.

This isn't a recorded call, but Donna starts prepping three days before he gets out. She drives to the wagon wheel motel in Boardman, Ohio, about 20 minutes south of Howland Township. And she reserves a room, a very specific room. Yeah. The jacuzzi suite. Oh, jeez. Imagine going in the jacuzzi at the wagon wheel motel. It's got carpet around it.

Oh, you know it does. Soaking wet, nasty carpet. 50-year-old carpet. Oh, a jacuzzi suite. She books there and pays for it. She puts the reservation in Nathaniel Jackson's name. Yeah. So it's his name.

Okay. And this is three days before he gets out. So obviously he didn't go there and pay for it. Right. She did. Okay. December 9th, 2001, it's get out day. Oh, boy. Nathaniel is released from prison in Grafton, Ohio.

About 90 miles northwest of Youngstown. Donna Roberts takes her car. It's about an hour and a half trip to pick him up. She picks him up in broad daylight. I mean, not hiding anything here. Nope. She drives him back down to the area here. She tells police that she dropped him off at a house on Wirt Street, W-I-R-T-S-Street.

Work Street, which is a real street on the south side of Youngstown that Robert's car was found three blocks away from, as a matter of fact. This is where Nate's friends live. But she tells the cops, I just dropped him off and went home. But that's not a lie. They went to the wagon wheel motel's jacuzzi suite on December 9th and had all sorts of disgusting, you know, young man on senior citizen jacuzzi sex. Yeah. Which is good for her because it'll keep all of her hip. and all of her sore muscles in place.

You know. Yeah, the jets on the muscles. So, really soothe her. Yeah. Yeah. So they spent the night together. Oh,

all of that shit. So obviously she was lying to the cops about everything there. Then December 10th, 2001, the day before the murder, day after he gets out, they make all sorts of public appearances together. Really? They're just going around everywhere together. And they stand out because they are, it's not that they're an interracial couple. That's fine.

they're 30 years apart from each other. They don't look like... It's an old white lady and a young black man. It's... They don't look like they go together. Yeah. They don't look like they go together. It would be like if I was walking around with like a 12-year-old Asian girl, you'd go, what's your connection to this kid?

Yeah. And they'd arrest me. And it would be rightfully so. It's just weird. So, anyway, they're, they're, it's a strange thing here. She says that this is the, oh, yes, I forgot about him. Just keep remembering. Oh, yeah, him.

Oh, yeah. So she's seen here two days before the murder at a greyhound bus terminal there, seen kissing and talking with another man right near the terminal before Robert arrived for work. That's on the 10th. At his job. At his job where they own and all the employees know them. Why would she think that this is like so blatant? Openly making out outside of a bus station, which number one is disgusting. It's trash.

That's trash. Making out at a bus station? That's either, I don't know if I'm ever going to see you again or, oh, my God, I can't believe this. I thought I'd never see you again. Yeah. It's like, ma'am, you get modern maturity magazine. You don't do this. This is not modern or mature what you're doing right now.

This is wrong. So they also, the same day, overheard Donna ask Robert for $3,000, which she refused. And that was the day she gave Robert the dirty look and was like trembling and so mad. Right. December 11th is the day of the murder. We'll run down late morning, early evening. Donna and Nate continued to be seen around together, carrying over from the day before.

Witnesses spot them at various spots throughout town during the day. 4.30 p.m. Greyhound bus driver Jim McCoy sees Robert working the terminal. McCoy leaves later on. He drives his bus to the Warren terminal, sees Donna and Nathaniel together. and said Nathaniel said to him that we were trying to get out of here. About 6 p.m., Donna and Nate, go to the Red Lobster in Niles, Ohio.

Shrimp Fest is back, everybody. Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. The waitress at the Red Lobster will identify both of them. She said, yeah, it was the only old white lady, young black man couple I had the whole night. Real easy to remember. Or really all week.

You know, I can't remember the last one, to be honest. I don't remember the last one, to be honest. I can't even think of a business meeting. They're not in the same. It's a strange thing. So, Red Lobster. They pay their bill at 6.43 p.m. and leave. There is a, and they keep their, Donna keeps the receipt.

She's nice that she keeps, she's a bookkeeper. That's what she does. Yeah. About 9 a.m. or 9 p.m., I'm sorry. Robert tells the on-duty security guard at the Youngstown bus terminal that he's leaving for the evening. He says, I'm going home. Yeah. I'm out of there.

So he takes off. About 9.30 p.m., a neighbor who lives on Old State Route 82, which is the road near Donna and Roberts' house, observes Donna driving her car very slowly past the house alone with no other traffic on the road. Just creeping, checking on it. Which is very weird. case in the joint here. Case in her own joint. They think that maybe she was waiting for some kind of signal from Nate or just scoping it out because she's curious and stupid.

Then 9.45 p.m. through 1144 p.m. Here we go. Now we have cell phone records. Pulled from the carriers showing that during this two-hour window between 9.45 p.m. and 1144 p.m., Donna Roberts' two cell phone. were calling each other almost constantly. Oh, really? She's got two phones, yeah.

One cell phone was with Donna in her car. The other cell phone was the one that she, Nate, quote, borrowed from her. That's the one that she's public about here. So they were going back and forth, back and forth. And Donna had lied about that to the cops. He said, oh, I don't know. Nate just must have borrowed my phone. Meanwhile, she was in contact with him over and over and over and over again for a two-hour period.

Oh yeah, him. Yeah. Yeah. She said she just went shopping that night. They said, well, what did you shop for? She said, quote, just normal shopping. What? Food, shirts, fucking lawn equipment.

What are you shopping for? Yeah, I don't know what that means. The cell tower data, though, says that Donna and Nate were in two different locations, both moving, calling each other every few minutes for two straight hours over the time when Robert was being murdered in the kitchen. Wow. So he's like calling her being like, yeah, he's not. here yet. He's not here yet. Oh, shit, here it comes. Oh, shit, here it comes. I'll call you back when I'm done murdering him.

His car's coming in the garage now and click, I don't know. Or maybe he... He's in the garage now. Yeah. Maybe he called her to let her listen to the murder. Ooh, gross. That's possible, too. We don't know. We'll never know.

Approximately 11.33 p.m. Donna shows up at the Days Inn and Boardman all by herself. She paces around the lobby. the staff remembered her weird antsy demeanor. And then reserves a room for a week. This is when she reserves a room for a week. Books and prepays for the hotel for seven days. Time stamp of 1133 p.m.

Oh. So, okay. The days in is about 20 minutes south, by the way. Later on, Nate's fingerprints will be lifted from all over the inside of this hotel room. And so it's interesting. So it's weird that it's strange. Then after she books the room at 1133 p.m., she drives the 20 minutes back to her house, and by 12.01, she's found Robert and is on the phone with 911.

Oh. So that's the timeline. She came from a day's in, reserving a room for a week right to her house to find the body. And she was talking to a million times. Then the police learned that, holy shit, Robert's got $550,000 of. life insurance that goes right to fucking Donna. Uh-oh. Because at first they're like, yeah, there's motivation, but he doesn't seem to be real on top

of her about like affairs and shit. Seems like if she wants to have an affair, she can have one. She's allowed, yeah. Or whatever. But, you know, wanting to be with a guy is a motivation, but it's, you know, add 550 grand to make a new start with. Now you're talking about a whole different thing now. A man's dead and you are gifted over half a million dollars.

That's... Yeah. Ooh, we. That's a lot. So then at 3.38 a.m. is the phantom phone call also. The police are still there. The body had been removed. But, you know, they're still doing crime scene shit.

Monroe picked up the pause on the other end, then the hang up. And that was Donna's cell phone. So they were like, what the fuck? So she's at her brother's house, allegedly sleeping. Oh. So they were like, who's calling Donna's house at 3.38 in the morning while they're there processing the murder scene. Then they decide, hey, that day's in.

Since they were there for a few days and we know Nate was there because his fingerprints are everywhere, let's search all around that shit just in case. Let's just really go through it with a fine tooth comb. What they find is they go out in the dumpster and find a treasure trove here. Okay. They get, number one, his fingerprints from the inside of the room, which we know about. Also recovered a garbage bag in the dumpster at the most. hotel that came from the room.

The bag contains a bottle of peroxide, used bandages and gauze with blood all over them. Right. What? That we'll find out later as consistent with Nate Jackson's DNA. What happened, Nate? Bandages soaked in his own blood that would be matched to him with a frequency of one in 45 quatillion, quintillion, sorry. That's five billion, trillion?

What is that? Five times that. Holy. A billion. I'm sorry, a million trillion, or million, billion, quadrillion, quintillion. Quintillion. That's too many. That's too many.

It's a lot. It's unfathomable. It's so much. It's unfathomable. Yeah. The planet will be around for 10,000 more years and not many people will not live on it. That's a thousand trillion, right? That's 10,000 trillion.

Yeah, I was going to say that's about that. It's a crazy number. That would be what a quadrillion is. This is a quintillion. So they also do testing on Robert's car that they found in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. To determine that the blood on the visor contains a mixture consistent with both Robert Fingerhut and Nate Jackson's DNAs. Now their bloods are intermixed in the same place, which means you are there.

You're both bleeding at the same time together. Together, on top of each other. blood recovered from the trunk release of the car indicated a DNA mixture with a major profile consistent with Nate and a minor profile consistent with Robert. Not good. So mostly his blood, meaning he's bleeding and Rob's blood is in it and he touched something. That's good. He touched the trunk release.

Oh, boy. So December 20th, no one's in handcuffs yet somehow. No? But they're trying to see here because Donna is insisting, I don't know what you're talking about. So they're going to see, okay, Donna, you know what you're talking about. Maybe we can kind of bust them both at the same time. Yeah. They decided here that she was a witness or that she's a suspect, obviously.

They have the phone records, letters, all this type of shit. So they say, okay, basically this is either you're going to get a confession or a denial that looks worse. So they asked Donna, will you do something for us, the police, because we want to catch who murdered your husband. something for me. We are suspecting that guy, Nate, you're going out with. So, will you do something, call Nate and we'll record it

and try to get him to say incriminating shit? Yeah. Now, imagine the thoughts dancing in her fucking head when you're asked that. Fuck, okay, I got to call him. I'm trying to save my own ass, but at the same time, I don't really want to incriminate him

because then he can incriminate me. Fuck, this is a lot. Sharon Stone and Casino. Trying to call her friend and corroborate the salad. Yeah, yeah. And then at the same, totally, and then at the same fucking time from all this, like, I don't know, this is just a lot. Like, she's trying to do this.

And at the same time, she's got to be thinking, how have they not, they searched everything. Have they read all the letters? Right. That's not good. You know what I mean? She's got to be thinking that this has to be a trap for her too. That's what I mean. It's crazy.

So they're like, what the fuck? So they use a controlled call, get the suspect on the line, try to. get them to incriminate themselves. She agrees because she has no choice. So they give her a list of specific questions they want them to ask, they want her to ask Nate, basically of what happened that night. Tell me specifics of what happened. Oh, shit.

I want to know about it, basically. And don't tip him off that cops are on the phone. Exactly. He's going to say, fuck you mean, baby. Yeah. Talk about shit that they've probably discussed in detail sometime in the previous nine days. You know what I mean? So that's what's crazy.

So although I don't know how much she's been able to talk to him because there's, you know, they're trying to hide it. He's not going to. He's going to know. Well, yeah, Donna, the way they put it, the police said that Donna, quote, failed to ask Jackson the critical questions that police had instructed her to ask. She just didn't do what she was told. Yeah. She fed him softball questions and they said she was basically covering for him and also saying shit that kind of was coded. Not blatantly, but almost like if he had any inkling that the cops might be there,

she was trying to kind of be like tipping him off about it, not to talk. Well, that's a fucked situation because if she asks him those questions that they want her to ask, he's going to be like, what are you talking about? You know what happened. We killed him. Yeah. What the fuck? And it's going to incriminate her too.

That's why she can't ask the questions. Exactly. I mean, she's in a shit mess right now. She's so fucked. Imagine her heart beating. Oh, sure, I'll call him and you're calling. And this is like being in the principal's office and selling them to call your mom at work. You know what I mean? This is worse, though. Yeah. She's going to shit her pants, Jack. She's going to be pissed. It's very soon anyway. She'll be shitting her pants soon anyway. But it could happen from this now. December 21st, 2001. Donna is at home at the murder house at this point. 10 days after, cops come up and arrest her. Yeah. They arrest her for murder. They said she doesn't resist or even seem surprised. She doesn't go, what?

What do you mean? She's like, what took you so long? And then she did a drag of the cigarette. I wrote it down. I'm sorry, guys. I fucked up. Robert's son Michael said, when my father was murdered, we didn't even know about it until after he'd been buried. What?

She didn't tell. And I'm sorry, the cops should fucking tell them too. if the cops suspect If the cops suspect That's yeah They gotta talk to the rest No next of kin besides the person you think murdered him Yeah these people

Right They weren't notified that he was even dead Nevermind at a funeral Yeah if you've got a suspicion I guess you tell somebody And that they When they coordinate the The funeral or however you're gonna dispose

To the remains You probably assume they're gonna tell Everybody they can to make themselves look less guilty. I guess. But also, you think the cops would want to talk to Michael. Yeah. What's the background on this relationship? This is interesting. Yeah. Like, who the fuck wouldn't call the son to find out, especially when it first happened? You'd want to talk to everybody close to him and find out what's up. You'd think the son would be one of the people. Does he have any business associates? He doesn't like. He's been talking about. Look, your mom is Donna suspicious?

Yeah. Do you know if she's cheating on her? Right. Exactly. Do you have any suspicions about Donna? Do you think that she's this or whatever the fuck, but they don't even talk to him. That's fascinating. He said, when my father was murdered, we didn't even know about it until after he was buried. She put him in a pine box. Ah. Didn't even give him a good funeral.

No, she wants to keep all the money. Fuck. 550 grand in insurance. Yeah. That's what she's doing. When the detective said, your dad's dead, my first thought was Donna. Uh-huh. Okay.

So Nate is arrested as well. Wow. They raided the Wirt Street house where his friends lived where he was hiding out. And he had a bandage wrapped around his left index finger, which was obviously injured. Yeah. Okay. Now, they find inside this house a piece of a black leather glove. Okay.

There was a piece of the glove they'd find in the house. They found the gloves. But the index finger of the left glove. had been torn off and there was a red substance of blood. It was blood near the tear. Yeah. So it had been torn off like that. That's how his finger got hurt.

It probably was the one that was in the trigger and it probably got wrapped up in an argument or in the fight in the scuffle. That's very possible. It's on his left hand. I don't know if he's left hand or not, whatever it is, but that's possible because there's got to be something that could like cause that kind of thing. We'll get to it though. It's, it gets weirder here. So this isn't good. She had written about the gloves, and now they found the gloves.

Fleece-line black gloves. Oh, the fleece-line. The same thing. Very beautiful, as she put it. Beautiful fleece-clubs. Fleas-line gloves. Not good. Now, also a ski mask hat also, they said it's never been recovered any ski mask cat.

Now, the handcuffs are mentioned in the letters, but they don't appear to have been used during the actual murder. They couldn't find any marks on the wrists or anything like that, probably because Robert fought back too hard for the handcuff plan to work. He probably thought he'd pop up, put the gun on him and said, you know, and he would act like he was getting arrested. Yeah, put your hands behind your back on. I'm going to cuff you. And Robert said, we're in my garage.

You're not a cop. I'm fighting you. Fuck you. So they also have the receipt that Donham mailed to him in prison because he has the receipt for the gloves. They also found a pair of, of sneakers. Oh.

That match size and shred pattern perfectly to the footprints in the house in the blood. Oh, no. Remember those footprints? Yeah. That's not good. So they bring Nate in

and sit them down. Okay, Nate, you've been out of jail 12 days, you fucking idiot. Less than a fortnight, man. How did you do it? You've already banged an old lady and killed a guy. It's been a busy week for you.

You've been a jacuzzi top. Yeah, and 50-whatever is not an old lady. But when you're 27, anybody over 35, is an old lady. It's fascinating. You know what I mean? Anybody over 40 is like ancient when you're in your 20s. Certainly a thought, yeah.

Yeah. So during Nate's interrogation here, he said that he and Robert had known each other for a couple of years. Okay. His first words when they sat him down was, quote, I just didn't mean to do it, man. Oh, boy. That's not good. No. Do what, man?

Yeah. Yeah. I just didn't mean to do it. He kept saying. that just didn't mean to do it man just didn't mean to do it um they said so you knew robert he said yeah we knew each other for a couple of years and they said well when's the last time you saw him and he said the day he got killed on the 11 oh but earlier in the day i didn't do i didn't see him late no no earlier than that oh i sold him some weed earlier that day oh so it's like you got out of jail

on the 9th and by the 11th you had already got a racket going you've already got enough weed to sell Like, you've already gathered up, you know, a distribution amount of weed here. What's going on? He said that Robert had given him a ride back to Robert's own house so Nate could, quote, chill before he started a job at the bus terminal the next day. Okay. Now, like we said, Robert is known to hire ex-convicts. True, yeah. And everyone knows that.

So that's Nate's story is I was hanging out with Robert because he was going to hire me. So he brought me to his own house to chill. To chill. To chill. Well, you know, wait for the next day. He said, once they got inside, Robert started yelling at him and throwing racial slurs at him like crazy. Wouldn't stop dropping the N-word on him. Called me lazy.

Yeah. Amongst other things. Yeah, but you know. Amongst other letters. And this, by the way, goes, everybody says Roberts never used a racial slur in his life because he's not, the son said he's a least prejudiced person you're ever going to meet. That's just not what he's about. He goes the opposite. way.

He goes the opposite way. He tries to take people in, basically, and, you know, whatever. And also a bunch of other disparaging things. He said, then Robert pulled a revolver on him. Oh. It's not enough that I call you the N-word. I need to point a gun in your face, too. So he pulled a revolver on him, and he said there was a struggle for the revolver,

and that's how Nate's finger got fucked up. He got shot in the finger during the struggle. Oh. Yeah. So Nate said he wrestled the gun away from Robert and Nate shot Robert twice during the tussle, as he put it. Though he wasn't sure where he wasn't sure where he shot Robert and he didn't and whether he didn't know whether Robert was still breathing when Nate ran out and took Robert's car and took off. I mean, you shoot somebody in the top of the head. You know they're not breathing.

Nope. That's a bad story. First of all, he said he only shot him twice. I shot him three times. Where'd the second gun come from? That's the other thing. That means you brought a gun as a guy that just got out of prison. Yep.

You had a firearm after you've been down for a felony. So that's not, and he were selling weed with a firearm too, which is even more charges. I would like to say I did not murder a man, but I could have and I was selling weed. And I was selling weed because I did have a gun. Yeah. It wasn't his house. But he said he was still breathing when he left, which probably is not true, judging by the shot to the head. Yeah, there's no way.

So, yeah, this is the finger that's fucked up as the missing glove finger. It's all in there. And the glove has his blood in it. It all matches up there. So what's wrong with Nate's story here? Well, number one, three shots, not twice. Right. Okay.

Second, the bullets were fired from a different gun than the 38 found by the body. That was a fully loaded revolver found next to the rock. Robert's body. So Robert never pulled a revolver, or even if he did, he certainly never had a chance to use it. Exactly. Third, how would Robert have shot Nate in the finger with a gun that was found unfired? Right. How does that work? The bullet that hit Nate's finger probably came from the same gun that killed Robert, meaning it was Nate's own gun. Nate either accidentally shot himself during the assault or shot through the glove while attacking Robert. That's probably true. That's very easily could have. if he's wrestling around with it.

And, yeah. Also, Nate had spent the previous three months writing letters and saying he was going to murder Robert as soon as he got out. So that's not one. That's not good here. And yeah, and why does a ski, why would he need a ski mask? That makes no sense. Right. What do you need that if you're about to murder a man?

Yeah. And also the saying he had approached Robert about getting a job at the Youngstown bus terminal. Yeah. And they're saying, well, we know that he hires recently released felons, but he's going to ask his girlfriend's husband for a job. That seems risky. Yeah. Yeah. That seems very. And bring a gun to do it? And bring a gun to do it.

Just in case it, the interview. I've never had an interview go that bad for a job. Or I had to fucking, I had to pull steel at the end of that shit and be like, what's up, mother? No, I'm backing out. You fucking stay where you're sitting. I'm backing out of here. 725 an hour. And I have fucking failed.

of interviews. I'm not going any lower, bitch. No. No, I will not clean the fucking the oil that we fry shit in. No, that's where I draw the line. Yeah. So, Nate has asked at this point,

hey, this is self-defense. And Nate's like, absolutely, total self-defense. And they said, do us a favor. We're going to videotape it. I'd like you to, this is just audio recorded. Yeah. You'd like to do a videotape. Okay.

You should let us know what's going on. Let's do it again. Yeah. Nate pauses and said that, I'm through talking. I'm done. And then said, this is amazing.

I don't have time to just keep going over this over and over again. I don't have time. Where the fuck do you have to be? You just confessed to killing a man, whether in self-defense or not, you're going to be here for quite a while. Your schedule is not important. Yeah.

So this is interesting. Now, this is from the newspaper. They say in the midst of a long and rambling statement on videotape, Jackson says, quote, I talk to a lawyer or something, then later says, we, we just sum it up, like I said, man. When I talk to my lawyer, man, you're going to know what I'm saying. Okay. So that's what he says. Now, under the Fifth Amendment, though, you must clearly ask for, you can't just mention the word lawyer.

We see this all the time where people try to get out of statements by saying, I said maybe I need a lawyer. Right. Well, that's not, I won't answer questions without my lawyer. Yeah, I want a lawyer, you have to say. Not answering any more questions. It has to be very clear. So the officers just continued to ask questions, and he continued to answer them. And making himself look incredibly guilty.

Now, you have two people that look real fucking guilty at this point. Very bad. Nate is, they're going to have both go to trial, by the way. Oh. Which is crazy. And neither of them are talking. Neither of them are flipping on each other. Neither of them are making a deal.

They say they have enough evidence. where they don't want to make a deal with either one of them. We don't need a deal. Unless you want to just plead guilty to everything and get the maximum, we're not making any deal with you. Right. If you just want to get life in prison, we'll take the death penalty off the table. Then go ahead.

Yeah. But they don't want to do that because they want the death penalty on the table. They do. They do. So, Nate, both of them are charged with two counts of aggravated murder. Ooh. here. Both counts contain two death specific

specifications pursuant to the law here. One charging aggravated murder during the commission of an aggravated burglary. One charging aggravated murder during the commission of an aggravated robbery. Took the car. Death penalty shit. Yeah. And plain

and simple. So the state's strategy at trial for Nate, Nate's trial is first, is show the letters. because with him they have DNA that he was there they have everything.

He can't believe they got the DNA. It's shocking. Show the letters. Let them hear all the jail recordings. Let them watch the videotape. Let them listen to the confession

from the interrogation. Present DNA. Show them fingerprint evidence. It's like every form of evidence from like the beginning of time until modern times. They have everything from witnesses showing where they were

to DNA placing them within a quintillion of what the fuck, you know, of people there are. Also, here's a confession of a man saying he's going to murder, that he murdered a man. And here's a letter from the day before saying he's going to go murder this man. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it so we can be together. Oh, boy. So they also present Donna's statements. Yeah.

Saying that she barely remembered him and all that kind of shit. So they said this is bullshit. And the prosecution says that. Nate in writing says he was going to come to the house and shoot Robert in the fucking head. In writing, he said that. And then he came to the house and guess what he did? He shot that man in the fucking head.

In the fucking head. The defense is just self-defense. That's what they say. They put on the videotape statement. They argue that Nate's, you know, whole shit here, while it doesn't look good, the letters that he was sending from jail, they don't look great. But they're just the venting of a frustrated lover. They don't actually represent a plan.

They're just wishful thinking. It's a man that's just frustrated, James. Never mind the fact that the plan actually happened and he's covered in DNA. That doesn't matter. Calm down. He's a very frustrated man. Lover. Not man.

Lover. Yeah, frustrated lover. They argue that the planning conversations were mostly Donna's idea. And Nate was more or less going along the satisfier, which if you listen to the recordings, it's kind of the opposite. She seems involved, but he seems like, yo, I can't wait to do this. and she's like not wanting to talk about it on the phone. Maybe just calm down.

I got this, man. So they emphasized that Nate was the one who got physically wounded, the finger injury. And that the timing of the killing, rather than at some remote location with a trunk and handcuffs, suggest the plan wasn't the plan. And Nate was just reacting in the moment. They said they might have made all these plans, but that's not the plan that came to fruition. They didn't say, I'm going to get shot in the finger and then I'm going to shoot this guy and run away. That's not the plan. so it's obvious.

Now the state's response is, who fucking cares? Yeah, sometimes plans get fucked up. Letters, DNA, mixed together, intermingling. Shut the fuck up. They said, even if you believe every word of the defense, believe him. He said, go ahead, believe every word

that the original plan changed and there was a struggle in the house. Nate still came into Robert's home. Yes. The husband of the woman he's having an affair with, armed while Robert was not home and waited for him to come home. Mm-hmm.

He was lying in wait for a man to come in the goddamn door. They said that by himself with the gun, with the gloves, with the letters. That's aggravated burglary right there if no one dies. They said, you know, and killing Robert in the course of an aggravated burglary is felony murder. Felony murder with prior calculation and designed is a capital aggravated murder. This is a death penalty case and fuck him is what they say. So that's what they present, all of the evidence that we just told you. The verdict comes in here.

He is found guilty of aggravated murder with both death penalty specifications. Everything. Just cleared the boards there. During sentencing doesn't help much either. Not a lot of mitigating here. They say, you, sir, may fuck off death penalty for Nate. They give him the death penalty. Now they bring Donna up.

Uh-oh. very few women in their late 50s get sentenced to death. True. This just doesn't happen. We generally as a society don't look at a woman with, you know, beginning stages of osteoporosis and say she's a threat to society. Right. Forever. We need to kill her.

Yeah. This lady writes down whatever Jamie Lee Curtis tells her makes her poop better. She's like, what's that? That's a lot. Say again, Jamie? Say again, because I'm getting some. who, yeah. Post menopause, I got to tell you. Yeah. So Dona's trial exact same charges.

Yeah. Everything's the same. Oh, she asks for... She's going to trial. She asks for a change of venue. Begging. Because of not only all the publicity from the case, but then Nate's trial just happened there too. So anyone who didn't hear about it before, they certainly know about it now. And the judge goes, I don't think so. I think we're good here. I think we'll hang. Yeah.

And it's, by the way, the same judge that did Nate. case. So we know what his predilection is for here. So yeah. Okay. First of all, how crazy is Donna? Well, let's find out how crazy Donna is. All right. This is Michael, Michael Fingerhunt, the son. Mikey Fingers over here, they call him in the mob. So Mikey Fingers here, Robert's son, this poor guy, Jesus Christ, he didn't even know his, that's horrible. He didn't even get to lay his father to rest. It's so fucked. He didn't even get to see him going to ground. He didn't get to put him in a decent coffin. Didn't even know until they back. He didn't even know he was dead. Yeah. Wow. He said that Donna

Roberts was quote, evil and manipulative. He said during the trial, he was there. Donna talked to him, turn around to talk to Michael, and pointed out the news media in the courtroom, looked at Robert. Not only the news media, but everybody else that was in the courtroom and the whole gallery. looked at Robert's son Michael and said, they're all here for me, Michael. Yeah. Like to support me, she put it. They're all here to support me.

Why aren't you? So Michael said that he looked at her and said, they're all here for me. That's who all these people are here for. The victim, not you, stupid. She's like all these people here to watch, they're all here for me. No.

They're here to make sure you go to jail forever, you fucking idiot. But that's how crazy she is. She looked to the victim's son and said they're all here for me, Michael. What kind of a sick lunatic says that? Dorsesicistic maniac. And he hates, he said, I've known her for 40 fucking years. She's a psychopath.

I know her. She's nuts. He said in like 2020s. Like she's a fucking whack job. So there's also a motion to suppress the evidence. Oh? Because she said it was okay to search. She argues that the police exceeded the scope of her.

consent to search the home during the investigation of the murder and that the trial court erred in failing to suppress her letters to Jackson, which she wanted suppressed and they're not here. They're doing that. They were originally let in. She's appealing that thing, the pretrial admissions. I don't want the conversations between me and a convicted murderer in my trial. I mean, that sounds bad, right?

She contends that a reasonable person would have believed that the police would be searching her house, but not a vehicle in the garage that was not at her home at the time of the offense. So that car, she's saying that car wasn't even there when the murder happened. She drove up later. So why would the cops search that car during a search of the property? It's here now. And that's where they found the bag, which is, I got to give her lawyer credit. It's a clever attempt.

It's a good thing. It's better than just, it's not fair. You know what I mean? It's something. But they said, I don't think so. That's ridiculous. The state presents several witnesses who testify that Donna clearly and directly gave police open-ended consent to search the premises. I don't care.

Get that bastard that killed my robbers, what she said, then signed all the paperwork. She didn't know they were going to do it. She did not expect them to get in that car. No. Fuck no. Go ahead. Search my house. It's not in there anyway.

Several officers testified that they heard, do whatever you have to do to catch the bastard. All sorts of. Another detective said, she heard her say, I don't care what you have to do. I want you to get the person that did this to my Robert. To my Robert, quote,

whatever you have to do, search the whole place. Just find the guy. This doesn't sound like she's limiting their searching anyway. Search here, but not there. And also, he further testified that Donna gave him him permission to look anywhere on the property to find clues to her murder, who murdered her husband. Roberts' brother also testified. He said that his sister, oh, I'm sorry, Donna's brother, Roberts' brother, Roberts' brother.

God, that's confusing. You have no idea how confusing this was to put together. I can't imagine. This is the nightmare. Her brother testified stating that his sister was very cooperative with police and did not rebuff them in any way. According to the brother, when police told her they wanted to search through the house for clues.

By the way, he thinks he's helping her. They're saying, oh, she was cooperative with the police. No, no, no, no. They said, well, what did she say to police? And the brother said, she said, do what you got to do? So even her own brother fucks are there. She said, go ahead and search everything. I mean, yeah, she said, just do what you got to do.

Really? I mean, tear it apart. If there's a bag with anybody's name on it, look in it. Read everything, please. So, her particular one, her excuse for the ASAPA amen letter here. Yeah. Hoof. She, good God.

Do whatever. It's a lot. So the defense team tried to argue that this passage was figurative. Oh. This wasn't literally. No? It was venting. Hyperbole, they said.

It's all just silly. The kind of thing anybody might say about an annoying X. Yeah. Murder him ASAP. Is that amen? For a. Yeah. So the defense, it's their.

turn. And they pull a Corey Richens, Lori Vallow. They call zero witnesses. Defense fucking rests. Who are they going to call? He didn't prove nothing. Nope. That's what they tried to do. Unless you call Donna, you got nobody to talk to. Even her own brother fucked her and told her, told the truth. So they put on no defense, no case, no argument. I mean, they do cross-examination. Everybody don't get me wrong, but they don't present any case. Nope, they don't call any expert. They don't put Donna on the stand. And it goes to the verdict. It goes to the jury.

What are they going to say here, you think? You know what I mean? Yeah. They find her fucking guilty of everything. Yeah. All the charges. Sentencing comes along and there is all the aggravating factors that they put forth, which are too numerous to list off here. And I won't even bother listing them.

You guys understand what's going on. Yeah. Then there's the mitigation part of the hearing. What do they got? If you don't know, that's her. turn to come out and say, I'm such a great person that you don't want to kill me. I'm valuable in society. Please don't kill me.

She says, I'm not given a fucking thing of mitigation. Fuck you people. What? Yeah. She says, I want the death penalty, eat shit. That's what she tells them, essentially. Oh, she's trying to challenge them. She told, I don't want the lawyers.

She told her lawyers and the court, I don't want them putting anything on that might convince the jury not to kill me. me. I don't want any mitigation. So the trial court has to hold a competency hearing to make sure she's not nuts when she does this. They want to make sure she understands what she's doing. The judge explains the purpose of mitigating and the consequences of waiving it. It's all the prosecution's shit at that point. The trial counsel describes for the judge what evidence could be presented if Donna allowed it. This is what we have. Her family, people who love her saying she's a nice person, all this shit. And she can sit there. They can dress her in a grandmotherly outfit. Yeah. You know, say all sorts of nice things about her. She bakes cookies and all that shit. No one's going to kill her.

You know what I mean? Yeah. The council also notes, for the record, they personally and professionally disagree with Donna's decision to waive her right to mitigation, but they believe she's mentally competent to make it. It's her right. So they bring in a psychiatrist, Dr. Thomas Eberle, and he evaluates Donna. He concludes that Donna's decision to forego mitigation was rationally made.

It might not be a rational decision, but it was made with rational thought. Sure. He finds no psychiatric or psychological abnormality that would impair her capacity to make the decision. She's competent, knows what she's doing. The court has to allow it. The judge asked her directly, do you understand that by waiving the presentation of mitigating evidence, this jury has very little to go on in coming up with anything other than the death penalty? You get that, right?

Yeah. She said, quote, that is what I hope for. I know what I'm doing and I know why. Thank you for asking. I appreciate it. I love the little. Thank you for asking. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I'm good. I don't want any soda, but thank you for asking. That's hilarious. I appreciate your offer. I'll take some murder, please. Wow. There is an unsworn statement she'd like to make.

Yeah? Okay. She most of the time this would be to ask for Remorse show remorse ask for mercy do all that kind of shit Even to talk to her family to their family to say they're sorry Whatever the fuck it is Donna uses her Wow uses her unsworn statement to speak for over an hour

What? Number one which is a long time Headline set in court This is fucking amazing Now during her her hour-long speech, she presents nothing of any mitigating evidence, spends the time complaining about the media coverage, how people have treated her, and just basically she's trying to write all the social wrongs she believes have happened to her over the course of this.

She spent time criticizing the news media coverage, criticizing the jurors. Oh, M. Who, by the way, is their decision to decide, I mean, the judge eventually has to agree with them, but they're going to recommend a sentence here. They're going to murder you, lady. She called them young and experienced people who don't read newspapers or watch the news. Outstanding.

She said they're a bunch of dummies and they're too young. Like your boyfriend reads the news or newspapers. He's in his 20s. Yeah, these people are older than him, right? Yeah, we've got a jury of your boyfriend's peers here for you. That's what are we talking about. It's a jury of his peers. Not yours because they'd have a hard time staying awake for the whole thing honestly.

They need a little nap during the day. They're home watching Perry Mason. It's about Perry Mason's on. That's what's going on. So she also, in addition to shit-talking the jurors, which I've never seen before. That's crazy. In this situation. Usually they leave the jury out of it.

Then also frequently referred to her wealth. What? Kept making, bringing up her wealth, talking about how she had 50. 52 charge cards and she had all this money. Charge cards came up. Dude, she's just like doing everything to make the jury possibly hate her. Let me talk. Let me show you how rich I am.

Let me call you young and experienced morons. Let me talk shit about everybody. She brought up 52 charge cards. She did. She did. This is her, please don't kill me. I'm rich. I've got a belt on DNG.

Wow. Yeah. She also used the time. to berate one of the prosecution witnesses. Uh-huh. Frank Reynolds, who's a bus terminal employee who saw her with Nate and overheard him, overheard her Ask Robert for $3,000 on February 10th. She took offense at his testimony about her social standing.

That's what she was mad at. How dare you act like I don't have access to $3,000? I'm wealthy. I have 52 charge cards. I don't need his $3,000. Frank Reynolds is DeVito's character name. It's always sunny. Yeah, it's always sunny.

Absolutely. Well, he works at a bus station in Youngstown. That's fucking hilarious. So then she tells the jury this. Quote, I will not provide any mitigating evidence. I will not. You are bound by law to give me one sentence, the death penalty. You have no other choice.

That is what I'm asking you to do. because that is the right thing to do. And then she sits down. By law. By law. The judge, wow. I mean, this judge, the judge noted in a sentencing that he also detected self-promotion in her hour-long statement to jurors. She thought this was like, this is fucking TikTok for her.

Like, she's going to, this is Instagram. Look what I got. She's going to throw her weight around this from 52 charge cards. 52. She said also that she frequently referred to her. Well, one witness, wow. Also, the judge said that you berated a witness for just being a witness. They just saw something, and you berated him for it.

And he also says, it seems these mischaracterizations of her social status were more upsetting to Roberts than the guilty verdict against her for complicity to commit murder. You, ma'am may fuck off and death penalty for you, too. She got it. There you go. She's the first woman to be sentenced to death in Shrumbull County in modern history. After. Whatever the fuck that means. Yeah.

Wow. So her and Nate both go in a death row. Wow. Now, in prison, he was at the Mansfield Correctional Institute. Later, the Chilicothe Correctional Institute. She was sent to the Ohio Reformatory for Women in Marysville, Ohio. And they're never allowed to communicate after that. Ha!

They never saw each other heard from each other again. Now, she appeals. Really? Okay? Now, they affirm her convictions for aggravated murder, aggravated burglary, and aggravated robbery here. But they're saying her own defense lawyer would explain to the Ohio Supreme Court later that Donna had a martyr complex. She's a martyr. She's one of these.

They said that the lantern, the student newspaper at Ohio State would report that Donna told the court she wanted the death penalty as a matter of racial parity. What? As a means of proving racial injustice because as a white Jewish woman converted, as a white Jewish woman, she expected the same punishment as her black accomplice. Yeah. As my young black accomplice. That's right. I should get the same thing.

All right. And you can choose me to do that if you'd like. Yeah. So they ordered that the trial judge on remand to afford. Roberts, her right to allocute and to personally review and evaluate evidence, way aggravating circumstances against any relevant mitigating sentences or circumstances and evidence anew or determine the, a new, the appropriateness of the death penalty. And they find that they overturn the death penalty.

Really? They overturned the death penalty on her, saying that it wasn't, the jury didn't get to properly weigh aggravating and mitigating. but then anybody could just do that and get their sentence overturned. That's the point. That's crazy. She didn't want to mitigate shit.

She said that. She went up there and made an asshole out of herself instead. Well, she did it because she had a martyr complex at the time. She wanted to show that white Jewish ladies can go to jail same as black guys. Can get the needle the same as black guys. 2007. She's the only woman on Ohio's death row, by the way. Oh.

Just hanging out. She's allowed out of herself from 8 a.m. to 11 a.m. and then from 430 to 5.30, which is actually more than most death row. Yeah. It's usually 23 hours lockdown. That's right. She remained on death row even after the court vacated her sentence and ordered a new sentencing. They say that, yeah, they said now all of a sudden, too, she's saying that she had mental problems and this is mitigating circumstances. Now she puts in court documents and in hearings comments about how she was sexually abused by a cousin and lived in a very, very abusive home on a farm and later suffered mental injuries and multiple car crashes. Oh. Yeah.

That's what she says. Bouncing off things. Every car she's in bounces off. Multiple head injuries. I was very abused and my cousin molested me. So. Those are abused me. I think they were the same age because she said sexual.

abused, not molested. So they're probably similar age. Some important information. None of that makes you kill a man when you're 57, I don't think. Are you sure? Um,

no. Michael, the son, Robert's son, said in the nearly 40 years I've known Donna, it's never come up. Meaning the sexual assaults and it's like, which you wouldn't tell your stepson that your cousin molested you when you were nine, probably.

but you probably tell her, tell him about abuse or head injuries that you've had over the course. In the 40 years that he's known her, has her car bounced off shit a lot? Well, no, he said, well, that's the other thing. She said she suffered a head injury in a 1999 car accident. But Michael said between the time of the accident and the murder, she never claimed a head injury. She never went to the hospital for it. She never said she had an injury. She didn't tell anybody about it.

By the 2007 hearing, she claimed the taped conversations between her and general. And now she has new excuses for those were, quote, just my imagination. What? Just my imagination. That's right. That's all it is. If it's your imagination, then it's my imagination because it fucking exists. Oh, no.

And also, not only were my imagination, they were stories I was writing. What? Now she's pulling a Corey Richon saying the walk the dog letter was just a story. She said this is a story, a story, quote, like the one she'd written while she was in school. Oh, boy. Just as, you know, fantasy writings and that she never meant for anything bad to happen. Now, on remand, the trial court afforded her her right to allocution.

And one week later, after asking her whether she had anything further to say and hearing an argument from the defense counsel, they say, you, ma'am, may fuck off a death penalty again. Hang on to it. You got that for you. Go put that in your pocket for later. Yeah, that's good. You're going to need that later. 2013 appeals again, obviously.

She doesn't like this at all. Concluding that the court failed to consider her allocution and determining her sentence during the proceeding on remand. So they vacate the death sentence again and put her back for resentencing. 2014, she's back in court. He hears the judge hears arguments on the defense motion. He denies the motion on the grounds that the instructions in this case regarding the proceedings on a man precluded granting the motion and that he had already considered and rejected Robert's arguments.

It's not that we didn't listen. We just already heard that and said, don't work, no. You already brought this to us. It's not new shit. Yeah. He then said he carefully reviewed the court record, the guilt and penalty phases of the trial and say that he said he announced that he had, quote, given no deference to the prior decisions of the original trial judge.

Yeah. And outweighed that the aggravates and announced that the aggravating circumstances, outweigh the mitigating circumstances by proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And that he incorporated these findings into a sentencing opinion and says, you, ma'am, may fuck off death penalty again. Keep getting it. Now, on the night Nate was arrested, he's appealing based on something too. The night he was arrested.

He was advised of his Miranda rights on the ride to the jail. Then they said, without being questioned, he denied. killing anyone and asked whether he had the right to an attorney at any time. They told him, yes, we told you your rights. At the jail, a short while after questioning began, Jackson agreed to allow police to videotape his statement. He did not ask for a lawyer or decline to answer questions. He just said a couple things, but then kept talking.

As the videotape began, the detectives informed him of his rights and gave him a waiver of rights form, which he signed on camera. On the tape, he claimed that he did not mean to kill Rob, and essentially claimed he had acted in self-defense. They said, in making his arguments to the trial court to suppress his statement to police, Jackson maintained the police persisted in questioning him, even though he asserted several times his rights to say nothing and have an attorney present. Although he admitted signing the waiver, he claimed that no one had read him his rights beforehand.

Meanwhile, it's on camera. They said, in the midst of a long and rambling statement, he said, I talked to a lawyer or something. we just sum it up like I said, man. When I talk to my lawyer, man, you know what I'm saying? That's not asking for a lawyer. And they said under the Fifth Amendment, you must clearly ask for a lawyer. 2017, Donna Ohio Supreme Court affirms her death sentence, six to one.

2018, the U.S. Supreme Court denies to hear about it. So she's technically scheduled for execution, but Ohio's executions have been on moratorium. for years due to the unavailability of lethal injection drugs. And this isn't fucking Louisiana. They don't just go, you know, get whatever runs that weed whacker. We'll stick that in. That's not, you know, they actually have to. Slam his nuts and a sliding door till he die.

He'll die eventually. 2001, Roberts files a Donna files of federal habeas corpus petition in the U.S. District Court for the District of Northern Ohio, asserting 15 grounds for relief. Death sentence stands again. When is she going to stop? 2024, the Sixth Circuit Court vacates Nate's sentence. Really?

Okay. May 2025, judge rules in favor of Donna's habeas petition. Donna's death sentence is once again in jeopardy of being vacated. Now, as they both face resentencing, hearings. Both of them have been vacated. As of right now, if you look up their current Department of Corrections, Ohio thing, they both say they're in for life without parole and life are their two sentences. What both of them say. So right now, they are both not up for the death penalty, but they could have it reinstated. Okay. And Donna is now

in her 80s. 80s, guys. I don't want that to happen. No, we can't execute an 85-year-old lady. We can't. I don't want that to happen at all. Nobody wants anything like that. We'll just wait a little while. She'll keel over while fucking getting a doily. Yeah, it's coming.

Don't worry. It's going to happen. She's the only woman on Ohio's death row still. I never want, oh my God, because somebody's got to witness that. You don't want to see that. Nobody wants to watch a very old lady get murdered. I mean, find it. Getting the needle in is going to be real easy.

Or hard. You might tear that arm apart. Yeah, you might have to rip it up. Wow. So in the media, in the year since the convictions here, the case has been featured on deadly women. Jesus. Also snapped killer couples. Yeah, because she's a woman.

Yeah. Calls from the inside, season two, and for my man. Yeah. Those are the names of the things that have been in. Nathaniel, like we said, he's in the 50s. He's born in 72. So yeah, he's going to be 54 years old at this point. He is in the Ross Correctional Institution currently.

And he is A440891 is his number. Donna is W.055276. And she is in the Ohio Reformatory for Women. That, everybody, is Howland Township, Ohio. and one crazy goddamn bad shit bonker story. That woman's 82, James. Yeah, she's 82. I think we'll just say, just life without.

How much more time are we talking here? I mean, it's not much long. Let's not waste money on all these appeals. She's going to be dead in the middle of these appeals. Who cares? She might be dead tomorrow. Any minute. She can drop dead.

She's in her 80s, for Christ's sake. So there you go. If you like that episode, do us a favor. Get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. It helps tremendously. when you do that. So thank you for doing that, honestly, everybody.

Do that, please. Definitely head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for live shows, people. Let's do it. Looks like Royal Oak has sold out in Detroit. So May 29th and May 30th, Buffalo Royal Oak, both sold out. Thank you, everybody. You're fucking awesome.

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Then new ones every other week. So that is, including this week, which you get for crime and sports. We're going to talk about that weird Christian television power team that was around in the 90s where they would, oh, they would like bench press 400 pounds and then go, thank you, Jesus. And like the brains would be popping out of their heads and they're ripping books and shit. It's crazy. And then later on, of course, the guy who ran it got into some trouble and then the whole thing fell apart, obviously. Then for small town murder, internet salad time. We're going to go around the internet.

We're going to find everything that's going on in the world that has nothing to do with politics, though, because we feel like you probably hear enough of that shit. So we're going to go and we're going to find all the silly shit that doesn't matter and we're going to make fun of it. That's all. It's a fun day. Can't wait for you guys to do that. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And in addition to that, you get a shout out. Well, first you get everything we put out all ad free as well.

Everything we put out all the shows. Then in addition to that, you get a shout out, which is right now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most one. wonderful, wonderful people in the world who would never, ever stand up and beg for the death penalty while yelling at the jurors. They're not that stupid. Our listeners are smart. Jimmy, hit me with them right fucking now. This was executive producer Gary Howard in Livingston, Texas.

Simon Shed. Simon. It's his birthday. Hey, happy birthday, Simon, Simon and Jordan. We miss you over here on this side of the pond. Yeah, we'll see you soon. Winter Steinway as well. Thank you all so much for everything you did.

Other producers this week. Peyton Meadows, Monsanya. It's his birthday as well. Happy birthday. Jesus. They are from the other side of the pond. He's going to come over to Terrytown for Christ's sake. That's going to be wild.

We'll have to show him a good time after the show. He's been a fan since like the second crime and sports episode. Go have drinks with this man. We got to have a split one back with him. Scott Richard. He's in Maricopa, Arizona. Oh boy. Poor bastard.

I'm sorry. Happy hours in Sedalia. Missouri this week. Good for you, buddy. Yeah, about that. Good to see you. Watch out for tornadoes. Janice. Janice Hill. Desmond Thorne. Yeah, she's great. She's been on there. Thank you, Janice Hill.

Claire Tiscorina, Tiscorna. Yeah. Tashara? No. Deschornia. No. Descornia. Okay. Becky Kensling.

Elliot Batello, Jason Husson, whose son. Maritza Hovinar Hovener Hovener Athena Ray Elijah Glazer Andrew Hagland Angie Heinz

Beef Baby Boy Yeah Sarah Carlton Shauna or Shona Young Joseph Hardigan Lou would know last name Elliot Clark Shock Jello

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Mariela for a Formachone, and then also, she got two. Yeah, that's two patrons for Mariela Formatjone. The Coney, perhaps. Germinder, Germinder, Ronda, Ronda, Ronda, Jannahua. Yep. Jeanette, what is it? Say, Ron Howard? What was that? No, Germinder. Ronda Hauer. Oh, Ron De Hauer. I thought you said Ron Howard.

I was like, right? Yeah. Maybe that's what it is in another language. Matt Howard's. Matreon. Wow, not bad. Jeanette Midland, Jordan Jocelson, Josselson, Jocelyn, Katie Zolo, Tasha Nite, Ann Perry, Leslie Rowland, Skip,

with no last name, Amy T, Elijah, or Eraheta, Erahita, Haley, Kirtner, Cameron Bullard, Gregory Barachi, Michelle, Tala Rican, Larissa Gilmore, Joy Ritter Huizinga, Private Butters. Yeah, probably not a person. Mikey Indigo. Nate Zodi.

Narisa, Milo Hobb, T. Money, Oscar Borg, Elizabeth would know last name. Jennifer Squire, Glennette Gienessa, would know the last name. Ted Fred. Fred Bread. Danielle Christensen,

Brooks Patterson, Krista Rittinger Amanda S, Brooke Crowley Lex Lucifer Amy Schroff Brenna Kromka Laura would know last name

Casey Hunley Melanie Kronin Nikki would know last name Alex would know last name Hope Llewellyn Yep Lou Allen Jennifer Simpson

Karen Kora Koraever Stephanie would know last name Melissa Spittle Damian Siegler Jacqueline Lamar Aaron Miller soggy head of lettuce

Tiffany Hamm Christy Pietella Piotella Joe Mama Probably a Not a real person I'm sorry

You never know Jimmy Lance Nijel Williams Croy Alohicious Pockets Roasty

Shins I don't know what that means It's a bunch of words Susan With no last name Don Livingston Sarah Small Chris Rouse

Susan Jarin Joreen Max would know the last name Chris Omara Wyatt Wade Gail Briggs Dom the Blind. Oh, that's Dom. Maddie G. Joe would know the last name.

Christina Benjamin, Michelle Derringer. Annie would know last name. Terah would know last name. Tara would know last name. Cora Jane, three rats in a trench coat. John Bella. Aaron Arnold. Tammy would know last name. Erica Collins, Jessica Freeman. Aaron Hardman.

Denise McLeod. Sarah Lundgren. Anna Russell would know last. Randy would no last. Randy with no last name. Anna's last name is Russell. That's true. Holly T.

Kayla Abert, Zachary Cannon, Susan, Surf, Asunshin, Sunshine with no E. Witt. Brendan Gagos.

Yeah. Brad Warren, Chelsea Ball, Kara Brigham, Brigham, Kelly McKenzie, Madeline Fahey, Rachel Hayes,

Doug Griffey, Jessica Ward, Leslie Battler, Kelsey Scherzinger, Andrea Leonardo, Megan Farrow, Quran France, Terrence, nope, that's Tarika, De Oliveira, Michelle Olsch, Melissa Surly, Seril, Jeremy Mazes, Timo would know last name, Karen would no last name, Owen Butkovich, Eliza, Elisa, it's probably Elisa, right? Barnes, Lauren would know last name, Ren Milner, Trisha Liptrap. Okay. Rachel Francis, Rachel Deck, Peter Pants, probably not. Harley Elliott, Stephanie Lasko, and every person that patrons this show.

Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody, so much. God damn it. Thank you. You guys are the best. We appreciate everything you do for us. Thank you so much. If you'd like to follow us on social media or find out any other thing about us,

shut up and give me murder as the place to go. And it's all redone the site. It's very user-friendly. It looks really great. So get in there, get some tickets, follow us, do all of that shit. Keep coming back. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye.

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