So True with Caleb Hearon - Justin Tranter Wakes Up Applauding

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

Welcome back! This week’s guest is the immensely talented Justin Tranter! Justin and Caleb talk coming out stories, the early days of making money online, co-writing songs like Good Luck, Babe! with Chappell Roan, Centuries with Fall Out Boy, AI, and much more! Join our Patreon for an exclusive extended interview with Justin and other bonus content! https://patreon.com/SoTruePodcast?utm_medium=unknown&utm_source=join_link&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator&utm_content=copyLink  Follow Justin! @tranterjustinFollow the show! @sooootruepod Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud Book now at www.Booking.com ! There’s no replacement for human connection. Better with people. Better with Alma. Visit www.helloalma.com/SOTRUE to get started and schedule a free consultation today.Exclusive $35-off Carver Mat at www.AuraFrames.com. Promo Code SOTRUE Go to www.hims.com/SOTRUE for your personalized ED treatment options. Go to https://www.Zocdoc.com/SOTRUE to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. Go to www.worldwildlife.org/earthhour to browse a list of activities, choose your action, and spend an hour giving back to nature.About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1  » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum  » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum So True is a Headgum podcast, created and hosted by Caleb Hearon. The show is produced by Chance Nichols with Associate Producer Allie Kahan and Executive Producer Emma Foley. So True is engineered by Casey Donahue and engineered and edited by Nicole Lyons. Kaiti Moos is our VP of Content at Headgum. Thanks to Luke Rogers for our show art and Virginia Muller our social media manager.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's a lot of McDonald's for not a lot of money. Prices and participation may vary. Mcdouble meal $6 in some markets for a limited time only. What's so true to you today? Justin, you are just dead set on turning this whole show around on me. And I've just about had it. But stop booking fans on your show., it's just gonna happen. I can't it's good for my ego We've been working on this one for a minute, I know we've been working on this one for a minute I haven't seen you in so long. It's been a while. You've been avoiding me like the plague

It's been a while. You've been avoiding me like the plague. Couldn't you move it across the country? Sure. That's not my fault. Yeah. My big thing is to move away sort of unannounced and then blame people for not seeing me. Fair. Do you like that?

I think, I mean I do. It's kind of chic. Drama. Yeah, it's kind of chic. We're both dressed in all black, the New York uniform. We didn't even coordinate. Those shoes are really cute. Aren't they so dumb?

What are they? Who are like sexy clown shoes? I really like them. Yeah. Thank you. They're very chic Thank you. You have great taste in shoes. I I I like things you do like things like I like nice things Well when you write hit songs you can have nice shoes You can write hit songs, you can have nice shoes. I don't know what to say. Facts are facts, America. I don't know what to say, America. All of America listens to this podcast, by the way.

So you're gonna be hearing from America about the shoes. Yeah, I can't wait. What have you been up to? What's up with you lately? I've just been working a lot, which is so fun. I think pop music's gotten really fun again. Yeah, it's back. I make pop songs for anyone who's confused

why I'm talking about pop music being fun. Yeah, pop music got really, really fun. And obviously with co-writing Good Luck Babe, like people who never thought I was cool think I'm cool. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? People are really coming around on Justin, huh? Yeah, artists who are like,

aren't you the guy who wrote Believer by Imagine Dragons? We don't really wanna talk to you. A hit song that people loved, by the way way. I mean my parents got to retire early because of it. Let's be honest. But Chapel I think opened up some cooler doors so I'm working on like some really fun stuff that I never got to work on before so that's good. You've got a type. You love a Missouri girl. I love Jake Wesley Rogers, Chapel, me, you. You can't get enough of a Missouri girl. Well, I'm from Illinois, so I'm like, we're topping you endlessly.

Yeah, and thank God. And thank God to be topped by Illinoisan. It's just what you need. It's healthy. Everyone needs an Illinois top in their life. Yeah, friendly, but aggressive. Yeah, but gets the job done. To quote Chappell's new song.

To quote Chappell, by the way. You are from Illinois, and then you went to like, what was the music school you went to in Chicago? The Chicago Academy for the Arts. Yeah, you went to like an arts school. And like a fame, but like the Midwestern version, which means like less money, less academics. But the best school in the world changed my life. Now they have really serious academics, which confuses me every time I go to visit.

I'm like, wait, so you all can read now? Cause that's weird. We were just sort of gay and doing makeup when I was here. Literally. Actually just like riding trains, doing makeup, singing songs and calling that an education. Yeah. Tell me about little Justin.

I wish I knew you then, but I didn't. an education. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about little Justin. I wish I knew you then, but I didn't. Really gay. Yeah. Really, just luckily was like, being hor, before I got to the Chicago County for the Arts where I was not bullied at all, I was like, if there was like a prom queen, that was me. Yeah.

But before that, like bullied beyond belief, but luckily, born with the disposition of like, y'all are gonna be so mad. You're gonna regret that. Being put in a locker being like, okay, but you're gonna regret this. Actually, no, there was a moment, I think this is funny, please feel free to laugh.

There was like five girls who decided they hated me and they like circled me on the playground and pushed me to the ground and it all started kicking me. And the whole time I was like, oh my god, you bitches are so dumb. You're like dodging kicks, you're like, I'm gonna have a Grammy. I'm gonna have... Like, I'm gonna be so rich. That is so funny.

So even though like it was horrible every day, I like literally was like, I'm so fierce. So Little Me was really fun Lots of makeup, which you know, I came out in 1994 In the Midwest because I'm old as shit. That's crazy. Yeah, I'm 44. So like I'm 1994 is nuts. It was Not smart. It was it wasn't it wasn't I guess it was good for my heart But not good for like my bruising, you know what I mean? It was definitely not the smartest choice looking back, but I had a blast.

So in 1994, you're how old? 14. You're 14 and you just, you're like, I'm gay to everybody. Gay as fuck. Come right out. Yeah, but then also like, remember it's 94, so like you kiss a boy and you're convinced you're gonna die. Yeah. Of a horrible disease. Yeah, but then also like remember it's 94. So like you kiss avoid and you're convinced you're gonna die Yeah of a horrible disease. So the big one the big one

So it was also really interesting time to be like no I'm gonna come out and like start hooking up with boys now But then every time have a severe panic attack that I was dead. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I had that when I started hooking up with guys in 20 When I hooked up with a guy for the first time in like 2010, 2011? Wow. And I was still having the same fear. I was like, I didn't, of course I didn't know

how any of that worked. I was just like, I'm gonna get a disease and die and go to hell. It was really intense even then, so I can't imagine 94. Yeah, my mom likes to bring up, she's like, oh you are like, what's the thing when you're like, are afraid of hypochondriac, thank you. And I'm like, no, mom, I was just a gay kid in the 90s.

Like, I'm not a hypochondriac. I just, like, that was what happened to us. It was a very specific time and a very limited amount of information. Yeah. Yeah. So 94, you come out as gay at 14. And are you at the Chicago Arts Academy by then? Not yet, like about to be.

So, you're at some random public high school. Yes, Lake Zurich High School, a terrible place. Go like, docks the whole Lake Zurich school system. Lake Zurich school system, you are on notice, bitch. You are on notice, bitch. So, you're there. Yep. And then, how do you get to the cool art school? So I had a friend from theater camp, of course,

Sammy Simkin, legend. She had blonde hair way past her ass. She was so glamorous. I really wanted to be here. She still has the blonde hair past her ass. She's not giving it up, and I don't think she should. She was going there, and I really wanted to go and my parents were like, oh, but putting like a 14 year old on the train

for an hour to school in an hour home every day seems unsafe. And then Legzirk school system got very unsafe. And they were like, let's put you on a train. The train sounds pretty good. The train sounds amazing. So then I got to transfer halfway through freshman year of high school.

So cool of your parents. My parents are unbelievable. They live down the street. They moved here in COVID. And they are the funniest people. They're like a comedy duo. They're not professionally. They're tennis coaches professionally.

But they are like a full-time comedy duo. And I was really lucky to be born to them That's really sweet. Yeah, I love them. Yeah, I'm assuming I'll get to hang out like a good amount. We play hearts Yeah card game. We play hearts at least twice a week. Oh, they hang out It's really beautiful. Yeah, well you have such a beautiful It's so nice to know that you have such a lovely birth family because you have such a beautiful chosen family. Thank you.

The people you put together, I've only gotten to be around your group of people a couple times, but I just was like, yeah, this makes so much sense. You're such a warm, lovely person and you have such warmth and love around you. Thank you. You've written so many hit songs.

You've written so many big songs. And I am a fan of absolutely all of them because I just love you. But what, how do you? Some of absolutely all of them because I just love you. But what, okay. How do you, some of them are trash but I like you. No, I'm telling you if you, I have yet to hear a song of yours that I didn't like and if you put out one that wasn't working for me sonically I'd be there anyway because I'm loving Justin.

Thank you. Hasn't happened yet but I know that it could at any moment. Thank you. At any moment. On your toes. On your toes, be careful in the studio. Okay, so I'm interested in how we get to the hits. So you're at the Arts High School in Chicago.

And then from there you go to a Berklee School of Music in Boston. Correct. Tell me what happens there. Why do you choose Berklee and how is Boston for you? So I started writing songs in like junior year of high school, but I still really wanted to just be like Bernadette Peters. Like I still was convinced that I would be something in Annie in some revival on Broadway. And I applied to six schools for musical theater and one for songwriting and I got rejected to all six.

I swear on my life. They're like, we've seen a million kids like you. and I got rejected to all six. I swear in my life. We've seen a million kids like you. Literally, we've seen like a million 17 year old with clear braces and blue eyeshadow. Please. No, but then I sent in like a three song cassette tape to Berkeley College of Music with songs that I had written

and got in there. Do you still have that cassette tape? I don't. I really wish I did. I wish I could get my hands on that thing. I want to hear that. It's not going to be good, but I'll never forget, one teacher said, Yeah, your songs aren't good, but we love the passion.

No, but that's taste. Like, people used to have taste. I feel like so many people now because of the internet, so many of the tastemakers that are supposed to have, like, they're supposed to, the only talent that they're supposed to have taste. Yeah. I feel like so many people now because of the internet, so many of the tastemakers that are supposed to have, like they're supposed to, the only talent that they're supposed to have as the gatekeepers is to see people that are developmental and go, you're not good yet, but I see the passion. I see the vision. I see a possibility for you. Yeah. And because of the internet, so much of that has gone away. And now all that a lot of those gatekeepers can see in my view is follower count. Yeah. And follower count has taken over for taste. Yeah. And so the

ability to listen to three songs on a cassette that maybe weren't that good and go, no this person has something. Yeah. And we could actually make them good at it. I think that's getting lost a little bit. I agree. I think that in some ways like gatekeepers are good. Yeah No, I'm on board. Yeah When they have taste and when they want to actually do the work to help you get better exactly and and like there's also like of course because even though I don't want it to be a lot of my for you pages is pop music because I engage with With it and then you just get all these like 23 year old

homosexuals who are convinced that they like they know What the single should have been? They know like how the record could have been mixed better and I'm like you Literally don't know anything So I think gatekeeping has gone wrong in many because now that there's people pretending to be gatekeepers who aren't So I think gatekeeping has gone wrong in many, because now there's people pretending to be gatekeepers who aren't, who have no taste. They just have a phone. Yeah, and they have the ability to see how many Instagram followers someone has.

And it's not that that's not important, that's totally important in the ecosystem that we're in. But yeah, to be a gatekeeper, I feel like you should have some level of taste and desire to find people when their thing is still being figured out and help them realize the fullest vision of it. That version of gatekeeping is just like nice. It's really nice. That's actually cool and helpful and good. That's like help.

Yeah. That's interesting. So you go to Berkeley. Go to Berkeley, like really wanting to do, so then I'm like, okay, that's it. I would never do a musical. Duh, why would I ever wanna do a musical? They just like completely deleted it from my history

and was like, I'm gonna be like a male Tori Amos meets Ani DeFranco. Thank you, thank you for the gasp. I appreciate it. I gasped, by the way, was the gasp male or? You said, I'm gonna be male. Oh, god. Horrified shrieking, glass shatters in the distance.

Kicked out of the studio, interview over. Mike thrown, Mike unplugged. So I went on that journey for a minute. It was very funny, thank you. Went on that journey and then moved to New York, was doing like a singer-songwriter thing. I had a night at Sidewalk Cafe, which was sort of like the home for like anti-folk at the time. Like Regina Spektor came out of

Sidewalk Cafe, like some really amazing music. And I'd had a night there every Sunday called Justin Tranter's Flaming Sundays, which was named for me by the straight man that ran the venue. But I kind of was like, I'm okay with it. I'm fucking with it. I'm okay with it. You know what? Broken clock twice a day, et cetera. Yeah, so then the singer-songwriter thing kind of ran its course and I was like, let me just start a crazy glam band. And is this Semi-Precious Weapons?

Semi-Precious Weapons. Yeah. And started a crazy glam band where I wore no pants and six inch heels and would do cartwheels and barely sing, but it changed my life. A lyric, I can't pay my rent, but I'm fucking gorgeous, is how I paid my rent for like a good seven years. So you, How to Semi-Precious,

you're doing Justin's flaming Sundays, Justin Tranger's flaming Sundays, which bring that back by the way. Yeah, yeah, so you how does semi-precious you're doing Justin's flaming Sundays Justin Tranger's flaming Sundays Which bring that back by the way? Yeah done And then how do you start semi-precious weapons like what is how does that begin? I just like was like I need I want to do something. I was you know being like the Tory Amos, Ani DeFranco Carbon copy, but way worse, so not carbon at all, just what's worse than carbon. And I was like, it wasn't very fun. I was like taking myself way too seriously. So just like, I wanna have fun and be ridiculous.

And so just called three people that I knew. I was like, hey, you're in my band now. It's called Standing Press Weapons, like let's rehearse on Tuesday. And that was literally how I started it. Stop it. Yeah, I just like domed a bunch of straight boys and told them like, this rehearse on Tuesday. Yeah. And that was literally how I started it. Stop it. Yeah, I just like domed a bunch of straight boys and told them like, this is what's happening.

Well, clear though that at this point, you must be very good at music even at this point to call three people and go, you're in my band. And they go, yeah, we are. Yeah. Yeah, we are in your band. Very good at music or like they're just really determined. And I think that like a lot of people who play instruments

are not determined. Like they're determined to be very good at their instrument, but like it's not a very outward skill. It's a very inward skill. So I think whether they thought I was good or not, it was just someone telling them what to do. And also delusional, like we're gonna be famous in like two months.

And we weren't ever famous in like two months. Yeah. And we weren't ever famous. You know we were a band for 10 years and not famous at all but it got all of us in the business and we all have now very different successful jobs in the music business just not as the band. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting and also the determination piece of it I think I sometimes you know I

have a lot of friends who do all kinds of different artistic things like we all do. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, I have a lot of friends who do all kinds of different artistic things like we all do. Yeah. And I get a little frustrated sometimes by people who are talented but not determined. Where I'm like, you are so good, all you have to do is lock in a little bit. Care. If you would lock in a little bit, I can't care more than you do. Yep.

And if you would lock in a little bit, you could have the things you want. Yeah. And it drives me fucking crazy. But it used to drive me crazy forever. And then I realized, talent is so important. But wanting to succeed is exhausting. And if that's not for that person, then fuck it. Because it is like, not to sound cheesy,

but the amount of rejection that is required to succeed is not for everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard. And the band started in early internet days, but it was still enough, early social media days, MySpace and blah, blah, blah. You still get, it was really funny to watch my band members like experience homophobia Because everyone just assumed because they were in my band and I'm in full makeup and heels

That they must be gay too. So like getting comments of like like a bunch of slurs that I won't say but like for them Was really interesting to watch like straight men be like, oh This isn't fun. Yeah. Yeah. How did they handle that? Like that's really interesting. Did y'all ever have like talks about it?

Or like, was it just something you were putting up with kind of like, this is part of it? Yeah, kind of. I mean, they're all really wonderful and I still talk to them all at least twice a week. And one of them is like, I make music with all the time in pop music, but yeah, they just kind of like rolled with it but it was definitely like they were all pretty enlightened elevated individuals but yet to watch I

was so used to it that I just thought it was funny I've been called this is actually not new to me this is not new new at all. And for them to be like, oh, wait, people might not like our music because they assume we're all fucking. To watch even people who consider themselves very progressive, to when they find out my band members were straight, they were in genuine shock. But how?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you guys, you're on a bus together. They're with you. Yeah. I'm like, but how? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you guys, you're on a bus together. They're with you. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah. You, well, you talked about the like early my space and stuff of it all. Did you feel at that time? I mean, obviously as like an artist now, I, I'm just acutely aware that there's no career without the internet. Yeah. It's everything. Yeah. Unfortunately, I find that unfortunate. But, and so you're trying to squeeze in these other things. It's like you're trying to make the

live show great because you care about the quality of it, but really as long as the internet stuff goes well, that's the job. And did you feel that starting to happen back then? Did it feel like your music had to hit on MySpace for it to? It was such a beautiful gift. We could sell out not crazy tickets, but we could sell anywhere from 500 to 1,500 tickets in almost every city because of MySpace. That's nuts. So I thought MySpace was amazing.

I was having a blast on MySpace. I was like, and I also like MySpace, there was a certain part of MySpace that just loved male bodied people in makeup, and that worked great for me. I loved it. I understand that social media can be exhausting when you're trying to also like perfect the important parts of your art, but I always, what a gift.

That like, I could show up to the pageant in St. Louis and sold it out from fucking MySpace. Also 500 tickets, I think sometimes when you've been doing it for a little bit and you're playing bigger venues or artists that you work with are selling out, I have friends doing stadiums or whatever, that shit's crazy, but 500 tickets in any given city

in the United States, that is really, really hard to do. That's a huge accomplishment. And it was also, and you just comment back to kids and they get excited, and the top eight was really fun. For anyone who's old enough to remember MySpace, top eight was when Kate Moss put us in her top eight, we're like, that's it, we're famous. Wait, Kate Moss could put your band in her top eight?

Yeah, so there was an everyone's MySpace page. You could pick like, these are my favorite eight friends. Yeah. On MySpace. Right. And so like we were in. But it shows it to everyone? Everyone would see it.

Stop. Yeah. That's drama. Stop. That's drama. But it was like half the time it was people you didn't actually know. It was like, you know, Tequila Slade.

What? What? What? What? What? You know, before we knew she was a Nazi. You know what I mean? It was like, I mean, she wasn't in my top eight.

Just wanted to go on record. Hey, hey. Or like, yeah, so people could put you other MySpace names that I will not mention, would put us in their top eight and it would be really exciting. And you would like literally message, hey, like let's both top eight each other. Let's both top each other for the week. You're doing top eight trades? Literally, you would.

This is crazy. And it would be amazing. And then like the lyric I mentioned before, I can't pay my rent, but I'm fucking gorgeous. The amount of people, it was the first lyric in the song and whatever you picked as your profile song, if people went to your page, it would play the first 30 seconds of that song.

Oh. And so since I can't pay my rent, but I'm fucking gorgeous was the first line of the song, it was in that first 30 seconds and it changed my life. So T-shirts, when we were like, even before we were selling 500 tickets everywhere, we had T-shirts at Hot Topic, we had T-shirts at Urban Outfitters, we were knocked off by Spencer's gifts and I like had to like send a cease and desist. So MySpace was really, I get it, social media is exhausting, but like also what a beautiful gift that people can hear your comedy or your music sitting in their creepy bedroom.

You know what I mean? Like that's amazing to me. So I always thought, I loved that when I started my band that MySpace existed. It was like such a gift. I think it is a gift to people who care about process. Like I think you're someone who cares about process and makes great work. I find it hard because some people that don't care about process and haven't spent a long time, you studied music for so long and went to school for it and figured out what you don't have to do. But you really learned, I think, how to make great music. And putting out good quality.

Yeah. And I give a fuck about comedy and really care about my stuff being good. But the internet does have an unfortunate side to it as all things do where people who don't care about process and aren't putting Out good work do get elevated. Yeah, and that's just an unfortunate part of it But I think overall it is net positive and well in there But there was always some version of someone getting elevated who didn't deserve it right this is always this is not new It's just a new version. I think I think because we can see

who didn't deserve it. Right. That's not new. This is not new. It's just a new version. I think because we can see the nuts and bolts of it so easily on social media that it feels new, but there's always been some version of someone with a record deal who had no business having a record deal. That's never not happened.

I have a question for you. Talking about process, how much do you think of how great you are? It's true though. Like when like you're like, I was actually, even though I know you, I was still like, I don't really get nervous. I like normally haven't been nervous since the nineties, but I was actually nervous to do this because I'm such a fan of what you do.

Justin. So my question for you is like, how much do you think is like your natural gift of just being really clever? And how much is that process of like creating greatness? Oh God, creating greatness. I think I feel that the people in my family are so funny, and I feel that I was born in very funny circumstances.

Being born poor, fat, and gay in Missouri is just like something was gonna have to happen. You know what I mean? Something's gotta give. Something's gonna have to give, yeah. It was like I was either gonna be funny or closeted or dead. Something's gonna have to give, yeah. It was like I was either gonna be funny or closeted or dead. Like something was gonna have to,

something was gonna have to go some way. And I'm glad it went funny, obviously, but like. Yeah, it's like. At least dead's easy. Dead's easy. It's calm. And I'm holding on to the fact that that will happen eventually.

I'm like, that's just gonna happen on its own. I don't even have to do it. That's, you know, in your early 20s, you maybe get for a little bit, and then you go, it's gonna sort itself, baby. I don't even have to do it. That's you. You know, in your early twenties, you maybe get for a little bit and then you go, it's gonna sort itself, baby. Relax, trust, trust. It'll come around. It gets so obsessed. I don't know if this happened to you, but in my early twenties, I got so obsessed with myself and I was like, it's gonna do it on its own. You're like,

you're like reinventing the wheel. Um, I luckily cannot relate to that. Thank God. But I will say, now I'm just sometimes I just get so exhausted. Yeah, doing nothing? But I'm like, oh, like just a really long sleep, aka death sounds so cute. I'm saying. It's just like easy.

When I conquered my fear, most of my ideation when I was young was actually a fear of death and a fear that I was going to die in Missouri without ever getting to go out and experience the world and be openly, and these are not things that I was processing at the time, but I look back and go like, yeah, you were afraid of death because you weren't living the life you wanted to live. And so now part of how I conquered my fear of death was just a lot of different things

about like fulfilling my own desires to be who I actually was meant to be, to be out and to live in different places and to do all this fun stuff and be creative. But then another part of it was kind of that thing where I'm like, yeah, I used to be really scared of flying on planes and now when the turbulence gets bad I go, there's a bunch of stuff next week you won't have to do. I mean, hey, if this goes down, that meeting you don't want to do, guess who's not going? And there is a piece of that that does bring me comfort. But no, I like being alive, I'm keeping it that way as long as I can, I'm kind of addicted to it at the moment.

But work versus, yeah, I think I was lucky to be, all the things I would have changed about myself as a kid, I would have you know wanted to be thin and straight and You know maybe live somewhere cooler than Missouri or whatever. Yeah, or have money not be so poor All those things I'm so glad that none of those things happen because they're the best things about my point of view Yeah, and the way I see the world and the most useful things about me. Yeah, but I work really really really fucking hard Yeah, I work really hard. I write I write jokes Like it matters. I work really hard on my live shows. I really give a shit about I have a real fear of people paying for a ticket to come and see me and Not feeling like I cared

Like I never ever ever want someone to leave a show of mine feeling like I didn't understand how crazy it is For a working person to pay for that to pay for that yeah a Person who works for a living which is most people yeah to spend 75 80 100 sometimes more dollars to come and then even maybe even crazier to come spend their night with you right that They might only get a night off a couple times a year Yeah, where they don't have the kids or they take off from work and they get a babysitter, they rent a car. That is, I don't know, when I look at an audience, I think about all the sacrifices people made to be there.

There are people who found a different way to pay rent that month because they wanted to come to your show. And so that was what fuels me working hard on the stuff even though I kind of don't have to anymore. You could stop working hard at a certain point. You know what I mean? People will come to a certain extent. If I played a certain size of venue, it'll probably sell right now.

Yeah. You know? But it really does trip me out and it's extremely not heavy, but I just think about that a lot. Yeah. This episode is sponsored by our friends at Aura Frames. Mother's Day is upon us, folks. Don't get caught buying the same old gifts this year like sweaters, candles, or heaven forbid another bathrobe. Your mother deserves better than all that. Named

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that's ridiculously right for you. Find exactly what you're booking for on Booking.com. Booking.yeah. That feels crazy to me. Yeah. What about you? I mean, I think like to do anything creative, there is like the natural gift has to be there

Yeah, but at least for me I've met songwriters who it is just a hundred percent natural and it's so beautiful and shocking to watch for me It I do like really geek out over rhyme structure over melodic math over like how if you change one note in that chord it could fully like Change how that lyric feels completely like I really can geek out like pretty big time for me story comes first and like the story Just has to be really good and clear But then I can get pretty geeky in the the craft around it like and really enjoyed going I mean having it I loved getting a degree in songwriting like I actually I loved

The geeky side of it. I think it's fun. I think so. I also, I don't have near the knowledge that you do or the expertise, but I love, when I love a song, I love turning it over in my head and being like, this is why I like this part and this is, I think it's, yeah, I think if anything, I have a skill, if I have any talent in life, it is that I think I understand people. I do think I'm good at people. I understand what most people want from me

in a given moment. I understand if I'm in a room with a very conservative, heterosexual farmer, I kinda know what they want from me as much as I know what a trans barista wants from me. I just know, I know what people like to hear. I can feel things with people. And some people have that kind of skill with like numbers or any other thing that would make them good

at something else. But this is, I think if I'm good at this thing, it's because I understand people. And if I understand people, it's because I grew up the way that I did. Closeted in Missouri, you kind of understand what people want from you. When did you come out?

I came out in, I came out, well, I kind of got, I kind of got, people want from you. When did you come out? I came out In I came out while I kind of got I kind of got outed I got outed in high school glamorous I know by a guy I was hooking up with and then I came out publicly my freshman year of college So that would have been like 2013 Wow, yeah when I was 18 I came out to my mom when she dropped me off. 18 is not crazy though That's not yeah, if I totally I felt fine about it. I came out as bisexual Fab when she dropped me off. 18 is not crazy though. That's not, yeah. If I told her, I felt fine about it. I came out as bisexual. Fabulous. Which is not true.

And, but it felt nice at the time to be like, who knows guys? You know? And then I think after that, I just kind of, well what I did was, my mom dropped me off at college at my dorm and I told her that day. And she was like, you know, she was like suspected. And then pretty much everyone I met at college, if it would come up, I would just be like, oh know, she was like suspected. And then pretty much ever when I met at college,

if it would come up, I would just be like, oh yeah, I'm queer. And I just kind of let it go that way. Chance, we met in college. Did I come out to you as gay when we met? No, you were still, you were being very aloof about it. I remember we were eating at the Union Club one day with a bunch of like Fijians and people.

And you were like, we're looking at your phone and you laugh to yourself. We were like, what? You're like, someone on Twitter is like being like, I think Caleb Heron's bi. And I was like, who knows? Think about that, ruminate, ruminate. I'm looking at faces being like, what do we think?

What do we think? What do we think? Yeah, that is so funny. Yeah, but it just kind of happened after that. Then everyone just kind of assumed It was never a surprise to anybody. I don't think yeah, but I was always Still I'm very grateful that how like really gay obviously gay I am Yeah

Cuz friends of mine who like have to come out to new people because they might be straight passing that seems fucking boring and exhausting Yeah, having to come out like every time you meet someone. Yeah. Oh Our people thinking you're straight. That's embarrassing. First of all humiliating. Oh, it's happened to me a couple times People that just like see me on the street and think I'm straight. I'm like, come on. Yeah, what else do I need to like? What do I need to do? Yeah, I'm being as gay as I can be. Yeah, I don't know Sometimes it's when I talk about football though that gets them. Yeah, I think I'm straight Yeah, when I when I see clips of you talking about sports, it does confuse me Yeah, it does you and everyone else honey does it is. Oh, I actually have a bone to pick with you

I was I was searching your clips on tik-tok last night. Yeah, and When you were talking to the Queen Jensen who I worship, yeah You I think it was Jensen but someone you were talking to and you said, someone tried to set me up with a 37 year old. A 37 year old? Yikes, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. What am I gonna do, take them to their doctor's appointments?

Well. You said that. Tell me that you don't have doctor's appointments. Well, I will say, I am wearing a heart monitor right now. Because, I am wearing a heart monitor right now. Because... Tell me right now that you're not going to the doctor. I literally have to go to the cardiologist.

Like my heart is... everything's fine. I'm not dying. But like I am. So actually never mind. I take this back. You're... I don't have a bone to pick with you. You're right. If we dated you would have to take me to the cardiologist. I would have to take you to the cardiologist,

and maybe I would do it. Well, but I think you already said on the internet you're not taking people to their appointments. I'll take you to the cardiologist, this is me. Honey, get in. Go get in the car. I was like, 37 is too old. But then again, how old are you?

I just turned 30. Just turned 30. 37 is not happening. It's not. It's not. I did that. That was a throwaway joke. And Justin, you're kidding.

People got so mad at me. Wait, actually mad? People got so mad at me. Oh, I thought it was hysterical. People really, it's funny. People, I get in trouble on the internet a lot, but one of the times I get in the most trouble is if I ever express a dating preference.

Now, this one happened to be a joke, but if I ever express a dating preference, we had a clip one time that blew up of me talking about, I said something so benign, I said like, yeah, if I go on a date with somebody, I date a lot, and I said if I go on a date with somebody and I ask them like five questions in a row and they don't ask me any questions back, I'm leaving the date. Which is so baseline respecting yourself, thousands of comments with tens of thousands of likes on each of them being like, I don't know if he really has the right to be picky. Oh, they hate it.

Seeing a fat person express dignity and self-respect in dating and sex, they short-circuit. They can't imagine it. They're like, why would he be on a date in the first place? I thought he was supposed to be in the little cave where they keep job at the hut. What is he doing? What is he doing out on a gay date? Where are Lois and the kids? They hate it.

They hate it. They get so mad. And the 37 year old, people were in the comments on that clip being like, this guy will be lucky if he makes it to 37 I was like we'll see we'll see yeah, I wasn't actually angry I thought I thought it was quite funny, and I but then I let my head is oh you must be like 25 of a 37 year old is terrifying you no. I'm just ridiculous No no no I would totally date a 37 year

old it just depends. Yeah. We'll have to see. Yeah. If you want to set me up with people set me up. I mean I've never really as we discussed before you started filming and recording I don't date. Yeah. I'm the least I should never set anybody up. I think dating is insane. I think relationships are insane. Someone sleeping in your bed is crazy. That part is hard. Like I did, I was like single for 10 years and I did like date someone last year and he's lovely and no shade to him. But like you have to go sleep in the guest room. Like you cannot, there's a guest room. Yeah. We're lucky enough to have a guest room. Yeah. You need to go there. Yeah. My dog sleeps in the, I just know. Yeah. You need to go there.

My dog sleeps in the bed. Just know, compromising how you fall asleep and wake up is crazy to me. Yeah. I have a real hard time with it. I had a no sleepover rule with hookups for a very long time. And then you like somebody and they start sleeping over. And I actually kind of have gotten into it.

But sleeping is the hardest part for me. Where I'm like, sleeping is so specific to me. Having someone in the bed is like a real, it's tough. Yeah. That I, you said something to me before we started recording to the effect of, to the effect of I can't be dating, I have to work. Yeah. That was like the tone of the no dating.

Well, I just like, I love my job. I want to write minimum like eight songs a week. And like if an artist is late, which happens quite frequently, very grateful for every pop star who's ever written with me. But I would say like a good 50% of them are always like two hours late. That's crazy to me.

And so like, it's just, I can't plan a date. Because because if so-and-so is gonna be four hours late the date is cancelled because I'm writing that song with whatever The pop star may be I'm not going to a fucking date. Yeah So I just I would much rather work than date. Like what are we gonna do like learn about each other? What are we gonna do hold each other into old age? Like, who cares? I have friends for that. I know it, I know it. I have friends and they already know me. So then we can just like make fun of people.

You know what I mean? We don't have to. We don't. Have to like talk about our feelings and like, you know, like what, why are you traumatized? I don't care. I would just. Why are you traumatized? I don't care. I find this very surprising coming from you.

I would imagine you as a romantic. In my twenties, I was so romantic. Yeah. What happened? Who hurt you? Name them, because I'm going to get them. Many people. No, I think I, well, I just had the very common, I was only attracted to people who I thought needed to be saved.

And even though they never asked me to save them, I'd be like, here's a new job. You can live in with me, move in. You can hang out with my friends who are wonderful. Always, here's all my friends. And then when I realized that that's what I was doing, I was like, oh I think I probably should take a step. If I can only get turned on

If I'm like saving someone who didn't ask to be saved that's bad. Yeah, that's not good Yeah, so then I took a break from dating intentionally and then my career started working And so then when I would try to date when I had to like cancel the second date 12 times because of work not because I was being shady. I was just like this is I just can't do this anymore Yeah, and then it was it was the right choice for me I have a real a rule that I had to establish for myself in the last couple of years is if you don't have a warm lovely life that you're happy with on your own you cannot join mine yeah I cannot be the reason that you have friends I cannot be the reason that you have put so much pressure on the relationship yeah like

if I break up with you then you don't have any friends. Yeah. And that is like, that's too much pressure on a relationship. And it's just, you have work to do. You have, you need to build a life that you're happy with because I want to also be a part of yours. If you're only integrating into my life, then it's a very masturbatory thing that we're doing. Yeah. Where you're only meeting my friends, you're only hearing my stories, you're only coming to my events. It's like, that's not reciprocal, that's not a relationship. And why don't you have any friends?

It begs the question. It's like, what has occurred where? Yeah. It's a little, yeah. So I just stopped dating and it was great for me. Yeah. And now you're not doing it. Yeah. I just, no joke, can't imagine it. That is so funny to me. Yeah. Cause I just think you'd be so good at it. Marriage? You'd be great.

A legal document? You'd be a great, you'd be a great spouse. I mean, I like, I think I pride myself on being a very good friend. I'm a very good child to my parents. Yeah. Like I love being a good person. Yeah.

But I just don't want to do that with like a romantic partner. I really love that. Yeah. It surprises person, but I just don't want to do that with a romantic partner. I really love that. It surprises me, but I think if you know that about yourself, that's fantastic. And I don't need fuel for my songs because my songs are not about me. My songs are always about the artist and what they're going through. So I don't need to create drama in my life to write about because I don't write about my own life anymore.

The artist will bring it two hours late. Yeah, two hours late. Well, and then they're like for the most part, not always, but a lot of times they're younger, right? So those feelings are so much more raw and like I mean when I was in my 20s, I would write a song because I had to. It was like, oh my god, he did this to me and if I don't write about it, I'm gonna die. I don't I think the happier you get and the more mature you get you kind of lose that like anger hopefully. Hopefully the older you get the less angry you get. So I don't need like bad relationships to fuel my art anymore which is good a good thing. I feel that way sometimes when I and this is no shade to anybody but I feel that

way sometimes when I hear successful people talking about their haters, you know? People that doubted them. I go, of course it's gonna crush your mind every once in a while, but when it becomes a repetitive, constant line of talking for you, I'm like, oh, I want you to not think about them anymore.

I want you to, it's one thing to have it be a throwaway to just be like, oh yeah, a lot of people doubted me as a fact, or a lot of people were mean to me about my art as a fact But when it's a constant kind of pathological bringing up of people who didn't believe in you I'm like well, what about the people who did yeah, maybe it's better to talk about them Yeah, and maybe that would be more exciting. Yeah, when was the last time you need to go to a doctor? But you pushed it off you made an excuse like it'll heal on its own or I'm too busy or maybe I don't even know which Doctor to go to I think we've all been Booking a doctor appointment can just feel so daunting, but thanks

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All you have to do to participate is pledge to spend an hour doing one of a variety of actions and activities with a positive environmental impact. Whether you're interested in food, guilty. Um, fitness, the arts, sustainability, entertainment, or the outdoors. We are calling on you to spend an hour reconnecting with and giving back to our planet. Help us meet our goal of 125,000 hours of collective action giving back to nature. Together, we are building a positive environmental movement reminding us that individual actions can lead to big change. You can commit to an hour or more enjoying a book outside,

visiting an exhibit or museum focused on the environment, or even watching one of the free films from the DC Environmental Film Festival. There are activities for whatever interests you most. Go to worldwildlife.org slash earth hour to browse a list of activities, choose your action and spend an hour giving back to nature. How did you, how did you go from, you're doing semi-precious weapons. You're killing on my

space. You're in Kate Moss's top eight. I mean, for God's sake. What more do I need? There's t-shirts at Spencer's. We're sending the cease and desist. What, how do you bridge into this fabulous life you have now where you're writing hits for all these big musicians? How does that jump happen? So the jump was another out of necessity. So just like I left musical theater because everyone told me not to do it,

when I was dropped from the fourth record deal, when Same Pressed Weapons was dropped from our fourth record deal, so when the fourth label was like, you should stop, I was like, I guess I'll stop. And it wasn't out of defeat. It was out of like, I'm 33. Touring is really exhausting. And the thought of going to get a fifth record deal and dealing with a fifth executive and a like, I couldn't, I guess that is defeat, but it didn't feel like defeat. It felt like a really beautiful pivot.

Sometimes when you realize the reality of your goals, your goals change. And if the goal, if the heart of the goal is to just make music and get paid for it, I don't need to be egotistical and go, but if I'm not singing it, if my face isn't on the single cover, then that wasn't the dream.

Because if that was the only dream, then I should just be a reality TV star. Which is, again, some people are really good at reality TV, it's not shade, but my dream was to make music and get paid for it. So if I'm going to pivot to writing songs for other people, at least I'm still making music. And so the band had a publishing deal, like, you know, because someone has to publish your song so they can go and collect the money that you deserve as a songwriter.

So there already was a publishing deal. So I just said to my publishers, like, could you put me, I'm pretty sure we're about to get dropped. We hadn't been dropped from the fourth record deal yet, but they had taken our name off of epic records had taken our name off their website So I was like, well, I think that means we're dropped. Hey, it doesn't look good. Y'all Even though no one's called us yet. I do have the internet. I'm pretty sure this is over I'm reading into some small things, which is that on the website they crossed our name out

It would be easier to delete it, but they kind of drew through it with marker somehow. And so I said, could you put me in sessions to write songs with and for other people? And that they did, and I just said yes to any session that they offered. And I was broke as fuck, had just moved to LA, still don't know how to drive So like getting to sessions all over the city if you don't know LA, it's really hard to navigate the city without a car

So it was like what get like started if a session was at 1 p.m I was leaving at like 9 a.m. To get there because it was deep valley whatever so just went for it and like the The I didn't know this at the time, but I was probably writing 30 songs a month at that point and after three months of all of those songs, like of 90 songs, being like, no, no, no, no, no, I was like, oh my God, I'm terrible at this. Maybe I should convince the band that we should book another tour or something. But then Kelly Clarkson cut a song, maybe my 91st song that I had written in that era of writing for other people, Kelly Clarkson cut. And I was like, oh my God, thank God.

I just didn't understand that side of the business very well. Now that I know this side of the business very well, getting my first cut in three months is crazy. Yeah, you're like, actually. Now that I know, I'm like, oh, I slayed. Yeah. Like that. Oh, I'm actually super human. Yeah.

I guess I'm really good at this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then, because it was 90 notes. And that's like from big executives. And you're like, oh my god, if they didn't like that song, they're never going to listen to another song I ever write. They're going to see my name on it and be like, that's delete. big executives and you're like, oh my god, if they didn't like that song, they're never gonna listen to another song I ever write they're gonna see my name on and be like that delete, you know I mean like I really thought the anyway, so Kelly Clarkson cut a song and

Then it was like, okay, maybe this is like happening. This is going and now how does that work? By the way for dumb people like me like yeah I know Kelly Clarkson cut the song but did did you were you in the room with her writing it, or did you write something and send it to her team? Wrote something and send it to her team. Gotcha. And it was also a big sort of like epiphany in that moment, because it was the first song I had written for someone to pitch, for someone else,

not for my band to sing. It was the first song I had written hoping someone else was gonna sing that I actually liked. Oh, yeah. I was like, the first 90 songs I was chasing chasing chasing like it was like the DJ era where like half of every pop song was like a DJ. Every other hit was a DJ song so I was like trying to do like those big like and I worship Sia this is not a cut to Sia she's one of

the greatest songwriters of all time but like you know titanium chandelier like big like I'll just everything will be like one crazy word and we'll just like write everything. Like I was just chasing. It wasn't being myself at all. So the first song that ever got cut was a song that like I actually liked and I would like listen to on purpose. Um, and so it's like, Oh, okay. So me being like from a glam punk band and a weird theater kid and like, I never liked mainstream pop music. I only ever liked like the weird girls of the 90s and like me writing from that perspective

is what's actually gonna work. And then I still took a lot of work and I still work really hard to this day but the sort of floodgates open from that moment and the Kelly song hadn't even come out yet. She got pregnant. The album got pushed like a year and a half. It was just my confidence, I think, of knowing, oh wait, I wrote something. And I worship Kelly Clarkson as well. Same. So my first cut is like one of my favorite singers of all time. Like Miss Since You've Been Gone wants my song. This is awesome. And then it also freed me creatively of I wasn't thinking about what am I going to wear when I sing this? What cartwheel am I going to do during the guitar solo? It just took me out of thinking

about myself and just putting the song first. I wasn't even writing it for Kelly Clarkson. I just wrote a song that I loved and it found a home that I was very proud of. And then my first hit was Fall Out Boy Centuries, which is so funny because it became a huge hit because it was the theme song for college football that year. For me. For a person like you. That's just a dream. That's a dream.

And I actually wrote it, the lyric, You'll Remember Me For Centuries, it came to me while watching a Marsha P. Johnson documentary on YouTube. I swear, I swear on my life. Justin, this means the world to me. This means the world to me. So like, all of these football people are like going crazy. You will remember me for certain.

Marsha P. Johnson looking down over them. Yeah, from the heavens. Yeah, it's a Marsha P. Johnson theme song is a football anthem. What year was Sentries? It was like came out in the fall of 2014. Yeah, I remember it having a big moment and I think my high school football team, I was in college by then, but I think my high school

football team might have been posting like Facebook like hit clips to it. Like truly like using it as like the soundtrack of like highlight reels. Yeah it was in that, that, the Kelly Clarkson cut changed my life privately. Yeah. And the Fall Out Boys centuries, the football song changed it publicly. The football song. That is so, it also just speaks to something that I, we were just talking to Fortune, do you know Fortune Feimster? I mean, I've met her once or twice and I worship her.

She's one of the funniest people around. Don't, I wish I knew her. I wish we were friends, but I of course know who you're talking about. That dinner needs to happen. Done. But we were talking yesterday about this thing that I'm just constantly reminded of,

which is like the best way to be succeeding is to have succeeded. And you have to just get, that's why it's so hard and people are like, I just need a break, I just need a chance. And it's true. And like getting Kelly to cut that song is like, yeah, whether it was, I just need a chance, and it's true. And getting Kelly to cut that song is like, yeah, whether it was, it's sometimes hard to say

whether it's internal or external, is it people talking about the fact that you had a success, is it just you knowing and moving through the world like you've had a success? But whatever it is, I think you have to get a bunch of breaks in a successful creative career, especially now. But that first big one that's really something,

it is like, it kind of makes all the other things move in a row after it. And who knows if it's internal or external or what, but that is the thing is you just need a really good win and then you're kind of winning because you've won. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, and I think it is internal and external. It's like knowing, okay, I'm not crazy. I'm good enough to do this. Even if the world, no one's heard the song yet, no one's, whatever job someone booked and the world has no clue you booked the job,

it's knowing internally, I'm not crazy. I actually deserve to do this. And then when it does become external, I think it hopefully gives you the confidence to keep going. Some people, the external success terrifies them and they feel, it makes them very insecure. I luckily was not that person. Insecurity didn't enter the picture. I was like, tell me more. Which song do you like? Tell me more.

So then you start doing that. And then so what is a session in this, if this question sucks, we can cut it, but what is it?'s interesting to me, because I'm such a fan of you and what you do, and you know that. But what does a session look like? An artist says, I want to do a session with Justin Tranter because I have taste and ears. And then what does it look like? Do you usually do it at your house?

How do you start it? Yeah, I have a lot of producers and writers work out of their houses. Because I have a publishing company of writers and producers signed to me, I love them, but I don't want them in my house. Yeah, so it's facet. Yeah, facet.

There's records and publishing. I love them. I just don't need 22 year olds in my house until 2AM. That's just not my vibe. So I have a studio in West Hollywood. Do you know, I shouldn't say where it is. I almost said where it was. Yeah.

So basically here's the code to the front door. Actually, it's a really funny story where it is, but that's why I was about to tell it, but I'm not gonna tell it, because that'd be really bad, I'll tell you later. But so yeah, you come to my studio and we normally just talk. And I just like talk for at least minimum half

an hour hopefully an hour to just like figure out where the person is at. Are you taking notes or you just like locked in? We're just chatting. I will take mental notes and then if someone says something that is so good I will be like I'm so sorry I have to pause because that's probably our song title and I don't want to forget it. Normally it's just like, let me see where you're at and I will then when we're done talking be like, you know, when you said this thing 20 minutes ago, I think that's a really great song. they have to answer the same 12 questions about this song for the whole six months they're promoting it. If it's a hit, they have to answer it for the rest of their life. They have to sing it for the rest of their life if it's a hit.

I want them to really feel like it's theirs. So, I mean, a lot of artists, of course, are great co-writers. Chabal Rhone's one of the greatest songwriters ever. When I'm writing with her, that is a real songwriter. But even the, the writers who, the artists who aren't great songwriters, I still want them to feel like it's their song. Like that they came to me for a reason, cause I'm going to listen to them and I

care about whatever's happening in their life. If it's sad, if it's fun, if it's happy, if it's sexy, I want them to be like this was my snapshot of this moment in my life. So we just talk for a while and sometimes I will just turn exactly what they said into a lyric. My favorite story for that is when I worked with the chicks and there's a song called sleep at night. Yeah and I mean this is all in them song so I'm not spilling any tea, but Queen Natalie just said My husband's

girlfriend's husband Just called me how fucked up is that? And I was like, well, that entire, don't touch that. Don't touch that, that's it. And I will find a melody that goes with every, I'm not changing a syllable of what you just said, cause that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. And it's just in the song.

So, you know, she's someone who's always put her life, like diary entry in the song, you know? But even with artists who aren't used to that, I really want them to have that experience. And so, like I said, even if it's like fun and goofy, you know, like Cake by the Ocean, which is one of my favorite songs I've ever co-written, like in that moment, that was Joe Jonas' truth.

He's fucking hot as shit and he's really goofy. Like, it was like, and we spent three days trying to be serious and like, he just wasn't, he was really happy in that moment in his life. And like, that's what we needed to write. It was time for a happy, silly write. It was time for a happy silly song. It was time for a sex song where we just talked about food the whole time. Yeah. Yeah. And so I love that's my favorite part of the process is like let me get you to your truth.

Even if your truth is caked by the ocean, I'm going to get you there. Hell yeah. Yeah. And Gaslighter, you wrote two or three songs on that record, right? I think four. Four. Yeah, and I'm selling you short Yeah, four. I love I mean the chicks are like my North Star. That's like my yeah, Natalie Maynes I just adore them. Yeah and have my whole life because also I think they exhibit something that the music is incredible I've always loved even as a kid listening to the chicks albums. I like this is fucking good yeah there's upbeat they're slow and sad it's beautiful her voice is amazing the lyrics are incredible and but then also just the like her just the way they talked about like body image and the way they talked about them in the press yeah her political stand obviously with the whole George Bush and

the Iraq war thing like the whole thing, I just was like, yeah. I really respect these people as true, genuine artists who live in the real world that we live in. And then also the work is incredible, which is great. I mean, they're just so, and it's also one of those moments, watching her sing in the studio this far away from me, you're like, oh, that's just your voice. Yeah, you can sing like that.

That sound just comes out of your face. Did she go to Berkeley as well? I think she went to Berkeley briefly. Most people, because most people go to Berkeley are so talented, they don't stay. Right. I think the dropout rate is something crazy, like 85%. That's almost like a selling point.

It's like, come here, and if you're good, you'll drop out. Now, I graduated. But I got my degree. Yeah. But I went ahead and got my degree. I mean, my dad went into like a serious amount of credit card debt to put me through like the first couple years of Berkeley. So the thought of like, being like, actually, I'm going to New York because I'm fierce. Like I just couldn't do that to him. Yeah. You know, I just couldn't. Like, like it like ruined his credits to this day. Also, a not small number of people

probably drop out of Berkeley thinking that they're the next big thing and it turns out to be a huge mistake. It's not a surefire game to play. Exactly. But yeah, I know that's like Natalie, that's just her voice. Like Christina Aguilera, that's just her voice.

Gwen Stefani, that's just her voice. Brittany, that's just her fucking voice. She's not putting on the sexy Brittany voice. No, that's just how she sings. Those moments for me are always like, wow, this is my job. I'm sure you're, at least at this point, in Good Luck Babe having been out for as long as it is, you're probably a little tired of talking about it. No, it's my, it's, for many reasons I'm not tired of talking about it, because one, it's my, it's, um... For many reasons, I'm not tired talking about it, because one, it's like, I think my favorite song

of my entire career. And two, it helped launch, like, the first... ever pop star who started their career out of the closet. That's never happened before. Like, we've never had a pop star who started it from major label release number one was out of the club. That's never happened before. And three, it's like, puts it like, I'm like a full decade of having hits, which I do not

take for granted at all. It's like to be this gay in a really bro-y business, like really bro-y. I still get shocked to this day of how bro-y the music business is. Having success for 10 years, I do not take lightly at all. So I'm never tired of talking about good luck, babe. Well, there's a lot of chapel fans, myself included, who will probably be listening to

this and I'm wondering if we could talk for just a second about how Good Luck Babe happened. What is the process that you and Chapel went through to end up on just what is arguably one of the best songs of at least the last decade, if not ever? Very, very sweet. So we had already written together a couple times. We did a song called My Kink is Karma. We wrote that like nine months before we wrote Good Luck Babe. So we already had a vibe and like, like she's saying at like a charity concert I was throwing

into my backyard. You know, we had like gone to a couple parties here. So we were we were friends. And so it was a really actually and I just told Kim Petrus's story, me and Dan Nigro were supposed to had a session booked told Kim Petrus this story, me and Dan Nigro were supposed to had a session booked with Kim Petrus for that day. And because the Kim Sam Smith song was going so crazy, she had to like fly somewhere to do more promo for that for unholy one of the best songs ever. So Dan just texted me like, Hey, I don't know if you heard yet, but like Kim is can't be there tomorrow. Should Kaylee just come? And I was like, hey, I don't know if you heard yet, but Kim can't be there tomorrow,

should Kaylee just come? And I was like, yeah, anytime I can write with Chappell, that's fucking amazing, I'll tell Kaylee to be there. And so we have Kim Petras to thank for getting too famous. For- Shout out Kim, for real. Shout out Kim.

Shout out Kim, for real. So yeah, we just got in the room, and Chappell and Dan Nigro do everything together. Literally, like every song she's released in this new era of Chappell has been. So the two of them really have a thing. And I'm just lucky to be sort of like the third for the day to spice up the relationship.

I come in, I cause a little drama. But she just was telling me about a very personal story in her life, which I think so many queer people can relate to, but actually everyone can, of being like, I know this motherfucker is in love with me and they just can't, they can't deal with it. Which I think straight people feel all the time, but for queer people it's a whole other level. Because if the person that you know is in love with you is not out yet or not out to themselves yet or wherever,

then the stakes are just way higher. Yeah, being into someone always will end up meaning something for you logistically, but if you think that you're straight and you're into someone who would challenge that, now it also means something about you. About, yes. Which is a different thing.

It's a very different thing. So that was it. She just was telling me what was going on with this woman in her life and we just started writing and you know, it's one of the, a lot of times in sessions, you'll, in writing sessions, you'll say things like, you know, not this, but like the idea of like, you know, like you'd have to stop the world to stop the feeling. Yeah. Like, and then we're like, Oh, actually, let's just say that. I think I think probably 70% of the times I go, not this, but something that means this.

And then you actually just say the thing that you were like, don't say that you're actually know, let's just say that. That's how most great, I feel like, stories get broken or jokes happen in writers' rooms is that a team full of TV writers, someone will be like, okay, this is house numbers or this is bad pitch or this is ballpark. They'll be like, this is the bad pitch version

and then they say something that ends up just being the thing. The thing, yeah. It's like, it like eases everyone's like, hey, don't worry, we don't have to commit to this, but what if it was this? It does something, it's kind of interesting in that same way where it almost like

put everyone's minds at ease to see if they could accept it as a thing. Well, I also feel like for myself, when I'm saying the qualifier before I say the thing, until I actually say it out loud, once I hear it out loud, I'm like, oh no, that is fierce. Yeah, I'm sure that works. That actually has worked.

So you're qualifying it for yourself too. Cause you're like, until I hear these words come out of my mouth, I don't know if they're actually good. Accidentally fierce on purpose. 100%. The Justin Tranter story. Yeah. Okay, yeah, so then yeah, you're just,

you're sitting there talking about this thing. And then, so it started with a conversation about this thing that she was going through. And then it just turns into this great, beautiful song, somehow like that. Yeah, and Chaplin Dan's process is like, the times I've written with them, we write, and the meat of the song is there,

but they're gonna go and obsess over the details for a while. Are you writing to a melody when that's happening, or are you purely thinking about lyrics at that point? Yeah, I mean, both. You know, it's sometimes you write a song and the song started because someone just had a great melody with no lyrics and then you find a lyric that goes to it.

But my preferred way of writing is always because for me, I'm like, well, but this song should sound like what we're talking about. Or if it sounds very different from what we're talking about that needs to be an intentional choice Yeah, yeah So I prefer much prefer to start with like we know what this song is about and then let's make it sound like what it's About yeah, and if it ends up being a sad song with a happy beat we're doing that on purpose intentional. Yeah. Yeah interesting Yeah, interesting. Yeah, what's so true to you Justin? What's so true to me? Yeah What is so true to me? What is so true to me is that?

I Think for I love Caring yeah, I love like wanting greatness and I love wanting To laugh really hard and to have a lot of fun and to like have great sex. I think, caring is very true to me. And I think that we're in a time where like caring, people think it's like cringe and you're trying too hard.

Mitch, if you aren't trying too hard, what are you doing? The world's ending, try harder. Try harder to have more fun. Try harder to make better art. Like, try. Being a, there's, the phrase that try hard is like an insult is so crazy. That's nuts. I am a try hard. I try very hard. Like it's, yes, I have talent, but not really. I just try, I just try really hard. Yeah, giving a fuck is deeply chic. Yeah, it's very cool. It's very cool, yeah.

Yeah, what's so true to you today? Justin, you are just dead set on turning this whole show around on me. And I've just about had it. But stop booking fans on your show. It's just gonna happen. I can, it's good for my ego. Well.

I can, it's good for my ego. Well. I can, it's good for my ego. God, what's so true to me today? That, yours'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it.

I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it.

I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it.

I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna process lately. I've been thinking, obviously, a lot about AI and how much I hate it. We just recently, actually, I'll talk about this, we turned down a huge brand deal for this show, for an AI thing that was life-changing money. The reason is because I fucking hate it. During the course of interrogating whether we should, and that's not for pats on the back, everyone makes choices every day about business.

But in the course of thinking about whether or not we would do that, I've just been thinking a lot about process and the fact that even if AI could make a perfect comedy script or a perfect song, that the antidote to that is people who give a fuck about how it came about. And we have to be obsessed with how things come to be and not just how they turn out Yeah, and I've been thinking about that in my own work

and I'm working on a project right now that I'm gonna film in June that I'm like very very excited about and So I'm just thinking that I'm in process for so I've just been thinking a lot about like I guess my so true for today and right now would be like we need to I guess my so true for today and right now would be like we need to More than ever be obsessed with process and the way that things come to be Because it makes stuff better and because it gives value then to if it doesn't turn out the way you want to if you write An incredible movie script and no one buys it or makes it if you really truly value process and get value from the process Then it was still worthwhile Yeah

If no one gives you 12 million dollars to make your great film But you wrote a great film and you're somebody who genuinely loves and takes pleasure from the process Yeah, then it was no time wasted and I think especially in in I've been thinking about it a lot in relation to AI Yeah, and if you're you can't do that if you're not like there's so many songs that I write that no one's ever gonna hear. And I think that that's great. Because I'm learning something every day and I'm like, it is a muscle. I took the first year and a half off of COVID because my parents moved in with me. And the thought of getting them sick somehow just like haunted my dreams.

So I just like did not, we just like stayed in the house for a year and a half together and it was actually a blast. I'm very lucky. But coming out of it, it took me a while to write a good song again because it is the process is so important. And if you can't, it doesn't matter how naturally good you are at something, if you're not in the process, you're just going to be rusty. It's it's like it's it's the process is the best part I actually like did a whole AI thing because I got approached and I was so brutal to them

I've said this publicly it was with Google and YouTube I was so brutal to them about how much it terrified me and how much I thought it was gonna like hurt songwriters deeply. And I assumed they would never talk to me again. And because of that, they wanted to like, to like, pay me to be even more involved. And I had to make like a really serious choice of like, do I want to be in the room as a songwriter advocate with this technology and like raising my hand anytime I was concerned or I do want to just want to say fuck off and it was a hard choice. It was a really hard choice like I thought about it as long as I could until

they were like you either decide now or we're gonna go to somebody else and I did it and it was scary but also not Well, what do you think about that? I mean, what do you think about AI and protecting songwriters and artists? Like, what is the relationship between this technology that is, I don't have answers, I have concerns, but a technology that is certainly visibly, presently happening, and art forms that are,

at least in some ways, inherently threatened by it. How are those going to interplay and what are we going to do? For me, one of the main reasons I said yes is because the music business has tried to resist technology so many times and we always lose. And then you have Metallica suing 12-year-olds for Napster. It's just like, it's never, it's never, it's just never, and nothing else matters, it's a great song, but suing minors was crazy.

You know what I mean? Hey, that was nuts. Arresting, you know what's so true to me? Arresting teenagers for listening to your music is wild. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you're a fan? I'll see you in court, bitch. You pre-teen bitch.

Literally, a 12-year-old was taken out in handcuffs. Do you guys remember this? Yeah. A handcuffed 12-year-old. They're like, I'm glad you like the music. High school's going to be tough from behind bars. So my thought was, the amount of times that the music business has been like, technology, ew,

and lost miserably. The business just bleeds money for like a decade every time. We're like, no. So I was like, all right, let me at least be in the room, Lin-Manuel, and just like see what happens. That was a Hamilton reference. Apparently it didn't go over well, that's fine.

Never seen it, sorry, Lin. Yeah. And it, what I liked about it is I could see ways that it could be a helpful tool, but it has no taste. And so it didn't scare me as much as the first day they showed me a couple little things. I was so scared and told them that, which is why they said, let's go deeper. We like that you're being so honest. And then once I got in there, I was like, there's no, I mean, famous last words, like watch it have a great taste tomorrow. But there was no taste at all.

So I just wasn't, it didn't scare me in the least bit. And that was like, I can see where not to get too in the weeds, but there's a thing called splice that a lot of producers use that are royalty free samples. Very famous and this is an amazing song, so I'm not shading the song, but Espresso, Sabrina Carpenter, a good chunk of that track is built on royalty free samples. Amazing song. Amy Allen, one of the greatest songwriters in the world, this is not shade, is royalty free samples. So, AI in my world looking at it,

oh, it could like, hey, give me a weird little guitar riff and then a producer's gonna take that guitar riff and still has to build a whole song out of it. In those ways, if it, in the music business at least, there's already all these random cheat codes that are building hit songs right now. So, if AI can just give us a couple more cheat codes, but it's still, you know, espresso is for unbelievable songwriters

making that song, but using a little help. If AI becomes another way to have a little help, I'm okay with it. Obviously replacing songwriters is really bad for me and for my friends. So it definitely is scary and I still don't know how to feel about it. Like 100% there's no way to say what's right or wrong about it, but I was not as brave as you. I said yes to the AI.

It's not bravery. It's the, you and I are having the exact same feeling, which is I don't know how to feel about it. And so in the moment, I am in a position where I didn't have to say yes to it, thankfully. And so I chose not to because I don't know my feelings. And we talked, the three of us talked a lot about it. I was like, I have no judgment.

And we were all like, if we did it, we would make it make sense for us. I wouldn't have judgment. I have friends, the exact same brand partnership, actually. I have friends who did it. And I was like, good for you. To me, it's just a, I don't have judgment. I have friends, the exact same brand partnership actually, I have friends who did it. And I was like, good for you. To me, it's just, I don't, I just distrust the people in charge so much. And I just distrust CEOs and business executives and billionaires so much that I just don't think they actually care about any of us. And I've seen how they will replace us at any fucking chance.

And I just think if there's a way for them to do it easier, it really scares me. And it's already fucked. I mean, TV writing, as one example, is like, a staff writer on Modern Family had multiple houses. You were, as a staff writer, now if you staff, it is so unbelievable how bad TV has gotten. People can't make a living at it.

You're having to staff multiple times a year to make a living. And the cost of living keeps going up, and the wages stagnate. It's just, yeah, I have real, real concerns about it, and I have no answers. And that's my truth. But here's another truth for you.

We have a segment for you, Justin. Oh my God, I can't wait. And it's the true or false. Which you might know. I'm gonna read you 15 statements, okay? And you're gonna tell me as quickly as you can if you think that what I just said is true or false. And if you get 10 or more correct, we're gonna give you 50 US dollars.

Which Justin, I just know it's gonna change things for ya. I've been to your house, it was a real dump. I'm hoping that we can get you into a nicer place with this 50 bucks. Has one of the most gorgeous homes I've ever seen. Are you ready? I mean, I'm gonna get all this wrong, but yeah Okay, the longest wedding veil on record was four miles long Just because whoever whatever Queen did that I want to bow down to her I would just want to say it's true cuz fierce for her and it is true. Yeah

Cool aid was invented in Chicago. Oh my god, I should know this being from Chicago-ish. I think that's false. It is false. It's Hastings, Nebraska. The first number to be spelled using the letter A is 1000. The first number to be spelled that uses the letter A is 1000. I can't even spell my name half the time. I I don't I don't know I'm gonna say false It's true Wow really tough question wrap your head around yeah, the Chicago Academy for the Arts was founded in 1944 Also is 1981 the goosebumps books were written by Lemony Snicket No, he's a character. He's not a writer, right? False. It was R.L. Stein.

Movie trailers were originally shown after the movie. I'm going to say true because why not? There used to be newsreels before the movie. This is true. You are doing so good. The very first hot air balloon took flight in 1783. I feel like that that's false because I hope it's false because I wouldn't trust someone in 1783 in an air balloon That seems wild and yet someone did it's true. No

Wow Courtney love was born in Ireland that I Really should know this and it's gonna if I get this one, she's gonna fucking kill me I know she spent time in Ireland, but I don't think she was born there False Are you sure? Is it true? We had to pick. I mean, there was times in San Francisco, fuck, she's going to kill me. And trust me, at some point you guys are going to know why it's really bad that I'm getting this wrong. I'm gonna say false.

It's false. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Shout out to Courtney, San Francisco. Taco Bell is older than the band Earth, Wind and Fire. True.

It is true. Squids have beaks. That's just like, whoever wrote this question get a life. Yeah, truly. Like do you know that porn exists? Well we just spent some time in Texas and it doesn't down there anymore. Wait, do squids have beaks? Yeah.

God. That is a wild one. I'm going to say true just because I feel like it's why else would you write that if it wasn't true? It's true. Okay, US paper currency is made of a blend of cotton and linen No one else thinks that question is just inherently funny It really tickled you What you guys for real need we get bored on this show we have to do things like this that's false That's true wait cotton and linen and linen one the thing that we touch every day. Yes money

Okay, I will produces the most popcorn in the US I Just I don't like Iowa, so I want to take it from them even if it is there So I'm gonna say false even if it's not false. It's Nebraska So I want to take it from them, even if it is there. So I'm going to say false, even if it's not. False, it's Nebraska. Wow. Fallout Boy was formed in Wilmette, Illinois. That is true.

That is true. A species of sunflower grows on the surface of Mars. No. False. You're saying false? It is false. Disneyland sells Pepsi products. Oh, I should know this.

I have a really dear friend of mine. His name is Breedlove. I'm shouting him out, because you should look him up. He gave himself that name, by the way, in case you were curious. He chose Breedlove, which is problematic, but also fabulous. He is a Disney YouTuber, and he's amazing. He's, we've discussed, he mainly reviews

like food and beverage at Disney. I think it's true. It's Coke only, But how did Justin do? 11. That is so good. How many? 15. 11 out of 15 is crazy. Is that good? Yeah, we like that. Wow. I'm getting myself a round of applause.

Everybody. This is happiness. Applaud yourself. Do you know sometimes I wake up applauding? No, you do not. I swear on my life. Justin Tranter. I swear on my fucking life. Justin Tranter. I wake up being like, ah, she did it again. She survived the night with her heart monitor one more time.

Justin Tranter wakes up applauding is likely the episode title. I mean, good lord. Justin, I just love you and think the world of you. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing it. I love you. And it's honestly, honestly is an honor.

I was like, from minute two to five, I was actually nervous and I'm never nervous ever. And it wasn't because the conversation got weird from minute two to five, it was great. I just, I am like a genuine fan of yours. You're too sweet. And I know that's weird to say to people that you've met in real life, but I am a fan of yours and so thank you so much for having me here.

Baby, it couldn't be more mutual. Thank you. I just think the world of you. Thanks for doing it. Of course. Thank you for having me. Justin Tranter, we did it, everybody. That was a HateGum podcast.

Hey, I'm Tony Hale. I'm Matt Oberg. And I'm Kristen Schall. And we're going to be hosting the new podcast, The Extraordinarians, where we are going to be interviewing extraordinary people, doing extraordinary ins where we are going to be in interviewing Extraordinary people doing extraordinary things things that we have never and probably will never do we talk to people who have broken records on Slackline suspended by hot air balloons. Yes. We're talking to people who have done Multiple flips on trampolines. You'll have to tune in to find out how many flips they did. Subscribe to Extraordinarians on Spotify, Apple podcasts,

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