Snapped: Women Who Murder - Debra Hartmann

Episode Date: July 24, 2022

A 14-year-old girl discovers her wealthy father brutally executed in their home late at night; the investigation proves that not everything is as it seems, uncovering love affairs, possible connections to the mob and a twisted journey to justice.Season 28, Episode 14Originally aired: December 7, 2020Watch full episodes of Snapped for FREE on the Oxygen app: https://oxygentv.app.link/WatchSnappedPodSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wonder East Podcast American Scandal. Our newest series looks at the story of OxyContin, a popular painkiller that helps spur an epidemic of addiction and drug abuse, in which prompted a broad campaign to hold the pharmaceutical industry accountable. Listen to American Scandal on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. She was an ambitious young dancer. She was very engroring, you know, the whole bit, and he was just smitten by her.

He was more than happy to bankroll the lavish lifestyle she'd always dreamed of. He wanted to do anything that would please her. She would downtown Chicago throwing champagne bottles out of the Roll Rose Royce. But the couple's high life comes crashing down in a hail of gunfire. Spent casings all over, a body full of holes.

It looks like a war zone. It did look like somebody with a brrrr right off its midline. The ensuing investigation will expose a hidden secret. Started having an affair. It was money to have to be repaid. Start was a mob hit. After a lengthy investigation, authorities

are left wondering if the truth will ever be revealed. My immediate reaction was we're not getting the whole truth here. Someone conspired with one of his professionals to change his insurance policy, was just to serve, not yet. Listen, the three things for murder, basic money, sex, revenge, that's it. Follow the money, I'd say. -♪

-♪ It's just after 4 a.m. And while most residents are sleeping soundly, 14-year-old Eva Hartman is just closing out a night on the town with her mother, Vi Cruz, and her stepmother, Deborah Hartman. My mom and I went to have dinner with Deborah. After dinner, Deborah was still with us and wanted to go to a couple of night clubs to go dancing. So we tried to get into a couple clubs. I was only 14, of course, I didn't have ID.

So we went to a couple of places until she finally knew someone and let us in and we stayed out dancing till the morning. After closing down the club, Eva's mother drops her and Deborah off at their home for the night. As we walked into the house, the music was playing so loud. My dad's music.

That was not normal. It was a very eerie feeling, walking up those stairs. As Eva makes her way up to her father's bedroom, she's stopped in her tracks. I found my dad's body. Laying on the floor with both holes on his body. Eva quickly rushes to her 38-year-old father, Warner Hartman.

I'm like, you know, we got a call 911, we got a call 911. I'll remember, it's her robbing my arm, us running down the stairs. They left, a Deborah Suggestion should come to Eva, let's go talk to the police. Where my dad lived is a very small town, and they've never had a murder in this town. My father was very well-liked. I was so shocked. And the first thing in my mind is we shot him. [♪ Music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in Warner Hartman arrived in America in the early 1960s when he was

just 19 years old. With just a few dollars in his pocket, Warner set up a secondhand stall at a Florida flea market. Everyone loved him, his laugh, his smile, beautiful blue eyes that just lit up the room, very sociable, very friendly. There at the flea market, Warner fell for 18-year-old Vesliki Vi Crews. She seemed to be a very, very sweet lady. Very nice, very warm, warm,

always spoke very highly of Vi. The couple married in 1964, war, war, war always spoke very highly of fight. The couple married in 1964 and soon had a daughter Stephanie in 1965. It got tougher to earn a living and you know support them in the way they want. To support his family, Warner traded his second hand stall for a position as a door-to-door electronic salesman. In 1966, the Hartman family moved to Chicago, where Warner could finally realize his dream

of owning his own store. He opened up his first store and got huge. He put stereo equipment and private schools and police stations and boats. Back when he was in business, you couldn't go to Best Buy and have an incredible car stereo installed. He was before his time, and I think that's why he was so successful. In 1967, Warner and Vi added a new member to the family,

their second daughter, Eva. As his family and his business grew, Vi began helping with bookkeeping. My friend told me that this guy would make a money handle for this. It was just, it's making big money. You got the money and wherewithal to start living in a different kind of life, which he did. He liked to go to an ice restaurant, we would travel. Warner moved his family to Chicago's most exclusive suburb, Northbrook, and bought a Ritsey home in one of the best neighborhoods.

You might call it ostentatious. It was big and you'd feel fairly impressed. He was very successful. He would take us to downtown Chicago and enjoy the food and his friends. While Warner embraced the newvo-reached lifestyle, his humble wife, Vi, felt out of place. One day, they just told us that they were getting a divorce and the next thing, you know, my mother and my sister and I moved out of the house and got an apartment.

After an amicable split, Vi and the girls moved to Florida, leaving Warner alone in his police Chicago home. Now single and wealthy, Warner spent most of his nights out on the town. Warner would oftentimes go down to the Stone Park area. Stone Park is a, or was, a community that the buyer stayed open 23 hours a day. They'd only closed for one hour, and it was well known for exotic dancers in the clubs. In 1978, at one of the strip clubs, Warner was dazzled by a 24-year-old dancer named Deborah Stover.

Deborah, as I understand it, grew up in an abusive home, and the father would beat her. She could high school at 15 to be a, quote, model. And she would teach dancing. She looked a lot younger. She had that smile. Debra Kacharm men. She had a thing. She was good at it. She knew how to do it.

For Debra, Warner was different from the CD men she usually met at the Strip Club. I would think that most women would love to meet a successful, warm, nice, kind human being that would love them and provide a great lifestyle. The couple married just two months after meeting and Debra's life changed forever. She grew up with nothing and now has money

and drove the Mercedes and the Farr Codes and the jewelry. After a year away, Vi, Eva and Stephanie returned to the Chicago area, allowing for Warner to hopefully see more of his teenage daughters. My dad worked seven days a week on all the holidays, Christmas, every single day, so we didn't get to spend a lot of time with him unless we went to the store to see him. One would presume that, you know, everything was great from the outside.

What a perfect life. How could things be any better. Hey, this guy's got it made. He hit the American dream. But that dream was short lived. On June 9th, 1982, Warner's wife and daughter rushed into the Northbrook police station and tell officers that the 38-year-old

local businessman has killed himself. I don't know how you got killing yourself with holes. Lying in a pile of blood, I was in some shock. We were together for a little bit, and then they separated us. Moments later, officers arrive at Warner's home. Don't know what you're walking into. So we went into the home, and we're on the alert, obviously. We had our guns drawn, and we're looking around.

We cleared the first floor. We went up to the second floor, and then we found Werner Hartman laying on his back. Obviously, shot up, full of bullet holes. It was very apparent that it was not a suicide. I would characterize it as resembling an assassination. Coming up, was this wealthy businessman really what he seemed? Oh, my God, he owed everybody money. And an unlikely suspect is revealed.

They started having an affair. He couldn't help but he loved her. When officers arrive at the home of successful businessman Warner Hartman on June 9, 1982, they are taken aback by the brutality of his death. You could see all the bullets, some mist, some didn't, that went into the room, spent casing doll over, a body full of holes, looks like a war zone. It would seem to me that he was totally caught by surprise. He came out of the bath and bang. Based on the pattern and number of shots,

police suspect that Warner was killed with an automatic weapon. I knew it was a gun with a clip of at least 20 or 30. It was a semi-automatic weapon that could, you know, obviously hold a lot around. We figured it was a Mac 10. Judging by the nature of the line of bullet holes up this guy's would be consistent with his mechanism of death. It did look like somebody went brrrr right up his midline.

Whoever did it wanted to make sure he was dead. The detectives arrived on the scene and quickly get up to speed. He was outside of the bathroom and heading for the bedroom was sort of like a hallwayish sort of area. He was shot repeatedly from the front and fell on to his back and was basically looking up the ceiling. Very obvious that there was not a burglary that had gone bad. There was no forced entry. The house was not ransacked. I've never read about a robbery going bad

where someone shot 14 times this had to be pursued. While investigators examining the crime scene find no fingerprints, they do uncover clues that suggest the glitz and glamour the Hartman's outwardly displayed was a facade. In her house, I mean it was a nice area, but the house was really a dump inside. There was piles and piles of late bills. Bills are under the desk all over. I mean, the unpaid bills, gas, electric, mortgage, car payments. After wrapping up at the crime scene, detectives had back to the station to get more intel from

Warner's wife, Debra, and his daughter, Eva. I'm in tears, freaking out. I'm besides myself. I am a total mess. While Eva collects herself, detectives sit down with Debra for a formal interview. She did not seem defensive at all.

She did seem upset. Her statements to us were that she was in love with Mr. Harper with Warner, and that she was truly sad and quiet as death. According to Deborah, she didn't have much to do with her husband's business, but even she knew that Warner was struggling. He wasn't focusing on that business.

It was starting to go down the tubes. You know, he had built this great thing, and he wasn't being receptive, apparently, to customers. Mr. Hartman and Deborah Hartman spent more than the business was bringing in. Deborah fears her husband may have turned to one of his customers with ties to organized crime for help.

Her whole thing was there were so much debt that he must have got money from the mob. He wasn't paying the back. Start it with a mob hit. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some links here. That it was juice loans, and maybe they were trying to get back in it, Werner. With Werner's failing business, an easy loan from the mob would have seemed like the solution

to all his problems. But based on the crime scene, investigators immediately doubt that theory. First of all, if it was a mob hit, it wouldn't be that messy. A mob hit would be a stomach, heart, head, three shots. That's how they make sure you die. Secondly, mob guys are in business, right? So let's say Werner did borrow money from the mob, right? If they kill Werner, they're never going to get any money.

None of that makes any sense. 14 shots? That's pretty personal. You don't need that many shots to kill somebody. Convince to the murder is personal. Police give Eva and Debra a gunshot residue test before releasing them. While the results will take a few weeks to come back, in the meantime, detectives call Vi Crews Warner's ex-wife to tell her the news. She was hysterical and she just got in the car and rushed to the police station and just

couldn't believe it. When they calmed her down and she verified the story that she had been with Deborah and her daughter dancing around having a good old time, out clubbing. VICE says that after the divorce, she made peace with Warner and his new wife before moving to Florida. Then, a few months before Warner's death, VICE says he called her up and begged her

for help with the business. She came in and she was astounded to see the books showing all this debt. Oh my God, he owed everybody money. Jewelry furs Rolls-Rises, luxury car, luxury home, prestigious suburb. That's not a cheap lifestyle. He was down to like nothing in money. I mean, for a guy who had, we all thought millions.

And there was basically no money left. VICE says that she told Warner that he needed to get his spending under control, but the problem was Deborah. Deborah, you know, would show up, come get money out of the cash register, and then leave. She went to New York with her girlfriend, spent thousands of dollars. It started going out to nightclubs.

She was spending his money, they see downtown Chicago throwing champagne bottles out of the Rolls Royce. According to Vi, Warner confided that Deborah's spending wasn't the only problem in the relationship. She had a boyfriend, and his name was John Corbett. Vi says that 30-year-old John was an out-of-work pro-tennis player who had come into Warner's shop looking for a stereo when he locked eyes with Deborah about six months prior to the murder. He was a lot younger than Warner, a lot younger.

He was sort of tall, seemed like a fairly good-looking guy. Let's put it this way. He seemed more like her type than Warner would have. He was a hunk, and Werner was Werner. You know, he was a nice man who loved her passionately, but she was young and they took a liking to one another, shall we say, and they started having an affair. According to Vi, Deborah lavish John,

like Warner, had lavished her. They were both driving convertibles, you know, it was just, like a scene from Magnum PI or something. Allegedly, Warner put up with the affair, even allowing John to move into his home with Deborah. John was staying there, and my dad was sleeping on the couch. That was like the most bizarre thing to me. There were various allegations of infidelity

and arguments regarding property. So it was a conflicted relationship. Warner felt though that eventually, there's ever more you're tired of John, and she'd come back to him. She had her hook in him deep. He couldn't help himself. He loved her.

However, according to Vi, Warner's hope to reconcile his marriage began to waver. It seemed Debra had her sights set on John, leaving Warner to make a difficult decision. Verner did file for divorce against Debra and tried to recover some of the property, a givener, the minks, the cars. I created a lot of attention, fights, big ones.

There had been some incidents at the house where the police were called. MUSIC While investigators begin to look into Debra's alleged relationship with John Corbeck, on July 4, 1982, investigators get the results from the gunshot residue analysis that was performed on Deborah and her stepdaughter, Eva Hartman. Deborah's hands did not show any gunshot residue.

Eva's showed gunshot residue. Mine came out positive from the gun powders. It was the most horrifying experience. I just lost my dad. And on top of all that, they thought I was involved. Detectives are faced with the disturbing theory that Eva might be the killer, which makes her mother and stepmother potential accessories.

Somebody would have had to cover for her if she did it, because she was with Deborah and or Vi all the time. So she had an alibi. Unless that alibi was also false, was be providing a cover up for her. I was also false. Was, you know, providing a cover up for her. Detectives call Eva to the station for an interview. When confronted with the results of the test,

Eva becomes hysterical and swears that she is innocent. She was very confused and delirious. She was very traumatized. She hadn't had sleep. Because she was upset, we felt that perhaps she was unable to give us as much information as we thought she might have. Coming up, investigators pull out all the stops to get to the truth.

Sometimes people suppress things subconsciously that they don't know about until they get hypnotized. We went into an office and they turned off the lights and I just sat down and kind of liked you seeing the movies. The hardest true crime story to report on is your own. I'm Tiffany Reese, host of the podcast Something was Wrong. For 15 seasons, I've always aimed to validate and amplify the voices of those who have survived abuse and crime. But for season 16, I'm opening up for the first time about my own experiences as an abuse survivor and a murder co-victim.

With the help of trusted friends, we'll unpack my journey to becoming a victim advocate by examining my past. From the emotional and physical abuse I endured at the hands of my parents and the bullying I received from my classmates to the murder of my brother and the securities fraud my father was convicted of, I'm covering it all and even learning more about myself through this process. This is obviously a very personal journey for me, but I believe that this will play a part in my healing helping me to process the trauma that I endured.

Follow something was wrong wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. listen early and add free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. It's been nearly a month since Warner Hartman was murdered in his home and detectives are desperate to know if his daughter Eva Hartman may be involved in his death. Any time you fire a weapon certain powders and elements are given off. One of the reasons to test is to determine if that person had or had the opportunity to have a gun in their hand, in Avis case, gunshot residue got on her hand.

Though Eva is adamant she is innocent, detectives decide to take an unusual approach to find the truth. If you lost all your avenue, sometimes people suppress things subconsciously. I've seen it and sometimes it works. Sometimes they see things or hear things that they don't know about until they get hypnotized.

At this point, I was willing to do anything. So I was very cooperative. I did everything that they asked me to. We went into an office and they turned off the lights where it was, you know, darkened and then the person who was hypnotizing me. And I just sat down kind of like you see in the movies and he kind of just had you relax. in the movies and he kind of just had you relax. When the psychologist questions Eva about Warner's murder, it becomes obvious that they have hit a wall.

In spite of its abilities to relax people and get people to remember things, they might not otherwise remember. In this case, wasn't really generating the memories that we wanted to know about. I mean, they had nothing. There was basically nothing more to it. She didn't seem like she was involved.

I did everything. I have no sense that everything they wanted me to do go over, and at that point, they said they finally have confirmed I've been telling the truth. That 14-year-old girl didn't gun her father down, OK? Detectives have to find another explanation for the gunshot residue on Eva's hands. If she saw him laying there, she might have

stepped over and grabbed them. You can get a transference. And there was enough residue in stepped over and grabbed them. You can get a transference. And there was enough residue in that body to trust me. I had touched all the walls, walking up, and my dad. So that's how I had gunpowder on me. Back at Square One, detectives ask John Corbeck, the boyfriend of Warner's wife, Deborah Hartman,

to come to the station for an interview. He had no criminal record that we knew that I knew of at the time. He had never been arrested for anything. He had an alibi. He said he was having dinner with his boss. The boss and his wife corroborated that. When John's alibi checks out, police have no choice but to release him. It's a perfect alibi. I mean police have no choice but to release him. It's a perfect alibi.

I mean, you just don't know what you're looking for, but you cover all your bases. Detectives begin reaching out to those connected to Warner, including his friend and attorney, Richard Columbac. Richard details a disturbing conversation he shared with Warner just days before his murder. He called up, goes, Mr. Columbia, I'm scared. Now, like, what? What are you scared of? He said, I overheard my wife and her boyfriend talking.

They didn't know I was there, and they were talking about how to kill me. And I said, if you're at the house, leave the house. Immediately go to the police, leave the house. Immediately go to the police or call the police. And he said, I'll do it and I'm really scared. Police have no record of Warner filing a report with them, but the story finally gives them what they need, a suspect.

When someone calls you and says my wife and boyfriend are plotting to kill me, and they subsequently get killed within a day or two, it never occurred to me that anyone else could have done it. Looking for a solid motive, detectives contact Warner's insurance company for details about his life insurance. Listen, the three things for murder, basic. a solid motive, detectives contact Warner's insurance company for details about his life insurance.

Listen, the three things for murder, basic money, sex, remains, that's it. Those are the three motives. It's not rocket science. You just follow the money, as they say. There were two insurance policies. It was also discovered that there was a third insurance policy that apparently

was issued on Mr. Hartman's life. I think it'd be almost a million if you total up the policies. And one of them, I believe, was double indemnity. If you died not from natural causes, you get twice the proceeds. If Warner was drowning in debt and considering divorce, detectives believe Debra and John had only one option to keep up their lavish lifestyle. There's your motor right there, you know. It's huge.

We think now that she's involved in it's time to start focusing on her more than the past. Detectives contact Deborah for a second interview, but they are directed to her newly hired lawyer instead. She wouldn't make any statement, and at that point nobody was making a statement against her. Please, couldn't find enough evidence that could stand up in court. There were no eye witnesses to the murder. They really didn't have enough to go on.

After months of running down evidence, leads begin to fizzle, and the case grows cold. Debra collects her insurance, and she and John part ways. Debra stayed in the house for a while, but she couldn't afford it, you know, and so she moved to a much more modest place than an joining suburb, dear field. Nobody had been charged and everybody assumed that they were just two or did it. And I think it was just so outrageous that nothing had happened. However, after two long years, in 1984, authorities finally catch a break.

In a seemingly unrelated case, ATF agents arrest gun runner 58-year-old Ken Canal, who was trying to sell undercover agents illegal guns. It was this career criminal. The guy lived in jail in an auto jail. There was no big thing, Jam. In one of the many undercover recorded conversations with Ken, he mentions firing a unique gun

in his basement, a Mac 10, the same kind of gun used to kill Warner Hartman. The friend of his started working in a gun store, the gun shop. And he was very knowledgeable about guns. So they gave him this Mac, can I believe? Can in his basement tried it out, and it just kept firing.

It was very rare, and you didn't see them very often. In other state policemen, but wow, that's the same kind of gun that was used in Werner's murder. As detectives work to connect Ken to Werner Hartman's murder, they make a shocking discovery that changes the course of the investigation. Ken Kennell was John's former roommate. Coming up, detectives get an unlikely ally.

He was very crafty and a seasoned criminal. Oh, what am I going to get out of this? But can he be trusted to deliver? He was supposed to incriminate the others. She'd left him a little gift of $3,000. $3,000. Three years after businessman Warner Hartman was gunned down in his home, investigators suspect that convicted gun runner Ken Cannell may be tied to Warner's unsolved murder. On May 9, 1986, detectives arrange

for an interview with Ken. They said, oh, so what do you know about Warner Hartman? He was a little startled, and he was like, whoa, they know about that. Ken's reaction convinces police that they are on the right track. But Ken isn't the type to talk. He was very crafty and a seasoned criminal, what am I going to get out of this? So he was willing to help as he saw it.

Officers say that nothing Ken says will be used against him if he tells them what he knows about Warner. Ken agrees. He said John and Deborah contacted him and they asked him if he'd kill Vernifer then. It was a 380 caliber automatic pistol in the promise of a large sum of money if he would shoot the husband. And he said yes at first. So they gave him this Mac, can I believe? And Ken in his basement tried it first. So they gave him this Mac, Tann, I believe, and Ken, in his basement, tried it out.

He crawled into a cross-base under his house, test fired the gun, which, according to him, was rigged that when you pulled the trigger, it went full auto in the entire magazine emptied at once. When stopped spilling bullets, and he thought, I don't want to work with the something like that. He said, forget it. He got a cold feet, gave him a gun back.

It's a nah. It's not a job for me. Before the interview with Ken is over, investigators ask him to pay Debra a visit while wearing a wire. We say, if you wear the wire and do what we ask, then your sentence will be lighter. So he agreed to wear a wire and go talk to Deborah. In May of 1986, Ken visits his old friend, Deborah,

at her home in Deerfield, Illinois. They were hoping they didn't criminate her, and that would be really good for any case. But somehow, they did trust Ken. I mean, you know, he was kind of a slippery type. And they went to the house, Deborah's house, and they saw him go in. He was supposed to be getting her to incriminate the others. But instead, he said to her, so that was the end of that.

They never got her to incriminate herself, and then they knew he was not the best witness to have, because he was willing to try to help his friends. Without Ken's testimony, the investigation stalls yet again. That is, until 1988, when detectives decide to take a second look at the paperwork for Warner's life insurance policies. They had an expert look at it, and the technician could say that wasn't Bern burn her heart and signature.

If the documents had been forged without Warner's knowledge, detectives suspect that Deborah must have had help. We believe Deborah conspired with one of his professionals to change his insurance policy, and we didn't know which one it was. I looked at phone records, and they found evidence that she had been making a series of calls, just prior to the murder.

Two, John, of course, and then the insurance agent, Harvey. Luton. Detectives confront 52-year-old Harvey Luton at his office. Harvey collapsed immediately and dissolved, and agreed he'd been part of the scheme. Harvey tells police that Warner had contacted him in March of 1982 to tell him that he was divorcing Debra and wanted to take her off his life insurance. He said, I'm changing them to my daughters. They will be the sole beneficiaries.

Not long after, Harvey says he received a visit from Debra, who was dressed to the nines. She cycled up to him and said very, you know, very sexily, I'd like you to change this one policy and just have me as the sole beneficiary. She'd left him a little gift of $3,000, and she'd also kind of, you know, it's been very suggestive and sexy, and he was getting all kinds of illusions

about the time he could spend with Deborah. Harvey says that everything went smoothly until he received a phone call from Warner in early June. Warner got some notice that his policy was changed. And then he called, you know, and said, hey, you got to change this. He said, I want my daughters, Eva, and Stephanie to be the sole beneficiaries. And Luke didn't he'd change it. Instead, Harvey says he called Deborah to warn her that her husband was catching on. If you look at the totality of the situation, it appears that she was instrumental in trying

to plan his murder. I think if he never would have changed the policy, my dad never lived in runners. Coming up, detectives call in the big guns to close the case. When the federal government comes after you, they don't lose. And a long, awaited trial makes front page news. It was headlines. It was big. She dressed up like she's a little school girl. You know, I didn't do anything.

You can't prove anything. In January 1989, nearly seven years after the murder of Warner Hartman, police have zeroed in on his wife, Deborah Hartman, as the crime's mastermind. There was just not enough proof because they cleaned up so well, and obviously this was a planned murder, and they did a really good job at covering it up. It just went stagnant.

It took a long time. It took seven years for them to finally pull it together. They're trying to pull together enough threads to have a case that will stand up in court. But they really didn't have enough to go on. Though state prosecutors don't have enough evidence to bring murder charges, federal prosecutors, on the other hand do find a reason to become involved. FBI only get involved if a federal law has been violated. Illinois State Police stepped in.

When it appeared it was an insurance fraud which if the males are used can become a federal crime, that's when the feds got involved. They got down from the mail fraud because they mailed the fraudulent document in the mail. They forged the life insurance policy. When the federal government comes after you or puts you under their microscope or investigates you, they don't lose. They got the money, the time, and the resources. The federal case had to do with the actual insurance policies.

That's really what it centered on, okay? And the fraud that took place in both obtaining the insurance policy and paying on insurance policy becomes a federal crime because of the effects across the lines. I understood the fact that law enforcement and the prosecutors of course wanted to prove everything, but you have to go with your strongest case because you're not going to get a second enforcement and the prosecutors, of course, wanted to prove everything. But you have to go with your strongest case, because you're not going to get a second shot at it. The reality is they didn't have the evidence necessary

to prove who committed the murder. On January 20, 1989, Debra Hartman, her ex-boyfriend, John Corbeck, John's former roommate Ken Cannell and Warner's insurance agent, Harvey Lukton, are arrested and charged with wire and mail fraud. I got a phone call and it was like, it was the happiest news ever because I just thought that they were gonna, you know, that they got away with murder, and nothing's gonna happen.

And there was just nothing we could really do. They did not have a murder charge, yes. But at the same time, you have to look at the good. In November, 1989, John and and Deborah are tried together. Though they aren't on trial for murder, evidence from that night is allowed to be presented as the motive for the fraud. Prosecutors start by saying that Deborah was a gold digger who risked losing her meal ticket in a divorce.

Deborah did not want to go back to the life that she was once doing. Now she's different. She has everything. She wasn't willing to give all that up. It was enough motive to murder my father. She was in her for the money. And when the money was gone, she had to come up with something. His insurance policy was there, and that was her payday.

Prosecutors believe that after John's former roommate Ken backed out of being the Tringerman, John agreed to do the shooting himself. She knew how to track men and ensnare them and use her powers in that way. I think John was smitten with her just like Warner was and he went along with the program just to make sure that she got her money and they could be together.

Prosecutors alleged that on June 8, 1982, Debra went out with Warner's daughter and ex-wife while John snuck into Warner's home with a Mac 10 machine gun. He was shot 14 times in his head and throughout his body. And then while the body is lying there, he then drilled him again. Prosecutors say that John then fled the scene

to solidify his alibi, allowing Deborah to return home and play the shocked widow. Yes, stuck a 14-year-old child. You had her walk up the stairs when you knew that body was around the corner. You knew I was going to find my dad, my dad, dead body. That is a cruel, sick person. After the prosecutor's powerful argument, defense attorneys remind jurors that although there

is evidence that John and Deborah benefited from Warner's death, there is no evidence that they actually killed him. They were sitting there and she dressed up like, you know, like she's a little school girl. You know, I didn't do anything. You can't prove anything. Debra was still like, you know, playing o-way. I didn't do it.

She had on her long-lead coat, her hair, Donna, her face, her makeup. Can't prove who the murder was. Who shot whom? Uh, where's the gun? They could never find the gun. I can't prove who the murder was, who shot whom? Where's the gun? They could never find the gun. After a three week trial,

the jury returns with a verdict on December 15, 1989. I think she was very astounded when they found them guilty. Jury only took like three hours to come up with the verdict. So there's 10 women and the two gentlemen, I think, saw through things very quickly. John is sentenced to 16 years in prison and on March 12, 1990, Debra receives her sentence. Debra was sentenced to 22 years in prison.

I really think that Deborah was more shocked than anybody, because she just thought, I'm gonna get away with this. Although Deborah isn't found guilty of murder, there is hope that one day she will be held accountable for the crimes that many believe she orchestrated. Was justice served, not yet, and maybe one day will get the break they need to bring the

rest to the case? She should be in prison for life, for the murder of her husband. She was the author, the producer, that was all done because of her. He married to Debra, he just didn't know it, poor guy. Debra was a user, and the sky was, you know, just wanted affection, and it led him to his death. I'm sorry that you went so soon, Dad. You were so young, and I love you, and I miss you,

and I wish you were still here with us and I wish that you could have met your grandchildren. You have five of them. You love you, dad. In 1990, Ken Canal was sentenced to 20 years in prison for male and wire fraud. Harvey Luchton was sentenced to two years in prison for male and wire fraud. Harvey Luketon was sentenced to two years in prison for a withdrawal on the crime. In 2002, after serving 12 years, Debra Hartman was released.

Her current location is unknown. The murder of Warner Hartman remains an open case. you