Small Town Murder - The Charming Susan Strangler - Demarest, New Jersey

Episode Date: October 22, 2026

This week, in Demarest, New Jersey, something seems to be up, when two women disappear. Both are found brutally murdered, within days of each other, and near the same area. The crazy part is, it turns out that both of their names were Susan, and that's not the only thing that thet end up having in common. The other thing is a connection to a local man, nicknamed "The Charmer", who is supported by a rich aunt, and always in trouble for increasingly violent behavior. Will his family money keep him out of trouble??   Along the way, we find out that when the Army used to run out of space, the soldiers would just live at a racetrack, that constantly bailing a troubled person out of trouble isn't always the best solution, and that some people won't take you out of their will, even if you try to have them killed!!   New episodes, every Wednesday & Friday nights!! Check us out on VIDEO Wednesday and Friday evenings on Netflix! www.netflix.com/smalltownmurder Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions!   Follow us on... instagram.com/smalltownmurder facebook.com/smalltownpod   Also, check out James & Jimmie's other shows, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts!!

This week, in Demarest, New Jersey, when two women disappear, both found brutally murdered within days of each other, it turns out that both of their names were Susan, and that's not the only thing that connects them to a local troublemaker nicknamed the Charmer. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrogalo. I'm here with my co-host.

I'm Jimmy Whistman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today and another really absolutely nutty, wild, insane, crazy edition of small-time murder. This guy is wild and they thought he was responsible for a whole lot more of murder. It's a crazy episode. We will get into that and much more. Before we do that, though, definitely head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for live shows. Only two left this year.

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's it. Get in there. New dates will be announced very soon, and tickets will go on sale in December, by the way. It's going to be great. But Terrytown, November the 13th, that is just about sold out. There's a few tickets left. I don't know. Then Boston the next night, actually, Medford, right outside Boston there.

Medford, we will be there at the Chevalier. It's a really nice theater. You're going to love it. So check that out and come see us. Shut up and give me murder.com is where you get all that. Add merchandise. There's tons of new stuff. Tons of it, yeah.

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And you get them all. Because we're givers. Just take them. We want you to have the things that we want you to have nice things. That's all it is. So that's what you're going to do here. Not a lot of that going on today. No, for small town murder, I can't wait.

We're going to talk about that documentary, the widower till death do us part documentary, the guy who had six wives and four of them are dead. Oh. Which unless you're like 112 years old, that shouldn't be. You know what I mean? It's a little bit odd. So then we'll talk about how that all worked out. This guy's some kind of piece of work.

Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of that. And on top of that, you get everything we put out. Crime in sports, your stupid opinions. And of course, both small town murders all ad free. Holy shit. Add free. Give it away. There take it.

Ad free. Then on top of that, you also get a shout out at the end of the show too because damn it, we care. We'll work on that. That said. Disclaimer time. This is a comedy show, everybody. We're comedians. People are certainly going to die.

The show's called Small Town Murder, so we don't want to rip you off there. The thing is, you go, well, how does that, how does that, do those things go together? I don't understand. How? I don't get it. Well, very easily, the way we do it is we never make fun of the victims or the victim's families. Why, James? Because we're assholes.

But. But we're not scumbags. That's it. That's it. That's how you do it like that. It's real easy. There's plenty of other stuff to make. fun of. We all are from somewhere that deserves to be made fun of. It's fun to make fun of a town.

That's good times. Some police force that bumbles around and doesn't do their jobs and let somebody kill other. Let's let people go out and keep killing. That's something to me made fun of. And we make fun of murderers because fuck them. What else do we have? We have nothing else we can do with that. So do you think that sounds good? You're going to hear a hell of a story. Do you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together? Maybe not. You might not like it, but we think you will. And we think you should stick around and find out. out. But either way.

Fucking word. No goddamn complaining afterward. That's how that works. So I think it's time, everybody, with that said, to sit back. What you say? Clear the lungs. There we go. Arms to the sky.

Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. What do you say? Everybody ready? Let's go on a trip, shall we? Bag's pack, Jimmy. Okay, behind your chair.

As good as they're going to be, they'll lose. Jimmy's just got a Like a glad bag It's one of the ones where you pull it tight You know and everything like that But it's sitting in this milk crate that I put Roller skate wheels on That's pretty good, yeah

That's good luggage And he just ties a string to it He ties a string from that to his belt loop And he just drags it behind him in the airport It's real nice Can't get off It's pretty fun stuff We're going to Demarest, New Jersey

This week D-E-M-A-R-E-S-T Demerest which sounds like some sort of product. Yeah. It's the most demmer. If it was derma rest, you'd be like it's some sort of skin thing where you like put it on and it relaxes your skin. This sounds like a head and shoulders type of shampoo.

Totally does. Demarest, yeah. Get your dem arrest two for one right now, it's shop right. This side tingles. This side, not so much. Not feeling anything with this side. Tingle. Oh, Selsem Blue is that.

Well, one of those. Yeah, they had, I remember that. The defined. You got shampoo on either side. This side. Tingling over here. Not so much. Well, then that sounds like it's bad for you.

I was going to say, is tingling of the scalp good? Tingling? Not good. It seems bad. This is in northeastern New Jersey. About 50 minutes to New York City, so you know it's going to be expensive because it is within commuter range. Very easy commuter range. About two hours to Philly, the other direction.

And about an hour and 10 to our last New Jersey episode, Franklin, New Jersey, episode 702. I remember that one, the bloody pizza murders. Remember that? There was way more to it than that, but they come to the scene and find a corpse and a pizza. They're like, what this is odd? This is in Bergen County, area code 201. A little bit of history here. We'll do a quick little history.

John Demarest's wool mill became an optical company. In one point, there was a wool mill. Then it became like an eyeglass company, I guess. Jackets to glasses. And then later a piano factor. fucking... This building is... It's like he's got a hobby

and he just changes the hobby every 10 years. Like, I'm gonna make these out. I don't know if those were his, all of his, but I don't know how you'd have to completely retool a factory

to make it... From wool to pianos? It's a very different thing. In 1903, the borough of Demarest became a thing after they separated from the township of Harrington.

They don't want to be with those fucking bums anymore. The first mayor was John HZ Demarest. Demarest. Demarest. Yep. Makes sense. By this time, there was all sorts of new people coming in.

They had a new church congregation. The Methodists were coming. They used to meet in the bowling alley. And then it burned down. So they had to figure out where to go. Everything burned down back then. The First World War had a lot of military activity around here. They had Camp Merritt, which was being built in Crestkill and Dumont.

And while that was happening, troops were quartered intense on the Demarest race track. They just put them out on the race track. Like a horse track. A big open area, I guess, for a lot of troops. And that's where the high school is now, apparently, where the racetrack was and where the troops were quartered. So a little bit of review time here.

Here's some reviews of this town. Here's five stars. Demarest is a really quiet place with very friendly neighbors and community members. Yeah. They're not the same people. No, neighbors and community members are very separate. That's why I read it like a neighbors and community members. We got everything here.

Though it's an extremely small town, it has a gazebo downtown where many concerts and events are hosted free for the public over the summer. What big is that fucking gazebo? We'll find out what there is to do, don't you worry. The downtown area is small like the town with few stores, but it's never an issue. As a few minute drive to the neighboring towns, you'll get all the stores you need. And you're less than an hour from goddamn Manhattan. Like, you know, New York City. You can literally find anything you need within an hour of your house.

Yeah. The schools are also above in education and have many achievements throughout the years. Not the students, the school themselves. The school. Students don't do shit. The building, very impressive, though, wins a lot of awards. Four stars, just very short. The crime isn't very bad in my town.

Good. I guess that's good. We'll find out later. with some stats about that. Here's three stars, finally, and this is the lowest review I could find, is three stars. It's an all right town.

The schools here are decent enough, and there is care put into them. People here are genuinely nice and friendly. It also has a nature center, which is a plus. However, it is known to be, quote, one of the safest towns in New Jersey for a reason.

If you're considering moving here, though, please consider for yourself. Is there something such as two safe? Oh, it's so safe. That it sucks now. Perhaps this place is just lulls you into false sense of security. Yeah, this is what people do.

They have kids and they move out to places they feel are too safe. Yeah. If you're like starting a band and you're 24, this might not be the best place for you. You might want to find an unused, you know, warehouse space where they used to make pianos and eyeglasses and you can figure that out. A little scarier place for some. Yeah. And then just some food for thought.

Oh. It's too nice, is there? Complaint. People in this town, 4,97 crushed souls under the heel of being too nice around here. Too safe. More men than women, which is odd for a town of this size. It's only 49% women. So a bit of a sausage party here in Demarest. Demarest is a kind of sausage in case you weren't in case you were wondering. No, it's might as well be. Median age here, 45, which you kind of see that with the burbs. People move out when they're a little old. older family here. This is one of the highest we've ever seen. It is 50-50 is normal for the rest of the country and married. 76% married.

These are, yeah, it's a quaint, livable family community. You moved here when you thought the city got, when it was too hard to get your baby carriage down three flights of stairs and your walk-up, you were like, okay, we're moving to fucking New Jersey. Tired of dragging that shit down the stairs in the subway. Too much. 76% married. Two percent divorced.

So these people have money and they're like, we are not getting divorced. It will not breaking up this fortune. I did have a nightmare the other night that I was still married and whoever I was married to wanted a divorce. And I was like, oh, no. It wasn't your ex-wife, which you were thrilled about that. It's just another one. I don't know who it was. But they knew they didn't want you.

That's all they do. But now I got to give away my house again. Oh, man, I don't want to do that. But I just got it how I like it. I just put a garage in. 1.4% single with children. There are no single parents here. That is insane.

Race in this town, 56.9% white, 0.3% black. That is very low. 32.6% Asian. You didn't expect that stat to fly out of there. I don't know what it is, but a lot of Asian people here. I mean, you can have as many as you want. Don't get me wrong. You're allowed.

Go crazy. 7.9% Hispanic. So pretty diverse, I would say. 65% of the people here are religious. Normally it's 50-50. And no shock with the runaway hit of the season is as far as religion is in Northeastern New Jersey. 49.6% of the people here are Catholic. Those Asian Catholics.

They're really something. Say, they even got the Asians being Catholic now. That's wild. That is something. 4.3% Jewish. Oh, my goodness. Oh, yeah. Oh, we can sing.

This is like two weeks in a row. Let's do it. Hava. Nagila. Hava. Nagila. Havah. Nagila.

I don't know the words. Hey. Hey. That's fun. Okay. Unemployment about average. Yeah. Median household income, well above average.

Yeah. Yeah. About 69,000. Rest of the country here. $191,346. It's median. And they're broke. Yeah.

And they're so. stretching right now. The cost of living here, 100 is regular average. Here it's 141. Pretty high. Everything is pretty normal except for housing, which is extreme. The median home cost here is $964,500. Median is a million dollars.

Amazing. Wild. So let's find out what's available if you've decided that you also would like to live in a very Catholic suburb of New York City. We have for you. the Demarest, New Jersey Real Estate Report. Here is, okay, a three-bedroom, one bath.

None of these have square footage on them, by the way. I don't know. Three-bedroom, one bath. One bath, maybe one-half. Yeah. But three-bed, one bath. No, I don't know what the square footage is. I would say looking at it about 1,500.

It's a two-story house, not huge, vinyl siding. Yeah. The inside needs a shitload of work. Tons, yeah. It needs some work here. $849,000. That's the cheapest house in the area. Oh my God.

And that just had a price cut of $26,000. But that is the cheapest house in the area is $850,000. And it's a pretty small house that needs a bunch of work. Almost can't live in it. Yep. Here's one. Three bedroom two bath. Again, I'm not sure.

The square footage looks to be about the same. About $1,500. Two-story little box of a house. Inside's not great. old carpeting, old shit. It even says that older three bedroom, one and a half bath house, in need of renovation or build new.

Or tear it apart. Just tear it to the ground, build a new one. $1,199,000 for a fucking tear down. Maybe restart with this $1 million. Wow. Then I have the big one here, and this one they actually listed the square foot in the listing, so it's in here.

Six bedroom, eight bath, T-Bull for each and every beehole and a couple neighbors. 7,829 square feet. Huge. Modern-looking, pretty cool. Castle, very nice. $4,500,000. I mean, come on, man.

Is that on land? No, this is, you're not, this is half an acre, maybe. You got a neighbor right there. Oh, yeah, for sure. And their big giant rich house looking at you, complaining that you're there. things to do in this town. Here we go. Demarest day.

Oh, boy. It's happening now, it says. Really? Is happening not right now, but that's what the poster says. It's happening right now. Here is from 1 o'clock to 2.30 p.m. the coveted 1 p.m. spot at a festival here.

Music with Marley. Oh, boy. Beats me. Not Bob. I know that. Not Dan. Not Dan. Not even Ziggy. We can't get anybody in here. 2.30 p.m. is the Tiger Kim Taekwondo.

Oh. It makes sense because it's a third Asian here. So maybe that's part of the, I don't know. Not that you have to be Asian to do Taekwondo, but most of the people that teach it are Asian. I'm not learning Taekwondo from a white guy. I'll tell you that much right now. I'm not paying a white guy to tell me that.

Yeah. Even if he knows it really well, I'd rather be snowed with some. some mystical Eastern shit, you know what I mean? I'm paying for it here. What are we doing? Snowed, man. Fucking fool me.

Con me. What are we doing? Tell me this is about a god somewhere. Yeah, I don't know. Tell me about this connection with the earth. Something. Give me something to go on here. Make it mystical.

I don't want some just dude from New Jersey going, hey, I'm Sal. I'm going to teach you out of kick and punch and shit. Sal with a smoke bomb. Yeah, no thanks. Then after the Tiger Kim Taekwondo squad is the Holy Angels dance team. Holy Angels.

The Holy Angels. But they come out, but they still come out like a half time in a basketball game. They're like short shorts and have like a whole dance. The Holy Angels squad, baby. It is fascinating how we just objectify women in sports like that still. It's like, craziest. We're a hockey game.

Ice girls. I'm looking out my hotel window at the front where they have this big thing where the guys are coming in because it was opening night. And there's a whole cheerleading squad. And I'm like, it's freezing in there. What the fuck are these girls going to do? And I went to the game. I'm inside watching these chicks dance and scoop ice at the same time. They're like, they're so happy to be the ones that get to do it.

That's the sad part, I think. I don't think it's that they just do it. Yeah. In Dallas, I think people go, Mommy, I want to grow up to be objectified. I think they tell them that. They're like, well, that's good, darling. Mommy, could I not middle-aged men drool over my round ass?

Let's put some real blue eye shadow on you. There you go, sweetheart. Now they're going to objectify you. They got Miss Texas doing it. Miss Texas was out there. That's crazy. So then there's the Shoreline Anthem. They play, which sounds like quick,

but they play for an hour and 15 minutes. followed by the DJ dance party with Roy Carmelie. I want to see it. When he's not teaching taekwondo, Roy Carmelli is spinning the fucking. He's over there playing what he thinks are the hits. He's working the wheels of steel when he's not fucking, when he's not. Those ones and twos, babe. Unbelievable.

Roy Carmel. Hey, come on, everybody. Let's dance, huh? Put down your sausage and peppers for just a minute, everybody. Yeah, not too long. You know, I don't want to go great. Yeah, but we're ready to dance. This is at the Alpine Country Club.

That takes place. Then there's also the ducky drag race. Yeah, I bet that. I bet it's just the rubber ducks. It's rubber ducks. Drag races makes you want to go watch it, I guess. That's it, because they're moving fast. They have little cartoon drawings of the ducks, and they look really happy, and it looks kind of fun.

By the way, the way they make the cartoon look, it looks like the ducks are really into it, even though they're made of rubber. Are they moving? Is it like rapid? or something? No, there's just like a little, they have a little thing set up and you just drop it in. It's real simple.

It's kids. It's all little kids doing it. It's all. Crime rate in this town here. Property crime is less than one third of the national average. So over two thirds less than the national,

under the national average. Then violent crime, murder rape robbery, and of course assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one quarter of the national average. So about three quarters beneath

the national average. The national leverage it. Nothing goes on here. That guy's saying, is it too safe? Maybe. I'm getting bored. Yeah, it might be a little boring. Well, let's find out a time when it was not boring at all. Let's talk about some murder here. Okay. Wow, we're going to start out hot with this one. October 14th, 1975. Okay. Let's think about this. Big collars. Yeah. Tight pants, big bushes. It's all happening on everybody, too.

Men, women. Still got some pretty good music going on. There's some decent music and there's some, a lot of disco coming in and shit like that. This is 70s, very mixed bag time here, mid-70s. So on this day, a commuter bus stops at the corner of Country Road and Anderson Avenue in Demarest, New Jersey. This is not a well-populated area. This is not like in the downtown of the little town or anything. This is kind of off where there's trees and things like.

that. Now, it's somewhere between 605 and 610 in the evening. There is sundown. A 22-year-old woman on the bus that gets off at this stop named Susan Reeve, R-E-E-E-E-V-E. She was born in 1953. She's from Englewood, New Jersey. She's the oldest of four children of Arthur and Barbara Reeve. Now, Arthur, her dad, was an attorney and used to be a municipal judge. Wow. And, And Arthur said, my family was two girls and two boys. Two girls came first, then the two boys. And that's when they moved to Demarest when they had four kids because this is burbs. Yeah.

Yeah. Now, her father said that she, Susan, is always the family caretaker. Oh. Being one of the older sisters. She's the one you can depend on, which, you know, still, it's not real healthy to parentalize your kids and make them do that. But people do it. Um, she was very creative. She would make her own clothes.

She liked to do that. Like it wasn't, if dad's an attorney, they can afford clothes, but she'd rather make her own. She didn't even have an Instagram account to, to pick that shit. Just doing it for funsies. Just doing it because she likes it, which, when's the last time someone on this earth did something just because they enjoyed it? Not to show everybody.

Imagine that. Just, I just enjoy it. So one person. It is a nightmare that we do this and kind of, rely on, depend on word of mouth, social media stuff. Yeah. And I don't want to do that.

I have zero interest in that at all. I don't want to be, I don't want to show things that I'm doing. Yeah, but you're, you show an awful lot of what you do on social media. You're not real shy. I show more than I fucking want to. That's for sure. But I mean, I generally don't like, I mean, I leave

the house almost every day. I'm not fucking talking about it. No. Yeah. I mean, I agree. My last Instagram post was like a year ago. I just don't. I'm not, you know what I mean? Like I'll,

like every six months I'll post like some, I'm just not, I don't care. I'm not into the whole thing. I don't give a shit. This is enough of being out for me. Instagram's about the most I can do anymore.

This camera is about the only camera I want to have. After this, I don't like cameras anymore. Like, I'm on camera enough. Leave me alone. That's my general how I feel. You know,

and that's just because we're not like, neither of us are like, hey, look at me. We're, yeah, look at this. Like, that's just not how we are. So, we're more like, we'll be over here. You know, at least I am. There's also people that just fucking crave it, but that's a different story.

That's, yeah, they're missing something and they do crave it. So one person who knew Susan says, Susan was a delightful girl, very attractive young lady and likable person. Everybody liked her very much. She was Susan Sunshine. Oh, that's what we call her. That's what we call her. She went to Hollins College in Virginia, majored in art. One of her professors said Susan was a good student who loved art and made good use of her time at Hollins.

And also said she was always smiling and always very pleasant. A creative type. Yeah, she went to art, school for art, makes her own stuff. So she's, they're usually fun and kind of loose and, you know, not loose like, you know, like that. Interesting. Personality, yeah. Yeah. One of her close friends here from high school said Sue was joyful, creative, self-assured, and just plain fun to be around. Yeah.

She ended up working as a receptionist at an advertising agency in Manhattan, which is what most people do after art school because, you know, there's not a lot of jobs in the art industry. Yeah. And this was the stop that she used every day. She'd get off the commuter bus from Manhattan and stop. Her parents' house is just a short walk-up Anderson Avenue. Oh. So it's right there, you know, quarter mile from the house maybe. So she had graduated in May of 75 from college.

So, I mean, she just graduated. We're talking about October 75. Right now, yeah. So she graduated in May and spent a month traveling in Europe. Wow. And then started her first job as a receptionist at the Gray advertising agency in Manhattan. So she's like Madison Avenue. doing admin shit.

She's figured out life. She cracked the fucking code. She's doing it. And her dad being a judge, too, and her lawyer, he's probably got connections, which also helps, which you have to use everything you can use. But back then, too, you, if you're a college-educated young lady who looks, you know, presentable and everything, you're not, you know, you can dress to go in an office or whatever.

You could get hired as a receptionist. It was, yeah. If you could type, you could get a job as a receptionist back then, which was something that anybody could do. Yeah. Also, traveling abroad then showed interest in being a go-getter and being worldly. So that helps too. That helps too.

She was engaged to a man named Daniel Olmsted, who was a Columbia graduate student. Dang. Doing well. This motherfucker. Yeah. One family member said she was looking forward to being married, had just become engaged to be married right after college. So, I mean, you can't get your life lining up better. Went to college, goes to Europe, gets a job.

Yeah. She's married to a Columbia graduate student. So, I mean, you're going to be married to him, and that's going to be a thing. So for 1975, she is, everything's fallen in a place perfect for her. Jobs. Yeah. She lived at home with her parents and took the commuter bus every day. One investigator later said it was convenient.

The bus stop was just a short walk from her house. Her parents said she was always careful, too. Oh. Her dad said she was not the type of girl who would irresponsibly stop off for a drink someplace without telling her parents about it at the very least. She's like 23 years old. Yeah. That's irresponsible.

I'm going to go have a gin because I'm irresponsible and tell nobody. I should tell my parents when I'm 23 before I go out for a drink. Does she live at home still? Yeah, she lives at home with her parents. And so just letting them know, don't expect me right now. I'm having gin. Yeah. Don't set a place for dinner.

I'm drinking my dinner tonight. Suck on some whiskey. Take that. See around. It doesn't happen, though. So she gets off the bus. The driver remembers her getting off the bus. Another passenger remembers her, too.

She's an attractive young lady. People tend to remember them and what they do. They don't blend very well, attractive young ladies. A few minutes later... Sometimes I've left a place, some people probably didn't have a fucking clue I was even there. No one cares when a guy leaves. Unless you're like 6, 7, 350 pounds, no one notices when you leave anywhere if you're a guy.

Whereas an attractive young woman, And every guy's like, hey, look at her. There she goes. Hey, there she goes. Yeah, there she goes. And they watched her walk away as she. Yeah, they all say the same. I hate to see you go, that thing.

Yep, that's it. So a few minutes later, a local man driving his usual route at that time saw a young woman matching her description standing beside a parked vehicle talking with someone. Okay. Vehicle was a station wagon. Something about it looked wrong to him, apparently. he just thought the exchange looked weird. Just too hot for that car? Something.

Yeah, he's some dude in a station wagon, just way too hot. She's doing standing next to a truckster. Yeah. No, it was more like the family truckster. It was just the look on her face or something. It was an odd exchange. But this guy, you know, number one, what business of it is it of yours? That might be your ex-boyfriend or her uncle.

You have no idea what the hell of the conversation's about. And second, he was late to pick his kid up from school, or a school event and after school thing. So he was like, I'm not going to stop and go, hey, what are you two doing? Why is this weird? Yeah. Just walk up to a random conversation in New Jersey and be like,

is everything all right here? They'd be like, get the fuck away from me, mind your own fucking business. What's wrong with you? Yeah. Two of you don't match. Yeah. You don't go.

And that's not even what he said. So that's not, the guy is not like an old man or an old weirdo. It's not like that. It was just they looked to be. Just tense of some sort. Something. Yeah.

He came back a few minutes later, and she was gone, and so was the car. So he was like, I don't know, whatever. Guess they're fine. But Susan never made it home is the problem. She never comes home that night. October the 28th, 1975 is when they find Susan. They find her in a state park across the New York line. It's horrible, too.

She'd been pretty brutally murdered. She'd been raped. and strangled with a pair of panty hose. Oh, Jesus. Which is horrifying. Absolutely horrifying. Now, when police figure this out, they put their notes together and say, that's weird because right before this Susan disappeared, another woman named Susan disappeared as well.

Right before that, from the town next town over from Demarest. Has there ever been a serial killer that only killed women? with the same name? That's the fucking weird part. Oh, boy. They're like, could that, that has to be a coincidence, right? But at the same time, like, that can't be a coincidence. Like, what the fuck?

And newspapers started calling them the Susan Strangulations. Oh, I was just talking with the Susie Slaughterer, but all right. Yeah. Susan Strz. A little more professional, you know. Yeah. Less fun. Yeah.

Less fun. So now let's talk about a guy here, a young man. A man named Robert Ronald Relden, R-E-L-D-A-N. Robert Ronald. Robert Ronald R-D-R-R-R-G-R-Gos by Bobby. So Bobby Relden. Now, remember the name spelling. He's born June 2nd, 1940.

He's from Brooklyn. Now, Relden is not his birth name. Oh. Relden is the name he changed it to pretty as early as he could. Um, his actual birth name is Nadler. N-A-D-L-E-R. Turned it around? He flipped his fucking name and did that.

He's Relden instead of Nadler. Okay. That's the strange thing. Stupid. Very. His parents are William and Marie Nadler and he's their first child. Um, they have two children. They have him.

and then they have in 1943 a daughter named Susan. Okay? Now, there's a documentary by the way, later on, called Born to Kill. I just mention that now that some quotes came out of.

This quote came from there is that his younger sister then contracted polio as a child. Oh, fuck. Which would happen so often back then. Yeah. And a lot of the parents' attention go to the sick child, obviously.

And that's, there's, there's so many different psychological things where the first thing of Shrinkle ask you is, did you have a sick sibling or something? Because that's what this does. You know what I mean? There's a bunch of different. This affects people in a certain way. Now, William and Marie ran a luncheonette called the Sweet Sue Coffee Shop, which is right by Fifth Avenue in Manhattan. Early Prince. Yeah.

Yeah, a luncheonette place. It's a lunch counter type of joint. And it was busy. It made money. It's in a very good location, so that helps. And both parents work there. They also, they don't think that Bobby had much parental supervision because his mother and father worked all hours in this restaurant.

These family restaurants like this, basically, the kids either, I remember working for these, like when I was a teenager and their kids would come in after school and be doing homework at the unoccupied tables and then they'd be helping out because it was either that or they're sitting home by themselves. Right. So, because I mean, obviously, when does a restaurant make money? Yeah. Either lunch or dinner or whatever.

So in 1951 when Robert was 11, the family moved to Fort Lee, New Jersey from New York. So Fort Lee, you can kind of see Manhattan from there. It's right across the Hudson. Within a few years, now Fort Lee now is all big apartment buildings, big high rises and shit. but it wasn't like that back in 1951. Later, they lived in Closter, C-L-O-S-T-R, which is a few towns north of there. Now, the big influence in Bobby's life is his aunt Lillian.

That's his mother's sister. Lillian? Lillian, yes. Aunt Lillian. It's his mother's sister. Now, she was an aspiring Broadway actress when she was younger. That was what she was trying to do was break into Broadway. Sure.

But she needed a day job, so she waited tables at the sweet sue. One of their regular customers was quite a much older man named Ferris Booth, known as Colonel Booth. Okay. Now, his father was a financier and an early investor in IBM and Hot Point, and he got fucking insanely rich. Filthy rich. Filthy rich and Ferris inherited this giant fortune and fell in love with the waitress from the sweet sue. Yeah. Lillian.

Yeah. So Ferris notices her. They get together. That was a thing for a while, right? Where you would fall in. You'd go, you'd be a regular and flirt so hard that you might get the girl, get the server. You might get the server, but it helps if you have millions and millions of dollars. That does help.

It helps. It's one of those things. If you're just stopping off in between shifts, you know, at the welding, whatever the fuck, or at the mill, you're, it might be harder. But if you come in there every day talking about, well, just got back from the islands and, oh boy, that was something. It was beautiful down there. I'm exhausted from that long private flight. Oh, boy, I'll tell you what. My ties really take a toll on you.

Yeah, I had to get up from my seat to go get all of my own mixed drink. Didn't care for that much. There was no flight attendant. Just me and the pilot. Very exhausting. My grandfather's dad, that's how he got his wife, was that she was a server and he used to hide. He go in every morning and hide dollars under each piece of shit on the table. And then when he left, she would be busing the table and collecting his love.

His monetary love. That's like both cute and degrading at the same time. Like, I can't tell what, I wouldn't be able to tell what he was going for. Is he trying to degrade me? He cleaned this place up right. There might be something in it for you. Yeah. Or it's like also, hey, poor bitch, go on a scavenger hunt for your money.

Or it's like, hey, notice me. I'm different. I do cute things. Like, I can't tell which. And I hope it's like a lot. I hope it's not just like a couple of quarters here, a couple quarters there. Hit a dime under the little jrkyy and a little jrkyy and a little. jukebox thing in the table.

Some of this shit better be in fucking pay for money. I would hope so. Oh, man. So this is like in the mid-40s. This is just post-war. Like 46. Wow. They get together.

They're married. Uh-huh. Her, him and Lillian, and they're happy for about 10 years. And then Lillian gets the luckiest of a fuck no. The money never runs out. The money just grows and grows and grows. What? In 1956, Ferris dies suddenly from a stroke.

Boom. And it's hers. Every fucking dime is hers. No more. Lunch in that. Fuck, no. She was about 40 years old. She inherited, and this is in...

50-something-month- $50 million. That's the richest person in the world, right? No, no, no. There's much richer people, but she's got... Wow. Very wealthy. I mean, very wealthy.

Disgusting. Never... You're not going to run out of money. No, that's generational as fuck. And she's also a very good investor and learned how to do all the financial shit. By 2007, she was worth almost $250 million. And this is after giving hundreds of millions of dollars to charities and to fucking everything else. This lady had a fortune.

She was low. Wow. So that's your aunt. She's going to be your favorite aunt, I bet. You're going to get good Christmas presents from her. Yeah. I mean, I might do everything all day just to make Lillian smile. Does she need leaves raked?

Anything. Just I will go over there. I'm going to take a break from work. You know? Just to go tell her a new joke. Just to do it. Just trying to make her smile. So she gave away all this money to hospitals, churches, a retirement home for actors, charities,

just giving money away. She had no children. No children. She's amazing. He's the closest thing to a child she has. She has her nieces and nephews, and that's who she, lavishes her money and attention on. And by a wide margin, apparently, Bobby is her favorite niece and her favorite niece or nephew.

Just loves him. That's the favorite, always. She will pay for everything for him all the time. Really? In terms of, like, if he needs, if he has to go on a trip, if he needs a lawyer, which he will need plenty of those. Every lawyer we talk about, always Aunt Lillian paid for it in full. They would visit her estate. and she didn't have a house

She had an estate Yeah In Alpine New Jersey Which is The name Yeah Alpine New Jersey is extremely wealthy Yeah

Even now That's where like Tracy Morgan moved After the Walmart truck Hit him And the comedians and cars With coffee He goes

Chuck said Walmart on it That's what he was showing the house Like that's Yeah what did he say It said Walmart Not what do you say Radio Shack or something shit I can't remember

We're not Circus City or some shit Yeah He has a joke about it That's pretty fucking good Trump said Walmart, not Joe's Crave-Shag or something. Yeah, you sue the fuck out of that. Alpine's like where Chris Rock lives, where very wealthy people live in Alpine.

Later on, someone said she would wear flashy jewelry. She was ostentatious about her wealth. She was having fun. Yeah, she's so wealthy. She's like doing like the old-timey like Zaja Gabor thing with the diamonds and fur wrap and all that kind of shit. That's what she was about. One person said that Bobby himself,

lived a playboy's life because he's wealthy aunt financed horseback riding lessons and skiing trips and just doing it so yeah all the things that rich kids got to do he got to do too wow even though he grew up in a normal environment with a normal family in a normal house he got to live like a rich person every so often which is pretty goddamn cool um yeah but also somebody else said that he seemed like he thought he was entitled to more than he was getting. Oh. Hey, she's still cheap with me, though, even though she sent me to Europe. Rives horses.

Yeah, set me on a skiing trip in Vail. She's being a little, she could have put me up in the four seasons, not the Ritz. I like the four seasons better. You know, they, I don't know what the four seasons does, but I'm sure they do something specific and fancy. And he's riding horses that are probably well taken care of, well manner. I was riding fleabag bag, bag of bones, scared to death. We had family members bucked off these things that were never the same ever again.

He's like doing a... He's probably got all the equipment, helmets and shit. If we were near a horse, my family said, don't touch that fucking horse. You're going to do something to it. It's going to cost us money. Get away from that fucking horse. It's going to bite you or kick you. We're going to have to go to the hospital.

Some are you going to fuck it up and they're going to charge us. Like, just don't, just stay away from the horse. You're going to break its leg. You're going to break its leg. They're going to have to put it down and then it's on me. If I saw a horse. There was a cop on top of it. That was the only horses I ever saw.

That's one. Now, he's a juvenile delinquent also. All right. And I use this term because it's the mid-50s, and they love talking about juvenile delinquents back then. There's all sorts of movies about, like, you know, teen thugs and, you know, dudes with leather jackets and grease in their hair with a switchblade. Yeah.

You know, like the picture the thunderbirds from Greece, but not the T-birds, but actually, you know. Anything Elvis was trying to portray when he was 30. Some of that. Yeah, one of those there. Well, no, they weren't trying to be black these kids. No? Yeah, no. Elvis was stealing from different people.

But he was doing like jailhouse rock where he was like in jail and stripes and he was in there because he's a juvenile delinquent. You're 30, sir. He's a juvenile. Yeah, all the teen girls were swarming around him. So when he's 16 years old, January 11th, 1957. He goes into New York, into the city there, grabs a woman by the throat outside her apartment building and steals her purse. For no reason. He's got plenty of loot.

Yeah, we're talking base level. This is the most base level of dirty street crime you can get. Literally stealing a purse from a woman after grabbing her by the throat is the lowest of the low. Like there's a lot of street criminals are like, I would never steal a purse from a woman. That's fucking, that's beneath me. And what's in that purse? You know what I mean? It's not going to have a lot of money.

No. This is just a person who likes to be violent and steal things, it seems like. So two months later, he pleads guilty, because he gets busted, the woman look right in his face and told on him. He pleads guilty, and he's classified as a juvenile delinquent. He is adjudicated a juvenile delinquent. Sir? Smack the cigarettes out of his shirt sleep? It just popped out of there.

Mess up your duck bill in the front. How do you think that now? Tussled your duck tail, motherfucker. Now what? Yeah. So he's classified. He's put on, quote, indefinite probation. So for a while.

We'll see. When you're good, we'll take it away. Yeah, maybe until he's 18 because he's 16 at the time. October 1957, same year, he commits a series of residential burglaries. Oh. Break ins. a New Jersey judge again puts him on indefinite probation, which he's already on indefinite probation. So now we're on double secret indefinite probation.

But it's asking an institution of some sort. Well, there is a mandate here for him to get a psychiatric examination at Menlo Park Hospital as well. I'm not sure he's okay if he's doing this kind of thing. If he's this much of a delinquent, maybe it's a mental problem, absolutely. Now, the doctors found a narcissistic character disorder and a, quote, strong, repressed hostility toward women. Wild. I could have told you that by choking and stealing a purse from one. There's something there for that.

But what the fuck is going on? That's the thing. Yeah. Otherwise, you choose a guy to roll. You know what I mean? Yeah. You've got a lady that's a goddamn angel in your corner. That's the thing.

Well, and that's the problem, too, is she paid for that lawyer. She pays for this lawyer. She's paying for all the lawyers. His senior picture in high school, because he's still in high school when all this is going on. In his senior picture in high school, his yearbook, Class of 1958 here, there's a picture of him. And underneath it says, Bob sports that collegiate look. What does that mean? I don't know.

He goes to college? A flat top and a sweater. I'm not sure. In the 50s, what does that mean? The blurb said that he's an amateur pilot who plans a stint in the Air Force. Oh. And says that he has a, quote, acid sense of humor. Acid.

Which that meant he was just, you know, he had like a dark kind of a whatever. It burns, baby. It burns. He graduated 91st out of 128. So, not bottom half, not bad, but I can't, I can't snipe at that. Probably. Yeah. Then in July 58, right after he graduates, he's arrested for stealing five cars. Not at the same time, obviously. Yeah. Well, that's very collegiate. He needed one for each day of the week at school there. He was sent to a state hospital for observation where psychiatrists diagnosed him. I said it like Ricky Ricardo said it.

Yeah. Psychiatrics. A piece of keyitrist. I'm looking for on a piece of a psychiatrist. just diagnosed sociopathic personality disturbance with antisocial reaction. These are early descriptions of a very dangerous kid. Very, at 18, very dangerous. Anti-social. What was the other one a minute ago? Anti-social sociopathic personality. Yeah, that's not good.

Not good. No. These are all bad things. And it's one thing if he's just stealing cars. Because so far, he's done the one kind of violent act on the, woman and the rest of it's been burglaries stealing as the thing. Yeah. On Christmas Eve, 1958,

the hospital releases him into his parents' custody. You can't make the poor kid stay for Christmas. He's got no presents to open here. Come on. I think he's crazy now. Oh, forget about it. He sits through the birth of the newborn king. Problems will arise. You know what? You play Ave Maria.

He'll go crazy. We got to send him home. So, 1959, he's convicted of more autophage. All right. And he gets more probation. Then he was arrested for auto theft in New York. Seems like a pattern here. He likes to steal cars.

He's realized that's what he's good at. What's he doing with the cars, though, is the other part? Back then it was a car thieving was a totally different thing. Because parts were worth so much back then. Okay, so that's what he was doing. He was parting out the car. You can part it. And sometimes they would just, because there's no VIN numbers or anything like that.

They would repaint it a different color. Some sell it. Somebody would register it. That's the way it was back then. Wow. They didn't have all the things in place because they didn't have vins until the late 60s, was it? I don't know when they put vins on cars. I mean, I've got a 58.

It's got a VIN, but I don't know if that was, I don't, I'm unversed in Vins. An original VIN. I know they didn't always have vins. Yeah, perhaps somebody stapled it got one, it got a plate, you know what I mean? That may be, absolutely. So, anyway, he violates his probation is what he's doing. boy. So he finally gets a sentence, you, sir, young man, juvenile delinquent, sociopathic,

antisocial asshole may fuck off three years at Great Meadows, which is a reformatory in New York. Sounds terrible, too. Doesn't sound nice. Not an adult prison. Still under 21, so it's still kept in that whole thing here. Yeah, he is paroled in January 62 when he's 21 years old. Oh, boy. So they can either transfer him to an adult prison or let him go.

Give him another chance, yeah. Now, a psychologist later interviewed explained him like this, quote, there's no real gain in purse snatching from a monetary perspective, but there's a lot of psychological gain for a guy like him. Right. So, yeah, it's not about the, he's not a crackhead who needs $3 in there. So that's not what he's after. He's just, he likes to steal. He likes it. causing the woman or person to feel unsafe first,

and then she has all this inconvenience of getting all that shit back. Absolutely. And I think also it's some people, it's like in Goodfell's when he said he actually liked to steal about Jimmy Conway. He actually enjoyed it. Like he liked it. He thought it was fun. So yeah. And from the time he's in high school, kind of from now on out, most of his crimes are going to be directed toward women, essentially.

He stole a bunch of cars and shit like that. Probably realized that was easy to get caught from. Maybe switches it up. Now, when he gets out of prison as a nice coming home present, like he's coming home from college or something, his Aunt Lillian buys him a brand new Volkswagen convertible. Now you don't have to steal. Now you don't have to steal. Here's your own car.

It's green Volkswagen convertible brand new. So at the time... This is what, 62? Okay. 62. So this is a hot shit little car at the time. for a It's a Volkswagen.

It's probably a bug. That's all the thing. That was a convertible, I think. Totally. Unless it was a fucking Carmen Gia. Could have been a Carmen Gia. Oh my God. That's so spoiled.

I'm assuming by his behavior, it's a bug, because guys like him drive bugs. See Randall Woodfield, Ted Bundy. More. The bug is John Douglas in the Mine Hunter book. Did a whole chapter, not a whole chapter, but a whole section. talking about the serial killers and Volkswagen bugs and how they, for some reason, fucking love it. Well, the allure of that car is that it's very easy to fix it if you break it.

So if you're like out doing some dangerous shit or doing something you don't want to get caught for, if you have a car that if it goes, something goes wrong in it and you can't fix it, then you're fucked. That's, yeah, but it's not practical. That's not the point is the practical. There's something in their psychology. Something in psychology attracts people to certain cars.

And there's no way that all of them are. just like, I can repair this on the fly. None of them knew what the fuck they were. Randall Woodfield couldn't repair shit. Yeah, that's a good point. Neither could Ted Bundy. Neither they didn't know what the fuck they were doing. If you take somebody with you, I mean, they are literally on your lap driving the car.

They can't get away. Yeah. And also, it seems like the psychology, psychologically wise, at least John Douglas was saying that also it might seem like a kind of a harmless car. Sure. It's very much associated with college students or professors or college type things. It sounds unthreatening too. when it drives by.

It blends in. It does sound unthreat. Yeah, beep the horn on that fucking thing. It's not exactly, hey, get out of my way. It's more like, hey, how's it going? That's the beep there. Hey, how are you? It sounds like it's working so hard just to stay alive.

That's it. So at this point, he's clean cut, six foot two, very well spoken, has a brand new car. You wouldn't look at this guy and go, I bet he's on parole. Right. So February 25th, 1962. He's been out for a goddamn month. Okay? He and an accomplice of his break into a house in Fort Lee, New Jersey, at 3.20 in the morning.

All right. The owners were away in Spain. But inside was a 14-year-old girl, her older sister, who I believe was watching the children, and the older sister's three-year-old son. So this 14-year-old girl, her older sister, and her nephew are all in the house. he Bobby and his accomplice come in with their faces covered Yeah

One had a handkerchief over his head The other, this is the dumbest disguise ever Had a bath towel with a slit cut to see through That was like tied around his head He'd like a ghost Basically like a ghost costume He put a towel over his head and put a Not great

That was Bobby by the way The towel guy So this is how bright he is. They ransacked the house looking for money and jewelry. Then Bobby took the 14-year-old up to her bedroom, tied her up, and didn't rape her, but started groping her, and then started striking her several times in the head with an iron rod. Oh, my God. Maybe because she wasn't receptive to his advances as a 14-year-old girl. So much so that the accomplice heard what was going on and came in and pulled him off of her and said,

what are you doing? Leave her the fuck alone. That's not why we're in here. We're not here to beat up teenage girl up. This is rape her. This is crazy. So he's Bobby stopped and they left. Now,

that accomplice will never be identified, actually, but Bobby will. Then after the Fort Lee break in, he feels like there might be some heat for that, understandably. So he leaves and goes to Florida. Oh.

Florida by way of Connecticut and Missouri. Long run. Yeah, in Missouri, he enrolls in a small college for a minute. Real weird. On his way to Florida, he settled down for a second. We don't know if he intended to end up in Florida or if it doesn't sound like it. It sounds like he was looking for a place. His Aunt Lillian pays for his trip.

Pays for him to go to college, pays for all this shit. In November, 1962, he shows up. in South Florida. That's where he ends up. Now, Miami Beach police on November 30th, 1962, arrest him for impersonating a police officer. Okay. Why would you do that?

Think about that. Yeah. That's interesting. People, yeah. Yeah, but also women. Think about who used to do that. People who would pretend to be cops and pretend to be authority figures like that. I mean, Ted, when Bundy was arrested, he had police badges on him, right?

Oh, there was, that's shit. He would approach the women and say a lot of times that he was a cop. The girl got away in the mall that had the new Camaro. Right. He said, someone broke in your car. I'm a police officer. Will you come over here with me and all that? And then handcuffed.

Right. And then handcuff her. Even the mob did that with guys. They had guys be fake cops and go in. It's a very common thing because people automatically, they're not fighting, usually. They're not there. They think, oh, shit, I better, you know, let this person do what they want. Yeah.

We got blind trust for him. Generally, yeah. So, yeah. Now, it's a little bit. Yeah. So now a records check when he's arrested doesn't show anything because all of his earlier crimes had been in the juvenile system in another state, which isn't going to come up in Florida at all. And the 60s.

And it's the 60s. It's 1962 for Christ's sake. It's not like they run it through the database. There is no database. You have to call. This is all paper. This is all paper. So, and all the other crimes haven't been successful.

yet. So to Dade County, he was just a real well-spoken, clean-cut, first-time offender. Yeah. Just, who knows. So he pleads out five days later and gets a 90-day suspended sentence. A month after that, he's back in court in Dade County for breaking and entering. Fuck. And he pleads guilty and gets two years probation. Okay. So now he's on indefinite probation in one place and two years probation over here. As an adult. As an adult. So spring of 63 heads back to New Jersey.

Back to Jersey. Already fucked out. All fucked out. Yeah, he's already gotten busted there a few times. In January, I'm sorry, July 27, 1963, the cluster police, the town he lives in, or his parents live in, arrest him for carrying a concealed handgun in a car. Oh, shit. His parents post bail. Within a month, though, the North Arlington Police Department.

arrests him for breaking into a home and assaulting the woman who lived there with a tire iron. Oh, boy. He makes bail again. August of 63, they round him up and put him in a lineup for that Fort Lee home invasion where he tried to rape and beat a 14-year-old. Apparently, he probably took the towel off at some point. It kept falling off because it's a towel and it has no way to stay on and he's a moron. So no, he'd move, grab her, it would fall off, he'd try to put it back. That's ridiculous.

The guy's a moron. So she saw his face and the girl picks him out of a lineup. Wow. As the guy. This is bad. December of 63, he goes to, I call this the towelhead robbery trial he goes to here. It's his first. He got a towel on his fucking head.

He's a white guy with a towel on his head. He can call that all you on. He's got a towel on his fucking head. It's the only time you can have. actually use that and it's fine. So I'm taking advantage of it. Towelhead robbery. Nothing at all. Just a clean cut young man with a towel

on his head. Jesus gross. This is his first adult criminal trial. He made it. Everything else has been in the juvenile system. He's under 21. Yeah, he's finally stepping up here.

His lawyer, Frank Luciana, was a prominent and very expensive defense attorney. Who do you think paid for that? Very well paid for, yeah. Yep. He had no job. He had no money. Aunt Lillian paid for it all.

The state puts on three witnesses, the girl, her sister, and somebody else who saw her. So basically eyewitnesses who saw him break in there. The victims. Yeah. Now, there is no physical evidence at all of this, obviously, back then. There's no DNA or errors or anything. The girl admits on cross-examination that the police had showed her. her Bobby's photo before the lineup.

They tried to be cute. Oh, no. They tried to be cute and make sure they got the right guy. This girl is honest and didn't want to perjure herself. Right. Said that. And it ends up a hung jury. Shit.

Does not get convicted. So he's out and about for now because he's out on bailout stuff. Yeah, that's all the, we presented all evidence we have. And it's a hung. So if we keep trying it, we're just going to keep getting the same shit. Yep. So January 3rd, 1964, here, he's got some problems. Now, between, or January 3rd, we'll go back a little bit to 63.

Between June 4th and July 23rd, 1963, New York City detectives were working a pattern of robberies. Okay. One was in the Bronx. Five were in apartment buildings on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. This is the same neighborhood, by the way, as his grab-by-the-throat purchase. purse snatching in 1957, which in the late 50s in New York, there was tons of street crime. It was just crazy. So, yeah, so that doesn't mean anything.

Where there's people. That's the stuff that's going to happen. That's what happens, exactly. Now, the method here was the same of all of these. It was a neatly dressed, muscular young man, about six feet tall, give or take, who would follow a woman alone into an elevator, which is terrifying. We're in a lot of hotels. If ever there's like just a woman in an elevator and it's like past 10 o'clock at night, like, I won't even do it because I don't want to make her uncomfortable. I know she's going to be uncomfortable.

I know, and I don't blame her. So I'm a big guy and shit. Like I come across real nice and everything, but I don't want to make this person feel like, oh, God, am I going to be attacked in an elevator? Even though there's cameras and it doesn't matter. I lean against the corner of the elevator. Look at my phone. Like lean on the shoulder and just. Just text away.

Or just, I'll look at that a laugh at shit. I just open apps. I'm not doing shit. I just don't want to pay attention to this person at all. I feel so. I feel very uncomfortable. But if I see that,

like, because you can see like, they're like, oh God, it's a guy and by myself and all that. So I'll just be like, oh, no, I'm going up or whatever.

Like I'll, you know, I feel like they feel better about that. I don't want to be creepy. So even not creepy, just riding an elevator, but still it's, I get it.

That is got to be uncomfortable. A person that's vulnerable, the scariest. I've seen too many movies where they hit the stop and stand in front of it and hurt people. That's what I mean. I stand the opposite corner. All the way over there. And the other thing I'll do like. I'm the one worried about this here.

If we're in like the hallway too where it's empty in these big hotel hallways, I'll be on the far other end. Yeah. Just looking at my phone and make just a real quick up and down like, okay, I see you. I'm not acting weird like I'm going to jump on your own. Be over here. You can be over there. I don't have any interest. How many shows have we done where the housekeeper is a victim?

You know what I mean? I walk by those girls and I feel like they're judging me. Like they think I'm going to hurt. Absolutely. Hi. Hi. I try to be real friendly. Say real loud.

But not creepy. I don't want to feel like I'm trapping them in a room. Yeah. So anyway, this is what they, this is what happened with these elevator robberies. he would let her pick her floor first. Oh, you, please, you know, you go first, obviously. And then he would pick a lower floor than whatever floor they were going to. Once the doors closed, he would grab her by the throat.

And he would take her purse and any jewelry he could snatch off her while he had her by the throat. At his floor, he stepped out and let the doors close behind him. Then she would go up to her floor alone. So if they were going up, he'd pick a little. lower one and then let her go up. One of the victims said he had the look of someone who could kill without remorse. Which even if you couldn't, that's what you're trying to portray if you're

trying to rob somebody. Yeah. Yeah. You want somebody that wouldn't? You want to get that across. Yeah. So detectives get a recent booking photo of Bobby from the Bergen County Sheriff's Office and put it in a photo array. All five women picked him out.

All five. Wow. Yeah. So did the Bronx. victim who was a vending machine worker robbed at gunpoint while doing his night's collections. So this was actually for money. But that's a lot of money, a vending machine. You can get a bunch out of that.

And so he did this, robbed a man at gunpoint. Woman, he grabs by the throat, a man, he brings a gun. That's a lot about his psychology there. January 3rd, 64 is when he's arrested and charged with all six robberies. He admits it. He tells police he needed the money. Wow. That's it.

Which is weird because his parents and aunt give him money. He doesn't need the money. But he pleads, he pleads guilty to one of the elevator robberies and the Bronx robbery. And four other elevator cases are dismissed. They're just going to roll them into one. He got two five-year terms at Great Meadows. So five years, fuck off, to run concurrently. So five years.

So he's doing five years in a children's home in his 20s. Yeah, I'm sure there's a non-children's part of this. Sure, but yeah. Because this is an adult trial. Now, in New Jersey, his lawyer arranged another plea bargain. Bobby would plead guilty to the Closter gun charge and the North Arlington burglary, and the tire iron assault would be dismissed. So the only one left is that Fort Lee home invasion, which was the hung jury.

Wow. So this is a lot of serious crimes we're talking about here that he is. They're cleaning them all up and getting rid of them. Yep. He's rolled it all into a five-year sentence. All of these robberies. This is what having a very good paid lawyer gets you, and that's what he has. He'll end up serving just over half of that, by the way.

Now, a New York parole evaluation warned it might be essential to consider this case carefully. In our opinion, he will be a poor risk for parole. He has considerable potential toward criminal acts, particularly assaults. Right. They nailed him. Nailed him. Bad dude.

Yeah. In 1964, the plea deals also, it really, I mean, think about all the things that were dismissed. Elevator assaults, tire iron attack. All this bad shit gets dismissed. That does not on his record. So when you look at his record,

it looks like he had one robbery, one assault. It doesn't look like he's this big pattern, you know, awful person. So it's interesting. But they were trying to basically just clean it up and get this guy figured out. Every parole board later would look at his convictions and not see all that he did is the problem. They would only see the things that he was convicted for. Yeah. So it's interesting here.

They don't do that now, right? So if it gets dismissed because it's all digital and computerized, I know what you've been arrested for. and what's what you've done and what's been dismissed, but can still on future judgment hold you accountable because you're fucking dangerous. Absolutely. Here I think it was much more sometimes you'd get a whole case or a whole picture of someone. Sometimes you didn't. Yeah, because I'm sure that paperwork, if it's dismissed, just out the window of the car gets dismissed.

You're dealing with paperwork. You're dealing with at the time, you know, 90% alcoholism on the police force and all this. It's a bunch of detectives that drink hard and, you know, it's like, it's just, who knows what the hell people kept for paperwork. And paperwork just based on sheer mass and storage, if you're keeping track of the ones that are dismissed, that's got to be a warehouse of ungodly proportion. That's a huge place. It's crazy. So he's paroled in September of 1966. Yeah.

He moves back in with his parents and gets a job at a clerk at a convenience store. It has been a full life for this man. It's already. Wow. 66. 66. 26 years. Yeah.

That's amazing. Then he starts hooking up with women. He starts finding girlfriends. This is the first time this has really come up. But within a few months of getting out, he's got three women. He's kind of going in between in his orbit. Because as you can imagine, he's not real. He's not honest in relationships either.

He doesn't treat women well at all. One is a woman named Beverly Moles, who's 21 years old and is a bank teller in Fort Lee. who lived with her parents in Closter, so near him. She walked into the food store to buy some groceries in October 66, about a month after his parole, and they hit it off right away. Right. The guy who works here just got on parole. He seems wonderful. Yeah.

The second woman's a woman named Renee Ross, who was living with her mother in Teaneck, New Jersey. She had a young daughter and was in the middle of a divorce. Then the third woman he's seeing is a 27-year-old woman. named Judy Rosenberg. Now, he met Judy in late February 67 when Bobby took, Bobby's parents took him and everyone else in the family to a, to Florida for a family vacation. Sure. The trip was approved by his parole officer, so it was all above board.

Judy happened to be staying at the same hotel with her then four-year-old son, Eddie. That's how they met. She later said she fell in love with Bobby almost the moment she saw him by the pool. Is that right? And he's known as a handsome guy, 6-2, which is very tall back then. Muscular, strapping young man. She's into him. Problem is, she's also married.

Yeah. She's married to a guy who's involved in organized crime. Yeah, this is getting way more than you thought, right? Okay. Her husband, her husband, yeah, Alan Rosenberg was back in Chicago. He was under indictment and not allowed to leave Illinois, which, is why Judy's in Florida without him. And she didn't mind it because he's an abusive lunatic anyway,

so she didn't mind leaving him without him. Sure. So they all get home from vacation, and Judy ends up calling Bobby. And with a pretty crazy story she's got, not just, hey, how's it going? Her thing is, hey, my husband has been found dead in the trunk of his car with seven gunshot wounds.

What? Yeah. My husband is no more. He did his fucking wick where he shouldn't have been or something. Yeah. My husband got a mob hit on him, essentially. She was terrified because he had organized crime ties and she didn't know if they were going to kill her too. Maybe they were going to sell her.

You look at dresses one day. Yeah. You never know. So she begged Bobby, please come to Chicago. Please come to Chicago. So he went. No. He went to see her, which was not approved by his parole officer.

He never asked. He skipped work to go for a few days. And so they fired him at his job, which he has to have. for parole, so that's not great. It's going to be reported, yeah. April of 1967, he's living on unemployment and $50 a month from a worker's compensation claim. And Aunt Lillian would give him like $1,000 every Christmas, which is a lot of money back

then. And so he would live off of that for a while, too. Okay. So he had that. Now, every gift from his aunt, by the way, would make him resentful that it wasn't a bigger gift. He wouldn't say, wow, $1,000. That's great.

That's really generous. He would say she could afford 10. Why wouldn't she give me 10? She can afford 50. Why would she give me a thousand? That's what he thinks. Oh, yeah. He does a certain mindset that is.

He's not the only one getting things from her either. She's probably supporting a lot of people. Yeah, I don't know about supporting, but she's definitely helping a lot of gifting and doing things for people and whatever. I mean, she can't afford it, but also it's her money. So what the fuck? have to, right. Exactly. So April 27th, 1967, T-neck, New Jersey, a housewife named Bernice Kaplan, comes home at about 3.10 in the afternoon. She'd been dropping off Passover cookies for her mother in Hackensack. Nice. She put the kettle on for tea and started gathering laundry. A little after three,

now Bobby, who had left Renee Ross's house a few streets away. That is girlfriend number two, I believe. I think that's two. Left her house after that, a few, like we said, right around there. They believe that Bobby's route home crossed Bernice Kaplan's route home. He rings the doorbell. Now there's a small window. She looks out.

and she sees a well-groomed young man and a light-colored windbreaker and checkered pants holding dry cleaning still wrapped in plastic. So he does not look like a threat, number one. It looks like a guy who's delivering dry cleaning is what he looks like. So to rich people in a nice area.

So behind the, she looked behind the cur, look behind him and there's a newish-looking green convertible with a white top out there so he doesn't look like some guy wandered out of the woods or anything. He pulled up in a nice car. So she opened the door a crack. And he says,

Brantley? This is Brantley? And he's holding the things. And she said, you have the wrong house. And he smiled and he said, Brantley, it's not Brantley? Like, thought it was. And he's, you know, being friendly.

So he said, oh, man, really? This is the address I have for this. I don't know what to do now because this is what my boss gave me. I'm supposed to drop this off, but I have the wrong house. Do you mind if I, can I use your phone real quick to call? my boss because I got to get the right address. And if I drive all the way back there, it's going to screw up all my deliveries and, you know, I might get in trouble at work and all that.

So she hesitated, but then said, yeah, right, come in. Use the phone. Which is how my great-grandmother was murdered. Someone asked to use the phone and she let him in and tied her up and cut her throat and ransacked her house. Cell phone solved this problem in a blink, didn't it? Yeah. Fuck, yeah.

Absolutely. Now, the phone company later said that a call did go from a. her den, don't know to who, but it only lasted a second or two. Okay. So he got out and called somebody and then hung up the phone. He comes out of the den where the phone was, and he says, oh, my boss wasn't there, and he starts walking toward the front door. Everything's normal and fine.

She's walking behind her, behind him. Out of nowhere, he spins around and basically gets her in a chokehold. Right. With his forearm, around her throat. and says, don't scream or I'll kill you. Okay. All right.

He demanded money. She said, my purse is in the kitchen. But at that point, he didn't seem very interested in money, though, she thought. He then forces her up against a wall and rapes her. The money was just like a,

it's almost like he tells himself, I'm doing this for money, but it's not for money. But it makes it okay in his head. It might also be a distraction disarming to make them think of something else. Yeah, totally. Either one.

So he's doing this. He keeps his hand on her throat the whole time. At one point, she says, why are you doing this? Yeah. A good question. He said, I'm crazy, don't you know? That was his answer.

Oh, boy. Which is not what you want to hear at all. She said, well, my son's going to be home from school soon. he said if the boy walks through that door, I'll kill him. I have a gun in my pocket. Oh, boy. Okay. And she later told police his fingers seemed to be searching for something in my throat.

Like he was really enjoying having... Searching for something. Wow. He then sent her into the bathroom. She had to go to the bathroom and told her not to go out the window in there. Stay in there. I'll go out the window. She comes out of the bathroom.

He was standing by the front door, staring. at her. He was just by the front door making sure she came out of the bathroom. She came out of the bathroom and then he left. Went, got in his car, drove away. She ran into the den and called the police. Yeah, obviously. Now, while that was happening, a 14-year-old boy named Kenneth Strickland walked past the house on the way home from school. He liked sports cars and liked Volkswagen in particular. So he stopped to take a particular note of the car and really look at all the details of it. He noticed the shiny green convertible at the curb, and he called it a nice shiny car,

and he remembered two distinctive decals that were on the back as well. Farfugan or something? Yeah, I don't think they had that yet. Fucking should be called rape fignugin for all the serial killers that have this. So T-Nex detective started calling Volkswagen dealers and checking motor vehicle records for late model green convertibles. They got one back in the area. There's only one? Just one.

It's registered to Robert R. Relden of Cluster. That's it. That sucks. That is, he's like, fuck, I should have got a more common car. God damn it. What a dip shit. He had no idea. Oh, and then he's going to blame her for buying him a car that's so fucking.

So no to that. Why did you give me something so noticeable, damn it? You give me something so unique. So the Closter police knew exactly who he was. He's a parolee. so they can order him to come into the police station. He has to come. If he doesn't come, they go arrest him

and take him to fucking prison again. That's it. It's a violation. So on April 29th, 1967, they called him to headquarters. Didn't say what it was for. They said it was an unspecified police matter. Okay.

Just got to come in. Bernice Kaplan, the housewife, who was raped in her home, was brought to the station and looked through a one-way glass and said, that's the guy for sure.

Yeah, absolutely. She then looked out in the parking lot, saw the car and said, by the way, that's his car too. That green convertible is his car. And they wrote, that sure is. You nailed that one. So thanks, Aunt Lillian for that gift. Damn it. So June 2nd, 1966, it's his 27th birthday.

Happy birthday, you're indicted for rape. Hey, isn't that nice? So they have a rape trial in July of 67. Oh, good Lord. They have her identification, her identification of both him and the car. They have the boy outside the 14-year-old identifying the car very specifically by the details of where it was and a state police lab technician too. I don't know if there was fingerprints or something. Oh, that's what it was.

The technician testified that seaman was found on Kaplan's dress and on a tissue paper in Bobby's windbreaker pocket. He keeps jizz rags in his pockets. That's tissue paper. Oh, like a, I got it. Yeah, like tissue. Like a, like a toilet paper or a Kleenex or something. Gross. And that hair on the jacket matched hers in color and texture.

So on his jacket with the seaman, with his jizzrag in it, also had her hair on it, or at least matching characteristics back then. That's all they could do. So the defense called his two local girlfriends as alibi witnesses. Oh. Renee said he left her house at about 310. her mother said closer to 305, and Beverly Moses said he showed up unexpectedly in the parking lot of her Fort Lee Bank at about 330, even though they had no plans. Huh. So the defense is saying, he only had 20 minutes.

20 minutes, 25, he couldn't have stopped there, roughed her up, raped her, did all that, and then got to the bank in time. It's impossible. That's there. He'd have to be incredibly efficient at being a criminal. Yeah, those Volkswagens are not that fast. No, not particularly. They're like lawnmowers. So the jury gets the case at 205 p.m. And less than two hours, they come back and say, we're deadlocked, which you've been there two hours. You're not deadlocked.

You're, this is called deliberations is what this is called. The judge said, get the fuck back in there. An hour later, they came out and said, deadlocked. We got nothing. We got nothing. So the judge declared in a mistrial, hung jury number two on four. for him. Man, it helps to have a good lawyer, doesn't it? Yeah. So September of 67, two months later, they do a retrial. They're not letting him off on this one here. On the first morning of the trial,

Bobby asks to fire his lawyer citing, quote, drastic changes in circumstances, but then he would not elaborate. He wouldn't elaborate. He wouldn't expand on at all what those changes were. There's just some changes, man. I got drastic changes. Just trust me. The judge said, no, you got your lawyer. We're not delay in the trial anymore. This time the prosecutor was first assistant prosecutor who was higher up the ladder.

This guy became a judge later. Same evidence. This time, the jury convicts on all counts, though. Oh. The pre-sentence report, as they do a pre-sentence report to figure out where to send somebody and, you know, what level of, you know, supervision they need. The pre-sentence report quoted as parents. They said that they maintained their son's innocence in regard to the charge of rape.

They have arranged for a private treatment facility in Canada if the court would keep him out of prison. We'll ship him out of the – you won't even be in the country. We'll ship him away. We're going to get him help elsewhere and make him another country's problem. Yeah. This is what rich people would do, though, all the time. People would get out of shit all the time because they would make some kind of deal. We'll send them to a facility.

And, you know, it'll be out of your hair and jurisdiction. It won't cost the taxpayers, anything. If a cop or a police or a judge is looking at, like, recidivism and an opportunity, we're going to send him to a different country where they have no word of this. No, they don't know. We'll pin a note to a sweater, but, I mean, we don't know if they'll get it. Look out, rape. So it says, well, be careful, rapist.

I don't know if we'll keep it there. We're a son of somewhere where there's no parole officers. No. So according to the report, they, quote, cannot picture their son committing this offense as he has many girlfriends and further, he didn't need the money. So they're like, he has girlfriends and doesn't need the money. Why would he go rob and rape somebody? That's crazy. Which so did Ted Bundy again.

Same thing. The fact that he did and the witness and the person that happened to is right there and says he, did it. The fact that he did is crazy. That's so much worse. Can't be him. Can't be him though. That's what they say. So under the state's sex offender law, the judge sentences him to an indeterminate term at Rawa prison not to exceed 30 years.

So from zero to 30, somewhere in there is what you got. In prison, he's classified as a quote, special sex offender. You're a real scumbag, I think. Extra special. Yeah, extra scum. He was moved into the treatment unit.

The goal was to control what the reports called his repetitive compulsive pattern of sexual behavior. Now, he's a smart guy who knows what to do and knows how to operate in circles, basically. He becomes the main big shot of. the program. He's the star pupil, man. He's the shining example of what this program can accomplish. He's smart. He's cooperative. I can manipulate to turn it around. Yeah. Make them think I did because I'm good at this. He is good at this. There's even a guy, there's a skeptical staff members said that they, he had the Bobby Relden fan club while in prison, basically. These were several doctors who just loved him so much.

The number one, two, and three guys, William Pendergast. Oh, man, he's the assistant superintendent of the Rawa Treatment Unit, and later it's director. Yeah. They said that his staff worried that he was actually neglecting the other patients because he's basically acting as Bobby's full-time therapist. Just always up Bobby's ass. Loves him. One parole recommendation said, quote, this is this is a penurgeon. undergrad guy. If Redlin is released on parole, I predict that Robert Relden, I said Redlin

before, Relden, will become the most successful parolee in the history of the criminal justice system, which is pure narcissism on this guy's part too, because he thinks I sat down, I talked to him, I completely got through to him, it worked, I'm such a good doctor that he's fixed now. A, I fixed him. B, told you. so. Exactly. He even said, I find it hard to believe Bobby could have committed this crime. This is from the book we'll talk about later called The Charmer. There's a book on this. This is a November 1968 report to the special classification review board regarding Bobby's regarding Bobby stated that he had personally given a patient 100, this is Pendergrass said he

personally gave him 100 hours of general therapy and 70 hours of intensive therapy. Okay. He said that he was required to issue semi-annual reports on each inmate in the treatment center. The purpose was to detail the inmates' progress and recommend any continued treatment or parole consideration. Then they would make their own periodic evaluation of each individual and forward that to the New Jersey State Parole Board to review. Pendergrass said that at all these sessions with Relden generated, quote, terrific improvement and the development of a trusting relationship. After just eight months of treatment, he said Relden gained great insight.

He said the prognosis for a future positive parole recommendation is considered excellent. His subsequent report six months later was even more positive, if that's possible. he recounted 242 hours of therapy that he had personally conducted with this guy. That's a lot of therapy. I mean, if you're doing it an hour a day. I mean, if you did it eight hours a day like a job, that wouldn't take you very long, maybe six weeks, seven weeks? Yeah, for 28 weeks it would take you. But if you're doing it, if you're doing it six weeks, six weeks.

Two, three hours a day? Six weeks, yeah. That'd take you a long time. Fucking long time. There's a lot of other prisoners. there. Even fucking eight hours a day. Six weeks is a long time for every single day. That's a lot. So he said that. He called Relden the most intense individual the Rawa facility has ever treated. He said, quote, insight flowed from him like water. Yeah. Yeah. He then said, the young man was

able to ventilate his feelings for the first time in his life and to bring to light many repressions, hurts and rejections that affected his overall social maladjustment. In other words, exactly what a shrink wants to hear. Yeah. You've brought it all out of me. Now it's, he just, he knows what people want. He knows it to calm them is what it is. It's flowing now.

So you turn the tap off at your leisure. It's it. Well, no, he don't need to. He's flowed out all this stuff. And now that he knows where all these bad behavior came from, which I don't even think he did to begin with. Now he can fix it. Now he's fixed it because I'm brilliant.

That's essentially what it is. And I told you so. I told you I could. So he said after Relden's original admittance to the diagnostic side of the facility, doctors there had concluded that the convicted rapist, quote, showed a repetitive and compulsive pattern of aggressive sexual behavior. Prendergrast was not a psychiatrist. Though he held an MA degree in psychology, he supervised the treatment side of the center,

and now turned the diagnostic finding a little bit different. The Kaplan rape, Prendergrass said, was the result of pure displaced hostility toward Bobby's mother and not sexual and content or purpose. I bet she would disagree. I guarantee she disagrees. I mean, basically he's just saying it's not sexual, it's violence, which is what rape is most of the time anyway.

So especially a stranger rape. That's, you know, they said the May 19th, 69 report ends with the chief therapist strongly recommending him for parole. Parole was not granted at that time. In November 69, Prendergrast again issued his third report here. In his most effusive, this is from the book, in his most effusive account yet, the therapist cited more than 350 hours of direct treatment he had given Relden, noting the patient's tremendous, quote, zeal and initiative.

No one had shown such insight into his problems since the opening of the Rawa sex offender treatment facility, according to this doctor, who again recommended parole. He said there was a, quote, highly favorable prognosis in respect to, with respect to Relden's return to society. In support of his recommendation, Prendergast also provided the board with his own analysis of Relden's extensive criminal history conceived after he reviewed the man's rap sheets and discussed each entry with Bobby himself. So this is him. He's going to excuse away all of his crimes. We're going to line by line fix all of this. Wow. The SBI reports can be quite deceiving.

These are the rap sheets is what he puts. Without close observation, Relden's three sheets appear to indicate a rather long and extensive criminal history with almost 25 different offenses. However, when they're analyzed, there are only actually seven prior offenses. In reality, the Kaplan rape is only the second crime that involves any type of violence. Huh? Acknowledging that the rap sheets require an experienced eye for correct interpretation and disclosing that he did not see corroboration from the Bergen County prosecutor or any other law enforcement agency, this guy embarked on a concerted effort to downplay Robert Relden's criminal history and win his

release on parole, which is wild. This guy disregarded Relden's first known offense against women, the chokehold assault and robbery in Riverside Drive there when he was 16 and a half. He disregarded the five elevator assaults and robberies on the Upper West Side that had the same M.O. He disregarded the sexual assault of the 14-year-old Anna Maria Hernandez. He disregarded the assault with a tire iron on the North Arlington woman during a burglary, and of course disregarded the rape of Bernice Kaplan.

Well, I mean, besides all those things, yeah, he's, I mean, wouldn't you say it like that, he sounds bad, but. Pretty good guy. If you take out all of his raping and all of his beating of women, he's fine. Even with it, super fixable. It should be fine, yeah. He said that didn't mean Relden had not committed them or that a therapist should have ignored them. Despite this guy's unwavering intervention on his behalf, in November, 1969, they refused in parole again.

They did not deter to the chief therapist from taking up the cause once again in his next report, May of 1970, citing more than 440 hours of personally and delivered therapy. Prendergast showed an even more determined effort to get his release. In an unbelievable quote, he said that this is fucking amazing. He said, quote, he has dug to the core of his problem and has gained all of the insight necessary for a successful adjustment to society. All prior negative attitudes of all types are gone. Parole is again strongly recommended with a very high prognosis for successful

community adjustment. It is anticipated that Relden will probably be one of the most successful people who ever graduated from the Rawae treatment unit. Incredible. Okay. One other person from the program said Relden would be the poster child for the program because he was so good looking. He said all the right things. He could shine in front of the whole world. So they're looking at this as he's handsome. He's handsome and well-spoken. Yeah, so he could... If he looked like a crazy street person, then he wouldn't be a good spokesman.

Because people are afraid of him. But this guy, he can go in and go, I mean, they've turned me around. Now I'm doing great. I mean, don't you want the guy that's hideous that's turned around? I want that guy. I would want the guy who looks like he... Yeah, it looks like the most scary and you turn him around. This guy, yeah, it looks like, oh, you turn around a rich kid who, you know, whatever.

I want a mugshot of a wily-haired street urchin that... Yeah. that now is all clean. But they want to send this guy out as a representative of the program, so people will think this program works. They'll keep getting money for it and they'll keep their jobs. That's all it is. It's all these prisons are all just keep your job.

Another... Frat boys rape like crazy. A lot. Another person from the program said, Relden was very smart, knew the right terms to throw back at the psychologist to show that the treatment was working. Yeah, you can... And then they think, I did it.

Look, I fixed him. and they're excited. I told you I could do it. I feel like a mechanic and it turns over and really sounds good. And you're like, I did it. Look at that. You don't know what the fuck is someone just plugged in a spark plug. He was like, you had no idea.

So another longtime officer at Rawa, who later wrote a book about the prison, said he was such a good con man. Which is, he nailed it. Oh, yeah. October 20th, 1970, paroled. Uh-oh. He is paroled. Now, March 16th, 1971. William Prendergast, the guy from the prison who wrote all those glowing reports, goes into the hospital for back surgery.

Relden spent much of the day visiting him sitting by his bedside, and he left mid to late afternoon. Now, about 8 p.m., a 31-year-old woman drove into the garage of her apartment complex in Matuchin, New Jersey. a man opened her driver's door and put a knife to her throat. He demanded money, turned off her headlights, and covered her face and throat with his hand. She later said

so that I was completely muzzled and choked at the same time. She pushed her purse toward him and he said, quote, that's not what I'm after. I'm not after the money. Might be the most terrifying thing a person can say to a woman in that situation

is that's not what I'm after. Oh, Christ, what are you after? She ended up squirming away because she's in the driver's side. She crawls over the fucking console into the passenger seat because she only had her by a hand and crawls out the driver's door and runs away. Wow. Or crawls out the passenger door and takes off. He sees, fuck, that's gone now.

He doesn't want to be chasing a woman who's screaming through the streets because that'll draw attention. So he just walks away the other direction. A patrolman named Charles Moore took the radio call for an attempted rape at the apartment complex Now the woman gave a description Moore sees this man matching the description And said the thing that got

The thing that got me was the eye contact I immediately knew this is the guy We looked at each other right in the eyes Yeah everybody else to sees a cop who cares He looked to see if the cop is looking at him It's a certain look It's called eye fucking is what they call it It's called, I know I did something.

I mean, I don't look at cops when I'm driving, usually, unless I know that I was speeding. That's it. It's called eye-fucking, and the cops can, they know an eye-fucking. They know a guy on the street, they know he's up to something and he's eye-fucking him. So he said, I immediately knew this is the guy. The man, Bobby, ran into an ice cream store and slapped his hand on the counter. And then they're like, hey, I'm here to get some ice cream. Yeah.

Service, please. Here for this. So, here were the shakes. The officer tells him to freeze, puts his hand on his gun. You better freeze colder than that ice cream, pal. Fucking egg. You're going to get shot. And walked him out because the store was full of people buying ice cream.

Then Moore went back to the counter and found what had been stashed there, which was a blue-handled throwing knife. So he stashed a knife there. They said, what are you doing here? And he said, Bobby said, well, I'm in the area of visiting a friend in the hospital. Mr. Prendergast from the prison, the psychologist guy, blah, blah, blah. So Moore, this officer, and another officer, went to the JFK Medical Center in Edison and asked Pendergast. Prendergast, do you know this guy? And he said, well, he's my prized pupil.

He's the best. So he said, do you mean a teacher? Are you a teacher? And he said, no, no, I run the sex offender unit at Rawa. And they went, oh, perfect. This is our guy then. Our prized pupil, he thought, like, oh, are you a community college professor or something? Oh, no.

He's a rapist. Okay. You're doing terrible. Bad job. So March 23, 71, parole revoked back to Rawa. By the way, he pleads guilty to the last case that was hanging in there somewhere. Pleads guilty. Oh, that's the one that he just attempted rape on that one.

Right. They sentenced him to five to seven years concurrent with the case. the Kaplan sentence. So it's all part of this one sentence. Back in prison, it worked again. Charming, charming,

charming, charming. He's on point. One of the inmates, or one of the people there said he was entirely different than 99% of the inmates. He just knew what to say. He just knew how to play the game. Wow. He's not a street guy.

He's a rich kid. So he knows how to play the fucking game and how to make these adults from the tiny little. He knows how to get out of here. This is what he goes. Yeah. Another said, quote, all the Sykes couldn't figure him out. In fact, he had them all fooled.

That's what a prisoner said. Spring of 75, he's still in there now. He's been in for four years. He appears on a TV program hosted by David Frost. What David Frost hosts? David Frost hosted tons of talk shows in the 70s. But the thing you're thinking of is the big Frost v. Nixon that they made a movie at him. Right.

Frost Nixon. and multi-night interview with Richard Nixon after Nixon, you know, had quit and all that. But, yeah, so by the way, it's a fucking great movie. Even if you're not interested in it, it's a really good movie. So David Frost is a very well-known guy. Internationally, too. He hosted shit in Australia and England and America all over the place.

I don't know about trust. He wasn't a serious guy. No? No, that's why they were like, why are you doing a Nixon interview? You're a fucking, you interview like celebrities and like you're a, you're like, a party, you know, showbiz guy. You're not a serious journalist. And he was like, I know, weird, right?

Billy Bush. Yeah. If you see the movie, it was him. Exactly. If you see the movie, it's him trying to figure out how do I do this for real. How do I do this? How do I not be a fucking joke essentially? Because they're like, he's going to run you over. Dude, you're nobody. You're a loser. You're fucking you're Mario Lopez. What do you think of that?

You're not real. You're Kelly Rippa. Do you think, what are we talking about? He's a stray hand. So spring of 75 is when he appears on that. It's a special about rape titled The Unspeakable Crime. It's not quite unspeakable. I mean, we speak about it all the time. He, in it, Bobby speaks up for sex offenders and asks for more understanding and better treatment.

You just don't get it. That's the problem. Oh, yeah. One, and people were so impressed with his progress. he was chosen by the prison to be the guy to be interviewed. Oh my God. Because he sounds and looks the best. So you put him out there.

He's going to convince us that we got to have some sympathy for him too. Yep. And right after that, he's paroled. Wow. Right after you go out there, you make us look good. We'll let you out, I feel like is what it was. Quit pro quo there. So May 30 at 75, he's paroled again.

So he's 34 at this point. Okay. And the supervision was ordinary parole supervision. He reported to an officer. He's expected to have a job. You can't leave New Jersey, which is a sentence right there. Later, also, they said there was, when he gets out, he goes back into Bergen County. And one of the cops from the area said there was never anything criminal happening in the area.

There were no break-ins going on at the time. I don't remember a concern about safety at your home. It was very quiet. then he got out. And now he's out. So anything that happens, they're going to look at him first because he's the guy is fucking disrupting the apple cart here. So June 17th, 1975, less than three weeks after he gets out of prison, he is going to get married.

Oh. He gets married to Judy Rosenberg. The lady who's from Chicago. Yeah. The dead mob husband who, she met at the pool in Florida, 67. She waited through him the whole time. through all this. They moved into an apartment on Central Avenue in Tenafly, New Jersey, with her then 12-year-old son, Eddie.

Hey, come in. I'm going to move my 12-year-old in with a convicted multi-time rapist. This is a very good decision. Oh, my. Her other husband's a gangster. Wonder what her upbringing was like. I'm sure her father was a wonderful, wonderful man, just a great guy. So, yeah, I mean, I bet her father was a real piece of work.

So one person interviewed said this about him. He had girlfriends here. He had girlfriends there. Women loved him. They were all over Robert Relden. Telling you. He worked as a house painter at this point. And he also ran a small construction business around this time,

just his own little like handyman business. One job involved sandblasting and he had to rent a bunch of sandblasting equipment. Let's talk about that. Okay. The car he's driving. now is an Opal Station Wagon. Opel's a brand, if you don't know, if you're too young. O-P-E-L, Opel. They made little cars.

Witnesses described it as maroon or dark red, some sort, something like that, little station wagon. Now, let's talk about Susan John Stone Haines, H-E-Y-N-E-S. She's born July 23rd, 1947, from England. Oh. from Gloucester, England. Gloucester? Gloucester.

Whatever. She is trained as a midwife. That's what she's doing for a living here. Before she came to the United States, she'd worked in South Africa. She still has a bunch of friends there. She met her husband, Jonathan Haynes, at a party.

Yeah. And he said, we met at a party and we hit it off almost straight away. She was a very happy girl, a hugely warm, always had a smile and very social. Lots and lots of friends. Made friends very easily. He's British, too. Straight away is a British.

Yes, straight away. Absolutely. Yeah, he's British. Her engagement ring came from Harrods in London. Oh. He said, quote, looking at it sideways, it was shaped as an S and had a unique pattern of small diamonds and a central diamond. Not an overly expensive ring, but a particularly nice design, which we chose. And she, like, never took it off. She loved it. She wanted to get married. She was totally into it. They got married in a, in Warwickshire in England, in a 13th century church. God damn.

So, big deal. In 1975, Jonathan took a job in the United States, and they had to figure out where they're going to live. How are they going to get? Yeah. He said, we had the option of having an apartment in New York or moving out to New Jersey. And we drove around New Jersey, and northern Bergen County was particularly lovely, and we picked a house, and it was a nice house. There it is. They were more into the leafy thing.

Yeah. The house was in Haworth or Hayworth, H-A-W-O-R-T-H. Susan was looking for work at this time. So, October 6, 1975, 8 a.m. at the house in Haworth or whatever it is, Jonathan Haynes leaves for work. Susan stays home. She had a stack of letters to mail, including, I guess, a birthday present for her mother in England. Nice. Okay.

October 6th, same day, about 1 p.m., Jonathan calls home from work. He said, I telephone Sue at about 1 o'clock and everything was fine, and she was quite excited. She had a letter from good friends in Cape Town. One of the great friends was going to have a child. She was excited by that, and so we chatted for some length of time about that. I said, I think I'll be home slightly late tonight. Sure. So he comes home, about 5.50 p.m.

and he said normally Sue would come to the door and say hi but there was no one there the house was locked so I had to use my keys to get in I shouted

Sue Sue Sue Sue you fucking bitch where are you no come say hello yeah no he said no there was not a thing

out of place he goes through every room nothing's disturbed there's nothing like there's folded laundry there's no like knocked over shit doesn't look ransacked

he checks the garage and he said the car was shut, but the driver's keys were in the ignition, I believe, and the house keys were on the passenger seat in her car. So he's like, that's weird. So I'll read from the book here. And it gives you an idea. I guess they had had people over there over the weekend, three male friends from England. Jonathan had borrowed an XJ12 from work the previous week and left his TR7 for repairs,

which is a Jaguar and a triumph, I believe, right? It's awesome, yeah. Yeah. So they used the larger vehicle over the weekend to take their English friends to the Grand Prix auto races in Watkins Glen. Hell yeah. He then dropped the English guys off at their hotel on his way to work, and they were flying back home later that night. At work, he swapped the borrowed car for his own sports car, which had been repaired. Susan must have spent the morning cleaning up because he noticed nothing was out of place.

Yesterday's paper was on the kitchen table, opened to the jobs section, along with a felt tip pen and a notepad. Job hunting in the 70s was what that looked like. He called to his wife, got no response. He went through the house room by room. In their bedroom, he saw a tampon on the dressing table. Which he was like, why is there a tampon laying there?

That's weird. Susan was very private about personal hygiene. He said it was idiosyncratic with her. She never left something like that out for him to see. just not something she did. She had never, he said he had never ever known where she even kept her supply of them.

She just, I don't know where she pulled tampons on the new one? Yes, a new one, yeah. Yeah. That night, Susan was to go to the Bergenfield Adult School to attend a pottery class. Okay.

What she really had fun with, and she did it every week. Jonathan saw her clothing for class neatly laid out on the bed. In the bathroom, he saw piles of folded towels and linens. So he's like, okay, she did the laundry. He went and checked outside and checked the garden. There's nothing there.

So he went into the garage and looked in Susan's car. Her keys are on the driver's seat. It seems to be a little bit of a discrepancy over whether they were in the ignition or on the driver's seat. And her house keys on the front passenger seat next to a wrapped parcel addressed to Susan's mother in England. She had mentioned that morning she was going to post something home. and he said, okay, that looks like what it must have been. So he said maybe she walked down the street to meet him on his way home from work. Maybe she was walking down.

She was going to meet me. She never did that before, but I don't know, maybe. I don't have any better ideas. So he thought this is very too many unsusan-like things are going on right now. He got in his car and drove back along his normal route down the road that he thought maybe she walked on and there's no Susan. So he came back home and went around to the Slater residence, which is next door, to see if his neighbors had seen Susan. And Dorothy Slater said, yeah, I spoke with her about 3.30 p.m. in the backyard. A couple hours ago, Susan was taking in the wash from the clothes line.

The two backyards were separated by a low hedge, so they saw each other outside and were talking. All right. He said, what did she seem like? Was she okay? She said, seemed like her normal, cheerful self? I don't know. So her husband Leland accompanied Jonathan home to help him look through the house and just whatever. He said maybe Susan fainted.

Maybe she's lying out of sight in one of the rooms. Did you look like next? Did you go around the beds to make sure to see the other side of them? And he said, I guess not. Maybe not. So together, Jonathan and the next door neighbor searched the house, found nothing. Mrs. Slater and another neighbor, Mr. Belcher, arrived at the home. All of them looked all around the garden.

then in the basement, they moved everything out of the way to anything that could conceal a person. Maybe she'd lost consciousness and fallen. They found no trace of her, nothing, no blood, no anything. It's about 6.40 p.m. it's starting to get dark. And he said, okay, I got to call the police. This is crazy. So he calls. He phoned the police department, gave his name and address, tells the officer that his wife's missing.

He asked if there had been an accident or any other occurrence that might account for her absence. Maybe they asked him. Or he asked them. Has there been any car accidents around here or any kind of anything like that? Anybody hit by a car? And the dispatcher said they're not investigating anything like that, but we'll send an officer to the house as soon as we can. So the investigation starts and immediately narrows in on Jonathan. Right now.

Immediately. Yeah. They look at him. One of the investigators said in any case of a missing woman, the first person that a police officer will think of as a possible perpetrator, spouse or boyfriend, obviously, or ex-boyfriend, even better. Jonathan, he only figured it out.

He didn't realize that's what the cops were doing. He's English. It's different. You know, he doesn't know what the hell American... He just gave information that he's... Yeah. Yeah. He said, his friend pointed it out.

He said, my friend suggested that things might not be as easy as they seem to the police, and then it dawned on me, I might well be a suspect. Like, oh, shit, that's right. Friends? Fuck, yeah, they're not trying to help me. So after three days, they asked him, will you take a polygraph?

He said, quote, because this is the 70s. There's not true crime shows on every TV station. He said, I had no idea what a polygraph test was. I wouldn't want to do it again under any sort of circumstances like that. But he took it anyway, and he passed with flying colors. Right, because he didn't do it. So the investigator said there was absolutely no concern that he was involved in this disappearance whatsoever after that. Huh.

Because he didn't seem like it anyway. It didn't make sense. and his alibis all lined up and everything like that. But you add that with a polygraph. They go, okay, he's out. Probably didn't do it. So now the search goes crazy. Police brought dogs in going everywhere.

Hundreds of volunteers are walking fields, arm in arm, doing that whole thing, you know, by points and everything. At one point, they even brought a psychic in because they're out of ideas. Where could she be? We'll bring a psychic again. Jonathan said he rode along with the cops. He said, I traveled for days in an unmarked police van with police going around New Jersey trying to find indications of where Susan might have been. He said, nobody knew what they were dealing with. She said, was this, he, or he was thinking, what could it be?

He goes, does she have amnesia? She hit her head and she's wandering somewhere. She's wandering around questioning things. Some were using a different accent, not even being English and shit. Who knows? Weird questions. Then he said, was this some kind of political kidnapping? Had she been kidnapped by a professional body?

He said because at that time the United Kingdom was having trouble in North Ireland so he thought maybe just any English person they might take so he said but there was no ransom call or anything so that you don't kidnap someone for no reason

you do it for ransom whatever your reason is but it's not just I just want to keep you and look at you you know that's not what not a political movement would do you know a creep would but not a movement so July our October

9th and 10th, 1975, the disappearance makes the newspaper in the area. By the next day, the coverage is raising possibilities of a kidnapping. Investigators are reaching out to old contacts in Canada, England, South Africa. Has anyone heard from her? No one's heard from her. It's a crazy deal. So they're like a young married woman disappearing from inside her own locked house in the middle of a weekday afternoon in a safe area. With her car keys still in the ignition is odd. October 14th, 1975, about 4.45 p.m.

That was, before that, the 14th, that's when Susan Reeve, remember her from the very beginning, leaves her work at gray advertising, catches the commuter bus, 610 steps off the bus, driver saw her, another passenger saw her,

she's up the sidewalk going home. An investigator later on described the route that she would walk and said, Susan Reeve was walking up the sidewalk after she got off the bus on that far corner. She was walking in the direction of her home, which is further up Anderson Avenue, then all of the sudden she was nowhere to be found. Now, a witness said he noticed something was wrong when he saw her standing with a man near a park station wagon.

Okay, so he was outside the car about a quarter mile from her house. The station wagon was described as a dark red opal. Oh, shit. Which we know. Now, after she disappeared, about 40 feet from the corner, the only clue they found was an orange canvas mask used for sandblasting. Remember that? He's got a business where he rents equipment for sandblasting all the time to do things. Now, October 14, 1975, Susan Reeve at her house, she doesn't come home. Her parents waited.

Her father said, as time went on, we began to wonder and called. around to her fiance and to other people to see if perhaps she had a date and had neglected to tell us about it. Nobody had seen her. Her parents walked down to the bus stop. Her parents called the police. Her father said, I think we thought she might have been kidnapped, so we hoped we would receive a request for ransom. Because on TV, there was way more kidnappings than just, you know, I'm going to kill this woman and rape her type of deals. Please don't isolate that.

We beg you. Or I beg you, anyway. I don't care. I don't care. No, he doesn't care. So, no request ever came. He searched. Dad kept searching almost every day.

Wow. He said some clue would come about and I would search an area but to no avail. So about that night, that was beyond that, but we're still in October 14th. About 7.30 p.m. So this would be an hour and a half after she disappeared. A car pulled up to a toll booth. and Eileen Dalton is the toll booth collector, and she is from the Port Authority,

runs the George Washington Bridge. Other accounts, though, place her on the Palisades Interstate Parkway. Either way, toll booth. Now, she said the driver pulled up, had his radio up loud in a dark red station wagon, had his radio up loud, real loud, like overly loud to interact with a toll booth operator,

She said she heard a woman's voice coming from the back of the car, which is weird. She's quote, she heard something coming from what she thought was the back of the car, a female voice distinctly crying out, help me, he's crazy, help me, he's crazy, screaming over and over again. Oh, my God. Another, also, he's a maniac, she said. Now, this, a second attendant also heard this and believed that it was coming from his, trunk or the back area of the station wagon type deal. He sped off the driver, which is wild.

So then October 15th, 16th, the next day and the day after that, the police are connecting these two disappearances immediately because they're close by too. Jonathan Haynes said the police very quickly told me there's another young woman who had gone missing and they very quickly put the two together. I don't think there was any hesitation. So, I mean, this is a big deal. Now we're talking to young women disappearing from an area like this. Now there's helicopters overhead, door-to-door canvassing.

They're not fucking around here. One person who captained an ambulance squad said the whole town was on edge. It was just a chaotic time. Now, investigators had a list. They looked up recently paroled sex offenders, basically, which is what they'd still do now. that's still the first thing they do is look up if there's a thing they'll look up in the area around

it where are the sex offenders we're talking about the people that do this kind of thing yep so they pulled out six much mugshots of parolees and showed them to ilene dalton the toll booth woman she tentatively picked out robert relden as the driver

now an investigator later explained that quote they didn't have any firm suspicions about him it was a routine matter record of sexual activity, bring him in. So when they brought him in, it was just because he was a sex offender in the area. It wasn't for any other purpose. Then they also have a witness that back on October 6th, when Susan Haynes disappeared, a neighbor said that he saw her at 3.30 p.m. outside, so did that other next door neighbor. Her car was in the garage. The letters she meant to mail

were in the front seat. And she also said, this person also said they had seen a. red opal station wagon in the driveway. Haynes's driveway. In the yard, okay. At the time. So they gave extensive testimony explaining why he noticed the car and why it took him so long to understand what he'd seen because he didn't come forward right away. It took him a long time to figure out, oh, that was, oh, shit, that's the same day.

Now about October 20th, 1975, so about a week after Susan Reeve disappears off the bus, A man walks into a Macy's department store, and I didn't know you could do this. I didn't know Macy's was like a pawn shop back then. You could sell them jewelry at Macy's. Yeah, I think you could do that for quite some time up until fairly recently because it's not worth anything anymore.

It's so weird. One particular piece caught the clerk's eye. She said it was a very unique ring. It was an engagement ring, but it was a different kind of ring. It was made specially. Isn't that ass? It's the same thing.

Two days later, the man came back and wanted the ring back. Shit, they're going to be looking for that. Yeah, the store couldn't find it right away, and he got pissed. The person at the store said he had raised such a stink, made such a scene of not being able to immediately get the ring back. He screamed, causing all kinds of problems so bad they bring store security up to calm him down. So he buys the ring back for $100 in cash. I don't know what he sold it to them for. Later on, they will identify this man as Robert Relden, by the way.

The ring was, by the way, identical when given a description of it. This is exactly what the person from Macy's described. So he apparently made two other attempts to sell it. A jeweler named John Truncalli, who owned a jewelry store, testified later that Bobby tried to sell him a woman's engagement ring, very similar to a sketch of the Haynes ring. and another guy said he'd been approached too about the ring. And then another guy said, yeah, he tried to sell me that same ring. We never find the ring, by the way. Really?

He did sell it. Yeah. He sold it somewhere. So October, or threw it in a river. October 21st and 22nd, police ask Robert to come in for questioning. As a parolee, he is required to come in. So he does. The interview is recorded.

one investigator said he was very positive and he said, here's a diary of what I've been doing the last six months. So if you want to know what I've been up to, here it is. Robert did this? Bobby did this, yeah.

He told them he was in a strong financial position. He gave specific accounts of the days around the disappearances except one. October 6th, the day Susan Haynes disappeared from her house,

was the only day he did not have any entry for. No account. of that day. For October 14th, the day Susan Reeve disappeared, he gave an alibi that investigators later found out was at least partially false. He said he had a drink. He said he stopped at a bar not far from his house and ordered a bitter lemon, which is a non-alcoholic soda.

The investigator said, so the investigators actually went to that bar, and the bartender said they do not stock bitter lemon as a beverage in their bar. So they asked to... him to take a polygraph. Yeah. He said, I'd like to talk to my lawyer before I take a polygraph. And he left, and then he never came back for the polygraph. No.

Obviously. October 27th, 1975, Valley College, or Valley Cottage, New York. A man is walking his dog. This is Rockland County, by the way. A little bit upstate, not much. A man is walking his dog in a wooded area of Valley Cottage in Clarkstown, Rockland County. Now, he takes his dog for a walk here all the time.

It's like, by the way, this is about 15 miles from Susan Haynes' house in New Jersey where she disappeared, just across the state line. The man was trying to walk down a pathway to the shore of a reservoir, but the dog wouldn't go. The dog kept pulling in another direction. Okay. He said a dog kept dragging him off to the right. The dog pulled him toward a more secluded pathway, and there he discovered the body of a human being. Oh, boy. Bad dog.

You bad dog. You've fucking ruined my day now. But it's a body of a woman who is nude and face down. Oh, boy. They describe her as partially hidden beneath some broken off tree branches. Sprinkle some tree branches on her. That's disgusting. Sticks and leaves have been piled on top of her.

Right. Just whatever they could find. Snashed some foliage around. Yep. Around her neck was a pair of women's pants. Many hose, a stick had been threaded through it and twisted to tighten it. They used it so he didn't have to pull, you know, because that can take a while. So lazy and gross.

Lazy. The news obviously gets to Jonathan Haynes, and he remembered a friend's coming to him. He said, he came quietly to me and said, a body has been found. And I think at the time, we all realized it was most likely to be Susan. And dental records confirmed it. He said, I don't think many people in this world can imagine how bad that was. It was horrendous and something which has stuck with me forever. He noticed, by the way, engagement ring missing off her finger.

Gone. Yeah. Gone. The autopsy, they found out the homicide by strangulation. She'd been dead about three weeks, which put her close to around the day she disappeared. The key finding was her throat, the hyoid bone, small U-shaped bone at the top of the neck, was fractured. And one investigator said the body had been garotted around the neck with a woman's hose, a stick tied in it and tightened. So the very next day, October 28, 1975 at Tallman State Park, which is in Pyrmont, New York, there was employees there, state employees doing a job here.

They were checking a pipe to make sure the chlorine level wasn't too high. The park runs along the Hudson with marshland at the river's edge. One of the workers went over there and found something. He said, quote, well, the body was found off the park into the environments, into the environs of the river there. Park employees were checking the pipe to make sure there was not a high chlorine level, and a body was found lying on its back in the water with the arm sticking up in the air. Oh, fuck.

And one of the investigators said, the arm was a big deal. They said, but the body's not right. it could have been situated that way with the arm sticking up in the air, the arm would come down. Right. So they knew that this body had been placed here. This is very specific.

They said she was partially covered with broken off swamp reeds and with a panty hose ligature around her neck as well. So they found evidence she had been raped also as well as Susan Haynes and that her body had been moved after death. This is 12.9 miles

from where Susan Haynes was found the day before. So they disappeared from the same little area and ended up in another completely different little area. Yeah, 12 miles of them. Yeah. So now the press, this is when they put out everything, the Susan strangulations. That's what this is called.

So they're both named Susan. And remember, we don't know if this is psychologically anything to this, but his sister who got all the attention's name was Susan, if we remember, a little polio Susan there. So the doctor performs the autopsy. This is the same doctor who performed the other autopsy because it's a county coroner. Both women died of asphyxiation due to ligature strangulation. Both had fractured hyoid bones.

He concluded that in both cases, death was caused by ligature, assisted by the hand of the murderer. Okay. He estimated Susan had been dead about two weeks, putting her death right about the time she disappeared. he said in his experience, fewer than 1% of strangulations fracture the hyoid cartilage. Really? Fewer than 1% he said. He said two in one week from the same county with the same panty hose garot dumped a few miles apart in the same New York County is not a coincidence. Same guy.

And he said told the police they're both killed by the same person. This is crazy. So, by the way, since 1966, no other homicide in Bergen County had involved strangulation with a panty hose ligature. None. Wow. None. Of six unsolved strangulation homicides in the county over 12 years, only these two had involved injuries like this. So it's very specific what he was doing.

Incredible. So Susan Reeve had been dead nearly two weeks, most of it being in water and marsh. Yeah, that's not good. You can imagine the condition her body's. May? This is October. October. But still, in the water.

Her father was asked about identifying her, and he said, I can't even describe to you. She had been dead for almost a week. Actually, two weeks is more accurate. So it would have been very difficult for me to identify her, and it was impossible for her to have a normal funeral. She had to be cremated. That's fucked up. Her engagement ring and earrings were recovered from her body, though.

Interesting. October 30th, two days later, Relden tries to break into a home in Norwood, New Jersey. Okay. Okay. He had already been questioned about two dead women and now he's out burglarizing houses. Right. October 31st, Halloween night in Closter,

Relden burglarizes a home. Police were alerted. They got an arrest warrant for him and a search warrant for his car. He was arrested for attempted burglary. bail was set at really high, $750,000, which means they talked to the judge and said he is a major suspect in two murders. Pretty sure he's doing it. Yep. November 2nd, 1975, they announced to the press, though, he's not a suspect in these killings, not a suspect.

He's fine. He's fine. He's fine. He's fine. He's fine. He's fine. Meanwhile, they're putting together the orange canvas sandblasters mask that they found with him because he had rented one for a painting job very recently before that.

And a court record lists a sandblasters mask among the shit that he had rented. Yeah. November 13th, 1975, officers searched the apartment that he's living in with Judy. Now Judy Relden was Judy Rosenberg. They're looking for jewelry taken from the murdered women. They didn't find anything. They do find a California driver's license with Roberts, photo and a false name on it.

Oh, he's got fake IDs. Again, that's right there. Parole fucking, you know, revoked. He had several blank birth certificates and an address book. How do you get those? Now, I've heard of the way, there's this one

guy, I think Ghost in the Wires is the name of. There's a guy named Kevin Mittnick. If you look him up, very interesting guy. He was like one of the first big giant hackers. He hacked into phone systems. Sure. He hacked into all this type of shit. And when he was wanted by the FBI,

he went to some little tiny town in South Dakota, pretended to be a private investigator looking for something. They were super friendly, let him in there. Took some boy shit. He was looking for deceased babies that he could put that were around his age,

that he could make that. So that's what he was doing. And he had their embosser. So he embossed like 50 fake birth certificates and took them with them and had him. At any time he could change his fucking, He is... Turn into anybody right now.

Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. So anyway, it's a good book, by the way, if you want to listen to it. I got an audible. Very good stuff. So anyway, he's got an address book as well. In the address book was the name of a woman named Roberta Gimbel.

She was later interviewed about her relationship with him, and they seized his address book. November 75, they realized that he had access to a vacant house. Where? His aunt's... His aunt owns... house that's vacant in Closter. It's not her formal. Lilian's going, she's not you.

Yeah. So investigators bring in tracking dogs. The dogs detected Susan Reeves scent in two areas of the house. Oh, fuck. In the garage where blood stains, which matched her blood type were found, and in a second floor bedroom directly above it. What do you think was going on in there? He took her there.

This is fucking great. He had his own little private... Rape studio. Little rape studio. Yeah. The other one. a kid could come home, this could happen. No, no, this is his private little fucking place.

So January 2, 76, investigators report evidence from his station wagon. Vacuum sweepings of the interior turned up hair strands exhibiting the same microscopic characteristics as the head hair of both victims. So they've both been in his car. Also, tracking dogs detected Mrs. Haynes sent in his. car as well. So there's that. Pretty sure she's been there. Pretty sure. In June, he is sentenced to two to three years at Rawae for the burglaries, but he's not charged with murder yet, but they got him in prison and now they can put a case together here. So anyway, there's a woman named Irene Lippert. All right. Let's read from the book

here quickly. Irene Lippert claimed to have survived imprisonment in a Nazi concentration camp in Poland as a young girl. So it was ironic that she herself took a job as a prison guard in 1974. That is a little odd. She rose and ranked to become food services supervisor at Rawa State Prison. In that capacity, she oversaw day-to-day operations of the officer's dining room, the adjoining VIP room used when dignitaries or other special guests visited the prison.

Lippert supervised a staff of inmates assigned to her as cooks, waiters, and office clerks. The choice as assignments, basically. Sure. The head clerk and his assistant clerk got perks from the general prison population that the general prison population was denied. Like the same food the guards ate and even alcoholic beverages from time and time. So if you worked for her, you got hooked up. Not legally, but on the sly when no one was paying attention and the VI. VIP liquor cabinet could be jimmied.

Then the rules a little bit. A little bit. Makes them work a little harder. The duties were light, typing menus, inventory reports, and internal memos mostly. And Irene Lippert was away from the office for hours at a time, leaving the staff largely unsupervised. Okay. After entering into a plea agreement for the two burglaries he committed the previous October, Relden was sentenced in June 1976 to concurrent two to three-year terms at Rawa.

his pleasant ingratiating manner might very well have landed him in a cushy prison job in the ODR, but he already had an inn. During the latter part of Relden's previous imprisonment after Blanche, his Blanche mate conviction, that's the Kaplan one, he and Irene Lippert were at the Raway contemporaneously. He as a prisoner, of course, she is a guard, and they got to know each other. And as we know, he charms the shit at anybody. It wouldn't have taken long for Lippert to arrange Relden's assignment to her staff. He served briefly in the kitchen until Lippert cleared the way for him to become her head clerk. An inmate familiar with the ODR and Food Services Office later suggested Lippert and Relden had more than just a working relationship. Oh, no.

Obviously. If true, it may have simply been a friendship. She later admitted, I knew it was a rule. I didn't know it was a law. That's what I think the territory we're into. It's a real deal. Yeah, it's a real deal. She later admitted to taking a liking to Relden personally and testified on his behalf at subsequent trials, which is prison guards don't normally do that.

So in early December 76, Relden and his assistant clerk, Albert Barber, were sitting up in front of the prison auditorium waiting for the start of the Saturday night movie. This sounds like a party in here. What the fuck? There's been no, there's been nothing. mentioned of sitting in a cell for 23 hours a day. No, lots of stuff going on, food kicking,

fucking. When Barber felt a tap on his shoulder, it was Allison Williams, a man named Allison Williams. Not a lot of men named Allison that I found, really. It's, again, a cowboy name.

It's a cowboy, Allison? Uh-huh. No, that's not a cowboy name. That's a little girl's name in a skirt. Look, I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying there are a lot of cowboys

named Allison and Carol. Carol, I've heard tons of, because that's also like an Irish name too. But Allison, I've literally never heard of a man named Allison before in my entire fucking life. That's wild. Okay. Hey, you learn something new every day. Allison Williams, an old friend from Atlantic City. Real cowboy.

Yeah. Atlantic City Cowboy. A cowboy name. This makes no sense. Whom Barber hadn't seen in years. The two men, smiling broadly, jostled each other in a show of playful. exuberance. Allison explained that he and his brother Cliff, who was in the back of the room, had just been transferred to Rawa to begin serving five to seven year sentences for burglaries they'd done together.

Barber gestured for Relden to join him, started to walk with Allison to greet Cliff. He told Bobby, Relden, I have two friends I want you to meet. So Barber loved the two brothers, who had known since he was 12. basically they were, they said it had near celebrity status in the prison culture because they had pulled off some of the biggest heists of jewelry and cash in New Jersey history. Yeah. So, yeah, they said they were also known as the dinnertime socialite bandits, primarily because of their high-end clientele they targeted. I wouldn't call them clientele if you rob them. Targets, victims.

Yeah. They once targeted the wife of an elite Mexican effect. and also case the ski ski resort digs of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor for a possible jewelry score, which didn't work out. Holy shit. Check at the crown jewels.

Yeah, these guys are pretty goddamn kind of infamous here. And he helps them get a job, better jobs, and, you know, Relden helps them here. And by December 76, they're hanging out Cliff and Allison. And Clifford's sworn

statement said, quote, that Reldon said to him, I shouldn't have put them both in the same spot or so near. I shouldn't have put them so near together when they were talking about his case. A little regret. Yeah.

The same statement, he said that he felt by the reason he did bring him up there was he felt that if he brought him up there, that Bergen County wouldn't have jurisdiction and they wouldn't, it would be a big mess of who even would investigate this. Is it them? Is it New York?

So that's what he said. So Relden also said, he said kill in New Jersey, dump in New York, and confuse who could do the prosecution. So that's what he was trying to do. That's what he told them. They also talked about his aunt, as we'll talk about. January 20th, 1977, a grand jury returns indictments for murder for both Susan's. Fuck. Yes.

Four days later, he's transferred to Trenton State Prison. away from the two guys because they told on him. Because they're jewelry thieves. They're not murderers. They want out of it. They'll tell on a murderer to get a year off their sentence. Now, in Demarest, they said that everyone was freaked out. They were, they said, one guy said, everyone lost their spirit after the murder.

And he talked about raising his own daughter. And he said, I didn't want to make her paranoid, but I wanted to protect her. We've got to protect our young people. Yeah, we need them to be aware of their surroundings, but not necessarily. everything is a threat. Yeah, not enjoy your life. That would be ideal. Arthur and Barbara Reeve, Susan's parents, moved to Florida eventually here because

they both said they couldn't keep driving past the place where the daughter was taken from. They know exactly the corner she was telling you. They can't keep doing it. It's right on their street. They can't go outside without looking at it. So February 1977. Okay. Albert Barber, who was a convicted bank robber who we talked about, his prison

buddy with Bobby here. He said, I need some help with you, Albert. I need some help from you here. He goes, I need to find a killer on the outside. Okay, okay. Someone to kill on the outside for me. And they said, well, who is it? And he said, a woman named Lilian.

Want you to kill my aunt. So that I can be, big, bequeathed? And she's in her early 60s. She's got a house in Alpine. I need her killed there. The second target was her companion, a guy named Misha Dabich, a guy she hung out with. So he approached two fellow inmates. Can you get someone to kill her?

I'm going to need a big time attorney to represent me. So I need you to kill her so I get money, at least my inheritance, my part of it. And then I'll be able to hire a good attorney. The inmates said, we'll look into it. Instead of looking into it, they went right to the authorities and told on him immediately. So the Williams brothers agreed to testify immediately also. One prison official said it came through the grapevine because the grapevine in prison is really a gigantic thing. And he planned to kill her for money because he was in her will.

So this is fucking wild. March 8, 1977, Detective Nicholas Gallo of the Bergen County Prosecutor's Office walked into Trenton State Prison, all wired up for sound. He introduces himself as Frank Parisi, a hitman who's stuck in prison now. Okay. Relden meets with him at least twice that month and the conversations are secretly recorded. So he's got to pretend to be an inmate there. Yeah, I'm a hitman.

He's Donnie Brascoe in the situation. According to this, he gave directions to his aunt's house on a wooded street in Alpine. He talked about payment. And this is why he thought he was the real deal, too, because he's not talking about five grand. He's talking about somewhere for a rich person, a neighborhood like that, somewhere between 100 and 150 grand this is going to cost in 1977.

That's real money. That's a real hit man. And he's like, oh, shit. They said, well, the payout also can be jewelry, too, because you can take a bunch of jewelry from her and whatever you get from that. They said the signal that he wanted to kill her was when he told the investigator,

that's what he wanted done with his aunt, to slash her across the throat. Now, I have like the full transcripts from the book here of these conversations. We don't have time to read them all. But here's Gallo. All right. Now listen. Oh, no, this is what he tells Gallo.

All right. Now, listen. You do like, you do this like I tell you. It's one, two, three, in and out, pop. And as a matter of fact, I can get you right into the house. Your bit is that, good morning. I'm an investigator for the law firm of Williams and Connolly, a law firm from D.C. We like to ask you some questions.

She'll let you write in the door. He's saying this is how you killed my aunt. Yeah. Now, Gallo said, you're going to have to have to have this written down for me because I'm not going to be able to. I ain't going to be able to remember all this shit, which is evidence is what he wants him to write down. I need you to write in your own handwriting if you could. I really need you to put a conspiracy in your own handwriting if possible. Is that all right?

Did you sign and date it? So, Relden tore a few blank pages out of a small notebook and gave them to Gallo to take. notes. He said, I'm not writing it down, but you can write it down. Oh, okay. But he wasn't about to put on anything down on paper himself. Relden then proceeded to lay out the plan. He told him to expect no weapons in the house, and it's only his aunt in her 50s and her companion, a man about 40 who would be there. Oh, she is. She's doing it. She's fucking bagging some younger guy. This is hilarious. She referred to his aunt's companion as a, quote, stone cold punk and said she'll give you more problems than he will.

Really? Yeah. Yeah. He's a little bitch. He's just a boy toy toy. Yeah. He wants to bang a social security age woman for money. Yeah, he's not. Smooth-chested man trying to

get a retirement out of this. That's it. I mean, there are a lot of trips to nice places. I mean, if it was going to go to a knockdown fight, she'd jump on you before he would. You know what I'm telling you? The woman, the female, is the deadlier of the species,

he says. This is quotes from thing. Gallo said he is uneasy about carrying a gun on the job. And Bobby said, well, you got to take it. How else are you going to go there? I mean, and Gallo said, do I have to use a gun? And Bobby said, it's the best. And Gallo said, well, what if I'm stopped on the way there carrying a gun?

Then I'm going to get busted for that. That's stupid. So they continued to discuss the, what weapon? It's going on and on. They draw out detail after detail. and I need you to do that. I mean, it really, basically, Gallo would elicit, he would, like, disagree with him at times

to get him to explain even more. You know what I mean? Getting up the roadmap the whole thing, not just the way to the place, but the actual event, this is how I want it done. You said eventually that Relden won the argument about using a gun, but only after he became visibly agitated

is when the other guy gave in. He was like, okay, I don't want to knock him off the hook here. So, Relden said, yeah, but if you see, if you get them both, get them both, you know, if they split up on you when you got one going this way and one going that way, you can't start to chase one than the other. Forget that part. Then you can take them down. Even if you don't take them with the first shot, you take them down, they don't get out of the house. They don't get a chance to get to that wire, the phone, you know what I'm saying? and Gallo says,

all right, all right, then worse, I'll have to dump it, that's all. It's just figuring out what to do with it. It's kind of an inconvenience is all it is. I got to get rid of the fucking tully.

What do you want from me? So now that you're talking about specifics of the job, and he said, yeah, now what are we talking about, Gallo ass? You know, you show me a lot of figures before, so what are we talking about?

Reldon had written down and showed him during the window visit earlier. You're talking about the ring alone is worth a hundred thousand. and Bobby said, the ring alone that she's wearing is worth $100,000. So this guy said

she's going to have this and he said she wears it all the time. She wears it to bed. She takes it off maybe to wash dishes, you know? The jewelry, she's got a star sapphire that's 40 carrots surrounded in diamonds. Shit. Rich. What is that?

The one from the Titanic? It's crazy. 40 carrots. She's got, you're talking about another hundred thousand, it's probably not 40 carrots. No way. She's got, you're talking about another hundred thousand dollars minimum worth of jewelry. You're talking about a minimum. You're talking about retail, $250,000

of jewelry, wholesale. So Gallo says, what about the cash in the house? And he said, you might get lucky and find some cash. It'd probably be in her pocketbook. She didn't have any other hiding places that I know of. And Gallo said, sounds strange. She must be a weirdo. And he said, she is.

Don't worry. So they discuss how he got, how the aunt got her money and all that kind of shit. And Relden also tells Gallo to contact his wife, Judy, when he was planning to do the hit just to make sure that both his aunt and her male companion were home since they traveled a lot. So now he's brought his wife into a murder conspiracy as well. Anytime he said, quote, anytime after May 1st, it's your party. Your party. Your party.

He said you might have difficulty moving a 40-carat staphire given its size and, you know, but here's a name of a fence in Chicago that might be able to handle it through his wife. My wife knows some people, yeah. Yeah. So Gallo said, you got no qualms about this broad now, like killing her? Yeah. And he said, I would have done it myself. What qualms?

And he said, well, you know, what's why I asked if she's a relative? He's like, you don't mind. Just want to show how cold she is. he said she's an aunt but only by marriage which that's not true actually she's actually related to him but he saw this Italian guy being like

you want to kill your aunt that's fucked up you know you get that oh no no no by marriage don't worry and she's a real bitch quote unquote he said you know she uses that money she makes my mother's life miserable

see I don't I don't depend on her yes you do yes you do he said and all these other people like every year she gives them a couple thousand dollars for Christmas and does her bit but she dribs and drabs it out so she can control them and then if you don't do something she wants oh you're not getting your check this month she told me once i said to her you know what you can do with that fucking check stick it up your ass i may blow it in a poker game one night oh he's gonna be a hard ass

about this you rate people hey how dare you only give me two grand this month fuck you scum like wow reldon said that's why i'd say that's why i'd say she'd be the first one that they would come to. I'm barely on speaking terms with her. He said that she had previously spent $75,000 for an initial retainer from her lawyers, for his lawyers. He said it came from his own funds, which is a complete load of horseshit. He doesn't have $75,000 fucking dollars.

So anyway, it goes on and on and on. Relden said there's no way I could have set up an airtight alibi and do this thing the same. time. That's why I'm telling you and that's why and that and they would have been, uh, dead in my ass. I don't know what that means. Oh. Dead on my ass. Dead in my ass. Yeah. Dead in my up in my ass. Um, yeah. Uh, galo said, you must have a good rep. And he said, yeah, I do. Uh, you know, I've had a long run for years and they knew I was doing shit. I was living on top of the world and never done no time. And then everything fell at once and I've been doing time for the last fucking 10 years or more.

So anyway, that's what we're talking about. He just completely, you know, whatever. He wouldn't talk about the exact details of his murders that he did. He just lies over and over and over again. He's got another murder to worry about here. Yeah. So, yeah, he even talks about I can help you with a lawyer. I can do all this shit.

So anyway, this is what's going on. So later on, a jury is going to hear four hours of. of this shit. Okay. March 15th, 16th, 1977, Relden wrote two letters in this week here.

One indicated his plans for his aunt were progressing smoothly. The other discussed progress with his lawyers and progress toward his aunt's murders. We don't know the actual text

of those letters, but that was the gist of it. 177, March 18th, that's when authorities place a tap on Judy's phone, his wife. Uh-oh. Four days later,

Later, Relden's lawyers visited him at Trenton, okay, to tell him that they put a wiretap on your wife and they got a bunch of information. March 30th, 1977, he's arrested, well, already in prison for conspiring to murder his aunt and her companion. So he's already, now he's indicted, and there's that. April 11th, 77, he's got no lawyer, his attorney withdrew from the case. Because he's got no money. He's got no money.

So he wrote to the prosecutor's office that he would continue without counsel. Three days later, the Williams brothers were transferred to another facility for their own safety. April 21st, 1977, they indict him on five counts, two counts of advocating the death of Lillian Booth, two counts of advocating the death of Misha Dabich, and one count of conspiracy to murder them both. Okay. He said, this is his excuse. It was a hoax. The whole thing was bullshit. I was just trying to needle the prosecutor.

I was just fucking with him. Frustrating him. By giving him evidence of a conspiracy to commit murder? That's not frustrating. That's handing him a gift. That's just giving him more work. You might as all had a dozen roses delivered to his door. Thanks.

It's all a hoax. You gave him a slam dunk. Wow, that is all a hoax. That is, um... All right. That's some shit here. Then, Lillian, to court. She sat with him in court right behind him. She never removed him from her will,

and she wrote a sentence and said, quote, I did not believe my nephew would hurt me, nor do I today. She thought it was all bullshit, even though she listened to the fucking four hours of tapes. Still didn't buy it. Now, investigators believe from the beginning that everything he's done is sexual motives. It's all sexual. Rape of Susan, the pantyhoes. the method. Self-grantification. He likes to choke women and rape them. That's what he does.

Jewelry was taken, but then it wasn't taken off Susan Reeve, and it just doesn't, he has, he can get money, so it doesn't make sense. One guy said, he just felt animosity toward women, and I think that this hatred caused him to reach out and rape. Reach out and rape someone. That was a bad commercial. They really, AT&T got rid of that one, or MCI, whatever it was. They're like, this isn't, this isn't good, right?

This is positive at all. I feel, I mean, they're a small group. It's a really small audience we're playing to here. We're not everyone to use our phone. He really was going to kill her. Yeah, oh, yeah. Then he became the chief suspect. William Prendergast, the Rawa Treatment Director, who championed him.

They asked him about it, and he said, Bob Reldon is a brilliant man. That was his response. Brilliant man. Okay. So trial number one is the Aunt Lillian plot. Uh-huh. Because that's what they do first.

They have a shitload of evidence on tape. It's a stronger case. Yeah. So apparently Lillian was worth millions. He was facing murder charges and needed a big time attorney. Big time. Killing her would get some money. That's the whole motive here.

So all you really have to play is the goddamn tapes. Tapes. Yeah. And you got pretty much everything here. The jury deliberates for about four hours over two days. which seems like too long, and they convict him on all five counts. Barber,

his buddy there, was convicted on the single conspiracy count, and Relden faces a maximum of 63 years for this. The judge sentences him to you, sir, may fuck off. 20 to 25 years. Barber got two to three years. Now, that's 20 to 25 years.

He's already serving time for burglary, and he's got two murder trials now coming up as well, two murder charges. Lillian went home to Alpine, didn't change her will a fucking drop, left him in there. Yep. So right away,

before the trial, he's trying to say, well, both bodies were found in New York, so New Jersey doesn't have jurisdiction over this and all that kind of thing, but they said that both of them were from New Jersey, taken in a car. There is evidence at the aunt's house, sent evidence that they were there,

So there was plenty of evidence to think they were killed in Jersey and dumped there. So it's Jersey's case, basically. Then there was severance. He wanted two separate trials, one for each Susan. Oh. Because he didn't want one jury hearing about the other murder while they're deciding. The court said no. Said no, both victims were in their 20s, similar size, taken from the same area, found nude and isolated spots close together in New York, same murder weapon, same ammo, fractured high-oite bones.

The judge wrote, the manner of these two murders and the disposal of the victims in the case at the bar is so unusual and distinctive as to mark the crime as having been committed by a single individual. Okay. So that's that. One trial, two Susan. Two Susan. All right. The twosens. First murder trial here begins.

It's largely circumstantial. Uh-huh. The ring thing that they never found. people's recollections of the ring, the sandblasting mask near the bus stop, hairs in a station wagon, a diary with one day missing. Yeah. Not a lot going on here. He has excuses as well. Sure.

He's got plenty of excuses. He's got reasons that his car would be seen with these people. Yeah. He said that Reldon approached to sell the unique engagement ring purchased in London. the defense position was that a ring, it was a ring that looked like hers, not her ring. Okay. Very specific ring that he happened to try to sell right after she disappeared, but it's just a coincidence. The mask also, they said there's plenty of masks out there.

They said a rented mask is a common object. Many painters rent them. A mask near a bus stop proves that somebody was near a bus stop. So the prosecution said, well, this particular mask had been rented by the one recently paroled sex offender. who had a gap in his diary out from that day. So then they bring in the inmates who he told all about this. They made sworn statements saying that he told us all about these murders. Now the defense absolutely jumps all over them because they're inmates.

That's what it is. And they're liars and they're doing this for their own, whatever. So a jury gets in. They cannot decide it is deadlocked. A judge declares a mistrial. God damn it. Apparently it was seven to five favoring conviction. How does this guy keep doing it?

Keeps good lawyers. One observer said, quote, he made an impression on many that encountered him. Good looking young man, well-dressed, well-to-do family, polished, charming, looked like an everyday upper-class gentleman. He had a very commanding presence. That's all it is. One said he was judged by many to have been the attorney, and his attorney was thought to have been the defendant when they walked in.

They thought he was the attorney, by the way he carried him. himself. Wow. That's something. Second murder trial. They fucking redo it. October 79. Sherry Ann Stevens here during this is a supporter he gains during this trial. We'll get back to her. A woman who likes him. So they're trying to figure out, trying to decide whether the jury can hear about basically a signature, saying that signature in a murder is like a fingerprint almost. Yeah. Same signature. So they were trying to figure that out. Also, during this whole thing, a juror tells the judge that he received a letter in the mail.

Inside was $100 cash, $100 cash, and a promise of $900 more. I guess apparently it was a contingent on him being convicted. So if you convict this guy, it'll be another $900 for you. God damn it. So that's interesting. Either way, it was a sealed envelope of cash. So the judge met individually with each juror to find out who had seen or heard about the letter. Another bribery letter was found delivered to a different juror's.

In the end, five letters are recovered altogether. Only two had been seen by the jurors. And the prosecutor, of course, accused Robert of fucking sending these. Nobody was ever charged with sending them. the judge dismissed some jurors but denied a mistrial and then sequestered the rest of the panel and had their unopened mail

confiscated by the court before they could see it just in case. October 15th, 1979, this is fucking amazing. I'm telling you, Ted Bundy fucking, these guys should have been

written around the car together all over the country, like road tripping. They would have loved it. Thelman, Louisiana. Oh, totally. in hands. Relden was being held in a room off the courtroom dressing for court.

They let him go in there. According to a summary here, the guard who was guarding him, Joseph Vowcolo, didn't frisk him after he dressed. Okay. Just didn't do it. Just habit and whatever. Okay. Relden pulled out a chemical spray described in different accounts as mace or tear gas

and sprayed the officer in the eyes. took him down. Somehow he had a key to unlock his handcuffs. Smuggled it, somehow got it. We don't know how, but he got his handcuffs off. And one person said, my law clerk came running in, locked the two doors and told me, stay where you are, I don't know what's going on.

What's going on is he jumped out a fucking window. Gone. Just like Ted Bundy. Same shit. He leaped about 35 feet from a three-story window. Third story. What the fuck? Yeah.

But then another person said it was a second story window. From the documentary, someone said he jumped out the second story window, broke both ankles and still ran. Ran away on numb ankles. The crazy part is Jonathan Haynes is there for his wife's murder trial. He said, I ran down the stairs of the main part of the courthouse out into the car park. I was running trying to find the guy. I was going to get him. I'll whoop his ass.

My ankles are working. Yeah, both my ankles work. Both my normally weak English ankles, they work now. They're only made for soccer, not for jumping out of things or any other sports. He did not get to him. Did he say it was the third story? Because isn't that the third story from Britain in Britain? The second story?

Yeah, we figured it's not that. It's just different accounts. I thought that's what I thought of first two. I'm like, maybe he meant that. but no, it's not that. Yeah, we learn that from crime and sports. He gets to a car. He carjacks somebody and takes their goddamn car.

Oh, my God. With police chasing him, he crossed into New York State. And finally, near Tuxedo, New York, the stolen car goes off the road into a ditch. He tried to get away. He's going to Canada. Who the fuck knows? He was taken into custody, taken to the hospital and tuxedo. Wow.

He was out for about an hour. Yeah. at large. He appeared back in court the next day in a wheelchair. So the verdict comes in. This is two days after his escape, which, by the way, doesn't look great to the jury. Not much.

No, no, looks kind of bad. We were here. Where were you, dickhead? You know, thanks a lot, making us feel like we're fucking, we don't matter here. Appreciate it. They find him guilty of first-degree murder in the death of Susan Reeve

and guilty of second-degree murder in the death of Susan Haynes. I don't know how they got to that, but they got to that. The judge said, quote, words are inadequate to describe the abject evil of these depraved acts of murder. He also called him his outrageous record

and especially heinous and cruel and depraved manner of the killings. You, sir, may fuck off life sentence for Susan's Susan Reeves' murder and a consecutive 30-year sentence for Susan Haynes' second. Second degree murder.

Oh, boy. Life plus 30. Eat dicks. Get out of that one, shitbag. Then he was indicted for the escape and the assault on the officer, the tear gas, the carjacking, the robbery. That'll get you a whole bunch. Well, he's convicted for those and sentenced to you, sir, may fuck off. 22 years, again, consecutive to the life and the 30.

That is a, oh, man. Regretful hour. Life plus 52. Yeah. Holy shit. A hour gets you 22 years. Wow. Now, 18 months after the window incident, he was taken from Trenton State Prison to the

emergency room at St. Francis Hospital in Trenton. In the hospital lobby, police found Sherry Ann Stevens, the chick he made friends with at that fucking trial, she was this supporter. She had a bag. In it were extra clothes and a loaded 20-gauge shotgun. How big is this? This bitch was going to break him from the hospital. Yep.

They described it as a sought-off shotgun in a shopping bag. Oh, Jesus. The authorities knew about it, and she was arrested before she could reach it. They figured it out. So that's pretty crazy. She pled guilty to conspiracy to commit an escape and possession of a weapon for an unlawful purpose. She got five years with three years of parole ineligibility, and he gets another 15 years for that. May 11th, 1982, both murder convictions are thrown out.

Why? Reversed. This is fucking insane. Apparently, they did not agree that the 1967 rape and the 1971 knife attack were distinctive enough to count as a signature for him. So they told about past crimes that shouldn't have been there, is what they said. The court said, we cannot view the error as harmless when as he, the potential for prejudice in having two women describe defendants, brutal rape and assumed rape is so obvious. So the New Jersey Supreme Court declined to review the reversal in 1982.

Convictions are gone. He's still in prison. Don't get me wrong. Then, 1985, they're going to try him again, but the court suppresses the results of the vacuum sweep from his car. Without it, the hair evidence is gone. So they appeal to the Supreme Court who says, fuck that, hair's back in. Run it. So they have another murder trial for him.

Oh, boy. Another murder trial for him. It's fucking crazy. So the verdict comes in. They convict him again. Okay. Second degree murder for Susan Haynes. First degree murder for Susan Reeve.

Exact same thing. Sentencing, you, sir, may fuck off. Life sentence for Reeve, consecutive 30-year term for Susan Haynes, exact same sentence. Go fuck yourself. What's the deal? A bunch of money. Then, during appeals, it's affirmed in

1989. Supreme Court denies to review it. Early 1990s, he tries to change his name. The prison administrator, until 93, was a man named Howard L. Beyer.

Relden positioned a petition to change his legal name. He wanted to be Howard B. Jr. and the B. stood for buyer. He wanted to be Howard Byer Jr. Just to fuck with the guy. Wow. Yeah. They said, you can't do that.

He said, well, it has nothing to do with the warden. And they were like, really? You're going to name yourself the war. It just has nothing to do with it. The prosecutor said, yeah, it does. So New Jersey, normally, you can call yourself whatever you want. And courts deny formal name change is only for fraud. And they said that this could help him hatch another escape plot. Yeah.

So he doesn't get to be Howard Byer. They don't want that. They said one ACLU representative said, if you wanted to change his name to Mickey Mouse, you might have had an easier time doing it. Well, yeah, because that's even more. I'm sorry. Well, that's easier to find when you escape. Right.

Some guy calling himself Mickey Mouse. So anyway, he would stay that name. March 27, 2001. Here, he's 60 years old. He's cited for an attempted or planned escape on this day. and given 270 days an administrative segregation. He appeals a bunch more

based on a lot of different factors. From 2001 to 2004, he's asking for DNA testing of the hairs vacuum by his car, a vacuum from his car. There's a hearing denying the motion. They said that the evidence of guilt is so overwhelming

that even if they found those hairs didn't belong to them, you'd still be guilty. So who cares, basically. It's just, they said the hairs would not exculpate him, rather at best, might indicate that those particular hairs were not those of both victims.

Yeah, it might tell you that there's another person that we need to look for. Yeah. No shit, another victim. November 22nd, 2007, Aunt Lillian's dead at 92. Yeah. Her estimated values about $220 million at this point. She leaves Robert income from a trust worth $8.9 million. Wow.

She gives this fucking idiot. Yep. Wow. His mother was, his mother Marie was already dead, so her share passed to him as well. Another $8 million. I'd think something like that. So he's got all this fucking money, obviously the richest guy in Jersey prison, basically. Now, her longtime companion, though, Misha Dabich pursued a claim against the estate and reached his own settlement as well.

Like, I should get something because he got left out. So they said, yeah, you should get something. So 2008, the Reeve family decides, we're going to fucking sue this guy. Yeah, he's got money. Let's sue him. Yep. So they sue him. Now, the problem is she's been dead for 33 years.

New Jersey law passed in 2000 had removed the statute of limitations for murder victims, but only for economic loss claims. Claims for pain and suffering still at a two-year deadline. So they went back to the lawmakers who wrote the law, got a sworn statement from the bill's original sponsors, saying. they never meant to take to make that distinction so a new bill to fix it was passed in 2009 okay um now july 2009 he was cited for using a for refusing a work program assignment and for tattooing himself or self mutilation all right um he also took programs anti violence courses

education over 30 years of counseling with chaplains and other people um september of 2010 the party settled for about $10 million. Wow. The Reve estate would receive $700,000 up front plus the income from the $9 million trust for as long as Relden lives. Oh, shit. Yep. Relden kept about $200,000 plus $2,080 a year deposited into his prison account and $50,000 a

year for life if he was ever paroled. Oh, my God. Yeah, which he's not going to be parole. He's just going to have all this money sitting there. there. It's fucking crazy. And they said that they ended up giving it all to a scholarship. They didn't keep any of this fucking money. They kept it all, they gave it all away. The parole years here, he became eligible for parole in 2008. He's denied in 2009. Now, they've rated him as a moderate risk, a psychological evaluation. All of his programs have dropped his risk assessment level

too. But they keep looking at his shit and they're like, nope. Not this guy. Yeah. Nope. And also over time, he changed it. He started saying he did actually kill those women because he had to admit it, but he described it as spur of the moment. It was on impulse. And they were like, no. He got so mad at one point during a hearing. He said, you should have killed me if you wanted to get rid of me. He yelled at the fucking parole people here. Um, 2023, uh, the parole board denied again on a 36 month term. They said actual violent behavior by Relden has not been demonstrated in four decades. That's what they said. But they also said refusal to consider a more, uh, congregate setting, which made release hard to support. He's never shown that he's violent while in prison. He does it when he gets out.

Exactly. That's the whole point. So, um, anyway, that we know of. He is pretty fucked. He's 84 years old in 2025 when he's going for this. He's got hearing loss and enlarged prostate, arthritis and everything, and cataracts. And he's not eligible yet for compassionate release, which is for older, older people. He's got $2 million sitting there probably, right?

I think so. Now, here is the main thing I wanted to get to also. When you look this guy up, if you look him up on Murderpedia, it says his victim count is six to eight victims and lists all these people. He did not kill these people. That is ridiculous. It's been falsely attributed. They tried to link him to six more killings. They even said one account of him said he liked to pick his victims off in pairs.

Oh, what? So there's all these different things. Mary Ann Pryor and Lorraine Kelly, 17 and a 16-year-old who disappeared from North Bergen in 74, their bodies were found that same year. He was in prison during that. So he definitely, they had just, they put that on his murderpedia. He was in prison. In April 2021, a guy known as Richard Cottingham, known as the torso killer pled guilty to those murders. We heard about that.

Doreen Carlucci, 14 and Joanne Delardo, 15, vanished from a church youth center in December of 74. He was in prison for that, too. It's still listed under his shit on murderpedia. Fix your shit, Murderpedia. Another convicted, well, another convicted killer, Robert Zerinsky. was long considered the prime suspect and died without being charged. Also, Denise Evans and Carol Hedgespeth, both 15, disappeared from Wilmington, Delaware, and were found shot in Salem County, New Jersey. Redland was free then, but they were shot, not strangled, and not raped.

So it doesn't seem like that's his thing. So anyway, Susan Haynes' body was sent home to England where she was buried in the same church where she got married outside there, the 13th century. Church. Yep. So, yep, he said, her husband said, I'm extremely proud of Susan and I know she'll be well remembered. He said, to be confronted with murder, it stays with me for the rest of my life. I'm nearly 70 and it's still there. It's fucked up, yeah.

The book is called The Charmer, the true story of Robert Relden, rapist murderer and millionaire, and the women who fell victim to his allure. Why don't you just have the whole book be the title? That's too long of a title. It's by Charles Buckley and Richard Moody. This book, once upon a time. Yeah. And they said they never interviewed him.

And they said, why? And he said, well, I knew if I interviewed him, he'd lie. Oh. But that's the point. You get the lies and then he... And then debunk them and show what a piece of shit he is. Yeah. Also, it shows a lot psychologically how he lies and what he lies about.

It's interesting. But they didn't do it, but that's fine. The book was very good, though. Very thorough. And there you go, everybody, though. That is Robert Relden. Susan Reeve and Susan and Susan strangulations.

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Yeah, otherwise it's plural dirties. Gary Howard is in London, Ohio. Oh, Gary. They've got one of those. Happy hours in Midland, Texas. Elena Zemmel, Alana Zemmel is in Tokyo. Thomas Woodward is also a trucker. He didn't get to tell me where he is. Damn it.

Shout it out. Truckers, what you got? Addie Murphy is somewhere also. Curtis is in Shreveport. Jenna Coon's daughter, Olivia, turned 18. Happy birthday, Olivia. Happy birthday. What a great day. Congrats.

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