So Supernatural - CONSPIRACY: Bob Lazar

Episode Date: September 15, 2021

In 1989, Bob Lazar joined a top secret project out of Area 51 — supposedly reverse engineering alien technologies. When he was threatened to stay silent about his work, Bob took the opposite approach, blowing the whistle on the government's knowledge about UFOs. Today, he's still paying the price. 

Whether or not you buy into the idea of government conspiracies, you've probably at least heard of a place called Area 51. For years, the U.S. government flat out denied the facility existed. But eventually, they admitted it was the testing ground for some of the world's most advanced aerial technologies. Those who worked at the base say they were sworn to secrecy, unable to tell anyone what went on behind those sealed hangar doors. But in 1989, an Area 51 employee named Bob Lazar decided the American people had a right to know exactly what their government was up to. So he went on the record and made a bold confession. The top secret base wasn't just building fancy airplanes. They were reverse engineering alien technology. This is Supernatural. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

This week, I'm talking about an icon in the UFO world. The man who first brought the connection between Area 51 and aliens to the public lexicon. In 1989, Bob Lazar was hired as a senior physicist on a top-secret project at Area 51. And when the secrets he knew eventually put his life at risk, Bob decided his best insurance policy was to tell the world exactly what he'd seen. I have all that and more coming up. Stay with us. On May 15th, 1989, Las Vegas residents tuned into the local news to find a pretty unconventional interview. A man hidden behind shadows introduced himself as Dennis. He sat in the front seat of a news van, his voice quivering with

nerves, probably because he was about to make a reality-shattering announcement. Dennis, whose real name was Bob Lazar, claimed that he'd worked at a facility in Area 51 called S-4, and he knew of at least nine alien aircraft that had been recovered and stored at the facility. Some of them were fully intact and totally operational. His job was to figure out exactly how they worked. Now, it's possible that Bob was making this whole thing up for attention. But once you hear his story, I think you'll find that probably wasn't the case. In the 1970s, Bob's your anything but average teenager growing up in Coral Gables, Florida.

Instead of skimming Playboy and spending his free time at the beach, Bob's devouring issues of popular mechanics and installing jet engines on bicycles. He goes on to get degrees at both Caltech and MIT. And fresh out of college, he's recruited as a physicist at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. He works on this half-mile-long particle accelerator, studying how atoms, molecules, and radiation work. This job is basically as cool as it can possibly get for any physicist, unless you're Bob Lazar. In January 1989, Bob interviews at a defense company in Nevada called EG&G. As far as he

knows, they're a private contractor that develops weapons for the U.S. government, so it's a little different from his work at Los Alamos. But Bob is a bit of a pyromaniac. So he thinks, I get to build explosives? Great, sign me up. When Bob's called back for a second interview a few days later, he learns he's way overqualified for the position. They tell him his skills make him much better suited for a senior physicist role in their special projects division. But he's got to go through a rigorous background check and get approved for security clearance before he can get total access. Until then, Bob will have to work on a provisional basis,

which means he won't be housed on site just yet. In the meantime, he lives with his wife in Las Vegas. And when they need him, EG&G will call him up and fly him out to their headquarters at Groom Lake, about 100 miles north of the city. So you can imagine how fast Bob's heart is racing when a few nights later, he gets that fateful call. He heads over to the airport and meets up with the man who will

essentially become his supervisor, this G.I. Joe looking guy named Dennis Mariani. They hop aboard an unmarked plane and take off for Groom Lake, or as it's now publicly known, Area 51. Once they land, Dennis takes Bob to this navy blue school bus with blacked out windows. I guess to try and keep Bob from knowing exactly where they're going. And after about 40 minutes of driving down a bumpy road, the bus comes to a stop in front of a large dirt hill. A set of fairly unwelcoming doors are built right into that hill. And behind those doors, Bob follows Dennis into this small room. There's nothing inside except for a machine about the size of an ATM. Dennis

places his hand on the machine's surface, which has these little pins that separate his fingers so he can scan his fingerprints. Now keep in mind, this is the late 80s. Technology like this is still like something out of a science fiction novel. And once they're scanned in, another door opens up into this infinite hallway where this petite woman greets them. She says she'll need only about 30 minutes of Bob's time. The woman escorts Bob to this exam room. At this point, he's probably pretty spooked. I mean, he's in the middle of the desert in some giant bunker being laid down on a table with no idea what's about to happen. The nurse runs a couple of routine tests like an eye exam, heart rate, blood pressure.

But then things get a little strange. She tells Bob she needs to perform an allergy test. eye exam, heart rate, blood pressure. But then things get a little strange. She tells Bob she needs to perform an allergy test. But when Bob asks what they're testing for, the woman only says exotic materials. After she wraps up, Dennis shows Bob to this windowless office with a giant stack of blue file folders on the desk. Dennis tells him to take a seat and dig in. The

files relate to the project that he's assigned to, and once he's approved for his security clearance, he'll get access to even more. Now, Bob's first thought is, it's kind of weird that there's nothing on these folders indicating they belong to EG&G. Which makes him wonder, like, who is he really working for? Is he actually building weapons or is there something else going on here? Bob cracks open the first folder and sees the words Project Galileo. Below that, he spots something that really gets his adrenaline pumping. Allegedly, the purpose of Project Galileo is to, quote, back engineer a propulsion system of an extraterrestrial craft, end quote. So at this point, Bob's like, hang on, is this some sort of joke? Like this can't possibly be real, right? Well, if it's a prank, someone put a lot of effort into it because

there's pages and pages of data for Bob to digest. For example, he learns that this project has been in the works for a while. Apparently, other scientists have already tried to crack the propulsion system and came to life-threatening conclusions. And when Bob picks up another file marked biology, he finds two black and white images of a small body, one that's undeniably not human. Its chest cavity is exposed like it's been prepared for dissection. As you can imagine, this is a lot for Bob to take in. Everything he's ever known about the universe has been completely turned upside down. Not only do aliens exist, but they're here. For all Bob knows, they could be in the next room over. Coming up, Bob gets up close and personal with an alien spacecraft. Now back to the story.

It's Bob Lazar's first day of work at Area 51 and the guy's already in way over his head. Just moments ago, Bob learned that aliens do exist and his government has proof. Now he's being escorted through the sterile hallways of Facility S4 into a high-tech lab to see for himself. This is where Dennis introduces Bob to his new lab partner, a man named Barry Castillo. And from there, it's pretty much off to the races. Barry shows him what looks like this pewter garbage can that you might find at an antique shop,

and a small metal half-sphere about the size of a basketball. According to Barry, this is the emitter and the reactor from one of the spaceships. Together, they operate kind of like an engine. So Bob does what almost anyone would do when they see an alien aircraft. He reaches out and tries to touch it. But as soon as he puts his hand near that garbage can, it pushes him away with this powerful force. He says it feels like the ends of two magnets when you try and push the wrong sides together,

only way more intense. Bob learns it's a form of anti-gravity technology, something no human has ever mastered before. And now he's supposed to recreate it. Needless to say, this is a wild first day of work. After this orientation, Bob's sent back home to Vegas until his next shift. And he's probably thinking, how am I supposed to crawl back into bed with my wife tonight or go grocery shopping tomorrow knowing what I know and not tell anyone. But over the next few weeks, he manages to keep conversations about his new job to a bare minimum, which is

probably a smart idea. The longer Bob works at S4, the more he realizes they take confidentiality really seriously. Armed security officers are constantly in the lab with him and Barry. They practically follow them into the bathroom stalls. Whether these hired guns are meant to protect or threaten the employees at S4, Bob never gets a clear answer, but he assumes the latter. And making friends at work is out of the question. The project is separated into departments that are not allowed to communicate with each other, like, at all. Bob can't even glance at someone from another department. If he needs someone to pass the salt in the cafeteria, he has to ask the guards to do it for him. And for all the stress and secrecy, it's not like Bob is making millions at this job. He's taking home the equivalent of

about a grand a week in today's money, which isn't nothing, but he's a senior physicist working on planet-altering technologies. I mean, somebody give this guy a raise. Clearly, Bob's doing this work for the experience, not the paycheck, because he keeps showing up and giving it his all. But for the first few weeks, Bob and Barry are stuck on the same big puzzle. How does this reactor operate? How can this tiny machine do things that nothing else on Earth can do? So they take a closer look at what the emitter and reactor are made of, or better yet, what's powering them.

And what they find is pretty wild. Most fuel is a cocktail of elements. Like, for example, gasoline is made up of over a hundred different mixtures of hydrogen and carbon. But this alien substance, which is codenamed LA-1000, is composed of one single element. And we don't have it here on Earth. Now, after Bob makes this discovery, he does something a little stupid. Supposedly, he pockets some of that LA 1000 and takes it home with him, which may or may not be the reason things start spiraling out of control. Because it's around this time that his wife notices a few guys staking out their house. Bob brushes it off, thinking maybe this has something to do with his security clearance, which he's still waiting for approval on, by the way,

and that may be why he and Barry are still hitting roadblocks in the lab. Without the full clearance, they only have access to the reactor and the emitter. And there's, it works. Because one day, Bob shows up and Dennis is like, you're not going to the lab today. You're going to be working outside. Dennis leads Bob and Barry to this large open hangar. And as they get closer, Bob sees the sun glistening on this massive aluminum-colored flying saucer. The craft has no landing gear or wheels to support it. Instead, the base just kind of rests on the floor. There don't appear to be any seams, so Bob's mind is reeling as he tries to picture how this thing could have been made. But the inside is even more spectacular. On the first level, there are these tiny seats that look like they would barely fit a middle schooler. And there aren't any switches or controls that someone might need to say,

I don't know, drive a spacecraft. And yet, it's totally operational. One of the technicians in the room somehow turns on the saucer, and Bob hears this ear-piercing hiss coming from the machine. It slowly lifts off the ground and hovers about 40 feet above them, and underneath there's a faint blue light that's almost hypnotizing. The whole demonstration lasts a matter of minutes, but Bob will remember it for a lifetime. Right after this, though, things get even stranger. Bob goes home and hears nothing from S4 or Dennis for weeks. Just crickets.

At this point, it's been about three months since Bob started working at S4. This is the longest stretch he's gone without being called in, so it's pretty disconcerting. And since Bob's spending a lot more of his time at home, he realizes, Oh shoot, I think I am being watched. Just down the street, Bob sees the car his wife described, a Buick or maybe a Chevy with two men in dark suits and black sunglasses. And when Bob goes out to run an errand, they follow him. And they tail him back to his house that night.

Eventually, another car with two other men shows up to relieve them. Those guys sit there until morning. So Bob does what you're always yelling at people to do in the movies. He calls the cops. He watches them pull up, talk to the two men in the car, get back into their patrol car, and just drive away. Like, the police literally do nothing, which just freaks Bob out even more. This goes on and on for days, maybe even weeks. Eventually, Bob starts carrying a gun with him for protection. And all the while, Dennis still won't return his calls.

March turns to April, and at this point, Bob's thinking he'll never step foot at Area 51 again. So he thinks, well, if I'm not going back, maybe I can tell my wife and a few close friends what I've been working on over there. That way, at least if something happens to me, they'll know why. But how do you tell someone that you've been reverse engineering alien spacecraft? Well, if you're Bob Lazar, you take them out to Area 51 and show them for yourself. Bob knows that every Wednesday at 8 p.m. the facility runs test flights, apparently with those alien spaceships or maybe with the planes they've reverse engineered from them. So Bob grabs a few of his closest friends, his wife, and some binoculars and drives out to Area 51. A little while after they get there, a bright orange light appears over the mountains,

then starts zigzagging through the night sky. Now, even Bob's civilian friends know this thing is not your typical airplane. It's easily going 700 miles per hour, while your average commercial aircraft travels a little under 600. And it's erratically switching its course without slowing down, then stopping abruptly. Bob points out the human skeleton cannot withstand a force like that. It would be like hitting a concrete wall in a jet plane. Bob's friends don't need any more proof than that. As far as they're concerned, the government has extraterrestrial craft. Unfortunately, this moment of vindication might cost Bob his life. Coming up, Bob faces the consequences. Now back to the story.

It's April 1989, and weeks have passed since Bob was last called to S4. And then, one day, Dennis shows up at his front door. Dennis basically bullies Bob into his car, and the two drive out to an office park in Indian Springs, Nevada. As soon as Bob sees he's being greeted by armed guards, he knows he's in deep trouble. He's brought into this interrogation room and told his little trip out to the desert did not go unnoticed. Dennis says something like, we told you this was a classified project. So what makes you think you can tell all your friends about it?

So, yeah, busted. Dennis has Bob write down the names and contact information of the people he took to Groom Lake. But then the conversation takes an unexpected turn. Because Dennis wants to know who Bob's been working for. I mean, it's 1989, the tail end of the Cold War. Because Dennis wants to know who Bob's been working for. I mean, it's 1989, the tail end of the Cold War. Clearly, these guys assume Bob is a Russian spy. But he's not.

And he does his best to try and convince Dennis of that. Whether or not it works, I have no idea. But eventually, the interrogation comes to an end and Bob is told he's free to go. But this is hardly goodbye. A few weeks later, Bob is getting onto the freeway somewhere in Vegas. He spots this other car speeding up next to him, trying to stay like neck and neck. And at first, Bob thinks this is just some jerk trying to race him. Until a shot rings out.

Bob's tire gives and his car goes spiraling. Luckily, he manages to swing the car back onto the shoulder and get into the grass, avoiding any serious damage. But by that point, his assailants are nowhere to be found. That's when it hits him. Somebody wants him dead. As far as Bob's concerned, he got lucky today. Next time, he might really end up dead. And there will be a next time. Unless he blows the whistle on what he knows before they get another chance to stop him.

And I know it sounds backwards, but think about it. After he goes public, if the people at S4 do kill him, everyone would know he was telling the truth, right? It's risky, but Bob doesn't have much to lose. So his friends put him in touch with a Las Vegas newscaster named George Knapp. Together, they strategize on the best way for Bob to give an interview. His face won't be shown, and instead of his own name, he'll use a pseudonym. And ironically, he decides to go by Dennis. On May 15th, 1989, the fake Dennis appears on the evening news. He confesses that the government has alien spacecraft in their possession,

that they run on a propulsion system unlike anything humankind has ever created, and that his life is being threatened by the people who are keeping this secret. Six months later, in November 1989, Bob comes out from behind that shadowy curtain for another interview with George Knapp. This time he shows his face, tells the world his real name, and his full story. The broadcast becomes the highest rated news special the station's ever done. Bob's story spreads like wildfire. News channels all over the world pick it up. And of course, they question whether or not Bob is actually telling the truth. To be honest, even George Knapp has a hard time making that call.

After the first interview, George tries digging up everything he can on Bob's background, but it isn't easy because Bob's past doesn't exist. For starters, Bob says that he worked at Los Alamos for several years, but when George contacts the facility, they say they have no record of a Bob Lazar ever working there. Except if someone tried to erase him, they did a pretty sloppy job because George locates a company phone book from Bob's time at Los Alamos, and it has Bob's name in it. And when George gets in touch with the recruiters who'd hired Bob, they admit they have a record of him as well. George apparently even speaks to other people who could confirm Bob worked at Los Alamos.

The same thing happens when George looks into Bob's time at MIT and Caltech. No record of Bob, but other people saw him around campus and were positive he'd studied there. And as Bob puts it, you don't get hired at Los Alamos right out of high school. Either way, it seems like Bob's whistleblowing does get those government hitmen off his back. Because in the years after these interviews, Bob's able to ease back into civilian life. He gets divorced, remarried, moves to Michigan, and starts his own scientific supply company, selling things like uranium and radioactive ore, which is where he might also be storing that LA-1000. You know, the alien jet fuel he snagged? Well, in 2017, that little bit of fuel comes back to haunt him. That year, Bob and filmmaker

Jeremy Korbel are shooting a documentary about Bob's life. During filming, they head to the woods behind Bob's house to discuss a very sensitive part of Bob's story. Did he or did he not get the LA-1000 out of Area 51? In a documentary, Bob doesn't exactly answer the question. But the very next day, Bob's office is raided by dozens of federal authorities, primarily the FBI. Now, the officials claim that they're there to search for old receipts. Allegedly, Bob's company used to manufacture a chemical that's connected to a murder investigation. But the timing of all of this? I mean, come on. Bob and Jeremy are confident that the FBI agents were listening to their conversation about LA-1000 the day before. Because one of them repeats that discussion back to them

verbatim, even though they are allegedly there for something totally unrelated. On top of that, there are a few other details about Bob's story that kind of validate his account for me. For example, back in the 80s when Bob first came forward, it wasn't public knowledge that EG&G did the hiring for Area 51. But Bob knew that, and it's since been confirmed as true. He also knew that weekly test flights happened at 8 p.m. on Wednesdays, and that employees were flown out to Area 51 in unmarked planes. He even identified the guy working on his security clearance, a federal agent named Mike Thigpen, who Jeremy Korbel says confirmed that he remembered Bob. But the biggest piece of evidence to me is the hand scanner. Back in the 80s, Bob spoke about that machine with tiny

pins that granted him access to S4. For years, this part of his story couldn't be validated. But in 2018, an image surfaced proving that these exact hand scanners were used on classified Air Force bases at the time. So if Bob made the whole thing up, then how did he know all these details 30 years before they came to light? Look, I get it. The unknown is scary. Having to shift our entire perspective of reality is even scarier. Is it easier to just point a finger at Bob and say he's lying? Yeah, absolutely. But does it make what he's saying any less true?

I'm not so sure. If anything, blowing the whistle on all of this has made Bob's life more difficult. In fact, he says he regrets coming forward. And if he could go back in time, he would have just kept his mouth shut. But the cat's out of the bag. Or rather, the alien's out of Area 51. And we might just have to start accepting that there's more out there that we just don't know. Thanks for listening. I'll be back next week with another episode. To hear more stories hosted by me, check out Crime Junkie and all AudioChuck originals.