So True with Caleb Hearon - Murad Awawdeh is Fighting for Immigrants

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Welcome! This week’s guest is President & CEO of The New York Immigration Coalition & NYIC ACTION, Murad Awawdeh! Murad and Caleb have an earnest discussion about the current state of immigration in the United States, and what people like him are doing to help those in need at this time. More resources and information about Murad’s organizations: https://linktr.ee/NYIC?utm_source=linktree_profile_share&ltsid=d5ebe33f-b8ab-4322-8028-277b9a1b4261 Join our Patreon for an exclusive post-episode chat with Caleb and other bonus content! https://patreon.com/SoTruePodcast?utm_medium=unknown&utm_source=join_link&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator&utm_content=copyLink  Follow Murad! @heyitsmurad Follow the show! @sooootruepod Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloudHead to https://www.squarespace.com/SOTRUE to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code SOTRUE. Make Any Day Payday!Transform your living space today with Cozey. Visit https://www.Cozey.com, the home of possibilities, made easy.About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1  » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum  » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum So True is a Headgum podcast, created and hosted by Caleb Hearon. The show is produced by Chance Nichols with Associate Producer Allie Kahan and Executive Producer Emma Foley. So True is engineered by Casey Donahue and engineered and edited by Nicole Lyons. Kaiti Moos is our VP of Content at Headgum. Thanks to Luke Rogers for our show art and Virginia Muller our social media manager.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a HeadGum Podcast. The new McCrispy Strip is here. Dip approved by ketchup, tangy barbecue, honey, mustard, honey mustard, Sprite, McFlurry, Big Mac sauce, double dipped in Buffalo and ranch, more ranch, and creamy chili McCrispy Strip dip. Now at McDonald's. That's just not enough. Sharing infographics on your story is not enough.

And so we've got to find ways to do do more and I'm also saying that to myself Like we've got a we've got to do more. Is there good news. Is there any good news? We'll cut it if you say no Hey guys, it's me Kayla, welcome back to so true on last week's episode Hey this episode is not funny. Okay. I'm just going to tell you right now, we're talking with Maraad today who is with the New York immigrant coalition. He's an immigration organizer and advocate. Yeah, today's not a funny episode. I don't want to see, fuck all about it in the comments. I don't want to see any fucking comments

about how this episode is not funny. I miss when the show was funny. I don't want to hear it. This episode is important to me. I had a lot of questions about this issue.. I had a lot of questions about this issue. I've seen a lot of questions about this issue. I wanted to talk to somebody knowledgeable about it. The last time we had someone on like this on like an activist was Tara. When we talked about tenant rights a long time ago. So once every, you know, 10, 15 or 20 episodes,

I might just talk to someone about something I'm interested in and there might not be a single laugh. I think think I think maybe I got one joke. I think I got one joke in Into this episode. Maybe one joke about billionaires. It's not funny. You're not gonna laugh during this episode Okay, if you don't want to watch an episode about Immigration and what's going on in the country right now? Don't watch this one. This one's not gonna be funny, but it is really informative I'm so glad that Maraad came in and talked to us I got a lot of context for a lot of things that I was seeing and hearing I tried to I try in this episode

To ask some dumb questions. Okay Or some things that are like less informed than I am I tried to ask from different points of views and perspectives multiple times when I do that in this episode I immediately abandon it because I actually can't even access the, the kind of, it's not Dom, it's the cruelty that really gets to me. But this is an episode with Murad about what's going on in immigration right now. I am Caleb Herron, your host as always. And if you don't want to see or hear an episode that is pretty seriously engaging with some questions about what's going on, how do we help? What is the truth? What are the lies?

If you're not interested in that, I would encourage you to skip the so true podcast this week or even better, let it play in the background and just don't listen to it so that we still get our ad impressions. And I will be also just to let you know, making a donation to the New York immigrant coalition. And since we're going to make money off this episode, we make money off the episodes. That's how podcasting works. I'll be making a donation to Morad's organization

as a thank you to him for coming. And I hope it's helpful. I hope maybe there's a parts of it that you can share with people in your life that, you know, aren't, we're not all immigration experts or lawyers or like leftist political thinkers. And so if there are people like that in your life that you think maybe could be won over that could come around to our perspective on immigration and what it means to treat people with dignity and respect and if you are like me horrified by what's going on in this country regarding immigration and the way we're

talking about immigrants and treating immigrants as a policy maybe there's something in here that's helpful for you, and maybe there's not and I should fuck off forever, and I'm open to it. Enjoy the episode everybody. I really can't get over how chic these boots are. Thank you. I'm like actually needing them bad. I'm gonna be asking for a link when we leave.

Murad, how's it going? It's going, you know, living life. Yeah, it's a funny thing to ask how it's going when It's going. Yeah. Living life. Yeah. It's a funny thing to ask how it's going when we're about to do like an episode about immigration. Because the answer is, hey, it's a little tough at the moment, I imagine. It's incredibly tough. You know, Trump administration came in and within their first 100 days, issued over 250 anti-immigrant executive orders, policies, actions. So that's about 2.5 actions a day. Yeah.

Targeting the communities that we fight for, right? Fight for families being able to stay together, people being able to contribute and be part of their communities and continue to, you know, contribute to a larger society, right? And it's just really gut-wrenching to see the level of attacks we continue to witness from this administration. Because not only are they coming back with the same playbook from their first administration, they've escalated it. And we're seeing at times also not listening to the courts when they're told to reverse their actions. So it's been, I would say difficult as an understatement, but we're going to continue to fight forward because we have nowhere to go back

to. Yeah. A heads up for the listeners. This is, we're talking with Maraud, who's an immigrant, an immigration advocate, um, an organizer in New York. Uh, I don't know how funny the episode will be, but this is not explicitly a comedy podcast. We like talking to people about different kinds of things. Um, and I'm gonna, I told you before we came on mic, like I'm going to ask some questions that I think,

I think there are a lot of misunderstandings and I think there are a lot of things that people are confused about. And even people who, I know at least a lot of people in my own personal life, uh, especially in Missouri where I'm from, that they, they're not, they're not, it's like that percent of people that we could still win over about the things we're trying to talk about and the way we're trying to talk about these issues.

Would it be fair to say that you're, like if I called you a leftist, would you identify with that? Yeah, and then leftists would say I'm not a leftist. Yeah, okay, interesting. It's, you know, I'm more of a common sense and like do what's right for the people and what the people want.

Yeah. As a person, not necessarily. I have my own ideology that I think supersedes anyone else's. Yeah. I feel sometimes with leftists in these conversations and others, it can be like a competition to be who can be the most correct, like who can be the most proper and correct. And I'm actually not interested in that. I want everyone to be okay, and I want to win and I want to beat the people who

People who want to do mass deportations for example people who want to issue that amount of like anti-immigrant Like I want to beat those people because I think that's fucked up and wrong I am NOT trying to win a competition to be the person who says all the words the most correctly and I think there are a lot of people in the country, like I said, back home, especially that they genuinely don't know what's going on and they don't, they're not hearing or seeing the things that I'm seeing. They're not hearing or seeing,

or maybe even thinking critically about the fact that like Trump literally said recently, uh, and we can put on the screen, Nicole, in the edit, if I get the words, uh, you know know not exactly correct because people will dog me for that But he said you know like immigrants are like poisoning the blood of our country that shit is like That is crazy. That is like really fucking insane and nuts Yeah, it's it's part and parcel to the way in which he acts. Yeah normally against anything He's against right so like today's thing is Bruce Springsteen and he thinks he's a horrible person because he talked badly about him.

And I think that immigrants tend to be who have always been scapegoated in this country. It's not like a new thing. We saw it happen when, you know, Jewish folks were fleeing the Holocaust and trying to come here they were refused entry yeah which is also why we have asylum laws now in this country which is remarkable that it's being it's become such a lightning rod issue when people are fleeing for their own safety and security more than not because of our own country's like bad foreign policy that has negatively impacted their home countries.

Yeah, and they're seeking safety here. Um, and now this has become a thing where you know the Don trump wants to end the asylum completely and he's virtually done that by shutting down the border writ large on his own right now. Yeah So I think that the way in which, if you look back in history, it's always those who are incredibly wealthy,

who are also parading this campaign of anti-immigration because it takes the attention away from them. Right now it's the billionaire class, right? There's this budget reconciliation bill that's moving through congress as we speak right now, which is going to cut Medicaid for millions of people in this country, cut SNAP benefits, and SNAP benefits go to those who are the people struggling to buy food, housing subsidies to help people stay housed. And all that's being cut so that we can fund a more anti-immigrant policies and immigration

raids that he wants to do. And at the same time, give billionaires more tax cuts in this moment. So instead of actually helping people, if you looked at every single national exit poll across this country, the day of election, you looked at it, the number one issue that 40% of Americans who participated in that exit poll and every exit poll out, not just here in New York, but across the country, they would say the number one issue for them was the economy and affordability. Yeah.

40% of people, and that's why they went out to vote. Nothing he has done has lowered costs for people. Nothing he has done has helped people make it. Nothing he has done has helped people, if anything, every single action he's taken is making the affordability crisis even worse. Not just with the tariffs, but his attacks on immigrants, right? I'll give you one example of how industries are hurting in this moment, right?

Our agricultural industry, I think people forget we have agricultural industries across every, nearly almost every state. It's a one trillion dollar industry per year. Yeah. A trillion dollars. 70% of that workforce is our immigrants. Yeah. And if people think food is expensive now, as they continue to raid farms like they have

been in New York, where in a day or two they arrested 140 dairy farm workers in upstate New York, we're going to continue to see prices soar. And that goes even across every industry. So healthcare, we have a healthcare worker shortage. Immigrants are a large portion of that population that are workers in that workforce. The same thing with the construction industry. Immigrants are a large portion of those workers.

So when you wanna repair your home or build a new home You know, we're having a housing crisis across this country because we haven't built homes in a long time And now is the time to invest in building more homes that then helps make homes more affordable To rent to buy and so on so forth Who's gonna build that? So yeah my one of the things you mentioned is like that this that you know this is the billionaires distracting from themselves and my

personal view of it is like I think sometimes I'm a very left person and people who listen to the show know that and we do have listeners that are not of that political persuasion which I find funny but I'm like welcome I can't hurt to be hearing people talking about things this way but I'm my view of it is like it's not a it's not it to me I'm not like I think sometimes we on the left welcome, I can't hurt to be hearing people talking about things this way. But my view of it is like, it's not a, it's not, to me I'm not like, I think sometimes we on the left, especially the last like eight years, have gotten accused of being like, oh fuck Trump and everything he does, it's all the fuck Trump thing. And I'm like, well yeah, I feel that way because I don't like what he's doing. But more specifically, I'm like, from a pragmatic approach, which you and I talked a little bit about, I have a pragmatic approach to like, I want working-class people to be better off. And I

think that billionaires are distracting us from the evil shit that they're doing to make all of our lives worse and continue to pad their own pockets. And they're doing that via talking about trans people and immigrants right now. That's the thing. And I don't, my, the view that I would love to help like a poor, a working class person in Missouri, for example, or Kentucky or wherever, anywhere, but specifically in these places that are going so hard for Trump and are so

excited about this like mass deportation idea which I think is very rampant in his base obviously it's like a big part of why he won the thing the position I would like to give is like to look at people like Donald Trump and his billionaire friends and think that they are more on your side than an undocumented line cook in your community or a trans person who works as a barista at a coffee shop or whatever, like to look at these different communities that are struggling to pay rent just like you who can't afford groceries, just like you who don't get to go on vacations or own their home just like you.

Like these things that all the rich people do with ease and never think about we're all in that struggle together. But I'm wondering, like you talked about the agricultural industry and the medical industry, and I actually did have a surprisingly, I'm conflicted about it, but I had a surprisingly interesting conversation with a kind of conservative, not conservative, but like a middle of the road, like moderate friend of mine in Missouri who works in the healthcare industry and said like, Oh, I'm extremely anti this deportation shit because the only people who wanted to

work during and after COVID were immigrants. And I feel conflicted about the ways that sometimes we go, well, who's going to work these horrible jobs for no pay if we don't let immigrants stay here. I have conflicted feelings about that. But what can you tell me about like this conversation that happens a lot with immigration about like there it's, it's at once they're, they're sucking on the, the, they're sucking on the welfare. They're taking all the welfare. They're getting all these benefits.

We're supporting them to be here. I hear a lot like we don't even take care of our veterans and we're taking care of these illegal immigrants. It's that message coinciding at the same time from the same people of they're taking our jobs. What do we do with that? What is that? Yeah, I think that that is like the biggest misnomer out there.

The vast majority, if not, I would say the immigrant community contributes so much in taxes. Here in the state of New York, over $74 billion in state and local taxes are contributed by immigrant communities, documented and undocumented. That is an enormous amount of money. Our spending power here in the state of New York

is $200 billion. Our spending power being? Immigrant communities. Yes, exactly, okay. And the vast majority of immigrants who are contributing into and paying into taxes actually don't reap the benefits that US citizens do. So they have no access to food stamps.

They have no access to healthcare. If you're undocumented in the state of New York, even if you wanted to buy health insurance, you can't. So when these false narratives and misinformation continues to be pumped out in the media constantly talking about, immigrants are taken away from you. What specifically are they taking away? Because they're not eligible for SNAP. They're not eligible for healthcare, they're not eligible

for housing subsidies, they're not eligible for all these things that they're being, you know, that the general public is being sold, that they're stealing away from someone else. So I think that this is another part of the problem is that we don't have reliable journalism anymore. So when you have someone like a Stephen Miller going on TV and just literally lying, I'm not even saying it's misinformation at this point, just lying about immigrant communities,

you would expect that the anchor would be like, well, that's not true, this is not. And it literally does not happen anymore. You you don't see fact-checking happening in real life in in real time or anything and I think that First and foremost you have so much more in common with Billy with immigrants than you do with billionaires. Yeah That is so the reality and I don't understand how we can't coalesce around that and grasp that as working, like working people identifying with billionaires who are telling them immigrants are destroying this country. I go, why would you ever look at a billionaire

and think that's somebody who has my best interests at heart? Yeah. Tell me a billionaire who started off as a working class person. Yeah. Do you know any? Uh, no. I don't either. You know why? Because the vast majority, if not all of them, have come through life with some form of wealth and that being, you know, Elon Musk, his father being, you know, stealing resources from Africa, right? Diamonds, emeralds, so on and so forth. Yeah. That is not him becoming a natural born billionaire.

You have a better chance of getting struck with lightning than you ever becoming a billionaire. Probably like three times. You probably have a better chance of being struck by lightning three times in a day. Cause if you look, you're right, if you look back at like every billionaire's origin story, it's never like, oh yeah, they started as a fry cook and just kept at it

It's always something like yeah, their grandpa killed the guy who invented oil and took his patent and then moved on to his life It's always something like insane. It goes back so far. So there you literally I Have not seen a self-made quote-unquote billionaire. Yeah, people will say that there is always a story of how that's not true. Yeah. So I think when people see and I'm not talking about like we're looking for camaraderie, I'm saying look out for yourself. Yeah. Right.

If you're thinking about this in the grand scheme of things, how does supporting billionaire policies help you specifically? Well, every agency across this country was getting defunded, cut, or shuttered. At the same time that they were looking for waste and fraud, Elon Musk was getting another several billion dollar contract from the government. That seems to me like waste and fraud, right? How are we, the guy who's cutting these like critical

life-saving programs and agencies is like, oh well whatever money I get is not waste and fraud. Enrich me more. I'll take more tax dollars. So I think when we're talking about these issues, immigrants want the same thing everyone else does and they care about the same things everyone else does. They care about their families, faith and food, like literally, that is what it comes down to. And I think that, you know, you're sold the story of like, they're the enemy and it is not. The more power that the billionaire class

can continue to build across this country means that they have to ensure that there's division below. And even with the trans community, right? Like if, tell me what specifically is the trans community doing that is deserving, and no one deserves this, but deserving of any of these attacks

that they're witnessing, right? The trans community in the United States is 1% of the population. 1%. I think we're focusing on States is 1% of the population. 1%. I think we're focusing on the wrong 1% here. It's the billionaires and the ultra wealthy who are the 1% that we need to be focusing on and asking the question of how do they continue to get enriched off of our backs. And now with this new tax scam, because they already got one under Trump the first time, this new tax scam is going to be even more detrimental to everyday working people across

this country. I like the framing that you give of like, I'm not asking you to like, you know, be in solidarity with these people that supposedly have these disparate like needs and wants that we can't possibly understand or relate to. I'm asking you to like be selfish and look out for yourself. I'm asking you not to side with billionaires who would, you know, throw any of us into a meat grinder if it made their day easier and actively in many ways metaphorical and literally do. But maybe you could help me make the case. If I was talking to, you know,

you know, a middle class, maybe someone who would consider themselves middle class, they have a decent job, they own their home in the suburbs of some nice enough city and some red state that you know, some somebody's parents you know that they have gone for Trump and they they feel like immigration is they feel like illegal immigration and People being here from another country illegally or the wrong way or whatever is hurting them. What is the argument? What is the argument against that? What are what do we say to somebody like that? You know, if we go all the way back to their families, attorney to come to this country, I can assume that more than not, many people did not come here, quote unquote, the right way, because there's never really been a right way. Yeah, our immigration system has been broken since day one, and only continues to get broken by the day.

Historically, people would just show up on a boat and get processed in and that's it. So you just come on a boat, land in Ellis Island or on the West Coast, they take your name, where are you gonna live, and then you're on your way. Then eventually they were like, all right, let's be a little bit more limiting. People coming on the boats, you have to have 20 bucks in your pocket. Yeah. And then that became

the first litmus test of like who they're going to provide entry or not. And I think that when you hear about, well, I did it the right way, what was your way? I want to be educated on what your way is. Because more than not, there was something wrong in the story that should not have happened, right? We have a elected official who is the child of immigrants here in New York, I'm not gonna name them to give them clout, but they often say, I'm a child of immigrants, and my family did it the right way.

And then when you look into it, they actually didn't. So it becomes this thing and this contention over what's right, what's wrong, who's right, who's wrong. And I often tell people, let's just look at the history of how we got here and what we need to do actually. And I would agree with this person, by the way, that if there's one thing we can agree on, and I agree with Trump too, by the way, on this there's one thing we can agree on, and I agree with Trump too by the way on this,

is that our immigration system is broken. Yeah. And needs to be fixed. How we fix it, we have different approaches, but our immigration system has been broken and will continue to be broken. So let me, that's another great question. What, and that's something that's come up

when I've talked to people about this thing that are, you know, more on the left side or the sympathetic to immigrant side that aren't, you know, I think there's a bloodthirsty faction of people who are looking for someone to be mad at that I'm not sure what to say to them. And I'm actually, if I'm being a hundred percent honest, I'm not sure that I am interested in figuring it out because I don't know if they can be won over it. There's,

there's a hatefulness to this issue that like it does sometimes feel like maybe it's jumped a shark and I don't know how to get to those people and so I'll keep working on it and thinking about the rest of us on the way there but like this idea of we all agree that the immigration system is broken that's something that comes up people on the right and left both say hey it's fucked it's not working what is your perspective as someone who works in this space with a lot of these communities what is the ideal like what would we have here? Would we have open borders with no regulations? Would we have, what is the ideal? I think first and foremost, what we have to acknowledge

is that A, it's broken, oops, sorry. You're fine. The second piece is that we need to provide people with pathways to legalization who have lived here forever. The last time that ever happened was in 1986. Whatever happened? Pathways to legalization? Yes, like real legalization. Yeah. And it happened under the radical and the extremely left President Reagan. So we need to actually and that one action that he took and he was a horrible president too, but that one action that he took really provided

about two million people with a pathway that then helped them build their lives here. I think, you mentioned this earlier about like, oh, I don't wanna talk about, like people say, well, who do those jobs? We have a bigger issue as a country. We will not have the population in the coming decades that we need to survive as a nation. And I don't know about other folks, but having kids in this country is very expensive.

So we need to figure out our population challenge. And I think immigration has been that solution for a long time. And so I think the first part is, yes, provide legalization. The second part is fix our system. Right now, the closer you are to whiteness, the easier it is for you to come to this country. Right. There are quotas on countries about who's allowed to come in, who's not. Let's take that away.

Let's actually make it a fairer and more just system. So you're addressing the challenge of the people who've been here, which was 12 million and had lived here for decades and have lived undocumented, have no access to any services but have been contributing to all those services. Our roads, our bridges, our healthcare, our social security that they will never have access to. Let's give

them a path to legalization, get them out of the shadows so they are contributing more into society. Let's fix the system on how we are providing visas and then move forward in that way. You know, I don't, I'm not trying to be, you know, open borders, closed borders. I think borders are all arbitrary to begin with, but I do think that we have to have more legal pathways for people to get into the country and You know, I wasn't very happy with President Biden and his positions either on certain things But one thing he did do was create more pathways He created humanitarian parole program

for Cuba Nicaragua, Venezuela, and Haiti, countries that are being devastated right now with political trife, violence, and everything else that really they should have been given even further protections as nations, but weren't. So he created that parole program for them, which helped people come to the country, not at southern border. Those folks ended up flying into the United States and had a sponsor. So that sponsor was then the person

who's helping them integrate within the United States. And more than likely, it was like a family member, right? So we need to think about how we're creating better pathways to address the border challenge that we have. And then when we do create those and those work, you see 90% of people from those countries actually arriving at the southern border. So we don't have to be violent and horrific with our policies, we just need to have

good solutions to them. And I think that program, which now is canceled by President Trump and is being litigated in court, was a good example of like, if you actually create something that works, it'll work. Yeah. So you talk about Biden, and this is another question that I have seen come up a lot, which is like,

we've never had a leftist president in this country. We've never had a, you know, that's a conversation that always trips me up is I'm like, look, I'm a pragmatic person. I can talk to people of all different kinds of ideas. And I really believe that on a lot of things, we, most of us can find a lot of common ground genuinely, even as someone who is very left. People who say Joe Biden was a radical leftist. I go, I know that's not true because I wasn't happy with him.

I mean, I'm like, we haven't even given that a shot. So what is the, what is the difference between Obama did deportations, Biden did deportations. They were, you know, Kamala really tried to run on this idea that like we were strong on the border and we did better on the border. We let in less people than so and so, or whatever. We, you know, unfortunately we have a system in this country where everyone tries to make their case that they're, they're also tough on immigrants

What is the reality like what is the difference between the Trump administration's approached immigration and the Biden or Obama or Bush or Clinton? Like what is the change here that everyone is so upset about so just historically Republicans have always been the family the party that was pro-immigrant Yeah the family, the party that was pro-immigrant. Historically, I want people to go and look up the Reagan-Bush debate and how they talk about immigration. And I want people to actually watch that. And every good policy, unfortunately,

unfortunately that has happened, has happened under Republican leadership in this country on immigration. There was a schism that happened post, you know, George W. Bush, where he was campaigning that he was going to work with Mexico and create, you know, comprehensive immigration reform and move it through, you know, the unfortunate attacks of 9-11 moved his attention to wars and creating more havoc elsewhere, but It really did show that We then had nowhere that was going to actually champion and promote immigrants. Yeah

So obama did deport the most people ever in this country Trump didn't even come close to it in his first term, and now he's trying to actually take that title of deporter in chief. Every administration deports people and does so incredibly violent. I don't think people understand how deportation works. Everyone's entitled to due process in this country, regardless of your immigration status. I know that that's a question out there. It is not a question to actually be litigated because it was before and Supreme Court and

other courts have literally said every person in this country has the right to due process. This by the way is a very concerning thing to me that like this, this to me is one of those things where I go, you know, a lot of people in politics they try and like the people on both sides try and go they try and position a thing where goes we should all be able to agree on this then they'll say something like baby shouldn't be killed and it's like they're trying to position it to where like they're trying to make an infallible unquestionable statement that we should all be able to agree on but there are some things that we should unquestionably be able to agree on and

when you've got like when Scalia was alive and on the. And when you've got like, when Scalia was alive and on the Supreme Court, when you've got him saying, yeah, if you're undocumented in this country, you still get due process. It's persons who receive due process in this country. That's Scalia. Like we've lost the shared understanding, I think, of exactly what you're saying,

which is like, now you've got people saying like, no, if you're here illegally, anything that happens to you is what you deserve. We can send you to El Salvador. We can send you to a fucking torture prison in El Salvador, not even send you're here illegally, anything that happens to you is what you deserve. We can send you to El Salvador. We can send you to a torture prison in El Salvador, not even send you back where you came from or where you, where you, uh, you know, have citizenship that we can send you wherever we'd like. That to me is like a real shift in the way people think about what America

does and how we treat persons who are in this country. That feels crazy to me. It is crazy. And what we're seeing under this current administration is that level of crazy, right? And they're not, you know, they campaign that they're going to go after, you know, the most violent people that they're going to go after and deport people who, you know, broke our laws. And this has never been about safety and security for this administration. It's about cruelty. And that's their point, right? So Maraad, weren't we already doing that?

Yes, that was happening. Or other presidents already, if you were committing a crime, and if you were here without documentation, and you committed a crime, you murdered someone, or assaulted someone, or did something violent, weren't you already being deported? Yes. And the other part is that data, which doesn't lie,

illustrates that immigrants actually make communities safer, more violent, or crime-ridden. How is that? What do you mean by that? Study after study shows that when immigrants move to a community, they make the community safer. And it has been proven that even sanctuary policies actually make cities safer. So like in the city of New York, yes, we do have crime in New York.

We will never not have crime, unfortunately, but cities like New York, because of our sanctuary policies, actually make our city safer because it tells people, anyone who lives here, we don't care about your immigration status. That's not our job. We want you to be an active participant within our communities. And if you see or witness or a victim of a crime come to the police and report it go to district attorney and participate within society. If you feel if you're feeling sick during COVID everyone's like we're only as strong as our neighbor. Yeah immigrants are your neighbors too

and you know we want people to if they feel sick go to the hospital and not have to worry about the doctor or the nurse turning them into immigration officials. That's what sanctuary policies are. And in cities that have sanctuary policies, they are safer cities than those cities that do not. So one is immigrants do make communities safer. And then second piece is that cities that have sanctuary policies which protect immigrants and do not collude with federal immigration enforcement

simply for someone existing actually have safer cities than those who don't. So I think when we're talking about violence and not violence, it's not a thing. But to go to your original question about were they doing this before? Yes, ISIS has been in existence since 2002 when DHS got created, but even before 2002, there was INS

and people were being deported under that. If they violated their visa restrictions, if they violated the law, if, you know, under Biden, if you committed a crime and were convicted of the crime you served your time immediately after serving your time you're getting deported that you lose your status you go through the process immigration court and then if you're able to fight and get your win your case there's a number of reasons why you could then you were able to stay or if not you would be deported so this is not a new concept deportations have always happened in this country. But Trump is what he's

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offer code so true to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Thanks, Squarespace. So it's like, if you have status or if you don't, you're, you know, going to be attacked by this administration. We saw it with student activists who are green card holders. We're seeing it with student activists who have student visas. And having a green card is pretty much a really strong protection. You're a permanent resident of this country. It's like one step removed from citizenship.

So seeing the attacks that they are doing and waging in this moment pretty much is telling people like no one is safe and if green card holders aren't safe neither are US citizens. Yeah what would you say to someone who I'm curious what you would yeah I'm curious what you would say to someone who who says you know I saw a line of reasoning from Marco Rubio and obviously then their supporter like some of their supporters are very into this idea that being in the United States is a privilege if you have a green card here or a student visa it's a privilege to be here.

And so you shouldn't be doing these violent protests that support terrorist organizations. Now, obviously the framing of that is so intentional and intentionally misinforming people that these, these protests, these demonstrations are not violent. But what would you say to someone who says that, you know, having a green card or a student visa is a privilege and that their right to revoke it

at any time has actually, has always existed? It actually does, that's not how this works. Right. So. I feel crazy hearing this though, right? Because these are the officials. I'm like, what are you talking about? That's not how this works.

Even Marco Rubio's usage of his limited powers within immigration have only been used five times in U.S. history. And the last time it was used was in like 20 something years ago to revoke Osama bin Laden's relative, his green card who lived in the country, who was actively participating within like terrorism stuff. So this is not, they're misusing the law. And that's the problem that I see right now is that I think everyone has become a lawyer and a legal expert and a constitutional rights expert. And, you know, they just hear one thing, be it from a government official, unfortunately, who is saying the wrong thing and then saying, well, that is fact. They

have the power to do that and they don't. So I think what we're seeing right now is the courts actually step up and assume their role of being an equal branch of government. Yeah. And I think people tend to forget that there's the executive branch, Congress, and then the judiciary. They're all equal to each other. Yeah. And all have different powers. So I think what we're going to continue to see is the Trump administration and the president himself try to push the the line of what their powers give them, right? And they were going to keep trying to take more and more power. And the only thing, the only checks and balances that we have is Congress,

who doesn't seem like they're going to do anything, or the courts. And in only thing, the only checks and balances that we have is Congress, who doesn't seem like they're gonna do anything, or the courts. And in this moment, what we've seen is that the courts have stood up and said, this is, in most cases of these executive orders, have been unlawful or, you know, don't seem right, so we're gonna pause them. We're gonna put a temporary restraining order on them.

So I think when we're talking about people, because I think immigrants are people, right? We are all people, we're all human. When we're thinking about like, is it a privilege or not? I think people tend to forget that we are all human, that we're all trying to do the same thing in life, which is live and live a good, healthy and happy life. And regardless of what your position is on immigration, what I've seen is when we have these conversations with people who may not have the same viewpoints as us, we can agree

on a couple of basics, right? One that everyone should have the ability, the basic ability to determine what their life should be. Right? Yeah. People, if they want to attain education, they should be able to do that. If they want to practice their religion, they should be able to do that without fear or harm.

If they want to raise their kids, they should be able to do that as well. And that's why I always tell people whenever I start those conversations, I was like, we're gonna agree on a lot of stuff. And they're like, no, we're not. And I'm like, my values and what I care about is my family, my faith and food. You agree with those? And they're like, yeah.

And then that I think really helps us understand there's a lot more that we have in common and we don't. I talk about this all the time and think about this all the time that I go, most people, regardless of the way they're voting or like what political movement they're wrapped up in or political cult that they're experimenting with. Uh, most people want to, uh, hang out with their friends and family,

have a good time, eat good food, raise their kids, and be able to pay their bills. It really, that is across the board, uh, documented people, undocumented people, people in small towns in North Carolina, people in New York and Chicago. Most people want the same things. And I find that, that's of course the more like, in this conversation I'm finding myself

wanting to talk a lot about pragmatics. Yeah, I don't want it to get lost. That I'm like, spiritually, emotionally, like when you zoom out and get out of the like, what's best for the American people and the American economy and bottom line, this, that and the other. When you zoom out and think about like us all being human beings, of course that is the thing that disturbs me the most is I'm like, how could you watch someone be like someone who's been here for, you know, a

long time and you don't have to be this perfect case for me to care for you, but someone who's been here for 20 years and they're raising their family and working a job and not bothering anybody and like having cookouts on the weekend, watching them get ripped away by masked officers of this government agency that are not identifying themselves, getting ripped out of their community and away from their children and sent to get their fucking head shaved in an El Salvadorian prison. I don't know how we can watch that and not feel like animals. Like we're being that is absolutely brutal.

And it makes me feel crazy that we're witnessing it happen right now. You know, I witnessed I watched the video over Ma, the Tufts University student who was on her way to break her fast with her friends, right? Ordinary, you know, girly-pop thing to do during Ramadan. Yeah. And I was like seeing her like, I guess, waiting for her Uber and then six dudes, masked, covered, like you don't know who they are, they're not wearing anything identifiable. Pretty much just grab her and drag her into a vehicle. In any other place, if that was witnessed, you'd think someone's getting kidnapped. Yeah.

Like that literally is what's happening in this moment. People are being black bagged, snatched off the streets and disappeared she was in Massachusetts and then very quickly shipped off to apparently she went to multiple states and Why I think they're doing that is to intentionally harm her ability to have her rights upheld in court because depending on where you are when your lawyer files your petition is where the case is going to be heard. So if you file it in Massachusetts,

oh she was in Vermont, oh she was in whatever and that's what they're doing across the board to other people. They did that with Mahmoud Khalil, another student who was detained in his lobby of his home with his pregnant wife who was about to give birth and then it has given birth and he's still in detention where they just continuously move you so that no one knows where you are and you have no access to your community

or your family or your legal support and how they think that that's safe for anyone if they're doing it to people who have status, right? And we know these stories. Imagine the stories we don't know. And I think for me, it really should be, I feel like it should be more of an alarm bell going off in every single person's head who calls this country home. Because if their rights are being this violated, this quickly.

And what does that mean for us? Who are you as citizens? And it comes back to something we were talking about earlier about being selfish and thinking about yourself. I wish I could sit down every like Trump supporting like middle-aged person in the center and south of the country and go, I am actually not,

as much as I would love for you to care about Mahmoud Khalil and these student activists who go to, you know, very fancy schools and are talking about conflicts in a faraway place that we've never been, I would love for you to care about that. And I would love for you to care about the Palestinian people as much as I do and the genocide that Israel is committing against them. I wish that you cared about that the way that I do. That would be great. That's actually not what I'm asking of you I'm actually asking so much something so much more simple, which is when you look at somebody like Stephen Miller that sociopath talking about Yeah, we're looking into suspending habeas corpus You don't have to be a lawyer or a law student or a constitutional expert to go. Wait a minute Why would they need to suspend habeas corpus if they weren't planning on doing something that is express expressively? dangerous and illegal to anyone they want You think about that and you go

Okay, that has such far-reaching extension beyond student activists at fancy schools in New York If you can't care about that wish you could would love if you would join us if you can't care about that Does that not give you concern that you might? Have a criticism of this administration someday that they would do something else that maybe they would come into a farm community and start seizing land for some reason, for example. And this is just some, some far off thought, but that maybe someday this administration or one like it, one inspired by it in the near future,

that they would come and do something that would affect you and that you would speak out about it. And then you would be in danger. Does the slippery slope of like this actually affects all of us is so near and so present. I'm having a hard time not under, I'm having a hard time understanding why people can't see the immediate danger it has for them and their family.

Yeah, and I think that there is this like false notion of safety and security that everyone has. But I would say previous this administration, that sense of security was rightful. But what we're seeing right now, I think should take everyone's sense of security away. And even some of the, you know, the way in which that they're trying to operate

in like consolidating power within states that they have, you know, historically won cases in, like they're literally court shopping. They have, you know, historically won cases in, like they're literally court shopping. They are, they have always done this, but they are doing it even more so now with rights of people, not policy, but rights of people, moving them to Louisiana or Texas, where they know that the judges that they have appointed there will do an amazing job on siding with them.

And we've seen that happen already. Um, so I think I think again this goes back to the first thing I want people to do is be selfish. Think about yourself and then think about your global community, right? I want to also just uplift a story that recently happened here in New York, in upstate New York, like in North country, like North North country in this town called Sackett's Harbor. It's a farming community, it's you know a town of like 1,400 people, 1,300 and plus but I would say 1,400 and there was a raid that happened on a farm there and they had a

warrant, ICE had a warrant for a white South African immigrant who was a farm worker and had an H-2A visa, which is a farm working visa. And he had allegedly done something and they came, they picked him up, they didn't stop at his house. They continued to search the entire farm and arrested a mother and her three children, one who's like in elementary school and then two high school age students arrested them and put them in the van and then quickly moved them

to Texas. It was the local community that reached out to us, right? And we're like, this happened to a family in our community. We wanna fight to bring them back. And in these cases, it's really hard to fight in moments like that, especially when they've already moved them out of the state of New York. And then it dawned on me, I was like,

who the hell lives in Sacketts Harbor that I know? And I was like, I don't personally know them, but it was Tom Homan's community. The borders are for Trump. personally know them, but it was Tom Homan's community. The borders are for Trump. And the community literally fought tooth and nail. And it was such an honor to see them do that, where their fight, they organized a rally

in their own community from their visitor center, marching to Tom Homan's home. He will downplay it and say I don't really live there or that's my summer home or whatever but he lives there. The community knows him, he knows the community and like people like ordinary people who just work or live in Sagittar were calling and being like man you gotta let these people out and he's like I can't get involved But it was his Gestapo force that went and did this And I think in that community what ended up happening is that people's eyes opened up realizing like we've been sold

Something that is not true well and this also speaks to all the conversations that that come up the the primary conversation obviously that we're having today is about immigration but the to all the conversations that come up. The primary conversation, obviously, that we're having today is about immigration, but the ancillary conversations that we've had on this podcast and that people are having in general about tenant organizing and what rights you have

when your landlord decides that they're gonna do X, Y, and Z to you even though it doesn't feel like they should be able to, and they almost always can, by the way. And this comes back to a question that I would love to turn back on you in a moment, which is, well, we have got to, uh, know our neighbors. We've got to know our communities. We've got to talk to each other. We have to introduce ourselves.

And I know for younger people, especially a lot of people who listen to this show, it is like maybe very daunting and like scary to, to like go over to your neighbor's house and knock on the door and shake their hand and be like, Hey, I live next to you and my name is this. And I want to know who you are. here's my number or whatever. Here's my email. Here's some cookies I made or like whatever, but we've got to know each other. Which brings me to we asked some of our listeners like what questions would you have for somebody like Marad who works with these communities in

this work? And I was like crying reading them because so many people wrote in and just said like, How can I help? Like, what do I do? I don't know what to do. I want to help. And it's like an overwhelming response that it's just regular people who are saying, how can I help? I literally don't know what to do. Part of my answer as just, uh, you know, guy who talks into a microphone for a living and doesn't do anything that important is that we need to know each other and build strength in our communities. But what would you say to that? Like, how do we help?

Just to, I will get to how do we help in two seconds, but I think even before COVID, what we were seeing was a lot of isolation happening. And what ends up happening with isolation is that it breeds radicalism. So when we were seeing this like weird way of young white men starting to get radicalized, it didn't happen in like a vacuum, right? It happened because there was no community

that they that they were part of, or that they felt that they can go to. And I think that isolation always will breed radicalization, You will look for a community and that community that you find, maybe it's an online cult, right? You're going to find something. So I do think the first thing people should do is look for community. Know who your neighbors are. It is shocking to me that like I ask people all the time like, oh, are you cool with your neighbors?

And they're like, why would I be cool with my neighbors? I'm like, if you ever have a fire, you want someone helping you put out the fire, right? Before the fire department gets there or like helping in an emergency situation. So I do agree with you. I think knowing your neighbor is like the first step. Like go to a community meeting. In New York, we have these, in New York City,

we have these things called community boards. Go meet community board. That's like the most local level of your government. Literally, they are the ones who say, we're gonna rezone this neighborhood, or not. Rezoning your neighborhood may help you stay in the neighborhood or gentrify you out. So again, get to know the people around you.

Get, build community. If you can't find one, build one that shares your values. Don't fall for these tricks of like, don't join a supremacy organization. You can't find one, build one that shares your values, right? Don't fall for these tricks of like, don't join a supremacy organization. First of all, don't join a supremacy organization. That's number one. That's number one. Number two is look for organizations like the one I run,

where I'm the president and CEO of the New York Immigration Coalition. And we have sister organizations in 38 states. And regardless of what state you live in, you can find the list of the organizations online at the Fair Immigration Reform Movement, which we are members of and I am the co-chair of. But join an organization, see how you can help donate.

Like literally, often people are like, I really don't want to volunteer at like a community event or a rally or you know whatever. Donate your skill right? Like yeah say I'm gonna do you need a photographer? Do you need someone to help you with software engineering or whatever it is that you know how to do? You know use the tools that you have the skills you have, and support the institutions that are fighting back in this moment because it's hard. And then the easiest way is also donating because I think that

people often think like there's a magical, you know, unicorn or sugar daddy coming around and like blessing organizations that's not happening. Every organization is struggling right now and making sure that they have the resources that they need to actually do the work that they need to is really critically important. And then if you don't see an organization or a group doing the work, start one.

You know what I mean? Like a lot of the work that's happening right now and fighting back the Trump administration, yeah, some of it is institutional, but a lot of it is organic and naturally happening in communities. The hands-off rallies that we've been seeing, yes, there's people who are helping organizing logistics of it, but the tens of thousands of people coming out, those are people taking action and they're organizing themselves and their community to

come together. So I would say that people have power, people will always have power. We are the many, they are the few, and they are scared that we will unite and fight back. But that is how we win, is by stepping up in this moment, getting to know our neighbor, organizing our neighbors, and then fighting back together. And again, not saying that you need to be a selfish person, but people need to think about themselves sometimes. And think about what you may need, but also what you think about themselves sometimes and think about what

you may need, but also what you need is the same exact thing what your community needs in this moment. So that is why it's important. I always try to bring it back to the person that I'm speaking to or the people I'm speaking to of like, what are your needs and how do we get them addressed? The people in power are not going to do that for you unless you demand it and force it to happen. Yeah.

And it reminds me when you're saying all of that, that like the unfortunate thing, and I feel this too, is like you say, Oh, what can I do to help? And you, you know, you kind of know deep down that you're like, God, I hope you say something easy that I can get done quick, you know? And it's, I know that feeling and I, I, it's a, it's a, it's a feeling that I think a lot of people have particularly privileged people who have if you're a privileged person if you Have secure income and secure housing and secure citizenship and secure partnership with someone of an opposite gender and all those kind of things Yeah, you're gonna be like damn I hope the way to help is just easy and doesn't affect my life too much Unfortunately, it rarely is and so you

Yeah, we're just gonna have to do the hard things Like we're just gonna have to go to meetings and unfortunately, that's an evening That's a six o'clock to 730 event one night that you're not doing, you know Whatever the fuck else you'd like to be doing you're gonna have to introduce yourself to your neighbors You're gonna have to go to rallies. You're gonna have to read a lot too That's another thing that I think about where I'm like it is not convenient. It is not fun I know that we don't want to spend extra time reading horrific shit about what's going on in the world. You're going to have to like, I just think like everyone can find their own way.

Not everyone has to do everything. You can cut out a bunch of that stuff. If you go, I am absolutely not going to a rally on a Saturday afternoon. Okay. That's, that's maybe something you can cut out of your activism. I don't know. You'll have to decide, but yeah, sometimes helping out, I would say even maybe most of the time helping out is like a little bit annoying, a minimum to super annoying and sad maximum and taxing,

expensive, et cetera. We're just going to have to do it. I don't, that's, to the people that are asking this, that are writing in and saying, how do I help? Don't, don't expect the easy thing. It's not just posting, unfortunately. Posting is part of it, especially if you're me. I mean, you have to post because people are reading, but that's just not enough. Sharing infographics on your story is not enough. And so we've got to find ways to do more.

And I'm also saying that to myself. We've got to do more. Is there good news? Is there any good news? We'll cut it if you say no. Um, that family I mentioned about Sagitts Harbor, we eventually were able to help get them released. They got out, they were reunified with their community and it was beautiful.

And that rally that they organized of the 13, 1400 people who lived there, a thousand people showed up and fought, which was incredible to see and witness. And while things are doom and gloom in this moment, people are still fighting and winning. So I think that that's what continues to inspire me to continue doing this work and to fight forward because I know that it's not always gonna be easy. And if I've not had the most privilege of life growing up,

so I know firsthand the struggle of someone not being able to, you know, have enough food to eat, the struggle of being unfortunately about to be unhoused. And I think that when that keeps me grounded in the work that I do to push forward, but if you're doing something that's easy, I will challenge you to look for something that's a little bit more harder because doing shit that's easy, I don't you to look for something that's a little bit more harder Because doing shit that's easy. I don't know if I can curse, but you can we do it a lot Yeah, sorry most of the show actually If you're just doing shit, that's easy all the time. I don't know how you're living a fulfilling life. Yeah

Yeah, I I also wanted to ask there's the in the you know It feels like we're building building towards kind of a natural conclusion of the episode and unfortunately I'm going to dive us back into some logistics because I have more questions. This notion that I've been hearing a lot that like Biden, the Biden administration, this is something the Trump administration is really pushing right now, that I'm noticing over and over and over again they're saying this message of like, Biden and the Democrats flooded the country with illegal immigrants, illegal immigrants, because they want to create a one-party state where they get all

these votes so Republicans can never win again. What is the reality of, obviously I don't think that the DNC is having much, maybe any strategy, but certainly not a secret meeting where they say that immigrants are, undocumented people are gonna win us every election forever. What is the reality of immigration under Biden versus now? What do you make of this talking point? Like, what are we supposed to do with that? Immigrants can't vote.

Yeah. Like literally, they just can't vote. Unless you become an actualized citizen and then you're a US citizen. Yeah. You can vote if you're a US citizen. Right. Other than that, you cannot vote. There is not no like pay scheme that's happening where I'm like,

hey, here's two bucks, go vote down the Democratic line. That's not a thing. It is illegal. It's a federal crime to vote if you're an immigrant. And if you're an immigrant with status, if you're a green card holder who votes by accident, you will potentially lose your status, if you're a green card holder who votes by accident, you will potentially lose your status and go to prison.

So just to be clear also, even if, well, let me break this down. Did Biden, did during the Biden administration, was there an unusually high amount of undocumented people entering the country during that time? So just to rephrase your question, people who were entering the United States under the Biden administration were doing so legally. They were legally entering the United States seeking asylum here. Yeah. Under asylum laws that Trump has gotten rid of. That he's trying to get rid of. They're still on the books and will continue to be on the books, right? Unless Congress removes them. But we also signed international treaties and things of

that sort that we would have to continue to abide by. But there were a slightly higher number of people coming to the United States and it had nothing to do with Biden. Yeah. It was because the world is on fire. Yeah. Governments are collapsing because of our foreign policy. So Venezuela, we have killed them with sanctions. Yeah.

For, and it was actually Marco Rubio's sanctions when he was a senator that actually did this like kill to the Venezuelan supposed to impact the government but it actually impacted the people. So the sanctions that were levied on Venezuela actually destroyed its economy, made inflation incredibly difficult and hard for people to live. Then violence started to escalate there. So people were fleeing for their lives. And if you are someone who is living somewhere,

you will not leave your home, right? Ask yourself this, why would I leave my home if I feel safe? Yeah. So people fled and then other violence was happening in Columbia and El Salvador and many other countries where people are now dealing with choosing do I and my kids live or die and if I want to live I have to leave. And where is there a safe place I can go?

So people did come to the United States seeking their legal right to asylum. I also from what I've read and I could wrong, because I'm not an expert at this, but I have read, I think it was maybe a Pew Research data, that like immigration kind of grew every year from like the 90s to 2007, that more and more people immigrated here, both documented and undocumented, that we had more and more immigrants here during that time that maybe that number tripled or quadrupled like it went up a lot during those years and then 2007 it actually started to fall off or stabilize and then you say that by the Biden administration had more pathways for people that were coming here the those pathways don't give them the ability to vote

no and even if you know and the pathways that Biden created were all temporary. The parole for Cubans, Negros, Haitians, and Venezuelans was a two year program. So you were getting paroled in to the country for like two years or a year, it depends. If you were getting paroled in at the southern border, it was for a certain amount of time. I saw people paroled in for two weeks,

people paroled in for a year for them to figure out their adjustment and relief status. It takes you forever to become a U.S. citizen. If you are someone who is a green card holder, you have to have been a green card holder for at least five years and then you have to go through the USCIS process, which is submitting your application, doing fingerprinting, biometricsometrics a health exam you have to go to Get interviewed all this will take Potentially years and years but even to get to the green card takes you years and years to get there So I don't think anyone has ever become a US citizen without at least 10 to 20 years of

Being in a process to get there and sometimes even when you get to the end of it, you still are not a U S citizen. So the state, so really, truly the situation here is the statement that the Trump administration is pushing so hard. And obviously like this isn't confusing for me, Caleb, I just know that they're lying to support their agenda, but I w I'm trying to like find a way to break these things down. The statement from them is, uh, the Biden administration flew in, bust in, shipped in a bunch of illegal people so that they could have one party rule

forever and they could vote for them. The reality is slightly more people, immigrants entered the country during Biden's administration because of asylum laws, because of policies and things that we did that made their country unlivable or made their situation more dangerous. So we're creating crises in other places then people are coming here to seek asylum some of them are getting it and even through those pathways they cannot vote and if they ever got to a place where they could vote it would be many years from now that this is reality these are the processes I don't think anyone anyone would go like oh yeah it's quick and easy to become a U.S. citizen. Everybody across the political spectrum knows

that that's not true. So the reality is that is just a complete and blatant lie and could not even, you can't even find a way where that could be true. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, that's why it was so confusing. I was like, why do they keep saying this and why do they keep saying, like, do they not? The other thing that we are failing at as a country is education. I do think that if there is one class that we should have

in like elementary, middle, and high school is civics. Like people should know what their civic rights are and even just learn about how people got the rights that they have, right? Like women one day weren't allowed to vote. They fought back and they won their right to vote. The black community in this country fought after years and years of horrific slavery for freedom

and then eventually were freed and eventually got equal rights. But that didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened because there was a fight to have that happen. And then the right to vote. So I think that people don't understand the history. And I'm seeing this happen a lot more now, where people who do are intentionally misleading people

to believe that something else is happening. But immigrants can't vote in this country unless they become US citizens. And that can take decades to happen. Yeah, I feel like there also was this, there was this conception for a long time among people on all sides of the political spectrum that like, yeah, when immigrants come here, they mostly move to LA or New York,

they mostly work in restaurants, or they're in Texas working agriculturally or whatever, but we're fine with it because they mostly don't bother anyone and they work jobs that no one wants. This was like this widespread idea that I think a lot of people, not everybody, there's certainly always been anti-immigrant bias, but that I think a lot of people were kind of on board with for better or for

worse. Then in the last couple of years, I have felt this sharp, really intense uptick in the idea that these are violent gang members who are being allowed to come here and take over our communities. What is the reality? This criminal thing keeps coming up. These are violent gang members who are being allowed to come here and take over our communities What is the reality this criminal thing keeps coming up and I have a hard time? Understanding how people are not seeing that like his whole campaign was like we're just gonna go after the violent ones We're gonna get the criminals and then the number of times I've used air quotes in this episode to be like hey not my opinion I'm my idea everybody but that they were gonna do that and then immediately they're going after people and going well

The crime is being here illegally. Even if you believe that, that's not what you said. That's not what you talked about. What is the reality of crime in among undocumented people or immigrant communities versus every other community? Immigrant in communities where immigrants live. They're safer.

Those communities are safer. Yeah. That's not me saying this. You can look it up. Everyone's using. Those communities are safer. Yeah. And that's not me saying this. You can look it up. You know, everyone's using chat GPT for everything. Yeah. Chat GPT to, you know, use Gronk or whoever you want to use to verify this information and then look at the source. Always click the sources. But yeah, immigrants have historically and continue to be, commit less crime and make communities more safer than cities that don't have them or towns that don't have them.

I think that this narrative of criminality continues to be propelled. It's not a new trick. They've used this historically. They use it against, you know, the Italians, the Irish, the every community that has come here that was villainized and otherwise, that has come here that was villainized and otherized, and then the next community was villainized and otherized, the difference in this moment is that they are doing it in such a violent and aggressive way

that it's actually putting even more targets on people's backs. So what we end up seeing is that people now who are immigrants are being victims of crime Simply for them, you know looking a certain way And we are seeing hate crimes increase. We're seeing crimes against people Increase and then those are the crimes that are being reported many people don't feel comfortable reporting things to the police because of the environment We're living in now. Yeah I also think even if you don't look at the statistics my view of it is like

you think about and I won't say any of their names because I It's it's a it's a very they count on it being a very fraught and emotional conversation But you look at like, you know, there's a handful of cases and names where someone Usually a young woman has been assaulted or killed by someone who happened to be undocumented this is a thing that has happened and they hold these up and they parade these names every single day and every single week. And you look at, if you really think about that in context and you go, the reason we're hearing those same three, four or five names over and over and over again,

and not a long list of different names with equally horrifying stories is because it's not happening. Like the crime rate where that is the story that they can use is so small that they have to keep propping up the same cases. That to me alone as a thinking person is an indication that like this is a one-off that they're trying to paste onto an entire community as some much larger thing that's happening

that isn't occurring. Yeah, I don't disagree with you. I think we're, and I think I know which situation you're referring to. There's, I often tell people, there's like over 350 million people who call this country home. Yeah. And you were giving me one example

of one really effed up thing that happened. Horrible. Horrible, horrific. And instead of centering the victim or centering the actual type of violence it was because it was and since I'm thinking about it was gender-based violence. Yeah. Instead of like trying to address gender-based violence what you're doing is saying no is the entire community. Well this is what it always comes back to by the way in all these conversations, also about the conversation about trans people as well.

It comes back to men being horrifically violent and then us pasting it onto any other community and any other conversation than just being like, we do have a problem with men being violent in this country, in the world, but that's the conversation we never have. And it turns into this other thing where it's like, yeah, there are so many people who live here and crimes do occur and that

is horrible. People do get hurt. People do hurt each other. But in actuality, if you really wanted to talk about that, I could point out, I could, there's a, a, I count on Twitter that this woman does this where she posts about sexually based, like sex, sex offenses that happen by people who work in churches. There's a lot more cases like that, but we would never go, hey, everybody who works in churches needs to be monitored and deported. We would never do that. But because it's a community of people who often look and worship and are different than

us, now all of a sudden it's like we need to mass deport people for this one case that they kind of keep trotting out. As a thinking person, I hear that over and over and over again and go, well, there's a reason they only have the one to talk about. Yeah. And they will continue to have that one to talk about for decades moving forward because that's how bad their narrative is, right? Is that they won't have more fodder to use, they continue to circle back to that one specific case.

And again, we have seen this time and again, it's the same old playbook of villainizing people so that you have the attention focused on one set of people as opposed to the people who really need to be focused on. And then it right now is no different than times before but it's even more gruesome right now because the risks are so high for everyone not just immigrants, but everyone who causes country home. Yeah. Yeah, I think Yeah, they definitely do have a narrative problem and I feel you know, it's sometimes we avoid talking about those things at all. People who are people on the other side of that issue, people who maybe you would call

yourself left, whatever. We avoid talking about those things at all because they use it so effectively as a gotcha. Like, well, then explain this to me. I'll happily explain this to you. That's a one off horrible thing that happened. Someone did something awful. Their status happened to be that they were undocumented. And in any other presidency in the history of this country, we would handle it the exact same way.

They would face criminal proceedings, they would get due process, and then they would serve time and be deported. Nothing has changed about that. Trump is doing nothing differently in regards to those cases. So holding up those cases, case, holding up an instance of that or a handful of instances of that if you can find them. There is no different approach to this. We have always handled that the same way. You have never, there has never been an administration

in this country, and never will be, that would say, yeah, we like when someone commits murder. That's not, that doesn't exist, and it's being painted in this way of like, finally someone who cares about this. It's like, we have always had a problem with that and dealt with it accordingly. I don't understand how that's even working as a cudgel that they're using.

It is, it's effective. People on that side of things are really enjoying the use of that story as a kind of like, we cornered him into a, it's like you didn't, nothing has changed. We're having the exact same approach to that then as we do now. Yeah, and I think another part of this narrative that really isn't highlighted often is the

fragility of certain people in this country, right? And sometimes people thinking like, oh, well, you know, Stephen Miller is someone who is would be identified by any organization that does civil rights or a hate group monitoring organization as a white supremacist. Yeah. Point blank. And I think he has been labeled that several times before. It's all race politics for him. Yeah. So by 2042, this country is going to no longer be a white majority country. It's going to be a community, people of color majority country. And he doesn't want that to happen. Yeah. So people of that mindset are in this administration and are also part of the apparatus that has helped this administration become what it is. So it's in their interest to continue to create division and fodder like this, so that people are

like, oh wow, they're really bad people. When the grand scheme, it's like really bad person, one person, one thing happened, and we never see any, when records get clarified, if there is misinformation that then gets unveiled, or, you know, people hear about it in court and then court decisions happen, you never hear about that anymore. So if you say that we live in a democracy, right, and we believe in all these laws that make our Constitution, and say that our Constitution is a foundation for our republic democracy. When we stop actually abiding by them, when we ignore them, do we still live in a democracy? Well, no, no, it's yeah, that's yeah, this is the issue. So I guess, sort of in conclusion, what what should everybody do? Like if you're somebody listening to this episode,

and you came for a comedy podcast, whoops, my bad. But if you're someone listening to this and you're like, hey, I really care about this, I really don't want people ripped from their communities and families and homes, I really am not about this like, really dystopian fucked up way that Trump and his entire administration are talking about immigrants documented or otherwise. Yeah, what would you tell people to do?

I think people, regardless of what your political affiliation is, right? Because more than not, I really do believe that, again, everyone has a lot more in common than they don't. Step up. I think that's the piece that's sort of missing in this moment is seeing a lot more people being outraged visibly, publicly, and calling out their elected officials. Your members of Congress are the ones who are allowing a lot of this to happen. Holding their feet to the fire, demanding that they answer the questions that the fire, demanding that they answer the questions that you have and demanding that they answer the questions that your communities

have and telling them what's happening right now is unjust and humane and you don't stand for it. Demand that they have a town hall and then organize your friends to go to that town hall and voice your concerns there. What we're seeing is that elected officials don't want to do town halls. They don't want to face the people that voted them into office because they know that they're doing what the bidding of Trump as opposed to the bidding of their constituents who they were elected to serve. So I think

the thing that I always tell people is that there is always something you can do. If it is calling your elected official, if it is supporting work that's happening on the ground, supporting organizations that are doing the work, or being like, nothing's happening near me, I'm going to start organizing with people that I know and then we're going to start organizing other people who are also impacted by what's happening so that we can all fight back together. Yeah.

Well, Mara, thank you. This has been very informative. No, thank you for having me. I'm so glad you could do it. It means the world. Thank you for being on. No, thanks, anytime. That was a Head Gum podcast. Hi, I'm Rachel Billson.

And I'm Olivia Allen. And we host the podcast. Broad Ideas. Yes, that's now on Head Gum. On our show, we chat with people like Brittany Snow, Lucy Hale, Kristen Bell, Margaret Cho, Jake Johnson, and so much more. And we talk about all the things you would talk about with your best friend.

Like your periods. And mental illness. And the food you ate for lunch. Most importantly. Listen to broad ideas on Spotify, Apple podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.