Small Town Murder - Medicine Made Me Murder - St. George, Utah

Episode Date: June 4, 2026

This week, in St. George, Utah, when a woman's friend finds the woman's house empty, but with pools of blood on the carpet, and a bullet hole in the window, a massive search begins. It's a real mystery, with everyone wondering where the body could've been moved. A piece of a specific plant, stuck in the woman's tires, leads police to her body, and the horrible discovery of what happened to her, after she died. An unlikely suspect emerges, and he has an excuse that will make this case national news. He claims that the medicine Prozac made him a cold blooded killer... and worse!!   Along the way, we find out that dinosaurs are definitely extinct, that the 1980's was a good time to name your cat "Rambo", and that when you have 14 different drugs in your system, it's pretty difficult to blame one of them for your problems!!   New episodes, every Wednesday & Friday nights!! Check us out on VIDEO Wednesday and Friday evenings on Netflix! www.netflix.com/smalltownmurder Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions!   Follow us on... instagram.com/smalltownmurder facebook.com/smalltownpod   Also, check out James & Jimmie's other shows, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts!!

This week, in St. George, Utah, a woman disappears from her home, leaving behind only blood and a bullet hole in a window, only to be found murdered in the worst possible way. The case unfolds into a national news story with the accused murderer using a very new, very unique defense. But will it work? Welcome to Smalltown Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigal. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wiseman.

Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another insane, crazy, wild edition of Small Town Murder. It has been crazy lately. It's only going to get crazier, everybody. Here it goes. We have a wild story for you today. Before we get to that, real quick, definitely head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for live shows, also merchandise, new stuff up as well over there. But definitely get your tickets after the summer. We have more live shows on September 18th. We're at the Pabst and Milwaukee.

Fuck yeah. There's a few tickets left for that. So get those pretty quick here. Don't wait. And then the next night in Minneapolis, September 19th at the state theater, get your tickets right now. Don't let Milwaukee punk you, Minneapolis.

It's one of the best places in the country. We love Minneapolis. It's fun. So can't wait to get there. And then we're October 3rd in Dallas, October 16th, 17th, San Jose, Sacramento. And then in November, we are in Terrytown and Boston. So get your asses in there.

tickets shut up and give me murder.com. Also listen to our other shows, Crime and Sports, and of course, your stupid opinions, which is just hilarious. I think I broke a rib last week laughing during that show. So fun. Just making the show. So I hope you guys maybe break a rib listening to it.

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you're going to get a huge catalog of back bonus episodes. You've never heard before to binge on. It's like a whole new feed. It's almost 400 episodes, so it's a lot. Then you get new ones every other week, one crime and sports, one small town murder. This week, and you get it all, everybody. This week, everything, this week, which you're going to get for crime and sports, we are going to do theme park disasters again.

Oh, we can't wait. Every few months, you can hear there's posts about it. And when are more theme park disasters coming? And people get the itch for it. Every summer. Every summer. It's coming. Then Small Town Murder, it's a user's choice, everybody.

You pick. It's going to be a poll on Patreon, either The Crash, which is that McKenzie Shirilla killed her friends driving in a wall thing. Or Corey Richens part three, because so much more stuff came out in sentencing. Her kids' statements came in, which contradicted everything she said. And you get to hear from the jurors a little bit. And her wild statement that she made for an hour, her rambling allocution of poor shit. So either way, whichever one you don't pick will be the next one. And then it's prisoner dating game time.

So do that. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of that. And you get everything we put out. Crime and Sports, your stupid opinion, small town murder, all ad free with your Patreon as well. You bet. And you get a shout out at the end of the show here where Jimmy will try to pronounce your name properly, but no promises, everybody. What do you want? Their names are hard.

They really are. So that said here. disclaimer time. Hey, this is a comedy show, everybody. We're comedians. There's going to be murder, obviously. The show's called Small Town Murder. It'd be weird if there was no murder.

And there's going to be jokes because we can't help it. We have to make jokes. And to me, to us, it makes us be kind of more comfortable with the whole thing. The serious talk about a murder seems kind of creepy. Let's lighten it up a little bit here. And you're not around the murder. There's plenty of stuff to make fun of. We make fun of the murderer.

We make fun of some police force doesn't know how to do their job and let some guy go free and murder more people. It's the type of thing we make fun of. But what we don't do, but we never do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why? Because we're assholes. But we're not scumbags. See how that works? It's real easy.

So if that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a hell of a crazy story. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together. I don't know. Maybe we're not for you, but this is what we're doing. So check it out. and if you like it, you like it. If not, no complaining later. That's all.

That's it. That's what the show is. That said, I think it's time, everybody. What do you say here to sit back, clear the lungs, and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? All right.

We're going to Utah this week, which we were in Utah a few weeks ago. Not bad. It's pretty anyway. It's a beautiful place. Beautiful place. Not for me, but, I mean, beautiful for anybody, but the place isn't quite for me, but it's, that's fine. That's all right.

People seem to enjoy it there. This is St. George, Utah. Yeah. It's in southwestern Utah, like all the way in the corner there. You know where it is from the electric company. Yeah, it's just northwest of page. Yeah, there you go. It's about an hour and 45 minutes to Las Vegas.

about four hours and five minutes to South Salt Lake City, which was... It's a way up there. It's a way up there, which was our last Salt Lake, or our last Utah episode, episode 662, The Master of Deceit. That was the one where they had to basically piece somebody's body together like hangman, finding body parts here and over there. That was a crazy episode. Utah, when you guys decide to kill over there, you're pretty repressed,

but when you just decide to go nuts, you really go all out. I'll give you that. Extreme. It's pent up. from decades. You just explode on people. This is in Washington, I'm sure. I think so.

Swear words drinking regular beer, not even two and a half percent or whatever they used to have there. Run across the border to get real alcohol. Yeah, over there. This is in Washington County. Area code is 435. It's got a nickname and a motto. Is that right? You get both.

The nickname is Utah's Dixie. And we'll explain why that is. very quickly in the history here. There's a reason for that. And the motto is, quote, it's the brighter side. Oh. Of what? We don't know.

Of Utah? The other side is fucking... Maybe it's... I mean, it's pretty bright, too. Mostly just white people, but... Well, yeah, and I'll tell you what, you go outside anywhere around there. It's bright. Yeah, it's bright.

The southwest in this desert area and all... It's like nuclear flash bright. Speaking of nuclear stuff, there's some nuclear stuff involved in the time, too. Oh, the sky is, like, in the summer, time. People are like, oh, the sky's so blue here. It's not even blue. It's fucking white. It's just a glare. It's just a weird odd glare. It doesn't even, you don't even get a blue sky, but yet there's no clouds. It's so weird. It's just white. History here. The town was settled in 1861 meant to be a cotton mission, which is why it became Utah's Dixie, because it was supposed they wanted to grow cotton here. Now, never became a successful commodity around the area. It just quite didn't quite work out. No. But for some reason, the area kept growing in population anyway, even though the thing that people came here for failed.

It doesn't make sense. But basically, compared to Utah, St. George is more Arizona than it is Utah. Yeah, it's that. There's no mountains. When you think of Utah and you think of like all the rock formations and the red dirt and shit like that. Big mountains and the snow covered shit. That's here. No, no, the red shit is down here.

The red shit's down here. That's not anywhere near, none of that shit's near South. Yeah, not this. I said no mountains, but I met no snow-covered mountains. None of that shit. None of that shit. No, there's no skiing around this area whatsoever. It's a hundred and 15 goddamn.

It's mostly hiking trails in very hot shit. Yeah, if you like to hike when it's 115, this place is for you, basically. Right up your rally. So the settlement is named after George A. Smith, who was an LDS church apostle, of course. Yeah. In 1877, the LDS completed the St. George, Utah Temple, and it was the church's third temple. And it's the oldest still in active use in Utah.

No shit. Yeah, it is. Now, in the early 50s, this area, St. George, received most of the bad shit from the fallout of the above-ground nuclear testing that went on. Whoops. Yucca Flats, the Nevada testing site that's northwest of Vegas where they would have parties where people would, remember, they have the rooftop viewing parties where people

would eat dinner and you'd watch the nuclear. explosions, like, and just get shitloads of radiation because if you're with, if you can see it, it's getting you. All that shit rode the jet stream right into fucking Utah. That's the problem. The winds go right through there and basically carried these, this, the fallout directly to St. George. It was like, whoops. Might as well have brought it in like a package with a bow on it and said, Candy Graham and, you know,

handed it over and then fallout comes out. So this. Here, another eyeball. Yeah. So there's, oh, a tail, that's not normal. So there was huge increases in the frequency of cancer in the population, including leukemia, lymphoma, thyroid cancer, breast cancer, melanoma, bone cancer, brain tumors, gastrointestinal tract cancers. I think they could just say all the cancers. Holy!

This was reported from the mid-50s until the early 80s, basically, until all those people kind of died off and cycled out. 30 years of that shit. Yep. In 1980, People Magazine reported that. from about 220 cast and crew members who filmed the 1956 movie The Conqueror on location near St. George, 91 of those people out of 220

had come down with cancer. 91 out of 220. That is a lot. That's a lot. Among the cancer deaths were John Wayne, obviously, and Susan Hayward as well, the film stars. So even they died of cancer. But John Wayne was old,

and I think he smoked like three packs of date, though. So that doesn't help. He lived into his 80s, didn't he? I think so. But I guess the lifetime odds of developing cancer for men in the U.S. population are 43%. And this place is a lot higher than that, apparently. In 1992, the St. George earthquake destroyed three houses as well as a bunch of utility shit, which you probably had to deal with at that.

Well, not in 92. You're a little young for that. 2005, they had a hundred-year flood come through and just destroy shit. and killed a person and 28 homes were destroyed. This is extreme desert weather. The earth doesn't want you here. No, no, no, no. That's what it is.

The lizard survive here. That's it. This and that. They try to shake you off. You don't leave. It tries to wash you out. You don't leave. I mean, for a bunch of people that believe in God, they sure don't take signs very much.

You know what I'm saying? Jesus. Yeah, they aren't taking the fucking hint. Not taking the hint. Reviews of this town. I've never been here. So let's find out what people think of this place. I love it.

Here's five stars. St. George is where I was born and raised. Wow. While still currently living here. Okay. The weird way to put that, but sure. While still currently living here. I said, I still live here.

Matter of fact, I still live here. Born and raised ain't left. Nope. It's a great in between of small town and plenty to do with a variety of residents, also known as Dixie. There's a great variety of public schools, sports teams, job opportunities, etc. I enjoy living here. Hence the five stars. It's an exclamation at the end, too.

Here's three stars. St. George is a very friendly town for those who are wanting a good place to settle. On the other hand, if you want any nightlife or just fun activities to do, it's really not the place to do it. Right, because you've settled. Yeah, you've settled.

If you like church or walking around in the heat up a rock, this is for you. Otherwise, find somewhere else. Isn't there a lake? I think there's a lake there, too. Maybe, yeah, I'm sure. Here's three stars. Very family friendly, but everyone is caught up in keeping up with the Joneses.

That's a big Mormon thing. There's a fucking TV show about it. Yeah, absolutely. Everyone seems to be copy and paste. And then finally, here, one star, this is just, this person is unhinged and it's wild. St. George wins the award of being the most hated city for domesticated animals. Okay. Good luck.

Who? We'll find out in the review here. Good luck finding a place to rent when you own an animal. They especially hate dogs here. No one wants to rent. There are people on trails pointing guns at hikers' dogs telling them they have the right to kill their dogs. Killed me? What are you talking about?

I'm going to shoot your dog because I can. What are you talking about? Which they don't, in parentheses. Police doesn't care. They doesn't care. Is it one police or they're several because you may be using that wrong? Chuck doesn't care. Police doesn't care and won't do a thing because they're all related to each other somehow.

I don't know if he means in his whatever way or if he means, you know, cosmically, I'm not sure. Somehow that happened. Yeah. So everything gets put on a shelf. All right. Speaking of feelings, come to any place and you can feel the heavy feeling of repression. The air reeks of repression and low. IQ points. It's noticeable, which makes me laugh at first. Then it makes me cry because I live here.

Oh, wow, that is depressing. All right. Population in this town, right now it's shot up like crazy. 92,000, 875. God damn. When the murder happened that we're going to talk about in 1990, there was 28,502. 90,000 people have moved here. It's crazy. 80,000 in a fucking, in a decade, two decades, three decades. In two. In two. In 2000, it only had 49,000 people in 2000. So it's almost 50,000 people have moved here in the last 25 years. So that's pretty impressive. More women than men, 51% women, but not a lot there. Median age is right about the national average, 37.9.

It's a lot of LDS, so it's a lot of families, a lot of kids and things like that. Matter of fact, it's 60% married, basically, 59.7% married people. very low single with children, people. It's very much, you know, families here. Race in this town, 80.7% white, 0.8% black, 0.8% Asian. Is there like a quota here or something? That's it. No more.

They close the gate. That's enough now. Sorry. Families reaching for each other through fences. That's 0.8%. It's all we can handle. You get a feel of the migration pattern of this town. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0.9% Native American, 13% Hispanic. 78% of the people here are religious, which is about as high as it gets. It's 50. That's about as high as we've ever heard. Normally, yeah, it's in the ballpark of other Utah cities, basically. And a whopping, I mean, this is not even close. 70.4% of the people here. So 78% of religious and 70.4% of those, not of those people, of everybody.

So 70.4% are Mormon here. It is a Mormon town. Nobody's even close. As we know, the LDS are the Baptists of the Western Mountain regions here. Whatever it is. Whatever it is. Unemployment low here. Median household income, $63,604, which is below the national average, which is odd for Utah.

Usually they make decent money in Utah at a lot of these places. So you would think the housing would be cheap also. No. But cost of living here, 100 is average. Here it's 110, and the housing is the highest thing of everything. Yeah, it feels like when the population rises like that in a rapid succession, houses gain value fast because supply and demand, babe. That's what I mean. They can't build them fast enough to have that many people come in here.

Median home costs $485,000. Holy shit. Which is well above the national average by $150,000. So if we've convinced you, damn it, you like the heat, you got plenty of sunscreen, and you got your hiking shoes on, and you don't want to bring your dog. We have for you the St. George, Utah, Real Estate Report. The average two-bedroom rental here is $1,270, which is like right at the national average. So renting seems like the better option here. But if you need to buy, here they are here.

We have, number one, two-bedroom, one-bath, 1,050 square foot trailer. Oh. It's a trailer, around other trailers. I mean, it's got like wood around the bottom. Oh, that's nice. They made it look like it's not going anywhere. There's like a metal carport outside. Inside, it's got some carpet that has been there a while.

Let's just say that. It's like gray, and it looks like it is. I don't know if it was gray to begin with, but it's gray now. It's old. It's a bit dingy in there. Just had a price cut, by the way, of $19,000. This house is $81,000. That is 20% off, man.

That's 20% off. That's a smoking deal. They couldn't sell that thing. Next up, three-bedroom two-bath, 1,039 square feet. So it's a pretty small. It's smaller in the trailer by 11 square feet. It's not a huge house, but it's a house, and it looks nice from the outside. It's not a big lot either.

It's a small lot kind of crammed in. Houses are right next to each other. It almost looks like those patio homes in Phoenix, how they are, like the retirement communities. Almost a condominium, but single level. But yeah, single level, single family. $293,000 for that. It's a bit much. That seems pricey.

It just had a $5,000 price cut, so they agree. It was a little much. Then next top, four-bedroom, four-bath, tea bowl for each and every beehole over here. 4,340 square feet. At 0.34-acre lot, so not huge, not small. It looks like one of the nice, like West Phoenix kind of houses, basically. It's a lot of beige.

A lot of beige. It's got, you know, the tile roof and some stonework around that goes three quarters of the way up. You know what I mean? That Phoenix house, they built around 2007, 2008. Those. It just had a $50,000 price cut as well. Apparently the real estate's not doing great in Utah or in this portion of it anyway. $1,169,000

bucks for that, which it just doesn't... Three quarters of an acre. Yeah, I'd like some more land if I'm going to pay that much money. I would, yeah. It's only 4,000 square feet. That's stupid.

4,300. I mean, it's not like it's enormous. You couldn't have eight kids and live there. You know what I mean? It would be tough. So, it'd be impossible. Things to do in this town. All right.

Not a whole lot. I got to be honest with you. It is mainly hiking. Really? Yeah. Even the, these things are still outdoors type of things. There's the St. George Water Lantern Festival, which looks real boring. Water lantern is like opposites.

Oh, lily pad things. Yeah, and then with the things around them, you float them on a lake. One of those. Experience the enchantment of a magical, the enchantment of a floating candle. Can you handle it, Jimmy? Can you handle that kind of enchantment? Yeah. Yeah.

A magical evening at our Water Lantern Festival. Join us as we gather by the Water's Edge to celebrate love, hope, and dreams, all illuminated by the gentle glow of floating lanterns. Is that what we're celebrating? Hope, love, and dreams, babe. That's it. When? That's happened. I don't even know what it is.

Doesn't matter. That's how we're celebrating. That's not February. Then fucking stupid. Yeah, what are we doing? As the sun begins to set, you'll be captivated by the serene beauty of the scene. It's a lot of words that mean boring. Serene, gentle.

All these words mean boring. A lot of silence. A lot of silence. Not a lot for the kids, I wouldn't think, here. Then there is the St. George dinosaur discovery site. I believe that. Tons of dinosaur shit around here. Big dinosaur footprints in the dirt and shit like that.

Cool stuff if you're into that. This is an indoor museum built directly over thousands of actual dinosaur tracks and fossils. They built it over. so you can just go in and look on the floor. So they probably destroyed some for making the foundation for this. Probably or possibly. Either that or they were real careful. Now, I found a couple of reviews,

and I think this is the best way to find out about this place. Here's a five-star review. This was an incredible discovery on a recent trip to St. George. It's so educational and fun. It's good for kids and adults, adults with intellectual curiosity. It was so enjoyable to see actual dinosaur footprints and impressions of skin left in the ancient waterways. Plan to spend more than an hour here.

They have an excellent selection of books to learn more. Skin left. Skin left. Impressions of where the skin was. Where it like fell down and died in the rock bed? Probably, yeah. I don't know. Then there's a one-star review.

Very disappointing. Mud tracks only. No dinosaurs. Oh. Holy shit. Sorry. It wasn't Jurassic Park, you fucking, This is America, everybody, or not even America of the world.

This is, this is who we're living with. What the fuck? When people go, society's all fucked up. You can't have a society when people go, there's all no dinosaurs. You can't have a society like that. It says dinosaur on the sign. That's not fair. When this person's driving on the road, you are counting on them to not just drive into

your children, like, because they're so this fucking stupid. It says 10 to 15 minutes to go through the entire place. And McDonald's thinks we're capable of. bringing up our own food. Yeah. No. Can't do it. You can't even...

No. There's fucking moron. Things says dinosaurs. Yes. And there's a fucking insane. There's a response here. Hi, I'm sorry to hear you were disappointed during your visit. I'm not sure what you mean by, quote, no dinosaurs.

As we have hundreds of dinosaur footprints on display and several real-life restorations of what these animals looked like when alive. So just making sure you mean you thought dinosaurs. would be here, like walking around. You could pet them. They want to ask, are you okay? But they know. They know.

Crime rate in this town. What we're interested in here? Property crime, a little bit below average, but not too much. They can't figure it out. No, violent crime, murder rape robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about half the national average. Yeah, they can't figure it out. No, they don't know how guns work probably.

They're like, what happened? They click it back. They're like, I'm pressing. A lot of suicide. Just looking down the barrel. Oh, no, damn it. That is incredible. No dinosaurs.

That's the dumbest review. We do a show about dumb reviews, and that's the dumbest review I've ever seen for anything. It's a fucking idiot. That's an idiot. He doesn't know dinosaurs are extinct. Okay. He's like, I saw Jurassic Park. There are dinosaurs you could have used.

They used them. Why couldn't you use them? I'm so sad. Borrow some dinosaurs from Jurassic Park. Okay. Let's talk about this murder. now. Okay. Let's start out 1990. As a matter

of fact, July 22nd, 1990. It is hot, hot, hot around in these parts right now. Buck 10 every day. I mean, dry. Cooking. Oh, cooking. Let's talk about a lady named Nancy Snow. Now, Nancy is

in her late 30s at this point, and she is at this very moment thrice divorced. Oh. Okay. Three times. Three times. Very recently is the third time. So I'll give you that. You get married, especially it's, you know, Utah. Maybe she got married when she was 18. Maybe she was forced. That's not going to work. Or you even just thought it was a good idea to do. And if it's encouraged by everyone around you, you do it. And then you go, Jesus, why didn't you tell me not to do this? or you get married to run away from whatever the fuck was back or that nine kids in the house or some shit or just whatever just found someone she thought she's in love with either way that didn't work out maybe you think oh now you found the one and now you know who knows maybe he's not what he thought maybe he's like the pattern that you got away from and then things are starting to get ugly for here now she's a receptionist at a nursing home and she has a friend here that works at the nursing home with her technically it's kind of her boss I guess yeah

I mean, she's a receptionist. This woman's kind of like the head of the nursing staff. But I don't know if it's her direct supervisor, but, you know, whatever. But they hang out all the time. They're like best friends. They've gotten pretty close to each other. Now, her friend doesn't show up for somewhere she's supposed to be, I believe, work on the morning of July 22nd. She doesn't show up.

And so Nancy Snow calls her house. And she doesn't answer either. So she's like, God damn it. She drives over to Nancy's house. Now, she had dropped Nancy off at her house tonight. before. She's like, I know she came home the night before. I dropped her off because they had gone out to a bar the night before to hang out. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you about a very cool

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And also I found like a vintage watch that I dig too because I'm into watches. It's really cool. And you should get on there and check this out. I was looking at, I was looking at cards of older cards is what I was looking at. Kind of older baseball cards. And then I got into the older football cards and you get into it. You know what I mean? It's just it's a fun thing to do.

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That's A-U-R-A-Frames. promo code small town murder support the show by mentioning us to check out terms and conditions apply. Now back to the show. So the friend here that she's looking at is not Mormon, by the way, as we'll find out. She went to a bar and all that. She wasn't like doing it in secret. She's not from here. Sometimes they do.

They do in secret. This wasn't a secret is what I mentioned. Yeah, she's not hiding it. She's just living her life. Now, the friend who here goes over to her house, you know, Nancy Snow goes over to her friend's house to say, where the hell are you, basically. It's a two-story residence, and she finds it in complete disarray from the outside. You can see there's complete disarray. There is, like the back screen is, like, messed up on her kitchen window.

there's blood that she can see in the house. Things don't look right. They're disheveled. So she, Nancy, heads to the St. George Police Department right from the house to say, my best friend Janice is missing. There's blood all over her house. I didn't see her in there, but she might be in there, but I don't know. And I can't find her. And she's not answering her phone.

She didn't show up. And she's very dependable and yada, yada, yada. Even more than that, she says, by the way, if she's something happened to her, I think I know who did it, as a matter of fact. Which, if you're the police, that's very helpful. Nancy, you're so good at this. Someone comes in not only to report a missing person, but then to solve the case for you as well. It's pretty impressive. It gets a lot of information.

Don't even put your coffee down, boy. Wow. Yeah, let's do this. So she said, I bet it's my ex-husband that did this, the last one. Her own ex. Yes, my ex-husband, not Janice's ex-husband. Nancy Snow's ex-husband. She said a few days ago, three days ago, we had gone out to a bar and there was a confrontation between me and my friend Janice and my ex-husband. Okay.

Where he came up to me and wasn't supposed to be bothering me because I have a restraining order against him, but we were all in the bar at the same time. And so when we saw he was there, Nancy says me and Janice got up to leave. And he bothered us. So Janice was yelling at him and telling him to leave me alone and to go, you know, let us leave and don't bother us and things like that. And he got really mad at Janus. He's my ex-husband. But we had a confrontation with him together. Three days ago.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's restraining orders. And we're talking this multiple restraining orders are going on. Oh, he's a bad guy. Then Janice had went and got a restraining order because of the bar incident. Oh. Because they had gotten into it at the bar.

She went the next day and got a restraining order. a restraining order. So within the last three days, now there's, Nancy's got restraining orders on them, and now Janice does as well. So when they, when the police, they take her seriously,

I mean, they go, oh, Jesus. So she just, and they look it up, and Janice had filed a complaint a couple of days ago. So they go, okay, this makes a lot of sense. Let's look into it. So they go over to Janice's apartment. They find the kitchen window is open. the screen from the window is on the ground.

That's not good. That's not good. Really a good track covering by whoever did this. Speaking of track covering, there's also a footprint in the dirt outside. Uh-oh. Because there was a hanging plant there that is now taken down and put onto the kitchen counter as well. And some of the dirt from that spilled when it was being taken down. Yeah, it was in the way.

So that's how they can tell it definitely came in through the window. and then there's dirt, a footprint in the dirt, you know, shoe print. So that's all of that, they think that has to be the point of entry is the kitchen window. So the police detectives here say they found a large amount of blood on the carpet of the townhome of Janice's apartment here. Blood was also found on the front door, which now there's another entry exit point here. So they found it on the front door, on the tile inside the front door. Uh-huh. A little tile foyer there.

Landing. A little landing. And on the porch concrete outside the front door. Okay. So blood, big pile of it in the living room and then looks like whatever happened, because there's no body here, by the way. Oh, they don't find her. She's not here.

There's no people in this house, dead or alive. Okay. So they see, obviously, whoever, They don't know. Did they leave on their own? Were they carried? Were they dragged? Nancy started leaking and then there's a trail of leaking all the way through the house.

Janice. Nancy's the reporting one. Yeah. In addition to that, which I mean, that looks bad enough as it is, they also found a bullet hole in the front window of the ground floor, which is right by the where they find the blood stain and near the door there. So they find a bullet hole in the window. Do you know if it went through out or in? It looks like out. Okay.

It's an out because their glass would be on the outside. And there's a nine millimeter, and even more proof of it is there's a nine millimeter shell casing in the kitchen. On the inside. So, yeah, definitely shot from the inside. They also find, like I said, the kitchen window opened and all that kind of shit. And there's one plant on the counter,

and then there's a couple more plants that were just like taken down and thrown somewhere. So all together, they have. have a 9mm shell casing, which is good evidence. They have blood on the carpet, blood on the door, blood on the porch, which they can test and see if it's Janus's. 1990 that's not DNA, but they can at least kind of blood type or anyway, a bullet hole through the front window and no victim.

And plants moved all over the place. And plants all over the place and a footprint in the dirt outside. So they basically they're going, we have to investigate this as a homicide. because there's a lot of blood. I mean, there's carpet soaked in blood. There's enough blood where it doesn't look like whoever bled this much is probably medically okay. They didn't bleed this much

and then go out to dinner and come home later. Like there's an issue. And then so yeah, they're looking at the fact that they're not there and this person didn't like check into a hospital or anything like that. Yeah, we don't have anywhere close by of them getting help. No.

So they're investigating this as this is a crime scene, obviously, and we have a murder investigation with no victim, which is strange to have, you don't even know if the person's dead, you don't have any idea where their body is, but you already have a suspect, because you've already been given a suspect by somebody. Now, obviously, they say it all sounds right,

but at the same time, they're like, you know, you have to look into Nancy, because she's the one who reported it, and she came to the apartment first, and she's the one saying, I bet it's my ex-husband, so who knows. She's the last one to see her, and she's already steering the investigation.

Yeah, so they have to look at her. But she seemed pretty genuine, they think, when she came in. She seemed genuinely freaked out and, like, really scared that her friend was missing, essentially. So the other thing they find at the house is Janice's car is parked in front of the house. So they look at the car, which is smart police work. They could just say, well, her car has nothing to do with it if this happened inside the house and, you know, has nothing to do with it. But instead, they really look over the car well, and they find that the car has scuff marks suggesting that it may have been driven through brush. And also they find a very specific type of vegetation up in the wheel wells as well.

This has been a great, great find. It's a real good find. Yeah. Yeah. Where they are very specific where this particular brush grows is not inside the city limits. scientifically forensics has become botanists as well. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

We've seen cases where they do all sorts of crazy grass samples to see how long it would die under a car and these conditions. I mean, like, you really got to become, yeah, you want to be a forensic scientist. You better take some botany classes because it's. Fuck, yeah. You've got to get yourself a Ranger Rick. Yeah, you're going to need to know where this particular type of shit grows and why it's there and what, yeah, everything. So pay attention at your doctor's office at those National Geographic. Definitely.

So the friend that they're looking for, the missing woman, is Janice Elaine Fondren, F-O-N-D-R-E-N. Janice. She is born April 20th, 1960. April 20th, same birthday as Corey Richens and Hitler. Yeah, she's a few years younger than Nancy. Now, Janice, born 1960, she just turned 30, a couple of years. a month ago. Now, she's an interesting story. She's from South

Carolina, from Monks Corner South Carolina, M-O-N-C-S-K-S. Monks. Where the fuck is that? It's in Berkeley County just north of Charleston. Okay. So, and if you've ever seen, like, live PD or whatever they call it now, on patrol, Berkeley County is one of their counties, and it is,

there's some rural shit going on, and it's a lot of, like, chasing people through the woods, and then they have tons of guns on them and drugs. seems to be Berkeley County. Never an ID. No ID or driver's license ever, of course. It's probably not their car, but they're driving. It's the craziest thing.

I love that. You have a license? No. People are acting like, why would I have a license? A license? For what? Can you just hand me the weed?

It's legal in this state. I don't have any. Okay, all right. We'll get out of running and friskew. Where's all this weed coming from? They never say the weeds legal in this state in South Carolina. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not fun.

is why you don't see us playing in South Carolina because I'm not going to fucking some Southern prison because I want to have a good time before a show. When they do it in Arizona, it's always that though. They don't tell them that they have weed on them. Yeah. Do you have any drugs on you? No. And they're like, it's legal in this state.

You could have just told me. Well, then it's not drugs. I get it. But if you're, they can still give you a DUI for it, is my point. Yeah. Well, you don't have to tell them if you have a six-pack. in the trunk. No.

So why would you have to tell them if you have leave? But they know that they know if they see it, then they're going to assume that they just smoked it now. Oh, okay. Yeah, I guess. And they're getting arrested for DUI because Arizona loves it. Yeah, they just love, that's how they make money in Arizona as DUIs. Yeah.

Let's be realistic here. In other states, they aren't like they are in Arizona and people aren't smashing in everything drunk all the time. It's just for making money. I mean, Milwaukeeans probably are. They know how to drive drunk. Are you kidding me? In Milwaukee?

Anything less than an 18 pack. They're fine, those people. They're a different breed up there. So Janice, back to her. She, her parents are John and Betty Joe. And she has a sister, Beth, and her brother, John the 3rd. Oh, nice family, working class family. Her mom, Betty, worked for county supervisors.

And when she retired, she was the Berkeley County Finance Director. Oh. So they do well, you know, nice middle class family, basically. Janice is a real happy person. Sings in the choir and high school and all that kind of thing. She's a cheerleader, everything like that. She's very outgoing. Very South Carolina. Absolutely. Very into stuff. Now, she goes to college at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston. She goes for nursing. So she gets. It's a bachelor's in nursing. And the whole way she was, the whole time she was in school, she was paying her own way through school. And she did that by working with the elderly, like, as an aide in a nursing home, which is what she was trying to do in her career. So she's just getting her feet wet.

She's described by her teachers as an excellent student. She earned two scholarships from the state and local chapters of the business and professional women's organization. of the thing. So she's somebody you want to, you know, put your chips on. She looks like she's not going to waste your money. She graduates from the university at that point. And her father, John, said, I tried to get her to stay home in South Carolina

where she belonged. But I lost that battle. She said she loved the West so much. She just wanted to go out West. Okay. We wanted some open horizons here. Yeah. Now, there's differing information here.

There is information that she moved to Las Vegas first for a minute. Yeah. It was there for a few months and then ended up in Utah. Got a taste of it and was like, this place sucks. Well, it was that she wanted to go somewhere that was not so, she's from like a small town. And Vegas is a little much for anybody. It's much for anybody.

I don't care where you're from. It's too stimulating. Even if you're from Manhattan, it's too stimulating. Do you like fun? We're going to shine a bright light on it and show you it even when you're trying to sleep. Vegas is the equivalent of somebody sitting you down, tying you to a chair and having a machine that just feeds you ice cream continuously until the machine is tired. Yeah. Which is never.

At first couple bites, you're like, hey, ice cream. I like that. Yeah. A half hour into it, enough fucking ice cream. And that's what Vegas is. It's too much ice cream. And when this machine breaks down. we're going to have Chris Angel come in and do it.

And then when he gets tired, Wayne Newton's going to come to it. Yeah. It's just too much. And then we're going to feed you to a fucking tiger. And then Celine Dion's going to sing at you for some reason or whoever the fuck is there. So she is known as a pretty private person here. She never talks about herself ever.

It's like one of like kind of like seems like a rule of hers to not talk about herself. And a lot of people, it's not polite to talk about yourself. Right. That's a, yeah, that's a thing. Some people also say that she's also pretty private anyway. It's not a me, me, me person. And she's just kind of private anyway. So one of her bosses at the nursing home later on said Janice was, quote, a very private lady,

not a person who talked about me, me, me. She was cute, had an infectious smile and was always, always, always smiling. great very happy young lady here so she gets herself a cat that she names rambo yeah because it is the late 80s it is 90 in the late 80s you might name your cat rambo it's just what you did um there's gizmo or rambo those were the two animal names that you were allowed to have gizmo if it was cute rambo if it was tough have you got one of those like bounder cats it's got like you know fucking one eye and a weird limp because you found it and that's a rambo cat you get a fluffy little white thing that's gizmo You know, none of this shit.

Gizmo can't make it outside. That's true. Gizmo can't make it outside. Gizmo's going to get eaten by an owl in like, you know, two nights, whereas Rambo, Rambo will get by. Gizmo's got a weak bladder. Yeah. Rambo's like the cat and always sunny, the junkyard cat, and always sunny in Philadelphia. So she still talks to her mom, too, despite moving out there and being, you know, almost in her late 20s,

She still talks to her mom four or five times a week in the late 80s, which, by the way, that's long distance bills. That's expensive. That is fucking, we discussed this recently on a show. Long distance, now you just call wherever. You don't even think about it because your phone, it's all the same, whether you call in your own house or you call to California. It's the same thing. And they don't even care how long you talk for now. Forever.

No. No, back in the day, if you called the next area code, which could be 15 miles away, it costs money, period. It was expensive. You were outside your area code. You were in deep shit. So she did that. She would pick up the phone four or five times a week to call her mom. A lot of it would be just to ask her, what do you put in that recipe that you have?

Oh, wow. Yeah, just trying to keep close. Her mom said she'd be in the middle of cooking something and she'd pick up the phone and ask me how to do it. So walk her through it. So, yeah, by 89 is when she ends up going to Utah, basically. All right. She wanted to be able to move to a safe place where you could sleep with your windows open if you wanted to, stuff like that. So she picked St. George, Utah, which has about zero murders a year.

Wow. In general, yeah. In 1990, there hadn't been a murder in Utah in St. George in four years. My God. It's very small. So she moves to Newtown, St. George, and she ends up at the St. George Care Center, which is a nursing home in town. because she's a licensed registered nurse. Her boss describes Janice.

She says you'd watch her come into the work. She said, I'd see her through the office window because it's by the parking lot. I'd see her coming in every morning. And she said, I'd sit there. I'd sit here in the morning and watch. She'd get out of the car and it was almost like she'd skip into the building. God damn. That's a different level of happy.

Yeah. That is I'm impressed with because if you're going to work at a nursing home, first well, if you're going to work at an ice cream factory where you're the tester, like, let's go back to ice cream because it's wonderful. If you're an ice cream tester, you're not, it's, it's eight in the morning, you know, I'm never skipping into that anywhere. Anywhere. Yeah. Your job could be to get blow jobs, and I wouldn't skip in it every morning. You know what I mean?

I would walk into an ice cream testing job like I was lactose intolerant every day. Every day, because I had to go there. I don't want to go here. So that's impressive to be able to, I'm going to go, you know, watch old people deteriorate and, you know, get yelled at by someone with Alzheimer's, then clean shit off of somebody. And she's like, yay. Yeah, my son does it now where he goes and feeds at one of these places. He, like, makes the food for these guys. And it's already, it's already wearing on him.

Yeah, but to be honest. I mean, everything wears on him. Yeah, you're always complaining about who he doesn't. want to do anything. He's not the most active boy. I mean, he'll feed him. The way you said, not the most active boy. The most active child you ever saw.

Oh, man, that's funny. He'll feed him one day and come back and their rooms cleared out. There's a new person in there. They're dead. Yeah. That's a bummer. It's tough. He's starting to get a real taste for what life is.

That is a serious life lesson, though. You want a serious life lesson. There it is. This is what's going to happen eventually. and it won't last long. So fucking enjoy. The guy who made you your pudding yesterday will be like, oh, he's gone. That's it.

That's our footfront, babe. That's all there is, man. So she loved Utah, loved her work. She loved working with the elderly. Her mom summed it up perfectly, I think, describing, giving an umbrella quote here, quote, she was a sweet girl. I think that's the best way to put it.

She's a sweet girl. So Nancy Snow is telling the police as they look for this sweet girl It's got to be my ex-husband I know it's my ex-husband that did something with her because Nobody else in this town kills anybody so it's got to be him Who's got the restraining order so yeah Yeah because she said I went over there It's the color view townhomes is where she lived Janice

And she said the night or July 21st which is the night before I had dropped her off and we were hanging out over there And I saw saw my ex-husband through the back fence looking at the apartment. So he was like looking through the back fence spying on them while they were hanging out in the apartment. I mean, she's making all the sense in the world of why to look at this guy. Yeah, that seems awful. She notified Janice, who went to check, but he like ran away when they started like going toward the door.

He took off. He was watching. So they're like, all right, who is this guy? Okay, it is Joseph Charles Gardner Jr. J.C., he goes by, you know, they call me J.C. Like the other one, but, you know, not quite. He's born November of 1957 here. He grew up in Nevada. He grew up with two sisters, so just him and two sisters. His mother, her name is Connie, and we'll talk about her a whole lot. Connie's got a lot to say. Um, so they're kind of an outdoorsy family. They hunt, they fish, dad's around. Yeah. And J.C. being the only boy is real close to his dad.

Yeah. Dad likes to take him to do, you know, boy, boy shit. Yeah. Um, so he's the youngest of the three kids and the only boy. Nevada. Nevada on the west side, probably. No clue. Um, no idea.

If I knew, I would have said he grew up in this part of Nevada right away. Near Tahoe somewhere over there. That's where all the outdoorsy shit is. It would seem like that. Yeah, Vegas would be a real. lame place to hunt and fish, I think. I'm going to go hike the strip. I'm going to go fish the reservoir for a while and see how I can.

Through my line in that Belagio fountain. Didn't catch shit. Not really anything. I did actually. I caught like a tourist from Iowa, but that's because I used, I was using a dollar. I was using a dollar as bait, so that's why. So yeah, he's close to his dad. He's the youngest and the only boy, so you know his dad wanted a boy and he finally got one

and he's trying to take advantage of it. Now, he is a really. real. He's a swinging wild kid, boy. I mean, when you hear like the phrase, like a wild and crazy guy, it's him. He's, he's on the edge. He can't control him. His favorite thing to do, his mother said. When he was growing up, his favorite thing to do was read the Webster's dictionary. Is that right? He's out of control. He's wild. I'll tell you. Wild. How are going to stop this kid? Hey, listen, that's your dictionary curfew. It's 1030.

Put it down, bud. Come on. I had one of those that was laid with gold leaf on the cover and shit. That thing was incredible. Oh, the dictionary? Yeah. It was a very impressive book. Very impressive book.

So not the Bible. You thought everyone thinking of it. I was reading him like, oh, he's going to be a big Bible guy. Nope, dictionary. So his mom said, quote, J.C. has a kind heart. As a child, he didn't like to see his playmates feeling. hurt. He's just a big, big softy. When he got older, a lot of people brought their problems to him.

He's just, he absorbs it, you know. He's just such an empathetic figure. You can probably sum up all your problems and one amazing word. Well, he's going to have words for, actually he's like, did you mean this word? He just constantly corrects your word usage. I don't think you use pervasive correctly. Let me help you with that. It's not the word you want. It's not the word you want right there. Let's find a better one. Come on. He starts opening the book of shot. Now here. Okay. One of the other thing his mother said, he could see things, things that weren't obvious to everybody else. He could see how things fit together. What? So I guess she's saying he's very smart and sensitive is what I'm getting.

Observant, I guess. Yeah. She sounds like a mom who's real enamored with her son, you know. She loves this kid. And an only son, too, in a family from like early 60s, too. He's born in 57. So, you know, they wanted a boy. You know what I mean? He had a bedroom painted baby blue. Someone to carry on the name. Imagine how much cowboy shit he had from the late. Oh, he had the little gun belts and the fucking hat and the whole, the lone ranger.

He rode around a thing, a horse on a stick. Totally. He's also an Eagle Scout. Oh, that's impressive. Because if you don't know, by the way, the Mormons have completely taken over the Boy Scouts. Have they? Oh, this was 25, 30, 40 years ago. they took over the Boy Scouts.

They have taken over the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts are a Mormon organization, give or take now. What? Absolutely. Girl Scouts are. This is all news to me. Yeah, the Girl Scouts aren't. The Mormons are like that.

And they kind of have taken over scouting, basically. So being an Eagle Scout, if you're a Mormon, is like one of the things you do. Yeah. Not everybody, but it's a very common thing. Like, you go to church, you do your mission later on, you become an Eagle Scout. It's a very structured lifestyle, which kind of falls in line with the religion itself, and it kind of guides you how to go ahead and just continue that shit in our building once you're done being outside in your fucking tent.

Here's how you don't think for yourself ever. Yeah. You start here and you do this and then you do that. Here's how we control. Distract them. All facets of your life. This is how we do. Distract them with making them go out in the woods and find a fucking spruce.

Well, now we can tie a knot. Great. That's terrific. Now, hey, maybe he can be a forensic scientist. Now he knows what pieces of brush are from what places. Now he knows what a cottonwood spark looks like. That's perfect. He went on a mission as well.

His mission, not too bad. It is a crapshoot with these missions, by the way. Yeah. You could end up in like the jungle or you could end up in like, oh, you're going to south central, door to door. Philadelphia or El Salvador. Or they might send you to Pago Pago. Like, literally, they might send you to some tropical island.

They might send you to paradise. They might send you to like, you know, Paris or something or whatever, some place you'd want to visit. Would it even matter? You can't even partake in the good shit there. No, I don't know what they consider the good shit. Sugar? Sugar. We got sugar, everybody.

So he goes to Switzerland. So he gets a pretty decent one. Honestly, that's not bad. It's a two-year mission. I don't think they're allowed to have chocolate. yet. No. They could.

Now they can. They can have sugar now. Yeah. And caffeine? Yeah. They, the Mormons are a fun one because they. They adapt based on what's fun? They're a business and they don't hide it.

Yeah. Like, they just adapt to what they think would help them get more business. Yeah. Like they, up until 1980, they said, if you were black, it's because the Lord was punishing you. Because you're cursed. Yeah. You're cursed and you're being punished by the law. Then in about 1980, they were.

like, Jesus, like the Jeffersons are on. And like, you know, this is a little harsh. Good times has just ended. What's happening's over. Like, this is pretty mainstream. Then all of a sudden, we could also eat some tithing. Yeah, there was a, we looked, there was a smudge on that part of the, what Joseph. Yeah, there was a smudge on that.

Apparently, black people are loved by the Lord is what it is. So, yeah, they're more than welcome now. And like, they do shit like that. Like, it took forever for the Catholics to go, okay, fine, you can eat meat on Friday. Like, that took centuries of people fucking bitching about it. Whereas this was like, hmm, they had a marketing meeting and they were like, hey, we're missing a market. And so lately. A lot of tithing we're skipping.

It's almost like Mormonism is the mainstream country music of religion. It is, yeah. Hand or whatever group is popular. Whatever, whatever's going to sell some, a few more downloads. And that's kind of what it is, where they have, also like they have, like now the big thing is like those dirty sodas that you hear. That's all from Mormons. Yeah, they made them. Because rather than going out and drinking, which isn't socially acceptable, they go out

and have a soda that has enough sugar for like three months of your life, basically. And that's like, oh, man, I did so. Isn't this, we had a wild one last night. Boy, I had whipped cream on it and everything else. It was crazy. I'm still going. The shakes from it. Like booze almost.

Yeah, a little bit. Close. We're trying to get it to be booed. I got the shakes like booze, but I can still remember everything. But I can still remember. I'm real sticky, too, for some reason. Everything's sticky. That's the same.

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Now back to the show. So he gets sent to Switzerland for two years. Yeah. Comes home, enrols in Southern Utah State College, which is now Southern Utah University. Okay. That is in Cedar City, which we've done an episode on Cedar City. Now, he gets a degree in, want to guess his degree? Botany.

Close. Zoology. Zoology. He likes sciences and nature shit. That's what he's into. Yeah, you can tell you what stage this fucking insect is in. Probably. I don't know.

Well, I think that would be, that's a different thing than zoology. Like botany? Isn't that like... There's a separate thing that's an insect person. All right. Yeah, it's a totally separate. But I mean, maybe zoology covers that. Sure.

I know, like, as an insect specialist is not a zoologist. It's probably a vague universal coverage of that area. Probably. Yeah, you know everything about everything from zebras to mosquitoes. You can figure it out and you're good. So then 8384, he goes to Tuba City, Arizona. Oh, no. God, Jesus.

Jesus Christ, why? That's a bad move there. So he can teach junior high. I didn't even know they had schools in Tuba City, Arizona. Isn't Tuba City? I thought it was only natives. I didn't know that they even allowed. I thought

White people to work there. I thought once you sprouted your first pub, they just stuffed you in a mine. I thought that's how that worked over there.

I didn't even know they put you in school in Tuba City. Is it a reservation Tubes City? Oh, okay. There's a large population of,

that's where Lory P.S. It's from. Okay. So anyway, it's six months he spends doing the school teaching, teaching junior high science.

And I don't blame him for wanting to get out of Tuba City. I could not get out of They're fast enough if I was stuck working. He will later say that a recurring throat infection made him not be able to teach anymore. Yeah. So that feels like a cop out, right? It's just a, eh.

You know what I mean? I can't teach like this. It's tough. It's tough to get it out. Perhaps it's the dust, man. Yeah, well, it's that. So in 1986, he spent two months as this is so, his whole life is Madland. Like, he's a junior high science teacher in Tuba City, Arizona.

Then he's a deputy police officer. He's a cop in Mojave County, Arizona. Northeast. Northeast? Over by, like, St. John and shit? I think it's up that direction, if I'm not mistaken. I think that's Mojave County. Wow.

Oh, no, no, never mind. Kingman and Bullhead City. So west. Over there. Over by Vegas. Over by Vegas. big just open spaces of meth labs. It's all of this.

A nightmare up there. He works there for two months. Yeah. I don't blame him. That's depressing. Eight weeks is all you can take. It's all you can do. He's also a licensed EMT as well.

My God. So, yeah, he does a lot of shit. In 87, he moves to, I guess his family, his parents had moved from Nevada to St. George. I guess his dad wasn't doing so great. health-wise. Sure. So he decided he was going to move to St. George in 87 to be close to the family,

be around his dad as he, you know, doesn't do so well. So when he moves there, he starts working as a home health aide as he's an EMT. Basically about 10 hours a week he's doing this, kind of part-time. He works with elderly patients in their homes. He's really running a full public service career in life. Yeah. Yeah. And he's got a zoology degree.

and he's doing this. In-home health care, too. Man, let me tell you, that is a wild job. It's not. It's not ideal. No, that's a tough job. Anybody who can do that and do it well, holy shit, hoof, hats off.

Traveling nurses that just go to different people. All that stuff is so nuts. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they go to places that don't have a lot of nurses and stuff when they need to. Yeah, it's interesting. Now, her, so that's where he goes. Now, his boss at this job said, quote, his patience loved him.

J.C. steam seemed very stable, very sure of himself, very capable of doing the job we had him, we had him for him. He always had a smile on his face. I don't think he ever came into the office grumpy. That's fascinating. Yeah. He's got restraining orders coming out of his asshole. And he's just nice to everybody else. For now, he's doing great.

He worked for a time for the meta-visit extended. home care, and for the St. George surgical and medical clinic as well. Okay. She's doing really well. Real normal, kind of boring, nice Mormon guy in Southern Utah. That's just who he is in his mid-20s by the 80s here, you know? Professional of the box. 30.

Yeah, that's it. Helps his sick dad, works with old people, comes to work happy. Seems like a great guy at the time. November 1988, his dad dies of a heart attack. Fuck. Now, this is hard on him, and apparently he's real close to his dad. They do all the outdoor shit together, and they're real close, and, you know, he moved to St. George to make sure he was close to him and all that kind of thing, and then he dies. Apparently, he goes into a pretty pronounced depression after that, which is, happens.

You lose somebody close to you. depression often follows from that. It's just the way it is. So he actually seeks help for his depression, which in the 80s is no small feat. That's different. In 1989, that is not a small feat for someone to go to their doctor and say, I am depressed.

Can you help me? Because back then, that was not standard operating procedure. It wasn't. It was a much different era. People would be like, well, fucking, you know, you just got to get over it. That's what people would tell you. Yeah, get over it.

Yeah, there's, I mean, there's a lot of, tropes about it too in the 80 and movies where somebody just fucking didn't do anything about it and had a nervous breakdown and it was like a joke and it's like I don't know man life piles up yeah

leave me a fuck alone and whatever you'd see too in the 80s a huge movie and TV trope was the psychiatrist in the 80s somebody sitting on the shrink you know I'm going to see my shrink and they're sitting on the couch they're never talking about depression never they're always talking about

some fucking thing that relationship or a work problem or they're stressed out and they don't know who they are they're trying to find themselves it's always some like existential philosophical they're sitting on the couch laying on the couch like this and the you know the shrink is like smoking with his pad out and they're going well oh what do you think of that and they go huh i never thought of it like that and they haven't in real life the psychiatrist is people that are sad and you're trying to figure out why you're sad what happened to make you sad to be sad to begin with, and now let's work on that back from there. In real life, it's just a lot of that

guy scribbling and then going, yeah, that's normal. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. That's how you feel. And then going, you're not fucking unique. Yeah, this isn't, you're not a, yeah. But they actually have to treat it like you kind of are, because in your head, you are. That's the problem. But they tell you a lot that your problems aren't as complex as you make. them. That's kind of the point of therapy. That's a big as you're making them. Right. Yeah. But in the 80s, a lot of not psychiatry, but society was

I'm depressed. So is everybody. Get over. Yeah. My job sucks. I hate this. Who isn't depressed? Get over. That's what being an adult is. That's what I would, you know what I mean? That's what I always heard growing up was, yeah, being fucking miserable. That's what being an adult is. Oh, okay.

Shit. That looks bad. It's just how it is. The trope of it all was the, they were going real fucking deep into what makes you who you're. That's not with therapy. That's not at all. It's really breaking it down to simplified versions of yourself to build tools of dealing with this tomorrow. You're not going to see me every day, motherfucker. So you might feel great for this hour.

Yeah. If you have plenty of money and you feel like dicking around and you got the time to do it, sure. Yeah. Maybe you could do some of that. but most of it is trying to fix it an active problem that you have and get you tools to do it. Stretching you to your next appointment. They prescribe him Prozac. Now, Prozac is pretty fucking new at this point.

Yeah. Because this is November 88. Prozac was approved by the FDA in December 87, so it's less than a year on the market. Yeah. We don't think now because now there's, you know, all sorts of drugs for it and things like that. But back then, this was a new thing. These SSRIs were pretty fucking new. Was this one of the first ones approved?

Yeah, I believe so. Yeah. So it basically, Prozac, it becomes kind of the standard that everybody, in the 90s, if anybody was doing something, the common throwaway joke was, well, don't you take, get on your Prozac. And people would say that. That was the common, like, weird, khaki fucking trope that comics and people would use. So it basically increases the serotonin in your brain. You're depressed. You increase it.

Now you're not so depressed. It was the biggest psychiatric drug in America in the last year. I mean, it was a lifesaver for a lot of fucking people. This is, I mean, people, if you are, you know, horribly depressed and, you know, suicidal and things like that, if this is a, you know, a lifesaver for some people. By 1990, there's three and a half million users worldwide. Really? Yeah, Eli Lilly is the drug company that puts it out, and they are making a fortune off this shit, right?

The drug works based on their, you know, research here, works in about 60 to 70% of patients. Yeah. A lot of people, when they go very depressed to get something like this, they have to go through a few of them before they find the one that works correctly for them. And that's the fucked up part about these things, is that it also takes, it often takes several weeks for it to really start working. Yeah.

And that's fucking crazy because with depression and those kind of thoughts, the last thing you've got is three to six weeks. Yeah, exactly. Especially if you're at that low of a spot where you wait until you were at your lowest to go see the, go see a doctor and deal with the type of shit. At that point, it's like that's the last thing you've got is all kinds of time. Yeah, and there was a ton too. There's Prozac and Paxil. and there was like your wellbutrin's, and I think Sarazone and this one and that one

and now there's a bunch more of them that came out. Zoloft, yeah, those were all the kind of 90s ones and there's a million of them. Would you say, I think that's an antacid the last one you said. Zoloft? Oh, no, I thought you said Zomig. I thought you said Zomig. I thought you said Zomig after that.

There's all kinds of them. I mean, I could keep going, but yeah, there's a ton of them. It doesn't matter. So it, you know, basically is, it's not like the other stuff they used to give you before that was shit that would

just kind of knock you out. It was like a horse tranquilizer. You'd be sleepy. A lot of them would make you get fat and lazy, basically. So if you're depressed, fat and lazy isn't the best addition to that roster. Your body changing and making you feel less happy is just going to

make the depression worse. Well, that's also some of the SSRIs make you have zero sex drive whatsoever. Which, you know, some people don't care about because if you're in such a fucking horrible place of depression that you're worried about

killing yourself, sex drive probably isn't your first problem that you're really thinking about. So you're happy just to feel a little bit better. But after a while, you're like, hey, I'd like to be normal. You know, so then you have to deal with that. And so there's all sorts of different things, and they can give you a different drug that helps with this and all sorts of shit like that. So anyway,

the university, a psychiatrist quoted in a news piece here, Dr. Fred Reimer, the director of the University of Utah Medical Center's Mood Disorders Clinic, said Prozac is effective because it's biochemically different in its actions. Okay. So the demand gets very big. At one point here, that health expert said that the drug is, quote, so common here it should be considered one of the four food groups. Oh. Which I bet, because also you have a lot of, uh,

you have a lot of like housewives that have eight children also. So I bet you they're kind of depressed from time to time. You know what I mean? This general area that everybody's on it, huh? In Utah, yeah. Wow. Now, his mom, Connie, said after he started taking it, he just got to be very different. He's a different guy.

She said he suffered insomnia, headaches, mood changes. He fidgeted. He just wasn't J.C. when he was on Prozac. Isn't interesting. Wasn't that guy. Now, they're not, and these are the documented and warned about side effects. Yeah. Headaches.

Insomnia, mood changes, fidgeting, trembling shit. There's a list of side effects that are possible that are that fucking long, basically. And every drug you take, that's what they are, no matter what it is. Every goddamn thing there is. Huge. You know, that's the FDA approved package insert has all these on there. The only way for the FDA to ban a substance is for them to have, approved it in the first place.

And so all these things that have all these fucking side effects, they're okay with that. That's fucking wild to me. Well, what are you going to do? If it over, if the overwhelming, if it's, you know,

more good thing. It's fixing the fix. Yeah. And you're okay with these side effects, then whatever. And that doesn't mean you're going to. And it's not everybody. That's the other thing.

You might not have any side effects. Or you might have a few or you might have, and then you have to weigh, is that worth it or not. That's all. I think that's how you do. Just to take it. Yeah.

So 89 tough year for JC. He tries to kill himself twice in this year. While he's on Prozac? While he's on Prozac. With barbiturate overdoses, he goes for. So two different times. That's a lot here, I would say. So the first time he tried doing it,

he wrote his mother a note first. Yeah. Before he took the pills. He was really planning on going out. Sure. Then, before he took the pills, he called his LDS bishop. He called his church bishop and asked the bishop to come over because, quote, my mother's going to need you in a little while. So you should come over.

Oh, to console her. Okay. To console her. So he calls, writes his mother a note and calls the bishop to try to set his mother up beforehand. And so, yeah, the way he wanted it was he wanted his mother to come home, find the body, and have the bishop. already be there so he could help her. Like, okay. So he survives both these attempts.

They keep him on the Prozac. At some point, the doctor increases the dose at some point and doesn't take him off. Now, so his dad's dead living with his mom. He's still working 10 hours a week. He's like 31 years old. His life isn't going exactly how he wanted it to it. It's not great. It's not great.

And the other thing I would say is, the depression of losing a parent should be a temporary depression. Yeah, there should be a low, and then from there it's a build, but it's an ebbin flow build. It's like a really good penny stock. Yeah, whatever the, which means it doesn't exist. So, yeah, there's a good IPO, I guess. It's just at the beginning it goes up. then it comes down a little bit.

It's a roller coaster for grief. It's brutal. It's not constant. No, no, no, no. But it's definitely something that unless you're eight, as an adult, you should probably naturally get over in a little while. Yeah. It's the circle.

It's literally the circle and cycle of life. Certainly. Yeah. You grow off. Sometimes you just take the grief with you for the rest of your life. You're just not, just doesn't, it's dulled a bit. Yes, but I don't. I don't know about that.

I mean, the grief, yeah, and everyone to say, oh, I still grieve my mom and all that, but you're not actively thinking about your dead parents constantly, and you shouldn't be for 20 fucking years afterwards. If you're a depressive person kind of prone to that to begin with, it's one thing. That could end up just kicking you down that path. But I feel like if you're a happy person, normally,

you have no depressive features. Your dad dies. You're a little bit sad. And about a year you should feel better. not 100% better but sure you know to the point where you'd be like okay I can I you know I've come to terms with it sure that sort of thing I would think

everybody's different but still so close to a parent yeah I guess they are happy because that parent exists you know what I mean yeah that's true too because that relationship with that parent exists they're just that's what carries them and then when they lose that parent it fucking decimates them and maybe if the dad wasn't too old and it was a surprise that he died to that can be worse if it's a surprise.

Because when someone is sick for five years, you, you, you, you should know that there's an end to this. Well, when someone's sick for five years, the death is drawn out. So it's not that big punch. And then you have all this depression. It's, it's this depression that kind of gets watered down over time. And by the end, if people are honest, they actually are happy the person went. Relieved.

Yeah. Relieved. If it's not happy, it's certainly relieved because this poor bastard is not doing all that bad shit that I've watched him. It's not only that. In reality, when they're honest, they're actually happy because they've actually started to resent that person for being alive. Not on purpose. No, that's what they say.

Any psychiatrist will tell you that. They are resenting that person for being alive, not on purpose. Putting all of us through this. They're just tired of it. And as a human being, you're like, fuck. But then they feel guilty for having those feelings, which compounds the whole thing and makes them feel terrible. So it's a horrible cycle. We're way off the subject.

Anyway. Nancy, back to Nancy. Remember Nancy Snow? In October 88, about a month before J.C.'s dad dies, she goes to an LDS singles party and meets J.C. Yeah. Okay. By the way, they have Mormons have very big mixers and singles and events and all kinds of shit like that, basically. Now, at this party, that's when Nancy and J.C. meet, and she's a few.

years older than him. Yeah. Been divorced twice. She's LDS, though, you know, born into a LDS family and all that kind of thing. So close enough, you know, twice divorced happens. But in one thing, the Mormons do divorce quite a bit. Yeah. But you are expected to get remarried real fast.

And wear a cream dress. You can't wear white dress. No, no, I can't wear a white dress, obviously. But they, that's a, that's a big deal. Like they want to, you got to cook yourself right back up again. Otherwise, a single person is not with children is not respectable in their things. In the 80s, anyway, I don't know about now. So she's looking for a guy.

And like I said, she's working at this receptionist at the St. George Care Center. Janice is the, you know, works there as well. Now, J.C. pursued Nancy after the singles party. He sent her flowers, bouquets of roses. Oh. Very romantic. He's very much traditional. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, shows up to the nursing, you know, sends the flowers. They show up to the nursing home. So at work, she's got the big flowers on her desk like some people like. And he also shows up a lot at her job because he only works 10 hours a week or so. And so he just kind of hangs around her desk. Yeah. Which is weird. Like Jim from the office, but he's not getting a paycheck for being here.

I don't know that reference. Like she, like a guy, I don't know, I've never watched the office. It's horrible. I'm talking the No, he's like a guy who's like 15, 16 and his girlfriend works at Dairy Queen so he always hangs out of Dairy Queen. He's just standing there. Because he can

Yeah. But this is like an office and like a professional environment. He shouldn't be hanging out with your girlfriend. The administrator of the place said that Nancy quote became like a little rabbit. She was more like a possession he owned. Little

rabbit's a weird way to put it, but I get it with the possession thing. Nancy doesn't her coworkers really what's going on. She also tells the coworkers that J.C. is smothering her and he always shows up and I'm tired of these flowers. And she doesn't really act like she likes him that much. She's like, I don't know. I think, you know, he's too much.

Then in April of 89, after knowing him about six months, she just shows up one day at work married. What? We got married over the weekend. The courtship worked. It worked. Yeah. I'm Nancy Snow Gardner now.

Wow. Put it on my paperwork. That's it. Like, got married over the weekend. So it's interesting. Their marriage doesn't go very well. No? No.

Now, Connie, J.C.,'s mom, said he wanted to make it work. Off the, and off and on, she did. It was like a continual yo-yo. She just didn't want to be married anymore. Huh. That's right. Connie also claims that Nancy used to call all the time, call Connie, her mother-in-law, to say that she's the source of the marital

problems. Very convenient for Connie to remember that. She wouldn't blame myself. Oh, Connie, you're doing this. No, no, no, no. I'm doing it. Oh, Nancy is. Nancy will call and go, I'm fucking everything up. I'm the source of all of our troubles. Let me tell you, I'm wrong, just all the time. God, am I terrible at this, Connie? It doesn't seem like it probably happened, but, you know, that's what Connie says. Nancy moves out in three weeks. What? They get married And in three weeks

She's not living To move out of the house In three weeks Three weeks I'd like to say that is a crazy thing But I'll tell you after the show I when I was a kid experienced An exact same thing

A three week Marriage Sort of Well no Because it's lasted About 40 years But it started out lasting three weeks And that's

I'll tell you later So in June of 89, she files for a divorce. Done with his bullshit, apparently. She also files for a restraining order against him when she files for the divorce. Oh. Same day. September 89, the divorce is final.

Now, J.C. doesn't take divorce as final. No? It's pretty fucking final, I would say. We can rekindle this. This is as final as it gets. Now, there is the claims, and apparently he does have some proof of this. that Nancy's sending him love letters over this period, though. Like, they're, yeah, so there's mixed signals coming from both sides here during this whole thing.

Love letters or explanations of why we're not together? Some, no, love letters. Wow. Yeah, like, you know, I do miss you and that kind of thing. Okay. With the restraining order, too. So this is bad. Now, and then sometimes she's saying, I don't want you near me, and sometimes she's sending him letters.

And so, yeah, whatever. So he then went over the top. with it and would show up at her job, show up at her house, send her letters, uh, refuse to leave her alone despite a restraining order. Yeah. You know, if she actually is sending him letters, he needs to throw them right in the garbage and say, not, I'm not dancing with this fucking shit. I'm not doing it.

But instead, yeah. He, I don't even know if the letters are real, but that's what he says. Yeah. At that point, you'd got to be thinking, she got a restraining order on me. She's sending me, these are baiting me to come to her so that I go to jimps. I'm not doing it. I'm not buying into shit. Yeah.

I don't think Mormons have that dark of a turn of thought, though. No. I think they honestly, I don't think they think that. Maybe they do, but I feel like there's a... Like he wouldn't or she wouldn't? We're from... I don't think he would think that way. Or neither would she.

I think they would think that like, oh, you know, this is on the surface. I just, I don't know. They don't seem quite as subversive and quite as, you know, quite as... I don't even know if cynical is the right. word here. Yeah, they just, they don't seem to have as much street smarts as, I mean, they're raised to not really have street smarts. That's the point. They don't want them to have street smarts. So it's not an insult to Mormons to say you don't have street smarts. It's literally, yeah, everybody knows what I'm on for Christ's sake. People that know that aren't street smart. No. So Nancy Snow and Janice during this time, where they're broken up, Nancy Snow is. and Janice become best friends.

Best friends here. Nancy's a receptionist. Janice is the nurse. Janice is going to get a promotion to be head of the nursing staff pretty soon here too. They work in the same building, see each other every day,

go out to lunch together, you know, whatever. Best is. And Janice really is necessary for Nancy. Nancy's really happy to have her there because she becomes her sounding board. Janice becomes Nancy's sounding board. Janice will listen to her,

support her because Janice is a sweet woman. She's just a, she's a nice girl, as her mom said. That's right. Janice is the one talking to Nancy about all of her problems and all the pressure she's under. And Janice gives Nancy some advice. Okay. She would, this is from a co-worker. She said, Fondren nurtured Snow, so Janice nurtured Nancy after the divorce, urging her to stand up to her ex-husband.

Oh. Stand up to him. She said, Janice is the last. the friend who told her that, quote, you don't have to put up with this, tell him to leave you alone. Don't let him be a creep. You know, don't just, don't go along with this. Don't just let it happen.

If he violates that restraining order, you call the cops every time. That's good therapy. It is. That's what she needs. A good friend. And, you know, Janice just has her head on really straight. That's just how she is as a person. So, J.C. continues to harass Nancy.

She experienced all sorts of harassment, including telephone calls, even some, like, physical confrontations where he apparently roughed her up a little bit. Pushed her, shoved her, pulled her up against a wall. Why are you doing this? Shit like that. She eventually obtained a restraining order again, but he continued

to come to her residence and even would leave notes on her car, proof that he was there, which is the dumbest shit ever. You're not supposed to be on my property. I wasn't there. I wasn't there. Well, why is this note here under my windshield wiper then, stupid? Are you JC? Give me a difference. Did you

write this on the back of the Chinese food menu? that was left on her doorknob, because it's here. May of 1990 is when Janice gets the promotion to director of nursing. Her boss said that Janice was terrific. One in a million. She was one of the new young nurses who had such a deep, deep energy and love for long-term care patients. That is such a rare quality. Wow, that's a great person to have around there.

So July of 90 at a bar, that's when some shit goes. down. Now, St. George does not have a lot of bars. No, we've heard. Really doesn't. It really doesn't. Even Salt Lake City, not really overflowing with bars. And the ones they have are real fucking weird. They're real weird. We found a good place. Yeah. That seemed like a lot of other people found, because there was a whole lot of people drinking in there after that volleyball tournament let out. We found a way to get good and wine drunk in Salt Lake City. You're not allowed to buy a double in Salt Lake City. They can't serve you to do. That's why. No, that's weird a shit.

That's so silly. No, but we had no problem drinking a bottle of wine. Look, if somebody wants to get drunk, we'll figure out how to fucking get drunk. Stop passing laws to try to keep me from getting drunk. All it is is, okay, fine. You're going to have to walk back and forth one more fucking time is what that means. If I'm at a table, because I'll take one, then give me another one. What are we talking about here?

Go get me another when you drop this off because it'll be gone by the time you get back. That's it. Go start it going. So most of the bars are like there's hotels and things like that for tourists because people who come from out of town, you know, they're normal and want to drink. We don't have to partake by your fucking rules. Yeah, I don't want a dirty soda. I want something that'll make me forget my problems. At least I feel them as much.

Nope. So J.C. approaches Nancy at the bar. Janice is with Nancy. And Janice was basically, Janice is the one people said that was out for drinking. that night, Nancy was just hanging out with her. She wasn't drinking or anything. J.C. shows up and approaches. Janice says, let's just go and gets up. And there's witnesses around saying this. And Janice yelled right in his face, leave Nancy alone, shouting at him, really getting in his face and

saying, get the fuck out of here. And multiple witnesses heard her telling him to back off and leave her alone and, you know, go away so we can get out of here. And really had quite a confrontation that everybody saw. Then July 21st, 1990, Janice filed a complaint on her own behalf because he's getting her. Now he's harassing her. Right. He pops up behind her back gate. She's scared of him, essentially.

July 21st was the day that Nancy saw him peeking through the back fence. Now, July 22nd in the morning, that is when they show up at the house, there's blood, all of this. So you can see why Nancy said, look at my ex-husband. Yeah. Because we can't think anybody else. Now, July 23, 1990, the day after they discover the apartment and she's missing, we still don't have any idea where she has, Janice. We just know a large amount of what's presumed to be her blood is deposited on her living room floor and entryway. So this day, J.C. is arrested, not for murder, not for kidnapping, not for any of the above.

He's arrested on misdemeanor charges, including two counts of criminal trespass, one count each of lewdness and telephone harassment. Oh. Now, this isn't even stemming from the last couple days. This is stemming from incidents on July 6th and July 9th involving Janice and Nancy Snow. That they've been investigating. That he's, yeah, so they decided they were real and they arrest him for it, actually. It's a violation of a restraining order, lewdness, all that. He is released on July 25th after posting a $3,000 cash bail.

That's high. So that's a lot for that. So for two days, he's in jail until the 25th. And they also know he is a suspect, obviously. Now, when they arrested him, he was wearing shoes that matched the track pattern found outside the kitchen window. So that's not good. That's how they got Richard Ramirez, by the way, the nightstock. Those are fucking Avias.

So that's a, not great. They were no super, yeah. Do they even have ugs in 1990? I don't know. I don't know that maybe have only been in Australia because that's where they came from. Yeah, maybe. That's where you need boots, Australia. Yeah.

Good hot, warm boots. Some nice furry hot, warm boots for me to sit in the fucking outback when it's 140 degrees. Thick lined. Really good boots is what I need. A wool-lined boots. Essentially, in our mind in Australia, you should either wear sneakers, sandals, or something made of crocodile skin. We're not sure what. Or you cut up an old tire and string some string through it to make a flip-flop.

Yeah, that's fine. You can do that. Milk carton. Now, witnesses here, they also find out that between 2 a.m. and 2.30 a.m. on the night that she would have disappeared, this witness, heard a vehicle outside Janice's apartment and observed, quote, a man doing something to Janice's car. And the car was backed up to the front door of the apartment. Oh. So they saw her car backed up to the front door where all the blood drag marks were.

Where there's like a hood up or something because they're doing something to the car. Yeah, doing something. They don't know what. Now, the vehicle was observed pulling away 10 minutes later. Okay. Okay. A second witness also observed a male drive Janice's vehicle into Janice's parking spot at about 3 a.m. This witness was walking to a friend's apartment and saw this.

So she drives, she had a Ford Thunderbird, an 80s Thunderbird. And that's the car that they see backed up and then someone else sees it pull in. So we know about when it left and about when it came back. Between 2 and 2.30, the car took off, and then around 3 o'clock, the car's back in the lot. So presumably, the body went into the car, drove off. Half hour and came back. So we know the body isn't in Oregon. No, it's in a 15-minute halo around here.

That's it. It has to be. So that's something they figure out, too, that it can't be that far if those are the timelines. And you never know people's times are fucked up. But still, whether it's within an hour or an hour. hour and a half, it still means it's not in, you know, really, really far. So all of this is enough to get a search warrant for J.C.'s apartment. House. Yeah. House. They get the search warrant. They go there. They find a folding shovel, like one of those shovels. Two pairs of rubber gloves in the trash. In the trash. In the trash. A nine millimeter handgun. Oh. Which, by the way, nine millimeter is a caliber.

they think went through the window. Yeah, so we got a shell casing of it in the floor. Up there, and we got the shell casing. So they found that. They also find nine millimeter ammunition as well that he has there. So they send all that off to the lab. That's going to take a couple of days to get the ballistics back on that. So two days later, the police are informed by the crime lab that the pistol that was taken from J.C.'s residence is the one that fired the shell found in the apartment.

Well, that was easy. That was pretty easy. So essentially what they believe is, this is the theory that they have working, on July 21st, after, you know, he knows he's got a restraining order and all that. He's sitting at home stewing because we knew he was home based on some calls that were made. And he's been thinking about Janice now for a few days because she put a restraining order on him and he's all pissed off. he somehow in this in this period he bought a folding shovel and bought two pairs and bought gloves rubber gloves so he has two pairs of rubber gloves and he already had a nine millimeter handgun okay now he tells he will tell his mother and his mother will tell everyone else later on that that day he took a double dose of Prozac double dose double dose I don't know why you would do that I don't know why you would do that I don't know why Why? He said, what's what he said. He told his mother that he was feeling, quote, extra depressed that day. Well, look, man, that's going to hit about six weeks.

I'm double depressed, is what I got going on. So double the shit. So then they think of July 22nd, 930, he drove over to the apartment. The apartment has the back kitchen window that opens onto dirt, popped off the screen, male men's sneaker that's photographed and matched to his other shoe. goes in the kitchen window, has everything, the gloves, the 9mm, the shovel, and, you know, did what he did. And we'll get into what that is exactly in a little bit here. So now Janice's parents say that she knew this, she knew him. So they said, does he know, does your daughter know this guy? Nancy said she knows her, but does she know him? And she said, the parents said, yes, she does know him, but we wouldn't say they were friends.

That's all she would say. There's some weirdly weird reporting in newspapers from the time that say that Janice had gone out with JC for a while in the interim. Did not happen. The mistakes. I was like, you can't put that in the newspaper. Jesus Christ. Luckily, we check more than one source when we're doing this to make sure to find it other places. I'm like, that's in nowhere else.

As a matter of fact, she hated him and got restraining orders against him. That's just a mistaken. And Nancy met him first. Some reporter heard that and missed put that onto Janice and wrote an article about it. Damn it. That's tough. I'm sure they did a retraction or at least a correction on that one. So Betty Joe and John, her parents arrive in St. George.

That's Janice's parents. They arrive from South Carolina to go there and they're prepared for the worst because obviously it doesn't look like their daughter's alive. they told the Daily Spectrum newspaper that even though their daughter's case was being treated as a missing person, quote, we have every indication that our daughter is dead, they said. Betty Joe said, the thing that has me so upset is that I may not have a body to take home. That's what's killing me. That is fucked up. That's fucked up. But there's definitely not nobody, no crime here.

This is a crime and we're looking into it for sure. So at least there's not that. At least you're not going, well, I mean, she could turn up any point. So we really can't look into it. She may have left on her own. You never know. So they also said there's a lot of secrecy around the investigation. And the couple said that that is also very frustrating.

They're not telling us everything. Yeah. Cops can't give you the information because if it gets out, they hold things close so they can get the real guy. You could accidentally let it slip in a press interview and then, you know, we're fucked now. So they said at home, meaning South Carolina, if this had occurred, there would be people coming out of the woodwork to finder. That's not happening here for. But they are. They're not just out randomly looking through a field, but they're looking, they're trying to figure this out science, more and more scientifically, I believe. But I get, hey, you show up, your daughter's missing. They don't find her right

that day. You're frustrated and understand. It's also how we put people to death for false confessions in South Carolina. Maybe we take the little easy down here. Yeah. Maybe we, maybe we do that. So her car is the thing they're really looking at. Her car, they know, there's black brush. It's what it's called. Black brush. Stuck to the undercarriage of the car. Now, it's a desert plant.

It's, ooh, calliogene Ramisysissima. That's the sign to the botan. If you were a botanist, you'd know it by that. Unfortunately, neither was it botanist. Very common in the Mojavean Great Basin. Grows in clusters in the dirt

and catches on shit all the time. Oh. It'll catch on the shit. So if you drive your car off road into the desert, basically it's going to get up in your wheel wells. And people will know you are in the desert. And you'll move it somewhere else and then it'll rain and it'll grow there too. That's right. That's how it works.

So July 26th, 1990. Now, this is a day after JC gets bailed out for the harassment and lewdness and all that kind of shit. This is in the Shivwitz Reservation now. So we're outside the town. We're on to a reservation. Now, this is the fourth day that they're looking for her. Somebody, and we don't know who, we believe it's a police department. It wasn't a random person.

Someone finds a body out here. It's 150 feet off Camp Spring Road, Camp Springs Road, one mile west of Motokwa. Is that how you say that? M-O-T-O-Q-A. I've never heard that one. Mataqua, I don't know. And a few, a Mataquoa Road and a few miles north of U.S. old U.S. Highway 91. This is 15 miles west of St. George.

Hey. Which is the perfect amount of time. That's 15 minutes away. Bang, bang, do what you need to do. Get back in the car within an hour. You're back. 60 miles an hour right back the other way. That's it.

And it's on a highway. Yeah. Now, by examining the type of brush and tree limbs and road dust found on the Thunderbird belonging to Janus, they figured that the car was used to bring her out here, obviously. This is evidence they're putting together. Now, based on the foliage at first, that's why they were looking in this area. Oh. They were looking for basically, because they had two parameters. They basically had, okay, place where black brush grows.

Yep. That is within this halo of us. So anything around there is fine, and that's what they're looking for. So that's why they're doing this, which is very smart way to do it. Now they said that where the body was discovered, they found it in the middle of the night. So they basically had to just secure the scene. Yeah, it can't do much in daylight. So the Utah Medical Examiner's Office is out there.

The searchers had combed from Castle Cliffs on the south to Tenico mine site on the north and from central to snow canyon and roads branching off of it is what they said so they had basically a big yeah a big circle they were so they were searching now the problem here is it's 110 fucking degrees outside and it's been 110 disappear in a minute every day yeah yeah for a body to sit outside for four days and 110 degree heat is absolutely forensically a nightmare nothing is there yeah It's destroyed. Decomposed hardly. My uncle died in 113.

He was there for 48 hours and they had to go identify him and it wasn't that wasn't. They were like, ah, maybe. Imagine four days. And also there's animals out there too. There's scavengers is what they are in the desert. And that's, it's not good. It's bad. So decomposition, what they think is, and we'll tell you why, but they're pretty sure.

They believe this is fucking horrifying. that she was sexually assaulted after she was killed. Really? That's the thought here. Yeah. It's post, which is... I mean, I guess if she's shot at the house, that means they waited till out there?

Yes. Wow. Which is really just fucking horrifying in every aspect. Yeah. For the corpse, even for him, what are you doing? You know, you fucking monster. It's disgusting. The position of the body is one thing also.

She's posed. Oh my God. So, I mean, this is not a dump under a bush. I don't want anyone to see this. She's fucking posed, man. Yeah. Yeah. That's why he, if there's a sexual assault, that's why.

That's a dangerous person. I'll show you. A scary person. Yeah. She's posed feet apart, hands above her head. So very much in a posed way. Also, she's undressed as well. Uh-huh.

Which, no reason for that otherwise. It's been there for three days, 110 degree heat. This is Paiute land out here, by the way, on the reservation. They find two blankets nearby from her house. Yeah. They also find her pink pajamas there and her underwear in a pile nearby. So she was going to bed. Yeah.

She was in her house. It was the middle of the night when this happened. She was in bed, probably. She probably heard a noise, came out, and then this. confrontation happened. As you can imagine, I'm sure she wasn't shy when she saw him. You know, and she probably said, I'm going to call the cops.

Fuck you. And this is what happened. And they also find a beer can nearby. This beer can would be so helpful now. Useless back then, unless there's a fingerprint on it pretty much. Because this is somebody's brand. This is somebody's beer can. They never

can forensically match that beer can to J.C. because there's no DNA. You can't get DNA off of a beer can back then. So, or anybody. Yeah, no, that's just a random beer can. But it seems it's right in next to the pajamas and underwear. Certainly part of this.

Looks like it goes together. Basically, this location is consistent with someone who wanted the body basically the fuck away from wherever they were, middle of nowhere. The body is identified as Janice by multiple things. Her number one, her clothing and things like that and then dental records eventually to make it 100% positive. So now they go in a row. arrest J.C. All right. He's arrested outside the Hall of Justice building by law enforcement

officers. I think they asked him to come in for something. And then they just, as he was walking up, they slapped the cuffs on him. And he's charged with first degree murder. Oh, boy. Oh, yes. And four related misdemeanor charges as well. So, yeah, Chris is a, basically, one of them is that also they're saying this first degree homicide was in the commission of an aggravated burglary as well. What did he take? He broke in. Oh, got it.

Yeah, that's, yeah. So. And also stole her car. He brought it back. There's that. Yeah. So his bail is set at half a million dollars. Like I said, this is the first homicide case in this city in four years.

Half a million? It's a while. It sounds low, too, doesn't it? It does. But it's 1990. You got to look at it that way. That's like, you know, four million now, basically. Three and a half million dollars now, which.

still. And also, I think that he just has no chance of raise in half a million. I don't think so either, yeah. Yeah, the back then especially. So at his arraignment, the judge denied his request for appointed legal counsel due to varied financial assets. If you have any money, they won't declare you indigent until you spend all that money on a lawyer. Then they can give you lawyer. So during the indigency hearing, the, J.C. said there was a large number of guns in his home that had belonged to his recently

deceased father, which he had access to use and which the court viewed as collateral for hiring his own attorney. Oh, so they said, sell those. Sell you a bunch of, sell all your guns. Do that. Yeah. Now, here is the theory that they've put everything together. He left his apartment at 1 a.m. with a 9mm. with a.m.

Ruger pistol, entered the apartment, obviously taken off the kitchen screen. When Janice heard it and came downstairs, because her bedroom's upstairs. When she came downstairs and confronted him, he shot her in the chest. Now, they believe based on the wound and even with the decomposition, that she died pretty much instantly. Like she was dead within a minute. I mean, there's no, there's no, she wasn't being dragged out there alive or anything like that. So they don't know, by the way, she shot once in the chest, and there's only one shell casing.

So they don't know if the bullet wound was a through and through that went then went through the window. Probably, yeah. Or if that's a second shot that went through the window. If he shot twice on the first one, she went down, the second one hit the window. And the casing is just gone somewhere. Either that or he might have picked that casing up, but couldn't find the other one. Right. Because you're frantic and it's the middle of the night, too.

So it's dark. So you might not have found them. Blood on the carpet, blood on the door, blood on the front porch, you know, obviously dragging. So they know the shot was from the inside of the apartment based on the shell casing. And Janice, they said basically, so they're trying to figure out the number of rounds. But either way, they figure he shot one of them, so it doesn't matter, or both of them if there was two. So he either shot twice or once, essentially. Then he carries her and drags her out of the apartment to her car, obviously.

There's blood all over the place. He wrapped her in a bed spread and then placed it in the trunk of her own car, which was backed up to the front door. So this is just, I mean, he's just, he wrapped the body up and put it in the trunk. like it was a fucking sort of package. Got it into her car. He had rubber gloves on and he wiped up some of the blood in the apartment. That's one of the things. Some of the blood like on the walls is like wiped up.

There's evidence of that. Drove out to the Shivitz Indian Reservation and turned on to a road leading to the Beaver Dam wash where he disposed of her body after he did took her clothes off and God knows what else he did. They found the black brush, like we said, that's there. Then when he's done, three o'clock in the morning, he drives 22 miles, or that's we drove out to 22 miles out to there. This spot is 22 miles from Janice's joint from her place. So he must have stripped her, removed her clothes and underwear, pajamas, leave them behind, also left the blankets behind a beer can. And they do say from the report, the evidence also suggests. Gardner sexually assaulted the victim after he killed her.

Terrible. That's in the court documents. So that's horrifying. Then he drove back to St. George with the black brush and the wheel wells and gets in his car and goes home. Wow. Like it never happened. Puts his rubber gloves in the trash, which by the way, they were still in the trash four days later at his home. A lot of taking out the trash at this house.

It puts the folding shovel, which I don't even know why he. I guess he got out there and was like, what am I going to dig a fucking hole out here? Well, those holes are awfully difficult to dig with one of those little ass shovels.

Oh. That's rare with. Yeah. The best equipment, deserts are so fucking hard. It's so hard to dig. And that shovel is, that's to build a small fire pit

and then be exhausted and sit by the fire. Exactly. In like the woods and soil, not in a fucking, not in the desert. So anyway, that was there.

and he brought all that back. I went to sleep, got up the next day, went to work, acted like nothing happened. Wow. Acted real normal. So can they get a confession from him? Because they have a lot of evidence. I mean, he kept it all in his apartment like an idiot.

Yeah. If he doesn't confess, he's real dangerous. Because this is fucking, this is insane. He claims to have a hazy recollection of what happened. Not really sure. He doesn't really know what happened here. Apparently here, he said he entered the front door, which we know isn't true. You know he came in the back door.

He said he... He came in the back window. He climbed in a window. It's not even a door. No. He's not even a back door. So he claims he went over there, he believes, in his very hazy recollection, he went over there to talk to Janice about reconciling with Nancy.

Okay. Because your ex-wife's friend really wants you to come over to talk at three o'clock in the morning. That's really when they're up for relationship counseling. The one that yells at you in bars. Yeah. So he said, then she turned the lights on and threatened to call the police and mace him as well. Oh. She said, I have mace and I'll spray you because she came down with mace.

And she came down and said, I'm going to mace you and call the cops. And so he shot her instead. But basically, quote, this is from the report, the next thing Gardner knew she was lying on the floor. Gardner reported he became frightened, disposed of the body, and brought the car back. Okay. Okay. Now, by the way, here are some reactions to this whole thing here. Remember her boss said she would skip into work?

Yeah. She said, last day she saw her, quote, she just bounced across that parking lot and that was the end of her. It was just really disturbing. You know, the exact same reaction I had at three in the morning. I was like, what the fuck? How damn, lady. That was the end of her. Like, that is depressing.

It's like a terrible nursery rhyme. Yeah, that was the end of her. No more? Nope, that's it, kids. Enjoy. So, sure. The lesson. Don't skip.

Don't be too damn happy about everything. That's the lesson. Hold the little bit back. That's the lesson. close to the best. Save some for later. One of her bosses says she was a friend to everyone. She was one of those people, one of those exceptional people, one that won't be easily forgotten.

I can honestly say, I didn't know anyone who didn't like her. And they also said this is an enormous loss, not just to us, but to the entire nursing field. Okay. The world over. The world over. Which one, she's a good nurse. Yeah, she could have gone anywhere and plied that trade and done well and helped people. He's saying his confession leaves out the part where he shot her.

Next thing I know she's on the ground. That's how they always say, yeah, next thing I know, she's lying on the ground. What do you do then? Who knows? So the problem now is jurisdiction. The murder happened in St. George and the city limits. The body was dumped on the Paiute Reservation. Yeah.

Which that, by the way, is an interesting thing because they're talking about in some scenario. that would trigger a federal jurisdiction under the Major Crimes Act, which gives the Fed's jurisdiction over major crimes committed by or against Indians in Indian country. Oh. The problem is Janice is not Indian and neither is J.C. And it's hard, but it's hard to determine where she died, where she shot, we know. Yeah. But when did she die?

We don't know. She said she died in less than a minute. So she died in St. George. So then she died back there. Yeah. That's that large pool of blood is unsurvivable, they said. That was enough blood to die on the floor. She was dead before she left the apartment.

They know that much. So the killing happened off the reservation. The disposal happened on the reservation. Under the case law, particularly Section 6A, by the way, defines that where a killing legally occurs, the killing is where the death act occurs, which is St. George, so the jurisdiction is the state. But if either one of them had been Native American, it would have been a whole different thing. Yeah.

Then it would have triggered something. Then you would have had a fight over it was on the reservation, but it happened in the city, but there were actually Indians and it was on the reservation. It would have been a mess. Oh, boy. So, yeah. Anyway, the prosecutor here is W. Brett Langston. I like when people have an initial first.

In the 90s. W. Brent. Brent. Brent. Brent. Yeah. So that's what they do.

Now, the defense, he has a court appointed attorney. and he is a character of the highest order. Wow. The court appointed attorney is Alan D. Boyak, B-O-W-A-C-K. And you can go to a newspaper archive and just Google his name. And, oh, boy, there's some wild shit that comes up. He is a character, a character and a very famous lawyer in this area here. Now, he is a real colorful guy.

I've got to kind of give you a little on his background. He's 50 years old in 1990. He calls himself a big man and a big talker. That's what he says of himself. He says, he's a big man with a big talker and he tells stories with the flair. This is the Deserette News newspaper said. He tells stories with the flair of a TV evangelist. Oh, boy.

He's very bombastic in the courtroom. And he's a big guy, too. Big guy. He's very loud. You know, all this type of shit here. He also here was a green beret in Vietnam. Uh-huh. Special Forces guy in Vietnam, retired from the Army as a lieutenant colonel.

Those guys rarely talk. That's what I mean. He's a big talker. He, you know, does all that kind of shit. They said about him, the Desiret News did a profile about him. And he said that he keeps the green beret in his office there. Oh, he still has it. It still has it and keeps it there because he wants people to notice it.

He said in his words, the Green Beret is evidence that I like a good fight. I don't back down. So it's an intimidation thing. He passed the bar in 1976, and this is hilarious because it piggybacks a conversation we had a few days ago. He passed the bar in what he describes as, quote, four and a half tries. My last attempt. Four and a half. I don't know what that.

Yeah, I don't know what half a try is, but he said, probably his first try. He said, I'm so stubborn that even, he just did half of it and left. I don't know any of this shit. He said,

I'm so stubborn that even after four failed attempts at the bar, I kept going. Which normally, we were talking the other day, and that was our number too. We said, if you fail your road tests for driving or the bar four times,

you just don't get to. to do it. That's it. I think it was, I think we landed on three. Three for a road test. Yeah. I don't know if we came to a conclusion on the bar. I think the bar should be three also. If you can't pass it after three, I think you're done. Three on a road test is good news, bad news. Yeah. Good news, or bad news first, you didn't pass. Good news is here's a lifetime bus pass on us. You're never allowed to drive again. Yeah. Sorry. Be real kind to the Uber drivers. You're going to need them. So that's what he's been doing. He gets that.

He also, he pilots his own plane. Oh, boy. He flies back and forth. He has a satellite office in Century City in L.A. In L.A.? Yes, where he has, he commutes by his own plane between L.A. and St. George. And he does a bunch of, like, celebrity type cases, including he worked on the estate of Howard Hughes. Really?

Howard Hughes, Howard Hughes, billionaire, eccentric. lunatic. After he died? Yeah, he worked on the state for that, which was a big giant case. And he was a public defender in Utah for years. He's on the list of public defenders in the area of people that can be called to do this. He's handled multiple murder cases. And the other weird thing is, at the same time that he's a high-powered, multi-jurisdictional defense attorney,

he's also the Mojave County Arizona coroner. What? I don't know. That's what he also does. I guess you'd have to live there, right? I guess not. I don't know. It's across the border there.

Who the fuck knows you? But I imagine Bullhead City, Kingman, there is death there all the time. All the goddamn time. Those people are so fucking old. Plus, they're killing each other over meth constantly. Yeah. And the heat, between the heat, the meth, and the old. It's all day.

So he's got a radio mounted in his car that connects to the whole sheriff's office. He does that, which is really weird. So technically, he could drive, declare a body dead, and then go back and defend the guy who killed the body. That's unbelievable. Which is crazy. I don't know if that would be allowed, but it's interesting. He was also, and this is another thing, before he was an attorney, he was a police officer in Bountiful City as well.

Where the fuck is that? That's in California, in it? That's in Utah. So he's been special forces, Green Beret, a Hollywood attorney, a pilot, a coroner, a cop, a public defender. This is the guy that he needs as his lawyer

because he's done all that shit too. He knows that. Yeah, he's like, listen, you think that's a lot. So the first thing he wants to do is pursue an insanity defense. We're going straight insanity here. Oh, we're going to go,

I admit it, I'm crazy. That's right. He says about Prozac, quote, I let it go right over my head and was pursuing an insanity case. I'd never heard of Prozac. I didn't know what it was. Really?

Which is interesting for a coroner. You think that would be a... Yeah. And a guy in L.A. Yeah. Well, you think that would be a substance that would come up in dead bodies once in a while. Yeah. It would be that.

You'd think Howard Hughes was mainline in that shit. I would hope so... Well, maybe not. That's why you were so weird. Yeah, it may have been dead before that anyway. He was dead before. He was dead in the 80. 88. Yeah. I thought he died the 70s. Did he? It doesn't matter. He died on the plane, James. No, that's that's right. He loved planes.

So he learned about Prozac only because during talking to a buddy of his about this case, a pharmaceutical salesman who was a fraternity buddy of his mentioned it casually offhand. and this pharmaceutical sales rep he knew mentions at some point that, hey, this drug Prozac, I hear people do weird shit when they're on it. You should look into that. So then he said, oh, boy. So he interviewed mom, Connie Gardner. And when he's doing this, he's just building his insanity case. But he gets J.C.'s biographical material, says he reads the dictionary, Eagle Scout, LDS, mission, the whole deal. then he hears about the Prozac

and he called it his quote light bulb over the head moment he said that he heard from Connie that J.C. was extra depressed on the day of the murder and she said he took a double dose of Prozac. So that was after he had heard from his fraternity buddy

who told him about that shit and he says hold on wait tell me about that pill again he says to his buddy of the pharmaceutical cells, but I want to know more about that. And he said that that's when he started thinking about building a defense on involuntary intoxication. Oh, involuntary. Now, here are some Prozac issues.

And this, by the way, they've been talking about this for almost 40 years, and it continues to this day. And there are people who say they should ban all the SSRIs. That would be a disaster. Oh, you think there's a lot of... Unmitigated disaster. You think there's a lot of death and carnage out there today. Oh, forget about it. Unmitigated.

Yes, unmitigated, exactly. There's, people do weird shit on everything, whatever you do. Some people take Benadryl and freak out. So it's not, it's, you got to find the right thing, and every once in a while something happens. But if you ban this, then you also have to ban other shit that, that. Well, you got to understand that any drug that you're taking that's a drug that's to balance. chemicals in your body can have an issue. And that thing in there, that little noodle is so fucking fragile.

Oh, yeah. And everyone is different. Everyone is different for the most part, at least when it comes to how their brain chemistry reacts to medication, very different and very much, it can go multiple different ways. Delicate balance. But to ban those things because some people have a problem with them would be a kid. to banning fucking peanuts because people are allergic to them sometimes. Like, you can't do that, you know? If you do that and we still sell fucking AR-15s, I don't want to hear your fucking point.

You know what I mean? And we're still allowing people to throw all their money away on fucking Fandool, then fuck you. That's what I mean. You don't care about. People react to things differently. Exactly. So now, in February of 89, a Harvard psychiatrist, Dr. Martin Teker, publishes a paper in the American Journal of Psychiatry.

So this is very legitimate now. The paper documents six depressed patients, four of whom were also taking other drugs at the time. Okay. Which is important. And by the way, it's also important for our guy that we'll talk about. And they developed,

some of these developed intense, violent, suicidal preoccupations after two to seven weeks on the Prozac. This paper estimates that 3.5% of users may be at risk for this particular syndrome, which is minuscule. It's also about the amount of events based on how compared to how many people are on it. Yeah.

No, but I mean, 3.5% of millions of people is a shitload of people. Yeah, yeah. But it's still a small percentage compared to the people who get helped by this shit as well. So who knows? And we're not doctors and we're not fucking, we're not members of Congress or the FDA. So we're just going off of what this research says and we'll go from there. Dozens and dozens of people that medicate and are doing fantastic because of it. Oh, absolutely.

That were a mess before. Oh, my God. And it does, it will change your, I had a girlfriend in high school that her mom got sick and she went on Prozac. And she was within a week a completely different person. We were never, we never liked each other again. It was just, she was just a totally different personality. was completely different, but she wasn't suicidally depressed. So, you know, that's good for her.

She had drunk kids in a bathtub. That's nice. That's nice. Yeah. So, I mean, there was that. I mean, you know, so, I mean, it will change who you are a little bit because anything will. Yeah. You just got, finding, finding what works for you is fucking enormous.

So it's big. Good luck on your journey. Now, the, this paper, even though it sounds kind of pro prozac, saying that the people who had the problems were people who were people who on other drugs for the most part, and either way, it's only 3.5%. The people who don't like this type of thing at all, jump all over that as like, see? That's why you shouldn't do. Number one, church of Scientology. Number one, two, and three are them because they don't believe in drugs and they don't believe

in psychiatry. They don't believe in any of that shit. One, two, three, are Elron Hubbard, Tom Cruise, and John Travolta. They believe that if you give them all your money, you'll be fine. And you will. And you'll be fine. So they run an anti-psychiatry advocacy group, quote unquote, called Citizens Commission on Human Rights. They got a lot of balls calling it that.

Meanwhile, it's horseshit to force people to do our dumb shit that we want them to do, even though we are a crazy cult. Danny Masters and Rapes people. That's right. And we help cover it. So by 1990, they're putting out press releases about Prozac, the Scientology people are. They talk about September 1989, a 47-year-old printing pressman named Joseph Wesbecker in Louisville, Kentucky, walked into his former workplace, the standard Grevior printing plant attached to the Louisville Courier Journal with an AK-47 and shoots 20 coworkers killing eight of them before shooting himself. Dang. He'd been on Prozac for about five weeks.

When was that? 1989, September. Wow. He had a long history of severe mental illness, had been institutionalized, and was not only on Prozac, but a, quote, cocktail of psychiatric medications. And the Prozac was the new one. But the families of his victims advised by personal injury lawyers sued Eli Lilly. And it would like saying the Prozac is within it. Not the complete cocktail of other shit he was on.

So they had a trial. This is all, by the way, we're not just trying to give. like this is how we feel about, we don't know shit, we're not doctors. We're just giving you the legal background on it because it's important for the actual case later. So there was an 11-week trial in 1994 well after this murder thing here.

The jury finds an Eli Lilly's favor. But five years later, it comes out that Eli Lilly had reached a secret out-of-court settlement with the victim's family before the verdict came in and never told the judge. basically they wanted it to look like they'd won a jury trial, but they realized that they needed to pay out. So they paid out. So it's a settlement out of court.

Essentially. Now, the judge went back and changed the official designation of the case from verdict in favor of defendant to settled. So that way they couldn't say that they won the case, essentially. But that was in 1995. So that's way later. Now, they also conducted studies on Prozac for Eli Lilly as well as the clinic's internal use. And as a therapist and researcher, this one guy, the Rimer guy, said he had seen it work on about a thousand patients and plans more studies. The American Journal of Psychology is the one that talked about the Harvard guy.

They said the patients who developed the violent suicidal preoccupations all had self-destructive thoughts before. And they said that they suspected that the drug may have contributed to a new intensity in it. And that's, by the way, one of the side effects they say is suicidal thoughts. Sure. But when you have those, you have to go to your doctor and say you're having those and then they try to fix the medication. That's not working with you. It seems like what it does is makes you okay with things. Do you know what I mean?

That's what it's supposed to do. It makes you okay with going forward with some of those bad things. Maybe. It makes you not so sad about it. You know what? Fine. Other studies have shown on thousands of subjects have shown opposite results. And doctors acknowledge that the depression itself could result in suicide and violence.

They're like, these are people who are suicidal to begin with. So this they might just, this might not have worked enough on them actually, rather than intensifying those feelings. It might just not have worked enough, which then would make them even more depressed that I went and I got medication and I'm still depressed and they kill themselves. I tried to get help, it didn't work. And my ass is fat. And I got a fat ass, but this doesn't cause that. So that's good. Now, then there is the Grunberg precedent.

This is very important for Utah. The Boyack, the lawyer, the Green Beret coroner lawyer, thought, the Prozac defense might have a shot in front of this judge in St. George, Philip Eves, because a couple of years earlier, in a different drug case, there's the Elo Grunberg case or Ilo Grunberg. This was in 1988, June 19, 1988 in Hurricane, Utah. There's a town called Hurricane. That's never seen one. It's about 20 miles northeast of St. George, still in the county, though.

Now, this Ilo Marie Grunberg was 57 years old, lived in a mobile home in hurricane with her 82-year-old mother, Mildred. Oh, God. Now, Mildred has Alzheimer's. She's hard to deal with. Ilo is the caregiver. Okay. Now, it's tough. The two women have a hard time, as anybody does dealing with an Alzheimer's person in a one.

You need help with that. They get very irritable because they don't understand everything. They get violent. And they're adults and they have adults. They don't want to be told what to do. Yeah. Yeah. And they're violent.

They're nasty. They get really mean sometimes. So Mildred, according to later filings, is a burden to ILO. She's tired of it. ILO had recently lost her job and can't find any more work. Oh, no. And money's tight and stress is going. Her mom's getting worse and worse and worse.

Mildred is on, you know, she's, I'm Alzheimer's. patient and ILO is on three different medications, Valium, codeine, and a brand new at the time, not brand new, but reasonably new, sleeping pill called Halcyon. What? Which is a strong one. That's a strong. By the way, halcyon is the shit. It's domers.

All the wrestlers in the 80s used to put in women's drinks and knock them out and fucking do weird shit to them. They all say, oh, yeah, just drop a halcyon in their drink, and that's the end of that. She's taken painkiller. to Valium and then his Halcyon's

to sleep. That's manufactured by Upjohn, by the way, which we'll get into. Now, Halcyon, at this point in 88, was the most prescribed pill in the world,

sleeping pill. Really? Prescribed sleeping pill in the world. It's in the benzodiazepine area there. Same family as Valium Xanax, out of van, that kind of shit. But it has a

basically It's got a short activating window where you take it, you sleep, you wake up, and you feel fine. You don't feel like, oh, boy, oh, man, I need another two hours of sleep. Yeah. So the dose she was prescribed, Ilo Grunberg, is 0.5 milligrams a day, a night, take it at night. Now, March 88, three months before the killing here, Upjohn, stopped manufacturing the 0.5 milligram tablets because they've been getting reports that 0.5 was too high for some patients and cause. a lot of side effects. Yeah.

So Up John didn't, they stopped manufacturing it, but they didn't recall the 0.5 pills. Okay. So whatever was out there, we'll let them get rid of them. Even if they're in pharmacies or whatever,

don't pull them off the shelves. And they didn't tell the doctors that the 0.5 milligram had been discontinued. They sent letters to pharmacies about a suspension of the dosage and the letters didn't go out until eight days after Mildred was already shot.

It didn't help there. So I, Grunberg, prescribed a dose that the manufacturer didn't really want to make anymore here. And June 19, 1988, Ilo Grunberg gives her mother a birthday card because she's turned 83 that day. Then shoots eight bullets into her while she's sleeping and sleeping. Her mom's sleeping and her head and neck just shoots her eight times with a handgun. Then sits down and writes a detailed confession, then calls the cops.

Oh, my. She snapped. So a deputy with the Washington County Sheriff's Department arrived, and he, by the way, is Ilo Grunberg's former son-in-law, which because it's a small town, that's what happened. Which is crazy. So the responding deputy is the woman's dead woman's grandson-in-law, and, you know, it's crazy. So anyway, they charge her with second-degree murder. In that case, the defense attorney here, it's in front of the same judge that J.C. has. Now, Grunberg's defense team brings in two psychiatrists who testify that ILO Grunberg was involuntarily intoxicated by the Halcyon at the time of the killing.

Too high. Too high. Now, the judge on February 8, 1989, dismisses all charges against Ilo Grunberg, rules that the killing was a result of Halcyon and toxin. that rendered her temporarily insane at the time and they let her go. They didn't even get her on like a secondary charge. It's crazy. Yeah. She's like the one person who that shit worked for.

Wow. So this was the first successful involuntary intoxication by prescription drug defense in a murder case in Utah history. And it worked. And it worked. So first move after being freed is filing a 21 million. dollar civil lawsuit against the Upton company. The suit alleges that Halcyon is a defective drug and that Upton failed to warn regulators

on the public of its severe and sometimes fatally adverse reactions. This goes on for two years, which is a lot. Now, in 1991, on the eve of the trial for Upp John and Ilo Grunberg here, which during that trial, Up. John would have been made to produce 8,200 pages of internal. documents about how Halcyon's side effects work and all that to the public. That shit would have been open. Instead, they settle. As part of the settlement, that shit never gets released.

There's confidentiality. And we don't know how much she got? Nope. The 8200 pages were sealed by a federal judge as part of the settlement. And Grunberg's attorney, who argued the documents need to be public, agrees to the seal in exchange for a shitload of money. It's multiple millions of dollars. We got to stop that.

That's insanity. We got to know why that happened, right? I think we should, probably. That's crazy. I mean, I get that it's... I understand it's a company. Legally, and it's a company, and we're talking about trade secrets or buried. They can always say there's trade secrets buried in there and all that.

So I understand that we're fighting with public... With public need and public safety against privacy of a person or company. That's always just going to be litigation in this country like crazy. Those two things really but against each other. Every day, all day. All day. All day, every day. Now, J.C. has a strategy here.

Okay. Okay. And we should say his lawyer, Bayeach, has a strategy. He calls Joseph Charles Gardner, Mr. Wonderful. He's Mr. Wonderful, this guy. Don't worry about it. Paul Orndorff over here. He's a type of guy who'd look after elderly home health care patients.

Even on his days off, he'd go do it. He's just a nice guy. His lawyer said all that changed when a general practitioner prescribed the antidepressant Prozac. A year and a half later, this wonderful, Mr. Wonderful, this nurse and this lovely man and this, you know, he knows about zoology, Mormon missionary. Now he's a first-degree murder charge of Hagenover's head, no way. He said, J.C. Gardner is not, in the classic sense, a murderer. This is what he says. Okay.

Quote, what you become on Prozac is a psychopath. Oh, sir. Yeah. He said that, you know, he started taking Prozac. He was melancholy over his father's death. He met Snow around that time. In the meantime there, he exhibited marked personality changes, became irritables, obsessive and suicidal.

He tried suicide twice. They say also, Gardner, who suffers from recurring throat infections, was taking 13 other medications. Oh my God. Okay. You have no idea what the Prozac did to his brain because he's on 13 other things that could fuck with that too. Yeah, 13 other things that are working in concert.

That's... Exactly. I mean, you strip down Dave Matthews band's performance. The song changes every time you take an instrument away. If you add 13 more instruments, it's a fucking mess. It just sounds like if you gave... Everybody shut up. It sounds like an orchestra comprised of five-year-olds at that point.

That's basically what Dave Method is in a nutshell, five-year-olds, just slime and shit together. Eh, there's worse shit out there. Is there? Yeah, anything country. Everything he does, though, has a million fucking sounds. It's just too many sounds. It's an assault.

You know what, too? I haven't listened to like a lot. I know somebody that played live stuff of Dave Metz. I know somebody that played live stuff of Dave Matthews. It's like, that's not bad. That's why I think. It's not bad live, I think. I don't really like the songs, though.

I'm really into it. I just don't know. I'm never a Dave Matthews guy. There's just too much shit happening. And he doesn't even put words to it. I don't know what those words are. He's got a very good drummer. So, 13 other medications.

That's, but that's absurd. His lawyer, quote, won't say what they were, but is having a forensic pharmacologist researched their interactions. So, and then he never comes back with some, oh, here it is. This made it happen. So we don't know what the fuck happened in there. And we don't know which one of these medications.

Do we know are that prescription or over the counter or anything? We don't know. He won't say. He just said he's on 13 other medications, which makes me go, and you blame that one. That's that particular one. And not the reaction between whatever. When you take, when they prescribe your prozac, do they say make sure you take 13 other things with it? I don't.

Yeah, I don't think they. that. I think there's a pharmacist will tell you, don't take many other things with this. As little as possible. Take this only with food. Don't take this with alcohol. It's not great. Yeah. There's all kinds of things not to take with them. So now the lawyer said that Gardner remembers being at Janice's house, but that he blacked out and can't recall pulling the trigger. He said, this is an amazing quote, an amazing. Janice Fondgren was almost an incidental figure in this. The murder victim

is almost an incidental figure. You know, not a big deal. Wow, but he focused, but he'd focused on her. If you put it in rational terms, there was no motive. It was spontaneous as hell. No, there was a motive. She was filing restraining orders against him,

and she's the one saying, get the fuck away from your ex-wife. She doesn't want to talk to you. And also putting that in the ex- wife's head. So he has lots of motives to kill her. Tons. And even if that's not the case, if I'm sitting on the jury and a lawyer says that to me, I go, wait a minute, he didn't have a motive. This was spontaneous. He's much more dangerous than I thought. Yeah. Well, that's his way of saying the Prozac just put the thought in his head all the way. He kicked him over the edge.

Yeah. Meanwhile, this is something that he's clearly been pissed off about for a while. So, yeah, the deputy county attorney here, the prosecutor said the prosecution does not believe that he is a victim of involuntary intoxication, although if he wants to raise the issue, go for it. He said, that's the ultimate issue the courts will have to decide. Put it this way.

If he asserts a defense that he was not in full possession of his faculties, we'll try to prove otherwise. Okay, this explodes into national news. Prozac is the hottest word going. Prozac becomes the Viagra of the early 90s. Remember in the late 90s?

Every joke's punchline had the word Viagra in it somewhere. This is Prozac is the early 90s version of that. Four hour boner. Yeah, that happened later. Four hour. Four hour. Four hour erection. That was the people used to say all the time.

Yeah. So the March 1991, it comes out huge. There's a 3,000 word profile by a reporter in the Deseret News with the headline, Prozac on trial, involuntary intoxication, question mark. Defense attorney and murder case intends to prove wonderful. drug is guilty. Wow. Okay.

In the same issue by the lawyer's accounts, he said that there are about a dozen active Prozac defense criminal cases pending in Utah, in California, Florida, and New York. Judges in California and Illinois have already agreed to allow Prozac evidence in criminal trials. And some have started letting juries hear side effect testimonies. This is wild. I never even knew that. this was a thing as a defense

or a label for that drug until after Columbine because one of those boys was on it too and they claimed it for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is... It's a bit late. Again, how much planning? What are we talking about here?

You know? Yeah, you've got letters. Come on, dude. They made bombs. It took a long time to do that. Yeah, they had tons of time to figure that out. They drug them into the school. Like, there's so much. So much. You got dressed, bitch.

Yeah. It's it. Eli Lilly had been named in over 50 civil lawsuits by spring of 91, alleging Prozac caused a, quote, out-of-character suicidal or violent actions. So now this is, mainly there's a personal injury lawyer named Leonard Fines or Fins that has 60 individual plaintiffs lined up. He, he's Mr. I got a hammer and I'm looking for some nails here. You know, he's going around looking for people to add to this case. Someone famous jumps in here. The widow of the former, or not really former, I guess he was still doing it, the musician Del Shannon. You know who he is? No. My little runaway, run, run, run, run, run. That's 60s.

Early 60s or whatever. That's him. And his widow is, he apparently died at 55, apparently committed suicide at 55 in February of 90. with Prozac in a system. Okay. Now, back to the Citizens Commission on Human Rights, which is a euphemism for Scientology horseshit, which is really what it should be called.

They start pushing the story everywhere, because that's their agenda. You don't need this. You just come to Scientology. So Eli, Lili, has a full-on PR problem at this point. And, yeah, their subsidiary dista products, quietly puts out a brochure to doctors stating that it is adding, quote, suicidal ideation to the adverse events of the, to your side effects list. And that's a known

side effect now, is suicidal ideation. They never, they just put that in the package as an insert. So they say that this is one doctor here. This is Dr. Fred Reimer, who says he's seen a thousand patients on Prozac and hasn't witnessed the horror stories and thinks the drug is an important drug that helps people. It's fascinating that people that are unwell mentally that are on, you know, mental mood stabilizers are unstable. And then they blame the drug like they weren't fucking whack before that. They were trying so hard to get okay.

Yeah. Perhaps they're too far not okay. Makes no sense. So they also said, and this I think is that this is what it's all about. Quote, Prozac may be overprescribed. That's the problem. A little bit overbred. Everything's overprescribed because people want to give people what they want to shut them up and get them out of their office.

It's just that's human nature. But it works for some people. So when it works, you're going to prescribe it because fucking this might work. Because it worked. Yeah. Absolutely. So Prozac may be overprescribed and doctors may need to monitor users more carefully. The standard 20 milligram dose may be too high for some people.

And also says it shouldn't be combined. with other drugs or alcohol and it says it right on there. And when you do that, all bets are off. Which is, you know, duh. So, smoke weed and then drink, do them separately. Then do them together. They feel much different. It's weight.

You know what I mean? It's just, you combine the two. Now you've got a different thing. But when you're taking something that's a suppressant and you're taking another thing that's a suppressant, you're going to suppress so much. Yeah. And then also maybe two negatives equal the positive. sometimes and that's a problem too.

Maybe that'll make you more aggressive rather than two suppressors. Two suppressions equal one aggression. Who knows? We don't know. This shit isn't meant to be done together. So September 1990, J.C. is admitted to the forensic unit of the hospital here so the doctors can evaluate his competency to stand trial. Yeah. In February 1991, the state's forensic psychiatrist concludes that Gardner is incompetent to stand trial.

Is that right? incompetent. The doctors are then ordered to continue evaluating him to determine when he will be competent and as a part of this they're specifically tasked with evaluating the effects of Prozac on his brain because that's what the defense is

going after. While they're monitoring him, they monitor him both on and off the drug. I'm not curious. So they run a clinical comparison with a medicated JC versus a non-medicated JC. They keep him under observation. They

take notes. His lawyer visits him at the hospital, and he says, wow, and he says that this is one of the better, wow, he says, quote, they found my client funny at the funny farm. That means he's incompetent to stand trial. He is a quote machine, this guy. Well, that would take so long because the drug takes a while to get out of your system to get back to the balance. Yeah.

And then to read drug takes as long or longer. Yeah. To get to that balance. They have whatever he's competent. That's just pushing trial two years down the fucking road. They don't really care about when it happens. They need it to be medically, yeah. So he also says, quote, I can tell the difference from the legibility of his writing and the trembling of his right arm.

He says he can personally tell the difference whether he's on Prozac or not on Prozac. They said, trembling, by the way, is a documented Prozac side effect. Psychomotor agitation. So little tremble in the hand or whatever. He also says that, the lawyer says, that his strategic position here is that, quote, truth is, the longer his client stays at the state hospital, the better. It buys him some time to build a case against Prozac, basically. He also says, quote, in my opinion, anybody facing the death penalty for murder earns the right to depression.

Oh. Weird, weird thing. So he remains in the hospital. he says that the lawyer said doctors believe Gardner is so totally depressed that he cannot assist in his own defense. He says, I agree. He said, if Gardner's depressed, it's because he's facing a possible death penalty. And yeah, that's terrible. Janice's family, the problem of all this, there's people waiting for results here, like you were saying.

He said that they're frustrated with the wheels of justice cranking so slowly. and they're afraid that Janice's murder is going to be forgotten. It's going to get pushed under the rug somehow. So in Utah now, okay, there are, there's a statute here that defines mental illness, the defense of using mental illness. The statute says if you can prove that at the time of the crime, you suffered from a mental illness that prevented you from forming the required mental state for the crime, you have a defense.

Either, yeah, either insanity or diminish mental capacity. Okay. The statute also has a clause that says if you're under the influence of voluntarily consumed alcohol, controlled substances or volatile substances, you're not excused on the basis of mental illness. That's voluntary intoxication. Okay. You can't say. Yeah. Is it controlled substance and something prescription?

That's not prescription to you. That you're not supposed to be taking. That would be voluntarily took a leisure drunk or whatever the fuck. You can't say. You can't say. I didn't mean to strangle my wife. I was real drunk because there. There'd be about half the murders in this country wouldn't be prosecuted.

I mean to strangler. I was on PCP and I thought she was a squirrel. Boy, I mean, I hate squirrels, by the way. Hate them. It was rabid. Trying to steal my nuts. I don't take that shit. You got to strangle those.

I keep a large collection of nuts in my house now and I don't need them taken. Now, the statute, though, does not say what to do with involuntary intoxication. So he's trying to find a loophole here. The legislature, when they wrote it, didn't address. it. They don't address. The doctor told me to take a pill. That's not involuntary. Now, to make it worse, the statute used to be different. Prior to 1983, Utah's mental illness defense statute used what's called the irresistible impulse test. In pre-83, the statute said, if you suffered from a mental disease or defect that caused you to lack substantial capacity to

either appreciate the wrongfulness of your conduct or conform your conduct to the requirements of the law, you have a defense. Okay. Basically, in 83, the Utah legislature took that apart. They repealed the irresistible impulse prong, leaving only the cognitive prong. Did you know what you're doing is wrong? If yes, you're guilty. Doesn't matter how crazy you are, essentially.

And a lot of states did this. In the 70s, they went too far with people getting off on, quote, getting off on mental illness thing. So in the 80s, everybody made laws that said basically, if your head is attached to your body, you did it and fuck you. It doesn't matter how crazy you are. It doesn't matter if you have nine personalities, if you thought you were on another planet, doesn't matter. If you ball the body up in a bed sheet and take it out into the woods, does that prove that you knew the wrongness? You know what I mean? I would say so. Absolutely. But like that, this is mainly like in Georgia, that Chloe Driver case, the young lady who killed her baby and then tried to kill herself.

And she was literally fucking insane. Had no idea. She was on another planet crazy. And the everybody knew it, including the judge, including everybody. But the prosecution, the only way in Georgia for this to be okay is if she's so crazy, she thought the baby was trying to kill her. So that was what it was. It's such a narrow thing.

You have to be so crazy. that you think they're trying to kill her. And there's no way to prove she thought a six-month-old was trying to kill her. So she was automatically guilty, even though everyone in that courtroom knows she's crazy as a fucking loon and doesn't belong in prison, at least right not yet. So anyway, that's what they're doing. So the pretrial theory from Bayock, the lawyer, is my client took Prozac, doctor prescribed, but that means it's involuntary. The code, the Utah code, doesn't address involuntary intoxication. therefore the court should fall back to the pre-1983 standard, which is the same as Colorado's current standard at the time, which includes irresistible impulse.

Under that standard, J.C. lacked the capacity to conform his conduct to the law because of Prozac's side effect. This guy's good. This is why he's got a plane. This is what I mean. You have a plane for a fucking reason. This is clever shit. I mean, as far as legality goes. Not guilty, Your Honor.

No. Yeah. If you're the Fondren. family, you want to fucking murder this guy with a fireplace poker. But if you're, you know, if you're everybody else just in the legal system, it's, it's gamesmanship, you know. So the judge says, I'm holding that involuntary intoxication, even if it leads to temporary mental illness, still falls under the current Utah code.

Meaning, the defense would have to show that J.C. Gardner lacked the mental state to commit the crime under the later statute, not the pre-83 one. So they're fucked essentially is what that does. So this isn't a separate statute. There's no separate statute for involuntary intoxication. The judge is like, I ain't going to make one. So it isn't happening. So essentially, by the way, this judge also was the same judge in the Halcyon defense case.

So I think he doesn't like the publicity he got for that. So he's trying to make sure. That's my, it would be my guess anyway. Leave me the fuck out of it. I'm involved. Fuck. shit. So under this basically, under Utah statute 76-2-305, the question is, could he conform his behavior?

It's did he know what he was doing and did he know it was wrong? This is not good. Because bought a folding shovel, bought rubber gloves, took two pairs, drove to the apartment, came through the window, shot her in the chest, carried her body out, stripped her, probably raped her, took fucking her stuff. dumped it out, went back to the house, drove. He didn't sit in the front lawn covered in blood and go, I feel terrible about what I did. Or place around going, what have I done? What have I done?

You had a beer, man. Yeah, that's, yeah, you had a beer to chill yourself out here. Every, basically, did he know what he was doing? It's obvious he knew what he was doing. So you can't go on that. By the way, 1991, there's a big garden placed in memory of Janus, by the way. the former director of nursing there was killed and they said the memory of Janice will rest peacefully here. She is dearly missed.

So it's a nice garden, I believe, at the center there. And they said that a $500 nursing scholarship will be given locally in her memory to a student who specializes in gerontology as well. So now what can J.C. do here? Well, he can do what's called a conditional plea. Conditional plea is when you plead guilty, but reserve the right to appeal a specific pretrial ruling. So if the appellate court reverses the pretrial ruling in the Supreme Court of Utah says the judge was wrong, then the standard for involuntary intoxication is different, then the conditional plea can be withdrawn and the case can proceed that way. So it's not a final, final end. It's interesting.

So January of 1992, J.C. Gardner enters a conditional plea of guilty to first degree felony murder. In exchange, the state drops the aggravated burglary charge, which that's the death penalty aggravator. Death penalty is off the table. So the plea is conditioned on Gardner's right to appeal the judge's pretrial ruling on the involuntary intoxication standard. Okay.

Sentencing comes around. You, sir, may fuck off five years to life in Utah State Prison, which is standard Utah sentencing, an indeterminate sentence. You go in front of the pardons and parole board every so often and they decide when you get out, but it could be up to life, whatever. Now, right away, he wants to appeal. The lawyer says, quote, that he contends, it was wrong for Utah legislature to eliminate an irresistible impulse clause from the state's murder statute in 83, and he'll make that argument with the higher court. Now, this sucks because the Fondrians were very happy that he was going through going to prison.

They didn't give a shit about the death penalty. They just didn't want to go through the trial. They did not want to see all these pictures of their daughter and, you know, it's horrible a trial for the victims family. And then you hear the whole thing. It's fucking terrible, you know, it's the worst. So he sentenced, he's pled, great, fuck them, is essentially what they're saying. Now, so that's what he's trying to do here.

He says, I won't rest until I get the involuntary intoxication defense based on the belief that it's our belief that Mr. Gardner was under the influence of Prozac, which caused those things. 1994, remember Ilo Grunberg? Yeah. Our Halcyon induced.

Eight shot shooter there. She moved to Las Vegas, and on the anniversary of her mother's death, she hung herself or hanged herself, wherever you want to put it. Yep. Committed suicide. Yep.

One year or like several years later? It's five years later, I think. Wow. But on the day. six years later, on the anniversary of it. The former son-in-law, who was also the cop who found the dead mother, said money is in everything, because she had millions of dollars. Wow. He said, money isn't everything.

They could take care of her financially, but the guilt, even though it was not her fault, I think finally just got to her. Holy. Yeah. She obviously had some mental problems, and that results in that. So, Utah Supreme Court. Now, the defense is arguing that since involuntary intoxication doesn't appear in the statute, the statute doesn't contemplate the defense and therefore the court should adopt the standard, which is more lenient, like we said.

The Utah legislature has not adopted a separate statutory provision dealing with involuntary intoxication. Okay. So they also go through all of the, on his appeal, all of the different cases from Michigan, Indiana, and others addressing these questions. cites people versus collie, a Michigan Court of Appeals decision involving a defendant who killed someone after taking excessive amounts of Halcyon. Again, different case out there. The Michigan court held the defense of involuntary intoxication is part of the defense of insanity when the chemical effects of the drugs or alcohol rendered the defendant temporarily insane. So that's kind of what this judge said before.

Did he know temporarily insane would mean he didn't know the wrongfulness of his actions. So they still say he knew the wrongfulness of his actions. So they still say he knew the wrongfulness of his actions. The judgment is affirmed. Okay. Okay. He's in prison. What do you think he's going to do in prison?

Hang himself. Read the dictionary. Yeah. He does graduate level work in ornithology. What's orinthology? Birds. Fucking birds. He loves animals, honey.

I believe that's birds. Through a correspondence course with Cornell University, too. Good college. It's birds. Now, he had a bachelor's degree in zoology, so that makes sense that he would do that. The Cornell Lab of Ornithology has famous correspondence online course called Bird Biology course, which dates back to the 90s. He does that, and he's an expert on birds now. Fuck.

He earns a master's degree in business information systems from Utah State University, which is interesting, participates in naturopathic study. through an academy program, gets in zero trouble, has zero disciplinary things, nothing. He's the model prisoner when he gets in there. Okay.

August of 2000, he goes before the Utah State Board of Pardons. He's the least dangerous person on earth right now. Right now, it seems like that, right? But fuck, I wouldn't. For Christ's sake. Wouldn't trust his ass still.

Fuck him. Nope. That was a, what he did was calculated as fuck. So bad. So he goes to the Utah Board of Pardons here, and they said that, you know, he's been a model prisoner, all this type of shit, you know, he's serving five years to life, and he's been doing great. He claimed he's under

the influence and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, at the parole hearing, he said that he did not go through the front door like he had originally said. He actually tells the truth about that, because he knows he has to. It says, I came to the back door, and as I leaned against it to knock on it, it simply came open, which we know is a true. That's not true. Nope. As far as the rest is concerned about my recollection, that is true. I went through a chemically induced hell at the Utah State Hospital for a year trying to recover memory and treatment, which did not do so. He says he's been on, has not been on any psychiatric medication since he left the hospital in Provo, and he's much better now. Gardner said the basic things about what happened at that time are true.

There's a lot of other information in there in the report that this is the first time I've ever heard, many of those allegations. So the board member of the parole board said it was interesting that Gardner remembered a detail about going into the apartment but doesn't remember much after that. Regarding that, regarding that, he said, that's the thing that bothers me every day. He's like, me too. I know, right? You think you're stumped.

I'm the one of me. You get to have coffee at home every day. I really got egg on my face here. I mean, I'm really, I don't know what happened. He said that is... Swallows? That's the thing that bothers me every day because this is one of the actions. What I did is something for which there's no way to recompense anybody.

I can't bring her life back. If I could, I certainly would. He said there's nothing he can do to lessen the pain. He said, the fact is it affects them, the Fondren's family, actually far more harshly than it does me. And I realize that. And that is something that is a continuing sorrow for me every day. And will be regardless of... of my situation for the rest of my life.

Janice's family, shockingly, they don't want them out. No? Surprising. Yeah, and I wonder why. I wouldn't either. So they said that Beth, the sister, told the hearing officer, during the past five years, much has happened to the Fondren family, none of which we could share with our sister Janice. Why? Because she's no longer

with us on this earth. And why is that? Because J.C. Gardner senselessly took her life in cold blood for no reason. He decided to snuff out her young life. He purposely, maliciously broke into her apartment to kill her. He should spend the rest of her life, his life in prison because my sister having to live with the sentence, my sister is having to live with the sentence J.C. Gardner gave her death. Right. Okay. Mom, Betty Joe and the younger brother also testified. They talked about the Memorial Garden and all that kind of shit.

2017 here so that goes he's denied parole there 2017 comes up they did say during that that you will be paroled in 2020 that's what we that's what we decided from 2000 is we'll probably parole you in 2020 okay but you still have to have your meetings every once in a while 2017 he says it is parole hearing that his memory of that evening is quote really sketchy So they press him and say, why did you go to the house that day with a gun and gloves? And he said, I do not remember making the decision to bring the gun with me into the house. And they said, what about the gloves? And he said, I can only think that the rubber gloves were a deliberate attempt to obscure my presence while I was there.

No shit. Why else would you wear rubber gloves? Unless you're going to go up somebody's asshole, I don't see what you're wearing them for. I just like to wear them because my hand's sweat and it feels nice. I was going to break in and do her dishes, and they just get, you know what I mean? They get chafy and dry. It's not palm olive. It's not good.

Yeah. He can only, wow, he says, I can only think. Then he says, what I did 27 years ago was a horrendous thing, a tragedy. No way to express his sorrow, the remorse that I feel toward any of those who have been so terribly affected by what happened here. Janice's sister, again, said, I prayed every day. that you will not allow him to get out even earlier than originally planned. Right. Now, they also have mental health findings that since he's been in prison, they found out.

He has borderline personality disorder, which was just recently diagnosed, though, in the last couple of years. Yeah, which could have came on later, you know what I mean? Sure. But they said it maybe not. It's probably a longstanding personality disorder. It's, if you don't know borderline, it's unstable relationships and pulsive behavior, fear of abandonment. Basically, if you're in a relationship with a borderline person and they're trying to start shit and you won't start shit, they will make sure that you will start shit. They'll make sure.

They'll fucking punch you in the face if they have to to get a reaction out of you. They'll cheat on you and make sure that you find out about it. Because they want drama and chaos. They need it. It's not a good person. It's tough, it's nothing against the people, but it's not a good person to be in a relationship with. It's a hard person to be in a relationship with. It's a behavior that's not conducive to relationships.

Absolutely. They also said he's still blaming Prozac for much of what happened, and the board member says she doesn't like that. She's concerned about Gardner making excuses versus taking responsibility for what happens. She also says she's concerned that the report showed little change in his personality compared to his first evaluation 25 years ago. J.C. says, look, here's what I'd like you to do. Don't let me out now. Let me, I need three more years. Let me out in 2020 like we planned. I don't even want to get out now. I'm good for a couple more years, you know, because I'm just concerned about what's right, obviously.

I got work to do in here. I got a lot to do in here. So August of 2020, J.C. is released on parole. Wow. He's let out. Within a month, Janice's mom dies. Oh. Coincidence, who knows, but she dies.

Now, he's paroled, gets a parole officer. He's living in St. George still. What? Yeah, he goes. back there. There's nowhere else to go. So the conditions include report regularly. No firearms, obviously. No contact with the victim's family.

That should be obvious. Standard shit. Get a job. Check in, whatever. He gets a job. In October of 2022, now, this is two years later. A 54-year-old woman is arrested by St. George police on multiple felony counts of theft,

specifically stealing guns and knives. Now, we don't know who she stole them from, We're not, that's pretty regardless. It doesn't matter. It's academic at this point. It doesn't matter at all. But she had stolen guns that got recovered and she got arrested. When the police asked her, what did you do with the rest of the guns you stole that we didn't recover?

She said she, quote, sold the guns to J.C. Gardner. Oh, my God. Guess who's not supposed to have guns? That's right. So that's interesting. She could have said anything. I sold them to some, I don't know who the hell. he was. She said J.C. Gardner. So, they're going to go talk to him. Did you buy guns from this woman?

He said, of course not. I didn't buy anything from her. That's crazy. And then he says that he, then he goes, but she did ask me to store the guns at my residence for just a couple days. And then they got moved right out of my house, though. You know, he said, I never purchased them. I was just, I was just holding them for. I mean, if someone said, hey, hold this for a second. You wouldn't make sure you were allowed to first. You just hold it. That's what people do. It's easy. Here, hold my sandwich.

You go, sure. So does they still have them? Well, then they do, they find phone records, because now it's 2020 fucking two. So they find this, they go through his messages, and on his parole, they don't even need a warrant. They can just look at his phone if they feel like it. The messages on his phone show him sending the woman messages inquiring about purchasing guns, making offers, negotiating prices. Would you do this on fucking Facebook marketplace? or something.

Texting her back and forth or, you know, social media or whatever, maybe Facebook marketplace. So, yeah, he sent all these texts. So he gets charged in the same court

that handled his murder with four counts of being a restricted person in possession of a weapon. Idiot. Then they search his home and find a 9mm millimeter handgun.

His favorite. His favorite. Same caliber. Interesting. There, they have, he has a it's a cheap one. A, what is it?

S-C-C-Y, Sky. That's how you pronounced apparently. I guess it's about a $200 subcompact 9mm, small. Shitty cheap street gun, basically. He has thousands of bullets. He's not allowed to have any bullets. He has thousands of bullets. Thousands of different calibers, three different calibers.

Then, through more investigation, text messages and everything. They find that he previously possessed other firearms, including an AR-15. Nice. Murder, parole. You can't have none of this. So the thing is, the 9mm is from Florida.

It's manufactured and sold in Florida. Somebody had brought it into Utah from out of state, which means the federal government is now involved in this investigation. So they work, this, the law requires that the firearm have at some point, moved in interstate commerce, the minimum nexus is nothing, basically. Every firearm in America is made in one state and sold it another, so it's just basically if it's illegal. So the U.S. District Attorney's Office of Utah picks it up.

2023, he pleads guilty to one count of felon in possession of a firearm and ammunition. You, sir, may fuck off 102 months in federal prison. Eight and a half years. Yeah, yeah. plus three years of supervised release after that. How old is he now? Well, when he gets out, he's 65 when they sentence him there. So he's going to be like 74 years old, 73 years old when he gets out, which is rough.

God, damn. So we don't know. Now, the Prozac question keeps going on, too, basically. In 2004, here, the FDA issued a warning on Prozac and all SSRIs for increased suicidal ideations in adults and adults. young adults and adolescence in 2007 and expanded the warning, but we all know what it does. It's fine. It's a reason I don't take those things. It's tough.

Janice is buried at the Berkeley Memorial Gardens in Monks Corner, Berkeley County, South Carolina. So they did bring her home anyway. That's nice. The family at least was able to bring their daughter home to be buried at home and not have to go to fucking Utah to visit her corpse. So there you go, everybody. St. George, Utah.

And this is just, this was a wild kind of famous precedent setting case. So we kind of had to do this case. It's a real weird case and just a weird. This guy is just a, I mean, think about what he is. He's a stalker. Yeah. And I think that's who he is. I mean, you know, Prozac doesn't make you a stalker, does it?

But when you're 30, that's, there's a lot of different things that go into the psychology of a 30-year-old man that feels inferior. You know what I mean? Absolutely. You're not ready for the world if you haven't been through some things by then. If I could just hurt this lady who's in my way, then everything will be fine. Because she was sending me love letters before. Now there's Janice is in her ear. Like, give me a break, dude.

Grow up. So anyway, there you go. There is Utah. Hope you enjoyed that. If you did, get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. It helps a ton. Give us a thumbs up on Netflix.

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You get them all, everybody. This week, which you're going to get. For crime and sports, we're going to do theme park disasters. It's back again because we keep getting popular demand on this. Hey, where's that's been a few months? months. What's up with theme park disasters? People losing legs still. Oh, they're all over the place. Then for small town murder, listeners choice, everybody, your choice, either the crash and the story surrounding the crash documentary, the McKenzie Shirilla car act, not accident, murder with the car.

Or Corey Richens part three, which is so much more information. She's a bigger liar than we thought. It's amazing. Her kids statements come in now, which contradicts everything she said. And you get to see exactly what a more calculated lunatic she is. It's insane stuff and get to hear about the sentencing. So one or the other, it's on Patreon, the poll. Vote now. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of that. And you get not only that, all the shows we put out. Crime and Sports, your stupid opinion, Smalltown Murder, add free with your Patreon. On top of that, you get a shout out, which happens right goddamn now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the best goddamn people in the world who would never, ever, ever, murder us just for being

nice people and then blame it on something innocuous. Jimmy, hit me with him right fucking now. Firstly, thanks to everybody that came out to Boston, Detroit and Buffalo, especially Emily, who makes those, she refurbishes the... Yes, oh, she's great with my little ponies. We had such a nice

time talking to her and her wonderful dad outside too. Sweet people and wasn't bothering us at all. We were very curious about that pony. She can talk to us about those ponies all day long and we'll listen. She's a good kid. Thank you. Executive Produce this week are Penny Boyce, Tracy Pellets, maybe Potes, I don't know, happy birthday.

Happy birthday. It's a birthday. Elena Zamil. Elena Zemmel. She's terrific. She was in Buffalo, I believe. Liz Vasquez, Lisa Machowski, Ashley Williams, happy birthday, Ashley. Happy birthday. Lisa Wharton. Gary Howard is in Kenwood, Michigan. He missed that show, but he's up there. Damn, Gary. Sorry you missed you, buddy. Happy hours in Nogadoches, Texas. Oh, boy.

I don't think that's home. I think he's on the road. That's tough. Other producers this week, Matt Stuter. He found $5 at a taco stand. Didn't know who to give it to, so he gave it to us. Well, thank you very much. We'll take your taco money.

We appreciate that. Peyton Meadows, Scott Rashard, or maybe Richard. Dina Snyder, in life with an autistic child. Janice Hill, DeBrovsco. What is this? Debrovs. Oh, DeBrovsko, and Stephanie, the real estate broker. Thank you so much, you guys.

Thank you. Parker Adelson, Hannah Hockenberry, Vanessa Boundell, Bundel, probably, Bundle. Bundle. Crystal Shamsie, Norma with no last name. James Barnhart, Crystal with no last name. Catherine Ballard, or Bollard, Bollard, Arie Nash. Ari, I think it's Airy, I don't know, PJ Hatmaker, Elena Sergi, Michael Elliott, Hayes, what is this, Haley Grace, Glace, what is this, Glace, what, Glacier, perhaps.

Millie Lemonade, Lemonade, Lemonade. Lemonade. Lemonade. Brian Dyn would no last name. Brandon. Wendy Brown. Judith Voight. Eric Chalito.

Scott Gamster. Gamester. Tammy Cunningham. Richie's sister. Tony Delea. Delea. Justin would no last name. Reagan.

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Jim class was rough on him in seventh grade. Peter Hans? No. That's a tough one. Can't be that. John. You had to drop out of school if you went in New York. They were relentless.

He'd been tough. I'm sorry. He might have a GED. We don't know. I wouldn't. I would. Run from school. It's worth it.

Jeremy Springer, Jerry's Kid, Heather Fitzpatrick, Ellen Hulbilt, Alexis Sarber, Kinsey would no last name, Sonja would no last name, Sonja perhaps. Paula Don Stevens, Julie Strand, Valerie Hardin, Stephen Kay, Sarah Leahy, Dave Seagraves, Brian Lurite, Lorette, Lorette. Brian, it's never going to happen. We're trying our best here, right. Maureen Donovan, Courtney Andrade, Jess Rice, Adriana Siski, Alessandra, Alessandra, Alexandra Grant, Will would know the last name, Melissa Taylor, Nick Ardweeney, Vanessa Evans, Lindsay Craig, Cortecke. What is it, Cortin? It's Courtney. God damn it, Courtney. Cortecne. Don't do this to me. Randy Miller, Dave and Amanda, Yarlote, Yarlow, Jessica Dylan, Peggy Perkins, Allison with no last name, me, Kim Ashdown, Riley B, the lead dispensary, or the lead dispensary, Jody Showmaker.

It's not Shoemaker, it's Showmaker. Maureen Maderos, that's Españal, Shemiel, Camille, Aloha, Camille with Z-8. That's not right. That's Shemiel, right? Like the Shem. What's the dress shit? Is that Shemiel? Oh, Chaffan.

Oh. Chaffan is C.H. Isn't it? I don't fucking know. I'm making shit up now. Haley, McCula, Sammy Navar, Nava, perhaps.

Ava Mangiello. Imagine, Manginiello. What is that? There you go. Close enough. Rose Conklin, Clayton Love Lady, Chris would no last name, Dan Cops, Becca would know last name, Jericho Perkins, Go 24, KKR, Nikos Lynch, Jennifer Smith, Jenna Plating, Paige Harmon, Chase

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