Small Town Murder - The Killer Prodigy Groton Massachusetts

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

This week, in Groton, Massachusetts, a young man, who happens to be a prodigy jazz drummer, also has some problems. These problems lead to police showing up, after a 911 call, to find him naked, and covered in mud, claiming to have killed 4 people. As it turns out, he's not lying. Detectives find a horror scene, with blood and carnage that made even veteran crime scene people sick! The question is, is he as insane as he seems??   Along the way, we find out that even the leafiest suburb can be the scene of absolute horror, that being a musician doesn't necessarily mean you're peaceful, and that getting naked, and covering yourself in mud is not goijng to make anyone think you're any saner!!   New episodes, every Wednesday & Friday nights!! Donate at patreon.com/crimeinsports or at paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions!   Follow us on... instagram.com/smalltownmurder facebook.com/smalltownpod   Also, check out James & Jimmie's other shows, Crime In Sports & Your Stupid Opinions on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts!!

And welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yeah, and Choochoo! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrick Allum. I'm my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wiseman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today, all aboard the murder train,

pulling away from the station. We have some wild, wild, absolute insanity for you this week. Oh, my goodness. 20 pounds of murder in a two-pound bag. It's a lot. Before we get to that, very quickly. Head over to Shut Up and Give Me Murder.com. Not only is there merchandise available for all three shows that we do, but also tickets for live shows.

The 2026 calendar has been populated. We have a full slate of live shows all for sale right this minute at Shut Up and Give Me Murder.com. I will go down the list very quickly. February 21st in Nashville. Those tickets sell fast in Nashville. Get those. March 6th in Durham, North Carolina. March 7th, Atlanta.

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This week we're going to be for small-town murder. We're going to be finishing up Charles Starkweather, because he is in the middle of a murder spree after part one where he blames his girlfriend, his girlfriend blames him, and the back-and-forth of the two of them's amazing on this of the different ones. So get that. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And in addition to that, you get all the shows we do, everything, all add free with your Patreon as well. And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show. You can't beat it.

It's all we can possibly give you. So please do that. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. That said, I think it's time, everybody. There we go. I think it's time to clear the lungs and throats and everything else you can clear. And let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder.

Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? We are going to Massachusetts this week. All right. Groton, Massachusetts, so I are grottin, however you want to say. It's groaten. I know it's Groton, but I don't know if people want to say. I'm just giving alternate pronunciations kind of as a joke because no matter what the word is, it's never right.

So it's one of those things. It's the I don't care anymore deal. You want it to be grotton? You, there it is. It's yours. Enjoy it's Groot in Massachusetts. It's an eastern Massachusetts. It's about 55 minutes to Boston.

So Boston suburbs out here. 45 minutes to Worcester, if you want to go the other way. And about 45 minutes to Wakefield, Massachusetts, which was our last Massachusetts episode, Episode 607, the creepy killer motives. That was that Lakehouse murder. Remember where the guy said she, like, just, it was crazy. The woman, like, fell and then was in the water and she would have had to have like bounced 10 feet into the water

on the sidewalk people made of rubber kind of thing this is in that was a crazy case this is in middle sex county area codes here 351 and 978 population of this town and less than an hour outside of boston but 11,254 this is a quiet sleepy little town over here median household income These people are doing well. Median. Median household income, 169,49,497. That's median. That's crazy.

The median home cost here also a little elevated. $645,800. Wow. That is pricey. Wow. Yeah, 169 and 645. Holy. Everything is raised here.

They have two mottos here. one is all are welcome which I mean I don't know if that's really a model how can you keep people out all are welcome except the Irish like you can't put that on a sign not in fucking Massachusetts

yeah everyone would leave you'd be like oh there's like three Italian guys left and they also have faith labor that's another one they have there so work hard and pray I guess I don't know history of this town 1655 is when this town was officially settled and incorporated.

Wow. 1655. The town was named for Groton in Suffolk, England, which is the hometown of one of the selectmen named Dean Winthrop. It was the hometown of his father. And also the hometown of the Massachusetts governor also, somebody in his family named John Winthrop also. So, demonic possession. In October of 1671, the Willard family's 16-year-old servant, Elizabeth Knapp, fell into what was judged to be a demonic possession. Nice.

This is during the witch trials and shit, and this is Massachusetts. Reportedly the accused witch accosted Reverend Willard, having demonstrated, quote, physical violent or violent physical actions, mental moods, sudden shrieks, changing of continents, exclamations, fits, barking, bleeding. Oh, yeah. Up to this point, I'm like, yeah, maybe you pissed her off. You know what I mean? That just sounds like a, you know, if you get married, that's what happens. Barking and bleeding.

Not barking and bleeding. Now we're in another area. That's different. Speaking in different voices and ventriloquism. Oh, and, oh. Throwing her voice. I agree with that. Wow.

And hurling accusations of torment toward the Reverend. At one point, she accused the neighbor of bewitching. her, but Willard knew the neighbor to be a pious person and did not pursue that accusation. So, no, it's your fault. All right. Let's get to reviews of this town here. Here we go. Five stars.

I've been engrote in my whole life. Grew up here. The schools are great. Neighbors are friendly and there's a lot of trails to walk and explore. It's beautiful in the fall with all the leaves changing colors. That's true. Gorgeous time of year. There are lots of cute little cafes and some fancy restaurants that are farmed to table.

I love living here. It's a very family-oriented, safe place. You can tell exactly what this place is. Very leafy. The big houses going out to fancy dinners, median income, $170,000 a year. You get it. Three stars, Groton is a pleasant and cute town with great historical stuff, but I personally have never felt quite at home here.

You're not wealthy? Maybe that's why. Yeah. That's how I'd feel. I've had lots of great opportunities here. and I'm very thankful for them, but I don't think I could move back once I've graduated high school.

This is a young person. Yeah, I'm not going to be able to afford this place. Yeah, that's what's going on here. And three stars, the community is pretty rural and offers many opportunities for involvement in outdoor activities, hiking, canoeing, etc. In general, people in this area are friendly. And then one star, there are very few local businesses

and none of them are hiring. So, well, luck of us. Boston is right there. So knock yourself out. Things to do in this town. Groton Fest. Yeah, be rich. I love.

There's nothing more about small town when we do the small town like things to do than a festival that's just the name of the town with Fest afterwards. If they have that, we're talking about it. Groten Fest. It's a family of festivals.

Four unique festivals held throughout the year in the heart of Grotten Mass. So they have one for each season. They have seasonal festivals. In 1979, Groton Fest, since 1979, Groton Fest has brought our community together to uplift local businesses, highlight the work of talented artists and artists and artisans, and connect residents with the nonprofits that support Groton and its neighboring towns. Okay, produced by the Groton Business Association. They sound like they know how to throw a party, huh?

Wealthy folk is what it is. Yeah, it is. Each festival shines a spotlight on the rich character, creativity. Rich. Spirit of our rich, should be rich characters. Rich comma. Rich comma character. Making Groton Fest a joyful tribute to everything that makes our town feel like home.

Our spring, fall, and winter festivals have become beloved traditions. Well, here is Groton Winterfest. It's a celebration of holiday cheer, Jimmy, so we got that. Of course, yeah. We got Meet Santa. Duh. Meet Santa. Meet Santa. Meet Santa. Nice to meet you.

I got it. I'm James. What is the Santa made of meat? Steak Santa. It is a big giant pork chop Santa that's getting put to. Hamhawk Santa. There he is, everybody. Meat Santa. So you can share your holiday wishes with the jolly man himself. Yeah.

Hay rides, a carolers and live music. All right. So I think people are going to be singing Christmas songs. Hardy, warm food and hot chocolates, Christmas decor, garlands, and wreaths to buy. Sure. There. Winter clothing and accessories. This is all shit to buy.

Handmade Christmas gifts and jewelry. Crap that people will be disappointed with, in other words. Baked goods and sweet treats. Local trucks. Bapapapa, photo boots. Here we go. It says that there will be bands playing at all of these different festivals. Great.

And it says music fest for each season of the year, including Celtic bands. Oh, boy. Solis, Altan, and Lunasa, jazz bands, new black eagle jazz band, bluegrass slash roots, the Nefesh Mountain, and the Jacob Jolliffe band, and high horse. I think of Massachusetts. I think of, yeah, I do. Although Massachusetts, rural Massachusetts is pretty hicky. Oh, there are some, yeah. It's hicky out there, boy.

There's some scary characters. It's just far. It's all it is. Yeah, the one that I just met. That's the one that you just discovered. He's a little on the, on the definitely my dad's side of the family. God. And there'll be world music such as Sunny Jane.

Uh-huh. J-A-I-N. So there you go. That said, let's talk about some murder. Okay. Here we go. Let us start with, let's start with a lady. Okay.

We're going to go back to the year 2017 for this, which is not that far removed. Everything is the same. Your phone is. the same phone with a different operating, different software on it, that's it. You got iOS, whatever the fuck it was then. Yeah. So here is Elizabeth Cleveland, is what she's born as.

She goes by Esu. ESU is her nickname. Is Esu? I don't know. Who knows? Maybe a younger relative was one of those things where I had an aunt that was called D-D-D-D-for-de-de- It's because my cousin couldn't say Lorraine when he was two. So she was Diti for the rest of her fucking life, literally until she died.

Everyone called her Dedy. That was that. That's what happens. So this woman here, and she's 85 years old in 2017. Wow. Okay. She's born in Pellam Manor, New York. Very accomplished this woman.

This is a not only wealthy but accomplished person. She graduated from the master's school. in Dobbs Ferry, New York, then Lecolle Brilliant Mont in Lucerne, Sweden, or Switzerland, I'm sorry. So she went to college abroad and also to Connecticut College. She later earned a master's degree in divinity from the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge. So she's a real kind of religious woman and really energetic and really a go-go type of accomplished things type of woman. She got married in 1956 to a man of substance, this guy. Frank Danby Lackey, the Third.

The Third. The third. And he goes by Dan. Old Dan Lackey. Dan the third. He's born April 23rd, 1928, making him 89 years old in 2017. He's born in New York City, grew up in Pelham as well. I think that's how they met.

and also lived in Delaware for a while. He attended the Phillips Academy in Andover, which is one of the most elite prep schools in the entire United States. Is that right? Then he went to Yale and graduated class of 1951. Fantastic. These are people I just look from the street at their lawns and houses and go, I don't know how these people do anything. I could relate to nothing. I didn't know how to apply to a college even.

I didn't even know how to go get the form to do it. Never mind going to Yale and elite prep schools. I didn't know how to take the test to qualify. Oh, no, that was, that's, I didn't even know the, I didn't even know where to get the form. Never mind how to fill it out. I didn't even know where to get it. Oh, man. Who has that the guidance?

I just found out that. I don't know. It costs money to apply to schools. It costs money to take tests. To take the SATs. All this shit costs money. I found, yep. I guess that's why they didn't tell me.

That's right. You don't need money. Forget. The education. Yeah, nobody thought they were getting any test money out of me. I'll tell you that much. He fails tests for free. Yeah, he does that all day, all day long.

He didn't even show up for half of them. So certainly. So then he went to the Columbia Business School, which is the elite too. After graduation, he enlisted in the Navy, which most people that... What? Most people that go to Yale, then get an MBA at Columbia, go right to the Navy. What's he trying to be president? with the United States.

Back then, back then, that's what people did, though. In the 40s after World War II, and you would go in the Navy. It was to show you're well-rounded. You're a serviceman. That way, when you go to, like, jobs and shit like that and these high-powered firms when all those guys that are probably hiring you were in World War II, you can say, this guy worked out of service. All the colleges, the best ones, and then went into the Navy as a public servant.

So he's got frat guys, probably secret society people, from Yale and he's got the Navy and that was a thing too. You didn't want to go in there and be like I wasn't in the service when literally every guy hiring you was a man who was in World War II probably. So by 1957 they have a daughter also

named Elizabeth. Okay. They name her Elizabeth also. So this is Elizabeth Lackey. She goes by Buffy her whole life though. Literally a rich country club girl that goes by Buffy. Like this is this is where that joke came from.

Yeah, she's probably the originator of it, too, because she's that generation. She's born in 1957, big into the outdoors. She likes to fish for bass at Racepoint Beach. Super into it. One of her friends, and this is kind of the sentiment of everyone that knows her, calls her a good-hearted person always. And she should be. She grew up with no worries whatsoever.

You know what I mean? Like grew up in a stable family with successful people with a future in front of her. college paid for. I couldn't imagine what that felt like. Probably great parents, too. Probably very supportive and kind to her. And into the, it's what I mean.

I can't imagine what that was like, like for a kid to have that kind of stability. It's crazy. I hope two podcast dicks talk about my kids like this one day. Don't worry. They won't. He'll be like her. His father,

a barely literate comedian. And his partner. I have a pretty little bit of so nice. Well. I'm not going to sell you short. You're literate. I got the words for it. Yeah, you can get it down.

Yeah, you're fine. And his partner, the non-high school graduate, complete loudmouth dummy, fucking other comedian. The same thing but can do the reading. Yeah. Same thing, but somehow learned reading skills. Oh, Christ. So while this is going on, Dan here, he's building a career in finance. That's where the money is.

He knows it. He starts at Chase Manhattan Bank in New York, then spends years advising clients and managing investments for pension funds and non-profit endowments at firms like Thorndyke Doran Payne and Lewis and Wellington Management Group in Boston. Those sound like they make money. That sounds like you're making a lot of money. And it's all shit again. I don't know how to do any of that. So he eventually became president of the Spinnaker Capital in Boston of the company,

Spinnaker Capital, which is a investment group. But the lackeys also, you think they're just stacking cash, they're also insanely charitable. They have, they give tons of money away. Absolutely. Dan served as a trustee at the Chihuamaki Foundation in Maine from 76 to 2003. It's an environmental education organization that runs summer camps teaching children about nature and sustainability. Dan created their first investment. committee. He and Esu were members of the Chihuamaki's Osprey Society, which is their Osprey Society, which is their major donor group. I guess they're flying above looking down, seeing what needs money. Lucy Hall, a former Chihuamaki Director of Development, remember Dan

as quote, so generous, and I don't just mean financially, he was incredibly knowledgeable and incredibly giving of that knowledge. He was a caring, sweet person, and Esu was a diner. And a rock of their community. So, I mean, these two are hardcore upstanding citizens. Yeah. The lackeys also run the NADUS Foundation, which is a family charity founded in 1997. According to tax filings, they gave to organizations like the Massachusetts Audubon Society, Friends of the Hale School, the Chihuahunkey Foundation, Massachusetts Art Foundation, and the Masters School, which was Esu's All Amama. They have tons of charity shit they're doing away.

One person said about them, despite decades of generous support, Dan and Esu didn't want any recognition at all. They represented the Chihuahunkey ethos at its best, always directing attention to others. They don't, they're the type that donates large sums anonymously. Yeah. And they're the type. Somebody else take the credit. This building donated by anonymous. There are those people.

Like, that's insane. People, I did it. Dude, if I'm giving money away, I am telling... You think I'm letting that shit slide? No, shit no. I don't even write Santa on my kid's gifts. Fuck that. I did this, God damn it.

That's right, God damn it. I slid my fat ass down the chimney. Santa visits your mom's house. Yeah. This is for me. I don't have a chimney. I locked that motherfucker out. Dan also has time somehow to...

to write two volumes of, quote, lighthearted verse. Uh-huh. Some sort of poetry or something he's writing. He's super into sports. He likes baseball and tennis. One of his family members said, his optimism and cheerful advice,

his generosity, his fondness for tomatoes and strawberries, and other red foods. And beets and rhubarb. He eats pomegranates. He eats pomegranates. He doesn't even take the skis. He just bites into it like an apple. 1992, they purchased their home in Boston, which is here on Common Street, which is about

40 miles northwest of Boston here. And it's not a crazy house either. It's a modest house in 1992, so they're retiring and they're downsizing. They don't have the kids anymore, obviously, and everything like that. Now, Buffy, the daughter, Buffy went on to get married to a guy named Alexander. Kroes. He goes by Lexi. Lexi. Oh, Alexander. Lexi, that sounds like a

guy's name, right? No, but that's fine. Whatever, man. That's fine. Hey, call yourself whatever you want. Lexi? Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, boy. Yeah, that's a porn name there. For sure. Even a stripper's like, I don't think so. That's a little too porny. You know, I'm just taking my top off. That's nothing.

So Alexander here, they get married. Now, Alexander is a respected tuna fisherman. I don't think he's out there with a pole. I think he, you know. He owns the business. Yeah, that's like he owns the boat who had moored his boats on Monaghan Island and later Rockport Harbor. So he's a, he owns the goddamn boats.

Yeah, several of them. They're out there pulling tuna from the sea. He's getting tuna money. Now, they're going to have some kids here. They're going to have twin boys. by the way. Okay. Twin boys,

Orion and Cooper Krauss. Yeah. Cooper Kraus, that's tough. Orion, like the constellation and Cooper. They're born in 1995. Buffy was like 38 when she had them. She was pushing it. Yeah.

According to her friend, quote, she was so excited and nervous. Her husband is a kind soul. It was finally their opportunity to have children. Great. Now, a little bit about Orion here. And about, you know, Cooper also, I guess, here. They're going to grow up in idyllic places here.

Now, they spend their early, early years on the, I guess it's Monaghan Island, I'm not sure, which is 10 miles off the coast of Maine, accessible only by boat. A boat. With a population of 70. Fuck yeah. Fuck, yes. Take me there. Those 70 people are killing it and they don't want us talking about it. Take me home.

Country boat. to the place They don't want us saying this at all I promise. Less opportunity for assholes. There's a lot of fucking boats out there that can make it. Oh man. You can you can throw shit at people as they pull up. This is my island. Go away. So that's where they are. Then the family eventually

moves to the mainland because that's a rough place with the kids. What are you're going to? Oh, we have to go to, you know, target. Well, get the boat. fire up the boat you know that's tough you know it's a lot of well checks we gotta take the boat oh that's a lot man so anyway they eventually settle into

rock port which is an affluent coastal place and sitting there eating lobster rolls and it's exactly where we want to live basically it's sea coast with fucking rocky beach bags and thongs

and short hooty beaches yeah hooty beaches all around I love it. So they move there and, you know, everything's they have a normal upbringing, the kids. They're raised in an affluent environment and a wonderful place here and, you know, that ding, turn, thing, sound from the ocean going on. Lots of ching and chiming.

Smell and salt water eating shellfish. What a great deal here. Now, Orion somehow, out of all this, they figure out that he's like an insanely gifted jazz drummer. What? He's a really good drummer and especially with jazz music. That's his specialty.

Fast boy. Really strange. Friends described him practicing sometimes obsessively, they said. He was just, which is how you have to do to be great. You know? So usually they said

inside a barn on his family's property. He's got to practice barn. Wow. What a great life, man. So other kids are doing other shit and hanging out and all he does is practice drums and just do and he's interested in jazz he's just super into jazz uh he went to camden hills regional high school oryan did get straight a's was named an all state jazz drummer as a senior which i didn't know they had all state all state

like the football team i didn't know they had that for just specifically jazz drumming but apparently they do is that fucking movie with nick cannon is that considered jazz drumming I don't think so. Drum line? I don't think that's, I mean... I think it's drum major, right? I think it's drum line, but no, that's... Yeah, but isn't that the drum major is that guy?

The guy that fucking... Yeah, but that's like marching band drumming. That's a different type of drum. Yeah, that's not jazz, right? This is a band band. Yeah, this is a different kind of thing. But if you're a jazz drummer, don't you have like a guy there with a guitar and a dude with a stand-up base? You got those guys don't get judged, just the drummer?

Just the drum. Well, maybe they do, but he wasn't in all state any of those. and we don't know who those people are. They're not involved in our story. Those people are strangers, Jimmy. So. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you how to get the best holiday gift. It's an aura frame.

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All right. Now, 2014, Orion's pushing 19 at this point, 18. He joins a band, like a band band. It's a local band called Mostly Brothers and Company. So there's probably a couple of brothers in there, I assume. It's the brothers and the drummer. And there's five people. Four of the other kids are all from his school.

too guys he knows. They play in small venues throughout Central Maine and around the coastal areas. And, you know, they're always looking for during the summer. Those places are heaving with tourists and shit. They're always looking for a band in the background. Oh, boy. His friend Wolfgang Bagel. What?

His name is Wolfgang Bagel, man. P-O-E-G-L is Bagel. That's like how you do bagel. That's Wolfgang Bagel. All right. Wolfgang Bagel played basketball with Orion. Oh, it's just Wolfgang and Orion playing basketball. It's going to anyone give their kid a normal name.

Wolfgang and Orion. What is this? This is 2017? Yeah, it's just Orion and Wolfgang Bagel playing some pickup ball. Don't worry about it. Playing some horse out on the playground there. So, anyway, they were playing basketball all the time, and he described Orion as a great student and a phenomenal musician

who is well liked by everybody. So the twins, it's time for them to go to college, Cooper and Orion, and they don't go to the same place. They go their separate ways. Yeah. Cooper goes to Ithaca College, which is in New York at Ithaca. I think it's a SUNY school, as a matter of fact, which is like a not an expensive school. No? Yeah, no.

And later on transferred to the University of Southern Maine, which not a powerhouse there. Yeah. Now, Orion goes to Oberlin, Green. conservatory of music in Ohio. And it's apparently one of the most prestigious places you can go for this in the country. Yeah. He studied under a guy named Jamie Haddad, who was a renowned percussionist and one of the top drum instructors in America. Okay.

I guess. Assumingly, that's what they say. Now, studies in the Oberlin's Jazz Division, this is right from their website, Oberlin's, prepare students for careers as professional jazz musicians and for the advanced study of jazz in both performance and composition. And composing. Wow. Yeah, this is a serious school for seriously talented musicians. Mm-hmm. So, Orion, though, he's got a couple of problems.

It seems like old Orion's quiver isn't quite full of arrows, if you know what I mean? No. There's a couple of arrows short of a quiver over here. and belts missing a buckle? Yeah. He's July 16th, 2016. This is the first 911 call his mother has to make about him. Buffy.

Buffy calls 911 from her home in Rockport. And wow. She says, my husband is downstairs with him. I am upstairs calling you. The dispatcher asks if this is a suicide attempt you're calling about. and she said she didn't think so. So Elizabeth says, Buffy, says, please don't send a policeman. I just as soon not have a policeman.

I don't know who else they expect to send. Yeah. Send a fireman? Can you just send somebody over here to talk to us? We got a 911 call. Yeah, 911. Is something on fire? Is there something illegal happening?

Right. Those are the two things you call for. Somebody hurt. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you. We really don't have that. Can you send a therapist over as not a thing you can request from the city. I need a therapist and probably should get me an MD too in case I need a script. Just bring them all over.

You got a dentist on stand. Yeah, you know what? I'm like one fucking molar back here. It's just I feel like I chipped it the other day. So that's what she says. The dispatcher said she'll send one anyway as a precaution. Like I'm sending a cop. So she says, Buffy says,

Buffy says, tell them all, my son needs some gentleness. He doesn't need any force. This has got to be a loving experience. What the fuck are you talking about? Okay, you can tell that Buffy has not grown up in. Yeah, yeah. She's seen social media, though. Oh, that's a fact.

But she hasn't had many hard times, though, is what I'm saying. Where I would never call 911 and think that a loving experience was going to happen on the other end of that phone ever. I would think you call 911. They're either coming with hoses or force or those paddles or guns or something. There's handcuffs either way. Yeah, there's going to be sirens. Shit's happening.

Hi, 911. What's your emergency? I need a loving emergency. This is a loving. That's hard. I need a loving experience, please. Yeah, I'd like a loving experience. I think you've called the wrong number, ma'am.

So I transfer you to, I don't know. The fucking bunny ranch. You know what are we talking about? You're going to have to go to Nevada for this. I don't think we have that here. That's not available. Now, I get, Buffy's a nice lady and she cares about her son.

Help, but she doesn't want the cops coming over and stun gunning her kid in the living room either. So I get what she's going for here. According to what ends up happening here, Orion's parents, Lexi and Buffy, say that he had came home from school, or came home, not acting like. himself and he was quote

screaming religious rants which is oh what the hell that's never a good sign really no that's weird um Elizabeth here Buffy for told the first responders that he had joined some sort of cult and she wasn't sure about drug usage

or what he had done the previous night but he's screaming about religious shit and he'd think he joined a cult so whatever happened that day calms down it was a loving experience and everybody held hands. So they did a nice round of kumbaya and everybody went back to their to one here. So it passed. Orion returned to school to Oberlin to finish his degree. And in 2017, he graduated

from the Oberlin Conservatory of Music in the spring. He put on a senior recital in April playing his own compositions on jazz drums. He's 22. He's ready for the world. So his Facebook page had a picture of him playing drums, and his page on another social media site called Fandalism, which is a musician's site, discussed his time playing in a Beatles tribute band. Okay. So he's getting some stuff done. Now, Dan and Esu, grandparents of Orion and Cooper here, what are they up to in 2016-17? Well, they're pretty goddamn old, like we said.

They're, you know, in their late 80s, so old that they're doing well, but they also need a live-in caretaker. Okay. They need a woman that works for them pretty much all the time, basically. So they have a woman named Bertha May Parker, who's 68 years old. Yeah. She takes care of them. Yeah, she, I guess, originally was from Louisiana, and, you know, she's living in the area now working for them. They're 89 and 85 years old.

They've been married 61 years, Dan Nessu. So September 7, 2017, Orion leaves his family home in Rockport without explanation. He's just gone. Just walks away, huh? Taking his mother's car without telling her. So he even leaves his cell phone behind, which when someone takes off unexpectedly and leaves their cell phone behind, either they're going to jump off a bridge or someone is kidnapped them, I usually think. You know what I mean? And taking someone else's car.

Yeah, exactly. He's wearing a dirty t-shirt and gray corduroy pants. He's choosing to wear here. Elizabeth, Buffy, Buffy comes home from work at about 3.20 p.m. and sees her car is gone. And also her son is gone. He sees the keys are gone and puts it together and says, okay, he took the car. So she panics, which is interesting, because she had the same thought I had.

He left his cell phone. He took my car. He's going on himself. Yes. So she searches everywhere. She searches like suicide like places first. She goes to a breakwater nearby, which is like it's basically if you were going to jump off something and kill yourself. This is where you'd go.

Somewhere in Maine, North Massachusetts. Yeah. She goes there. She, a hospital parking lot checking to see if he'd admitted himself to basically for treatment. It's the park unit, P-A-R-C, which. It's at a treatment center in Rockport that focuses primarily on substance abuse services. Oh, so she's doing drugs. She thinks he's got a drug problem, obviously.

She thinks checking to see if he checked in there. She checks a Walmart parking lot. Maybe he went to Walmart. Maybe he's just shopping. Yeah? Maybe he's just picking out some, like, fishing lures for the upcoming fall season. Who knows? Maybe he wants new underwear.

That's all. What's a 12-pack of cheap underwear? Who cares? That's for him. So by 9.40 p.m. She still hasn't found him. It's been six hours. She's looking for him in a small town.

So if you didn't find him, he does not around. So she calls a crisis hotline at that point, Buffy does, for a loving experience. Then when the crisis hotline says, what the hell do you want us to do if your kids miss and call the goddamn cops? This is, I don't know, yeah, we don't have like, can you send like, you know, bloodhounds over here? Is that what we do?

So then she calls the rock. Port Police. And she says, quote, he's just a very tender heart who's troubled and I'm reaching out to help him. Now, she tells the dispatcher that Orion doesn't do drugs or alcohol, but she checked to see if he was at a drug treatment program. But she said he doesn't own any weapons. He's only been gone six hours, but she's super worried.

She said that, you know, she described him wearing the dirty t-shirt, the gray corduroy pants and said he doesn't even have his cell phone. And she said, we told him that the world wants him alive. And he did promise that he wouldn't do it. So I'm trying to have faith. I'm just concerned and I'm scared. So they're worried about him having suicidal ideations here. So that's what she keeps talking about.

She said earlier in the day, she went all over the place looking. She went to the parking lot. She did all that shit. She said, I've been trying to tell myself that my kid is just going to come home, that he's been with a girl and he, you know, he's not thinking about what I'm thinking or feeling. He's going to come home. And so I've just kept the lights on. That's what she tells them.

She tells them also he suddenly had the urge to go to Chicago, but they couldn't go with him, I guess. She said neither of us could drop anything and go with him, me or my husband. She said he might be heading to Chicago or to visit friends in Ohio where he went to school. Okay. So she asks, can the police check license plates that go through the tolls for my car in Massachusetts? Great question. Which is a good detective work on her part. And they're like, we're not doing that.

Jesus Christ, what are you talking about? That's all we do. Listen, lady, that's a lot to do. We're not doing that, all right? That ain't happening. No, not happening. When we have some sort of indication that he's dead, maybe we'll do that. Or that he's committed a crime, maybe.

We'll comb the streams at that point. What do you want for me? So then Buffy says, do you know how much of a relief I would have with that information? I'm just praying more than anything that he's headed out of state to his friends. But, you know, since he didn't take a damn thing with him except probably a wallet, I'm not so sure what he's done. And I don't know. That's why I'm calling. So the police advise to check toll boots and they call around to do that.

They're looking for it. She's just hoping. She says, I'm going to be like, okay, I can deal with this. Give him some space and he'll be okay. I know it's only been six hours and I've been sitting here saying to myself, you know, I trust him, I love him, have faith, he'll be okay. I'm trying to have faith in him. So then September 8th, the next morning, here, she gets a phone call from Orion.

He's alive. That's great. He's fine. He's in good shape. He says he's totally fine. He's in the Boston area and he needs a ride home. Yeah. Now, my question would be, don't you have my car? Where's my fucking car?

She doesn't ask shit. She just says, where are you? I'm coming to get you. She's just relieved. Good for her. And that's that. So she goes to her son, drives down to Massachusetts, picks him up. We don't know where her car is in this mix.

We don't know where he left it. Who knows if it got towed by the cops or pounded or so? Who hell knows? But the plans to drive back to Maine, but along the way they decide to take a detour because outside of Boston is Groton, it's about 50 miles outside of Boston, and that's where the grandparents live. That's where Esu and Dan live. So they decide to go see them, make a stop and go see the grandparents on the way home.

Why not? We're already down here. It's three hours away. What the hell? So it's pretty much on the way. It's probably a little off the mark. What grandparents wouldn't like to see their daughter and grandson coming to visit? I love that shit.

They love it. So they visit here. They go to the house. It's a quiet little town and Groton, obviously. This is a very peaceful, quiet neighborhood they live in, leafy, very safe. So they arrived that afternoon. Bertha May Parker is there, the caretaker. Currently lives in Tewkesbury at that time.

She provides nearly 24-hour care. They're basically confined to confined. to reclining chairs in the kitchen most of the day. Oh. They're so old. That's pretty much what they do. So at some point, the four sit down for a meal, not Bertha May, but Esu, Dan, O'Ryan, Buffy.

They sit down for a meal, Dan and Esu in their recliners, Elizabeth on a kitchen stool, Bertha May Parker's upstairs, perhaps doing something else. We don't know what she's doing. She's not hanging out with them. She probably says, I'll leave you alone with your family. Yeah. You know, I'm not a part of your family. So at approximately 4.40 p.m., everything seems to be going fine.

Yeah. Orion picks up the phone and he gives a little call to Jamie Haddad. Remember him? He's his instructor, drumming instructor. Right. Former professor. According to Haddad's wife, Mary Gray, because I assume she answered the phone, he doesn't sound like himself. Orion says into the phone, quote,

I've done something bad. I stole some money in my mom's car. And then there's a pause and he says, I think I have to kill my mom. Oh my God. No, you don't? Yeah. So they said,

Haddad said, can you repeat that? Did I hear that? And he said, again, I think I have to kill my mom. Duh, that's what I said.

So he also tells him that he intends to kill his mom with golf clubs from his grandparents' garage. Good Lord, man. And then he's like, All right, well, have a good one and hangs up. They're like, holy shit, what do we do here? He's about to do something crazy. So, Mary, the drumming instructor's wife, calls the Rockport Police in Maine at 5 p.m.

Because she knows they live in Rockport. That's all she knows. So she tries to reach Buffy directly and can't get a hold of her. So the Rockport Police Sergeant James Moore takes the call there. He says that Buffy had called the department about her son the day before. He contacts Orion's twin brother Cooper, who tells him that his family's in Massachusetts visiting the grandparents. Okay.

So the cop tries Buffy's phone, her cell phone, no answer. He tries the grandmother's number, no, the grandparents' number, no answer. So he Googles the grandparents' phone number and discovers they live in Groton, Massachusetts. So he calls the Groton Police Department. Okay. And he says, this is Sergeant James Moore, said I was immediately asked if this was about Orion Krauss. Oh.

He's like, uh-oh. He said, I was advised that this was the fifth call in relation to Orion and that, quote, officers were at the scene. Oh, God. The fifth call. So apparently, he's late, basically. He hangs up the phone and why are the cops on the scene? Well, at 5.52 p.m. they had received a 911 call from a neighbor named one. Wagner Alcoser, Alcoq, Alcoq, Alcoq, Alcocer, okay.

He's a 52-year-old guy who's a neighbor on Common Street there. They said, what's your emergency? And his answer to, what's your emergency at 911 is, quote, he's a little bit crazy and he keeps saying that he murdered four people. We don't know who he is. Oh, boy. So this is later on, this neighbor said, I opened the door and he said, I need help.

I closed the door on him because he was naked, covered in mud, and I didn't know what he had in his hands. Then I opened it again. What would make you open the door? How curious are you, motherfucker? A scary, naked, mud-covered man like Schwarzenegger at the end of predator at your door with an unknown item in his hand. You're going to open the door for that. How curious, George. You are incredibly naive.

I would call the police. This is what doors are for. Yeah, and arm myself. I don't give a fuck what I've got. I'm going to the kitchen. This is how nice of a neighborhood this is, though. These people don't even think that. They don't even think about it.

He probably shut the door and then was like, I didn't see that. And then open the door again. Maybe it is. There he is. Okay. And then he says, quote, Orion said to him, Help me, please. Help me please.

I murdered four people. Those are incongruous statements. Help me. I murdered four people. Motherfucker, you don't need help. No. Here's some help. Get the fuck out of here.

Yeah. This Wagner guy thinks he's like some either a drug addict, some guy literally tripped out on, took like five tabs of acid, lost his mind or a severely mentally ill person that doesn't know what they're talking about. So he says,

he didn't understand it, you know? He's looking at him and he looked like a tall, skinny kid. And he said he was looking at him thinking this guy couldn't hurt a fly who's a skinny kid yeah it's just some skinny kid at the door that's why he opened it didn't seem threatened by him um okay so the police arrive

they enter Dan and Esu's house and what they see immediately we'll say they said that responding EMT had to step outside so they didn't throw up that's how bad god damn

25 big 25 foot kitchen that looks like it's painted red completely. Like Florida sealing blood. Wow. They find beneath a tree a baseball bat covered in hair, tissue, and blood. They find that underneath the tree. Okay.

Now, what the fuck happened? Let's find out what happened. Yeah. Apparently, Orion went into the garage looking for the golf clubs, and instead he found the baseball bat. Couldn't find the golf clubs. All right. So he said that he then walked outside and practiced swinging by hitting apples.

He went outside to get a couple of cuts in the cage. Just to, you know, before you step up to the plate in the on-deck circle, he wants to get a few swings. Sometimes you got to fight them off, yeah. Try to time the pitcher. He went out and hit some apples around. Wow. Then he goes inside.

Okay. And this is from the district attorney said he then went inside and immediately started hitting his mother in the head and face severely and repeatedly with this baseball bat. Just decided to attack his fucking mother. This nice lady who wanted nothing but good for him. Why did he do this? Okay. Then his grandparents yelled at him to stop.

Yes, you would imagine they would. But they were in their chairs and couldn't do anything to make him stop or to even get away from them. All they could do is watch. so he went over and beat them both to death in their recliners with baseball bats. Oh, my word. His 89-year-old grandfather and his 85-year-old grandmother. For what? I had old grandpa.

I had my grandmothers both lived to be 93, and they were so frail. Yeah. Like, you, I don't even, when you hug them, it was like, oh, God, gentle, gentle. Oh, yeah. Don't break them. Can't imagine. This is horrifying to do anything violent or even anything just a quick motions you don't want to do around them. So it gets worse.

During the attack at some point, Bertha May Parker came downstairs. Probably heard the commotion, I would imagine. And she sees what's going on and makes a run for it. She said, oh, shit, I'm getting the fuck out of here. Apparently, this is from the district attorney again, Parker was trying to get away when Krause caught up with her in the Holmes driveway and struck her in the back of the head with the bat. She died face down in a flower bed in the driveway at 68 years old, this poor woman. They said the ADA here, the assistant district attorney said the wounds to everybody were horrific to put it mildly.

Blood cover in the house, baseball bat beneath the tree. apparently what happened is they by the way Orion had did all this then stripped naked, wandered into the woods, covered himself in mud

and walked to the neighbor's house. Why did he do this? Naked, naked. Dick covered in mud. What the fuck? Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you how to get your kids some financial literacy here

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parents and kids who've unlocked their kids potential with Acorns Early? Get your first month on us when you head to AcornsEarly.com slash small or download the Acorns Early app. That's one month free when you sign up at AcornsEarly.com slash small. Now back to the show. Yeah, apparently he came to the neighbor's back door. Uh-huh. And this guy said, I opened the door. And he said, I need help. And I closed the door because he was naked and covered in mud again. Then he opened it.

And he said, he looked like a nice kid who needed help. He said he had real red eyes and he had cuts all over his body and blood above his eye and his knee. And he's covered in mud. He said, I thought he was the victim of a prank or in an accident because he looks like a young kid, too. He said it looks like some other kids fucked with him or something. Or he had a mental problem. He wasn't bleeding profusely or anything. And then he said, I murdered four people.

but this guy doesn't believe him. He thinks he's just talking crazy. And then Orion apparently said, I need my sleeping pills. That's what he said. So this neighbor, Wagner here, was polite, and Orion was polite to him. They had a little back and forth. He even asked Wagner's wife to open the door for him since his hands were dirty. He didn't want to get it muddy.

Right. So they called 911. That's the, he keeps saying he murdered four people. We don't know who he is. The cops, when they walk in, officer that responded, said, I walked up the step to the back patio and I could see a white male in his early 20s sitting in a patio chair. The male was naked and it appeared he had rubbed mud all over his body. The male was also covered in thin cuts.

He said, are you okay what's going on? That's what the officer said. Hey, are you okay? What's going on? His response is, quote, I murdered four people. Okay. guy says who which his first response

at that point should have been you have the right to remain silent but instead he said who and Orion said my grandparents my mother and my grandparents aid oh everybody the cops everyone whatever they had pretty much

they said where and he points to the woods near the house and says somewhere over there he just yonder basically is what he said so they said how and he said quote I killed my

family with a baseball bat. Yeah. They said, what's the last name of your parents? Or what's the name of your grandparents? He says, Lackie, L-A-C-E-Y. Dang. So they cuff him, obviously. The officers head in there.

They find a bed sheet. They wrap it around him, by the way, and sit him back down in a chair. Wagner goes inside, gets a bed sheet. And then they said, O'Ryan began to quietly sing to himself. What do he sing? And then he says to everybody, quote, I freed them.

I freed them. He keeps saying it. I freed them. So, holy shit. The guy's going to the murder scene. One guy said, I looked through a bay window and can see a light on. He said, as I looked in the window, I observed two elderly looking people seated separately in chairs facing my direction. Both persons appeared to have severe trauma to the face and forehead.

The door was locked, so this guy kicks it in, Sergeant. and he finds a horror, I mean a horror movie. Couldn't be more horrific. You couldn't recreate it in a movie. Blood on the floor, blood on the ceiling, blood everywhere.

He said the old people are in recliners facing forward. He said as I walked a little closer, I then saw a third victim that I was not able to see prior. That victim was seated in a chair slouched down with the back of their head against the corner of the kitchen island.

And obviously that's Buffy. Yeah. So apparently the, Elizabeth Esu had suffered massive head wounds in the attack, and everybody did pretty much. They checked the rest of the house. Then they go outside. They came in through the back, remember? Then they go out front and said, we found a fourth victim outside, face down in the flower bed parallel to the driveway.

That's Bertha May Parker. She's the only victim who was attacked from behind, and she's also the only one who ran. Everybody else was seated. They found an eight-foot trail of blood next to her body, which goes back. to where she was there, probably dripping off the bat, I would think. So the EMT responding, like we said, had to step outside to not throw up. They found discarded clothes in the woods nearby, a bat beneath the tree covered in blood and hair and tissue.

They radio back to the, because the other cop is, they radio to the cop who's with Orion on the patio. Yeah? Having a chit-chat. And this cop said, I could tell him the tone of Sergeant Goodwin's voice that he may have found victims. So they read him as Miranda rights. He says he understands them and he doesn't want to talk anymore.

Okay. He takes, he goes to the hospital for evaluation. During that evaluation, he tells a nurse that he's a heroin user. Oh, oh, Mom was right. That's what he said. She would know. They said friends were completely unaware of any drug use. So if he was doing it, he was hiding it from everybody.

His mother told police he didn't do drugs or alcohol, but he told the nurse he did heroin. I don't know why you would tell the nurse you do heroin if you don't do heroin. This is crazy. This is the chief of police, Donald Palmer. He had a 42-year law enforcement veteran. He said, it's something I could have done without for the remainder of my career, but it did happen. He said it was the worst he's ever seen.

He'd had to bring in his entire department to respond. He said literally, no, there was not another cop in town for anything. He said, if you called our dispatch, they would send somebody from another jurisdiction. They would ask for help because we didn't have any cops left. He said it's a horrific situation and we're not used to dealing with it. I want to assure the town that we are safe. Your department is safe. And we're going to continue on.

Everybody's fine. So they have a vigil for everybody. The reverend said four people are dead. Two of them are elderly. Killed by a young man who is known and loved by them. We do not understand this. Yeah. I'd like to join the congregation on this one as in the, I don't understand this congregation.

Certainly. Yeah. I'm in the pew. Amen, brother. I don't know what else to say. I can't believe it either. Yeah. The Oberlin Conservatory puts out a statement.

Yeah. And said the nature of this crime is horrific and the grief of the family and friends is immeasurable. And yet, Orion is one of our own. So they're not trying to hide from it anyway, that he went there. reactions are crazy. Wolfgang Bagel, he said, this is the most devastating news I've ever heard in my life.

He said, everything seemed horrible. I thought my name was going to be the most tragic thing ever, and now this. Christ's sake, Wolfgang Bagel, and now my friends are murderer? He said he played basketball two weeks before the murders with Orion, and everything was perfectly fine. High school band director that, you know, he played under, said, I just can't make any sense of it.

The Orion Krause, I knew, here at Camden Hills, would never have done something like that he's being accused of. She said he was a wonderful student. So she said his father would chaperone jazz band trips. His parents were supportive of his musical endeavors. So who knows? The town does not want to be defined by this, though. No? They want to be like, listen, this isn't us.

He didn't even live here. They don't want to be the murder town at all. He's from elsewhere. Yeah, I would say. They said this is, who is this one of the town, town manager? He said, when you have an event like this, it makes you reflect on the community. Groton is such a tight-knit community. It's such a wonderful place.

It's a great place to raise a family. And I don't think one incident like this is going to change that. I'm confident that the town will rebound well. And then the selectman, Joshua Deegan, said there hasn't been a murder in this community in over 20 years. years. Again, the other one this week that we did the Kentucky one, 20 years. 20 damn years. Every 20 years somebody's got to die. Gotta happen. Terribly. But their grandpa's got to die.

And it's something. That is fucking unreal. They can't believe that. I want to know what's the catalyst, man. Especially those are like cool old people you'd want to talk to because they've like done shit and have cool experiences. Talk to those old people. They're fun. Don't eat in the death. And you be kind to them and they'll take care of you whenever they're dignified. pass on of their own volition.

Yeah. So he said, having had a murder in over 20 years and it's not something we're used to dealing with. One murder is bad enough. Four murders is horrific and this community is very much in shock. So he goes to get arraigned. He said he's just real, his picture too,

he's just a real placid, relaxed son of a bitch, man. God, I want to see this kid. Calm morning on the lake. Yeah. So he said that the attorney of the DA said, this is a tragic incident of family violence. The judge orders Orion to undergo a mental health evaluation, which seems very warranted at the Bridgewater

State Hospital. A not guilty plea is entered on his behalf. They also, the judge issues an impoundment order. Of what? Which seals all court and police records are reports related to the case. The order states because the investigation is ongoing and involves gruesome details, the information should be withheld. It also references allegations of abuse, though it provides no other details.

The media outlets, including the Boston Globe and Lowell Sun, immediately challenged this order on constitutional grounds of you can't just hide willy-nilly, you know, suppress police records. So this goes all the way through. They go to, they argue in court. They said future jurors in this case will be discussing these things long before my client has the ability to challenge their admissibility. So the judge is saying it's to not poison the jury pool. That's why they're sealing it. Once everything's out, then it'll be open. Kind of like the Coburger thing was a lot like that.

Because it was a very, you know, well-known thing here. So the Orion's father, Lexi, files an affidavit pleading for the records to remain impounded. He says, as the court can well imagine, my family and I have been devastated by both the recent deaths of our loved ones and my son's arrest for their murders. Speaking for the defendant's twin brother and myself, were both in deep shock over what has occurred. In just the past two weeks, I've had to bury my wife, my in-laws, and see my son confined to an institution for the criminally insane. Must I now also read the grisly details of the crime scene in the newspaper? Must I hear the public discuss the precise condition of my wife's body when it was found? What good will it serve to force that information on my family and me?

no doubt many are morbidly curious about such things, but I cannot bear them. That's life, man. That's America. If you were, that's just how, it sucks for you. I mean, I'm not saying tough shit. I'm just saying that's, you know, we live in an information society. Don't take it out on us. Yeah, this is an information society. You know what I mean?

Your son did it, like you said. One family friend, a psychiatrist, also filed an affidavit arguing that, Oh, Ryan, may be struggling to regain self-control in the face of an emerging mental illness. and releasing the detailed documents could set him back. So September 22nd, 2017, the judge rescinds the impoundment order. And, yeah, so that's that. Now, competency, 40-day court-ordered assessment at the Bridgewater State Hospital, they deem him competent to stand trial.

Is that right? Yeah, I guess if you medicate him. Yikes. He, court records show that he'd been administered antipsychotic medications since his arrest, and now he's feeling much better. Okay. His lawyer says he should be in a psychiatric setting, and, you know, he shouldn't be in jail. This is what he is.

Yeah, we mean. He should certainly be in jail, jail, but, you know what I mean. Something. Lock this kid up forever. That's what, yeah, the lawyer's saying, you know, he obviously should be in some sort of psychological issue or some sort of setting. He needs help. They end up diagnosing him as a schizophrenic. Schizophrenia.

Okay. So he remains at Bridgewater to stabilize. And his attorney said he's smart but volatile. He's hard to deal with. So April 18, 2018 is his superior court arraignment. When asked how he pleads in the charge of killing his grandparents and Bertha May and Bertha May, he says flatly not guilty. When asked about his mother, he starts kind of. holding back cheers and choking and his voices break and he says not guilty so um his father and his

brother are both there supporting him okay um his lawyer said at the end of the day i think mental illness will be the explanation for this event uh an insanity defense not guilty by reason of mental defect so he said he also said um oh the uh the d a told everybody that this the it was i was would describe the scene as mildly as horrific. That's the most mild I can put it. So the trial set for May 2019 and then it gets postponed for early 20, 2020. And then COVID happens. Yeah. So he's transferred from the Bridgewater State Hospital to the Middlesex County Jail. He's attended other hearings, Alexander Krause said he declined to speak and he just said, I would say it's a mental illness that cause this to happen and only mental illness.

That's all he would say. Okay. September 2021, prosecutors offer a deal. Plead guilty to four counts of second-degree murder instead of first-degree murder and in exchange life in prison with the possibility of parole after 25 years. Pretty decent deal. That's a good deal. It takes into consideration his lack of criminal record, his age at the time of the crime,

and his clearly fucked up mental state. Clearly there's something wrong here. Right. So the district attorney presented the prosecution's case, him pulling out a baseball bat from a long paper bag to show. Took it out back to swing practice. And it's covered in blood. I mean, it's stained red. It's nasty.

Goes through the timeline. The practice swings on the apples and talks about the cops calling to try to people call in to try to stop him. And they said the calls came too late, Your Honor. They have family impact statements here talking about. this. The sister said the utter brutality, the human indecency, the cruelty of this act is beyond comprehension. There are acts that with the veracity, the ferocity, the complete cruelty that our loved ones met that day is a darkness beyond any theology or any philosophy and maybe any psychology of understanding. He said, they said anything to say for yourself. He apologizes and said,

quote, I was in a psychotic state at the time. And he said, I pray we will be able to process it in the future, hopefully together, as he turns to his father and his brother and says that. The sentence, you, jazzy lunatic, may fuck off, agreed upon sentence eligible for parole. In 25 years, he'd only be 51 when that happens. Whoa. Yeah. Man, that's a lot. So, O'Rei.

I'm so scared. That's 51 is terrifying. He can still be drumming at 51. Yeah. I mean, so they said before he was charged with this, you know, they're talking about all this. And his friend said it's a hard thing to think through mentally. He was my friend. I feel really sad this happened to him.

And he could be enrolled then. That's that. So there you go, everybody. There is Groot in Massachusetts. Holy shit. Head shaker. Are those? well off, just the privilege.

How can you say happen to him? He did this. He did it. I don't know. Mental problems. Something's going on here. He's not a victim. No, no.

I mean, he's obviously. Something's wrong and he was called maybe? Who knows? I don't know. That's what I mean. Who knows? Something's wrong. If you have an idea or if you just like the show, get on whatever app you're on and give us five stars.

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