Strange Affairs Frozen Blood Pottstown Pennsylvania
00:00This week, in Pots Town, Pennsylvania, a twisted tale emerges when a rich, brash, local with a million enemies, is found horribly murdered, but detectives have a mess on their hands with many suspects, including nephews and wives, all telling different stories.Welcome to Small Town Murder.Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.Yay!Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy.Yay indeed.My name is James Petrogall.I'm here with my co-home.
00:43I'm Jimmy Wiseman.Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely insane edition of Smalltown Murder.It is a twisted mess.We don't have to tell you that.It's the same every week, a crazy story, just way different all the time.Let's do one more again.This is some wild stuff we have.Before we get to that, though, you definitely want to head over to shut up and give me murder.com.
01:06That is where you find everything, all your merchandise, and especially tickets for live shows.still some tickets left for October the 18th in Seattle at the Moore.Get in there.Very few.So they just put out a low ticket alert or whatever.So get in there if you want to see us because that's pretty much all there is live for the rest of the year.Everything else is pretty much sold out.It might be a couple left in Philly.
01:27I don't know.Did they sell out?It might be sold out.I think it's done.Yeah.There's also another show, the virtual live show, Thursday, October 30th, right before Halloween.Come hang out with us.Oh, boy.
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02:45Then that's immediately upon subscription.Then you get new ones every other week.One crime in sports.One small town murder and you get it all, everybody.This week what we're going to do here for crime and sports,we are going to talk about those old MTV rock and jock specials where you get to see like a five-foot-three R&B singerlineup against Shaq down in the paint.That's fun.
03:07It's a good time.Boyce to men against the starting lineup of the Hornets.That's good.No, no, I like to see Gary Payton guarding the lead singer from Belbiv DeVoe.That's what we need to see out there.So we'll talk about that.Then for Small Town Murder, we are going to talk about unknown number, the documentary where the mother can't even imagine why does some crazy shit to her daughter.We'll talk all about that.
03:29I got theories why.We got a lot of theories.We'll get all into that.Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all that.But wait, there's more.There's more you also get.every show we do crime and sports your stupid opinions and small town murder all add free with yourpatreon subscription and you get a shout out at the end of the show as well so it's all we can do we're
03:52leaving it all on the table for you that's a better deal else where you can't you can't it's impossiblethat said disclaimer time here we go this is a comedy show we're comedians we're going to makejokes people are also going to die you know how does that work very easily we don't make funof the victims oh or the victim's families oh whyWhy, James?Because we're assholes.But we're not scumbags.See how that works?
04:16It's real simple.There's plenty to make fun of.We make fun of small towns because we're all from somewhere that can be made fun of.Who cares?That's easy.We make fun of a bumbling police force.Let's a murderer go free and he kills five more people.We'll make fun of them for that.
04:29And we make fun of murderers because why not?What else do we have to do?We can't put them in jail or do anything.All we can do is make fun of them.We're comedians.So we'll do that.Either way, that's how we do it.That sounds good to you.
04:42You're going to hear a wild story.If you think your crime and comedy should never, ever go together, we might not be for you, but we might be for you.So give it a shot.Either way, no complaining later.I think it's time, everybody, to sit back, clear the lungs.Here we go.And let's all shout.Shut up and give me murder.
05:03Let's do this, everybody.Let's go on a trip, shall we?We are going to Pennsylvania this week.Yeah, I've heard of this.You've heard of Pennsylvania.A Pottstown?Yeah.I've heard of Pennsylvania.
05:16Pray tell of Pennsylvania.I've heard tell, yeah.Pots Town, Pennsylvania.Yeah, it's been in little things here and there in pop culture.It's got some mentions also.It comes up now and then, mainly as like a husk of an old steel town.Okay.Pots town is like one of those places where they go, you know, you don't want to end up like Pots Town.
05:37Yeah, yeah, yeah.Was there a song?about Pots Town? Yes, we'll get into that. It's in here. Don't worry about it. Absolutely.We think we're going to miss songs. Pots Town, Pennsylvania is in eastern Pennsylvania. It's westof Philadelphia, about an hour outside and northwest of Philly. It's about an hour and a half toHarrisburg, which is the other direction, the capital of Pennsylvania. And then 55 minutes toChester, Pennsylvania, our last episode there, the angriest serial killer around. That guy waswild, yeah. This is in Montgomery
06:08County, area code610 and 484. Can'thold this town. Can't hold it downwith just one areacode. Don't give us one. Little bit ofhistory here. Iron and steel productionthat was happening, attractedthe Potts family who were
06:24iron masters. Oh. Yes.They established... A whole town.That's right. They established a forgeand built a big ass housejust west of the creek.And John Potts, this is.founded the town in 1761on part of the
06:40995 acres that he owned.That's a shitload of land.Jesus. Good for you.It is home of the nation'soldest mill, the Pots TownRoller Mill.Yeah. Which is right next to the Pots TownRoller Rink, which is very
06:54popular. Yeah.So it incorporatedunder the name Pots Town in 1815becoming the second boroughin Pennsylvania after Norristown.I don't know the difference between towns andand all. Every state has a different definition of how they do that. So we won't even get into that. The railroad came in 1838. They made an extension of it. And that way they'd have their finished goods. They could get off on the rails. Once that happened, the population grew and the metal production grew and steel from this borough was used in the Panama Canal and the Golden Gate Bridge.Oh, that's great. So that's all there. And then the steel industry in America kind of fell apart.
07:36like a lot of Midwestern towns, especially Pennsylvania.Basically, listen to Allen Town from Billy Joel.They're talking about a coal, but it's the same thing.It's the exact same thing.So the jobs went away.People started, you know, started to deteriorate.Not to people, the town.I'm sure the people, too.
07:57People too.If you got no job, you got no food.Yeah.Now, famous people from here, Darrell Hall from Hall and Oates is from here.There it is.There you go.That's why.And their album abandoned luncheonette from 1973 features a photo of the Rosedale Diner, which is in Pottstown, which his parents used to take him to when he was a kid.
08:18And that's become like a tourist attraction now because of that album.Okay, that's great.And he made songs that mentioned Pots Town and stuff like that.Here's some reviews of this town.And they vary.Let's just say that.Here we go.Here's five stars.
08:32I think Pots Town is a very decent area.to live in. Very decent. Very decent. Very mid. Very middle of the road. I just think some areas aren't assafe as others and the school district is not too good. I believe housing is pretty cheap and it's a solidarea. Sounds like a three-star review, but that's five stars. It's just how he feels though. This guydoesn't know show. He didn't look up a single thing. He hasn't left his house. He's agoraphobic and he'slike, I think this happens. This is why I don't leave the house. This is what I got in my mind.So here's my solid opinion on that, based on that appreciation.Decent.
09:11One star.The town is horrible.New Jersey is so much better and Brad is from here.Everything about this town is bad and it sucks.Big fan of Brad.I think this is Brad's friend breaking his balls on niches what that is.One star, Pott's town is an area about an hour outside of Philadelphia that I want to get out of.Oh. That's great. It saddens me as I walk to the park or to church and see all the broken down houses. People on the streets without work. I moved to San Diego. However, my mother passes away and brought me back to Pennsylvania. Yeah, I got to come back. I got to come back now. She lived in Pots Town, so I moved there to be able to clean her home out. But even now, I cannot walk past her apartment building. In fact, I will go blocks out of the way just so I don't have to pass her apartment.
10:03I miss her so much.This is one-star review for mom dying.That's what this says.Mom died, one-star.That's what that is.It's nothing to do with the town.I miss mother.Yeah.
10:16Walking by her apartment makes you cry.Don't review the town.What are you talking about?I'm going to go dig off a corpse and put her in my attic.Yeah, I was going to say.This is how Ed Gein got started.One star.A disgusting, filthy, hoarder-ridden town.
10:31Oh, there's a bunch of hoarders.You can see inside.their houses, dead cats as far as theI can see. Horderridden town dotted with drugaddicts and religious extremistswhere abusive children, teenagersand young adults run rampant.
10:46Wow. Wow. Soif they're, are theyfucking kids in thehouse that's hoarded?I don't know. That'd be hard.It's a lot to overcome.I got out a decadeago. I will never go back.
11:02Okay. Why did you reviewthis 10 years later.Why do you give a shit?Imagine looking in your rearview that hard and be like, I'm going to tell everyone.Just weird.Back there sucks and I need everybody to know.I need them to know.People in this town, 23,282.
11:18So pretty good-sized town, not bad.And a lot of that is, too, is it's cheap and you can commute to Philly from here.Yeah, it's only an hour away.So that's not bad.It is way more women than men, which is strange for a town of this size.52.4% women and 47.6% men.Median age here, 35.4, so that's below the national average.A lot of times you get towns like this, you get an older crowd, but I think maybe the closeness to Philly is keeping it lower.
11:48It's only 40% married here, but almost 25% are single with children, which is above the national average, too.race in this town65.6% white20.3% black0.6% Asian, 6.5%Hispanic. Religion isbig in this town.64% religious here.
12:11Catholic is a motherfucker.Yeah, it's usually 50-50.And as you know,it's here, it's 38.5% Catholic.As we know, Catholics are theBaptists of the North.They're going to be the maingroup wherever you are there.
12:25average unemployment here not very uh it's a little bit below average actually so there's jobs atthis point and with philly an hour away it's like yeah should be able to find something uh the medianhousehold income here is 52,722 a year which is well below the 69,000 national averageand the cost of living 100 is regular you know normal here it's 114 so more expensiveThe housing is the cheapest thing out of all of these.The median home cost here, $297,800, which is less than the national average.But you might be convinced.You have to come here.
13:09Well, you know what?You can get a hoarder house real cheap.You might be a rich girl.You never know.Who the hell knows?We'll find out.We'll find out if you're a maniac.Maniac on the floor.
13:23You need to move to Pots Town.and we have for you the Pots Town, Pennsylvania, real estate report.Okay, your average two-bedroom rental here goes for $1,2,40,which is around the national average.The first house we have here, it's not even a house, it's a strip of land.It's basically somebody's side yard.I'm going to show this to you exactly what you get.How much room is that?
13:54You see this picture?The house here, house here.That's the land you get?See the grass behind the telephone pole?That's the land that's for sale.They're selling that?You couldn't build, you could build like a tree fort there if you put a tree in it, like a clubhouse.How much trouble are they in financially that they got to sell off that?
14:12It's like 2100.That's literally a yard sale.210042 square feet of land.Literally a yard sale.Yeah.It's crazy.It is, that's all it is.It's 1107 South Street and Pots Town.
14:28$9,000 for that.They gave that an address. That's crazy.Yeah, it's so weird. You think the person next to it would just want to buy it?Nine grand?Just mortgage it off, pay $8 a month and just, who cares?Move it along.Yeah, that way you have a bigger yard now.Yeah.
14:45Next up here, two-bedroom one bath, 1127 square feet.But it's a cute little house. I'll show you here.It's got the brick.Nice little brick with the siding up top.I love that nice tree out front.That's nice.Oh, yeah.Very nice trees out there. Landscaping's nice here. It's built in 1938.
15:03This house is $259,900 bucks.Okay.Just had a $5,000 reduction as well.Reduction?Yeah.The other one, too, the land had a $1,000 reduction. It was $10,000. Now it's $9,000.You can get it for two. Let's be realistic here, probably.This place is on sale, the whole town.
15:22You go in there with two cash and plunk it down.They're going to give you that strip of land.and then just use it to party and just fuck that neighborhood up.Just party.Then finally here we have a three-bedroom six bathroom, 3,334 square foot house.It's really kind of a cool house if you see.I don't like the metal roof so much, but the rest of the house is cool.You know, that roof has grown on me.
15:49I fucking love those now.It's not that bad.Look at the kitchen.The kitchen's real cool with the cabin.It's a big old island.It's nice.Those things don't leak, man.There's nowhere for water to get through.
15:58No, no, that's cool.I just don't want to hear it.Yeah.Yeah, I suppose if you got enough room in the attic or some insulation up there.Big enough house.This is built in 97.It's on two acres, $999,000.Million dollars.
16:14And it just had a $51,000 price cut.Oh, it was over a million.Yep.It just happened like three days ago and had this price cut.So if you want that house, knock yourself out.Things to do in this town.Here we go.find out what there is to do. Not a lot
16:27by the way. Not a lot interms of organized things. There's stuff to do.It's just, I found thePots TownGo forth, 2025.Go forth, likethe 4th of July, because it's the IndependenceDay. Yeah. Pots Town
16:43Community Celebration.And there's live music.Tethered hot air balloonrides. Yeah.Which you might as well just go to the second story of a buildingat that point. What's theyou're tethered what are we doingI mean that's the best way to do a hot air balloon ride I think
17:00I guess but like why botherkeep that fucker anchored but yeah why notif all the balloons are in use toothey just have a ladder you can stand on top offind a construction crane operatoryeah there you go get a cherry pickeryeahgrand pop bubbles
17:16I don't know what that isinflatables face painting food trucksbeer garden vendors and artisansand a rotary duck race as well.And there's going to be live music,which they don't say what that consists of.And of course, obviously,a fireworks show to round out the day.
17:35They say,heck yeah,Potts Town.Y'all made this one for the books.Free from lounging on the lawnto skyblast and fireworks.It all went down right here.Oh, and all of it was for free.
17:50That's all for free.You can go watch it.And then,You're bored with that.You need to rock a bit.You need to rock.Well, tickets are on sale.I don't know if this is actually happening now or if it already happened.
18:02But get ready for a night of high-energy Van Halen classics and deep cuts.Covers.Not performed by Van Halen, obviously.Performed by America's number one Van Halen tribute.Oh, boy.There they are.It is Romeo Delights Van Halen Experience.Uh-huh.
18:20And I'll show them to you.Oh my.They're clearly going with the David Lee Roth era.Yeah, they have fucked a lot of 1982 dive bar women.Yeah, they clean up in the 55 and over department, I feel like.Yeah, they're doing all right.Yeah.They're like, they sing jump just to see which of the ladies can still jump.
18:45Can do it.And those are the active ones.You want to get with one of those.So, yeah, this is happening in the sunny brook ballroom.on, yeah, September, oh, looks like we missed it, September 13th.It's over.Oh, it just happened.Oh, we missed it.
18:59Damn it. I'm sure they'll come to a town near you if you're that.It's touring like the fucking Renaissance fair.You know it.Now, crime rate, what we are interested in in this town here, property crime almost doublethe national average.Oh.Shit is crazy.They will steal your shit here.
19:15Absolutely.And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault, the Mount Rushmoreof crime is about one third above the national.national average also.Oh, boy, is it dangerous.I don't know what is going on in this town with 23,000 people, but they need to chill thefuck out. Pots Town is off the chain.Pottsville. You too, Potsville. Get your shit together.
19:36Cold Potsberg.Cold Potsberg. It was Potsberg. And then they were like, well, I mean, they got sued byPittsburgh. It was a mess. So let's talk about some murder. What do you say here?All right. Let's get into this because holy hell is this a crazy twisted mess.All right, let's talk about a couple.Let's talk about David and Patricia.Let's start there.Okay.
19:58Let's start with David Anthony Swinhart.Swine, H-A-R-T.Really?Swinehart, one word.He's born in 1938, and this is going to go down in the early 80s.So, you know, he's kind of in the prime of his life at this point.Now, his father was kind of a blue-collar guy, his father Harvey.His mother, Alice, was a homemaker.
20:22he somehow got this thing in his head that he needed to make a lot of fucking money.And that's all it was about.He's definitely, I don't know where he got it.His family wasn't like that.They were just regular, you know, blue collar middle class people.But he was like, no, no, no, I need more.I need more.Now he's got a couple of sisters.
20:47He's got a brother named Robert.One of his sisters, that'll come into play.his sister, one of his sisters will have two sons and that'll be something that comes up here.Now, in the 1960s, David, I'm sorry, Robert's brother, David started buying properties.This is when Pottstown was still happening.This is when they were still making shit here and there were still factories and, you know, this isn't, this isn't like, for some reason when I picture this town, I picture Slapshot.I picture the Slapshot townbecause it's all a bunch of those dying steel towns
21:24in Pennsylvaniabut they were dying in the late 70slike when Slapshot was madepart of that plot was they were closing downthe mill you know that was a partand then the people wouldn't afford to go to the gameso they were going to fold the teamthat was part of it so this is kind of the same thing
21:40but in the 60s it was stillsomething was still going on herenowhe ends up buying a lot of the townas we'll talk aboutreallyYes, him and his lady that he meets here.Patricia, that's going to be his wife.
21:55They get married in 1972.She's about five years younger than him.She also came from, you know, middle to lower middle class upbringing.Yeah.Another, you know, like that.So these two kind of middle class kids are going to make a go of being rich.They're going to try to do it.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:14Now, as of about 1973 here, mid-70s, he has.really done well for himself, David and Patricia together.Buying property and such?Yes, he's turned into a real estate developer and he's worth about $20 million by1973.What?Which is big money in 19-7.I mean, that's not adjusted for inflation.
22:37That's 20 million in 73.Yeah, that's $150 million.I mean, he's really doing well.Apparently, he is a workaholic too.He works 18 hours a day.You don't get $20 million without working your fucking balls off.If you came from nothing and you don't have an education, but you're hustling, you got to hustle a lot.So he built apartment complexes.
23:01That was his main thing.He built these apartment complexes and then strip malls he got into because that became, this is the time when strip malls started to really come into,to be a thing basically.So he started building strip malls in the area.It is a genius thing that they did with that.Well, yeah, for a while.Did everything in a park once?and get everything.
23:20Yeah, yeah, it was.But it's for some reason, I got a bad rap after a while, the strip mall.Yeah, because it's, because it's...It's an eyesore, obviously.Yeah, and it's a traffic, uh, congesting thing for neighborhoods.It does a lot of things that are negative, but it does a lot of things that are fucking great for convenience.That's the thing.Yeah.
23:39Just having your drugstore, grocery store and one parking lot.Absolutely.And some strip malls are very successful and some aren't, basically.We've seen those strip malls where there's 14 stores, two of them are,filled.Yeah.And you're like, this is a disaster.Once one gets, once one's available, it looks like the whole town's dying.
23:56It looks terrible.I remember at 19th in Thunderbird.Yeah.Or 19th and Northern by where I used to live.Oh, Jesus.Way worse.There was like that subway.Yeah.
24:07And there was like a immigration law office in there and everything else was like shut down.But they had like signs up from like, you know, typewriter repair.Like shit that obviously no one's been there since 19.1888, you know what I mean?Shoe cobbling and shit like that.Like, where am I?It's a mess.So the sign for the business is still there, but then in the window, it screams that
24:28giant available banner.Available, yeah.And that available banner is like the kiss of death to a neighbor.It's bright yellow.It looks awful.Screams this business couldn't thrive here.It says we can't even get a boost mobile to rent this.This is a mess.
24:44Not good.Not good.So he, David, he owns whole blocks of house.houses.Okay.Yeah.He owns a newspaper.Oh.
24:54A travel agency, apartment buildings, and an entire village that he built, that heowned.Wow.A whole village.A little track.Yeah.He's hugely just trying to make money, trying to, you know, parlay this into that and flipthis and build this.
25:12And he's got a lot of plate spinning.And he really comes out with, like I said, a lot of cab.They have a big house.He's got a private helicopter at one point.Wow.He's got tennis courts, a swimming pool.A different life.He had 235 properties in Montgomery County, including St. Peter's Village, which is a 350-acre tourist resort near French Creek State Park.
25:42So, I mean, he has got so much going on.Now, he's very well known around the area as well, not only because his,name is on a million signs for when they're building shit or when shit's for sale or thingslike that.But he stands out.You can see the guy from space for Christ's sake.Is he a big guy?He's a big giant guy.
26:01He's 250 pounds.And wealthy.And wealthy.And very, very, a word I'm looking for.Very conspicuous, let's just say.In his appearance as a human, he's very, he dresses like a shit too.He's real sloppy.Really?
26:18He'll have like his shirt all hanging out of the back, like his front tucked in, the back hanging out.He's a mess, this guy.And that sticks out?That's, well, that in addition to the fact that he drives this crazy Cadillac that we'll talk about that everybody knows.A homeless guy getting out of a Cadillac.Getting out of a crazy red Cadillac.It's more than that.We'll talk about it.
26:38Oh, boy.Yeah, he's got, you know, a big giant house.His wife, Patricia, she's wearing fur coats to the grocery store.Oh, Jesus.And this is in an area that starts to kind of crumble a little bit.And they're, yeah, he's, you know, getting out of his Cadillac with all sorts of shit done to it.She's walking around pushing her cart with a fur coat on like an asshole.Yeah.
27:00There are two couples from Goodfellas after the heist.Yeah.Combined into one.That's exactly what it is.No shit.Yeah.It's my mother's name.Take it back.
27:11Take it back.So, yeah, she's a big time socialite because he works all the time.So she's a socialite, knows everybody.They're going to have four kids as well here.By the early, by like 1981, they range an age from six to 17.So they have David, we'll go from oldest to youngest.Kerry is the oldest.And then David is two years younger than her, David Jr., I suppose.
27:38Then there is Christy, who is like six years younger than David.And then the youngest, who's 11 years younger than the oldest, is,is Michael, who's their youngest.So all these kids they have.Carrie David Christie and Michael?Kerry David, Michael Christie.Yeah.Okay.
27:59And, you know, they have, the kids look great and they're dressed nice and they have social standing.And they have huge she hosts, like, throws big elaborate dinner parties.Yeah, yeah.They're really into, like, the society of the area, too.Like, they want to be the cool people.Yeah, sure.They, they're all of the exclusive people, all the politicians and lawyers and all that, that's who they hang out with.They vacation in Europe every year.
28:25Yeah.You know how it goes.You know the lifestyle, Jimmy.I'm familiar.We live it all the time, you know, just got back from Paris a couple days ago, you know.Left my Cadillac with the bullhorns on the front at the airport.Yeah, I keep my boss hog in my driveway so everybody notices it.You know what I mean?
28:44Now, David, like I.said 18 hour days works on the weekends does everything family dinner phone rings it's a businesscall he's not coming back to dinner he's got he's involved in that so he's always kind of on calland he has to be for this and he loves it he's a workaholic he's into this now he's really just aneccentric guy though um one employee described him as a quote comical dresser comical like he'scomical funny not just a slob but like hilariousBig shoes.He said, almost.
29:19He often wore ill-fitting pants with his shirt-tail hanging out.And he carried around a seltzer bottle to squirt people with.What are we talking about?A spraying flour on his little.Yeah, exactly.It's crazy.He also, next to his office, he built his kids a gym right next to the office so they could play.And he also has a pet tarantula.
29:43Why?He's just a weird guy.He's just a weird guy.Now, his car is what he's most known for around town.It is known as, quote, the Pimpmobile.Okay.That's what everyone in town calls it, late 70s, early 80s, the Pimpmobile.One of the cops in town said, the Pimpmobile, that's what we all called it.
30:06Yeah.That's it.So we know what it is?The cop said it's a Cadillac, a red and white Cadillac, and I'll let the cop describe it.Oh, boy.Quote, he put on these oversized headlights and one of those Rolls-Royce grills, you know, like chong and up and smoke on his VW bug.He put a different front end on the car.He's crazy, this guy.
30:28The cop goes on, this guy had money.Nobody could ever figure out why he wanted a car like that.Yeah.Yeah, he looks like a crazy person, but that's what he wants.Why not buy a Rolls-Royce if you're that into a Rolls-Royce?Just get one.You have the money.You can do it.
30:43He was also known for throwing money around.That's the other thing.Everybody called him a high roller and he would spend.He would take the like people from his office.They'd go for quote work trips to Las Vegas and Atlantic City and he would pay for everybody's everything.There'd be a $500 tab.He'd pick that up, no problem.Other times they'd be in a bar.
31:08He'll just buy a round of drinks for everyone in the bar.Okay.One employee remembered a night where David had friends he was entertaining in a restaurant.He invited everybody.This was the inn at St. Peter's, which is the place that he owns that near.So anyway, people became a little pissed off that his party was making too much noise because he's a big loud guy.So to apologize to everybody, he paid everybody's bills in the entire restaurant.All right.
31:40That is pretty good.probably cost him eight, nine, ten grand that night.Yeah.To be a little loud.Yeah.A friend of his said he was a hardworking businessman, but on his off-duty hours, he was a fun-loving man.He enjoyed life to the fullest.And he does enjoy life to the fullest, including the marriage is starting to fall apart here by 1981-ish here.
32:04What's Dave doing?Well, they're not getting along because he's never home.I mean, it's not unreasonable to go.Can you not work 18 hours every day?Weekends included.You got to assume he's not going to be home.He's off busy earning $20 million.But you got to have a ceiling of like, when can I coast?
32:25Yeah, that's the thing.When can I start with the family time?And the problem is he's got some issues here.So the marriage is in trouble.David moves out in early 1981.He leaves the house.Later on, somebody said there were allegations of infidelial.and rumors flying around for a while.
32:44Dang.And somebody who knows the whole thing said,quote, David went to live with his girlfriend,leaving his wife at home with the children.He just found a younger woman.Definitely was too much.Yeah, he just found a younger chickyou wanted to hang out with here.
33:00It's during this time that there's also a cash flow problem.There's a real estate.There's a bad real estate dropbecause this is interest rates were extremely high.People think they're high now.They were fucking soaring back then.So he had a cash flow problem and he had trouble sometimes paying his water bills for his properties.Oh, wow.
33:22Which is basic minimum.So everybody was talking about did he overextend himself and shit like that.But he still had cash to throw around when he went out and things like that.But tenants in his apartments complained that he refused to maintain the apartments and houses that he rented out.Slumlord too?So now he's turned into kind of a kind of a lot.slum lord yeah. Dang it.So in May of 81,
33:4557 judgmentstotaling almost $15 millionin business loans were filedagainst him. Oh boy.In the Montgomery County Courtby the Red Hill Savings and Loan Associationof Red Hill. Court records showthat later on in the year,
34:03though, by the end of 81, he obtaineda release of judgment for all buttwo of the judgments in exchange forvarious parcels of property.So he made good with it.He owed people money, but instead of paying him money, he would...Copts up some properties and he would call the good.Yeah, that's all.
34:17They would trade for property and do that.Now, his new girlfriend is named Sarah Sky, S-K-Y.Oh.Sarah Sky.And she's young and blonde and hot.It sounds like a girl that Brazzers has under contract.Yeah, Sarah Sky definitely...There's definitely a porn star named Sarah Sky.
34:38I'm sure there is.A hundred percent.Sarah Sky. Yeah, that's too good. If not.Too easy. Ladies, get on it.Get your fucking...You're looking up Sarah Sky, Triple X?I am.Is there one there has to...
34:54Why do I keep typing an E?You want it to be...Oh, there is.There is. Of course there is. Of course there is.That is amazing. One with an age and one without, James.Oh, perfect. And I doubt it would be her because she's like 70 years old by now.Right.So, yeah.
35:10This girl's probably...Well, she might be too.We don't know.Oh, no.Yeah.He doesn't make any fucking money today.Yeah, who knows?So, yeah, this is, she's, you know, 10 years younger than Patty, so 15 years younger
35:22than him, Patricia.So, you know, he's not even trying to hide the affair by the 80, by 81.He's not even doing.He had moved out of the house.He moved in with Sarah.And what he would do is, though, every night he would drive to the house on Mogger's Mill Road.that's his house, the family home.He would drive there to have dinner with Patricia and the kids.
35:45Okay.Help with homework.You know, tuck the little kids into bed and then see you later, back to Sarah's house.Head on back home to Sarah.Head on back home.Yep.All right.So that's how this is going.
35:58And this went on for months and months and months, which is interesting.She said, Patricia said he would often stop home to change his clothes and maybe take a shower before going out for the night.Yeah, he'd like, he'd leave Rican Apaco, Rabon, just fucking, you know,CK1 pouring off of him as he walked out the door going out to party that night, which is interesting.So, Patricia, by this time, by the summer of 81, it's a big house and she needs help around this house.Sure.You know, she's got four kids and doing all this shit and she needs kind of, she needs some help around the house.So she calls upon a nephew for help.
36:39David's nephew.Oh.He's gone, but you can help me.David's nephew is Thomas Scott DeBlaise.D-E-B-L-A-S-E.DeBlaz-A-S-E. DeBlaz. Whatever.DeBlaze.DeBlaze.
36:55Thomas.He's born November 7th, 1958, so 20 years younger than David.At this point, he's 23 years old.He was the Pots Town High School Star Quar.quarterback in high school. Oh, yeah. He's, you know, six feet tall and muscular.Sure. Didn't do anything with that, though. He's the kind of just the atypical, like, small town quarterback who didn't go anywhere and then he's working construction two years later. That's, that's what he is. So that's what he does. He works construction. Um, yeah, his mother is David's sister. Now, uh, he shares kind of the same features as David as well.dark hair and kind of things like that.But he's like a young, trim, muscular, attractive version rather than the 20 years later
37:48shirt tail hanging out of the back of your pants, 250-pound sloppy drunk version.So, but he has no business acumen or motivation or, you know, any kind of anything like that.He has no.He's a good hand.He can operate a shovel real good.He can do that, exactly.He worked construction, like we said, didn't go to college, no private.prospects, just swinging hammers, and he drinks down at the high point tavern or high point
38:15saloon or whatever it's called down on Main Street. That's it. Now, at family gatherings,he said that he started to notice Aunt Patricia was giving him looks, looking him up and downand all that. Then she started calling him to the house for help, and he came right over. Andthen she started confiding in him about old Uncle David's affairs.crying on his shoulder and he, of course, comforted her and all that.Now, he has an older brother as well named Jeffrey Todd de Blase.He's like a year and a half older.Now, so these two are the two nephews of David.
38:55Now, in 1981, by the summer of 81, he thinks Patricia's, quote, cheating, which is hilarious because he's living with a chick.She's living with a woman.That's wild.So he thinks a divorce is going to be coming up soon, David.So he needed proof that Patricia was cheating.So he bugged the house.He put in these tape recording systems that record every call that comes in the house and all that.He puts this elaborate shit.
39:28You have to be rich to do this back in 1981 here.And Patricia talks on the phone all the time.So David installed a line activated tape recorder.which, by the way, is very illegal in Pennsylvania.But not really if it's your own house.That's the problem.Oh, okay.If it's your own house.
39:46So he's got a little loophole, yeah.Yeah, it's kind of hard to do that.But David didn't give a shit if it was legal or not.He wanted to get proof that his wife was cheating.So when they got divorced, he didn't have to give her anything.So he ends up getting on tape all sorts of late night phone calls between Patricia and nephew Thomas.Oh, Jesus.Not only is she fucking someone else.
40:08Oh, yeah.His nephew.Jesus.His way younger nephew.Yeah.And they're sitting there.It's real romantic shit and, you know, explicit plans for what they're going to do next time they see each other and how they're going to fuck.Oh, boy.
40:24Oh, yeah.Oh, yeah.It's graphic shit for sure.That's creepy.Not very good going on here.No.In divorce court, not going to look great for her.No.
40:35Mainly because he's a family member.That's the main thing that looks bad.That's the biggest problem.Yeah.I mean, it's one thing, cheating.It's not her family, but he's cheating too.Yeah.Yeah.
40:44It's not necessarily, it's not going to create a genetic issue, but it's going to create some fucking problems around the table.Uncomfortable Thanksgiving.I'll tell you that fucking much.It's going to be real weird.And Easter and Christmas.It's going to be real weird.Holy shit.So Joan Rainer is a friend of David.
41:05and said, because the divorce was going to be so costly for him, David required leverage.So October 1981, Patricia files for divorce.Okay.And she has, she's got a good lawyer and she wants a lot.She says, I want half of everything.Yeah.Also, the house, alimony, child support.She wanted to.
41:29She said she wanted to maintain the lifestyle that his money had provided for them.And he's got four kids.He's got a support there.So, you know.Then she files all that.And then they file a thing back saying, well, he's got no money.So he's broke.He's actually in fuckloads of debt is what he is.
41:50Oh, so you can have half of that.You can have half of nothing is what you can have.Is what they basically tell it.You can have half of worse than nothing.You can have half these bills.They said the recession killed the property values, the recession of late 70s andreally up until about 1980.five, then we could for about two years and then another recession.
42:07So there was that and the interest rates, everything else had turned him into shit, turnedhis portfolio into shit.The banks are circling like vultures.Yeah.It's not good.They said that he had informed her and her attorneys that he was insolvent and he wasreceiving a $500 weekly stipend from Red Hill savings and loan to which he owed about$13 million to them.
42:39And growing.And growing.Yeah.The only asset he had is his life insurance, which is $523,000.Okay.So he's got that.They would pay out if he dies, but other than that...Other than that, you're stuck, yeah.
42:54You're getting nothing.Yeah.You're really not getting shit.He's literally broke.He's super.broke. In December of1981, the owner ofthe Guardian, a weekly
43:05newspaper based in Montgomery CountyCity, which is David, he owns this.Him and his two partnerssold the Belmont apartments that hehad for $1.7 millionin December. So he's trying toget his portfolio at leastto where your chin's
43:21above water. He's just trying to get there.Just be able to breathe a little bit.Now, January 15,18, 1982.This is all going on.By the way, during all of this, all of the, I want half of everything and I want the houseand him saying I'm broke, he's still coming over every night.Really?
43:39Still coming over and eat dinner with the kids, still doing all that kind of shit.I guess you got to, for the kids, keep that shit under your hat until...I'd like to talk to a psychiatrist or psychologist about that because I'm not sure, I'm not sureif that's good or if that just prolongsthis and makes it weirder. I'm not positive.I can't believe it's possiblefor them. No, it's been going on for like a yearthough. That's a long, I could see
44:05for a long, but a year is crazy.So this night, January15th, heshowed up for dinner.It's the usual family dinnerat the house, 284, Mogger's MillRoad. The kids are jacked.Mom, dad's here. It's great.
44:22The kids said, too,mom seemed in a decent mood tonight.They were actually, everybody was conversing nice.Okay.Yeah.There was not that weird tension that's been there a lot of the time.They both were happy about the upcoming.Yeah.
44:34A court date.This is going to be great.David helped his youngest daughter with her spelling homework, hung out with his teenage son, talked some basketball, told Patricia the pot roast was delicious.Everything was great.Now, by 8 p.m., the younger children are in bed.The teenagers are in their rooms, obviously.what is it, 82, with giant headphones on listening to Oreo Speedwagon, I assume.Probably.
45:01That's all I can think.They're doing that.Patricia walks David to the door and says drive safe.Yeah.He walks out, his red Cadillac there, the Pimpmobile.Yeah, right out front.The Pimpmobile is parked in the driveway.Usually he would park in the garage, but he wasn't parked in the garage tonight.
45:21So he was parked out front.Now, he's supposed to be meeting up with friends, but he never shows up that night, just hang out with friends.Which, I mean...Got a hot date with Sarah Sky.Who knows?Yes, I mean, he could be doing anything.So they don't think too much of it, but, you know, they call and try to find him, can't find him, whatever.Now, the next day, he's supposed to have gone into his office the next day, Saturday, the 16th.
45:48That's a Friday, the 15th.On the 15th, that day we just talked about, he left revised insurance papers on his office desk.He told his secretary to meet him back in the office the next day, a Saturday, to help him finish the paperwork, which would, quote, effectively change the beneficiary from Patricia to a trustee for his children on his life insurance.Building up a trust.All right, good.Rather than her having it, it would be someone holding it for his kids.Yeah.he never showed up to work Saturday to do this though.
46:21No.Imagine you come in on a Saturday because your boss wants you to and you're like,God damn,and I have to go in to deal with his personal shit too.This isn't even business.And then he doesn't even show up.You'd be pissed.It's all me?
46:33I can't do anything with this.It's his insurance papers.So according to he never showed up.That's all we know.All we know is the last time he was around January 15th,He had left his office, visited his mother for a minute, then drove to his old house, had dinner, and took off.Very normal.So by Sunday comes, and still nobody's heard from David.
46:59Now people are starting to get a little bit worried.What's going on here?Yeah.And they don't, like, his car isn't where it usually is.His car isn't parked at either the house or at Sarah's house or it's very strange here.Then the 18th comes around.Oh.And it's David's birthday.
47:15It's his 44th birthdaySo people are trying to get a hold of himObviouslyPatricia by this dayHe doesn't show upThey have like cake for him at the houseWith the kids are all waiting for him to come over for his birthdayThey got candles lit and he's not showing up
47:32So they're like okay this is weirdSo Patricia calls the policeAnd reports David missingYeahShe said he left Friday from this houseAnd never came backThey go to talk to SarahShe said I have no idea
47:45he didn't come back Friday.I never saw him Friday. He never came home.So they were like, okay,his office was locked.Oh. So that's safe and secure.Nobody like, you know,rolled him at his office or anything.His red Cadillac, nowhere to be. Pimpmobile, gone.
48:02Nowhere to be found.So it's really odd.So they're looking into it and they find outthat he was expected to meet friends on Friday nightbut never showed up.Then he missed several more meetings scheduled for the weekends.And then obviously hisown birthday party, so that's the point of this. Now, later that day, after he's been reported
48:22missing, there's a beat cop named Timothy Morrison, and he was checking alleys in downtown Pots Town,basically looking for homeless people that are going to die in the cold. Yeah, saving some lives.That's basically what he does, this type of thing. There's not a whole lot going on otherwise.Right. Then behind the Maple Street apartment complex, which by the way, David owns, he owns that, yeah.He sees a red and white Cadillac with a rolls rice grill on it.Not a lot of those. Yeah, not a lot of those rolling around Potsdown, probably.Probably only one in the country. I'm going to say, yeah, it's been there. It's not, didn't just get there.The windows are completely covered in frost. You know, it's been there for three days in January and Pennsylvania.
49:07So this guy approaches and kind of wipes off the rear window, you know, gets some frost out and looks in just to see what's going on here.And he kind of jumps back from the car because what he saw was what looked like a frozen human being on the floor in the back seat.On the back.Okay.And he thinks there's blood all over the car too.So he says, holy shit, that's out of there, calls from, you know, detectives and people like that.they open up the car and David is behind the he's on the floor in the back seat behind the front seats on the floor he's wearing a white ski sweater and brown pants that are pulled all the way down sure and that's where he is he is frozen solid by the waysolid like Frankie Carbone and good fellas like it took them three days to thaw him out it's that kind of solid which is crazy
50:07So he's covered in blood, too.There's blood all, a frozen blood all over him, and he's frozen, which is crazy.Pants and underpants pulled down, exposing his ass, basically, sticking up at everybody.They do think that that is as a result of being dragged into the car.Okay.I think his pants came down from being dragged, you know, under the shoulders there like that.So they perform an autopsy, and they find out that they feel like.he was still alive when he was brought into the backseat floor of the Cadillac.
50:42Yeah.They think he was definitely still alive.They said it's hard to tell a lot of things because he was frozen for three days.Yeah.There's some stuff, but they say he's been beaten over the head at least six times,six separate blunt force injuries to the head.And he's been stabbed at least 14 times.Why the, why that's a lot?
51:04Yeah.Yeah, that's a lot.he said that the initial crushing blow to the headwould have probably killed him eventually anyway.Sure, yeah.But the rest of it, obviously, sped it up a little bit.They believe that the beating over the head was with a baseball bat.It's got that kind of characteristics to it.
51:21And 14 stab wounds are in the back, side, and buttocks.Okay.Stabbing a guy in the ass.So now they estimated he'd been dead for about 20 hoursbefore the body was found, but they said,you can't accurately predict time of death because he's frozen solid,which is why the ice man froze people solid.Right.
51:41It was a thing.That's the whole point.The medical examiner said he believed that it had to have been more than one assailant involvedbecause two weapons were apparently used.Two very different weapons, a bat and a knife.So they were saying, and also not only for that,because one person could have bashed him and then stabbed him,but they said he's such a big guy.
52:02He would have probably needed two people to get him into the car.car. Oh, yeah, yeah. He's, you know, 250 pounds. So they said they believe that robbery is notthe motive because David still had his wallet with some money in it and change in his pocket,and he was wearing his expensive watch still. Okay. So not robbery or that are terrible at their job,robbers. Or just looking for something very specific. Wanted the catalytic converter instead.Wanted one-eyed Willie's map to his gold. And that's all. Anything less than that, he's not accepting. So theThe car, the evidence in the car, there's blood all over the vehicle, not just in the back seat.It's everywhere.
52:40So that's interesting to try to piece that together.There's multiple blood types present as well.Oh.So it's not just from him.Yeah.There's fabric fibers that don't match David's clothing.So from the assailant or assailants.And snow and dirt is in the car inconsistent with the alley it's located in, meaning it was driven from somewhere else.
53:02Yeah.that was like snow and dirt that were on his shoes and on David.All right.Elsewhere.Elsewhere.So he was drug into the car somewhere else driven here, they're thinking.Now, remember, it's 1982, no DNA testing.Sure.
53:17No, the forensics are minor.Now there's touch DNA.Right.This is like, that's, who even, who even knew?That's what I mean.If there, if this was then, like, let's say this was 25 years ago, Brian Coburn.or they wouldn't even talk to him probably.Right.
53:35Well, they might have because his car was driving around a lot,but they wouldn't have had anything to arrest him on.And the cell phone stuff would be weird, but that's all that they would be able to,that's not enough to arrest a guy on for murder.Fuck no.So that's what I mean.That touch DNA, that is brand, that is brand new.It's amazing.
53:5310-year-old technology.We don't even care about your fingerprint at this point.Oh, who cares?Yeah, screw your fingerprint.I don't care.Back then, all they had was finger-old.fingerprints and blood types.That's it.
54:04And they have no fingerprints.So they think whoever did this wear gloves, which would make sense too because it was Januaryat night.So everybody's wearing gloves pretty much.Yeah.Now they go into the investigation of who the fuck could have done this.And the first thing they think is, does he have any enemies?Do you think a fucking ruthless real estate developer who owns a newspaper has no enemies?
54:28I don't think so.He's got a shitload of enemies.Yeah.It's like Omar said in the wire when his boy got killed.He said, his enemies got enemies.That's where we're at with David.No money, no problems.And you got 20 million in the 70s?
54:43You probably got 20 million enemies.And you owe people money now and you have how many tenants that someone might have a hot water heater you didn't fix on time?There is a million reasons for murder.People have moved out and still hate him.Oh, yeah.An investigator said, quote, enemies, we could feel.Phil City Hall with people who hated David Swinehart.There you go.
55:05That's not good.That's bad.They said shit.They were even, they said they were interested in a couple of particular enemies of his that had, you know, tenants and people like that.People that did business deals with him that didn't work out that had threatened him and shit like that.So that's a bad place to start.Half the town hates him.Okay.
55:24That's not good.Then they also have to suspect Patricia, too, because she's got the financial motive because she's not.getting a goddamn thing and now if he's dead she gets $523,000.Absolutely.A little bit different.This is an investigator.They talked to Patricia right away and she told an investigator, quote, he told me divorce was inevitable.He didn't love me and I didn't love him.
55:52But we would handle it like adults.She was saying, look, we knew we were getting divorced, but we decided to not be dicks and not fuck the kids up about it.Yeah, yeah.So these are all within a few days.She has three different police statements here.She professed complete ignorance when asked about the crime.I have no idea who killed him.She said, I quote, I can't imagine anyone doing anything like that.
56:16And at some point, she asked the interrogators, what happened?Can you tell me what happened?I don't even know what happened.She said, what exactly were his injuries and things like that.She's asking the right questions.Those are all the right questions to ask.Absolutely.But January 20th now, this is, you know, less than 48 hours after his body's found.
56:37They also want to execute a search warrant.And they don't say it's to try to pin Patricia up, but it's also just to see if there's anything they can glean from his professional papers or anything like that.So they do a search warrant at the house that Patricia's living in now.And what they find is not so much in the house.It is outside the house.Well, they do end up finding blood in the bathroom of the home.Okay.But that is very tricky.
57:05I challenge...Every bathroom in America.Yeah.I challenge anybody to go over your bathroom with a DNA crime scene crew and not find your blood in there.Your blood is in your bathroom.That's crazy.Yeah.Your blood is in your bathroom.
57:18Everybody says you've cut yourself shaving...If I change the razors, it's a blood back in there.Yeah.Yeah.Dude, it's...We've all done it.It's bad.So that's kind of...
57:28They don't really know much about that, but they find blood outside the house next to the garage in the snow.Okay.They find bloody snow out there.How much?Really pops the red on the white.You know what I mean?And it's type O blood, which is David's blood type.Okay.
57:47So we know that, but we can't find no DNA yet, obviously.And 45% of the population is O positive.So it could be anybody, really.but still they find blood next to the garage that's something to go on now um she they askedpatricia about she said no i don't know anything she said who would do this to david he had noenemies which we know isn't true um she said that uh they said well what about the there's bloodall this blood and she said oh yeah david cut himself when he was fixing the garage door last weekthat's where blood came from that's where those drops came from and then
58:26And they said, well, you know, you hadn't seen him for a weekend.What happened there?And she said, well, I assumed he was with his girlfriend.Oh.And she said, we were working things out for the children.And she didn't mean working them out, like get back together, but they were working out the whole situation.Yeah, keeping it civil for the kids.That's all.
58:45Now, there's a funeral, obviously.It's at the St. James United Church of Christ.Hundreds of people are there.Everybody knows this guy.Huge, giant thing.It's all the elite business people and the people.politicians and everything like that.They're all there, lawyers.
59:01You're that rich in that small town with that many real estate deals.You know every lawyer in town.Absolutely.All those people.Patricia stood at the casket, dressed in all black with the children beside her,greeting everybody and taking condolences from everybody like that.Thomas and Jeffrey are there, his nephews as well.They're all there, standing with the family, being supportive, everything like that.
59:25She, the youngest girl placed a drawing near the casket, a stick figure of the family that says,I love you, Daddy, and crayon.That's heartbreaking.She said, Patricia said, now let's make everybody cry and put that shit out on the finger.That'll break your heart.That is the draw four in Uno for sure.Oh, yeah.Oh, yeah.
59:50That's the point in a funeral when I saw a very hardened mafia.gangster cry at a funeral becausea little girl. For Christ's sake. For Christ's sakethere's a kid's drawing. Oh, it's wild.Yeah. He's offered him a tissue. He goes,I haven't cried in years, I'm fine. And thentwo minutes later he goes, give me one of those.Anyway,
01:00:11oh, it was sad, dude. It was sad.So, then they look athis lawyer, Stephen JayProctor, tells homicidedetectives at the time of his death,David was in the process of cuttingPatricia out of the life insurance.cops don't know that till then and reverting all his life insurance proceeds to a trust for his children.
01:00:31Sure.They said he was killed literally that weekend is when we were doing the paperwork.Yeah.Because remember, he had it on his desk to take care of it on Saturday.So they were like, we were finishing it.They also, so they were like, so this is the day before he was to write his wife out of his insurance deal.Now, on one hand, that looks very bad for Patricia.Sure does.
01:00:54But on the other hand, how the fuck would she know that?Right.He's just doing that in secret.So that's the other thing.So, obviously if you...Yeah, you wouldn't throw that right in her face and then go for dinner.That's going to be an uncomfortable dinner.That pot roast is going to be a little tough that evening, if you know what I mean.
01:01:11So then police, while searching everything, including David's car, his lawyer had some stuff that he handed over to the police too.and they actually find a recorder itself.Through all these tapes, they find all the tapes.Oh, Patricia and Thomas talking.Yeah.They had no fucking idea that that was going on until that.None.They were like, oh, what is this about?
01:01:41Who is this?You're going to do what to his balls?Oh, my God.Did they use Jiz back in 82?I guess they did.I guess that word was very common.So they're like, well, we don't like that at all.That's a shady thing because obviously he was taping her.
01:01:59That means he knew about it.So that could have caused some strife.Or suspected at minimum.Totally.So they talked to nephew Thomas here.And this is kind of a couple days after the murder.They've really found put everything together pretty quick.Within a few days, they have a lot of kind of structure.
01:02:17A real basic structure of, okay, who's it?involved with who and what's because you have to kind of put a family tree together and everythingto figure out who could have done this now they talked to thomas he denied any involvementor knowledge of the murder obviously um he said that yes i did have a romantic liaison withaunt patricia though he said aunt patricia i hope i hope he did i really hope he did he probablycalled her that yeah yeah um he said but i didn't kill anybody yeah i was banging my aunt butyou know what the hell so he uh he hethen says, it's all I'll tell you, I was banging her. I didn't have anything to do with the murder.
01:02:55I like an attorney. I'm not answering any more questions. Good answer. Which is fine.I gave you the answer, the things you need to know. No, leave me alone.But then shortly after that, he does a second one. They give him Miranda warnings, and he pretty much does the same thing.Yeah. Had an affair with her. Didn't kill him. Like a lawyer. That's it. Then they end up giving him a polygraph test.okay, which I'm not sure of the results ofbecause in court documents that it's not admissible.So a cop basically has to leak it later or somethingis the only way you're going to know.
01:03:32But they give him a polygraph test.Now, March 6, 1982,that's when they're really looking over how broke he is,how broke David actually was,in papers filed in Montgomery County Orphans Court.Orphans Court.What is that?I don't know.
01:03:50Court for orphans.The orphans get their own.It's how they get anything, man.What do you think these orphans have a hole?They need a court, man.Without this, they have nothing.No one's paying attention to the orphans.It's a hard knock life for them.
01:04:02So he says that his estate is insolvent and all assets of the estate have been required to pay taxes and estate administrative expenses.So no matter what will there was, there is nothing left in the estate.It's a wash.Wow.Yeah.So they said record show his holdings, including the historic St. Peter's Village in Chester County, once totaled 20 million, but now his debts are about 20 million.Oh, Jesus.So really, he had a $40 million swing.
01:04:33That's crazy.He went from up 20 to down 20.That's...He had 20, spent it all and spent 20 more.Wow.It's crazy that you have to have 20 to be able to get 20 more, though, to owe anybody.Yeah.You know what I mean?
01:04:47Right.And he did.that because he did that based on property value. Property value plummets. Now he has nothing.Exactly. That's why real estate's a motherfucker. You never know. That's a force is outside of you.So the will that he had dated August 24th, 1981, called for nearly all of the estate to go into trusts for the four children.He left his wife an amount exactly equal to the amount of my estate to which she would have been entitled to if I made no provision for her, quote unquote.under state law, a widow not provided for in a will may claim one third of the estate.So if you have, if you're married to someone, you die, no matter where you gave your money to,
01:05:27she can claim a third of that.Okay.Yeah.Which makes sense because you're married, which means that some of that's hers too.Sure.You know, it's an equal thing.So in addition to the St. Peter's Village, he owns several travel agencies,apartment buildings and other properties in the area, including the weekly Guardian newspaper,
01:05:44published in Pots Town.35 of his other properties were auctioned off earlier in the year here to satisfy$12 million in debts to the Red Hill Savings and Loan.So they're trying to square his account, basically.Now, April 1982, okay, few months later.Remember, he has a brother Robert?David does.It's his younger brother, Robert.
01:06:09What a weird guy.What a strange family.David is this crazy eccentric PimpMobile drive andreal estate mogul. His brother's a big game hunter.Oh, is that right? A big game hunter. Yes, which is very, very weird. He idolizes his olderbrother, David, by the way. Big game in fucking Pennsylvania? Or he leaves to? No, he goes to Africa.Oh, boy. To kill big game with a bow and arrow. Oh my God. Yeah, he hunts very big animals withbow and arrows. Dropping giraffes with a bow. Fucking insane. Um, yeah, that's crazy.
01:06:44Some of his African exploits and safaris with a bow and arrow appeared in the newspaper in 1966,describing his killing of an elephant, rhino, lion, leopard, sable antelope, zebra, and Kate Buffalo, all with a bow and arrow.He took an elephant with a bow and arrow.The fuck you kill a rhino with a bow and arrow.Yeah, their skin alone should break that shit.I don't even know how you would do that.That's a lot of bows.Or why you'd want to, to be honest with you.
01:07:16I don't know.But people are crazy.And back then, there wasn't an animal rights movement, really.You almost got to blot out the sun with the arrows to take down a fucking elephant, right?It has to be like a whole volley of them from over the hill.Yeah.Jesus.Like whatever happened to Custer has to happen there, you know?
01:07:35Yeah, the 300.Yeah.Do some serious shit.Now, the Pots Town police chief says that Robert here has had the.some mental health problems.Sure.Especially since his brother died.He said he's been having a hard time.
01:07:51People said that Robert couldn't sleep.He couldn't eat.He kept saying that he should have protected David.He said he knew something was coming.He should have protected him.He said he should have seen it coming.You knew.He said he blamed himself for not intervening in all of this that happened.
01:08:06It's all his fault.So what he did was one Monday afternoon, he went to one of the properties thatthat David owned Swinehart building.I guess he had been,Robert had been admitted to the Philadelphia Veterans Hospitalwith his mother's assistance about the timethat David was murdered a little bit afterwards.He was home on his first furlough
01:08:28and was supposed to return to the hospital Monday evening.So instead, Monday afternoon,his mom dropped him off at the Swinehart buildingin the mid-afternoon because he wanted to lookfor some of his personal belongingsthat he had stored there.he never returnedso she sought help to find him
01:08:46they found him in a storage closetwith a self-inflicted rifle woundblew his brains outoh my godin his brother's storage closetwhat the fuckyep that was one of the things he had in therewas a rifle one of his hunting rifles
01:08:59and he turned it on himselfand he left a suicide notethat says simply quotecan't live with the guiltoh Jesusfeels terribly didn't protect himYeah, and it's his younger brothers, not even his older brother.So that's crazy.
01:09:14It's around this time that Thomas, the nephew, nephew Thomas will call him, receives a target letter, which target letter summons him before the grand jury and advises him of his right to counsel.He appears before an investigating grand jury represented by counsel.So this is basically an inquiry.When they can't figure out what's going on, they'll do a grand jury inquiry because.Because you're under oath in front of the grand jury.So that's what it is.If you're in an interrogation room, you're not under oath.You can lie all you want.
01:09:49It's not illegal.That's fine.But when they get you on the stand and the grand jury, now it's illegal to lie to them.You know, you hurt the cop's feeling.That's another wire thing.You lie to us, you hurt our feelings.You lie to them.It's perjury.
01:10:00It's one of those things.So he appears before that.Nothing comes of this grand jury inquest.by the summer, the investigation is going absolutely nowhere.Nowhere.They're stuck.Stalled out, stuck in the quicksand, man, spinning wheels.Patricia had stopped talking to cops.
01:10:21They had tried to talk to her a bunch of times.She had taken a polygraph test, and then she lawyered up, and that was it.She got a guy named Frank D. Simone, who was one of Pennsylvania's best criminal defense attorneys,and he told her, you don't say shit.And she said, I don't say shit.But, you know, Thomas has an alibi.His brother has an alibi.The wife fuckers, they have bar receipts and witnesses who'd seen them around town that night.
01:10:45Though nobody could, because everybody was out drinking, nobody could pin down exactly what times they saw them.But they were like, yeah, I definitely saw them that night around the area.They have wiretap recordings that David made, but they're inadmissible.You can't bring that into court.So you can't arrest anybody based on that because you can't use that.court. So that's bad. They never found any kind of murder weapon, a knife or a bat.So they really have nothing at this point. Nothing. Absolutely who gots to go on.There's a detective who says he knew Patricia was involved in his heart. He said, I knew,
01:11:19I thought she was involved. He said his gut, his 30 years of police work told him that this is afamily thing. This is not an outside deal. All the stabbing's all that. It's too personal.It's not business. But he said, I can't fuckingprove anything. I have no proof whatsoever. Case goes cold. Case is totally cold here.Now, we got nothing and nowhere to go and nothing to build on. So Patricia collects the$523,000 insurance payout. Sure. She kept the house. Sure. Kept the cars. Who else is going todrive it? That's it. Kept, you know, she's a grieving widow going around, you know, just doing allthat dressed in black for a while the whole deal
01:12:04Thomas nephew Thomas stillcame around being the helpful nephewlet me help you fix the decklet me know let me help you changethat light bulb let me help you with that pussythere's a lot of help that needs going on around thereyeah so who let me help youwith those underwear they're up too high let's take
01:12:21them down let me help you off with those panties come hereso sometimes he'd stay latesometimes he'd stay oversleep over the neighbors would bewhispering but you knowthey all felt bad because she's a widowand they didn't want to say anything badlike inappropriate about her.
01:12:38So they were like, well, maybe he's just helping her outthis young guy.Maybe he's just a real nice guyand really loved his uncle.Then in November of 1983,Thomas's brother, Jeffrey,David's other nephew,he's the older brother too.
01:12:54Thomas is younger than Jeffrey.He's a mess, by the way.He has nothing going for himself.He's 25 years old,going absolutely nowhere.He's working like odd jobs and doesn't have even like a regular job.He gets in like bar fights all the time.He's got a criminal record for a bunch of petty thefts and shit like that.
01:13:16He's just trash.Yeah.Jeffrey's trash.And for some reason they decide to bring Jeffrey in and sit him down in an interrogation room.This is almost two years after the murder.So what the hell?They decide, I think he's the weak link.Let's talk to him.
01:13:33Let's talk to him.They're questioning him one hour, two hour, three hours.Now they're questioning him about an unrelated burglary charge.That's why he's in the office.But they're questioning, they didn't want to bring him in to talk to him about the burglary.They're like, that's an excuse to bring him in.We want to talk to him about David Swinhardt.So the detective here, he said, they're talking about this burglary.
01:13:57They're going through all this.And then he says out of nowhere, quote, Jeffrey, we know about David Swinhardt.We know you were involved, but we also know you weren't the mastermind.You help us and we'll help you.Through an accusation in there.Through not even an, we know, not did you?We already know.Listen, we know you're involved, but we're aware.
01:14:16We know you're not the mastermind, so we're not looking to really crucify you.You help us and we'll keep you out of trouble, basically.We've got some info.Leave you guessing what info we have.It took about Jeffrey looked at them for about two seconds and then started singing like afucking bird.Wow.Singing his ass off.
01:14:35He's got a lot to say about the whole thing, and we'll get into what he said.He said his brother Thomas was involved, and it was him and Thomas, and there's these twoother guys, and there's all this big thing.And they said, okay, you talking to us telling us means absolutely nothing.Do you have a murder weapon?No.Okay.Do you have this?
01:14:53Do you have that?Okay.Do you have anything with your brother's fingerprints on it?No.Okay.So what you're telling us now is useless.You might as well be saying it out of your asshole like a.Ventura. It doesn't matter.
01:15:03So they said, you're going to wear a wire.That's what you're going to do.You're going to go undercover.So nephew Jeffrey says, okay, I'll wear a wire.I'll do it.Yep.So that's what he's going to do.To record conversations between him and his brother, that's what this is.
01:15:19They want to, they want his brother to say something incriminating.So for the next four months,what?Every time he sees his brother, he's got a wire on.It's recording.It's recording.Boy, four months.Everything.
01:15:33Family gatherings.Thanksgiving dinner, meeting up at the bar.Just total asshole.He's doing it.Disgusting.So the state has to follow protocols here.They had to get the district attorney approval, written consent from Jeffrey,a limited scope, only conversations between the brothers, nothing else.
01:15:55And no recordings in Thomas's home unless they get a warrant.Okay.Which is weird because it doesn't matter.It's his voice you're getting.It's a strange.That's a strange.That's just to make sure.That's one of those just so it doesn't get thrown out.
01:16:11We'll make sure to get a warrant for his house.Make sure there's nothing environmental that happens in there that get it tossed.Something.Well, also if they would say somehow like he had a reasonable expectation of privacy in his own home.Yeah.Which, I mean, you do for search and seizure, but a wiretaps a different thing.It's a gray area that they figured let's make it not so gray.So they end up getting some interesting shit on here.
01:16:36This is from November 83 to March 84.Here is one from the tavern that they're hanging out at, the bar.Jeffrey says, and this is so funny,whenever there's someone like on a wire trying to bring up a past crime,it's never natural.It's never casual as fuck.They're always like, hey, so remember that time we did this knockoff?And we knocked off that casino
01:16:59First line Jeffrey saysYou ever think about that nightJeffrey?Jeffrey, you idiotThomas saysWhat night?Why are you wearing a wire?Yeah, get up, I'm patting you down right now
01:17:15Throw in the trash, you son of a bitchJesus ChristThese guys aren't Italian, I'll tell you that much right nowYou ever think about that night?Why are you snitching, motherfucker?Hey, who are you fucking talking to?a cop in here? Hey, fuck you. Is they tearing his shirt off? Where is it? Where's the wire?So, yeah, what night is Thomas's response? Because this is two and a half fucking years later, two years later.
01:17:38Yeah. So what night? Last week, what are we talking about? Jeffrey says, you know what night.Oh, Jesus. Thomas says, we don't talk about that. Yeah. Rather than saying, I don't know what you're talking about. He says, we don't talk about that.Then, rather than Jeffrey, you know, back and down a little bit, maybe trying another angle, Jeffrey says, Patricia's still paying you?Oh.Thomas's response, shut up.Shut the fuck up.Shut up.Don't talk.
01:18:13There could be anybody listening.Why do you keep making me say things that are incriminating?Why is that?So that's December 83.January 84 in Jeffrey's car.Jeffrey says the cops came around again.Thomas says about whatJeffrey says
01:18:28Uncle DavidOhEven worse they call him Uncle DavidDid they solve it yet?Well Thomas says they got nothingOhJeffrey saysYou sure
01:18:39And Thomas saidThey'd have moved by nowIf they didYeah it's almost three yearsWhy are you talking about it?Yeah stop talking about itThat's the problem thoughYou can't ever be comfortable
01:18:50With getting away with murderBecause againGo back to the wireas Bunk says, murder, stay murder.And it always keeps coming back.It'll keep coming back.Then February 1984, outside of Patricia's house, they're talking.Jeffrey says, she looks good for a widow.
01:19:09Oh, boy.To which Thomas says, watch your mouth.I'm fucking her.You shut up.Jeffrey says, I'm just saying,523 grand buys a lot of happiness.And Thomas says, quote, you got your cut.Oh.
01:19:25Like, don't complain.You got your cut.And Jeffrey says, not enough.And Thomas says, quote, you want to end up like Uncle David?Oh.Now, none of these are, I murdered him and it was wonderful.But it's all, there's, we know where the fuck to look now.There is a lot of smoke.
01:19:44There's a big fire in there somewhere.You know what I mean?So then they said, went on where Thomas says, the only thing you have to worryabout is what I gave you.That's if you're sure that's taken care of.You burnt that, right?That's what he says.Well, Jeffrey says, with the clothes in it?
01:20:05And his brother says, Thomas says, yeah.And Jeffrey says, with the blood, the pants in it, and the rope, everything's gone.Yeah.Okay.Thomas said, well, no.And begin saying something, but then he's interrupted.and Jeffrey says the only thing that's still not gone is the money,I still have that buried.
01:20:27What should I do with that?And Thomas says, oh, spend it.Get rid of it.Don't hold on to it.It's fucking spend it.Yeah, they're not looking for serial numbers on it.What are you talking about, you idiot?Who would, why would you bury that?
01:20:38That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard in my life.When it's buried, it becomes useless eventually.You got to put that stuff into the system.Also, yeah, also, it looks really suspicious that you buried a bunch of cash out in the yard.That looks suspicious to me.Anything buried looks suspicious.Less than it's a body in a fucking park.Or the family dog.
01:20:59Yeah, right.That's it.They have to be put down.Otherwise, it's suspicious to shit.Yes.So that is late 83, early 84.Nothing comes of this, though.They get all these recordings, but it's nothing that's enough to really have anything to take him to court with.
01:21:17Okay.There's enough to arrest him.You know, he's involved.but definitely not enough to convict him with this.That's not going to convict him.So then 1985 comes around.All right.Holy shit.
01:21:30Terry Lee Mout, M-A-U-T-E, Terry with a Y.He's born in 1956.He's a small-time local shit-heel criminal,just a dirtbag, check forger, thief, petty theft kind of guy.That's the type of guy he is.years in this area.Now, an inmate from a county jail, the York County Jail, approaches the police and says,there's this guy named Terry Mout or Mott that told me some crazy shit that you guys
01:22:08might want to talk to him about.Okay.So you should probably talk to Terry Mout.Now, Terry Mout, they talked to him and he goes, I know what you're speaking of, but I can'ttell you anything really. I don't really know anything, but I know somebody who does.Yeah. And that is, you need to talk to Neanderthal Man. That's what you got to talk to.Neanderthal Man. Neanderthal Man is a guy's nickname. Neanderthal Man. All right. Captain Caveman.That is literally this man's nickname. He said, you need to talk to Arthur Hall, better known as Neanderthal Man. That's what we all call him. He's a big giant 300-pound, kind of a,
01:22:50dirtbag bouncer at this bar they all hang out at.He's born in 1957.He's just in and out of county jail.One of these guys.Sure.Dirtbag, armed robbery, he's been related to or arrested for thefts, robberies, drugs.You name it, all that bullshit here.So May 10th, 1985, they decide, we're going to talk to old Neanderthal and see what he has to say.
01:23:16Okay.So they do.They've been heard from this Terry MountThat this is the guy to talk toSo they get him in thereThis is a giant guyLike whoaWhat the fuck and he's there
01:23:31So they tell him listenCooperation's gonna go a long way with youThey areThey said without itThey said you could be looking at the electric chairOh yeahYou could be taken away from your familyPut in the electric chair
01:23:47he said,these things could happen.Sure.These things could happen.So at this point,he admitted he's a drug dealerand all this type of stuff.We don't care about that.
01:23:58It doesn't matter.Jill, all the drugs you want.Don't give a shit.They said, you've repeatedly lied.You've denied any involvement in all of this.It's at this point,with the electric chair and all this pressure,Neanderthal man breaks down
01:24:11and gets emotional,according to the cops.Yeah.And he says,Hall tells them,It's time to come clean.He said, it's just time to come clean.He said, I got to do it.
01:24:24And he said, I got information about a murder, the Swinehart murder.And they go, we fucking know that.Let's hear it, buddy.Tell us more.Here, what the fuck happened?So he said it was November of 81, a couple months before the murders.He said, Thomas was sitting in nephew Thomas, sorry, sat nursing a beer, listening to his olderbrother, Jeffrey, complained that he was broke.
01:24:47Jeffrey was had very little going on for himselfand basically their uncle Davidhad all these millions of dollars and they had nothingso they were talking about that.At one point Thomas tells his brotherPatricia needs helpand Jeffrey said what kind of helpThomas said the kind of help that pays money.
01:25:08So Jeffrey said well I'm always interested in thatyeah so at that pointI guess both the brothersthe DeBlaise brothers and Terry Mout all approach Arthur Hall here, Neanderthal man.They approach him, and he's working at the bar as a bouncer, and they asked him,will you help us in a robbery?This is right up Neanderthal's alley, so he says, shit, yeah, I'll help with a robbery.So he said the four of us made a plan to go to the home that Patricia and David lived at.
01:25:43He said, quote, we met at the High Street Tavre.in around 8.30 p.m. on January 15th.He said the DeBlaze brothers, me, Terry Mout.Thomas got a phone call, I'm guessing from Patricia.He said it was time.Oh.We drove to the house in Thomas's green pickup, parked down the street,walked up to the property.
01:26:07Jeffrey had a baseball bat.Thomas had a knife.You see where this is going?He said Jeffrey jumped out of the shadows with his baseball bat.and started wailing on him.Oh, Jesus.He said the first blow caught David in the back of the head,dropped him down to his knees, nailed him.
01:26:25He said up to going into it,Hall said he thought it was a robbery the whole time.He said that Jeffrey on the way over there had told him,if he gives me a hard time, you know,I'll fucking kill him if he gives me a hard time.Thomas had replied, that would eliminate all of our problems,all of us and mine and hers.Yeah, yeah.
01:26:46So Hall was like, I don't like the way that sounds, he said.Right.So he said they, you know, he said it was the brothers who committed the murder.They hid in the bushes near the garage until he came out.They jumped out.Jeffrey hit him in the head with a bat.He screamed and fell down in the driveway.And Jeffrey kept hitting him in the head with the back.
01:27:06He said this while Thomas, then Thomas took the bat and started hitting him while Jeffrey started stabbing him.Sure.Okay. So there's blood everywhere, obviously.Thomas is hitting him. All together, seven blows to the skull, but he's still alive.That's when Jeffrey has a 10-inch hunting knife.Oh, boy.And stabs David in the back a few times.And wherever he could, he's just stabbing all around.
01:27:37And there's a coat on and all that kind of thing, too.Arthur also said, then Terry kicked him, because Terry Mout is there too, and said,make sure the son of a bitch is dead.Oh, boy.Blood pulled in the snow.He's like there's steam rising from knife wounds.It's creepy shit.Now, he said,
01:27:58Arthur said, when Jeffrey hit him from behind,just destroyed his skull.Thomas jumped in, took the bat, kept swinging.Then Jeffrey started stabbing.It was, it was butchery.Yeah.He said, then they searched his pockets,took his wallet,
01:28:15made it look like a robbery, but left an expensive watch and also more cash on it.They didn't find.So then after rifling his pockets, they said, make sure he's dead.And Hall said then they loaded him into the Cadillac and that he and Jeffrey drove away to dump the car and the body.So it was Hall and Jeffrey driving in the Cadillac with David in the back seat there.So they said, Terry Mout and Thomas left.in the truck. Obviously, that's parked down the street.Sure.
01:28:48He said, uh, Hall said, I drove the Cadillac to the alley with Jeffrey.He kept stabbing him during the drive, like he couldn't stop.He said that he reached into the back seat and started stabbing him again, saying, you didn't like our family anyway.Okay.Um, so they left him in the back seat of the Cadillac.Uh, Jeffrey kept stabbing his body, leaving more blood evidence all over the car.Yeah.They left it in an alley behind one of his own apartment complexes in Pots Town, and there was that.
01:29:20Now, then they scattered.Thomas went back to hang out with Patricia.And Jeremy went back to the bar and to establish an alibi.And Mout and Arthur Hall just went about their business as well.So May 11th, the very next day, Thomas and Jeff are arrested.And Terry, too, they end up finding as well.Jeff is already in custody.they bring in Thomas now.
01:29:46They had apparently a lot of luck just before 3 a.m.On their way to look for Thomas, they were literally going to like check out that bar,check out this place he hangs out at.I heard he hangs out with a chick over here.They stopped at 7-Eleven to get cigarettes.The cops did.And as they were walking into the store, here's Thomas walking away from the counter.And they were like, oh, all right, there you are.
01:30:11You're under arrest, asshole.Perfect.We were just going out looking for you.Right.So he's charged with, he just said, I wanted my lawyer.That's all he would say.He's charged with homicide, robbery, theft, voluntary and involuntary manslaughter,aggravated and simple assault, recklessly endangering another person, possession of an instrument of crime and criminal conspiracy.
01:30:34That's a lot.Terry was picked up, Jeff was already in custody because he was state's evidence at this point.Terry was picked up at a girl.Girlfriend's House in Lower Potsgrove Township.And Arthur was already in jail on that robbery thing, that beef, burglary or whatever it was.He's transferred from a county jail into protective custody now because he told.So the press is like, is that it?You arrested four fucking people and we didn't even, who are these people?
01:31:04What's going on?What's going on?Are there more?And the police said that there is a fifth suspect, possibly a woman.possibly a woman.They said no motive that we could make public.They just said this was a long, arduous, difficult investigation.It took more than three years, and there were as many blind alleys in this thing as you could possibly conceive of.
01:31:27Why do they have to do that?He was found dead in a fucking blind alley.Why do they?Too many holes in the whole thing.Too many gaping wounds in this thing.I don't like it.They can't help it.It's, dude, it's every show we do.
01:31:40We've been beating up.this one for a while now.There's been a lot of holes in it.A lot of holes.Why do they always say something?Something that relates to, I swear to God, it's just that you can't help.It's got to be a mental thing somewhere.Yeah.
01:31:53They have to bring it up.It's like why you thought Flipper played for the dolphins.Yeah.You know what I mean?It's the same thing.It's just so much that's just, your brain's making, looking for connections.Yeah.To make things make sense.
01:32:05A mapped.Yeah.Yeah.It's too much of a question.Your brain's always.looking to put shit together to sell puzzle, whatever it is, and they'll make a puzzle out of nothing.Now, Patricia, the brothers are going to be awaiting trial in the Montgomery County prison or jail.Patricia attended the hearing for the Jeffrey and Thomas, you know, playing the widow, saying, you know, my husband, these, poor, these guys did it.
01:32:31When reporters asked for comment, she dabbed her eyes with a hanker chip and said, quote, I just want justice for David.Who doesn't?She just, we all want justice for David at this point.June 1985, the wiretap wars start.Here we go.This is going to last over a decade.The wars over the wiretops.What?
01:32:52Really?Oh, yeah.His attorney, Samuel Stratton, filed to suppress all evidence from the body wire recordings from Jeffrey and the illegal wiretapping of Patricia's phone.Okay.From David.He said, none of this is about it.The wire tap suppression, the Pennsylvania law on the phone one was clear.That's suppressed.
01:33:17Yeah, even though he was dead, his illegal recordings couldn't be used.But the body wire was different, and this began a huge fucking thing that went all the way to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.Wow.In June of 85, Judge Horace Davenport presided over the defense arguing that Thomas's Sixth Amendment right to counsel had been violated.He asked for a lawyer during his initial questioning.Any evidence gathered after that request should be inadmissible.The prosecution countered that Thomas hadn't been arrested or charged when the bodywire recordings were made.No formal proceedings had begun.
01:33:55The Sixth Amendment didn't apply to him at that point.The judge suppressed everything.Really?Really?Yes, both of them.Jeffries and the truth.Not allowed to do it.It's at that point that they.
01:34:09offer Thomas a deal because it's going to be hard to convict him without the wiretap shitbecause it looks like co-conspirators blaming each other at that point sure so they offer himfive to ten years as a as a plea huh as a plea five to ten years and you testify against patriciaokay and he said nope fuck you i'm good really yeah five to ten with a murder rap hanging over youOkay.Okay.So September 1985, they take Jeffrey, despite his cooperate.This is the wildest thing.
01:34:45Out of everybody in this, Jeffrey has it the worst out of all these people.Okay.He not only was the only one to admit to anything for a long time.He actually cooperated with the police, wore a wire for four fucking months around everywhere, did all of this.And they're going.for the death penalty on him.Oh, my God.I'm like, what will you do of you?
01:35:10Thank you for the info.We're about to murk you.That is wild.Can you imagine?That's fascinating.We've heard of it once before, but it was like something really bad.Yeah, really, really bad.This guy's like kind of your second string murderer in this case.
01:35:24It's weird.So they have Arthur Hall's testimony.They have Jeffrey's own confession in this, which they told him they were going to helphim out.Right.This is not helping him out at all.They have them this faster.And they allow the body wire recordings in Jeffrey's trial.
01:35:42So he can, he's the guy who made them to, he only admitted his guilt on these tapes to try to get Thomas to talk.And instead they're using this against him.Which is really fucked up.Really fucked up.Jeffrey's defense attorney tries to argue diminished capacity.No one would be this stupid, Your Honor.Nobody.He's got to be.
01:36:03It's impossible.It's got to be a medical thing.It's like he's medically stupid it has to be.He said, Jeffrey was manipulated not only by his younger brother, but his aunt as well who he trusted.Arthur Hall testifies on the Anderthal man.Yeah.He said he and the three defendants met at future defendants, met at the bar.He said that, you know, received the phone call.
01:36:27They jumped into the car.They go over to the house.He said, I heard some footsteps.I seen Mr. Swinehart coming.I seat it.This is in court.Jeff ran up behind him and hit him in the head with a bat.He screamed and went down.
01:36:43Jeff hit him a couple more times with the bat.Then Tommy hit him a couple times with the bat.Terry kicked him a few times.Jeff stabbed him a few times.Then Jeff started going through his pockets.And I saw him put something in his pocket.It's going to wire the dead man now.Hall said that he and the brothers put them in the backseat of the Cadillac.
01:37:04then we know that he and he and Jeffrey drove it and Terry and Thomas.All the T-names went in the other car.So,Jeffrey really, as his own words,are being used against him,hardcore here.When they say can and will be used against you,they fucking mean it.
01:37:21He is found guilty of first-degree murder.Oh, boy.That is wild.Holy shit.And sentencing comes around here.You, sir.May fuck off, life without parole.Okay, well, I mean, didn't get the death penalty.
01:37:41But they got you.They got you good.Yeah.Life without parole.That is a lot.You are in trouble.Yeah.That is when another guy steps forward here.
01:37:52A cellmate of Terry Mout comes forward.Yeah.And he said, so this is the first initial, the way Terry Mout got into the story was a cellmate talking to the cops.Right.Now we got another cellmate, a different one.He said an inmate came forward and asked police if they were interested in a story that he'd been told by a cellmate.Okay.And they said, sure, why not?
01:38:17So he said, well, after he tells the story, they say that his story offered significant bits and pieces that indicated it was good stuff.Good stuff.Good stuff.Like it's a bag of Coke.Yeah.I licked a little.Put it on my gums.It's good stuff.
01:38:32It's fine.He said this was the first indication that there was a possibility we could straighten the circle out and get going.And in fact, that's what happened.Because in October 1985, based on this new information, they're going to take Terry to trial as well.Terry now.And we have Arthur saying he kicked him and said make sure he's dead and he was the guy.He was in it.You know what I mean?
01:38:57According to Arthur.So this cellmate's name is John Gladfelter.I'm glad you felt you too, John.Jesus.He testifies that Terry told him that Patricia had paid Terry to kill her husband.He got paid money by Patricia.It was only about two grand, apparently, he got.1,500 to 2,000.
01:39:20Gladfelter, yeah, he said that Mott described the murder to him while they were in county prison in March.Gladfelter, who's serving a two and a half to five-year sentence for statutory.rape and retail theft.I hope not at the same time.Honestly.That'd be weird.Said that the conversation with Mout arosewhile the two were discussing a book,
01:39:43The Shoemaker,about convicted Philadelphia murdererJoseph Callenger.That guy is fucking nuts, by the way.Really?If you've never heard of him.Callenger?Look, with a K.
01:39:55K-A-L-L-I-N-G-R.We'll do a bonus episode on him.He is absolutely unhinged, man.Anyway, he said, Gladfelter said, I told him I couldn't believe how brutal these murders were.Mount said he could tell me about a murder.Okay.And then he said that Mount said this guy lived in a big house and that they were paid a lot of money to kill this guy.He said that after they killed Swinehart, he had a lot of money for dope for a while.
01:40:25Oh.Yeah.So he got something out of it.You got a couple grand out of it.Yeah, Mount did.When asked by the prosecutor, if Mount told him.him who paid him for the killing.He said, quote, yeah, it was, he said it was Swinehart's wife.
01:40:38Oh.Yeah.That's not good.Arthur Hall also testifies.He, his attorney, though, Mout's attorney attacks Arthur Hall's telling of this as Neanderthalman's telling as totally incredible.It's totally incredible.He said, and he had said on the stand, he killed.
01:41:02kicked David's corpse to, quote,make sure the son of a bitch is dead, as he said.Anyway,Mout also has an alibi witness, too, though.Donna Fitzgerald, a bartender at the bar they were all hanging out at,she testified she served Terry drinks until 2 a.m. on January 15.And her log book confirms it and time-stamped receipts back it up.The prosecution argued that Terry had plenty of time to participate in the murder
01:41:32at 8.30 and return to the bar.Wow. Plenty of time.There's no, in that window,there's no receipts. So,he had an hour to do this. It's out ofyour mind. Terry gets up andtestifies.He takes the witness stand
01:41:49and he says thathe told Gladfelter, the cellmate,everything I knew about the case,but that I never confessed to himthat I was involved in. I justtold him all I knew about it.He said it's ridiculous. He said thathe said that Jeffrey had admitted to him that he, his brother and Neanderthal man had killed Swinehart.
01:42:09Oh.Terry said the conversation took place while they were all taking heroin in Terry's pickup truck behind the Pots Town YMCA.That's all class right there.Let's go in my pickup behind the YMCA and shoot some dope.Yeah, that's great.Talk about murder.Talk about some murder.So during the closing arguments, the defense rips Neanderthal.
01:42:32testimony. They said that Hall had arranged a, quote, sweetheart of a deal with the districtattorney's office in exchange for his testimony against his co-defendants. The lawyer also said that becauseof his cooperation, Hall would not have to plead guilty to murder and that he would be permittedto serve any sentence he receives in a county prison, which is safer than a state facility.Okay. The prosecution, by the way, the prosecutor's name is Jay McNulty, which is hilarious.Really? McNulty is on the case.Jay McNulty too, Jimmy McNulty.So he said that he concedes that in his closing statement that his office had made the deal with Arthur Hall, yes, but argued that his testimony was corroborated by physical evidence taken by state police investigators and Jeffrey's fucking story and wiretap.
01:43:23He said our theory is that this was not a conspiracy to rob, but a conspiracy to kill David Swinehart for reasons I hope that are very.apparent to you.Verdict comes in.Here we go.Twelve member jurydeliberates for 14 hoursover two days.That seems like more than you would need,
01:43:44doesn't it?Yeah.The jury foremanannounces, now he, by the way,is up for first degree murder,second degree murder,and third degree murder,voluntary, involuntary,
01:43:57manslaughter, robbery,conspiracy.He is foundnot guilty of everything.Really?Everything.I don't even know if that's wild.How do you do that?
01:44:10I don't know.I don't know.There's evidence.All right.Evidence to multiple people testifying against you.That's wild.As the jury foreman, Norman Marlin, Jr., announced not guilty to the charge of first-degree murder,Mout, a short, wiry man with neatly trimmed dark hair and mustache, closed his
01:44:32eyes and broke into a slight smile.After the verdicts, all the charges were announced,Mount, after the verdicts to all the charges,Mount turned to his attorney, Richard Winters,next to him at the defense table, shook his hand and told him,because he's a, he's an appointed, he said,I'd be worth it to pay you for that.I would have paid for that.
01:44:52I wish I could pay you.If I had it.The courtroom erupts into chaos when he's found not guilty.Patricia faints.Really?She faints in the courtroom.The Swinehart family is very upset.After the jurors were dismissed, the judge and Swinehart's mother, Viola, here, Patricia's mother,
01:45:13I'm sorry, David's mother, Viola, walked into the corridor outside the courtroom where she paused for a moment and then said,what kind of jury is this?What kind of bullshit is this?What kind of bullshit?She said, I'm just completely surprised.I don't know what else to say.She was there the entire trial, and she said it was crazy.Mout's lawyer said, I think that this jury came to the conclusion that Gladfeltter wasn't lying,
01:45:40but that he had just mistaken what Mout may have told him in jail.Mount acknowledged that, yes, I did, I just said I didn't do it.I told him what I knew.Problem is, before he can even leave the court, he's arrested again immediately on unrelated forgery and theft charges.He's always got something hanging over.You're going to jail today, no matter what.Either way, you're not going home.He's going to end up being in jail for the next 20 years in prison he'll spend based on this shit, not even based on murder.
01:46:07Wow.Got away with that, but you're getting 20 anyway.1986, Thomas has his wiretap appeals.The Commonwealth appeals the decision to suppress all the wiretaps to the Supreme Court.The Supreme Court, they affirm that David's recordings of Patricia over the phone are still out.but now they reverse the wire,the wire, Jeffrey wear in the wire,and now those recordings can be used against Thomas.
01:46:35Okay.Okay.So, here we go.1987, Thomas's cellmate comes forward.Stop talking to people in jail.Just stop it.I get that it's late and you're boredand you feel like no one can hear you
01:46:49because you're literally in the belly of the beast.I understand it, but shut the fuck up.This is John Hall.relation to Neanderthal man, by the way.Different Hall.Or oats?Or oats.None of them.
01:47:05Darrell, not related to Darrell, Arthur, any of them.I wonder if Arthur Hall was Darrell's father, maybe.Do we know that?That's not true for sure.I don't know.I got to find out if any of these people are related to Darrell.This girl's name was Sarah Sky, too.Sky.
01:47:18Sky.Was it Hall and O.Sarah Smile.Yeah. That's funny.It's not for me.Sarah.That's fun.Yeah.
01:47:27I'm telling you, there's a, it's all involved.It's all involved.So March of 87, police receive a statement from John Hall who'd been incarcerated with Thomas in the North Hampton County Prison while he's awaiting whatever the fuck they're going to do.Whatever they're going to get.Hall said that Thomas told him, quote, he wanted to kill David Swinehart so that he could be with Patricia Swinehart and have David Swinehart's money.Oh, that's all of it.Yeah.In June, Thomas's trial is finally set to start.
01:48:00Here we go.Finally.That's when his lawyer, the Samuel Stratton, this guy is a crafty son of a bitch.He puts a second motion in to suppress based on Commonwealth v. Schaefer, which was a new case about privacy rights and consensual recordings that kind of threw everything up into the air.Okay.The judge was swayed by the law because it's an evolving law and didn't want to get it all fucked up.on appeal so he suppressed the body wire evidence again.Oh, boy. So now they're not going to bring him to trial. They've got to get this figured out first. So they appeal it. There's another reversal.
01:48:34Now it's allowed in. So then they take it to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania and the Pennsylvania Supreme Court dismissed the appeal as improvidently granted and the body wire recordings would be admissible.Okay. Now, he refiles in April of 89 toa second petition to the PennsylvaniaSupreme Court, then they justsit on the case for like two years.Why? Nobody can do anythingwhile they sit on the case.We're talking
01:49:06more than that.Oh, Christ, almost four years they siton this fucking thing. Okay.1990, Patriciais, she's going about her life.Thomas is sitting in the jail still.He's on no bailfor the last five years.
01:49:22So, sitting there.Now, Patricia, she keeps the house.She kept the insurance money, her kids, cars, all that.She's been financially secure.She's seen around Pots Town, shopping, going to PTA meetings, living a normal life, doing her thing.By the way, she's not fucking him anymore.Thomas and Patricia, they've been done together.Yeah, well, he can't help anymore.
01:49:47The problem is she spent all this fucking money already.She spent legal fees for her own protection.to hire a lawyer. Private school for the kids. She's had to maintain the house and, you know,all that kind of shit. By 1990s, she's pretty much broke. Uh-oh. She's pretty much dead fucking broke.Then May of 1991 happens. Yeah. Okay. Terry Mout, by the way, who testified at his own trialsaying he didn't do anything and all that kind of thing. Well, the, in May of 1991, the state statute oflimitations on perjury expires for him.Okay.
01:50:26On his testimony.So now he comes forward with the truth.So Terry, he's got a story to tell here.Yeah, he said he was recruited by the brothers.He said, Jeffrey told him initially about this in December of 81.He said, you know, you want to help us kill this David Swinehart?So it was from the beginning a murder.he said he met with Thomas and Jeffrey and Patricia Swinehart at Thomas's house in Pots Town.
01:51:00Okay.He said that Thomas offered him $1,500 up front and another $1,500 after the killing was completed.Why do they think $3,000 is enough?That's not enough at all.So he said that they all agreed to make it look like a robbery.That's what they did.So that's, now they, this is the first person who's put Patricia into the mix.Yeah.
01:51:25No one else has put her in.He said, I met with her where we all discussed the murder and the payments and everything else.Okay.November 13th, 1991, Thomas still has not been tried, by the way.Really?No, it's crazy.Thomas is now freed on bail by a federal judge.What is going on?
01:51:45A federal judge approved the recommendation that he be freed on.on bail after spending six years in prison awaiting trial.They said, that's a little too long.Try him, get a shit or get off the pot, basically.You can't just hold a guy indefinitely until you decide to try him.That's insane.They said bail is routinely denied in capital murder cases, but they ruled that the delaysin the case were so extreme that he should be released while awaiting trial.
01:52:10December of 1992, the same judge, this is the next month, basically.Oh, I'm sorry, this is a year later.December 92.that was November 91.This same judge recommends the charges be dropped against Thomas.Okay.Unless he's brought to trial within 120 days.Okay.
01:52:30You got four months.Get it done.Or whatever.This recommendation is turned down by U.S. district judge Herbert Hutton.So they said, no, that's okay.So, yeah.But the judge said that it's unjustifiable delays that are causing this and said thatbasically they ruled that the delay is violated as constitutional right to a speedy trial under the Sixth Amendment.
01:52:54Wow.Now, speedy trial has meanings in each state in terms of amounts of time and things like that, but this is beyond the scope of anything that could possibly be considered speedy.It's been so long or anything else.So he took the step of having him released on electronic monitoring there.Now the Pennsylvania Supreme Court denies Thomas's appeal without explanation, and they're going to put him back in jail for a while.And then he's going to get out again.It's crazy.April 19, 1993, Montgomery County judge throws the Thomas de Blase case out saying that his constitutional rights have been violated.
01:53:39All right.So the case is thrown out now.So now he's released from jail.he gets married, Thomas, to a woman named Faith.Sure.Isn't that nice?July 26, 1993, Arthur Hall, finally, they've kept him without pleading,entering a plea for him or anything, so he could testify against all these people,
01:54:00but it's got on so fucking long, they just have him plead now and get it over with the deal they made with him.He pleads guilty to conspiracy to commit robbery, which is, oh, wow.Wow. That is not. Okay.He talked about robbery and there's a man that's dead.Holy shit. That's like given Timothy McVeigh a ticket from the building inspector.Like, what are we talking about?Illegal possession of fireworks.Yeah, what is happening here?
01:54:29So that is crazy.Anyway, he is, they do his deal here and his lawyer says, I think it should be emphasis.that but for Mr. Hall, this case may never have been prosecuted.Right.For anybody, at least at the time it was.They said, you know, what the fuck?Cut him a deal here.Cut him a break.
01:54:53So his sentencing for this is you, sir, may fuck off 29 to 59 months in prison.Oh, my God.Like two years he got.Holy shit.Nothing, basically.Did he at least get his three grand?I don't.think he got any yeah he probably got it at the time well yeah we know terry did because he said he's
01:55:15had a lot of dope money for weeks god now will patricia be arrested she should be well they're sayingthat they're still pushing the investigation the prosecutors are saying in the newspaper thatthey're still pushing the investigation of patricia uh swinehart saying that she calling her anunindicted co-conspirator at this point all right so they've gone into labeling her into like libelousYou know, entitled.They must have something.That's a real limbo of words there, isn't it?Yeah, that's saying they did it, but we haven't charged them yet.
01:55:51Yeah.Okay, well, why not?Motherfucker, charge them or shut up.So the prosecutors contend that David was killed to continue this affair.The prosecutor said, this is district attorney Bruce Castor.He said, it's fair to say that a criminal investigation is still pending into other persons,including Patricia Swinhart.who is, yeah, he said, we have uncovered promising leads.
01:56:14That's all I can say.All right.Okay.July 28th, 1993, Patricia is finally arrested.Okay.Yeah, she's the biggest beneficiary of this.It's pretty well slam dunk, right?I would say, right?
01:56:29They arrest her at her home, her different home now in Myers Town, Pennsylvania,charged with murder, robbery, and conspiracy charges.She's being held without bail at first.then she's going to end up getting half a million dollars bail, but she can't pay it because she's broke.Right.So she sits in jail.I'm going to read from a newspaper here.This is an article about her arrest.
01:56:52Quote, the woman, a 5'3-135-pound blonde with dark eyes to whom, quote, time has not been kind, a law enforcement of source said.Jesus.Jesus Christ was living with a wealthy man in a very fancy house when she was arrested.And we'll get into who that is and everything later because this is, it even gets crazier if it's even possible.This fucking case gets crazier.The prosecutor, Castor, said that Swinehart was arrested in her bed.They came in at like six in the morning.A female police state trooper actually went into the bedroom and took her into custody.
01:57:29I would think it would be fair to say she was shocked and surprised.There was great wailing in tears when she was taken into custody.Great wailing in tears.Another article says, quote,Looking tanned but drawn,Swinehart clutched a tissue in her handor in her handcuffed handsas police led her from the Norristown courthouse.
01:57:49She said nothing.A preliminary hearing is expected in September.Now, one of her lawyers said,I'm distressed that she's in prison.She's charged with murder.How dare they?He said she's a devoted, attentive motherwho spends her time
01:58:06tending to her grandchildren gardening and breeding bull mastiffs.What are we talking about here?She's a dog breeder now.Yeah, come on.I love bull mastiffs.They're great dogs.She's breeding them.Yeah, I used to have one.
01:58:19Love them.So, anyway, breeding bull mastiffs.He said that she's done, had nothing to do with the murder.He said she fully cooperated with law enforcement investigators more than a decade ago andeven willingly underwent an insurance company polygraph test in 82.Not a police polygraph.Right.the insurance company and quote,
01:58:39passed it with flying colors.Oh.Which she must have passed because they gave her the money.No, she could,they could have medicated her.She could take a pill beforehand.You can change that.So they said the only things that have changed,
01:58:51they said until recently,the insurance angle has never been fully investigated.The district attorney said that,you know,more importantly,a man acquitted of the murder is willing to testifythat Patricia recruited him and paid him for the murder.That's crazy.
01:59:05Crazy.Think about that.A court of law, a jury said you didn't do anything and now you're going to go up there and say you did do anything and here's what happened.They missed it.That's not great.Right.I don't have any evidence of this, but yeah.So David Swinhart's mother, Viola, was weeping and said, I'm just so upset that I don't know what to say.
01:59:26She thought she had this daughter-in-law that could commiserate for years.Naturally, this brings everything back to the four.I just don't understand what's going on right now.They also said the prosecutor said all four of the Swinehart children who are all adults now by this time,one of whom is a lawyer working from a Montgomery County judge now,all opposed bringing charges against their mother.They all said even if she did have something to do with it.We don't want to know.
01:59:53Yeah.Can you not destroy our family anymore?Right.So bail is set at 500 grand, like we said, she's broke.She can't make it.She's sitting behind bars.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Now, Thomas, by the way, his lawyer, he said that Thomas has no contact with Patricia Swinehart and is currently working in Pots Town doing construction.
02:00:16Leave my client out of this.He said, during his imprisonment, he became very religious and is, quote, very active in the church.His lawyer said, I've never seen anyone who can quote the Bible in a manner in which he can.He's very devout.He's a person who totally changed his life.So leave him alone, is what they're saying.January 11th, 1994, the ruling that drops the charges against Thomas is overturned by the state's superior court and the charges are reinstated against Thomas.Dude, this is crazy.
02:00:51January 19th, 1994, they offer Thomas another deal.Okay.They say, we're going to put Patty on.trial you testify against her and we give you eight to 20 years and you've already served likeseven years yeah yeah so pretty much time served yeah time served testify against your girlfriendplease okay he said no i'm not going to do it won't testify and i don't want the deal go fuckyourselves okay okay so he's then jailed for contempt of court after after they suppositionto testify and he still refuses
02:01:31to testify.Jail done contempt of court. He servesfive months, is releasedfrom jail, five months on thecontempt charge, is released and thenarrested again on murder charges againfor this. He'shad the craziest path of anybody we've
02:01:47ever had on this show. It's unbelievable.So, Patricia's trialfinally going to take placein 1994 orsome shit, 1995. Soshe is charged withFirst-degree murder, criminal conspiracy, solicitation to commit murder.Now, the case that they have against her, they don't have the wiretaps.
02:02:08Right.Those are inadmissible.They don't have Thomas testifying against her.And the problem here is the judge will not allow, there is a $523,000 insurance policy, the divorce, the affair with Thomas, all that's in play.Yeah.She's admitted to that.The problem is the judge will not allow.into court the fact that he was about to cut her out of his life insurance.
02:02:35Oh.And those papers were filled out and done on the desk because the judge said they don'thave any proof that Patricia knew about that.Okay.And unless they knew she knew about that, they can't use that as a motive, essentially.Okay.Even if they, even if she didn't know, she, it's still.Somebody knew.
02:02:53Yeah.I mean, even does it matter whether or not there was a fucking end date on her?getting, being the beneficiary? Does that even matter? Because she was still the beneficiaryeither way. I guess because the prosecution can say they had to kill him right then before they gotthose papers signed. And then the defense says, well, you don't have any proof she knew about thosepapers at all. And so that's why the judge just says it's all too murky, throw it all out,which is a huge blow to the prosecution. Sure is. Yeah. It's not great. But they do have theinsurance policy, the divorce and the affair, which still is not good for Patricia. Also, that
02:03:28Patricia knew his schedule.She controlled when he'd leave the house.She could like have him do something or have the kids, you know, hey, can you do this with the kids for a second?They found blood outside her house.She explained it away as he cut himself on the garage.They also said her behavior, her lack of emotion after the death, her relationship with Thomas, all that shit.Now, she still has the same attorney that she hired in 1982, by the way.DeSimone.
02:03:56De Simone said, where's the evidence?Where is the proof?Patricia Swinehart asked anyone to kill her husband.Phone records, destroyed.Witnesses, none.Confession never happened.Okay.He said the prosecution wants you to convict a widow, a mother of four.
02:04:15She's a mother.She's a grandmother that is fucking brought.Based on gossip and speculation.They say she was having an affair.Where's the proof?Well, they've all admitted the affair, so that's...They say she made a phone call.where's the recording?
02:04:29Meaning the phone call to Thomas to tell him to come to the bar,come to the house because he's about to leave.They say that she had nothing to do with the murder.Frank D. Simone said the case against her,case against her is based on testimony from a former defendant in the case,a career criminal who admits he lied under oath more than once.He said, you're going to see a hall of shame criminal testifying before you.That's what he tells the jury.
02:04:56He says,Patricia Swinehart is guilty of one thing.Bad judgment in marriage.Okay.David Swinehart was a serial cheater who abandoned his family for a younger woman.Patricia survived that betrayal.Now the state wants to punish her for his death.That's also a real big motive to kill somebody.
02:05:18Certainly.Yeah.If you're fucking some young chick.The young girl didn't kill him.Yeah.No, she didn't do it.Right. Wow. Now, the insurance papers being not, and also they're not allowed to put in the thing that he had heavy debt and high interest rates and all that. They wouldn't allow them to introduce that either. They forbade prosecutors from revealing the insurance switch to the jurors saying there's no evidence that she knew of it. And the prosecutor castor said the decision to exclude the imminent change in the insurance was devastating to our case.absolutely devastating.
02:05:59Yeah. So yeah, his appointment was for January 16th was the day after he disappeared to go take care of it.And he said, naturally, we think that put a very, very big hole in what we thought was a reasonably cogent case.So, yeah, no insurance testimony, just that she collected insurance money.That's all they get out of that.They're trying to establish that Swinehart also tried to remove evidence of the murder by treating bloodstained snow on the driveway.with rock salt and trying to chip away at it with a shovel.Oh.In her 1982 statements to police, Patricia acknowledged salting the driveway and shoveling, quote, isolated portions of it.
02:06:40Okay.I have to shovel the driveway all the time.I never shovel isolated portions of it.You shovel the driveway.Shunks at a time?And you go inside.How about over here on the grass?I'm going to shovel a little bit out of there.
02:06:52No, over here.A little bit over there.but the area she admitted shoveling were not where the slaying occurred.Well, yeah, she didn't say that.Now, a neighbor testifies, a former neighbor testifies she saw Patricia shoveling snow in the exact location of the murder.Oh.This is Barbara S. Lenzy, L-E-N-Z-I.Remember that last name?
02:07:17It's very important.Okay.Former neighbor.She testified she became close friends with Patricia during the.the early 1980s.Her children played sports with the Swinehart children, and Lenzie said that she regarded Swinehartas a very close friend in Confidant.Okay.
02:07:35In 1986, Lindsay said her own marriage was falling apart, and she revealed to Patricia,you know, just a heart to heart with a friend, that she was having an affair withanother man because her marriage was falling apart.Swineheart, Lindsay says that Patricia replied.that she had been having an affair with David Swinehart's nephew Thomas while he was still alive.Lindsay said she mentioned that they would sometimes get together at her house to have a sexual affair.Oh.Now, defense attorneys attack this neighbor's, the veracity of her statement.
02:08:13She won't go, why, she's a neighbor.What does she care?What does she have to gain?Well, her ex-husband, the one she was cheating on, Barbara Lindsay's ex-husband, Mr. Lindsay,and Patricia are now together.Oh, get out of here.Yes.They said the Lensie's, they said the Lensie's ex-husband won primary custody of their children and moved in with Patricia.
02:08:36So Lensie said, quote, well, I certainly wouldn't call Patricia my best friend now.They were like, you're not even friends with her.You're mad at her for this, aren't you?Neanderthal man's back.Here we go.Here he is.He testifies that Thomas told him several months after.after the slaying that he had a thing with Swinehart's wife, Patricia, who was trying to get a divorce.
02:08:58But on cross-examination, D. Simone kind of lights him up a little bit.He said, Mr. Hall, you're a convicted felon, correct?Is that never a good way to start a conversation?How do you do?How do you do?And he said, yes.And they said, facing 20 years for armed robbery.And he said, yes.
02:09:14And they said, and you made a deal for leniency.He said, I was offered consideration.And they said, you'd say anything to reduce your sentence, wouldn't you?you. And he said, no, I. And the attorney jumped in and said, you never saw Patricia Swinheart thatnight, did you? Oh. Arthur Hall said, no, but. And he said, never heard her voice. And he said, no.And the lawyer said, never saw her at any planning meetings. And he said, no, but Thomas said,and the lawyer said, here say, your honor, I'm done with this guy. Fuck him. Yeah. Okay. So that's not great.and is direct
02:09:51he corroborated everythingbut that looked bad and crossthey get Terry Mout in there as wellor Mott or whatever he issure he no other witnesshas ever directly implicatedPattyor Patricia
02:10:04nobody said a word about herno except for this guyand that was after his perjury expiredhe now but there be no reasonfor him to come forward otherwisehe was already fucked it was weirdso yeah he said that noshe was at a meeting with us
02:10:18doing it and planning it all out. Mott's current lawyer said that prosecutors made it very clearfrom day one that they were not promising Mr. Mott anything for his testimony as well, becausethey went off over that for a while. They called him a career criminal and drug addict who in1985 professed innocence and was acquitted by the jury, and he's serving a 20-year sentenceon unrelated charges. He testified that he got $3,000 for his role and that promised hima maintenance contract in her husband's extensive real estate holding.So not only would he get $3,000, he'd get like a no-show job from Patty, too.Sure.
02:10:58Now, in court, Patty's new boyfriend's son who apparently plays football for Ohio State.Really?At this point, a Penn State.I'm sorry, Penn State.So he might just be angry because he fucking hung around Sandusky for too long.but wow.This guy had an outburst in the courtroom.This is Carmine Lindsay, who's 18 years old,
02:11:25lunged toward prosecutor-caster.Oh, boy.As the prosecutor grilled a defense witness.Relatives and courtroom deputies grabbed this guyand shoved him from the courtroom as the jury watched all this.This is fucking crazy.This was a lawyer's questioning of Swinhart's daughter.He got about two steps from his seat before friends and family members and courthouse deputies subdued him and dragged him out.
02:11:54They rushed him from the courtroom.Patricia Swinhart's mother yelled, see what you do to the prosecutor.See what you've done to me in our family?Right.So the incident left the jurors a little bit concerned.Defense attorney said, I think the jurors felt apprehensive about the incident.They wanted some explanation.What the fuck was that about?
02:12:14They said they asked the judge to speak individually to the jurors, and they did that, and they came away reassured about the jury's fairness.They said, frankly, we're surprised.Some jurors might use this as an excuse to get off the jury, and nobody did.This is such an interesting story.Who the fuck wants to walk away from this?Why would you leave?I wouldn't leave.I'd be fascinated.
02:12:35This was the second outburst of the week.On Wednesday, one of Patricia's sons grabbed the prosecutor's arm in front of the jury and whispered.angrily at him.Oh.Mad that he was prosecuting his mom.You can't do that.You just can't do any of that.Then there's other jury issues here.
02:12:54They said they've been sequestered in a hotel since the trial began because it's somuch public, you know, spotlight on this.One of the jurors' homes was damaged by recent flooding.And the other jurors complained that their hotel rooms had been burglarized while theywere at court.this is a mess.A manager at the hotel said the complaints had been handled internally and said we weren't sure whether some money was actually taken or it was misplaced, the manager said.He said only one room was affected.
02:13:27So the incident in the courtroom, quote, was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of anxiety for the jurors.So in closings, the prosecutor says lust and greed, ladies and gentlemen, two motives.for murder. This is two and a half hour closing.Oh, boy. She goes into the divorce thinking she'll take him to the cleaners, make a ton of money,and be done with that SOB. Then she decides the only way she's going to get any money is throughthe life insurance and the plan to commit the murder is made. And we told you all how it happened.Now, the defense in a five hour closing. Oh my God. Five hours of listening to this guy talk.This is fucking wild.
02:14:12Okay, this is a couple different attorneys, but one says,we know that she wasn't involved with Terry Mout.He is one of the most baseless, immoral persons I've ever seen in court.Is that right?Then DeSimone said, you have to acquit her.He said, this is a disgrace.This prosecution, a disgrace.Right.
02:14:32Pounding on the jury box, too, while he's doing it.He ridiculed the prosecutor's office.He said, he asked, why would Patricia plot a murder outside her own home on a nightwhen her house was full of people.It was just her kids.It wasn't full of,she didn't have a party going on.Why kill her husband when his estate
02:14:49could have grown considerably had he lived?He was in debt.And why did Mout describeher hair as blondewhen pictures from 1982show it seems to have been a dark brown?This is nonsense.This is Disneyland.
02:15:05Where the fuck did Disneyland come from?They don't have anything to corroboratehim. Nothing, nothing, nothing.He says, this is all while pounding on the jury box.He then tried to discredit Terry Moore, Terry Mout.He said, no matter what dog and pony show they put on, this case rises and falls on the testimony of Terry Lee Mout.He says that he's serving time in prison.He's a liar.
02:15:30He said, they presented you with this animal to convict this woman.He's an animal.Yeah.For what?Maybe a headline, maybe a career.If she's convicted, Mouts getting out of prison.Count on it.he then called Mount a predator, a beast, a savage.
02:15:47A beast.A beast predator savage who lies so effectively that the jury acquitted him of murder.That's how good of a liar he is.He got off on murder charges.He said, this is my favorite.I've never heard a defense attorney or anybody say this in a court of law.Quote, he's raping you from that witness stand.Oh, my God.
02:16:08It gets better.From all the way over there.He said he's raping you.from that witness stand.He raped one jury already.Don't let him rape you, which is good advice for anybody.Don't let him rape you as good advice.I've never heard a defense attorney say that he's going to rape you, which is insane.
02:16:27So February 2nd, 1994, the verdict comes in on Patty.Not looking good for Patty.She is found not guilty of everything.Acquitted?Acquitted of everything.How?What are they doing?I don't know, man.
02:16:46This is wild.What did they want?The only person who's really gotten in any trouble out of this is Jeffrey, who got no pussy and less money than anybody else.No Aunt Patty slash.Nope.Oh, man.God dang it.From the paper, it says, as the verdicts were read, Swinhart pitched forward in her chair, then slumped, sobbing against the shoulder of one of her lawyers.
02:17:10She waited for the jury to.leave, then lunged toward weeping family members as they swarmed around her.Thank God, thank God, Patricia said over and over again.She and her family then hurried from the courtroom without comment.So in the eyes of the law, she did nothing.Jeffrey did everything.Mout did something on a different case.They thought.
02:17:33And Hall, would Hall get fucking two years?Yeah, that he already served.What in the hell is happening?This is a fucking mess.of epic proportion.And Thomas still hasn't even tried yet.He hasn't even been tried yet.We'll get into that.
02:17:48Oh, boy.So this is a mess, man.Her lawyer, Frank D. Simone, said,they didn't have anything.They had Terry Mount, who was nothing,whom the jury chose to disbelieve.That's it.Clear and simple.
02:18:02Go fuck your mothers.I'm out of here.Bye.D. Simone out.I'm going.So they said,the other defense attorneywho's represented her also said,
02:18:11I knew in my heart that she didn't do it.Nothing changed from 1982 until now except for Mout.Now, a juror that they confirmed it, a juror that they talked to said Mout was the stumbling block.They said we didn't feel that she was without guilt.We all felt that she was covering up evidence.But there was certainly reasonable doubt because if we were to convict her, we had to believe Terry Mout.Oh, so we've got to give him credibility and we give him none.Yeah. So even though we think she did it, we're going to acquit her, which is wild.
02:18:45Now, will she testify against Thomas?I hope so.She doesn't have to do shit.Yes, she doesn't have to.Caster said he planned to call her to testify in that trial.Her defense attorney said he would advise her to say, fuck you.Yeah.He said, we're going to recommend that she not testify at all.
02:19:04The bottom line is we want this horror to end for her.We also want to leave.her of any civil liability she might have,considering that she's already been whatever.So May 1994 is when Thomas is released on contemptand then arrested for murder again as soon as he's released.Next year, August 1995,the Pennsylvania Supreme Court refuses to throw out
02:19:29the murder charges against Thomas saying thatit caused an extraordinary delay in his trial,but still you have to do it.November 1995, a U.S. magistrate,recommends all charges be dropped against Thomasdue to unexplainable and unjustifiable delays.A judge rejects the recommendation againto drop the charges and they're going to fucking take him
02:19:52to trial. Right before the trial,a deal is offered to him.Oh.Because if they can't convict Patty,what the fuck makes him think that this evidenceis going to be better against Thomas?Right, right.You know?
02:20:04So they are going to offer him20 to 40 years if he just admits everything.He can get 20 to 40.Yeah, and be done.And he said, I don't think so.I'm going to go to, let's go to trial.Yeah, you guys are like one for three in trial so far.You're pretty bad at this.
02:20:23In terms of convictions, you're not doing too well.It's like 15 years later almost.So, okay, go fuck yourself.The prosecutor said, Thomas de Blassey made the wrong decision every time he's had an opportunityto make a decision, meaning all of the times he turned down these deals.The prosecutor now, same guy, Bruce Castor, he had got the body wire recordings in.Not the ones from the house, but the ones that Jeffrey was wearing.Those are in.
02:20:51Jeffrey's going to testify against him.Oh, shit.All he asked for is a transfer to a minimum security facility.Send me somewhere better to do this time.Send me somewhere cushier and I'll put my brother in prison.No problem.All right.They also have Arthur Hall's testimony.
02:21:08and at the last minute, Patricia agrees to testify.Really?Yes.This is fucking, how crazy is this fucking case, dude?Why?What, what, what's she?Oh, she's out of her mind, right?By the way, is there a good person in this entire group of people?
02:21:27I haven't found one apart from, I mean, he, he, he'll talk about him.Nobody liked it's crazy.So, it's crazy.Anyway, openings in the case, the prosecution, here's the defense.Opening statements for the defense.He tells the jurors, this is not a trial about Patricia Swinehart.This is not a trial about insurance.This is the trial of Thomas de Blaze, which sounds like he's really setting up a movie.
02:21:51We admit there was an affair.He had an intimate physical relationship with his aunt.Okay.Quote, it is ugly in many people's books, but it's certainly not a crime.I knew it was a rule.I didn't know it was a law.In some states, it's illegal.Holy shit.
02:22:10Now the tapes are allowed in.Like I said, all the tapes that Jeff had.This has gone back and forth 20 times these tapes and they're finally allowed in, 11 years coming.Every lawyer that's defended, Thomas, has had these tapes thrown out for the last decade.And yesterday, at the second day of the trial, they play what they call the brothers crackling, curse-filled, fragmented,and at times oblique conversations.All right, here we go.They said, the only thing you have to worry about
02:22:43is what I gave you,which is the one we did before.Yeah.We talked about that one here.He said that the only thing you have to worry aboutis what I gave you.That's, if you're sure, that's taken care of,you burnt that right.
02:22:57And him saying, you know,that's with the clothes in it, yeah,with the blood, the pants in it,and the rope, everything's gone.That shit back and forth.The only thing's not gone,but the money. I still have that buried. What should I do with it? Oh, spend it? There's that.And then also the you got your cut. You want to end up like Uncle David. She looks good for a widow.
02:23:17They'd have moved by now if they had something. All the main things.Now, the defense attorney calls the tapes, quote, totally inconclusive.Really?Could have been talking about anything. He said 10 tapes, multiple hours. You'd expect more.Would you?Well, he said, you know, I don't know. He said the tapes incriminate Jeffrey.but they don't incriminate Thomas.He said Thomas suspected his brother was trying to set him up too.
02:23:43So he was just kind of like trying to shut him up.Arthur Hall, Neanderthal man, comes to court again.He's in court a lot.Poor bastard.He said, I told Tommy that a nephew of Mr. Swinhart, David Schiffley,had been questioned before the grand jury about the slaying.He said the district attorney told him they had a tape of Mrs. Swinehart and Tommy talking.She made a comment that she'd like to get rid.
02:24:07of him and that Tommy said after tonight you won't have to worry about it.Tommy just told me, yeah, we had a thing, but he didn't want to discuss it no more, meaningwith Patricia.He told the jurors that he entered the High Point Tavern shortly after eight.Thomas received a call over the telephone, quote, Tommy had a brief conversation,put the phone down and said, all right, let's go.He's there.So on the way to the home, he said that the DeBlaise brothers talked about killing David.
02:24:37He said that would eliminate all our problem, mine and hers.I just want the son of a bitch dead.Thomas was quoted as saying.Yeah.And then they went and killed him.So, you know, he also testified that he believed he was, quote, going to rob a man, but that instead they beat him to death on the way.They beat him to death when he came out.Jeffrey came up behind him, whacked him over the head with a baseball bat.
02:24:58It was a very hard, an overhand swat.And he was demonstrating the blows with a wooden pointer.Oh, my.They gave him a pointer.He said Jeffrey handed the bat to his younger brother and then and that Tommy hit Swinehart a couple of times saying this is the end of all our problems.This is it.Yeah.We're going to fix it.
02:25:17Yeah.Now, cross-examination on DeAndrethal man here.They questioned his credibility and grilled him about repeatedly lying to police and a grand jury before finally agreeing to cooperate in 1985.He admitted he'd lied when he denied any knowledge of the murder saying that he did so out of fear.And they said, you'll do whatever it takes.to satisfy the Commonwealth.What do you have,what you've said has been dictated
02:25:41by protecting yourself,hasn't it?Patricia testifies, here we go.Now we're finally get a story out of her.We've gotten nodefinitive story out of her.They said she looked like a suburbangrandmother, very conservative
02:25:57dress, pearl necklace.Nothing of, you know,I'm a guy, woman who fucks her nephew.None of that stuff.Yeah.So she took the stand and,She was called to account for her actions on everything.And they said this was the first time in a decade where she actually asked to explain herself.
02:26:16And with her personal attorney close by, she admitted to having the affair, but repeatedly said she could not remember the details surrounding the incident, meaning the murder.I can't remember anything.She said, I don't know what to say to you.It was a long time ago.I just don't remember.Wow.The district attorney, who reiterated question after question only to receive the same answer, called the testimony evasive.He said he would call her back later if he needed to.
02:26:49At one point, this is the back and forth.Mrs. Swinhart, did you have a sexual relationship with the defendant?Yes, he was your nephew.By marriage, my husband's nephew.I didn't fuck my sister's kid.Yeah.When did this relationship begin, summer of 81?While you were married, Patricia said,
02:27:06my husband had left me for another woman.She tried to maintain her composure,but having to describe the affair in courtwas a little weird for her.They said, did you ever discuss your husband's insurance policieswith Thomas?She said, everyone knew David had insurance.How?
02:27:23I know nobody's insurance statusunless it's someone I'm married to.I have no fucking idea what anybody's life is sure.I got no friends.Yeah, I don't know anything about their shit.We know each other's because we're in business together.have to because that's it though nobody else on earth i know about um they said did you ever askthomas to kill your husband absolutely not she says did you call thomas the night of january 15th
02:27:45nineteen eighty two i don't recall well i guess it's been years i don't know if i call them or not thatnight he said you don't recall calling your lover the night your husband was murdered and she said it was14 years ago i mean oh my god i guess you would know that right yeah yeah yeahOh, my God. She said she didn't learn about her husband's financial troubles until after he was dead, which isn't true because when they talked about support, they had given her paperwork saying that he was in debt and not, it didn't have any money.She repeatedly said she couldn't recall how or when the affair began or how often they met.She said, that was 15 years ago. I don't know. I remember plenty about 15 years ago. Yeah, plenty.15 years ago, I know if I fucked somebody a lot.Especially if it was around my spouse being murdered. I probably remember a little bit about that.
02:28:33They said, did you want the neighborhood, the Pots Town community, to know about the affair with your nephew?And she said, I didn't think about that.Oh.I didn't even think about it.So, wow.So using a timeline drawn by this defense attorney, she reconstructed a tightly packed evening that began about 725 when she asked her son to move her husband's car so she could drive two visiting students to the local high school.So that's his car was in the garage.And they moved it out of the garage.
02:29:06Wow.So it would be easier to deal with.The car was moved, and by 745, she said she'd return home after dropping them off, picked up her two youngest children, and taken them to the store for pencils and candy.That's the most innocent thing in the world.I took them for pencils and candy.Wow.There's a, something was just, oh, my God.The worst strip club ever, pencils and candy.
02:29:29There's something recently that somebody gave somebody money and said, go get pencils and candy.Like, it's just a distraction method for children.Yeah.Yeah, here.This is what you.Yeah, what was that?I don't know.I just saw it.
02:29:41It was a show we just watched.It was a show we just watched.Yeah.Because we both, yeah, it's something we both watched.I just watched it.Was it the Ed Gein thing?Is it in there?Those kids, was there pencils and candy with those kids?
02:29:53I don't know.Somebody got pencils and candy with cash.With cash.So by eight, about the time the prosecutors say she phoned with Thomas at the local bar,she said she was home.So she was home to do that.By nine, the time that he was already dead,she said she was watching Dallas on TV.
02:30:10Okay.Which was a giant hit at that point.It was the biggest fucking show in the world.And playing back Ammon with her son, David.Okay.Okay.Back Ammon and Dallas.Now the prosecutor called her testimony a lie.
02:30:25He said she's trying to put herself back at the house by 8 p.m.In a tense exchange, he pointed out to the jury that her first police statementafter the murder, she said she went to the store about 8 p.m.Prosecutors contend that she left the house then to tell Thomas, his brother, Jeffrey,and the two accomplices that he was home and they could come over and murder him.Sure.Okay.So basically the same shit as they had on Patricia, but not really anything else.
02:30:53Yeah.They got Jeffrey's testimony, but Jeffrey also was testifying in the other ones and it didn't seem to help any.He testified against Terry Mout.Who cares?Right.Okay, they find Thomas guilty of first-degree murder.What is going on?The only people involved are the two brothers.
02:31:12How do they got enough to get them, but not the other three?That's so stupid.It makes no sense.Now, sentencing comes around.This is death penalty or life without parole.He could have got five years at one point.If he just took it.It would have been well over by now.
02:31:28I mean, when you see somebody got nothing, you got to run.And a bunch of other people.And the courts are disallowing things.His lawyers are probably telling him they don't have shit.Fuck that.Don't take it a fucking deal.So Thomas's family, they beg for his life here.His sister and his mother, his sister whose sons are the ones that.
02:31:48Right.That fucked her.Yeah.And his mother are there.They beg the jury not to condemn him to die.His mother said, I have lost many men in my life.Please don't take him from me.Please don't take him.
02:32:05Okay.The sister, Beth, wept openly as she pleaded with the jurors to spare her brother's life.His wife, Faith, comes out now.Faith, they married while in 1993.She told the jurors that she wanted to be a housewife.I wanted to raise children when she met him, which led the defense attorney to say,Faith, you know that the verdict virtually ensures that they'll never be children born by you and Tom.And both of them erupted in tears, Thomas and her.
02:32:35She said, all I can ask for is your mercy.At least we'll be able to have Saturdays.Then she left the witness stand hunched over, clutching her stomach.Friends and neighbors, there's no baby in here.Right.Friends and neighbors, 14 character witnesses came to the courthouse here,saying that Thomas was a law-abiding, non-violent person in 1982.Three of his friends and former.
02:33:01neighbors testified, the rest agreed to support the depictions and back them, basically.So they didn't have a parade.They're like, can you just stipulate to what he said?So everyone's, yeah, what that guy said.Me too.All right, great.So the defense here, they're trying to save him.And they say that, quote, that they're in a position, he's in the position of asking you to spare a life.
02:33:26He called the killing an aberrant atypical act and said that in the years since the slain,Thomas has become a devout Christian and a responsible, repentant man.Oh.He said he was 23.We all do things in our youth that we regret doing now.True.Not murder for hire after you fucked your aunt.That's over the top.
02:33:46I don't know.I mean, maybe.Yeah.We've all done.Oh, Christ.Who hasn't, really?Then he asked the jury that, do you believe that David would ask you to take the life of his nephew?Do you think so?
02:34:02What do you think David would want here?The prosecution closing here said that the killing was committed by means of torture.He said he was killed 1,100% more than was needed to kill him.I don't know if that's a scientific number.It's a good number.Pulled that one out of their ass.He told the jurors referring to the numerous crushing bat blows and steep stab wounds.He said, Thomas for 14 years was presumed innocent.
02:34:28However, yesterday, by your verdict, you should.stripped the murderer of his innocence.The shield has been taken away from him, and he says, he asked the jury to, quote, wield the sword of justice and sentence him to death.Good God.Weield the sword of justice.Like Christ.Off with his head.Off with his head.
02:34:49They come back and they say, you, sir, may fuck off.Life without parole.Okay.Life without parole for him.Very dumb, but all right.It's, yeah, I think part of it is too, a jury sits back and they go, no one else got the death penalty for this.Multiple people were involved in this.Yeah.
02:35:09He's going to be the only guy to die.Let's not do that.That sounds weird.And now the house, after she's acquitted, Patricia kind of vanishes.She sold the house in 1995.Okay.The family house.The new owners reported finding blood stains in the garage that, quote, no amount of cleaning could remove.
02:35:30Oh, wow, they're still there?They demolished the garage entirely.Wow.Now, this house, in 1999, it sold for $1864.What the fuck?So that has to be like a transfer to somebody, like somebody gave it to somebody else.Yeah, that's just like the taxes.Exactly, exactly what that is.
02:35:53So that's interesting.2007, remember Jeffrey?Yeah.He's in a lot more trouble.Really?Oh, yeah.He is found guilty of third-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder after a joint trial with a co-defendant named Lewis Mann in 2007.This happened in 1996 as the crime.
02:36:14Jeffrey and Mann were cellmates in the State Correctional Institute at Pittsburgh, also known as the Western Penitentiary.Jeffrey and Mann murdered a fellow inmate, Timothy Boris, who died of exfixiation due to strangulation.They strangled this guy.Wow.Since he was already incarcerated on another murder, his conviction triggered a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment, which he already had.There was testimony that they observed the victim arguing with Jeffrey and man.According to this other person, he later spoke with the victim.After this guy was asked what the victim stated, there was an objection and all this goes on.
02:36:55And they go on.They said that the argument was about drugs.that Jeff gave him some drugs,and Tim got scared and gave it to another guy.They had an argument because the guy died from the drugs.Okay.This guy also testified that he witnessed Jeffrey using a chokehold on the victiminside his own Jeffrey's cell while the other guy, Mann, was punching the victim.
02:37:19Afterwards, Jeffrey and Mann approached this other guy inside his celland asked him for help carrying the victim back to his cell.This guy declined to help and suggested that they asked two other inmates, Carlos Vasquez and Adam Cologne for assistance.He then saw the four of these guys carrying the body of the victim.He said the men dropped the victim at one point and the victim didn't even grunt.Yeah, because he's dead.Because he's dead, yeah.They acknowledged an argument in the cell and all this type of thing.
02:37:50Richard Guy, Dick Guy, the victim's cellmate also testified that Jeffrey and Mann had aapproached him and told him that the victim had overdosed on heroin and they had attempted to revive him.We're just getting rid of him. Yeah.When Guy reentered his cell, he saw the victim who he thought was asleep.Guy then used heroin himself and fell asleep.When he awoke the next morning, the victim was unresponsive, bloated and purple.He called for a guard and was removed to solitary confinement.This guy was, not the dead guy.
02:38:19Later, man, Jeffrey's co-defendant, informed this cellmate that he had had an argument with thevictim and a struggle ensued before, quote, things got out of hand.Okay.The autopsy revealed the victim had abrasions and bruising on his face and back as well ashis neck.His eyes had hemorrhaged and the forensic pathologist concluded he'd been strangledto death.Jesus.
02:38:43Now, the swine heart children.Yeah.What becomes of all of them?Where do they go?Yeah.With mom, she's acquitted.Yeah.Well, they were all adults by then.
02:38:53Yeah.So by the time she was acquitted, they were all adults.So the oldest son, who was 17 at the time of the murder, left Pennsylvania immediately after high school, changed his name.Now, I heard he was a lawyer, so I don't know if he left after all of that or what, or came back.They said one of the daughters became a therapist specializing in childhood trauma, and she spoke publicly about growing up with all of this dead father, mother on trial and all that.Sure.The little girl who was six at the time who'd drawn the pictures on the casket.Yeah.
02:39:31She had a hard time.She had addiction in her 20s.Yeah.This is a rough thing.Multiple arrests.I mean, not good.Finally got clean in 2010 and started working as an addiction counselor in Philadelphia.Yeah.
02:39:47And then the saddest of all in 2008, the youngest son committed suicide.What the fuck?leaving a note that said, quote, can't escape the family curse.Geez.Oh, he had an uncle that did it.Yeah.God damn.Had an uncle that did it, a father that died.
02:40:03It's a mess.So that's horrible.2018, now remember Terry Lee Mott?He was acquitted of the murder, but served 20 years on forgery and theft charges unrelated to this.He was released in 2005 from prison on those charges.And he never admitted his involvement.in the murder and died in 2018 of liver failure.Arthur Hall was released from prison in 1988, moved away from Pennsylvania and just
02:40:34came back for trials and shit, and I don't know what happened to him.Arthur Hall's a common name and it was very difficult to dig him up.That's Captain Caveman?Yeah, who knows.2020 is when a former detective is interviewed and this is very interesting.This is a guy he's dying of cancer and doesn't give a fuck, so he's going to talk.He said, quote, we all knew Patricia did it.Hell, the whole town knew.
02:40:58But knowing and proving, that's different.She played us all.The grieving widow act, the concerned mother routine.You want to know the truth?David Swinehart was an asshole.This guy doesn't give a fuck anymore.What I know the truth?David Swinart was an asshole.
02:41:16Cheated on his wife, flaunted his money, treated people like dirt.Did he deserve to die?No.But did anyone really mourn him?Also, no.Unbelievable.Fuck him.His kids are the only ones that cared and his mom.
02:41:28The real victims were those kids.Growing up knowing your mother probably had your father killed, your cousins are in prison for it, and everyone in town knows your business.That's a life sentence worse than prison.Yeah, that sucks.That really does.Yeah, those are their first cousins, literally.Right.First cousins.
02:41:46Jeffrey gave his first interview at age 69 from prison.He said, I think about that.night every day. Wow, that's a weird way to put that. Right. It's hard to, I think, that night every day.Not the murder. That's a blur of blood and adrenaline. I think about the moment before when I couldhave said no, could have walked away, could have been anything other than what I became.Thomas still won't talk about it, Jeffrey says, still protecting Patricia, I guess, or protectinghimself from the truth that she used us all. Right. She played us. He said, you want to know the funnypart, the money, that 523,000 we killed for, Patricia burned through it in two years on lawyers.
02:42:27We destroyed four families for money that just ended up in Frank D. Simone's pocket.Unbelievable.Yep. He said, if I could tell young guys in Pottstown anything, it'd be this. There's no shortcut.No insurance pay out worth your soul. You want money, work for it. You want love? Don't look for it in your uncle's wife.Right. These are all very, you want money, work for it. You want love?Don't fuck your aunt.These are all real basic concepts.I think we can all agree on here.
02:42:55David Swinehart was a bastard, but he didn't deserve what we did.No one like this guy.No.Nobody does.And we didn't deserve what happened to us either, but we chose it.Every swing of the bat, every thrust of that knife, we chose it.I'll die in here.Thomas will die in here.
02:43:11Patricia's probably already dead.David's definitely dead.Was any of it worth it?What do you think?I'm going to say no.Nope.September 2020.Thomas wants an appeal based on the fact that he was only 23 years old when this went down.
02:43:27And the U.S. Supreme Court recently deemed mandatory life's terms for juveniles unconstitutional.And they said, well, 23 isn't a juvenile.Keep fucking off, asshole.What he's talking about.What a dumb note.Yeah, I mean, you know, he had some developmental things.We're like, get the hell out of here.He's 23 for Christ's sake.
02:43:45Thomas is incarcerated at the state correctional institution at Cole Township.life without parole. He's had multiple disciplinary infractions early on, found religion in 2001,and became the prison chaplain's assistant.Wow. Whatever.He knows how to get special privileges is what that is.Jeffrey is at the Huntingdon, Huntingdon is what it's called in Montgomery County there.Okay. Now, other things that happen, the Swinheart case changed Pennsylvania law.Commonwealth versus de Blaze became precedent for consensual recording admissibility,
02:44:22speedy trial rights during appeals, and wiretap evidence and murder cases.Bruce Castor, the prosecutor on all of this, went on to become Montgomery County District Attorney,then County Commissioner.He appeared on investigation discoveries five times for different reasons,always citing the Swinhart case as the one that still haunts him.I believe it, yeah.The case is still taught at Pennsylvania.Law Schools as an example of how you can very easily lose a case if you only have
02:44:53circumstantial evidence.Never trust a family in murder conspiracies.For sure.And basically, this is how you'd not commit a murder.This is terribly dumb.This is so bad.Now, Patricia, there's two conflicting stories.And I think I found the right answer.
02:45:11Patricia moved to Florida, then Arizona, then disappeared entirely.Some people say she remarried.Others claim she died in the early 2000s.This is an article from an article.In 2019, a woman claiming to be Patricia's daughter told a reporter,my mother died in 2007, lung cancer.She never admitted anything, but she never denied it either.Her last words were, I'm sorry for everything.
02:45:35Okay, but that's that.But I did some digging myself and took way too much time to do this.but I foundit's her manI found Patricia Abecause she's Patricia AnnPatricia Ann Lindsayher neighbor's fucking husband
02:45:54and it's allit's Boynton Beach Floridaand it's all of like her relativesare her relatives that I know that we knowof her kids and shit like thatthis says that she wasdied on Junein June of 2023 at age 82
02:46:09oh boyThat's what this says.I don't know which is true, but that seems right to me.She's stuck around way too long.She married her goddamn neighbor's husband and moved to Florida.Oh my God.That's fucking wild.This case was seen on deadly affairs.
02:46:26Yeah.The TV show, Three to Tango is the name of the episode.They said a love affair takes a murderous turn when David Swinhart discovers his wife skinny dipping in the gene pool is the way they describe it.So there you go, everybody.Hots Town, Pennsylvania.That is one of the most twisted, weird, crazy goddamn cases we've ever covered.That's fucked up, man.The whole thing is the disaster.
02:46:50Nothing good came of it.Just awfulness all around.How long did she live?I think till 2023.Wow.82 years, I think, after all that.Who knows?So there you go, everybody.
02:47:02If you like what we're dishing out here, if you like what we're cooking,please, please get on whatever app you're listening on.five stars. It helps so much. It really does help drive our show up the charts and helps out a lot.So do that. Head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Tickets for live shows, merchandise for allthe shows. Tickets for live small-tow murder shows. About the only one left with tickets is Seattleon October 18th at the Moore and that they just put out a low ticket warning. So if you want thosetickets, get them right. God damn now. I saw that I posted that last night. So get in there.Also get your tickets for the virtual live show. We cannot wait. It is right.
02:47:39The Thursday right before Halloween, just like a regular live show, except you don't have to go anywhere.Anywhere in the world with Wi-Fi or Internet.You can watch this.You want to hardwire it.That's up to you.I don't care.So get in there and do it.It's going to be just like a regular live show.
02:47:54Pictures, story, jokes.We're going to wear costumes like idiots.I'm going to make Jimmy Smoke weed out of the apparatus that scares him.It's going to be hilarious.Oh, you know, it's going to happen.So it's going to be a lot of fun.Do that.Get your tickets right now.
02:48:08It's available for two weeks after it.airs too. So you can watch it a hundred times if you want. You can wait and watch it at the end.Do whatever you want with it. We don't care. It's shut up and give me murder.com. Definitely get yourselfPatreon. Oh, yeah. Listen to our other two shows too, crime in sports and your stupid opinions, which we think you're going to love.Now, Patreon, patreon. Patreon.com slash crime in sports, just like the name of that show. Another show we have.That's where you get all the bonus material. All you have to be is $5 a month or above and you get so much shit.hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before immediately upon subscription, all sorts of stuff.Then you get new ones every other week, one crime and sports, one small town murder, and you just get them all.
02:48:50Yeah, yeah.Just take them.This week what we're going to give you for crime and sports, we're going to talk about those old MTV rock and jock specials, which is basically we're going to make fun of like tiny actors for trying to fucking get a shot over Reggie Miller.You know, and it's ridiculous.Tony, Tony, Tony.all three Tony's playing three on three with Belle Biv and DeVoe.So Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about unknown number that documentary where the woman harasses her daughter for years.And it's the craziest thing ever.
02:49:23We've had so many requests we had to do it.That's patreon.com slash crime in sports.And you get a shout out at the end of the show.By the way, you also get everything ad free on there as well.All the shows, crime and sports, your stupid opinion, small time murder, all add free on page.Patreon and you get a shout out.Jimmy Hibby with the names of the people who would just never do any of the shit that happened this week.Never fuck our ants and kill people.
02:49:46Just never do any of it.Hit me with them right now.This week's executive producer, Brian Cush Flowerchild BMX.It's a lot to say.It's a lot of stuff.I don't know what all that means.Gary Howard.Elena's ammo.
02:49:58Yeah.Gary.Hello, Gary.And Elena, she's lovely.She's Canadian.Toronto.Thank you.Matter of fact.
02:50:06Kyle Noverwik.Another guy, terrific.I think he's in England.I can't remember.I think so.Well, thank you.But Olivia is 17.Happy birthday, Olivia.
02:50:16That's Jenny Coon's kid, I think.Jenna didn't say if that's her child.She said it's Olivia's birthday, so we have to tell her.So 17-year-old animal, Delivia, we wish you a happy, happy.Happy birthday.Frannie Hitsky.Also, somebody has been around.She's going to come to a show.
02:50:33She's incredibly sick.Don't eat.tainted meat.Poor Franny is dealing.Don't do that. She'sdestroyed about it too. Tim Tisler,Taisler,Debrovco, Zaja.
02:50:49I don't know what that means. Oh, it meansOak Grove. That's what it means. And they're verydepressed now because of theSmall Town Murder Showfrom Oak Grove. That episode? Yeah.Jonathan Batchelor andIan Elliott. Those areexecutive. Thank you all so much for everything you do.
02:51:06Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Ryan Bender.Oh, boy.Happy Hour, checking in in Greeley, Colorado.Happy Hour is on the tour of the worst towns in America.That's better than we were at one place.Oh, he goes to the worst place.El Paso.El Paso.
02:51:23Yeah, that's worse than Greeley.Poor bastard.Janice Hill.Yeah, and Albuquerque, all kinds of New Mexico shit.Devin James, Lauren Bender, another bender.Jesus. K. Perry, Andrea Reneery, Darcy D. Becca Keel, Kell, Keel. Daphne Young, Jake with no last name, L.M.O. with no last name. Colin Ondrottie. Todd Nicol. Kinnickle. Nick. Nick, Loperfito. Don Carpenter. Brandon Weatherill, Weatherill. Robert Phillips. Gabrielle Betton, Holden Roberts. Okay, that is a real name. Charles Moore. I was trying to figure out with the, what's a Roberts.character. What are we holding?Got it. All right. Charles Moore, Dan Zines, Danzines, 1987,
02:52:11Devin Prout, Galad Horane, what?Sheila McComans, Doug Carlton, Evey McKenzie,Coley, Coley Stroud, Cindy would know last name.Dean Goldsmith, Rees would no last name. Danielle would no last name.Garrett would no last name. Peggy Metzker, Melissa Dickinson.Jenny would no last name. M. Casper, 1996. Melissa F. Aaron Williams.Ryan, nope, that's Sally. Redmond.Mitchell.
02:52:40Sally and Ryan, I mix those up all the time.Understandable.Common mistake. Mitchell Gildea.He's terrific on Instagram.Natalie Nelson, Jane Fitzpatrick, Big Nate, Robin Adamson, RPSGT.I don't know what those is.Cloister Moist, when your cloister is dry.I don't know what that is.
02:53:01James Bignell, Bennell, maybe.Begneux.B with no last name.Jonathan Garcia, Memo Lira, Jaden Severe,Carrie Palmer, Connie Below Spencer.Evidentially, she's under Spencer.Craig Breeze, Evan, Evan Hosinski,Amber Jean Goodman, Renee Mitrovich,
02:53:22Nikki Nelson Rowley, Judy Irby, Lilith with no last name,like Faire, Melissa with no last name,Sharon Concanon, Bambi Lynn, Lane Sears,Kevin V. Aaron Tricker. Laura Walker, A.J. Mahuel. Sarah Mail. Mali? I don't know. Jay, nope, that's Stephen. Nope, that's Steve Sessna. Deanna or Dina. That's better. Melanie Pacific. Kuro Kabata. Megan Reese. Elizabeth Ehorn. Lana Ayad. Sydney with no last name. Delilah Waggie. Stacey Williamson. Alex Tinker. Amanda Loth. Eddie Leboff Jr. Labouf.Leboff.Jody would know last name.Dina Katz.What is it, Jody?
02:54:07Oh, no, no.One of the names sounded like a character from something.Dina Katz.Oh, it's Eddie Lebeck from Cheers.There it is.Emily Dye.Helen Yang.Oh, don't.
02:54:18Victoria.What the fuck is?S.J.Shoblo.You just moved your glasses like that would help.God, damn.That's not going to help.You moved your glasses up and down like there was some.
02:54:28What's going on there?Where's a letter?It's missing a letter.Focus was the problem.Sjobloam.Renee would know the last name.Autumn yielding.Yielding.
02:54:38Savannah Sanchez.Your mom gay.Maybe your mom is.Jennifer Elserio.If my mom was, I wouldn't be here.That's impossible.Well, you might be.She could have been somebody else's mom.
02:54:50What I mean?Daniel Morris.Dalton, Lawrence.Lawrence.Josh would know last name.Gail 10A.Imagine Dragon D's nuts.I will imagine that.
02:55:00Nicholas Springer.Dennis Farrell, Delane, Deline, Delane, Antoinette Kruger, Bridget Beck, Cassie, Giguare, Giguerre, Bethany Arthur, Deep Friede, Italian, Philip Bustamante, Jessica Hulsey, Heather Shudders, Deontay Holland, Jay Legler, Marion Gonzalez, Help Mock, I Live Here, Okay, Pippon Pipperton, Erica would know last name, Trent would know last name,Shannon M. Michaela Verst Vorholst.Melissa Stebbins.Sherry O'Farrell, Johnny on the spot.Joanne Moore.Paul Moreno.Tim McCormick.
02:55:42Joanne Luzo.Juliana Cruz.Katie Schmitz.Victoria Honeywild.Tommy Spence.Amanda would know last name.Gina Berr.Oh, boy.
02:55:53Bernardini.Liz would Liz Dee.Jessica Townsill.Lauren Conisaro.Michael Wedderland.Beth would know last name. Tabitha Buengue.Rob King. Casey would know last name. Nick Smith,Verdante Volpine. What?
02:56:09I didn't get that right.Susan Rompah, Tabitha Nelson, Tom Mackey Susan, would know last name.Elise Alice, Elise Rates, Katie Porter, perhaps.I hope it's that. I hope it's that one.Don Scarborough. Matt DiPiarto.DiPerto. Is that how it is?Yeah.It sounds like a frozen pizza brand.
02:56:32It's Italian.Jessica Cusack.Joseph LeMaster.Justine Yates.Lichen.Lichen 90.I don't know what that is.Danielle Ziglavski.
02:56:42Zyglovsky.Travis Heath, Bisa Justice.Jen would know last name.Sophia McCreary.Kerry would know last name.Simon would no last name.Ed Fox.Brittany Black Will.
02:56:53Decent.Denise Flood.Heather.Kenny Brook.Rob West.Caleb DeWitt, Kaylee Thomas, Jessica Wysaki, Chiang, Chiang, J. Ed, exotic minivan. That's not a thing.Boot War. Mary Elizabeth, Lauren Ball, or Bell, it's Ball.Lori Ditchfield, Izzy with no last name. Be Boo. Susie Homebody, Gloria, James. That's how I was going to read something. That's Gloria, Haywood.
02:57:24Gloria. That's made it sound like a fucking STD somehow. It's a disease. I got the Gloria.Maria, man. It's bad. It's all over the price.Rebecca Durr.Spread to my ass, man. It's the worst.Pia Thompson.Isaac Watson.Crispy Mittens. I don't know what that is.Christine would know last name.
02:57:43Chad would no last name. Caitlin Morrie.Amy Shackleford. Dylan would no last name.Dale Louise. Chris Hamlin.Olivia Wilson.Chris Mearling. Joshua Elberry.Linda D. D. Daly.Bethany Bolt. Kristen Johnson.Tim rushing, Meguel.
02:58:00Oh, Miguel, James.Miguel would know the last name.Dustin Schroarer.Charles Hickey.Adam Manning, lone Saturn.I guess that's a star.No, it's not.Benjamin Grundy.
02:58:17I just tried to talk myself into something.I'm going to walk away from it.Kenneth Knox, Charles Horn, Chris Imans.Yep, Renee Hopkins.Irma Irma.Irma, Mulvah Hill.Molde Hill.Davis, Vandy Steig, Lindsay Doherty, Linda Harris, Rella, with no last name, Segole with no last name, Trentner, Trenton Turner, Andrew McRitchie,
02:58:45Katie McCurdy, Vern Resky, Bobby Hagamister, Jared Hammond, Lisa Yazel, Ashley Ray, Walter would no last name, Tim Brazil, Jared Smith, Ralph would no last name, Sandra Dye,Ashley Bryant, Amanda Cajard, Cajdan, Missy B would know last name.Elizabeth Leroux, Keegan Vanderpull, Tracy and San Diego, Stephen, Stephen Farrell, Stephen Farrell,Johnny Batch, there was a guy named Batch, right?Taryn, Perkins, there he is, Fernando Enrique, DeBarros, Chloe Schmidt, Rob Hatfield, of the McCoys, James Hinton,Francisco, that's fun to say.Medina, Devin,Henry T, Michelle
02:59:32with no last name, Kim Robinson,and Oliver patrons. Thank you so much.Thank you so much, everybody.You're spectacular, wonderful bastards.We goddamn love the shit at you,and just thank you for all that you do for us.Keep coming back and seeing us. Head over to shut upand give me murder.com if you want to follow us on
02:59:49social media. All of these shithas a drop-down menu. Follow it to whereveryou want to take it. Don'tfuck your aunt. Oh, boy.And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.Bye.
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