Small Town Murder - The Black Hole Murders - Kibler, Arkansas

Episode Date: June 25, 2026

This week, in Kibler, Arkansas, when a young man seemingly disappears into thin air, his wife heads to the police station, and gets a detective to help her look for him. They also disappear. This sends detectives scrambling into these vortex of missing people, only to discover 3 bodies, but not the original man that they were looking for. Eventually, 4 people are all found horribly murdered, by an obviously cold blooded killer. But will this killer find a way to escape being executed??   Along the way, we find out that it's getting easier to tell what kind of music a band plays, by just their name, that a tractor tire is a terrible place to hide 3 human bodies, and that some people may just be pure evil!!   New episodes, every Wednesday & Friday nights!! Check us out on VIDEO Wednesday and Friday evenings on Netflix! www.netflix.com/smalltownmurder Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions!   Follow us on... instagram.com/smalltownmurder facebook.com/smalltownpod   Also, check out James & Jimmie's other shows, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts!!

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Ready to get started? Visit night and day, decor.com or call 647-360-6151. That's night and day decor. This week in Kibbler, Arkansas, three missing people send police into a frantic search. But when one of the detectives also disappears, it turns into the hunt for what they think may be a deranged serial killer while desperately trying to find all four victims alive. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay!

Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. co-host. I'm Jimmy Wiseman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely bonkers. If you heard the opening, you can, there's a lot going on in this episode, as you might imagine. Episode of Smalltown Murder, it's going to be a wild one. Buckle Up. Before we get to that, though, absolutely, head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Now you go, well, it's there. Merchandise. Sure, there's merchandise. We got all that stuff. Tickets to live shows are the

things you really want to get here. Next up, Milwaukee, September the 18th, at the the PAPS. There are not a lot of tickets left for that one. So if you'd like to go to that show, I suggest do it right now, get them in there. And then after that, the next day, September 19th in Minneapolis is at the state theater. Get your tickets for that. Do it right now. There's more tickets than there should be available for that one. So it's very odd, Bill.

Milwaukee is going to beat you guys. Don't do that. What do you want? Minnesota always sells out. So it's going to be. They do. Let's hope they come through here. Then we have Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Terry Town, and Boston in October and November.

So do that and get your tickets right now. shut up and give me murder.com is where you do that. Definitely listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, where we have a very cool series about the Yahweh Ben-Jawi cult going on right now because one of the main enforcers happened to play football for like a month and a half

in the NFL. So, you know, it counts. So we do that. And then your stupid opinions is just insane. It's so fun. So check those shows out. Get yourself Patreon. That's the important part.

Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material anybody $5 a month or above you get everything we put out including as soon as you subscribe you get about almost 400 back bonus episodes you've never heard before

a huge feed to binge on and then you get new ones every other week too one crime in sports one small town murder and you get it all everybody and this week it's a banner week actually because it is prisoner dating game time again everybody much requested and we do it about twice a year

the prisoner dating game is back where what we do here, it's the all-violent felon, as always. I line up four ladies and four young gentlemen for Jimmy to choose from here, and he's going to pick one based on just what they say about themselves. And then afterwards, we get to find out what they did and how horrible of a choice Jimmy has made. And the whole game is basically try to avoid the pedophile. It's like whack-a-mole. That's what he's trying to do. It's very fun. Patreon.com slash crime in sports.

is where you get all that, and you get all the shows we put out, crime in sports, your stupid opinion, small town murder, all ad free. Add free. All ad free. Just take it. We want you to have it. And on top of that, you also get a shout out at the end of the show, too. It's literally all we could give without opening a vein.

It's all we've got. It's all we got. Disclaimer time, it's a comedy show, everybody. We're comedians. So we're going to make jokes. And the show's called Small Town Murder, so there's people are going to die. That's the way it works here. And then you go, well, how the hell of those things go together?

Real easily, actually. It's amazing if you do certain things. And the main thing we do is we never make fun of the victim. No. Or the victim's families. Why? Because we're assholes. But we're not scumbags.

See how that works? It's real simple. And if you stick with that, it's pretty easy. Plus, there's plenty to make fun of. There's some murderer to make fun of. Who's more easy to make fun of? Or make fun of some small town police force that didn't do their jobs and let a murderer go free. Make fun of small towns.

because why not? We're all from somewhere that deserves to be made fun up. So there you go. That said, you think that true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, though. Maybe it's not for you. I don't know. But it might be. Let's put it that way.

I'd give it a shot. But either way, don't really want to hear you complain later. So enjoy. Buckle up, strap in and sit back also and clear the lungs here. And put your arms to the sky. And let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.

Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah. Got to do it. We're going to Arkansas. That always raises. Any crowd you say that to, obviously, a huge cheer will come up. Yay, finally.

Very underwhelming destination. Yeah. If you have kids, gather them up, sit them down and go, we're going on a family vacation. They'll go, yay, where are we? Disney? Where are we going here? And then go, we're going to Arkansas. And then watch their faces change.

and they'll go, number one, half of them won't know it's a state, so they won't even know what we're talking about. They've forgotten. They've forgotten. And the other ones who do know, they'll be even more frightened. So this is Kibler, Arkansas, K-I-B-L-E-R, Kibler. That's Kibler. It's Kibler. It says it, I looked it up, trust me, because I was going to pronounce it Kaibler, and then I looked it up and it says, rhymes with rib, like ribler.

And I was like, perfect. It's Kibler. Far Western Arkansas. This is two hours and 15 minutes to Little Rock, if you want to go that way. Two hours and 50 minutes to Oklahoma City the other way. So it's kind of almost right in between them. And about two hours and 15 minutes to Austin, Arkansas, which was our last Arkansas episode, episode 664, the deadly grandma and the doppelganger. That was a wild one, by the way.

This is in Crawford County, area code 479. Now, a little bit of history on Kibler. is a small town. Yeah. It's like the bigger towns nearby are places like Van Buren. Like not big, and Fort Smith is the big city nearby, which has like 80,000 people,

but that's the big city. So it's a real small area out in Kibbler. It's about halfway between the I-40 and the Arkansas River. Ah. So right between the freeway and the Arkansas River. It's interesting. That thing's muddy. It's a gross river.

Brown, absolutely. Originally known as Prairie Grove in the beginning. Apparently, it's very hilly in this region and didn't attract a lot of settlers until the 1800s. A guy named John Kibler is said to have arrived from Germany in the 1840s. And there's also Mary Kibler and all this type of thing. Hilly, not mountaine. Yeah, hilly. Yeah, just hills.

Yeah, there's no mountains over there. It's just this is the hills. Prairie plains. Arkansas's got some hills. and then they go away completely before you get to Oklahoma. I think that's where they drew the border. Where to the hills stop. Yeah, if there's anything over about seven inches of elevation,

that's still Arkansas. We can't have that. So wells for natural gas were dug in 1914 on the Binks Kibler Farm. So they're farming gas at that point. And then more wells the next year on a different farm. And then a sawmill was built to harvest trees in order to clear land. for gas wells and for cotton farms. Yeah, more wells and farms.

So this was probably a pretty nice scenic area at one point. And then they, you know, destroyed it all. Reviews of this town could only find one. And I was honestly surprised there was any. It was one of those small towns. It's a four-star review. And it says, I would definitely choose to live here again because it is a safe environment.

The atmosphere is always great. I see this town expanding in the future. This guy writing this on his deathbed? She'll live here again. I don't know, but where is it? What is he talking? It's going to expand? I don't know.

I think the big next boom. I mean, we had booms. I mean, Austin was pretty booming for a while. Austin, Texas, and, you know, people were going places. Nashville. Very boom in Vegas. I think the next one's Kibler, Arkansas. Is that it?

Well, I was going to go to Nashville, but man, those burbs are getting expensive. Kibler's my next choice, though. What the fuck? people in this town 1324. Oh yeah, it's going to be a metropolis in no time. It's going to be huge. What is that person seeing? I mean, I understand what they haven't seen, but what have they seen them?

They made them think that this is a booming place. Seems like they're sitting in whatever place they've moved to because this place was terrible and they couldn't get a job. So they moved somewhere else and they're just having some reminiscent flashbacks of like, boy, that place was great. I bet a lot of other people will go there since I want to go back. Yeah. You know, that must mean everyone agrees with me. More women than men in this town, barely 50.2% women. So a few more.

Median age here is a couple of years below the national average, about 35.2. Now, the family, normally 50-50 is average for married. Here it is 69% married. Good God. These people are married. I don't know if the courthouse isn't close enough to get a divorce or what the deal is, They are sticking around. 30% single.

I mean, 30% of this country is unmarriable. You know what I mean? Oh, absolutely. 30. So these, all the mariable people are married. 30. At least. I was going to say.

Yeah, we're talking, I mean, even some of the people that are married. I would say 80 to 85% of the country is unmariable. Yeah. Right? For one reason or another. Whether they're hideous or just in a, in a lifestyle. An asshole. Yeah.

A fucking pill addict. I mean, you could name a bunch of different things. That's about 85% of this country if you put all those things under an umbrella. It's a miracle that it's as high a married population as it is. Yeah, well, maybe they're just too lazy to get divorced, though. You don't know. That's probably it too. People settling.

That's possible, too. Race in this town, 91.3% white, 0.0% black in Arkansas, not a black person in town. That seems, that's weird. 1.4% Asian, 1.2% Native American, which is a, above the national average actually and 1.1% Hispanic. So why? Fascinating. Religion here, 5050 is normal. This is 51.3% of the people here are religious, which is kind of lower than you would think for this kind of area. But as you wouldn't think, though, the most, the number one religion here is Baptist, of course. As we know, Baptists are the Catholics of the South everywhere.

0.0% Jewish or Muslim or anything like that. Unemployment is low here. actually under the national average. Median household income also below the national average. It's 69,000 in the rest of the country here, 56,563. So a little bit low. But the cost of living is also lower. The rest of the country, let's say it's 100 as average. Here it is 76 for cost of living.

And the housing is the low thing. That's how they all have fishing boats. That's the only way. Median home cost here, 151. $1,600. Dang. So, I mean, that's... You can do it.

That is very, very cheap. So, I don't know, maybe we've convinced you to make Kibler the next boomtown. I'm not sure. I'm surprised that's not the motto. If we have convinced you, we have for you the Kibbler, Arkansas, real estate report. Average two-bedroom rental here goes for $830.30. below the national average. Yeah.

Well below. So I found some shit here. Here is a five acres of land. Yeah? Totally undeveloped. Just woods. Just, just barren. Just woods.

$75,000. Which seems... How many acres? Five. That seems steep. That is expensive. Right? For not developed at all?

Like no... Not even a little... Cathering or anything? No, no, nothing. This is just a patch of woods, basically. That's it. Here is a two-bedroom, one-bedroom. bath, 960 square foot, really old shitty metal trailer.

It's terrible looking. But if you buy this, you'll get the entire trailer park, 10 acres of trailer park. You're the box. You are the trailer master here. The park was built in 1965. The listing says, unlimited possibilities. You can have crackheads and child molesters. There's a few limits.

I would say there's plenty of limits here. The property was formerly an active mobile home park and presents an exceptional development potential with ample space for up to six homes. You can create a small subdivision or just live in it in your trailer. $166,500 for that. Wow, 10 acres? Yeah, and that's a $12,000 price cut. So it seems like five acres is about $75 grand in that ballpark here.

And then one, here's one, a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1171 square foot house. It's a little brick house, pretty nice, decent on the inside, small lot. $169,900. That's your castle. Now this is the castle here. Five bedroom, four bath, 7,318 square feet, which the house doesn't look at.

The house looks like a rural information center. It would be the best way to put it. Like there should be pamphlets in one of those things outside. That's what looks like. It's got a basement or what? It has to, but it's 20.67 acres, and there's like a huge pond and like with a dock and like all kinds of shit like that. It's a lot of land.

$949,000. Don't think so. Just had a price cut of $20,000. I don't know what they were thinking there. I would never pay a million dollars to live in Arkansas. No. Not a chance. Fuck no.

No. That's why that house is sitting there. Someone built that and then went, I have enough money to not live in Arkansas, and then they left. Well, they used to. They spent it all in that house. Things to do here. Old Fort Days. This is at Fort Smith, which is.

nearby. It's like five miles away. Now, I'll give you a schedule. It runs for a few days. But I'll give you a basic everyday schedule is pretty much the same. There's a rodeo parade. And then there's a mutton bustin event of some kind.

There's qualifying and then like they go through the rounds. A whole thing for the kids. Oh yeah. There's live music at the old Fort Day's stage, which we'll talk about what that music is in just a moment. And of course, you know, all sorts of fireworks and shit like that.

I'm sure, street dances or some horseshit like we always read about in these places. Musical acts that will be playing. Leah Butler, who's just a chick who's leaning against a huge keyboard that's standing up. She's like leaning on it. Oh. She plays a giant Cassio. The Lane Louder Band, which... It's Lod.

It's L-O-W, so it's like Loder. I guess it might be Loder. He looks like a 15-year-old boy dressed up like a cowboy. Oh, that's a dude. It's hilarious. Lane Loder, yeah. You look at this guy and go, dude, stop making that. He's like, making a face like, I'm a tough cowboy singer.

It's like, dude, you are 12. You're 12. Like, you're late for math class. Seriously. Change your last name. That's very confusing. It's also confusing. Kennedy Holland, who's just some chick wearing a tiara for some reason.

I don't know where she got that from. Bourbon rain. I'm going to give you a guess what those people look like. Bourbon rain. That is a bunch of fellas in very, very weird hats. That is four old men is what that is. I wish it would rain bourbon. One of them said one night and they're like, me too, man.

If there was a bourbon rain. The rain is poisoned and it kind of tastes like bourbon. I wish it got you drunk too instead of just sick. Instead of just burning your mouth. Oh, man. Todd Mittgy. There has never been a worse stage name than Mittgy, and my name is Petrigallo. So, M-I-T-T-G-E, Mitt-G-E.

That's a horrible name. It's a terrible name. He looks like a complete dork. He looks like whatever company you work at, picture the IT guy, now put a cowboy hat on him. That's this fucking guy, dork. Then there's Uncle Fudge. Yeah. Uncle Fudge, which sounds disgusting.

That sounds like he's molests your kids. Yeah, that's the worst uncle. That's Uncle Fudge, watch out. Then, though, the problem is when you look at them, it's exactly what you think it was. It's four guys, and they look like four different families kicked out the worst uncle, and they all four in the band. That's what it looks like. It looks like the uncle that no one wants at their house, all four of them together. Uncle Fudge is four guys?

Four guys who look like the worst uncle ever. That's what's great about it. Oh, gross. Wow. Sarah Murrah, M-U-R-R-A-H. Murrah, I guess. That sounds like a southern person saying Murray. Isn't that the name of the building that they exploded in Oklahoma City?

Is it the M-U-R-R-A-H? I think it was. I'm not sure how it was spelled. The Libby Starks Band. Uh-huh. You know what they are? Libby Starks. Very small blonde girls.

There's a blonde chick and a cowboy hat. And then a bunch of dudes behind her. It says under them, real country, real music, real fun. Okay. There's not a lot of diversity in the music so far. Not really. No, no. You know what you're getting here.

Then there is Cowboy Hour with Heath Wright and Chris Hempfling. We got two of them. We should be at Hemphling and Mitkey together to form the worst name band of a. Mitkey and Hemphling, I think, is. How many albums are they sell? God, you got to take a beat before you pronounce that band. Yeah, you do.

So you get all the syllables and consonants in there. It's too much. It's too hard. It's hard everywhere. A lot of consonants. Chase Prince and the Redemption. And then Stormy Sullivan, some chick,

and then the Dustin Boyd band. Yeah, Dustin Boyd. He's going to put his name on it. All these people have cowboy hats. It's just too much for me. They all sing the same. shit. What's the point? Just have one of them. Oh, he's going to sing his song about beer in a parking lot now. Okay, that's good. Oh, he added a pickup truck to it. This is, he's really.

They all got to have a meeting beforehand so that they don't all cover the same Toby Keith's song. It's like comics beforehand. If you're on a lineup with people and like, there was another comic whose son was autistic. So we would literally get together and go, which jokes are you doing? And are you going to do your I'll do well. Okay, you do that section. That's nothing like my shit over there. So we can, You know, we can both do that. Tell you what, you talk about your kid's school. I'll do everything else. Yeah, I'll do the home stuff and, you know, I'll do that.

So crime rate in this town, what we are interested in, property crime just under the national average, which a town of a thousand people, it seems like it should be farther below it than that. Then violent crime, murder, rape robbery, and of course assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime is also, is about 20% under the average. So, that's better. That's what happens. You cover my Toby Keith song. So that said, let's talk about some murder. What do we say here? Let's do it.

Okay, let's start out hot January 6th, 1981 in Arkansas. Yikes. Summer of 81. January 6th. Oh, January, not June. No, no, January 6th, the winter of 81. I got to see a doctor. You got to see a doctor.

We'll go back to that again. No wonder why he couldn't follow Widows Bay. You just said the month. I was like, Summer. What goddamn day did he say that was that they're doing here? Who'd they find in the basement? What's going on?

A J and an N. Yeah, that's June. Yeah, that works. 1.30 p.m. Jauna Price, a young lady, 21 years old, she calls up a company called Baldor Electric Company, where her husband, Larry, works as a machinist.

Oh. He's 22. young couple just got married. Now, they say that Larry said, Larry said that he, they said that Larry had called in and said that he wasn't going to be at work that day. She's like, what are you talking about?

He's going to be at work that day. That's crazy. Now, the reason why she's calling at 1.30 is because they were supposed to meet at lunch at noon, and he never showed up. So she's like, what the fuck is going on here? So it's 1.30. So she calls his work like,

hey, Dickhead, I waited for you. You know, because this is pre-cell phones and everything like that. Two hours go by. She doesn't hear from him. And back then, you could call a couple of people, and that was pretty much it. You pretty much just had to wait after that, you know. And so 3.30 p.m., she calls Baldor again and is told that the man who called in to tell them that Larry would not be there wasn't Larry. Some other guy called.

Oh, somebody called in for Larry. Someone called in for Larry. She gets to the bottom of it. You talk to Larry and they're like, no, no, no, some guy called for him. They're like, who? What are you talking about? Who calls in for you at work? 81 was a different time.

Yeah. Imagine somebody calling in for you? Unless you're like, you know, in the emergency room. Yeah. Like, you know, your spouse calls in for you or whatever. Exactly. Your spouse or like your mother or somebody calls in, but not your. Not just a random.

Hey, Chuck, call me in to work, will you? You do that for me, please? Like, imagine asking your buddy. Hi, my name is Chuck. I'm calling in for Larry. Larry ain't going to be there today. Yeah. Well, I guess there's only limited questions they could ask.

Well, why isn't he coming in? I don't know. He didn't tell me. He just said to tell you all he wasn't coming. Oh, okay. So there's one way. So then 5 p.m. comes up. Uh-huh.

And now there's Joanna starting to get upset here. Still no Larry. Still no Larry. So her and a neighbor, who is a friend of theirs also, actually go down to the Fort Smith police station to, file a missing person's report about him. Because as far as she knew, he was going to work that day. She saw him in the morning.

They had lunch plans. And now he's just disappeared into thin air. He didn't show up to work. He didn't show up to lunch. Now he's not home for dinner. Well, it's five. So, yeah, she was going down after 3.30 when she heard that. I think she sat around, you know, machinated on it for a minute.

And then was like, we should probably report him missing, right? So they go on down to the police station and they meet with detectives, James Davis and Ray Tate. Tate says, I'll bite. Let's see what's going on. And he says, lead me over to the apartment that you guys live at. I'm going to look around and then I'll start from there, basically. So, 6.04 p.m. Detective Tate, well, he radios the police station at 604 p.m. He gets in his car and Jentry and Jantri is her friend.

Joanna Price and Gentry to the apartment complex. Gentry's the last night? Gentry's a, yes, the last name. We'll talk about the first name and middle name because they're interesting. So Gentry and Joanna lead him there. Tate radios the police dispatcher at 604 p.m. And says he has arrived at the apartment. Now, from there, there is contact coming into him.

People are trying to get a hold of him on the radio to find out status and things like that. He does not answer his radio after that and never radios back again. Oh. Gone. Disappeared. Just not answering the radio. So they're like, okay, well, maybe it died. Doubt it, but maybe it died.

But so the detective they're looking for is William Ray Tate. Goes by Ray here. And Tate here, he's born June 14th, 1947. So, you know, was he 34 at this point? Oh, yeah, he's a young man. That's wild. 33. Young man.

He's from Salome Springs in Benton County. and police can't reach Tate on his radio by 630, so they start to be a little bit worried. And whether or not it died or not, they still want to know. So at 7.10 p.m., Detective Davis, the other guy, he goes to the apartment as well, that goes to the address that he knew Tate was going to. Oh.

He shows up to find the door ajar. He's like, okay, he opens the door and doesn't see anybody. There's no Tate, there's no Joanna Price. Do you want a friend? No, take car or anything like that? No, that's the thing. Nothing is there. But he does find the telephone receiver cord ripped from its socket.

Yeah. And he finds his partner's flashlight. It's like a horror movie. Lens down on the table, you know, standing up. As they said, him, one of the maglights. And he said, that's one of our flashlights. He's like, why the fuck would he? He'd never leave his flashlight behind.

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That's P-O-S-H-M-A-R-K dot com slash small-town murder. Now back to the show. So at this point, no people, phone ripped out of the wall, his partner's flashlight there, now they freak out. Alien abduction kind of shit. Yeah, by 8 p.m. It is a full-on search for Tate's police car, which is an unmarked car, by the way, which also doesn't help. Oh, that's not helpful.

That's not helpful. At least a marked car, it'd be easy to find. It's just a blue sedan, so it's hard to find. In 81, when they didn't have trackers on those things. No trackers, no GPS. You had no fucking idea. You just had to look. So who knows.

Now, let's find out who the hell they were looking for to begin with when they went in. Larry. Larry A. Price is his name. Larry is the missing person. He is born April 1st, 1959. He was 21 at this point in time, for Christ's sake. Didn't even turn 22 yet. He's got a dad name Burl, which is a great dad name, B-U-R-L, Burl.

Like Burl-L-Eves, the guy who sings the Christmas songs. That's a real old dad name. I don't like any name like that. This is my dad, Burl. Burl sounds, cool. Miltie, Uncle Milt. That's a good name, too. Milton Burl?

Yeah, because he's Milton Birl. Yeah, because he's a kind old man. It's just such a nice thing. He's not a kind old man, Milton Burrell. He wasn't kind? Fuck, no. He was the biggest dick in show business. Everyone hated Milton Burrell.

I've never heard that. I heard he had the biggest dick and show business. He had a shrieky. He loved showing it to everybody. But he was a complete asshole that guy. Really? Yeah, no one liked Milton Burl. He's a real dick.

No kidding. Yeah, real dick. Well, never mind. Look up his contract that he signed in the early 50s. It's incredible. It's incredible. It's incredible. It's a little.

Like, to what? To TV, a TV deal. Because before, because back when TV first started, it was only like in New York City area. Yeah. And he was, he got like an 80 share. Like he, the whole, everyone that had a TV watched him.

So they were like, oh man, we got to get this guy signed. So they signed him to like a 25 year deal for like crazy money every week. And then by the time it started going national in like two years, nobody watched him anymore because they were like, that piece too New Yorkie and to whatever. so they really lost their asses on the deal. It's very interesting. Whoops. They really bet hard.

He made money for decades, though, Milton Burrow. So he's got a mom named Geraldine. Burrell and Geraldine. Those are parents there. Hell yeah. And his wife is Joanna Claudette Parker Price now, but she was born Joanna Claudette Parker. She's born August 13, 1959, so they're only a few months apart.

Her dad is named Claude, which is why she's Claudette. Yeah. And her mom's name is Patsy Parker. Patsy Parker. Great names. Great names for parents. She came from a very small community here.

I guess Larry was from Flat Rock, and she was from Lamar, which is a very small town. But they met in high school, and they started dating in the 12th grade when they were seniors, which was like a year and a half ago. Yeah, literally. A minute ago, yeah. Yeah. But it's all in Arkansas, huh? Yeah, yeah, it's all in the little area here.

They had fun together. They have a lot of things in common. She's real shy. Larry's real outgoing. She's short. He's tall. It all works here. They literally said, we both have very thick brown hair.

We'd make pretty babies. And so they got married. Yeah. As you do. When you're in Arkansas and it's 19-fucking 78. You're cute enough. Yeah. They get married in August of 1917.

which means that shit he was good god almost 20 right not well he was born in 59 so yeah 19 barely barely it was she wasn't even 19 interesting okay um so they get married um now so high school sweet sweethearts get married larry gets a job at baldoor electric company as a machinist yeah yeah so that's what he's been doing and joanna has a job too but she's training to be a registered nurse She's going to school for that. And so they get an apartment together. And they get an apartment managed and partially owned by a guy named by a guy named Holly by a guy named Holly Kim Gentry.

Is that right? Holly Kim is his name. Awesome. I'll give you the explanation for that, by the way. He's born August 12, 1953. Real nice guy, this Holly, Holly Gentry from what everybody says. just like a real, like a easy going. Everybody likes him, goes with the flow type of guy, befriended them pretty quickly after renting them their apartment here.

Yeah, he's a part owner of the complex also. And so he manages it. He's a nice guy. He's from Alma, Arkansas. His dad is named Robert. He has a brother and a sister. And also a sister that died in infancy in 1948. Damn it. 47 to 48 here. He graduated from Alma High School, which I believe we've talked about Alma before here on the show. That sounds familiar. And then he went to the University of Arkansas and graduated from there, too.

Oh, boy. He was a manager of Phoenix Village Mall and also part owner of this apartment complex. Wow. He goes very much into church where he's a member of the choir. And, yeah, former member of the deacons of the church. a commander of the Royal Rangers, a member, which is, I don't know what that is. I guess it's part of the Crawford County Mounted Patrol. Oh.

So I guess it's like a voluntary. Royal unit that rolls out the horses when there's a problem. I don't know why you would need that, like riot control in a town of a thousand people. But on horseback, that's fucking, that's frightening too. That's aggressive. Well, they use that in like Manhattan where there's huge crowds of people to control. This is even Fort Smith where he hangs out is still 80,000 people. What could be the crowd?

That's what I'm saying. I don't know where they're getting a crowd from. You'd really have to gather everybody to get a crowd. So he's also a member of the Christian Men's Business Committee and the International Council of Shopping Centers, which I had no idea there was an international council of strip malls. But there is. He's doing well for himself. He's also named, and this you could take it either way, because we've mentioned this one other time on the show,

and the guy who we talked about was a horrible murderer that was a part of it. He is named in one of the books of the outstanding young men of America. It's back again. The outstanding young men of America. My God. I can't believe it exists. It's the funniest thing in the world. I really want every copy of all those just to look up those people and find out how many of them are like murderers and rapists.

I want to look at all of your child molesters. I love it. So he's got a wife and a son, a wife and a son, Holly Kim. He has plans for building a strip mall. And this is, he is right on target for the timing on that. 1980 strip malls are blowing up. He and his brother, Mark, who is a minister and taught at these central Bible. College in Springfield, Missouri.

They said they felt called to build the stores. God said we need a yarn barn. God said the Dollar General must go here. We feel. We need a TV repair shop,

a coin-operated laundromat. Got to have a laundromat. Then you got to have a dry cleaner, too, just in case. You never know. So that's what's going. Maybe an ice cream shop, something like that. So, and they needed, well, they said the calling was to build the stores so that they'd make more money to finance Mark's mission work. So that's the calling.

Oh, the whole goal is to get to those underdeveloped countries and lock them into Christianity. And then fucking, yes, and then tell them a new lie rather than the ones they've been told. They can get more money. Perpetual money. Perpetual. They were both devoted to church here, super into it. the Faith Assembly of God in Fort Smith. And Holly Gentry does youth work with his church too.

And he said he felt the need to carry the gospel to the young children in other parts of the world. Sure. So the Royal Rangers, by the way, are a group of children that he leads. Kids on horseback? Not on horseback at all. He just also is part of the Mounted people. But the Royal Rangers are, like the Christian Boy Scouts in this area, I think.

They like to, which is basically the Boy Scouts. They, he takes them camping and hiking and all that kind of shit, which is what they do. The year before, he took them all the way to the Rockies to camp out. It's a long ride. Now his name, he explained it that, my sweet mama, Odessa Howard, loved cowboys. Yeah. That's what she said. And he said that she saw a movie with Jimmy Stewart and he played a hero whose name was Holly.

That is how he got the name Holly And then they went Might as well go all the way And name him Kim is his middle name They didn't get Kimberly He just got Kim Kim K-I-M

That's it So yeah They're like Maybe people think he's Asian And they laughed It is interesting How Cowboys got a lot of girl names They do

They do A shitload of them It's an interesting I don't wonder why I don't know I don't know what that is I'd love to read a book You're going to follow it

Probably not I just want to know why they did that. But it's a very... That's interesting. There's a lot of Tracy's, a lot of Stacey's. There's a lot of ladies' names in cowboy culture. Was it Johnny Cash that did it? No, it was before this boy named sushi?

Or was it before that? Or was he just commenting on the trend? There's been boys named Lauren since the 1800s. Yeah, that was, yeah. Yeah, it's spelled L-O-R-E-N. Yeah. Yeah, that's different. I think that came before the women's name of Lauren, honestly. It might have.

I've never read about anybody from the 17th century named Lauren. There was a lot of Laura. Laura. Yeah, Lauren, I think, came later. It sounds like a 70s name, Lauren. I'll bet it's, I mean, I'll bet it's pioneer shit, probably. Maybe. No.

December 16th, 1980 comes around. Now, the prices, Larry and Joanna, agree to help Holly Gentry sell a car for him. Holly's got a lot of shit going on. He's a very busy guy and he doesn't have time to take calls and sell this car. Sure. So he said, hey, if you guys get calls, if you have time, just will you show this car for me and, you know, just kind of whatever, try to sell it for me. And they're friends, so they agree. So they put an ad in the paper on December 16th.

It's a classified ad in the Southwest Times record. And it reads, must sell 1979 Ford LTD, two door, silver, which. with maroon top and interior, very clean, $4,2,295. Interesting color scheme of that car. It's strange. And that's like a year old car. It's a 79. We're in December of 80.

And 4295 is the price. See at 710 North 48th apartment 1 or call 7854185. Okay. So by January 5th, they still have the car. Still haven't sold the car. which around the week of Christmas is not a great time to sell a car. You're going to move $4,000 worth a car in that in 70 and 81? That's, that's tough.

Yeah. People, A, need money for Christmas. Yeah. And B, it's just not, you know, it's not a matter of necessity. Yeah, it's not a necessity. And you're also busy. Right. You got family shit and all, you know, kids and all.

You have time to go look at 4,000. That's aroused the, aroused what that car costs new anyway. I don't know. Oh, and 80, who knows. I don't know what kind of features it was. But it was 6 grand, brand new five, something like that. Not the 80, they were more than that by 80. Were they?

Yeah, because it's a big car. It's a pretty chunky car. Probably get a Toyota for that price back then. Yeah? I don't think you can get anything more than that. January 5th, 1981, 8.30 a.m. Okay. This is someone wanted to see the car.

All right. So Larry answered his apartment door and lets a man in who's interested in the car. Okay. They go out and take a test drive of the car. Go out and take a spin real quick. So they go out. He says, sure, I'll go with you here. So Joanna is still in the house, and it's January, it's cold, and she is going back.

This is her first day back, I guess, no, it's not quite started yet, nursing school. So she's doing nursing school. She has one more week off for Christmas break, and then she goes back to nursing school. So she's doing a part-time job. job as secretarial work at the Phoenix Village Mall, which her neighbors got her and her friends got her that job. And then she's got to go back to class and do all that shit. So I guess, what is it, Westark?

Westark, Fort Smith is where she, it's a community college in Fort Smith, Westark. Yeah. Like Western Arkansas. Wasn't far. So that's where she's been going. She's always wanted to be a nurse. And she's eager to get back to school too. I guess she's into, she does pediatric.

psychology and ICU are her areas, which are all interesting areas. Now, Larry's out for a test drive. She's getting dressed for her day at work in the bedroom. And yeah, so somebody had come that morning and she said, yeah, whatever, great deal. So Joanna puts her shoes on. She's got khaki slack. She's got some brown shoes. She puts those on a white top.

And, you know, she's getting ready. She could hear the man and her husband return in the least. living room. Oh, yeah. You can hear that car comment. She heard the door close. Okay. In the living room. Now, she wanted to get rid of this car already. Number one, because it was only going to be in the paper for another couple days and then they'd had to rerun the air. So that's annoying and she felt bad about it. She wished that she and Larry could afford to buy it because it was a nice car, but they were, you know, a young couple like this. They can't afford a car like that. So, too new for them. So now, one of the neighbors had told them that a man

come by on Saturday afternoon to look at the car. And he told Larry to tell you the truth, he didn't look like he could afford that car. And Larry said, oh, don't judge a book by its cover. You never know. That's a fact. You never know where someone's coming, especially on a Saturday.

He could have been doing anything. Could have been working in his yard, then decided to look at a car and he looks like a bum, but he's very wealthy. He owns that big house that we did in the real estate report. Yeah. It's like, I got 900,000 sunk into Arkansas. He owns all four of those places.

Yeah, exactly. But the car needs to get sold, like we said. The 6th of January is the last day it's going to run, which is the next day. So there we go. Now, she walks out of the bedroom, says hi to Larry, asks how the test drive was. Yeah. You know, Larry said, you know, this guy, you think he wants to buy the car. So they're like, great.

Larry made, she notices Larry made coffee because there was two cups out on the coffee table. So, you know, immediately brought this guy in, gave him a cup of coffee. Awesome. Larry's a nice guy. So they were doing that. So he looked a little disheveled this guy. He had a blue jacket frayed around the collar and sleeves. And underneath that, he had a blue shirt with what looked like an insulated shirt under it.

Hmm. Okay. And he had a mustache and long curly sideburns and a big comb over over his bald spot, this guy. That's a hell of an outfit. That is quite looking nah. That's how you want to look right there. All the ladies, once he gets in that LTT, I mean, honestly, it's going to be dangerous. The amount of fucking women that are going to bum rush him is going to be dangerous.

He is the human personification of a 79 Ford LTT. He is. But he'd be like a 72 with some rust on the doors. In 80s, 79's still pretty new. This guy's been around He's been through the ringer a little bit here So that's what he's doing He's got glasses that are kind of out of style

Thick lenses black frames Like the 60s Or he's in prison one of those Or the Army or something He's thin What's his goddamn name? Shit, now it doesn't matter Ed Kemper

Is that who you're going for? San Francisco serial killer Never caught him the Zodiac. Bingo Zodiac, there you go So yeah, kind of like that. He's thin, kind of sunken in looking, but he looks wiry. He looks like he's not a pushover.

He doesn't look frail. He just looks like, nes, sinewy, kind of. And also, he kind of smelled a little bit. A little stinky. Hot. Yeah. Like I said, he's going to have to fight him off with a stick once he gets in that LTT. They're going to be diving on the hood across the windshield.

He's going to be running the windshield wipers just to knock off the women. They're diving on, throwing their panties. stuffing them in the windows. Turn on the windshield wipers around and spraying water at the ladies. Get back. Get back. Go. Go.

So that's how he is. Now, she wasn't sure that he looked like he could afford it, but that's not really her problem. And she's like, why would he look at a car he can't afford? So she took off. They made plans to see each other around noon. They made plans to try a Mexican place, which sounds terrifying in 1981 in Arkansas. Can you imagine how shitty that Mexican food was? Is it new and hip, or is it just?

No. I mean, Mexican food is at that point. Yeah. Mexican food really didn't hit America to like the 70s outside of the Southwest, obviously. Really didn't hit till later. And like there was people, I can't remember what I saw it on, but people were talking about in the 70s, they discovered nachos. And everyone was like, oh, my God, you can just get these chips and you put cheese on it. He just put it in the oven for a minute and it melts on there.

It's incredible. That blew their fucking minds. They didn't discover nachos. They discovered cheese on chips. Cheese on chips. To them, nachos. Yeah.

This was, you know, in New York in the 70s. Yeah. So, I mean, it was not very popular. So they talk about, neither of them, I guess, like to wear coats for some reason, which is interesting. So they talk about seeing each other at noon. And she leaves and leaves Larry and this gentleman. gentleman in the house here. So apparently he wanted to basically, he asked if he could use the phone.

He wants to call his wife to go over the car with her, basically. Okay. So Larry says, sure, phones in the bedroom, I'll be right back. And he walks Joanna out to the car. And she takes her keys out of her purse, hands them to him for some reason. reason. Oh, because he's going to lock the door of the house. I don't know if they only have one set of keys. So anyway, he gives her, oh, he unlocked the door and held it for her while she saw. I got it. He opens the door for, he takes the keys, opens a door for she gets in. Yeah. They've been married very short amount of time.

And then, uh, and then that's, that's that. And then gives the keys back to her. And, um, she leaves with those two in the house alone. Now, while this is going on, the man inside is in their dresser. snooping through their drawers. Oh. And he finds a checkbook and tears out a check and puts the checkbook back. Okay. Okay. So this guy's basically trying to get Larry to take him with the car to go see his wife so his wife can see the car.

That's what's going on at this point. So apparently, from what we understand, they left in the car together to go show his wife is what they think here. And they're talking, small talk and all that kind of shit. Now, noon comes around, and Larry Price does not show up at lunch. No tacos for Larry. So that's when Joanna calls a neighbor and asks the neighbor, will you go check on him, basically? Her friend Carol, who lived in the same apartment complex. And she said, I'm sorry to ask you, but do you mind walking down and seeing if Larry's home,

He's supposed to pick me up for lunch. And, you know, I'm kind of worried, basically. He hasn't come. She said, also, see if that car that's for sale is still parked out front. So see if that guy bought that car or not, basically. So Juana gives her the office number to where she's at, and they go. So Carol calls back and said, I called and got no answer. Then I went down and knocked on the door a bunch of times.

Your cat peeked through the curtains, but I didn't see any people. Okay. That's that. They said, what about the car? Was the car there? Larry always parks in a certain spot. And that's where she'd left him earlier. And so she's like, you know,

they said, yes, Larry's car is there, but the car he's selling was gone. So his car's there. He won't answer the door or he's not home. And the for sale car is gone. It's gone. So now she's really worried, Joanna now. She's like, none of that is right. none of that's right

yeah as long as there's if there's if there's no Larry then yeah we got a problem we got a problem and she's not

answering the door but his car's there but the other car's gone so there and he's not it's strange and he's not at work so it makes no sense

so like I said she called Baldor electric at one o'clock and called it again at 3.30 and then at 5 o'clock went down to the

went down with Holly Gentry right the neighbor no no Holly Gentry the boss The neighbor, the guy with the complex who's selling the car.

She goes with him to the police station to say, what the fuck, basically, right? So Ray Tate, he takes the case, Detective Tate, 604, he calls in, I'm here, I'm at the location, what up, you know? And then 630 comes around and he's not heard from again. After that. Now, a little bit about William Ray Tate here, the detective, he's got a wife, he's got two kids, He's got a boy and a girl. He's got a wife named Anita. He joined the Fort Smith

Police Department in June of 76, and for the last two years or so, he's been a detective. He's also a master sergeant in the Air National Guard, the Arkansas Air National Guard, reserves, and was a recruiter for them as well. So he does a lot. But he can't be reached on his radio.

So it's 7 p.m., that is when his partner, Detective Davis, who, by the way, goes by Poncho here. So Detective Davis here gets a call and it's Burl Price, Larry's dad. Yeah. And he's like, that's interesting. He sounded very worried

and he said, I helped fill out the missing person report on your son. How can I help you? And dad Burrell said, we were supposed to meet Joanna at her apartment, but she's not there. She called us this afternoon

and begged us to come to Fort Smith. And they said, well, what time was this? When did you get to the apartment? And Burl says, we got here about 6.30, but the place was empty and the lights were on. We went over to Tom Gilbert's apartment and he called the police station for me. But the lady, whoever she was, told us that Detective Tate and Joanna and Holly had left earlier. So that's at least if you're a, you know, that's some sort of relief. Where is my daughter-in-law?

Well, she went to the police station and left with me. the detective. Left with a cop. That's good. Yeah, at least she's safe, they think, here. So the detective says, where are you now?

And Burrell says, we're at Tom Gilbert's apartment, and we waited, but then we went over to the state police headquarters to see if they could help us, but we're back here at Tom's now and we're scared to death.

Joanna's parents are here with me and my wife. So, I mean, by 6.30, everyone's families are there, looking for them. They're all gathered together. They at least care about each other. They talk a lot and communicate enough to where they know something's off.

Yeah, and they're young. They're still young. So it's not like, I think they think of these people as kids still, you know, and you want to find out where they are. So this detective said, I will be there. Detective Davis said, it'll take me about 10 minutes. I'll be there. Don't worry. I'm gone the way.

So 7.10 p.m., the front door to apartment one, slightly ajar. So he walks inside hesitatingly, like we said at the top of the show. The front door leads directly to the living room. he sees two coffee cups that Joanna had mentioned earlier. Sitting on the table in front of the couch. And next to the cups was a large face-down flashlight, the cop's flashlight. So he said, oh, this is strange.

So he goes into the apartment a little further and looks around and notices that it's really clean and tidy, no dirty dishes, no dirty clothes tossed on chairs, just tidy, very, very tidy. And he said, you know, he sees a lot of the inside of homes, and this was pretty fucking immaculate compared to most other places, he goes. Yeah, he said, obviously, they take care of their home and, you know, they seem like decent people here. In the bedroom, the bed is made.

The room is in perfect order. The phone is still plugged into the wall, but the wires to the phone itself had been jerked out. The wall. The receiver wires pulled out. It's probably one of those where it's connected, not the plug-in ones. Back then it was still, you got your phone from the phone. company and it was that big fucking...

Yeah, it's like soldered into the receiver and soldered into the box. Big line that goes in the back. Yeah, and that's what's that. So, now, Joanna had told the detectives earlier that she knew where the papers were

to the gentry car that was for sale. So this cop looks around to see if you can see any envelopes or manila folders lying around that look like they might contain, you know, the papers. Official paperwork.

And he didn't find anything. So he walks across the apartment yard to a home across the street and asks to use their phone. He calls the police station and asks for an alert to be put out for missing people. Joanna Price, Holly Gentry, Larry Price, who's already reported missing. And now add Detective Ray Tate to the mix too because he ain't here in his cars in here. His flashlight's here, but he's not answering his radio. There's a problem. So that's crazy.

He didn't want to use his radio because he didn't want to. It's why he called on the phone because he didn't know if somebody had a scanner, whoever did this and would know what was going on. And now they know to run. So he also asked that a team be sent out to the apartment to take fingerprints and perform, you know, an investigation to lock it down, basically. Then he walks back to the apartment complex and he finds Burl Price again. And he says it looks like detectives Tate's police car.

is missing, his flashlight's on the coffee table, the phone is torn up and ripped out. I just called the station and we've put out on alert. My guess is they've all been kidnapped, but we're going to find them, which is not what you want to hear from the cops when you call it. My guess is everybody's been kidnapped, but it'll be fine. My guess is we have four separate kidnappings, and this person's so badass, they can get detectives. Even an armed detective and everything, which seems far-fetched, you know what I mean, that that would have. It seems like a tough, that's probably the hardest kidnapping. A on-duty police officer, probably.

Yeah, he's got a lot. It's a tough one. Yeah, he's on guard. He's got a gun. He's got several weapons. Had on a swivel. You would think so. Situational awareness.

This guy's not fucking around. No. So 8 p.m., the Arkansas and Oklahoma police all start to search because now there's a missing. It's one thing if you got a missing couple, or three missing people. But when there's a missing cop, then they all seem to really have a lot of energy about it. that point. It's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, it's interesting. So they start the search at 10.45 p.m.

Two hours and 45 minutes later, a Holly Gentry's LTD is found. Silver with the red top, that one. Not bad. They find it. It is at the central mall in Fort Smith. Oh. Okay. So that's where they find it. Within minutes,

a bunch of people arrive at the scene, including Detective Davis. The car is locked, so they have to get a locksmith to open the doors. They also got someone to open the trunk because they wanted to see if perhaps Larry was in the trunk of his car. Anything. Or of that car. Anybody. Yeah.

Anybody. And if he was, was he dead? He could have been alive. They opened the trunk, completely empty except for a spare tire. Like you were just selling it and you cleared all your shit out of there. No map books or anything like that. Now, the car is taken to the police garage to be fingerprinted and processed for all physical evidence. Yeah.

they're happy to have found the LTD, but they're saying the car is very near the interstate 540, which connects to the interstate 40, which we don't like that. If the kidnapper ditched the LTD and took off with or without these people, he could be in Tennessee by now, or he could be in Texas by now.

Three-hour head start? Yeah. Yeah. He could be anywhere halfway through Oklahoma by now. So they didn't know. They didn't know if the kidnapper ditched the LTD and sped away. Did he have Larry Price with?

with him. And if that's, and also, where the fuck are Holly, Gentry, Joanna Price, and Detective Tate? Where'd they go? Right. Someone else kidnapped them? What's happening right now? Like, this is all very confusing. If he stole Larry and took off with him, like, people were looking for them hours later. Yeah. Yeah, before the detective was even on the scene. So it makes no sense. Then 11.25 p.m. So this is, you know, less than 45 minutes later. Yeah. Still that. evening, 1125 p.m. They find Detective Tate's car. Found his car now. Not bad. Within three hours of starting the search, they found both cars they were looking for. It's pretty impressive, honestly, without GPS. It is recovered at a Union 76 truck stop. So a big truck stop gas station.

There are 57 unexplained miles on the odometer, by the way. 57. 57 unexplained miles that aren't that are not like from the apartment to. here. 57 extra miles. They don't know where the hell they came from. Because every time they get in the car, they have to do mileage, so they know exactly what it is. That's 1125. There is, yeah, so they're trying to figure it out.

And there's dust on the car, like a lot of dust. Like dirt road dust. So they're like, this looks like, because it was clean when Detective Tate got in it. So it looks like it may have been driven on dirt roads for possibly 57 miles. Miles. Yeah. Which is a bad sign when someone's been kidnapped. Oh.

And you've been taken on a dirt road. Now, the cops, they're trying to figure out what's going on here. They say this is a quote from the police captain. He says, Detective Tate and Mr. Gentry were with Mrs. Price, who was a witness. That's the only thing we can attach to this. Is they're like, what does this have to do with Larry Price disappearing? And they're like, we don't know. Right.

A cop came to invest. to find that out. And then he disappeared with the reporting people, too. So who the hell knows what's going on? However he's a, whatever it has in common, it has something real in common. Yeah. And he said, we don't know, though. We just don't know.

We can attach it that they make, you know, they happen on the same day. But other than that, we don't know. So they suspend looking, they find the cars and suspend looking for people because they have no idea where they're even looking until 6 a.m. the next morning. So we're like, let's go home, get a couple hours sleep, and then come back and figure this shit out, essentially. So, police begin a day of searching on January 6th, 1981, 6 a.m., 100 cops organized for a search effort. It's a lot. How do you even, there's got to be more than one person or more than one car, because this

cars, there's cars everywhere. There's that car. Yeah, all the cars that they, they found both the cars they're looking for. So now there's a third car somewhere, obviously, or a fourth car. cars aren't anywhere near each other. Yeah. And what are the odds of someone getting kidnapped? You report it. Get a cop over there. And then you're all kidnapped too.

Yeah. The odds of that are crazy. Outrageous. Yeah. They're outrageous. So this is bonkers. At 9 a.m., there is a man waiting at the bank for the doors to open. Okay.

Just waiting there to get in. They open the bank for him. And now this guy. said, my name's Thomas Simmons. I deposited a check yesterday on the fifth, the day of the disappearances, but I just found out from the guy who wrote it that it's no good.

He said, oh, shit, I wrote you a check. It's going to bounce. He said, so I'd like to get that check back. I don't want to have to pay no fee on no return check, he said. Which, do you, if a check bounces that you deposit from someone else, you have to pay that fee,

or do they pay a fee? I mean, you both pay a fee. I don't know who pays the fee there. just know you don't get the funds. I know you don't get the funds. So the teller, Elizabeth Arnold, asks for his address and bank account number and phone number and writes it all down.

And then she asked for the name of the person who wrote the check. Yeah. And he said, Larry Price. Uh-huh. It was on a Clarksville bank. So the teller recognized from the news the night before, the 10 o'clock news saying Larry Price is missing. She recognized the name.

Small town. Small town. And she said, I hope it's not that same man who was kidnapped yesterday. She said that out loud? She said that out loud. Yeah. Oh, my God. That's that name.

I heard that yesterday. I hope it's not the guy who got kidnapped. And he said, I hope not too. And she said, just a minute, sir, I have to talk with our bookkeeper. Her office is in the back. And she can tell me whether we can get the check back right now or not. So they go into the back room, talks to the bookkeeper, who happens to be married to a Van Buren, Arkansas. a policeman, by the way.

Of course. The assistant police chief, as a matter of fact. And the woman in the back, the bookkeeper, she recognized the name as well, Larry Price. And she tells the teller, go back and tell him that the check's already been sent off and we can't get it back. It goes first to Little Rock, then on to Clarksville, so it's going to be a few days. It'll be at least Friday before he can actually pick up the physical check. Okay.

It's Tuesday now. She then said She said that she told the man Waiting at the counter She goes out I don't have the check This guy leaves the bank He goes okay and he leaves now While he's backing out of the parking space

The bookkeeper whose husband's a cop Writes down his license plate number Smart Move And calls her husband As soon as she gets back in the bank And said there was a guy in here Trying to get a check back from a kidnapped guy Don't know if it means anything

But you'd probably know more about this than me Possibly kidnapped guy. So they do all of that. They get his license plate number. Now, the day before, he had come in and deposited the check. It was a $350 check. Yeah.

And they said he deposited $300 and got $50 in cash. Uh-oh. And they said, then he tried to get the check back and whatever. So now he's being, they call it in. So now the license plate number is called into the police and they figure out who this person is. And he wasn't lying at the bank about his name. His name is Thomas Winford Simmons. And he's 37 years old. And they find out when looking him up that he is a parolee from federal prison. Nice. At the moment. They find out he works at a sand and gravel company because his parole

officer knows where he works. That's helpful. You know, exactly where those guys are. And he, they find out that he had not been at work the day before. Oh. He apparently had said he was in a got in a car accident and called in. Oh, the car seems to be running. Yeah. So that's what happened. Then 3.14 p.m. on the 6th.

So this is all going on, the bank and all that. They're looking for everybody at 3.14 p.m. And we know the exact time because you'd remember it to this shit, put it that way. a farmer in the area, Clyde McClore, is doing some shit here. He notices blood on the ground near his diesel tank. And he says, my goddamn dogs killed a rabbit or something again. Farm dogs kill all sorts of shit. So then he returns and he walks off and comes back.

When he comes back, he spots what he describes as, quote, bare flesh. Oh. There. So he reports this to the police. And the police come in here and just a chunk of it? Just some bare flesh. Well, you can see apparently they find some farm equipment. There is a large tractor tire near a mounted diesel fuel tank.

And he said, I was coming back and I saw a bare flesh and I had a pretty good idea what it was. And they find out that it is bodies is what it is. Plural. Three bodies. Mm-hmm. Three. How many are we looking for? Yeah.

How many are we looking for? We got, there's still more out there. We got four. We're not done. Yeah. Three. So they discover these three bodies. It is a large tractor tire and there is five gallon oil containers all on top of it.

Like that, that's what someone did to hide it. Just put some oil containers on there. They find out this is the bodies of Holly Gentry, Joanna Price, and Detective Tate. Wow. They're all in this tractor. We still don't know where Larry is. They're all stuck in a tracopath.

Maybe Larry's a psychopath and he did all this shit. They don't know. Now, Tate's hands were cuffed behind him with his own handcuffs. Oh, really? Yes. Joanna Price was on the bottom of the pile. Gentry was bound with a small white cord that was around his hands

and then one was wrapped around one of his ankles and he had like one shoe and one sock missing a Holly Gentry. Juana is on the bottom of the pile. They also find a 38 caliber revolver with traces of blood also found and they find that all three have been shot execution style at the base of the skull.

Weird. And all three have their collars of their shirts pulled like halfway over their head like they were being cornholio. And what is that? Notch. And I guess maybe for blowback. Or dragging it? I don't know.

Well, there's also the gun shot is in the collar. So it was pulled over before the shooting happened. So I don't know if that is a way to stop the blowback is what I'm imagining. That's all I can think. So all three of them have been shot. The gun is a 38 special cult cobra. a six shot with a two-inch barrel. And these serial numbers are filed off of it.

I was stolen one. Nice. But they were able to, by the way, they don't find Detective Tate's service weapon. That's not his service weapon. So the serial numbers are filed off, but not very well, as we'll find out here. So, yeah, each of their collars. Those things are stamped in so deep. Yeah, on purpose, because so people can't easily file them off. It's very hard to file that off.

You got to get some equipment. Yeah. You really do. Each of them were shot once at the base of the skull and killed execution style, like we said. So missing from the scene are all three of the, or the wallets and two men's wallets and Joanna's purse are all missing. They weren't at the apartment either. Joanna's body, they find, has slight bruising in the genital area. and her panty hose were on wrong side out, wrong side out, inside out, and her belt was not looped through all the loops.

That's weird. So that's not a good thing. We'll find out about that. Now, the pistol is identified tentatively as the murder weapon, which is just pretty obvious. They have 38 holes in their head. There's a 38 there. Probably. The numbers filed off.

Didn't take it with them. It's probably the one. They were able to figure out the numbers, though, of the gun, the serial numbers. Now, the search is, they're still searching now even more frantically for Larry Price because now they know what happened to the other three. So, like, where the fuck is he? Yeah. He's willing to kill cops. Yeah, anything.

So they said one of the police people announced, quote, we have very little hope of finding him alive. Yeah. Either he's the murderer or he's probably dead too. Right. If he's not, he is. Exactly. Yeah. January 7th, 1981, the next day.

Wednesday. 9.20 p.m. Oh, man. There is a creek bed in Crawford County at a recreation area. Pretty rural. Pretty, got to know where it is. In that creek bed, they find the body of Larry Price. An anonymous, this is the wild part, too.

They found it because it's so rural. They weren't looking there. They found it because an anonymous caller called the sheriff's department and just said to search the recreation area. And then left? We just calls and the phone call. We have no idea. Yeah, and hung up, you know, and then walked away.

Yeah, that's it. I mean, so. Right? Who the fuck is doing that? And that's the major mystery. In this entire case, we never found out who made that fucking phone call. That's crazy. Which is crazy.

We don't know who made the phone call. Someone made the phone call and said that and his body is found. He has also shot exactly the same, close range, base of the skull, shirt pulled over his head. Yeah. It sounds like somebody that minds their own business but also doesn't want that person to just rot out here. Possibly. But yeah, somebody must have been told or something. So state medical examiner said that they probably, we'll find out, they figure out that he probably died after the other three, even though he was kidnapped well before.

They think from just what from the medical examiner thinks he was killed after. So figure out the math there. Now, there is a cab driver, because this is huge news locally. I mean, this is not only three people kidnapped and murdered, but a fourth, and he's a fucking detective who was actively investigating a case. That's crazy. That doesn't happen. No.

The detectives are, very few detectives get murdered on the job. Yeah. That's the good part about making detective. Now no one's going to shoot you while you fucking come up to their car. You know what I mean? Generally, you're putting bad guys in prison and, uh, and they, stay there for a long time. So you just have to present the evidence in court.

Yeah, you're not. When there's a liquor store robbery and they call the cops, you're not running there to stop the guy. Once everything's done and the crime scene's already set up, that's when you come in and start asking questions. But anybody dangerous is long gone usually with a detective, you know? And isn't it interesting? They're usually, the criminal is usually mad at the DA, not the cops.

Yeah, yeah. He's shooting birds at the judge or firebombing the DA's house. Well, it's one thing to, you know, make arrests and stuff like that, but it's another thing to go to court and tell everyone about it. That's the other thing. That's really, you know, you're going to come and just blow up my spot in front of a room full of people. It seems more invasive, I think, to be sat down in front of a room full of people with a guy literally judging you with a fucking gavel. Judging. And then be like that.

Yeah. Very interesting. So there's a taxi driver who says he picked up a man at the central mall at 5.20 p.m. And took him to the apartment complex. That would line up right. And especially if you took their car, you wouldn't have a car to get back. Right. So he said that, you know, that's what happened.

He said that the cab driver would try to identify his passenger in a photo, you know, lineup or whatever. he said, though, there was also several apartments in this complex and that this may have been coincidental. But it doesn't sound like it because the mall is where the car was found. Yeah. And so this doesn't sound coincidental. How many people left that mall to go back to that apartment complex? I mean, how many times do you do that usually?

You got about 30 of those a day or is that once every couple weeks you have to do that? What are we talking about? How many people in this apartment complex are relying on taxi cabs to get from the mall? To go to the mall. Yeah, that's weird. So the medical examiner findings, this is crazy here. They figure out that Larry most probably died after Joanna and Jolly Gentry and Detective Tate. They also said through thorough investigations of Joanna's body, there was evidence of both vaginal and anal rape.

Yeah. She was raped in both places there. The state later will say she was, they think it. was basically just minutes before she was shot. She was raped twice. What is that about? That's horrific. And she's the only one not tied up in that tire, too.

They concluded that Price may have died after the other victims, but also said nobody can determine the exact times of death except those who witnessed the death. They determined that Larry could have died anywhere between 8 a.m. and 7.30 p.m. on January 5th. and they estimate the time of death for the other victims sometime in the afternoon of January 5th, which we know that we know they were alive at 6 o'clock because they were pulling up to a police, to the apartment with a cop. So we know they were alive at 6. So we know that that's not correct.

Right. But we know that. Jesus, but Larry may have witnessed what happened to his wife. That's possible too. Or they may have been separate. Yeah. All right. Yeah.

Yeah. They said, Mr. Price most probably died after these people, which makes no sense because it makes all the sense in the world when we'll figure out the timeline of everything. It makes all the sense in the world that you would take Larry, go kill him, then come back for more. Where the hell did he stash Larry when he came back to kidnap the other three? Right. Did he have Larry with him? Like just tied up and, you know what I mean? In the trunk of the car or something?

Who knows? Yeah. He didn't have a car. He had to take a taxi because he dropped the LTD on. off at the mall. Right. He came back at five-something. Yeah.

You can't, and it was a single guy. He didn't have Larry with him. Yeah. Larry's got to be dead by now. He's got to be dead by now. Or stashed somewhere. This isn't like, you know, they're not the Gambino family. They don't have a fucking basement where they got a guy tied to a chair for the next.

It doesn't make sense. Unless he stole the car. He'd have Larry with him if he stole the car. Unless he left Larry in the trunk. Yeah. And they look, Larry wasn't in the trunk. Right. But, I mean, came back with the LT, with the cop car and then pulled him out of the trunk, maybe, and then did whatever.

Maybe. But either way, Larry would have been banging and screaming in that parking lot to get out of there. In a mall parking lot. Yeah. Yeah. No way. In a mall parking lot. Yeah. So it doesn't, yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

Where the fuck what he has stashed him? That's what's so weird. Now, this contradicted assumptions that he was killed first dumped in the recreation area and then the other victims were abducted then. That's what the cops figured because it's logical, but the medical evidence says that's not how it happened, which is super weird. But it was determined all the victims died of contact gunshots to the rear of the head with the direction being back to front, right to left, and slightly upwards in all four of them. So it's a right-handed guy. In each case, their outer garments were pulled up over their heads so the bullets passed through the material. the bullets retrieved from the heads of the victim were so mutilated that it was it was impossible to say for sure that they came from that gun, but they're pretty sure it came from that gun.

It matches up and it would make a lot of sense. So it's like 99% sure. Now, like I said, Joanna was raped both vaginally and anally as well as parts of her face had been eaten by an animal as well. Oh, from inside the tire? Yes. The eroded area included the eyelids, the nose with the cartilage there, the lips, and muscles on the face. Like something ate her face. They think it was probably the farmer's dogs that ate her face.

The hands of all the victims show bruising on the palms and around the wrists. Detective Tate had a large amount of bruising on his hands, indicative that there was some sort of of struggle to get out of the bindings that he was in, that he was in cuffs. The knuckles of his left hand were colored with yellow and orange bruises as well as the fingers and palms of his right hand.

And deep blackish purple bruises showed on his wrists where the handcuffs had been placed. He's been struggling. Yeah, he tried. Holly Gentry's right palm was covered in bluish purple bruises and his right thumb was heavily bruised. Grains of sand were seen

embedded between his right thumb and right forefinger. So it's very interesting here. They never find Detective Tate's badge and gun. Oh, they don't find that. Joanna's got a Timex wristwatch on that is stopped at 150. 150, which is very strange because we know she was alive at 150. She was making phone calls at 1.30, 3 o'clock, and then she's literally at a police station at 5 o'clock.

What time did they find her though? Maybe it died in the morning. Oh, that's true. They found her. Yeah, you're right, 3.14 p.m. So that could have happened 1.50 a.m. but she would have been long dead by then. Right.

Does it need to be wound every day? Is it one of those? I bet it does. I'm not sure. At time Xel, I'll bet it has to be wound. That's interesting. Now, Holly Gentry's watch was still going. It was still ticking.

But they estimate that those three bodies were killed after five in the afternoon on the 5th of January. Now, the guy in the bank, remember him? Right. Thomas Winford Simmons, who had the check. They go to his job on January 6th after the check thing because he had gone right to work after that and said, would you please come down to the police station to answer some questions about a check you tried to cash? It was drawn on the account of a murder victim. So, you know, we'd like to talk to you here.

And he said, sure, no problem. And he really has no choice because he's a parolee. So they can talk to him anytime they want. They can search him anytime they want. He has no rights, essentially. So they go out to the sand and gravel company, San, to interview Simmons. According to them, cooperative readily agrees, they go back. He wasn't at work on Monday, the murder day, which is something they know pretty heavily here.

Apparently, his foreman here got a call. This was the first day the plant had reopened. and they shut down for Christmas. Jesus, what place like this shuts down like an elementary school for Christmas? That's awesome. Damn, I hope they got paid too. So he said that his secretary came in and told him, hey, that guy, Thomas Simmons isn't going to come to work today.

And he said, why? And she said, well, he said he was in a car wreck and he wouldn't be able to come in until Tuesday. Okay. So this guy said, was he hurt? And they said, I don't think so. He said he'll be in tomorrow. So I don't know. Now, the foreman didn't want to have to replace Simmons because he was actually a good employee.

Yeah. He said he was one of the hardest workers he ever had on the job of shovel boy. Ever. Ever. He's the most. The best shovel boy you ever saw. The most impressive shovel boy in the history of shovel boys. If you're a grown man and your job has the title, your job title has the word boy in it, you have fucked your life up royally.

It's pretty bad for you. Royally. Yes. need to work harder. Yes. That means that job is supposed to go to a 16-year-old. That's what that means. That's meant for a boy. That's meant for a boy. So Simmons had only been employed since Thanksgiving, but he had a reputation for being like a tough guy and a tough worker. Once he was cleaning out from under the primary crusher and a large rock fell and hit him on the back, causing him to fall. And they were like, oh, Christ, he's going to be.

Yeah. He just said, I'm fine and went back to work. They were like, okay. So they had asked this guy, how's the new guy working out anyway? And he said, quote, tough as nails. He said the guy, Boulder fell on him. He got right back up. He said, quote, any other guy would still be in shock.

The other men couldn't believe it. They said he hopped up like nothing had happened. A lesser man wouldn't have been able to stand up for days. Lesser man. Or a man that doesn't need this job as bad. A man, yeah, a man who doesn't need this job to stay out of federal prison might. Yeah. So this guy said, yeah, they come and go pretty fast, usually these parolee workers, especially shovel boys. Yeah. Shuffle boy turnover is pretty high. Yeah. He said, well, the employment office routed me to a federal probation officer who was looking for a job for his guy who just got out of prison.

So, you know, we were both desperate pretty much is what he said. And he said the probation officer told me about Simmons. He'd been paroled and was staying with his sister and Kibler. And he said he needed to find him a job. He said, so I guess you needed a guy, you know, needed somebody and there you go. And the foreman said, yeah, it's a shitty little job. No two ways about it. The federal guy knew it too.

And he said, I'm glad that, you know, the Simmons guy's working out for you. I guess everybody deserves a second chance. So, hey, if he does good work, great. The foreman said, I've been taking him down to the Jenny Lynn store and having him try out one of those tuna fish sandwiches everybody loves so much. What? Everybody's – there's this new thing called tuna fish. It's great. It comes in a can.

It's amazing. They mix up pickles and mustard and mayo. They put it between bread blows people's minds. Did it take a while to get to Arkansas from the coast or something? what the hell are they talking about? So he said, he works so damn hard that I have to tell him he needs to take a break. Go smoke a cigarette every once in a while. Relax.

You can kill yourself out here. He said, we've had some heart-to-heart talks, and I like the guy. He deserves a chance to change his life. His sister thought so, too, and, you know, that's it. So he also says that, you know, this guy's a nice guy. He fried some fish up for his sister and her boyfriend at a fish fry up at Lake Fort Smith. So good guy. Fry and fish for my family.

Now, they talked to Simmons. They said, well, you got a check from Larry Price. You got some splainment to do here because Larry is missing. And he said, well, I encountered Larry Price on Sunday night, which would be the fourth. And the check he gave me, he gave me the check. And they said, why? Why did he give you this check for $350? Right.

And he said, well, I don't really want to say because I'm on parole. Oh. And they said, look, we don't, we're not caring about anything but dead people right. We're murder police. Don't give a shit about that. Your parole officer might give a shit about that, but not us. Right now, there ain't going to, nothing's going to happen. We just need to know what's going on.

Yeah. So he said, well, it was for, the check was for payment for some weed and quailudes, which there's, quailudes still existed back then. Yeah. So they were like, okay. And he said the check, you know, when he encountered Price at a later meeting later on that night on Sunday, Price had told him the check was bad. Oh. So the officers tell him that, well, now Larry Price is missing.

Simmons clammed right up, said, I'm not talking anymore. I want an attorney. Which for a guy who's been in the system, as we'll talk about, he knows once they start talking to you as a suspect, you ask for a fucking attorney and you shut the fuck up. So the officers then place him under arrest for a violation of his parole and cease their questioning and call a public defender to represent him. And we'll talk about this public defender because he's a, that's an interesting thing. For the drug charge? Because he said that, and he said he sold weed and quailudes. So they arrest him on a violation there.

Now, the detective says that they did not consider him a suspect in the murder's or. kidnapping when he was being escorted by officers from the arcola, ARK-H-O-L-A, ARK-H-O-L-A, ARCOLA, Sand and Gravel Company. They said they, when they were pulling him in, they had no thought of him as a suspect in the kidnappings and murders, which is a crock of shit. Yeah. They just say that because that way they don't have to read him his rights for a while, and they can get some preliminary shit out of the way before they read him as rights. but they absolutely thought of him as a suspect. You've got to.

Yeah. He was taken into custody before noon by 2.15 p.m., a neighbor of the prices tells police. Holy shit. He had seen a man in a similar description to Larry looking at the Ford LTT that they were selling. So this neighbor is nosy and looks out the window. Then at 2.30 p.m., Donald Seton, who works in. the Phoenix Village Mall parking lot. I don't know what the fuck he's working in a parking lot of a mall doing.

Parking cars, I guess? Who the fuck is valet at the mall besides Scottsdale? Nowhere in Arkansas has mall valet. No, not in rural Arkansas. A place where something called arc hole is. Arc hole. Can I park your pickup, sir? Thank you very much.

All right. Ain't nobody touching my truck, boy. Don't worry. I won't knock any of the mud off the flaps. I'll keep it real nice for you. Yeah. Nobody touching my truck, boy, while I go into Coles and get me something. So I'll go to Oshman's for new galoshes.

Oh, boy, I need them bad. He tells the officers that he observed a white male sitting in a yellow Toyota, which, by the way, Simmons has a yellow Toyota. Yeah. In a yellow Toyota, apparently watching Joanna Price's car. Oh. He went to the fucking mall to start. to stalk her. This guy took down the license plate,

same as the bank teller, and it turns out coming back to Thomas Simmons. Okay. Then at 245, Burle Price called the cops. Remember Burle Price had called the cops,

told police the check, which Simmons tried to retrieve, was written on his son's closed account, because they showed him the check after that from the bank, and he said the signature was forged as well. That's not my boy's signature. my boy's signature. Now, a little bit of history, because there's more. We're going to talk about a guy who saw some crazy shit. One of the neighbors saw someone, well, we'll describe it when you get there. Never mind. Okay. Now, a little history of Thomas Simmons. First of all, he's one of 11 children in rural Arkansas. Yeah. So that's never going to be good. A couple died, yeah? I would think so, just from rickets and scurvy or some shit, some weird preventable diseases. Some wild grass disease.

Yeah. He spent the most of his adult life in prison. He's from Hot Springs. He'd been living in Kibler for about two and a half months before the murders. He had moved in with his sister after being paroled in October of 1979. Nice. After serving part of a 20 year term for assaulting a federal agent. Oh. 20 years. That's what he was on parole for then, but there was more shit, too, before that. When he was 16, he was arrested in 1960 for stealing cars in Hot Springs. Started early. So picture him, greaser, the fucking, you know, that look, this was 1960.

So like Greece is set in 1959. So I picture him doing like that, you know, looking like that stealing cars. Right. Or as they call it boosting, probably. Boosting, yeah. Boosting. He was boosting to hop it up, paint it all black. and hop it up.

Put some new, what the hell they go? Put some new rings in it. That's what Travolta's always talking about that movie. So, which does that thing, by the way. No,

no. He's just, that stuck in my head of him talking about rings. I don't know why. So August of 62, he was sentenced to six months in prison on a Texas conviction of theft by a bailee.

So he was on bail and he stole something. He also, serves a one-year sentence in 1963 in McAllister, Oklahoma for an assault with intent to commit a felony, which sounds like going to rape a chick. Or that, yeah.

That's what that sounds like. That was after he had joined the Air Force in 1960, after his auto theft arrest, he went and joined the Air Force, but was discharged for bad conduct in 1961. So they said, the military will fit, you know, it'll

straighten this punk out, just like they used to say back some punk kid will put him in the army. They said, nope, he's too much of an asshole for us to. He's already so far gone, we can't fix it. He's broken. Yeah. He'd been arrested. Can't make push-ups get it out of him.

He won't even do push-ups. We can't make him. How do you do it? He's been arrested twice in Amarillo, they said, and served six months for each crime of theft and arrested a couple times in Oklahoma City for attempted robbery with a firearm and assault. Jesus Christ. He's done enough to get a 30-year sentence already. Already, and he's still young.

And along the way, he's a real catch. Somebody just had to sink their hooks into him, and he gets married somewhere in there and has some kids, too. Because also, we need his genetics persisting. A fucking skinny bald guy with a skinny bald ugly guy who's a fucking career arch-criminal. We need him to reproduce. He really big. He was a shovel boy in his late 30s.

A shovel boy. Wow. He was unable to find jobs other than cooking or dishwashing or, you know, things like that. I'm telling you, the kitchen is where anybody can get a job. It's great. Kitchen or sand and gravel. One or the two. Yeah, shoveling or a kitchen. You can either wash dishes or shovel this sand. He never stayed at a job for more than a couple of months. In 1965, he was sentenced to two years in Cummins Prison near Pine Bluff, Arkansas, for forgery and uttering. what is that?

He said some shit that wasn't right, apparently. Yeah. Utering. A cow's titties? Yeah, that's it. He was getting down there, really. Really. I just pictured him laying under a cow,

just being like, is that uttering? Like when you put your mouth under the slurping machine? I picture him, I pictured him hitting it like a speed bag while he laid there. Or he could be double uttering. He could be double milking into his mouth. He looks like a

Porn star afterwards. Just Bukakied all over his fucking head afterwards. It's really. Is that uttering? But loving it just being on the ground

being like, yeah. That's how he got caught. It was the screams of passion. Yeah. It caught him. People were like, Fargo.

The hell's going out there. It was the, I hear a boy, yelling and yelling with joy and gargling. I don't know what's going on. I think that's, I think that screams of joy

through unpasteurized milk. That sounds like unpasteurized ecstasy to me. I'm not positive, but I mean, I'm no doctor or nothing, but seems like it. Yeah. So uttering. Poor joy. 98% fat. Man. So he's paroled in January of 1967.

Then he was returned to that prison in July of 67 on a new three-year sentence of forgery and more uttering. He's been uttering again. He keeps uttering. He was paroled in July of 69 and was returned to the prison again in November of 70 for violation of parole. God damn. The violation of his parole

was also a crime that he'll be sentenced to as well. In September of 1970, he and his wife and three children drove to Little Rock. Three. He needs three kids. This fucking guy. Three. There is three people with this

dipshit's genetics rolling and fucking just screaming through their veins, man. Oh my God. Who for the last 10 years has been out of prison long enough to fuck three times and that's it. Barely enough to not pull out three times. Barely. I mean, close. So they end up checking into a motel for the night, left the wife and kids in the motel while he tried to go out and rob a few places.

Wow. He's really learned his last trip. No luck with the robbery. So the next day, he took his family to the Salvation Army. to stay while he slept in his car. I did not know the Salvation Army had like quarters. Barracks? Yeah.

Could you just donate? I know you can give them like old coats. Can you give them like your wife and kids and say put these out in the showroom for a while? Put these up also. Yeah, just put, I'll come back and get them. Don't worry. It's like a consignment thing or what? I mean, I have heard that that was a thing that people did stay at the Salvation Army.

But every time I've ever. What is it? It was like the YMCA. Yeah. It's kind of like that. But every one that I've ever seen was just like a secondhand store. There was no. It's just goodwill.

Yeah. Yeah. Essentially that. Goodwill with an army slant. That's all it is. And I guess that makes sense why there's a more green shit than normal. Yeah. I guess that makes sense why there's a fake Santa out front of places paying for shit because

what the fuck else do you need all that money for? You got a storefront for Christ's sake. Yeah. Here, take care of my wife and three kids for a minute. So he slept in the car. And on the sixth. of September, he robbed a gas station on West 3rd and kidnapped a 17-year-old boy in the process. Why?

Gary Waila, who was working there. So rather than, you know, be identified by him, he said, I'll just take him with me. He put a knife to his ribs and ordered him to sit on the floorboard with his head between his knees, his own knees, like sit down there on the floorboard. He was intending to let the boy off somewhere, apparently, but everywhere. he looked, there was cops all over the place. So, instead, he drives from miles into Saline County where he spotted a wooded area. Yeah.

He forced the boy out of the car and tied him up with a piece of cloth he'd torn from one of his own kids' clothing. He tore up a fucking onesie so he could tie up a goddamn 17-year-old gas station clerk, which is insane. he then stabbed him several times with a hunting knife. Oh, fuck. Moving it back and forth until he felt that the boy had bled enough to die. He'll probably, he's bleeding pretty good, he'll probably die out here. So then he grabbed his hair, pulled his head back, and slid his throat, too, this young man, the 17, who, for the, the egregious, the egregious fucking action of working at a gas station. and this is what he deserves.

This is crazy. So he left the boy for dead, covered him up with leaves, all of this for $80. Oh, Lord. 80. Somehow the boy survived. Wow.

Being stabbed many times with a hunting knife and having his throat slit. He survived. And jiggled back and forth. Yeah. He survived, dug himself out of the leaves, and somehow stumbled

until he found somebody and got help. Oh, man. Which is the war that's almost worse than killing him because now he definitely knows who you are and he can tell you tell the court all the horrible things he's done to you. And the scars that you're going to have from that, you're never going to forget this piece of shit. Some poor 17 year old kid up on the stand talking about just trying to work my shift and oh, I'm saving up for a car. Yeah. Saving up to marry my girl, you know what I mean? Or whatever the fuck they would save up for in 1970.

So yeah. He got 45 years for that, which based on his history. Yeah. Yeah, based on his history, that sounds like a right sentence. Yeah. You have escalated to the point of now you're hurting people. You're not just stealing things anymore. Now you're trying to kill people.

As far as you know, you've murdered. Yeah, that's the thing. He must have shit when he figured out that kid was alive. Oh, my God. How? Nine years later, he's out of prison. Absolutely. And the prosecuting attorney was a guy named Jim Guy Tucker, who later became the governor of Arkansas before Bill Clinton.

And he wrote the parole board that Simmons was vicious and shouldn't be set free. He's a particularly vicious asshole. Keep him as long as possible. So he was convicted of that in 1971. It was kidnapping. Wow. So that's when he gets you, sir. May fuck off 45 years. Okay.

He was held until May 3rd, 1979. Eight years. Which is 20% of his sentence. Yeah. At which time he was released. Now, he was released to the U.S. Marshal's Service so he could serve a 20-year sentence at Leavenworth for assaulting a federal officer. Okay. Somehow he was paroled 17 months later.

Holy shit. Which is how he ends up in October of 1980 in living in Kibler with his sister. So he got 65 years total, state and federal, and he did about 10 in change at a 65. That is wild. Wow. That's crazy. And he was only out three months before this quadruple murder that they're suspecting him of here. That's crazy.

Crazy that they paroled him and then transferred him to the federal prison. They're like, that ought to be okay. And the kingly sum of $350, $50 up front, waiting on the other 300 to clear. I mean, for 85, he'll fucking carve a boy up. So he does not care. By the way, the FBI agent he assaulted. He also stole his car. Nice.

He assaulted an FBI agent and stole his car, which is fucking crazy. So he's paroled for good behavior. How good do you got to be? You got to be a... He blew all the guards. Like, you have to be the best... He went out and painted the fucking prison. Yeah.

He scrubs the fucking floors with his toothbrush. He's incredible. They call him steel jaw around here. He never gets a cramp. We know he's a hard worker, though. That's the thing. So if he goes into prison and if he's in a situation where he has to do well, he does well. He's a hard worker.

They might have said, oh, look at this kid. He's really trying. But no. That's a bummer about prison, though. You're not allowed to have shovel. No, they don't give you any shovels. So his sister let him live with her and her kids because he's going to be a great influence and, you know, an excellent father figure, I would say. We know no word on whether he ever saw his kids again.

Right. If that woman was smart, she fucking ran away and never looked back at this asshole. He was only out for three months. Yeah, it's crazy. So by the end of October, he'd gotten a job, bought a car, but the job at the plant at the, you know, sand place. was closed for Christmas, and he was running short on money, and he had some checks out that were going to bounce. He had taken classes while he was in Leavenworth, and he'd already enrolled for the spring

semester at Westark. Remember we talked about Westark? That was supposed to start in January 81, but he couldn't pay the tuition, so he didn't do it. Okay. Now, what he says about the check here. All right. He tells them this is a check he received for weed and quailudes, like we said.

So they said, all right, let's run through your thing. Where have you been? He said, well, on the fifth, the day of the murder at 10.30 a.m. He was at the bank, which we know of by the bank, depositing a $350 check, asking for $50 cash back on Larry Price's account. Then the taxi driver picks up a man matching his description in front of the Osco drug at the Central Mall. And then a short while later, one of the neighbors at the apartment complex sees a man fitting his description. get out of a cab in front of Price's apartment.

That's pretty good. At 8.30 p.m., he made a call, okay, that night. That was half hour after the search had started for everybody. He was in, at 8.30, he stopped at a convenience store in Van Buren and called his sister for a ride from there. And she said, why don't you be driving your car? And he said, that's a long story. Yeah. And so that was that.

Now, January 6th, 1981 at 9 a.m., he goes into the bank. Obviously, they tell him he wants to check back. They said it's going to be until Friday. They write his number down, and there we go. Now, January 8th, 81, now they're starting to get evidence in, and we'll talk about this. What they think here is that he didn't expect the wife to be home. He expected, basically, Larry would be home. He'd inquire about the car.

As we find out, he already had a buyer for the car, a stolen car buyer. He already had somebody that was waiting on this car for him. He said, I'm going to go steal this LTD, basically. So when he showed up in the morning to look at the car and get coffee with Larry, she came out of the bedroom and he was like, fuck. Fuck, because when he showed up, he knocked on the door, he said, let's go for a test drive. No problem.

They went for a test drive, came back, and now all of a sudden there's a woman in the house. Oh, no. So he's like, fuck. He thought he was just going to rob this guy, take this. car. Maybe kill him. Who knows, but whatever. But there's a guy who's, he had already promised him 1,500 cash if he delivered it to him on Monday afternoon, this car. Yeah.

So he thought that everything would go well and turns out now there's extra people and he can't figure it out. Then a witness comes forward. That is the craziest witness of all time. And he go, well, why the fuck didn't he do this the day this is happening? One of the apartment complex neighbors. and it's because he didn't want to come forward sooner because he had a warrant. Uh-oh. So the warrant kept him from calling the cops and telling them what he saw, which was the thing that explains everything pretty much.

He first went to his lawyer. By the way, this guy, Davis is his name, not to be confused with Detective Davis, who went looking for Ray Tate. This Davis guy, James Davis, his lawyer who he called. to say, should I come forward with this information, will I get arrested, happens to be the same lawyer that has been assigned to Thomas Simmons. Oh, no. Small town. Yeah.

So now they have the same lawyer. So Davis, the neighbor, came to the lawyer, whose name is Settle. That's his name, his last name, and related the story saying that, you know, this is what happened, what I saw. And he said, you've got to tell the cops. You have to. And then in a couple of weeks, I'm going to be really fucked on cross-examine. That's the thing. He thought about it.

And he said he didn't know whether he could continue to represent Simmons in view of the fact that his other client is now going to be on the record and all this type of shit. And I have to fucking, I'm going to have to cross-examine him. And he's my client. So that's not right. So they said James Davis, the neighbor across the street, saw a. man who appeared to be Officer Tate, Detective Tate, arrive at the Price's apartment complex in a blue unmarked car. He saw it.

Yeah. The man looked briefly at the truck. Holly Gentry's large truck was parked in front there, sideways in front of taking up two spaces. Uh-huh. Because it's his complex. He can do it. So the cop didn't like that at first. So he was looking at the car.

Well, he had heard that this guy had one of these cars. So he was just looking, okay, that's that car. So that's what's going on. Cop, presumably Detective Tate, looking at a car, then going into the apartment complex. Shortly after that, a different man, not Detective Tate, made three trips from the apartment to the blue car. Tate's car. To the cop car. Different guy.

Yeah. The first time, it's what he brings out to the car. That's the crazy part. The first time he brought out a man whose hands were tied behind his back and made him get into. the car. Someone is watching this and not calling anybody, by the way, for days. What? He could have called the cops right then and saved everybody's life.

But this fucking guy was like, I got a warrant, you know. Okay. He saw a detective with his badge on his waist and a gun and all that shit. He didn't know it was a cop. No, no, no. He didn't know it was a cop going in the door. Later on, he assumes that's who it was based on the facts, but he just saw a guy go in with a blue car and go into the thing. But even still, he saw a man come out handcuffed. Or he assumed sport coat

and tie. Yeah. You know. And then he sees a different man go to the car with a man tied up, a man with his hands tied behind his back. So he brings out him getting in the car. Next, he brought out another man also tied or hands behind the back and put them in the car. Then he brings out a crying woman and forces her into the car. Oh, my God. And drives away. And this guy went, well, Price's Right is on and fucking went back to what he was doing.

Well, that ramen only takes three minutes. I better really get in there. That's what this guy saw and didn't come forward until the eighth. That's what warrants will do, huh? Wow. Holy shit. I wouldn't even think about that for a minute. I'd be like, holy shit.

Do it anonymously. Either, I would think maybe this will get this warrant washed away. I'm going to be a fucking hero. Yeah, you can't send me back, send me to jail now. I'm a hero. Amazing. Now, by the way, scientific evidence, a hair from Simmons body was discovered on in Officer Tate's shirt. So they got to be pretty close to each other for it to get inside of his shirt.

And another hair from Simmons body was found on Larry Price's sock. So that connects him. I mean, this is not DNA, by the way. Back then, this was microscopically similar, consistent with. So we have no idea if it's his hair or not, but it's a hair that. that matches the deal there. And they found out that semen that they got from Joanna's vagina, which sounds like the worst porn movie of all time.

This matched Simmons blood type, but not Larry's blood type. So not like they can't, the defense can't say, well, she had sex with her husband that morning. No, she didn't. Now, they can't match this definitively to Simmons because it's only by blood type, but it's not hers, obviously, and it ain't fucking Larry's. Yeah. So, and they have this, it's type O, which is the same as Simmons.

So there you go. Now there's blood as well here. There's blood, blood found on Simmons work pants that he was wearing at work. They just wore his work outfit could be matched to the blood types of both Larry and Joanna, because they're both the same type, which is. type A, which is about 40% of human beings are type A. But they said that the only conclusion could be formed from the test was that the stain did not come from Simmons, who is type O. So he didn't bleed on his own pants.

This is someone else's blood on his pants that matches the same blood type as victims that he has. And speaking of type O, the, like I said, semen sample is type O, which is her and which is him. Now, handwriting as well, an FBI handwriting specialist concluded that the, handwriting on the check drawn on Larry's account was that of Thomas Simmons as well. He wrote it out. Now the gun here

that they found under the bodies that they believe is the murder weapon, they go, well, where the hell that come from? They figured out the serial number and figured out it was purchased by a guy named John Neil Bryant in 1976 in Van Buren, which is the town next to us. We've done Van Buren as a town.

He said it was either, he couldn't remember if it was lost in the woods or stolen from his pickup truck, but he thought it was sometime around 1978. That happened. We're so loose with weapons. And he's a neighbor of Simmons, by the way. So he could have lost it in the woods and Simmons could have picked it up. We don't know.

Or stolen under his truck. Either way. Well, he was in prison during 78. So it makes sense that he lost it in the woods and then he picked it up because he couldn't have been there in 78 because he was in prison. Now, in other testimony later on, an investigator at the state crime labs, say bullets recovered from the victims were officially too mutilated to make an accurate link to the 38, but they said that they could neither verify or rule out the possibility that they came from the

recovered gun. But logically, a jury's going to look at that and go, I'm going to, the body's on the gun, I'll throw them all in one place. You know, it doesn't make sense otherwise. So he is arraigned on four counts of kidnapping, four counts of murder. Now, they send him for a competency examination, first of all. all right away. Okay.

He gets sent for a few days and gets returned back to his cell. When he gets returned back to his cell, there was a deputy sheriff who made the transfer and they asked him, you know, did it go okay? Was he crazy? Was he, you know, drooling and fucking insane? And he said, quote, he didn't say anything and I didn't have anything to say to him. That's that. So will he be competent?

Well, they expect to receive a written report in a couple of days. However, one local official said that basically he's probably going to be found fit to stand trial. He said, quote, I've never known of them to send one back that have been determined mentally unable to stand trial. So they sent him back to jail, which means he's probably fine. He's going. He's going. Now, the competency results, Dr. A. F. Rosendale, who's the psychiatrist, wrote that Simmons was found to be without psychosis, but does exhibit antisocial behavior. I would call raping and slitting throats and murdering cops.

Slightly antisocial behavior. Copies of the findings are sent to the prosecutor. The evaluation said he's probably not suffering from mental disease or defect of such a degree as to make him unable to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to conform his conduct to the requirement of the law. So they literally took that copy pasted from a law book of what they have to be and said that's what he is. The findings also concluded that he has mental capacity to understand the proceedings against him and has capacity to assist effectively in his own defense. Therefore, he is considered fit to proceed at this time. Great.

Very good. So they want to change a venue. Do that? Yeah, because they're like, everybody's heard about this. This is a small town, and he killed a fucking cop and raped a chick. It's not good. It's bad. And the thing is, it came on the heels.

of an unconnected series of murders in the immediate area. There were four separate capital murder trials pending in Fort Smith or Van Buren. So this little tiny area had five death penalty eligible murders at the same exact time. Fascinating. Which is it's got to be the water or something. Overwhelming. That's insane. You can't try that, right?

That's wild. It has to be environmental or some shit. Like, I don't know what's going on, right? There has to be like a, I don't know. Maybe it's like Widows Bay. Like it's like the island that's doing it. I don't know what's just. Sucking in evil.

The area just like wants to be fed. I don't know what it is. So local citizens here, they say, were appalled by what appeared to be a reign of violence unprecedented in this century because this is a small area. They don't have this. One editorial on a TV station on January 7th worried that, quote, this most recent in a series of violent killings has raised concern about the quality of life

in Western Arkansas. That's what it took to raise your concern about quality of life in Western Arkansas. You didn't look around? Yeah. And go, Jesus, this is shit. What are we... What fuck are we doing here, guys? We're in a lot of trouble here.

Tornado season just ended, too. That's a bad time of life, too. And at least nobody was robbing us Well, a tornado was going on. So that was actually safer for a minute there. So they had a bunch of man-on-the-street interviews, a gun dealer whose business had increased substantially in the last year. Yeah. He said that enforcement of the death penalty is, quote, the only way to stop violent crime and make the street safe again, which we know mathematically is a huge load of horseshit now.

Well, that and selling a shitload of guns. Yeah. So you should buy more and then shoot people with them. And then get the death penalty for all I care. A mom already paid. It's all right. For all I give a shit. Look at states with death penalties and compare them to murder rates and they're the highest

ones, all of them. It makes no difference. It doesn't fucking matter. It's just the way it is. So that's not, when someone's killing someone, they're not thinking, ooh, I better not do this because I could get the death penalty. Life without, that would have been fine. I'm totally cool with that.

But I'm afraid of needles. Like, no one says that. It's not the way it works. They say, I'm going to get away with it. Every time. That's what it is. They don't plan on getting caught. Yeah.

And if they didn't mind getting caught, they didn't give a fuck then. They don't care what happens to them. So a people poll, it was quote unquote, aired on January 9th on KLMN TV and said, quote, this is some of the comments, we ought to have more capital punishment. Yeah. Not enough murders are being solved. What does that have to do with? capital punishment. Nothing. We got to kill more people because they're killing a lot of people.

We won't be able to find them unless we can kill them. It doesn't make any sense. So solving and the convicting are two separate things completely. And the murders aren't being solved because you have no scientific shit to go on. Yeah, but you're not rewarding the DNA. Yeah. You don't have phones to, you know. You're not rewarding the detectives, James, with the ability to just go in there and mow them down.

Yeah, not even a punishment. Just do it. And then they said, something should be done about keeping these people in prison and also judges are too lenient. So just whatever horse shit they heard from some idiot who never didn't read the paper either while they talked or sat and talked over the grits. I certainly agree that this man should not have been out of prison. I don't know how in the fuck they did this. This is what I mean. This is a crazy case.

This feels like they blew it. Yeah, a Fort Smith police department major who was involved in the investigation was quoted in a statewide newspaper saying, quote, we've lost two police officers in the last four years. If we don't get something done and kill some of the people for kill and others, the whole society is doomed. It was a tragic, senseless execution style killing by a very ruthless individual who had been serving time. So also, they said that immediately upon his arrest, the news reported extensively of his prior criminal convictions, which pollutes the jury pool. The Arkansas Gazette articles of January 7 through 9th described his extensive criminal record, including his 1960 juvenile arrest, which is where I got all that shit from. I found all that in those papers based on these court documents. I was like, let me look that up.

There we go. Now I got some background. a bad conduct discharge from the Air Force and convictions for large larceny forgery, kidnapping, assault, uttering, as we know. The fact that he was a recent federal parolee emphasized, was emphasized in virtually every article. There's a shitload of him. Several media sources remarked on the parallels between this case and the 1977 of Fort Smith police officer Randy Baznet, who was killed by a former federal inmate. about a week after the inmates release on parole. So to them, it all fits together.

He said this was a particular sore spot with local citizens who felt the parole system was not effective. The views of the police officers, prosecutors, and others were prominently aired, is what he's saying to try to get this change of venue. One, the Fort Smith chief of police said, the state's handing out paroles left and right. And that's what we got.

Dead cops, James, because we... Dead cops have cops lives. more than anybody else's. That's right. Otherwise, kill everybody else, though. Kill them all. Now, wow, trial comes around.

Yeah. Okay. He says I'm innocent as a young, just a young, brand new baby boy. And so I just came, like I'm still covered in fucking placenta. Just a tiny little shovel boy.

That's it. Just a tiny little shovel boy. Now, defense opening, during the opening statement, public defender John Settle, who decided to stay on the case. He decided that it wasn't a conflict of interest to have to cross-examine one of his clients in this case, which is crazy. His strategy is he admits that his client was at the Price apartment and stole a check. But that's he said, that's all he did.

That's the extent of his wrongdoing. That's it. He's not involved in these murders at all. He said, we do not know what happened to these people January 5th, and we do not intend to try to solve this. But we do know Thomas Simmons is not guilty of kidnapping and murdering these people. Well, you better fucking solve it because you're in an OJ situation where it's like, we're all going to think you do it unless it's solved a different way. There's no, it's just the way it is. So, and then they talk about him not thinking he's a suspect as well.

They said, you know, when the cops brought him in, it's bullshit that they didn't think he was a suspect. that's ridiculous. Yeah. They said their client has always been a suspect and was by technical definition under arrest from the time they placed him in the squad car. So quoting from a statute book, the public defender stated that a person under arrest at the time he is placed under restraint or submits to custody. But they're saying, no, no, no, we asked him to come to the station and he voluntarily came down. We were just chit-chatting. But did they put him in cuffs because he's saying he was in restraints?

No, no, no. They said is placed under restraint or submits to custody. Got it. But they're saying submitting to custody, the prosecution says, submitting to custody doesn't mean being asked to go somewhere voluntarily and you going. That's not cut. Them saying, you have to come. Let's go.

That's custody. So he also added that the Fort Smith officers who detained him had no jurisdiction in either in any of the places they were in, where the check was tendered. Van Buren or Jenny Lind, which is an area, a town, Jenny Lind. Okay. So the witnesses, they bring up old James Davis there, the guy whose lawyer has a conflict of interest. Yeah, he said he then picked out Thomas Simmons and said, that's the guy I saw lead three persons from the apartment to the car.

Why did you wait to report it? He said, well, you know, I had criminal charges against me and a warrant. You know how it is, you know. I'm dumb. So, I'm dumb. On cross-examination, by the way, because he's a prosecution witness. Now, his own lawyer's got to come up and rip him a new asshole. Yeah.

So on cross-examination, he tries to discredit Davis' memory of the incident by pointing to several discrepancies between his courtroom testimony and earlier sworn statements. The cross-examination, by the way, he was really aggressive on this cross-examination. The cross-examination sparked repeated objections from the prosecution and numerous sidebar conferences to figure out, you know, what line of questioning they can do. They have another ID witness, Ernie Kramer's, who identified Simmons as the man he observed with Larry Price on January 5th looking at the car. The defense challenged the accuracy of Kramer's identification due to the brevity of the brevity of his observation of the two men. but the car is pretty clear. You're going to see that and see the two guys and two and two. So the medical examiner does a mock recreation of the scene by basically throwing a coat over the prosecutor's shoulders and pulling it up over his head to show him how these people were taken and then shot.

And then trace the path of the bullet on that way too, which the juries fucking love those demonstrations. They love those things. It makes everything so much clear. Under cross-examination, the medical examiner stated that based on the evidence, proof positive of a rape is not possible. But the fact that she has some other person semen in her and had looped her belt just fine and probably put her panty hose on correctly before she was kidnapped, we have to assume the kidnapper did this.

So that's just logic. Then there's a crazy fucking delay in the trial. Why? The jury is waiting for his sister. Thomas's sister is going to testify. The one that let him stay with her. The ones who stay, exactly, the one who's staying with him. And apparently, it's her day to testify.

She never takes the stand because she collapsed at the foot of the stairs at her house, or had to collapse at the foot of the stairs from the Crawford County Courthouse when she arrived. Yeah. And then her doctor said she would not be able to return that afternoon. Oh. So the prosecutor said, well, she'll be there on Friday because she failed to appear. So they said that they sent the sheriff to go get her. And when he arrived at her house, she wasn't home.

So after that information was relayed back to the courthouse, there was a conference called between everybody where it was revealed that she was at the home of a family friend. When the sheriff gets to the family friend's house to take her to court, she wouldn't go. She refuses to go. The sheriff said he was greeted by her brother, Ron, who just refused to allow Ron Simmons, by the way, like the old wrestler, first black heavyweight champion in NWA history. Ron Simmons, who flatly refused to allow his sister to go to the courthouse due to her medical condition. He said she's in the house and to get her, you better bring a stretcher. What does she have? She has a heart condition or something?

We have no idea. She just collapsed. Gora phobia? medical condition. She has, I don't want to testify against my brotheritis, I think is what it is. She's allergic to this. Yeah. According to Ball here, the detective, they, Ron Simmons then threatened to sue both him and

the others in his car if any further action is taken. Who you got in there with you? I'll sue them too. Okay. Anybody in the car. Wow. So the sister had been expected to take the stand and tell of a collector, sister-in-law, this is, until of a collect phone call she received.

that night. So it is her sister, sorry, the night of the murders to ask for a ride home from the convenience store. The call came from a

location close to where Ray Tate's car was found. They came up with a solution, which is the state would simply read a series of facts

that all the attorneys could agree on. She's going to say this and this. Do you both stipulate to that? Fine. Then just put it

in the fucking record. Well, she doesn't have to testify if we all agree to it. If we all agree to the, yeah,

we'll take a little bit off the edges. that someone might have objected to and take the core of it and just put it in. That's it. They said, if they would have not

stipulated to the facts, then she would have had to testify. Now, closing arguments, the defense attorney tells the jurors, quote, the only conclusion you can draw from this testimony was that it is a fabrication,

meaning the James Davis testimony, where he saw him leading people to the car. The only conclusion you can draw from his testimony is that it was a fabrication, from beginning to end. It was not a matter of being mistaken. James Davis just flat out lied.

Really? That's his lawyer saying that. Okay. Also a newspaper account of both closing says, quote, both prosecutor Ron Fields and public defender John Settle admitted in their summations that many of the bizarre circumstances

surrounding the murders often termed as the most sensational North, often termed as the most sensational in northwest Arkansas history are still unexplained. So basically, there's a lot of shit we don't know. But we're pretty sure about A, B, and C. So the verdict comes in and it is five, or seven man, five woman jury. That's what we got going on here. Less than three hours of deliberation.

Is this three charges of murder? This is four. Four murders, kidnapping. You name it. This is bad, bad, bad. Oh, this is, death penalty is on the table. For sure. Absolutely.

He killed a cop and raped a woman in the course of killing her. And then robbed people while they killed while he killed him too. This is every aggravator you can find. While on parole. While on parole. Yeah. Wanted horrible shit. It's fucking aggravators based on, you know.

Well on parole for 65 years worth of charges. Yeah. This is bad. That dude should not have been jaywalking. No. Honestly. He should have been fucking keeping it between the lines 10 and 2 the whole time. So the verdict comes in less than three hours of deliberation. And he's found guilty of every goddamn thing possible that you can imagine.

Just guilty of everything. So now the sentencing comes around. And like I said, death penalty is here. Firmly square. Yeah. During this death penalty thing here, prosecution's clothing, not clothing, clothing. Their clothing was beautiful. Their clothing, they were dressed immaculately, Jimmy, the ties on these men.

Fabulous. D&G. So, oh, yeah, the best. Well, one prefers Gucci. He's a little flashier. Yeah. Following the return of the guilty verdict here, that's when the jury was immediately pressed to return and, you know, debate about the sentence. So in the arguments, the prosecutor said Simmons sealed his own fate when he committed the crimes.

He said, he's the one who executed himself out in that field. and Kibler and in that creek in Clear Creek. He executed himself. So, does he have anything to say for himself? Is he going to talk? He is going to talk. He stood there and gave a poker face when the judge said, what do you want to say? And he said,

quote, on January 8th, I stood in this courtroom and said, I was not guilty. And I repeat now, I am not guilty. Sir, that's what he said when he's been found guilty of murdering a cop in cold blood on duty and raping and killing a woman. And anally, too. Throw that in for a little fucking, you know, just a little extra. For some extra fuck Jesus stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. And two other men who just, he was robbing. So this is a hundred percent anti-sociital behavior. Yeah. Yeah. So after an hour and a half of deliberation, which is barely enough time to fill. out the paperwork for this such type of thing here.

The jury comes back and says, you, sir, may fuck off death by electrocution. Electric chair. Electric chair for you. And then, so he's got four of those, four death sentences, and then an additional this

and an additional that and years tacked on to this and you name it. I mean, it's a lot. He won't live that long. So, well, we'll talk about it. So the reactions here from the victim families. One of them said here, we're just so relieved while they were crying and all that kind of thing. And Mrs. Price, this is Larry's mother, said they treat the defendant like a person, but what about the victim? We should have, we would have loved to have gotten up and told that jury about our kids.

We had such dreams and aspirations for those kids. They would have been such an asset to our society. And, yeah, she said that the victim seemed almost unimportant to the case, which isn't really true. I mean, it's just the reason we're here. Yeah, exactly. We're just concentrating on what are we going to do with this guy, so it's got to kind of be about him. A close friend to the Gentry family who admitted he wrestled with the decision to even attend the trial said he'd never be the same after the loss of Holly Gentry. He said, it affects you more than you realize it will. It changes your priorities.

Yeah. And then he talks about the Lord a whole bunch. I'll skip that. Then Simmons leaves the court and he's led to the car to be taken to prison, right? Somehow, now they take them like out through a private thing and they put them at the Sally Port there. They do all that. Back then they just take them out the front door of the court to like the parking lot and all the press would be around them and they would. Walk down these super steep steps. Stone too. Yeah. Don't trip over all those cords or anything. All those. Camber cords he used to have. Cuffed branch back. Exactly. Yeah. They said Simmons appeared to be in good spirits as he was led from the Sebastian County jail, shackled in handcuffs and leg irons for his transfer to death row.

And leg irons. Oh, and leg irons. Shallow. Oh, he's a death row prisoner. Oh, very shallow. He vowed he would return to face a new trial as the officials ready. He said, I will, this will get overturned and I'm going to have a new trial soon. worry about it. He said, this is during a little press conference out in the parking lot he had,

that he was confident that his conviction would be reversed and he would be granted a new trial. Wow. He said, we'll have to do it all over again. I'll be back. Okay. Yep. He praised his defense attorneys, which that'll come up later in appeals. Oh. Well, they won't be so great then. But at the time, he praised them. He said, John Settle and Garner Taylor. He said, I am satisfied with the effort of my attorneys, I think they did a magnificent job. Really? Which will then be, you know, piss poor, ineffective assistance of counsel in a future appeal. Simmons said he did not regret his decision not to take the stand in his own defense when asked about it.

Because speculation kept mounting, but he said the final decision was reached jointly by him and his attorneys. They asked him, do you think you got a fair trial in Crawford County? He says, absolutely not. No, well. He said the prosecution was allowed to introduce evidence in their case against him that would be struck, that should have been struck from the trial and asked what he believed to be the most damaging evidence introduced about him, because there's so much. I mean, what one piece was the crux? He said, quote, I hesitate to call it evidence, but the most damaging thing was the obviously perjured testimony of the state's key witness. which is James Davis.

The guy that saw me. Meanwhile, there's like five other people, the cab driver, the other one who saw him going in and out. This is just the guy who happened to watch them walk people out. I mean, we didn't need him to put this together of what happened, you know? So, because the crazy thing is, I guess the detective walked into the apartment, I assume. He probably hid and then popped out with a gun, and that's how he subdued the detective is all I can imagine.

There's no other way. You have to, yeah. There's no other way. The cop had like his flashlight out and he was looking around. Yeah, probably. He probably popped out from behind a door, put a gun to his head and said, fucking stand still, motherfucker, took his gun from him and whatever. And we don't know what he did with his badge, his gun, any of that shit.

None of it. We had no idea. Never, never recovered. He later said he was referring to James Davis. And here's an interview with a, what I like to call a pompous douche of a juror. Yeah. This guy. He says he wouldn't take the money.

jury duty pays. It's his civic duty. I won't even take that. It was like a $53 check for like two weeks. I don't even cash it. Won't even take it. I returned it to them because I'm that good of a citizen. Fucking shut up and take your 50 bucks and take your goddamn wife out to dinner, you asshole.

What is fucking asshole? This guy, Robert Roberts, he never had a chance. His parents are so stupid they forgot their last name was already that name. Well, they're going to call him Bob. I fucking named him that. He said he was so proud to do his civic duty and sit on one of the juries here. He said he was so proud. He's a career military man.

He refused to accept the $52.50 he received for his six days of service on the panel. Wow. He said his gesture of returning the check was not meant to be significant. It's merely the thing to do. He said, it was my civic duty. Yeah. No, no, no, we have a thing. You show up.

We give you way less money than you. deserve and you take it. And that's your civic. The fact that you show up for 52 fucking dollars for six days, that's your civic duty. You got a dollar an hour, you fucking moron. Yeah. You're already putting out. Like there's no need for this shit.

So he said the recently retired Crawford County man said he sat on the jury panel and viewed the evidence in the murder case and was overcome by the greatness of the American judicial system. Oh, it never fucks up. Yeah. I was overcome. Overcum. I was just overcome.

Then an eagle flew through the room and like that was pretty distracting. You know how it is, right? I cried. One eye, stripes of tears. The other one, stars of tears. I just took the flag from the corner of the courtroom and wrapped it around myself. That's all I did. That was an abomination.

He said, I think our system is the greatest in the world. We're number one. Oh, God. That's a ballsy, especially in 1981 to say that. We were a disaster as a country by that, and a fucking mess. Is that Reagan's fault? That was everybody's fault from fucking 68 on, from Nixon on.

He was the guy that was taking the rap then, though, right? No, they were, no, he, the way he, I want to get into it because it's politics and people complain. But he made it like, now it's all different. And everyone went, oh, now it's all different. It was the same shit. Still can't afford anything and there's no gaps. Economy was shit till 85. Yeah.

And then it was good for a year and a half. and then the market fucking crashed and we had a goddamn, so that's what trickled. It's a, and a year and a half, you'll be good, and then it'll be worse than it was before. Great job. Did such a bad job that they elected a fucking governor of Arkansas to be the president.

That's how bad of a job for 12 years they did with the economy, as they were like, this is so fucked up, that guy will fix it. Perhaps Arkansas can fix it. A dude from Arkansas bangs his wife's hairdresser. That guy will fix it. They didn't care. But he's so good at the sack.

Excellent. So this guy said after 21 years of service in the army from which he was a retired first sergeant, he said his patriotic stirrings are there. He said, I don't know, back when I was a child, it was a more automatic thing. You know, the old flag and star-spangled banner bit. Bit? But he's bit. I don't know what they're.

You know, the old, the old soft shoe, you know, flag and fucking banner shit. That'll just not made the greatest country on the planet of it, doesn't lead to you? He said that the Simmons case was the first he had ever heard as a juror, and he could not help but be in awe of the proceedings. He's in awe a lot, overcome by greatness in awe of a courtroom. Yeah. You're in awe of a bunch of civil servants doing their job? This is what you're in awe of. I was in awe of when I went in a court that we have a courtroom that looks like that.

My taxes are being pissed away on shitloads of wood. tons of wood and tons of fucking fancy chairs for judges and shit. And they feed those jurors really well too. I'd love to know what a state pays for in jury lunches. It's obscene what they're fucking paying in jury lunches, but you've got to feed them. He said, we all learned. It was an education. He said that his duty was not an easy one deciding the fate of another person, but it needed to be done.

He said it was a difficult decision, but when the evidence points to the defendant, there's nothing else. to do. He said during his own mental deliberations, there was nothing specific which tipped the balance to a guilty verdict. He said, I can't think of any one thing. There was just so many that pointed to his guilt. He said he sat and listened to the parade of evidence about the murders and the other jurors were conscious of being under the watchful eye of the defendant. This is from the article. With fingertips pressed together, Simmons frequently peered emotionless into the jury panel as the testimony was presented, possibly checking reactions. Yeah, he's seeing how they're reacting.

But the jury finds it extremely unsettling when the defendant just stares at them, especially if they're up for quadruple murder. Staring at them is one thing. Emotionless is an entire different face. When you're being accused of being a terrifying emotionless killer, and then you're standing there like this. It's just emotionless. What does the motionless look like apart from just blank-faced and horrifying?

That's it has to be fucking dead-eyed. So, yeah, they said the emotional issue of sentencing another person to die did not cause any inner conflict that he might have imagined it would have. He explained that the panel was locked away for deliberation. Some discussion did arise over the often painful decision. He said, we discussed it, but it's really not a decision the jury makes. It's the law and we're just following the steps. Oh, that's how he does it, Guilfrey. One way to do it, Guilfrey.

Okay. I didn't really kill a guy, you know. The law said I had to. When you pull a trigger, then physics takes over. It's not really you, you didn't kill them. The bullet killed them. You were just, it was just a, you know. Yeah, the law was written and said, you have to kill him.

All right. Yeah. Now, this is all in reaction, like I said, to other local death penalty cases in 81 that I'll go over real quick. They said there was five men facing capital murder charges in 81, but some of them from older crimes. Eugene Wallace Perry and 23-year-old Richard Philip Anderson were in custody on January 1, 81, awaiting trial on two counts of capital murder in the deaths of Kenneth Staten and 24-year-old Suzanne Statenware, who were discovered in a workroom at Staten's jewelry store in Van Buren on September 10, 1980. A jury convicted Perry of capital murder and sentenced him to death. Anderson was convicted of a lesser charge and sentenced to life. December 10th, 1980, Wilburn Anthony Henderson was arrested for capital murder in the November 26th, 80, fatal shooting of a 50-year-old named Willa Dean O'Neill at a used furniture store in Fort Smith that she operates with her husband.

What are you getting from a used furniture store? I guess a little bit of cash, right? I mean, I bet a lot of people pay in checks in 1980. with that. You know what I mean? What are you getting? And I'll take this fucking old love seat, too. Throw it on my, what the fuck do you want?

After a certain time, there's not really a lot of cash, right? No, there isn't. I mean, in 80 people had a lot of cash, but for bigger items, they wrote checks, like furniture. You didn't pay for furniture and cash. You wrote checks back then. People used to do weekly grocery shopping, pay with a check. Oh, for sure. Yeah.

That was with my mother always did that. Also, she didn't have any money. That also helped. I have these. check because in three days we're going to have money in that account. That's why. Either way, I have these and no food. So there you go.

There you go. Henderson's first trial ended in a mistrial. Then a jury convicted him and sentenced him to death. And a U.S. district judge court overturned his conviction and sentenced citing ineffective counsel. Okay. Henderson was retried and convicted a sentence to death a second time. and he was executed actually in July 8th of 98. Marion Albert Mad Dog Pruitt.

Well, Mad Dog, that's not one you want to go into court with. Nope. The defendant Mad Dog, that'll get you every time. That's like I always feel bad. Not that I don't feel bad, but it's always odd when like, you know, young thugs on trial. Gee, I wonder what the jurors are going to think of young thug. That's not going to go over well. Mad Dog, young, any, this never works out well when they bring your,

professional name in this case in there. It's all wrong. Tupac's his real name, but he was very well known for some words that he'd said. For sure. I don't think Snoop Snoop doggie dog helped himself much there either, but at least it didn't

have the words thug or killer or what do you think when C murder went up for his charges? What was the jury thinking about? He's not around, so there's an answer. There's your answer. So Mad Dog was charged with capital murder in 81 for the abduction and murder of 30-year-old Bobby Jean Rome Robinson, who he kidnapped from a convenience store, and he remained at large, they said somehow.

Pruitt, by the way, prior to this killing, had killed his wife, then kidnapped and killed a bank teller in Mississippi. And after he killed Robertson and fled Fort Smith, he killed two more men in Colorado. God, dang. Never been a more apt nickname than Mad Dog. He was returned to Arkansas in 82 after he was. He was sentenced to death in Mississippi and two consecutive life sentences in Colorado. And then in 82, he was convicted and sentenced to death in Robertson's murder in Arkansas. And he was also sentenced to life in New Mexico for the murder of his wife.

Who gets to kill him with all of that? That's what I mean. They got a, you know what I mean? They're doing sorry. For the shit. Yeah. If you don't know, I'm rock paper, scissors to Jimmy. What do you think here?

They're doing a coin flip tournament for Christ's sake. A bracket. 50-yard line. They're going to need a bracket for all those states. May 82 is an attempt to reduce his sentence. Public defender John Settles bid to reduce the penalty in charges facing Thomas Winford was rejected Monday during court hearings. Circuit court judge John Holland of Fort Smith denied motions asking the capital murder charges against Simmons be reduced to first degree murder and the death penalty be lowered to life imprisonment. So he's settled maintained the capital murder charge carrying with it the maximum penalty of death by electrocution should be reduced because, quote, there is no provision for automatic appeal within Arkansas state statutes.

I think federal law fixed that later where you had to. The public defender added without an automatic appeal, there's no provision to guarantee due process of law, which is true. The prosecuting attorney said, though, the U.S. Supreme Court has reviewed Arkansas. and saw state statute several times and has found them not to be or has not found them to be unconstitutional. They said that the same argument they echoed when Settle asked the possible penalty be reduced. Settle claimed electrocution was cruel, barbaric and painful punishment. And they said, well, the Supreme Court says it's great. So Louisiana is fucking doing a mess.

They're paying a real high electric bill. Oh, fuck, yeah. They're going to put in where you could choose to get. get, like if you get, they're going to put it, make lethal injection, the main thing. But then if you got sentenced to electrocution, then you get to choose. Okay. Which is fun. I like that.

How do you want to die? Hmm. I don't know. Real Sophie's choice. It's a tough one. Let me think about it for about, I don't know, 30 years or so. What do you say? I'll consider this over three squares over the next several.

Over several decades, hopefully. So he said that the settle alleges that the kidnapping. in Sebastian County are closely linked to the alleged murders in Crawford County and therefore to try his client on both would constitute double jeopardy. He said it is our contention that the kidnapping is included in the Arkansas capital murder statute. Now, the prosecutor countered that the defense argument of double jeopardy, trying a guy twice for the same thing, is unfounded. He said, I don't think you can argue double jeopardy until you've been in jeopardy once,

he said. Fields explained that he would need to have been found guilty of one of the offenses before the motion could be valid. Okay. The defense is also asking for $130 in costs, and that was denied. We'd also like $130 bucks. Well, the costs are one of the TV stations refused to turn over material without paying for copying costs. Oh, so they had to pay for You get the car. So they're like, can you have that? And they said, no. You can pay one of our editors to make you a copy, but you can't have this one.

It's just for paper because he wanted all the shit for all the interviews they did with all the people to say that the venue, change of venue should have been done. So that's, that's, he got to tell them to keep fucking off. 83, he appeals to the Supreme Court. The big one. The Arkansas Supreme Court. Anyway, you know, which is, you know, three guys named. Bubba. Yeah.

Warming their hands around a tire fire. Well, warming their hands. I was going to go all sitting on toilets that aren't hooked up to anything. That's just the chairs they use. Yeah. That's their thrones. They're like, these are called thrones. Yeah, that's what they call them.

They've been calling it since I was a bowl. A little shovel boy. Since they started getting them around these parts, honestly. Warm your hands on the tire fire. So the lawyer here, public defender John Settle, filed a 715 page petition. Wow, that is a long fucking thing with the Arkansas Supreme Court appealing the debt sentence. Settle said in an interview that he filed the petition in Little Rock and he said it took two weeks to write and raised 22 legal points. There's 22 points here.

So five points relate to the admissibility of evidence. the prosecution did not unfairly withhold evidence merely because the deputy sheriff who received the telephone call about the discovery of Larry Price's body at the first protected the caller's request for anonymity but disclosed the caller's identity at the trial after the caller had been given permission. Okay, so they ended up finding out that. There's no indication that the officer acted in bad faith that he had disclosed the name to the prosecutor or that the defense was handicapped by not knowing earlier the identity of the caller. Yeah. They also point 10, the court correctly refused to admit proof that some of Simmons' relatives had blood type A, which was the prices type and the type found on his trousers. So they're trying to say there's no proof that relatives' blood could have gotten on his trousers. If he said, hey, my sister, Marsha, got hit in the nose with a football and shot over and bled all over me, that would be one thing. But he never said that. He just goes, well, I mean, my family members.

members with type A. They could have bled on me. Might have been them with fresh blood on my legs. My cousin uses supers. You never know. You never know. It's possible. Any possible gaps in the chain of custody of blood samples were inconsequential and there was no substantial indication of tampering. During the penalty stage of the two-step trial, the court correctly refused to allow the defense to introduce pictures of a gas chamber, a gallows, and an electric chair, none of which

can be regarded as a mitigating circumstance. They're trying to appeal. We should have let them show the jury how bad that's how they'll show them what it does. They don't care. Yeah. But they know. They like it. They'd be like, good.

That's why they're doing this. Stars and stripes, babe. They were really about it. Yeah. Whether to send the jury, there's also a point of whether to send the jury to the scene of the Price's apartment to determine how well the witness Davis could have seen the three victims being taken to the car at some imprecise time after sunset. that was a matter addressed to the trial judge's discretion.

So there's no abuse there. The court was right in submitting to the jury the various charges of capital murder that we have already seen, that there were no, that there was substantial evidence to support each verdict. And points 21 and 22, the court refused to instruct the jury that it had to presume if Simmons were sentenced to life imprisonment without parole, he would spend the rest of his life in prison and refused to rule that if the defense counsel made such an argument to the jury, the prosecutor should be prohibited for mentioning it in reply the possibility of executive clemency. Okay. That's what the, okay.

So the high court denies the stay. Okay. Okay. Now, problem is the execution is stayed by a federal court. Yeah. Come in and supersede Arkansas. So they get, you know, put on that. So the stay was scheduled, the execution was scheduled like,

soon like it was coming. And so they said, this is from the Times record. The stay of Friday scheduled execution of Thomas Winford Simmons is one example of why the public has become disillusioned with the judicial system. That's what the prosecutor of the case said. The federal judge granted a stay of execution for Simmons. The prosecutor said, it is this type of action routinely granted without giving the state a chance to be heard that has caused the disillusionment of the public with the judicial system. I think it is time for the federal judiciary to start executing some responsibility and not just its authority. State jury's opinions and state Supreme Court opinion should not be lightly dismissed as it seems to be the rule for the past several years.

That's because you're in fucking Arkansas. And we proved over time that you fucking people in certain states weren't fair to a lot of people. That's why we have to do that. And if you didn't do that, you're the ones did to yourself, is what I'm saying. Just like you said about him, the murder. You made it. So it has to be that way. It has to be.

I can't trust 50 individual states to all be fair at the same time. Can't trust that. Got to have a standard. So Simmons' request for a stay was denied by the Arkansas Supreme Court, but then, you know, granted here. So there's a guy named Ron Heller, who's his new lawyer. he said he'd just become Simmons lawyer like a week ago and hadn't been Simmons lawyer long enough to prepare anything. He argued that the penalty was too severe and that it demonstrated passion and prejudice. And the state Supreme Court said it knew of no other case involving multiple murders so cold-blooded, brutal, or lacking any trace of humanity.

That's the Supreme Court. There is a letter to the editor now. And there, people, this pretty much reflects the public sentiment. Quote, no justice for victims is the title of it. The Arkansas State Supreme Court was quoted as saying that it knew of no other case involving multiple murders so cold-blooded, so brutal, so lacking in any trace of humanity as those committed by Thomas Winford Simmons. The state Supreme Court issued Simmons a stay so that his conviction could be appealed by the Arkansas Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court. The appeal has been found to be without merit and the Supreme Court refused to issue a second stay, finding no just cause to do so. Your sympathy and compassion for this barbaric criminal is overwhelming. This is to the newspaper because they might have written an article if they didn't like.

Are you fully aware of the facts of these murders? Would pictures of these four innocent victim's bodies lying in a hole with their limbs hanging over a tire covering the hole be proof to you of just how heinous these crimes were, convince you that Simmons does not deserve the consideration you've given him. He did not give his victims a stay of execution, nor did the victims have the opportunity to argue that their penalty was too severe and that it demonstrated passion and prejudice. Such as Simmons is now declaring, no, these four God-fearing people at absolutely no choice. Holly Gentry happened to be a very dear friend of mine. Holly, nor any of the other three victims, deserve this ill treatment. See, this is personal.

You can't write if you knew them. It's personal. Yeah. Much less suffer the brutal barbaric treatment at the hands and whims of Thomas Winford Simmons. He is no better than a mad dog. But that nickname's unfortunately already taken. So taken. Very unfortunate because he would have been perfect.

Several states, mad dog. It's not, you can't get it. He's national ban. It's like when you're first starting out and you're an opener comic and you hear some fucking famous comedian do a joke that you do and you know you did it first, it's there. now because people saw that. He's been telling it from the Mississippi to the Colorado. You're in trouble. Even if I did it first. Fucked. Nothing. He said it appears that you and the other bleeding hearts must feel our trial judges in Arkansas Supreme Court are incompetent. I mean, probably, but that's a separate issue. So you issued to stay for this quote, animal. The consideration you have given Simmons and overruling the state Supreme Court appears that you are condoning multiple murder. Holly, as well as

Detective, oh, they misspelled Tate, a detective whose name is so important to me that I don't even fucking take the time to make sure it's correct. How do you spell it? P-A-T-E. Pate. Nice. Pate. Pate. Detective Pate.

At least he didn't call him Tint. Yeah. His name is Tate. Let's give him the respect he deserves and call him his fucking name and not Pate. Serve the Lord Jesus Christ. That doesn't matter in court, bitch. Sorry. That doesn't matter.

That matters to you in your house. Outside those doors. That's what it matters. Nothing. Who gots? Stop making these four murders about you. You weren't even there. That's what it is.

He's a fucking animal who is a dangerous person who killed these people for no fucking reason. That's enough. Don't bring up the war and everything up? That's plenty. Doesn't even need to be your friend. I don't know these people and I hate him. That's what I'm saying. He's a fucking scumbag.

I'm sure how they. I'm sure they are in heaven this day. However, this does not lessen the pain and suffering their families are going through. Will justice ever be served? With your compassion for murderers and rulings such as Judge G. Thomas Isles on death qualified juries, we have only a system serving the criminal. Horshit. Criminal justice.

There's certainly no justice for the victims. And it's signed Marilyn Moore. Justice for crime victims, Fort Smith. God, I hope you're dead by now. You sound like a fucking insuffering. sufferable asshole. Okay. I mean, yeah, whatever, but you know what I mean?

Like, to use this exaggerated terminology and you don't care about this, you only care about that. All they talk about in court is the fucking victims, as they should. They never talk, but the poor defendant, that only comes up in sentencing mitigation. He has one little slice where he gets to go, oh, poor me, and then they never listen to him. So who cares? What's the difference?

Probably named after that godless Marilyn Monroe. Oh, godless. Godless. Oh, boy. So, 1986, appeal about not changing venues. He has one of those here. So they moved for the change of venue. They go over all the different people's statements and quotes and all that.

And they say, no, thank you. Back there again. So he's denied that. 1988. God, damn. The 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ordered a federal judge to determine whether Thomas Winford Simmons was ineffectively represented by his former attorneys. Okay. Now, let's get into this shit.

They said the same public defenders who represented Simmons, therefore cross-examined principal witness, James Davis had been representing Davis on a criminal charge of his own when Davis offered them his testimony. So that's what we're talking about. Now, stuff about James Davis, they said, Davis was not unknown to settle at the time of Simmons trial. This is right from the court document. August 5th through 19th, 81, that's when the trial is. On December 30th, 80, Settle had been appointed to represent Davis on a felony charge of theft by deception. At the time he was appointed in municipal court, Settle talked to Davis for about two minutes. In a second conversation occurring between December 30th and January 8th, sometime in there, Settle learned about.

Davis' record as a Vietnam veteran and that he was taking lithium. He may have learned that Davis had a service-connected discharge, but he did not recall obtaining this information from him. Cross-examination of Davis at the trial, Settle questioned Davis about his court-martial in Vietnam, but did not recall how he obtained that information. So they said he also cross-examined Davis about a conviction in Memphis. Settle said he's almost sure he obtained this information through discovery, not from knowing it because he's his client.

He also had an FBI rap sheet on Davis. This could well have been the source of information concerning the Vietnam court marshal. Settle does not recall whether he knew about Davis's treatment in the VA hospital in Fayetteville. Okay. So they said the criticism, the main criticism that is leveled at Settle is his failure to bring out the fact that Davis was taking lithium

and that he was being treated for depression by the VA on an outpatient basis. Lithium is a. widely used drug to counter manic depressive back in the day. So the problem is, I think here is, I don't think it, I don't think unless that was in discovery, it is not something he could know. He can't just know it because he knows the guy and bring it up. Okay.

That wouldn't be fair. It has to be something that came into discovery. He's saying, though, it definitely came from discovery, not from knowing him. He's saying some of the stuff, the Vietnam stuff, the other stuff. But they're saying, Simmons is saying, look, you knew this shit about this. guy. It was up to you to bring it all up to try to get me out of jail. And he's like, well, it wasn't really fair. So it's not really fair that he was cross-examining this guy is what's not fair. So they said, after all that, this is an examination of Davis where they said, I see no signs

of schizophrenia. He smiles. He has full range of affect. He senses his behavior as sociopathic and is a self-reflective, no hallucinations or delusions. He may have given the diagnosis he may have been given the diagnosis in a spell of temporary fury sometime. The overwhelming impression is of an emotionally discontrolled person of dull normal IQ who avoids responsibility

for his decisions and compounds his own circumstances by running or going into temper explosions. We'll use lithium to start. Now, the other thing here, so they said Settle should have never been a part of this case

in one way or the other. other. Then his second lawyer didn't bring that up in the last filing when they were appealing, didn't bring up this overlap of client issue about the first lawyer. And you know why he didn't do that? Because he's a fucking drunk. That's why. Oh, is he? That's what they say. He's an alcoholic. This is Heller, Mr. Heller. And they said that he was a drunk. A judge, though, said, I find that Mr. Heller was not suffering from alcoholism and his faculties were not impaired when he made the decision regarding the overlap issue and filed his brief on June of 1986 and argued the case in November 86. He surrendered his license to practice law in November 87, a year after he was this guy's attorney. He filed an affidavit and testified that during the previous year he had problems with alcoholism.

The problem would have thus arisen 11 months after he filed his appeal and five months. after he filed his brief in the court of appeals. That would be, if you take him at his word of when he started drinking and didn't drink before, which I wouldn't say that, probably. The case was argued in November 86. Mr. Heller testified he never did enter a courtroom when his faculties were impaired. Didn't get drunk and come into court. So he's got one on F. Lee Bailey, who drank his lunch.

So they said that, isn't it true or couldn't it be correct that the 12-month period, prior to November 87 is just when you began to recognize the problems and that you'd actually had problems sometime prior to that. And the lawyer says, I can't say exactly. I don't think in November 86, I realized I was having that much of a problem. In retrospect, in November of 87, when I surrendered my license, I certainly could see that over the last 12 months, there had been a pattern, not meeting my overhead obligations and things like that, that were certainly outward objective symbols of the problems. So that's what he said.

Now, they said denied, by the way. Go fuck yourself. Now, June of 1990, Arkansas hasn't been executing people, but now they're ready to start executing people again. Yeah? So they're saying, when is he going to fucking die, basically? They executed

Ronald Gene Simmons, no relation. And also, not the Ron Simmons from the apartment. Yeah. That his sister's house over there, different Ron Simmons. And not Gene Simmons. We covered Ronald Gene Simmons, I'm pretty sure. I think we did.

Yeah, he killed a bunch of people. He killed 16 people, including 14 family members. We did that guy, I think. Yeah. So there are several people up for this. There's a list of 32 men on death row in Arkansas, and they're basically going to execute them in order of how long they've been on death row, the crimes they were sentenced to death and the status of their appeals.

September 1990 is the final appeal. Here we go. U.S. 8th Circuit Court of Appeals denies him in September 90, moving him to the front of the line on the execution table. He is right. He got a fast pass. Hold on, baby. This is no, no, no, really. I got, no, no, I've been had my place held in line.

It's good. This is my spot. Yeah. A fast pass around all you bitches. The Arkansas assistant attorney general said if the U.S. Supreme Court refused to intervene, Simmons could be executed by mid-January 91. So, he is scheduled for execution mid-January 1991. Yeah.

They say that, by the way, there's going to be a, it can be lethal injection, it can be electrocution. They have a backup executioner, by the way. Oh, shit. Just in case this guy gets a stomach flu. Yeah, heart attack, trips and falls. The backup is a precautionary step taken in case the appointed executioner and not able to carry out the execution.

At the executioner and his backup, both will be in a small control room located to the right of the inmate. A small window will allow the executioner to view the inmate. The identity of the two people will be kept secret. Okay, so that's how they do this here.

They have media present. They have people coming. They said they don't believe, they said they don't anticipate any family members of either the inmate or the victims being present for the execution. Is that right?

that people used to never go for that now it's like i want to see them and so people have gotten wacky man people are fucking sick if you can't wait to see it it's it's sick you're kind of a little I feel bad for both sides to want to see it the only people that should be there are journalists to document that's yeah yeah that's your job you do that shit but either family it's probably bad just for normal people to watch people be killed is a bad thing it's not good for your psyche whether it's justified or however you want to put it but it's just not good for your mental state i don't want to watch a dog put down I don't I don't want to see anything killed. No. December 31st, 1990, less than two weeks away from his execution day, Simmons' body was discovered in his cell at the Tucker Maximum Security Unit as the guards were delivering lunch trays.

What a pussy. Yep. He was in his bunk, covered with a blanket, didn't answer the guard, so they summoned a supervisor. And they said there was lots of blood. So the medical personnel were called. There were towels in the bed soaked with blood. And they said Simmons died from a self-inflicted laceration to his neck apparently made with the blade of his disposable razor that had been melted into the handle. Dang, he jammed it in there.

Yeah, melted it. It's fair. They said, this is somebody from the prison. said, it's fair to say this much surprised the staff as everyone else. They said Simmons was not prone to cause problems for the staff, other inmates, or himself for that matter. Huh. He seemed to do really well in any environment except freedom. That's where he really had a problem when he could just do whatever he wanted.

Except for, yeah, except for in the military. Yeah, I couldn't do that. He left a suicide note maintaining his innocence. Wow. in the suicide note. They said, quote, with the exception of John Edward Swindler, who was executed in June of 1990 for killing a Fort Smith patrolman, Thomas Simmons was the most dangerous person I'd come in contact with. That's what the prosecutor said.

They said the type of disposable razor that a death row inmate apparently used to kill himself is available to all 6,500 state prison inmates, the spokesman said. They said, he appeared to have a self-inflicted laceration to the next door. neck area that was inflicted, we believe, from a disposable razor. The blade had been removed and had been set in the handle. He said, we don't have any reason to believe it was anything else but a suicide. Oh, we. All inmates are allowed to have one unadulterated disposable razor. And they said, we're talking about a disposable razor, not a straight razor.

It's still a razor. I mean, it's a razor's a razor. Does that create a danger only when an inmate chooses to use it improperly? Yeah, they're inmates. They shouldn't have anything that has a choice to be used improperly. problem. The fact that it has the option to be means they will fucking do it. Absolutely. And he said pencils and pensions are common weapons. So, you know, if they can have that. But look at an elementary school. You'll hand the kids pencils and pens. But will you hand them fucking razor blades? Probably not. You know, it's the same thing. They said bed sheets could be used as a rope. We issue bed sheets. What's the difference? I mean, I don't know what else you do. The guys have to be able to shave. You can't. And you can't. And you can't. And you can't. shave. Start a line and shave people every fucking morning. Fuck no. Fuck no. I mean, you could do electric razors.

That works. Then you'd have to provide those and they're a lot more expensive. Maybe over time they'd be cheaper though. Yeah, but in an electric razor, there's a fucking razor inside there and you could pull that out. Yeah, true, true. It's just not a, no. It's a very small chip. But it's the same as, it's the same as that one that they fucking cut people with in wrestling. It's, it's bigger than that razor. Yeah, they, they just do a razor blade, It's a tiny thing like that and just tape it up. Well, sometimes it's half a razor with tape on it, but it depends on who's doing it. Sure.

So they said that Simmons has no record of mental health problems, and they said it's fair to say this as much surprised the staff as everyone else. So one said, this is the prison staff, police sergeant from the state, it was nothing whatsoever but self-inflicted. He made elaborate preparations to kill himself. Now, why did he kill himself? I don't know because they were going to execute him in two weeks probably. W.A. Gypsy Henderson knows why he killed himself. Gypsy Henderson knew him in jail before they were both on death row. And he said that he didn't want his family in the spotlight.

So he killed himself to save his family. He said, if I don't get, he said, I talked to him years ago. And he said, if I don't get a new trial and they don't reverse this thing, I'm not going to put my family through that. Gypsy said, you know why he took his life? So his family didn't have to go through the media, newspaper, radio, and television, and all the hype that would have come about it, probably sometime this year. It was well planned by Tom, Gypsy said. I do not believe the prison guards could have stopped this unless they happened to be in the right in front of his cell at that particular moment.

Everybody's burials here. The prices share a headstone. It's very nice. It's like a heart where they each have one side of the heart there at the Brock Cemetery in Johnson, Arkansas. Holly Kim Gentry is buried in Rudy, Arkansas at the Morrison Cemetery in Crawford County. And William Ray Tate is buried at the Oak Hill Cemetery in Benton County, Arkansas there as well. So there you go, everybody. That is Arkansas. And holy shit, that place is. Yeah, he wasn't going to, he was going to go out on his own terms no matter what. I think that was from the SART from the get,

you know what I mean? I think that's, yeah, honestly, I think if he knew the damn cops were coming to the sand place, I think he would have blew his brains out in the sand. Probably, yeah. I think he's that kind of guy. I think he thought he was going to get away with it. Oh, he definitely thought he was going to get away with it. Then when he deposited the check and he said, oh, fuck, why did I do that? I'll get the check back.

Then he was fucked. All he had to do is not steal that check and it would have been very hard to identify this guy. Although he went to a goddamn bank and said, my name is Thomas Simmons. Can I get that check from my? number. I'm a dead guy number first. Wow. So there you go, everybody. If you like the show or anything about the show, get on, whatever app you're on. Give us five stars. It helps so much. So thank you for doing that. If you're on Netflix, give the old thumbs up. That helps a lot too. Thank you for doing that. You can definitely go to shut up and give me murder.com. That's where I suggest you go. What's there,

you may ask? Well, merchandise, sure, yeah. But tickets to live shows are what we really want to talk about because our live shows are fucking awesome. They are. We're not going to be humble about. We're not going to be humble about it. They're goddamn good. They're great. And we know that because people tell us that that go to the shows and we know it because even other comedians that see it go, Jesus Christ, that was fucking incredible. And you know what else? We see. We see thousands of people stand and applaud after the goddamn show. Yeah. And it's because it's funny. We do a great. We do a really, really funny fucking show that also has a real complicated murder that we do jokes and visual jokes. It's great. So get your tickets right now.

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As soon as you subscribe, you get hundreds of back bonus episodes. Like 400 of them that you've never heard before. Then after that, you get one crime in sports and one small time murder every other week for the foreseeable future. So this week, which you're going to get, it's just going to tell you this. It's prisoner dating game time. It's back again, back by popular demand. And this is one almost like when the Sopranos were on HBO.

Like we see a lot of people subscribe for this particular episode of they need to hear these again because they're so goddamn funny. Prisoner dating game, I'm going to line up four bachelors and four bachelorettes for Jimmy here. And they only have one thing in common. They've all been convicted of violent felonies. And Jimmy's going to pick one. of each based solely on how they describe themselves. And then he's going to try to read between the lines. And then we're going to find out afterwards what they have done

and how horrible of a person Jimmy has picked to spend time with. It's going to be great. Can't wait. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you also get everything we put out. Add goddamn free, baby. Ad free. And on top of that, you also get a shout out, which is right.

God damn now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never do any of the shit that happened this episode because it was just disgusting. Hit me with him. Right. Fucking now. This executive producer, Gary Howard and Allentown, PA. Good for you. Hey. He's living here in

Allen. Lankham. Singing fucking Billy Joel sons. Good for you, Gary. Claude Covalho. Happy Hours in Galveston, Texas. Oh. Don't get washed away. Aaron Webb. Kelly Becker, Shea Hausmann, Christy Malcolm, Chris Bowers,

Vanessa Braley. Thank you all so much for doing with you. Also, real quickly, Thank you. Fucking love you guys. These shoutouts, you guys, we try to do them. We started this to try to give you guys credit for what you're doing because we really feel like you are the backbone of this and you deserve the credit.

So we just want to mention your name this once. Yeah, I just want to shout you out. People, there may be a little confusion. I can only do this on the initial sign-up. If you hear anybody repeat it, it's because they donate every week and I don't fucking know why they do it, but boy, am I grateful for those people. Thank you for doing it. Yeah.

So I can only do it on the first one because otherwise this would, this would take longer than the show. It's thousands of people. It's crazy. We'd have to put out a separate show, a separate two and a half hour show every week. Of just names. Of just us stumbling through the fucking different ethnicities of this country. That'd be easy for me, though. That would be good.

We should do that one. We could replace a regular show at that. Is that what you want? Is that what you want? I hope not. Other producers this week. So the point is, giving you credit, you deserve it. You appreciate it.

Thank you so much. We love you for it. Thank you. But I'm not going more than once. Fucking, God damn it. It's impossible. What if we could, but we can't. Other producers this week.

Peyton Meadows, Liz Vasquez, Janice Hill, Bill McClellan, Casey Thompson, Megan and Mabel Fred, Scarlet Horbees, the third. Thank you all so much. Dustin Kelly, Elise, Elise, no last name, Elise, I think. Sam Hodd. Tracy Fontaine, Sarah Sanders, Kendra would know the last name, Katrina Bell, Danny Erritt, Todd Wallenbeck, Heather Morchay, Craig Garland, Courtney Griggs, April K, Joe Whitaker, McKenna, Matthew, Megan Block, Kimberly Wattow, Joe White, Ryan Delgado, Brandon Wilson, Lauren Murphy, Dina Hoffman, Joe would know last name, Benjamin Gears, Brooke Page, Amy Linabarger, Linnebarger, Line, All right, Chance would no last name, Natalie, Fia, Flora, Florianchich. It's the best you're getting.

Bridget Revere's. Revere's. All right. Allison would no last name. Pam would no last name. Sp. No last name. Justin Yetzers. Megan Davis. Adam Hess. Janine. Janine. My God. Mallory. Megan Follett. Denny would know the last name. Denny would no last name. Misty would know last name. Gavin Beery. Joseph Florkley. Life is better with dogs. I couldn't agree more.

Denise Bebiano. Ronnie would know the last name. Tanika Beaver. Hell, yeah. Megan Termezia. Termese. Hey. What's a...

How do you say her name? Termese. Because it's like Torme. Yes. Mel Torme. Mel or Marissa. Jessica, but it's termite. All right.

Jessica Perky, Perk. You got that. Derek Stewart. Leslie would know the last name. Katie Bourne. Jan Sims. Phil, Abigail Bittar, Julia Davis, Trina Childe, Child Shaw, Amber Spencer, and then Laura Spencer, or is that Cora Spencer? I don't know what I did. I may have mistyed Laura. Brit would know last name. Kay Bui, Lindsay Trent, Shea Housemont. I said that. Johnny Rhodes, Luragon, Chistel. Nope, that's Crystal. Crystal Gilbo.

Chistel. Is it Chistel? You should go by Chistel now, Crystal. Is there an R in there? I don't know. I love it. Fucking awesome. Dave Dorn, James Bugger, Chris Schooning, Chuning, Shannon Leary,

Brittany Green, Mama 5150. Todd Fissel. She's crazy, James. Crazy mom. It's a crazy mom. Carole in the last name. Robert Smith, Holly, DeCren. DeCre-Cres-Cenzzo.

Oh. Cray-Cenzo. Something Italian. Leath Hammer. Lishamar. God damn. Coralie would no last name. Beth would no last name.

Robert Burke. Cessaly would no last name. Killer state of mind. Tina Tiago. Jeff Gomez. Tuck. 1195. Jessica.

Mijilich. Mijilich. Mijalich. It sounds like something Bore at would say. It's a easy. Rian, Rianan, Rianen, Henry, Abby Danko, Smooth C, not, wait, no try just hard. I don't know. What does that mean?

I have no idea. I have no idea. I'm trying to get out of me. Something Yoda, Yoda was talking the porn stars. Jamie Mears. No try. Penis just hard. Sorry.

Say it was some nondescript accent. Brendan would no last name. Chuck Lankford. Ike Bryant Liscoe would no last name. Tara. Quozo, Quozo, Jennifer Lee, Melissa would know last name, Mandy, or maybe Leah, Mandy Latier, vegan me, Rebecca would no last name, Melissa, Mila, Miajeneck, Jeremiah Gray, Neb, Knob, Nab, Knob, Nab, Nab, Nabsaw, right? Nobody's name is Knob. Connie Ryan, Christopher would know last name, Jeff Millett, Katie Keller, Mike Doherty, Sarah Sumon, Ryan Dedy, Andy Kiki,

Susan would know last name. Miranda Quillho, Lumaneatier, Luminator, Charles Williamson. What is it? I said, there you go. That's probably. Right. C.W. Laura Bishop, Cody would know last name.

Ryan Hanink. Pierrette. Pierrette. That's the girl Pierre. I do yoga. Ida yoga. Ida yoga. Pierre Rett.

Is there a pierrette? Pierre's daughter. Yeah, it's a little. Pierreette. Is there a gal named Pierre? Yolanda Fultz, Kimberly Howie,

Carla would know last name, Money or Mooney, Christian Mueir, Leslie Cullen. She has two, and she did that on purpose. Two paid,

thank you, Leslie. Vanessa Bwendole, Chris O'Dell, Crystal Osborne, Lazio, nope, that's Laslo. Marks, Sloan, Skillman, Deborah Logan,

Ben Mills, Dana Kilcoigne. That's probably not right. Kelsey Terrell. Meg would know last name. Gary would know last name. Leeland. Helms. Leeland is such a cool old man name.

I had a crossing guard name Leeland. He was the best. He got hit by a car and died. Oh. Holding a little sign out there. That's a heartwarming story. Yeah, a sweet old man just got blasted by a Honda cord. Perfect. That's how I want to go.

Christy DeChilo, Brian Hansel, Deborah Glazer, Justin would know the last name. Lynn, Lynn, Steve and Dina Lauren, Jennifer Strozener, Heidi Anderson, Sam would no last name, Ashley Smith, Christina would know last name, Amber Robinette, Alexandra Mitrofan, Micah Reynolds, Katie Gabiolold, Gabagool. Michelle Miller. Oh, that's probably, we need to probably know her. Michelle's terrific.

Martha. Yeah. All right. Arraselli, Martha, Martha, Joan Rowland, Ryan Young, Tracy, Craig, Carl's, Carl, Barclay. All right, Patriot, babe. Better be the Patriots. It's a New England variety.

Brandon Brooks, Fern Dragon, Christine Bridges, Rick Salvera, Mackenzie Green, Angela Jones, Sarah would know last name. Beth Ward, Pete, would no last name. Heather Zirpel, Zerpel, perhaps. Brett Whitaker, Amber Hodorowski, Michael Ducey, Heather Montalvo, garlic thought. All right. Drew Miller, Amy Gaetan, and all of our patrons, you're the best. Thank you so much, everybody. Thank you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for all that you do. us. We really goddamn appreciate every last little bit of everything that you do for us. So thank you for hanging out, telling your friends, posting on social media, and just for listening alone in a room staring at the wall. Thank you for that. Thank you for everything. But definitely, if you want to find us on social media, shut up and give me murder.com. As menus, it'll take you everywhere you need to go. So come out and see us, come to a live show. Keep coming back each and every week, no matter what, though. And also, until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.

Bye. Hey, everybody, listening to Small Town Murder out there. Hi. Good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmy, too. And this is an ad, but not an ad for a product. This is an ad for tour dates. Yes, come see a live show.

The 2026 tour. All the tickets are for sale right now, starting out with February 21st in Nashville, March 6th in Durham, March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets, though, to your stupid opinions on the 21st of March. Salt Lake City sold out. Denver has tickets. Be there on May 2nd. May 29th, Buffalo sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan, May 30th. We have September 18th, Milwaukee, September 19th, Minneapolis. October 3rd in Dallas, October 16th in San Jose, October 17th in Sacramento, November 13th in Terrytown, November 14th in Boston. Come see us. The live shows are spectacular. Come join all of the other STM people.

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