Small Town Murder - Suitcases Full Of Murder Woodbridge Township New Jersey

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

This week, in Woodbridge Township, New Jersey, several matching suitcases found in different places, all contain body parts that add to a a whole person. This leads to an investigation that reveals a shady spouse, some of the most incriminating internet searches ever typed, and one of the most brutal & senseless murders possible. Will anyone be held responsible??   Along the way, we find out that local radio DJs aren't the greatest live performers for a festival, that you should always assume that your internet searches will be read into a court record, some day, and that fake alibis sometimes come back to haunt you!!   New episodes, every Wednesday & Friday nights!! Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions!   Follow us on... instagram.com/smalltownmurder facebook.com/smalltownpod   Also, check out James & Jimmie's other shows, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts!!

This week, we look at Woodbridge Township, New Jersey, where suitcases full of body parts washing up from the ocean leads to a local man, a lot of lies, and maybe the biggest liar of all time. Welcome to Small Town. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petro Gallo. I'm my co-host.

I'm Jimmy Wiseman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today. we have a crazy story for you, as usual here for small town murder. This is our Christmas spectacular. Fantastic. It's really just a warm and fuzzy family special this week, as it always is. The newborn king. Oh, it's beautiful stuff.

So you're going to be sitting there with the fire gently going. Yeah, you're going to have the soft, maybe a holy night playing in the background. And then this, it's going to be perfect for you. So let's get right into it definitely before we do, though. We definitely want to say, head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for live shows. All of 2026 is for sale right now, starting off with February 21st and Nashville. Get those tickets.

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That's the name of our show we've been doing for 10 years. How do I mess that up? That's our 4A. I say, welcome to crime and sports every week and do all that. But crime in sports, listen to that. We've done some crazy episodes lately, so you don't have to like sports at all. We just did an Australian kayaker, so you definitely don't have to like sports. We don't talk much about the kayaking.

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We'll do a poll and it's going to be either old-timey crimes, which people are always asking for more of. Either that or this crazy mall collapse that killed a bunch of people. One or the other. Where was that? It doesn't matter. Let me know what you think. We'll do that. We'll put up a poll

and we'll find out. So that's patreon.com slash crime and sports. Quickly, the disclaimer, this is a comedy show, everybody. We're comedians. The stories are sadly, insanely real. We wish they weren't honestly. I wish we could just make up crazy stories like this every week, but

I don't think Stephen King could write this much this every week. It'd be crazy. Nothing's, you know, embellished for comic effect or anything like that, because the stories are crazy enough to where they're horrifying and they're insane and kind of are funny on their own. Yeah? Why? Because we make fun of

murderers. That's why. It's always a dumb decision. Hey, I think I can get away with this. Yeah, no, no, I can kill her and just put her over here. No one will find her. That's a crazy thing to do. And it's, we can can't help them make fun of that. But what we don't do, though, is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why is that, James?

Because we're assholes. But we're not scumbags. See how that works? It's real easy to do that. If you think that true crime and comedy should never go together, I don't know, maybe we're not for you. But you should probably give it a shot. I think maybe you might be happily mistaken. And if you don't, though, if you want to hear a crazy story, you're about to.

I think it's time to sit back, everybody. What do you say here? clear the lungs and let's arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we?

We gotta. New Jersey this week. Yes. To New Jersey. That's hard to say too. Going to Woodbridge Township, New Jersey. Okay. And this is going to be in like kind of north centralish jersey, kind of off on the east.

It's about 35 minutes to New York City. about an hour 10 to Philly, about 40 minutes to Garfield, New Jersey, our last New Jersey episode, episode 619, so exactly 50 episodes, oh no, 40, whatever. Brutal murder, stupid murderer. And that was a, I remember, that was a really, really wild episode. This, the guy tried to represent himself. So anytime you get a murderer representing themselves, that is a good episode. I know that for a fact.

This is in Middlesex County, Area Code 732. It has, I guess, mottos and nicknames. two of them. One is the crossroads of New Jersey. Yeah. Which I don't even... Yeah. Great. It's all right there. By the way, I am from New York, so making fun of New Jersey is

kind of a... It's just a thing you grow up with in your blood. It's part of your heritage. And I'm sure they do the opposite. It's all in good fun. We don't care. It's like Yankees and Red Sox fans. It's ball breaking. I think everybody's got one that they do that with. Minnesota and Iowa. Tucson. Yeah. Phoenix just does it with

Owls and pros. It's all the same. Another city. Because they're like, I don't know, we can't really compare this piece of shit to any other piece of shit. Well, they try to have a rivalry with L.A., but it's like, not really a rivalry. Yeah. There's no beach. You can't compare it. Being a five-year-old and punching your older brother in the mouth after when he gets home from the Marines. You know what I mean? It's like, come on. It's not really the same thing. It's Crossroads of New Jersey and the best town around. Yeah.

At least it's not the best town in the world like that other place, the best town on Earth. Like, best town, you know, within a few miles of here. You know what I mean? Maybe in the county, but not the whole county. Like this part of the county. Yeah, best town that touches this area. You know what I mean? Best town within an hour driving distance.

That's all, you know. So not even because New York City is 35 minutes. 20 minutes. Anywhere within like six, seven miles of here, basically, is what we're talking about. It's the best over there. So history, it's the oldest township in the state of New Jersey. Oh. So that's pretty cool.

It was settled in the early autumn of six. 1664 and was granted a charter by King Charles of England in 1669. Yeah. So this is way, way old. King Charles. King Charles. Now Woodbridge is the site of the first grist mill in New Jersey as well. Right.

Take all your grain there. Grist it up. The mill was built by Jonathan Singletary Dunham and who's got a house there, which is hilarious because it's this house and it's a nice house. and he's buried right in front of the front door. Big tombstone. So it's like, yeah, I'll pass it down. Yeah.

You're going to whack your shin on me all the time. Yeah, yeah. If the kids are playing wiffleball, I'm third base. So, you know what I'm saying? Like, you're going to remember me. I'm never leaving. No one's sticking me in the back corner of a cemetery. Coming once every five years.

None of that bullshit. Every time you leave the house. Yep. Every goddamn time you leave the house. So that's how that goes. Now Woodbridge was, also it was named after Reverend John W. Woodbridge. Sure. Oh, that was a name, Woodbridge?

Woodbridge was a guy. Before it was a cheap wine that got people to kill their boyfriends and suitcases. It was a man, a town. So you could buy it in a half-gallon servings. Yeah, where you could buy magnums of it. There it is, for fucking $14. That is funny. Oh, man.

So now, famous people in this town. We have Kelsey Grammaris from here. I don't know if this is where his brother was eaten by a shark or not off the waters. I'm not sure. I want to know. Former Governor Jim McGreevy, who's a governor of New Jersey and had a big sex scandal also. You may have heard from that. And then a couple of Bon Jovi members, Richie Sanborra and Tico Torres as well.

Now, we've never been here. So let's find out with some reviews what other people think about this town because what do we know? So here's five stars. I have had a great time in Woodbridge Township, and there was never a time when I have felt unsafe here. Not once. Not once. Wow. I met the greatest people here and the bestest friends.

Okay. This person's eight. That's why they've never. They don't know what danger is. That's why. I wouldn't change it for the world. Yeah, that sounded like a Disney character wrote that in a letter to another Disney character. I found the town.

For the bestest friends. For the world? For the world, yeah. You're going to have the world or Woodbridge, New Jersey? I wouldn't change it for the world. Okay. Four stars. Growing up in Woodbridge was great.

They had almost anything a person would need to get by. Food, water, shelter, at all. Yeah, the basics. The basics. We are close to most of the state. Okay. I don't know how that's even possible. Most.

There's some of it that's too far. Close to most of the state. So nothing is too far. It is a safe town. with crime. Oh. Okay, this person is just, my head hurts now. I love candy.

It's sugary but also dry. We're close to most of the state. It's safe but with crime. Yeah. I don't know what's going on. But nothing you would expect with a town with a population of over 100,000, which is what they have now. On top, there is plenty of things to do for families like going to the mall. Big day for everybody.

Oh, man. You know you're in the burbs when you're like, there's plenty to do. There's a mall. Yeah. Well, careful. I heard those collapse. You know that? Yeah.

Two stars. Most people keep to themselves. Mind you fucking business. Yeah, yeah. Best town in the world. Crossroads in New Jersey. Mind you fucking business. Those are our mottoes.

They have annoying dogs who barked throughout the day and night. Day and night. They also take their sweet time turning their car alarm off when it goes off. This guy has one neighbor that this review is about. He's like, I mean, they keep to themselves, but. The dogs and the alarm. And then one star finally, okay, a very political town. Oh.

The same people work for Woodbridge Township for more of 40 years. More of 40 years. More of 40. If you go to the borough and ask for something, which is your legal right, like, and this is in quotes, O-P-R-A. Yeah. Your legal right like Oprah. Yeah. I have a right to Oprah.

and I went down to the town hall and I demanded my Oprah and they won't give it to me. Expect an attitude instead of the requested report. Someone let Oprah know this is happening. Yeah, this is bad. Oprah's reports. Oprah's reports. People in this town currently 103,353. And it's gone up a significant amount.

Yeah, it's 35 minutes from New York City. So it's very, very commutable. Yeah. And you could even communicate. to Philly if you want it to. Sure. That's not a bad thing if you're in a place and you're looking for a job and you can look in either of two major American cities and you're, you know what I mean? That's pretty, most people don't have that advantage. That's pretty good stuff. It's a few more guys than

women here, which is weird for a town with population like this. It's 51.3% guys. What the hell is going on here? Median age in this town, 40.2, which is a couple years older than the national average, but nothing crazy. More married people than normal. It's about 55% married. This is a suburb. Yeah. You know, this is, you used to have a place in the city and then you had a couple of kids and it got too cramped and so you moved here to have a yard. This is, this is what you do here. And it's very low, like single with children, very low divorce rate. Divorce is only, there's only 7% of the people here are divorced. Is that right? In the country, it's like 60%. This is like 7. It's wild. Well, I think 60% end in divorce.

I don't know if 60% of people have been divorced, but race of this town here. They will be eventually. Race of this town, you wait for it, set your watch. 43.6% white, 10.8% black, 24.5% Asian. A lot of Asian people in central New Jersey here. 18.9% Hispanic. Religion in this town, 57% religious here. That's higher than most.

Normally it's 50-50. but 42% of the people here are Catholic because as we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the North, everybody. We all know that. That is a lot. 1.9% Jewish. Hey!

Hey, look at that. We can finally sing the damn song. It's been so long. Havah, Nahlia. Hapha, Nahlia. Hapha, Nahlia. I don't know the words. Hey.

Hey. There we go. We got that out. Excellent. So, yeah, we're always shocked. If there's 1% is the threshold. We're just like, wow. Most towns we do, it's just not.

There's no, there's just, you know, if it's down south, it's all Baptist. If it's up north, it's all Catholics, and that's that. If it's out west, it's all Mormons. There you go. We like that. So Woodbridge Township's unemployment rates about average. Median household income here is above average. In the rest of the country, it's about $69,000.

Here it is $98,08,000, which is damn good. But the, that's because you can work in either place. But the cost of living also is a little bit higher. Cost of living 100 being average. Here it's 124.7. So a little high. Housing is about 109. Median home cost here.

Not bad. 431,500 bucks. Why does that sound so fucking high? It sounds high. But if you compare it to like, if you work in Manhattan, compare it to what it costs to live there, they go, wow, that's cheap. That's nothing.

Yeah, right. You know, so if we've convinced you, damn it. Here we go. You need to be in Woodbridge Township, New Jersey. You think there is a central New Jersey, and you're going to find it. We have for you the Woodbridge Township, New Jersey Real Estate Report. Average two-bedroom rental here goes for $2,020 bucks, which is almost 800 more than the national average. That is a steep, steep price there.

So it might be better off to buy a place if you're going to pay that much anyway. House number one is a two-bedroom, two-bath, So T-bowl, technically T-bowl for every beehole there. But, you know, 832 square feet. So you're not fitting a lot of bee-holes in that place. It's basically a condo. It's a house that's split into two, a duplex, basically. So you have two front doors, and one's your neighbors and one's yours.

You share a wall. It's okay. It's not bad. It's got, like, you know, it's got some room in there. For 832 square feet, it looks bigger than that. It looks like it's done pretty nicely. $389,000 for that. Oh, boy.

So that's a little steep for a half a house. For an apartment, essentially. House number two, three bedroom, two bath, 1245 square feet. Kind of your standard, you know, family starter type home. Nice inside, nothing wrong with it. You know, like a kitchen's been done in the last 10 years. It's fine. $479,000 for that, though.

$1,000,000. $1,000.45 square feet. This isn't not on a bunch of land or anything like that. It's wild. Then house number three, seven bedroom, seven bath. T-bowl for each and every beehole. 4,569 square feet. It's wild.

It's got a big yin-yang thing in the driveway. Whoever did this was a douchebag. It's got like lions up front. When you look at it, being an Italian guy, I look at this house. and when you look at the gaudiness of it, you go, well, I still can't, is it Persians or Italians that live here? I can't tell, but it's one of the fucking two. I'll tell you that much right now.

A guy named Vinny owned that house at some point. I know it. And he's probably related to me. He might even be renting it out. He could be renting it out. It's gaudy inside. It's nice. It's like the bones of the house are very pretty,

but it's very gaudy, so it's hard to see past the gaudiness. One million two hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine bucks, which... A million dollars. That's expensive, but for a half hour from New York City for 4,600 square foot house, that's not bad. That's a pretty decent price. I mean, if you're making big money, I guess. Now, things to do here, the 50th annual St. James Fair.

What is that? They have a fair. It's a fair. They say they have new and exciting entertainment games and rides as well as famous foods. Exciting, yeah. Including a specialty booth, an American booth. an Italian booth, a Lebanese booth, and more. Now, musical acts that they have here.

Oh. Thursday, they'll have Johnny Spasano streaming live music from the Border 106 with their mobile station vehicle. Oh, yeah. The radio station DJ. Yep, Johnny Spasano will be there, and he's going to be broadcast and live. This guy is an interesting looking guy. Let me just put it that way. Friday, they have the 10th Division Mountain, our 10th,

Mountain Division rock band which I believe is a group of soldiers who perform at events and do like a band I don't know

if they just play like stars and stripes forever over and over again or if they play regular shit but we don't know I tried to find him

and I could not find like I couldn't tell if it was that there's a bunch of other bands with similar names so it's hard to tell Saturday though DJ Joe Ablin

will be there hell yeah who just looks like an Italian guy into this guy spinning all the... He looks like he's like hanging out at a pool at a country club. Like that's the look of this guy.

Like he's real tan and real like like he looks like he works out too much. Very Jersey, yeah. Then the twirling saints will be there. Hell yeah. So that's exciting. Twirl it up. Then we have the Patty Stanford band. Which is an old lady and four old men.

Literally. And like the picture of their band is like in the middle of a field. There's a pickup truck and she's like sitting on the bed and all the guys are like leaning on the truck. They all look like your grandpa who teaches wood shop. That's what they all look like. It's really weird. They all look like they whittle. Yeah, they all look like they whittle.

It's a lot of fun there. So yeah, there's also rides and a dunking booth and gambling. Oh. Gambling, wine, beer, tent. So in one tent you get gambling, wine and beer. That's the fun tent. And then there's a dunking booth and an ice cream booth and all that bullshit. James, a lot of people like to call those an underground casino. Although it's probably legal, I'm sure. Or someone's looking the other way. Who knows?

Whatever. Either way. We're just having a good time. Either way, listen, I didn't see nothing. That's all I'm saying. If we get a couple of chips there. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here, property crime is about one quarter beneath the national average. So under the average. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault, out Rushmore of crime is also about a quarter under the average. Great. People are doing well here, living safe and, you know, apparently they have money. They're buying a million-dollar houses.

Seems like a nice place, I guess. So that said, let's talk about some murder here. Okay. We are going to start this off on May 5, 2004. Now, we're not going to start off in New Jersey either. We're going to start off near the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel in Virginia, which is worst invention in history. Long-ass thing where you go on a bridge for what seems like 50 miles, but it's not that long.

And then you go, the bridge disappears into the water. That's the crazy shit. It just, dude, it's just gone. Like it looks like it collapsed, but it didn't. That's when you go in a tunnel for 80 to 90 miles or so. And then you pop back up for another 400 miles of bridge. That's what it looks like. And you were doing fine.

You were almost done, matter of fact. I'd much rather just be in a boat through all this. It looks terrifying. I guess they do that so you don't have to have a draw bridge. Is that the point? I think it's too long to have a bridge bridge. So they do that so you can have some sort of bridge across it. I don't think a draw bridge or any other bridge would hold.

I don't think you could build the, I don't think you could do it that far. I think physics at some point says, okay, that's long enough probably. I would imagine. So this day, there's a guy named Chris Henkel. He's got a day off and he's got a fishing date with his buddy. named D. Connors. They're going to go out and do some fishing today. It's early May, the start

of the trophy fishing season in Chesapeake Bay. So you're going to get some good fish out there. And Henkel said, we dropped anchor because they said when they were getting on the boat, the weather was real nice. And then as they started going out there, it started to get shitty in the weather.

Started to get a little choppy, some rain, some stuff like that. But they were still having a good time. So they dropped anchor. He said, fishing wasn't real good that day. But we caught a couple of little mud sharks, some little spot and flounder, the kids were having a blast. The kids don't care what you're catching. As long as they're reeling something in. If it's wiggling on the other end of the hook, that's a...

I did it. Yeah, I did it. It's like a magic trick, you know, for a kid. So by 10 a.m., the rain had stopped, and it started warming up a little bit. So they said, okay, they turned back toward the four artificial islands where the fishing was good, because a lot of times fish like to hang around structures and islands and things like that. So they passed Island 4 and the two guys are bullshitting in the back of the boat. And there's a 12-year-old kid named Sam that one of them has.

And he has a little sister and the kids are playing. That's what's going on. So suddenly this guy's buddy D says, hey, you just passed a suitcase floating in the water. Yeah. Turn around. Let's check it out. First of all, the answer is, nope. No.

Why? The answer is keep driving. And then when you're a half mile away, go, you say something? Suit guy, I don't know. Who knows about that? Anyway, so we're going up this way. Let's check it out. So he cut the engine.

Clearly a robbery just threw their shit over the bridge. Obviously. This fell out of a plane coming from Newark. We have no idea. So they turn around and they see a medium-sized dark green suitcase, just floating. Bobbing in the water. So they pull up alongside it. And so Conner's, that guy, the friend and his son grabbed the handle of the suitcase and pulled it on board, just like you're taking it off the luggage thing at the airport.

But it was heavy. They're trying to pull it on board, but it's really heavy. They can't get it. And it's, you know, water in it through at this point, even heavier. So Henkel comes over and they have to pull it up together. Two hands, yeah. It's either full of gold bullion. or we're going to have a bad day now.

One or the other. Let's be realistic. Did you think it was gold bullion? Did you? Because, I mean, even if it's like cocaine, that's not going to weigh very much. You know, a couple of a few pounds, that's not that much. So anyway, they bring it on and the 12-year-old boy thinks it's great. He said, it's a pirate's treasure.

Yeah. Sure. Pirates don't have suitcases, kids. Absolutely not a pirate's treasure. I don't think gold floats, buddy. Holy shit. And he's all excited, unzipped, and he starts unzipping the suitcase.

It's a pirate's treasure. Yeah. What's going to be, it's just going to be full of gold coins and like pearl necklaces and shit. It's going to be amazing. So then the little boy opens it up and it's just a bunch of black plastic trash bags

all in there. That's all it's there. It's just a bunch of. plastic around something. So Henkel, the guy with the boat said, I was nervous and looking around. Did we pick up something we shouldn't have? He thinks it might be

drugs and someone's going to be pissed off at him for picking this up out of the water, which is a fine, honestly, that is a really sane reaction to it. Oh shit, someone might be mad we did this. This is why you mind your own business. Is it your suitcase? No?

Keep on going. So East Coast dumps There's a lot of things dumped in the ocean that you don't want. Yeah, there's tons of stuff. Medical waste, Gambino family members, peep things. Fucking garbage, you never know. So it's a pirate's treasure and he's opening it up. So the guy said, yeah, did I pick up something we shouldn't have?

Is whoever dropped it still here trying to make sure it sinks too? Great question. Is this a mob hit with a bunch of body parts and they're watching it sink? And they go, some asshole just picked it up. but now they're going to come over and talk to them. He got a boat. So, yeah. So this guy, as he's opening his mouth to tell the kid to zip the suitcase back up, the kid's ripping open the bags.

Because he thinks there's a treasure in there. What there is, though, is this kid opens up the bags and it's a pair of legs. Yeah. Just legs? Yeah. Just human legs. That's it. That's the only thing in the suitcase.

severed from the knees down. Yeah. So there's knees somewhere else. And below. Yeah. Oh, boy. So that's not what you want. You're proud of yourself, Jr.?

What I tell you, this is why you mind your own fucking business. That kid will always mind his own business from now on. So this is a valuable lesson for this young boy. It still might be a pirate with two peg legs, James. It's possible. Yeah, it's a treasure all right. So he screams, the boy, obviously.

So they all just stared at the legs for a minute, Just like, what do we do with this now? I was really there. Yeah. Then this guy, Henkel, says the most obvious thing that's ever been said in the world. Quote, I knew it was foul play. Did you? I think somebody killed themselves, exploded their legs off, placed them in a suitcase,

wrapped him in black plastic, and dumped him in the fucking Atlantic. It's a real accident. Yeah. I knew it was foul play. Then I really started looking over my shoulder. Those legs looked very, very fresh. they're new. They didn't have an odor.

Still got that new leg smell. They're so new. Still got that new leg smell. Jesus. After closing the bag, he dialed 911 on his cell phone. Smart, yeah. So he said, quote, she thought I was kidding. I said, no, no, no, I need someone to come here and pick this thing up.

We're holding legs, guys. I'm two seconds away from tossing this shit back in the ocean. Like, I'm not doing this. So that is what happens. And so there are a group of people out on a nice day in a boat that are now staring at legs. That said, let's go back in time and talk about some people. Okay. Okay.

Let's leave that right there and we'll pick that up later. Now, let's talk about William Theodore McGuire. Ted. Ted. Bill, actually. Billy Ted. Bill and Ted. One guy.

He's one guy. He's got them both. So he's born September 21st, 1964. in River Edge, New Jersey. He's the youngest of three kids. He's got two older sisters, Cindy and Nancy. And Bill and Ruth are his parents. I don't know if he's a junior, though.

I know he's both Bill, but we don't know if the middle name's the same. His father worked for the New York Times as a pressman, and his mother was a stay-at-home was a homemaker, a stay-at-home mom type. I'm wearing a printing press? That's kind of cool. Yeah, there's a pressman. That's pretty neat. So they're a blue-collar family. They live in the Bronx. That's where they live to begin with, which is where a lot of my family's from.

And the New York Times doesn't pay that well, but they have their union and they have good benefits. Sure. So the kids all have very good health insurance and they have stuff like that. So they do have that. They just don't make a ton of money. So they have their first child in 1955, and that's Cindy. And then they have Nancy five years later. And then they have Bill Jr., I guess.

Now, soon after Nancy was born, though, They moved, the family moved to a larger apartment in River Edge. And, you know, so that's kind of how that went. So the kids are basically spaced out five years. It's like 55, you know, 60s, 50, 64 type of thing. In 1968, Bill and Ruth get a divorce, which back then was a big deal. Yeah. 55?

68. Oh, 68. Still a big deal. So the three children move out with mom, with Ruth, and they move into a two-story home in East Patterson, New Jersey. Now, the fucked up part, this family is kind of just got a lot going on. Over the next few years, Bill Sr. and Ruth would marry and divorce several times. Each other? Each other.

They're getting back together and breaking up over and over again. Over and over again. So that is a lot, man. That ain't easy to deal with. Imagine you're a kid, your parents break up, which we've all been there. But I mean, not all of us, but most of us, we've been there. But then your dream is, what would be great if they got back together, they get back together and then get divorced again. And then they get back together and then they do it again.

It's got to be like really trying for a kid, taxing. Ruth was forced to get a night job to support them. And basically, Cindy, the oldest daughter, was the. began to be the caretaker from the kids from that moment on. Okay. From the time the first divorce happened when mom had to work at night.

By 1974, Ruth is very strict, by the way. Oh? Really strict. So this is a tumultuous family anyway. There's obviously chaos. People who get married and divorced like four times. That's chaos.

They like chaos. So that's not the only piece of chaos they have. There's chaos all through their fucking house, basically. It sounds like Ruth is a hard woman, but Bill probably isn't a picnic. No, no, no, Bill is kind of a little pain in the ass, but he's the youngest and he's a boy, so he's doted on by his two sisters. Oh, Bill Sr. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm sure they're both a mess.

Two of them together are so fucking tough. Yeah, yeah, no, it takes two to chaos. That's the thing. Yeah, absolutely. One person can be chaotic, but then you break up with them and you move on, but to seek the chaos out over and over again knowing what it is. They're both chaotic, period. Tango and chaos are the same beat. Same beat.

That's exactly right. It's right where I was going. Yeah. So by 1974, Nancy, who's only about 14 at this point, doesn't want to live there anymore. Oh. She later accused her father of molesting her also. So there is a lot going on here. To the fact that both of these girls end up leaving home at a young age.

Yeah. Generally, kids who are 14 don't want to be taken from their homes. No. Unless something bad's going on. You know what I mean? She said, Nancy said, quote, I asked to go into a foster home. How many kids asked to go to foster care? Can I go be abused and called worthless?

You remember on the wire when Wallace was handing out juice boxes to all the kids and they're leaving? And the one kid didn't want to go to school. And he's like, you want to end up in foster care? that's worse than living in a fucking abandoned building with no electricity or bathrooms where your brother gives you a juice box and tells you to split a bag of chips with your other brother. Foster care is worse than that.

And she's like, I asked to go to foster care. Yeah, because I didn't want to run away, she said, but she wanted to get the fuck out of the house. And she did. She got out of the house. Wow, make my transition stable is all she wants. Yeah, that's brutal, man. So there's bad stuff going on there. Now, when Bill was 12 here, mid-70s, his sister Cindy left home and married a pharmacist named Bill Lagosh, so she became Cindy Lagosh, and left, now it's just little Bill, 14-year-old teenage Bill alone with his mother.

Soon afterwards, Ruth moves to Clifton, New Jersey. Bill enrolls in Clifton High School. His sister, Cindy, said he was a B student, but he always had friends. Apparently, he did not like living with his husband. mother either there didn't like living with ruth Cindy said it was hard for him he was her entire focus and there was no buffer so yeah someone's a strict disciplinarian and there's three people to disperse some of that discipline it's what but if it's just you you are the prime focus of all the attention you're going to not be able to move so at age 15 Bill ran away from home wow which is again teenage kids don't run away and try to stay away usually unless there's very bad shit going on. They run away for a day and come back, but they don't stay away.

And he stayed gone. Well, he showed up at Cindy's house, at his sister's house in Vernon Township and said, can I live here? Yeah. I want to live with you guys. I got to get the fuck away from mom. Now, Cindy said, more sympathetic I could not be. Yeah, yeah, but.

You know, no, he said, she said fine. That's how bad she said it sucks at home. I know it does. So move in with us. So after consulting their mother, Billy, you know, they make a deal where Billy's going to move in with his sister permanently. And so they make him a part of the family. Now, Cindy and her husband have a baby daughter that he would bill would babysit.

So, you know, he's helping out around the house. They tried to kind of be the parents that he never really had, basically. You know, loving and guiding and not chaotic, basically. And he loved the stability. He said, this is great. It's so, with dinners on the table every time, every night. You know, I know what's going to happen. you're not going to get divorced

then remarried again. It's pretty cool. Cindy said, I looked at Bill as a son. He said, for I more or less performed the functions of his mother. So he enrolls at Vernon Township High School in the middle of his junior year and he makes friends with a guy named Lenny Polsky who's going to be an important figure

in his next few years of formative living here. Now, he's not a great student though, Bill. No? He just doesn't really care about school. It's not his, and it's, it's the, it's also, it's the mid-70s. It's just, it's just the time, the place, his upbringing, and some people just aren't that interested in it. I was one of them. Yeah, yeah. Couldn't focus.

We exist, man. That's it. Tired of us always being so goddamn ignored. Ignored as we speak to hundreds of thousands of people over a fucking microphone. My plight is ignored. Oh, God, how do you know when your ego's out of control? When I complain that nobody hears me through a microphone to hundreds of thousands of people, would be the answer to that.

My struggle is valid. That's amazing. And it is, but people do hear us. Sure, yeah. Nobody cares. Like, nobody cares about anybody's strife. In 1999, nobody gave up. Oh, no, no, then nobody cared.

Yeah, we had no microphone then. So Bill showed no interest in extracurriculars. He would cut class all the time. Lenny Polsky, his friend, said he had a rocky relationship with his mom. He was just a rebel. He was a hothead. Yeah. And that's the other thing, too.

When he come from a troubled household, you tend to have troubles. Sure. Sometimes. So, you know, that's kind of how it went. I mean, everybody had left the house young. And so that's kind of how it is. Now, Len Polsky, his friend, eventually he ends up going to live with him. For some reason.

Just with a pal, huh? Which is, yeah, weird. Now, Len's sister Marcy, who we'll talk about plenty, Marcy with an eye, she said that Bill had a lot of issues. My mom invited him to live with us. Oh. So now she said, Marcy said she feared Bill's father. She said Bill's father was a scary guy. Oh, okay.

So when a 12-year-old girl is scared of a guy, it's a scary guy. It's a bad man usually, yeah. Yeah, and she, because Marcy was 12 when he moved in, and he was 16, 17, so she got a big crush on him. Oh, Marcy. She was like, I like him. You know, a 12-year-old would have a crush on a 17 year. He's got a car, you know what I mean? He's doing adult things, yeah.

Yeah, because when you're that age, that's like an adult who's still a kid. Yeah, right. They have, like, adult stuff, but they're still a kid. Like, they're still, like, in school and shit, so it seems, you know, normal. but Bill was dating a girl named Lisa and, you know, obviously wasn't trying to date a 12-year-old at the time. So, which is a good sign. Yeah. When you're 17, you shouldn't even notice a 12-year-old exists.

He's not interested in that at all. You should not even be looking at a 12-year-old as even on this earth to play with to talk to. Go away. You should say, do you have an older sister? That should be the only time you talk to a 12-year-old. Yeah, you have a sister with like a tits that grew out. With anything that is interesting to me? Yeah, you know.

Appetite for booze, anything? Anything. Lenny said my sister was mesmerized by him. He would sweet talk people that way. He's known as very charming, Bill, just how he is. Now, 1982, he graduates from high school and joins the Navy, which it seems like for a kid like him would be like kind of a perfect fit. Yeah.

He doesn't really have any direction he wants to go in. He's kind of a tear away. You might need a little bit of discipline. This might really help him a lot. So he did his boot camp at the U.S. Naval Basin Coronado in San Diego and then transferred to Vallejo for basic training. He's 5, 10, 180 pounds, you know, good shape, good looking guy. And he loved it. He loved the Navy.

He thought it was great. Really? Yeah. He wants some adventure. The Navy will give you that anyway. You'll go places and, you'll get tons of different STDs. You didn't even know existed. It's all sorts of stuff to do in the Navy. Hey, right there by Teowana.

I mean, forget it. He began general training in A school, which orientes raw naval recruits. One morning, another recruit named John Rice, they met each other, and they were, he came up to Bill. He found Bill and Bill was cracking jokes for a bunch of guys. Like he was making jokes, everybody was laughing. And John Rice said, I just wrote him off as some punk, a jerk. But I guess I was kind of envious of the attention he was getting. Look at this guy everybody's laughing at.

This scumbay. Yeah, he's a guy who like heckles at a comedy club. I don't like that he's getting all this attention, even though I paid to give him the attention to. I bought two drinks to give him attention. We bought tickets and drinks for this. Yeah, but that, thinking of him as a jerk does not last long because after not too short of time, they're best friends, Bill and John. And we'll remain best friends after the Navy and kind of for life here.

So now, John, this is amazing. The USS America, which is what they were on, got back to Norfolk in Virginia, and John Rice married his fiance named Sue. She'll come up later also. Now, they settle down in different quarters now. They get married quarters here to base, which are nicer quarters, basically. And one night, just in passing, he's talking to Bill, John is, and John Rice mentioned how, man, you get so much more money now, thanks. to the marriage benefits. You get money, you get better housing.

Like, everything's better if you're married. You know what I mean? It's so much better. He said, I told Bill, my paycheck basically doubled by getting married. Yeah. So he said, quote, he was like, okay, okay. And then he ran off. Okay.

Now, soon after that conversation, he called Marcy, Len's little sister who is 12. Now she's not 12 anymore. Now she's 17. She's a big girl, yeah. Yeah, he called her back in New Jersey and proposed to her. Really? They weren't even going out. Let's just get married.

This is like some weird 1800 shit where you're just like you propose to someone you talk to for five minutes because you thought they seemed nice. That's what she had to do back then. Yeah. My dad was a farm. You had to propose to someone to get to know them. Otherwise, you weren't allowed to get to know them. You had to fucking be ready to marry them. So he called her back.

She had just graduated from Vernon Township High School. and he said, hey, why don't you move to New Jersey and marry me and you can go to college down here? The Navy will even fucking pay for it. Sure. So she said, she's been in love with him since she was 12. Yeah. She said, absolutely. Oh.

I'm in. And the funny thing is, is this for love? What are we doing this for? Exactly. And John Rice, who John Rice, like I said, is his best friend, said, Bill was always trying to figure out the angle. And that's one of the main reasons he got married. The angle. The angle.

So Marcy got to Norfolk and they got married in a civil ceremony and they got a one-bedroom apartment in Chesapeake. A friend of theirs said it was a paper wedding. She was just young and foolish. Their relationship reminded me more of a brother and a sister than a husband and a wife. Oh. Because it's like an older brother. Yeah. That's the other thing too.

Like if you're friends with somebody and they have younger siblings, you're like protective of them also. So they're kind of like little sisters to you too. So especially if it's a close friend where you lived there and shit like that. So John and Sue Rice, they meet Marcy at a Navy picnic here. And Sue said Bill introduced her to us as his wife. We were very, very shocked. They didn't even know we got married. He just showed up.

Hey, look, here's my wife. Here she is. They remember Marcy as young and insecure and totally dependent on Bill. young and insurer. She's like a child. Yeah, she's like a child. She has no life experience. She graduated high school and got married.

You know what I mean? So John Rice said she was like a deer in the headlights. Anytime she was around him, she was in awe. She's just in love with him because she's, she has, it's literally childhood infatuation. Yeah. It's weird. So Marcy, yeah, they're getting married. They do all of that.

Now, just before Christmas, 1987, Bill called his sister, Cindy, out of the blue to wish her a happy holiday. And it was the first time they spoke in six years since she threw him out. Wow. She threw him out because he was being, you know, disrupting the house. He moved in with the Polskys.

And then that's what happened here. They haven't talked in six years. So, but now they're getting together. And Cindy said, in my family, we hold grudges. But once you make up, you don't have to say anything. Oh. Just make up and it's fine. So Bill invited Cindy to come to

Norfolk and meet his new wife. Come meet Marcy. So the next summer, she came for three days with her two children. She had a boy and a girl now. And she said it was the first time I got to see him in his uniform. He was adorable. He looked just like Tom Cruise. Adorable even.

Which, yeah. Now, the funny part, too, is the Tom Cruise reference is pretty funny. Yeah, telling of the time. Well, also in the book, yeah, this was, you know, that time period. But in the book, they talk about how there's. a book that I'll bring up later on. I'll give you the title. If I give you the title, it gives the whole story.

It ruins everything. So I'll give you to you at the end. So what ends up happening is he talks about how they would like, you know, they do their Navy shit during the day and then they go out and like party. And then like before sunset, they'd go play beach volleyball together. And I'm like, he's just describing Top Gun. It's literally a whole paragraph of him describing how they are fucking goose and maverick, basically.

It's fucking pathetic. It's so funny. So she said, the sister said when she first met Marcy, she couldn't understand why Bill married this girl. Really? He said she had no personality, no intelligence, nothing. She was a shock to everyone. She's just a wet piece of paper, basically, Marcy. No intelligence.

She's a young girl who's probably very intimidated by her older husband's older sister. You know what I mean? She's probably very, she's just probably intimidated. And at 18, a lot of people just don't have their voice yet. Yeah. They don't have their personality. They're meek. They haven't been out in the world and gotten kicked in the dick a bunch of times and gotten mad.

Feels like you know a lot, but you don't. Oh, you don't know a goddamn thing. So now Bill gets in trouble a lot. Bill, he's a cut up, I would call him. A little bit of a fuck up when it comes to shit. He doesn't like rules very much. Now, Bill had a lot of, As the book put it thusly, he played fast and loose with the rules during his six-year service with the Navy.

That says a lot. One time he was arrested by the Norfolk police for a minor felony involving checks, just a minor felony. You know. Felony? A light felony. Light felony. He was fingerprinted allowed to go home without being charged. So they just said, we'll keep an eye on you.

He liked sports cars. he had a Camaro and then he got a triumph TR7. One night he was out, yeah, one night he was out driving with his buddy Jim when he got pulled over by a state trooper for not wearing a seatbelt. So he denied it saying it would have been impossible to see whether he was wearing a belt or not. He said, you could not have seen whether I had a belt on or not. You're full of shit, basically. No, my car, the Corvette, the old vet, lap belt.

It has a hardest thing too, but it's super uncomfortable. There's no harness at all. It's just fucking lap belts, like airplanes. Yeah. So they argue for a few minutes and the trooper writes him a ticket for no seatbelt. Bill said, according to his friend, quote, is that it? Is that the best you can do? He said, you must be a rookie.

A real cop would have written me a lot more tickets than that. Don't do that. So the policeman said, okay, and started writing tickets for other shit. All right. Well, that's there, and you got a taillight out, and your license plate. You missed the tail light. Yeah, you miss that my registration's no good. Why would you do that?

Yeah, you messed everything up. This car isn't safe for the road. Give me a break. So on another occasion, according to his friend, Bill just decided, tonight we don't stop for red lights. Oh. Which is just very dangerous. That's fun, but also a way to get more killed.

That is not good. So he was ended up being chased down by a state trooper and ended up. getting a reckless driving charge off of that. Oh, Jesus. And his friend said, this was kind of silly, but that's the kind of guy Bill was. He was so larger than life. Is that what larger than life means? We're not stopping for red lights tonight.

I'm taking that in that every time I hear that. They were larger than life. Oh, they didn't stop at red lights? We're living LaVita Loca over here. We're fucking not stopping for red lights tonight. I'm a sultan for. Christ's sake. So 1990, he's discharged from the Navy, where he had worked as a computer specialist.

Oh. In 1992, he and Marcy moved to Edison, New Jersey, where everything in this marriage fell apart. Oh, damn it. Now, this is a weird thing, because this entire book never mentions this, and court never mentions this, and really nobody ever mentions this, except for Marcy says this. in an interview. Marcy hates Bill, by the way. Hates his guts. After the divorce, obviously. Yeah, she said he was very abusive, physically and mentally, very violent.

After eight years, he wore me down. So he's not violent in any other relationship that we can find also. So it's an odd thing, but we'd ever know. He might have been controlling over her and done that. I mean, that's what she said. We have no idea. Nobody was there, so we don't know. Maybe they had a volatile relationship.

We don't know. We don't know. Like I said, maybe he was controlling and maybe how dare you, you know, you're some little kid. How dare you say anything? I don't know what the fuck it is. So either way, Nancy, Bill's brother or Bill's sister, the middle sister, she insisted that he was not violent, though. Which, what the hell does she know? She's not married to him.

No offense. But, yeah, she said when we were growing up, he never even pinched me. That is the. Yeah, that's how you can. tell domestic abuse. You ladies, you meet a guy he proposes to you, talk to all the sisters, see if there's been pension going on. If there's pension, you run the other direction.

She said he never hit a woman in his life, is what she said, which, again, she wouldn't know. Now, in early night, this is what the book, this is the book's version of events here, which is pretty good vetted version. Bill brought Marcy to his 10-year Vernon Township High School reunion. 1992. Ooh. And then soon afterwards, he just, he walked out on her.

He left her. Oh. And he told his friend Jim that basically he stayed in the marriage until Marcy could look after herself. Like she was immature, too immature to do that in the beginning. Couldn't just leave her right away. But now she's grown up a lot. So now I can, now I can free her.

She's like, he's like a bird where you fixed up her little wing. And now she can fly again. You're going to release her from the back porch. Yeah. So that's interesting. Her version is he beat me and his version is, eh, just didn't be able to her anymore. Yeah. Yeah.

So she, Marcy said, the book says Marcy was all broken up about this divorce. And for the next two years, tried to get him back all the time. Oh. Yeah. Whereas Marcy was like, I couldn't take it anymore. I just left. So I don't know. Bill moved into a townhouse in Woodbridge at this point with Brian Gerber, a friend.

friend of his and another roommate. He started dating again, but the roommates and everybody said Marcy was always around. She was always popping up, basically. As Fred Jim said, she was still trying to mend that relationship, trying to bridge that gap. So for the next two years, Bill is in school for computers and working nights in restaurants around Edison. He also started going to some to Atlantic City to gamble a bit. Oh, because that's adrenaline people like he is. If you say, I'm not stopping for red lights tonight, you like adrenaline.

You like to almost get hit by cars. You like to be chased by state troopers, things like that. So gambling, gambling provides you with that thing. Larger than life. Yeah, larger than life, man. Now, during the separation of Marcy and Bill, Marcy went over to Bill's apartment and walked in and Bill's sitting there with a chick.

Oh. Marcy's not thrilled about that at all. This is a younger woman named Melanie Slate. And that's who's sitting on his lap. And Marcy said she was young and naive like I once was. That's what she said, which we'll talk about her. She is not naive at all. No?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Naive is not a word I would use to describe Melanie whatsoever. So this is how they met, too. He's playing, he's hanging out at going to the casinos, doing something like that. The Taj Mahal he was going to all the time. He became a rated player for the first time in 1994. Rated. He wins.

That's the thing. He goes to Vegas and wins. I don't know, I guess maybe ranked in some. Yeah, I don't know how you get ranked. That's fascinating. So in the summer of 1994, his roommate, Brian, brings a girl home, Melanie Slate. Yeah. And introduces him to his roommate, Bill.

Uh-huh. And Bill and Melanie hit it off. Oh, boy. So that's how that goes. Now, this is Melanie Lynn Slate. She's born October 18th, 1972, so she's a few years younger than him also. But, you know, at this point, she's in her 20s. She's not.

Marcy was 12 when she met. him and fell in love with him. She was young and naive like I was. No, she was 22. She's a grownup. Very much a grown up. Now, Melanie was born in Ridgewood, New Jersey. Her parents are Bob and Linda. Her father walked out on the family and moved to California when she was just a baby. Four years later, he died of cancer. So Melanie was very upset, and obviously she has no dad, and then the dad's dead. So that really sucks for a young girl or a young boy or anybody. Now, so Linda, the mom, moved into a house, a house in Oradale, New Jersey, with her parents and two sisters.

So that's a lot of people in this house. She found a job working as a secretary in a Manhattan computer company and commuted from New Jersey. Linda then gets involved with a just a fucking rabbit affair with her married boss. Nice. And it's a mess. It's a fucking mess. and like the kids have to hide it. It's just a mess, man.

It's horrible. So the boss's name is Michael Capararo, who would often stay overnight at the home. This guy, he would come stay. Now, about a year into the affair, this guy started bringing his son over. What? He started bringing his son over as a cover

saying I'm bringing the son to play with their daughter. To play with Melanie. When really they would just go fuck. and leave the kids sitting out there alone to play. To play, yeah. Wow. Michael Jr., the son said it was a very big secret. My father always told me that she was just a friend,

but as I got older, I realized what was going on. But I was instructed to keep this a secret. Eish. That is, you don't want to keep those secrets from your mom. That's brutal. So Michael Jr. and Melanie Jr., or Melanie Jr., Melanie. She is, yeah. Melanie was four years younger than Michael,

Jr. would be left to play together for hours while they would be in the room. Like, they're not even having like a quickie. This is all day. Yeah. Yeah. They're in there. Oil's and shit. Candles are lit.

Yeah. Like, Al Green is playing. There's some massaging going on. It's wild. It's wild. The sheets need to be washed afterwards. So. In the room.

Oh, man. Michael Jr. said, I grew up with Melanie. She could always get you to do whatever she wanted. She always got her own way. and could talk people into anything. Manipulative. Manipulative, yeah. Which, you know, I mean, a lot of kids figure that out when they're young.

So Melanie is in Woodbridge in public school, and as a student, she gets really good grades without really doing much work. She's a smart fucking kid, just smart. Smarter than the other classmates, the teacher said. It was kind of just naturally adept at schoolwork and also had an amazing memory. Linda, her mom, said she was every month. A good girl, never got into trouble. Happy, wonderful student. Every mother's dream.

Now, when his parents finally separated, this is Michael Jr.'s parents there, Michael, the boss and the married boss and the wife, they put the family home up for sale. That's when Michael Jr. finally told his mother about Linda, about Melanie's mom. Oh, yeah. And he explained once his mom found out his dad. Dad was blaming it all on her, blaming it all on Linda. You went over there with your dick, did you not? I'd say it's pretty mutual, my friend. She did this.

Yeah, she did. I don't know. I was over there next thing you know, my dick was wet. I don't know how it happened. Don't look at me. Don't look at me. He said, my mother was very upset. That's why I had to open my mouth and tell her.

So the divorce came through. And so then her boss, who she's been having an affair with, Went to live with Linda and her whole family, her sisters, her parents, the kids, everything at this house, which is a nice house and everything. But still, and Michael Jr. too moves in. Everybody's moving in. So Michael Jr. and Melanie become pretty close. He says she was a smart girl. She and her mom were very close. She was a mama's girl. She did not like Michael Sr. as a stepfather. No. Melanie had no use for him. and he was a big-time disciplinarian, and Linda really wasn't. So when Melanie would mouth off, they'd have giant arguments, and it would blow up.

Michael Jr. said she got a little out of control. There were a few heated battles. My father was very, very strict, and they did not get along. Now, so Melanie enters Middletown High School South, and she's, again, great student, top of her class. one of her friends said everything came very easily to her. She was very smart and always an overachiever when it came to school. And every weekend, Michael Sr. who's a service manager for Time Warner,

would take the whole family to Atlantic City every weekend. Takes them all there? Because if there's one thing small children love, it's gambling. They just love it. It's blackjack. at enough. He and Linda would leave the kids in the hotel room by themselves for hours

and hours while they went and played high-stakes blackjack and poker. Took them to the casino and said, here you go, kids, enjoy, don't leave the room. Yeah. The room service menus over there, you know, order what you want. So, Melanie here, in

1985, Michael Sr. takes Linda and the kids on a vacation to Aruba. Oh. Which sounds very nice, with the family of a close friend of theirs. Now, during this, 13-year-old Melanie has her first sexual experience with an older boy. Oh. I don't know how much older he was.

Oh, we do. We find out. He's 19, which 13 and 19 is called molesting. Sure is. That's called molesting. It's certainly grooming and statutory rape. Yeah, 19. I'll give you 16 if you just graduated for.

from high school or something. Maybe. Yeah, some people graduate. The 16 year old's exceptionally mature. No, I mean like if the 19 year old just graduated, they were in the same school together. Yeah, yeah. He was a senior. She was a sophomore.

You can't, if they're in the same school together, you can't keep him apart. It's tough to go, though. You can't put two zoo animals in a cage. It is. But I'm just saying that, that I'll go, eh, I don't like it. But I'm grudgingly accept it. 16, 13 and anything above 14 is no good. 13 and maybe above 13.

13 and 14 is about the only grouping I have there for those two. 15 and 13 is a huge gap. That's absurd. The difference between 15 and 13 is incredible. It's ridiculous. Like the difference between 17 and 19 isn't that much. The difference between 13 and 15 is a two-year fucking chasm that you can't jump across. Of crazy maturity and chemical changes.

Forget about it. So Michael Jr. said she was full. around with him, he said she was 13 at the time and he was 19. We would go out every night to bars in the casino. I think that's where she picked up gambling. Wow. You think spending every weekend in a casino, maybe she picked it up. Melanie takes this after Aruba.

She takes her newfound sexuality or whatever you want to call it or I don't even know if it's sexuality or trauma depending on the girl. You know what I mean? And she takes that back to school with her and becomes, according to her stepbrother Michael, quote, she was very promiscuous. Say loose. Yeah. That's what he said back then, I'm sure. She was very promiscuous.

She had a lot of boyfriends and she also had affairs while she was with them. So she had boyfriends and cheated on them. They were kind of weak and fairly timid and she got what she wanted from them, dinners, meals, any kind of gifts. Yeah. So she has figured out how to do this. Because what her mother do? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, one day Melanie boasted to Michael Jr. that she was, Jesus Christ, having sexual relationships with two of her married teachers. Teachers in high school. Again, not affairs. They're molesting you is what that's called. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not an affair. You're being taken advantage of.

A grown married pervert is molesting you. Just because you get something out of it and you're fine with that doesn't make it. Well, you're fine with that. Well, you feel like an adult, but you're not. And the adult should know that. That's the difference. You know, you're not the adults. You think of yourself, oh, yeah, this is fine.

They're the adult who they should know better. They're the ones that should go, what are you kidding? You're a child. And you're probably, you probably think you're in charge, but you're not. No, no. So her stepfather found out about one of the affairs and threatening and threatened to go to the school principal if the teacher didn't stop seeing his daughter. Are you kidding me? that's it

I'll go to the principal you don't stop this teacher from raping my child no he went to the teacher and said that oh wait he told the teacher I'll go to your boss and tell on you rather than I will cut you into so many fucking pieces they will never find you again which would be correct thing

the police no what police not even thought of I'll get you fired I'll get you fired if you touch my child again I'll have you fired I'll get you fired from your job. Sure, it'll follow right up with that.

I'll complain to the manager if you don't stop fucking my teenage daughter. That's insane. Stop molesting my kid. Michael Jr. said, she was kind of proud of it because I made a joke about it saying, so that's how you're getting good grades. And she just smiled. Oh, Jesus. Which is exactly what you would do if you were a brother and a sister.

Yeah, you must be blowing your history teacher getting fucking A's. That's how siblings are. So I'm actually, they're getting a lot. along like real siblings. That's good. But she does have, she gets great grades at school and always, you know, sets, she does everything she needs to in school.

She does extra credit. She does anything she can. And in addition to doing all this schoolwork, having affairs with multiple teachers, she also works part-time as a checkout girl at the Chapel Hill A&P supermarket, as well as at a TCBY store

in Red Bank. So she's busy. She's busy. Boy, my guy. She doesn't have any spare time. Absolutely. She also had a lot of enemies in school, Melanie does. According to Michael, she had a few. They said that she gossiped a lot and it pissed people off. She's a big gossip.

Her brother said she would use her wit as a weapon against people and then they would hate her for it, basically. He said, she didn't get along with girls that much. No? If she didn't like you, she could be very cold. Even if she did like you, she would still talk about you behind your back. She'd be your best friend one day, then she'd be out with somebody else talking behind your back. What do they call it? A bitch.

A bitch, I think. Backstabby-ass bitch. A technical word, I think, is a bitch that normally women throw upon each other in that situation. She also had a big time temper. And he said if it was the least bit of a perceived slight, she was on somebody. Really? Yeah. Michael Jr. said, if you made her mad, you could see the rage in her.

There were a couple fist fights. I've seen her hit people. Oh. Yeah. She's not a big chick either. No? She'll throw hands. But academically thriving and everything else, too.

She's active in the school in the theater. She does the drama program. She had lead roles in several productions, including Brighton Beach memoirs, the Neil Simon play that they did, which seems ambitious for high school kids. Neil Simon shit's very, Neil Simon shit's very dialogue heavy, like to ask. Yeah. Like Biloxi blues is Neil Simon. Remember with Matthew Broadwood? Yeah.

It's all dialogue. It's very heavy dialogue. It's like Woody Allen kind of. So like that would be interesting. Okay. Her entry in the school's 89 junior yearbook lists her as a member of the National Honor Society, treasurer of the Spanish club, and also in school chorus as well. Her high school friends remember her fondly, though the ones that she acted with.

One said she was a good person, a good student. She was very bright. right. But he also said, or the stepbrother said she was a partier, though. And he would sometimes accompany her to, she like going to metal concerts. Oh. She like going to metal concerts and clubbing in Manhattan. She's fun, huh? While in high school. Yeah. So he said he was older. Was he four years older? So he would go with her to these. They would say to protect her, basically, make sure nobody knocked her out. She said, he said she had lots of boyfriends. And And whenever the stepdad would try to rein her in, she'd become even more rebellious.

Michael Jr. said she'd walk out and slam the door. She'd talk back. She wasn't taking it. Mouthy, yeah. Not having it. In 1990, she's a Jersey girl who's not even taking your shit. In 1990, Melanie graduated in the top 5% of her class, and she enrolled in Rutgers University for a double major in both math and psychology, which are two completely. completely different sides of your brain.

So that is a rare double major, I would think. She's a smart girl, huh? Oh, she's real sharp. She's real smart. She's a surbic. She's, you know, can be mean. She can be nice. She's manipulative.

She'll be perfect, like, to be in the business world. You know what I mean? She's only five foot two and she's petite. Wow. Pretty. She's real pretty, too. Yeah. So she ends up graduating from Rutgers.

I guess statistics turned into her major after a while. and psychology. So she got two. But instead of going into either of those things that she just spent four years in college for, she said, I want to be a nurse. I guess. Okay. So she found a job waitressing in a seafood restaurant in Edison.

She had moved back with her mother and stepfather and been dating a guy named Brian Gerber, who has a roommate named Bill McGuire. So that's how this all happened. after the restaurant closed, the staff would kind of hang out and socialize with waiters and kitchen staff from other restaurants because that's who's up. Sure, yeah.

That's it. That's a, like, if you go to, like, in New York City, it's like a known thing. If you go at midnight, out to the bars, all the, you'll see all the kitchen staff start to pour right. You'll see waiters come.

You'll see chefs coming in their fucking shit. It's industry time. That's when they're going to drink. So that's, you're up. That's the only people that are up. And one night, Gerber introduced his new roommate, William, who was working at Red Lobster at the time, Bill was. And that was that.

And she fell in love with Bill McGuire. Here we go. Now we have Bill and Melanie are together. Sure. All right. By the way, we did this as a live show in a bunch of shows this year for the live shows we do. So this, I hope you're enjoying all the extra info that we have time for now. Fascinating, yeah.

Yeah, live shows, obviously there's tons of info, but we don't have time for every little detail. or can't have a three hour live show. That's just. Union people to pay. That's what I mean. You start shifting in your chair after a while. This is a great story. It's hilarious, but my ass is numb.

I got to go home. Move it along a little bit here. Yeah, yeah. So John Rice, the friend from the Navy, said, I thought it was an excellent fit for the two of them, Bill and Melanie. He said, between the two of them, you'd hear the banter.

They seem like the perfect match. Yeah. Because he's just like her kind of. It's not an achiever in school, but they both, they're both like kind of. a ballsy and take chances and brash and do things. So that Christmas, Melanie gave, she gave a copy of a book to a friend of hers

of the Stephen King novel, Dolores Claiborne, which is so weird that that came up because that just came up on your stupid opinions. That isn't out yet, everybody. But next week when you listen to your stupid opinions, Dolores Claiborne, the book came up, which is weird. I haven't thought of that book or mentioned it ever. Ever, decades.

So Dolores Claiborne is about a woman who gets her abusive husband drunk and murders him. It's essentially a Dixie Chick's song in 700 pages. Long time ago. Yeah. Long time ago. On an inside page, she wrote the inscription. Now, here is a story of a woman with true strength and wisdom. You can learn a lot from her.

I did. Love Melanie. How about that? Jesus Christ. Now, remember how William can't drive? Yeah. Well, he can. just gets in trouble for it all the time.

He's, fuck red lights, that guy? Yeah, he continues with that, oddly. March, he never grows out of that. No. That's a thing that, like, maturity takes that out of a lot of people. Bill's, like, in his 30s going, fuck this. I'm not doing this shit. So Bill was driving on March 1st, 1996 with a suspended license in Scotch Plains, New

Jersey. He's stopped by a cop for speeding. Okay. No license, and he's speeding. Smart. Does he dare him to look deeper? Well, in this one, no, not this time. This time he dares Melanie or asks Melanie switch seats with me.

Oh. Say you were driving. That way I won't go to jail. Yeah. And later asked her to lie under oath in court. So he ends up getting a charge for fabricating false testimony regarding circumstances surrounding a motor vehicle stop and discussing and or prepping such testimony with witness identified as. Melanie L. Slate. He gets in trouble for trying to get her to do this, basically. He apparently accumulated, I don't know how you do this, but his license was suspended 33

times. Good Lord. He was like 33 years old at this point. That is a lot. One for every year of driving. One for every year of life. Two for every year of driving. Exactly. So, yeah, he received three years of probation in November of 1997 and fines of $1,50 for false tampering with a witness. Yeah. So there's that. So that's a third-degree crime. So he has like a light felony and this going on.

He's good at crime. Now, he wants Melanie to move into the apartment with his roommates. Oh. Which is always trouble there. It's fun. He wants to move. He proposed to her. So now they're fiancés and he wants her to move into the apartment.

And he's even negotiating. I'll pay more if I can get the master bedroom. So we can have more room since there's two of us, blah, blah, blah. So that October, Melanie moves in with Bill and the other roommates. and sharing a kitchen, a living room in a basement with his male friend and another roommate, not the ex-boyfriend of hers. Wow. He moved out.

This is a different roommate. So the other roommate, the guy, said Bill and I hit it off because we're both wise asses. We joke around with each other like that. And I could see how some people could think he was a little abrasive, but he really wasn't. He's a ballbreaker. He's a New Jersey guy. That's all. I grew up with a million of these guys.

I know that guy. I can pick that guy out from a million miles away. I know exactly what part of HVAC he's going to go into. I know that guy, you know what I mean? So, anyway, soon after moving into the apartment, Melanie pissed off her roommates by saying, this place is ugly. I want to redecorate.

Your furniture sucks, is what she said, literally. The roommate said she was snobby. Bill seemed a lot more down to earth, but she was a lot more upper crust and put on airs. When she came in, she wanted to change everything. This is ugly. This needs fixing. She wanted to put her stamp on the apartment,

even though she was sharing it with other folks. Yeah, this place sucks. Yeah. I think she's trying to get them to go probably, too. Probably, yeah. Start squeezing them out by living in this live, laugh, love palace. Absolutely. So before they got married,

Melanie gave Bill a photo of herself with the following inscription on the back. Bill, as we prepare to start our lives together, I just want you to know how much I love you and I couldn't have done it without you. Thank you for your undying love and support. Mel. Mel. So here's some pre-wedding bliss here.

January 3rd, or sorry, June 3rd, 1999, three days before they got married because you know she had to have a June wedding. Yeah. But not late June when it's hot. Early June. Early June. When it's warm and it's bright and I could still say it's a June wedding, but it's not hot.

Okay. Apparently there's a loophole in the U.S. bankruptcy laws that has been changed since then. But somehow if you declared a bankruptcy, but then you got married, your bankruptcy would go away because now you were in with another person. There was a certain loophole that Bill found. Okay. So he claimed bankruptcy. Fascinating. So because he found a loophole.

Right before the marriage. Yeah. And a few months later. Later, Melanie also filed for bankruptcy. Now, John Rice said he was embarrassed. He talked to me about it. He was always looking to either make money or get out of paying for something. One of the two.

One of the two. Yeah. Yep. So Bill also discussed with his former roommate that it was a good financial move to do bankruptcy. The roommate said, I don't think it was really about money problems. It was just a way of consolidating some things. He knew he was getting married soon and it was almost a strategy. which rich people and companies, they use bankruptcy as a strategy.

It's everything on the table. Us normal people, when you hear you should claim bankruptcy, that means total failure. Your life is over for eight years. Your life is over. You're embarrassed. You can't tell anybody. You fucked it all up. You're a disaster.

You made a mess of it all. Rich people don't give a fuck about claiming bankruptcy. They don't give a fuck because they know. financially, that's the smart thing to do. They're worried about the end rather than what they look like. But I can't do that. I couldn't do that. I'd feel horrible. So June 1999 is when they finally get married.

By 2000, they're going to have a son. Or they have a son in 2000. So they have a kid pretty quick here. William has a job with the New Jersey Institute of Technology as a computer programmer and an adjunct professor too. Nice. Yeah, he graduated. That sounds good.

He graduated in 2001 with a bachelor's degree in management from there. He graduated, come loud. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That's something to brag about. Something, right? I don't know. It means good.

Yeah, at least top five. It's top five. Because I know there's like a bunch of different titles. I don't know what they are, but one means first, one means second, one means third. So he's a senior programmer analyst at the NJIT's Department of Information Resource Development. And so he works there for a few years here. Melanie's job, she went through nursing school. That's what she was thanking him for helping her get through.

And she gets a job at the reproductive medicine associates of New Jersey in Morristown. Great. They help women get pregnant. Yeah. They do in vitro and fertilizations and that kind of thing here. Expensive shit. That shit's mad expensive. It's so much money.

It's so expensive. It's so expensive. It's so expensive. It compounds for Christ's too. Oh, man, that's brutal. It compounds, for Christ's sake. Oh, yeah, you'll end up spending tens of thousands of dollars to get that kid, and then the kid costs more money.

It's crazy. It's better than the people who spend, I mean, that I understand. If you want a kid, that's the way you get it done. Sure. The people who spend, you know how much it is? People clone their dogs. Do you know that? Yeah.

And it costs like 50 grand to clone a dog. And it's not even the same personality dog. No. It's not even the same physical dog. It's the same vessel, but a completely different dog. Right. So you just got a dog that looks like your old dog. That's so easy to do.

You can go around. Yeah, you go around and get tons of dogs that look like your old dog. They all look the same. They're fucking dogs. They're set up the same. So crazy. So easy. So, yeah, that's a waste of money.

So she ends up being a respected nurse. The patients love her. One patient who served as a surrogate mother for friends of hers said she was one of Melanie McGuire's now. That's her name. One of her patients from October 2003 on. She said, after a failed embryo, transfer. She said that Melanie

was very kind, very loving, and she said it wasn't my fault. Okay. Yeah, no, you're the one true transferred it. It's not like I held it myself and stuck it in me. You guys did it. It's your fault. So parents at the clinic said that she had very cool professionalism, but also

was sassy and salty. Oh. Which fits her personality. One woman said she was talking to me about how they give older women ultrasounds to see if they are potentially fertile. And she said with a lot of people you can tell right away because their ovaries are like little raisins. That means that's good or is that bad?

A little shriveled up right. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it would be great to grow in an environment of the inside of a raisin. I just thought that was great. Fantastic. What a gal. Making fun of patients' internal organs. Isn't that great?

It's a wriggly ass ovaries. Yeah. Most people in the medical profession don't talk that way. No, because it's completely unprofessional. That's so bad. One time she was doing, I guess, an interview about this with somebody about this thing. And she said, this is Melanie. It's an emotional process.

A good deal of the work meant a good deal of the work means exercising delicacy and compassion. On one hand, you have to be supportive. But on the other hand, you need to be frank and honest without upsetting these people. Okay. Yeah. She actually said without upsetting the clients, which I find a little bit disturbing. to call patients clients. It's weird, isn't it?

Yeah. In a medical setting. Yeah, it's just weird. Another patient said that she could be refreshingly blunt. She said, you want someone who will tell it like it is. That's what you want. She said that, you know, she was skeptical, this woman about her chances for success in the early stages of the process. But it was Melanie who said to her, quote, remember the uglier the embryos, the more beautiful the babies.

I've always heard that. That's an old idiom, I think. I think my grandfather used to tell me that all the time. Listen, he'd go, remember, the more, the ugly of the embryos, the more beautiful to babies. That's what my grandfather would say. And then he'd eat pizza. That's how he did it. That's great.

2002, they have another son. Now, when she became pregnant in June of 2001, Bill suspected that she was taking some fertility drugs from work. Oh. He's like, hold on a minute. We're not even trying to have a baby. you've been taking drugs, haven't you? Which, if you left it in her, that's how it happens.

That's how it happens generally. Maybe she did, but also maybe not. But he, this caused a lot of friction. He was mad at her, he said, for not taking his wishes into consideration. Well, put something on your dick then, buddy. That's what it works, yeah. Her friend said he was not that thrilled that she was pregnant again. I'd say everything seemed to be okay until her second child.

I don't think it was the money, but he was fine with the child he had. We have a kid. We're happy with this kid. We've got to have another kid now. But he realized that he's going to be a father for the second time, so he's looking for more ways to increase income. He goes to the NJIT, the school he works at and went to.

He goes to their health clinic in Elizabeth, New Jersey, when he realized the need for a computer program that could cut the time, could cut out the time-consuming nature of the paperwork. Sure, sure. So he asked a senior programmer in his office to help him develop a software program for it. And he said, let's form a company and develop a program. So she said that's where the idea of Javista software came into the picture. So they founded this consulting company in mid-2001.

And they set up a joint bank account with $12,000 in it to make this thing. So Bill's trying to, he's ambitious. A few months later, Bill takes a second job working nights as a. a senior programmer for the Essex County Health Department as well, which he made almost as much money as he did at the school of his job. He's doubled up his money, basically. Yeah. So after signing off at 4 o'clock from work, he would go to South Orange until 11 p.m.

Then he'd go home for a few hours sleep and get up early again so he could get to work by 7.30 a.m. That's brutal. Off work at 11 o'clock, at work again by 7 o'clock. 930 is brutal. So Bill and Melanie never really saw each other at that point And they kind of drift apart Now their babies spend most of the time in daycare Or being taken care of by the grandparents

Because she works all day, he's working all day and all night And they live in this apartment in Woodbridge Still, they still live in this apartment And they're stacking cash They're still, they're stacking cash It's the Woodbridge Center Plaza apartments So now Bill's sister Said that Bill was a caring father

and took the lead of the couples of the child care. Which while he's working two jobs, I don't know how he would do that. But when he wasn't, I guess he was. The sister, Nancy, said he was more of a mother than Melanie was. Very nice. Okay. So Melanie, again, talking to patients, at one point she talks about how she believed one of her sons might have been autistic with a patient. And at one point, she was anxious about a carbon monoxide leak that,

It was the carbon monoxide detector went off at the house. But this patient said talking to her, you would never know something was going on with her, except that she had complained that her husband was an idiot or other choice words. You know, like every woman does, just a bad day at home kind of stuff. My husband's an idiot. Oh, mine too. They're all idiots. Absolutely moral.

My husband is an idiot is the female version of my wife's a pain in the ass. Yeah. Right. Every husband's an idiot and every wife's a pain in the ass. That's the basis of every sitcom that's ever existed. 100%. She's a nag and he's a dork. That's it.

He doesn't know shit. She knows everything and she loves to tell me so. Yes, loves to rub my fucking nose in it like a golden retriever and a pile of shit. So according to the brother or the sister Nancy, he had a goal, Bill did it, of buying a home by the time he was 40. Okay. Now, they were looking for a home. According to Nancy, the sister, Melanie looked up neighborhoods and thought her children would be living among foreigners. When they found a house they liked, it was like, don't want that.

She's like, they will not live there. So finally, they find their dream home. It's half a million dollars. Oh, yeah. And there's a whole thing about it's, like, it costs $515,000, but it's only appraised for $500,000. So Bill said he feels obligated to pay the difference because he's, already signed on and his sister's telling him just to drop the deal and all this type of shit. They end up meeting in the middle at 50, at 500, 7,000 and a half, yeah, basically is how that worked.

That Thanksgiving, Bill Melanie and her stepfather, Michael, attended an open house for a half-million dollar property in the Asbury section of Franklin Township in Warren County. So while Melanie and her stepdad remained downstairs, the owner gave Bill a guided tour of the four bedroom house. It's got vaulted ceilings. It's on two acres. And it's half a million dollars in 2004. That's a good one. Which is a lot of house in 2004. Yeah, that is so much more money in 2004. The median home price in this country was like 160 grand in 2004. So that's a lot of money. So April 28, 2004 here, by that time, he's earning about $65,000 a year. Yeah.

She's making good money, too. So they're going to, it's going to stretch them. Yeah. It's a big mortgage, but they want to make it work. If you're committed, you can make it happen. You can, yeah. I mean, if he's willing to work extra jobs, if he has to and everything, then why not? So they're going to close on this house on April 28th, his closing day.

Bill has taken the next two weeks off from his job at the New Jersey Institute of Technology so he can get set up in the home, which is smart. the worst thing is moving into a place and then having to go right back to work living among boxes. When you're at work, you're thinking about home. You can't do it. It's a mess. When you're home, you're like, I just want out of here.

I just want this all put together. I want to go back to work. This is this place sucks. At least at work, my desk is put together. This blows. So that night, he returns to the Woodbridge apartment. I guess he and Melanie. Bill calls the gas company at 537 p.m.

This is to transfer the account to the new house. Sure. Now, they're not going to stay there yet. They're going to move in over the weekend, but he's doing all this tonight. At 544 and 559, he called two friends of his to tell them excitedly that he closed on the house. Yeah, I got it. How cool is this? I did it.

I did it. So later that evening, though, the seller of the house called Bill, and they'd been going back and forth communicating a lot. And Bill didn't answer. and Bill, if he didn't answer, if he was at work or something, would always get right back to the guy. This time, though, he never got back to him. Bill never returned the call. So this guy was like, what the fuck is going on?

Yeah, yeah. Where's Bill? Basically, after 6.10 p.m. that night, nobody outside the house talked to Bill. Oh, really? That night, no. Which was unusual because he's normally very active on his phones. He's got multiple phones for different jobs, this one for work.

He's got a blackberry that he uses for everything. 2004, you know, so it's weird that he would be radio silent here. Now, the next day, Melanie says he left. He left me? He left all of us? He left last night, took off. And not only that, there was a big fight that caused this. Oh, and a fight.

Melanie says her husband began arguing with her. This is about 2.30 in the morning. Yep. And he slapped her and then stuffed a dryer cloth her mouth. Yeah. So stuff some bounce in her mouth there. Yeah, I'm out of here. Bounce. Muggle this bitch. Bounce out, bitch. Yeah, this is, so slaps her and stuffs to dry her clock in her mouth. That's her claim. And then fled in a rage after she locked herself in the bathroom. Okay. She couldn't take it. She was at 2.30 is a morning. She ran away,

so he left. Which is an odd day to fight. The day you close on a new house. Certainly. Yeah, that should be a happy day. But we don't know. We were not there. So that's her story. Now, he just, he's gone. Don't know where he went. And she doesn't care. She's ready to break up, she says. She's ready to be done with this anyway. So April 30th, 2004, two days later, after the closing,

Williams 2002 Blue Nissan Maxima is outside, is parked outside the Flamingo Hotel in Atlantic City. Okay. Okay. Now, surveillance cameras later will capture an image of someone getting out of the car and walking toward the boardwalk. looks like a woman getting out of the car. Looks like her hair's up and she looks like there's some boobs there. So looks like a woman. And it's a grainy surveillance footage from 2004,

but you can tell the outline of a woman, basically. So now they couldn't tell who it was. And they find out later that Bill never checked into any hotels down there. Okay. But his car's down there two days after he disappeared. Then, that's April 30th, then May 15th. comes along. That is when that suitcase

that drifted out. When boaters find a suitcase. Okay? They call, remember we left off? They had called 911. Now, back to the boat. Blood is leaking out of the suitcase at this point all over the boat here. So the two men placed it at the back of the boat, you know,

where you keep your bloody things. Yeah, well, that's where all the fish gets to drain, yeah. I keep my biohazard back there usually. And they headed toward Island 4. After a half hour of circling, there's still no sign of police. Oh? So he calls 911 again, and the dispatcher says, we're sorry. Go to Island 2.

I fucked up. Cops are on the way. Wrong island. Maybe Island 3. I don't know. We don't know. So he gets to Island 2, circles for a half hour, nothing. Now he's pissed.

Yeah. I just throw the fucking things back in the water now. I'm not dragging this all over this. Yeah. He said it was more than an hour after. we called and found the case. He says, I'm not real happy. The boy was traumatized.

I told him there's no reason to get upset and there's nothing that's going to hurt you. It's something really bad and you don't need to worry about it. But you don't want to see severed legs when you're 12. So he called 911 a third time and said, I'm going back to the Virginia Beach Marina. Meet me there if you want to. There'll be legs on my boat if you want to grab those. I'm going home. He said this was starting to be a mess.

deck of the boat had turned pink. Blood was seeping out and I was worried. You don't want your kids around somebody's blood? No. That's horrible. So the suitcase, cops eventually come, and they bring it, it's a medium-sized Kenneth Cole reaction suitcase to the Virginia police, Beach Police headquarters to be forensically examined.

The medical examiner's office. Here we go. Dr. Wendy Gunther, who's the assistant chief medical examiner, takes the legs out of the black plastic trash bags. Lays them out on a surgical table. She said this was very unusual. She said, I've never before received a pair of legs from the knees down. Legs are usually at the hips.

Yeah. This is where they cut those. She said it was impossible to tell gender from lower legs, but she could tell they were, A, very hairy and had muscular calves. They look like a guy's legs. Generally, dude, yeah. Said you could tell right away that they were. were right and left, which I would fucking hope so.

Yeah, that's good news. Imagine if you open a suitcase and it was two lefts, you'd be like, oh, no, there's a lot more. Yeah, yeah. So she said they looked like they'd been sought off and they also looked fresh. They had no smell like the legs of people who come from the hospital the day before. The right leg was cut through the knee exposing the tibia. It looked like a sawmark cutting through the cartilage and the muscle looked kind of fresh. She also noted there was no blood where the knees had been severed,

although some had started to cut and suddenly stopped, started to come out. There was little else, she said she could just take the blood and hairs and for DNA for later. Otherwise, they're legs. There's no toe prints to match up with anybody. Yeah. So the Virginia Police Department's forensic unit supervisor, who works crime scene investigations,

They started testing for more trace evidence. This person, the supervisor, said, when I first saw the legs, it looked almost surreal. I thought to myself, this is the start of something that's going to be very, very bad. Very bad. Very, very bad. So May 8, 2004, three days later,

that is when Bill's abandoned 2002 Nissan Maxima is towed to a police impound yard from the flamingo because it's been there forever. So it's removed from the Flamingo Hotel by a private towing company, which eventually contacts the police after the vehicle goes unclaimed. So that's how that goes. May 11th, 2004. Yeah.

Now, we'll go back one day to May 10th. A female, a young lady, graduate student, is picking up litter on Fisherman's Island at a bird sanctuary. When she spots on the sandy beach, just all alone by itself, just like a big seashell. Instead, it's a large dark green suitcase. Shit. She didn't pay attention to it. She just kept on doing what she was doing.

Then she came back the next day and it was still there. Really? She's like, oh, that's weird. Yeah. So it's getting warm, too. It's in the high 70s. Yeah. It's June.

It's May. She bent down and unzipped the side. She said she barely got it open when the overwhelming odor punched her in the face. I mean, it was pop, which really says a lot for these Kenneth Cole suitcases because... Yeah, that's pretty impressive. You have to open the zipper to get the smell. Keeps the smell inside it. That's great.

Your dirty laundry will stay in. It's going to stay in. So then she saw a glimpse just a little tiny piece of a human shoulder. Oh, no. And screamed and ran away and called the cops, which is Jesus Christ, man. That's a bad day of bird watching. She saw the shoulder, though. You find anything good today?

Yeah. Yeah, the spotted New Jersey man shoulder I found. So the large 30-inch Kenneth Cole reaction suitcase was lying face down in the sand with both zippers open, revealing the end of a black plastic trash bag. It was in worse condition than the earlier suitcase. It was waterlogged and had a lot of sand in it. It had probably been on the beach for several days. Yeah. Now, after the crime scene people photographed it, they placed the case, they weighed the case.

It weighed between 70 and 80 pounds. Oh, wow, that's a big case. It's a big case into a body bag before putting it in a tin tub. Yeah, that'll make you pay extra at the air. Delta will charge you for that shit. They may not even take that. If you pay for it, they will. There's oversized baggage.

Okay, all right, right. You just got to pay for it. You can give money. They'll take anything. Oh, sure. You can ship a coffin if you want to, but it costs. So they end up observing the crime scene people and detectives. They watched as they unzipped the suitcase and they see the trash bags in there.

And the crime scene person said it smelled like decomposing flesh, rotten fish, and the actual sea or baywater, which is a horrible combination. That is not a Yankee candle that's being made right now. Baywater alone, no good. Decomposeant rotten fish and baywater is not the newest Yankee candle. So they packaged it. I guess everything in the suitcase had been packaged into four separate trash bags. Two large industrial-sized ones and two small kitchen-type ones with yellow drawstrings. Yeah.

So they said they were doing it step by step on zipping, photographing, starting to remove the bags away from all this and photograph it. So they get all the trash bags open and apart, and they said, quote, it revealed the torso of a white male, his head and arm still attached. Oh, boy. It's just a torso. So they were like, whoa. The torso was lying on its back in the suitcase, right arm up over the shoulder,

left arm under the chest across the belly with three fingers curled. The first finger and thumb were in a cocked position as a point of the arm. a gun, that type of thing. Over the kitchen-type bags, one of the kitchen-type bags have been raised over his head while another went from the severed part up. The two

bags met in the middle of his chest. Then two larger trash bags have been placed over them from either end and sealed. The examiner said the head was attached. You didn't have to look hard to see the bullet hole in his forehead. And then there was one in his back.

They stood out. So they said his eyes were closed. Let's hope he was asleep when this happened. Yeah. Now, a heavily bloodstained blanket had been wrapped around the back of the head to the ears, bunching up around the chin without covering the face. When they removed it, the blanket, they immediately recognized it as hospital linen. Oh.

Yeah, noting a tag that read property of the H-C-S-C. Is this how they dispose you in hospitals? This is how you do it. Yeah, you don't want to die in a hospital. No. They just put you in a suitcase. maybe on the beach. Yeah, this is how you, like if a pirate's mad at you, this is how you end up.

I have heard the hospitals are murder factories, and this is a dead giveaway. So she made a Google search discovering that it had come from an Allentown, Pennsylvania-based medical supply company. So the head and torso are in the early stages of decomposition. The skin is discolored with gray and green marbling and pale white, green and red spots. there was also skin slippage and some hair had fallen off. This is not what you want to see. No. The hands had severe wrinkling for being in the water for so long,

but there was little sign of any blood or other biological fluids. This woman said this was one of the most brutal crimes I've ever seen. This is the 17 years of CSI forensics lady said that. She said the fact that somebody can dismember another human being like a piece of meat is just very disturbing. Right. one of the detectives said this is detective Ray Pickle. Ray Pickle. All Ray Pickle said the insides were coming out onto the gurney.

Ah, Jesus. Of the torso. But I don't remember seeing a lot of blood on the body itself. There was decomposition but no blood that was pooling or spilling onto the gurney. So they put the torso in the freezer for autopsy. I guess so it would congeal and get less messy and stop falling apart, I guess, too. So it could be autopsied the next day.

So they put everything else in bags to be tested. So now we have a human head torso, some part of the arms. By the way, the arms are cut off too. There's the upper part of the arms are attached to the torso. So the next morning they do an autopsy on the head and torso because now that's something you can actually look at. The doctor noted, I saw the body of a white man beginning to decompose. He was between 30 and 40, looked healthy, muscular, not overweight. The scalp hair was brown and about a half inch long.

It was beginning to slide off. I saw the entry and exit wounds on the head. Both of the bullets that killed him seemed to have entered and exited the body. Wow. So then now if you can narrow down a crime scene, you might be able to find them, which is good. That is a wild description of a body. Isn't it crazy? This is awful.

This is why this stuff isn't like during a lot of. live show. This isn't real fun during a comedy show. That's terrible. We'll talk about gross stuff. Don't get me wrong, but it's also it's a comedy show. So, you know, this is a long description of this. She then sawed through the top of the skull,

removing it to reveal the brain, autopsy shit. She said the bullet enters on the left side of the forehead and goes through the skull right through the frontal bone and it goes through the perital bone on the opposite side through the brain, leaving

little pieces of lead wipe. But the brain was so badly decomposed that it liquefied and fell apart when they tried to remove it from the skull. Oh, my world. That is disgusting. She said, we had a pan there waiting to catch it, so we were able to weigh it. I took my knife

and made cuts through it, and as I see the bloody decomposed rot where the bullet must have passed through, and it goes in a straight line from where the bullet goes in and out. But if you asked me what fine structure of his brain, it went through, I don't know because it's starting to rot and go bad. She turned her attention to the lower chest and abdomen where there's another fatal gunshot wound.

This bullet had entered the abdomen just below the edge of the ribs, three and three quarter inches left of the midline. It had probably traveled through the lung before exiting out the back. Bullet not recovered. She said it was impossible to determine if he had been shot three or four times. The bullet could have been a short return partially exiting the body. then falling back, which is something highly unusual but not impossible. She said it was very frustrating. The bullet went right through his lung and leaves in the back after shattering his fifth

rib. She described the exit wound as being a big halo of blood, proving that he was alive when he was shot, basically. It wasn't afterwards. So the doctor then retrieved two bullets still embedded in the body. Oh, really? Now we got two. The first removed from the chest cavity was in pristine condition.

addition. But getting the second bullet was difficult. They had to lift the torso onto a gurney, roll it onto the stomach, guts spilling out everywhere. She said everything started shifting. The second bullet was found loose on the gurney close to the waist area. A lot of the insides fell out. The bullet was under that. Damn it. So you had to move aside a pancreas to get that bullet. The bullet was covered in green fibers like the ones used in furniture upholstery. They said. They said there was another piece of fiber wrapped around the head. She said, I collected the DNA of the torso to see if all the body parts matched up. Let's see if these legs and these torso go together. Imagine if they did. See if they fit.

Oh, boy. You're like, oh, shit. We got a much bigger. We're missing pieces? Oh, no. May 16th, 2004. Five days after that suitcase is found. Carl and Linda Stevens are floating, hanging out off the Bridge Tunnel's second island.

Okay, they find a suitcase floating. Oh, boy. It's just floating. Kenneth Cole's suitcase. Around this area, everybody who comes here in boats and does shit now knows if you see a suitcase, don't open.

Call the police and do not open. The gossip is spread through the boating community. So, yeah, this is what they call the Virginia Beach Marine Patrol, and they tied the suitcase to the back of their patrol boat like a fucking, like a bass to a fucking, trolling motor boat, like a rowboat. And he is, he is scared it back. Yeah, they dragged it back.

Yeah, that's, that's fun anyway. It gets to ski. Yeah. So, yeah, the boater finds this suitcase. They bring it in to the lab. Yeah. They remove the blanket, immediately recognizing a small 26 inch Kenneth Cole suitcase. That is the carry-on in that set.

Right. Two biggies. It's a full set of bags. The two big ones and a carry-on. It matched the other two. It was lying flat on its back with two Marine Patrol ropes still attached to it. The smallest of the three of the suitcases, anyway, it was full of water and extremely heavy. They said this was probably the most potent of all the suitcases.

Again, it was a strong odor of decomposing flesh, rotten fish, and that nasty bay water. After photographing it, she put it in a white body bag, placed it in the same metal tub as the first. one. Oh, man. So they autopsy, and they said that the trash bags were covered in slimy, oily film, and they said, you knew this was probably going to be the least pleasant of them all. You've got a body part that's opened at both ends. It's been out there the longest. So the rate of decomposition, decay and slippage was going to be much greater than the other two. They said they found it extremely difficult to find the trash bags openings, so they didn't want to destroy the evidence. So they

removed the trash bags from the suitcase with the body part still inside. So they had more space. And that's when they found the opening. They pulled it apart. And again, they found a smaller plastic kitchen bag with yellow drawstrings inside. They said, we parted that.

And that's when we discovered the midsection of a white male. Lower torso to knees. It had been severed at the waist and above the left and right knee. The midsection was wearing a blood-stained pair of fruit of the looms men's brief was in far worse condition than the others.

She said there was more decomposition. The skin had a greenish tint to it. There was so much more skin slippage, especially around the wounds where it had been severed. This is horrifying. And my favorite part, not of this, but my favorite part of doing this show is that knowing that while people are preparing Christmas dinner, they're going to be listening to this.

They're going to be stuffing turkey as well as this on. The mid-torso had three cuts, one through the waist and the others above where the knees were, obviously. They said at each cut site, there was exposed tissue and bone. Wow. So that's how that goes. Wow. So they perform an autopsy on that, and they said this was below the belly button to above the knees. It was badly decomposed.

The connective tissue was exposed. The bladder was still intact. The testicles were normal. Well, thank God for that. Thank you. At least his testicles are fine. Why do they? I don't think it matters, considering the condition of the rest of the body. Unbelievable.

She then removed the bones from the flesh so they could be examined by a toolmark expert to determine what instrument had been used to cut this poor guy apart. So, all in all, they found two bullets in the torso and two different exit and entrance. wound. So four shots all together. Blankets from Hospital Supply Company, that's going to help. Three matching suitcases. And they said, Virginia Beach Police said, we don't, we have no nothing. We have no motive,

no suspect. We don't even know who it is. We don't even know who it is. We got nothing. Wow. Nothing. So, um, they don't know anything. What are you going to do? So by the way, back in Woodbridge, Melanie had left the apartment.

all the furnishings have been cleaned out and the telephone was disconnected by this time. So he's gone for two weeks after they get in a fight. She's done with it. She's leaving. So, yeah, they're going all that. Another thing they found in the suitcases was a 5.5 pound weeder brand weight from a weight set, a round weight that a bar goes through. So they found that in there too.

They had a ballistics test conducted on the bullets taken from the body and determined that they are round-nosed bullets fired from a 38-caliber torus handgun. Okay. Okay. Now, the body, they said what it looked like from the tool marking experts is that the body was first cut with a scalpel, then with both a reciprocating saw. Oh, boy. And an electric carving knife. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Think about that while you get your turkey ready. Wow, they said that the severed, everything was placed in plastic and placed in the luggage in the water. And that's how it happened. So May 21st, 2004, police release a composite sketch of the man's face. Misses his face that's bloated. They've got to take the bullet hole out and everything like that. Now, this is down in Virginia where John and Susan Rice live. Remember them?

They were the people that he knew from the Navy and all that. It's his, I mean, Bill was John's best man at his second wife at his wedding here. So anyway, so the picture was distorted, but Susan said immediately looking at the picture, it looked like Bill. That looks like Bill McGuire. And she doesn't even know Bill McGuire's missing. Oh, oh. She just said that looks like Bill. She just saw a photo, a crime scene photo, and said that's your body.

That's him. It's not even a photo. It's a sketch. Right. A sketch. Hand drawn. Hand drawn. They followed it all closely.

And they knew at this point that they haven't talked to Bill. So they didn't know it was going on. But they thought Bill was just cooling off from his wife there. Sure. John remarked how strange it would be if it turned out to be Bill in these suitcases. And then laughed and it was like, yeah, right. But Sue, the wife is looking at the sketch and she said, it's fucking Bill. That sure looks like him.

I'm pretty sure. It looks like Bill. She said it was him. I was shaky and I got sick. Oh. She called Bill's older sister Cindy to see if he was still missing because they didn't even know. Oh. Because he could be over there having dinner right now.

It's definitely not Bill then. She didn't mention the sketch. She just said, you guys found Bill? What's going on with Bill? And Cindy said, no, he's still missing. So then she went online and compared a recent photograph of Bill with the police sketch posted on the local news television website. She said those eyelashes, the nose, the mouth, the crooked teeth,

when you've looked at someone's face for so long, when you've looked them in the eyes, the similarities are hard to mistake. I put the two together. The sketch was very bloated, but that's what happens to anybody in water. So I'm thinking if it were shrunken, if it were shrunken in,

she's trying to picture it less bloated. She said suddenly it was like 9-11 all over again. It was just too close. What? I get that you're 30, in 2004, 35 minutes from the city, you get that. But 9-11 is a very, that's a crazy comparison. Yeah. Wow.

So she called the Virginia Beach homicide detectives and said, hey, I think I found this guy. He's missing. I think you got him over there. She tried to call her husband John, too. She couldn't reach him, though. That's when she talked to the sister and all that kind of stuff. So she called the police. She didn't get a response.

So she called again. So investigators got on the phone and interviewed them over the phone. They were asked to come down and look at pictures of the body. Yeah. So they get down there. They bring them into a small room, seat them around a table, and they said they showed him color pictures. And Susha said he showed us the color ones, and he had to prepare us because there was

the slippage. The body was bloated, so you had to use your imagination. So with her hands, she masked out the hair line and the bloating to get an idea of just the features, just to get eyes, nose, mouth, and that little thing. She said it was so weird. You have to look at the eyes, the nose, the mouth. And by using my hands to block parts of the face, that was Bill. He had long eyelashes.

That was still there. He had this little red mark. That was still there. The nose, the mouth, the crooked teeth, that was Bill. Wow. Jesus Christ. The close-up picture was they didn't show him the close-up of the bullet wounds. You didn't have to see that, luckily.

So now they think it might be Bill. So they do some tests. And guess what? He has fingerprints on. file from getting arrests. Well, it was for, they remember when they fingerprinted them and let him go for the checks thing?

That's what they have there. Felonies. So, yep, they found out that he was, that that's the guy, minor felony. So John, his friend said, it was like being in a daze, we were all sickened, I barely slept. So they called his sister

assuming that Cindy knew her brother was murdered and she said at the time she thought he committed suicide. She just heard he was dead but didn't know he was murdered. Which is interesting. So the three suitcases are matching and multiple people confirm those are Bill's suitcases. Those are his shits. Those are his. That same day, Melanie signs papers looking for a divorce, signs divorce papers. Oh, really? Yep, she filed. She said, she was,

this was filed three days before she was told the bill was dead. She claimed he had a history of heavy gambling and expressed concern that he was depleting their savings. She claimed he withdrew $5,000 from their checking account in March without her knowledge to gamble in Atlantic City. And then they had closed on the house and all that. She kind of felt like a piece of shit for that? I don't know. She said the home also had become a manic obsession for Bill and his behavior turned increasingly

bizarre around the time of the closing. She said there were spells of paranoia. One night he woke up in a bout of scratching. Oh. Just scratching himself. She said he would go through periods of not sleeping for 48 hours, literally spending every minute that he was not at work looking at real estate listings. That's called buying a house.

Yeah, it's called an addiction. That's fun. It's an addiction that you have to do if you're buying a house. That's the only way to buy a house. Is this the right one? Yeah. We bought a couple, and that's what we did all day, all night. We had Zillow on the TV and we're just going through.

Oh, God. Is that still available? Who knows? You want to fucking off yourself. So, yeah, so she said that also there's, he claimed bankruptcy, he had gambling debts, he had a drinking problem, he's a terrible guy. She said that Bill told her that if she would only move to Virginia with him, that all their problems would disappear. But she didn't want to. She said after she hung up the phone, Bill called back and screamed multiple obscenities into the answering machine, threatened to kill Melanie when he got home.

Oh. Now, according to this divorce complaint, she said she argued with him and he argued with her and, quote, threatened to disappear, work under a false name and social security number and never provide her with any social or financial support. I'll disappear, God damn it. I will disappear. I will explode into multiple pieces and throw myself in the ocean. Don't think I won't. See me again. Unless you got a fishing boat, you won't. So she said following the closing of the house, her husband assaulted her, and that was that. And the next day, they were arguing, he slapped her, stuffed a dryer sheet in her mouth, and he took off, and she hasn't seen, she hasn't seen him since, and she's happy and wants a divorce. Friends don't believe her stories. No?

Well, one person that does is Marcy, as we'll talk about. Marcy, the ex-wife, she believes everywhere. He beats her. Now, Susan said, when we heard that, we thought it was so out of character. John said we knew there were arguments, but they weren't ever physical. Nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors. You don't fucking know what people do. Susan said that Bill hated wife abusers.

He thought they were low lives. Well, it's a hot take. Who says, I get it. Sometimes you've got to give it a back of your hand. Who says that to their friends? You know what I mean? It's very rare. Normally, they go, oh, yeah, those are bad guys.

Who else you hate? Pedophiles? Any other? Is that your next success? Yeah. And they also said that the Rice has said they were never aware of any gambling problems indicated in the divorce papers. Instead, they said Bill was a smart gambler or had great luck. Oh.

They talked about a trip to Atlantic City in October when Bill bought the suitcases that he was found in. He won $40,000 on that trip. He did real well. He ended up paying for all their hotels and food and everything like that. So they, the Rice has said they last spoke to Bill in April and said there was nothing to suggest he was going to disappear. And also not in Virginia. John Rice said if he was going to Virginia, he would have called us. Yeah, because that's where we live and we're best friends.

He'd come see me. He's my son's godfather. Rice said, I wish I could have said, hold on a second. That's a really good guy, my best friend, my son's godfather. If I needed anything, he would be there for me. Now they look into Bill's gambling to see if maybe he could all. owe somebody money. This looks like, you know, somebody cuts somebody up like this.

Certainly, yeah. Kind of a mob hit thing. But they found out that when he gambled in Atlantic City the last time, he won two or three times what he started out with. And that's what John Rice said, too. According to the staff at the Taj Mahal, he was a very disciplined gambler. Really good at it. He wasn't a wild guy.

He was doing this, not for fun, to make money. He had strategy. He had strategy. They said that investigators said that they checked. into his gambling history and he's a net winner in Atlantic City. Wow. So that's not it. They said he didn't have any money problems, even at work.

They said he often failed to seek reimbursement for travel and other legit expenses because he didn't need the money. Yeah, he's doing well. So Melanie will not comment. She's questioned by police but has declined to comment publicly. That's it. She just told the cops he left the house on the morning of the 29th, never heard from him again. That's all I know.

Okay. Is she sad, though? Is she? Well, one of her clients there at the, one of her patients, I should say, said she wasn't crying, but I would say she was appropriately saddened. Yeah. How do you judge? Who cries when their spouse dies? That's weird. I assumed he had died of a terminal illness just because of his age. It was only a couple weeks later when somebody mentioned to me, oh, her husband was murdered. But we didn't talk about his actual death. She said, my husband passed away. away. I didn't feel it was appropriate to push for details. Dude. If you're, if you're significant another dies in this fashion, you don't just go, they passed away anyway, going on to the. It's appropriate at his age. Yeah, they often dismember themselves and hop into the ocean. So she filed for divorce. She talks to the cops, like we said, and they said these statements that that she made then are inconsistent with what the investigation has uncovered. So they start getting suspicious of

of Melanie here. September 29th, 2004, the police in Virginia finally decide that he didn't die in Virginia. Oh. And they transfer this to New Jersey. Okay. They finally do that. So now New Jersey finally takes over jurisdiction and can finally look in New Jersey

because they didn't even have the case before that, so they couldn't go around. If you have something that's not even your case and you have, you're a homicide detect. Can't investigate anything. You have actual cases you have to work. Go tell your boss that I'm going to work this case that's not even ours. He's like, get the fuck out of here.

Working in Virginia this week. Yeah, solve the cases we have, please. Don't make more. Right. So that's what happens. Now, the investigation reveals this, and this is fun. The Jersey police reveal a lot. They find that on April 26, 2004, two days before he disappears, Melanie McGuire made a little purchase.

She went to Pennsylvania, to eastern Pennsylvania, and bought a 38-california. Torus handgun. Oh, that's not good. That is not good. What were those bullets again? Yeah, 38's, right? Fired from what? Yeah, around those.

That's a Torres. Yeah. Yeah. She used a fraudulent Pennsylvania driver's license and fake address to do this. Ooh. Now, her driver's license, the one she had that she used bore her real name but listed her address as being in Pennsylvania. They used this for the insurance, because Bill's always looking for an angle.

Right. Pennsylvania insurance rates are cheaper than Jersey, so they use that. So that's their residence so they get cheaper insurance. So police say here that she purchased a Taurus 38 from John's Gun and Tackle Room. Yeah, that's a reputable source. Oh, yeah. It looks like, from the outside, it looks like one of those tiny Wisconsin bars. Oh, yeah.

Everybody's been going to for a hundred years. Yeah. Yeah, that has like wood paneling around it. And inside of it, there's a sign that says cash only on the fucking cash register, which is, are you joking? Yeah. These are guns. Can we get a record, a clear record? She also made a purchase of $9.95 at the gun shop.

The receipt didn't indicate what it was for because it's a handwritten receipt, but only two items in the store cost that much, and one of them was round-nosed 38 slugs. So that's not good. And the shop owner then picked Melanie McGuire out of a photo lineup as the person who purchased a 38 and those bullets. That's who has this gun. John of the Gun and Tackle Room.

identified her. Now, what does Melanie have to say about that? Tell me. They said, listen, we, I mean, this looks bad, right? It's two days before. He got shot with 38. You have a 38. You didn't report him missing.

This all looks bad. She said, I can explain. Okay. I got this. She said, yes, I did buy a 38 caliber handgun. Absolutely true. She can't deny it. She's been picked out by John at this point.

She said, but I just bought it to have it. and I bought it and immediately went and put it in a storage facility. That's good. She said, now, when they said, well, where is it now? She said, well, I went back to the storage facility when I was moving and putting stuff in, and it was gone. Somebody stole it, too. That'd be great. That'd be great.

I don't know. Somebody stole it, though. I don't have it. Then they start looking into her digital trail. Oh, no. That's when shit gets real interesting here. I mean, the gun thing, it's a crazy coincidence, but it could be. a coincidence.

Then they look up and they find on Easter Sunday, April 11th, I guess Bill and Melanie and the kids here had attended a barbecue in Brooklyn at one of the friend's houses. Bill was upbeat and chatty, walking around, talking everybody, telling everybody we're closing on this house in two weeks. This is great. The friend said they seemed fine. He was really excited about that house.

She also said he was very mellow at that brunch. They had a couple of things that week and then they were moving. So back in Woodbridge, they believe Melanie went that night, they know because it's on the home computer. She Googled, quote, undetectable poisons, which I've never Googled that. I don't know about that. Even for the show, I've never Googled that, which is crazy. Undetectable poisons. Then a few minutes later, she ran a search for Tomax slash suicide, T-O-M-A-X.

Tomax. I don't know, a drug probably, some undetectable poison probably. I don't assume. I'm not Googling on that shit. Nope. Slash suicide, she Googled. On Friday, April 16th,

she went on her home computer to investigate a little more here. On 7.35 p.m. while Bill is still at work, she typed in the words where to purchase guns without a permit on the MSN search site. That's her browser back then.

That's what she's using for her homepage. Four years later, she looked up two official national, or four minutes later, sorry. She looked up two official National Rifle Association sites, giving information about various types of weapons and state gun laws. Yeah. At 7.45 p.m. 10 minutes later, she tried another MSN search for, quote, instant poisons. You ever want to someone to be poisoned, but now?

New instant poison. Instant poison. Yeah. Just add water. Yeah. Instant poisons. minutes later looked up gun laws in PA. Uh-huh.

At 503 on Sunday afternoon that day, Melanie went on her home computer again and conducted 18 searches. 18 searches. She purchased, had to purchase guns in New Jersey and Pennsylvania, then instant poisons, then toxic insulin levels. Oh. Fatal insulin doses because she is a nurse and knows that is something they have to look for. Otherwise, it just looks like a heart attack.

Right. Unless they find the needle mark. Yep. That's a heart attack right there. It's not good. Yeah. So they said that fatal digoxin, digoxin doses, D-I-G-O-X-I-N, digoxin doses, and then instant undetectable poisons. Not just instant poisons or undetectable poisons right now and never found.

At 541, she typed the words, how to commit suicide. And then four minutes later at 545, she types. Just the greatest search, this is small town murder in a nutshell, the greatest search in the history of small town murder. Quote, how to commit murder. You just, God damn it. Don't do it. Walk outside with your hands already cuffed. You put your own cuffs.

I got it, guys, I know. I tie Google how to commit murder. How does the search not come back? It's not for you. Yeah. You can't do that. Too easily. Don't. Too easily.

Yeah. If I ever, if I ever searched how to commit murder. and then Sarah died by any means, I would just come out with my hands behind my back. I know you're going to find that. I know you. I don't care if I did it or not. I'm in trouble.

Yeah. So Saturday, April 24th, she started contacting gun stores in Pennsylvania, first telephoning Jones gun shop in Allentown, then called C&D guns in Bethlehem. At 820 Wednesday morning, the day of the closing, the day he's dead by the middle of the night that night,

Melanie dropped her two boys, off at the Kindercastle School on Middlesex Avenue, then drove 1.4 miles to Walgreens Pharmacy at 905 New Durham Road, dropping off a prescription for chloral hydrate, which is an extremely strong sedative. Is it an instant poison? It's a poison. It'll knock you out anyway. At 832, and then collecting it 18 minutes later and paying $9.99 in cash. Got to love that copay. Yeah, yeah.

So a few minutes after the closing of the house, Melanie called her boss in a panic. Her boss's name is Dr. Brad Miller. We're going to talk a lot about him, but she called in a panic. And Brad said she informed me that they had closed on the house. She sounded upset. She told me she didn't know she was going into the closing. She didn't know they were going to close that day. Today, yeah.

She said Melanie explained that she thought they were just going to discuss the house with their lawyer. but when they walked in, they were surprised that the seller's attorney was present. Then she'd started signing the papers with Bill and it was too late. Uh-oh. So you signed papers and then didn't know your house. What are you talking about? Yeah. You have some agency.

I signed something and now I own a house. Yeah, what the fuck? I mean, I was just signing things with a lawyer. I don't understand what the deal is. I was just in a room with two attorneys present. I thought that'd be fine. So Dr. Miller said, I became upset. started yelling at her.

I said, you should go back in there and rip up the papers. Why do you want to buy a half-million dollar house if you ultimately want to get divorced from Bill? It doesn't make any goddamn sense. What's wrong with you? So, anyway, she's doing all her searches, doing all of this is happening at the same time. Then the cops find out, speaking of Dr. Bradley T. Miller, she's been having an affair

with Dr. Bradley T. Miller for years. Oh, boy. They first became friendly when she was a nurse. Then when she was literally like a week away from fucking maternity leave with her second son, they had their first sexual encounter in the office. Jesus. When she's nine months pregnant. Oh, Lord. That's when he said, I can't help.

I can't take it anymore. I got to have it. She just been over for fuck's sake. I got to have it. I just have to. Jesus Christ. So that's what happened. and then it went on from there.

Dr. Miller said, we were always flirtatious. She had gotten me a birthday cake and bought me a small gift for Christmas. So they said that he started acting more kind of like a guy and less like a boss at that point. Melanie said he was just so kind and so very sweet.

I'd come back to my desk after a long meeting with a patient and there'd be lunch sitting on my desk waiting for me. He was just very, very tender. That's why women like doctors. He fucking seduced her. Yeah, Bill and Matt, I don't know if you have to seduce Mel any much when it comes to this. Fairly quick, fairly easy. Well, I think she's up for, I think she's up for it.

So it's. Yeah, maybe a couple of compliments and she realizes you're into it. At the same time, let's put everything else aside. You're her boss. You shouldn't be fucking her. Right. Flirting with her or trying to fuck her, whether she's into it or not. You're in charge.

You're literally the boss. So you're abusing your power here. So, you know, whatever. I mean, fire her and say, hey, I got to let you go if we're going to go out, if we're going to do that. But otherwise, you can't just do that. So they said that they had begun, Melanie and Bill had begun bickering again, accusing each other of not putting their effort into the marriage. Dr. Miller said, I know that they argued.

I heard her yelling on the phone. So she came back to work after the kid came and just continues this. goes on through Will missing, through everything. It even got real weird before Bill went missing. Dr. Miller said, we went together as a family. Melanie's entire family had been over to my house for cookouts. Oh, Jesus. Bill even attended a poker party at the house playing for quarters and dollars with Dr. Miller there.

Cindy, Bill's sister said they went over to the Miller's house a number of times and they also came to Bill's house. You have to be so cool to do that. Yeah, yeah. I hope Bill took all of his fucking money. At least. He won, you know, $8 off him. Dr. Miller said about Bill. He acted affectionate toward Melanie.

He would have his arm around her or hold her hand. Melanie would also discuss her and Bill's sex life, according to Dr. Miller, and what they did in bed. Holy. He said there were three occasions that she told me after their second child were born that they had sex together. Oh, boy. Now, so the Bill, Dr. Brad and Melanie are meeting at motels. The Loop Inn is where they're meeting. And also hanging out with the families together at the same time.

Melanie said, I'd take the kids grocery shopping on the weekend. He would try to meet me there. We went, he went pumpkin picking with us. He was every bit the family man, but somebody else's family. Yeah, not yours. You're breaking up two households with this, you two idiots. So although Bill had no idea about the affair, Dr. Miller's wife had some idea about the affair. Yeah, Dr. Miller said she had questions or suspicions, but I always reassured her that nothing was going on.

I always lied to her a lot. I kept it from her. They would sneak off to hotels in the middle of the day. He would call Melanie on the phone 10 to 20 times a day and they'd exchange as many as 50 emails a day. Wow. in March of the next year. So this is 2005. Investigators approach Dr. Miller there and they want to talk to him.

And he admitted, yeah, I've been having a three-year affair with Melanie. He's a doctor, not a criminal. So he's like, doctors aren't good at holding up to questioning. They're not gangsters. They've always done everything right. That's how they became doctors. And everything they do, they think about how to keep their job. So.

Yeah, how to keep their license. Yeah. So he said it began when she was nine months pregnant. They were planning on divorcing their spouses, buying a house together, and having children of their own, he said. Oh, Jesus Christ. Miller even said that he had an affair with Melanie from the summer of 2002 until he was approached by police. How long did it go on? He checked his watch.

Now? I'm still wiping her off of me. Till now, or she's wiping me off of her, one of the two. Out of her. Well, he might have pulled out on her. You don't know. Probably not. They're married.

They might want to keep it out. They're trying to have kids. They don't know. After they get divorced. So Miller could not be reached, they said. So Miller told investigators he had helped move Melanie's belongings out of her apartment also. Dr. Miller said in a surprised way almost, suddenly my whole life turned upside down. I can't believe this.

He said it got fired from the clinic. He said, I'm losing my job, losing my wife, losing my wife, losing my kids and now I'm involved in a murder investigation. Can't believe it. Yeah. Melanie is toxic as what that is. And you're an idiot. For a doctor, you're a fucking moron.

Yeah. Jesus Christ. Now Melanie sells the house. Oh? The dream house. Yeah. Sells it. And the police never get a look at that house, by the way. Never going to look inside it. They never going to look inside the apartment either until well after she's moved, cleaned and other people have lived there for

Really? No, because they didn't have any idea. She moved out. They didn't know. It all went on like that. Now, here is what they think happened. Okay. Okay. This is the prosecutors. Now that they put all this together, they have a timeline and an idea of what they think happened. I'll read this from the book. At 6.17 a.m., prosecutors believe Melanie began creating an elaborate alibi. First, she went on Bill's Blackberry and sent an email to Bill's boss, Ross Ninja. His last name is Ninja with a jet. swear to God, that is the coolest name in the world. Ross Ninja, nice to meet you. Mr. Ninja, yes? That's awesome. Ross, the Ninja.

Dude, when he was 12, he must have been the coolest guy ever. When you're 12, you want your last name to be Ninja. That's cool. Then copied his immediate superior, Tom Terry. The subject was Thursday, April 29th, I will be out sick today. Okay. But she had Tom Terry's email address wrong, and there was an immediate message from the system administrator saying it was undeliverable.

Then, as they think her husband lay unconscious on the living room couch, she prepared to take the two little boys to school. As she walked past him on the way out the door, Melanie told them to, he's sleeping. Hey, be quiet. Yeah. She then drove Jack and Jason to the Kinder Castle. I don't know if that's a real names or not. Kinderk, it doesn't matter, to the Kinderk Castle, dropped them off at 8.30, told the daycare

director, Donna Todd, that she was applying for a temporary restraining order against Bill and that he had been violent toward her the night before. Oh, that's why he's not here. Yeah. Just before 9 a.m., Melanie called an attorney, Melissa Brisman, saying that she would not be into work that day. Then she called Dr. Brad Miller. Oh, called the attorney for the medical place. Okay. Dr. Miller said she sounded upset. She told me that Bill had left and went into more detail. according to Melanie, Bill woke up about 4 a.m. and had gotten into a fight over the house. At one point, I just wake up and I'm like, God damn it, let's argue.

No, you go and you get something to eat, you go back to bed. At one point, he told her that if she wasn't happy with him or the house, he was going to leave and she could keep it. Dr. Miller continued, the dispute became physical. He pushed her up against the wall. He put a dryer sheet into her mouth. and I believe she said he was even choking her. They said the youngest son woke up crying, so she'd taken him into the bathroom and locked the door.

For the next half an hour, they stayed in the bathroom listening to, quote, activity throughout the apartment before hearing the front door slam shut. Then she came out. This is what Melanie's telling him. Melanie then asked Dr. Miller to prescribe her some Xanax to calm her down. And he said, as soon as I hung up the phone, I called in the prescription to a pharmacy near her for some Xanics.

And he wrote the handwritten prescription. It said that patient complains of extreme anxiety, palpitations, nausea, difficulty concentrating. She reports that the couple closed on a new house yesterday. And later that night, the couple got into an argument, which became physical. So that's part of it, too. Now, here's what they think the actual murder was, because that's that day, now the next day. While Bill lay unconscious in the living room, Melanie loaded the Torres handgun that She had bought two days earlier with the bullets, the round nose wad cutters.

She aimed the powerful 38 special at her husband's forehead and placed a green throw pillow over the barrel to dampen the noise. Remember green fibers all in the bullet? Right through the ball. Oh, wow. Then pulled the trigger. The flat top cylindered bullet usually used for target practice punched a perfect round hole through Bill McGuire's frontal bone, tearing through his brain before exiting out the back of his head. She then pointed the gun at his lower chest, firing into his abdomen just below his ribcage.

The second bullet ripped through his lung before exiting out his back. Then she fired two more bullets into his chest at point-blank range. When the trained nurse was satisfied that her husband was dead, she began the grisly task of disposing of his remains. And with the children in daycare, she and her accomplice would have had hours to dismember the body at their leisure, leaving absolutely no traces of what she had done. Yeah. They think there's no way she could do this by herself. There's no way she could lift the bags. There's no,

there's no way she could drive the car down there because that was her getting out of the car and surveillance. How'd she get home? Great question. So someone followed her. There's this pre-Uber. Someone followed her. Somebody fucking was with her. Someone was helping her.

Also, it's really fucking hard to dismember this shit. She's pretty little. It's hard to pick up a body and move a body. That's the other thing. That one bag was 80 pounds. Yeah. Right. So they said she first, first she prepared the shower stall in the larger of the two bathrooms on the second floor, hanging an old paint-stained drop cloths around it to catch the blood.

Then she blocked up the drain to stop any incriminating biological matter from getting trapped in there. Sure, sure. They'll pull your drains out quick. The shower stall, which would have provided the perfect environment for her gruesome work, as it meant the cutting would be done near ground level, with three walls and a shower door to contain blood spatter. Melanie utilized her medical training to create a controlled environment like a hospital mortuary before making the first cut so it would not end up looking like something out of a horror movie. When she was ready, they undressed Bill, who weighed nearly 200 pounds. They left him only in his underpants, which were heavily soiled as he'd been unconscious for hours. Then they dragged him into the shower stall, but he was too big to fit lying down, so they placed him in a sitting position with his knees bent so the shower door would close.

Melanie then produced a short-bladed reciprocating power saw plugging it into a power socket in the bathroom Oh boy After placing a hospital blanket over it to dampen the sound She turned it on She first began cutting straight down through his lower left knee Front to back But although the fine tooth saw easily cut through the femur bone

It slid the bloody flesh Slid off the bloody flesh without cutting it So she then cut through his flesh with a sharp bevel-edged knife. Bill's severed left leg was then bled out, and before they cut off the right one below the knee in the same gruesome manner. With the lower limbs severed, there was more room in the shower stall to operate now. Now, the prosecutors deduced that Melanie or her alleged accomplice

pushed Bill's head down to the floor and started sawing through his mid-backbone before hacking through his organs and flesh with the knife. Wow. Jesus. The thighs and lower body were positioned in such a way to protect the shower fixture from being scratched by the saw. After bleeding out the rest of the body, they began parceling up Bill McGuire's body parts in plastic trash bags.

First, they wrapped a blue HCSC medical blanket over his face before placing a kitchen garbage bag with yellow drawstrings over his head and pulling it down over his shoulders and upper torso. Then they fitted a second one around the severed bottom part of his navel, pulling it up until the bags met and tightening the drawstrings.

Then they wrapped the head and upper torso in three larger industrial-sized heavy-duty trash bags from a supply that the Maguars had used for moving before taping them shut with blue painters tape. Then they packaged up the legs in more black trash bags before parceling the middle torso, severing at both ends and taping it shut. The New Jersey Assistant Attorney General, Assistant Attorney General Patty Prezio, Precioio, sorry, said she was meticulous. Once the body was cut and bled out in bags, she could have simply surrounded the pieces with bags of ice. Melanie then began to clean the bathroom, so no evidence of Bill's dismemberment would be found.

She scrubbed and scrubbed the shower area and bathroom walls until there was no trace of blood or any biological manner. She forgot to wipe the soles of her shoes, though, and later when she placed Bill's Blackberry an NJIT personal computer in the trunk of his Nissan Maxima, she inadvertently transferred small pieces of his flesh, what they call human sawdust. Oh, dear Lord. Pieces of the, on her shoe?

Tiny sawdust. Oh, Lord. Think about if you cut wood with a circular saw, what happens? Same thing. And she got that on her shoe. Yep, torn from the body by the saw from the treads of her shoes onto the car rug. After completing the acts, prosecutors believe took place in her apartment, she drove to the family court to get a temporary restraining order against her husband, but the time was too,

the line was too long, so she left, spending the afternoon calling divorce attorneys instead. She called Dr. Miller several times on their private cell phones that day, although they didn't see each other. She told him that she wanted to go back to the townhouse and put away some things she needed and look for an apartment. She wanted to get to the court to file a restraining order. She wanted to get to daycare, get to daycare to make sure build and have access to the kids. at 5.30 p.m., she picked the two boys up from daycare, driving them to her parents' house where they would spend the next few days. Now, let's go through the evidence. The blankets.

They found those hospital blankets, hospital center services cooperative. That's the company that supplies blankets to reproductive medicine associates of New Jersey. So that's not good. No. The blankets from her worker there. They said that, wow, they said it's a lot of shit here. They said that there's more evidence. They found the trash bags and determined they were from the same batch that contained Bill's body parts.

Trash bags she had in her possession. A lead analyst spent weeks comparing the plastic garbage bags here from the ones from there and the ones that she had. And they said they were from the same manufacturer made in the same place and even on the same production line. They said this is in the affidavit. The individual characteristics and tool markings of the bags show the bag. bags containing the body and those that were used to pack William McGuire's belongings were made almost sequentially, very likely out of the same box. Okay. Additionally, they found razor stubble hair from both Bill and Melanie on the tape used to close the bags.

Yeah, where do you keep that? Yeah, where do you keep your stubble? I keep in the bathroom. Stays in my house. Yep. The prosecution is saying that's going to be a lot of evidence. Also, they found traces of nail pockets. Also, they found traces of nail polish, they believe, is the same used by Melanie on the suitcases as well.

So there's that. Also, they said, well, what about this car? Yeah. That's you getting out of the car. How do you explain that? She said very easily. Oh? Super easy.

She said, I went out. That night he took off. I was mad at him. So I was like, I'm going to go find him and fuck with him. So I went out into the night and just looked for his car in Atlantic City. Yeah. And I literally she said first place I look there it was. Hey, look.

So she said I had keys. I took his car and moved it to the flamingo just to fuck with him. And his phone was inside the car and I took his phones and threw them in the trunk, quote, to annoy him. As you would. Who wouldn't do that and park it at the flamingo? So they're like, that doesn't work. Then they figured out also she had access to Dr. Miller's prescription pads. part of her job was calling in medications to pharmacies.

So with his full permission, she would routinely copy his signature on prescriptions for drugs. Oh. But she started writing herself prescriptions for Xanax and other tranquilizers. Yeah. Which is not wonderful. So after, you know, all this happened, they found inside of his maxima, they found, Bill's maxima, they also found a vial of pink liquid that is, is a chloral hydrate, which is what she got from the pharmacy. She was looking for, yeah.

Which is a powerful sedative. So they believe that she gave it to him. He fell asleep, then she shot him, which would explain the eyes closed. I hope he was asleep. Right. Also. So they find that. They also find two syringes.

And that's an interesting thing. Oh, by the way, prescription for the chloral hydrate came from Dr. Miller's prescription pad, as if I had to tell you that. But Dr. Miller, he is not going down with this shit. No, no. They said, quote, Dr. Miller looked at the prescription pad and he said, that's not my signature. I didn't write that. And even said, it does appear to be Melanie McGuire's handwriting, though, threw her right under the bus.

No problem. I would never. No problem. Then there's the human sawdust. Then there's the cell phone calls and all that kind of shit there that they were finding that trail. So then they tap her phones. Yeah. And one of her friends is they have a recording of him going,

did you do it? Did you do it? And her saying no, no, no, and denying it. Then they found on May 3rd, Melanie drove overnight through Delaware, which most people with day jobs and two small kids aren't driving overnight through other states. They think that's when she was dumping the suitcases from the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel. She said no. She went to Delaware to shop for furniture because they didn't have sales tax. That's what I did, too.

I went there at three in the morning to shop for furniture. That's what all the best deals are. You get them from crackheads on the side of the road. Then the state's attorney general starts getting letters. Oh. Anonymous letters asserting that Melanie's being framed. Yeah. That's one package.

In another package, the author of the letters sent some of Bill's personal items, including his wedding ban. Oh. And said, she couldn't have done it because I did it. Some zoning action. And they're out. Yeah. That didn't come from the jail?

She's not in jail. She's not arrested. Oh, okay. Oh. She's absolutely not arrested. Oh, she's just under investigation. She's under a lot of gathering evidence, yeah. They also said they had to weed through a very, very large amount of somewhat incredible and conflicted stories from Melanie McGuire to her friends and family.

Okay. What she told the cops and what she told each different friend and family member are all different. All different? There's like 30 stories of what happened. Why are she doing that? It is crazy. Yeah, get one story. Stick with it.

March 7th, 2005. New Jersey authorities finally get a court order obtaining to secretly record all these phone conversations. March 2005, she closes on a $300,000 house in brick. One of her friends, a surrogate that she worked with, or she helped, said she was doing awesome. She was upbeat. June 6, 2005, she drops her son off at the daycare center. and as she's coming out, literally fucking cops pop out of the bush of that.

Oh shit. Yeah. Take her ass down. And they arrest her. The state police superintendent said the investigation over the last nine months has basically woven a very strange tale of lies, deceit, infidelity, and murder. The investigators had to weave

through a very large amount of somewhat incredible and conflicted stories from Melanie. So it's a lot. They say that after the slaying, She drove the car to the hotel and left it there. That way it looks like he's gone. The one detective, this is Ray Pickle. All Ray Pickle, he's back.

He said she was always suspect number one. We had too much on her. It was obvious that the wife had something to do with this. Then he says, she thought they'd be in Davy Jones's locker forever. All right, Pickle. Okay, Michael Bolton, calm down. Jesus Christ. What are you talking?

So she's arrested. Yeah. Also, they charge her with writing those letters to the state attorney general to throw them off the trail, which is crazy. Now, his oldest sister, Bill's sister, Cindy, said she was at the breakfast table when she found out. She said, oh, thank you. I've been waiting a year to hear her be arrested. William's other sister said the family was concerned about getting custody of the children right away. She said, on one hand, I'm very happy, but at the same time, it's like finding. out Billy died all over again. Yeah, it's kind of tough. So they said there may be more arrests. They said, we believe we've arrested the principal murderer. We think there are others who

aided and abetted the murder, and we are hotly pursuing them as well. It's not easy to cut up a body, put it in garbage bags, put those bags and suitcases, transport those suitcases over 350 miles to the Virginia Beach area. Right. Her bail is set at $750,000. She posts it. Oh, my God. She's released. She's released. Wow, that's wild. Now, they said they are considering the death penalty as well here. John Rice, here, his friend, said at first I was on her side. I didn't think she was the kind of person who could do something like that.

We'd been on a couple's honeymoon. I mean, you can't honeymoon with someone. There were trips back and forth. We were hoping all along she didn't do it. I just wish I knew why. This sounds like the murder by me recently. You always want to know why. Yeah, yeah.

This is crazy. the cops said that they're still searching for the murder weapon, obviously. They don't have that, but they have everything else. Ex-wife Marcy. Marcy said, quote, I know it sounds awful, but he probably got what he deserved. Dismemberment. Wow. That sounds, yeah.

Marcy sounds just lovely. Now, if Bill beat her for years, then I understand what she's talking about. Right. Yeah, that's terrible. We don't know. So the murder charge here is the patients are like, what the fuck? All of her patients, this nice lady who helped me get pregnant, killed somebody and dismembered him. One woman said, this woman, every day of her professional life, helped people having families.

A woman who every day brought life into the world would not take a life. That's not our Melanie. That's not our Melanie. No, doctors never kill. Nobody like that kills. One patient said, I was dealing with Melanie the exact. exact same time that this was happening. By the way, there was an online thing of the story and a bunch of comments under it.

That's one person said I was dealing with her the exact same time all this was happening. Eeks. Scary. Eeks. Eeks. One said, I was just shocked. Yeah. She said, I didn't believe it.

That's like something out of a true crime book. It is. There's a book. I'll tell you for the title later. She said, I don't see how you can take a person who's so nurturing and caring and kind and be able to turn around and be able to do something like that against a human when your whole career is based on compassion. 100%.

I've never heard of a cop breaking the law. It's never happened. Come on. Think about this. She was definitely presented to me as the guru, the one who knew everything. I never felt that she wouldn't have all the time in the world if I needed it. I really did think literally this is a woman in the right job operating at the peak of her powers. So the evidence, they're going to go to court, and I'm going to lay out.

rather go through the trial meticulously. Let's go through it here. This is what they have. Quote, the reports of the medical examiners, grand jury testimony, witness interviews, voluntary statements of the defendant to the police, statements defendant had made to friends and others, records

from a gun shop in Pennsylvania, business records such as telephone and pharmacy records, surveillance tapes from business locations, expert evaluations of forensic evidence gathered from the suitcases and from Bill's car, DNA identification and trace evidence, expert examination of the personal computer owned by bill and defendant, handwriting and linguistics analysis, consensual taping of telephone

conversations, and court-authorized wiretapping of the telephones of the defendant and her parents. My God. A little bit evidence. Yeah. A little bit. Also, they had evidence by anonymous communications saying that she also sent the shit to the attorney general. Melanie's lawyer, she'll get another lawyer in a minute here, he said, naturally in

any murder investigation, the initial suspects include those closest to the victim. whether a spouse, a brother or a sister, we will have a very specific response to the state's allegations that will prove she did not commit this murder. Oh, done. So the indictments come in. Four charges of first degree murder.

A charge of second degree possession of a weapon for unlawful purposes. Second degree desecration of human remains. Third degree perjury. Oh. Her bail is raised to $2 million. She posts... How the fuck is she doing this?

It's got to be her parents. It's got to be your parents helping her with this, I would assume. Or maybe clients, I don't even know. And also they indict her charging her with eight additional counts related to the anonymous communications during the investigation. So she's pretty shit out of luck here. They raise her bail another $10,000. She obviously posts that. She's out on $2.1 million in bail at this point.

November 18th. Oh, by the way, Dr. Bradley Miller, give an immunity to testify. for heaven's sake. That's wild because who would help her with this? I don't know. I mean, let's be honest here and realistic. So November 18th, she gets a new lawyer, Joseph Takapina. Yeah.

Who the best way I could put this is if, okay, if the word scumbag had a pulse, it would be this man. In my opinion, I don't want to get sued. But he looks like the slimy, Like when people go, I hate lawyers, they mean this guy is who they hate. Not all lawyers, they hate this guy. Right.

He represents terrible. He's just a scumbag, this guy. But a successful lawyer and lawyer, I mean, everybody needs a defense attorney. Certainly, yeah. Got to have it. So I don't look at defense attorneys as terrible people because they defended. Everyone has to have a defense. That's the law.

That's our country. This guy just seems to really go out of his way to represent the worst fucking people, in my opinion, allegedly. So he said, I wouldn't have come on to this case unless I was 100% convinced of her innocence. 100% convinced. She said, our defense in this case is this. You're ready? Yeah. She didn't do it.

No. That's it. That's the defense. She didn't do it. All right. He said that the police failed to consider Dr. Miller as a suspect and automatically concentrated on Melanie and gave him immunity prematurely, essentially. Once you give immunity, you can't take immunity unless they violate the conditions of the agreement. So for the trial, the prosecution called 64 witnesses.

The defense called 16. All this is going on. 21 witnesses who testified were qualified as experts. Hundreds of exhibits were brought in. They had the scrubbed. They had a shirt with shit on it. They had the blankets. They had human sawdust.

They had the guy up there with the garbage bags and a fucking jeweler's loop looking at those. It was a lot. The prosecution claims Melanie is completely responsible for the murder and argued that all the evidence points at Melanie, including going to family court two days after the disappearance. She said the real reason for being in family court, as the evidence will show, the real reason is not to get a restraining order.

The real reason is to create a defense. They said she drugged him with a powerful sedative, shot him in the head and chest, and dismembered him. Stuffed him in his suitcases, dumped him in the bay. Yeah. The defense says, No. No.

No, she didn't. Everything that lady said was bullshit. No, she did it. Like my cousin Vinny, yeah. So they called the drugging allegations sheer speculation, countering that no drugs were found in his system during the autopsy. The defense team also says that police were wrongingly focused on her, at the exclusion of others, including not only Dr. Miller,

But what about mobsters because of his massive gambling debts? The problem is he doesn't have massive gambling debts. And that's what they found. He's a winner. Yeah, they brought in. It's funny because they brought in a pit boss from one of these casinos who said, this guy wins all the time. He opened up the books and said he was up 30 grand on us last year.

He's kicking our ass. He's fine. Yeah, he's doing great. John Rice here said that he was excited about purchasing. purchasing the home and all that kind of thing. He said that Melanie told him that the two had an argument and became physical. And Rice said that Melanie told him William had left the house, withdrew a large sum of money and said if he came, and she said if he came back, she wouldn't be accepting. So Rice said he told her he tried to help out any way he could. And so that's

how this all started. She was getting him too. And then the wife found the sketch and he goes into all of that. So he also identified that he had Weeder weights. Oh, he did. He had those weights that were found. He goes, I recognize the name Weeder. And they bring in the plastic bag expert, saying

they were made on the same factory, the same line within close proximity to each other, maybe even several hours, being the bag that she had in her garage and a bag that was he was wrapped in. Now, but they said there are, under cross-examination, and there are chances of the bags coming from two different manufacturers,

zero chance it came from two different manufacturers, but they said that the chemical compounds showed slight differences in the two bags that could indicate chemical compounds are different, or it just might be environmental factors. But he's saying they're the same bag, they definitely came from the same manufacturer. They bring the suitcase in and take it out, though he was in here, they stuffed him in there.

They bring in Leon Sorayo, who's a veteran casino, supervisor at the Taj Mahal who said that Bill gambled large sums of money and won big at Atlantic City. He said that Bill, the year before his murder, had converted $97,000 into chips and walked away with a profit of over 30 grand. He did very well. He's a smart gambler.

So we kicked him out, told him never to fucking come back here again. Get the fuck out of here. You're fucking winners. Have ten drinks and fucking throw your mortgage away. That's what we're looking for you. Yeah, that's what we want. So, also, a former nurse who testifies that she visited the townhouse weeks after the murder, and Melanie would not let her go into the basement of the townhouse.

Oh? She also said the townhouse, quote, smelled like a morgue. Oh. That's not good. Then old Dr. Brad takes a stand. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. And he comes on.

I didn't do anything. We had an affair. Takapina asked him, did you have plans to live together? And Dr. Miller said, no, sir, not at that point. Later on, they said, and did you know that she did not want a divorce

because she was concerned about the kids growing up without a father? And he said, no, I wasn't aware of that. He admitted to Dr. Miller that he waited more than a year before telling investigators he was even having the affair. I didn't want to look like I had anything to do with it.

I wanted to stay away from this shit. But he also acknowledged lying to a state grand jury when he told the panel that the affair had ended in March 2005, you know, when the cops contacted him. In reality, it continued until the day she was arrested. What the fuck? She killed this guy. And we think you helped and he went, I got to fuck her more. Yeah. This is getting hot.

This is so hot. Holy shit. So they said, so you were not truthful to the grand jury. And he said, yes, sir, that was a lie. Also a toxicologist here saying, yes. They didn't find chloral hydrate in his system because they didn't test for chloral hydrate in his system. They tested, they found a small amount of alcohol in his blood and urine. That's what they were testing for.

They weren't testing for everything because they figured the cause of death was goddamn bullet holes and being cut up, not poison. So they didn't test for everything. And then it was too late by the time they came up with the chloral hydrate. So also the medical examiner, the sawdust guy, verdict comes in. three days of deliberation. Really? Three days. That is a lot.

What are they hung up on? I don't know, but they come back and find her guilty on all four charges of the first indictment, which are all murder and weapons and all that kind of thing. But she is acquitted of the second indictment of sending the letters to the attorney general, because they have no proof that was her. It's obviously her, but there's no proof. Seems like it. So it seems like that's what they were arguing over was that charge.

They probably had the murder done in 15 minutes. And they were like, okay, now to this other thing. Well, you don't know if she sent that. Yeah, but the guy that murdered him probably sent that. Yeah, well, we don't, we already. We don't know. During sentencing, here we go. The judge says this.

And this is not, this first line is not what you want to hear when you're about to be sentenced by somebody who has the power to put you away forever. quote, history is replete with evildoers. Yeah. That's a bad start. Oh, shit. You're about to compare me to Hitler. There's a lot of bad people. You're about to compare me to Pol Pot.

This is bad. Replete with evil doers who have done some good deeds and they also have had their supporters. She callously murdered her husband and even joked about his death and intercepted phone calls. He called the crime especially heinous, cruel and depraved. He said the depravity of this murder simply shocks the conscience of the court. You, ma'am, may fuck off life plus 15 years for the other charges. Life is with parole, though. But due to the provisions of the No Early Release Act, that means that she is ineligible for parole for 63 years and nine months.

Ooh, we. On the murder charge. How old is she fucking 40? 40-ish at this point. and then, yeah, 63 and three-quarter year she has to serve, which is bad. This would make her 101 years old when she's eligible to get out. Wow. Be 30-8 and get convicted of that.

That's crazy. See you. They got Takapin outside the courtroom. And he said, she was disappointed. You don't really, was she? He said, we all took it real hard. You can just see this guy like, you know I'm full of shit while he's saying. Like, we all took it real hard, wink, wink.

Pretty upset. Yeah. When you believe in someone's innocence, you take it real hard. You too. Real hard. She appeals on jury taint and other things. There is people that think she is innocent. There are people that think she's innocent.

They exist. There's these two people that do a podcast. I'm not going to give the name of it because this is, it's fucking asinine. So stupid. Their whole premise is asinine. They basically interview Melanie and have a whole thing of Melanie's innocent. Oh. They take her word for it.

and they take a couple of very specific tiny things. They said, this is Melanie. There were five lands and grooves that my weapon was said to have made based on the company's website. The bullets that came out of my husband had six lands and grooves. I don't care until we find your gun. Yeah, get the gun. What'd you do? Throw it in a fucking river.

Not only that, your hair is in the tape. What are you talking about? How's your bikini line hair in the tape? There's no murder case, no matter how perfect, that doesn't have a couple of bent tines in it. It's like, they always say it's a puzzle. It's like ordering a puzzle where all the pieces are made of glass. And then you get it.

There's a few broken pieces in there that you can't put in there. But you still see it's fucking Winnie the Pooh. You know what I mean? What are we talking about here? Oh, look, there's Big Look. This is pretty sure you're it. Hey, look, it's Rubeck there. So, yeah, that's what she said.

She said that the search is also, she said, I didn't do those searches. Oh, really? Who did? Yeah. The boys? She said, I am a nurse or I was a nurse and I don't need to look up things like that. If I wanted to look up something like that, I have a physician's desk reference. I have a book that I can look in that doesn't leave an internet history.

But it was also 2004. You might not have known shit left in internet history, number one. Number two, you might have been able to look up poisons in there. But I don't think in the physician's desk book, there is a, in the end of the index, it's undetectable poisons. I don't think under age there is how to commit murder. And then how do you explain how to

commit murder? That's the point. You can search that too stupid. There's also a pet. There was pet hair found, animal hair found on the body, but they said it's a fucking blanket. It could have been on the blanket. Throw a blanket on the floor. It'll pick up everything. So

someone might have had that on their shoe. Who knows? So this podcast idiot said they looked high and know to connect Melanie to some pet. And once they found out there was no way to connect them to the pet hairs, it became not of evidentiary value anymore. Their whole podcast episode is summed up well in a Reddit post by a user named Pete the raw dog.

So Pete the raw dog. He said, all right, I just finished this series. And the points the two podcasters made at the end were so weak. I don't see why this case was rehashed for them. the gun's website contained an error that said five lands and grooves instead of six. The webmasters wouldn't have noticed a simple error on their site until something brought it to their attention. So it's really not that sketchy and they fixed it after the case. Oh.

It was a typo, not a major thing. The garbage bags aren't really what nailed her coffin so it isn't significant to mean that they didn't verify every test to make sure they came from the exact same role. No, that is not the thing. And the animal hairs also not being tested because Melanie didn't have pets or the fact that they never found it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't fucking matter. Right. That's the thing. It doesn't matter at all.

September 20th of 2020, they did a 2020 story on her as well. And her excuse, this is how she found the car. She said, I'm driving down. I take the first pass on this on this highway. I see a dark sedan. And lo and behold, there it is. There he is. There's the car.

And she said she stumbled upon the car. And then she said that in the past, when they're angry at each other, it's a way of messing with each other is moving their cars. We've done it a lot. We always stumble upon each other's car and we move it a couple blocks away. She said, it sounds ridiculous sitting here saying it. And I acknowledge that. But it's the truth. Yeah, right.

The prosecutor said this also requires two drivers. So certainly someone helped her. Someone's getting away with this shit. Anyway, they also did a dateline on her. All this type of shit. She said, the killer is out there and it's not me. After all these years, I still feel hurt. I still feel bothered.

Like, how could someone think that I did that? Great question. And the book is to have and to kill Nurse Melanie McGuire, an illicit affair, and the gruesome murder of her husband. If I told you that title, that's the whole show. Why would you read it? Save yourself three hours. Yeah. By John Glatt.

It was also a 22-lifetime movie as well. Oh. She will be considered for parole in May 27. She's at the Edna Mahan Correctional Facility in Clinton Township. And that, everybody, is Woodbridge Township, New Jersey. Got a bus through the end very quickly here. Hope you enjoyed that. And hope you enjoyed it when we did it live too.

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Get tickets for both those shows because that is, it's almost gone. And that's a club. It's our smallest place we play. It's going to sell out fast. So get in there and do that. Shut up and give me murder.com. Listen to the other two shows, crime and sports and your stupid opinions because we do them and they're fucking hilarious.

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In addition to that, you get all the shows we make ad free as well. And you get a shout out at the end of the show. By the way, at Smalltown Murder on Instagram, at Smalltown Pod on Facebook. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever, ever, ever leave humans sawdust by our remains. Hit me with them right fucking now. The executive producer, Ashley Williams, Cindy Marante, Liz Vasquez,

Peyton Meadows. Gary Gary Howard is in King Hill, Idaho. How about that? Gary, that's far. Tripped for you. Gary, be careful, bud. I saw he was driving in the snow the same night I was driving on the snow. I thought that was funny. Probably back. Look at that.

Terrible shit. Yeah. Tiffany Gonzalez, Mange, Sanja. Sange. I remember him? Hey, Mange. I don't know. I love mine. Eight years later. I still don't know how to pronounce his name.

Yeah, he's one of our first patron ever. Yeah, yeah. He really is. Talena Johnson, Jensen. Tulana Jensen. I know Tolena. Dorothy Katz, Janice Hill, and Robin Baldah. Thank you all so much for what you're doing.

Thank you. Other producers this week are Ryan Bender. Happy Hour in Jeffersonville, Ohio. Oh, boy. Yikes, the poor bastard. Nicole would know last name. Dolores Barfield. Jessica Mascarini.

Stephen King novel, Dolores Barfield. Is that a person? No, it's Claiborne. Oh, okay. Zach Fisher. Don't make literary references to Jimmy. No, don't do that. I'll go, what are they?

Of any of's kind, even pop culture. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, I've got Andrea Borer. M.K., Valerie Kinsella, Joe Bob, Bo Diddley, Flavorade McGee, whatever that means.

Oh, wow. Jeffrey Jones, Liam Poza, Marty Johnson, Sarah Green Tree, Tiffany Hayes, Heather Lidley, little, Scott Whitla, Val Doggy Dog, Val Doggy Dog, get it? Yeah. Because it's Snoop. Do you do the doggy dog?

All right. Jay Slam, David Colander. Colander. Angie Griggs Bridgeman. Richard Woolley, Taryn Barker, Mary Bertram, Ava Laterman. Mel would no last name. Grace would no last name. Kimberly Valdeza.

Joe Portman. Sean Lauer. Kristen Day. Beatriz Rojas. Lindsay Doe Hanyuk. All right. Jenny Beach. What is this?

Mirinalika? Miranilika Singh Dave, I think. Maybe not. Jack's Lou Beck. That would be amazing. That'd be the most incredible. He's psyched for you. He's so proud.

He's so proud of you. Amanda Herbert. Amanda Briss. Amanda Brie, perhaps. Keith Magert. Frank would no last name. Ana. Ah, nah, Bootenhoff, whatever that is.

Cape MTC. Arena would know last name. And this is where it's going to get weird. And I'll tell you why. Bridger White, Adam Wolf, Emily Mace, Tiffany Albrecht, Albright, perhaps. Tim Crone, Philip Arena. There's never been Arena in this ever, and I've got several.

So I imagine they are all related. I hope. Ben would know last name. Family Arena. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tai B. Era Colbuk, Colbuch, Ash Maynard, Jillian Arena. There's another arena.

Katie would know last name. Ben would know last name. Ty Wood. Anne-Marie Schultz. Jesse Rose, Brooks Friedland, Shelby Patrick, Lauren Husky, KJ, Johnny O'Mara, Johnny Omera,

Shannon Anderson, Baca Cruz. Basketball player? Perhaps. Ashley Marshall. I don't know. Morgan would know last name. Regina Falange. What? Like the fingers, right?

Those are phalanges? Yeah. is with the pH, though, so perhaps not. Donna Dorn-Dornbos, April Young, Christopher Leopardi, Rachel Bramer, Anna would know the last name, Beth Sparrow-Linderberg, Linderborg, Marin would know the last name, Bob Van Westenberg, Jay would know last name, Tony Dodson, Ben Fala, Justine would know last name, Josh Oaks, Justine Marie, Zero Stars, if I could. Jared Simmons, Krista Zienbo, Caitlin Newhart, Erica Stevens, Liv would know last name.

Jen would know last name. Anna Caballero, I believe, is that cowboy? What is Caballero? Boot. It's Spanish for something Western. Torrean. Great skater back in the day, Steve. Was Caballero?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there was Richie. The dragon on the board. Max is the lead singer Solfly. But that's Cavalero. Cavalera. Never mind. I don't know.

I don't know. Sol Fly's lead singer at all. Sepulterra. Gun to my head. Chris Co. It's Cassandra Griffin, Monster Cock McGillicottie. I said that. Roger would know last name.

That's a humble motherfucker with a big ass dick. Huge one. Stephanie Dalton, Glenn Cating, Joanne would know last name. Judd would know last name. Jimmy Anuzewski. Alexandra Macca, Macaghan, Macogun. Jill Alder, Teneal, Teneal Witten.

Marissa would know last name. Marlisa would no last name. Jule would know last name. Noel Royer and all of her patrons. You guys are the best. Thank you. Thank you so much, everybody. You wonderful people.

We appreciate what you've done for us in our lives and this run and all year. Thank you so much. Just thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for coming to live shows. Thank you for everything you do for us. Can't wait to see everybody next year. You want to follow us on social media. You can go to the website and find that there.

Just thank you so much. Enjoy your families this holiday season. Merry Christmas, everybody. Thank you so much. And until next week, everyone. everybody. It's been our pleasure. Bye.