So True with Caleb Hearon - Confronting a Union Organizer

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

Welcome! This week’s guest is the amazing Denise Brown! Denise and Caleb talk growing up in the 70s, age-gap friendships, the KC Tenants union, pronouns, and much more! Join our Substack for an exclusive post-episode chat with Denise and other bonus content! https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/ Follow KC Tenants!@kctenats Follow the show! @sooootruepod Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloudCheck out quince.com/SOTRUE Head to https://www.squarespace.com/SOTRUE to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code SOTRUE.There’s no replacement for human connection. Better with people. Better with Alma. Visit helloalma.com/SOTRUE to get started and schedule a free consultation today. About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1  » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum  » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum So True is a Headgum podcast, created and hosted by Caleb Hearon. The show is produced by Chance Nichols with Associate Producer Allie Kahan and Executive Producer Emma Foley. So True is engineered by Casey Donahue and engineered and edited by Nicole Lyons. Kaiti Moos is our VP of Content at Headgum. Thanks to Luke Rogers for our show art and Virginia Muller our social media manager.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a headgum podcast. Everyone come to the Uptown Theater, 38th and Broadway, for the he-haw with K. Extravaganza. Yeah. Denise. What's up, Caleb? What's up? I'm so excited to have you here.

And I'm excited to be here. Midtown Denise Brown. you are one of my favorite people that I have met in the last couple of years we met through Casey Tenants and Casey Tenants has done so many cool things in my life but allowing me to meet people like you has been the best part I'm so excited to be talking with you oh that is so sweet and I feel the same way oh thank you Denise tell everybody so this is my podcast so true tell the listeners a little bit about yourself where you From what do you up to?

What's your life like? Okay. My name is Denise Brown, and I am originally from Kansas City. I grew up here in Kansas City, Missouri. And I did leave the area for about 11 and a half years. Where'd you go? I lived out east. Out east.

Oh, yeah, New Jersey. You were in Jersey? Yes. I don't think I remembered this. Yes, I was in Jersey and hung out in New York. Probably could say I probably lived in New York too as much as I was in New York. Yeah, so when was this? When did you go to Jersey?

In the mid-70s. Mid-70s. And I stayed there to late 80s. So what took you from Kansas City to New York in the 70s? Job. I was working with AT&T. And at the time, my husband got a job. And since we both worked for AT&T, they do the traveling spouse thing.

So they found me a job there. So that's how I ended up in Jersey. Wow. So, okay, backing up a little bit. I'm very interested in that. you born and raised in Kansas City, and then when do you meet your husband? I met him, early 70s, going to Penn Valley. Going to Penn Valley?

And plus we both worked for AT&T. Yeah, and that's how you met? Mm-hmm. Nice. And then how did you guys meet? Is it a cute story? Okay. And I had a girlfriend named Ginger. And she says, now, you know why white girls go to college, right? I was like, no, to get husbands. I was like, really? I said, okay, then, we're going to enroll in Penn Valley next semester. Is Ginger a white girl? Uh-huh. Okay. And she said, huh? I said, yeah, I'm going to do what you do. I'm going to go get Larry. Okay. He's going to Penn Valley, so I'm going to go to Penn Valley. And so. So she comes to you and says

White girls go to college to get husbands And you go Absolutely We're going to be enrolling in Penn Valley Right Well we were having a conversation And I can't remember

Somehow the conversation Went towards The reason why At that point in time In the 70s Okay Why a lot of white girls Went to college

Their parents sent them to college To get husbands To get their MRS degree Right Yeah to get that ring And so I was like, really? She's like, yeah. And it works, right?

She said, well, yeah. I was like, okay. And because AT&T reimbursed us for classes, I said, but then let's go and enroll in Penn Valley. So she said, okay, so we both enrolled in Penn Valley. He said, so you come in here to get a husband? I said, I'm going to get Larry. And so you knew him already at that time? Mm-hmm.

Because all three of us were paid T&T. Okay, so you knew he was going to school there. Right, we knew he was going to. to Penn Valley. Yeah. So then that's the reason why I told her, oh, we're going to Penn Valley. We don't really go enroll in Penn Valley. And so go get Larry.

So how did you strike things up with Larry? How did it turn into dating? Well, we hung out. It was Ginger, him, and we had another friend, Elliot. And we all just hung out together. And then things just connected. Yeah. Yeah.

Things just happened. Things just happened. And so you guys started dating And then you both worked for AT&T and Kansas City For I'm assuming a number of years or why And at what point How long? Okay, so this is, I'm curious about this How long into dating were you guys like

Maybe we should get married? Maybe we should actually do this Oh, you want that story? Yeah, I do Unless you don't want to tell it to me No, okay, we did live together, right? Okay, what happened was we had dogs. He bought me a shepherd, and he had a shepherd. And they made it. So we had cousins in Dallas, and we used to go there a whole lot.

So we went to take our dogs to Dallas, one for each cousin. While we were down there, I said, why don't we just get married? And he said, okay. So you're just on a trip and you're like, hey, let's get married. I was like, we're living together and everything. why don't we just go ahead and get married? He said, okay. So we got married in Dallas when we went to deliver dogs. And I told him, I said, but we're not going to tell anybody that we're married. And he was like, okay. I said, so I'm going to stay brown, okay. He said, okay. So we go back,

like everything. So when he did get his job offer, my boss said, well, it would really be nice and easier for us to get you a job if you and Larry were married. I said, well, Larry and I are married. She said, I knew it, I knew it. I said, no, you didn't. She said, yeah. When you took them dogs down there, you got married, didn't you? That's like, yeah. Read you like a book, damn.

I was like, yeah. She said, okay, she said, okay, since that, I said, do you want me to bring the marriage license and I approve it to you and everything? She says, no, I'll take your word for it. Yeah. And so I said, but don't tell nobody. So she did. So he had left for his job, and I was still there.

They were still trying to find me a job. So finally they did find me a job. So the day that they made the announcement, that's when they added Riley to my name. Riley to your name. Because his name was Riley. So that's when I became Riley. Other than that, I was just Denise Brown. Yeah.

So then, okay, so you guys get secret married and then you tell the lady at AT&T so that you can get the job. And then you move out to Jersey. Now, where were we all living in Jersey? Somerset. Somerset, Jersey. And you said you were going into New York a lot. Oh, all the time. And what were you doing in, what were you doing?

This is the 70s in New York. Yeah. What were you all doing? Well, what was going on in the 70s in New York? I know you were giving them hell in there, Denise. Well, one thing I will say that I like about the East Coast and I like about New York is the culture. Okay, I mean, the partying is good. Everybody knows that.

But there are so many museums. There are so many different cultures. And I'll say starting in March all the way up to October, every weekend, there's a festival, some culture there in New York. Yeah. And I don't know how it is now, but it was always free. Yeah. And it was like a three-day event.

And I liked that, and I always went to those, and I love plays from my mother as a child taking me to plays here in Kansas City. So I got to go to Broadway plays and did all the cultural things out there. Yeah. Was it a, what was that move like for you? I mean, moving from being born and raised in Kansas City to go. going to New York at that time in your life? Because how old were you at that time?

I was in my early 20. Yeah, I mean. Just over 21. Was that crazy? Was that a big change? Jersey was the big change. Really? Because, okay, I grew up in the city.

Well, Somerset was, to me, was more like the rural area, which it was. And that was an adjustment for me. Because I can remember going home one day and it was a cow in the middle of the road. And I'm like, okay, what do I do with this cow in the middle of the row? I said, I guess I've got to wait for it to move, right? Yeah. And I'm honking my horn, that cow looking at me. And I'm like, okay, eventually it moved, you know.

Because the area where I was living wasn't highly developed. Yeah. And so you had a lot of farmers and people would land there. They just had put a development boom right in the middle of it. Was it for the AT&T employees, kind of? Was that the idea or like why was? No, I don't. the one thing when I first moved to Jersey in certain areas they didn't develop and then when they did develop they only developed for that area just like behind us they hunt it behind our property they didn't develop all of that property only developed wherever whoever had this one little development that they put and then because if you went down the road it wasn't nothing but country I mean there was a sheep farmer there was a goat farmer and you had all that going down the

the road but then you come into this little cul-de-sac little thing and that wasn't the development we went there so that was different yeah you know because I was used to street lights and here I am going down roads without streetlights and I had to get used to deer all the time what were you thinking about your life at that because I feel like early 20s is a time of like really it's a it's a time of possibility where you're like anything can happen I'm open I'm making choices I'm out I'm getting out into the world do you remember being 22, 23 in New Jersey and what you thought your life was going to be? Or did you think, like, what did you think about your life at that time? At that time, basically, I was working

and I wanted to enjoy life. And I really, really wanted the East Coast experience because we both said that our families were older. And at any point, we might have to move back to Kansas City. And I didn't want to go through If I would or should or coulder So I did it And like I said I did a lot of the plays All that stuff in New York

What was your favorite Do you remember your favorite play that you saw At that time? Dream Girls Dream Girls, oh my gosh Was The original cast Now okay so

I don't know if she was in the original cast But who am I thinking of Gosh No The one that plays on elementary Abid Elementary Barba Yes yes Is her name?

Uh-huh Was she in it? Yes She was part of the original cast Oh my God Was she amazing in it Gloria Divine was part of the original cast Whoa

And Jennifer Holliday Was that her name Jennifer Holliday Yeah Jennifer Holliday She's the one that At the end Just tore the house down Yeah

I saw All the place that I went to, I went, made sure that they were original cats. Because I saw Gregory Hines and sophisticated ladies, and I went to see cats. What did you think of cats? I thought it was okay. I'm going to say it was okay. That's okay. So, okay, so you move out there.

I'm interested in this thing you were saying about when you're saying, I want to enjoy life and I don't want to think. coulda, shoulda, woulda, that you want to make the big choices, is that, I guess there are a lot of young people who, there are a lot of people in that phase of life right now who listen to the show, who are in the early 20s, who are making big choices, who maybe just moved to a new place for a new job or whatever, what would you, do you have any advice for them as someone who went through that at that time in your life? Experience them as much as you can in the new area that you are, that you are in at this point

in time in your life. And you will find new experiences, new friends, new ventures, and really a whole new world will open up to you if you're open to do things. Yeah, that's really interesting. A whole new world will open up to you if you're just open to it. Yeah. So you were in New York and you were doing that and you were going to shows and you're working for AT&T and then what's like, how long, you're there for 11 years, you said?

10, 11 years? What's life like during that time in your personal life? Are you getting new jobs at AT&T? Are you staying in the same job? What's your husband up to? Well, we both got promotions while we were there. And we grew apart while we were there. Yeah.

And I ended up getting a divorce. Yeah. But that was okay. Was it? Mm-hmm. What? Do you want to talk about that? What happened there?

What? Well, the divorce. What inspired the divorce? What was it? Was it some big drama or was it just like, oh, this isn't working out anymore? Yeah, we just, we grew apart. Yeah. It's one of those things where we totally just grew apart.

His values and our values weren't coincided like they were before. They were going in different directions. What were the directions? What changed in the values necessarily? He started snorting coke and that became more important than our marriage. Yeah. That can happen. I mean, that's really, that's a big thing. Yeah.

Is when someone goes on a, you know, gets into a new kind of drug or gets into a new kind of thing and the other person doesn't want to, I mean, that would definitely affect a marriage. That's crazy. So he gets into that stuff. And then I assume you're the one who's like, hey, we need to get a divorce. Mm-hmm. Well, I told him that. Yeah, we had conversations. And I think the breaking point was, and this is really interesting, we started arguing. We never really argued the whole time that we were together. We did not really have arguments. We had disagreements, but we never really like argued, argued. And when we got into those arguments, it's like, okay, this is not going to work. Yeah.

You know, but I tried to save it. We went through, what was it, therapy? We went through therapy. Oh, did you go to, like, marriage counseling? No, we went to marriage counseling. And I love the guy because he said, I'm going to tell you now, I don't try to put them back together. If it's not going to work, I'm going to let you know. not going to work. I was like, okay, cool. But we went through marriage counseling. He didn't

want to, but we did. And after going through it, he says, don't think it, the counselor just said, I don't think it's going to work. And I was, I already do that. I was trying to be a good wife and see if I could save it. But it was like, yeah. And so at that point, marriage counselor says, hey, I don't, I think you guys should call it quits. And then you do. And so how far into being in Jersey is that? How many years in Jersey are you at this point? Probably about five, about five years. Okay.

Five and a half years. Five and a half years. And then what happens then? Do you move out on your own in Jersey? Because you stay there for a while longer. So you get your own place in Somerset? No. I moved to Orange, New Jersey.

Orange, okay. And does the ex-husband stay in Somerset? For a while. Yeah, he did. Yeah. Yeah, he stayed there. So how did you wind up in Orange? Did you have friends over there or anything?

Well, I had somebody to help me move there. Yeah. Because I had already told them that when I was leaving. But see, the thing about it in Jersey, and it really kind of upset me was in Jersey, they have a law that if you stay separated 18 months, you can automatically do it. it's automatic divorce, dissolved of marriage. Okay.

And that's what I was trying to do, but he wasn't having it that way. So we ended up had to get attorneys. Oh. You know, and he made more money than me, so, of course, you know, I was like, but I got through it.

Yeah. I had a lot of support there. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So then you moved to Orange. You're still working for AT&T. Mm-hmm. And then what eventually inspires you

or moves you to come back this way? To take care of a cousin that had Alzheimer's. Yeah. So you moved back here to take care of your cousin. And at that point, do you stay with the job at AT&T or do you? I vested out at that point in time. Yeah.

I could have transferred back and they were going to find me a job here, but I just went on and vested out from AT&T. So what's it like coming back to Kansas City at that point? It was horrible. Really? Yes. Why? I had gotten used to that East Coast life.

Yeah. And Kansas City was slow for me. Yeah. I'm used to going out at 12 o'clock at night. And everybody's going home and getting in bed. It was, I didn't realize it was more of an adjustment for me to move back home than it was for me to leave home. Whoa, that's really interesting. Yeah, especially because now you've gotten used to it.

Because now you're what? You're in your early mid-30s? Mm-hmm. And you come back to Kansas City. Do you still know, like, do you still have a bunch of people here other than family? Like, are your friends all still here? Yeah, I had friends and people here, which made it nice, yes. But it was really, I really, the mindset here was different.

And that was the thing that really threw me all. I was like, oh, okay, when I came back, I came back with dreadlocks. Dreadlocks were not a big thing here in Kansas City. at the time. So I stood out, and some people didn't want to associate with me because I had locks. Really? Oh, my God. You know, and then other people wanted to put me in another box, and they were like,

well, what made you do that? I was like, you know, that's interesting. It fits my lifestyle. And it was like, what? I said, yeah, it fits my lifestyle. What was their problem with people having dreads? What was the assumption or association? Okay, you just got to understand in Kansas City.

How can I put this? You have... At that time, everybody was wearing jerry curls. Yeah. I mean, it was like I'm coming back to greasy hair. I mean, it's like everybody was wearing jerry curls. That was the thing here. And Lox was not a thing here.

Yeah. You know, and so, therefore, they really wasn't accepting the locks, and they didn't understand the lock lifestyle. Yeah. Because at that time, I was living in a Rasta lifestyle. Rasta. Mm-hmm. Okay, and what does that look like?

That's one where... You know, you want me to get it to that? I do want to know, because I don't know anything about it. Yeah, nothing about Rastafarian. I mean, I know I've heard things, and I see things in, like, Meteor or whatever, but I don't... If you're asking, like, do I know anything about what your actual experience living a rasta lifestyle in the 70s and 80s? I got a lot to learn, Denise. Okay, well, it's basically a natural way of living.

And at the time when I came back and still now, I don't eat meat and a lot of rosters don't eat meat. Okay. And you are definitely. pro-African innocence and it's hard for me to explain it to you but one reason why it was easy for me to get into that lifestyle is because of my rearing and the way that I look at Rasta and it might I might be wrong but it's a combination of Christianity and Islam and I grew up in a household with Christianity and Islam. Really? Okay, what did that look like?

So mom was one, dad was the other? Is that the vibe? Mm-mm. My cousin that came back, because my father died, and I never knew who my father was. He died when I was a very young child. Okay, so my mom is Catholic, and my cousin, who we lived in the house with, was Muslim. And I was Methodist. We got everything going on in this house. Tell me about

But see, growing up in a house like that It allowed me to accept people that are different for me And differences It's easy for me to accept differences And not judge people And not try to convert people Just accept people for who they are Because if the vibes are right

And the spirit is right It doesn't matter what you believe in Yeah You can have that good relationship Yeah. I think that's beautiful. You know, and I really, that's something I always say that I wouldn't have changed anything like that. You know, I did use it to my advantage as a mischievous child. How?

Because, see, my mother a lot of times didn't want much. She felt that my cousin was pushing Islam on me, which he wasn't. I'm the one that's curious and I asked a lot of questions. And so if I knew I wanted to go somewhere, And my mom was going to say no, I would get them into a religious argument. And then they... And I'd be like, I mean, I'm the only one in this house. Now I've got to figure out some ways to get things done.

And so I would say, now, bus, you know, in Sunday school, they said this. And I knew he was going to give me an Islamic take on whatever it was. Sometimes it was the same thing Every once in a while things I said Okay, he agreed with me But then sometimes I knew I'd take something Where he wouldn't And my mom would hear

He said, now I didn't told you Eugene And then my mom and him Would get to going back and forth And I was like, yo can I go to this party And so and so south He said, yeah, go get on out of my face And then they're in there And they're in there fighting

While you're off to the party You are mischievous That is so funny So I kind of use religion to my advantage. Absolutely. So would you say that Rasta is a faith? It is. It is a faith, okay.

I believe it is. Because we read the Bible. Yeah. So you picked that up on the East Coast. You got into that out there. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. And it was interesting because this guy said, you know, you're just a commercial

roster. I was like, I don't know what that is, but okay. And then we just got to talking about it. And so I really developed the lifestyle because I liked it. Because, like I said, I didn't really eat meat, and I was really into the natural healing and all of this and that. And so, plus I like reggae, so it was good. Well, that always helps.

Were dreads a part of it for you? Was that part of the Rasta thing? No, I just decided to grow dredts. Different thing. Yeah, that was just different. It was like, okay, what do I want to do with my hair now? So I just cut my hair off one day and then started growing lots. Yeah, interesting.

So then you come back here. and are you renting here when you get back here? No, I was in a family home. You were in a family home. In Midtown, Ken City or somewhere else. On the east side. On the east side. And so it's a little bit of an adjustment coming back.

People are going home when you used to go out, et cetera, et cetera. And what do you think is the big difference between life now? Because this would have been the early 80s? late 80s early 90s what do you think is the biggest difference between life now and life then whoa that's a good question I think on that one

wow like now and life then okay now in general right now and this is nationwide it's hard for people to have housing.

Yeah. I mean, then it was easy. Apartments were affordable. If you wanted to think, it was affordable. Really? Yeah. I mean, even the housing market was a lot cheaper then than it is now. Comparatively, still.

Like, even with inflation and all that stuff, it felt like you could work, if you worked full time, you could afford your housing. You could afford your housing. See, that's so crazy to me because I don't, I've not known a world like that. I don't, I've only lived my whole adult, it has not felt like that.

It's felt like people work full-time and they can't even afford where they live. That's because of inflation and greed. And greed. Well, this gets us into, it kind of gets us into organizing and stuff in Kansas City. So at what point in coming back, do you start to get involved in organizing

and things like that? Is it during that period of your life or is it later on? I didn't get into organizing when I first came back. Yeah. I didn't. When I first came back, I got involved with KKFI. And what is KKFI?

A community radio station, 90.1. Yeah. FM. FM, by the way, yeah. And I did a blue show. Really? I didn't know this about you. Yeah, I have an FCC license, third-class FCC license. And don't forget it.

And don't forget it. And don't you forget that. So wait, you come back here and start doing a blue show. Uh-huh. How'd you get into that? My friend was volunteering at KKFI, and so she was like, come on over here with me. So I came over there with her. She did jazz.

And so at the time, Tom Davis was the general manager, and KKFI was really growing at that point in time, and they finally had made it to 100,000 watts. and they had mouth I don't know if you ever listen to it but they had so many different shows all types of shows

anything from blues jazz they had a bunch of Hispanic shows they had community forms they even had teenagers that did radio shows oh wow yeah because I trained four of the

teenagers that did their radio shows on Take Care 5. Wow. So you just get involved in that through volunteering. Mm-hmm. And what are you doing for work at this point in your life? Living off of what I had. Mm-hmm. What I had accomplished.

Because I wasn't working and I was, like I said, I was taking care of my cousin and see, he would go with me sometime due and whatever, and sometimes my mom would be at home. But I was basically it. And then, yeah, because I became a board member on KKFI, and I was the treasure. Wow. Yeah. So caretaking, volunteering, and then start doing the board member stuff at KKFI and your blues show. How did you decide who to play, just whoever you liked at the time?

Who were you playing the most, do you think? I played a lot of Denise LaSalle. I played a lot of old blues, like Bobby Blue Blam, Cocoa Taylor, you name, and I was playing. And I did it, it's interesting because I did the show with a young teenager. Wow. And at this time you were in your 30s? So this teenager you're working with, were they on air or were they just like helping you? No, they were on air.

We did the show together. Oh, wow. Nathan was his name. Yeah. We did the show. because I was Lady D. Lady D. Lady D.

Yeah, Lady D. Lady D. Oh my gosh. Okay, so do you know where Nathan is now? Last time he was in Florida. His mother was the secretary there. And so he was always at the radio station. Plus, he helped train me a lot because he knew so much from being there a whole lot.

And just somehow we ended up doing the show together. Lady D and Nathan, the Blue Show. I can't remember what his name was. Yeah. So how long did you do the blues show on the radio? For about two and a half years. Dang. Heck yeah.

Every... Wednesday. Every Wednesday. Traffic jam. Traffic jam. And were you hanging around like 18th and Vine going to live music shows here at all during that time? Yeah. The Grand Emporium, which is closed now, that was the spot back in them days.

Really? Oh, they brought all kind of acts here, yeah. What was the vibe at Grand Emporium? Oh, it was live. Yeah? It was live, yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Roger brought a lot of good acts here, and all types of music genres came in, yeah. Who was your favorite act that you saw there? Ooh, that's a horrible design. I'm going to say half pint. Half pint? He was a reggae artist from Jamaica. You like your reggae? I like reggae.

Yeah. Yeah, but I'm eclectic in all areas of my life. I like all music. Only one I'm going to tell you that I don't like, I haven't been able to get into bluegrass. Really? Oh, you like bluegrass? Yeah.

We're going to have a chat. Okay. Bluegrass, like, anytime there's a bluegrass festival or something going on, if I'm free, I'll pop over and listen to someone play the banjo for a while. You don't like that? You're like, no. I've tried it. I tried it when I was out east.

Yeah. It's like, okay. Maybe that I'm older, I can appreciate it. But back then, oh, no, no. So, okay, so you don't get involved in, you're working at KKFI. You're not really involved in politics or organizing at the time. No. What kind of brings you into political life or what kind of brings you into organizing?

Oh, got me. to where I am now. Casey Tenets. Complaining. Sitting up, okay, I was sitting up with friends, and we were complaining, okay? I'm like, you know what? Pretty soon, we're not going to even be able to live in the city because I was seeing all the gentification going on, right?

And I'm like, they're going to be pricing us out of here. Now, where are we going to go to live? That was my thought. And so I said, you know what, we need to start going to the city hall meetings. We need to sit up a group. And we need to do this I need to put a stop to this I said because you know they're using my tax dollars

and I'm not having anything to say I have no say on how they're using my tax dollars well I saw these tenants Casey tenants on TV I remember seeing them when they were doing the homeless thing I was like hmm I mean I looked at I said I was pretty nice let it go

but then I was at the bus stop and I saw this where if you Midtown Tenant Union was doing their teach-ins about gentrification. So I said, I'll go. So I went to the one at the library and rest is history. I've been with KKA. I mean, I've been with KC. Tenets

every since because it was like, okay, this is what I'm looking for. Because when I went in there, they were going against Mac. Okay, Mac wanted to get that $10 million, $10.3 million, and they stopped Mac from getting that. I'm like, I kind of like these people. They down there in the City Hall raising hell, okay?

I want to be a part of this, okay? Yeah. But they were speaking up, and they were wanting to hold City Hall accountable for our money, and we should have some say-so in our money. So, yeah, that's what got me involved with KC. Tenets. So you got involved with KC. Tenants. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.

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claim your name invest in your dream domain today head to squarespace.com slash so true for a free trial when you're ready to launch use offer code so true to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain today's episode is brought to you by alma struggling with your mental health can be lonely okay time to lock in we're not going to do this silly um but you don't have to go out it alone take a break from scrolling and use alma's directory to find a therapist whose expertise suits what you're looking for alma makes it incredibly simple to find a therapist you can use their search tools to narrow down your search with filters like gender, ethnicity, areas of expertise, and more. And this is one of the times where it's cool to do stuff like that. Instead of spending hours

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tenant organizing what would you say to somebody who doesn't know about tenant organizing about why it's important and why it's the thing that you've put so much of your life synergy into Tenant organizing is very, very important because of the fact that majority of the people are tenants in this city. And at this point in time, if you are working class or poor, it is hard for you to afford housing. Anywhere. Yes, anywhere in the United States.

And so, therefore, we need to, organize so that we can't and get affordable housing because at this point in time, outside developers are coming in, and what they're doing is building luxury apartments, which means that the average Joe Blow cannot afford, and they're starting at $1,200 for a one-bedroom apartment. It's madness. People can't afford it. It's crazy. Even in a city like Kansas City, which for the longest time was a place that people thought like, oh, that's affordable.

I can move over there and I can afford to live. Now even places like here are becoming completely inaccessible to people. True. To working people. What is the, you have been so involved in KC tenants. I'm so moved and inspired by your activism and your work with the tenant union and how much you. do for this city and for the tenant union and I'm wondering what um what is the most powerful feeling that you've experienced during your time in the tenant union oh i know it's hard to pick

there's so many of them i guess with me the most powerful one was When we went to City Hall for the $1,200 affordable rent for the city. That was the most powerful time because we showed up in numbers. We did not win, but it was so powerful. One of our Conrads got arrested. And it just, I don't know, it made me feel empowering. And it was like, yes, yes. And we shut City Hall down a few times, you know.

Sometimes I. One thing I noticed when we go there, it's kind of like, we put a little bit of fear in them. Because it's like, okay, what are they going to do now? we do put fear in and when we go down there to show up to hold them accountable yeah i think sometimes the losses can be even more galvanizing than the winds yes because it's like you really get people pissed off and you get people and we should all be pissed off people who care about working people in this country should be pissed off and sometimes those losses get people even more involved than they would have been had you won right because it gets

people to where they should be which is angry and paying attention right what do you think think of, I know that you had some experience with a New York Times reporter asking about, like, oh, what are the older folks in the Tenet Union make of pronouns and this kind of stuff? I feel like they're always trying. People hear about the organizing of the Tenet Union. They hear that we've organized mega Republican Trump people and we've organized younger people and older people and that the Tenant Union has really brought such a diverse coalition of people together to fight for this issue. And I think a lot of outsiders' first instinct is to poke holes and go, well, that can't work. If that worked, we'd already be doing it or whatever.

What do you think is the secret to KC tenants and the tenant union in general working with so many different types of people? How does it work? We don't judge people. Yeah. We accept people for who they are. Yeah. And we embrace everyone that comes in to KC. tenants. Even someone who votes differently than you.

Or somebody who has different pronouns or somebody who, whatever, and you find that easy. Yeah. And even if they don't use pronouns, that's okay. Yeah. That reporter really tried it with you. There was a reporter that came. You want to tell this story? I'm going to let you tell us. One of my most favorite iconic Denise moments there were many to choose from.

A reporter came and was like, was asking you what about, wanted you to, wanted to ask about the pronouns and how that worked. And if you were upset about people using pronouns in the tenant union, and you were saying that, Did you try she they for a second? Did you consider it? No, I was using day them or something like that. You know, I was like using day them. And somebody was like, so they said, so you are day them. I said, yeah, is that a problem?

And it's like, I wouldn't, I didn't take you for that. I was like, okay, I don't understand what you mean. but I heard Funky Dianiva explained pronouns I said oh now I understand what they were saying so I immediately changed mine to she her

I said because I might be missing out on something here if I don't do that I'm like oh they're going to think that I don't like me and oh no no no no they thought there was people There were people thinking that because you had a they in the mix, that you maybe were a lesbian, which is not the same thing, but it was confusing to people.

Well, it was confusing to him. And I was like, oh, no, I don't want this confusion. I'm a she, her, uh-huh, because I'm addicted to dick, okay? Recognize. I'm obsessed. I think the thing that you're saying about accepting everybody, I think what it means, you're saying, about accepting everybody, I think what it means. to me is that like in organizing in this way, in organizing tenants specifically, is that we have

a very singular goal in mind. It's fair, affordable, safe housing for everybody. And when we say that, we mean everybody. Right. Whether you vote like us, whether you talk like us, whether you look or think or pray like us, whatever that means, the us that we're talking about is such an amalgamation of different types of people that there really is no in-group or out-group. The end-group is, do you think that everyone deserves safe, affordable, fair housing, and the outgroup is, do you think that that's not true and it's okay to exploit your neighbors? That's the in-group out-group. Everything else is immaterial to that. And so to us, what that means, people who organize with the tenant union and allies, I'm not nearly as much of an organizer and presence as you or Tara or any of the

leaders in the union, I just come around and help out when I can. But what that means to us who believe in this mission and are trying to help with this work, or do this work, is that a lot of that stuff is kind of not our business. We're worried about your housing, and we're worried about you being treated fairly by your landlord. Does that feel true? That is 100% true. Yeah.

I'm really grateful to the tenant union because it has really clarified and centered my political activism. I feel like I hadn't had political hope in years. I hadn't had political hope since when I was like, you know, 11, 12 years old, and Obama got elected the first time. That was probably the last time

I felt like genuine political, well, Bernie's campaigns, but then the DNC screwed him. They did everything they could to destroy that man's campaigns. Which is horrible because I think he would have won in our country be in a totally different place right now.

But genuine pure political hope I hadn't had in so long and I get that from the tenant union that I feel like, oh, this is so clarifying to me that Tara says all the time like, you get to wake up every day and decide whose team you're on, choose what side you're on. And I like being on the side of the tenant union.

Oh, yeah, best team to be on. But see, also another thing that we look at, too, with our tenant unions, is not only a place for everybody to live, but a safe place. Because right now we're dealing with a lot of landlords that are slumlords, and they are not keeping the buildings up. but yet they're getting our tax dollars. Yeah. Okay.

And there's infestation of roaches, rats, ceilings are falling down, there's mold in the buildings, plumbing's messed up, and I can go on and on naming all the problems that tenants are having in these apartments. And tomorrow, we are launching a tenant strike at Bowling Towers in Raytown, Missouri. And it's because of these conditions. And the landlord does not want to come to the bargaining table with us, do not want to fix what's done. And so the best way that you can get anybody. it's hit them in their pocket.

And so. These people think they're untouchable. They think they are. They think that they don't have to listen to, especially because it is, it's classist, it's agist, it's racist, it's racist. A lot of these people, the specific reason that they think that they don't have to engage with their tenants is because their tenants are often, almost always, low-income people, first and foremost, but then also often senior citizens, but then also.

but then also often immigrants, but then also often people of color. And so these rich companies that take money from the government to subsidize their housing projects, our money that we have given to the government to participate in a society, they take that money. It's given to them to run these buildings. Then they don't run the buildings and pocket the money. True. It is so beyond fucked up and evil what they are doing.

and then when the tenants say hey things are so bad that we've unionized we need to talk to you for the owner or the landlord or whatever the title may be for them to not come to the table is unacceptable it is so the tenant strike by the time this episode comes out that you're talking about in Raytown will be launched a tenant strike will have happened and a tenant strike for people who don't know is a rent strike is when renters withhold rent in order to force the owner of their building or the landlord or the property manager, whatever, you know, the titles are, to negotiate with them about unsafe and unfair living conditions.

And so that's what we'll be in the middle of in Raytown by the time this comes out. Yes, that is so true. Yeah. Speaking of So True, Denise, what is so true to you? Do you have a so true? Yeah, your podcast. My podcast is so true to you?

I do love your podcast, though. Thank you. What is so true. Oh, I'm going to tell you what's so true to me. Okay. Is older people having a friendship and a good relationship with younger people and younger people having friendships and good relationships with older people? And that's kind of where I am in my life because it seems like a lot of my friendships

and relationships are with people that are younger than me. And they are really good. And we learn from each other, and we grow from each other. Because to me, there is no age limit on where you can get help from. Especially if it's technology, I'm going to go with somebody younger. I'm a dummy when you're going to technology. But, yeah, because it was interesting. It was this girl, she's probably in her 30s, I'll say, early 30s.

And she hung out with me and somebody else that is older, like in her 50s. And after the experience with us, she says, oh, you give me, you girls give me a different perspective on old people. I was like, okay, what was your perspective on old people before you hung out with us? That y'all were dull, boring, and just angry with life. I was like, oh, that must have been them people. hung you used to hanging around with or no oh no no no no we're full of life we enjoy life and we're not angry about nothing yeah i i completely agree i think it's so important and special

and you do have so many i mean everybody knows denise you got so many you got so many you got so many different kinds of people around you i'm very i think the there is though a problem i think many younger people would be interested in having intergenerational friendships and maybe many older folks would as well but no one seems to know the place to make it happen I think the tenant union is a great place to make it happen I was just getting ready to say I said Casey tennis will make it happen yeah and we're lucky we have a great tenant union here yes so many people when we had tar on so many people commented and were like I wish I had this in my city I wish I had this in my town and I'm like well the unfortunately for me someone had already

started one in my city so I got to just kind of come over and hang out and get to know the work but if you don't have one, you have to start one. Well, what I'm going to say on that is we'll probably be coming to your town soon, so look out for us. That's what I'm going to say on that. Yeah. Yes. Well, you're talking about intergenerational friendships,

and I asked you a little bit earlier, like advice you would give to people in their 20s about moving to a new place or something. But I feel like you're a happy, active person who, who has a full life. What do you think is the, I don't want to say secret because secret never feels like the right word, but what do you think is the key

to living a happy life or a good life? I guess my secret is, well, I always try to stay in peace. I meditate. And I do not hold a lot. I do not hold a lot of negativity. I try hard knock negativity out. Okay? And

with that, you can't help but be happy. Because negativity is what brings you down. But positiveness is going to bring you up and it's going to make you happy. And then you've got to love yourself. Yeah. Have you always loved yourself? Always have. Yeah? Yeah, I think so much to I'm arrogant to some people. some people say you just arrogant no I said I just love myself yeah it was easy for you it just came natural I guess it did no I'm gonna tell you what made me do this okay

in Sunday school when I was a kid I had a Sunday school teacher said something somebody had said something they were putting themselves down she said remember this I say oh God don't make junk and he made you mm and for At that point in on, he was like, okay, okay, okay, I got that. God don't make junk, he made you. He don't make junk, and he made you. So therefore, it was like, okay, so therefore you can't help but put yourself up here. You can't put yourself down here if you believe that.

Since he don't make junk, then, I don't know. And part of it, probably my family instilled stuff into believing in yourself. Yeah. Because if you don't believe in yourself, nobody else will. and I didn't really grow up around a lot of negativity to be honest I grew up in a very peaceful house I really really did there was not a lot of arguments and stuff like that everything was peaceful in my house and that's kind of how I live

a whole lot of foolishness and mayhem I can't deal I can't deal with that in a home that shows and makes sense you have a very calming presence about you it makes sense that I mean plenty of people kind of to a calming presence and I had to do a lot of work or whatever, but that doesn't surprise me at all. You have a very, you have a very calming energy about you. I feel very calm when I'm talking to you and hanging out with you. Yeah, you have one too. Thank you. I try. My, I want to, my favorite thing that you and I got to be a part of, that the tenant union has done,

is we made a video, you and I, for the stadium. Right. That the chiefs and the royals, who We love the teams. They were trying to get a downtown stadium built. They wanted the taxpayers to pay for it. They wanted to displace a bunch of our neighbors to do it. Makes no sense. They've got perfectly good stadiums right now. And their whole threat to the voters was,

if you don't give us all this money and let us do this, we're going to leave. And we beat them. The Ken City tenants organized and beat them and got this thing voted down. And I just, like, that is the most inspiring thing politically I think I've been involved in my adult life. I just thought that was so, I honest to God, and I know this probably sounds bad,

but when we were fighting that fight and when we were telling everyone about it and making our video and working on that, I kind of in the back of my head was like, oh, we got a big fight. I don't know. I try not to ever sit in that place mentally because that's counterproductive to good organizing, but in the back of my head, I was like, this is a pretty improbable fight that we're having, and I'm so glad that we're having it. But I was shocked that we won, to be honest.

Oh, then you must learn this, a saying we have. We always say this, we will win. I believe we will win. I believe we will win. And that's really our mindset whenever we go into something. Not saying, we don't win everything, but that is our mindset when we go into any campaign or anything that we go on, any direct action. We go in with a winning attitude.

Yeah. And we go in. and we act and we do everything from a winning perspective. And then, two, we just come together because there are so many brains and knowledge in KC. tennis that just comes together and we can go here, go there, and bring the things together and make it work. Because on that, I like the slogan, and I think that's the catchphrase was, billionaires are trying to bully us because basically that's what they were doing. Yeah.

And then people like, yeah, they're more billionaires. They're bullying the taxpayers. Yeah. You're somebody who has a lot of, I feel like, hope and a lot of belief. And the thing that I hear so much from people right now, my peers, my friends, people in the responses to this show or whatever, people feel really hopeless right now. I think people are struggling to feel political hope, to feel hope in the future, to feel hope in the, and the idea that things are going to get better.

What gives you hope and what would you say to someone who's struggling with having hope right now? Well, the only thing I can say is organizing changes things. It brings hope and it also brings prosperity. Because if you really look at this country, every big movement or every, every change that has been made, has been made by the little people, grassroots people. So get involved in something, organization that is in your self-interest.

But I would like for you to get involved with KC. Tenets. But if KC. Tenets is not in your self-interest, there are other organizations that can bring you hope in this city. It depends on what. If you're with climate, there's organizations that deal with the climate. There's political organizations. There's a lot of organizations.

And if you need help in finding one, just contact me at KC. Tenets, and I will hook you up. Get a hold of Denise. Get a hold of Denise. Denise, have a game for you. A segment. Are you ready for this? I'm playing games.

Yeah. Remember when you did that with Trickley. Uh-huh. And now it's time to do it with you. You watched it when Trixie did it? Oh, I love that. I love that. I love that.

And then, I can go on with your show. I tell you, I look at your show. I know. I know you do. Okay, well, now it's your turn, Denise. Forget about all those people. It's the Denise show now. I'm going to read you 15 statements.

You're going to tell me as quickly as you can if you think what I just said is true or false. And if you get 10 or more correct, We're going to give you $50 U.S. dollars. Big prize for this game show. You ready? Mm-hmm. Okay. The Kansas Chiefs were originally called the Dallas Texans.

Dallas? No. It's true. I know, they were. And I know that. And I said, no. Jay was the last letter to be added to the alphabet. No.

True. Lightning can't strike the same place twice. Yes, it can. Yes. So it's false. It can. clouds are weightless False

They can weigh over a million pounds Oh, I'm done Richard No Richard Nixon was the 37th president of the United States He could have been Yeah true

True Can City Kansas is older than Kansas City, Missouri True False karaoke means empty orchestra in Japanese I don't know what I'm just going to say true True The King of Hearts is the only king card

With king card without a mustache False It's true The first product to have a barcode was Dr. Pepper I don't know about that True False, it was wriggly gum There are two credit cards for every person

In the United States I don't know about that that one now uh two critical oh that's true that is true the pancreas produces white blood cells true false insulin oh insulin when you die your hair still grows for a couple of months true it's true bats are the only mammals that can actually fly True. That is true. There are 10 gates barbecue locations in the KC metro area.

That's false. Okay. It does say false, but then it says 10. So Chance messed this question up, so he's getting in trouble. But I believe you that it's false. Snakes are the deadliest animals in the world. true false it's mosquitoes oh mosquitoes you got eight oh you got eight that's really good honestly yeah but i didn't give you dog no no no no denise you get paid regardless just so you know

just so you know um is there anything else that we didn't get to that you wanted to tell people any message you want to leave people with on your so true episode oh this is going to be after Yeah, this will come out the day of the show. Okay, so everyone come down to heat. The Uptown. Everyone come to the Uptown Theater, 38th and Broadway for the he-haw with extravaganza. Trust me, you don't want to miss it. It's one of the best he-hawls you will ever go to.

Lady Dee. Lady Dee, back on the mic. Thank you so much for being here, Denise. We love you. Thank you for having me. Appreciate you.