Small Town Murder - Poison Pudding Problems - Columbus, Indiana

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

This week, in Columbus, Indiana, after the suspicious death of a man, in his estranged wife's backyard, detectives assume that it's just a sad tragedy. But when people, including his wife's children, start coming forward with information, a large investigation is put into motion. This uncovers motives for murder, some very strong missing drugs, and a probable attempt on another man's life, using a possibly poison Thanksgiving dinner!!   Along the way, we find out that Chuck Taylor is more than just a name on a shoe, that you should never leave insanely strong liquid morphine out in the open, and that you shouldn't go shopping, before you call 911!!   New episodes, every Wednesday & Friday nights!! Check us out on VIDEO Wednesday and Friday evenings on Netflix! www.netflix.com/smalltownmurder Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions!   Follow us on... instagram.com/smalltownmurder facebook.com/smalltownpod   Also, check out James & Jimmie's other shows, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts!!

This week, in Columbus, Indiana, after the suspicious death of a man and his estranged wife's backyard, detectives assume that it's just a sad tragedy. But when people start coming forward with information, they must decide whether he did it to himself or if a certain dessert item could be the culprit. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo.

I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wiseman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another absolutely wild edition of Smalltown Murder. As you know, we had a serial killer for the regular episode last week. We've had a lot of crazy stuff here, and this is no different. So buckle up because it's going to be nuts here. Before we get into this, definitely head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for everything, all the live shows that are out there.

First of all, the next live show with tickets available. May 2nd in Denver. Still some seats for that. They're going so fast. They're going fast. And then Royal Oak, Michigan, too. I think there's a few left for that one as well on May 30th. And then after the summer, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Terry Town, and Boston.

Oh, boy. And then our funerals in early December. So that'll be a nice thing. You can all come to that. You can all mourn us. So that's how that's going to work. Definitely do that. Shut up and give me murder.com.

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So do that. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything, everything we put out immediately. And that is including as soon as you subscribe, you're going to get hundreds, over 300 back bonus episodes,

whole big catalog of those to binge. And then new ones every other week. One crime in sports. It's one small town murder, and how much of that do they get? All of it. Every damn drop of it, that's right. This week is no different. Patreon this week for crime and sports.

We're going to talk about the, I believe it's the Ecclesia Athletic Association, which was a program in California for inner city kids to get them off the streets and get them into sports. And what do you think happened there? It turned into a big weird cult thing and it's creepy. And then for small town murder, it is Corey Richens Part 2. We've had people can't wait for that. We are excited. That's the woman who poisoned her husband and then wrote a grief book for her children about it, which is insanity. We'll get to all that and more. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show as well. And then you get everything we put out.

Crime in sports, your stupid opinions, and small town murder all add free with your Patreon as well. You can't beat it, everybody. that said, disclaimer time. Here we go. Hey, this is a comedy show, everybody. We are comedians. Unfortunately, people are going to die here. And whether we do a show about them or not, they're still dead. That's the thing.

Still dead. Still dead and we still didn't kill them. So don't be mad at us for that is what we're saying here. We are going to make jokes and people are going to die and you go, well, how does that work? Well, we follow a very simple rule that I think helps a lot. And that's, we never make fun of the victim or the victim's family. Why, James? Because we're assholes.

But we're not scumbags. See how that works? See, that's it. I think everything falls under those parameters. Things happen. You know, there's crazy stories and crazy stuff going on behind, and that's where the jokes all come from. We'll make fun of a small town, because who cares?

Everybody's from a small town to make fun of it. It doesn't matter. We'll make fun of murderers. We'll make fun of a police force that screws everything up and let somebody kill a bunch like they did in the last episode. and so that's what we do here. So, yeah, that sounds good to you. You're going to hear a crazy story.

If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, this might not be the place for you, or it might be. That's the thing. You never know. I say, give it a shot. No complaining later. What do you say? Everybody, that's the important part.

So I think it's time, everybody, to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs. There we go. Here, arms to the sky, and let's all shout. Shut up. And give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay.

Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah. All right. Let's do this. We are going to Indiana this week. Columbus, Indiana. Can't fuck that up. There's a Columbus everywhere.

Oh, I'm sure there's some pronunciation that's wrong. Columbus. Ooh, the Louisiana people, you guys are brutal about these. Columbus. Listen, Louisiana, there is not a, you barely speak English down there. First of all, so how dare you say anything about pronunciations? Whatever you're saying, you're saying it wrong. I'll just say that.

We'll tell you what the English translation of it is for you. Or the French. Fuck you. Yeah, or say it in French. I don't know. Then I wouldn't know what you're talking about. But this is in South Central Indiana. About 50 minutes to Indianapolis, about an hour in 10 to Louisville in the other direction.

So to mediocre cities within an hour's drive of you. And then about an hour and four. 45 to Williamsburg, Indiana. That's our last Indiana episode, episode 654, a death in the family, which you'll want to go back and listen to because it was crazy. Now, this is in Bartholomew County, Bartholomew. Area codes, 812 and 930. It's got two area codes because it's also got a nickname and a motto. So they're living it up here. The motto here, unexpected, unforgettable.

Oh. Yeah. It's like a... It's like a Calvin Klein ad from the 80s. Like two like people dressed in flowy white clothes with wind blow and making out and they say unexpected, unforgettable. And Justin D. Deeper pointing down and going, my pee-bees in there. Yeah.

Do you see that Kate McKinnon sketch? Ah, you probably didn't. No. It's one of the best things around life was done in the last 10 years. It's amazing. That's that there's like two things. Yeah. That's what I mean.

Kate McKinnon and the TK. I gave up on SNL a long time ago. She's incredible. Oh, she's great. Yeah, she's great. But, yeah, they didn't have anything funny going on for a while. And it's not even their fault. It's just that how do you collect?

It's all been done. Well, it's all been done by Saturday. That's the problem. There's nothing. No more commentary that needs to be said. It's been memeified all week. Oh, God. Yeah, yeah.

So, nickname of this town, Athens of the Prairie. Some balls on these people. Athens, Georgia or Greece? Athens, like, you know, where all the stuff comes from. Yeah. Diplomacy and shit. Yeah. Of the prairie.

Yeah. Okay. A little bit of history here. The land developed as Columbus was bought by General John Tipton and a guy named Luke Bonesteel. Bone steel. Bone steel. He has, talk about, I've never seen anyone leave such a lucrative country music

career on the table as Luke Bonesteel. because I mean, honestly, whatever you did, are you sure he did? He wasn't a country music star, so no. Luke Bonesteel. He might have been. No, not in 1820, unfortunately, for him. He built, Tipton built a log cabin on Mount Tipton,

a small hill overlooking the White River. And the first, the town was first known as Tiptona. Tipton with an A, Tiptona, named in honor of Tipton. They changed the town's name because it was stupid to Columbus. Because it sucks. Because it was real dumb. And people were making fun of them on March 20th, 1821 of all the other towns around were mocking them. Wouldn't it last a year?

How long did it last? Yeah, about a year, not long. People believe that Tipton was upset by the name change, but we're not sure about that. But either way, he founded the town and built the first everything and then left after they changed the name. So I think he was pissed off about it. I don't think they liked him very much here. That's funny. In 1821, basically, there was three or four log cabins developed around to the ferry landing,

and then they added a store in 1821. So that's what there was. Well, when you got a good, strong name like Columbus, you got to have a store out here. Like Tiptona. Tiptona didn't have a store. No store in Tiptona. And later that year, the county was organized. And Columbus was incorporated as a town in 1864 and then as a city in 1921.

Very much like Columbus. Already established and throws his name on it. It throws his name on everything. Hey, there's people already here. I found this. It's Columbus. Reviews of this town since, you know, we've never been here. And hopefully won't be any time soon.

We have other people's opinions. This place has 3.9 stars out of 174 reviews. on niche, so well reviewed. Here's five stars. Columbus is a city I would visit if I didn't already live here. Oh, okay. Wrap your brain around that. Unravel that one.

Just say that. Columbus is a city I would visit if I didn't already live here, is the dumbest sentence ever uttered. With architecture and plenty of activities for weekend stays, it combines small town charm and big city diversity in one. I would, however, like to see more. unique activity shops for dates. Activity shops for dates.

They mean like escape rooms. Escape rooms and fucking axe throwing and whatever douchebags do on dates. Yeah. Have you seen those? They do those now. Oh, God. Cookie dates, James. Cookie date.

Whatever happened to having a couple of glasses of wine and seeing where this thing goes. What are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing to seeing what their genitals taste like? What are we doing? This is a problem. Be adults. Jesus Christ.

I don't want to hear people blaming anything else. Oh, there's too much birth control. So there's some populations out. I don't hear any of that shit. This is the problem. When you go on your first date to paint a fucking cookie, you're laying down no sexual undertone to that whatsoever. None.

Nothing's going to happen. The exact opposite, actually. The exact opposite. Of course. Yeah, you're neutering the relationship for the rest of it right there. It's just this is our relationship. Ridiculous. Just like two ants.

that get together to make cookies. That's who we are. So, yeah, I would like to see that, as well as diversity in dining. I guess, you know, more than just the Taco Bell, maybe a real Mexican joint. Here's five stars. Columbus has so many nice people.

It has a small hometown feel. There's plenty to do, and it is beautiful. Yeah. And if you lived here, you'd already be home. You'd already be home. Remember that? That's what the sign says. Yeah.

Here is three stars. I love the architecture and beauty within Columbus, but drugs have become such an epidemic that I feel it's losing its beauty. Yeah, it's every town. Yeah. Oh, not drugs. Really? Very unique that you have drug addicts there.

Here's two stars. This is not a town that promotes young adult growth. I don't know if you have to promote it. They're growing no matter what. They're going to grow. You can't stop them. It's just nature, babe. It's just nature.

And honestly, it is, and honestly is not very popular amongst well-mannered individuals. Oh, it's only the surly folks. So, yeah, this town is not popular amongst well-mannered individuals, apparently. What's the population? Did you say that yet? Not yet. No, it's in a minute. We'll get to that in about 15, 20, or about a minute.

Yeah. Two stars. Lots of people get kicked out of their homes because they stop paying rent. Well, that's what happens. Yeah. Pause and effect. Because it seems most of them do drugs all, do drugs because of all the traffic in the houses and the houses stay vacant for long periods of time. You just describe drugs.

That's drugs. Yeah. One star, the nightlife here is awful. Really? In Columbus, Indiana, I'd expect it to be. I just found out about it. Yeah. I haven't been yet.

There's nothing for adults to do except get into trouble. Oh. There are only a few decent bars here. and I would not even say that they were decent. I would rather drive 45 minutes north and go to Indianapolis than stay here in town. Yeah, that's what you do. Yeah, that's your 45 minutes. But I guess if you want to drink or something, that's not fun.

Then you have to Uber. It's an expensive Uber. You get a hotel. Again, that's what you do when you don't live in a city. Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, but people, a lot of times, they don't have the money to go to a city and go to get a hotel just to get drunk for the night. You can drink at home, I guess. But, yeah, that's what I mean.

Just off a handle and shut up. I get what you're complaining about, but you know what you can do not live in a small town. Right. That's the solution to that. I would rather drive 45 minutes north and go to Indianapolis. Also, with the restaurant, I would rather drive 30 minutes to Greenwood and eat up there. The variety is much greater than here. So same complaints.

Not enough restaurants. Yeah. Stupid date options. Okay. Population here, 50,718. Wow. This has gone up a lot. In 2000, they had 39,000 people.

So it's... No nightlife with 50,000 people? 50,000 people. You'd think there would be some nightlife. I think there's a problem here. Yeah. I think it's Indiana is the problem here. Let's see.

Women in this town, 49.3%, 50.7% women are men. So more men than women in a big town. That's not great for the guys there. Median age here, 35.7. It's a little lower than the national average because there is a college here as well. Indiana University, Columbus. Oh, is that right? Yeah, so you would imagine there would be bars at least if there's colleges.

That makes no sense. Family in this town. Although, James, when it's a town like that and you go to a bar in a town that's most, you, it's the fucking worst to go to a college bar. I live in for a kipsi. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I tried to go up here to the derby on Halloween. Not a chance. No, go there.

Act with college kids. I'm going to. Hacked with them. Yep. See, yeah. Yeah, they're the worst. And these, they're uppity little shits too. Oh, James, they're way better cars than I have.

Indiana University, Columbus, they might be a little more down earth. These vaster kids are all like, you know, my dad was in a sitcom. Well, fuck you, you know. It's all those, that shit. They're driving $80,000 lifted trucks. These kids, I feel like drive Kia's. For sure. These are key, this is a Kia University here.

53.5% married despite the young population of college kids. So the rest of it is very kind of suburban. family, all that kind of shit. 17.7% are single with children. So that's a little higher than the national average. Race in this town, in this town, 79% white, 2.5% black, 10.4% Asian. Must be a decent college. No kidding.

And 5.7% Hispanic here. 49.5% of the people here are religious, so that's just about the national average. And it is a hodgepodge. There is nothing real. Lutheran has the most. Wow. And that's 9%. So it's a real hodgepodge. 17% other Christian faith.

So don't know what that is, but that takes the day. Low unemployment rate here. Median household income, a little bit higher than the national average. 72,380 bucks. So not terrible. Dang. Especially for a college town. Usually they're pretty low.

Right. You know, just to take into account the college kids on average. Cost of living here, 100 is regular. average. Here it's 83. So a little bit low. And the housing is even lower. The housing, $230,100 is the median home cost. Kind of a great place to be if you just want to be. Not bad. Being in bed by seven. That's the thing. Yeah. If you're just real boring and you like to, you know, you like to sit around and it sounds awesome. It sounds great. And if you do like to sit around and if this sounds perfect for you, you're in luck. We have for you the Columbus, Indiana,

a real estate report. Average two-bedroom rental here goes for $1,070,000, which is below the national average. Not bad for a college town. House number one, two-bedroom, one bath, 840 square feet. It's a little house. Built in 1900. Kind of a cool. That's kind of cool.

The problem is it's like four feet from the tiny, cool little old house next to it. That's the other. It looks like you could reach out a window and touch the siding on the side. the other house. And somebody from sugar. Yeah, that's, that's a little, yeah, you could be like Godfather too and hand veto the, hand veto the tablecloth full of guns and say, here, hold on to that. That's what's going on here. One hundred ten thousand bucks for this. I mean, it's in fine shape and all, but that's, that's expensive for a little tiny house. No. Here is a three-bedroom, two-bath, 2528 square foot. So two-story, you can stick your family in. And, you know, that's expensive. You

in there. Built in 1948. Again, not a big lot, pretty small lot. But nicely done on the inside, fireplaces, hardwood floors. Decent house. Just had a $15,000 price cut. Good news, everybody. $220,000 for that bad boy. Oh. 2300 square feet, not bad. And the next house is, it's a gigantic log cabin. It looks like a resort, like a ski lodge. It's a big one. Three bedroom, four bath, bowl for each and every beehole. Sure. 5,580 square feet. On 220 acres.

Oh. It is just the woods. It's awesome. And it sits like... And you can't even like see it. It like sits like up on a hill like behind a bunch of trees. It's like a ski lodge. It's cool as shit.

Amazing. You're going to pay for it though. $4,4,490,000 for that. I mean, that's fine. I mean, you got to have five million dollars. Yeah. unload some of the land and make it more affordable? I don't know.

That seems like a decent deal. Yeah. I don't know what this land is worth without the house and vice versa type of thing. I'm not sure. Things to do here. Okay. We have Chuck Taylor Day. What?

That Chuck Taylor. Yeah. Really? The inaugural Chuck Taylor Day was held in June of 2025, celebrating the local basketball legend and creator of, of course, the Chuck Taylor converse there. and they're attempting to get a Guinness World record for the most Chuck Taylor's in one place, people wearing the sneakers. Shoes, yeah. Yeah, most people wearing them.

I mean, I think that's Coles, but I could be able to. Yeah, probably. They also have live music that they don't feel necessary to even tell you about. Oh, no, we have those. Then there's also a unveiling of a giant 10-foot fiberglass sneaker. not of Chuck Taylor the guy the sneaker a giant fiberglass one

imagine that that is amazing imagine when there's a in 60 years there's a Jimmy and James Day and they just unveil a 20 foot microphone just a big

big dick of a microphone sitting there sure why not that's a that's perfect just a you sir may fuck off shirt that's a big a 20 foot

fiberglass one. By the way, somebody got that on their middle finger I saw tattooed. I was like, wow, that is pretty damn badass, awesome.

That is fucking cool, I guess. It's a choice to make. It's a choice. It's a strong choice. But I mean, it's on your middle finger, so it's making a statement. It's the right one.

Live music from the born mountaineer and the revelators two separate bands. Revelators. Okay. And there's also food trucks. There's also the

Ethnic Expo that will be there. That's all the music? That's all the music you're getting for Chuck Taylor. Yeah. For Chuck Taylor Day. The ethnic expo is the one everybody talks about because they have like good food. It's their own little like World's Fair, it seems like, where they have good food from everywhere. Very interesting group of musicians here.

You have the Mariachi Sol Gialis Sanse. You got that. Then you have the Southern Indiana Tyco. DJ Smooth G will be there. Oh, boy. And then closing it out, Bruce Humphreys. Everybody knows about all Bruce Humphreys. So, uh, morning, DJ.

Yeah, Bruce Humphreys here. Yeah. Giving you your top ten at ten this morning. Bruce Humphreys, 975. Bruce Humphreys, 975. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. They all sound like.

Traffic and weather. Traffic and weather. Crime rate in this town. Uh-huh. This is wild. Property crime. usually a little higher in a college town, but this is obscene here,

almost double the national average. God damn. There's a lot. And then violent crime, murder rape robbery, and of course assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime. That's about half the average.

So, okay. That seems like just a lot of college bullshit goes on here. Yeah. That said, let's talk about some murder. What do you say?

Here we go. All right, here. Let's talk about a man first off here. Let's talk about a dude. Alan Duval here. A-L-A-N. There's a million ways to spell Alan. And then Duval, also, D-U-V-A-L.

That could be one D, D, one-L, one, two L's, you never know. He's born November 6th, 1945, okay? So, you know, kind of post-war, just post-war baby boom. His dad got home and got a plowing. You betcha. He's second, he still had his, he still had the top of his Navy uniform on in that dumb fucking hat. He just took those white pants off and went right to work. The photographer stopped taking pictures when he dipped and kissed her.

Well, when he lifted her skirt off, the photographer was like, I better turn this way. This is going to be ill. This is going to be salacious. They'll never run this on the front page. So he's born in Indiana. His parents are Joe Duval and Mary Robbins. Alan enters the Navy when he's a young man.

Oh. So follows there. I think in the late 50s? Well, you get 60s, huh? Yeah, this would be like, man, 19663, something like that. Terrible timing for Vietnam, by the way. Couldn't be worse. Yeah.

To join the military in 1963 or four. Not great. Is that a lot of Navy involvement there? Fuck, yeah. Yeah, tons of, there's a lot of everybody involved. I mean, the Army was your main. You're sitting on the front lines, whatever. But the Navy, they were over there.

Shit. They were sure as hell sitting over there, you know, doing all that shit. Not a lot of fire coming to them, but. Not too much. Unless you're in a fucking helicopter. I guess, but... Yeah, or one of the poor bastards when they, you know,

did the whole bullshit thing of blowing up the ship for... Oh, yeah. Yeah, one of those poor bastards. So, one of his friends said, after he got out of the Navy, he worked on the oil field, I think, out in Oklahoma or somewhere out west.

He's choosing some tough gigs, man. He just goes west toward the oil fields. That's where he's going. Go until it turns brown. Stop there and pull out a drug. Go until everything looks dead and then just start attempting. So he worked for years as a jewelry salesman also at a Columbus jewelry store in Columbus, Indiana. After that, after it went out of business, then he never really got, he never really had a steady gig from then on out of like, really.

Didn't work at one place for 10 years or anything like that. After the jewelry store, he went from job to job. He did a lot of maintenance. He did like landscaping and maintenance for local hotels. It's a tough gig too. Yeah, he lived at a hotel also where he got free room and board for being the maintenance man. So that's what he does. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a much better way to feed your dog with Ollie.

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Now, this, he, in spite of this, despite his, you know, seeming lack of steady and really substantial income. Yeah. He apparently really likes fancy things, everybody says. He likes nice things. Who the fuck doesn't? Well, some people don't care. Some people don't like fancy things. Yeah, I guess that's true, too.

Some people, if you get him a Rolex, they'd rather have a Casio. It's just the way they are. But he's got a real pension for it. He's got it. Yeah. He wants it. likes a good car. He likes to wear a little jewelry here and there. Oh, by the way, not even Italian, by the way, from before. Yeah, weird. He, uh, strange, right? What's his excuse?

You guys aren't even privy to this. God damn it. So he, uh, he needed, yeah, that's a, that was before we even started this shit. Yeah, it was. Yeah, that was before. It's a long story. That's a long story, guys. But, uh, yeah. Anyway, he needed three jobs to keep up with shit sometimes. To keep up with his spending habits. Hey, if you want to have fancy shit and you're willing to work three jobs and make enough money to get it, good for you. You can work five jobs. If you don't mind working five jobs, so you can get a nice watch or a necklace or a nice car or whatever the fuck.

He's married for a while. He has two sons from his first marriage. And he lived with his wife in Kentucky and ran his own business. for a while as well. And that didn't work out. And he ends up back in Indiana after they get divorced. And like I said, he has two sons. Now, people love the guy.

He's described by a lot of people as the life of the party and just a real fun guy to be around. His cousin described him as, quote, just a wonderful man. Wonderful. They said he was life of the party, but not obnoxious at all. just actually making people feel comfortable all the time, very socially apt and that sort of shit. People who, they said he'd also like, you know, he was very boisterous. Yeah. But not obnoxious.

Yeah. And there's a line there. There's a very thin line where that treads into obnoxiousness. Oh, yeah, big time. And he doesn't apparently, he stays on the right side of that line. People said that, you know, if you were sad, he'd make you laugh. He'd always be smiling. His one cousin said he was just like an angel, just the sweet, sweet man that he was.

He was always making you laugh. He'd get out on the dance floor with you at the movies and just dance. What movies have dance floors? Huh. I've seen like tables where they bring food in and shit, but. Well, maybe they mean like drive-in? Is there a dance thing there? I can't think of another place where there's a movie.

That's about as good a thing as I can't think anything better. Yeah, maybe the drive. I don't imagine whatever their AMC is. Yeah. Yeah, he'd get you out on the dance floor with you, or he'd get out on the dance floor with you at the movies and just dance around. Take that for whatever it is. I don't know what that means.

But apparently it's fun. That's a translation here. It's a good time. And, you know, he was just always saying something funny. As he gets older even into like the early 2000s, So, you know, he's in his 50s, pushing 60. He's very active. Everybody said he really likes his cars.

He likes hanging out with his family. He plays a lot of weekend pickup basketball games. Is that right? Oh, yeah. And it's 50s. And it's 50s. So, yeah, oh, God, I hated those guys. Hated playing against those guys.

They're the sweatiest men. Yeah. Their shirts are soaked. Yeah. Either that or they take their shirt off and you had to have your forearm into their sweaty back hair. Those are the options. Those guys were brutal. I'm not saying that's him, but...

Their body's so slippery. It's slippery, and it's heavy in a weird way. As a teenager, I hated that when the older guys were playing. And they always want to lean their shoulders into you, like Shaquille O'Neal. It's like, bro. It's to put their sweat on you. They know you're going to lean back because, oh, God, you're not going to let that touch your face. We're not getting paid, man.

No. Oh, horrible, especially in Arizona. Horrifying. I don't want you on me. Oh, God damn. So, yeah, he liked to pick up games of basketball. His one cousin said, that's all he'd talk about. He loved playing basketball.

His stepbrother said he was one of the best guys you'd ever meet. He also said he never touched drugs, but he does like to drink. That he likes, as we'll talk about. He enjoyed cars as well as his other passion. He likes cars, particularly loves old Corvettes. Really? As a guy who was born in 1945, that makes sense. Because, I mean, when those corvettes came out, they were...

Fifties Corvettes were crazy. Shit. There was, I mean, it was like an experiment, that car. No other car looked like that. No. And they still don't. You got like the 63 with the split window as cool as fuck, and they're cool car. So, I mean, through their evolution, no car looked like them at all.

No. Even the Camero, when it had the slant nose, it still weighed the fuck off. Yeah. Didn't look like that. No, totally different. And Dodge never had an answer. answer. Ford never had an answer. Foreign cars never had an answer until now. Now Corvettes are competing with every supercar on the planet. That's what they are now. It was always like a,

like a, you know, like a bullet until it, that's what it looked like. And then in the late 70s, they put like a four cylinder in it for Christ's sake, and that didn't work out well. And then in the 80s, you got those terrible, those terrible fucking square ones from the 80s that are just awful. That's, you know, a guy who, like, a guy who doesn't pay his alimony drives one of those. You know what I mean? That's... I think that's exactly what Sam Kinnisand died in was an 80s Corvette.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's... You know you're going to die in it when you get it. It's one of those. It's a bad car. So, Alan loved his family. People said too loved hanging out with his family. Here, one of his relatives said he'd just pop in and we'd say, we're going

to plant a garden today and he'd just jump in and help. Yeah. Yeah, that's what he's into. He's into whatever. He also likes, he likes to drink. Okay. Everybody knows he drinks and he wouldn't tell you otherwise. He's not going to say he's a teetotaler by any stretch.

He likes to drink. He is the type of guy that people say that you never really see him drunk, but he always has a beer in his hand. Yeah. I'm going to call it right now. He's a coozy man. He's a coozy man. coozy man. Unless

it's a mixed drink. But yeah, I'll bet he does have a coozy. Oh, he's a beer in his It's always beers. Always beers. He's a beer guy. I mean, he'll drink once in a while. There's shit if other people are drinking it, but you see him? He's got a beer. That's a coozy guy. There's a beer in his, or a coozy in his glove box. Yeah, because we talked about it. My dad

always has a beer in his hand, but he's never drunk. Because that's a coozy guys. Yeah. They have a coozy because it keeps the beer cold that way they don't. Because that's why you end up pounding the beers because it starts to cool, it starts to warm up. a little bit and you're like gross so you drink it before it gets too cold or too warm. But if you have a coozy, you can nurse a beer for two hours and then get another one. You can always have a beer and never get drunk.

It's great. So that's what he does. That's what I understand is that's, he's just pretty, he loves a beer. He'll drink all day, but he'll never be noticeably hammered. No, no, no, no. He's not a mess or he's never sloppy or anything like that from what I understand. One of his cousins said, too, at his age, you would have seen, if you would have seen him, you wouldn't have thought he was that old.

He was very healthy, skinny. He was very, very active. Skinny, too. Yeah, despite drinking because he's playing pickup basketball all weekends. And his job is landscaping and physical work. So he stays in pretty good shape. So in 2005, this in-shaped guy, picture a little bit of gold on him.

Sure. Fun guy. A little bit of beer on his breath. Oh, yeah, coozy out of his pocket. Asked you if you need one. You bet. Corvette keychain hanging out of the pocket. Corvette Cousie.

Yeah. You know, that's what's on there. Says Got Vette on it. Yeah, there's a Chevy symbol with Got Vett in the middle. So, but he's an easy Christmas present because you know you can just get him some Corvette shit and he'll... Oh, my God. Amazon's full of that guy's gift. No problem.

Easy done. Now, 2005, he goes to a friend's wedding and meets a lady. All right. At the wedding. So good for him. He meets a young lady, a little bit younger than him, about 13 years younger than him, named Tammy Louise Smith Engelman. Engelman is her. She just got divorced a little while ago, and Engelman's her divorce name, but Tammy Louise Smith.

But he meets her. She's a certified nursing assistant, CNA. She's a single mother with teenagers, two older that are kind of out of the house and like in college or whatever. and then one that is almost college age. So she's in her 30s, almost 40s? Yeah, she's in her 40s. 58, so she would be 47 at this point. Yeah, she's 47.

13 years? Yeah, he's born 45. She's born in 58. Oh, got it. Okay. Yeah. Now, she's in her late 40s, but she, everybody says, is a stunner. Really? She's a real stunner.

Her ex-husband, her ex-husband has some descriptions about her, but who's ex-da. I asked your ex-wife, describe Jimmy. Don't you dare. You would not want what she said being public, I'm sure. And if I asked you, well, I have, I didn't need to ask you, actually. You just tell me. But if the things you say about her, so, you know, exes you can't really trust. Yeah.

You don't need to give Jimmy too much prompting. He'll give you his opinion on it. Have you ever been married? Boy, have I. Boy, let me tell you something. You turn around, there's a spinning bar stool that's empty. The guy ran away. He's like, oh, he knew it was coming.

Have I ever? Let me tell you a story. Hey, where'd you go? Hey. So, this is Don Engelman, her ex-husband, described her as, quote, a very beguiling, shrewd person. Those are not good words. Read between those lines.

And you barely even have to read between them, because the words themselves are pretty close to being between the lines anyway. Shrewd is what you'd call like a con man who screwed you over. Like a shrewd businessman to me means he fucks people over to get ahead. That's a guy that's into business to a point of stealing yours and not giving a dime of his. That's true. That's true. Yeah.

He also says, quote, I'm not a psychiatrist, which is a great way to start a sentence, by the way. But I feel like she needs one. I'm not a doctor, but he said, I'm not a psychiatrist, but she falls under the definition or category of a sociopath, trying to figure out how to avoid society's rules and regulations. Yeah. Which is, I could put that description on a lot of people I know. Yeah, sociopath. You're always trying to get around something. You know what I mean?

I mean, it also means unfeeling. You don't feel things that normal people feel. So more of psychopath is not feeling. Sociopath also. That's the word. Yeah. Yeah, empathy. That's more attached to psychopath.

Sociopath is more tenent. It's not a, it's not a diagnosis. It's a, it's features of something. Behavior crate. Yeah, traits. Trite. It's a trait more than a, like a psychopath would be a diagnosis sort of. But sociopath is it really a diagnosis?

Neither is really a psychopath. That's like you could put a label of that. That person's a psychopath without empathy. The sociopath is a little more nebulous, from what I understand. Again, I'm not a psychiatrist. We're not doctors here by any stretch to everybody. I was not diagnosed as one. Don't mistake that we are.

I know you were probably watching this thinking, wow, these two gentlemen are doctors. We're not. I'll tell you right now. They're discussing the subtle nuance between psycho slash socios. We dropped out, you know, the last week of residency. So we're not quite doctors, but we're not doctors and we don't know shit. be boring and tedious. Yeah, but traits of murderers are something that we have studied.

I'm pretty good at that. Yeah, I would say you could put most psychiatrists up against us sitting here. We probably know just as much about a lot of that shit just from doing almost 700 episodes of this. It's a lot. So now, Tammy, she's divorced, obviously, but she doesn't look like she's in her late 40s either. Okay. She always wears makeup and wears her hair very careful. careful, always dressed nicely.

And according to other people, too, she's been medically enhanced as well, quote, quote. She's had a tummy tuck, breast implants, and more. And, quote, and more. So I don't know if that's the ass or what, but. But the lips or. Yeah. She's really getting after it.

Yeah. Don Engelman, her ex-husband, said she was attractive. She could fix herself up to be a knockout. She was what they call a good cat. according to people in the area. A good looker, as they said. That's her ex-husband. A good looker.

She's a good looker, everybody. He said she's a good catch. Well, here's the thing. By looks. You'd want to fuck her, right? That's what she is. That's what he broke it down to. Yeah.

According to her friend, Jennifer Melton, she's also very generous. This is her friend Jennifer said, there was one Christmas where I was a little short on money and my kids were younger and she left $300 for my kids. Tammy always seemed like a really great person and a really great friend. Now it was Jennifer who introduced Tammy to Alan at the wedding. She felt the two, and this wasn't just a random, you know, they were talking, this guy walked up. Hey, you don't know Alan, this is Alan, Alan, Tamma.

She purposely went out of her way to make sure to make these two connect. and to introduce them. She said that she thought they both had matching personalities. Interesting. Friendly, outgoing, also very kind. And Alan was also attractive and he looked younger than he was too. So she thought this is a perfect match. One of Alan's ex-girlfriends, Marabeth, said he was the type of guy who, when you walked into a room, when he walked into a room, you turned around and noticed.

You noticed him. Alan was. Alan was. You rarely hear that about a guy. No, exactly. Yeah, because who the hell cares? Right. That's what I mean.

Whole room's full of dicks. We don't care. Yeah. Oh, look, another one. Great. So, and the people said Alan's very confident, and he also has a great ability to make people feel good about themselves and feel good. So these two seem to be a match made in heaven here. Yeah.

And they get together, and I mean, they hit it off immediately. Good for Al. They are into it. Crazy part is they are at the altar getting married in 12 weeks. 12 weeks. That's three months, everybody. Way too quick. Fast.

Imagine that. Three fucking months. I guess if you're older and you think, hey, this is great. Yeah, but get me in my 60s and have me look at a gal that looks great naked and wants to show it to me a lot. I'm going to take her to the altar before she can change her mind. That's what I mean. He's 60s. years old this year. Yeah. Yeah. So I think if you're older, you might just be like,

ah, well, if we get along and we, what are we wasting time for him? Yeah. You know? So that's it. And they barely knew each other, but they're in there. Wow. Now, Alan's family, according to his cousin, was worried about this marriage from the beginning because it was such a fast thing. We're like, what's going on? But I mean, he is 60s. Now he's 19. Probably make his own decisions by now, I would say, right? He's been in the Navy. He's If not now, when, you know what I'm saying? So, anyway, they said they were a little skeptical. His cousin, Zyla, said, I think Alan's heart was 100% in it.

Tammy's, I think she was just in it for one thing. What is it? What do you think? There's only two things that women are in the store, right? That's the sad part. As guys, that's what we think. Does she want money, or does he have a great thing? Great dick. Which ones? That's it. Yeah. That's pretty funny. No. Money. All right. They think it's money.

Because Alan looks to be... Looks like a million bucks. But he also lives in a motel. Great point. By the time you marry someone, you know they live in a motel, I would think. You'd been to their room. You'd think this guy isn't wealthy. I get that he has a nice watch and shit, but he probably bought that in better time. You know what I mean? Obviously, this isn't the best time right now. Yeah. But, yeah, his cousin Zilis said, if you looked at Alan, he looked rich. The way he carried himself, the clothes he wore, the jewelry he wore, he looked rich.

But that's it. According to a friend of Allen's, Tammy had likely been attracted to Allen's money and what she thought that he probably had based on what he looked. Yeah. According to his cousin David, he said after he got out of the Navy, he worked on an oil. field, I think out in Oklahoma, he said, but he was just juggling a bunch of jobs. Like, he wasn't rich at all. Yeah.

So he said that she was barking up the wrong tree, basically. I mean, he lived rent-free in a hotel. It's awesome. Yeah. I had a sick watch if I had that. Oh, yeah. I don't have to pay any rent. Holy shit.

I'll tell you, my corvette would be in top-tier shape. He said, everyone was really happy for them because they really seemed in love and very, very happy. So we were all like, this is great. It's a friend of his. And he didn't seem like he was being dragged into it. He's the one that proposed within a month of them meeting. And they get married.

And the cousin said she wanted a honeymoon and she wanted to go to Hawaii. Okay. That's what she wanted. And so they went. Now, they went on Tammy's credit card. That's how they did this. Tammy, you didn't know? This is interesting.

Yeah. So they have a great time. When the honeymoon ended, apparently she, expected, according to her people that know her, she expected Alan to reimburse her for what she'd spent on the trip. What's yours is mine? What's mine is yours?

Yeah, so she's like at least, you know, half of it, whatever. She also demanded that he moved out of this hotel where he lived for free and buy a house with her. Let's get a big home in a nice neighborhood. This is ridiculous. We need to, she still has a daughter living at home. You know, so she wanted that.

The cousin said he knew it was over his means and it was over her means they both knew it, but he did it for her. He bought the house. So he bought a house. He's going to figure out how to pay for it, essentially. Yeah, which is tough. The one thing that she couldn't really get Alan to do because, you know, she, I mean,

think about it, she can pretty much direct him where she wants. And if you love somebody, you'll listen to them as part of it too. Yeah, there's compromise. There's a talk and figuring out common ground. So, but she could not get him to stop drinking. Yeah. She didn't want him to drink and he was like, oh, no, I drink. That's what's, I've done this.

That's what I, yeah. A long time. This is part of my personality. You know what I mean? This is not changing. No. See this coozy? The corvette on it?

These are the two things I like. I'm a coozy man. I can't not drink. I'm a coozy man. What am I going to do with all these coosies? What am I going to put it in these? I mean, what am I going to? Who's change?

I can make them into flour pots. I can do nothing. with these things. It's a bunch of what is that like neoprite or whatever the fuck it's called. Neoprene of some sort? Neoprene. I don't think it's biodegradable. No, no, no, no. I think it sticks around forever. I think you've got to dispose of them

in the same place you put batteries, right? Yeah. Otherwise a turtle gets stuck in his face. Yeah. There's coozy recycling centers you can go to and special like the battery ones. Yeah, they chip them up and pay freeways with them. Yeah, yeah, they use it as mulch sometimes I feel like. It's cushy.

So he said, this is a friend of his said, this man who drank very often every time I saw him, he had a beer in his hand. Yeah, that's fair. Now, Tammy's got her youngest daughter still living at home when they get married. This daughter will be a constant source of problems

for Alan and Tammy here. A lot of friction. Apparently, she's very disrespectful toward him, which she's like a late teen, like 16, and now I'm stepdad. Yeah. Sorry, dude. I don't know you.

You met my mom three fucking months ago. It's not like they've been dating for a few years and you're used to him. He's just some guy you just met. And now this is your new dad or this is your stepdad. I'm 16. I've seen her tits more than you have. Shut up. Yeah.

Fuck that. Yeah, that's ridiculous. So I don't think I would have reacted well to that as a 16 year old. I don't know that I'd be like. Some strange guys. coming in. Yeah, we're not going to be pals. Yeah, you're not going to tell me what to do, certainly. No. You've earned none of that. Was it a coozy in your pocket? Get the fuck out of you. No, I don't need a coozy. I'm fine right now. I'm 16. I can't even drink beer.

So she disrespected him a lot, and Tammy, Tammy spoiled her kids from what people said to, and said that she let her daughter treat Alan like complete shit. She didn't, she didn't say, hey, you know, yeah, he doesn't tell you what to do and everything, but, you know, at least respect them for the guy who owns the fucking house with me and helps pay the mortgage, and she didn't do that. So, Tammy's daughter was an issue and Alan's drinking, and Tammy is, you know, pissed off at that. And Tammy's got a problem of her own.

And it's spending. Oh. She doesn't drink. She likes to spend money. She's a shopper. Shit. And she likes to do that. She likes to get clothes all the time.

She'll go out on huge shopping sprees that she can't afford. Absolutely. Absolutely. They're financially, they're in deep shit. They have creditors calling all the time. Oh, boy. It's not good. It's so due.

This is immediately. I mean, we're talking car payments overdue, you know, credit cards, this, that, everything overdue. The house is getting close to pushing into the foreclosure area. Already. It's not good. Also, the youngest daughter is going to go off to college and the tuition was coming due and They didn't have that either.

And it's a lot. Now, Alan recently had started a new job with a glass installation company. This is at the request of Tammy also. Tammy wanting him to stop bouncing around from job to job and get a solid career that she can count on that he'll be there. And she'll know his salary and they'll know what he's going to make every year and all that kind of shit. So he does that. He tries to placate her and do that and everything like that. Now, Tammy, she likes to shop.

Like I said, she likes clothes. She likes plastic surgery. She likes expensive shit that makes her look better. That's what she likes. So she started hitting the mall all the time, just shopping it up. And she kept a secret bank account. But that doesn't really matter because there's not basically, she's got bills that she can't pay that are normal bills. And then she's trying to also run up credit cards.

on clothes and shit like that. They said she had clothes. She never even took out of the closet. She has money to make a secret bank account when we don't have enough money to pay for the other accounts. Yeah, yeah. This is, I mean, this is like an addiction. Like if he was putting money aside for like pills or something,

you know what I mean, or whatever the fuck, it would be a similar thing. And this is her thing here. And her ex-husband said she would get it under control for a little bit. and then she'd turn right back around and just start over again like people like addicts do that's what happens so he said that was pretty tough um so they're a year into their marriage this is early 2007 and they're bickering all the time tammy and alan um just more fighting than anything else is what a friend said they're just fighting constantly now tammy's family owns a pretty substantially sized farm pretty big farm and she told alan she's going to one day inherit this whole thing. Oh. And so Alan was like, oh, you know, that's also here.

There's money down the line, some relief eventually. But I mean, who knows how long her parents will live? That could be, forget it. So during all this, there's a lot of turmoil. They've only been married a year and change. There's a bunch of turmoil, financial turmoil, just a lot of things, fighting with that. It's ugly. Yeah.

With the teenage daughter, bickering. Things aren't great. It's a 90-day relationship turned into a marriage. That's not good. That's crazy. Yeah, that is crazy. It's funny because if you watch 90-day fiancé, you go, this is too soon. It's just too soon.

And those people knew each other, sometimes for years online and over video chats and all that shit for years. And you still go, oh, this is way too soon. Too soon. This is incredibly too soon. They never even saw each other before they met. That's crazy. So she ends up, here's the problem. She has a patient of hers as a CNA who's.

an older guy. Right. And this patient's son is an insurance agent named Gary Ruddle, R-U-D-D-E-L-L. And this Gary Ruddle comes to see his, you know, father or mother or whoever's in there that she's working on. And Tammy takes a liking to Gary. Oh, boy. So much so that they're having a pretty torrid affair pretty quickly. Really? Oh, yeah. People, the neighbors started noticing a man coming and going from the house during the day while Alan's at work. Jesus. So one of the neighbors told Alan about it. It was like, hey, you know, which by the way, that is how a murder suicide with people that I know happened up the street for me.

Right. It was exactly that. Don't tell. Hey, what's the words we always say to people? The big three words. Your own fucking business. your business. Mind your fucking business.

All of you. I know you want to help and that's great and that's a nice instinct, but you don't know what this could unravel. You know what I mean? They'll figure it out. And when they do, that's on them. It's none of your goddamn business. Either way.

Yeah. So a neighbor told me out. When he comes to you and says, did you ever see her fucking, oh, I thought you knew. Oh, yeah. What are you talking about? Bro, it was so fucking obvious.

I just figured. I figured it was a, you know, it's, hey, your guys is business. I don't know what you guys are into, you know, I don't know. What relationships happen nowadays. It's fine. Yeah, yeah. But this happened a while ago, around Christmas, actually.

People I met at a Christmas party there. It's exact same thing. Like two days before. Two days before, except the opposite of this, because they'd been married for 40-something years, almost 50 years, rather than, you know, barely knew each other. And same thing. He caught it.

He came home and it was a murder-suicide, And it was ugly. Sold all his tools or gave him away. Gave him away. Yeah, yeah. It's a crazy thing. I was telling people at the shop, you know, take my tools. It's like, okay, you know that something's going to happen if somebody's giving all the tools of their trade away.

Right. Nobody gives away all of their tools. Even the crescent, even the crescent. All right. What's the matter with you? Especially while they're sobbing. Yeah. Jesus Christ.

The star tools, the hexheads? You're giving me those too? No. Come on. All of them? No, no, no. I'm not buying it. Yeah.

Hey, let's sit down. Let's have a beer. I got a clue. Hey. This one's for you. This one's for you. Hands it out. Hey, hold on a minute.

There you go. Hey, what do you want? What do you want? Corvette or Chevy logo? Which one? I'll let you pick. Corvette are just all Chevy products encompassed. Yeah, just a straight Chevy one.

That's a sketch. It's, yeah. That's a mental health, a mental health sketch. Yes, it is right there. Tadda. And seen. What do you think, guys? Good?

I'm the wife and kids survive, all because he had two coosies. He had multiple coosies. See what happens when you bring coosies around? This is why my father's lived a long and happy life, I think, because he's always got multiple coosies on him. So Alan comes home and catches Tammy in the middle of it. Uh-oh. Oh. Oh, no. Catches somebody else in the middle of it. Well, she's in there too. Certainly, but he's in between it.

So she, his name is Gary Ruddell, of course, as we met, or Gary Ruttle there, the insurance salesman, one of Tammy's sons, our patient sons. And there they go. Wow. Alan finds out about it and he decides that the only thing he really does to wrecked he doesn't leave or anything. But he's He closes their joint bank account and opens a bank account solely in his name. Like, okay, well, you're not shopping with my money anymore, essentially. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you how to make your cat's litter a little less stinky. With actually a lot less stinky with Boxicat.com, B-O-X-E-Cat.com. That's right. I love my cat.

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Now back to the show. He's pissed off, basically. And apparently he makes more money than her CNAs do not make a lot of money at all. No, that's the bottom rung of nursing. Very little money. They're literally ass wipers. That's what they do. A lot of it.

I mean, they do. They do tough work, believe me. Yeah. If you've ever. But it's a lot of bottom rung work. It's not. They don't do IVs. They're just doing...

And that's not to disrespect it. Because if you've ever had a parent or a grandparent or anybody relative in any kind of like long-term care or anything like that, these are the people that keep them alive and keep them running and everything else. What's the tough job? That job is where you start for your RN thing or on your way back down. Why would you go back down? It's like if you're done nursing and you just want to sign. and then from there you do this and then you're back to stand up on the stage. You've lost your audience.

That's not how real jobs work. It's when an RN gets caught in a sex scandal. Yeah, then they knock you down to it. When they're caught DMing people on Snapchat. After that, it's a CNA. What's the middle rung? Because there's a CNA and an R. LPN.

Yeah, yeah, there you go. They become an LPN. They go back down again. That's a very sad downfall of nurses. There that is. You go back down. You said it like it was a comedy club. This is where you either come up or go back down, guys.

That's so fun. Oh, the chuckle factory in Toledo. Yeah, that's an up or down. You know, not when you're up here. Yeah, you get on the way over on the way down. You'll see. Yeah, you'll see Polly Shore there this weekend. You might see somebody that's going to be on Saturday Night Live in six years.

It's possible, yeah. Jesus Christ. Or just got off of Saturday. Night Live. Yeah. I've seen from people, you know.

So anyway, that's what's going on here. Alan and they're, you know, they're fighting a lot, basically. He's apparently, he moves out of the house.

But this is not to end it. He wants a reconciliation. He wants to fix this. Yeah. He's still coming over to mow the lawn and do all that shit. He still helps out around the house. And he tells his friends

that they're getting back together. They're just going through a rough pack. Which, poor, that's where Gary was in the middle of, too, a rough patch. He was in there, too. That's in the rough over there. So, Tammy was telling friends that she wanted Gary and that she was done with Alan and that she's not getting back together with him at all. She's just taking the lawn mowing.

Now, there's an incident here where Tammy allegedly gets a call from her youngest daughter, the one who still lives at home, claiming Alan was drinking and hit her. Okay. Which kind of goes against what everybody says of his character, but when people are drinking, you never know. Anything's possible. She's also a disrespectful little shit. That's true. So maybe he got drunk and she maled off.

If you got a mouthy teenager and a person who you know drinks all the time, you could see something happening there. It's possible. Two and two equals four there. And he may not even hit her. He just may have walked through a door and went, nah. It just made contact with her face. The officers who responded to the call found no marks because she reported to the police that he was drunk and violent. The cops came.

They found no marks at all on Tammy's daughter. Right. And they filed no charges or did nothing because they said, and this is in the 2000s. So they said this is bullshit and they left. They didn't, you know, think that anything happened. But Allen spent the night at a hotel at the request of the authorities and then he returned home. This is when he moves out for good for a while. he returned home to find that the locks have been changed.

Oh, what? Yeah. So now they are not quite their second wedding anniversary, and they already have changed locks, which is a bad sign. Games being played. Yeah. Yeah. But Alan wanted to make this work.

His friend said, I think Alan truly loved Tammy, and when you truly love someone, it's hard to cut that off. Yeah. Now, Tammy has some problems at her job. She was working at Miller's Mary Manor, which is a nursing home in Columbus. Sure. And the charge nurse, Charles Rose, you know, his talk show was on hiatus, so he was doing this. Did he get fired unceremoniously, Charlie Row?

Yes, he had some accusations, let's just say. Maybe this is what he's doing now. This is what he was doing. In 2007, he was still in a black background talking to celebrities, though. so he's on the way back down. That's how it works. First you have your own talk show and then you have to be a charge nurse.

And then if you fuck up more, you're a CNA. And then you're out of the business. That's how it works. It's over. And if you want to have your own talk show for decades at a time, you've got to start as a CNA. That's how it goes.

That's the way up the rungs. That's it. It's not our rules. We just live by him. So Charles Rose said that he left a nearly full bottle of Roxanol, R-O-X-A-N-O-L, on a hospice patient's bedside table. Now, Roxanol is insanely strong liquid morphine. And they say, is it syrup? It is syrup.

It's wild. It comes in an eyedropper. Oh, God. An eyedropper bottle with a lavender-colored liquid. And it is apparently, it's insane. It's used for dying patients in extreme pain in their last days of lives. Yeah, it's literally you're dying of cancer, some horrible disease, and it's to just make you comfortable for your last couple days as you die. That's what it's for.

And from what I understand, they say a lot of times they sometimes people who are in really bad states, they give them a little bit of extra of this to kind of push it along a little bit. They kind of push the envelope of what they can give them to put them out of their misery type of deal. Um, so it's, that's what it's used for. It's extremely potent. A therapeutic dose is measured in the low hundreds of nanograms per milliliter. Tiny bits. Very, very, very, very tiny doses of this shit is strong.

Um, now this Charlie Rose went to get the bottle after lunch. She realized he left it there. I was like, oh shit. Um, and it was gone. No. Now, Tammy was the only staff member present in the wing at that time. But they didn't have any evidence she took it or anything. And when asked Tammy said she never even saw the bottle,

has no idea what anybody's talking about. Didn't see it. I don't know. I was over in the other part of the wing. I have no clue. She suggested maybe a visitor took it. That's possible. Somebody came in to visit anybody.

She said this patient's daughter comes to visit all the time. Maybe it's the daughter that did it. And at that point, it's much, much less the who took it and more the, who the fuck left it out to be taken? Well, that's a problem. That looks bad. Yeah, who left it out? It all looks, this is all terrible and irresponsible.

And now, Charlie Rose knew that the daughter couldn't have done it because the daughter's a school teacher who never visits during the day. Oh. Until the, I mean, it could have been a half day. These kids have so many half days by the way. And days off. And days off. It's crazy how many half days and days off. I'm like, they just don't, what's the point?

Yeah. God damn. The half day for my daughter is literally an hour less. It's like, why don't we just stay? What are we doing? What are we doing? Yeah, why bother with this? This is so dumb.

Unless they're getting out of like 11 a.m. What are we talking about? It fucks my whole day to get there earlier. It ruins everything. It's hard. So now the director of nursing at Miller's Mary Manor later told investigators the last day she worked for us. We were really concerned because we had a bottle of morphine sulfate turned up missing. And now morphine's gone.

Yeah. Now, there's another issue here in the summer of 2007. So this is months later. That was March of 2007. In the summer of 2007, you know, Tammy had left that job. She apparently was at Allen's cousin's house, Zyla Thompson, who we got a lot of quotes from. Apparently, Zyla would always leave a large bottle of flexeril on the table just inside her front door.

Oh. In case she was out of like mini snickers during Halloween. It's, you know, you got to give the kid something. They'll throw eggs at your house. You know what I mean? Is it flexorol? Like for... Flexoril.

Yeah, it's a muscle relaxer. Yeah. And a prescription one. It's not a, yeah, it's, you can't buy it over the counter. It's nothing like that. It's a strong shit. So she leaves that for some reason always just leaves a big bottle of it there just in case. Okay.

case anybody needs a flexeril or two. She had a block party during this time that both Alan and Tammy attended. This is while they talk for a minute, then they're mad at each other, and they talk and they're mad. Now, after the party, the flexerol is way less full than it was before the party, which, I mean, that shows it's a good party, right? Also shows that that shit works, yeah. Yeah. They, she says that she estimated, this is how big this bottle of flexeral is, by the way. She estimated somewhere between 100 to 200 pills were gone.

What, you get this from Costco? I mean, it's got to be the size of like a fucking protein powder thing. It's got to be ridiculous. Does it have a scoop inside too? That's so much. What I got about 30, 40 of them in there and you scoop it into your morning shake? I don't know what's going on. But that's a lot of pills right.

there. I don't know what the average prescription is, but it's got to be less than 200 pills, right? I can't imagine you got... Why did she have that many? 200 pills. This can't be a prescription one. How unrel relaxed are her muscles? Yeah. How fucking tight are you, lady? What the fuck? So early August 2007. Okay. So that goes by. So now Tammy's been around drugs disappearing in two separate places. Okay. Now, when Tammy, Tammy invites Alan over and says, listen, you need to come over and sign some papers.

It's related to mortgage insurance. So you need to sign it. It's important. She told him that, listen, once the daughter moves out and goes to college, maybe we can try and reconcile this and see if it works together if we're here by ourselves and all that kind of thing. But, you know, you need to sign this mortgage insurance paper. That's going to help out a lot, too. And also after the mortgage crisis, they were making us have fucking insurance. Exactly.

Exactly. That makes sense this whole time. And so he said he would sign the mortgage insurance policy. No problem. She basically one of them said, quote, he couldn't move home. This is somebody they knew. He couldn't move home until he could prove. Oh, this is Tammy.

I'm sorry. He couldn't move home until he could prove to me that, number one, he could hold down a job for a long period of time. and get good evaluations. She's looking at his fucking... What? She's looking at his quarterly fucking... Yeah, we're looking at my report card? What are we doing?

And that he had to not necessarily quit drinking totally, but not drink on a daily basis. Okay, there needs to be some improvement. Some improvement shown. And somebody said later, she said that she was encouraging Alan to go home and said he would later, and he was drinking and drinking

and drinking quite heavily. This was after the insurance thing. So he signs the paper and then he's leaving now. Also there, while he signs the paper, Gary Ruddle. Yeah, because he wrote the insurance policy. You're going to sign, I'm not signing shit. Well, I call this guy balls deep because I found him balls deep in my life. I'm not signing shit where you get a cut.

You get commission off of this? Right. I'm not signing anything with the donut filler here. No, not at all. Yeah. So, anyway, that's what's going on here. And he's telling friends and coworkers that once the daughter goes off to college, we're going to get back together and everything's going to be fine.

And the daughter's going to college like in September. So this is early August. So it's happening. But he also said that he was getting kind of suspicious of Tammy and her motivations. He told apparently friends and neighbors in August, basically, and in July of 2007, that if you ever find me dead, just make sure it's thoroughly investigated, that's all. So I'm in pretty good shape besides the drinking.

So, you know, that's what he said. Man. Make sure they thoroughly investigated if I get found dead in a weird way. That seems to be a very common thing to say to people nowadays. People say that all the time now. I've heard it so many times in these stories, date line, 48 hours.

I think our last story, somebody said that. Yeah. Fun dead, they did it. Have a look at them or whatever. Yeah. They even, yeah, who to look at. They even give you a goddamn, I'll give you a lead on my future murder investigation. It'll tell you to look at.

Even Chris Watts's wife said that. That shenanlady said it. It happens all the time. It really does. Now, August 23rd, 2007. Okay. Alan comes over to Tammy's home here on Lake Crest Drive, the family house. Okay.

Now, Tammy asked him to come up. over to work on an air conditioning unit that wasn't working right. Yeah. In the Indiana heat in August. That's, it's sticky in Indiana. Real sticky. So Tammy made dinner for him and them. You know, that's nice of her.

She describes the dinner as chicken salad, fresh fruits and vegetables, and her signature dessert. Yeah. This is her dessert that she loves. It's her jam. And it is chocolate dirt pudding. Why does all these names Why do they have to have terrible names

All these desserts? It's a dump cake. It's a shit pile. It's a fucking... Dump cake's the worst. It's all a dump dirt. I don't want any of that. I want none of that shit.

And that dirt pie or dirt pudding, whatever the fuck, it's not your recipe. Stop it. No. But she makes it the best. You crumbled up some fucking cookie on some jello yogurt. Jello pudding.

Stop. It's Oreo. It's Oreo cookie crumbles. Yep. Obviously. Vanilla pudding and cream cheese. Whoa. She really, wow.

Boy, did you get crazy on your three ingredients? She came to the fork in the road and went straight, man. Just blew my mind right there. Did you see that? Holy cow. With an arm full of three things from the grocery store. And cream cheese? Oh, now, see, that's what I, that done blowed my mind right there.

And cream cheese. Jello pudding, Philadelphia cream cheese, Oreo cookies. You're telling me you combine those and it's delicious. Wait a second. Cream cheese? You put cream cheese in there and it was good. What you're saying is. Unbelievable.

Boy, mind-blowing. Mind-blowing. Way to go to Betty Crocker. Yeah. So she makes his plate. Yeah. He takes a couple of bites of the chicken salad, one slice of tomato, and then goes to the pudding and eats some of the pudding. Also, she says she made him two Long Island iced teas.

I don't want you to drink anymore. Let me make you the drink with the most booze in it possible. All the alcohol. What is that? You're sending mixed signals if you're making someone who you want to quit drinking a Long Island Ice Day. I don't think there's an ingredient in that that doesn't have booze. No, it's all booze. Well, this is the thing that you're going to get the sweet from.

Oh, it's booze still. And then the acidities from this. The splash of the brown is soda. And that's what makes it look like tea. Ice tea. But everything else is just booze. Yeah. So he starts to get hot and goes outside.

Yeah. He goes outside to cool down. He sits down in the lawn chair on the back porch. outside to cool down a little bit. Stuffy in the house. He came to fix an air conditioner. He's got a nice tea. And he falls asleep in the chair out back on the lawn chair, which plenty of 60-year-old guys have a couple of drinks after dinner and fall asleep on a nice comfy lawn chair.

That'll happen. Fall asleep where I sit. Yeah. Yep. So 8.4 a.m. the next morning. Yeah. All right. August 24th.

Tammy calls 911. Uh-oh. Okay. Now, 911 call. She says, Emergency 911, which is, they go 911. And she says, emergency 911? Domino's pizza. Domino's pizza?

Yeah. So we said. She said, yes, my name is Tammy Duval. I live at Lake Crest Drive and I think my husband is dead. That's what she says. She tells the operator he's a heavy drinker. She says that he came over the night before to fix an air conditioner. This is on the phone to 911.

She's given the whole story. This is not necessary. Nope. She said he became overheated. He went outside to cool down. And she went and ended up falling asleep. And she found him in the chair the next morning. This is what happened.

What are you doing? So 820, the first responders arrive. And, you know, it's a quiet neighborhood, everything like that. They get there. They find him slump down in a lawn chair on the back porch. No signs of a struggle, no signs of violence, no torn shirt and there's some blood on him or anything like that. The back porch is basically a concrete slab. Just a little concrete slab.

Had a couple of lawn chairs and that's where he was sitting. Eyes closed, not moving. There he is. 61 years old and dead as shit. So they said no blood, no signs of a struggle, no torn clothing, no defensive wounds, nothing to indicate violence of any kind. They said you could tell his color was off. but he said the position he was in looked peaceful,

looked like a guy who looked like he fell asleep and didn't wake up. Comfortable man. Comfortable. It's a damn nice chair. The responding officer said, this is the healthiest dead person I think I've ever seen. There's no sign of trauma to the body. So there we go.

Police photographs show him in the chair. His shirt is off, but we assume that because he's hot. So you take his shirt off first. It's August. Yeah, they said he just looks like he's fine. Now, the initial ruling is probably accidental alcohol poisoning mixed with heat exhaustion. Okay. They said you mix those two together and get a guy who's 60 years old, drinks a little too much,

especially a bunch of different, you know, liquors in one drink and then a heat exhaustion. And that's what happens. Sit down in a cozy chair. You're liable to never wake up again. That's it. Poor guy's dead. That's all. So they kind of think, oh, that's tragic. That sucks. Terrible even. Yeah.

It happens. You know, it happens. So this is the same day, August 24th, same goddamn day that they found him in the chair. Tammy is already on the phone trying to arrange cremation. Oh. That day. We're going to burn it up now. Yes.

She said she wanted it done today. Oh, can we do that today? Yeah. Because obviously, cremation isn't something you make an appointment for six months in the future. Yeah. They work on a generally, you know, however it comes schedule. Yeah, you know, so usually it's, you know, tomorrow or two days from now or the funeral's this day, have it done before then. Instead, she said, I need it done today, now, right now.

And they said that was really weird, especially because Alan owned a burial plot that he wanted to be buried in. Oh, yeah, then what the fuck? Which is strange. He had told members of his family, he bought a burial. plot plot and he wants a military funeral because he was in the Navy. Yeah. So he wants the whole thing with the flag and all that stuff. Yeah, there's no reason to spend any money on anything.

And they'll do that for you. The government will do this. Yeah. Trust me. Yeah. My cheap-ass grandmother definitely took advantage of those things for her dead husbands. So she said she wanted it done that day and the detective in this situation who had just looked over the scene because they have to have a dead, they have to have a detective sign off

on the, on a dead person. it's not a homicide and they can bag them up basically. So this detective said she wanted to have it done that day and I had to try to stop it somehow. Wow. Now that's tough because she is the woman's husband or the man's husband. They're not legally separated or anything like that. She has all the rights of a spouse. So he didn't know.

This is Detective Mark Crutchin and he's a veteran guy. And he said something just didn't smell right. Why does he need to be cremated right the second when he owns it? It's a burial plot. Trying to get an Amazon Prime cremation deal done? Yeah, they need it done today. No, same day, same day. Right now.

Right now. He had Domino's cremation, they call. 30 minutes or less. I needed by 4 p.m. The, the, a 911 call itself was just off to him. He thought it was off. He said, it wasn't anything that you could name anything or you said, oh, she said that. That's wrong.

But he said it just, it was just a weird vibe. and it was something about it just seems staged. Just kind of the whole thing. This performed or something. The tone she had was of a woman who knew approximately what was about to happen versus a woman who had genuinely stumbled upon her husband's dead body. It didn't seem like to him like she was just like, oh my God, there's my husband call. I don't know.

It seemed like someone who was very controlled and whatever. But you'd also think that someone from a hospice nurse or a nursing home nurse, death is not a, oh my God, panic thing. If she walks in and finds somebody dead, you know, I get this as your husband, but you'd still, your initial reaction wouldn't be that initial normal freak out people have when they see a dead body. And she's very well aware of the process of how this happens because she has absolutely changed a bedpan. Come back 30 minutes later and that person is no longer there. For sure. Yep.

So they said within the first hours, he places a hold on the cremation. So he gets that, gets an order to stop that. And he orders an autopsy to be done. And he'd like a background investigation on Tammy, just based on her suspicious actions here. So then he starts getting phone calls. From who? Well, from a lot of people. Number one, from the, from Alan.

cousins from Tammy's ex-husband, from Tammy's own daughter, from Tammy's son-in-law. The daughter? Not the one from the house, the one who's already moved out of the house. All of them said, look at Tammy. Have a look see it, Ma. Look, just keep an eye on her. So that's when he puts the hold on the cremation and orders the autopsy. And he said he listened to the 911 call over and over and over again.

And he said it just didn't seem right. He said that, or this is court document. documents later on said several of Tammy and Allen's family members contacted the Columbus Police Department to convey their suspicions. And that's when this all happened. Now, he's got to wait for autopsy results. Because that takes a while and get toxicologies and all that kind of thing. So while they're waiting, Tammy keeps asking when the department planned to close this investigation because it's fucking up her efforts to get the life insurance policy to cash in. It's like, I can't cash in until you close this thing.

So is this almost over or what? What are we doing here? Then the autopsy comes back. Now, number one, blood alcohol level is insane. Really? Insane. 0.4? 0.436.

That is a hammered individual. That is so... That's so deadly. That is, I believe, higher than John Bonham had when he died. Really? who was the Led Zeppelin's drummer, who was famous for being the craziest alcoholic on earth, and he died, I think, less than that in his system. If you don't know who Led Zeppelin is, let's see, how to explain that. Best cover band of all time.

Yeah. So it's insane. It's an insane amount of booze in your system. Yeah. My mom ruined... 0.8 is legal. Yeah. My mom ruined Thanksgiving or an Easter by going to a wedding and being taken to the hospital.

with a point four and nearly died. Yeah, that's, that is, you're lucky to not die. Danger. Yeah, she was in bed for like four days after she was drinking nothing but Gatorade and then throwing it up. I bet. So, and that was consistent with Tammy's account that he's a heavy drinker. He's always drinking and she made him Long Island iced teas and all that kind of shit.

And who knows me drank before he came over. So that's consistent. But then they get to the rest of the autopsy. They found that he has 6590-9-9. nanograms per milliliter of morphine in a system. That doesn't happen naturally. The therapeutic maximum is about 60 nanograms per milliliter. And is it what?

6,590. Literally a thousand times more. A hundred. A hundred times the therapeutic dose. Oh. Yeah. A hundred times the therapeutic dose, which is insane. Yeah.

Also, cyclobenzaprine, which is flexeril. Yeah. Flexoril, remember that? He has 3,229 nanograms per milliliter, which is about eight times the therapeutic dose. Oh, boy. Now, some people, if you take a lot of flexero, maybe you could probably get up to a tolerance of that and be fine. But a hundred times the therapeutic dose of morphine will kill you. That's so much.

Period. Yeah. So the pathologist confirms that Alan died of a morphine overdose. Not even the booze. Not even the booze. They said the alcohol and muscle relaxants were. contributing factors, just basically made a huge, this would have rendered him unconscious almost immediately.

And it would basically kind of cut off his respiratory system from the inside. And screw them all up. That is not too Long Island's either. No, that is way more than that. They also said that his stepbrother, Henry, said, my brother enjoys a drink or two. Don't get me wrong. but he said,

I've never heard him do any kind of drugs. He's just not a drug guy. He's a booze guy. A lot of people are booze or drugs, and especially if you're like old military guys, those guys are booze guys a lot of times. They either are booze guys or not booze guys. So they said,

Alan barely had any contents in his stomach, but they did find a substance consistent, with the consistency of putting in there. Okay. Okay. So this is when the detective says, let's go ahead and start this homicide investigation. Now we got, we got a thing here. Yeah. So he immediately does this and he looks

into their background and he said that creditors were continually calling the marital residence to discuss the delinquencies of various consumer accounts and past due vehicle payments. The marital residence was a subject of foreclosure proceedings and college tuition for the youngest daughter had become due and weren't paid. So they looked and found out. So they looked and found out of the found that Alan had recently started working with a glass insulation company and that Tammy's income as a CNA wasn't nearly enough to cover anything that they do, basically. But Tammy was blaming Alan for the money troubles, even though he made a lot more money. Okay.

She'd often complained to those around her, including friends, co-workers, and her daughter that Alan was unreliable and failed to provide adequate contributions to the family's finances. She told everyone that. Not a man at all. So they go around asking Alan's friends and family about, you know, what does he do on the side? Does he take a, you know, maybe a muscle relaxer here and there to chill out? One here, a guy named Tim Harris, who worked with Alan, said, you couldn't even get him to take an aspirin. He didn't use, he didn't believe in legal or illegal drugs. He didn't like any of drugs. He just like booze. Yeah. He said, I'll, I'll, I'll make it feel better.

Don't worry. I'll have a couple of sips. He said that he saw Alan at a local club the night before he died. And he said that Alan was planning to go to his wife's house to that next night to try to reconcile their marriage. Alan thought this was a big step this next day because she invited him over for dinner or whatever. So this guy said he seemed to be happy to be going back home and to work at it. Tammy's son-in-law, Josh Turner, said, He once heard Tammy say something that made him a bit uncomfortable.

Well, they were watching an episode of CSI. And in the episode, a character tried to poison someone. And Tammy said that the character was, quote, doing it wrong. Not in it at all. Which you automatically start sliding over your chair a little bit from someone. Doing it wrong. What are you talking about? doing it all wrong.

Oh, my God. He said he recalled the comment when he found out that Alan had died, and he said it gave him a trembling feeling. The heji-B-Gee-Gis? The Higi-Begis, as Oregon guy would say there. So another one of Tammy's daughters, Caitlin, that is that guy's wife, that son-in-law's wife, said that she sent an email to Columbus Police Department concerning Alan's death without knowing her husband. had already called the police. They independently, without even discussing it with each other, both felt that they needed to contact the police.

And I could see calling on your mother-in-law, but calling on your own mother, that tells you how bad this is. Yeah. And the fact that they both felt that strongly without even like, should we call? No. No. They didn't even do that. They just both were like, we'll call them.

He called and was like, I'll tell her when I get home. I'll deal with. with the backlash. And she said, I'll tell him when I get home. I'll deal with the backlash. Already emailed. No problem. So they said later on, they'll be asked. So you both independently contacted the police with suspicions that your mother killed her husband. And they both said, yes, that's right. You got it. So the police have to talk to Tammy, obviously. So Tammy tells the cops that he'd been by her home the evening before. She had an air conditioner that needed repair, and he's a real heavy sleeper.

And since she'd moved out, he'd taken to drinking even more heavily than before because she's not breaking his balls about it because he's on his own. And so he was drinking heavily, and he just passed out on the back porch. She said, you know, that's where he sleeps. He just, yeah, he fell asleep on a chair. And you know how it is. When you got a drunk, you just let him sleep where they're sleeping. and you're going to wake them up.

So it's rude. She said also that he'd been feeling depressed that she'd moved out of their house or they don't live together anymore and that they're no longer together. So that's how it goes. She also said, you know, my husband drinks a lot. And honestly, I'm kind of suspicious that he's been doing drugs recently as well. She said, in my, he said, well, what kind of drugs? And she said, I think possibly cocaine.

In my estimation, he's been real high. That's right. So, you know, I think he's been even higher than I thought. So she said, they said, well, what happened when he was over there? And she said, quote, I had made chicken salad and cut up fresh fruits and vegetables and had made this cool pudding dessert. Cool, meaning to cool it down. Yeah, meaning it had cool whip on top. Cool, cream cheese whipped up.

So that's what she said. Now they went, all right. So they get her initial statement, and they're like, okay, well, we'll see if we can poke any holes in that. Then they find out from acquaintances that Tammy's been having an affair with an insurance agent, an insurance agent that drafted up Allen's policy. Oh, boy. The cop's like, what policy? Whoa, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know that she's having an affair.

I don't know about an insurance policy. Yeah. I got a lot to find out. So they said Tammy had gotten involved with someone else. And according to witnesses here, Tammy had been saying she intended to file for divorce. Oh, boy. But that she'd managed to persuade Alan to list her as a beneficiary on his life insurance policy by convincing him that they would eventually reconcile. This is what she told her friends.

Right. I scammed him and they put me on his life insurance. And the policy had been filled out by hand and signed in front of a restaurant in Columbus a month before Alan died. So one of the worst things to come from this was Tammy's own daughter with the email. That's bad because it's like you said. It's one thing to get something from the son-in-law. That's like hearing from the ex-husband. My mother-in-law is a pain in the ass.

Okay, well, whatever. I'm sure she is. I'm sure you're not the first person to say that. Great. But a woman's daughter turning her in or pushing the police that way, that is serious. So they said that's a big deal. Tammy had once described to her, she said, in abstract terms, what, quote, the perfect murder would look like. Oh, boy.

Yeah, she's been thinking about this. Yeah. And that was, quote, poison someone and request immediate cremation. That's how you do. Right now. Which is exactly what she did. So they were like, uh-oh. That's not good.

And also, she said that she was a big fan of TV crime shows and had claimed she knew how to kill someone without getting caught. Wow. Okay. Now, other witnesses come forward as if that wasn't bad enough. This is really bad, though. This is where her story gets real shitty. Now, this is before the 911 call. That came in at 804 a.m. on the 24th. There's a store clerk named Kim Foster, who knows Tammy very well, spoke to Tammy when she opened her store sometime before 7 a.m. She left the house. Saw him sitting there. Went to the store. Came back.

He's still sitting there. Yeah. So maybe he's dead. Yeah. But Tammy appeared distressed. She asked what was wrong, and Tammy responded that she found Alan dead that morning. This is an hour and a half before the call. Oh, my God.

So that's crazy. That one's bad. Then a neighbor, Jennifer Melton, gets a knock on her door around 7 a.m. It's super fucking laugh. super early, so she's got to, like, get her shit together. By the time she gets to the front door, whoever knocked is gone. So she looks out her back window and sees Tammy in her yard tying up her dogs. This is a little after 7 a.m.

Tying up her dogs. Who are now sniffing this poor man's corpse. Yeah. In an hour from now, there's going to be men here. This is wild. Then at about 7.30 a.m., Gary Ruddle, as we know, her boyfriend, friend there. Gary receives a phone call from Tammy. And Tammy had told him that Alan was outside and unconscious. That's what he said. So this is all these different stories. So someone said that she knew

he was dead well before 7 a.m. Right. Then she's stopping at neighbor's houses, tying up dogs, calling her boyfriend, doing all this different shit. And then, which is very odd. So Tamis, By the way, she's going to get talked to a whole bunch of times by the cops. And she is in a position where she can't just say, fuck you, I need a lawyer. She has to act super cooperative. Yeah, because she didn't do it. She had nothing to do it. She didn't do it.

She didn't do it. It's all an accident. Yeah. And she needs the insurance money to be released, too. So over the course of this, she has slightly different versions every time, too, which that happens. There's minor inconsistencies of people fuck up a detail or something. So they said to her, it's also the fact that you did. did not walk in the door at 804 and call 911.

You were doing something in that house for 14 minutes before you called 911. That's when she came home. And we have an eyewitness that puts you there an hour before you called 911, tying up the dogs in the backyard. So they're like, what up with that? Yeah. What the hell, lady? Now, her excuse for this is, well, yeah, I might have made a few other calls before I called 911. And they go, why?

And she goes, well, you know, my memory's not so good. So I don't really remember that morning so well. But she said, it's got to be shock. It's got to be the shock of finding my husband's body. I just, I went into such shock from it. I couldn't call 911 for an hour. But I could go to the store and call my boyfriend. That I could figure out.

Easy. You know, the shock makes you do weird things. You don't want to call. Yeah, when you're in shock, I'll just sit there on the phone going, yes, 911. Yes, 911. Yes, 911? 911? 9-1-1? Just back and forth, yeah.

9-1-1. I had to wait for an hour. So, yeah, you know, I didn't want to be frustrated. Got to let that wear off. She also tells this cop that she one time found a bottle of 90 pills hidden with her husband's belongings and confronted him about it. And she said her husband told him that his cousin gave him the pills. So that is, I'm assumed to say that it's the. flexeril probably, because she's the, that's who they're saying, gave him the pills. Also, during the same interview, she said she called 911 immediately after arriving home in the morning.

And that's where they were like, well, not really. You didn't, though. Yeah. And she said, well, it was shortly after that. And then they challenged her story and show phone records that she called a friend at 7.50 from her home phone and didn't call 911 until 14 minutes later and said, what were you doing during that 14 minutes and said, look at all these other phone calls you made. You were home for 14 minutes from the first time you called Rhonda to when you called 911. And you also called your boyfriend Gary in that 14 minutes.

And she just said, I don't know. I just don't know. What about an hour and a half ago? You already knew that he was dead. Yeah. No. Nope. And then she said, well, I probably panicked and just tried to calm myself down.

and that's I called people that would help calm me down. Call them as 911 is there. You can call them all you want. As the medics work on him, that's fine. So they push her a little more, and she said, well, okay, and she started crying. And she said, you're going to think I'm a horrible person. You're going to think I'm a horrible person? And they go, try us.

Yeah, give us a run. See if you can make it so we think you're worse than we think you are now. Yeah. Let's see if we can get there. And she said, okay, he showed up intoxicated. He was shit-faced, man. Just showed up, wrecked. He said that he just wasn't willing to live if he couldn't move back home and have free rain and do the things he wanted to do.

I need free rain. He said that Alan then went to his truck and brought in a container of liquid with an eyedropper and was drinking whiskey. Okay. So he's got liquid with an eyedropper. Now, she's a nurse. She would know what it was. And said that she, he put, quote, a couple droppers full of the liquid in his mouth. Oh, he's just dropping droppers like a bird feeder.

Boop, boop, yeah. Yeah. While he's hammering whiskey. Yep. Like it's some sort of like a vitamin C supplement or something he's taken. It's a wild syrup that he's making. So she suggested that they said, well, how would he get some weird liquid? I don't understand how he would do this.

And they said, well, a guy I used to work with named Jamie at a nursing home, he might have been the source of these drugs. That's the guy. She said after she found Allen dead, she said she threw everything away. This is what I didn't want to tell you, but I didn't want to make him look bad. So I just threw everything away. Oh, she threw away the eyedropper. Got rid of all of his drugs and got rid of everything. And she said the pill bottle and bottle of liquid were both empty, by the way.

So she was just getting rid of the bottles. She told the cop that she just felt awful about it. And, you know, she couldn't help it. She also said she cleaned up the foam that had come out of his mouth, too. Oh, my God. She just gave him a little deal, cleaned him up, washed down the scene, you know, just didn't want to make him look bad. Wow. That's not a good story, by the way.

It was a terrible story. I cleaned up the body. It's not good. Yeah, and well, it's especially bad because during a conversation with Alan's ex-wife, Tammy initially said Alan hadn't been drinking at all, but later mentioned during the course of the evening that he consumed a beer and a shot. And then when she spoke to one of the children, Tammy said Alan had been pounding tequila the entire night. So went from not drinking at all, had one shot and one beer, a shitload of tequila, a bunch of whiskey is another story, or two Long Island iced teas is another story. It's one of those. What did he drink?

Yeah. 0.436, all of that. It has to be. So that's when during this investigation, shit takes a bit of a different turn. Because they're like, okay, we have a lot of kind of circumstantial shit, and she looks bad and all this. and her story is fucking terrible, but we don't really have, you know, anything to really go on.

Then an old boyfriend comes back to haunt her. Nice. Yes. This is Stephen Brown, Tammy's former boyfriend, and a statement from him, they discover a statement that he gave to a Farm Bureau insurance investigator in connection with a completely separate matter

that had nothing to do with Alan. The FBI, the Farm Bureau. Bureau insurance? Yes, Farm Bureau Insurance. I'm with the FBI, ma'am, I'm investigating something. No, the Farm Bureau Insurance. FBI. So, Tammy had accused

this Stephen Brown of stealing her property, which he denied, and I think they found later that he didn't at all. But over the course of this interview, Stephen Brown dropped a detail on them, saying, which didn't matter at the time, because it wasn't

germane to the stealing at the time. So No one ever followed up on it. It just sat there in a report for a later homicide investigator to find. He said that Thanksgiving 2004, this is right before she met and married Alan. Yeah, three years. Yeah. Tammy arrived at his house with food. She had a pudding that she insisted he eat.

Yeah. It's my famous dirt pudding. Famous. She said, my daughter made it especially for you. Don't be disrespectful of my. my daughter who went out of her way to make you a nice pudding. He said he took a few bites, but he said it tasted, quote, like aspirin dissolving. And then he felt, and then he felt, quote, very out of it for several hours.

This is after just a couple of bites. Yeah. Okay. Then Tammy, after that she had given him the pudding, pulled out a life insurance policy application. Yeah. Yeah. She said she needed his information, his social security, his signature with her as his beneficiary. Sign it now.

You know, before you die from what I gave you. Yeah. Before my dump pie kills you. He said no, refused, wouldn't sign it. So she got mad and left. And he said that she left. When she left, she took the bowl and plate with her that he used. She took the whole thing.

She took his bowl and plate with her. Wow. So it couldn't be found. Wow. That's wild. Okay. So both of these meals included the same one thing. Yeah. That dirt pudding, her specialty. That's shit-ass pie. Yeah. That pudding is her specialty. Then they find out about missing drugs from her job. Oh, morphine missing from her job. What did he die of? Morphine over. No, they're just finding out about that now. Oh, they didn't press charges or anything because they had no proof that, Tammy.

stole it. So they just, she just left there and they just all called it. And they looked like assholes for leaving it out. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So they just said, well, let that go. And now it comes back. And they said, as a certified nurse's aide, Tammy was not permitted authorized access to patient drugs. So it had to have been a theft. They said that Rose will testify later in a hearing that Tammy was working with him, Charlie Rose, on March 2nd, 2007, in a particular ward that, that housed a hospice patient who had been prescribed roxanol. Yeah. Help this person die, basically.

Another nurse's aide, Rita Bell, had been on duty with Charles and Tammy. Charles went for lunch with Rita and left Tammy alone on the floor to serve lunches to the bedridden patients. Gee, thanks, guys. Yeah, good looking out. Gee, maybe bring me back something at least. You guys are having a, wow, that sucks. Now, Bell had seen a bottle of renoxanol on the patient's table, but did not pick it up because she wasn't in charge of the medicine cart that day.

Okay. That would have been, she's not supposed to touch that. So when Charles asked Tammy if she knew what happened to it, Tammy flatly denied taking it and blamed the missing drugs on the relative that we talked about. According to Charlie Rose, he, quote, kind of knew better because the daughter was a teacher that never visited during the daytime, but had no proof so he had to let it drop. Then they find out about all of the things. about the financial strains, all the, all the relatives are coming in talking about, you know, he'd recently signed a mortgage insurance on the property and all that kind of thing. Now, we find out, then the cops are like, so he signed mortgage insurance.

Let's find that policy. Then they find out what he really signed, which is a $100,000 life insurance policy, naming Tammy as the sole beneficiary. Yeah. As well. And obviously, Gary Ruddle was writing the policy. And she told her friend Rhonda Brown that if Alan talks to you, make sure that he doesn't find out he signed a life insurance policy. Make sure he thinks it's mortgage insurance.

Make sure that. Yep. She showed Rhonda after that. She said, make sure he thinks it's life insurance or make sure he thinks it's mortgage insurance. Then she whipped out some small round yellow pills. Which, by the way, that's how flexor will come, small yellow pills. And asked her, quote, if he took the whole bottle, would he die? Okay.

Now, Rhonda said she didn't believe anyone was actually going to do that. She thought Tammy was just being funny. You know what I mean? Tammy's being Tammy. She has a personality. Legitimate question. Better asking you than Google. Exactly.

What do you think here? She said she should have called someone right then, Rhonda said, but she didn't because she didn't think anything of it. Okay. Then they talked to Dennis Thomas, a motorist's life insurance investigator, and he received Tammy's claim on the $100,000 policy and signed investigator Dennis Thomas to look into the circumstances of the death. He interviewed Tammy multiple times as well. Uh-oh. So she's being interviewed by two sets of investigators here. All over the place, yeah.

But he just takes his findings and shares them with the police. So everything he gets, they get too. Yeah. Yeah. So she is under a lot of pressure. Every time she was interviewed, she had to try to maintain a story. And to keep your story straight, what did I tell this one as opposed to that one and all that? It doesn't work very well.

Tammy starts to kind of break down a little bit. Well, they tend to ask you specifics. And if that specific changes, because you forgot, that's on you. Yeah, they tend to ask you specifics. And if you don't answer, they tend to go back to that one question. What did you say? You can't, yeah, can't bullshit your way out of it. So then Tammy said, or they talked to Gary Ruttall, and he said, I only sold her the insurance policy.

I had no idea beyond, you know, that she had any intentions to do anything with it like that. He said, also, I haven't been in contact with her since that time period. He said, oh, never mind. when she started being investigated. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure the investigators probably told him, dude. Stay away from this lady.

She's dangerous. Then Tammy's dad, Lowell Smith, said he recalled Tammy telling him Alan had foam coming from his mouth when she found him dead and that she had wiped it away. Okay. So here is their theory. Sometime between 1 a.m. and 6 a.m. while he was sleeping. He's asleep in his chair, unconscious, having too much morphine, flexural, and alcohol.

They said his breathing slows. And according to the theory, while he was incapacitated, they believe Tammy may have administered additional morphine directly. Oh, God. She might have dropped more in. That would explain why his blood concentration was so insanely high.

They don't think he would have been able to get all that in him, basically, before being out. So they said it has to be, they think that Tammy must have given him more later. Like she probably came outside, looked at him and said, fuck, he's still breathing. The chest is moving. Drop, drop, drop, drop, drop, drop. Okay, see how that does, type of thing. So the insurance situation had really been the initial red flags here.

Allen's family suspicions, even Tammy's family suspicions. Yeah. Her rushing to get cremated, wanting to skip the autopsy, everything. One of the cops said, I was suspicious of it at the start. He was in too good of health and all of that shit. And in her own story, it kept shifting just to go over her lies. When she called 911, she said, I found him and I immediately called. We find out she called several other people first.

First, not only that, she was in a store in town before 7 a.m., already telling people Alan was dead. Boyfriend Gary gets a call at 7.30 a.m. saying Alan was unconscious. The 911 call came in at 804, and when confronted with this, she said she was in shock. To the 911 operator, Tammy said that he's a heavy drinker, implying alcohol was to blame. To Alan's former girlfriend, he said he hadn't been drinking at all. Then said he had one beer in one shot.

Then to her son, saying he'd been drinking tequila all night. They'd been drinking tequila together all night. then later on, at least two Long Island ice teas, and then at one point, whiskey and morphine. Right. All of those. Initially, she had no idea where the drugs came from. Then she said Alan must have had a secret drug life she didn't know about. Had to.

Then, in another time, she described seeing Alan produce an eyedropper bottle with a lavender liquid, consistent with Roxanol. Then Alan had gotten flexeril from his cousin Zyla. then she said she cleaned up the pill bottles to protect his reputation. Right. You know. And then she comes up with an even crazier one. Here we go. He committed suicide.

Yeah. Yeah, I could see it. It's suicide. It's suicide. I mean, I don't know. It's not her job to come up with the reason or the how he died. It's just give. That's their job.

Let them do it. That's exactly. But it's clearly either murder or suicide because there's no other answer. Yeah. He had to have done. The dogs didn't do it. Right. So her thing is he must have committed suicide.

Then on the insurance policy, to the investigators, Alan had initiated the policy himself. To her friend Rhonda said, don't tell him. It's life insurance. And to Alan, she told him it's mortgage insurance. So she lied to everybody there. It's a mess. She believes, though, her final story, this is my final answer, and I'm sticking to it, is that he accidentally drank himself to death. That's what she said was her final story then.

She changed that. And according to her, he drank the medication and swallowed the pills because he wasn't willing to live if he couldn't move back home and have free reign to do the things he wanted to do, like we said before. And she said he hides stuff and he had to have hidden shit, you know, from her. has a secret double life with all sorts of stuff, all sorts of drugs. And they said that the cousin admitted that she had left medications, including flexeral, out in plain view at her house and that she recently had a block party attended by Alan and Tammy. However, those who knew Alan, including Zyla, the cousins, insisted Alan was opposed to ingesting drugs. Okay.

And additionally, Tammy said on the night before Alan's death, she'd seen him with an eyedropper filled with the lavender color liquid and all that here. The problem is here, they said that this roxanol is a liquid form of morphine prescribed to hospice patients. It's not a street drug. Right. This isn't something readily available. You just get that and then be addicted to that. And police officers later on will testify that neither Roxanol nor flexero is a drug typically abused and available for street purchase in 2007 anyway.

They said evidence showed that Tamysiol, me had been in the proximity of both drugs shortly before Alan's death. Now, flexoril I've heard people taken. That's muscle relaxers. This rocks and all shit. That's crazy. I've never heard of it before. I imagine it's amazing and right on par with Dilaudit.

Something like that, yeah. So she said, I want you to know I am not this horrible person. I did not murder my husband, she tells the police. Fair enough. But, fair enough. But on August 6th, 2010, she's arrested for murdering her husband. husband. Ah, shit. So that's not good. Murder, six counts of insurance fraud. Six.

And three counts of obstruction of justice. And that is for her saying she threw out the pills and wiped the foam from his mouth. That's obstruction of justice. Oh, shit. Yes, telling her dad she wiped the foam from the mouth. So in her initial appearance in court, this is the balls this lady has. Okay. She asked if she could be. set if she could be released from her jail so she could return to the job she loves at a Louisville Children's Hospital. Yes, you may. Huh? Yes, murder suspect. Let's go hang out around children more. That's where we want for our murder suspects. You want to go volunteer?

We get it. No, no, her job. She loves it. Yeah. It's very important to her. Very important to the community. Yeah. Yeah, that you go dick around, around kids.

The judge said, no, first of all, no, and then said that you're going to need an attorney to file a motion for a special hearing before I could even consider Bond. And she said she couldn't afford an attorney and could she have a public defender. They said, have you looked for an attorney? And she said her boyfriend has made calls on her behalf, which Gary said he hasn't talked to her since the incident. So who is this boyfriend that she found? now. We don't know. I'm terrified to know. She said that they're asking for 30 to 50,000 to retain their services.

That's a high-powered one. That's a decent lawyer. And she said, I don't have that kind of money. There was a lawsuit with the insurance company that had gone on before this where she and the company reached a $40,000 settlement. So they ended up giving her $40,000. Instead of the $300,000? $100,000.

$100,000. And they gave her 40,000, but they said that 40,000 is going to go against your lawyer fee. So there's a- Oh, so there's a-toe, but just to a lawyer. Yeah, there's a cap on the public defender of 25 grand. So at least 25 grand of that is coming to your lawyer, basically, or at most 25 grand of it. So April 11, or April 2011 is the trial. Yeah. Now, one of the main things they're fighting about in pretrial, this is one of those cases where there's a lot.

up in the air because they don't have proof she had morphine. So this is a lot of circumstantial evidence. And the way the trial goes down is everything. If you've seen anything on the Corey Richon stuff, that was their whole approach is we don't have any proof of this of her doing this. But there was two adults in the house. He ended up with too much of this in his system. And we don't think he did it to himself. So by process of elimination had to have been you. And we have a text messages from one person in the house trying to procure the shit that he died from. Asking for the Michael Jackson stuff. So anyway, this shit, it's a very similar thing, though, very circumstantial.

And it's just based on process of elimination. Yeah. Couldn't have been anybody else, had to have been her. Sure. So the main thing they're going to fight about is Stephen Brown. Okay. Yeah. The ex-boyfriend who said she tried to poison him on Thanksgiving or near Thanksgiving with

the aspirin taste and hour. of feeling out of it and being almost being forced to sign insurance papers and how she left with the bowl and plate. In the weakest and worst pie on the planet. Yeah, terrible, awful pie. It's not cooking. Stop it. So, one of the big deals here is whether Stevens' testimony about this could be admitted

into trial. Because this is a big, I mean, this is a knockout blow. It involved Indiana Evidence Rule 404B, which, you've heard a lot of if you ever watch a trial, which generally prohibits using evidence of prior bad acts to show a defendant has a propensity for crime. Okay, it's the prior bad acts thing. Now, before trial, Tammy's attorneys successfully argue that Stephen Brown's testimony should be included unless the defense opens the door. And that's always the exception to this. The prosecution can't bring shit up, but if you open the door on something to try to say she's a good

person, you try to open some character door, you're getting blasted with this. And that's how it works here. And the prosecution agreed and that was fine. So he's not allowed to testify. All right. Okay. Prosecution's opening. They have a timeline and they'll do it for about an hour, the whole timeline and detail Alan and Tammy's relationship, financial records, employment history. He portrayed Tammy as financially irresponsible and dishonest. They alleged that Tammy, had, quote, hid $25,000 from her creditors in Alan DeVall's personal checking account so that she could file for bankruptcy and have a $55,000 debt erased. Okay. So that's all, you know, shady shit.

That's one of the counts that she's up for. They also pointed out that 17 months after the bankruptcy erased her debt, she had accumulated $170,000 in new debt by purchasing houses. vehicles, clothes, shit like that. $170,000. Yeah. The Duvalls are frequently laid on their loan payments. Their house is being foreclosed on. And the house was being foreclosed on before Tammy paid up five months of delinquent mortgage payments after she got the insurance settlement.

Uh-huh. They said by the time Tammy purchased insurance on Alan Duval's life, she was facing a major financial crisis. And then they played clips of interviews of, uh, of, uh, police and insurance investigators conducted with Tammy and showed her in her own, you know, glory here. They played audio of clips interviews by that. They said that he said proving the insurance fraud and obstruction of justice charges were the easy part because Tammy's caught on tape lying to an insurance investigator and confessing to cleaning Alan Deval's body in the area around him when she found him dead. They said Tammy concealed and misrepresented her insurance claim history and her level of participation in ensuring Allen's life. They said, quote, she tangled herself up in her web of deceit.

I love when prosecutors try to turn phrases and it's just kind of falls flat like that. It's a real black widow, James. She tangled herself up in her web of deceit. Oh, boy. You know how that web goes. It's tangled. Telling, they said, telling lies that she. ever evolved that evolved as the investigators got more evidence. Her lies would just kind of go around what that evidence was. They said Tammy concealed and misrepresented all this shit and tangled

herself and she's doing everything. They also said that Tammy did not show this is in court this day. They show a picture of Allen slumped over dead in the chair and his cousin started crying, but Tammy showed no reaction in court. Oh. Then later in the argument, she began crying when the prosecutor played an audio clip of her explaining that she saw Alan take the drugs that killed him. That's the part I got to cry at. That's my emotional part. Her attorney gave her tissues.

Oh, you poor thing. The defense opening was this. It's a suicide, period. It's got to be. Suicide, it's a suicide, period. They argued that Alan had taken the drugs himself. He was devastated about the state of his marriage. and he told Tammy that he didn't just couldn't live if he couldn't move back home

and that the morphine and flexerol were his and that Tammy was an innocent woman, just innocent. And he's got to feel so bad if his suicide locks her up forever. This is, he would feel, do you want to hurt this man even more? The man's dead for Christ's sake. Let him rest. He's been through enough. The man hasn't been able to digest a decent meal in six weeks. Six weeks. So they said an eyedropper full of morphine is the thing he had when he died.

And the delay was just Tammy finding him dead and, quote, freaking out. Right. That's all it is. For a long time. It didn't matter. They said the state has no proof that Tammy stole a bottle of morphine from Miller's Mary Manor, which is such a weird place for something that has hospice care, by the way. A Mary Manor?

I know. Miller's Mary Manor sounds like. something at six flags. It sounds like the whole ass six flags. Yeah, this is Miller's Mary Manor. It does not sound like back there is the hospice care. Yeah, right past the Snack Shack is the hospice care. Six Flags over Miller's Mary Manor.

Yeah, it's so weird. Now, her lawyer acknowledged that, yeah, Tammy might be financially stupid. Sure. Yeah, she is. That's a thing. And, yeah, you know, Alan. motives in marrying Tammy was also questionable. He said that they then are now accusing him of having violent behavior toward her.

He also questioned police interview techniques in which a detective misled and exaggerated the case against Tammy to get favorable testimony from other witnesses. That does suck, but it's also legal. That's the problem. They said the cases against Tammy come down to one word. sure. That's what the defense attorney said, sure. That's it. That's it. Yeah. They when asked about during her interview, whether she would take a polygraph, Tammy said, sure, without hesitation. They said she had nothing to hide, but the authorities never followed through on their offer of the exam. I think because it was an academic at that point, they had, they's had her lying six different ways. So what does it

matter. And maybe they asked and didn't have the machine. It's 50,000 people here. Maybe they're waiting for them come up. They could have gone to Louisville or Indianapolis or something. If you can go to Indianapolis for a drink, you can certainly go for a polygraph. I would hope. Her lawyer said that Tammy also did not hesitate when asked questions that when asked questions he had evidence to prove she was lying. As an example, he said, Tammy told a police detective that the bank had never foreclosed on her home, but he had court documents to show that in his hand. They said that Tammy is a good liar until all her stories are compared. This is the prosecution and rebuttal here. And so that's that. Now, in opening statements still here, it's all suicide and, you know, that's it.

Now, the problem is when they do this, they describe the defense attorney argues that Allen had committed suicide describing a specific scenario in which Alan brought his own drugs to the house and told Tammy he didn't want to live and self-administered the lethal dose. Now, somehow the prosecution immediately argued that this opened the door to the prior poisoning evidence. Oh. And to show that Tammy's intent was murderous, not that Alan died on his own. So they said, you should bring in that other, that Stephen Brown testimony about the Thanksgiving shit. Right. And the trial court said, okay, you're right.

And now this guy's going to testify too. Oh, boy. Which is terrible for her. Terrible. To have somebody explain the exact scenario, again, is terrible for her. Not good. The only thing their lawyer can say in cross-examination is, so you didn't die that night, right? No.

That's your witness. That's all I had to see. He's alive still, so it's not the same. There's the old bumper sticker that goes, but did you die? Yeah, that's what they'd eat. That's exactly what it is. Did you die? Did you die?

So the medical examiner, they question whether something other than the pudding could have killed her, could have killed him. I mean, it would have been in anything else? Even if it doesn't have drugs in it, it's certainly going to make me throw out. Certainly sounds gross. So he told the medical examiner told the attorney that. that the stomach contents were not tested to determine what they were or weren't, or to determine what they were, whether or whether they contained any kind of illicit drug found in his system.

So they, because there was no mystery to that, didn't matter. So they also testify that nothing indicated whether the morphine or muscle relaxants were in the food or how they were administered to Allen or whether someone else had administered to them. Can you test the stomach contents for the drugs? No. No, and this is the same problem. You could test to see if there were still drugs in his stomach if they take pills or something because that's in the Cory Richens case.

We're going to find that. And that's what we find out kind of from that in that Cory Richens case is that's what the defense keeps bringing up is, well, do you have any, do you know how he took the drug? And they were like, no, we don't know. It just had to have been in something he ate if he didn't take it voluntarily. And, you know, and then they put the circumstantial stuff together and you end up with that. It would be nice to find out if he took it on purpose, but... No way to know. Doesn't seem like he did.

No. So the tests on Allen's blood and urine samples also don't indicate whether the morphine was roxanol, which is the brand that disappeared from the nursing home. So they don't know that. Or if it was just morphine, any kind of whatever, generic, whatever. Okay. Even though it was, you know, five months before he died. So Tammy, remember Tammy suggesting that Alan took the morphine that killed him and that possibly Jamie Payne, a nurse they knew, gave it to him. So she had a source.

Well, they definitely bring in Jamie Payne to testify. Oh, yeah. And he said, well, I've only met Alan once for a brief moment when he was with Tammy at the nursing home where I worked with Tammy. Yeah. So he definitely wasn't his drug connect. And he said that also, I'm a drug addict personally, he said. But I never gave Tammy any other drugs other than a couple of diet pills one time. Okay.

So that's it. I didn't give her any morphine. I don't know shit about shit. Then Tammy's son testifies. Uh-oh. This is Jansen Engelman. He testifies that his mother seemed calm when she called. called to tell him about Alan's death, but that he could tell from her voice that she was upset.

Okay. He said she said she thought he died of a heart attack. He said his mother never told him about buying a life insurance policy for Alan, but he'd heard from his younger sister that she had talked about it with her. He said, it seemed odd. I knew they were separated at the time, so it seemed odd that that would happen. Then they bring in Rhonda Brown. Rhonda said she had brought over some pills in an unmarked bottle

and she said, do you think if a person took enough of these pills it would kill them? And I'm like, why are you planning on killing somebody? And she said, you know, you just don't believe anybody's going to actually do that, you know? Yeah. Yeah, no.

They bring in Charles Rose here. He's the nurse who left the bottle out. And he said that, you know, he knew that her ex-examined. explanation was false, but he had no evidence to try to bust her on it, basically. And like you said, probably was embarrassed about it to begin with. I don't know if he's testified to that, but that's got to be a fact. Zyla Thompson saying that Alan never, to her knowledge, had taken any prescription drugs

and that the bottle was basically, you know, half empty of this giant flexorol bottle after Tammy was there. Then there's Jennifer Melton, the neighbor who said she saw Tammy in the backyard at 7 a.m., tying up her dogs. It's not good at all. Not good at all. They said Tammy sat quietly writing on a notepad. They said Jennifer Melton, who works with Tammy at a nursing home and was her friend, testified that Tammy was calm and giggling while talking on the phone the same day that Alan's body was discovered. That's bad.

Giggly. Gigily. Gigly. Just t-he-he-he-he. This Melton said that, well, When she stopped by Tammy Duvall's house that day, she already had insurance papers out on her table and said she was going to have her husband cremated because it was the least expensive option. That's fucked. Wow. She said her attitude that morning of was not like someone who just lost her husband.

If I lost my husband, I'd be crazy. She wasn't even crying. No, she's bereaved. She's not a sap. No. I'm not some, what do I look like a schmuck over here? So they talked to the convenience store clerk who talked to her that morning and told her that her husband was dead. Saying that she knew already.

They talked to Gary, Tammy's boyfriend and insurance agent. That's important. Testified that Tammy immediately tried to collect the policy despite his advice to wait. He said, don't try to collect it right now. It's going to look terrible. You just got it a month ago. going to get the money and you're going to look suspicious. Don't do it. Yeah. And so he also testified about the phone call at 7.30 a.m. He's not charged with any crime, although the defense tries to

paint him as maybe he had something to do with this. But the investigators likely determined that he likely didn't know shit about what was going on. Okay. Whatsoever. Allen's family, multiple cousins, family members all testifies to Allen's character, his opposition to drugs, his general happiness of spirit and being. Just a pleasant demeanor. Yeah, his hope for a reconciliation with Tammy, everything. They also testified that Alan had in one or more of his more prescient moments, they said, told people, if I die, make sure it's investigated. He told them, like, individually, if I die, make sure it's investigated.

That's a witness quote right there. All right. The defense case, okay, all you can do is it's, you know, can't say it's self-defense. No, you got to say it was a suicide. We didn't have anything to do with this. So they call Dr. John Pless, a forensic pathologist hired by the state to review autopsy results. He will say that he believed that Alan died of a morphine overdose and that there was no way to tell who administered it. he said the drugs found in his system could have been used throughout the day that he died

and that he thinks that the morphine and muscle relaxants were administered first, then Alan ingested the alcohol. Yeah. So he took in a hundred times a therapeutic dose of morphine and then said, I need a drink. I am so thirsty. Imagine, okay. Remember on the wire? Let's go back to that.

Do you remember, after bubbles shoot? up. What does he do? What does he do? He sits there and does what? Drules and fucking nods. And that's like stepped on street shit. This is pure pharmaceutical

hospice quality fucking morphine. This guy's going to die anyway. Just make it not hurt. That's what you're getting. Fucking pure. Pure is the driven snow. So that's what we're talking about here.

I mean, this is a totally different thing. Hospice quality. That's what I want my plug to say when I call them for anything. Yeah, when I want my drug dealer to go, this is hospice quality shit right here. You want hospice quality? That's what I got. It'll distract the dying. So how the fuck would they ingest all of that?

Like 50 times a bubbles dose. And then he'd be like, I need a drink. It's got to be. It's got to be. This amazing recipe of three ingredients, right? You know, this is wild. There's actually six. Yeah, there is six.

So they said that the manner of his death, in his opinion, was homicide due to the level of morphine found. He said no one can give themselves that much. No way. He said he'd never seen a level of morphine that high in a dead body ever. Yeah, 600 times the pharmaceutical dose. So in closing, the defense tells the jurors that he doesn't think the state proved that Tammy killed her husband. He doesn't think so. Just doesn't think they proved it.

He said this whole case is speculation. Wow. Speculation. He said that the state provided a lot of evidence. True. True. But they left enough room for plenty of reasonable doubt. It's enough for error.

And that error is a reasonable doubt. And you must. quit her. And then he does, this is like when someone like steals a song but changes it just enough. Yeah. This is one of those things. He's heard that every prosecutor, every defense attorney used this particular analogy. And he's going to take it, steal it, but twist it just a little bit so he doesn't sound like such a hack. Nice, nice, baby. He compared, yep, he could dun dun dun dun And it goes, D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D.

He compared the state's case to putting together a child's toy. Not a puzzle. Every other person is that. It's like a puzzle. Sure, there might be a few pieces missing, but you see the picture. That's what every attorney says. And then, you know, the defense attorney will say, you know, pieces missing.

How is this like a child's toy? I'm riveted. He said, this is like putting together a child's toy. It has hundreds of pieces and instructional steps, but it just doesn't come together right. Don't let your kids play with this shit you build them, sir. What are you talking about? He's like, I don't want to use that tired puzzle one that everybody uses.

That's just, it's just tired. What if I... I want to talk about the time that I built a tricycle out of my kids' four-wheeled car. That poor kid, we had another one after the funeral. You know, we rebuilt our lives. You know, we didn't want to let a car. go. Yeah, we named him Charlie too. Yeah, that's how we did it. But what kids' toys besides Legos have hundreds of pieces, by the way? Not hundreds. No, it's usually very simple.

I'll tell you what, if I bought my kids a toy like Christmas time and it had hundreds of pieces, I would hurl it through the store's front fucking window. I'd send it right the fuck back to Amazon, which is right for a Christmas morning starts. Yeah, fuck that. He said that if Tammy was smart enough, to orchestrate the murder by stealing a bottle of morphine five months in advance, buying an insurance policy and convincing her husband to not only sign it, but then eat poison food. Don't you think she would have had a better escape plan? That's the other thing I love.

No. Don't you think this murderer would be less stupid is a terrible defense. Other point is he just painted how fucking easy it was and how diabolical she is. She's had five months planning this and she didn't give herself an out because she thought this was good. That's what it is. And they said, don't you think that if she was that smart to plan it that long that she'd have a better escape plan? Her escape plan was cremation that day. Yeah.

That was the escape plan. She thought she got away with it. That's it. As soon as cremation wasn't happening that day, that's her escape plan. The whole thing's fucked. She had one escape plan. She had plan A. Plan B.

Fuck, plan B. And they said, obviously, there's no proof she stole it. So what are you going to do? Fuck yourselves. That's what they said. I don't know. So during sentencing or during a verdict here comes in that sentencing, the jury is seven women and five men. Okay, six hours of deliberation.

They're talking about it. Seven women may have reasons why they would want to kill somebody. Yeah, I could see it, you know, one of those where they go. I'm not saying I'm not saying she didn't, but maybe not. After six hours, they find him guilty of murder. Yeah. And six counts of insurance fraud and three counts of obstruction of justice. Everything.

Everything. Everything they put out there. Guilty, guilty, guilty. During sentencing, the prosecutor said, quote, she is a stone cold killer, plain and simple. She killed her husband, a person who I feel truly loved her, and all she she could see was $100,000 stamped on his forehead. That's it. Big stamp.

Bad bitch. The defense attorney argued that Tammy, she has almost no criminal history. So, I mean, she had a theft conviction more than 20 years ago. Who cares? And she has maintained employment for a long time. Besides that time, she had to leave that job because there was fucking morphine missing. But besides that, she's very well employed. and she's been a productive member of society for most of her adult life.

Wow. Okay. So Tammy also tells the judge that she is dissatisfied with her legal representation because her public defender did not call some of the witnesses or present some of the evidence she suggested. So the fuck what? You're not even an RN. No. You're definitely not a lawyer. You're not even an LPN.

Yeah. You didn't even even have. even finish nursing school. No. No. What the fuck are you talking about? See, see, you can't. And whenever you see crazy shit, by the way, going on with a lawyer and you go, why are they

doing it? Like the Corey Richens case, the whole time I was saying, this has to be Corey. This has to be Corey. No lawyer would come up with this as a strategy. This has to be what Corey wants. Otherwise, it makes no sense. What you're saying is you didn't have my green chili chicken enchiladas. I did.

I didn't. I did. That's what you're saying. That's what I'm saying. So that's what I mean. You got that and the other one too. It just makes sense on that, that all of that goes together. So during this hearing, she's not satisfied.

Oh, Sarah Boone. That's what I was in Florida. Yeah, it's another one. Sarah Boone went through. She was on like her eighth lawyer by the time of the trial because none of the lawyers would do what she told them to do. None of them are doing her strategy because it's an idiot. strategy because it's going to fucking get slammed

back in our face. That's right. So then she found some guy to fucking do it. Some Hammondegger who, in my opinion, probably just needed the publicity and doesn't have that thriving of a law practice. Like I said, allegedly,

in my opinion. Bet she's having a good day. He's having a good day. But finally got somebody to fucking do what she wanted him to do. Yeah. So they said that she believed that, you know, that this is,

she's not guilty. That's it. But I, you know, and Tammy also said that she told the judge that she believed that, you know, the police had plotted against her basically, having, you know, telling people things that weren't true to get them to say bad things about her. And the prosecution countered with, they believe she was plotting to defraud the court by having the county pay for a transcript of the trial for her appeal. And that's why she's doing this. That's the only reason. reason why she's saying this so she can get the court to pick transcripts are really expensive. Oh, I'm sure they are. They cost thousands of dollars. So it's trying to get the court to pay for it. And if you don't have money, you don't have right to just have them printed for you.

Transcribed, yeah, that's it's. You have a right to an attorney, but you don't have a right to a transcript, unfortunately. Yeah, you know, that's tough. I don't see that one. It's tough. No, there's certain circumstances where they have to give you it, but not if you're doing it all. The judge found no circumstances that mitigated her sentence. but cited certain aggravating factors, including her character and the nature of the circumstances of the crime. That's great. An aggravating circumstance is your character.

You're such a shitty person. It's literally an aggravator at your murder trial. You're a dick. And he said the murder scene planned well in advance. You, ma'am, may fuck off 60 and one-half years in jail. And a half. And a half. And six months.

55 for murder. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh, four for insurance fraud and a year and a half for obstruction. Wow. Year and a half just for wiping that foam. That's what you get. Got her, fucking 18 months for that.

Earlyest possible release date, December 8th, 2040. Jesus Christ. She'd be 81 at the time. Uh-oh. That's not good. Uh-uh. The reaction, members of Allen's family said they were pissed off by the sentence. It doesn't seem like.

like that much. They said she should have gotten the max on everything. She's a murderer. She plotted everything. Duval's cousin said she's a con artist. Killing Allen was her ultimate con. It's not just not right taking someone's family away like that. Yeah, the husband's saying she's a beguiling and shrewd really starts to.

Right. Beguiling. If she was that beguiling and shrewd, she would have got away with this, I think. But yeah, this is, she could have, I guess the max was 80 years. That would have been the max she could have gotten, which really doesn't make that much of a difference. You know what I mean? Yeah. The only difference it could have made is maybe then she would have been eligible for parole when she was 90, which means she'd be dead, more likely to be dead than when she's 81, I guess.

But you go to prison from like, you know, 50 to fucking 81. You're not going to last that. No. They gave her as many years as they gave her. The earliest is going to be out at 2040. That's still so far away. So long. It's so far away.

Yeah, another 20 years maybe would have added since it's what, 2040. That'd be 40. So it's about two thirds of the sentence. So that would add it another 13 years or some shit to it, which I mean, yeah. Yeah. That guarantees pretty much that she dies and that. But it might be the difference. Maybe she'll get out and she'll have to have a CNA take care of her for the rest of her life.

Yeah. Wipe her ass and hopefully overdose her on something. But this is, I guess that's the difference between maybe parole at 81 and maybe parole at 95. Yeah. Which is so, yeah, they could be right about that. And that's their opinion. They're allowed to have it. So this trial was covered really a lot locally.

The Republic newspaper in Columbus. It took over their whole front page for a while there. later featured on oxygen snapped. Any time a woman kills a man, it's on snapped. Period. It's just all it is. Season 17, episode 8, after the verdict. And also different specials, a recipe for murder.

The poison pudding murder. Yeah. I mean, that shit's poison in the first place. I love pudding. Yeah, but not chello, right? Oh, not, what do you mean? Jello or Jello pudding? Not Jello pudding.

Jello brand pudding. Yeah, that shit's disgusting. I think it's great. Do you? I love it. Yeah. Really? Not the instant.

Yeah, that's not the instant pudding. It's just start it up and throw it. That's disgusting. One bite, throw that shit right in the garbage. In a cup? In a cup? I'll pour that in your asshole and eat it out, Jen. Yeah, no, no.

Yeah. I was like, are you crazy? Pudding cups, especially the mix with the vanilla and the chocolate together. Are you kidding? Not only that. The caramel. Cook and serve. The cook and serve is my favorite thing in the world because that has the pudding skin on it.

And I am a huge fan of pudding skin. I make the cook and serve and I'll make two packages. And then I got to go on all my cabinets looking for the like looking for things that are like flat. So I makes the most pudding skin. I don't want I don't want tall and deep. I want short and wide. I don't care. So I love it.

I don't care. Who knows it? Jimmy. I'm not embarrassed. How do you do it? Is it like a chicken skin? I mix it in. I mix it in with the pudding.

That way every once in a while I get this little chunk of pudding. Oh, okay. It's really good. I thought you were like peeling it like a, like a scat. I'm eating all the whole pudding. No, no, no. So I have all of these containers out all over my counter and there's like boiled pudding everywhere all over my countertops and floor. And then I have to take all of our good food out of the fridge and fill that with all these containers of pudding.

And then I eat like seven. I love them in one night and I get myself super sick. You're a monster. I'm a monster. That's what happens when you smoke a bunch of weed and it's 2 a.m. and you have too much pudding in your cabinets. They start hot and pudding in the cabinets. Like, fuck.

I got to eat that pudding. And then I have to wait for it. So I have to like go in there and feel it as it's still warm. No, I want to wait for it to get cold. Very impatient. I do. Fucking Jesus, I'm stone. Well, I'll smoke more and then I'll come back and I'll have more pudding skin.

God, I got a deal. It's been a while since I've had any of that. So she goes to prison. DOC number is 215-966. She's in the Rockville Correctional Facility in Indiana. And we'll talk about her appeals in a second here. Oh, boy. A few similar cases, because this is a very common thing that goes on.

Poison? Very common. Yeah, poison of a, I made you this and it's poison type of shit. That's crazy. But you know what? It shows planning. Like if a man was trying to poison you, they'd grab you in a headlock and go,

you fucking put your fucking mouth right now, and they try to like stuff it into your face. You eat that fucking poison. That's how they poison you. We don't make desserts. We make like cheeseburgers and steaks. You're going to put some fucking poison on a cheeseburger? I will not ruin my cheeseburger.

If you show up with a pudding recipe, someone's suspicious. Somebody's got us a question. Jimmy doesn't make pudding. Did you crumble cookie on that? I don't believe it for a second. Not buying it. It's asphalt, isn't it?

No fucking way. Yeah, what is that? What'd you put on there? Is that ashes? Is that cigarette ashes? What are you doing? So much so, you know what? My daughter just had a volleyball thing, and we made cupcakes and took them to the girls,

and I just dropped her off with the girls. And then the girls were like, where'd these come from? And Presto was like, my dad and I made them. They didn't eat a single fucking cupcake. You don't look like a reliable cupcake source, apparently. He's saying that bald guy with the beard made him. Fuck that. Nobody's eating.

There's at least beard hair in here somewhere. Never mind. They're not eating it. I go, I go press out with the cupcakes. And she goes, oh, we threw them all away. I was like, all of them? She goes, nobody ate any of them. I'm like, why not you?

And she goes, I didn't want one. I was like, what the fuck? I eat your cooking all the time. What the fuck, man. They were delicious. They were fun fatty. I loved them. I ate them.

I had two of them here before I sent them with her. Those are good as fuck. With the little shit inside the big chewy shit. Yeah, not the fucking sprinkles. We get the good ones. It's in there. Yeah, it's in the shit. So that's why men don't usually have this poisoning thing.

And we usually go about it a little more of a violent way. Whereas a lot of times a woman, you know, if they're smaller or they don't have whatever, this is the way they have to go about it. So this is mainly a womanie crime here. Number one, Cory Richens, first of all. I mean, first and four, I mean, this is a very similar case to Cory Richens. Very similar. Minus the food, right?

No, she, well, she put it in a drink. Right. But she had tried to poison him with a sandwich. Oh, several things, yeah. A month and a half before that or on Valentine's Day with a sandwich. Tune into Patreon for more on that. But she had tried to poison him with that shit and then just kept at it. she's like you never give up is what you do there.

Keep making food that tastes shit. He's going to eat one. Yeah, he'll get used to it. He'll just think maybe my taste buds are going wrong here. Maybe it's me. Maybe it's me. There's also Sabrina Lyman, who in California was convicted in 2017. She and her lover, a guy named Jonathan Hearn, who was a firefighter, plotted to kill her husband, Robert Lyman.

they first attempted arsenic poisoning by lacing his favorite banana pudding or up to pudding again. I guess because people think it's real sweet and if you mix it in, you don't see it. So it'll kind of dissolve in there. And you take big fucking plugs of that shit. Yeah, people just eat pudding. But they know what pudding tastes like is the thing. I know I can pick a shit pudding out any time, boom.

Cramel and chocolate blend. If I take a big plug of that and it doesn't taste like what I know it tastes like, It's going right back in the sink. That's it, right in the garbage. So they said, and sending it to work with him, sent the pudding to work with him. Sabrina reportedly placed it in his lunch, but later called to warn him not to eat it because, quote, the bananas had gone bad. Maybe they were spoiled. I realized I used spoiled banana, so don't eat it.

Maybe she called to say that after he took, after he ate it to try to be like, to try to cover it up? Maybe. possible or she had second thoughts that's going to get traced back to me, one of the two. Because if you send it to work with him and then he drops dead at work, now that banana pudding is not in your control anymore.

Right. And they're going to take that banana pudding and test it. The same way she made sure with that other guy to take, Tammy made sure to take the bowl with her. And when they showed up with Corey Richens and all that,

none of the glasses had traces of fentanyl in them because they'd already been washed. You know what I'm saying? So it's shit like that. So anyway, that failed. Then they later staged a workplace shooting to look like a robbery. That's how they did it? This is fucking crazy.

Hearn testified extensively, the firefighter, about the pudding plan, including testing arsenic on a neighbor's dog. Oh, my God, could these people get worse? Some poor, innocent fucking dog is going to take the brunt of this shit. What are you? Head and shoulders? you're doing animal testing, you piece of shit. This is fucking disgusting.

Holy shit. A dog, too. Sabrina was convicted of first-degree murder and conspiracy, but acquitted of the attempted poisoning charge due to lack of physical evidence. She got 25 to life, though. Wow, that's crazy. Here's another one that's sort of similar here.

Stacey Castor in New York. 2000 and 2005. Oh? She poisoned both of her husbands with antifreeze. Oh, Jesus. Her first husband, Michael Wallace, died in 2000, initially ruled a heart attack, and her second husband, David Castor, in 2005, initially staged as a suicide with a glass of antifreeze and a suicide note.

Oh. She used a turkey baster to administer the poison. I hope she wasn't putting that in other places. Yeah. When suspicion arose, she attempted to kill her daughter by spiking her. drinks with pills and vodka and forging a note framing her daughter for the murders. Oh, this bitch is crazy. Somehow she's worse than the last one we just talked about with the dog.

At least they didn't try to kill her kid or daughter and blame her for it, too. Frame her for the second, for her. Wow. She was going to kill a third and frame the third for her second. For her second. Now, exhumation, I guess they. She got away with it pretty much. And then exhumation toxicology revealed antifreeze in both husbands.

Wow. She was convicted of second-degree murder for her husband and attempted murder against her daughter. How is it second-degree murder? This is planned as fuck. Yeah, that's... You can't poison on a whim. No. You know what I mean?

Or whatever. And it's, wow. They had a fucking suicide note and shit and everything. That is diabolical. She died in prison in 2016. Wow, that was fast. Also, Joanne Curley in Pennsylvania in 1991. She slowly poisoned her husband, Robert Curley, with thallium, which is from rat poison.

Over the course of a year, she did this. That's diabolical. She started shortly after their marriage, spiked his iced tea and food repeatedly, causing prolonged symptoms and, oh, they're always misdiagnosed. And did we cover this one? I feel like because Thalium sounds familiar. Yeah. Well, also, he kept getting misdiagnosed as something else because that I remember.

And she finally gave him a massive dose in pizza and tea. And she pleaded guilty to third-degree murder and served 20 years about and was released in 2016. Oh, Jesus. She's out there? She's out there, everybody. Take a look. And then finally, Audrey Marie Hillie in Alabama, convicted in 83. She's known as the Alabama Black Widow.

Oh, yeah, she poisoned everybody. She poisoned her husband Frank with arsenic over time, initially thought to be natural causes. Then she attempted to poison her daughter with arsenic while faking her own death and assuming a new identity. She collected insurance and remarried, and her second husband survived but got sick. Arsenic was detected and exhumed remains. She was convicted of murder and attempted murder. She escaped briefly, but was recaptured and died in prison.

Wow. A mess. Holy shit, I feel like we covered her too. Oh, Marie Hilley. Perhaps the women that do this, too, are like extra fucked up where they escape or they, get out and change their name or her, or there's an extra layer to their fucked up. Yes, because to do this, this particular shit, you have to be fucking diabolical. Over time is crazy.

Over time. You're poisoning eight, nine, ten times. And then finally a big one. Well, even think about Tammy, go back to Tammy, five months of planning this, getting the drugs five months earlier. Think about five months. That's not, I'm mad and I choke this person to death or I shot them. This is, that is fucking sick. You have so many opportunities to change your mind.

Like all the time in the world to change your mind. So anyway, July 2011, Duval's attorneys file a motion asking for the circuit court to correct errors in her trial and request that five of her insurance fraud convictions and two of her obstruction convictions and the sentences she received for those all be vacated. In August of 2011, the judge denies their request to overturn seven of the ten convictions and tells her, you're fine. Get your ass back to jail. September 2012 is her big appeal for the Indiana Court of Appeals.

She appeals on these issues, whether the trial court abused its discretion in admitting Stephen Brown's testimony about the alleged. poison the prior poisoning. Yeah. Because remember that, they opened the door of the defense and they're arguing they didn't. So that's a real tic-it-tack legal thing they're arguing there, which can overturn shit, though. Whether the admission of testimony about the missing Roxanol at Miller's Merry Manor was fundamental error.

Seems pretty relevant to this. He's missing and there's some in him. Yeah. Whether multiple insurance fraud and obstruction of justice conviction should be merged as a single continuing offense. So the murder conviction is affirmed. That's different. That's good.

And then the judge wrote that as far as Stephen Brown's testimony, admission may have been technical error, but harmless. There was overwhelming independent evidence of guilt. Basically, if he didn't testify at all, you'd still find her guilty. Wouldn't matter. The Roxanol testimony. No fundamental error properly admitted as evidence of access to the murder weapon. Right.

Makes perfect sense to me. And also insurance fraud and obstruction, the continuing crime doctrine applied. Six insurance fraud convictions reduced to one. Three obstruction convictions reduced to one. So they do that. They do the continuing crime doctrine. So those are all smushed into one rather than six and three. So now there's that.

October 24th, 2012, they file, her attorneys file a brief with the Indiana Court of Appeals asking for a rehearing. They deny her. They also petition the Supreme Court of Indiana to hear the case. In January of 2013, the Indiana Supreme Court declined to hear further appeal. We are sick of hearing from you. Don't care anymore. Yeah. The court's refusal to hear her appeal means her only recourse is seeking post-repeakable.

conviction relief by arguing a new point. She can't, with none of the shit she's used, such as ineffective assistance of counsel. None of this shit has worked for her. She remains at the Rockville Correctional Facility. Her case got a lot of attention. Nancy Grace devoted a full episode to it in August of 2010. What the, we can't get away from fucking Nancy Grace, man. Oh, we never will.

We never will. Just hear that voice always, always. There's something. She's the most sanctimonious sounding human being I've ever heard. Yeah. It seems like. It's her tone. Yeah.

She was right evidently a couple of times in her life somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And people loved it. And now they can't get enough of her voice. And I... That's what I don't get. I hate her. I can't stand her.

I can't stand her because she... I hate that one of them. Her brand of prosecutor. is a brand that is like, you know how you're going to act if you're a woman prosecutor in the South. It's like her. Watch the trial in the staircase.

That lady. That is like exactly, she is the exact Nancy Grace prototype where she's like, he was bisexual. Like doing like that, like this mixing like, you know, almost preaching in with this like, judge him for his lifestyle.

Like all that, just hate it. It's like, He does not belong here. Yeah, if you know what I mean. You know where he belongs. Wank, wink. Put him in there where he'll be happy. Yeah, where he'll be happy with all the others.

They're going to be floating around there just to float. That's the kind of thing that she sounds like to me. I don't know if she's like that or not, but her voice. I don't. I don't like her. I don't care. I don't care. She just acts like somebody did this to her personally.

And nobody did, Nance. Calm the fuck down. And she called it the Oreo pudding murder. Then there was the snapped one. Poisonous Love. Yeah. That was the name of that episode. It was alongside the Nancy Kistle case, what we talked about,

a double feature about wives who poison their husband. The ID Channel's Fatal Vows series covered the case in an episode titled Death for Desert. Gross. and his cousins, David Thompson, Donald Duval, Barbara Honia, Zilla Thompson, or Zyla Thompson all appeared in the documentary coverage expressing grief and basically also the fact that they're just so mad for 100 grand. This is all for 100 grand. His cousin said she took a great guy out of all of our lives that we love dearly.

He was just the light of the party and everybody cheered up when he showed up. He was just always so happy and so positive. They could have gone, they could have gave her 200 years. She ain't going to live long enough to live those out. So they gave her the rest of her life. But they didn't give her the rest of her life. 81? That's very doable.

That's doable. Yeah, especially if she keeps in good shape. Especially a woman. Yeah, women live longer, period. Now, this Crime Watch Daily, this was 2016 also aired. This is Season 1 episode 84. Holy shit. How about a new season, guys?

How Tammy Duval killed her husband slash Placerville dead husband slash Susie Bigamist? That's the name of the thing. They don't have... Susie Bigamist. They don't have enough episodes. Are they doing every 12 minutes a new episode? I have no clue. How do you do a murder in 12 minutes?

Crime Watch Daily with Chris Hanson. He's like, I'll do your murder. I'll find out if you're a pediment. file. I'll get it all done in 12 minutes. Susie Bigamist. Susie Bigamist. There was a book here that, I mean, we went through it, but it was mainly just the same shit from the court documents. There wasn't a whole lot of big revelations, but there

might have been a couple of lines I got that only were in there, so I might as well give it out. Tammy Duval, husband killer, is the name of it. Right on the nose. Nailed it. Right on the nose by Jesse Dillard. Jesse with an eye. So, yeah. So there you go, everybody. There is Columbus, Indiana. And just some crazy shit. What is wrong with people? It's unbelievable.

The more I hear about this stuff, too, like, we all, like, people give us food all the time. Yeah. People we know. Oh, yeah. You go to people's houses. We show up to clubs and people bring us fresh-baked cookies. All the time. And we eat them.

And we fucking eat them. We are morons. We eat them. And we don't even think twice about it. We're absolute idiots. We smell at me. That looks great. That smells great. We start eating shit. I bring them home.

I put them in my bag. Put them on a plane with me. Get them home and throw them at my kids. Here, kids. Eat this. You want to test this out? I haven't tried it yet. It's my face.

Somebody made that. Think about like DoorDash. That's a stranger. That is horrifying. Right? What fucking Uber eats is. Yeah. The amount of hands between your mouth and that cheeseburger's beginning.

It's like 11. Yeah. I mean, and they've always had food delivery, but it was someone who worked for the restaurant, that they, you know, hasn't poisoned anybody in the millions of deliveries they made. I don't know if this person's. Who knows? We are very trusting. We're very trusting, all of us with our food.

And I think about that all the time. And I think to myself, like, I get ridiculous thoughts because I'm like, is Sarah going to poison me? And then I'm like, no, I don't think so. She doesn't seem like the poisoning type. And she loves food. so I feel like she wouldn't want to make food taste shitty. So she wouldn't want to do it. So she'd be like, I would make it taste bad.

I'll find another way to kill him. I'd feel bad to ruin a steak with poison. I really would. I would do. Yeah. Especially those first couple bites, you know, before they just keel over and die. They're going to be like, you suck at cooking. They're going to think your food sucks, and you're going to have to live with that.

And then they drop dead. Their last thought on earth is, boy, Jimmy makes a shit steak. No, I don't. Jimmy doesn't season this for, Put some bullshit on this. What do you put on this? Crushed up aspirin? This tastes like shit.

Would you soak this enlistering? Terrible. Peak it too. That's the important part. You don't stop short of the peak, Jimmy. You know how it works. Holy shit. So there you go.

There's Columbus, Indiana. Unreal. A goddamn crazy episode and crazy people doing crazy things. And honestly, Alan seemed like a party. He seemed like a fun guy. Really? Yeah. Seemed like a guy you wouldn't mind hanging out with.

Seemed like a cool dude. Not a dude to chill over 100 grand, that's for sure. No. Give me a fucking break. Come on, man. I'd rather getting a $100,000 corvette with him with a spare coozy and move on down the road. You got an extra coozy? Sure do, buddy.

And then you guys pull off together. You're Thelman Louise. Thelman Coozy over here. T-tops, Al. It's T-top time, baby. Let's do it. So if you like this story, tell everyone you know about it and also tell the internet. Get on whatever app you are on and whatever app you listen on and give us five stars.

And if you're watching on Netflix, pull up one of these apps and give us five stars. Who cares? You can do it. You have a podcast app. And tell Netflix you love it too. Yeah, the more you tell them, the better. So do that. Keep coming back and listening over and over again.

head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Tickets for live shows are there, as well as all of our merchandise, anything you can think of from skateboards to coffee mugs to shower curtains. We have it. And also live shows, get your tickets right now. Next date with tickets available because May 1st and Salt Lake City is sold out. May 2nd. And Denver has a few tickets left, so you can get in there and get those.

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There's a shitload of them there. As many episodes as that lady had flexeral pills in the bottle. Tons of them. So, and anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything. you get those subscription, soon as you get it. Then new ones every other week, one crime and sports and one small town murder. This week is no different. For crime and sports, we're going to talk about, I believe it's pronounced, the Ecclesia Athletic Association.

This was, that sounds good to me. This was an organization to keep inner city youth off the streets and help them with sports and things like that. And of course, it turned into a disgusting mess of horribleness. Then for small town murder, part two of Corey Richens. The most fascinating case I've ever heard in my life. And I've watched the whole trial. And we're right in the middle of it. And it's a lot.

And if you checked out, yeah, bad wife, bad mom, bad person. And if you're on the fence about checking this out, read the comments from Patreon about how much people love this episode because they loved it. And we're going to give you more. They loved it. They're going to give you more. We're going to give you more this week. The trials and even bigger spectacles. That's going to be awesome.

Can't wait to do that. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all that. And you get everything we put out. Crime in sports, your stupid opinions, and small town murder all add free with your Patreon as well. And you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is right goddamn now. Jimmy, do me a favor and hit me with the names of the most wonderful people in the world whose cookies we can trust to not be full of poison. Jimmy, hit me with them right fucking now. This is Zeggerfusser, Gary Howard, and Gary Indiana, Jay.

Gary and Gary. Gary. Holy shit. Happy hours in Buffalo, Texas, though. Buffalo, Texas, wow. Still get the lake effect down there, I feel like, yeah. Exact Tax Solutions also. Hey, it's that time of year, guys.

What your tax needs this time of year? That's a bitch. Amy and Danny in Denver. I'll see you guys soon. Matthew Benitez. Thank you very much. Mel B. Not that one.

Shelly McClone, and Sarah in Texas. Happy birthday. Sarah, what a big day. God damn. Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Ryan Bender, Janice Hill, Ashley, with no last name, Candice Yashaz, U-S-S-Haz, Ria with no H, Heather Ut, Bailey Reynolds, Chon with no last name, Connor Morgan. Is it John or Marks?

C-H-O-N, I think? Oh, not Tron or Chong, never mind. No, it could even be. John. An auto correct. I don't know if I really wrote that. Who knows? Either way.

Sorry, John. I guess. Yeah. Kenneth Mark, Sarah Carlin, Stearns. Kimberly Bowman, Toaster Bath. Sounds lovely.

Esther Cruz. Ari would know last name. Jenna Gouli, Jenny B. Jasmine Montanez. Jason Gayan. Gajan. Savannah Hill.

Jesus. You're all out there on that way. Annie, would no last name. Annie brought out the coffin on him. Crossrow. Elise Miller, Henry Williams, Maggie May, Clara Absalonova. D. D. would no last name.

Diana Winn, Rich Coger, Ram 107, Megan, Deshawn Jungay, Runge, Rungi, Chris Sager, Glenn Scarbacka, Annmarie McCormack, Ann Marie McCormick, 124, Pomegranates. I don't know if that's an address. Or if they just don't do threes around there. Sean McGuire. Naomi S. Alexis Waw. Woff,

Wogg. Justin Collins. Nina Allen. Ben would no last name. Christian would no last name. Justin McElroy. Kate R. Anthony Sheridan.

Loose. End. Oh, I got it. I see it there now. L-U-C-E. And, James. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Teresa S-C-H. School. Shah. I don't know. Nocturne. Rich would know last name. Anne-Marie.

Hefty. That's a lot of Ann-Marie's. Has there been three? Keaton and Rayer. Reheer. The most Ann-Marie's in all of podcasting we have. Anna Marie. Yeah.

Like the, there's a song. There's a country song called Anna Marie. I don't know. You can Google it. Frankie McDonough. Zachary Moffitt. A-E-V. Is that AVE or Ave?

I don't know. Briggy Smalls. Trisha Olson. Jennifer Coleman Vargo. Ben Newsome. Tabitha would know the last name. Melanie Dieton. Parker Manning. D. Dub. Chris Egli. Ashley would know the last name. Isabella Hall. Jeff would know last name. Charo would no last name. Garrett Albright. Liz Clark. George Stish. Samantha Hoffman. Crystal Martin. Debbie Glazer Matt Ramos. Kelly Gordon. Tyler Moore. Jananne. Jann. Hauston. Mattoos Benach. What is... Matous Bonatch. What is that? Matus Benach is a name.

Ben Aenech. Ben Newsom. Was there a Ben Newsom already? I don't know. Colby Hoff. John Thomas. Gab would know the last name. Emily Young.

Elizabeth Brandon. Killian. Killian Hubble. Hubbell. Chrissy Brown. Quinn Richens. Are you related? Kim Reese.

Quang-quanked farm crew. Quang-quant. Quon-quant farm crew. Wow. The quon-quant for, all right. Say that ten times. I can't say it one time. Greg Schuchart.

Jordan Butler, Dara, Drew Evitz, Everett, Everett, Nicole Sotka, Yasmine White, Heavy Cream, the Fat Housewife. What does that mean? Beach Girloff. I don't even want to chance it. Nina would know last name. Gianna. Giana Kefalis. Celeste Blythe, Bev would know last name.

Melissa would know last name. Vicki Rose, Tim Endlitch. Rachel would know last name. What is this? Rachel. All right. Elizabeth Peters. Stefani would no last name.

That's probably Stephanie. Jaycock. Yeah. Stavani, maybe. It's spelled like Glenn. I don't know. Jacoch. J. Koch.

Jokic. Frisch. Lori H. Denbina. Cheryl Cushing Oman. Matt Marshall, Christina Croke, Austin Winneker, Karen Miller, Dominique de Lassandro, Alessandro, Elena Dick, that's with a why. Audrey Baroque, Baroque, Baroque, Baroque, Baroque, Robert Bjorn, Hannah Crossland, Tracy Fisher, Darryl Baranowski, Nicole Winola's name, Joey Benefiel, Hope Gato, Melvin Christe, and all of our patrons. You guys are the best. Thank you so much, everybody, for all that you do for us.

Honestly, you guys are incredible. We can't do any of this without you. Well, honestly, we probably could, but it would be really pointless. I'm boring. I'm boring, because we'd do it and then put it out, and there'd be nobody to listen to it. It'd just be us talking about it. We'd be better off just talking on the phone at that point rather than, you know, flying across the country to be in each other's presence to film all the time. That would be much easier.

So, thank you for doing that. Thank you for hanging out with us. You want to follow us on social media. Shut up and Give Me Murder.com has dropped. menus, take you wherever you need to go. Keep coming back week after week. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, everybody, listening to Small Town Murder out there. Hi. Good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmy, too. And this is an ad, but not an ad for a product. This is an ad for tour dates.

Yes, come see a live show. The 2026 tour. All the tickets are for sale right now, starting out with February 21st in Nashville, March 6th in Durham, March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets, though, to your stupid opinions on the 21st of March. Salt Lake City sold out. Denver has tickets. Be there on May 2nd. May 29th, Buffalo sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan, May 30th. We have September 18th, Milwaukee, September 19th, Minneapolis. October 3rd in Dallas, October 16th in San Jose, October 17th in Sacramento, November 13th in Terrytown, November 14th in Boston. Come see us. The live shows are spectacular.

Come join all of the other STM people. You're going to meet so many people. You're going to have fun. Make some new friends. Like crazy and make some new friends. Come out and see us. Shut up and give me murder.com is where you go for those tickets. Get them right now while they're hot.

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