So Supernatural - HAUNTED: Surrey Ghost Car with And That's Why We Drink

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

Rasha and Yvette are joined by Em Schulz and Christine Schiefer from “And That’s Why We Drink” as they talk about a ghostly car crash in Surrey, England, back in 2002. They also discuss tales of paranormal hitchhikers, phantom passengers, and haunted roadways from all across the globe.For a full list of sources, please visit: sosupernaturalpodcast.com/haunted-surrey-ghost-carListen to more from And That's Why We DrinkSo Supernatural is an Audiochuck and Crime House production. Find us on social!Instagram: @sosupernatualpodTwitter: @_sosupernaturalFacebook: /sosupernaturalpod Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

When it comes to ghosts and hauntings, we've come across a lot of different theories on this show. One of my personal favorites is the idea that ghosts are residual energy trapped in space. Almost like how smoke will hover in a room with stagnant air, just waiting for an open window to escape. But until it does, it sort of lingers there, existing in this stasis. Like a snapshot of a moment. that's already passed, which got me wondering, is this what people are actually experiencing during a haunting? A push from a force they can't see, a shadow of a stranger sitting on a bed, the disembodied sound of laughter from another room. Is a haunting just a moment that happened

once upon a time in that same space, replaying over and over again until it finds a way to escape? If you asked the people of Surrey England back in 2002, they'd probably say we hit the nail on the head. Because that December, multiple people witnessed what was later referred to as a ghost crash on a local road, a maroon car swerving and losing control before driving into a ditch. Except when the police arrived,

they found no sign of a collision from that day. They did, however, find evidence to suggest a maroon car had crashed there, claiming a life months before. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is so supernatural with a twist. Because today, Rasha and Yvette have a very special Halloween surprise for you. Welcome back, y'all. Welcome back, y'all. I'm Yvette Jintillay. And I'm her sister, Rasha Pecorero. Today you are getting double the trouble.

As a spooky Halloween surprise, we have invited our friends M. Schultz and Christine Schiefer from And that's why we drink. Yes. Welcome, y'all. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much. And immediately, shiver went down my spine.

Your speaking voices on pockets. They're so powerful. Oh, my gosh. As soon as you said, welcome. or whatever, I went, oh, my God, there are so much more professional. Yeah, when we started our podcast, people were like, M, your laughter sounds like a dolphin or Elmo. And we were like, so that's rude.

That's what's so funny, because we started in true crime with root of evil and then facing evil and also supernatural. So we've always been very, like, podcast voice. I'm like, what do you mean you can't? I'm like, what do you mean you can't use sister voices giggling? I know. But well done. You immediately.

We're hooked. Yes. So honored you're both here. I'm already obsessed with you. Same. Likewise. Yay. Well, I think we have the perfect topic for all of us to talk about today and tell the so-supernatural listeners. Because, of course, I know we have all covered a lot of paranormal stories on both of our shows. And we thought today's case would be a great icebreaker for a discussion on a very niche corner of the haunting world. And that's ghost cars and passengers. I'm very excited. Okay, so do you guys have any stories of your own about this?

I do. Do you tell. Yes, we do. Not on purpose, but I like to think I was named Christine after the haunted car. So I do sort of feel like a connection to that, even though my mom was really annoyed when she realized that was like the connection. Oh, like the murder car, everybody said when I was born in the 90s. I don't know the story of the murder car, Christine. Oh, it's a Stephen King novel called Chris.

Steen, and it's this car that kills people. And my mom, being a German immigrant, was like, this is a nice name. And then, like, apparently in the heyday of that book and the movie, and people were just like, oh, I get it. Like the, like the murder car. And my mom was like, really not that, though. Can we not, though? I can't believe so many people had the bravery to just say that. I have no idea.

But I take it as now, like, a badge of honor. But I don't think my mother really appreciates that. So that's kind of where I come from on this. But I do actually have a personal experience I'll share at some point about like a ghost sleek car experience. Oh, okay. Do tease. Do teas. Well, it sounds like we have a lot to talk about today.

So let's just kick things off with one spine tingling story that I just cannot get out of my head. And that is the case of the Surrey ghost car. Picture this. It's a cold December night, a little after 7 p.m. so the sun's already set. You're driving southbound on a six-lane highway coming home from work. You live in a little English town in the county of Surrey, about 50 minutes south of London. There's nothing but cars and trees on either side of you, but you can see an off-ramp ahead. So you put on your turn signal, and start to merge. When suddenly, you hear tires screech right next to you. Out of nowhere, this small maroon car just zips right by you, just barely missing your passenger side mirror. It veers off the road, disappearing into a ditch.

Yeah, yeah. You slam your foot on the brakes in time to hear a brutal crash. Oh, God. You can't see the car anymore. but its taillights cast an eerie haze in the dark, cold fog. Meanwhile, of course, your heart is literally pounding out of your chest. And that's when you call the police. Yeah, that is.

I'm glad that you walked me through all the steps because I'm like, I think that's exactly what I would do. Except I'd also be crying and maybe calling my mom too. A hundred percent. Although our mom has passed away, so I'd be calling events. Oh, no. I can still call her ghost, though. You can call my mom.

I would still be dialing mom's number. Help me. You bet we'd be calling mom for sure. Yeah, no, but that, okay, like, that's terrifying. I know we're talking about ghostly stuff. So, but my thought is always like, if you see that or experience that and hear it and see it, like, that's so traumatizing. And then it being a, you know, paranormal event, not to spoil anything, but like, that sucks then because then afterward, you feel like, oh, well, now it looks like it was just a ghost. And everyone's like, oh, it was just a ghost.

But, like, you witnessed a car crash, like a really traumatic one. A really bad one. Like, you, I would be assuming, oh, I just watch someone not be here anymore. Let's get back into the story because this isn't just some role-playing exercise. This actually happened on Wednesday, December 11th, 2002 in that English county of Surrey. Local police received not just one, but several calls about a maroon car that ran off the road on the A3 Highway, and first responders arrived on the scene at around 7.20 p.m. And a few witnesses supposedly they had hung around and pointed out to where the car had slid into the

ditch. But when the patrol officers went to the edge of the road, guess what? They saw nothing. They saw no car, no taillights, not even a skid mark on the highway or a broken twig to mark the spot where it had plunged over the side. Ooh. Like, what? Right? Right? So, really, if I were one of the cops, I'd be like, you put sentence to the wrong

spot. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I would be like, as one of the witnesses, like, stop gaslighting me, world. I don't know. Like, I just saw that. I swear. Yeah, exactly.

So the police probably thought, okay, it's dark. Maybe we just missed something. So they decided to do another search in the daylight that following morning. And that's when, about 20 yards away from where they started their search, they saw a little bit of painted metal poking through the bushes. They pulled back the branches and that's when they found a maroon Vaxal Astra, which is a pretty standard compact car, buried beneath layers of underbrush. But it's the car's condition that got the police's attention. Right away, it was clear this car hadn't swerved off the road the night before,

like many of the callers reported seeing. Sure. No. This had been there for a long time, y'all. I'm talking months at least. Oh, that's like you. And they could tell because the astra was now rusty and covered in plants. And not like the plants had fallen on top of the car.

These plants had literally grown over the car. The keys seemed to still be in the ignition. Because when the officers tried to turn the car on, the battery was dead. Oh, boy. But the windshield was intact, but it had a giant spider web crack from the impact. Hmm. And get this, get this, the driver's side door was caved in and jammed shut. But the passenger door was open, suggesting the driver might have

crawled out after the crash. This is so disturbing. I know, right? A few feet away, halfway up the embankment, is where the police found the body of the driver. Oh, no. And was this body? The body was skeletonized. It had been out there so long.

Oh, no. No. So this skeletonized, it means it's, like, really decomposed. Like, really bad. Yeah, but as if a car is rusting, I mean, to the same degree. Right. And if weeds are growing up through the car, it has been out there possibly months. This is so creepy. I know.

And you've never heard of this before, right? You guys don't know about it, okay? No. Not like the Christine murder car. I mean, listen, I heard all about it. Right. I was to say one of my best friends grew up in Surrey and I'm pretty offended. I've never been told this.

I'm pretty offended on your behalf. Like, what the heck? We've had enough sleepovers. They had prime time to tell me a scary story from their home time. well the police end up running the plates through vehicle registration and they learned the car belongs to a 21-year-old named Christopher Chandler Chandler apparently was already in the police database for being a suspect in a robbery but that's not all he was last seen drinking with a friend in West London in July of 2002 and we have to remember Everyone saw this car, and they found this car, the decomposed body, skeleton, all the things, in December of 2002.

So when Christopher's brother hadn't heard from him, he reported his brother missing at that time in July. At the time, the police suspected he may have skipped town, maybe to escape prosecution for the burglary. But now they knew that wasn't the case. Christopher had clearly died in a car accident months ago. And of course, the police, their next step was to check Christopher's phone records to see if there was a way to tell exactly when the accident happened. Now, even though it was, you know, kind of archaic, all the way back in 2002, even though I can't believe that was over 20 years ago,

as they say that, cell phones didn't exist, they were around. Horror story on its own. Well, we do have record that he did make a single call that night, and it was to his brother on July 16th of 2002. The call lasted only a second, and his brother never even knew that he made the call. That's trauma all by itself. So you have to wonder, would anyone have even found Christopher if all those people hadn't reported seeing his exact car, that maroon car, skid off the road months. after the accident happened. Had the universe somehow reenacted the accident?

Yes. I believe the universe would do something like that. I do too. Yeah, and I wonder if was it the anniversary of or something? Like, why is it happening on that day? Right. I mean, they don't know exactly, but they knew that he made that last call in July.

That's all they have, right? And you have that energy that is lingering, right? Of that pain of him trying to reach out for his brother. Right. And I should also mention there hadn't been any other sightings of the phantom car before or after December 11th. Just that once. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Okay, that feels like it was an anniversary or someone on the road had some sort of ability. Yeah. I even have like, we call it chicken skin in Hawaii, but I have goosebumps all over my body. Even though I know this story, it's still, it's chilling to me. Very chilling, yeah. So what do we think? was it a cry for help? Was he trying to be found? Like you're saying, M, like, was it the anniversary of the crash? Or I'm curious to know what you think. Yeah. I mean, I think he was

trying to get somebody to find him and, like, close that chapter somehow or just, like, answer a question that for some reason needed to be answered. And it makes you wonder, like, the timing of it. But it's like maybe, yeah, like Emma said, like maybe somebody on the road that day was the one who needed to, I mean, I think there's probably something about. above my pay grade. Quantum physics, why the heck it happened on a certain day. I don't know. That's just like so, because I was going to say, well, maybe it happened all the time

and this is just the time that like enough people called. Or, yeah, for all we know, maybe like, maybe his brother had just driven on the road or something and it kind of tapped into something. I don't know. Ooh, that didn't even thought about that. That's a good way. Yeah. Or someone that would have cared about him was nearby and he felt like this is the moment.

That's, that is that. I love that you said that because. that is always my thought process is why these given people at that given time, right? Yeah. Are they just themselves very intuitive human beings where they're put in that exact moment and they can sense it and why someone else, you know, didn't at all, right? Right. Right. Right. The questions that I have. Christine, I need to hear your story that you teased a little bit at the top of of the episode. I'm so glad you asked because it's something I've never talked about and it's not because it wasn't something I wanted to talk about. It just was never relevant. And then I heard

ghost cars and ghost passengers and I went, oh, okay. You're like, I've got a story for you. Finally, I get somebody to tell. It's not even like super interesting. It's really short story, but I was driving to school one day in high school and I like there, I just suddenly was pulling up to this light. I drove this path every day through Cincinnati. and I pulled up to this light, and there was this police car to the right. And for some reason, I just felt this dread, like, don't pull up all the way to the window. Like, just, I mean, you know, and it was a police car, but I was also 15. So what did I know?

Yeah. I'm like, so I'm like, don't look. Right. My registration sticker might be expired. I don't know. But it wasn't really that. It was just I had this, like, weird, ominous, like, chilling feeling. and as we started as a light turned green I was like waiting for him to go and he wouldn't go and I was like okay so I was like well I have to go so I start driving and as I'm trying to drive fast I of course look over and I can see his face is just like trained on me and like he's already waiting for me to drive by and he has this huge smile in his face but he has no nose oh like it's just skin

I know. Are you, what? His nose is like not there. His eyes are like too far apart. There's like this giant smile. And he looks right at me and my whole, I mean, I still remember to this day, I'm like sweating. My whole like stomach bottom down and I was like petrified. I mean, petrified.

Like that's not a human. My brain went, I knew it. Like I knew I wasn't supposed to look in that car. And, oh my God. I drove past and I was like, oh, I should look at the license, of course. And then I'm like kind of looking at her. And of course he's gone. The car's gone. I don't know. I mean, he might have turned away. I don't know. But, like, I was thankful he was gone. So I was like, don't follow me, please.

Yeah. Ten years of friendship. Not once. You decided not to tell M. Excuse me? Yeah. Well, you know, your friend from Surrey and I have been waiting to tell you. Oh, too-shay. I think I was just in a place where I was 15 and I told my mom and she's like, okay, like, he probably just like looked at you funny and like. Did your mom brush it off? Yes, completely. And so I just kind of brushed it aside and I thought like maybe I exaggerated it in my mind. I don't know. But there was something about where there was no, no.

I mean, it was like, okay. And when I was a kid, I had this horrible nightmare that I was in my mom's bed and she turned around and she had no face. Like it was just all skin over her. What's going on? Okay. Em is freaking out over here. M's like, I just woke up. Why are you doing this?

It's always reminded me of that event because it had a very similar like, you know, a safe person like a parent. And it just was one of those moments where I went like, hmm, that's bad and I don't want to think about it anymore. So that was my ghost car experience or alien. I don't know what the heck it was. Remember at the top of this when you were like, it's not even like that big of a story? Well, it doesn't feel like it in my head. It sounds very big right now.

It sounds when I say it out loud. Oh my goodness. Jeez. Oh, my goodness. Well, I don't even know how to top that story, but I do have another one that I found. Okay, it's not about a ghostly car, but an entire ghost train. Oh. It's around 2.30 a.m. on August 27th, 1891.

That morning, a seven-car train leaves the station in Statesville, North Carolina, with more than 50 people on board. It's pitch dark out, so the train's engineer is a guy named William West, and he can barely see the track in front of him. But just five minutes after leaving the station at 2.35 a.m., he feels this jolt. Then he hears this horrible screech like steel is being ripped into. The entire train leaps off the tracks just as it's crossing over the Bostian Bridge. All six cars and the engine fall 60 feet before hitting the creek below. Yeah, and 22 people died that night. But miraculously, nearly three dozen people survived.

And those who were able to walk three miles back to town to get help. Oh, my God. I mean, that is devastating. Oh, my gosh. But there's more. So the Boston crash became one of North Carolina's most infamous train wrecks, as you can imagine. But it didn't become legendary until the year 1941. And here's why. Fifty years to the day on the anniversary of the tragedy of that train wreck, two travelers

named Pat and Larry Hayes are driving with their kids to a vacation somewhere in the mountains. It's right after midnight and their kids are fast asleep in the back seat. That's the first mistake. All of that is the first mistake. Everything good can come of this. There on Buffalo Shoals Road, which runs parallel to the railway line when suddenly, Larry hears a big pop, and he feels the car shake. It's a flat tire. So he pulls over to the side of the road where there's a clear view of the Boston Bridge.

Careful not to wake the kids, of course. Larry hurries off on foot back to Statesville to get some help, since we're assuming he doesn't have a spare tire. Sure. And meanwhile, Pat waits patiently with the kids back in the car. You know, she glances up occasionally at the darkened bridge several hundred feet away. And around 2.35 a.m., she sees a train speeding across the bridge. Oh, my God. Yeah, at first, of course, she thinks nothing of it.

I mean, there are train tracks right there, right? Until she hears a terrible screeching sound and sees the train launch itself over the track. Then she hears the agonizing screams of the victims. My God. Pat leaps out of the car to get a better look and she sees the crash locomotive, the actual train, in the creek below her. Oh, my God. Just as she's about to freak out, a car pulls up and her husband, Larry, jumps out, you know, with someone to help him fix the tire. Pat grabs Larry and just points to the creek.

She doesn't even say anything. but now the train is gone it's the gaslighting i mean come on total gas so toxic someone else has to confirm this the kids are asleep like i know the kids are asleep it's just her she's the only one you don't even have the kids to fall back on here oh yeah like we need the two witnesses right well there's no wreckage there's no screams and just the sound of crickets and the peaceful trickle of the Creek. Pat cannot explain what she's just seen. And since she's not from the area, she's never even heard of the Boston train crash and neither has Larry. It isn't until later when she speaks to someone at a local train station that she learns about the actual tragedy. Now, discuss. Imagine that moment

where they're like, and it's the 50-year anniversary and she's like, well, well, well. I have a therapist name Jordan and Jordan would immediately be getting a phone call and I would make this whole event my entire personality if I would I mean I would at least be up until three in the morning Googling like has anyone else experienced this like I would be deranged for at least 24 hours I would yeah well I went on a deep dive into this story and as a matter of fact when that happens you know when her husband and the guy show up and they don't there's nothing there she faints she passes out. Like in trauma, her body just breaks down. Shut down. Sure. You know, which rightfully so, I think I would be the same. Like, oh. Also, I feel like your brain in these scenarios, like,

especially when you see something paranormal or something, just even plain old traumatic, like, it tries to write a narrative that makes sense. And I feel like in this case, it was sort of like, just unplug me, plug me back in. Like, I'm just going to faint and, like, start over, you know, but it's like, I'm sure if we, like, do a quick reset. But, like, I would, just feel so bit resentful that like I swear I saw this and I'm deeply traumatized I heard people screaming in agony and now everyone's like there's nothing there yeah I mean I would be the same as you am like I would this would stay with me for the rest of my life right everyone would know yeah for sure I mean also like can you imagine what year was this did they have phones then did they

1941 yeah oh no well because my my next thought was like imagine knowing that you've got these kids in the car so you can't leave them but like moral thinking of like Do I run and save people and leave my kids behind? Do I stay with my kids and just watch these people die and I could save? I mean, it would be such a, I would never recover. Yeah. I think we'd all faint probably too. Yeah, it would be like just fade to black.

Just to check out of the situation. Just become unconscious. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, after that, the Boston Bridge becomes the stuff obviously of ghostly legends. Some people say that each year on August 27th at 2.35 a.m., you can catch a glimpse of the train plunging to its demise. Although some people took that story a little too seriously, and they paid a deadly price. Listen to this. In 2010, on the 119th anniversary of the crash, a 29-year-old paranormal investigator named Charles Kaiser and two of his colleagues decided to investigate the Phantom Train.

They walked onto the bridge on the evening of August 26 and waited for the signs of the apparition. And at some point during the night, they finally heard it, the roar of the locomotive. The ghost hunters peered anxiously down the tracks. But unfortunately, the train they saw wasn't a specter. Oh, it was a real train? It was a real train. Kaiser pushed one of his friends out of the way, but he wasn't fast enough to dodge the train himself.

And he was struck and killed instantly. Oh, my God. Oh, my Lord. I mean, that is a horrific way to go. Did you guys ever heard this story? I don't know this story. Do you end? No, no.

No. Oh, my gosh. I feel like with paranormal investigating, you think like, oh, it's like a harmless hobby. And then, you know, even going into, like, abandoned buildings. And you think like, ooh, spoo. spooky, but it's like, they're actually like real life dangerous too. I mean,

tell them, Christine, about Bobby Mackees. Yeah, but right, right. We went to Bobby Mackey's and while we were there, well, on our way there, the person we were going to do, we were doing an overnight ghost hunt and we got a call from our contact. He said, actually, can you guys just hold off for like another 30 minutes? The police

are here because someone broke in and we can't find them. And we were like, hey, I don't think so. And we finally got there and they're like, well, we couldn't find him anywhere. So anyway, have a good Lockdown? Of course. Yeah, we were like, for the rest of the night, we'd be like, oh, my God, a ghost.

And then we were like, or worse, could it be the intruder? Like, which is worse? You know? I mean, anyway, so there are, I guess, real dangers. And trains are one of those things I feel like that get, it's like underrated how dangerous these things are, especially, like, if you're not used to being around train tracks. Yeah, that's just horrible. Yeah, I feel like I would have at least checked before ghost hunting if it was an active railway. I feel like.

Right. Yeah. I'm surprised, like, no one thought, oh, other trains come. here too besides the ghost one you know right yeah um yeah yeah oh my gosh yeah when i started ghost sending back in 2011 or 2012 so when you were 10 okay i was in college i was in college and um i but thank you so much my skin appreciates that thank you i've been ghosting since then in one of my first times that i was ghost setting i was also giving a tour at the same location and usually the town knew what we were doing and they were supposed to but i guess the park

Ranger on site wasn't aware of what was going on and called the police and ended up detaining me in front of my entire tour group. It was so embarrassing. Embarrassing or just like super cool? In hindsight, since nothing happened, super cool. But in the moment, I was like, why am I in a cop car right now? I was like for ghost hunting. And we have every right to be here. Oh, wow. Yeah, not only can it be dangerous, you might just run into like some dumb people. So look out, you know. He might get detained, I don't know. At least your cop had a face. Yeah.

Actually, I could have a nose. Perhaps he did not. I'm not sure. He had his nose and eyes. Yeah, that's a good start. That's a good start. I do have a question for you, though. I'm circling back to ghost hunting since 2011.

So messing with the supernatural, obviously, like, that can be a scary thing. Like, it can be deadly at times. Were you always drawn to it? Do you do any, like, ritual before to ask for protection? Are you just like all the way in? I've been into it. I've wanted to be a ghost owner since I was seven when I saw my first ghost, which was my grandpa.

As for rituals, I don't know. I always kind of had some like blind confidence that I'd be fine because my stepmom is a second generation witch. She's been practicing her full life. And so in my mind, if something ever happened, I would just call her and it would just get handled. I don't know how true or safe that is. Hey, I need her phone number two.

She's got me. I like, I'm like, I have a lot of people on your wrong. roster, you're Rolodex. I need to be calm. Jordan. Just call my step grandparents who taught her. Yeah.

So it's very nice to have her on call if I need something. But usually this is probably very irresponsible if you're talking to someone who practices much more than I do. But my only ritual, which Christine likes to poke fun at sometimes, is that as I'm leaving any haunted place, I just say goodbye, like a bajillion time. I just go, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. You can't come home. Please don't follow me.

Yeah, I just kind of, I'm just so clear and, like, do not follow me home. And so far it has worked, knock on everything. Yeah, seriously. Manifestation, my friend. Yeah, yeah. You just set a boundary, you know? Yeah, you know. Right, right.

You set your own clear boundary. Yeah. Well, there is no question that hunting the supernatural comes with risks. The reason I asked you that question, M, is because the way Yvette and I were raised in Hawaii, like, we were always taught 100% to respect the supernatural, especially by our mom. So we always ask for protection. Yeah. You know, like, yeah, or do a point in prayer or something, something. Christina and I, we've only ever been, like, super respectful. And we're just like, I'm not about that. And especially if I don't want you to follow me home, why would I give you a reason? So, you know. Yeah, let's all be cool and chill, you know? Like, why would I scream at you and punch the wall of your own house? Yeah, just because you're dead. That feels like unfair. But we couldn't agree with you more. Yeah, for us, it's like you just, you don't play around with stuff like that.

You know, you do it in the most respectful way possible. Right. 100%. Same with us, yeah. And we have to say, too, sometimes it's hard to exactly say what's doing the haunting, what type of entity you are coming across. Are we the one searching for answers or is the supernatural searching for us? All right, well, we're joined today by M. Schultz and Christine Schiefer from And That's Why We Drink.

And so far, you have heard a couple of really cool stories about phantom vehicles that seem to replay their final moments. But I want to branch out from there because it's not just the cars and the trains that appear to be haunted or cursed. it seems like it's the people who died in them, right? These apparitions that keep showing up long after the events have passed. Right. Meaning, maybe it's more about the passengers and their tragic deaths, right? That this keeps occurring. I mean, that makes sense, especially with the, like, very dramatic ones, you know,

that are actually historically, like, accurate. I feel like that's a good evidence. Well, I have one that. I believe is historically accurate. So this particular story comes from Japan. But before we get there, I think it's important to have a little bit of cultural context for this one. So I only speak a little Japanese, but I will say, even though we only speak a little bit, my sister and I understand the Japanese culture. It's very prevalent in Hawaii.

I'm way into this one. So in Japan, the oldest indigenous religion is called Shinto, which translates in English to the way of the gods. Now, there's a belief in Shintoism that when you die, your soul travels to the underworld, which is a mythical place called Yomi no Kuni. However, it's said that some people get stuck on their way there and forever remain trapped. on our earthly plane. So those are usually people who have died violently, unnaturally, or left unresolved business behind on earth. Souls that either can't move on or won't.

When that happens, they become a very specific kind of Japanese spirit called a Yude. These angry spirits can still interact with our world and often take revenge upon the living. Oh, boy. Yeah. They can cause accidents, disease, madness, even death. So let's just say it's bad luck to meet one. Yeah, I'll say.

Typically, they like to haunt cemeteries or places that they died. Okay. But sometimes they get lost, like literally lost. In fact, a lot of these strange travelers were seen after the Tohoku earthquake in 2011, one of the worst natural disasters in Japanese history. Oh, boy. Lost spirits. Oh, boy. Okay. That's tragic, many, many of them. Scary ancestors all at once. Yeah. And we actually had family members that lived in Japan during this time. So we were, yeah, watching the news and, you know, calling relatives nonstop. It was a 9.0 magnitude quake. I can't even, I can't even process that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it

happened on March 11th at 2.46 p.m. It created a massive 33-foot tsunami, which slammed into the eastern shore of Japan, affecting hundreds of miles of coastline. And in some places, the tidal wave reached six miles inland. I mean, that is crazy. That's, again, can't comprehend. It killed almost 20,000 people destroyed thousands of homes and triggered a partial meltdown at the Fukushima nuclear power plant. So when I say disaster, that is a understatement. And in the aftermath of this horrible, horrible tragedy, people struggle to rebuild. You've got to think about it. Many people lost their homes. They lost their jobs. And most importantly, they lost their loved ones. The thing is, Some of those family members were said to make a shocking reappearance time and time again.

Journalist Richard Lloyd Perry documented some of these reappearances in his book called Ghost of the Tsunami. Many of these stories were reported to him by a priest named Reverend Kaneda. Kaneda lived and worked at a Zen Buddhist temple in Kuriata, and that is in the northeastern part of the country. He and a group of priests traveled the coast after the tsunami, you know, to comfort survivors. So as people described their terror and their grief, they also reported supernatural run-ins with the souls of those lost in the waves. And he found an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence. Oh, boy. For example, a cab driver in Sendai, a city north of Fukushima, said he picked up a man one

one day, not long after the tsunami. The man gave the taxi driver an address near the coast. But about halfway through the drive, the cabby glanced at his rearview mirror and noticed the passenger, he gone. Really? He was gone. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

He had literally vanished mid-drive, even though they'd never stopped. So, of course, the cab driver was morbidly curious, so he kept going to the address. that the man originally gave him. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Guess where he pulled up? Where? He pulled up to a house that was completely leveled by the tsunami and left in ruins. Oh, my God. He just wanted to go home. Oh, my God.

He just wanted to go home. Yes. Five years after the disaster, a 22-year-old sociology student named Yucca Kudo heard rumors about these phantom passengers and decided to make it the subject of her senior thesis project. Yuka went out on the streets to interview about a hundred taxi drivers or so. She went all over Ishinomaki, a coastal city about five hours north of Tokyo. Every time she asked the same question, did you have any unusual experiences after the tsunami? Out of the hundred taxicab drivers, seven of them had supernatural stories to share. One driver in his 50s, seven a woman got into his car near the train station and asked to be taken to an area he absolutely knew

was decimated by the flood when he told her that she asked in a trembling voice quote am i dead oh my god turned around to get a better look at her but the woman had simply vanished Oh my God I know I wish you all could see M right now All of our listeners I know I know It's a delightful vision

Eyes closed Hand above their head Like what is happening right now Like that lady At the roadside Oh my God That's I was And also even if she was alive

And asked that question I mean with enough tragedy going on I would imagine there's some like Freak out There's no right word for this Like a mob mob mentality of like where do I stand what do I like I could see people like your whole life's been shattered right yeah yeah yeah I just I I my my hope for that is like hopefully

that when she had that realization like am I dead that it maybe she was able to oh you know what I mean like she was like great and it like almost brought her to I mean that's my hope I don't know yeah great right that's how I ever the optimist I am I know that so much yeah the other six drivers had similar stories about picking up clients who disappeared mid-rout. It seemed like these ghosts, you know, Christine, like you were saying, they were trying to find their way home, you know, even though their home didn't exist anymore and maybe find peace and move on, right? Yeah.

Yeah. You know, that's really interesting because I feel like so many different cultures have a similar understanding of tragic incidents resulting in ghosts. I mean, you even go to like M's part of the M's hometown area, like, that colonial, I don't know, what's over there? Where are you from? Oh, I'm from Virginia. Just like, you know, you got a battlefield.

You got all the haunted places that I'm so much. You got a lot of soldiers. You got a lot of energy. Yeah. Like trauma and death and like despair. And it's like I can, it's fascinating that like different cultures have developed like they're, you know, different ways of speaking basically about the same concept. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, we go back to that thing again, right? And it's that, it's that residual energy that keeps showing up after. certain traumas, right? Because it's like it replays. It's replays. Yeah. It's on a loop.

In some ways, I want to like be grateful that at least they don't realize that they pass. So maybe they didn't have to suffer on their way out. But then the other part is like, oh, well, now they're suck here because they don't know that if they're alive or not. So. Yeah. Kind of a catch 22.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, another version of these spectral passengers that I've heard about even beyond Japan is the ghostly hitchhiker. I have, I have these, I get really nervous when I talk about

hitchhikers because I am not the one to ever hitchhike or even pick up a hitchhiker. I'm just saying, unless it's Madame Pele in Hawaii, you have to pick her up. Oh, I've heard that story. Thank you for telling me. You're a welcome, man. We got you. We got you. Okay. So I know of one story, though I'm not sure when it's from. It's about a man who was driving along Arkansas's rural highway 365. He reportedly picked up a young woman and a light-colored dress one night. She was standing on the side of the road in the pouring rain. She gave him her home address and he drove her there. But when he arrived, the young woman had vanished from his back seat. And oddly enough, the driver's coat was missing too. What? Yeah. So he decided to go knock on the door to the house anyway.

And an elderly woman answered, when he shared what happened, she told him the girl sounded a lot like her daughter. Ooh. Yeah, only she had died in a car accident many years earlier. She said there were others before him who claimed to have given her a ride with the same result. So the driver went to visit the girl's grave after that. And that's when he found his missing jacket. draped over her tombstone. You've got to be kidding me.

My God. So it sounds like it's similar to what the taxi drivers experienced in Japan, right? A lost soul just trying to get back to their loved ones, trying to get back home. That's so sad. And then like to think with the jacket, like my, at least in my mind, it's like the driver said, oh, you're freezing. You're all wet. Like, here's my coat. Right.

You know, at least it says in my head, like she took the coat because she's out in the rain and then so it's like a thank you like puts it back i don't know it's just so sweet and tragic yeah and at the same time it's like i'm really here it's proof right yes yeah right too yeah yeah wow those pull my mind that always blows my mind when there's um a true interaction where like it's one thing to see a ghost but neither of you interact but when there's actual conversation it's like how we're both of you intelligently having this experience and And what way are you perceiving this ghost? Right.

Are you, do you know you're dead or do you think we're just two people talking amongst each other? Right. Right. It's mind-boggling. Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. It's never ending.

I was telling Rasha, like, who are the real ghost and who are the aliens sometimes? Like, are we the aliens? Are we the ghost? Or, and they are the real people? Oh. Which is. Right? Talk about above my pay grade.

Right. I don't know, Eva. I think that's another quantum physics. Exactly. Who are the real ghosts? Oh, God, I'm not going to sleep tonight. I'm just saying. I know.

Okay, so let's just say home isn't always the destination. Just take this story out of India. This is in 2007, two friends named Sanju and Anad were traveling from Mumbai to a seaside resort called Murud. Around 11.30 p.m. were nearing their destination, but they were the only car on the road, which is why they pulled over to help two strangers who look stranded, and it just so happened to be a man and a woman. The exhausted couple said their names were Ravi and Sunita, and they were newlyweds on their honeymoon, and they had had, I guess, a rough evening. They said they had rented a tandem bike for the day,

but it had gotten a flat tire. Their resort was five miles away, and they didn't want to walk. in the dark, which, hello, I can't blame them either. I don't want a bike in the dark, let alone. When it's a tandem bike, both your bikes are broken. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're also about to, like, get divorced on your honeymoon if you're on a tandem bike, lost in me. Be like, please, that's not going to be, that's not going to end well.

Bad memory. I've never been with my wife on a tandem bike. It's don't do it. I mean, I haven't either. I just can assume it's probably, my parents did one time in their divorce, so I feel like that's all my goodness for all of us. Christine. I don't think.

that's what did it, to be clear, but I just, it can't be. That's hysterical. Just saying, right? Just saying. Amen. Okay. Well, anyhow, nothing seemed unusual. There was even a broken tandem bike laying by the side of the robe, right?

So Sanji told them, just hop in, right? Okay. And on the way, they chatted a bit, and Sanju thought the couple had, you know, a pretty good sense of humor. And they had bonded over the fact that Ravi and Sunita were also from Mumbai. And after a few minutes, the conversation died down. But Sanju could still hear them whispering to each other in the back seat. And he didn't remember exactly when, but at some point, he checked his rearview mirror and the couple had vanished. Both of them?

They're gone. They're gone. But get this. He and Anad could still hear them whispering. No. Yes. Oh, gosh. What the heck.

So you can imagine, right, Sanju slammed on the brakes and the two men leapt out of their terrified, like rightfully so, because I would be doing the same thing. Yeah. Get me the hell out of here. And as they started running, they heard laughter and a scream coming from the car. They kept running until they actually reached a police station. And there, the cops on duty told them that Ravi and Sunita were honeymooners who had hitched hike a ride with the wrong person many, many years ago and had been found brutally murdered. This is why I don't hitchhike.

I mean, yeah. This is exactly why. And since then, other people reportedly encountered the couple on the road as well. who may have been taking that same doomed ride over and over for eternity. Oh, my God. That's so tragic. Can you imagine? I mean, to be having to relive this over and over and over, and then the whispering,

and you wonder, like, is that what happened in the car when they were... Did they realize that they made a mistake and they're whispering about... That's so dark. I know that's, like, messed up, but I can't imagine them whispering. spring about anything happy i think they were like no right because of the circumstances but yeah that's oh man so do not hitchhike y'all yeah please just don't you never uh you never hear about vanishing ghosts where there's like two of them it's like a that's a good right normally it's true yeah i guess they're together i was gonna say i mean i hope they i hope that means like

they have a better chance of maybe finding their way out of that yeah loop or what have you yeah I know, and it sounds like, I mean, with all the laughing, right, and screaming that was going on. I'm like, well, maybe now they're just having fun with it because they know they're not going anywhere else. Pranking people now. Right. Maybe. They're like, we'll do the old tandem bike routine, you know. And like, go, babe, let's go.

One can only hope, man. I mean, make it a little lighter. Yeah. We try. We try. We try so hard. So I grew up in Virginia and we had a haunted bridge. that it was

It was called the Bunny Man Bridge And the Bunny Man is our cryptid Oh you have a cryptid in Virginia How did we not know that? He's under the radar Actually I covered I think I did a two-parter on him On our show

Okay then I will go back and listen In depth on the Bunny Man Hey if you need a rabbit hole Get it? Stop it Yvette loves rabbit holes And so do our listeners Bada boom

well so the county over for me is uh it's fairfax county and that's where the bunnyman bridge is and the story that i always grew up with was that in the 70s there was this man who was being transferred from one mental health hospital to another um at the time they did not say mental health hospital they were much more um nasty not bc yes yeah he was like some horrible man and you know whatever um anyway during the trans between the facilities, the bus crashed. And so the door accidentally got open and all of the patients that were being transferred to a different facility escaped. And only one of them was never captured. I don't know, brought back. Right, right, right.

So anyway, he went missing and the story was always that he just lived in the woods underneath the bridge. And he survived all the wildlife in the area to be able to eat. And during the winter, he was known, I guess that area was high in rabbits. And so the thought is that he would eat the bunnies

and he would use their fur to stay warm. And so eventually he had killed so many rabbits for survival and stitched them all together to make a fur suit, which essentially was a bunny suit. And a lot of people claimed that a human-sized bunny was walking around in the woods under the bridge. Growing up in the area, the big dare amongst teenagers, First of all, it was, oh, have you driven under the Bunnyman Bridge?

But really, it was, have you driven under it at exactly midnight on Halloween? Oh, stop. Because if that happened, I never did. But the lore is that if you drove under the bridge at exactly midnight, if you looked out the rearview window, you would see the bunny man standing there and shadows of bunnies hanging over the overpass. Oh. Dead bunnies. Did you ever have anyone M who claimed to have seen that in your, like? Yeah, but it was always some

They're like Guy at the party Right, okay So it's not like a trusted source Trying to show off I had one friend who said That he partied with the bunny man And I'm like, okay, I don't believe it

I mean maybe he did in Yeah, maybe I don't know Maybe His head So no I have been to the bridge It is a shockingly You already think it's probably

You know Not all that interesting of a bridge It's actually an even less interesting bridge So it's one more boring than the average bridge. I had to try an hour to see this bridge and I was like, this is it. Yeah, forgive it.

Nothing creepy about it. Not even a little bit. Not even a little bit. And at the end of the bridge is a dead end. So then you have to awkwardly like back up. Back up and through. Okay, but to be fair, that does make it a little creepy because it's like at midnight if you're like, if one of your friends like, what's that over there and then you

have to like try and back up out of it? Like that has its own fear. But that's how I know the bunny man isn't real because wouldn't the story be once you drive through it, he's waiting for you at the dead end and then you can't. Right, not just looking at you. I think what he is. You get to the dead end. Let's rewrite this.

You get to the dead end. We're workshopping it. And then you're like, okay, nothing here. And you go to reverse and he's standing behind. Let's workshop this. I'm obsessed with both of you. Revision is history. Yeah.

You know what? It's already probably a fake story. We can judge it up. Yeah. You can do what you want. We like to jish. Yeah. Oh my goodness.

I mean, I'll go there with you. I'm at midnight if you want. I would go at midnight just to say that I did. it but I will tell you it's no when I was 16 I was actually too scared to go and now now that I well because you knew ghost really existed right that's right because you knew the supernatural was true I you're right that's why I didn't do it now that's why if he was in the 70s he might still actually be alive so right that's yeah I guess he was always assumed to be the ghost of the bunny man but really it sounds more like a true crime story I just sold now that I'm thinking about you know

urban legends yeah I think it's a it's a little bit of both combined. Yeah. Some of the best stories are. Wow. Oh my goodness. Well, maybe there is something about certain locations that keeps these souls trapped in one place like we've been talking about. Unable to escape no matter how hard they actually try. All righty. We are back with M. Schultz and Christine. Chiefer from, and that's why we drink. I don't, I love saying that so much. She's upset. I know it's catchy, huh? It is catchy. It really is. Well done you. Okay, we have been covering stories about phantom vehicles, passengers, and hitchikers from all around the world. But maybe it's not

the passengers or the drivers we should be focusing on. Maybe there's something about certain locations that keep souls trapped in one place, doomed to repeat their journeys time and time again, right? And we can't explore this theory without talking about one of the creepiest roads in America, Clinton Road, and West Milford, New Jersey. Have you guys heard of this place? I have. I have as well, but I don't know much about it. I've heard of it, but M probably knows much more than I do. Well, actually, I am going to New Jersey soon, so I know I might just add this on my list

of places to visit. I've never been before to this area, so I'll tack it on. But the only thing I've heard about is just like some of the weird encounters that people have experienced. I know there's like a truck that follows people too closely and like flashes their lights and then the lights, kind of the truck vanishes, even though it's never turned away. It's never turned left or right. There's a wolf with red eyes. There's park rangers that will help you out when you're lost, and then you realize that they were wearing uniforms from like the 30s. Oh, my goodness. And then there's a haunted Cadillac Camaro. It starts with a hard sea, but there's a car that, I guess, someone crashed in the 70s and died, and that car still seemed driving up and down the road. Oh, that's a lot. That's a whole lot. We have even more to add to that. I was going to say, I think you're about to tell us more.

Yeah. Yeah, we have even more. I'm like everything you told us, like, I guess we could be talking. We should have done just a whole episode on the legend. I told me. We totally could. Oh, wow. Okay. So for those of you who don't know, this winding 10 mile stretch road has been labeled one of the most haunted roads in the entire United States. And along with all those stories that Em has shared with us, some say that even the indigenous Americans, and early settlers believed the land itself was cursed. Though we haven't been able to find any actual evidence of that or exactly why they thought that. But in 1905, an author and historian named Joseph Crane had a theory. He claimed the woods near the road were infested with witches. Infested, excuse me. I said, Mom, wait a minute.

I know, we knew it. Festation is a little strong, but, Okay. So Joseph said the witches gathered nightly to hold ritual dances where they morphed into these terrifying forms. He didn't say specifically what those forms were, only that they scared the daylights out of any people or animals who encountered them. Because they were so beautiful. Of course. Yes. Of course. They were scared by their beauty. Yeah. So over the years, urban legends arose about different spots along Clinton Road, like what you've been sharing them. And one of the most famous is a bridge that crosses a tight corner called Dead Man's Curve.

So there are a few versions of how this particular bridge became haunted. One is that a young boy drowned in the creek below. Another is that this boy's friends challenged him to stand on the bridge as some kind of prank and ended up leaving him there for hours. And when they came back, they saw that he was dead. Whoa. People also say, to this day, if you toss a coin into the water, he'll toss it back. Oh, yeah.

Now that's cool. Oh, yeah, right? Hell no. That is, I would absolutely try to do that when I'm 13. That's one that I'll do, yeah. I would too. And one witness said that she tossed a quarter in and exactly a minute later heard a second splash as if someone had dropped another coin. And she was there by herself.

And when she looked into the creek, she saw the refraud. the reflection of a boy. No. Staring back at her in the water. Bye. See you. See you. I'm 13, I would do it.

And then the second that I see him, I go, why did I do this? Right. I'm going to regret this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is, so you kind of tapped into this earlier, M. The bridge isn't the only haunted spot.

People have claimed that the whole 10-mile stretch of Clinton Road is full of weird supernatural energy. And plenty of eyewitnesses say they were driving there at night and noticed the headlights from a black pickup truck trailing close behind. Okay. And then all of a sudden the lights just disappeared, even though there was no intersection or pull off in sight. And there are also tales of the weather suddenly changing, like snow falling in the middle of summer, but only on the road. itself. Get out.

That's wild. Like, that would freak me out. Yeah. That would be cool, though, to be in that. It would be super cool and no one would ever believe me. Even if I had... It'd be like, that's how I. That's when you do live.

Yeah, fair enough. That is when you capture it. Right. Okay, so there's also whispers about UFOs, satanic rituals, and the secret KKK meetings. at a burnt-out castle near the road, which I would definitely steer clear of. Okay. I'm going to say,

I'm definitely checking that out. And I was like, Oh, hell. What the heck? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, thank you. Okay, the three-story stone building was built in 1907 by a guy named Richard Cross and was used as his country estate.

It featured 365 acres of farmland, woods, and a pond. However, Cross died in 1917, and the castle was sold to the city of Newark two years later. The uninhabited property began to deteriorate and was stripped bare of anything that could be sold. And eventually, of course, it became a hangout for kids looking just to party in secret. I mean, an old castle, yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, right? Yeah, I would. Yeah.

Yeah. And then in 1988, the city of Newark, Newark, demolished what was left because it was considered a safety hazard. And not long after that, one group of friends decided to investigate the castle ruins for fun. They lit a bonfire and cracked open a few beers, as you would. And half an hour later, they heard ominous chanting coming from somewhere nearby and the rattle of chains. Oh, what? It was then that one of them suddenly had a seizure.

Allegedly, she became so incredibly heavy that none of her friends could actually lift her or even move her. Oh. As soon as the chanting stopped, that is when she supposedly regained consciousness. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, chanting feels not good to me. Even if nothing paranormal was happening, talk about the worst time ever to have a seizure. No, I feel so bad for that person.

Yeah. Well, let's jump into another story. This time, it's on a road in southern Scotland called the A75 that passes through a town called Dumfries. The area is said to be the most haunted highway in the entire country of Scotland. Apparently, there are a lot of paranormal sightings associated with this particular four-mile stretch. or road. But there's one story I have to share with you. It's about a pair of truck driving brothers named Derek and Norman Ferguson. Back in 1962, they were driving late at night when a chicken flew straight at their windshield, only to disappear a split second before any impact

happened. That's a lot. Been doing us a long time. That's a first. That's a first. And as if that wasn't terrifying enough, like they thought they were going to kill this chicken. As they kept driving, they encountered more spectral creatures in the road. We're talking huge wild cats, dogs, and goats. Yeah, and each time their truck got close to one of the animals, it completely vanished. Oh my gosh. The adrenaline spikes every time you think you're going to hit a dog. I know, I know. You're like, what is happening right now? After a few of these near misses, the brothers pulled over to simply catch their breath. And that's when their entire vehicle got incredibly cold inside as if they had just walked into a freezer. Then the truck itself shook wildly like

something outside was trying to tip them over. One of them got up the courage to leave the truck to see what it was. But as soon as he stepped out, the shaking stopped. So of course, they cranked that engine back up and sped off. But wait, there's more. Wait for it. A little further down the road, they spotted an elderly couple with long white hair. And as they passed them, these old people chased after the truck, but then disappeared just like the animals did.

What is going on? Others in the area have reported seeing that exact same couple. One woman was driving down that same stretch of road when an elderly man left. in front of her car. She slammed on the brakes, but she knew she couldn't slow down in time, except just before impact, the old man disappeared. A man named Bob Sturgeon owned a roadside snack van off the A-75 for years and years, and he had heard plenty of stories about unusual encounters almost weekly. Oh my God. Yeah, he said these tales mostly came from long-distance truck drivers who had nothing to gain by telling him these stories, right? Yeah, fair enough.

And some of them were so traumatized by what they saw. And one of his regular customers was so traumatized and so shaken up after a particular encounter. That particular man gave up truck driving. Oh, we're good. Oh, so you left his whole career path. He's like, actually, that's enough. That's enough for me. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Jeez. I mean, that would freak me out, Rosh. Do you remember we were taking a drive to L.A. one time, and all of a sudden, all of these bugs, like, I swear to God, hundreds of thousands of bugs just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, hitting the windshield. And we were just freaking the, yeah, it was not okay. And they didn't disappear, I imagine, upon impact. They just hit your... No, they just kept, no, they just kept coming. And it was like blacking out our windshield. Yeah. It was freaking. It was. So here's my, my humble opinion. My humble opinion is that the couple, all the animals, I think that something happened to them there, and that was their last resting place.

And they're just making themselves known. That's nicer than them being just like murderous animals. Right. Yeah, I don't want to believe in murderous animals. I mean, I just got a brand new kitchen and I think he might be because I'm not a cat person, but that's a one other story. Yeah. I mean, I can probably confirm that for you as a cat owner. But, I mean, a little demon in a best way, like in a cat way, because they're all, they're all.

like a little bit demonic, but like we love them for that, you know. Okay, exactly. Hopefully I'm a part of it. To love him. Yeah, yeah, you will. Okay, well, what is interesting about all of these stories is it's not just one person who saw something. Many claim to have seen the same or similar events repeated. Like if we go back to the Surrey Ghost Car with multiple callers reporting the crash,

or the case of the hitchhiking daughter who had been killed. and lured several drivers back to her parents' home after she died, or the train over the Boston Bridge. You almost get a sense of history repeating itself. Like I say this all the time. Is there a time loop that is repetitively on play at that exact certain time and moment, right? Okay. Which is why I want to bring up an ancient theory that was made popular against, by the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, and he spoke about a concept called Eternal Recurrence. Basically, the idea is that time repeats in an infinite loop, with exactly the same events occurring over and over again for eternity. Nietzsche used this concept as a thought experiment, a way to challenge people to live life in a way that they, you know, wouldn't regret.

And it was supposed to make you think about how you'd make different choices if you knew you'd have to live them again and again and again. But maybe, just maybe, he was on to something bigger. What if the universe does repeat itself? And all of these apparitions aren't actually the dead coming back to haunt us, but echoes of the world that came before. What do you all think about that? I think a lot of times that our ghosts are our future selves looking out for us. Oh, I like that. And so that's why when you get a gut feeling, it's because it's yourself being like,

get out of here. Like I know what's coming. Like your higher self, like kind of being like. Yeah. I'm also, I'm a big time travel nerd. And so in my mind, I'm like, however I can make that possible as home. Instead of it being, if it's on loop, that would mean that the events are in the past, but also in the future, which means you don't know what's,

yeah it's coming yes yes um so in my mind i i i can get with nietzsche on this for sure yeah well also like if you think about i mean just i not to say quantum physics again geez we got started taking oh my gosh quantum physics is above my bakery is above all our bakery let's be clear um but like the concept that you know time being you know not as tangible as we think or not You know, what it, Einstein said reality is an illusion, but a persistent one. Like the idea that times are all happening at once, but for our human brains to comprehend, we have to understand, like, past, present, future, like in a narrative sense. And sometimes we get glimpses into, you know, times that are almost like a glitch, I guess,

but like crossovers of these timelines. So I don't know. I mean, I think there's clearly something to all of that in the fact that, I don't know, so many people and now M signing on with Nietzsche and maybe there's something too. it. Well, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to actually prove whether eternal recurrence is real or if spectral phenomena is a blip in the space-time continuum. But I think there's some mysteries to life that we aren't meant to solve. And that's okay, because it's these things that give us hope. It's these mysteries that keep us going, these unsolvable puzzles that get us to ask

bigger philosophical questions about the meaning of life. And because of that, I'm happy to keep guessing, to keep on doing the deep diving and to keep learning. Because what kind of world are we living in if there are no more questions left for us to answer? The supernatural, I think that is what keeps all of us going, right? And that's why we drink. Freak and loosely, that is why we drink. Amen. I mean, mic drop. Well put. Yeah, what Roger said. Agreed. That was so much more poignant than I could have put it. But yes, I agree with you. The questions, I'm always like, I want an answer now. But I think deep down, I know that that's part of the fun. Yeah. Right, right. And time is so precious and it reveals itself always at the right place and moment. You're right.

We just have to be patient. Oh my gosh, I don't want this to end, you guys. I just want to thank you so much, M. Christine, for joining us here on So Supernatural. You guys are just so much fun, pure joy. I mean, it's been so great to get your take on all of this stuff, and especially, of course, for spooky season and Halloween. Thank you so much for having us. This has been an honor. We don't really often have the time to just like, just.

kind of do a roundtable discussion of like what on earth is going on with these ghosts, you know. So this was very, very enlightening and you two are so much fun. So it's an honor. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Yes, really. Mahalo, Nui Loa, to both of you. You are just a breath of fresh air, truly. Wow. Thank you. I love it. And if you want to hear more from them, check out their show, and that's why we drink on YouTube and wherever else you get your podcast. We'll see you back here. next week for another episode. This is So Supernatural, an audio chuck original produced by Crime House.

You can connect with us on Instagram at So Supernatural Pod and visit our website at so supernaturalpodcast.com. Join Rasha and me next Friday for an all-new episode. I think Chuck would approve.