So True with Caleb Hearon - Jo Sunday Loves Old People

Episode Date: March 5, 2026

Welcome! This week’s guest is the hilarious Jo Sunday! Jo and Caleb talk the Millennial vs. Gen Z debate, summer camps, reality TV icons, legacy, and much more! Join our Substack for ad free full episodes, early access to merch, our community chat, and more! https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/ Follow Jo! @jo.llofrice Follow the show! @sooootruepod Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud Head to https://squarespace.com/sotrue for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, use OFFER CODE: SoTrue to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Try Trü Frü! Blue bags with fruit found in the freezer aisle! So True with Caleb Hearon is edited and engineered by Nicole Lyons. Our social media manager is Virginia Muller. All episodes are filmed in The So Trudio at Legitimate Business World Headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. A Wave series. wavesportsandentertainment.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Wave. So you became cool quickly. No, I was still not cool, but I was not going to spend even an hour doing something I didn't want to do. That's cool. And I would say that is cool. That is stuck. Have any kind of kinks? Yeah.

Will you say? No, there's secrets. They're between me and my lovers. I respect that. But I don't, I will tell you for sure. Mine are like totally sick and I also shouldn't say. Definitely, like in terms of what I'm searching on the computer. Yeah.

There are things I'm searching and thinking about that I've never told a soul. How often are you watching P? Watching P. It comes and goes and waves. Yeah. But even when I am watching P, I'm not really watching. I'm just using it for inspo and I'm imagining the rest. Yeah.

I'm turning it on. It's like the pizza girl gets to the door. I'm like, thank you. Got it. Laptop closed. Have the characters, thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have the characters in the setting.

I'll be working on the plot. Thank you. But these days, I'm feeling a bit more creatively alive, and so I don't really need to turn on the plot. I can just kind of, got it in here. See, I told people this one's... They never do it right.

Okay, go ahead. I told people this once in college. That I really, I really can... I really can do everything I need with just my imagination. Oh, that's so... And I was made fun of. They're like, what do you mean? And I was like, I just imagined something awesome.

And then I get to work. I imagine something awesome. I do. I find it hard. Like even if I have a crush on someone or I think someone's hot, for some reason that's not helpful. This is why I worry that I'm like asexual or something. Like I don't think you're asexual.

Oh, okay. Just based on what you told me, I mean. I don't even know where the camera is. To my new lover. You hear that? Your new lover that you met last night. Yeah. Okay, huge.

Did something happen or this is just a vibe that you're getting? I felt in love. Like, as simple as that. Will you walk me through it? I want to hear about it. I know, that's what I want. Well, usually, I don't fuck fans. Do you fuck fans?

For sure. Happy to. It's my honor and privilege. Fucking a fan is my honor and privilege. It's one of the most special parts of my work. Whoa. It means more to me than writing. Oh, what?

Getting a laugh means nothing to me compared to making a fan come. I love to make a fancy. Oh, well, usually, usually I can't. Usually there's something about it that's like, maybe it's like I don't respect them enough. Why not? They should be a fan. You're great.

That's bad. Well, thank you for saying that. And I feel kind of the same way. I know you do. Yeah. Or at least like when someone's my fan, I'm like, this guy kind of knows what's going on. Taste. Yeah.

It's actually tough. Like someone really hurt my feelings lately. I was trying to date someone completely elderly. Yeah. And all my friends the whole time were like, this person wears a fedora, Joe. Like you should not be letting them hurt your feelings like this. And I'm like before, during and after, I stand by it. The fedora guy was like totally hot. Was that the most recent time you got your feelings hurt romantically? Yes, but also like I wake up every day and I get my feelings her romantically. Yeah. What did you change your mind about most recently do you think? Oh, fuck, fuck, fuck. Can you think of it? Well, because it's kind of an annoying question. But if you can think Think of one. We love. So, annoying question, annoying answer. So is this the part where we kiss?

Hey, Mr. Hey, Mr. sends me. Oh, my gosh. I actually, I have something real that I've changed my mind about recently. And it's good. Oh, it's kind of boring. But I doubt it. I've changed my mind about like, like being a self-made man.

Hmm. Same more. Like, I think I really. Um. like, like for some reason, Bo Burnham is coming to my mind. Like I have this idea that Bo Burnham like came out of the womb, a prolific comedic genius.

And I think I kind of fetishize the person who, yeah, like didn't need any training, didn't need any help and could just do it like that. Haza. And for some reason I have this feeling that if I like, like, like, like take a class in something or like have someone help me write something

or yeah, just like having, I guess, institutional support to build the skills that I want to have that it like counts less. Or that's the idea that I had. And suddenly I woke up this year and I was like, that was made up. Like I think the coolest thing is to study. There's no such thing as a singular effortless genius.

Yeah. And there's only like really negative outcomes in pursuing trying to be one. Yeah. Yeah. Probably good that I let go. of it. I get it though, because we all pursued it at one point and we all consider it. Because you see like, oh my God, this person like they wrote this beautiful thing and performed in it

and set designed it or whatever. Like they did whatever, whatever, whatever. And it's like, that's fine. And they just knew how to do that. And they didn't. And they didn't. And by the way, a lot of times, even if those projects turn out great, it probably would have greatly improved if not. You're so right. If not only the project, definitely the experience for that person of just letting people they worked with. Yeah. You know. I also realized a lot of training, especially in creative work, a lot of people have training like early on in their life that's kind of obscured. Like I'm thinking about like something I have a tip of my shoulder about is I never really went to summer camp. I went to like this weird government camp. That makes it sound worse than it was. I'll be

asking about that. Don't know what that means. Really interested to find out. Okay, putting a pin in the government camp. Yeah, government camp. Coming back to the government camp. But, like, there are all sorts of, like, arts camps and theater camps and, like,

little programs that people do when they're young that I at least wasn't thinking of as their, like, official training. But I think it, it is real and it does matter. Or even just, like, who is, like, encouraged to consume and make art as a kid? Like, who has creative parents, who has creativity in our life and our kid.

I don't know. 100%. That's a huge. I don't think people realize how I didn't even consider that I could be a creative person or an artist until I was in my 20s. It was just never, I didn't grow up around artists. Same.

Wait, I didn't know this about you though. I'm surprised. Oh, yeah. I grew up in like working class small town Missouri. Everyone was just like broke and working. Yeah, yeah. Which is, I'm so grateful for it. Massively informs my perspective.

And I think it was a training of its own. but like yeah people who were told from like a very young age that they could perform yes you have no idea how valuable that is it's huge yeah yeah that is really helpful and coming from money i mean but that's the often talked about thing i just do think about a lot i'm like you guys really as much as as some of these people think they know how much that helps them i'm like you really have no fucking clue how hard it is to take any of these risks when completely nobody you know can help you completely yeah government camp looking at a success story government camp i think Mr. John F. Kennedy went there.

So there was, I think, an A-24 movie, Boy State. Oh, I know Boy State. I went to Girl State. I went to Boy State. You did? For 12 hours. You left? I hated it.

I won. You won? You're looking at, well, I believe this. You're looking at Speaker of the House. Yeah. And what's it called? Like, would you call Kamala Harris? the runner up to the presidency because that's what I was at girl like I

basically I won my primary but then my party lost for governor you lost an election I can it's like I cannot say this is what I'm talking about this is a happy person in front of me a happy person doesn't say they lost the election they say they were runner up they got second place in the election where you can only get first place you caught me on a good day Like, no, I wouldn't call Kamala the runner up, personally. But I love that mindset. The runner up. Oh my gosh.

Did you enjoy Girl State? Well. Or were you just good at it? You think I'm, you think I'm, you think I'm, you think I'm going to spend a weekend with a thousand girls and not enjoy myself. Say that. Say that. Um. Are you kissing?

Nothing like that. Okay. I didn't know. I didn't know. I just check in on this stuff. Wait, you're at Girl State, you mean? Or in my life? I mean at Girl State?

Just because you said a thousand girls and you were so happy. I thought maybe there was kissing. There were other, no, like the homoerotic girls there were different homoerotic girls situations of my youth. No, Girl State. And it's so funny because every freaking thing was made up. Like, it had no connection.

Like, we didn't, like, we didn't do, like, a volunteering day in the community. Like, it was entirely fiction, but we took it so seriously that you saying were we, I'm like, I was at work. Yeah, why would I kiss at work? I was campaigning. Like, what are you talking about? We were creating laws about how to walk on the sidewalk. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not kissing. Yeah. I'm in Congress. Well, I think one of our, and there were, like, there were these weird conservative girls who. There always are. Um, they wanted, they, they wanted to like, further criminalized prostitution. Of course. And that's what we discussed for, for a week, just for fun. Yeah.

Um, but what was it? Did I like girl state? I don't know. Yeah. I don't remember what. No, I don't remember what the question was. If it was if you liked girl state, if you had fun, if you enjoyed it. Oh.

Yes. And I also, like, I, uh, I, you know what? I was a little bit in my like Olivia Pope bag. Like I would, because when you're campaigning, I was using facts, but I was molding facts about my life to make my constituents feel a certain way. Of course. And I was getting like totally high off of that feeling. Yeah.

I would refer to, I relate to this more than you know, because I would refer to the years like 14 through 19 of my life as the campaign. I was on the campaign trail that whole time. Oh, my God. Wait, but I think I know this about you. Oh, I was campaigning. Because you were. And I was never the runner up.

I won. I won. But I didn't win at Boyce State. I'm really, really. Wait, you literally, you patch your bags and you went home. Which is why I'm so impressed with you that you stayed and like rocked it out because I got there. I got there. I went to one like assembly of it and I immediately called my mom and was like, tell them grandma got in a car crash. I need to come home. What? What was so scary about it? It wasn't

scary. I hated it. I hated the guys. I hated the leaders. I hated. They had like an attorney general from the state that was like a Republican come and speak to us on opening ceremony. And I was like, fuck this noise. I'm fucking out of here. I piece not a and so my counselor comes and he goes, hi, can we talk to you for a moment? I go, yeah. He goes, so your mom called. and told us that your grandma had an accident. And this is exact tone. Oh my God. All love to your mom.

I'm like, why didn't she sell it? Yeah, she didn't. She did not. And I had driven myself there because I was, you know, 16, 17. I had a driver's license. And my dad worked at the college, actually, where they hosted it. And I was like, I was like, yeah, I got to, I got to go. Sorry, it's all for grandma, you know.

And he was like, yeah, don't you think your grandma would want you to, sounds like she's going to be fine. Don't you think she'd want you to like stay and honor your commitment? And I was like, no. Commitment to what? I mean, these people are insane. It is insane. Boy State is one of the most psychopathic.

They recently hit me up through a mutual friend and was like, would Caleb come and speak at Boystays? Oh my gosh. But maybe do. Maybe do so you can twist their minds in the right way. I mean horrible. And I went, I left. I packed my stuff. I got in my car.

The one little gay guy is part of it. I was the one little gay guy. Yeah, but there's going to be another one. I needed to go bad. No. I don't want him to, I want him to find me in another way. I talk every week for an hour. Find me on So True, Brother.

Fair, fair, fair, fair, fair. I went and had lunch with my dad. I went and had lunch with my dad because he lived in that town. And he, when we were at lunch, he goes, so you, you left Boy State already, huh? I go, yeah, he goes, I can't believe you were doing that dork shit. He was like, he was like, I just, when you told me you were going to do it, I was like, he's so much cooler than that. And I was like, King. That's cool.

Yeah. So you became cool quickly. No, I was still not cool. but I was not going to spend even an hour doing something I didn't want to do. That's cool. And I would say that is cool. That is stuck. That is cool.

I would say that's held. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is really cool. That's something I'm learning. No, like, they're totally incriminating photos of me, like, kissing the American flag and, like, giving a campaign speech in, like, ASL. Like, it's, like, totally, like, sinister. Well, no. Oh.

That's the issue. Oh. So you were doing fake sign language in your campaign speech? No, it was just like I studied that speech in sign language. Oh. That's actually really cool. Do you see what I'm saying? I was in my bag.

I think that's very accessible and cool of you actually. Thanks. Yeah. Because I watched Switch That Birth on Freeform, formerly known as ABC Family. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to Freeform. God love them.

If they want to put me in a show, I'll be in the show. A. What else is going on with you? Do you think you're an intimidating person? Do you think people are intimidated by you? Caleb. Yeah. Are you saying that because I'm black?

No. Okay. No, no, no. I'm sorry, I said that. Yeah, I didn't. My heart wasn't in it. My heart wasn't in it. I was not willing to have the conversation.

My heart wasn't in it. I didn't, that was, accusation wasn't real. But why do you ask me that? Do you think I'm intimidated? No, I don't. But I think I could see if somebody, you said something, you turned, first of all, you're very cool. I think you're very cool and very smart and very funny.

Thank you so much for saying that. You know that. And I really think highly of you and I believe in you and I think you're fantastic. So that, but that intimidates people, I think. Coolness especially intimidates people. And I think you're very cool. And there was something you said a couple of minutes ago where we were in conversation and you were like, what was the question?

I forgot it. And you said it in a way that I was like, that doesn't bother me. But I know people that that would unravel for months. Why? Just because you were like so confident and like, I don't know, there was just something about the way you turned that phrase that I was like,

I know people who would get really undone by that. I like read myself so differently than other people read me. Because when I said that, I was, I think I have an underdog complex where even in that moment, I was like, oh, fuck, I'm being such a loser.

Like, I came all the way to be on Caleb's podcast. He asked me a simple question. I can't even freaking. remember like this is so embarrassing. I wasn't thinking of that as like my cool swath like what the hell did you ask me? I didn't even listen. And I didn't think you were. That's the thing I'm saying. But do you do you ever do you ever get feedback that people think you're intimidating? It's interesting because I think kind of yes. I think throughout my life yes. It's difficult

because well, it's a little bit like the thing. where I always have this race card that I can pop out of my back pocket. And it's kind of like when I have a fight with my friend group, I can't quite tell, like, are these people racist? Or am I uniquely just being a total fucking bitch? We'll never know. We'll never get to the bottom of it.

So I'm thinking, like really in elementary school that was feedback. that I would get that I was like intimidating or like scaring people but it's tough because yeah how much of that is my personality and how much of that is people kind of slotting me into a narrative that they're already ready to put me into but I mean it sounds like what you're saying is it's like 99% personality and vibe well no I'm asking because I don't feel I don't feel that I am cool in a technical definition of the word but I get feedback a lot that I'm in and I find it very confusing because I think I'm warm and inviting.

We might relate because, yeah, you're someone who, yeah, like if I, if I write out the facts on paper, if I were to describe you, super warm and super inviting, well, except, uh-oh, are we going to go here? When the first couple times we met, I was like, so that guy wants me dead. Really? Or not even wants me dead because first you'd have to, first you'd have to care. Oh, I liked you so much when I met you. Really? I thought you were so great.

Wow. Yeah. In Chicago? Wow. I thought you were great. Oh, man. See, I'm sorry. I read you with such malice.

It's not nice. That's so funny. No, but people do. But why would you care? Like, I was just leave his friend. I thought you were cool. I was like this. She's a big a sweet girl.

Interesting. Yeah. So then maybe we have the same syndrome where I'm wondering. You were like totally friendly to me. But yeah, I was just like, oh my gosh. Like Leva's friend, like he's older, he's so cool. He knows film. He's got me.

He's real. Well, also, Leva loving you was more than enough for me to love you. I'm like, if Leva loves you, I love you. Until you give me a reason not to. A gift from Leva. You know? But I think, yeah, the reason I ask is because I find you to be so, I find you to be very warm and inviting and fun and not hard to talk to at all.

But then I was thinking like, oh, I kind of think that of myself too. And I get this feedback a lot. So I wondered. Can the listeners? what on the Patreon on the substack can they please weigh in about if I'm intimidating? Substack commenters

Will they feel safe to say? Even though Joe has explicitly said it might be racism, go ahead and let us know if you would be intimidated by Joe. We can strike that from the record like seriously. What's it called politically when you like you get a pass?

Is that amnesty? Oh, for this instance. You're going to give them a. pass on worrying about if it's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I know what you mean. I've told a lot of people this about their... I'm giving up pardons. Pardon, pardon. Pardon, pardon. Pardon, part, runner up. I'm given you a pardon. I've told a lot of people this about a lot of white comics, specifically this about their intimidation, their feeling of intimidation from Zeeway. That I'm like, I really feel that you are intimidated by Zway. Yes, the format of her show is inherently

confrontational. Yeah. And so you might, in a, in the biggest way, you might show a problem with confrontation and being wrong and being so scared of being wrong. But I think in a more specific and nuanced way, you specifically fear that you are not allowed to disagree with a black woman. And that specifically feels like a type of like, paternalistic misogy noir that's like, it's a different kind of like pedestal placing racism and misogyny. So I know, I know what you mean.

I was about to say I know exactly what you mean. I probably can't know exactly. But I know what you mean by is it just who I, am or am I doing something? Yeah. I mean, to be honest, this, it's, I feel like this is totally cathartic to talk about. This is something that I'm like so sensitive about. Like in, in general or lately? Well, kind of lately. Like a season, it's a season that's really flaring up right now. Like, anytime I have conflict with a friend or with someone I care about, I'm really, and I think I might be making it up a bit, probably.

But I'm really afraid that people would be afraid to come to me. And it's tough because I'm also, like I'm quite sensitive and I'm quite reactive. And so I think those things don't mix well. If someone like is sensitive and reactive and is intimidating, I'm like, that equals abuser. I don't want to be that. Yeah. That's interesting. I don't know.

The intimidating thing is so, uh, yeah, the intimidating thing is so interesting to me. And I think it's mostly because I don't find, I'm like trying to think of someone I find intimidating. Hmm. I don't really feel that.

That's not something that I feel. Chance, is there someone I find intimidating? We're so similar, Caleb. I'm not, I'm awesome. But who do you find intimidated?

Who are you intimidated by? Well, the thing is like, because I think like, I guess, thinking about celebrity culture. Yeah. Like, like,

this is when I get into, like, this is when I feel like a 2000s reality TV character where I'm like, I'm not intimidated by anyone. Which of these bitches would intimidate me?

Yeah. Like, who is there to scare me? But I think other people don't feel that way. Yeah, I think for me it's just like, I don't know, everybody, I don't, know, everybody has like insecurities and fears and is bringing their own shit to every situation in a way that I'm like. Yeah, I'm intimidated by like my legit friends, I think. Yeah.

Maybe not intimidated by, but like, I'm definitely not intimidated by stream. I don't think I'm I don't know what I'm saying. I think the, I know what you mean. I think the closest I get to being intimidated is when I'm around people who do like objectively good selfless work for like a living. Like when I'm around like tenant organizers or like nurses or like somebody who like. Do you feel intimidated like they're going to hit you or something? No, not like these. I don't know if you've been around union organizers, but I'm not worried about any of these leftists. Hitting me.

I can tell you that. If the right wing has anything going for them, it's that none of these people can pack a punch. Some guns. Yeah. No, I just, I feel, I feel. And we should, by the way.

I feel silly sometimes that I'm like, oh, my little clown show that I do. Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. You know. Is that intimidation? I don't know. I don't know. I'm lost.

Like, I don't know what the definition of intimidation. Like, I feel like there's, they're, but to me, when you say intimidated, I think it, like, Yeah, it's something about a fear that that person could, like, even if emotionally, like, hurt me. Yeah, that they could undo you. Yeah.

Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, that maybe they would, like, really write a poem that ends you. Or, like, I don't know, that they would, like, do, I think the, I think intimidation to me, the way that I conceptualize it in my brain is like, oh, if I give that person a chance or if I mess up around them, they will, maybe not even they will. They have the ability to undo me. They have the ability to spin me out, make me think differently of myself, ruin my day. I'm seeing a face.

I'm seeing a face. Totally. Yeah? Yeah. I won't say. Yeah, of course. Of course. No, we would never give them that power in public. You can tell me later.

Yeah. I also want to say to the listeners of the show, we say you can tell me later on this show like three times an episode. And I would say we never end up. I never end up actually fall. Because I forget and we never. So actually don't feel bad. You should publish it as a book. Yeah.

Like an index of like all that you can tell me later. Because at that point it's like the person's not going to go find the book and buy the book and read it. Yeah. I have told chance that if I were to die before him, if I were to die ever, that he is allowed to release like everything we've ever cut from this show. Wow. Of me, of my talking. Because we cut things, you know, sometimes that I'm like, oh, that would come off insensitive or I shouldn't have said that or whatever. or like since we've recorded that,

something has happened in the world that makes that something I actually don't want to say. I've given chance permission when I die to... Caleb. If you outlives me, yeah. How do you wish to be remembered in death? You delivering this to me laying on that chair like that?

Suddenly I've gotten so comfortable. I love that you're comfy in here. It means the world to me. Okay, let me know. I do wonder if you'll be in frame on your camera at all and it's not something I'm worried about. Well... If it's just your feet, it's really funny, actually.

Like a good portion of the podcast is just your feet with a shelf in the background. I'll get up in it. I mean, maybe it's like I need to play hard to get with Hollywood. Yeah. Oh, I'm just like, maybe you could cast me, but you'll have to start from the feet. Maybe they want to see the bond. Maybe they want to see the outfit. I was worried that my full outfit would it show.

When you have really cute shoes on today, but they're not on your feet at the moment. Oh my gosh. You're so right. Yeah. Guys. Put them up. Pause up These are vintage

I love them because they're like a Mary Jane but there's like something serious happening with the soul Great shoe That's what I have to say How do you want to be remembered? Like not interesting

Just the classic like I really want to make a splash Yeah? Yeah How so? In death or like what does that mean? Like I really want I oh God it's so no

I really want it to be like, I need there to be something, like some genre or some art form that is like paradigmatically changed. Yeah. Oh my God, my delusions of grandeur. But really, like,

stand-up was never the same because of Joe Sunday. Yeah. Film was never the same because of Joe Sunday. I like that. Crazy for someone to say that who was a five to six minutes set. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Well, it's audacity and it's needed, by the way.

It's audacity and it's needed. But that's my plan. This podcast, my podcast, my child and the love of my life, the podcast so true, is brought to you by, you guessed it, Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-on-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything. You need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website,

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with fruit found in the freezer aisle thank you true fruit for sponsoring this episode we love you I like that but you didn't answer how do you wish to be remembered because maybe it was like totally heavy and like crazy me to ask you that no not totally heavy I like that I like any question

on this show it's what we do on here we go back and forth how do I want to be remembered I actually was thinking about this recently I was like free writing and this kind of, well, it came up because right-wing conservative guys are really obsessed with the idea of legacy, that they'll be like, they'll be like, you're leaving behind no children and no wife, you'll have no legacy. And I find it so funny because I'm like, you guys, when you die, your children will actually, they will come to know your true legacy, which is that you were hateful and you joyfully participated in the destruction of other

people's families. They will hate you in your death. Get them. And they'll spend the money that you leave them, which might end up being the only positive contribution you make to anyone's lives, they'll spend it on things you would have hated. And I find great, great joy in that. But my leg, like, what I want to be remembered for, um, I would just like, I really would just like people to say he, he tried hard and he had a good time. That's like it. I just, really? Yeah, I don't, that's really all. Oh my gosh. You really are a good person. Oh my God. Now I sound like a megalonia. No, you don't. I wouldn't be mad if yours happened for me. Like, I have to be Beethoven or I'm like, he tried hard and he had a good time.

That is so nice. Well, obviously it's going to be that. I want that. I think that'd be nice. I'm not mad if things are massively shifted. I don't, I don't not suspect that it'll be more than that. But I'm like, I would be happy with that. If they were like, he really tried hard to be a good person to make good things.

He tried hard across the board to be a good friend, to be present. And he had a good time. Like he really had fun. I think that would be enough for me. That's cool. Yeah. So it doesn't resonate with me the idea of having legacy through your children. I'm like, those people have nothing to do with me.

Yeah. Yeah. Those people aren't really my business. Literally, literally. Yeah. I want children. But I don't want my children to be my legacy. Yeah.

I feel the same way. I was pretty iffy about children until pretty much last week. When I went to my friend Toshi's house, Toshi has two beautiful lesbian moms who have a beautiful home full of happy children. And that seems like such a fantasy to just have like a happy life with a bunch of people around. But still, like what those people do is none of my business. I don't get it. Yeah.

Well. Yeah. What do you? Okay, so you've made a couple jokes about getting cast. Do you've mentioned that you want your legacy to be the like industries are shifted entirely? I see so desperate in every way. No, you don't. But I'm genuinely curious what you want.

Like what would you like out of like why are you doing all this? What do you want? Do you want to be acting more? Do you want to do you like what is the idea? I do. I want to be doing everything more. I do want to be acting more and writing more. I think, gosh, and this is so annoying too, but I think I feel like I have stuff to say

and probably like growing up or probably for most of my life, I didn't think that anyone would care about what I had to say or that I would get the chance to say it. And now that I just know it's a possibility, I'm like so desperate about it. But also, I think it's like I, it's not even that I know like what my message is that I want to get out into the world. But I do feel really hungry to dig in, like find out my ideas that I want to put on the airwaves. Yeah. Send out onto the airwaves that I want to send out frequencies on the airwaves. I like that.

And I want to be dressed by Miu Miu. That's huge. Thank you. They do the little tiny skirts. I don't know a ton about fashion, but I know that. You know, you really do. I don't know a ton about fashion, but I know that. Yeah.

Little tiny skirts. Itty bitty skirt. I like that. Why, thank you. I have a question for you. It's a big question of the show. What's so true to you? Oh.

Oh. Okay. Wait. Here we go. Let's dig in. Here we go. I think the Gen Z. millennial beef is one-sided. Between who and whom? I think that millennials have a chip on their

shoulder about Gen Z. I think that millennials feel that Gen Z has a disdain for them that's not rooted in reality. Yeah, okay. I feel like millennials have this feeling that Gen Z were like, and it's all because the TikTokers got on to the business about the skinny jeans. Who cares if you guys wear skinny jeans? But I think that millennials feel like Gen Z people look at them and we're like, ew, you're old and you're ugly and you pause. Ha ha ha, loser, you can't hang out with us. But I feel like Gen Z, we don't really have a strong cultural identity as a generation. Like what is Gen Z?

I feel like it's like totally question mark other than like pressing on phone. I think all we have are nostalgia and references. and we're like, Y2K is so cool. 90s are so cool. 80s, 70s. And so I think when we see anyone older than us,

we're like, oh my gosh, you're like, you're vintage. Like you're Y2K. You're like, you're like, throwback vibes.

You're like vintage to me. Literally like you like, like my Pinterest. Some of the old people who listen to the show are not going to like that. No, no,

you guys. I'm trying to feel to you. I'm trying to become your friend because I think, Because I think you're cool. And by the way, I want to, like, F-U-C-K-U, like, well, this is part of it, is that I'm, is there a word for people who are attracted to old people? Resbians. Thank you.

Yeah, lesbians. I'm that. Yeah, like, we look at you with, maybe not reverence, but with more positive affect than you think. Where is this idea of coming from that? millennials just really like it's like sure you're jealous because we're like tiny like we're young and we're cute no no no we're tiny I'm dead I'm free room of rights I bag I bag I bag I didn't mean to say that but

we're okay we're tiny of brain and we're tiny of age yeah I think millennials are cool yeah I think you're right though it's like because I want to date someone older yeah yeah yeah I'm like I'm going to podcast today I think millennials but I do yeah I think you're Right. I think that both sides are correct. I think like older people are always going to be a little confused by and annoyed by younger people. They're mostly correct, I feel. Like younger, like 22 year olds are by and large pretty fucking annoying. And so. But don't you think we know? Don't you think we agree? 100%. But that's what I'm saying is those people were also annoying when they were 22. I was annoying when I was 22. I'm still annoying. I bet a 45 year old hears me talk sometimes. I was like, God, I can't wait for you to get over that. And they're right. You know, like that's the thing is you. You, you, with the benefit of wisdom, you look back on the absence of wisdom and see it as what it is, which is lacking wisdom and annoying.

Yeah. And also, younger people don't think much about older people because younger people pretty much only think about themselves. But why do older people feel like younger people don't like them? That's my, that's what I take issue with. Yeah, that's a really good question. I think we like you guys. You guys. You guys.

Right. Oh, sorry. Um, if there were a millennial. If there were an older person in the room. Um, no, it's funny. I actually, I really don't know. And I don't have, uh, any genuine hangups about age. People think I do because I joke about it a lot.

I really, I really don't. I feel, that's why I feel safe to talk to you about it. I'm a safe older person to you. Mandated reporter. I'm a self. I'm a safe older person to you and that means the world to me. How old are you? I forget.

You're 24. 13. You're 25. 14 going on 25. 14 going on 13. Actually, having a 14 year old on the podcast would be kind of chic. It'd be interesting to hear their ideas. I should talk to a younger person.

We've had some older people on the show. And you know what? I can already feel that I'm doing the thing that I was talking about because you're talking about having someone younger than me. I'm like, yeah. That was supposed to be me. That might be nice to get kind of like a fresh.

voice around here. That's so funny. Do you have any, do you have any regrets? Let's just get into it. I don't know what kind of mood I'm in today, but fuck it. Do you have any regrets?

Yeah, I mean, first of all, like the part where I got a wonderful opportunity and I put my feet in the camera. Yeah. The part where I called you racist, I called your listeners racist. For sure. There's a lot of listeners to the show, probably at least a couple of them are racist.

I bet you got at least a couple of people in that. Oh, right, right. Just throw out the... That's what I love about the race car. Like, you're going to hit somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have a lot of regrets.

I wish I could go back and change a lot of the decisions I've made and a lot of the ways of acted in my life. But it's also tough because I also have such a beautiful and fabulous life. Yeah. Um, that's filled with a lot of love. And so it, it's scary to think that any, that even things I do regret could have led me to a different path. Yeah. You know, I was supposed to start men's school this year. I do know that about you. So like, Jesus, what a horror. Yeah. That would have been. That's not you. In my opinion. That's not this timeline you. Thank you. I was supposed to be a lawyer. What? You a doctor? Me, a lawyer? A power couple for sure, but. Oh yeah, that's where we started.

I do think we could give you a couple. Do you think that you could like have a beard and sell it? Sell it? Oh, but I guess that's what you did in your youth. Yeah, I don't know that I was selling it. Oh yeah, my youth. I don't know that I was selling it. I don't know that I was ever selling straight.

I don't know that anyone ever really bought it. Okay. I think everyone was just politely. It's kind of like when, you, it's kind of like when someone's super, super Christian is around, a bunch of like atheists, but they're cool mostly. Yeah. And you just kind of tolerate the delusion because you like them. That's how people were treating my straightness, I think. He's mostly cool. Sure, he's straight. Okay. Sure. Sure. Sure. You know, tolerating that. That's pretty kind. Sure. Sure. Sure.

But no, I don't think I was ever selling it. I'm the friend who's kind of Christian. No, super. I'm saying like super duper. I have plenty of friends that are kind of Christian. I'm saying like super. Like dead ass. Like, no, like being crazy There's no like gray area, like not like spiritual, but like Christian. Like everyone who's not Christian, burns in hell kind of Christians. Sheik. Sheik. I was debating wearing it, but I didn't want to turn your viewers away. You wouldn't.

I have a lot of Christian viewers. My question for you is this. When I say super Christian, I mean, do you think undeniably with certainty that people of every other faith go to hell? Yeah. No, no, no, no. See, that's what I'm talking about. I kind of don't even believe in hell. but we don't have time.

That's the line in the sand for me. You cannot believe that every other faith goes to hell. And if you do, it's all my love, you're in a cult. Bollywarks or whatever the word is. I have problem with Christianity. I like Christianity. I myself might even come back to it someday. I am just saying, to me, the big line in the sand is like,

I also don't believe in hell. The big line in the sand is if anybody of any faith believes genuinely in their heart that they are 100% correct and everyone else burns in hell for eternity, you're brainwashed and I can't be a part of it. That's like, of course. That's crazy. Of course. Do you have...

Do I have a faith? Regrets. Regrets. You're not going to like my answer. No. I don't. But that's cool because that gives me hope. Yeah.

Did you have regrets? Stop. I tried to say something nice to you people. No, I'm kidding. I love it. I love it. Um, was there a time that you had regrets that you learn to let go of?

Or you've never. had regrets all along. I think it's not to say I've never done anything incorrectly or badly. I certainly regret that. I, I, I dislike that behaviors of mine have caused undesirable outcomes, but I don't regret

anything because I haven't, I haven't majorly wronged anybody in my life. I haven't hurt anybody. I haven't ruined anyone's life. Not everyone can say that. So I wouldn't, I'm not, I don't think it's correct to have no regrets.

Wow. I'm lucky to have... After we record, can you please tell me who you're thinking of when you say that someone has ruined someone's life? Yeah, I can. But no, I don't have any regrets. I feel like everything... Like, it would be easy to look back and be like, oh, man,

I wish I would have, like, started comedy sooner or, like, not taken, you know, school so seriously when I was 20. But I really don't feel that way. I think it taught me work ethic. Because it really made you who you are today. Yeah, everything's great. I like my life. I think if you really genuinely...

present day enjoy your life. That's the tough thing. You can't have regrets. Most days I don't and I'm in so much pain. It's unimaginable. Is that true? Yeah. I'm not really sure how to engage with that, to be honest.

Because that was such an earnest and intense thing to say. Oh, yeah, sorry. What kind? No, I'm not upset with it. I like that. What kind of pain? Mental emotional pain. Mental emotional pain.

I'm kind of surprised and relieved that you don't know this about me. I'm in anguish. Yeah. Well, is it like what are we doing about it? Is there medication involved? Is there therapy? This is the year that I've... You got me, guys.

I agree we got to get a professional in the mix. Okay. Turn off the lights. Bring everyone out. My family's in the closet. Yeah. We're going to get a professional involved in my unceasing daily anguish.

All right. All right. Yeah. Okay. Jokes over. I'm going to get help. All right. Yeah.

My ceaseless pain is going to become. I'm someone else's problem. All right. All right. You got me. I'm tired of going to the loan. All I do is hurt. Anybody got options, solutions?

That is me. Okay. Oh, the therapist coming out. Oh, the therapist was pretending to be the mailman. All right. All right. Give it up for Randy, y'all. We'll be talking.

I'll sit on the little couch. All right. What's going on? I heard all the time. Oh. I love it. I genuinely think it is so deeply cool that you said that. And also,

I'd love to know what we're doing about it. Both. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's pending because I'm busy. Yeah. But something's got to be done. Something's got to be done.

Things can't go on the way that they've been going. Yeah. But that's also. I hate that I brought up the generation thing. But I think that's also Gen Z to be like, hi, good morning. I'm in despair.

Yeah. Don't you think. I don't know. I'm certain that a lot of people in Gen Z are experiencing that. Yeah. Or like the communication style of like it actually. And even the way you received it, I felt bad,

I think, for saying it because it's a bit much to burden you. No, I don't feel burdened by it at all. I think it's deeply cool. I like honesty. And I don't, I don't think it serves any.

to politely lie to a friend, especially not in this context. Yeah. Are there, are there times where that would be probably too much to share with like a total stranger maybe, but I'm your friend. I deeply care about you. Also,

the point of a show like this is to like talk about life. I think like we're engaging in conversation about life and this is something a lot of people are experiencing. But I think can you pinpoint. We have the suicide hotline number is under. Get help. Can you pinpoint like what the biggest, uh,

You know, there's so many different buckets of dread. Is it state of the world dread? Is it personal? Like, what is... Oh, see, again, you're a good person. My dread is quite selfish. That's nice. I feel hope about the world.

That's really funny. But not really about the case of Joe Sunday. That's really funny because your life is going great and the world's kind of going bad. So for you to be like, no, I think the world's going to be fine. It's me. I'm stressed out about. That's really deeply funny to me. And I like that.

Oh my gosh. What's causing you stress about Joe Sunday? Do you want to talk about it or you kind of just wanted to move on? No, no, no. We totally can talk about it. I mean, like, we're going to have to cut that. We'll just bleep it. We'll bleep it and not say what you said.

We're going to have to cut that. And let's put a little blur over the lips so no one can lip read it. I mean, yeah, that'll be part of it for sure. I'm very, very lonely. Yeah? Yeah, it's, I call it the original loneliness. I think, um, like if slash one, I myself, I do think this will be like subject line of the note. I did such a good job.

I did such a good job. Absolutely love that. If slash when, I myself, Joe. I mean, this is, the funny thing is, you're saying it out loud, but this is like most comedians. Well, of course. Isn't that the whole,

it's like we, we put on the clown makeup to cover the tears. Yeah. Yeah. We're all miserable. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah.

Okay, if you ever feel insulted by me, just remember, like, you're happy. I don't ever feel insulted by you. This is why I have the underdog complex because I'm like, whatever. Oh, yeah, the original loneliness. Like, I can't handle the idea that everything we feel at the end of the day, you have to feel up by ourselves. Do you? It's unbearable.

You can share and you can talk, but, like, it's even like when you said, Is it your, is it my problem or yours? It is my problem because as much as I want to, I can't like physically share a feeling with anybody. Right. We have to make sense of and deal with our own emotions at the end of the day. That is a- Why would you say that to me? I know.

I know. It sucks. It's a true, it's a true, like. That's too, too difficult. It's a true stumbling block, I think, in the way of a lot of us in happiness is the thing that, like, we genuinely at the end of the day, every, if you're, if you're, feeling we've ever experienced has been experienced by many other people and probably is at the exact same time. Maybe that's hope. Maybe that's hope. But the way that you deal with it personally and how you choose to move through it is like ultimately up to you. Man, it's tough. And

that part sucks. But maybe this is the kind of thing that people get into with this like therapy stuff or like the psychiatry. Okay. I think so. Yeah. I have tried therapy. And every therapist I've had is like, listen, kid, like, I've reviewed your I'm not the one. Really? Yeah. You're being turned away by mental health professionals? I don't think they should be allowed to do that.

I had no idea it was an option. But it is, and yeah, my situation is pretty dire. Yeah. Yeah. How many, genuinely how many therapists have you been turned away from? Three. Three? Yeah.

It's not a lot. It's not a lot. There's a lot of therapists out there in the world. Three is biblical. Three's crazy. I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not going to lie to you. Three is a bigger number than zero.

I'm not going to hold you on that. Hey, things aren't perfect. Things aren't perfect. But it's not enough to give up. I'll tell you that. Three is a bigger number than zero. Hey, Caleb. Yes, ma'am.

JK, JK, JK, JK. No, we can find someone. Three is a huge number. Three is bigger than one or two. Three is a huge number. But, yeah, we basically have no choice. Like, we got to try again. We will try again.

Can I help? Do you want to send me? And it's the self-sufficiency thing. That it's like, this is the year. I'm kind of accepting help. Yeah. Send me your insurance information. Well, that's the thing.

have insurance? How do you sign up for that stuff? Okay. Okay. That is a huge part of it. You have insurance through your union. If you don't already, you will soon. Bragg, brag, brag, brag. Yeah, basically, I figured out how to get on. I was on Medicaid for a year and I got about beep, beep, beep, number of UTIs. Boom, I was getting those antibiotics. Boom, I was drinking them up. And then, yeah, I have to sign up for this union health insurance. So I have really good news for you. Okay. And this is a, thing to be excited about. Union insurance is incredible. It's good. I'm so excited. I'm going to have appointments

down. I went from having no insurance. I'm going to go nail salon to the doctor salon. Right. I don't I do not know if it covers nails. I haven't checked. No, no, no, but I'll cover my nails. You're just saying, okay, okay, okay. Just checking. And then I'm seeing the sleep doctor, mental health doctor, the back doctor, the knee

doctor, the endocrine doc, all the doctors are going to be seeing me. I did appointment. I went crazy on appointments when I got union health insurance. Because I didn't have any before. I was like really neglecting things. Do you feel comfortable to disclose what was the medical intervention that helped you the most? That made that like, yeah. Helped me the most.

Or just like. The most concerning was my teeth. I really had cavities that I was not dealing with because I was so broke. That makes so much sense. And they hurt and I was poor. The dentist is so scary. They're scary, difficult and expensive. They're so mad at you and so mean.

I'm still. You know who's great though? Fixing it. Say it. Orthodontist. What? I've never been. I had adult braces for six years.

Did you? Yeah. I've got a tooth that could come forward. This one, he's pushed back. I'm not going to do anything about it, but they would if I let them. I like him.

I think it has character. That's completely hot. They would fix him if they could. Two supermodels who have that tooth structure. Yeah. I got a couple other fucked up things too. These guys are a little weird.

But my teeth were, they were never ugly. They were just like hurting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Proof of life. Proof of life. Weird teeth. Yeah, I like weird teeth.

I like weird teeth, I like weird faces. I think it's helpful as an actor. I'll never get work on my face ever in my entire life. I like being expressive. I'm not worried about wrinkles. I think they'll be good for me. But I do... You are...

Well, I think almost everyone looks hotter as they age and you in particular, oh my God, I'm seeing you a bit older. And I think we aren't going to date when you're older. Can I tell you something? What? I look at pictures of myself when I was 19 and picture myself now.

and I go, Hugh, you are so lucky, brother. I look so much better already than I did when I was 19. I mean,

I bet you were adorable and like porcelain. I was like cute or whatever, but like, and now I'm looking, I'm looking at myself the last like year or so and I'm going,

hey brother. I do think with, truly with everyone, but especially with like boys or masculine people, time just helps. Yeah. Just get a bit of weathering.

There's a bit of a shaping that goes on. It doesn't help everybody, though. I've seen some people go through a rough situation. Okay. I've seen twink death is real. I've seen some twigs go through trouble. Because at first it's cute.

You know, you're 21 and you're like the cutest guy on campus. You get to 32 all of a sudden, gaunt. Gant. It doesn't go better for everyone. It gets better campaign should have had a tagline for some of you. Yeah, it should be like, it gets better, but like, get some Botox just in case. It gets better, but hey, I can't say. Yeah, it gets, it gets better, but Tretton, no one is there, is available.

Everybody's beautiful. Just kidding. Do you know, did you ever watch flavor of love? Of course I did. Okay, good, good, good. I love that. There's this line where New York, it's the penultimate episode of season two. New York is talking about, who is a girl that says, oh, what's her name?

I can't remember, but she's Goldie. No, yeah, Goldie Goldie, the one who says, Did everyone try the chicken? I thought the chicken was lovely. Yeah. It's New York versus Goldie. Yeah. And New York is like kind of shocked that Goldie has made it so far.

And she says about, like she says that Goldie is cute. But she says cute next to gorgeous. Gorgeous is, you know, going to devour cute. Yeah. I love that line. And I love that by the way, Goldie, it wasn't Goldie that microwave the chicken. Goldie was making fun of. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was Hottie who microwave the chicken. Hotty microwave the chicken. And Goldie was like, hottie. A full chicken in the microwave. But don't you think that Hottie? Where is Hottie, by the way? Because don't you think that woman is a genius? Don't you think she knew she was being hilarious?

I don't know. I would have to talk to her more. Because if she knew and she was doing like performance art, then I think she's one of the most brilliant minds alive. Yeah. But I do think there are people who have microwave a chicken. And I don't know which one she was. Because I don't know her.

I just really feel like... Maybe this is like my feminist campaign that when a woman does something and we laugh, I want to air on the side of, I'm like, autore theory. I would love to. Because she had so, she had so many, she had so many other moments. Like she was the one who said,

everyone tells her she looks like Beyonce. Beyonce, Beyonce, Beyonce, Beyonce, I am so sorry than an ugly bitch like this would even say some shit like that. Oh, I forgot about that far. You look like Luther Vandross. Yeah, I was there. I was there.

I was there. I was there. But I caught it. As soon as I was, of age. I caught it on YouTube. I think New York's a genius. That clear as day. That's undeniable. That clear as day. Tiffany Polard. Is that how I say it? Tiffany New York Pollard. God, I love you. You made me. You made me. You made so many of us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's, she is foundational text. Genius. Yeah. She's everything. Her, Nini. And it's crazy.

They wrote, well, the internet is dead now and memes and such are. dead, but for as long as they lived, it was written by those like four women. Like, it was New York, Nini Leaks, the white lady from, well, Kim from season one of Real Housewives of Atlanta, and maybe like Deirdre or like one other person, like the whole internet, like I really think like, like 85% of memes were of these women. It's not resonating what I'm saying. No, I just I know Nini to me I can only agree with because I've seen the memes and the outcome.

I've never seen any Real Housewives episode. So I don't know anything about Real Housewives. Nini broke through. She's in a different status fear to me. So I don't know about, I don't know who Deirdre is. I don't know who Kim is. Okay, no words, no worries. But I would like to.

This was my observation is I spent a couple years on the internet. I loved memes. I love Jifs. It was really, really in that. And I had also never watched Real Halfswives. And then maybe like two years ago, I watched, even the first episode,

but like the first season of Real Housewives of Atlanta, every me, it's, you know, people are like watching the Mona Lisa being painted. Like every meme on the internet is from this one season of this specific show. You think that they're from the years and the years,

but I swear it's all Real Housewives of Atlanta season one. Yeah. There's something to be said about our culture going from Real Housewives of Atlanta being the thing to Real Housewives of Salt Lake City being the thing. and I'm not liking the shift. And like I said, never seen either of them. Race the fascism on to that. But let's just look at what that means along with what's happening with our government and take a peek at that.

Someone needs to do a paper. I haven't seen these SLC ladies. I bet there's a college student out there right now drafting it. I want to see it. I want to be in touch with them. I want to see it bad. Yeah. I want to see it bad bad.

What are you watching? I want, when I answer this question, I want you guys to know. It's so loaded. I'm so sorry. I want you guys to know that this. I know how. I sound and I'm not this guy but I don't watch reality TV

everyone hates that about me I watch me that's okay that's okay that's okay I watch I watch documentaries oh great great great great and I watch movies come on and I feel bad that I don't watch I wish I watched more garbage because I know that's in vogue right now

wait I I presented a false image of myself as someone I think reality TV is really cool I don't watch a lot of it when I say this I'm not I'm not I'm not defending myself to you I don't feel the need to defend myself to my friend Joe I'm defending myself to the many many listeners

many big show. Wait, what are we called again? The Truthers? Truthers. K-leberties, K-lesbians. K-Latinas are a growing faction. Cool. The Klatinas are becoming more and more vocal. Kaltinas. And I love, and I thank you, Klatinas.

Thank you for being here. What about the Kaysians? I haven't heard much from the Kaysians. Okay. But I would really love to hear from y'all. Cajuns if you're out there. Really any group that identifies as a supporter of Caleb, I want to hear from them.

I'm trying to think we could be like I was going to say something like so offensive. Like I was trying to mix Caleb and like black people, but it was going to come out like so just like Jim Crow and wrong. Yeah, I don't think it's obviously my place. I felt pretty comfortable starting Kayla K-Leberties. That was where that's the contribution I gave to the. I know I wanted to give you one,

but I was going to say like the K-Blackies or something. But it was like. That's exactly what I was. That's so crazy. No, I don't know what it would be. I guess black, black Caleb fans, let me know. Do you know that surely somebody in this room knows the demographic makeup of your

listeners? Oh, not by number, but it's a whole bunch of women. Yeah. It's a lot of women. Great. Most I would say, we touched on some womenly topics. I would say seven, probably 65, 70% women. That's a number that I'm like pretty sure of. Yeah. Yeah. Um, more straight guys than you would think. White women question mark or we don't know about. I don't know racial makeup. Uh, based on who approaches me, it's a pretty even mix of, like, racial background. Cool. More straight guys than you would think. More straight guys than I'm comfortable with.

Shout out to you, boys, but I am surprised that you're here and I don't really know. I don't know what's doing it for you, but I'm so glad that you're here. I hope that we're all learning something. Unfortunately, like my best, well, I have a lot of best friends, but like my best fucking friend is a straight guy. Really? I would never. I don't, there's not a single straight guy that I respect. there's not one straight guy that I hang out with respect or like not one but that that's a green

flag to me that's principal oh I see I see I'm a lot of straight guy friends you're bullying you're bullying I'm bullying chance and also a bunch of other people I love very much I'm sorry I'm my closest friends are a delightful community well can I I'm gonna say something that I think is hack and I'm sorry that I'm truly just arriving at this now chance is straight Caleb Caleb is gay chance Oh Think about that Well chance and I have known each other

Since we were 17 years old I know So we have Of course you would morph Like Brad Pitt and his girlfriends We have been in the trenches We have been in the trenches Um

Asian Caleb fans Please let me know if you like Asians If you don't That's no worries We would love to hear from you Black Caleb fans I love you deeply But I could also be

Couldn't Cajians be for like black people from the south? Yeah, that's really smart. Yeah, that's really, really smart. I hate puns. Or not really, but I hate, I don't like when a joke hinges on the fact that a word sounds like another word

or a word could be misunderstood for another word. I think that's cheap. Yeah. I'm really, I'm kind of into it. Really? No, I said the wrong thing. I said the wrong thing at all. Okay.

I think it's interesting that you don't like it. But Kay Leopardy's... I'm not explaining it well. Like, I do like, like, like Jane had this joke where she was like, my name's Tamara, I'll tell you tomorrow. I thought that was adorable and really,

really made me laugh. But I don't like when a joke is like, oh, like people are always doing, oh, fuck, I can't remember, but they're like, oh, people are all, oh, I'm being mean for no reason. People are always doing a joke where the word melatonin sounds like melanin. Yeah.

They're always doing a joke where they're like, someone like gave me melatonin, but I thought I was going to like, wake up African American or something. I'm like, me if you're still editing my next hour crossing things out. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.

Yeah, that joke sucks. That's why you don't like it. Right, I think it's probably just one. That joke sucks. I hate that joke. Wait, you were saying something interesting. Oh, and I was remembering I have something interesting to ask you. Go ahead.

Well, let's say yours because I'm remembering mine. Oh, I was just saying black Caleb fans, please let us know what you'd like your fan name to be. Oh, I remember mine. Say. Who is your ideal audience member? Adeal audience member. Or actually it's two questions.

Like one, when you're writing, when you're writing, is there a person you have in mind who you're writing for? And does that person match with who your dream audience member is? Like the person you actually want to be watching your staff coming to your shows,

etc. I genuinely try as hard as I can. when I'm writing not to think about the audience at all. I try so hard to remove them from it entirely. Are you thinking about yourself? Yeah. You're writing with the man in the mirror. Yeah, I'm thinking, what do I think is funny?

What am I genuinely trying to say? What is the point? Do I think this is acceptable? Yeah. It is a very hard practice and I'm not saying that I accomplish it, but that is what I'm trying to do. Cool, cool, cool, cool. I am most, I will say,

black audiences are the most discerning about comedy. They're tough. And white comics... Because black people are so funny. Black people are so funny. And black people also... I feel that... I feel that black people,

black audiences specifically, they don't do pity. They give it to you when you've earned it and they don't when you don't. Seriously. And white audiences really do pity. Yeah, yeah. And I don't want pity.

I want to be really, really good. Yeah, yeah. So when I make a black audience laugh or an audience that has more black people in it or if I'm looking at an audience and I see, you know, like as is the case that a lot of, of Brooklyn venues. If I see 300 white people and six black people,

I'm performing for, I'm mostly looking at the six black people. Yeah. Because if I'm making the black audience members genuinely laugh, that's real. It counts. Then I know that I can trust it. If I'm making like, you know, I don't know, a lot of, a lot of white audiences really do just give pity laughs. And I'm like, I'm not interested in that. I want to be genuinely good. So I genuinely do really appreciate when a, when a black person finds me funny. Um, but I, have a lot of white fans and I am genuinely grateful that they come and find me funny as well. But I would say like, yeah, I think there is a tendency towards like, I mean, yeah, like white lies,

like polite, like there's a tendency towards politeness that I'm just not really interested in. So I would say that. And is there any element to, like I'm thinking about how, you know on Wii slash Wii sports resort, or you know on Wii, the Nintendo Wii, you would make a me. Yeah. And thinking about how, for some reason, through my entire childhood, all my me's were white. How are we going to reconcile this? What are we going to do about that?

What are we going to do about that? Is there anything to you, when you're thinking about your ideal audience member, is there anything to the question of, like, does that person match you? Is that person like a gay person from Missouri? Or are they someone totally different? No, I don't think of an ideal audience member, really. I like... Cool.

Like I said, I would like to kill in rooms that I think are difficult to kill it. That's what I would like the most. I think, and I also think white comics know this, by the way. I think a lot of white comics don't perform in black rooms because they know that it won't go well. And so I think this is a known fact and what you do about it is your business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even this is something that's kind of a question for me. Because it's also like, well, do you, like, I wonder if maybe there's something that,

to be said for something that I'm that I like about the state of comedy today is that Jesus Christ, I'm sorry to be giving my, no one asked for my opinion about the state of comedy. I did. Okay. Oh, there just are so many comedy fans

and so it can be cool to find your niche and maybe some people, like is, is it good? Like if you don't kill in certain rooms, is it good to be like, okay, well like those seller people aren't my business anyway or should you still really go forward and try. No, I'm not interested in performing at the seller or the store, not because of the audiences necessarily, but because I don't like the way they do biz, I don't care.

Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to come and like, they ask me to perform at the comedy store in L.A. They're like, come and do our like, come and work your way up and do our potluck. And I'm like, I sell out. Work your way up to you. I sell out rooms three times the size of that room. I don't need to work my way up. Crazy.

That's so funny. But that's the thing is I'm like, that's that, do whatever you want. I don't care. I don't care. And also, if I bombed in front of a room of like Midtown tourists, would I care? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's the thing is you have to be, you have to believe in your thing regardless. But some comics, yeah, their thing doesn't work in a lot of rooms and they don't care.

They're like anti-comedy comics. And I think they're, I really laugh at those sets and enjoy them. It's not what I want to do, but I think it's awesome. I hear you. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm a little more with you on this.

Yeah. Yeah. I would like, I would like to get laughs. but yeah I think it's cool when people have a different way of doing it I think the fun thing about comedy and the times I feel most like honored and excited to be part of like the comedy world is when there's a lineup with people who do it all very differently and I get to watch everybody and be like oh fuck I love when I could never do

what Sarah Squirm does I could never do what Chris Fleming does I could never do oh my God you're making my dream lineup I'm like getting hot in my pants yeah the first time I'm like the first time I'm her on a lineup, I was like, I don't have access. Saunders, yes? Yes. Yes. I don't have access to what she does. Completely. Don't need it. I do what I do. Yeah. But it's fun to watch lineups where you're like... Who's gonna make this line? Me. My next show.

Boom. Here we go. Come on. Can I ask you another comedy question? Oh, but finish your thought. That's it. I just love it. I just love when it's different. Yes. Is laughter your God? And I can explain what I mean by that or you can take it or you can take it as you hear it. Explain what you mean because I'm interested. Okay. Well, it's a bit shaking. I don't think it'll come across as shady and whoever would take it that way, it won't be listening to this anyway.

I was talk. There was a comic who I felt, oh, here I go. There was a comp, okay, I'll be vague, I'll be vague. There was a comic, I don't even like the word comic. There was a comedian. There was a clown whose jokes I felt were harmful. I really didn't like them. I really took issue.

But they were getting a lot of traction online and it shows. And I met this person and they asked them like, why do you do that? Like, do you really believe that stuff? Do you really dislike XYZ category of person? And that person's response was so interesting. They were like, no, I roll with all kinds of people. I don't care at all. I just say that stuff because it gets the reaction I want.

It just gets the audience, just gets me the sound of like. laughter than I need. And to me, that is laughter is your God. That's the central thing is just like, what can I say to get the sound of laughter? Whereas other people, like, I'm such a big fan of, like, Jacqueline Novak, I feel like her God is like, maybe like the idea or like the narrative maybe something like that. So I'm curious for you. Where do you stand?

I phrase this question differently for myself, but when you explained it, I understood it as a question that I have asked myself. I think every comedian has to ask themselves this question in some way at some point. If you've been doing it for long enough, you have to decide. The way I ask it is, do you want to be funny more than you want to be anything? And the answer is no. I want to be a good person more than I want to be anything. And I want to be funny really, really, really badly. and I don't actually, me personally, I don't actually disrespect people who want to be funny more than they want to be anything.

There are comics I like who. I think I don't quite either. I don't care. I'm like, good for you. I'm like, go nuts. If I don't like the joke, I'm like, whatever. If you want to be funny more than you want to be anything, do I think that's going to lead you to like a spiritually happy, good content place? Do I think that's going to lead to a necessarily good life?

No. That's why I'm not doing it. But I want to be a good person more than I want to be anything. And then in a very close second, I want to be funny really badly. But it matters. Yeah, yeah. I'm assuming that you are not in the camp of laughter as God. No, and I think it's to my detriment.

That's interesting. I think I'm a little bit too nerdy about comedy. I think I spend too much time thinking what's really the truth here, what can I find. and what can I twist. It's like it's not a master's thesis. Yeah. Tell a fucking joke. That's a really,

really interesting point. I do that a lot. Like I will oftentimes be testing a joke where I'm trying to do way too much. Yeah. And then I... I think that's something I've noticed as like kind of a poison rising up

in Brooklyn comedy a little bit. Yeah. And honey, I've been poisoned before. Like a stand-up set that's an essay. Yeah. I, yeah. I've noticed,

myself doing that before. You've been poisoned. Me too. I'm poisoned all the time. Yeah. And then you draw it back and it's way funnier. Yeah. Well, Joe, we have one last thing for you. We're almost done. We have a segment for you. Oh, man. I'm going to miss you. Oh, gosh. It sucks that we can never talk again after this. I hate that. We should take that out of the contract. The grief will, the grief will consume me. And we'll talk off camera about some stuff. Oh.

Therapy and all that. Are you ready? We're going to play a true false segment. Okay. I'm going to read you 15 statements. You're going to tell me as quickly as you can if what I just said was true or false. Okay. Joe, if you get 10 or more correct, we're going to give you 50 U.S. dollars. Boom. Are you ready? Lunch.

The Houston Texans have won two Super Bowls. False. False. Zero. Rebecca Black's song Friday came out on a Thursday. True. True. The way you're telling me the answer right away is totally messing with me.

Ants don't have lungs. True. True. The first credit card was invented in 1915. True. False, 1950. Ah, that's what I thought. Okay.

Ghana has the seventh largest population among African countries. Did you put that for me? I didn't write them. I won't lie to you. Ghana has the seventh, I mean, that's like, that's, seventh largest isn't anything. Come on. False.

False 13th. Point Nemo is the farthest place from land on earth. Okay. Is it like, do you have a house there? Sorry, I just start to stop doing, Giltoni to in response the question. I don't freaking know. False. True. It takes two years for a single pineapple to grow fully.

True. True. Portland, Oregon was almost named Boston, Oregon. True. True. Trees have been on earth longer than sharks. False. False. False. Goats have rectangular pupils. False. True. The mascot for the University of Chicago is Marty the Maroon. L.O.L. False? Because I think it's a Phoenix. False. It's Phil the Phoenix. SpongeBob, SquarePants, and Squidward are voiced by the same actor. Oh, man, I wish I knew. False. False.

The guy who invented Pringles had his ashes buried in a Pringles can. Probably true, sicko. True. Camodo dragons have opposable thumbs. These are such fun facts. True, because I think that's how they do them in the cartoons. Yeah, false. Last one.

The first Avatar movie has made more money than Avatar 2. True. True. How'd she do? 11. Yeah, let's go. Winna, winna, winna! Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hey, proud of you. Great job on the game. I thank you. Hey, Joe, is there anything you want to tell people where they can find you, et cetera? Oh. Yeah, my Instagram is joe. Dot loft rice, like the food. And you can see me in the credits.

It goes by quicker than you can imagine. in the credits of a certain TV show that airs every Saturday night. It's MSNBC. MSNBC. You write for MSNBC. MSNBC. Thanks so much for being on. We love you.

Thanks for doing it. Oh, my God. I love you so much. Thank you, guys. We did it. Thank you.