So True with Caleb Hearon - Nico Carney Believes in Evolution

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

Welcome! Today’s guest is the hilarious Nico Carney! Nico and Caleb talk community engagement, winning over difficult audience members, the decline of smart people, evolution, and so much more! Join our Substack for ad free full episodes, early access to merch, our community chat, and more! https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/ Follow Nico! @nicocarney Follow the show! @sooootruepod Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud Try Domino's Parmesan Stuffed Crust Pizza today at dominos.com Find exactly what you’re booking for at Booking.com. Book today on the site or in the app. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at https://RocketMoney.com/SOTRUE Try TruFru today - the Blue bags with fruit found in the freezer aisle! Shop now at https://Fabletics.com/sotrue to get seventy to eighty percent off everything when you sign up as a new VIP Go to https://www.squarespace.com/SOTRUE to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code SOTRUE. So True with Caleb Hearon is edited and engineered by Nicole Lyons. Our social media manager is Virginia Muller. All episodes are filmed in The So Trudio at Legitimate Business World Headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. A Wave series. wavesportsandentertainment.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Wave. I read this book called Transgender Warriors by Leslie Feinberg. That's like a history of trans people through space and time. I'm trans. I'm not a fetishy guy or something. No, he says, don't listen to him. Caleb wanted to get a really fetishy guy on the podcast to talk about trans people. I said, Nico, you can come on, but you have to talk about your trans fetish.

Today's episode is sponsored by Domino's. Thank you, Nicole. Let's start the episode with a thank you to Nicole. Thank you, Nicole. Nico, how's it going, dude? Hey, what's going on? Thanks for having me. I'm good.

I'm excited to be here. I've been enjoying the So True studio, enjoying our time. We're talking about the SoTrudio. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we're getting into it. I hear there's a different thing every week, so I got to... There's a different thing every week. God damn it.

No, we're going to fix it. We're going to stay on the set this time. Yeah. What's been going on with you? Tell me everything. Damn, I've just been enjoying the spring weather, trying to, you know, get outside, trying to hang out with people, trying to just like, I don't know.

try to I'm trying to live in the moment while also not feeling so much the collapse of the universe all all at once and the collapse the collapse of at least society is seemingly upon us yes impending doom all that stuff but I'm trying to just

you know take it day by day and enjoy my life and make other people's lives better hopefully you I mean my perception of you I know that perception is not always reality but my perception of you from the times that we've been around each other and from what I see of you I feel like you're really hanging out. I feel like you're seeing people. Like, I feel like you are seeing people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like to hang out. Like, you know everybody, you're around. Like, I feel like you're getting

out there. That's so funny. Okay. Well, I mean, I think so. Yeah. Like I, I'm definitely like pretty social. I've been playing a lot of pool with my friends. I mean, that's a lot of what I've been doing recently. Are you good at pool? I've gotten good. That's not. I know that's right. Let's go. Brother hell yeah. My buddy Jesse and I, we have been playing a lot of pool. She's between tech jobs right now. She's a comedian as well. But she has finagled her way into these like six figure tech jobs. She's like sort of qualified for. Nobody look into that. Nobody, Google her.

Nobody look into that. And so she and I have like similar just like weird, you know, like free time during the afternoon. So we've been going to some bars to play pool and we got really good. And then we were, we did a tournament at the Johnsons and Bushwick on Tuesday. And it was like, I mean, it's such a, like, I've come into so many bars over the last five years, you know, to do stand-up open mics or whatever bar shows and stuff. And I don't feel like uncomfortable walking into these spaces. It's like whatever. Like my anxiety for that is like is kind of gone now.

then I walked into this pool tournament to sign up and I was like, oh no, what if I'm bad? Like, what if everybody's really good? It would if I'm bad? What if I make a fool of myself in front of all these straight guys that have gloves on? Not gloves. Not gloves. Not putting their own pool stick together. Are you putting your own pool stick together?

No, I'm not. But there's guys that were coming in and putting their pool sticks together and like they got the gloves on. One guy just had just the fingers. That's just the fingers. Unfortunately pretty fucking sick. Unfortunately, I find that pretty fucking sick. Well, I turned to Jesse and I was like, I feel like that's like an undiscovered like lesbian sex toy.

Like just have it excrete like some lube. That's like so come on you guys. Somebody get on it. Two fingers, two fingers gloved. Two fingers gloved. Just walking around with it. That's pretty cheap.

You see it the girl she's at the club. She's got two fingers gloved. You know what's up. You know what's up. You can get those fingers if you need them. Yeah. She's down. She's community finger.

She comes with her own loob. It's good. That's so fucking funny. Dude, I am bad at pool and I feel there's this pool bar that I love in Kin City called Chartreux Saloon. Shout out, show truce, love you guys. I will go in there sometimes just to fuck around with my friends. I'm bad at it.

I know I'm bad at it. I'm not trying to be good at it. I'm not practicing. I just like it. Then these guys will come in with their little stick in a bag and start putting the stick together and start chalking their hands. And I get fucking terrified. No, it sucks.

Because they're also old, they're like old timers. Yeah. These are like old Kansas City guys that have been there forever. People that take it seriously. And the Midwest is big for pool. I've been doing some research. It was like, it's like kind of where it started. Hello.

Yeah. And I've been to Kansas City? I actually have, wait, I flew in there because I did, oh my God, what was the name of that college? I did a college show. Is it Colgate? No. It was really small. Oh, it's going to bug me.

I'll figure it out, I'll tell you later, but. It wouldn't have been Avala. It was like, I want to say it might have been a historically women's college. Oh, my gosh, yeah. It was Jewel Williams. No. God damn it. Outside of Kansas City.

It was like, maybe, and I drove like an hour. You drove an hour? Oh, oh, oh, it was Columbia College. it was in Columbia. God damn it. I think it's where Leah Dillaria used to... We woke up Women's College, Columbia, Missouri. I think it's this.

Could be. Stevens? Oh, God, it's like, I can't even... Oh, it has to be Stevens. It was, like, a school with, like, no kids. And they all came to the show, which was cool, and I love them for that. God, I think it was Stevens.

It was, like, one of the first times I ever ran an hour was for these... And it was so crazy because I was, like, in the middle of Missouri, and I was like... And I had never been before. I'm, like, an hour from Kansas City. it's like a one stop town kind of place and it was like it was the

Hampton Inn I was staying at and then the Walmart next store and then the college was somewhere is away and so I like was like I guess I'll just go to Walmart to get like my food for dinner because I like didn't want whatever other thing was around and so I went into this Walmart and everybody was staring at me and I was just like I was feeling so like oh am I being clocked like what's happening like people they know whatever and I was like

they probably have never seen a stranger they haven't seen a stranger in this Walmart in a long time so they're all like who is this guy like what's going on? You don't live there. Yeah, no, totally. And then I was like, oh, okay, I'm safe. I'm just, um, I'm just walked into this town and nobody knows who I am, yeah. Truly, it's still like that over there. It's, and it's hard

to tell, yeah, it's like, are they also transphobic? Probably. But like, do they know what a trans person likes? Absolutely not. No. They're like, look at that. Young man. Yeah, yeah. What is he doing here? We don't know him. Yeah, everybody here is blonde. We don't know. Oh my God. Yeah. Well, you should come with me sometime. You need to do a show there. I would love to. Yeah, I definitely want to do,

I love going into the Midwest. It's like, some of my favorite places to play, because I feel like, I think the Midwest has a lot of folks that are, like, they're really smart and they're, like, left-leaning generally in their politics, but they're also just, like, grounded normal-ass people who aren't, like, I feel like sometimes in New York or L.A.,

you get to shows, and you're like, why is everybody overthinking everything? And, like, everybody's overly intellectualizing. They're placing themselves in the material too much. They're not just here to, like, have fun. I don't know. It's like, whenever I'm in the Midwest, I'm like, these are just normal fucking people

who, like, want to have a good time and also aren't going to, like, say something weird. Well, it's mostly, I feel like, about my favorite leftists in the country are in the Midwest. Yeah. I have always, I've, like, I've said for many years that, like, the most important things I learned about, like, organizing, I learned in Southern Missouri, because then I moved to Chicago and I was totally, I was just shocked by the, um, the kind of leftist discourse that I encountered

that was so infighty and, um, also, like, theoretical that it was like, it was really smart. It was a bunch of people who went to really good schools and they're from really cool places. And they're really, really, really smart. but I was like oh all the leftists that like brought me around and taught me about organizing worked like real jobs and had like a class angle to everything they were talking about because they didn't have a choice and I realized how important that is at least to me and my view but that's what it is is a lot of the people that are coming out to like your show or my show in a like a Midwestern city they work real jobs and like actually still wonder how they're

going to pay their rent and it's not to say that is not happening for leftists and queer people on the coasts but I feel like it gets to a way more intellectual place because it's been a lot of like sitting around and talking and like dissecting. Whereas there is a more like humble like pragmatism to the Midwest and South. Like that is real. Yeah. Yeah. And it's always so interesting.

I don't know. I've met more people that were like went to Ivy League's working in comedy than I think if I had been a doctor. Like it is fucking insane. It's their little rebellion. Oh my God. These folks, they are just coming out of out of every nook and cranny of the Ivy leagues.

But anyway, it's always so funny to me. It's like these, I don't know, it is a lot of, like, theory and just like this, I don't know, really, um, esoteric ideas about these things, but it feels like so far removed from, I don't know, real life or just real people that when you go actually, like, out to these places and talk to people. And I always really enjoy talking to people after the shows, like, again, like, I really like seeing, like, trans guys that come out to my shows and, like, just, like asking what their life is like in these other places that, like, I just like, in my, I don't know, I could feel fearful of living in or whatever. and it's just always really like, who would be like, these are just like, cool, living their life. It just gives, I don't know,

it gives me, I don't know, some reprieve from some of the headier nonsense that comes with like living in a coastal place that's, you know, very uppity about its own

sense of self, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. And very like self, I mean, I think all the time of that, who was it, Jamima from Girls, that someone wrote to her on Instagram and was like, what's your advice for unconfident young women?

And she was like, I think you guys might be thinking about yourselves. much. Yes, yes. I think about this all the time that I'm like, the number of times I have to tell myself that, that I'm like, I'm like, oh, what, you know, what is X, Y, Z thinking about me or what is the opinion of me doing this? And it's like, you're thinking about yourself too much. Dude. Who cares? Get over it. That is like what I'm literally like this week, for some reason, I've been so in my head about stuff and just like, I keep having this thought pattern where I'm like, literally think about anything but yourself. Think about anything about yourself right now.

Like think of anything else right now. Find one thing that's not you to think about right now. Oh, it's so god-off. And then I'll just like somehow it'll creep back in. I'm like, why are we doing that again? Why are we doing that again? It's horrible. Yeah.

It's hard. I mean, I don't know how you feel about this, but like just like working in this industry in this career, like, especially as a stand-up, I don't know, like, because so much my material is anecdotal or it's about my life. Like there's like an element to my work that requires some like introspection and, like, thinking about myself. But then it gets so dangerous when you start to think about like the stuff you can't

control or just like it starts to creep into like career stuff. And I find myself finding like trying to stagre balancing. of being, like, smart and planning for things or being industrious in a certain way with, like, career, but, like, not overly worrying about crap. Like, I just, like, can't control. Yeah. Yeah. 100%.

I feel like, I was just talking to a friend yesterday who's, like, really, she's a entertainer, and she's got a lot going on, and she's really burnt out and, like, having to, like, pair back, like, immediately. Yeah. Like, you know when you get to, like, a mental health, like, a cliff, and it's, like, oh, I got a pair of stuff back now. Like, I have to cancel things tomorrow. And we were talking about it, and I was just, like, you know,

know, like, because part of what she was saying that I feel like a lot of people that do this kind of work experience is like, oh, I don't feel like myself. I don't really know who I am right now. And it's like, right, well, part of the job, if you, like, are in comedy and, like, entertainment is just, like, mining everything that happens to you all the time to see what's interesting and relatable and what's different and unique and what's weird and what's weird. And like, you'll go to the grocery store and experience the same thing that someone who isn't a comedian experiences, but you're the whole time being like, oh, that was weird. That's kind of funny. Like what if I wonder what that person's like point of view is and like oh why when they said that to me I wonder if they meant this or like who do they go home to like you like you start pulling threads on everything to try and make something interesting or to try and like figure out the most interesting thing about whatever just happened to you. And so yeah, you start living this like meta existence where you are a character in a story and you really have to push back against that. Yeah. And like let things happen and then revisit them later. Totally.

And I think like social media has made it all the worst. Like, I don't know, just to say this, I feel like we all have this, like, sense of who our, our public self is, even if you're not a public person, even if you're just, like, you know, you have an Instagram account. I feel like there's this, like, this, like, for the last, you know, decade and a half, there's just been this splintering of the actual self and the, and sort of the, you know, public self of who we put out in the world in this, like, social media lens. And I think it's just made us all so much more aware of the way that we come across or what

our opinion. Just like to, like, look at our lives as such an outsider as well. It can be so dangerous. I don't remember whose quote this was, but I've seen it a couple times and said, like, don't do the, I think it was like, Marcus Aurelius or something. Don't quote me on that, don't check it.

No, quote, quote, check. But it was like, don't do yourself the disservice of looking at your life all at once. And I try to think about that a lot because that feels like what that instinct is to like, yeah, metatextually like discover. I don't know, just think about too much about like who I am as a person versus who I am as a,

I don't know, an entity or brand, whatever those things are. But I think people are doing it on all levels of, of that spectrum of fame from like the most famous to like people. to like people that are just on Instagram. I feel like it's really such a brainworm that, I don't know. I'm interested to see how the,

that changes us as people in general. Yeah, I am also interested. But with a, I'm so worried about it. I don't, the internet, I'm like, we really should have stopped at a certain point. Oh, man, yeah. We keep going. Oh, man, yeah. I'm like, stop, just stop.

Hey, but the Metaverse is shutting down. Hey, that billion dollar flop is shutting down. Any questions about that? I love that. Yeah. Anybody, anybody make a visit to the Metaverse? Yeah, I was there this morning. Yeah, right, right, right.

Paying my respects. I was laying flowers. We have a lot of friends there, don't you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. In the Metaverse? Oh, my God. You think you're okay, Liberty in real life.

You should see them in the Metaverse. Well, I program them to only say what I want. So they all, I mean, anytime I tell a joke, they don't even laugh. They just go, yes. Yes, they she, they she, they she. Yes, King. Oh, that's so funny. What, you were talking about, um, earlier you said something

that I wanted to talk about. You were, you said like, oh, yeah, I'm trying to, like, I'm trying to get out and see people and pretend that, like, society is not collapsing.

Yeah, yeah. How, what's your, what's your relationship with happiness right now? Are we happy most of the time? No, yeah. Yeah, I think I'm a generally pretty happy person.

I, I don't know, I'm definitely, like, I, I have realized in my adulthood that I'm more of a depressive than I thought I was. Like, I, I think depression's a bigger part of my life than I thought it was,

but, but I'm also very happy, generally speaking. I think, I don't know. I find a lot of happiness in connecting with my community and being with people and being with friends and I find a lot of happiness performing. But I think like, I don't know, it's just hard right now to not feel like, you know, things are coming crashing down. I'm sure people are loving to turn into a comedy podcast and hearing about that. But it just like is what it is. They're okay. This is what they're hearing all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're whipping up some out lottes right now as they listen. But yeah, no, I don't know. I think I'm generally pretty happy. But it comes in waves. I think it's like every day is a battle to try to be happy in a way. Yeah. 100%.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that makes total sense to me. And I feel the same. I feel like there's this mix of like, I also, I'm always wondering like, what am I gaining slash how am I helping by knowing the intimate details of every atrocity ongoing? Like, I feel like people will be like, don't look away. And I'm like, right. And I'm not.

I am totally tapped in. what's going on. I'm trying to talk about it. But I'm also like, do I need to see every photo of every horrific thing? Like, I'm trying to find the balance of like, yes, I absolutely believe that we need to know what's going on and be talking about it. And I'm trying my best to like, be a good person. I'm trying my best to be a good person all the time. I'm doing the best I can. And also, I don't know, some of my most miserable friends, God love them, are the most tapped in. I'm like, I think you could know 30 to 40% less and still be, a good person, a good citizen, a good neighbor,

without making yourself so fucking sick and miserable everything. Do you know what I mean? No, totally. I mean, it's always the people that are most online that are the most sad. And the most like, yeah, just be fucked up by it all. But I've been trying to like just like whenever I get into that space where I'm like freaking out about stuff. And obviously it's like justified freakouts of, you know,

because of what's going on. But I've been recently trying to just like be like, is there something I could do right now? Like, do I have some old clothes? I can just like go donate. And that would maybe be a moniker of impact in a positive direction, even though there's a million things coming this way. I really want to get involved with...

I used to work with kids. I used to coach kid soccer for my day job, and I liked that. I liked it a lot, but I want to... I don't think I want kids, but I like working with them, and I want to get more involved with, like, trans youth in the city or something like that. Like, I feel like that's, like, an actual way that I could get involved. That would be, like, a positive, you know, I don't know, fight against all the shit that's happening right now because it just feels, like, so overwhelming all the time to be, like...

everybody needs my donations, I don't even have money myself. Like, this is crazy. Like, it's just like, yeah, like, everybody needs money and everybody needs help all the time. It's like, where do I even start? So I think, like, I'm just trying to be better about getting really involved in, like, my local communities and finding, like, yeah, starting from the smallest place that I can actually, like, make some tangible impact. That's it.

Yeah, I think, I said something I like this on Substack recently, and people, it was met with varying degrees, as are all things that I say. The internet, you're kidding. Yeah, no shit. Some people really related to it. Some people thought it was the worst thing's ever been said. But I have found in my own experience that, like, the people who tell me they're the most hopeless are often the most privileged, and they're doing the least.

And I'm not saying that I'm doing the most, but I'm saying, like, the people that I know that do the best work, like my organizer friends that I'm like, you are a legitimate hero. I come nowhere close to doing the good work that you do in the world. and I am trying every day to get even an inch closer, those people have the most hope of anyone I know. Yeah. And they see the worst shit, they're making the least money.

They are every day in like truly dire circumstances trying to like save lives. Yeah. And they have the most hope. And that's just the thing that I've observed that I'm like, but it's because every single day, I think it's the thing you're talking about where it's like every single day

they're doing stuff that makes the world immediately at least a little bit better for somebody. Yeah. And then my friends, I've got friends, you know, that have like very, well-paying jobs in cushy lives and they're not they're not like a marginalized person living. They don't have like a intersection of multiple marginalized identities

living in some dangerous place. And they're the first ones to be like, oh God, the world's a dumpster fire. We're fucked. And I'm like, you do nothing. Like this is a total privilege for you to sit here and say this. No, totally. I'm not saying you're wrong. It does look like a dumpster fire.

Hey, we do seem to be pretty fucked. I'm just saying to like sit there and like spout that is not ever the behavior I see from the people that are doing the best work. No, totally. You know what I mean? It's kind of like that. I don't know if this is a real fact or if this is like an old wives tale.

But again, nobody check anything here. Check this, quote this. I have no facts today. Niko Carney. Everybody stop. But like that adage that like, you know, somebody who, if somebody's asking for money on the train or something like that,

it's more likely that the person who like doesn't have a lot to give will give them a dollar than like somebody who's like in a business suit is not going to give them any money. And it really is that idea of like when you know what it feels like to be close to the bone, like you want to help more because you understand and empathize. Whereas I think people, that have these cushy lives, like they just,

they're like perfectly, I mean, they are systematically positioned in the middle to feel comfortable so that they are the buffer between the elite and the rest of the working class. The whole point. It's the whole point, yeah. So it's like, yeah, you feel this guilt and this cushion because you've been systematically set up

to be here to feel this guilt, but not enough to, like, do something about it. Anyway, I could rant for days, but I, like, I've been reading a lot of history books to, like, ground myself in some, like, you know, that things have been worse and people did more when it was harder and, like, that kind of stuff,

and that's been really helpful too. I read this book called Transgender Warriors by Leslie Feinberg. That's like a history of trans people through base in time. I'm trans. I'm not a fetishy guy or something. No, he says, don't listen to him. Caleb wanted to get a really fetishy guy on the podcast to talk about trans people. I said, Niko, you can come on, but you have to talk about your trans fetish.

Listen, listen. And I've been begging to get an audience to listen about it. So thank you for, yes, to everybody. Yes. But anyway, it's a really great account of, like, Leslie Feinberg. was like wanting to like look through history to find themselves in history was essentially the conceit going in

and it was really cool to read just like oh we've existed across you know civilizations and time periods and continents and it's just like so cool to like actually be like yeah all this stuff that's like this is new and this is like fake shit it's like no that's the part that's fake and made up like and you know I don't know for me

it's like really helpful to just like ground myself in this like a tethered reality to other human beings throughout time and space that like is very hopeful for that kind of stuff yeah that makes so much sense Yeah. You and I have a, I feel like a pretty, you grew up in Savannah.

And then now you're like, you know, a comedian who's out touring and living in New York. And like I feel like we have had a lot of similar experiences. Like the way you talk about things, I'm like, yeah, I feel that too. Yeah. Like what is your relationship to Georgia and to home at this point in your life? Yeah, I feel like I've had an evolution with it because when I was a kid, it was like, I got to get out of here. Yeah.

I gotta get out of here. They don't understand me. I gotta get out of here. I'm too different. They're too different. And it's a thing of like when you're young and especially I think like for, I don't know,

I mean, I'm sure a lot of different types of people, but as a trans person like, I'm starting, I'll bring it up again now that I brought it up once. It's this thing of like, I don't know why I'm different,

but there's something different about me and nobody here understands me and that, and I think that's an experience a lot of kids have in high school anyway. But anyway, so that was kind of my mindset and I was like,

I got to get out of here. And then I went to, I played soccer all through school, so I played in college, and so I went to Wake Forest, which is where I played, which is not that much different from Georgia. It's like a very, a very wealthy school in North Carolina, so like it was a lot of them more of the same. But so I was still kind of feeling like this, like, I got to get out of there. And then I was back home with my folks in Savannah during COVID.

And I like had such a new appreciation for the city and just like, I got to meet some people that were like not my parents' friends or not my friend's parents and just like a new idea of like what the city was made up of and stuff. and it was just like a really eye-opening thing to do, like, to experience at 21, it would be like, oh, like, I, like, lived in this bubble within this city that I felt very oppressed by. But there's so many other types of people that live here, and there's obviously so much history to Savannah. And so I just had, like, a much broader appreciation for just, like, what the South represented and, like, all the erased people that get, you know, erased by, like, the northern elitism of, like, we should just let them fuck themselves over and, like, yeah, go legislate yourselves into the dust.

And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, there's a lot of people that live down there. So I think I've had, like, a broader appreciation for it. and I like going back to the South and like I like I like going home and I like to I used to feel like resentful of that like sort of identity of being like I'm from the South but like I've come to really appreciate it because I think I want to reclaim that among this like sort of I don't know world where like so many of these like

whack people from the from the fringes are coming in to try to like claim Southern identity is one thing when I think it's much broader so I don't know I feel like I really I don't know I really I like I like that's a part of And it's also like living up here now. It's like everybody's from fucking Connecticut. It's like at least I got something interesting. Exactly.

Don't you feel like an undercover agent a little bit? Totally. I'm like, I have a superpower. I understand. That is how I felt after 2016 that my whole life, up until then mostly I had felt like, oh God, I'm like fat gay and from middle of nowhere in Missouri. Like this is, these are the least interesting things. I'm like, I want to care.

And honey, it gets worse. I'm like, maybe it gets worse. And then everyone after Trump got elected, all my friends on the coast started being like, we really got to understand the middle of the country. And I was like, I understand it. And I felt like with the first time I was like, no, it's actually like cool that I'm from there. And I know about that place. And you're right.

You guys should have been paying attention. Yeah. And so I felt like, yeah, I had a total reclamation and started like, yeah, I started like loving home actually and started feeling like, wait, no, I am. I guess I just had the realization that I was letting them win. Sure. But I was like, you don't actually get to kick like me and my friends out of here and, like, claim this as your own like weird Christo-Fascist. Like, we live here. Yeah.

And, like, we're important to hear. And if we did leave here, you guys would be fucked. Yeah. You can't do this without us. No, totally. I feel like that's true. The Kansas city that you love is not the same without all the trans people making it cool. Totally.

And, like, that is reality. Like, you can't, you just can't do any of this without us. You need us, and we, like, the same way that, like, queer people living in cities need farmers that they don't agree with on stuff. Y'all need us, too. Yeah. Like, we all need each other. And that's being, like, obscured by these rich billionaire psychopaths that are, like, sending out, like, bat signal hate messages to us. Yeah.

But we do all need each other. RBC Training Ground has discovered potential in over 20,000 Canadian athletes and counting. Your story could be next. If you've got the drive, they'll help you find your path to the Olympics. Let's see what you've got. Sign up for free at rbc trainingground.ca. Yeah, no, and it's, I don't know, it's just like it's given me such a more, I think, well-rounded, I don't know, view of people because just like you just are used to having

grown up with all these people that you don't agree. with at all, like having to, like, have gone to school with these kids forever. And I don't know, it's just interesting. It's also been, I mean, I will say on the flip side, it has been a little tough at times to, like, you know, I've definitely lost relationships because of people's political leanings and, you know, how that intersects with my identity and things like that. And it's like, it can be really frustrating, I think, to, like, be like, I see this place as this beautiful opportunity.

And, like, you know, I find that, like, a lot of the North is a lot less diverse than they, they were like, oh, we're, like, really great to black people up here. I'm like, you don't have any black people up here. What are you talking about? Like, you know, it's like, yeah, there's actually people. Or you live in a separate part of town and y'all don't interact. Yeah, it's like, or exactly. That was shocking to me.

Yeah. When I'm coming from Kansas City where, look, everybody was poor. White folks and black folks were hanging out all the time. Right. And the Mexican folks. And like, everybody was together at the same barbecue restaurant. And then I moved to Chicago. And the black folks and the white folks, by and large, separated intentionally by

interstates, not talking, not hanging out, not being in the same spaces. and I was shocked. I was like, oh, this is like supposed to be like liberal heaven. Right. What is going on? Right. And it's like,

yeah. And it's always, anyway, so all that to say, like, I just find it really, I can find it frustrating on the flip side of that argument

of like when, like, I can see this beautiful, diverse place that could be so much more. And like, you're just hanging on to your creature comforts and you're, and you're, you know,

this middle zone where you get to feel comfortable all the time. And I, I just, so it makes me frustrated at times that some people down there really double down on the comfort of just being like, I live on a river

to be politically engaged. And honestly, if I did, I wouldn't either. Living on the river's part of it. Yeah, I would love to live on the river and not be politically engaged either, but yeah. Something about living by a body of water makes a whole bunch of people go, I'm done. I'm not, I'm not, hey, it's 5 o'clock somewhere. It's 5 o'clock always. That's so funny.

You said something earlier that I am coming back to since then and have been thinking a lot about lately, which is you were like, oh yeah, I think a lot of kids in high school just feel like this regardless. Yeah. If you're, like, even if you weren't trans, that you're, like, growing up and feeling artistic, even in Georgia, you'd be like, I gotta get the fuck out of here. Totally. And I'm thinking about that so much with this, like, driver's license situation in Kansas. About my buddy, I have a, my buddy's a trans guy.

He lives in Missouri. He passes most people in his, not most people in his life. A lot of people he interacts with at work. He's a mechanic. Don't know. And he's not out to anybody at work. And then this fucking license thing happened in Kansas where they revoked everyone's driver's licenses. He's on the Missouri side, so he still has his license for now.

but of course we all have like these big fears that it's going to happen there. Yeah. But he works in Kansas a lot. And so he was forced to come out to his HR supervisor, which is extremely unsafe. Yeah.

She, we don't know, like, we didn't know how she was going to react. Yeah. And luckily she was really cool and she was like, you know,

like don't tell any of the other guys. Like, I got you, we'll take care of it. We'll figure it out when the time comes, which is so lucky. Don't tell them when they're under a car. What?

Boom! And then they'll have little birds flying around their head. And then they'll transition. There'll be a nightmare. Yeah, no. The whole, I mean, we're going to have to get, what a health plan we're going to have to get.

This cannot be a trans mechanic. No, no, no, no. But, yeah, like, he goes and fixes these people's cars that, like, would probably did vote against his rights. And if he gets his driver's license revoked, like, it's not even this, like, I don't know, these debates turn into these, like,

weird conversations that are so unrooted in pragmatism. It's like, no, this guy just needs to get to work. Like, that's the other thing. It's like, okay, so we take a bunch of people, driver's license away, okay, now nobody's getting anything at the coffee shop. These people can't get to work. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, it's just like it is to your, it's just not practical at all.

It's just like, we're just getting a bunch of people who now have to like try to figure out how to get the bus on time and that's like not helpful. I don't know. It's just, it's just, it's just, like, it's like, this isn't even something that's going to, even if you didn't want trans ideology out there. Like, people not getting to work is not going to help. It's the, yeah, the thing that it makes me like. so sad and pissed off about is I'm like,

this is actually, it's painted as this like unrelatable thing that is nowhere near your community. And I'm like, no, it's the most relatable thing imaginable. You're a teenager who doesn't feel loved and wanted. You're barely making rent and you have to be able to get to work. Like, these are the most relatable things in the world. You have three to four situationships that are untenable.

Hello, your polycule is going through a tumultuous time. And they are, and there's a lot of infighting. And that's a big part of the community. fighting yourselves and how is that going to help anybody? I think every farmer in Kansas has had a situation where their polycoal got out of control. Okay?

Yes, they also have multiple wives. It's okay. Someone wasn't doing their chores. Someone wasn't being communist enough at the book club. Like, we've all experienced these things. These are universal. I know. I just, I mean, I was just telling my friend Jesse when we were playing pool together night. I just really hope that this year's Dyke March gets out

off without a hitch. Oh my God, I'm going to knock that over. I was curious what would happen with the water, but I just wanted to see what would happen with it. I'm just too finity over. Wait, what's happening with Dyke March? I don't know. Every year, it's like, they're like, we have just announced that we are doing the Dyke March again, and there is a fight happening between the organizers. It's like every year without fail, they're like, there's some sort of infighting going on.

And it's like, what if the, what if the theme of this year's March was we're all going to have fun? Yeah. What if we were all going to have a good time? Well, I feel like, was it, was it? Which March was it? It was some pride thing that they were like, we're doing it again this year, of course, and we are having the cops. like was that part of it like there was like I think like in the early I mean to be fair this is all people being trying to be respectful and empathetic I think and it whatever gets out of hand but I think it began maybe with like there was uh yeah maybe something with the cops I think there was something to do with masking like post COVID like it was like everybody to wear a mask or if there was like a masking section I don't know

anyway it started off as those sense of things but then it always escalates to just like people like I mean it's like so many people's exes are probably working on this thing it's like it's just gonna it's a hot bed. It's hot bed. Look, my only goal for this year is that the Dyke March goes off without a hitch. Listen, and I always have a great time, but I'm just like, and what were we fighting about? Everybody down here in the sun. Like, having a good time. People get their shirts off. This is great. Hello. That is so funny. Yeah, I mean. Like, maybe I'm naive, but to me when I first went for the first time, I was like, the most powerful thing that's happening right now is that I'm looking around and seeing a bunch of people like me, like with their shirts off doing like incredible things and just like being out here kissing each other. I was like, this is healing so much in me. Like, whether or not we are, I don't know, abiding by every possible, you know, moral,

upstanding thing we could be doing here today. I think there's a lot of good being done. Let's just have a good time. That is, yeah, we're splinter. We got to stop splintering over stupid stuff. Like, there's all the, like, the language policing and the, like, who makes fun of who in the community. I'm like, do we want to be in community or not?

Yeah. Everyone needs to relax. Yeah. Everyone needs to get cool quick. Yeah. Because it's not helping. It's only making it worse. It's splintering us.

And they're on the other side, by the way, they're completely unified on everything. Of course. They have a, on the right wing side of things, they have somebody who comes out and says something that almost none of them agree with. And they go, yeah, that's crazy, but he's ours. It's like, can we get some out on the left? It's literally like being like, well, that's my uncle. Like that's their attitude towards everything. That's our senator.

I know. That's our senior senator from Utah. Sorry. Even with them all kind of coming out against, like, even that, it's like not even working. Wait, I was going to say something about, oh, I was going to say, despite all we're saying, I will still be coming for gay guys. I'm not sorry about that. What are you coming for gay guys on? Their behavior.

Yeah, what are we doing? How do they speak? How do they speak to me? How they speak? Right in my head. How are they speaking to you? Directly above talking to over me? Talking to another gay guy.

No, I'm just fucking around. I've been doing a joke up top where I, when I ask if there's any gay guys in the house, and then they'll say, you know, they'll cheer. And I'm like, oh, I love when there's gay guys in the audience because they have to listen for once. And I think that's nice. Dude, Carly Kane has this fucking, you and Carley, yeah, you know each other because we've all hung out. I feel like I've met her once before maybe but I'm familiar yeah

she has this fucking hilarious joke where she was doing it all the time opening for me on tour which was disrespectful where she's like I'll butcher it but she maybe we'll have Carly send a video of her doing the joke and we'll put it in right here but she's basically the joke because she's like I love hanging out with my gay guy friends because I don't have to say a word

I wake up the next morning I have no anxiety and I'm like why don't I feel weird about last night's hang oh I didn't speak once and she's like my gay guy friends the best because they don't care about anyone else. And she would tell that joke every night on my show, and I'm like, I'm your best gay guy, right? That is so fucking funny.

You're like, okay, I'm the aforementioned gay guy. Sorry to, yeah. Number one gay guy in your life, I think. I'm chatting, and I'm about to chat for another hour for you guys. So, not beating the chatty allegation. So fucking funny. Y'all, when it's time to order pizza, you got to call our friends at Domino's.

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Be on the lookout for those blue bags with fruit found in the freezer aisle And for their new Greek yogurt Thank you True Fruit for sponsoring this episode Boy these are tasty We had some of them off camera and we were just delighted weren't we They're really really tasty That's so funny What is the makeup of your audience?

Who's mostly in there? I get a good amount of trans people I get a lot of lesbians, a lot of bisexual women and then I'll get like some straight people and then I'll get like parents of trans kids sometimes too that are like really excited about you know that kind of stuff there was a guy in the front row for I have no reason by the way oh my god so I have two stories so there was a guy in Philly was front row in my show and I was like and he was like very burly looking and I was

just kind of like okay did you know what you're coming to because I never know with like clubs and stuff like that because like I'm doing like my audience is like I'm very grateful everybody who comes to the show but I'm not like so like sellout level or whatever so I'll get some like random people that just show up and I'm always like, okay, well, I hope you like this. But then he stood up at the end and he had a parents of trans kids or whatever or protect cancer shirt on it.

I was like, and I was like, okay, this is awesome. But I was at it, I did a benefit, I did Heartland Pride in Omaha last summer, which was really cool. It was a cool event. And they did like a little meet and greet kind of thing after for the acts that were going on. And this little trans boy ran up with his two trans dads. And I was like, I found the epicenter of my audience. Everything builds from here.

Like, brother, brother, brother. The perfect family. So anyway, so the two trans dads and the trans son. And I just like talk about being a short guy on stage. And one of the dads was like, he kept being like, he's not that short. Why is he saying that? He's not that short.

And the dad was like, I didn't know how to tell him. Like, he has no understanding of like what short is. He has two trans dads. Like to him, like height is like not. It's meaningless. It's like, yeah, it's like, we're the tallest people you know and we're 5'3. Like, it's like, well, yeah. So I get a lot of that, which is cute, yeah.

That's so fucking funny. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess mine's a lot of bisexual women. They're really in there. I mean, they're good ticket buyers and I love them. They buy tickets because they have good jobs. Bisexual women, quiet as it's kept, they are the backbone of this nation. They are the only thing with, I mean, our GDP is all because of bisexual women.

These women are saving our lives. They're saving our lives. They really are. And we need to be thankful to them. They really are. No, I have all love to the bisexual listeners. I'm a big fan of yours, too. Big fan.

Thanks for coming out. Thanks for buying tickets. Yeah, yeah. That's so funny. No, it's so funny. I don't know. There's some, I don't know. I feel like there's been this movement in comedy

over the last several years of like this more bro-y, whatever. I mean, this is all things we know. But it's always so interesting to me when I think about just, if you're looking at it from the most, like, business-minded, capitalistic lens you could. Of, like, I want to sell out and have, like, sell-out shows and stuff like that. Why would you appeal to cis straight men? Like, they don't buy tickets for themselves.

They don't have a lot of friends. They don't go do group activities. Like, invest in audiences that are going to invest in you. They're embarrassed of earnestness. Like, go, like, I, I'm like, yeah, I like that girls come to my show because they bring eight friends. Yeah. That's eight more tickets that I wasn't going to.

You know what I mean? It's like, why would you invest in a bunch of guys that are going to be single ticket buyers and sit by themselves? Like, that's crazy. You're bad at business. You need to be nicer to girls. You're about a business. Yeah, seriously.

One of my favorite things, and I sometimes wonder what this says about me that I love this so much. I think it's just that I like to win people over, but one of my favorite things is I can, I'll go out in a, I'll go out on stage if I'm headlining, and I can see immediately the guys who are only there because their girlfriend made them come,

and they are not thrilled to be there. And my favorite thing is to win them over. And I'll get them. I'm like, I can get you. You're going to try to stonewall me, but I'm going to get you. Yeah. And I love that.

Can I, okay, I have thoughts and questions on this. So do you feel like, okay, because I have this thing too where I find like I get, I get so nervous about like the straight guys ahead of time and I feel like I want their validation and this like this like deep-seated thing in me. Do you feel like you ever fight that about that? Or just like, hey, fuck this.

I don't care if these guys like this or not. Or do you feel like you're like, oh, I want to win them over? Because I know they don't like it. And everybody else here likes, I don't know if I'm making any sense. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this. Thinking about do I want to win them over because they're the straight guys? Right, right. That who's approval I wanted when I was 12?

Is that what's going on here? Is this about my dad? You know, basically? Totally, totally. What is this? And I've spent a lot of time thinking about it. And I genuinely think that, I genuinely think that it's just that I want to, I want to get the hardest person in the room.

Like, I want the person who wants to laugh at me the least is who I want to win over. It happens to be those guys. But, I mean, it would mean just as much to me. It's just not as easy to spot. I know. It would mean just as much to me if it was like, there are plenty of like hardcore, like, tender queer leftists that don't love me all the time. They think I'm annoying.

They think I'm too, I go too far. I think I say things I shouldn't say. They are, they're a different kind of opposition to me than straight guys. Straight guys just think I'm like, they don't think of me at all or they think I'm, I don't know, like, they just can't imagine that I'm someone they would think is funny. Yeah. I would want to win either of them over. In the room, out in the world or on the internet, I don't, you can't play the same game

because it's people, it's manufactured outrage in order to get clicks and attention. There are some people that are not going to like you just because it's the unpopular thing to do and it'll get interest. in the real world in the room, it's different because funny is funny. Yeah. And I don't know. So I really, I think that it's that. But also, like, sure, maybe part of it's that I just want these guys to like me.

Because I have that same thing where I'm on stage and I'll be like scanning the room. And then there's like one dude who's like towards the fronter who's like kind of eye, trust doesn't care. And I'm like, okay, I want this guy. I want to get this guy. Like I keep looking at him. I want him to laugh. And I'm like, oh, this next one will be able to get you. And they're like, whatever.

And it's like, there's so many people having a great time enjoying themselves. came to see me wanting, like, I should give them my attention. Not yet, but it's like, I can't stop. Because that's the illness. It's like, I got it. It's like, if everybody in this room doesn't think I'm funny, I'm a fucking failure. You know, and it's like, what is that? Well, that's the, this is the whole thing about what we do.

It's so sick. It's so sick. The whole reason we're up there is because we need who, who needs a room full of people to show up and spend the night of their life laughing at you. Like, that's insane. It's like, I came up with these little thoughts. I thought you'd like. What do you guys think?

Yeah. Isn't this true? About me, but. Sorry, this is mostly about me, but I... So this is kind of my life story. I hope you guys were cool to spend $40 to hear that. It applies to you guys in some ways. Yeah, no, it's insane.

It's a completely insane endeavor, and I've... Yeah, I definitely want... But I enjoy... We actually had a whole joke on our last tour where we, like, did a shout. We did, like, basically a moment of silence for the straight men that had to come with their girlfriends. And it was so much fun.

They loved it. I mean, they were like... Well, they loved to be talked about. They love to be talked about. They love to be addressed. They love to be addressed in a gay space, I find. They love to be addressed in a gay space, and it also gives them permission

These guys will come in. Well, they're so, I mean, look, I don't want to be too mean, but they're so insecure and scared, and I get it. And it's, in some ways, their fault because they perpetuate it. And in other ways, it's just, like, what we do to men in this society. Yeah. That, like, they have to come in with their arms crossed. Everyone needs to be visually signified that they're not gay.

They're not happy to be here. And the second you give them permission, like, you say, like, hey, I know your girlfriend brought you and you don't want to be here. They're like, they're like, they're like, I'm like, I'm not loose. They're like, girl. Do that one again. You nailed that one, girl. All of a sudden they feel so comfortable

being like, okay, everyone knows I'm straight. I can relax. No, totally. It's so funny, though, because it's like, I'll find, like, if I'm playing for a straight crowd and what I'm going to ask, like, are there any trans people here? Like, maybe somebody will be willing to say it, but a lot of times people are either just,

if there is a trans person, they're probably not going to, like, shout out, and that's totally fine. They don't need to do that in a room full of straight people. But then if you're in the opposite, you're around a bunch of gay people in the audience, and then, like, any straight people here, they're like, let's go! Okay, well.

It's like the reverse of this is not happening. Like people are not as excited to announce themselves. Anyway. But no, I like when there's straight people in the audience because I do find it is like a good place to, it's a good place for them to be hearing about things that are otherwise being talked about so negatively. So it is nice that they like, you know,

I like when they venture in and then like, yeah. And I try not to overthink like playing to them. Yeah, that's the line to walk is like, I don't want to play to you, but also I would like to expand your horizons a little bit. Like I'd like to be, I'd like to imagine that you come to, your girlfriend drags you out to this show.

You didn't want to come, but she didn't want to come alone. You kind of have to do it. I'd like to imagine that the next time she asked you to go see a gay comic or a woman or a trans person. Anyone that seems outside of your wheelhouse that you might be a little more excited and go, oh, last time it was actually pretty good. Yeah. I'd like to imagine that that's maybe some effect of all that. Yeah.

But whatever, you think God's real? In some form. Yeah, what form? Oh, man. I think probably like some sort of, non un embodied thing like a light or like energy

some sort of like goodness energy that is existing that is not I don't necessarily know that it's like all knowing or all powerful in the like I think it's powerful in the way that like human connection is powerful and the energy is powerful but like I don't think it's like this you know Judeo-Christian tradition

of like there's a moral understanding and that I think that that is something we map on to God, but I do believe there's something that is why we're here, connects us all, there's some sort of, some sort of life force.

And I was raised Catholic, so, like, I always have that kind of in the back of my head, but I don't really feel, I don't really feel that, like, any sort of human idea of what God could be is, like, I don't even think we can possibly conceive what it is. Like, I wonder if it's something that we can't even fully,

in this form, like, see. You know, there's all these things out in front of us that like other animals can see or some shit. In here, yeah. Yeah. Like right in front of us. Yeah. Right here.

The tension. Specifically right here. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think God, I think like God is, like you're saying like an energy and a thing that everyone has felt. Mm-hmm. Everyone has felt God in whatever that is. But I think the only thing humans could have ever done with that feeling is what we have done,

which is mapped humanity onto it. Right, right. And been like, well, first of all, it's a boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And second of all, he's violent. You know what I mean? He snatched his... Hello, he's hot, he's violent, he's white.

It's like, okay, yeah, humans... The humans in power were always going to map as much of themselves as they possibly could onto this energy. It doesn't mean the energy isn't real. Maybe he looks like the king of England or something. No, no, I think he's white and thin. Maybe he looks a little like me. And I think if you're mean to him, he'll kill you.

It's like, okay. And he doesn't want women to talk, and he wants me to have eight wives. Yeah, I don't know. I think he wants me to fuck a lot and for you to be obedient. That's kind of what I've experienced with him. He told me. Yeah, I'm talking to him. Yeah.

And then people go, well, why isn't he talking to us? No, we don't worry about it. He's very shy. He's really shy. He likes to talk to us. He has favorites. And, yeah. But no, I think, yeah, I think it's, I don't know.

I go back and forth on whether or not I think it's like intentionally nefarious. Like the way that we got here, I think certainly it has been used that way. But I'm like, I just think it's a misunderstanding of the energy and what's going on. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a version of religion that's really positive. I think, like, I just don't trust a lot of humanity. and the current power structures to, for that to, I mean, I just don't know that there's a world where, like, religion in its best form and capitalism can coexist.

Yeah. I don't think those things, I mean, capitalism is the devil. I think, I completely disagree. I think that God is a capitalist. Well, I mean, I think the energy, wouldn't that be funny? I'm like, the energy I'm talking about actually wants you to be a landlord. The energy I'm talking about is the invisible hand. Hello.

That's moving the markets. And it's trickling down. Thank you. Reaconomics, big at the true, at the so true. Oh, I'm a big reganomics guy. Love him. He was charming. If you give Caleb your money,

he will trickle it down to you. I will trickle it down to you. Pretty easy. I'm doing my best. Easy. It's trickling down. Nicole and Michelle, trickles are coming.

They're waiting. Their paws are open. They work for free right now, but they're both on internships and so his chance. All my staff is on internships currently, but once they prove themselves. You guys are getting class credit, right?

Yes. Yes. Speaking of, I'm a little bit pissed that chance isn't even here to see me or anything. He didn't want to, he actually, he called in sick this morning. Okay.

Yeah. He said somebody's turned. Yes, he threw up. God, I said. He said, Nico, what? I said, carny. He said, let me Google him. And he said, I'm not feeling well this morning.

I said, what? He said, that's giving gross to me. Yeah, he's giving gross. Oh, chance talks. Yeah, that's giving gross. No, he's in Los Angeles on his other job. He went and got another job. I know.

You can't buy loyalty. You can't buy loyalty these days. Let alone for a class credit. I mean, I give this guy a job. I've known him since we were teenagers. and he goes and gets another job. In Los Angeles of all devious cities he could be in. At all things comedy.

You're going to go work for Bill Burr, a guy you don't even know? Sick, disgusting, chance. Some guy from Boston, Jesus Christ. And leave this in. Imagine working for some guy from Boston when you could be working with your buddy. I once saw Bill Burr at this Netflix as a joke event

where he was clearly paid to be there and he was just pacing and the bodyguard was like following him and I was like, oh my God, I wonder how much their money they're giving you to like just pace in the corner of this pool right now. He did not look happy to be there, but I would love to get paid to be miserable. That's one of those things that he wasn't,

his team wasn't able to strike from the contract. I know, right? They struck six things that he didn't want to do. And they're like, they need you at the pool. You gotta walk back and forth by this pool. Gotta walk back before. This is a sticking point for them, Bill. It's really important to them.

It's really big that all the Netflix have to have a good time and see you in person. They need to see you at the pool. Yeah. Badly. Yeah. Yeah. God, it is like that. It's so fucking funny. That it's like, well, I'm going to not have fun when I go do that. And like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, they're like, it's not about that.

They just need to see that you exist in the, as a person. Five minutes contractually. We'll start the timer as soon as you step in the door. And then at four minutes and 59 seconds, you're breaking for the door. It's like, Bill. They got him.

Bill. Bill, you got to talk to the developments of animation. Oh, my God. Bill, you need to talk to these execs. Yeah. Oh, man.

What a dumb industry. Because they're bored. I know. Yeah. Well, and the number of things that in this career path that we've chosen, the number of things that revolve around somebody... Hey, it chose me, but that's fine.

It chose you. Well, I had to choose it, just so you know. The number of things that revolve around this really simple fact, that there are a bunch of people that are deeply, incurably, terminally uncool, and they need to feel like that's not true. So much of this industry spins around that. I agree.

I agree. That they have no talent, so they became somebody near the talent. And we have to make them feel cool or else everyone's going to die. Oh, my God. Yeah. How do we get on to that? Anyway, do you believe in God? Is that like a big part of your, do you feel that's a big part of your life?

Not a big part of my life. I go back and forth. I've talked about it a lot on the show. It actually probably, depending on how many years I do this show, I imagine it'll be pretty interesting to watch all the times I've talked about God and see how it evolves.

But because I feel like it changes all the time. I believe in, I think there's a power in the universe that generally pushes us all towards good. I think people are fundamentally good. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, I think that we're mostly good. I think we want to be good.

I think we know when we're doing bad and we feel bad about it. How that comes out is different for different people. But I think we are predisposed to be good to each other. And I think that having that belief means that something must be going on that's bigger than individual, like, actors. Yeah. And yeah, I think that I struggled for a long time with putting God to it. And it's so funny, my friend Tara was just making fun of me recently because she was like, I'm doing a prayer zine. And I was like, I don't pray.

And she was like, what do you do? A prayer scene. Zene. Like a zine about prayer. She's like, I'm asking a bunch of people about prayer and what they think about prayer and what they pray for. and I'm going to do a zine about it. And I was like, that's cool, but I don't pray. And we had this, like, really kind of intense back and forth

where I was like, yeah, I mean, I am a part of the universe. I think about the universe. I try to contribute to the universe. I try to put good into the universe. I think the universe gives me good back. But I specifically wouldn't call that prayer on purpose because it has such religious, like, rewarding behavior kind of energy. And I don't believe that.

Yeah. And she was just making fun of me because she was like, for all intents and purposes, you are a spiritual person, but you fight it so much, was kind of the energy. And I'm like, yeah, I guess so. But, yeah, I think God is certainly not a person, certainly not raining down, like, blessings on people. Yeah.

That doesn't make any sense. That makes, that would account for, that would not, there's no way to me that we can say that God rewards people for being good when there's so many good people suffering. Yeah. It just makes no sense to me. And the most vile people are at the top of the pier. And the prosperity gospel.

I mean, yeah, the idea that you get good things because you're a good person or even that you just, I struggle when people, when something is going well for me and like even fans of mine will be like, oh my God, Caleb deserves this. I'm like, no one, there's no such thing. Yeah. There's no such thing as that. Yeah. I am very, very lucky. But there's no. To say that I deserve to make money in such a frivolous way is inherently to say that people who are working really, really, really hard and barely making ends meet didn't deserve better.

Right. You can't have one without the other. Right. And that's fucked up. Yeah. And then you get into the whole head to space. I don't know. At least I will get into this whole guilt of like, and does a comedian deserve to have anything?

Like as compared to like, you know, doctors and nurses and all these people who like really are actually helping people and other. I mean, not whatever. There's ways that we are helpful too. But I get in that space too. But do you feel that like God is something that like comes up in your, like, do you feel that that's like a constant, like an anxiety or something you're thinking about like all the time? like it's like uh do you feel like any like religious from like as a child like a child like any religious oppression kind of stuff like does that feel like it's still part of you not in day to day like I think like when I am moving through the world day to day when I'm like should I do this or

should I do this like when I come to like a moral decision it really doesn't even get to God for me that I'm like this is just there's almost always a clearly right thing to do even if there's like personal consequences and I generally try my best to just be like despite what it means for me this is the right thing to do. And I try my best to just do that because I would want someone to do that if they were in my position. So it doesn't usually get to God.

But when I get to God, like when I get anxiety from growing up and being around the church, it's always about death and what happens afterwards. It's really not about what I'm doing here. I'm pretty clear on what I'm doing here. It's death and what happens afterwards that really makes me ill.

That makes you anxious. Makes me completely sick. Dude, the way, I've been talking about this so much lately, but the way I can't watch this fucking dinosaur documentary. There's this dinosaur. were a show on Netflix, narrated, which is beautifully by Morgan Freeman, of course. It's, they start ticking back the time clock on Earth, and it's like, Earth, 300 million years ago, I could throw up. Yeah.

The idea that the idea that, truly the fact that someday humanity writ large is not, guaranteed, is not going to exist. Like, I am, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I hate that. Okay, yeah. And also, yeah, I mean, I got really, I was of course stoned, but I got really, really high the other night I was thinking about like the way that we sit here and speculate about like what it was like on Earth 300 million years ago when like, you know, I don't know, tadpoles ran the fucking world or whatever. People are going to be. They were running around with their little legs.

Hello, and now they've got legs. What the fuck did that come from? What are you talking about? Well, that's the thing that always gets me when they were like evolution, they're like, and then at one point, then they grew legs and they walked on the ground. And it's like, like overnight, like one guy. Not overnight. Over a million years. Right? But there's like, what do you mean? Like, how?

Like smaller legs that became bigger legs that could walk or like one day it's what legs? Like what? I don't. I don't know. What's it born with legs? How did it develop the legs? I guess it rained for a million years at one point. Yeah. And I'm fully believe in evolution, so don't come from me. But I'm just like, I want to see it. I want to see it. I want to see it. Show me.

And a lot of it's guessing. I want to see it get legs. A lot of it's guessing. Like they'll be like, they'll be like, this dinosaur was six stories tall. And I'm like, you don't know that. You were not here. Sorry, they're like, we have the bones. We didn't have stories back then. What are you talking about?

Baby, I'm not, look, I'm not a denier. I believe in evolution, but I would like to see it. Yeah. I wish I was there. Yeah, I want to know when they went from sea to land. That jump is just pretty, pretty seismic. And I want to know how we got here. And I'm really, really worried about that.

And I think, I think, yeah, someday we're not even going to exist at all, and all of this will, it's just so, you can't, you literally can't think about it day to day. Because when I think there are times that I'm about to respond to an email for some stupid thing I don't give a fuck about that someone needs to hear from me. Sorry, Michelle. Someone needs to hear from me about that if I just for a second think like humanity won't exist someday, it unravels me for a week.

I'm like, I can't, what do you mean? What do you mean? I'm sorry to see you know. Haribow really needs to hear back about. Shut the fuck up. We're not going to exist. I just, it's really tough. You know what will though is a Haribo gummy.

Those things are indestructible. Yeah. That thing will be, it'll be that. It'll be there. And the remnants of this podcast. Yeah. The So Trudeo. So true deal.

So true will live forever. Well, obviously, this is all, you know, it's not, it's, you know, not radioactive. Any of that. I'm sure what's the word I'm even looking for? Cut this out. Cut it. Keep it. Keep it.

Okay. Keep it. Okay. Keep it. Keep it. People should know I'm a human being, too. You're a human being. I say that all the time.

Yeah, that stuff trips me out. Okay. That's when I get to God. Okay. Mostly. Because I don't really, like, so my girlfriend and I have talked about this a lot because she was raised agnot, like, with no religion in the house. her parents were both raised Catholic,

but kind of like didn't care for that and didn't want to raise her that way. And then I was raised Catholic because my parents were afraid. And, um, I feel like there are things about it that like, of course are negative. There's, like, definitely like, I deal with a lot of guilt and shame

and all those things that Catholic people do. But I think I have like this like kind of, I don't know. I just believe everything's going to be fine. And if this ends and nothing else is not whatever. Like, I don't know. I guess I just don't, it just like doesn't bother me that.

much. But my girlfriend, like, she, because she wasn't raised with any religion, I think she just doesn't have, like, a roadmap or just like a, this thing in the back of her head that's, like, something is there and it will be okay, because she wasn't given that as, like, a child for framework for how to think about these things. But she is a lot more anxious about, like, death and afterlife and these types of things, whereas I'm just kind of like, whatever, I don't know. Yeah. I guess it depends on the day. Yeah. You know, but sometimes I'm like, I don't ever want the party to end. And other times I'm like, this has not been a party. Yeah. We can go whenever we need to. No, time.

Totally, totally. You know? I mean, sometimes I'll have this thought of like, I, God, am I stuck in this perspective for the whole time? Yeah. I got to have this outlook on life for the entirety of it. Like, I really wish I could snap and be somebody else sometimes. This has been my biggest source of depression throughout the years. I've really, it's, the reason that loving myself was such a cure to my depression is that I really had to fall in love with the life I got.

Then I'm like, this is the perspective I get. I will always be from where I'm from. I can change my mind. I can learn new things. I can have new experiences. But I will always fundamentally be the son of the people I'm the son of from the place I'm from. That is just who I am.

And the thing that depressed me the most in my early 20s when I was like super depressed was I was just like, God, I'll never get to be all these other people. I'll never get to understand the world the way they do. And that really fucking, it still stresses me out. I'll like meet someone and I'm like, God, you have such a cool, or even like I'm unable to understand the way that you view the world. Even sometimes when I meet someone that I'm like,

I fundamentally disagree with. the way you view the world, but I would be fascinated to live as you for a little bit. I'm just so, like, kind of sad that I can't be, like, I want to be, I want a chance to be everyone, and I just get to be me. And I think the thing I'm also, like,

responding to myself to give back to what we were talking about earlier, is like this constant, uh, self-narrative or whatever this is that I'm doing that I'm, like, thinking about it and obsessing about. And it's like, oh, you know, if I was in another, I would be doing the same fucking thing. I'd be doing the, like, you little human thing of like,

am I okay? does everybody like me? And it's like, it'd be the same if I was anybody. It's like, that part's not going anywhere. So, like, I don't even, I'd be running from the same thing over and over again. Yeah, and the real truth that, again, I can't spend too much day-to-day time with, but it's just that there is really, like, sorry, sue me, I'm a hippie or whatever, but there is no me.

There is no, like, there really is just like, we're like, I don't know, I'm just like, there's just one big energy and we're all playing out that energy in different ways. Yes. But, like, it's senseless to even worry about the self that way. And thinking about the self too much is so destructive. to being like a productive and loving part of this whole project. Yes. When you get obsessed with the self.

So I don't know. I go back and forth. I know. It's tough though. I'm so fascinated by it though. And I'm just fascinated by like all of our relationships to the idea of the self and to bring back up what I was saying earlier. Like we like social media and stuff like that.

I'm so fascinated by people the way that they like put themselves out there in all kinds of ways and just like what that means for how they see themselves. And I don't know. I just find it such a fascinating relationship that we all have. Because to your point, it's like, it doesn't exist. We're all just sort of making up this idea of the self myth and like what we are constructing of ourselves and like every day making like, this is real and this is a thing. But it's like it totally isn't.

It's just like we're all. Just a way to pass time. Yeah, really, truly. Yeah, the creation of self is just a way to pass time while we're here. It's like, it's nice to be like, my family, my house, my job, my life, my. It's like, we're just truly just killing time. And it's the most fun way to do it. I love it.

I think it's the best, it's probably some sort of like evolutionary thing that like this is Our brains decided this is the best way to spend this time is to just be like, me and my things and how I did it here. And I'm like, okay, rock on. So then I need a new pair of eggs really badly. I need to be a consumer. It's the same part of us that was like,

I'm here, so don't let the lion eat me. And now it's like, I'm here. I should get some hugs and a coffee. I'm a guy who gets hugs now. That's me for the next couple years. You know, they're comfy. I like the trim on those. That's really nice.

You know, they're really comfy. I put that trim on there myself. I went down to the fact. Actually, I said, can I put him on these? They said, we only have kids working here, but sure get in there. Yeah. And that was true. That was true.

You said, hey, get out of there. I said, hey, go take a break. Take a smoke break. Here's a candy cigarette. Get out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gave him a real cigarette. They're working for God's sakes.

Well, yeah. I mean, they deserve it more than we. I know you're seven, but you're working. Go smoke this real cigarette. Those little nimble fingers. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't. Actually, I didn't give him a real cigarette.

I gave him tobacco and papers. Give a man a fish. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Give a child some Lusies and now you're leaving my cigarettes. Teach the child how to roll. Exactly correct. That's so fucking funny. Nico, what's so true to you?

So what's so true to me is we all need to be reading more books. Whoa. What kind of books are you reading? Right now I'm reading a book called Valencia that's a novel about a woman, a lesbian living in the 90s in San Francisco. It's total lesbian romp. It's very fun. My girlfriend read it and gave it to me and I really enjoy it. But I just, I've been reading a lot more recently. I grew up reading. I read a lot as a kid. But I find that I'm really trying to take my attention span back. And I think that like phones are just have fucked us up so maybe irreverably, but like definitely in a direction.

And so I'm trying to take back some of that like mental energy. And like I find that reading is one of the few things I can do that makes me actually sit somewhere and be like I can't, I literally can't do anything else, but hold this book and read these words. I find a very grounding. I think it actually like lowers my cortisol. and like gets me more calm. And I also think too, like, I don't know,

I just read so much stuff on the internet or the way people post. And I know, like, there's a vernacular to the internet, but I'm like, we are losing language so badly. People are speaking in this, like, new age internet speak that I just don't find very exciting, interesting, attractive, boundary pushing, really. I find it's a lot of, like, sort of memetic speech

that's just, like, repeating other people's things, which is, like, what humans do. But anyway, I like to read, and I like to read things from different time periods and just look at the words that they would have used. And I don't know, it feels like it's connecting to this sort of human language that's, I don't know. Anyway, so for all those reasons,

I think more people should be reading books. I think so, too. It really is obvious. Like, I have been thinking a lot the last couple of years about how, like, even in the downfall of, like, the conservative movement and how bad it's gotten that I'm like, conservatives used to be, even though hateful, and I disagree with their worldview, smart.

Like, they used to be, like, they used to, like, have, like, theoretical frameworks and, like, they used to, like, write, like they would write really beautifully about their hatred at least. And now that's completely devolved. Like our dumb people used to be like, the least educated people used to at least like speak beautifully and like be able to, like articulate thoughts a little more like easily.

Yeah. And now I don't know. Our dumb people just sound so dumb. And our smart people even sound kind of dumb. Myself included. Yeah. I catch myself saying things. I'm like,

for all intents and purposes, I should kind of be one of our smart people. I've like gone to school. I've read books. I'm like, people are listening to me talk. And I find myself saying things that I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I don't mean like ideas.

I mean, the way I say them, I'm like, it's giving fascism. I'm like, why are you talking like that? I know. It's like you're saying around enough gay people for a long time and you're like, we all got to go back to school. Now.

We got to go back to school today. Break up the gay guy friend groups. Yeah. Break up specifically gay guy friend groups, but gay people in general break it up. It's giving go back to school. It's giving go back to school. Yeah.

I, no, I totally. Yeah, no, it's, it's pretty wild. And it's like, to your point, it's like, yeah, like, conservatives now, they're, like, you know, eating Tucker Carlson out of a trough. And it's like, you used to read a memoir about Andrew Jackson, you dumb fucks. So, at least, at least get back in there and read a 400-page book about the destruction of the universe. Yeah. Yeah.

Used to be like, well, whereas the founders intended for marital relations to occur between a man and a woman, now it's, it's like so disgusting. It's like, no boys in the locker room for the girls. It's like, okay, we have lost, we have lost our touch on this, bare minimum. It doesn't make any fucking sense. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't make any sense at all. I just, I'm like, like, reaching for more activities in general that I can put my phone away and, like, not feel like I'm doing screen time or all that kind of stuff,

because I just think that that's rotting my brain, even though I'm trying actively not to let it. It's so rotting our brains. It really is the phones. There's no way around it. There's no way. We've gotten so used to the conveniences. The lies I tell myself where I'm, I just, I've got to stop. I've got to, I have to get back to the dumb phone.

I know. Do you have a, do you have, like, a, like, a dumb phone, like, like, app? Is it like a full other phone? Here's the deal. I've recently learned that the reason I can't... Okay, so at one point I had, I kept my smartphone and I got a dumb phone. Separate dumb phone, different number.

I was using the dumb phone. I've said a lot on here. I was treated like a leper and a pariah. I was border... I was almost stoned in the streets by my loved ones. Everyone was trying to kill me. Of course. They were outside my house with pitchforks and Molotov cocktails.

Okay, the dumb phone was not accepted by my community. I was cast out. Green messages. I was cast out. They hated it. They were like, can I text you this picture? I'm like, you're going to have to email it to me. Like, it was really, really tough for everyone involved.

Email they have on their phones. Of course. You have it on your phone. Just email it to me. I'll check it later on the computer. Like, I don't know. Lightsaber it to me or whatever the fuck you guys still do. I'm off the grid.

That's not me. Yeah. They didn't like that. So now I'm like, okay, I want to get a dumb phone again and I want to just switch my SIM card back and forth. Like when there's days. Sure. Because like when I'm traveling, there are things I need.

Like, I do need to be able to order an Uber sometimes. I do, like, that is the reality of my life. Yeah. be on the dumb phone. And if I could just put the SIM card with the same phone number in the dumb phone, everyone else can deal with the green text messages. They can call me.

I'll be fine. I think I can get my community to embrace me while I have dumb phone. Yeah. But I have a fucking ESIM in my current iPhone. So I have to go, I have to make time to go to the phone store and go, I want an iPhone with a SIM card

and I want the SIM card to be able to, and then I want you to sell me a dumb phone and I want to be able to move the SIM card back and forth. And I don't want to hear anything about it. But right now I have an ESIM. It's a whole thing. I know I have an ESIM too. And then, by the way,

You go into these fucking phone stores and you ask them for help. I went into a phone store recently. I was murderous. I said, can I please do this? They said, oh, we can't do that in the store. You have to do it online. Then why the fuck do we have a store? Yeah, why is there a brick and mortar if I can't get everything damn done here?

This shit, this has come. In New York City of all places. This shit has gotten angry. Nothing makes me angrier than when I can't get something done in person in New York. It's like, why do I live here? Why do I live in New York? I have to call someone? Why the fuck are you here?

What do you do? I walked by a pizza star. Stop. A pizza place? in my neighborhood the other day. It was venture capital. It probably. Wednesday at 8.50,

they're shutting down shop already. They can't be. I looked around. I was like, am I in Vermont? I'm in Toledo. Like, what the fuck? This is New York City.

Nico, can I say something? Nobody wants to work anymore. I mean, I'll say it. It might have been a queer own business. I'll say that. Hello. Hello.

I'll say that. What do you have sober bingo to get to? Keep the pizza shop open. Well, you got to get the polycule on the tandem bike to get over to sober bingo. This is disgusting. Stop it. Get me a break.

Make me another slice. Stop it. I couldn't believe it. You're doing mocktails at pottery? Open the pizza shop. It's terrible. I'm also trying to get on a dumb phone vibe, though. That's my goal as well as to get off the phone.

If enough of us powerful in the community kind of came together and did dumb phone, we might be able to make a real change. I think so. I think so. Because I'm trying to get like a little flip phone or something. I think we should have stopped with the Blackberry. That's my hot take on it. Nico.

Nico, Nico, I've been saying this. I think that's the perfect. I think it's the bell curve because it's like... Because that was it. It was the best version. That was it. We did it with the backberry.

Why did we keep going? I know. I want to go back in time and tell everyone you don't know how good you have it. Stop now. That's the most you're going to want. Turn back. You got email, you got internet,

you got maps if we need it. You got the little roly ball. Not a screen that made you want to look at it all day. No. You felt like a cool business person? Yeah. I remember when I got a black, I got a blackberry when I was like, I don't know,

like 13, 14 or something. And I felt like I was a publicist. Go for Caleb. I was like, I was like, yeah, go for Caleb. It's Caleb here. You've got Caleb. Oh, no. Oh, you need Caleb? Just a second. Hey, it's Caleb. 10 million or I don't get out of bed. Goodbye. That was my, me with my Blackberry.

Like you didn't hang it up at all. It was awesome. I just slam it down. You could slam it down and it wouldn't do anything because it was indestructible. It didn't matter because it was made out of titanium, I think. Yeah. God. You want to play a game? Let's do it. Okay. Nico, I'm going to read you 15 statements.

You're going to tell me as quickly as you can if what I just said was true or false. Brother, you get 10 or more correct. We're going to give you $50 U.S. dollars. You ready? This is the highest-paying podcast in the world. It actually is. Denver is one mile above sea level. True. True.

Hot Wheels came out in 1968. False. True. Dell Computers is older than Apple Computers. False. Otters hold hands when they sleep. True. Savannah George's nickname is the hostess city of the South. Sure is true.

True. Napoleon Bonaparte was born in Paris. False. False. Corsica. The currency of Japan is the yen. True. True. True. There are three theatrical...

There were three theatrically released Jimmy Neutron movies. True. False. Just one. There's zero gravity on the moon. True. False. Wake Forest University's newspapers, old gold and black. True. True. True. Penguins live at the North Pole.

False. False. Only the South Pole. White travels faster than sound. True. True. True. The Berlin Wall was torn down in 1989. False. False. True. Fuck. Australia is the smallest continent. True. True. The first FIFA World Cup took place in 1908. False.

False. 1930. How do you do? Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. I appreciate the tailored questions. Dude, you were walked in.

I was ready. I was chance. Even though he didn't show up today, he did still think of you. All right. Well, you know, he got some surface of the questions about my hometown.

Yeah, whatever. Yeah, you're taking it back. Like, actually, I don't care anymore. Obviously, it's the host of city. Yeah, ask me the zip code next time, Jesus Christ. You were so excited when you thought it was Michelle. You found out his chance. You're like, whatever.

It was the fucking. It was stupid. Yeah, yeah. Nico, thanks so much for being on. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Tell people where they can find you, please. Yeah, you can find me. I'm on Instagram at Nico Carney.

I'm also on Substack, which is where I prefer. So check me out there. Do you know when this is coming out? I don't. I bet we know. But say whatever you need to say. Anyway, I'm on tour, so check me out on tour. Tickets at Nico Carney.com,

and I have a movie coming out in June called She's the He. Check that out, really funny, trans coming of age, high school movie. So check that out. Hell yeah. Yeah. We did it.